Kim Family Search in Rogue River Wilderness of Oregon 5
The Kim Family Search discussion started here now spans 5 pages of over 4500 comments.
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Kim Family Search in Oregon page ONE
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Kim Search page FIVE is right here.
ATTENTION
The new pictures from Galice and Bear Camp Road are up here:
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/
Questions for Kati Kim:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
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Yeah!! I am number 1!!
The Kim Family Search discussion now spans 5 pages of over 4500 comments.
You are on page 5 of the comments.
Oops, sorry Joe!!
Angela, I just wanted to say thank you..you made me cry!
JoCoSAR good job. A smooth transition …
Hey Madeline I’m moving your comment over here – we cross posted before:
Madeline wrote:
Hi Joe, we’re going to need that bar by the time this is over! I can see it now, “Joe Duck’s” would be an instant hit, you’d have people stopping in from far and wide, maps on every wall, etc.
Comment by Madeleine | December 30, 2006
It was mentioned this morning that helicopters were flying overhead and inferred (to my me, anyway) that the problem was the Kims were just not seen, obscured by the overgrowth, trees, … BUT Kati reported they heard only 2 helicopters all week, one of which she saw the Saturday James left the car, and the other they heard but did not see the day before when they burnt 4 tires.
7- that was a pretty isolated “hole” that they were parked in. Unless it was a recreational helicopter, none were in the air searching until Friday.
Kip – good job – was about to move your comment over but you did already. It’ll be deleted on earlier page.
Madeleine I moved your comment to this page and deleted from page 4, and thanks for coming to the digital “bar and grill”!
4 – You are most welcome, and I meant every word.
Just remembered a funny event about logging roads. There was a USFS employee in a truck out on the back logging roads, and there was a State employee & truck using the same roads to get into State land for work. They ran into each other – according to proceedure both had to call in and report the accident. Both agencies were required to send someone out to take a report (probably in quadruplicate or something). The back logging roads were so bad that the two responding ended up wrecking into each other! Fortunately they were all traveling slow enough that there were no injuries. Does go to show just how darned difficult these ‘spaghetti roads’ can be to travel on.
I’ll move my comment, Joe!
Joe – sorry we have become somewhat “high maintenance!” Bet you never expected…we love it when you are here though..I love the idea of “Joe Ducks!” Really, I would go..especially if you had really good barbeque!
1250- I agree tara, but I still think it would have been hard and intimidating for him to try to build a fire in such
a wet, and narrow canyon.
1260- I don’t think you’re being too sensitive – I just
thought it would be helpful to clarify those things. I
think it is heroic that are here, and that you seem to
care so much. You could easily just be cynical and try
to escape all this – but you are showing how dedicated
you really are to your work, and that you want to learn.
And all that says a lot for you.
Your last sentence is very interesting, and I guess once
again – we will have to wait till the 5th to hear you
talk more about that!
No problem JoCoSAR this is fun for me too. I should have done the new page last night late because now people still on page 4 have not seen my comment until they “refresh” the page, yet so they are posting away. It’ll work out soon.
oops!
I found you all
Thanks Lisa – you did the right thing. I’ve deleted my “copy” of your comment above.
we weren’t hiding!!
Joe, I know I speak for others when I say how much we appreciate all your work to keep this blog going and freely accessible. I have one suggestion, however. Could the comments be formatted to appear with the “comment by” name and the date up by the comment #, instead of at the end? In that way, we’d know right away who was “speaking” without having to check the end of each message. Is that easily changed in WordPress?
Tara- You’ve got mail
RRR good work unless you put a COMMENT on the last page
Ok! – I don’t know how to ‘refresh’ the page! I have tried
different buttons – none of them work. None say refresh,
etc. I have a 6 year-old laptop. If someone can help me
find a way to refresh – will I be able to keep whatever
text I am currently writing in the comment box?
f5 button
Also, while we are asking for possible changes, is there a way to put the time stamp with the date too?
joe- nope no comment on the other page
Sorry Joe, nothing like apologizing for being too high maintenance, and then asking for more!! What a dork I am..
23- RRR Thanks! It did remove the text in the comment
box, though. I did an experiment…!
(6) I think the idea of the bar and grill is just ducky!
27- Your welcome……I don’t believe there is a way to refresh without loosing your text because it refeshes the WHOLE page including the text box
(26) Do you want a second opinion?
no thanks glenn…you know how I feel about your opinion!!
I am glad you’re back…regardless!
(27),(29)…you can do the following to work-around the refresh issue.
Place your cursor in the text field where you are editting…press ctrl-a, ctrl-c. Ctrl-a will select all the text, ctrl-c will copy the text into the clipboard.
Press F5, to refresh…
Reposition your cursor in the text box and press ctrl-V. That will pasted the previously copied text from the clipboard back in the text box.
(31) yeah…that and a $1.50 will get me a cup of Dutch Bros…
Good morning all – THIS IS A REPOST FROM THE PREVIOUS PAGE, I WAS TYPING WHILE JOE WAS TYPING HIS WARNING:
RE: Starting fires – I don’t think unless you live in Oregon you can appreciate just how WET it gets around here. Remember that, prior to them getting lost, we had the wettest November ON RECORD in Portland. It was raining torrentially all through the Northwest over Thanksgiving. Someone trained in wilderness survival may have had luck, but it would be very challenging for your average city dweller. Also, James was wearing tennis shoes. It would make it difficult to get deep into the woods where it would be more likely to find some down, dry timber.
RE: 1204 -Re-reading post 848, I have trouble reconciling “simply wrong” on warning signs with reality as I know it. There is a large sign at Ray’s, right off I-5, there is another 5 miles down the road, well before you ever turn off Merlin/Galice Rd. I can’t speak to the 3rd and 4th signs as the Peavine route plays into that and am not sure where those signs are relative to that route (RRR – can you commnet ?), but if they stayed on Bear Camp, they passed 4 signs in total. At a minimum, they passed 2. I don’t think, by any means, that justifies Pacs ridiculous attacks, but there are warning signs prominently & frequently placed. Even in heavy rain at nighttime they are visible.
Lisa:
F5 is best for refresh if it works for you, otherwise you can “reload” from the browser toolbar “view” or right click and then “reload”.
Posting a comment reloads the page automatically, so for the hundreds (or thousands) or folks out there just looking in without commenting go ahead and … say something!
Ellen – Although it’s doable, and I agree that would be a better format, it would make this section inconsistent with too many other pages in this blog and other WordPress blogs so I want to leave it as now.
JoCoSAR – I’ll look into showing the timestamp of the posts – that won’t change the format much and it would be helpful.
33- Ah, yes! I see! Thanks glenn!
You know, when I first woke up this morning, I turned
on my laptop. I was wondering, ‘what’s happening on
the blog!’ Before I was even out of bed! It’s amazing
how addictive it can be!
37- So addicting you plan your day around it!!!!
I’ve noticed that most seem to think James slept (peacefully?) overnight at the location the 1st clothing articles were found. A depression in the ground was found at this point, apparently. I question this assumption. 1st, that location is not too far from the road. I’m guessing, but I would think he could have arrived at that point by early afternoon. If so, it wouldn’t be likely he would attempt to bed down for the night so early in the day. .. 2nd, the further James got down the drainage the more difficult the going would be. More and more he would, by necessity, be confined to use the creek to make headway. If that were the case he’d be getting wetter with each step. By nightfall he could have been soaked. No traces of any campfire were found. Doesn’t surprise me given the extreme wetness down there. To think that he could have survived even one night awake, or asleep, I’ve have difficulty accepting. Temperature freezing & he exhausted, hungry, worried, soaked. ?? If James did indeed survive that awful night he is even more of a superman than I thought.
(35) Good point about the local situation…I want to make a very important point. You never look for firewood on the ground – it will be soaked to the core and never burn.
I will make one more point…how many of you have gone out and cut down your own christmas trees? Now keep in mind that you spend a lot of time to pick the perfect looking healthy tree…right? How many christmas trees have you cut down that didn’t have dead branches on it?
In this type of situation you need to find the dead branches within the trees to get a fire started…even if the branches are wet (but dead) you can rub them with your seatbelt to remove the wet covering and get to dry dead wood that will burn.
(36) Also would suggest that cross reference post indicators are much easier to read in parens…
39 – KIP / I’ve wondered that too. It has been a while, but when you think back to the posts of the ex-military fellow relaying how he felt after a week with no food, it especially makes you wonder. Also makes you wonder where those 2 lighters are….in the gravel at the bottom of Big Windy ?
35- Paul, the warning signs are there – but the warnings
are to be unprofessional – wimpy and lame!
“Maybe Blocked – Snowdrifts Ahead” is vague, wimpy, and lame!
Maybe – Maybe not! How big? What time of the year is the road blocked? Where I grew up – most snowdrifts were not huge. I played in snowdrifts! To me snowdrifts do not
sound threatening!
Also in my life I have seen so many warning signs for
Rockslides – never seen one there!
Deer – sometimes, but mostly no.
The signs are inadequate warnings of the dangers ahead!
Wimpy – lame – insufficient, etc.!
Somewhere around here someone posted the locations of the warning signs on BC. I’m trying to find it, but if someone has the info it would save time.
(40) RE: Fires. Glenn’s bringing up something that has confused me all along and that is why more and a much bigger fire was not built by James both at the car (for signalling) and then down in the drainage for warmth. In fact I’m inclined to think like Kip that he did not survive the first night because it seems there would have been evidence of a fire or pieces of burned paper trying to start one.
Even in wet conditions you can get a fire going with matches or lighters, and if you get a big fire going you can pitch in fresh wood pulled off trees that will burn, especially if you dry it first around the bonfire. James had outdoor experience and wouldn’t he have known this approach?
45- From accounts I’ve read from friends – James loved
the outdoors! But he was not a wilderness expert or
aficionado! He loved to go camping!
Plus he was incredibly stressed, cold, and malnourished.
I bet he tried, but it seemed too hard.
I don’t think there’s anyway he made all that distance
Saturday.
re: Fires… Once a fire is big and hot enough it’ll consume almost anything combustible, even soaking wet rotten or green wood. The trick is to get it going really big and hot 1st. Then it is relatively easy to keep it burning, ongoing, if movable timber is available nearby. Gasoline from the Saab could have helped build such a fire.
I think that if for whatever reasons, it had been
easier for him to build a fire, he would have…
I don’t think it was an area where he had a lot of
knowledge or skill sets.
(45)(46) Yes I have wondered about that too. Even in the wetest conditions you can build a small fire on top of green logs but I guess a lot of people don’t know that unless you have been trained or had experience with klondike style camping.
Curious how we wasn’t found with lighters.
I think he made it two days for sure out there. Attitude and determination are huge factors in survival…James certain had those. After so many days without food, etc it is truly super human the effort he made. I am sure we was on a kind of auto-pilot with one goal and one goal only.
glenn I want to believe he was out there two days also, but the lighter thing keeps bugging me. I believe there would have been evidence of attempted fire if he’d been out there that long.
oh course, along that thinking we know he spent one night out there and they didnt find fire there….
but the missing lighters makes me think he attempted to use them and either couldnt and left them or lost them.
Im argueing with myself… sorry.
JoCoSAR …I’m having difficulty with your [1239] comment “I can tell you however, that from Friday on, there were helicopters overhead that would have seen ANY smoke from that area”
The Kims burnt 4 tires Friday. They heard 1 helicopter, it was somewhere in the distance. Certainly it (not they) wasn’t overhead. If any helicopter was even remotely nearby I’m sure Kati and James would have done anything and everything they could to attract its attention.
50- I believe that the first night he was away from the car he might not have slept and just pushed on threw the night hopeing to find help thinking he wasen’t all that far away so with pushing on threw the night he wouldn’t have had time to make a fire.
51 I don’t have an answer for that…I don’t suppose I have a basis for argument right now.
My purpose for mentioning the “hole” that they were in was to point out that they may not have heard all of the air activity unless is was very very close. When I was up there with helicopters overhead, standing outside my vehicle, even knowing that they were coming, I couldn’t hear them until they were in sight, almost directly overhead.
43 / Lisa: clearly the verbage on the signs needs re-working, the Kims are far from the 1st to misinterpret them. I just was addressing this statement: “Pac’s allegations that Kati and James ignored multiple warning signs are just simply wrong based upon what Kati has told me.” I am no fan of Pac. I realize the signs need re-working, but there are numerous signs and it’s not fair, IMO, to condemn BLM for that or imply – as that quote does – that there are NO signs. There are 4 of them.
I also think it is highly subjective as to the verbage being “wimpy and lame”…to me, the word “blocked” is pretty strong. There are exact mileage figures in conjuntion with the signs (I assume the miles to the summit). To me, those signs say, very precisely, that if you continue on this road you may find it impassable and potentially blocked by snow.
When you repeat that message 4 times, it should be weighed carefully before proceeding.
51 I don’t have an answer for that…I don’t suppose I have a basis for argument right now.
My purpose for mentioning the “hole” that they were in was to point out that they may not have heard all of the air activity unless is was very very close. When I was up there with helicopters overhead, standing outside my vehicle, even knowing that they were coming, I couldn’t hear them until they were in sight, almost directly overhead.
glenn & tara… has it been determined absolutely that James could not have possibly reached his final location in one day, given the nature of the terrain he was travelling, and the distance he traversed and the impossibility of travel at night?
I am having a real problem here with posting…I am trying to post in the 50′s, but they keep showing up in 20′s??? Way huge technical problem!!!
Anyone seeing my posting?? I Believe he walked threw the first night without stopping
Help us!! We are stuck in some BLOG loop
#43 / Lisa: clearly the verbage on the signs needs re-working, the Kims are far from the 1st to misinterpret them. I was addressing this statement: “Pac’s allegations that Kati and James ignored multiple warning signs are just simply wrong based upon what Kati has told me.” I am no fan of Pac. I realize the signs need re-working, but there are numerous signs and it’s not fair, IMO, to condemn BLM for that or imply – as that quote does – that there are no warning signs. There are 4 of them.
I also think it is highly subjective as to the verbage being “wimpy and lame”…to me, the word “blocked” is pretty strong, it means you can’t get through. There are exact mileage figures in conjuntion with the signs (I assume the miles to the summit). To me, those signs say, very precisely, that if you continue on this road you MAY (not will, which is a problem) find it impassable and blocked by snow.
When you repeat that message 4 times, it should be weighed carefully before proceeding. Perhaps they did, decided to procede anyway, and then got lost.
The questions I wonder about the most are those we’ll never
know the answers to, and that’s what James really did in
that canyon. I really wish we could know more of a timeline.
All we really know is the distance he covered.
I think the part about only finding one sleeping indentation
is not the only possibilty. I have had hypothermia, and if
I felt the need to sleep in a cold wet canyon, I would have leaned against something in a squatting position.
JoCoSAR and RRR, if you’re still there – the hotspot that
was found Monday night that they thought could be James – was that where they found part of a trail on Tuesday?
OK something very very strange is happening JOE ARE YOU AROUND??
Somehow, one of my posts got duped, in different places with slightly different content. I have no idea how that happened. Apologies, not trying to belabor a subject.
45- No the hot spot was not on the trail
Whats wrong with the blog?
my posts are showing up in earlier numbers.
Something very strange is going on with posts…out of order, preceding proper placement, getting duped….JOE ??????
Joe Joe!! whats happening?
Paul, Joco, RRR, we’re all looping strangely
Yes we see that any suggestions…I believe JoCo emailed Joe hopefully he is around and can fix it
this is so strange.
perhaps itll start posting from the 60s in order?
61- And it only seems to be us that this is happening too
ooooo.. what if everyone else is still posting normally and we’re stuck here forever? This stinks.
still there RRR?
64- that would drive me crazy………..Looks as if no one else is noticing we are in a loop either
Maybe if we keep posting blogs it will push us back down to the end…..
I think Ive lost everyone now. HELLLLLOOOOO?
72- Tara I see you
oh I saw that post RRR
will this us down the numbers?
push
Glenn why are you confident James was out for two days? Distance supports 2 days based on very tough going in the Canyon. Hiking on a road, when motivated even if you are weak, tends to go fast.
74- Its hard to see if since they all get mixed in to the mingle with the other blogs, but do you see that either no one else is posting or that it is just us….
i IMed Glenn…. hang on…
RRR / Tara: I’m here…something very strange going on. Are we the only ones affected ?
glenn trying something
80- Yes Paul I see you and yes it seems to be only us I have closed my window and reopened nothing is helping
glenn cant get to the blog
While we are in this crazy loop thing Tara you have mail
still here? paul. joco. rrr. ??
yes i still here JoCo is doing dishes
hello?
We are calling Joe on his phone…he’s not answering….
Very odd – nope, not just you guys stuck in the weird posting loop. Looks like all comments are hitting in the MIDDLE of the numbers. Strange. Anyway, hello!
we need a virtual internet SAR. We’re lost and stuck.
maggie. hi
TEST. I want to see if this will post below #96.
WE ARE STUCK IN THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!! Help us Joe.
RRR read it. Will email shortly. Glenns Iming. this is way to multitasky for me.
we are on the phone with Joe…
Maybe if we all yell at joe real loud. Hi ellen
JoCo / RRR / Tara: launch a Joe Duck SAR ! (that cracks me up)
I just spoke with Joe and he is working on it right now he believes that something may have gone wrong with the page and may have to open a new one up
Paul whatever you did skipped a number…
Testing….
I think I hear helicopters!
boy oh boy Joe…we are glad that you are here!!!
testing 2
Have Joe delete all the stuff that is about the problem once he gets it cleared up.
joe duck to the rescue.
we have all just totally freaked out as if our entire blog lives were coming to an end…see, we are high maintenance!!
testing 3
joe… testing away.
Joe Duck has officially joined SAR efforts to recover Paul, Tara, JoCo, RRR & Glenn, who are wondering aimlessly all over the internet trying to find their way back to their proper order.
Hey joe, should we all just shut up for a minute and let you work?? Does the activity screw you up??
OK well we all have found ourselves its everyone else who isn’t posting we should go look for
Glenn says WordPress is freaking out
Thats funny. Who’s lost here? us or them??
Whoa – I’m noticing! Talk about disorienting!
my mom always said “next time I take you somewhere, I’m gonna leave you home!”
test 4
Hello ?…is anyone out there ? I’m trapped in an endless loop!
last post just disappeared
OK, got it figured out I think…..OK to keep posting… it was a time stamp issue.
great JoCO…!!!!
See, this is why if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it… I’ll live without time stamps if all that never happens again. That was icky.
Ladies and Gentleman !
I don’t know if the order stayed intact but we should be OK though I won’t know until more comments come in.
Can we blame that one on JoCo??
hey, wait a minute!!! He said it was a great idea!!!
Thank you Joe!
I am back in order!!!!!
(77) Because SAR has reported they found a “camp-site” where it looks like he slept. He would not have been able to move around in the dark. I think he got up on Sunday and moved down the creek. When he go to that point and saw it was virtually impossible to continue – I think it overwhelmed him and he died right there in his tracks. He was dead before he hit the water. Morbid but what I think happened.
I’ll take some blame, since I gave her the idea to suggest “improvements.” Sorry!
WE LOVE YOU JOE!!!! THANK YOU!!!!
sheesh…
Not JoCo’s fault, Joe Duck’s fault. I was trying to mess with time stamping and wound up correcting the clock. Some of the comments came in with “wrong” time stamps. WordPress uses that to decide who to put first.
glenn?
No more improving allowed on the blog
Just kidding, they were good ideas.
so, this is all fine for those of us who have been here through it..it’s gonna be a problem for newcomers!!! What a mess we made!!!!
Thanks RRR! If I ever open the Rogue River Bar and Grill it’s free beers and BBQ for everybody here!
So, stupid question department again…are you gonna be able to put them back into order?
why did that incite panic for me????
115 – Glenn, the thing that puzzles me still (perhaps answered long ago but I missed it) is why the initial reports of James’ recovery said he’d been alive until “just hours” before found? What led to those media reports? I know the autopsy was inconclusive due to his exposure to the elements, but it sounded as if help had been so tantalizingly close. Perhaps the irony of him being found relatively close to where he might have been seen made it seem more dramatic in the stories.
I say we call a lunch break…..NO ONE TALKS for the next hour and half and let Joe get eveything back in order and working properly and the rest of us can take a break from here without having an anxity attack of thinking we might miss something any seconds???
I need to get out more.
funny. how many people left and how many are sitting here watching the same page? Okay. Ill be quiet now.
JoCoSAR I’m checking on that now but probably not without risking even more trouble.
If *after this comment* people are having problems getting comments to appear go ahead and email me: jhunkins@gmail.com
Tara – did I lose your comment? Sorry
(138) Joe at the same time…Verizon fiber just took a hit. Probably all the video feeds today and SoDamned Insane.
The http stack was out of commission. I had to remote in to one of my servers on a completely different backbone to access a browser and get here…LOL
Verizon seems to be back running smoothly now.
oh no!! don’t fix something on my account again!!! I will be truly hated!! That was hilarious!!
Yay! Thanks Joe!
I wanted to repost this because I think it might
have gotten lost in the blogosphere spininings…
The questions I wonder about the most are those we’ll never
know the answers to, and that’s what James really did in
that canyon. I really wish we could know more of a timeline.
All we really know is the distance he covered.
I think the part about only finding one sleeping indentation
is not the only possibilty. I have had hypothermia, and if
I felt the need to sleep in a cold wet canyon, I would have leaned against something in a squatting position – like a
tree or a rock – with my backpack and maybe some clothing behind me to soften it up.
JoCoSAR and RRR, if you’re still there – the hotspot that
was found Monday night that they thought could be James – was that where they found part of a trail on Tuesday?
Im just glad I had company in the ruckous
(145) My guess is that Jame’s body was no longer in a state of R.M. Since he was flacid it was probably assumed that he had just died.
152- No the hot spot was not on the trail
51 (or whatever number asking) I don’t have an answer for that…I don’t suppose I have a basis for argument right now.
My purpose for mentioning the “hole” that they were in was to point out that they may not have heard all of the air activity unless is was very very close. When I was up there with helicopters overhead, standing outside my vehicle, even knowing that they were coming, I couldn’t hear them until they were in sight, almost directly overhead
I will have an explanation for 145-115 next week…I think!
ok, so despite our desire to stay here and continue this outrageous blogging…RRR and myself are going grocery shopping…
We have been here and not there for far too long now!! Real life has to continue somehow…(how did that sound? if I say it enough to myself…)
Seems as though real life has been so long ago…search, surgery, now this. Wonder if it will ever be the way it was for me personally??
Re: 1204 Coordination of private search efforts
The official response will undoubtedly be that private search efforts should only start up after the official search has been called off and that all prior private search resources should be under the control of the official search coordinator. Officials never like outsiders coming in at all and look at how the information from the cell phone engineer was mishandled and misunderstood.
If the Kims burned tires at night for heat, I would fault them for wasting the primary resource available to them: smoke. I do not know if there were any boughs nearby that were dry enough to burn even if they also produced a great deal of smoke.
There were several problems involving timing: they did not know when people would start to miss them. A hotel ‘no show’ even one who called and specifically asked for the key to be left out is generally NOT going to trigger a search effort or even a ‘welfare check’ telephone call. Someone would have to see the smoke who was not out looking for them and few motorists would really be out in that area in that weather even if they knew the local roads and knew which ones to stay on in order to get to the coast. It may be that the Kims did not think to spread engine oil on the tires first. It may also be that they did not consider burning three tires in one great big smoke column but felt their chances would be better to burn them serially and so prolong both the signal value and the heat factor.
Decisions to leave the vehicle and the final decision to leave the road perhaps to get to the stream and make ‘better progress’ were made after several days of no food and unwise use of body heat to melt snow.
[155] … RRR.. are you saying there was a walkable trail all the way down to the point James was found?
152- addition
I would have leaned against something and and huddled to stay more warm and dry (wet cold ground – even with some clothing backpack on it etc. would be very, very cold) I would go for the sitting position.
And not a lot of areas of clear flat ground anyway, so it
would be a logical choice.
Also, when I got deeper into hypothermia, I was so cold -
and uncomfortable that I couldn’t sleep – my body couldn’t
relax properly so that I could really sleep.
I agree that he may even have tried to stay on the move
as much as possible in the dark to try to stay warm.
[128] … Maggie..”See, this is why if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”
was my 1st thot too! how many times I’ve done that, still do that!!
Sorry but it’s not looking good for properly ordering the comments above. I’m going to go in and change some times on comments but not sure that’ll do it.
Also note that normal blog convention is to say the person’s NAME if you are replying to what they said, this makes it fairly easy to follow conversation threads even if number is not there.
I’m in Medford now, our trip down here yesterday was uneventful on Hwy 38. The daughter, grandson, and son-in-law are great. I’ll never be able to catch up on here while I’m here, too much a full time job to catch up.
158) JOCO: Life will be the same, or at least peaceful, eventually.
Joe,
Now’s the time for your Bar – if we had a few martini’s right now we really wouldn’t care what order the previous posts are in . . .
Thanks for the directions on name – we could start including name and post number to leave our trail of crumbs . . . Thanks for the rescue!!
[168] .. Angela “to leave our trail of crumbs” LOL !
Somebody give me an update in one paragraph of last 24 hours.
(170) DH, the shortest version – we played with maps and learned about the Peavine route possibility, discussed more about sunk-cost and it’s origins vs. just got screwed on a wrong turn, experimented with German/Japanese phrases, discussed the GIS/mapping stuff as it relates to Josephine Count and resources, discussed how many nights James likely made it (did not have 2 lighters when found), how to still make a fire/smoke signal with wet wood, and some other stuff (I know I missed a bunch). How’s that?
(170) A lot happened.
48- Paul – first I hope you know by now that sometimes
just because I feel strongly about something – it has
nothing to do with anything personal to you or anyone else
for that matter!
All Kati’s Dad was refuting was that they didn’t “purposefully” ignore the signs.
Reading signs is always subjective, that’s why the
point is to make them so strong and clear in a truly
potentially dangerous situation.
People don’t drive by and say, “Hmmmm… Let me read this
sign in an objective manner…”
The word ‘Blocked’ may be a strong word, but the words
‘May Be’ are not. I have seen lots of signs that say ‘Rocklides’ – also a strong word, and that does not always mean there are rock slides present. I don’t turn around because I see a sign that says ‘Rockslides’.
The signs are not strong enough, period. 50% of the SAR
cases they do each winter are tourists trying to get to
the coast. That percentage is too high.
171)Maggie. Thanks Maggie, great. Why is you know who back in here posting again? (J)
D.H. Welcome to Southern Oregon! Your family is going to think it’s funny when you keep borrowing their computer to check in!
Angela – Hey, I will serve virtual drinks so people can be virtual drunks yet still drive home from their keyboards.
(175) keyboard is one thing…the mouse is where all the accidents happen though.
Joe (175)
Great idea for virtual drinks – you could even deliver them in an animated version of the old fasioned SAR tool – St. Bernard with drinks on the collar!!
175- I think you should have virtual beds so we can
virtually sleep and take naps when we need them!
Maggie- I think that was a great summary! Id even forgotten some of that!
174 & 180 DH & Tara, I know I missed a lot, but I was too lazy to go look back. Oh, and I did forget that there was all the crazy posting problems above where much got screwed up. Now you are somewhat up to date DH
I’m walking away for a bit, so when I come back I might need a summary if you people get crazy again.
175 / Joe: so it looks like we are ok now ? I stayed away for a while so you could work in peace….but, hey, if you are buying, I’ll take a virtual Kamikazee on the rocks.
171 / Maggie: you should work for Reader’s Digest Condensed Book Club ! – nicely done.
175)Joe – actually, they EXPECT me to be on their computer. I had been better about that the past year or two tho. Oh well, back at my addiction again…
We drove on 38 then down I5 past the Merlin exit, it was eerie. The freeway signs don’t say route to the coast, that’s for sure. Even by the freeway, the hills around the area are very steep, thus the name of the town “Canyonville”… where there is a casino lit up like a circus with a big truck stop style gas station. And a motel to stay in.
Paul I think we are OK and back in sequence except for several in the middle there. I’m not deleting them because then even more numbers won’t work, though I may erase some of them later.
Here’s the Kamikaze – it’s on the house:
http://www.tecfood.cz/UserFiles/Image/2006/drink_08.jpg
I show up and the place slows down, no wonder I post like no one’s listening and admit I sleep on my office floor!
Fools Gold – this post is directed to your suggestion on the last page about volunteers (and not so volunteers like youth offenders) doing some data collection in the woods.
I was wondering if you could expand on this idea a little more. I think I follow you. It sounds like your talking about a very low-tech kind of geocoding (not one based on strict addressing and naming conventions, but just a searcher saying, hey guys I searched up until the red bird house on logging road 16 today) and then having someone log that for that night in the gis system.
Am I right there? Beacause gecoding usually relies on strict address matching, but your idea could work given the volunteers your talking about would simply have to walk around with a gps and get coordinates (no attribute data entry really, and little qa/qc by higher staff).
If it got more serious than that…I wouldn’t want any youth offenders doing the data collection!
But I would like to hear more about your suggestion and maybe this falls under an earlier question by RRR and JoCo if it would be worthwhile to gps the logging roads…sounds like they have that info already, but may benefit from gpsing some landmarks a long those roads for a rough sort of geocoding process.
do I follow you right?
joe, I would travel to orgon for your bar and grill, its hard to find such good clientele in my neighborhood! Though I could see us regulars hovering over a map and then pac walks in and the tumbleweeds scatter, and then glenn walks in the others side….there could be some good brawls, it could be very exciting actually, but could ultimatley end up closed by the sherriff.
I’d still go.
Mapper, do you or anyone know if there are mile markers on the logging roads? I’m guessing not. Ideally there would be markers with the road name/code included along with the mileage marker. From what I’ve seen on the map, however, it would be a huge undertaking to mark those roads.
Angela re: St Barnard – I like that idea. Maybe at the DangerData blog we’ll have a “chat room” like that for the less serious conversations.
I’m still having trouble deciding on the best format for the two things you we’ll want to do which is collect valuable info and ideas *plus* provide a friendly environment where people will participate.
My personal feeling is that Forums don’t do either very well. Blogs like this are not made for “chatting” but you can get by OK as people have done so far.
OK I’m gone for awhile, so nobody mess anything up or be mean to others or hit their dog or ….. OK?
If Joe served Espresso-tini’s I’d be there (one track mind that I have). Mapper that was a funny description of how it would be – so true!
189/Joe – Well, I can guess that if RRR were on right now there would be a counter-suggestion to just all gather on the deck at the resort in Galice overlooking the Rogue, but after checking out the ample portion of virtual Kamikazee you sent, I think Joe’s Bar and Grill on Bear Camp Summit (only open in summer) sounds good.
Madeleine…my guess is no.
If it is no….it would be great if along with “you are here maps” maybe someone could install some kind of inexpensive marking system, much like mile markers, as this would help people, searchers, and geocoding processes tremendously.
I do not know if anything like this is in place, much to think about.
(193) Mapper, the “you are here” maps haven’t been mentioned in awhile – those really, really are one of the best ideas in my opinion. Any FS roads I’ve ever been on have been barely marked, if at all. Even if I’d had a cell signal and could have called someone, it would have been useless to describe where I was beyond “I see trees. Lots of trees. And I think I turned left before I got all twisted around.” Even just a few of the right kind of markings would be a good thing, I think.
Maggie,
yes the “you are here maps” are one of the best in my opinion also. I was talking about them constantly for awhile, but I guess with all the newcomers, new pages, etc. it doesn’t hurt to throw that out there again! Maybe Joco and RRR with their position could bring this up at a meeting with USFS if they ever meet together?
Mapper, GeoCoding:
I was suggesting the use of numerous but admitedly less-experienced volunteers for a massive data acquisition project that would take pleace under non-emergency conditions prior to a search.
This would allow SAR people to have GPS annotated maps and search logs. Consider perhaps the man who reported he traveled one road until the snow gave out and he hit bare ground. Well, no one knows where that is on a map and he was probably without a GPS unit but if he is able to say that it was ‘about half a mile past a creek crossing the road at a guard rail’ such prior geocoding of creeks, roads, guardrails, drainpipes, firebreaks and directional signs might help SAR personnel to always have a more precise view of what has been searched and what has not been searched. A boy scout troop with no knowledge of ArcInfo can still gather a good deal of helpful information without use of public funds for trained GIS specialists.
yes, I was following you. sounds good to me.
and when people say, well what could they have done in the middle of the night? well, in my opinion, the gis people are great to be in the center, getting the last reports for the day, and using the info to prepare new maps for the next day.
The “you are here” idea sounds great. Is this map on a wood sign or is this something where some can take a free map. Who would keep the latter stocked up? The former sounds good to me, if, they are located all over the place.
dkf747
yes, we were talking about this a bit more in the earlier pages. I envisioned just a sort of wooden structure, holding a large 3×4 foot map (or so, but large) under some pretty good encasing to keep vandals out. Just a good USFS map, with a nice low tech sticker dot on it saying “you are here”
this would help a lost person temendously, and could prevent someone from getting lost. and its really not expensive. in fact, make those young offenders build the structure!!
Suggestion: Whenever we come upon a “you are here” map or some other information kiosk where take-away copies aren’t available, we take a picture of it with a digital camera. We can then “read” the map off the back of the camera as we go along. Not everyone has a digital camera with them when they get lost, but many do and might not think of using it as an option. So it might be worth posting that as a suggestion on the kiosk itself.
Ellen thats a great idea and I never would have thought of that!
That really is a good idea, Ellen!
201 A cell phone camera with a good screen might give a better picture than a tiny digitaL camera screen.
It has quieted down a lot. The last few times that has happened something momentous has come along…JoCoSar…RRR…Kati’s dad…will there be another catalyst ?
Paul, you just never know around here.
I actually kind of get a sense of anticipation when it gets quiet because it has never lasted for very long. Maggie, I can’t help after last night commenting how much Maggie is close to Mapper. You put forth quite the effort last night, I was impressed.
205- Well here I am!
Off to the grocery…now watch, after saying that (205) and going away for a bit, I’m going to come back to a smouldering laptop, 300 new posts, and some new guest that will shake things up again.
162- No there was not a “trail” that you could walk on it wsa all bush cutting thick yucky terrain……I use the word “trail” as a generic word for the path James traveled
208 – was hoping for something truly new…no disrespect intended…but good comeback…impeccible timing too.
Hello there…anyone remember my thoughts on “overwhelming?” Well..I am here to remind you that the weekend after xmas at Walmart is just simply WRONG!!!!!!!
211- Sorry I can’t really demonstrate my little “I am baaaaaack” dance on the screen
Good God JoCo thanks for the reminder, I was just about to leave and include some shopping into my time out. no thanks!
I am leaving for awhile, but I think the things fools gold brought up are very worthwhile taking some time to mull over and talking over with your gis people to see if this is something already in the works, or could be done with some volunteers. just a thought.
and maybe the you are here maps, if you have any kind of pull with the usfs people.
haha. I hope I dont sound like I am giving you tasks, I dont mean it like that.
Well yet again the press prints the Kim story, in our local Daily Courier paper AKA Daily Discourager, the news room staff have voted the “KIM STORY” to be the number one story for the 2006 year……
mapper – I already told you that I am here to learn…I will not only take suggestions, but take “tasks” the best that I can. Thank you. I will have to read up on fools gold suggestion a little bit more! I was just scanning trying to catch up…
210- RRR, if you’re still here – do you know where the
hot spot they found on Monday night that could have been
James was in relation to the trail of clothes they found
on Tuesday?
216 – Haven’t left quite yet, why is that paper no available online ??…this is the 21st Century last time I checked.
211 – I can only imagine.
212 – I would include almost ANY retail outlet after X-mas, but that could be cause I’m a guy.
Susan has not been around for a while. I wonder if she has heard anything from Peter S at the Boregonian ? Do you two (JoCo/RRR) have any sense of how much of the 2 investigations will see the light of day and full public disclosure ??
218- The relation of the “hot spot” and the trail clothes were on opposite sites of the creek……
220 – Correct me if I am wrong, that hot spot could be any reasonably sized mammal ?…a deer or a bear for instance ?
219- I don’t know what that particular paper is not online….to keep their subscribtions up to par I dunno its not a paper worth having in my opinion…
212- I don’t know what will be disclosed…….your guess is as good as mine
221- You are correct
211- p.s. Paul – It’s some Mel Gibson movie vs. President
Ford’s funeral vs. Ferris Buellers Day Off (sp?) on tv.
That’s some competition! I love FB’s Day Off – but I have
seen it more than once, and it’s almost over…
213- That would be fun to see your dance!
224 – I’m just waiting for the annual New Years Twilight Zone Marathon to start.
Well, see you after grocery shopping. I think it is a ladies club only at the moment.
220- was the trail of clothes kind of directly across the
creek from the hot spot?
226- I am unable to asnwer that
226 – Does that technology have that kind of exactness ?
227- will that come out in the report?
229- I dunno as I stated before your guess will be as good as mine as to what will be revieled.
If you all want to you can go back and look at the press interview with Lt Hastings where he has all the maps, it would give you an idea of the hot spots and clothes found…..
229- the reason why I ask is because I heard it on the
news that when they went to investigate the smaller of the
two hot spots on Monday night – the one that ‘could’ have
been James – they found the trail of clothes.
232- I believe that it could have be WHILE they were on thier way to look at the hot spot…..
231- unfortunately I can’t look at at lot of video like
that because I have dial-up and it’s really, really slow.
232- ok thanks! what would be the best way to look at that
press interview if I wanted to try it?
234-Good to know Dial up works on here i have it at work and I have been hesitant to go cause I didn’t want to miss anything here (he he he he)
Lisa email me- RogueRiverRat78@excite.com
Mapper, I recall a posting on another site, and I think I saw it quoted here, from a person who had been lost in the same area as the Kims. They said there was a wooden “you are here” sign at the summit, but that it bore no relationship to the map they had, the roads didn’t look anything the same. Any such sign would have resemble maps the person was likely to have, since you can’t take the sign with you for reference.
There used to be one up there on a different set of roads off of BC. It was only there for the detour though…
It wouldn’t have replicated the map, it was only to help you get through the detour. I think that I posted the detour instructions last night when maggie was trying to retrace map. That was a while ago. Don’t think that map is even there anymore. There was a matching you are here map at the bottom of the Peavine road too, I know for sure that one is gone now…
Thanks, JoCo. The sheer number of roads would make it really tough for a comprehensive “you are here” map. Similarly, it’s not likely that anyone would want to fund a bunch of call boxes up there scattered on the roads.
[210] .. RRR… thanx for responding. in fact as soon as I hit the send button I asked myself why I was asking the [162] trail question, because I knew what you meant, probably.
another question: can you describe a bit the terrain and the difficulty of hiking from the road down to the depression spot where it has been assumed James bedded down for the night? could he have made good time or was it real hard slogging? also was he following a running stream that 1st leg down the drainage?
All I seem to have time to do here in Medford is LURK… it’s irritating. I’m not a natural watcher… just thought I’d check in to say hi. I am however feeling strangely “drawn” to the Merlin/Galice area right now. I should drag my son in law over there.
Oh yeah, talked to my son-in-law, both he and my daughter have driven Bear Camp to pick up a raft. My son in law all his life, my daughter I think once with a trailer on the back. My son-in-law knows the Galice resort, that’s for sure.
Madeleine
A lot can be done on a 3×4 foot map, and the USFS (probably the one joco used in the search) would probably do it. It would be different than the ODOT map and it has to be. The odot map cannot have the kind of detail that the area needs. It would not match the road map unless the travellers had called ahead or gotten a map from the usfs before visiting the area.
does that make sense?
I had also read about the wood carving….that wont quite cut it, no
This is why the ODOT map also needs, if they are going to have bear camp on the map, an inset that says, “contact usfs for a more detiailed map”
All – I just wrote, but haven’t yet sent, an e-mail to the America’s Most Wanted show. I’m thinking they must have a fairly good system for triage when the calls pour in, and they also must have a some software or a special data base for handling the data they collect. Think it’s worth a try?
Wow, Madeleine, I do think that’s a very good idea. There really does need to be a way of sorting through tons of tips that helps ensure that none of the “good” ones get lost in the shuffle. I have no idea how that works, but I bet they do.
242- I can’t answer questions about the drainage that he followed from the road, simply because I wasen’t in that area at all…However I can tell you in general about the terrain of the area……STEEP, heavly wooded, some shail, damp moss covered, lots of down shrub to cut threw, traveling was not easy in this area, I would say it was kinda take one step fall back 3….
248- Just and example in one area we had a “ROAD” searcher go just a big off the road to look at something and they were UNABLE to come back up the side because of the terrain….
Madeleine – I love that idea about AMW!!! That is really cool thinking! See, that is what I love about this place! I would have never thought of that! I hope that they answer!
Warning Signs – just thinking: Has our litigious society created an environment of ubiquitious warnings to the point that we have become immune to even seeing them? It seems that absolutely everything has multiple warnings – often against such totally obvious misuse that it’s to the point of riduculous. Add to that the multitude of advertising signage and flashing neons it leads to overwhelm.
How can signage be added that is
1)”In your face – unavoidable”;
2) cost effective;
3) vandalism resistant;
4) still allow access (for winter sports, etc.)
5)all while Dire enough to get through our overwhelmed brains?
Mapper – I wonder if one was to put up a sign/map like the one you talk about, if someone got lost and said that they were following the map, if there would be any sort of liability for the person or agency who put up the map and highlighted the routes?
JoCo (251-252) LOL
Add to 252 and #6 – and a liability disclaimer
(253)
OO0PS – I meant add to post # 251 that the sign also has to have room for a liability disclaimer . . .
Ok, so if we were able to scan some articles, is there anyone here that has somewhere that they could be posted?
JoCo, as images, yes. I could put them in my Photobucket as I’ve done with some of the other images and post the link.
I have a website I could post it to. I’ll send you my email address and I can get it posted with a link.
Later, we could have Joe add it to this site if we choose.
Or, you could do the same at Photobucket if you create a free account.
True, Angela, many of us have websites, too, if you wanted to go that route.
Hi Folks just checking in but cannot stay. JoCo if you scan in a news article I can post it later – by 8pm – if you can email me the image, but I can’t stay right now.
Hi Joe! Bye Joe! That’s probably the best solution right there, JoCo.
Ok we will get ya something….Looking threw them now
Actually photobucket or (my preference) Flickr.com – both are easy to use and setup accounts. Then you just link to the URL in your account. But note that way can compromise your identity if you post other pix.
Cool – just email them to me and I’ll get them up by this evening…
Now it’s dinner time when I’m not allowed to keep the laptop on the table!!?
Good to see you are still being kept in line, Joe. It sounds like lots of us are kind of in that same intervention boat. Enjoy your dinner (I’ll be driving thru for mine in a bit and eating it in front of my keyboard – yep, pathetic).
hi guys, I am kinda not paying full attention, but yes it is standard practice to put a disclaimer on maps and most agencies including usfs people and joco gis people are probably fully aware of this.
joco I assume it would fall under the usfs or blm responsibility to put up these kinds of signs. But if joco were to take on this sort of responsibility I could send you examples of good disclaimers, though I bet its already in the fine print of the stuff your gis people already do. Its a funny thing, one of the things I never noticed before going into cartography, but if you look closely most maps have a disclaimer on them.
Maggie? Do you have time to talk further about the “alternate route” you posted — was it yesterday? — on Google Earth? I have some questions I’d like to ask you.
Ok, so after all of the offers of posting, we can’t find the article in the box of saved papers…darnit!!! We will keep looking. It was a BCR article with a photo of the sign at the base. I guess we could have driven out there and taken a new one in that amount of time!
Hi Ellen, I’m still here. Fire away.
Well, I’m just curious what you think is there most likely route? The white one? Looking at the photos I’ve seen of the site where the car was recovered, it certainly appears that that is the way in which the car was headed.
Ellen – remember that they said that they had gotten unstuck and then turned the car around?
Where would they have turned around? I’m looking at the photos here — http://www.layoutscene.com/james-kim-path/index.html (scroll down to see the photo) — and trying to understand it all.
(271) Ellen, If I had to guess, I’d say most likely they went as it’s been shown on all of the other maps in the media (which didn’t really show how they went before they got to that “fork” off of Bear Camp Road – so the Peavine route by JoCo and River was really interesting). What I have tried to say everywhere possible whenever I have shared what I traced in white is that it truly is just simply another way to get there. I have no reason to think that’s the way they went. In fact, the elevations are higher on that alternate route, so it sounds like it is actually unlikely. I, too, was curious that in the pictures I’ve seen, it really does look like the car is facing as if it came up the way I traced but doubt they took. I’ve heard in some places that they were able to turn the car around before stopping that night, so that’s a possibility. What I did not trace are a few more ways to get to that exact same spot. Maybe I will just to see.
In a nutshell, I am inclined to believe their path is probably exactly how it’s been shown in the media, but I thought Google Earth was cool and decided to play around just to see if it could be any other way. And it could be, but I have no reason to think it was.
(273) To me it looks like there is a fair amount of room right there to have turned around since it’s almost like a 3-way intersection of sorts.
But don’t you think it possible that the media (and others) have just traced that one route (the green one on your Google Earth file) because of the MISTAKE that was made earlier on by the officials in locating the car? Oh… they weren’t HERE, they were all the way up HERE, so we’ll just keep connecting these dots. But it may have been that they went your way (or some other way) after all. Right?
(276) Maybe. I don’t know how we would ever know because even if Kati’s memory is very sharp, if they were very lost I don’t know that she would have an answer. The difference in elevation between the white “alternate” route I drew compared to the one I drew in green based on what we’ve seen is pretty significant, especially on a night when it was snowing. But yes, I can see what you mean, how since they already had drawn to the incorrect position they may only have extrapolated from that assuming that the Kim’s had just gone further instead of that they went differently. Hard to say.
Do you want me to explain why the car was first plotted in the wrong position?
It’s time for me to drive thru somewhere so that I can come back and sit in front of my keyboard for the rest of the night. I’m so lucky to have the kind of man I do who hasn’t given me much of a hard time (well, he has made some faces at me, but then for lunch he brought me a sandwich…). Please hold off on anything I wouldn’t want to miss while I’m gone…
OK, like that one. Darn. OK, I’m staying for a minute. Sheesh. Yes, JoCo, please do enlighten!
does anyone know who did the offical drawing, or had the final say in the route?
I havn’t really been paying attention to this part since I have other parts of the case that interest me, but this particular question, of who had the final say or did the drawing is a good question.
I was just interested to ask because I’ve been so interested to play with Google Earth and to try to consider what might have been in James’s plan. If he was just trying to get down to the river, there were other drainages that he passed that would have gotten him there more quickly. Even had he taken the “white route” as he headed back on foot, he could have entered the Big Windy drainage sooner. As you say, we may never know, but it’s just so interesting to consider.
Kati’s story, when she tells it, will certainly shed light on it. And the reports next week might help our understanding as well. It’s just hard to stop wondering.
But — for my own part — I certainly think that the misplaced location of the car has something to do with the “common wisdom” thinking that that was the route the Kims took.
hahahah maggie, I am sitting in a coffee shop, when I said I was going out I meant it..but here I am again!
Well I am guilty of logging on to see what people were saying while JoCo and I were in Wal-mart today…..
joco..I do have a feeling you can shed some light here!
280- She will do so typing away now as you wait…..
(282) Ellen, it is interesting, for certain. Maybe I’m wrong and Kati would somehow remember – I’d just be pretty surprised considering how dark and how lost. But maybe. I agree that anything is possible.
(283) Mapper, I miss my laptop that died while back…
While I too doubt that Kati will be able to recite the “turn by turn” experience of getting lost, I have a certainty that she’ll remember more of what she and James discussed about where they THOUGHT they were and about what the plan should be for him to seek help.
Maggie that is terrible. I do love my laptop….but I am officially working right now (I have two jobs can you tell!?) but I am working remotley, on some side work. The laptop is great for the work I do, but I can’t help but keep checking on joe’s forum! I have convinced myself this is keeping my mind sharp, good excuse eh?
Very true, Ellen. I think you are correct about that since it does sound like James and Kati discussed that at length.
(289)
Ok..so imagine that you’re at the command post…word arrives that the car and the girls have been found. Footprints were followed in the direction of the car toward the Big Windy drainage and over the side. The girls are picked up by helicopter at the car. All search efforts and attention are now at the drainage. It took a very long time for someone to get coordinates of where the vehicle was. Someone from the search finally (2 1/2 hrs later) came in and pointed at the original location on the map. That is where GIS put the vehicle. For two days, searchers were sent to the field to monitor roadways from the intersection to the vehicle. Nobody ever came back and said it was different. When we finally obtained the correct coordinates, it was corrected. The fact is, it didn’t matter. The search was never from the car, it was from the top of the drainage. To the management team, the exact car location was only a curiosity, not an important detail in the search for James. It was after the search was over, and paperwork was gone through that the location was corrected. Clues were left along that route by James from the car to the drainage. It is only my personal opinion that he would have walked out the same way that he drove in. I hope that clears that up.
(292) Thank you, JoCo. That does make sense. I agree that James was more likely to have left the car they way they came.
I’ll ponder this while I drive, but if I do not feed my man now, he may never fix me another sandwich in front of the keyboard (that would be bad), so I’ll have to go and come back shortly.
JoSoCAR
I guess my question is (and by the way in the prehistoric days of our posting here, I defended that whole car locatoin thing and the coordinates!:)
Do you know how we have come to an official “route” that they took? or who the person is that determined the route?
JoCoSAR, that absolutely clears things up. I wasn’t thinking of it from the point of view of the timing of the rescue (which you, of course, would). I was only trying to think of it from the point of view of James and Kati. Where were they, how did they get there, where did they THINK they were, and what was the strategy for James to get help.
How confident are you that James entered the drainage at that particular spot (and not higher up)?
Mapper – Ummmm…I guess that we wait for Kati??
Otherwise, I suppose we just come to the conclusion that it really doesn’t matter (except in our sick and twisted over focused minds)?
I am 99.9% confident that is where he entered the drainage.
I think that I remember hearing Kati saying somewhere that her and James had been looking at a map in the car. This is where they determined together where they thought they were….James thought he was only 4 river miles from the great big town of Galice. I believe that was his mission…
298 – I reserve that .01% because I was not with him.
Well, 99.9% is good enough for me! Thanks. I’ll go back to my privately and quietly pondering with that in my “sick and twisted over focused mind.”
well, I think the official route matters, to focus on signage and maps, and where people are likely to go wrong.
Like I said, I havn’t taken the time to really focus on this portion of the case, but I hadn’t stopped to think about, what we are all accepting as the offical route….and who created or decided that was the route.
well, except for what I have read in the paper, and what kati has said, that is really what I figured….
I guess that may be why I hadn’t thought about it…hmmm. now I am just confusing myself.
JoCo (300) Ha – I thought it was because you thought you might be an inch or two off!
SAR Trackers, especially following footprints in the snow are pretty darned good – I can’t imagine James trail being any different than what we’ve been looking at.
Mapper – I don’t think that their official route is the only one that needs signage anyway. In my years involved, this is only the second time I have ever known of a call on that particular spur road. I think that we owe it to the other people too, who get lost up there on other routes. I think that we need to sign the hell out of the ENTIRE area!!!!!!! (I am still personally curious as you though)
303 – If you watch the CNN hour long special, it showed the reporter and John James with Sgt. Joel Heller picking up a baby toy and pieces of clothing along that road to the top of the drainage…
304….joco that is part of why I havn’t focused on it either, its my understanding the whole area needs better signs and maps too, and I truly understand jurisdicational issues, and how a person can easily get lost in an area like that if all they have is a state issued highway map.
Signage – I still am pondering how one could create a warning signed that worked, especially given our immunity to warnings these days (post 251). It seems some sort of a flashing warning that actually partially cover the road at the orignal points of entry; with room to manuever around for winter sports and VERY DIRECT language is necessary.
We actually have a section of a state highway that has arms that can be lowered (like an old train crossing) when officials feel there is avalanche danger. I believe the State Transportation Department is responsible. I’m not aware of the USFS or BLM taking responsibility in National Forests, other than what you already have.
Perhaps a community outcry, and a high-profile case like this can be the catalyst for change.
Ellen, sounds like my flashing sign idea on the last page.
oops, i mean Angela.
Angela,
something with flashing lights…helps get the point across to me!
D- are you lurking around here??? Since your so close are you going to tour the Merlin Galice area and mouth of BC road??? Just courious
I’m brainstorming here – help me out. It seems one of the biggest obstacles will be funding the signs. There are some local and state agencies that are likely interested in supporting these signs. Commerce, Tourism, naturally County SAR’s; and what/who else? The USFS / BLM have responsibility – however they also have millions of miles of roads on federal land. They would have issues such as what can be done on Bear Camp and what would be setting precident and required everywhere (which is of course a good idea; however they would have to think of total costs nationally). So, where would grant money be available to pay for signs? And grant money would likely require at least a 50 percent matching – Could we come together and present a proposal? A proposal to cover the costs of the signs with an agreement that USFS / BLM or some other government entity maintain etc.??
What do you think – worth pursuing?
JoCo / RRR – how many points of origin into these roads are there in Josephine County? Naturally the Coast side would be important – Curry County?
What do you think?
312- I couldn’t even begin to count the points of origins on these roads, there are at least 6-7 “offical” entries HOWEVER if you have looked at the map and saw the spegetti roads those roads sometimes tie to the main road and so on and so on…..
JoCoSAR you didn’t send me anything yet to post, right? do you remember if the article you were looking for about BCR from the Courier or a national paper? Earlier people were linking to Google images of some of the signs up there – I think most are online by now and some commenters here had taken their own pix of some of the signs.
Angela just wanted to hear what ou thnk of my idea for a flashing sign along with road sensors, on page 3 post 527 and 546?
Back with dinner in front of my keyboard.
305 – JoCo, the CNN thing was a little odd to me because of the very fact that those items were still sitting there. Had they not been moved yet, or did they put them back? Kind of like with that broken lock that was supposedly sitting there. Much that I see in the media (in general) comes across as being very contrived. Anyway, I understand the items were there, just kind of weird how the media presents things is all.
I wonder where Gayle has been lately. Anyway, I know I say it every single time the sign issue comes up ever since Gayle mentioned it, but her idea really was unique and a little more thought provoking something to the effect of “rain here/snow up there.” Now granted, there would need to be other signs of other types, but that one takes away some of the genericness of seeing snow signs in August and year-round.
314- She did not send you anything we couldn’t find the article
Im curious about the whole he walked in the way they came. They’d been driving forever, would he have walked back down that same route that he’d just driven knowing there wasnt anything back there for miles?
he walked out
JOE – the link to page three above takes you to the home page – is that your intention?
dkf747 (315) – It’s a great idea, though I suspect there would be a few issues that would make it impractical such as availability of power source, and cost prohibitive for the electronic messages. While it would definitely get peoples attention, if there are 6-7 official entries just in Josephine County to the forest then you are really talking about quite a lot cost. I hate to be a naysayer and discourage an idea – I just think we need to have it cost effective and easy to maintain. This would be especially important if you consider the possibility of this being a beta for other forest areas that tend to attract tourists.
318-319/Tara: I think his walk makes more sense in the context of him and Kati thinking they were close to Galice. JoCo/RRR, did he not cross over 2 or 3 other drainages before heading down Big Windy? You would almost have a sense of where above Galice he thought he was, but I think the theory put forth on one of the previous pages that he thought he was heading down Galice Creek towards Galice makes a great deal of sense.
Another question I have had – from his route on the road where he walked, would he have had a visual of the Rogue down below at some point ?? That would make the theory even more compelling.
321 typo – “…almost have to have a sense…” – sorry
(318) Now Tara, that is one question that I had kind of wondered. It sounds like it is typical for someone to leave the same way they went in, but I suppose it would be possible NOT to do so. Again since this was kind of tied into the alternate route I drew, I still don’t think that’s likely, but I do think that this is a good question to at least consider – would James necessarily have walked out the way they drove in? I wondered, too, again just with the darkness and fatigue if they were certain which way they’d come to that spot anyway. I know that sounds kind of weird, but that kind of thing has happened to me (but my sense of direction can be pretty bad, and half the time I come out of the store with no idea where I parked) – probably not, but it occurred to me.
323 – Even with perhaps other tire tracks there, I think James would be able to ascertain which were his and know which way he came in.
324 – I think so too, Paul. Most likely. But wasn’t it raining when they stopped there? Was there already snow on the ground at that point where they stopped (obviously it dumped on them overnight) – I can’t recall what I’ve read on that.
325 – details, details…I believe you are right and my theory unsound…I do believe they stopped after they were down out of the snow. There are so many details you start forgeting some after a while – good catch.
RRR/JoCo – what do you 2 think of the Galice Cr theory (I’m not taking credit by the way, someone else came up with that, just reintroducing it – but when it came up before we did not someone around who could address the visual on the Rogue from his walking route on the road)
326 – I know, definitely hard to keep up and remember! I wasn’t even positive that it was correct anymore after reading so darn much. Anyway, I do agree with you that it would be unlikely that James wouldn’t have remembered. I think he probably did go as JoCo said and then walked back that same way, but it does get the mind thinking…
JoCoSAR and RRR (317) OK. If the article turns up just email me and I’ll get it posted later tonight, or note if you find it online you can link or cut and paste short articles into the comments – be sure to credit the article’s author when you do that.
Hey everyone…I am sort of here…lurking tonight and tomorrow night. Have a lot to get done over here.
Keep up the great conversation…this is really amazing.
Biting my tonque because I want to jump in!
Nice to see Ellen and Angela jumping in…
Hey JoCoSAR – What are you chicken?
l8r
Hi Glenn! I’m missing your input. Get done so you can talk to us
Speaking of topography…
there is a stunning photograph of the Rogue River related to the Kim search in the sf chronicle’s year in photos. I can’t link to it, but if you’re interested it is at sfgate.com, click on the “year in photos” link in the right column, then click on December, then flip through a few photos of cute kids and animals, and you’ll finally get to it.
[292] ….JoCoSAR… if you’re able and so inclined would you describe in more detail the ‘command post’, it’s function, person in charge, possible duplication of function? was it the command post for the entire search operation or just a field satellite center? Was incoming information routinely verified to whatever extent practicable? On the Friday were the search helicopters directed from this post?
if you don’t or cannot answer any or all of these questions, that is of course understandable.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/dip?o=9&f=/g/archive/2006/12/01/yipdec.DTL
That is the link for the photo…
311)RRR – Lurking… would like to figure out how to get out there and do what you said… tour it… when do you think I should do it?
335 – It’s been dry for several days, you could do it now (well tomorrow)…it’s just a stones throw from Medford. Aren’t you in Medford ?
I think all the emoticons got JoCo & RRR thinking about sales at Walmart and they went back.
312-
as far as funding. well, “you are here” maps seems a minimal expense to me — with the exception of actually building the signs, which, maybe I am optimisitc but it would be a great community service project (like, a punishment kind of thing for petty crimes, yout offenders, etc — or maybe just some nice people who like woodworking).
USFS already does mapping, printing the you are here maps and placing a dot on them….not expensive.
I understand it would set a precedent, and maybe I have been to more national parks than national forests….but I know I have seen them in national parks and even state parks.
336) Yeah Paul, hi there. I know I could find Merlin and Galice and beginning of road, just wondering what RRR/JOCO are up to and if they might want to meet me somewhere… my relatives are going to late church service tomorrow and I won’t be joining them…
312
when you suggest grant writing. I think this is a great idea too. But who are you suggesting the grant goes to? USFS? JoCo? I wasn’t sure which agency you think should apply for grant money.
Oh… yeah… it’s not the 5th yet……. I’m going to be returning to coast on the 5th, so your call.
338 – Mapper, I’d even spring for the dots! It really can’t be too expensive to do that. As others have said about these things, certainly cheaper than a SAR operation.
337 – Paul, that was funny1 I hope they will be back. I’m interested in hearing more about the Galice Creek theory you mentioned and the command post questions Kip asked.
Folks JoCoSAR and RRR will not be able to comment any more at this time.
340 – JoCo knows for sure, but I think a good chunk of those roads up there are BLM.
339 – They were here just a short while ago…hope Big Brother didn’t drop in on them.
WHOA – I was kidding when I typed 344.
oh boy…
Well that’s not a good thing…
I don’t like the smell of this one bit !!! Smells like someone trying to keep the truth from falling into the publics hands. Maybe President Fords death has me thinking too much of Watergate.
Maggie, yes I agree, I really think the most expensive part would be building the structures.
I certainly have a talent of being at the wrong place at the wrong time…..
well….just on a side note
I had a feeling I might be going out the wrong door at borders when I saw someone I didn’t want to see and made a break for it….but the fire alarm really caught my attention! It certaily wasn’t very well marked that it was an emergency exit….but the noise caught my attention.
maybe the signs need to shreik along with the flashing lights.
and yes, that was pretty embarassing.
Hey you silently lurking beaurocrats !!!…just so you know, the truth will find its way out. As RRR said, why should anyone fear the truth ?
We’re being watched, folks.
(351) Hehehehe, sorry, but that is funny. Better signs needed. Maybe even a map saying not to go there.
I hate it when I do stuff like that.
well, I imagine they are not supposed to talk during an investigation no matter if they are right or wrong….hopefully they dont get in trouble for it
353….it was a life-moment. I really wanted out of there and then I set the fire alarm off. no better way to bring attention to yourself!
Let me just say that what Kati has told me suggests that she and James had no idea of the risk they were taking going that route, so I strongly doubt there was any cowboyish decision making or disregard for signs they may have seen on that road. Neither of them would ever knowingly place their children in jeopardy.
She and I also watched the hour long CNN special together and she commented often, but I can’t speak on specifics she should communicate herself. Plus, I don’t want to get anything wrong. Hey, folks, a Dad has to stay out of trouble too.
MD’s such as myself probably appreciate case analysis as well as any other class of professional. We deal with life and death issues most every day and a good bit of our time is devoted to morbidity/mortality review. Good docs are very self critical and second guess themselves on bad outcomes even when they have followed standards of care and done nothing wrong. Having laid that foundation it seems to me that JoCoSar is to be commended for her devotion to her profession and this case in particular.
We talked with Kati via phone tonight. She is doing well and I think truly getting some extended rest for the first time since the ordeal began. I do get sad when my mind drifts back to James and what he went through, so it is very uplifting hearing from the girls. That incredible little Penelope wanted Kati to be sure to tell us tonight that they have a hot water heater where they are staying.
Sandy and I are headed in the morning to Santa Fe for a few days. There I have no internet service unless I go to a cyber-cafe so I may not have much opportunity to check-in with this group.
Angela, thanks for commenting on my idea. Electric source was one reason I suggested putting them in Galice and Agness. I’m not sure there would need to be more than 2 signs. From maps and what I have learned here, it does not seem that there are many ways to get there. Also, it is needed for those who end up needing SAR. It’s an idea to reduce the need for SAR. It’s true funds are needed, but it seems like it wopuld a loit cheaper than SAR.
Hey, Phil. Frank’s brother called this morning from Santa Fe and said they had had 30 inches of snow. Safe travels.
(356) Thank your for your comments and continued participation. It really adds perspective and truly focuses in on the human element with all of this.
Glad to hear Kati and kids are coping. Just amazing.
Really appreciate your participation – it means a lot to many of us.
Please travel safely.
Thanks for checking in again Kati’s dad, and for your insights on the big picture. Great to hear that your grandkids and Kati are well – kids can handle a lot though it’s hard to imagine going through more than they had to just a few weeks ago.
Kati’s Dad, it is always such a treat when you are able to drop by. I’m very glad to hear that Kati and the girls are doing well. I read something that Kati wrote saying that Penelope said it was the “best Christmas ever.” To me that means that Kati and all of you are doing one heck of a great job in dealing with all of this. Wow, such an incredible daughter. I know you are very proud of her. If you do get a chance to check in, you know right where to find all of us. Be well.
(358) Ellen would you mind emailing me please?
glennforum at yahoo
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But with due respect, it was risky in many ways for anyone to try that.
Kati’s dad.
Thanks for checking in with us. I’m glad to hear Kati and the girls are doing well.
It’s interesting what you say about being an MD and dealing with life and death situations. It is commendable how JoCoSAR has been very humble here and taken suggestions from us.
I also feel the same way when I put my name on a map, and know that it will be for public comsumption. I know people believe what they are reading and do not always second guess what has been published. At least we map makers can use disclaimers, I bet it its much harder for MD’s and SAR to remove themselves from such liability, even when they have followed protocol.
I hope you all get some rest and are now eating well again. It has always been my belief that Kati and James did not know the risk they were taking, and it doesnt suprise me one bit to hear you say that, even though you cant comment on specifics.
Thanks
363 D.H. – what are you referencing ?
356) 1st 3 lines. I could have waited a few hours to say that, or not at all, but there it is.
DH, have you lived anywhere besides oregon? just curious, because you have an intimate knowledge of the area that I think may make it hard for you to see how people from other areas might interpret maps and signs there.
Tacoma Washington 10 yrs., and I survived 10 yrs of driving in San Antonio. Of course a father would say that, good for him. Really, I could have held back, not said anything at this time. And eventually, that’s what this whole forum could turn into. Holding back.
(deleted at Maggie’s request)
DH, of course. It was terribly risky as well proven by the bad outcome. But, I think you miss my point, they did not know in advance what risk they were taking.
It’s so easy to second guess and criticize in armchair retrospect.
370) Kati’s Dad, sure, sorry to offend you. And I would feel the same as you about my daughter’s experience, since she is also 30 yrs. old. But really, I truly still, cannot understand what they could have been thinking. And the outcome saddened me greatly.
(356)
Whether people want to believe James as a hero or not…I think some things need to be said.
First of all it took a lot of courage to attempt what James did especially after so many days in their condition. To venture out like that took a lot of bravery. PERIOD.
What was the reason James did it? To save his family! He didn’t put himself first…not at any point. He made sure the kids had whatever food was available, etc. He sacrificed every step of the way. There are a lot of people in this world that would not have chosen this path – they would have sacrificed others to save their own skin.
James is what every father would hope they have to courage to be. He is a symbol what a parent is expected to do if your family is in danger. Whether his decisions were right or wrong is irrelevant – bottom line he did something and he did it without regard to his personal safety – this is NOT an example of foolishness or recklessness – it is an example of absolute love and determination to save his family.
I remember when my first daughter was born…literally at that instant I knew I would take a bullet for her…without even a second thought – that is true love. It is an amazing feeling.
I think that is why so many people feel compelled to do something. We cannot let James’s sacrifice stop here…there needs to be a legacy for many years to come. Every human life is sacred and to lose it in your prime (whatever the reason) is a shame. Our blue marble lost an incredible person and three families lost an incredible father, husband, son, and son-in-law.
We cannot let this end here. We need to work together to create a lasting legacy not only for James’s children but to help people in the future that get lost.
Make no mistake – James died a very horrible death. We cannot forget that. Just try to imagine his frustration, desperation, hope, faith everything that goes into something like this. We cannot let that fade – that level of emotion we should tap into to make something positive out of this.
Kati’s dad, James gave your family an amazing gift. You got three very special presents this Christmas because of his sacrifice. Let’s not forget his footprints ultimately led to the families rescue – so he did accomplish his goal – he saved his family! It isn’t often you are presented with another chance at life – I am sure both families will and do realize this and cherish every second Kati and the children are here. Remember part of James is in each of those children.
I have been thinking a lot about this situation and to me all parents should honor James memory and hope we all have the strength he had to save our families if needed. I truly hope that we are able to do something significant and meaningful out of this.
Out of this we also need a strong effort to increase funding for SAR efforts throughout this country. We need to do everything we can to save a life in need regardless of how they go there.
Just my two cents.
PS – I don’t think Pac would ever have the courage that James had and I think that is why he acts the way he does.
PSS – Lisa did I just beat your longest post?
I can’t defend their decisions anymore than saying I think they were made in relative haste, innocence, and ignorance. Kati has to expect plenty of ongoing, perhaps lifelong criticism.
The first criticism I heard was something similar from one of my own brothers.
(372) Glenn, tears rolling down my cheeks and mouthing the words “yes, yes, yes” all the way through. Thank you for how you said all that.
(374) Sad isn’t it. Kati, James and the children exhibited great courage and fortitude during their ordeal. Kati did so many things right during their time lost to protect and safeguard those children. She deserves no criticism.
Time will change all that.
BTW…I have now added Kati to my list of heros. She is a hero to. During the ordeal and after. Her posts on Yelp speak volumes about herself, James and her kids and exactly how much love exists in their family.
Perhaps this will add a touch of Fatherly perspective.
Driving from San Francisco to LA with Kati in the front passenger seat a few days ago, I asked her to check the map for me. She said no and added some additional commentary related to their tragic event.
I had to pass the map back to Sandy to get the direction I needed.
I was most hesitant to even make that driving trip knowing the risk I was taking with cargo most precious to me.
Kati’s dad – I think one of the captivating parts of all this was the fact that many of us thought we could have been in that situation and made the same decision to try to head over via what appeared to be a shortcut. A combination of unlikely things (bad weather, wrong turns, bad signage, etc) combined to make it a tragic decision, but I hope Kati recognizes that criticism in a case like this is often more a reflection on the person talking than the person they are talking about.
D.H. – can I e-mail you at your DJ site ?
Glenn, before this ordeal I didn’t know anything about her posts on Yelp. I ran across them on a Google search. Wow, my pride in her leaped on up into orbital levels.
(379) Yep!
(381) Dr. Fleming your family is blessed in many ways. As I continue to read more and understand it is startling. You have every reason to be so proud of your daughter.
372 – Glenn you are blessed with a way with words. ::wipes away tear::
378 – Dr Fleming, how sad. We will keep Kati in our prayers. Hopefully in time, she will heal.
372 – I think you summed up, most eloquently, how every dad feels about James trek and his effort to save his family. Every father relates to how he must have felt stumbling down that canyon…”must get help, must keep going, have to…have to….they are counting on me…” That element, above all others, pulls so hard on me.
Thanks…I wasn’t meaning to get people crying. Although it is very emotional it is so important to make something out of this. The nay sayers can say what they want (hmmm…interesting phrase) but this is important.
Guess that is why I have gotten so annoyed with the Pac’s of the world…they have opinions but they do not have a clue about what is right and what is just WRONG.
I have seen so much in life and quite frankly even more in death…perspective is absolutely everything – without it, you can’t possibly make the right decision all the time.
380) Yeah Paul, you can email me at my DJ site.
387 – I can only send via that form like I am booking a gig, is there a link elsewhere I am missing.
Dee you can email me at glennforum at yahoo and I will forward it to Paul if you want…
I think I should start an email proxy service…
Glen, Once again, you have spoken eloqently.
I have never felt they were being reckless or negligent.
They were a family on vacation. They weren’t skilled mountain trackers or anything like that. Regardless of how good or bad the signage was, signs CAN be missed unless there are large blinking lights. When my mom & I used to travel together when my son was little, between our yapping and seeing to the little one, we OFTEN missed signs & turns we’d taken literally a hundred times before, on routes we could travel blind. Yes, from what I’ve read, the signage is a weak spot and definitely needs to be taken care of.
What I think should be noted here is that Katie & James did many many things right after finding themselves in a bad situtation. They kept themselves and their babies alive for many days on very, very limited resources in very bad, cold weather. James traveled a great distance in bad conditions, poor physical, mental, and emotional state. Katies kept those two babies well and safe for days on her own. The signage problem was addressed many pages ago, in depth. I know there are new people here & take that into consideration.
JoCo & RRR being banned from posting – smelling of circling the wagons or protecting the integerity of the investigation – yet to be determined. I do think they are trying to get the truth out.
Who I would not like to see Katie turn to for interviews:
Barbara Walters, Rita Cosby, Nancy Grace. Jessica, what’s her name, who got hurt in Iraq, her family did some interviews with Rita and then they told her they didn’t want to do anymore, but she wouldn’t leave them alone, even though they tried nicely to get rid of her and then ignore her. They finally had to either call the police to keep her from sitting outside their house or had to actually call the police to get rid of her, I don’t remember which.
Katie’s dad, whoever & however, if Katie ever chooses to talk, it’s her choice & will be respected. I’m sure that katie being married to James has some idea of how media works. Tell katie I think she did an amazing job.
(390) Golden rule…try not to judge someone for their mistake. If you need to judge…then judge them on their actions after their mistake.
Correction, yipes I do a lot of that – limited time & have to type fast usually – had to threaten to or acutally call the police to get rid of Rita.
I think the smartest thing Kati is doing right now is staying away from the media. She has 2 far more pressing concerns. I grew up in a media environment – there is a mercenary quality to news coverage that sickens me, and it is worse today than it was when I was growing up.
Um, that little contact form is cool to use, it just goes to me, and me alone. however, I just sent you an email thru Glenn, soo….. hold on you should have my email…………now!
Yes to [391]… also, as Lisa said, “It’s not right to reduce people to the mistakes they made”
372, Glenn, Wow, That was amazing and so true. What I see here is a lot of very compasionat people that truly care about other people. We all have to remember the Lord is always in control. God Bless everybody and good night. Bob
Wow, I get phone calls at the worst times!
You simply can’t judge people by their mistakes. What Kati’s dad says is true. Kati will face life long criticism by hard-headed people who never learned the golden rule. She needs to know, deep down, that those people will pay for their mistakes one day to, and they will also learn what it is like to be judged.
It doesn’t surprise me she didn’t want to read the map. She probably doesn’t even want to be in the car! She has paid such a price and everyone that can sit and judge her…well frankly it just makes me sick. What comes around goes around.
I know my own parents would not be as understanding as Kati’s dad, because at least one of my parents, that is just the way they are, always critical, always unhappy. Reading these comments is theraputic to me too, shows me what I have always sort of known but couldn’t be sure…most people are not like pac. Most people can relate to being human. I pray that Kati’s dad will remain understanding because she has paid enough for an innocent mistake. This truly could have happened to anyone.
And to the pac’s of the world….maybe they won’t get stuck on the highway…but are we to believe they are perfect? That they are shining examples of a human, that they never make mistakes?
No one makes it through life without making some serious mistakes, and if those naysayers havn’t yet, they will, count on it, and the fall will be hard.
Kati is so young, she will make it through this, and she will never have the terrible fate of being one of the “pac’s” of the world.
ps
just another thing. people who are so quick to judge. Stop and think a minute. You have a woman here who is probably the first to realize she made a mistake. The last thing she needs is some stranger(s) rubbing it in.
She needs time to grieve, and I bet sometimes she wishes she could trade places with James.
Please be respectful.
Others have already said it better than I can, but I feel compelled to say this. I could never blame or criticize James or Kati for this tragic ordeal when it’s something so understandable to most of us how easy it is to wind up in such a horrible predicament. Most of us get lucky most of the time and don’t have to pay such an unfair price for simple mistakes. Honestly, even when I think about it, I can hardly even imagine being that cold and that hungry that terrifyingly long, let alone knowing that my young children were enduring the same – and yet anything I have heard about how James and Kati dealt with it makes me only hope that I’d have as much courage as they each had. What James did to try to save his family is nothing short of heroic to me. I can easily understand why he felt he had to leave for help after that many days without the appearance of imminent help but a clearly more desperate situation than it had been on the first day or the third day or the fifth day. What choice does a loving husband and father have at that point if it appears no one will come to save his family? Superhuman is the other word we’ve heard that sounds pretty accurate to me as maps and pictures of the unforgiving terrain have been shown along with the description of how incredibly far he went, surely thinking of nothing but saving all 3 of his girls. And in the end, we hear that it was his footsteps from the car that finally led help to the car, even if it cost him his own life. How Kati was able to continue to keep her wits about her and keep her girls alive once alone in the car without her husband is beyond me. The closest I can imagine it would feel would be nothing short of absolutely terrifying. But somehow she did it. And she will continue to do it. And from what I can tell already from glimpses on Yelp and comments from Kati’s (wonderfully supportive) Dad, with more grace and courage than most people can muster. While I believe that many people could get into such a dire situation, I also believe that few could act more bravely during and after. So I’d have to agree that they are both heroes in my book. To criticize too harshly the easy mistakes most people make (but luckily pay no price) is to completely miss the point of what may instead be seen as a tribute to hope, grace, courage, bravery and love.
Personal issues.
Let me say that although my posts have tried to focus on SAR issues, I am not unaware of the fact that had I been in such a situation my performance would not have been as good. I know I would not and could not have gone so long without food and I absolutely know without a doubt that I could not have traversed even half the distance he did. Even if I had ski boots on to keep my feet relatively dry I know without a doubt I would not have had the physical or mental resources to make it anywhere near that far. I have had a few lapses in judgment when travelling but the consequences have been limited to ‘inconvenience’ and did not at all approach ‘ordeal’. I was lucky in that respect. And it was indeed luck. We speak here of preparedness and survival skills but often forget that luck plays a role too. I have the luxury of sitting here and imagining myself reading signs carefully and heeding them instantly, but I know I’ve missed signs or failed to heed warnings or chosen to press onward anyway. So have others. Many of them. I do wonder what sort of ill luck ever took him off the roadway and into the drainage area. Did he see a distant stream and think that slogging through the rugged terrain to the stream would speed his family’s rescue. By this time, keeping his feet dry may not have been much of a concern to him. I’m not sure if setting out on foot was proper or not though I don’t dispute that it was courageious. I do wonder if they had any other fire-starting ability? In the movies dry tinder is always available and rubbing two sticks together gets a fire going but in real life things can be different!
I agree with Dr. Fleming.
Ive said it before. I am not stupid and I am very educated. I have worked years ago with SAR, I climbed many a 14er, spent 31 consecutive days blazing and building part of the continental divide trail. All camping, for 31 days. I am not reckless or foolish. I try to weigh and measure my decisions. I am accused of “spending too much time inside my head thinking about things”.
And I have been in grants pass trying to decide which road takes us to gold beach. We wouldve taken BC if I hadnt wanted to see the redwoods.
We arent danger seekers, thrill seekers, reckless, stupid, or have get-there-itits.
We simply are at the mercy of a map. WE HAD NO IDEA it wouldve been a hard trek.
It looked LIKE A ROAD TO US.
I firmly believe James and Kati believed so also.
And glenn. I understand the give your life for your kids thought.
I would take on Hell with a water pistol for mine.
When I think about how we all say that, and James did it… it makes him a hero to me. period.
One of the top stories of the year in sf:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/31/BAG1VNAL5I1.DTL
Kati’s Dad:Thanks again for stopping in. It is so nice to know that Penelope is such a trooper–from the mouths of babes. Kids are so darned smart.
Kati’s Dad – Everyone else has expressed so eloquently what I would have wanted to say to you. We are so grateful for your participation here, and hopefully it has given you an understanding of why we are gathered to talk about your family’s terrible ordeal. Our goal is geared toward prevention and better tools for response to such a situation. Others, like those who gawk at all accidents and badmouth the drivers, will never get past that James and Kati ended up on the road, and will be smug and superior in saying they never would have let that happen.
This could have happened to anyone, including the folks who swear they never would have taken that road. Maybe it wouldn’t happen to them in OR, if they know the roads, but in Wyoming or Montana or somewhere else where an innocuous looking road on a map may be unforgiving terrain. Or they could take a wrong exit in an urban area and end up in the middle of something they didn’t expect.
Hopefully we can keep it simple while dissecting this situation, and come up with some straightforward and practical answers. Please be assured that we are looking for horses, not zebras.
Okay, where is everyone? Darn, this is when it would be handy to be able to see posting times.
Madeleine: 11:45am. I’m still lurking, also wondering where everyone is. I guess they’re just busy. I’m sorry about my mistimed comment last night, it was calloused, and does not represent my overall attitude. I moved on to constructive pursuits to support SAR a few days ago. Occasionally, my curiosity slips, this time at exactly the wrong time.
This afternoon I am playing miniature golf with my family at the Rogue Valley Mall (Medford), glow in the dark miniature golf, which is exactly what I should be doing this afternoon.
I’m here lurking, too.
Hello folks. I’m not on as much as before but will try to keep dropping in to make sure nobody has been … injured!
403-405: If the goal is to prevent a reoccurence, though, isn’t it important to determine why they did keep going? (Assuming the road isn’t just gated and locked in winter) Was it inadequate signage?…or misleading maps?…a combination?…or was it something else we haven’t even latched onto yet? Just because I ask those questions does not mean I am judging their decision, and I fear that in not asking those questions we could fall prey to the “holding back” issue that D.H. warned of last night.
Those are fair questions Paul but unless they interview Kati as part of the process I doubt we’ll know this until she recounts the ordeal on her own.
I hope Kati’s starting to write to herself about all of this because memories, even bad ones, fade fast and the amount of interest in their decision making, survival, and rescue is simply astounding.
I think I may create a separate page on which people can only ask specific questions and post very specific answers to other questions. No speculation or theories will be allowed there, just questions and answers.
Paul, I understand what you are saying. I do think it is important to try to understand why so that hopefully this can be prevented, and from the best many of us can tell it sounds like they truly just did not know what they were getting into until it was way too late, so I think that is what can be and needs to be changed – an earlier warning of more clearly just what someone is getting into if they head down this path – through things like better signs in better places, better maps, perhaps some kind of gate system that locals can still access but other folks wouldn’t and lots of other ideas we’ve all been discussing. So it is an important question to ask why so that others can be prevented from finding themselves in the same danger, but I just think that assuming they knew they were taking such a huge risk and carelessly taking it anyway just doesn’t sound right to me – maybe for some reckless young thrill-seeker, but not for a young family like this.
409 – Agree, and also feel that is totally up to her when, or even if, she ever does.
RE: The Q. & A. page – I am hopeful JoCo & RRR can rejoin us after the 5th or so. They have so much specific knowledge for the kind of page you propose. I was really curious if James could get a visual on the Rogue from anywhere on his trek on the road. It’s such an intriguing element to the theory that he thought he was on Galice Creek, which IMO makes so much more sense than that he just randomly dropped down Big Windy.
410 – Hard questions are important, but there is a fine line between hard questions and cruel badgering. I’ve tried to raise hard questions while remaining sensitive to the situation.
412 – And Paul, I do think you have struck that balance well, imho. Delivery and presentation go a long way around here
413 – Speaking of presentation, I need to expand my emoticon repretoire…Joe gave us a link, but in all these pages I’m not sure where…anyone remember?
405 -D.H. – if you like glow in the dark mini-golf, you should try lighted Bocce sometime, an easy game for kids and fun for adults too.
Happy New Year’s Eve all!
4:41pm EST- I agree questions need to be asked to find out what correctable problems led them into their predictament to prevent others from making the same HONEST HUMAN mistakes,especially as there seems to have been a problem with this particular area for some years. And there are answers we’ll never know unless Katie decides to answer them. And there needs to be hard questions asked about the SAR efforts as this is the job they are supposed to do to improve their work. But I also agree that there is a fine line between asking questions and badgering and blaming the Kims for their honest mistakes. I do hold SAR to a higher standard becaue they are supposed to be trained and first responders to incidents like this. Even with JoCo’s imput, I’m still not satisfied that there weren’t serious mistakes made which should’ve never happened with a trained SAR. It still bothers me that two separate individuals who were not involved in the official operation, each working on their own without input from each other, BOTH focused in on the same location when SAR couldn’t.
paul
http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
Locked gates are a (how do I say it gently?) repulsive option imo, certainly a last resort consideration. We’re grownups, not kiddies in a playpen. Why not just have good signage? The NF 23 / BLM 34-8-36 junction is visually confusing. Many people with 1st hand knowledge have stated this. I’ve seen pics of it, and noticed the pathetic little sign saying “to the coast” or something like that. It was probably stuck there in afterthought by some frustrated but concerned, caring motorist who mistakenly took the wrong road.
I owned a Saab once, great little machine. Tough, its front wheel drive traction seemed to want to pull me any way/place I wanted to steer. They’re built considering snowy conditions and used to advertised that way.
If you don’t stray off the road what can really go wrong? Worst case scenario: get stuck by deepening snow, or blocked by a snow drift, or by a rock or snow slide. Even then there seems a reasonable chance you could just turn around and back track. If the going gets too tough, just park the car & try again in the morning or wait for help. Sooner or later somebody will be along. Of course if unknowingly lost far off on a dead-end road like the Kims, all such rationalizing makes little sense. But if the signs had been clearly readable, and understandable at the confusing junctions on the “road to the coast” I think James would be alive today.
Paul, of course it’s part of the solution to find out what caused someboy to keep going, but the problem is that many people just accuse the Kims of horribly bad judgment rather than looking at the elements of why they thought it was OK to keep going.
We’ve established that they were certainly caring, responsible parents who would not do anything knowingly to put their children in harm’s way, so the question to me is why it appeared safe to continue, based on the info they had. Adding in the human factor to the bad maps, lack of clear signage, etc. created the situation.
Sometimes people just get bad vibes about turning back, or they perceive that going forward will get them into a better or safer location. And then it’s too late to do either.
Here are a couple of things focusing back on the SAR angle of things. The first is a link to a story you all probably saw, regarding the SAR effort in this and other cases.
The second is very interesting, all of the SAR records for OR. I haven’t had time to go through all the stats as yet, but somebody else who did told me that the majority of lost folks were from OR, not out of state.
The 2005 stats for all counties are extremely interesting, and give a good picture of what SAR teams are up against. This is good background for us to know as we approach finding solutions:
http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/12/24/100wir_b3oregon001.cfm
http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
416 – 418 – I need to go back and look at the weather history, but this has been a winter of unusually strong storms, many of them with fairly abrupt onsets (consider the horrific winds that played a role in taking the lives of the Mt Hood climbers). I could easily see a situation where the snow level came down fast as precipitation intensified and they were already too high in elevation and whiteout conditions ensued. Without chains, and with a road with sharp drop-offs lacking guardrails in many places, James would retreat cautiously to avoid going off the road. That still leaves me puzzled as to why they would leave the route they came in on and go down the BLM fork versus just continuing to back down Bear Camp.
418 – yes I agree
Paul, you seem like a nice guy (and occasionally quite funny). But I dont think most of us are “holding back” I think we know that Kati’s very specific answers are going to be very close to our very specific ideas about what went wrong. And if not, it sure doesn’t hurt to realize the maps and signs are not good enough. JoCo has said this, and I sure do trust her on that.
I know the map is not good enough, period. I still think this may be why James ripped it up and left pieces of it. “useless”
If there was another reason the Kim’s got on that road…I’m sure we will all find out someday, Kati will open up one day and say why. And I know that you know its inappropriate to try to further that process along.
I absolutltey do believe its callous to say such things to Katis dad about “how could they do something so foolish” or etc or even “why did they do that?” and no matter how you say it, with a smile or a laugh, its still inappropriate.
It’s not holding back…its just that to most of us it is pretty darn obvious what could have went wrong. You have a whole lot of people that have gotten lost up there. Kati’s answers are not going to be a big deal, frankly.
DH I respect your apology.
But even if we wait a few hours to speak do you not think people will scroll through a few hours later?
Simply, asking hard questions of hurting family members will get you nowhere, no matter how you prhase it, it is inappropriate. And I’m with Maggie, Dr. Fleming has already said what we need to know, they made a decision in relative haste, innocence and ignorance.
I think were all very intelligent people here who ask the right questions, and have the right motivations. Were not just a bunch of over-emotional fruitcakes….we are not afraid of asking questions or holding back. There are just some things that seem quite elementary or unnecessary…or simply can wait.
Happy New Years All.
405 – DH – I missed your “comment” that you referred to last night, but have made a few of those, myself. It’s hard sometimes to word things just right. We take into account the people we know to be here, people who may lurking just to follow along, and people who may be lurking with unsavory motives. Not to mention people who have been gagged and can’t respond, though they really, really want to. Meantime, I don’t think any of us want to make a visitor uncomfortable, if this hits close to home. So we’re kind of tiptoeing a bit (until Pac shows up, that is, at which point all bets are off).
Paul, not knowing the area, this may appear a silly question, so if it is, I’ll stand corrected.
Is there any way they could’ve thought they WERE going back down the way they came, Bear Camp, if I’m correct in that?
Just wanted to wish everyone a Happy New Year! Been a busy day and won’t be back until tomorrow some time.
And Joe I am so sick of posting I am not going to post again for the rest of the year!
Have a good and safe one everybody!
Paul
I think that is a good idea, checking the weather reports is a good way to get some more specific ideas to figure out what else could have gone wrong. I also have a hunch this was a big factor since it was raining when they started…sorta a wrong place wrong time scenario.
Thanks Glenn!
Happy New Year to you and all!
In snowy conditions and or at at night when driving, it is so very easy to not know whether going up grade or down. I have often been surprised when backtracking a road in daylight I took the previous night to find that it goes up when I thought it should be going down and v.v.
Happy New Year to One & All
http://www.uptoten.com/pickup.phtml?v=2045287-vdwz-en-2
Thank you Joe Duck.
419 – Paul, it’s just my hunch, but I am still not convinced that they ever made it past that fork where FS23 and the BLM road meet. I still think it’s entirely possible that they took that right onto FS23 believing that it was the continuation of the “correct” road since it is so much wider. In that case, it may have been one of the many spurs off of that on which they did the backing up. This is still, of course, pure speculation, but that really does seem to be a long way going the wrong way – so I don’t know if they just thought they were actually still on the “correct” road all along. Hard to say for certain. In any case, definitely leaves room for better maps/signs, etc.
Thanks Frances -
Madeleine – sorry for delay, I just approved your comment which is now showing above. It was stuck in moderation cuz it had two links.
Madeleine
Wow, that first article was one that I have not yet read. Its enlightening how differently things are done in different states. I already know that is the case, but this really makes it clear.
I wonder if its any solace to Kati’s dad, that there are vast differences how things are done in New Mexico (where he is from) compared to Oregon. Its no wonder his decision to stay home might have been influenced by that.
I also had not seen these quotes from Sheriff Daniels (except in the US Observer or on here so I hadn’t taken them seriously). His attitude speaks volumes. The fact that it has happened 34 times doesn’t seem to ring a bell with him…how many ways can you say or spell – pathetic?
I know I have seen people address this here before but I guess I had other concerns on my mind.
Good to know.
419 // 421: Thirty-four wintertime searches in eight years ?!? …oh, but it’s ALL the fault of those who got lost ?? I think Sheriff Daniels is the one who lacks common sense. That stat alone screams that you have a problem and to blame it all on those who got lost is to behave like an ostrich.
Having posted those links above regarding SAR ops and stats, I wish JoCo and R3 were able to comment, as there are some potshots in the article. I want them to know that we will eagerly await their response after the report comes out, since they haven’t gotten to give one to date. How very frustrating that must be!!
430 – Joe, I rarely do anything in moderation when it comes to making comments, so it was a pleasure to be stuck there for awhile and see how the other half lives.
Maggie (428): I agree. When I first saw a picture of the FS23-BLM intersection, I thought that the right-hand road was the correct route. Even after seeing the sign, I was still confused.
Perhaps we can all agree that the Kims proceeded reasonably, given what they knew at the time. Although we can see now that some of this information was incorrect, the Kims didn’t know it at the time and, in their case, their decisions were entirely reasonable when they made them.
However, Paul is right – we can’t avoid this sort of disaster in the future unless we understand what happened to the Kim family. As I have said before, we honor the memory of James Kim and give meaning to his Family’s terrible ordeal by trying to understand what they went through and by trying to prevent another tragedy. Otherwise we have learned nothing.
Now, let’s assume that Maggie is right and that the Kims took the right-hand fork onto the BLM road thinking that the were taking Bear Creek Road to Gold Beach. Now, let’s also assume that the Kims saw the mileage sign at the FS23-BLM intersection and noted that Gold Beach was 50 miles away. After considerable driving down the “Gold Beach” road, it seems to me the Kims may have thought that they were closer to Gold Beach than to Galice. Just my speculation, but I am more attracted than Maggie is to her proposed alternate route. It seems to me that the Kims would naturally try to turn left (i.e., West) toward Gold Beach at any intersection. But we may never know.
As others have pointed out, the Big Windy Creek drainage is so rough and inaccessible that it has never been logged. The Pacific Northwest has been growing huge trees for many centuries, and these trees grew, died, and eventually fell without interference from man. The soil beneath the forest was soon buried in fallen tree trunks, dead branches, and decaying vegetation, and new trees could only get a start by taking root on the fallebn trunks of dead and decaying trees. The result is a forest “floor” that is exceptionally difficult to navigate on foot and impossible to traverse by any other method. You might step over a log onto what feels like firm footing, only to find that you have stepped on a rotten log that starts to give way under your full weight. Your next step might be onto a centuries-old pile of branches that is deeper than anyone would want to explore. It is very hard on your legs or feet and very slow going.
Creekbeds are even worse because they tend to be filled with tangles of dead logs that may be unstable and that may be prone to abrupt collapses or shifts. If the logjam is located at a narrow point in the canyon, there may be no easy way to get around it without risking your life.
In short, unlogged forests in the Pacific Northwest are like a deep pile of pick up sticks, except that these sticks may kill you.
In terms of the West, the Big Windy Creek drainage is a relatively minor geological feature. However, it drains a lot of surrounding country and would be a major geological feature East of the Rockies. It is too far South for glaciers, so its creekbed was never scoured clean and has had lots of time to carve its characteristic V-shape and to fill itself with boulders and logs. To travel very far in terrain like that requires an effort that can fairly be described as Superhuman. This word would apply both to James Kim and to the rescuers who followed him into Big Windy Creek.
Sadly, I predict that the SAR folks will be gaining more experience at Big Windy Creek. I suspect that inexperienced people will foolishly try to follow James Kim’s route and may actually try to recover the emergency packages that were dropped. However, neither repeated traffic nor anything short of major trail building will make this drainage accessible without major risk to life.
435 / I, too, am intrigued by the theory they never got on BC at all but immediately went right at the fork, but I’m fuzzy on how to reconcile that with Kati’s account that the backed up a considerable distance.
Unless I misread, the emergency packets were never dropped due to fog, so there is nothing to find beyond the mysterious 2 lighters.
The Rogue River Canyou is a designated wilderness river and part of the scenic rivers act and I am relatively certain a major trail on Big Windy will never happen. Unfortunately, that will be unlikely to preclude some folks from getting stuck in there this Spring or Summer when they try to retrace James path.
I’ve been having to attend to other aspects of my life -
but I wanted to pop by and say:
***Happy New Year!***
Happy New Year everone! May it be blessed and safe for all!
435 – Excellent points, sounds like you are quite familiar with geography/foretry. The more I hear about the terrain James travelled over the more amazed I am at his fortitude and strength. Love of family will create that sort of adrenaline surge that allows for exceptional feats (moms lifting cars off their kids, etc.), but in the end, the body spends the energy and eventually gives out. The chances of him doing what he did were indeed small; he was a highly motivated man.
Maggie, are you aware of this?
http://www.layoutscene.com/james-kim-path/index.html
Maggie, or this one?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/chronicle/archive/2006/12/10/MNGVOMT3NJ1.DTL&o=0
440/441 – Yes, I have seen those.
441 – When I first saw this layoutscene depiction, I was under the impression that it was based on the erroneous coordinates given initially. I wonder if that was true, and if so, if this is an updated version. I’ll have to go look at the old link I had when I first saw this. Isn’t it interesting to see how the area looks from this perspective? And it looks like the road would have taken him to the lodge.
Madeleine, some of those on layoutscene are the correct and some of them are the incorrect car positions – each page describes which are which. From where the correct car position is and how it sounds like James walked from the car, he still would have passed that spot where the car was originally reported to have been – and just down from there, was the Black Bar Lodge that he didn’t know was there. If you haven’t taken a look at the ones posted on Google Earth (links on previous page), it’s really interesting to be able to follow the roads and even spin or tilt for different perspectives.
443,440, Read page one.
435 – very, very helpful.
Have been popping in & out all day and just now went back & read the article from the first link in post #419. I’m appaled – at the number of people lost in that area and by Daniel’s attitude – you can not tell me that someone in authority with an attitude like that is going to put forth the proper effort he should. His job is to look out for the public’s safely, be it from their own mistakes or what. This guy is some piece of work…
Hit enter when I meant to hit shift – he sounds like…
Pac!!!
445 – OK, I went to Page 1, as you suggested, which was happening when I was only here intermittently as a lurker. Arrgh, post after post of Pac’s was what I found!
I did see where most of the links I have posted today and yesterday had been posted then, but I guess it doesn’t hurt to reiterate from time to time.
Not sure what you wanted me to see.
448 Frances – Now THAT’s an intriguing theory…maybe he doesn’t live in Seattle after all….
449 – Madeleine, definitely doesn’t hurt to re-post links. A lot has been covered over these 5 pages of comments! Even mapper said she hadn’t seen the article while thinking of other things, and she’s been here since comment page one, too
I wasn’t sure if YosSWrn meant page one of the comments or page one of the layoutscene link?
I read it as page one of layoutscene. but I could be wrong…
Good evening Paul!
And tara, too! OK, I’ll stop contributing to a chatroom environment, just glad to see folks are here – we’ve been fairly quiet today without JoCoSAR & RRR around to answer questions.
449, 445, Try refreshing your browser on the 440 link. Look for the red entry on 12/9. I hope it answers your earlier concern.
Good evening Maggie!…yes, it has been slowwww today…& JoCo and RRR are with us in “spirit” if – silenced perhaps, but hardly absent.
I’m not trying to unearth your identity, I’m just curious if “YosSWrn” stands for something?
I would definitely imagine that both are lurking and wishing they could type. The timing was kind of bad – you and Kip both had some good questions out there for them. I guess it is understandable, though. Is it the 5th yet?
Who was it who came up with the Galice Creek theory ?…that was pretty good intuition. It just makes so much sense.
Brenda,
I enjoyed reading your geological perspective on the area.
As for wanting to know what Kati has to say about what went wrong, I am as interested as anyone else, but I think its a point that should be dropped here, as none of us has any control or say over when she will or wont speak about it. And when people try to take control of that, it just gets ugly, and I start to feel like I live in another country….I think we all want to know, but must accept that we can’t, and maybe in the future she will speak and we can use her commentary to even get better ideas than we already have. (and when I say we I really mean everyone I guess…pretty universal)
Hi Maggie, and all! Yes its kind of funny how addicted we all are, but its New Years Eve, I suppose there are many very unconstructive things we could be doing!!!! Luckily (or not) I have so much work to do I am homebound, deadlines, deadlines….
Oh, and Madeleine…yes I bet JoCo and RRR would have comments on the Sheriff Daniels quotes. I have some theories of my own now that I dont dare type…….and without going further into that, I guess its possible the media took Daniles quotes out of context….I guess we have to wait and see if that is the case. It sure doesn’t sound good when reading that article.
459 – Paul, all over page one of comments the idea that James may have thought he was headed down Galice Creek is mentioned by Spencer, Greg, you and others.
Spencer…wish he was still with us. I did not originate it, I just tagged along.
ummm does anyone know what happened to spencer? wasn’t he the one that was gonna go up there and check things out!?!?!
the ball just dropped in new york. Dick Clark sounds so old…and looks so young…its so strange!
Glenn is allowed to post again.
Off topic – just want to see if time travel works – it’s now 2007 and am trying to contact people in 2006….
The other good thing was Spencer was local and seemed to have good knowledge about a lot of specifics….plus he seemed to kind of center things when we would swing off one direction or another….he just vanished. But it is Twilight Zone weekend…
I did find where JoCoSAR did respond to the article mentioned above with Sheriff Daniels’ comments – take a look at Page Two of comments, post #1062 :
“I cannot comment on Daniels comments. That would be no better than what the newspaper did. Perhaps if he joins this forum, you could ask him. I would imagine that he could only speak of his personal opinion, lord knows, he hasn’t asked mine!”
hahaha Frances, I’ll be joining you shortly. but before our friends in the west. its a strange thing isn’t it?
Yes, Spencer really did have much good insight and comments and seemed to keep things pretty well in balance.
See, time travel IS possible…yea, it’s weird mapper, sorry to break the line of thought, but couldn’t resist … back to business
Seriously, wasn’t he the one that was gonna go up there? Isn’t that kind of scary!? Or is that just me…
Gosh, it’s still very early out this way. Not even time to start thinking about it yet
Frances, yes, the time travel is working!
While snooping around back on the old comments pages, I saw on page two a comment added after Joe had closed the page for comments that I hadn’t seen. Just yet another person who has run into trouble out that way but was lucky enough to live through it. Interesting.
470 – Yes, he was. Now that would be dreadful if he went out there and has gone missing. I thought he was going to go out this weekend….and no, it isn’t just you, that is a bit troubling. He’s probably lurking and will jump in any second laughing at our paranoia
not 2007 here yet..
You know who I’d really like to hear from? Is the guy who owned Black Bar lodge – isn’t he the one who was credited with writing directions directly on the road? The fact that he, or someone, did that, went to that length, in it’s self, to me, speaks volumes that the signs are not adaquate even in good weather and the level of frustration. Yes, Spencer did have good balance.
Any confirmation Spencer was going to go?
470 – mapper, yep, sounds scary to me! I can’t remember for sure when he was going to go. I might go up there in August (in an SUV/truck borrowed and more suitable for it, with plenty of supplies). Maybe. I’d like it even better if I could just meet JoCo or RRR at Dutch Brothers and let them take me
470 – paul its strange because I was thinking of it just before you mentioned it, after reading brenda’s post about people trying to retrace james’s steps, and I remembered that line of posts between him and, well it must have been you and some others.
Interesting, yes it would be nice if he came back to laugh! It is a holiday week where I guess most people are doing other things besides posting on web blogs!
I saved this link and forgot I had it and never posted it:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/12/scrutiny_of_jam.html
I’m from S. Oregon, and everybody I know is heartbroken & disgusted over this.
The Kims did like everybody has to do down here, take backroads, because that’s all there is in a lot of spots. Even the “main roads” would look like backroads to the rest of the country–and dang dangerous to the wrong person. They didn’t know they were lost until it was TOO LATE. Look at the CNN video of the roads, you would be totally confused which is the correct road to take. (See link Below)
I am not surprised that it was government negligence–we’ve seen it before so many times down here. They’ve had other people get lost and die down there, and dozens more get stranded every year. NOTHING changes, Authorities DON’t CARE. Those road signs that’ve led people to their deaths–nobody bothered to change them after that 1 guy starved over 66 days.
My folks live down there, and what if they or I slide off the road, etc? We can’t afford private helicoptors—just the ones we already PAID taxes for. We lived adjoining BLM property in S. Oregon, and if we tended our vegetable gardens, the heat-sensing helicoptors were all over us like flies looking for pot–(it shows up a different temperature than other plants). But NOT for lost taxpayers. Or if a person didn’t stop for a cop-car, well that generates a 400% effort, 30-car police-chase with bullets flying through residential homes. Somebody shoulda told the cops that the Kims were smuggling dope or child kidnappers, that woulda got them saved in no-time.
Don’t count on authorities down there—if someboy is lost, the citizens must do it themselves, just like in the Kim’s situation. Volunteers did most of the thinking and DOING down there.
Somebody needs to do something about those road-signs andthat wrong road people keep taking. Dig a series of trenches across it that only local off-roaders can take.
Video Link (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/news?ch=49799&cl=1409491&lang=en)
Posted by: Trailer Queen | Dec 18, 2006 1:58:04 PM
Frances,
Yes I thought this too, when I saw a picture with spray paint on the road.
Tara, what time zone are you in?
478 – Yeah, Spence probably has a life.
Seriously, I would feel better if he reappeared, if only to tell us were a bunch of worry worts.
473 – OK, now that’s kind of scary. I didn’t know he meant now.
475 – Frances, I’d like to hear from him, too! JoCoSAR indicated that some things about what we read about his role is not quite the whole story, so maybe after the 5th we will hear more on that. But he is the one, I think, that mentioned the spraypainting on the road for “coast” and then “dead end.” Of course, in snow it couldn’t be seen, but I agree that the idea that was even done shows that it was not very clear.
Maggie,
that is why it occured to me, he wasn’t talking about waiting until summer. He did say he would be safe, but I dont think he was intending to wait for july.
Im in central time zone.
457 Paul, Yes, where I live and play!
484 – Yos makes me think Yosemite…SW makes me things Southwest…rn makes me think nurse…so I can’t make sense out of it.
okay tara I wont ask for any specific locations, but I see we will be ringing in the new year together! I thought I was the only one here tonight in the central tz.
485 Paul, put the e in there not …! Anyway you got the idea.
Did anyone at anytime get spencer’s email? Its worth emailing, see if he responds…
Joe would have Spencer’s email from when we leave comments. Maybe Joe would want to check in?
how sure are we he was going?
490 – not sure, but he was talking about it…it is probably nothing, he’s probably off at some vacation destination celebrating New Years, but I would sure feel bad if he was slid off Bear Camp somewhere.
which page was it that he was talking about that?
all
I feel the same, hes probably partying somewhere (lucky him) but it wouldn’t hurt to ask joe if he could check…right?
Im in agreement Mapper
Page One – Comment 441 – Spencer mentions going in Spring. I’m still searching.
Page One – Comment 463 – he mentions going up that week for pictures but only if snow level is not too low.
452 – Tara, slapping self on forehead. Yes, I can see he meant Page 1 of the Layoutscene photos. And to think I slogged through all those Pac posts on Page 1, sheesh.
I don’t feel too bad about reposting links, as it helps to refresh our memories and to help any new folks who may have missed them. I had seen them elsewhere, but not here, small world. Pacific Time Zone, here…
http://www.siskiyouvelo.org/
spencers name contained this link
we’re in 2007 now.
Mapper at 448: “I think its a point that should be dropped here . . . .”
Well, Mapper, thank you for your opinion. However, the rest of us deserve the same freedom of opinion that you have so thoroughly exercised. Your attempt to control any debate on this forum is completely inappropriate.
Happy New Year Tara! Cheers to saving lives!
Maggie, thanks for the info re: JoCoSAR’s response to Sheriff Daniels, interesting!! I’m finding that in reading these articles now, my perspective has changed from when I first may have seen them, so I’m backtracking rereading
some of them. This particular one I don’t think I’d seen, and it struck me when they said to “be careful which county you get lost in!!” As if that would be a factor…!
Happy New Year’s Tara, Mapper and any central time zone lurkers!
brenda
your right its my opinion, not trying to control anyone, but we already know we can’t make kati speak and should not try to. how is that debatable?
502 – Madeleine, yes, it’s kind of interesting looking back at some of the posts as thoughts progress, isn’t it?
496 – Looks like Spencer did not go that week since he posted again on 12/20 (and had previously said he wouldn’t go if he couldn’t go in a 2WD). He’s probably just living life away from in front of the keyboard
I’d feel better if he stopped by to just say Hi, though, too.
506 – Oh, and he mentioned with the rock slide, no one would be retracing it this winter.
455 – Yos, now that I saw that entry on the layoutscene map, P.1, it makes perfect sense, and they did do the correction. Thank you, I had missed this post while catching up.
Maggie- where was spencers post about the rock slide?
509 – Tara, it was at Page Two 506 –
Well, what can’t be accomplished by man has been accomplished by nature. No one will be taking this route again this winter… The BLM portion of the road has been closed due to a rock slide.
(link not working – see new link below)
Sorry, I meant to put that in quotes.
Thanks Maggie.
If you are looking for the road closure link, the one Spencer posted no longer works, but I did find this:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/1221/local/stories/galice-closed-pf.htm
am I missing something on that link? i cant find the mention of the slide.
thanks
Happy New Year, Left Coasters!!! Have one on me at Joe Duck’s Bar ‘n Grill!
Happy 2007 fellow out here folks!
Hi, Maggie, we’re the first ones here in 2007!
Which proves we have no discernible lives! :+)
Happy New Year Everybody and God Bless each and everyone of you…..
Same to ya, Bob, (another hardy soul stops by).
***Happy 2007!***
Hi!
I found the answers to some of the questions people were
posting yesterday that I think never got confirmed:
“On Wednesday, Nov. 29, the family ran out of gas and started a fire with magazines, but the available wood was frozen, heavy and hard to gather. The next day, they turned to a spare tire for an afternoon fire. On Friday, they removed the four tires from their car and, by 11 a.m., had stoked a blaze they hoped would attract attention. By afternoon, their fire was out. They heard the chop of a helicopter in the distance. Then the sound grew softer and disappeared.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1165652726218920.xml&coll=7
523 – Lisa, good work! I remember reports that the tires were burned at night, which brought forth lots of criticism, i.e. “Why didn’t they burn them in the daytime?” Glad you found this, but it’s another thing that Kati could verify. It’s so good to reread these articles now, some facts have emerged and many are yet to do so.
CAP query.
Does anyone have further information on the Civil Air Patrol not having ever been contacted or involved in the search in any way?
It was the CAP who were about to be taking off to look for me once and the CAP who had telephoned all the enroute airports to first inquire about our plane. Sure there is a difference between the plains of Kansas and the rugged, forrested slopes of Oregon. Sure there are differences between a Cessna and a helicopter, but I can’t see any reason for the CAP to have been excluded.
Cell phone idea: would it work??
Let us recall that the Edge Communications engineer who noticed the SMS or ‘text’ signal was a great help in pinpointing the location of the stranded car but started out solely with the information that it was within a 26 mile diameter circle of a particular cell phone tower. Cell phone towers are often few in rural and very rugged areas.
What about a mobile cell phone “tower” of very low power being carried aboard a search aircraft. Searchers fly over the humungous expanse of impassible terrain while dialing the cell phone number of the missing person from an airplane equipped with a low power cell phone tower. The voice and text calls are made and the cell phone tower logs are analyzed with reference to where the plane was flying at various times.
It would be a way of having “virtual” cell phone towers out in the wildnerness and since the “virtual” towers are low power ones, any “hit” is immediately useful because the circle of probability is very small rather than 26 miles.
Happy New Year everyone!!!
Day one of the count down till the5th)
Happy New Year to you too RogueRiverRat!! So Great to see you here this morning!
coffee….
I’m working on an upcoming adventure and had out my local area maps. Since I’m headed to the wilderness the first thing I pulled out was the County topo maps – then I started thinking. I would hope that ODOT would consider removing the Bear Camp Road completely from the state map and putting the comment that mapper suggested somewhere. By memory it was something like “see USFS for detailed map of forest roads”.
I’m trying to think of what harm that would cause to not have the road on the state map – It seems that anyone really headed for the wilderness areas intentionally would know to get something other than a state map – and it seems that anyone wanting family travel roads would go to the ODOT map. So, WHY is Bear Camp even on the map? I know it wouldn’t solve everything, but I would think it would cut down on future accidental tourists getting into those backroads.
Just some early morning ramblings with not enough coffee yet. . .
I have wondered that and I believe LONG back in our conversation a local had a good insight. BC wasnt on the map (online maps) untill I think she said about a year ago? She and her husband live out there and were constantly redirecting folks once BC showed up online.
SHe said which month she believed it came online. After some research I found that the road was changed in its designation due to the high volume of forrest logging trucks. (this is some kind of regulation.. if it is used a particular amount or generates x amount of money… something like that-memory’s bad and coffee not strong enough) Once it was change in its designation it was then supposed to be maintained (by BLM I believe) to a specific regulation then it pops up on mapquest, etc…
Anyone else recall this conversation WAY back at the beginning? Did I explain that enough?
I will say that after one poster so eloquently asked us to stop being armchair quarterbacks and get up and “scoot” into action, I emailed mapquest and asked them to put a warning on that route or eliminate it altogether. I “scooted” best I can.
Thank you Tara, I’ll go back and review, sounds like something mapper would have been posting about. When I was trying to catch up after travel without my computer I think I might have skimmed a bit much.
Hmm, still thinking (which can be dangerous). Seems that the ‘mapping’ rules need to be reviewed along with all the other reviews.
Tara (532) – Wonderful – Good for you!! I’ll follow suit and email mapquest too – I would think the more emails the better.
I think I’ll email the State Transportation too. Can’t hurt . . .
I am not a mapper..ette.. and I was trying hard to figure it all out, but in my limited ability that was what we came up with. So if mapper weighs in (she must’ve celebrated too much last night
) she will know MUCH better than I…
I think your right Angela. The more the better. I hope they are flooded with emails.
Thanks so much Tara,
I’m off to work on some projects – including these leters – I’m going to throw in BLM and the Governor’s office too. If you think of others that would be good to send to, post them.
Hope you have a wonderful New Years Day!
I don’t think removing it altogether from the maps is the right answer. It IS, in summer, a viable – albeit lengthy, route to the coast. One of the problems with that part of Oregon is a dearth of roads – period – to the coast below Roseburg. I just don’t think it will happen anyway as that horse is already out of that barn and there are so many maps floating around with it on them.
Ample signage, flashing lights, closed in winter, whatever it takes at the junction…and unequivocal warnings impossible to miss on maps, but removing it from maps strikes me as the wrong answer.
There are plenty of other roads in Oregon on maps that are closed in winter. That doesn’t mean you take them off the maps. McKenzie Pass is a prominent example cited previously.
The online maps are the worst – they give no indication AT ALL it might be compromised in winter.
Tara,,,
Its either a problem unique to that particular logging road being on the map or its a problem that logging roads in general are shown on the state map. I’m not sure if a ‘band aid’ approach works if there are zillions of such roads on the state map.
I would like to state now that I was once on a no-longer-remembered-route-number from a major highway heading toward the California Coast somewhere in $pendocino county or just north of it. The last 28 miles of that route to the coast was a fairly steep and most definitely twisty road where headlights were on during the day due to dense foliage and most curves were marked at 15 or lower and often taken at less than marked speed. It really was a pleasant adventure driving that final segment, but I sure was glad for the sign umpteen miles back that warned me about that final 28 mile segment! I read the sign, I understood the sign, I calculated my situation as to vehicle, driving skills, season of the year, supplies, etc. and I proceeded onward with a sense of adventure and a sense of confidence.
and Paul, on a advanced search, I clicked eliminate roads closed or impassable in winter. BC still shows up, with no problem indicated
541 – That is just wrong. Mapper probably knows best how to address a fix for that…but I don’t know, were growing so many homegrown Mappers here, maybe you or Maggie could tackle it.
540 – Fool’s Gold – You reminded me of a road we took once from the CA coast above Cambria over to the 5. It was probably 3:30 – 4 pm, foggy, and we wanted to get back over to Paso Robles where we were staying. I don’t recall why we just didn’t go back down Highway 1 to Highway 46, but I’m guessing I didn’t care to drive the 1 in fog. Dumb mistake #1.
The locals directed us to a road that climbed into the mountains, was one lane for a bit, and later went through a military reservation. The first clue should have been when we couldn’t even find the road without close examination of the cliffside.
It was nothing like Bear Camp, but I remember thinking on the first part “I hope to heck we don’t break down up here”. We didn’t, and have taken the road again since early in the day, but it’s a good example of how people make decisions that turn out to be bad in the end. Actually, ours was bad in the beginning!
530, I wrote ODOT about the Bear Camp Road and this is what they said. I posted this a long time ago, or it seems like a long time ago.
Mr. Hollenbeck,
Thanks for your email message. We are looking at ways to clarify the situation for travelers in regard to Bear Camp Road.
It is not an ODOT highway (It belongs to BLM) so we can’t indicate whether it is open or not because ODOT doesn’t make that call – and TripCheck reports only on state highways.
But we are taking a look at all of the light green colored roads on the Web site (these are non-ODOT roads use simply for reference) and determine their value and condition.
Our approach is likely to be taking the line green road representing Bear Camp Road off of TripCheck all together. This should eliminate any confusion as to whether this road is a good option – regardless of the season.
Thanks again for your email and input.
Regards,
Glen Hammer
System Manager
TripCheck.com
I wrote:
Glen, I noticed in the Bend area you have a green road with a x on it saying winter closure. Is this a ODOT hwy. or BLM? Thank you for your fast response. Bob Hollenbeck
They wrote:
Mr. Hollenbeck,
I think the road that you are referring to is the seasonal closure at McKenzie Pass. This is a state highway. All of the darker green roads on the map are state highways and we do report on these roads. Sorry for the delay in my response, just getting back in after Christmas vacation.
Glen Hammer
TripCheck.com
Details in maps are often hard to read. Summer/winter risk on many mountain roads is obviously as dramatic as daylight vs dark. It seems to me that to achieve adequate warmings on common one or two page printed maps is just not practical unless that map is closely zoomed in to a small geographic area and computer based maps have their logistical limitations.
Why can’t more attention be placed to closing off roads with gates in the winter, but with circumvention methods for locals or other folks who really need to get through? Seems the cost of prevention would be worthwhile when contrasted with the massive dollar cost of intense/long term search and rescue efforts.
I do know that Kati and James felt okay taking that road in part because the gate was open. Furthermore, they saw evidence via tire tracks that the road was in use. They were surprised to realze first hand that they were on a seldom used roadway. Initially, they thought that someone would drive by the next day and they would be rescued.
I appreciae all the constructive intent of this group.
Kati and the girls return midweek. I’m sure Kati will renew her efforts to find a proper forum for telling her story.
And I wish that Sandy and I lived closer than a full 1000 miles away from our girls.
We took a road once in Eastern Oregon off of 97 toward Christmas Valley as a short cut to a desert motorcycle race. Not a dangerous alternative, but it took forever because it nearly shook the teeth out of our heads with washboard. Since then I’ve been highly suspect of “shortcuts”. They always tempt people though. There should be clear warnings on these shortcuts if at all possible. There are a few shortcuts which obviously tempt a large number of travelers, so it should be easy to identify the dozen “most likely disastrous shortcuts” in Oregon, and SIGN the heck out of them.
Kati’s Dad sir, do you know or feel comfortable telling us if they knew that the road with the gate was not the main road? Or if they’d been on main road to coast, backed up when it became impassable, and for some reason took gated road? Or if they thought mistakenly gated road was way back to freeway? If my questions are too much, just ignore them. I’m not trying to upset you, or anyone else. My questions have been asked quite a lot around here lately. Thanks for clearing up what you could. I appreciate it very much, since we all agree that nothing at all is expected of you or your family.
Kati’s Dad -
It has been so wonderful for you to join us here.
It is so good to hear your perspective. We’re glad
you appreciate our efforts! We wanted to do something
to help.
We want to do as much as we can to help! And I think you
can tell, we’re pretty dedicated!
Fools Gold at 526: Your post leads to an interesting point. Thanks to Edge Cellular, we know that the Kims either sent or received (not sure which) two text messages the night that they became stranded. What happened with the cell phones after then? Were their batteries drained? Was their final location in a reception hole from the Glendale tower? Surely family members and friends repeatedly tried to call and text-message the Kims, but Edge Cellular records apparently don’t show any completed calls or text messages. Could the two hits have been an automatic voice mail notification that were delivered when the Kim Family drove through a “lucky” spot for reception?
If we assume that we know the cell phone number of a SAR target in advance, your idea of a flying cell phone tower might work. It seems to me that equipment might be acquired that would repeatedly call the cell phone and listen for an answer. Surely someone has thought of this before and such equipment may be standard in law enforcement circles.
At the risk of angering the Thought Patrol, here’s my speculation: the Kims lived a busy lifestyle and it was convenient for them to keep their cell phones on and available most of the time. They presumably used these cell phones a lot. Because they were on vacation, the Kims might not have been quite as diligent about charging their phones as they might be otherwise and by the time that they realized that they were stranded, their cell phones had run out of power. They probably had a car charger kit at home but didn’t think to bring it along.
To check, let’s assume the opposite – that the Kims had two cell phones that were fully charged and working properly. If true, we might guess that they would repeatedly try to summon help. According to my topo map, the Kim Family was stranded at 2400 feet. The base of the Edge cell tower at Wolf Peak is around 3000 feet, with the cell antenna up to several hundred feet higher. From the perspective of the Kim Family’s final location, the Edge cell tower was around 18 miles to the East. Although there are several ridges and peaks between these sites that are higher than either end, it seems unusual that, assumaing repeated attempts, a partial signal failed to get through.
So what happened to the Kim’s cell phones? Although Kati could theoretically clear this up, nobody has suggested that she be forced to do so. Until and unless she decides to fill in the details, speculation is entirely appropriate.
Brenda: “What happened to the cell phones?” 11:00am. Good question, one to be added to the many I would suppose. I also wonder about if there was any scouting the nearby roads, and I’d have to conclude “NO”. Especially since the road to Black Bar lodge did not get scouted. There was a reported extreme concern with Bear in the area, which may have discouraged the scouting for roads or cell phone reception.
551 – We pretty much know that if they had even one working cell phone, they weren’t able to send or receive where they were stranded. I would think in that case, James would have taken any working cell phone to try further up the road, and I don’t recall hearing that. I therefore conluded that both phones were surely run down in the first couple of days from attempts to call out and/or the car battery being dead. As you said, pure speculation, and understandably it will remain so until if and when other information surfaces.
552 D.H. The road to Black Bar is gated and closed at all times and is only and I mean only a 4×4 road. If this helps. Bob
Map Legends, I wish people would pay more attention to them. Or perhaps the paper ODOT legend isn’t very good? You get past a certain type of road, it definitely isn’t worth taking. Are the legends good enough? Could they be clarified to indicate RISK? Perhaps.
Hi Bob, 554. Thanks, good to know. I however was referring to scouting on foot once they got stuck in that hole a few days.
D.H. Thank you for the clarifacation.
Also if anybody was walking near the Black Bar gate, I know they would not know what is down that road, it is not marked saying what is down there, and it should stay that way to keep people out of the lodge. (stealing etc.)
Happy New Year 2007 to everybody!
Kati’s Dad wrote:
Why can’t more attention be placed to closing off roads with gates in the winter, but with circumvention methods for locals or other folks who really need to get through?
I think this seems like an excellent approach but the challenge is to find a gating method that 1) Won’t get vandalized but 2)prevents people from just leaving it open all the time because it’s a “bother” to mess with the gate.
Part of the challenge in that area is that in summer there is a fair amount of traffic for rafting purposes and gates are probably not going to work well – they’d wind up blocked open or vandalized.
Joe, I know people are looking into what is called a half gate, you have seen my posting about this before. This would be a big gate cemented in the ground at both ends with a large sign on it saying closed during the winter, but still able to drive around it for the local people and loggers. This gate would be down at the Galice road. Bob
546- Kati’s Dad
I think we are looking into just about every way we
can think of to improve all misleading signs, maps,
etc. involved.
Often a lot of the problem with making these changes
seems to be bureaucracy and funding – I don’t know how expensive such gate systems are – but it sure would be worth it to have something more substantial that would
get the message across and be agreeable to locals as well.
Many of us have been and will continue to put pressure
on those agencies involved to make the necessary changes
in an effective way that all can agree on. We’re just
still discussing possibilities.
I know I really want the signs on Bear Camp to be changed
as of November 1 to:
“BEAR CAMP ROAD
CLOSED FOR WINTER
NO THRU ROUTE”
I think that would really help reduce the number of people
who get confused about the possiblity of using the route
each winter.
I intend to keep up pressure about the signs until they
are changed to something strong, clear, and definitive
as above.
After all the good suggestions here I still think better signage will solve 75%+ of the routing problems for the Rogue Wilderness Roads.
Current signage is by BLM and USFS is not very ominous – it has a different approach than Oregon Dept Transportation and national signage for most roads.
The Kims, like the rest of us, are used to road signs that greatly exaggerate the risk. For example the suggested speed limit of 30 on an interstate highway curve almost always leads to people (correctly) assuming they can safely go about 35-40 around that curve.
The signs up around Bear Camp downplay the risk – they say “may be blocked by snow drifts” rather than “Roads OK in summer but in winter usually impassable due to ice and snow” .
Why? I’m guessing that the wording was done by folks who know the area well and simply assumed “hey, everybody knows you don’t go over to the coast on that road in winter”.
Hi Bob, good to see you back here with great suggestions!
This would be a big gate cemented in the ground at both ends with a large sign on it saying closed during the winter, but still able to drive around it for the local people and loggers.
I like this even better than just signs. This makes it impossible to think you are staying on safe roads. Passing the gate means “I understand this is a dangerous place”.
Lisa, I think I would want to word the sign to include non-actual winter dates that had inclement weather. Remember, we pointed out that it really wasn’t actual winter when the Kims went over the road. Maybe “closed due to poor road conditions” or “closed until further notice due to weather”. Both are wordy and cumbersome, I know, but I’m just trying to anticipate the logic a tired traveler might use.
Joe – you have mail
Happy New Year to all!
Kati’s Dad, thank you for stopping in again. It’s always good to hear your perspective. I’m glad that you are still reading along with us, and I think we all agree that something needs to be done to let folks know what they are getting into before they wind up on those roads. The idea that James and Kati did think that they were still on a main road and also would be spotted there is a very big deal to me and confirms much of what we’ve been speculating around here about the confusion and lack of good warnings on the roads.
Something like the half gate that Bob mentioned still sounds like a great idea to me. Anything that would give a better sense of danger to someone seeing it for the first time yet still be accessible by locals gets my vote, and I agree that leaving it up to others to close the gate is putting more trust in just “anyone” than I think is likely deserved.
Much more ominous signs for certain! But just “winter” is too vague, as is the current warning about what “may” (read: also “may not”) be going on as you continue down the road. Everyone knows how I feel about Gayle’s suggestion of something to the effect of “rain down here/snow up there” signs to go along with some others that have better attention getting wording than the current very generic and not so ominous signs.
Simple signs and gates really do not need to be that expensive. And I agree with Kati’s Dad and anyone else who has said that it certainly is cheaper than a SAR operation – yet absolutely priceless if it prevents others from driving into that kind of danger.
Kati might find an edited collection of questions from this forum useful to review prior to formally telling her story. I could get it to her or it could be referenced online. That could be balanced with a list of suggestions to come from the group, e.g. it would give some very good positive balance to the effort.
I really don’t have anymore personal knowledge about their feelings or knowledge on the fatal road they took. I will probably just have to wait like everyone else. I’m please she is leaning toward doing this in documentary form. I think a simple interview would not do it.
She and the little girls should be back Wednesday. I’m thrilled that they get to have some recovery time together on the beach. It is an amazing contrast when compared to their living circumstances just one month ago.
Ellen, we are essentially snowbound in Santa Fe. I’ve never seen such snow here.
(567) Kati’s Dad this sounds like an excellent idea but I’m not sure what you mean by balanced by suggestions – suggestions about search effort improvements?
Yes, “suggestions about search effort improvements.” It would be nice to objectively point out some of good ideas coming out of this group, especially those that have already been acted on like contacting tripcheck.com.
This sounds great. Kati’s Dad – I’ve emailed you with my complete contact information.
I’m open to anything you think is a good idea though perhaps the best approach will be for me to set up new pages – one that will ONLY have questions for Kati and one with suggestions for solutions. We could edit out inappropriate questions and then you could email this to Kati or she could view it online.
This afternoon I’ve been working on an “extaction” of all those entries that address questions that Kati could answer, leaving out all those about the search, possible prevention, and all the incidental chit-chat. I’ll keep working on it over the next few days and then email it to you, Phil.
I have to leave for a few hours but will check back in later. Happy New Year 2007 to all.
564,566
I guess I was thinking that if the sign said:
BEAR CAMP ROAD
CLOSED FOR WINTER
NO THRU ROUTE
To me that would mean that it was closed now. But we
don’t want any “wiggle room.” So, it could say: NOV 1
at the bottom. It could even say:
BEAR CAMP ROAD
NOW
CLOSED FOR WINTER
NOV 1
NO THRU ROUTE
I have seen in similar situations were they employ a
combination of signs. Some that might say that above,
others that say:
WARNING!!
DO NOT CONTINUE
ROAD CLOSED
NO THRU ROUTE
Sometimes a combination of signs can get people’s attention
more because they don’t all say the exact same thing. They
can give more information (hammer in the most important
points) and complement each other with further info.
I have been in situations where I saw signs like this,
and it made me think the road was closed, and I turned
around.
Lisa, good points! What about having a whole bunch of those orange reflectors imbedded in the pavement at the turnoff going right. The kind that make a terrible noise when you drive over them, just to get the attention of any driver. That would get attention to slow down and read a large sign there, not sure how the road bumps would work in the snow, though. Then a highly reflective sign such as you mentioned, before and after the turnoff. Right in the Y of the fork, there should be a reflective sign that says COAST with a large left arrow. Other words could be added when it’s closed, it could say Coast Route Closed…etc. Just thoughts, brainstorming. I like your ideas, I’m just thinking aloud…(watchout and standback, it’s dangerous).
Here’s another one:
WARNING!!
ROAD CLOSED
DANGEROUS CONDITIONS
NO THRU ROUTE
sounds good Ellen and Joe.
This sign looks good to me:
BEAR CAMP ROAD
NOW
CLOSED FOR WINTER
NOV 1
NO THRU ROUTE
575- Yes, Madeleine, I like Coast Route Closed, too!
I like the ideas for something lighting up also.
It would be cool if there could be some kind of
inexpensive motion sensor lights that were solar
powered on the signs – that could detect motion
coming their way and then would light up.
Or even just having the lettering on the signs
be more reflective. I don’t think the signs there
now have any reflective materials on them. Do they?
I already called the Forest Service, but I guess the
signs are on the earlier parts of Bear Camp where it’s
BLM? Anyway, I’m going to be calling them and find out
why the signs haven’t been changed even though there’s
been all these problems for years. What complications
there are if any in getting it done. And when it could
be done.
578… How about red lights on a warning sign that only flash when the road is closed/unsafe. Sign could say COAST ROAD CLOSED WHEN FLASHING or something like that.
577- Kati’s Dad-
I’m glad you like that one!
578- When I called the Forest Service the people I
need to talk to were on vacation. But I intend to talk
to whoever I need to get a better understanding of just who’s in charge of what parts of the road, and who can
get something done.
I also think citizens can sometimes help pay for signs?
579-
I think that having the Coast Road Closed signs would
be a good idea especially at the main interchanges.
I’m not sure if there’s enough traffic to have red lights flashing so much of the winter, and how that would work. I read somewhere that Bear Camp can even still be closed in
April due to snow.
I think it’s important to also have signs that indicate
dangerous condtions ahead in some way.
It will be interesting to talk to those in charge at the
agencies and see what they have to say about how the rules
pertaining to sign regulations and guidelines, and changing them effects what improvements they think can be made.
However, I think at this point they’ll have to recoginize
that major changes and improvements need to be made.
What we need to find is/are the Eric Fuqua(s) (the cell phone worker who went out of his way to get that important cell phone information) – the “Eric Fuqua(s)” of BLM and
the Forest Service.
Or else, we just need to follow through until changes are
made. It would make me happy to do so!
581- I remember JoCoSAR also saying that SAR had also
begun the process of talking with the Forest Service
and BLM about changing the signs, and they were also
brainstorming ideas.
I think it will be helpful too if there is additional
pressure and inquiry coming from the public as well.
I will really feel great if we are able to help
accomplish some of these changes that need to be made
on signs, with possible gate improvements, maps, etc. And with the capabilities of people working with the internet and digital technology to assist in the future.
I think we saw a glimpse of that potential future with
Mr. Kims efforts to have that satellite moved to help in
the search. It reminds me of that saying: “For you, I
would move heaven and earth…”
I feel so much for Mr. Kim as well, it breaks my heart
whenever I read that quote he said at the Sheriff’s office:
“I know what my son is trying to do…”
It will also be interesting when the SAR report comes
out to see what they learned and what changes they
will be making in the future.
Hello?
ATTENTION EVERYBODY:
Later tonight I’m putting up a page that will
ONLY have questions for Kati and another that will ONLY have suggestions for safety ideas for the Bear Camp Road area. These will be passed along to Kati in a few days.
I’ll be heavily editing those pages to avoid conversations, duplication, and what I think are inappropriate or insulting questions.
I think Ellen’s working on a summary of questions so far and I’m hoping we can post that as well.
It’s OK to post questions here and then cut and paste them into the new pages later yourself, but I won’t be able to move questions myself.
Joe
OK, Joe, I have a question: Will “Joe’s Bar and Grille” have Michigans? If so — Claire and Carl’s, or Nitzi’s?
Joe, I know it’s off topic, but I love that little picture
of your mouth! It always makes me smile! I like the smiley
faces – but that is so original!
575- p.s. Madeleine (I love that name!)
I liked all your ideas. Sometimes I think what can
and will be done ultimately comes down to funding,
and I don’t know how much those kinds of bumps and
reflectors cost, etc. It will be interesting to find
out how much money could be available for making
changes. It’s true snow may be a factor with some of
that. I’m not sure what the average snow situation is
at that main interchange at the bottom of Bear Camp.
I know that JoCoSAR kept saying funding was a big issue.
Was it Maggie who said the ‘closed in winter’ is a bit too obsure? I agree, onset of ‘winter’ weather can vary greatly from year to year. Especially as the official date for winter isn’t until late December. Could there be a better determination – I’ve seen signs here that state ‘watch for (insert problem) from (insert date) to (insert date). This is just a generalized idea.
589- Yes, I suggested Nov 1 (573), but because it sounds
like Bear Camp is often even unclearable in April, it
could say ‘NOV – MAY’ or something like that.
I usually think of winter as starting at the first of
November, even though the official date is Dec. 22, that
seems way late by experience. I don’t think of November
as fall really.
I think that saying Winter (and some dates) helps explain that the road is closed for the winter season.
I will check back in later!
p.s. Ultimately what the signs say will be up to the
officials in charge. But it’s always good for the public
to come up with ideas they can suggest that they think
would work!
I don’t know who came up with the signs they have now -
it would be kind of interesting to find out – and to
even find out what they thought those signs would make
the public do. Carefully drive up to the place where
the road may be blocked or not? Be aware that the road may be blocked? It definitely seems the way it is now is too
open ended, and not effective enough in letting people
know the real dangers, and that therefore they shouldn’t
try it.
I will collect the ideas for signs and present them
to agency officials when I talk with them, or email
them separately if that’s what they prefer (probably).
575- Madeleine – I will copy and paste your ideas
because they are so specific – unless you want to!
It looked like Angela was working on some of this too,
I don’t remember details – but I actually think that
the more of us who contact them, the more likely they
are to really do something.
Unless the process is already set in motion…
593- addition
Still, I think it will be helpful…
Thank you so much Joe – creating a new page and going out of the way to edit is kind ideed.
Thank you too Ellen, going out of your way to assemble cohesive thoughts and suggestions from the thousands of posts here. that is no easy task.
I myself feel like I have said most of what I want to about the maps, though it is scattered from page one to page four. If you want to contact me lmnblue@aol.com and just let me know if you want me to sum up my thoughts into one note instead of many, I will try, as some people have posted here today asking me for more suggestions (which I thank you kindly for holding my thoughts in such regard).
Angela, yes isn’t it a different thing to look at a USGS topo map and the ODOT highway map!? Well I believe the USFS produces yet again something even different for that area but probably more similiar to the USGS topo. I have been too side-tracked and lazy to look it up for myself (the forest service map) but its my belief that they do the specific mapping of this area. The truth is, I do not think most daytrippers know that they should consult these kinds of maps ahead of time before venturing off the interestate or state highway, especially if the state highway map treats the road as if it is just a regualar road.
A question I have meant to ask but never did. Can travellers pick up usfs maps at rest stops in oregeon? Some sneaking suspicion tells me joe knows much in this area…
Anyway, just want to say.
Brenda you have voiced concerns of me being a thought police of sorts. It wasn’t taken very kindly at approx 12:01 New Years Day for me. I truly never meant to offend you or anyone else, and please forgive me if I have felt protective of Kati and her family. It is my belief that some people are trying to control a citizen that has broken no laws. In my years of federal and municipal government work I have never felt more part of active US government than I have felt simply posting to this forum, of many thoughtful and not always thoughtful voices. I would not want to squelch anyone or appear controlling. I am here alot, so my voice comes across often, indeed.
If am guilty of anything it is feeling deeply for Kati, a stranger to me, and identifying with her. People in the US who break the law and commit heinous acts are still entitled to a fair trial. Some of the posters here, in my opinion have crossed the line, from curiosity, to demands upon a citizen who has broken no laws. Kati is not a criminal. Criminals are entitled to a fair trial, but Kati is not even subject to trial. So when I speak of this issue, I am only trying to make that point. That is not my opinion. I hope you dont feel I was attacking your opinion, I was just voicing a frustration since it seems many people seem to skip over this fact, that kati is a free citizen who committed no crime.
Thank You Kati’s dad (and joe and ellen) for taking control of the situation, and for accepting questions. I think its a fantastic idea to keep them for reference and that it could serve as an excellent guide for a documentary, or however you choose, thank you for holding this forum in such high regard, as do I.
Happy New Year, love your sign suggestions Lisa and Madeleine I also like the idea of the noisy things on the road…was thinking this too (see post where I set the fire alarm off at book store!:)
BrendaHelversen 551,,, As I understand it it was a ‘text’ message which to techie types is known as SMS for short message service. These were messages received by the cell phone or atleast destined for the cell phone which apparently had enough ‘juice’ to engage in electronic handshaking with the cell phone tower.
Remembering to charge a cell phone in a hotel room is difficult enough. Travelling with kids makes it harder, I’m sure. Even with fully charged batteries, they were essentially out of cell phone coverage areas although had I been there I might have tried to trek to a high point for better reception but I don’t know what the terrain was like. As I recall, the credit card data and also the cell phone data were not given to the police by one of the hotels.
The major point about the flying cell phone tower is that it would have to a very low power one and its antenna array would be rather shielded. So any such ‘pings’ would be clearly linked to a very specific area.
It would not be a substitute for searching remote roads but it would be a help if that first day search plane gets a ‘ping’.
(595) Having committed now to drawing up this list of questions, I’m devoting all my energies to it. I’m trying to respect all those who have posed questions they would like to ask of Kati (and through her, to James). What information was available to them? What choices did they make? What were James’s goals as he set out? More anon. Back to my list making.
Ellen
my question would just be, what maps were they using and what did it convey to them about taking bc road? does she think it was good enough (the warning, and just the info on the map in general). I think that is a pretty open ended question and would not want to get to specific and ask a leading question.
okay I guess I could ask that later, sorry getting confused with all the details of the new pages and what will go where.
If you want to more fully appreciate how arduous their time was go to this link and check out the overnight lows and daytime temps, also the precipitation:
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSXT/2006/11/25/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
You can graph for the entire duration of their time, but the link was too long so this is just for 11/25 – go to “custom” to chart the entire time. This is for Sexton Summit, the closest reporting station to Merlin.
595 – Mapper, on availability of USFS maps. Not sure about Oregon, but I do know that for Washington, since I do some “dispersed” camping there from time to time, you do not just stumble across these maps anywhere. Someday on a workday during normal business hours I will try to get to the Forest Service office (in many years with this in the back of my mind, it hasn’t quite happened yet) to pick out the correct maps I should have (or just order online, I suppose, and pay the shipping cost). In other words, I doubt that these maps are very readily available, and this summer will be the first that I actually bother to buy one before going and expecting my good luck to just continue.
600 – Paul, one word. Brrrr. I can’t even begin to imagine being that cold for that long. Truly unbelievable to me.
I am sure that as family has, friends are gathering
around Kati too, to help her. I would imagine they
are… It would be really nice for her to have lots
of help with the girls. Lots of caring friends, to
come and visit and bring additional comfort, and
warmth, etc. I’m sure Penelope would enjoy lot of
cozy storytime reading! And hot chocolate and loving
thoughts about her Angel Dad, and how he is still
with her, with all his love.
Paul thanks for looking that up, and it does show the fine line between rain and snow….but where is that airport, do you know its elevation?
Maggie thanks for that info, this helps me understand what is happening between the ODOT/USFS mapping …dance.
Do you think it is common for people in the west to know to get maps from the Forest Service?
Leaving for awhile….thanks!
Paul, great information.
here in texas Im pretty sure we pass out at about 42 degrees.
604 – Mapper, short answer: some folks out here probably do, and some folks probably don’t know to get maps from the Forest Service.
Longer answer: I wish I could say that with so many “outdoorsy” folks that live out here and take advantage of all the beauty, that even the more casual of us are all super careful and know where to get the right maps and always make the effort to get them. But I know that we all don’t – or at least I haven’t. I have used a combination of my 1998 Rand McNally Road Atlas to get there and then general print outs from the particular Forest Service websites (one of which states pretty frankly “Please note: These maps are provided as a convenience for web users. It is strongly suggested you do not use these maps for making specific travel plans. Always consult an official road or Forest/Monument map, available at any Forest District and/or Monument office.”). It wasn’t until *after* I’d been out exploring (and even got a little lost in some pretty scary and iffy areas) that it even occurred to me to find a map to see just exactly where the heck I’d been – and I still haven’t actually bought the map, just found out where I could get it… (though I promise I will before summer). Maybe this is because I’m transplant here and am only casually “outdoorsy” instead of one who has grown up here and is more hard core, but I guess I’ve been guilty of thinking that since I’m just “casual,” the warnings didn’t apply to me. My thinking has changed after what happened to James and Kati and their girls.
RE: Upgrading Bear Camp Road – Just ran across this again, and it’s worth another read in terms of making changes before more unsuspecting people find trouble on Bear Camp Road:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/1207/sport/stories/bearcamp-freecol.htm
604/Mapper – not an airport, but the closest reporting station to Merlin, which is Sexton Summit (KSXT) at 3842 ft. elev. / They were lower than that, though the summit of Bear Camp is 4k+. You could extrapolate more exact temps by looking at Medford, but that is 48 miles from Galice. For some reason I can’t get historical for Grants Pass (ELEV 915) – it keeps defaulting to Sexton.
607 – Sorry, should have said Upgrading Bear Camp Road MAPS (not the road itself) – anyway, mapper, this sounds right up your alley of interest.
609 – Maggie, that is a great article and the first I have seen of it.
Also, thanks for your reflection on the situation of getting the forest service maps. I think I would be the same way, for the most part. I usually pick up maps if they are available at a rest stop or at a station if there is a forest or park station…if they are open. I am like you, have often gone back later and looked up…where have I been? And I think I have a better understanding than most about source data for maps and that a highway map or atlas is not a topo or forest service map.
Now, this is not something we learn at school either is it? My understanding of all this comes a little bit from college (being a geography major, not general college), but mostly from working in different levels of government and with maps.
Maybe high school geography classes should be more practical and go into this kind of thing. Hmmm. I don’t think I have the energy to take on the education system too!
I was happy to read about the woman in the article who noted that personal responsibility is also about realizing what is wrong with the information available to people, and trying to change it.
Thanks Paul for that info. I thought it said something “airport” at the top of the page!
Just ran across something else very interesting that I had not seen. Included in the essay (author retraces path, discusses, takes some pictures) is a photograph taken since this tragedy that shows just how easy it would be to miss the exit onto 42.
THERE WAS A BRANCH MOSTLY OBSCURING SIGN TO SR42 EXIT!!!
No wonder they missed that exit after leaving Denney’s.
http://www.drbilllong.com/CurrentEventsX/KimIII.html
(Don’t get me started about how horrible Portland, OR is about this as well)
611 – Maggie, excellent work finding and posting that photo! Very telling, isn’t it?
Sorry, should have referred to 612.
612. I wish I had more time to wade through that essay but I agree…that photo is….sad. It’s like so many things were lined up against the Kim’s.
604
Indeed, Penelope was tired and upset one late evening day last week. I had the Grandfatherly pleasure of reading her a children’s book, THE PEA BLOSSUM. Her tears quickly dried up. She then took my offer to rub her back during which time she fell fast asleep.
613 – Thanks, Madeleine. Yes, it is very telling! The article does say that there was another sign right at the exit itself, but as I think most would agree, sometimes that’s just not enough time to safely shoot onto the exit. The more information I find, the more it seems like almost anything that could go wrong did go wrong, and the Kim’s were just cut no slack or given any breaks, a situation that just kept snowballing and getting worse and worse at every point. Somehow, thankfully, the Kati and the girls were saved, but even that (the pings at just the right moment, John Rachor seeing James’ footprints) seems almost more like “luck” somehow.
612
I think Kati will find the posting regarding the obscuring sign most interesting. She has talked to me a little bit about missing the exit, but I’m sure this will come as a complete surprise.
Let me also say that seeking liability damage from anyone is something not on the table, and if I have any influence, never will be.
616 – Kati’s Dad, I am so, so very glad that Kati and her girls have such a supportive dad/grandad in their lives. You are being added to my own list of who I think is a hero in this situation for just being there and doing the right thing in the face of tragedy. I think a lot of us feel a little better knowing that Kati has such incredible support. If this had to all happen (which we all wish it hadn’t), at least she has someone like you – can’t ask for anything better.
Just for a different perspective on what’s being said in cyberspace, I googled the event and drew over 50 pages of links. I started just randomly sampling some of the blogs and comments, and found that they were overwhelmingly positive toward James and Kati. I was struck that so many people spoke from their hearts and told of how they were “drawn” into this situation and personalized it throughout and related to this family. They spoke of how they cried tears of relief when Kati and the girls were rescued and were devastated when James was found.
One man talked of his re-examination of the role of fate in our lives. Small decisions, timing, and many seemingly innocent things conspire to have life turned upside down at times and shake us to our very core. In scanning these articles and comments I am struck at how sometimes an event is so powerful in unexplained ways that it takes on a life of its own, transcending similar stories or situations for an unknown reason. That has happened here, and it’s amazing to see it from where we sit and be part of trying to prevent another family from losing a loved one. Allowing for the vast duplications on Google, it’s nice to know that most people seem to get it, that it could have been them or their loved ones. Sorry for the digression…
620 – Madeleine, thank you for sharing that. It really is good to know that most people do “get it.”
The new pages are live and linked below.
Please feel free to post your questions and suggestions. You may cut and paste from previous comments at the blog, and note you can search using your browser controls “find” and the screen name you used for your comments.
Questions for Kati Kim:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
620 I enjoyed reading your “digression.”
I certainly now know the meaning of bittersweet.
622
Thank so much, Joe. You are a good man.
Thank you, Joe! The second link is bringing me back to your main blog page.
Maggie: I’ve also seen many very heartfelt discussions of the tragedy. In fact, on my own blog, usually reserved for pictures of my little one for my far away family to see, I asked people to keep the Kim family in their thoughts when they were first missing. As the tragedy unfolded, my extended family got involved, including grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws, etc, in the south, northeast, midwest. Everyone was devastated by the outcome.
625 – And now the link does work – like magic, that
Thank you.
620- That was so beautifully said, Madeleine. I found
similar remarkable comments on many blogs from people,
even very those who said that they don’t usually feel
affected by ‘such things’. There is something truly very
transcendent and moving about this story, and I believe
it has to do with this special family, and with James,
and his superheroic efforts…
#596 Am just catching up for the evening. I couldn’t agree more, Mapper. I didn’t feel you were trying to be anyone’s thought police. I thought you were just trying to remind people to be thoughtful & considerate. I’m so glad you stated that Kati had broken no laws, has committed no crime and isn’t on trial for anything. Sometimes the demands for her answers has just been amazing to me. She owes no answers to anyone. Unfortunate circumstances thrust her into the limelight, she did not choose it & has not sought it.
Should she so choose to answer any questions, here or anywhere else, I think that should be kept in mind. Am so glad Joe is going to monitor the questions closely.
Dr. Flemming, I personsally like the idea of a documentary.
Regarding the tree limb over the sign, sometime back I posted a link to a comment I’d found somewhere else that pointed that out. Unfortunately, it was a critic of Katie’s & I posted a notice with my post that I was only posting it because of the mention of the branck over the sign. I’m on a different computer than my main one right now, but tomorrow I will try to find that link a repost it.
Oops, I meant to address Madeleine’s post. (620)
Joe – you have mail
The new pages are live and linked below.
Please feel free to post your questions and suggestions.
Questions for Kati Kim:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
629 – Frances, agree 110% with every word you said. I would interested to see that link as well. That was the first I’d remembered hearing it, but there’s been an incredible amount of information here, so it’s easy to miss something. The branch doesn’t seem quite as significant as many of the other things we’ve been discussing, but I do think it is an issue in general (Portland is horrible), and with all of our talk about signs, what good is any sign that can’t be well seen. I’d love to see the link if you can find it!
This should be it.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/11663313078330.xml&coll=7&thispage=1
http://www.oregonlive.com/forums/oregon/
13174.1.1.2. Actually
The exit off from 5 that the Kims missed is the one at Winston. It says something like Coos Bay, Winston and Hwy 42. There is a really long limb(s) that hangs out in front of it as you are southbound that covers the Hwy 42 part unless you are really paying attention, it would be easy to overlook.
We’ve got a LOT of new pictures from the Bear Camp Road area coming in that’ll be posted and linked up by tomorrow (Tuesday) morning and maybe later tonight. They were taken today.
Thats cool Joe!
So….is this page for general discussion now!? Or is the sheriff shutting this down now?
oh…hahah. just kidding, I didn’t mean the real sheriff, was referring to my earlier joke about joe’s bar and grill.
634 – Wow, Joe, that’s very wonderful to hear! Thanks to whoever took them.
Mapper
Very Nice
616- Kati’s Dad
Perfect!
I just went south on I5 by all the Hwy 42 Winston Dillard exits just after Roseburg a few days ago, and I didn’t notice any big limbs… just 3 big signs to hwy 42. Sorry about that.
re642: It was almost dark at the time I traveled, meaning there was a big moon out last Thursday night.
Joe, please leave the new forums for questions and suggestions up for a few days, I won’t be able to post on them for a couple of days. And I definitely want to. Thanks for everything, great job, Joe.
634/642 – Frances, thank you for posting that. I wasn’t able to get far enough back in the archive links, so I’m glad you posted the text of it. DH, maybe this has been taken care of since then?
The posting I found regarding the limbs over the sign was posted very immediately after the tragedy and this person was very criticial of the Kims, therefore I only posted the comment about the limbs as I felt that all in the post rrelavtive to the conversation at the time. I provided the link to the actual comment for anyone interested in reading it entirely. The limb could’ve been cut back and may have grown back some since. Is hard to know one way or the other.
Mapper – yes, this part of the blog remains for general discussion. But at the questions for Kati page any critical comments, discussions, long winded things will be removed.
D.H. You bet – those pages will be open for comments for several days at least.
Joe
I think I found the answer to my own question about the helicopter(s).
I was going back through some links and found this link I had posted on page 1. Evidently, the first helicopter wasn’t sent up until late Friday afternoon. Hadn’t the Kims already burned all their tires by then? If this is the time frame of when the first one was sent up, then the fire they built did them no good. Why wasn’t one sent up immediately to just at least do a run over to see if there was smoke from any fires the Kims may have built. If this was the case, they could’ve set the car on fire to attract attention and it would’ve made no difference.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/10/FAMILY.TMP
Fools Gold at 597: I imagine that cell phones use a similar handshaking scheme to initiate or receive a call. Digital communications simplifies things a lot because you don’t need very much signal, only enough to tell the difference between a digital 1 and a digital 0. Although the terrain between the Wolf Peak cell tower and the BLM intersection is very rough, cell phones generate fairly short waves that tend to bounce around and reflect off surfaces that are bigger than they are. These waves also tend to be reflected by the the atmosphere or bent by sharp objects like mountain ridges. Because the Wolf Peak cell tower apparently did not complete any additional handshakes with either of the Kim’s cell phones, however briefly, I tend to agree with you that the cell phones were inoperative or soon became so. Your thoughts about the hassles of traveling with children sound about right.
If the Portland Hotel also refused to provide the Kim’s cell phone numbers, I missed that detail. However, it sounds as if the cell phones were useless by the time that the Portland cops finally stirred themselves into action. Unless I missed something, the credit card records might have revealed purchases beyond the Roseburg Denneys and could have helped narrow the search.
It would be an interesting engineering challenge to design a cell antenna that only looks straight down. However, such a system might give SAR another “eye” on the terrain below. As you said, a ‘ping’ might help if that first day search plane gets a ‘ping’.
The new pictures from Galice and Bear Camp Road are up here:
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/
To comment about them copy the URL (address) from the picture and paste it into your comment. Use ONE URL per comment or your comment will be delayed.
650/Joe: There is a very unambigious sign that says “Road Closed” in the series. Is that new since the incident as a result of the slide ? I assume that it is. If it is NOT, where is it located ?
Paul 651 – I think that’s a NEW sign as is the slide pictured and perhaps a few other features.
The new pictures from Galice and Bear Camp Road are up here:
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/
If people think it would be helpful to leave comments right under the pictures, rather than by simply posting a URL here, let me know and I’ll set that up for tomorrow. Photobucket does not have that feature but I think I could pull the pix into Flickr and that would allow posting of comments. However it might make things more complicated to have yet another place where comments and questions are posted.
Brenda, JoCo stated that credit card was used also at Halsey OR to get gas between Albany and Eugene, giving them 300 miles of gas. It’s 220 miles from Halsey to Gold Beach on Bear Camp. I believe that’s all the other relevant credit card info we’ve heard here.
Thank you, Joe, for posting those pictures. Just my thought that it’s probably easiest to just copy/paste the URL here to keep the conversation in one place, but whatever works.
This does make me “feel” like going to the right would be the correct continuation of the road. Too bad the spray painting gets covered by snow…
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/THEintersectionFS23atBLM34-8-36.jpg
Joe,
please pass on a thank you for the pictures to whomever took them. We appreciate them and it must have taken alot of time to do that. So, THANK YOU!!!
Virtual cell phone ‘tower’ aboard a search plane:
It would be a matter of physically shielding the antenna from signals that were arriving at oblique angles or electronically logging but ignoring them. Since cell phone towers routinely calculate the AOA (Angle of Arrival) of a cell phone signal, I see no reason why an airborne cell phone “tower” could not do the same.
Practical matters: Not all people even subscribe to ‘texting’ capability and some phones don’t seem to have it. Ofcourse we all know that batteries may well be dead before the search even starts.
I’m a bit confused with the timeline but I think it might have been better for them to have spent a few cold nights and then to have burned the tires.
Does anyone know if they could calculate the effects on them of ‘a cold night’ versus ‘freezing to death’.
The turn onto peavine rd from BC looks like a hard right turn
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?action=view¤t=PeavinefromBearcamp.jpg
I wonder why it was considered by some a route the kims might have taken. To me, just imho, it is an obious turn OFF the route.
Maggie (655) that’s the picture that struck me as well and I’m pretty sure it’s the place most people think they headed off to the right instead of the left. I do think there is a little left arrow on bottom of that sign that says “Coast” but if it was snowing or raining very hard I’m wondering if they could have missed this and assumed the big road was the correct road. That would have gotten them into the “maze” of roads in which they were lost.
Any idea what the rest of the story is on these described as “backofsignonfs23NOTflipped” and “backofallMAYbeblockedsigns”? I wonder what the other side says.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/backofsignonfs23NOTflipped.jpg
(and the picture just after this one)
And yes, like Tara said, please pass along my thanks, too, to whoever took these – gives some additional perspective.
648- That’s a good point, Frances. I read that there is one
helicopter available to Josephine County for such search operations. I also saw a quote from Brian Anderson where
he discussed how it is expensive to use helicopters, which
makes me wonder if Josephine County has to pay for the
cost of that helicopter when they use it?
I wonder if they didn’t want to employ the use of that
helicopter and the funds involved if they weren’t sure
that the Kims were in their county. (Because later if
the Kim’s weren’t in their county and they spent the money
they would be criticized?)
I will try to find the exact quote and article.
I am also curious about another aspect of the search efforts
in the beginning. JoCoSAR said that before it became an
‘official’ SAR effort in Josephine County (on Sun.), they
were just doing a “courtesy clearing of roads.”
So if all the counties involved in the search were just
doing a “courtesy clearing of roads,” where was the
urgency of the search effort? Was it just dependent on
the mindset and resources of individual officials involved in various duties and locations within the general search area?
I think this is where the importance of the state review
comes in. If there is not a strong central command overseeing, coordinating and helping with funding when a search effort is going on in different counties, then the
effort may be “relatively” more weak and disorganized than
the urgency of the situation requires. It may even be too
dependent on the situations, attitudes, and funding of local officals and their counties.
I think there needs to be emphasis on cooperation between
state and local goverment and agencies in such emergency efforts, because the most important part is saving lives, not funding and power struggles. It seems that a more efficient system should be established to coordinate state and local SAR efforts, with mutual respect and devotion to duty being the main emphasis.
And it sounds like that’s what they’re going to be doing.
(Hopefully!)
659 – Tara, you’ve gained a little icon thingy
It’s kind of hard to tell, but to me it looked almost like at that point of the hard right in the picture link you posted that it’s a hard right onto Bear Camp Road from Peavine and that you were forced to turn either right or left if this is the same intersection:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/PeavineIntersection1stintersectiono.jpg
I’m not sure, just how it looked to me?
663 – Or maybe not, as I look at it again… This is why they do not let me make maps.
yep, fixed it.
thanks.
First, let me say thank you Joe for posting the pictures.
After I looked at them I was furious, I told myself wait till the end of the day to see what others post & after I calm down, but after going through them a second and third time, I just can’t, I’m so livid.
Now let me first explain something. James graduated high school in Louisville, KY, right, he graduated from Oberlin in Ohio, right?
Well, I’m from WV and let me say that all what I saw in these pictures looks just like WV, many a road I’ve traveled on all the days of my life, the same type of roads than anyone in these areas are familiar with traveling, this includes KY. & OH., it’s all essentially the same, especially WV & KY. For many, many people, on a daily basis. Had I missed my turn, had taken these roads even once before, and it was only raining, I would not have hesitated one bit to travel this route ESPECIALLy with a map pointing it was the best short cut to take. And all the rap about ‘ignoring four warning signs’ just … those signs say MAY time and time and time & again. There is not one single thing I saw in any of those signs that would give one any dire warning who has some familiarity with traveling mountain roads even in rain. I do not know what the weather reports were but unless a blizzard such as they ran into was forcast, I see no fault with their choices, given the pictures and the signs. And I’ve even cut them this slack, even if a blizzard had been forcast, they started the trip up the mountain only in rain and may well have thought they could out run the blizzard. Have done that too, well, if we just get to the top of the mountain, we’ll be ahead of it. THIS is the way travel here is, not as much now as we do have some interstates, but still a lot. When I was growing up we had to travel over three mountains just like those in the pictures to get to my grandparents house and let me tell you, those trips were made plenty of times in snow coverd roads and at night.
I UNDERSTAND the danger there NOW – would I have understood before this tragedy with only the info the Kims are stated as having & begin familiar with such roads. NO, NO.
Don’t blast me, I really don’t want to hear it. From all the talk of the roads warning signs and how horrible these roads are, I expected far, far, far worse.
I thought this might interest you–It is a discussion regarding James Kim’s Wikipedia entry. The Joe Duck blog is mentioned in the discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:James_Kim
The signs spray painted on THE intersection by Black Bar family(so stated John James) are a good indication of what some large signs should say at that intersection. BEFORE intersection signs should clearly indicate fork in road, left to coast, right is DEAD END. Looking at pics (which really altho they are good pics, there’s nothing like actually being there at night), the Kim’s may not have even noticed the fork and sign to left. Sign seems “after” the intersection which is ok once you turn to left, but sign explaning fork should be BEFORE intersection. However, Kati’s early account thru police/sheriff indicated to me that they did in fact travel left on FS23, then backed back down it to intersection, and for some reason took the spur road instead of continuing back down the way they came to Galice. That’s what it looked like to me. And if so, why? A big why. Trying to somehow make it to the coast despite the snow blocking FS23? Trying to find a place to rest without snow? Impossible to know at this point. Plenty of signs indicated possible blocking by snow on FS23 along the way.
650- Yes, Thank You So Much Whoever took those pictures!
That intersection between Bear Camp and 34-8-36 is
unbelievable!
Unbelievable! I cannot believe there is not better signage
there, especially if people make that mistake all the time,
and have for years!
Who wouldn’t think the main road went off to the right,
unless they came to a virtual standstill to read that
tiny sign in the middle.
And those snowdrift signs are “wimpy” and not at all indicative of the real potential dangers ahead.
The new ‘Road Closed – Dangerous Conditions Ahead’ sign looks great.
But it is sad, that it took what happened to James to have these changes be made.
And it is even more sad and bittersweet, that it is such
a truly beautiful area…
670 – DH, this is why I wonder if the Kim’s only *thought* that that had continued onto Bear Camp Road at that intersection but actually took that right *thinking* that it was on Bear Camp Road and then perhaps actually did the backing up on one of the other numerous spur roads off of that BLM road and somehow got confused (?). Pure speculation here, just my inclination/hunch. If that’s not a question included once Ellen has pulled together her list from all these posts, that would be one of mine: How certain is it that they ever actually did get onto 23 at that intersection? I could be completely wrong, but it would be interesting to know if Kati does decide to discuss it at some point.
670) Really, for our purposes I’m not sure that the “why” is important. Mark the intersection clearly, put gates in strategic places all year, that kind of thing is all we can do. We can only do what is humanly possible to protect people, and I think that will be done.
Joy 669 – thanks for that note, I had not realized that the story was generating so much heat even in *how it’s getting listed* at Wikipedia. That’s very unusual and reflects how emotional people are about all this.
671 Lisa,
I think the road closed signs are because there was a slide in.
The signs say MAY over and over again,
“Unbelievable! I cannot believe there is not better signage
there, especially if people make that mistake all the time,
and have for years!”
“And those snowdrift signs are “wimpy” and not at all indicative of the real potential dangers ahead.”
Amen.
672) Maggie: Well, I can go back and reference all that, or not. But the account said went as far as Bear Camp Viewpoint (6-7 miles beyond intersection), had to back down, then turned onto spur/side/logging road.
re676: Bear Camp Viewpoint is on FS23, almost if not AT the highest point.
#662 Lisa,
I haven’t commmented much one way or the other about what JoCo has posted because I wasn’t able to be here much during the times she was posting and haven’t gotten caught up with all of her post yet.
I do know she said that Katie likely didn’t hear some of the helicopters until they were dirtecly overhead. If the first copter didn’t go out until late Fri. afternoon, and the Kims stated they hear copters in the distance that’s why they burned all the tires, trying to create enough smoke to bring the copters in their direction, then the copters they heard in the distance weren’t looking for them at all, it was normal copter traffic. If this is the case, it just gets sadder and sadder.
I’ve got to go, between fury and even more saddness, I need a break before I start spouting things I’ll have apologize for again!!!
Dutch Brothers is due to be delivered Fri. 5th
Good sign/bad sign?
Will need strong cup of coffee for relief or more fury?
Time will tell, I just hope when I come back there is some info that had come up that makes me feel a little better.
669 – Joy, wow, our group is a piece of cake compared to the gang at Wiki! I had no idea what was involved in publishing something there, that’s an eye opener. I liked the part where somebody says the timeline is probably accurate because it came from a newspaper article, not exactly the experience we’ve had here.
676 – DH, no need to reference – what I was trying to say is that I’ve read the exact same account in many places, too, so it does sound like that is definitely the account given. I’ve just wondered whether Kati remembered it correctly because of confusing those roads are, especially when lost and in the dark, and I’ve had a hard time determining which similar type roads I’ve taken even in daylight. Not even saying my question/hunch/speculation is correct, just something I’ve wondered after seeing that intersection despite what I’ve read, too. You are absolutely right about what the account said.
676-677/D.H.- That is exactly what I remember of Kati Kim’s account as well, and yes, Bear Camp Viewpoint is very near – if not at – the ridge summit. She also referenced James having to open the car door so he could back down, which fits with Bear Camp. The part I cannot make sense out of is – if they were succesful at backing all the way back to that junction, some 6 or 7 miles, why didn’t they just keep backing up on the route they came in on as opposed to going down a road that could lead anywhere ? Please – I’m not criticizing – I just am trying to understand what happened.
* D.H. – did you ever get my mail? *
678- Yes, Frances, I the helicopter timeline is not
entirely clear. I will see what I can do to find more
information.
From memory it seems that the first one sent out was
(National Guard?) affilitated and sent out from Gold Beach to clear Bear Camp on Friday afternoon.
That may have been the first helicopter they heard.
It sounds like they may have burned the tires to
attract attention before they actually started hearing
helicopters. They probably hoped someone, anyone – might
see the smoke:
“On Wednesday, Nov. 29, the family ran out of gas and started a fire with magazines, but the available wood was frozen, heavy and hard to gather. The next day, they turned to a spare tire for an afternoon fire. On Friday, they removed the four tires from their car and, by 11 a.m., had stoked a blaze they hoped would attract attention. By afternoon, their fire was out. They heard the chop of a helicopter in the distance. Then the sound grew softer and disappeared.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news/1165652726218920.xml&coll=7
681 – I’m inclined to go with Kati’s account only because in it she states they made Bear Camp Summit. Bear Camp Summit has a small stopping area and a large sign, so even in darkness and snow you would generally know that you made it there. Why would she say they made that landmark otherwise? IF they made the summit, they were well into the snow zone, but looking at the weather, the barometer dropped quite a bit that afternoon into the evening. They may have had snow mixed with rain on the way up, a very managable kind of situation – then the big front hits dropping the freezing level several thousand feet relatively quickly, and they are at the top of the pass in a whiteout. Total speculation, but it would explain why they kept going, then attempted a retreat….but I still can’t reconcile that with turning down the BLM fork.
682 Kati and James had their reason(s), compelling I think, for stopping where they did, but I hope you’ll understand I think that information should come directly from Kati. I don’t want to take away from her story; but more importantly I am stickler, as I think she will be, on accuracy of facts so I don’t want to get anything wrong.
685 – Thank you, Kati’s Dad. Makes sense.
Joe, can you tell us where this picture was taken?
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?action=view¤t=34-1.jpg
Lisa- was wondering that myself..
688 – Tara, I’m jealous – I’m about to move my whole blog over to WordPress… And I wonder where that picture was taken, too… It’s named “34″ and the one named “34-1″ is where the spray painting is, so is that part of the BLM Road at another point, but with gate??
Lisa (687) I don’t know but will try to find out.
Maggie, where’s your blog??… and wordpress is great! if you want to email it to me:
harley168@hotmail.com
690- Thank you Joe!
What a devoted mystery photographer!
685- Hi Kati’s Dad! That makes sense.
And whatever their exact reasons were, I can see why
turning onto 34-8-36, it seemed as if it was a major
road, where they thought someone passing by would find
them sooner.
That Bear Camp/BLM 34-8-36 fork really needs to have
some bigger clearer signage.
34-8-36 Also needs some big signs on it alone to identify
that it is just a logging road and not a thru route.
(692) If I were driving that road and saw a narrow road heading upward and a wider road heading down…in those conditions I think it is very clear to see why they made that. I would have done the same thing.
692- addition
At this point, it even seems like it would be a good
idea to put one of those big “WRONG WAY” signs on
BLM 34-8-36.
That alone wouldn’t stop people from getting potentially
stuck up on Bear Camp, but it would help keep people
from getting lost on 34-8-38.
691- Tara, I like your icon too!
694- correction
That last reference was for 34-8-36.
693- Howdy glenn!
691 – Tara, my very humble (and actually probably only interesting to me, but it entertains me) blog is at http://maggiesmind.blogspot.com/. WordPress seems pretty cool, though, and it’s worked well for putting up with the thousands of comments we’ve left here – impressive.
693 – Glenn, nice to see you again after your haitus.
Agreed, something at that particular intersection of FS23 and the BLM road really, really needs to be done. I still just can’t really understand why it hasn’t when it’s so evident that it’s been a problem common enough that directions were spray painted on the road (broken record, I know, but I still just can’t imagine it’s that hard to have corrected this).
(696) I am patiently waiting for the 5th!
697 – I have no patience.
Paul682: No Paul, I did not get your email, even in my spam filter. Nowhere to be found!
685Kati’sDad: I’m sure one reason could be children needing attention. Children could cause any number of things to happen. Obviously, could be any number of reasons we have not even considered. To me at this point important thing is to improve signage, which we can do without knowing any reasons. Signage and gates and a slide are taking care of problem now. Consistant signage and gates in the long term are a key.
699 D.H. – weird, I used the one Glenn fwded (your one at actionnet) and it did not reject…out floating somewhere in the cyberspace I guess.
You missed nothing earth shattering.
Did you ever drive any of the roads like you were going to ?
698 – Me too…Murphy’s Law being Murphy’s Law, you know it won’t be the 5th, just to drive us all around the bend.
Did anybody ever ascertain why Spencer disappeared ?
Am I correct that most people think they went off here:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/THEintersectionFS23atBLM34-8-36.jpg
Though some think it was here at Peavine:
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?action=view¤t=PeavinefromBearcamp.jpg
(703) I have been under that assumption the first link is where they made the wrong turn.
703 – Joe, I do tend to think that they did go off at the first picture link, but I thought that JoCoSAR & RRR were speculating that they took the Peavine route much earlier on than that SF23 & BLM intersection as a way of even getting onto Bear Camp Road due to detours.
(Well, aren’t you special getting to post two links in one post by moderating yourself
)
703/Joe: Review my post 684 – I think they went LEFT at the fork, made the summit, then backed down & went right based on what Kati recounted.
The theory greatly interests me, and I believe many have embraced it, that they NEVER went left at all but instead proceded right at the fork right from the get go…but that hypothesis does not mesh well with Kati’s account of James backing the car DOWN nor of her saying they made Bear Camp Summit.
Peavine intrigued me, but also seems to not mesh as well with her account….her account being what was relayed by OSP in the lengthy press conference the day after they found James.
705 – Sorry, that wasn’t quite clear how I said it maybe. I’m thinking it might have been both – first the Peavine detour early on which led to Bear Camp Road (per JoCo/RRR Google Earth path), then following that along further until they hit that FS23/BLM intersection where they may have gone right.
706 – Paul, you may very well be correct. Even with my hunch/inclination, I could honestly see it being either way – or even some other route/path not even considered.
Does anyone have a link to any video from that long press conference ? It was on KGW.com but is no longer that I can find…or a complete transcript ?
In any event, it is second hand…i.e. the OSP officer recounting what Kati said, so there could easily be misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation in parts of it.
705/Maggie – we all knew all along that Joe was special, are just now figuring that out?
Paul and Maggie thanks for reminding me that both things could have happened either at Peavine or this NF23 junction – Kati’s memory of “backing up” would certainly be a strong one.
709 – Paul, I’ve looked on kgw.com, too. Curiously, if you still wanted to see about Keiko (1998) or New Carissa (1999), the two stories that I was so sick of hearing about every day for years on end it seemed, the video is in their archives. I couldn’t find any of the videos about the Kim’s, though, either. Maybe someone saved it and could post it somewhere?
I’m away for a few hours so please … behave?
I did a multimedia search on KGW… try this for all the videos available on James Kim…
http://www.kgw.com/blcS.sc?search=james+kim&cat=multi
This link is to the actual conference from OSP detailing time line and what info kati gave. When I double checked the link it opened windows media player, so you might need that or just search for the timeline video inthe link gayle posted above..
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/makeASX.php?title=www.kgw.com/120706_timelineraw.wmv&adurl=adcontent/hawkboxing_tnfA0575_15_300.wmv
Nice job, Gayle & tara! I thought they had to still be there somewhere but didn’t see them. It will be interesting to take a look at them tonight now that more information has been floating around.
Joe, when have any of us ever not behaved?
676/D.H. – In post 676 you reference them making the viewpoint on Bear Camp, and I remember seeing or hearing that somewhere else too but cannot remember the source. It is not referenced in the OSP video link above. Also, in referencing James backing up, they just say “backed-up”, not the more telling “backed-down”. Can you remember where you saw or read the reference to them making the Bear Camp viewpoint ? It only matters in regards to the theory that they never turned up BC at the fork, but rather went right from the get-go.
716)Paul: Will try to do that, however… I’m still on vacation with my family, will be returning home tomorrow, when activities with research will be much easier.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL&hw=kim&sn=008&sc=634
re716 & 717: SFGate.com
“Their ordeal started innocently on a mountain road the family thought would be a shortcut, but things quickly spiraled out of control, said Ryan Lee, 30, of Portland, who was one of the first people Kati Kim called after she was rescued.
At first it was only raining, she told Lee, but snow began falling as they got higher in the mountains. She said the road was pretty bad and at one point she and her husband had to get out and remove rocks from the road. They soon realized they weren’t going to make it over the mountain and decided to turn around and drive back to a lower elevation to get out of the snow. Around the Bear Camp Viewpoint high in the mountains, the Kims sidetracked onto a spur road in an attempt to turn around and traveled about 2 miles, Hastings said.
Kim told Lee that once they were out of the snow, and in the rain, they parked, leaving the motor running so they could use the heater.
“They thought they could spend the night and somebody would find them in the morning,” Lee said. “But then, when they woke up, it was snowing quite heavily. They were stuck.”
By then they didn’t have enough gas to get back to Grants Pass.”
Wow… I think I’m confused again! – D.H.
718)I’m not convinced that this is the only source, will look further.
re718) Is that even possible to get on a spur road around the viewpoint??!!
To me, every time the story goes thru another person, it loses something. Like a bad game of “gossip” where you start the message and whisper it to person next to you, then when the message goes around the circle and gets back to originator, the message is completely changed and messed up. In other words, until we hear this from the source… it won’t be reliable whatsoever.
That’s where I saw it, the Chronicle…but again, 3rd hand…still, for a stranger to reference the Bear Camp Viewpoint is highly unusual. I thought I read somewhere else they ultimately turned around on the 2 mile spur ref. above and got back onto BC, but at this point I concede I too am confused and wondering if they did not turn right at the fork after all.
The viewpoint is 4600′ – part of me wonders – if snow was a problem how they ever could have, or would have even tried, to make it that high. BC climbs very steeply much of the way as you wind your way up to the viewpoint. It seems they would turn around long before they got that high for no other reason than the steepness, coupled with snow, would make it excessively treacherous.
What is the elevation at the fork of the BLM road and Bear Camp ?
721- EXACTLY! – agree 200%
Quoting “Rogue Fly” from Mail Tribune forum pg. #20. Rogue Fly is a local. This page on MT forum
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=380&p=15584&#entry15584
has some interesting comments and photos.
“That storm was not early, not even close. Normally, you can’t even make it to the Way Out Saddle road (the road they turned off Bear Camo on to) this time of year.
The sign at the bottom is right after you leave Merlin. The one at the top, is at the intersection of Bear Camp and Way Out Saddle rd.
Oh, the top pic, is a bad pic, the sign is less than 3 feet from the road. It really is impossible to miss, you have to drive RIGHT by it. It looks harder to see in the pic than it really is, it’s an optical illusion. In fact, it’s the only sign that they actually saw.
The second pic. is at the turn onto Bear Camp from Merlin-Galice Rd. The other pic, is a sign they would not have seen, it is at a junction of another road, that is actually farther up the road than the Way out Saddle road, it’s right at the summit. It’s at the junction or Bear Camp and Burnt Ridge. If they made it to that sign it’s even more tragic, as that is the highest point. The Bear Camp Viewpoint is about a half mile from that sign, then it’s all down hill to Agness from there.”
(referencing photos 2 posts above Rogue Fly post by Javajabbers)
722 – Answered my own question..Google Earth says fork is at 3535′
(718) Who is Ryan Lee and why is he talking to the press?
“About a dozen miles up Bear Camp Road, the Kims took a fork to the right, which is BLM road 34-8-36. They drove about 15 miles down that road, got stuck in snow, freed themselves, turned around, and stopped for the night, afraid they would run out of gas.”
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120806_news_kim_vandal_sought_.b575495.html
It just depends on which news report you read. Impossible to know without hearing directly from the source.
726)Lee is a friend of the Kim’s. He may have been the friend interviewed on TV, the interviews were aired over and over. He may have been the friend the Kim’s lunched with in Portland before heading south on I5.
Also, the article says Ryan Lee was one of the first people(friend) Kati called after she was rescued.
I wish someone had pics of the road we think they took. Most of the pics are of peavine or Bear Camp rd. It would be nice to see pics where James left the road plus some samples of the logging roads, and if there are any signs on them.
The CNN video follows the road all the way to where they found the car – at least I thought it did. Have never seen much except distant air shots of the spot where James left the road, and virtually nothing up close down in the drainage.
(731) Maybe after the 5th, JoCoSAR and others can share photos from the search. The drainage area would give perspective for all of us. Otherwise I don’t think we will see any photos of that area until the spring.
We still haven’t confirmed which way they go to Bear Camp…isn’t that correct?
Maybe Kati or her dad could clarify that one point…which exit they took.
There are two they most likely would have taken, the most direct being the Merlin exit. You can take one exit before that and get there, but you ultimately end up in Merlin even if you do that route. Unless they took some very convoluted route that only locals would know, they had to go through Merlin to get to the junction for Bear Camp (just before Galice).
This info about the pix just in from somebody who knows that area well:
659 & 660:
At the intersection of Peavine and Galice Creek Road it would be logical to turn right onto Peavine Road as the sign points to Gold Beach/Agness. That is at the very bottom, only 1.8 miles from Merlin Galice Rd. There’s no signage about the road further ahead either.
Also, if they drove ahead and over the Galice Creek itself – see the photo of the Chrome Ridge to the left — Galice Cr. continues, although a HARD right where there is now a slide.
684 – Paul, if Kati referenced the “summit” as opposed to the “viewpoint,” shortly after you turn onto BCR from Peavine, it appears as though you are at the “summit,” when in fact you are miles away.
Joe – the theory of driving to the viewpoint and backing back down is 100% unrealistic to me. That road was blocked well before the viewpoint on Thanksgiving day by snowdrifts and blocked at milepost 18 on the 1st.
687 – that photo is the gate just past the fateful intersection of the FS23 and 34-8-36. This is a photo of the gate that BLM said was locked but vandalized, then turned out it was never locked.
703 – Joe – #1 is “The fateful intersection.”
#2 is the junction of BCR and Peavine (at the top). Standing on BCR looking down Peavine…
707 – Maggie is correct.
Wow, that picture that Joe posted on the Kati question page tells it all. No wonder they took the wrong turn.
re718: A “summit” could have been on spur roads or anywhere, going 2 miles down a spur road may not have been a spur off of Bear Camp, but a “spur off of a spur”. Beginning to look to me like they just took right fork onto 34-8-36 at intersection with Bear Camp and did not continue up Bear Camp. Or they went up Bear Camp until they couldn’t go any further(not all the way to Viewpoint) and then turned around on spur or backed up. I’m sure the “knowledgable parties” on post 734 are correct in that they did not make it all the way to Bear Camp Viewpoint.
I think I’m going to wait and run with #721 in the interim…’tis making my head spin…
re735) The intersection pic shows a sign on left side of road before actual intersection for FS23(Bear Camp). That sign should have been visible while driving at night, and could have caused a stop to figure out the correct road at fork. However, FS23 road to left at fork may not have been visible to them? Possible “oh knowledgable ones”?
In fatigue and frustration, at that point in trip at intersection, nothing may have truly been logical unfortunately.
re737) Yes Paul, my head spinneth also.
Looked at pics (thank you for sharing them) but just reading posts has made my had spin. I’ll just wait until Kati is ready to tell her story rather than get vertigo trying to figure out every possible way.
738 – …and we’re scrutinizing all these signs in daylight, with detailed explanations, with no precipitation, without being fraught with worry because it’s snowing outside and we have our most precious cargo in the back….and WE’RE still confused…imagine being them.
741 – Very good point, Paul. This is part of why I wonder though, too, whether even Kati will feel certain about exactly which roads they did or did not take. I hope I’m wrong, and maybe I am – I just know that I’ve had trouble remembering even under daylight and much less stressful conditions because so many of those type of roads just look so much the same, especially at night, with rain/snow, and what must have been heaps of stress and worry. How very, very scary it must have been.
741- Agreed. The other thing I’ve noticed in a lot of the
pictures is how many signs there are in so many places.
It’s hard, because if there are so many small to medium
sized signs after awhile, especially in the dark, it
would seem hard to keep up with them all.
And there are lots of little signs attached to big
signs. There are too many examples to post them all.
Some of them were pertinent to their situation, but
many others were not – so I would imagine those vague warning signs would just blend into the mix in many places.
And this:
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?action=view¤t=SecondSignonMerlinGaliceRoad.jpg
Does not look like a warning sign.
I think the warning signs also need to be separate, larger,
and a more alarming color like orange – with some reflective
materials and lettering, to make them stand out more -
especially at night.
I sent the photo around to several friends and neighbors and ask them the following question:
In a blinding snowstorm would you choose the narrow up heading up in elevation or the wider road to the right?
All of them picked the wider road to the right.
I think the following as written below is accurate. I don’t specifically recall Kati saying anything about it snowing heavily that first night. Keep in mind that I have not been detail oriented. As the Dad, I was not interested in knowing so much what happened as I was in providing support and giving thanks that they were not all lost.
She did say once to me in sweet understatement, “I’ve never been so cold in my life.” I thought that overall she had an amazingly good attitude, although her grief over the loss of James was obvious and ongoing.
I been telling folks who ask how I am doing, “I turned 56 last week, but I swear I feel 80 years old after this past month’s trials.” My wife Sandy feels prematurely aged also.
_______________________________________________________
from 718
Kim told Lee that once they were out of the snow, and in the rain, they parked, leaving the motor running so they could use the heater.
“They thought they could spend the night and somebody would find them in the morning,” Lee said. “But then, when they woke up, it was snowing quite heavily. They were stuck.”
By then they didn’t have enough gas to get back to Grants Pass.”
745 – Thank you, Kati’s Dad. That made so much sense to me whenever I’ve seen it as such a smart thing to do by getting out of the snow and stopping instead for the night in the rain. Being lost and tired, it would seem that some rest and daylight would surely help the situation. How could James and Kati have known that they’d be trapped in snow if they’d deliberately parked in the rain?
I can’t fathom for one minute how cold it must have been or how hard all of this has to have been for everyone close to James or Kati. While James was still missing I know that many were sending “warm” thoughts so strongly as if by telepathy they would reach him and keep him warm, and I think many of us continue to do so for all of you.
(745) I have been asking people’s opinion of the photos today and getting a pretty consistent response…I was wonder what you felt about the photos if you have had a chance to look at them yet?
Thanks…
743 – Lisa, I agree that the sign does not look like a warning sign for many reasons, including the fact that since the photo’s description sounds like it is still on Merlin Galice Road but the sign shows Bear Camp Road / FS23. Maybe it is already Bear Camp Road or maybe not yet (I know this has been discussed at length pages back – can’t remember, and it’s not the point if a driver wouldn’t know either), but what if it’s not clear what the name of the road is that you are on?? For folks not from around there, “Bear Camp Road” is a bit ambiguous. If it’s “this road” that’s dangerous and doesn’t have a clear name, then the sign should indicate “this road….” with whatever warning.
744 – Very interesting, Glenn. I’m not surprised, but it is nice to have the perspective of folks who have not been staring at such pictures intently for weeks like many of us have. Thank you for sharing that.
D.H. at 654 said: “Brenda, JoCo stated that credit card was used also at Halsey OR . . . . [ ] I believe that’s all the other relevant credit card info we’ve heard here.”
Yes, but that information came long afterward and far too late to help to rescue the Kim Family. If the Portland cops had obtained the credit card information on Thursday or Friday of the first week, it might allowed SAR to narrow the search a little more. But my points were that (1) I never read that the Portland hotel refused to give out the Kim’s cell phone numbers and (2) That by the time that the cops asked the hotelfor cell phone numbers (if they actually did), it was apparently too late for these numbers to help.
As you note, credit card information might have provided other clues if it had been obtained in a timely manner.
If I buy a hotel, do I get to overrule the cops, too?
749 – Brenda, take a look at page two of comments, Joe’s comment 690 and Oregonian article for more about the hotel not releasing the credit card info. It’s been discussed much on pages back, but that one kind of pulls it together fairly well. The cell numbers would have been known by friends/family, but the credit card info wouldn’t have been and definitely helps.
748 – That particular sign is on the Merlin/Galice Rd., not on Bear Camp. There are signs identical to it on Bear Camp at various intervals as outlined in a previous post whose number eludes me at the moment. In looking at the photos you can tell Merlin/Galice Rd. because it is two lanes with a center stripe and white stripes on the outside of each lane.
The Bear Camp / BLM network of roads generally have no striping of any kind except in a few places and are narrower.
Lisa at 671 said: “Who wouldn’t think the main road went off to the right . . . .”
This brings up an interesting point: In terms of the intended use of these roads, the BLM (right-hand) fork IS the main road. That is the branch that is used by loggers, log truck drivers, land managers, lodge owners, and many local residents and other recreational users. The relative importance of these roads is demonstrated by their relative conditions. Clearly the BLM road is more substantial and was built to handle heavier traffic. If I had been in that vehicle, I probably would have taken the right-hand turn and, even if I initially turned left, I might have soon assumed that I made a mistake and returned. I can easily see how the Kims might have made that same decision.
Peavine Route: Unless I misunderstood JoCoSAR’s point, she was wondering if the Kims took the Peavine route shortly after they left Galice and before they reached the intersection with Bear Camp Road. Apparently the Peavine route was part of a temporary detour to Bear Camp Road and JoCoSAR was speculating that might have been misled up this route by old detour signs. I am intrigued by this theory because it might have bypassed some of the signs that people assume that the Kims saw while going up Bear Camp Road. Maybe they didn’t ever have a chance to see some of these signs.
(752) Nice summary Brenda…I think you nailed it.
Maggie – re-read your 661, and then look at both those signs again, especially the one in the second picture:
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?action=view¤t=backofallMAYbeblockedsigns.jpg
We are looking at the back side of these two signs…they can be flipped over to read “Road IS blocked etc.” – but they were never flipped over !!!…i.e. on front read “may be” on back read “IS”….
…or did someone else catch this already and I missed it.
Ok, am much calmer now.
After looking at the pictures and trying to disregarding any info about the roads I’ve learned here, had it been myself, I would have assumed that following the road to the right was the correct way to go, as the road to the left looks more like a turn off of the main road other than the the continuance of the main road, especially in rain and dark.
I think the main point which can be gotten from all of this is that it’s quite easy to see how the Kims got legimately and innocently lost, due to the confusion of the roads and lack of signs, signs which do not display adaquate warnings, maps with missing important information or lack of information, that it wasn’t neglience nor stupidity.
Another thing I think should be added to what ever signs are posted in the future that rain can quickly turn to snow the higher one goes. Yes, we do have mountains here & some good ones, but the height of the mountains in Oregan are higher than here and of course the higher height means worse weather. I think this would be especially important for ‘city dwellers’ going through the area.
Each and every one here has done such an amazing job.
Another thing which keeps sticking in the back of my mind regarding the search for James, when they were tracking the path James was taking, wasn’t Mr. Kim quoted as saying, he knew what he son was trying to do – did they pay attention to what Mr. Kim felt James was trying to do?
FYI – http://news.com.com/2061-10786_3-6146704.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-20&subj=news
There is a James Kim benefit auction starting tomorrow (Wed). Follow the link for more details.
754 – Paul, that’s why I was kind of hoping to hear more of the story on these to see if I was seeing correctly or missing something. Crazy.
755 – Agree 100%. Gayle mentioned the same exact thing about if it’s raining here, it’s snowing up there. I say that every time it comes up because I do think it is such a valid point and such simple words paint a good picture.
757 – Thank you, Glenn. I heard about the auction but hadn’t run across a link.
755- I agree Frances…
756- That is an interesting question.
745- Kati’s Dad
I’m sure with time, and sleep and rest, you and your wife will feel back to your young selves again!
In the meantime, I think you more both more than deserve
lots of extra TLC, and indulging in your favorite ways
you like to relax. Even getting massages would be great
for both of you! (Especially if you like them!)
Kati is truly so lucky to have you both! I’m sure you
mean the world to her!
(754) Paul why do you think the signs were flipped? I didn’t think they were.
Well, group, I’ve just sent my draft set of questions for Kati off to Joe and Kati’s Dad for a first reading. As soon as we do a bit more editing, it will be ready to share here (I hope). Thanks for your patience.
I see that you’ve already come up with some more questions while I’ve been finishing the document. Seems my work is never done!
754 & 758 / Well, that would have solved all kinds of problems…I really doubt the Kim’s would have continued past signs that said “Road IS blocked” !…and look at the description on the jpg – “back of ALL MAY be blocked signs”…(my Caps emphasis added to “all”, and I separated the words). They HAVE signs with stronger wording, they have signs that likely would have stopped the Kims…they just weren’t flipped over like they should have been.
760- typo
“In the meantime, I think you both more than deserve…”
762- Ellen
Thank you So Much for all your work and dedication!
761 – Glenn / Perhaps my initial entry was unclear…I did not mean to imply they had been flipped, hence my anger and frustration…the signs had the wording they needed – on the back side of them…the front of the sign says “May”, on the reverse is the stronger, unequivocal “IS”….
763- Very Interesting!
763 – Paul, exactly! That was what I thought I was seeing, too, so that’s why I put it out there asking exactly what the other side said because from the photo description, it sounded like the part facing drivers that they would see said “may be” while we could very clearly see that the back said “is” (as may be and is relate to road closure). I didn’t want to assume, so I asked, but if you saw the same thing I did, then I think we might be onto something. Un-be-lievable. And if those pictures were taken just yesterday, does that mean that still today they say “may be”!!!??? I hope we are just seeing those wrong somehow… (hence my question).
762 – Ellen, thank you. What a huge undertaking to wade through so very many posts. It must have taken forever!
766 – Heartbreaking are the words that come to my mind…it’s just heartbreaking.
767/Maggie – I didn’t catch it at first…but then I saw the “IS”, but couldn’t figure out why the post ran through the sign….then in the other picture someone is pulling the sign back with their hands to show the “IS”…then I caught the caption on the jpg. I’m a little slow, it takes me a while, you’re the sharp lady who caught it, not me.
765- “Is” would be an improvement. Still, for me the shape, color, and overall design of the signs seems lacking. I thought most warning signs were diamond shaped.
The new white large rectangular “Road Closed,” etc.
looks like it would be effective, but you have to wonder how it would catch your eye when driving by. I think that
dark orange color is a good color – the color they use
to warn of construction on roads. I always notice those.
I never thought I’d think so much about signs!
(772) That is a sign in itself
(768) Thanks. You don’t want to even ASK how long it took me. My family stopped talking to me about 24 hours ago. I think they forgot I was here! But truly, I was happy to do it. I wrote it as a narrative outline — somewhat conversational in tone, rather than lawyer-like. At present its 2400+ words, five pages. There are forty questions or topics covered. And I really tried to ask only those things that were within the scope of Kati’s POV.
769 – Paul, I agree, it’s heartbreaking when you add up all of the things that likely influenced the outcome of this incident: innocent delays getting on the road, branches possibly hiding part of the first Hwy. 42 turnoff sign, the hotel not cooperating with credit card/phone numbers, the map not indicating the gravity of the possible road conditions, the signs not being turned around, the road not being clearly marked for the coast vs. logging roads, no helicoptors up due to the cellphone map not being clearly understood, and on and on.
It reminds me of reading over reports of air crashes, the small details that piled up to cause disaster. Just when you want to yell “couldn’t they have caught just ONE break?”, we remember how they did a first rate job of keeping alive and caring for their kids for so long. And then James’ incredible journey with help so near yet so far. No matter how many times I try to rewrite the ending, it doesn’t work, he still didn’t make it. So we are left with knowing we must help make changes, that has to be the only possible reason for all this to have happened. 34 times in 8 years people got stuck up there leading to SARs! And countless others probably got themselves unstuck with luck and made it out before anyone reported them. But this time there is widespread outrage, so let’s hope it helps make the difference. Sorry to everyone for making some long-winded comments here, but this story has so many levels and nuances that just never cease to amaze me. You all are doing such a top notch job of gathering info and giving ideas and time, I can’t praise you enough.
774 – Wow, Ellen. I knew it would be quite the list and that a lot of ground had been covered here, but sheesh, that’s amazing! Sincerely, thank you.
It would be interesting to find out (but I don’t know
if it would be possible) if they still have a lot of
people who miss the signs and get stuck up there even
when they say, “Is”…
Time for me to call it a night…
Goodnight All!
777 – It should be part of any SAR records and reports to note (check boxes or whatever) any vandalism to signs, gates, etc. so that those (and any other) possible contributing factors can be tracked.
Maggie at 750): I know about the Portland hotel and the credit cards, but their refusal to provide cell phone numbers is new to me and I keep waiting for a source. However, as Fools Gold and I have posited, the cell phones may well have been useless by the time that the Portland cops stirred themselves into action.
775 – Madeleine, that summed up how I feel, too. If the Kim’s could have just been cut some slack at any one point… It’s like each day there’s one more thing we learn may have worked against them. The more we hear, the more incredible it seems to me that Kati and the girls (very thankfully) made it.
779 – Brenda, here is a link to an article that mentions the hotel not giving up the cell phone records:
http://www.oregonlive.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/print217893.html
An art auction is being held to benefit the Kim Family (via Boingboing):
http://kimfamilyauction.typepad.com/
Bidding starts tomorrow.
I don’t know anything about this project but offer the link in case anyone wants to participate.
Nice find, Madeleine. That’s exactly the one Joe copied/pasted in his comment that I was trying to find
I just checked my email and I received this from Glen Hammer with ODOT. I paisted all my emails to him and from him so everybody could see. TripCheck is a map of Oregon with Road Cams on it and it shows a light green road for Bear Camp. This is the road they are going to take off. Bob
Bob,
We will be removing that graphic (light green road) from TripCheck.
Thanks
Glen
——————————————————————————–
From: Robert Hollenbeck [mailto:bsh1@charter.net]
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 9:55 AM
To: HAMMER Glen A
Subject: Re: REAGRING YOUR EMAIL MESSAGE TO US
Glen, Please let me know what ODOT’s plans are for the Bear Camp Road. Thank you. Bob Hollenbeck
—– Original Message —–
From: HAMMER Glen A
To: Robert Hollenbeck
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: REAGRING YOUR EMAIL MESSAGE TO US
Mr. Hollenbeck,
I think the road that you are referring to is the seasonal closure at McKenzie Pass. This is a state highway. All of the darker green roads on the map are state highways and we do report on these roads. Sorry for the delay in my response, just getting back in after Christmas vacation.
Glen Hammer
TripCheck.com
——————————————————————————–
From: Robert Hollenbeck [mailto:bsh1@charter.net]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:35 PM
To: HAMMER Glen A
Subject: Re: REAGRING YOUR EMAIL MESSAGE TO US
Glen, I noticed in the Bend area you have a green road with a x on it saying winter closure. Is this a ODOT hwy. or BLM? Thank you for your fast response. Bob Hollenbeck
—– Original Message —–
From: HAMMER Glen A
To: bsh1@charter.net
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:29 PM
Subject: REAGRING YOUR EMAIL MESSAGE TO US
Mr. Hollenbeck,
Thanks for your email message. We are looking at ways to clarify the situation for travelers in regard to Bear Camp Road.
It is not an ODOT highway (It belongs to BLM) so we can’t indicate whether it is open or not because ODOT doesn’t make that call – and TripCheck reports only on state highways.
But we are taking a look at all of the light green colored roads on the Web site (these are non-ODOT roads use simply for reference) and determine their value and condition.
Our approach is likely to be taking the line green road representing Bear Camp Road off of TripCheck all together. This should eliminate any confusion as to whether this road is a good option – regardless of the season.
Thanks again for your email and input.
Regards,
Glen Hammer
System Manager
TripCheck.com
___________________________________________________________
On your web cam map can you or would you please put a red x on the Bear Camp Road and have it say seasonal closure? Just another way to warn travelers to stay off the Bear Camp Road in the winter. Thanks Bob Hollenbeck
784 – That’s good news, Bob! Thank you for sharing it.
Maggie- You’ve got mail
786 – Now we need a “Rosebud”…
I’ve created a new page with links to most of the different pages now at the blog that refer to the Kim Search Story and linked it up at the top with a tab called “Kim Story”.
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/kim-story/
Joe, you’re the best!
783 – Maggie, I have found my eyes start going two different directions when I scan the 5 pages looking for stuff, and I don’t know any of the shortcuts for searching within JoeDuck, so I’ve been starting over doing outside searches to find references. I meant to post this really basic search technique link awhile ago, and if it’s been done before, I didn’t see it. It’s a great tool for doing searches, and I finally found where I had it stashed:
http://faculty.valencia.cc.fl.us/infolit/Google/help.htm
Thanks to Ellen we now have a copy of the Rogue River piece of the state highway map online:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/
(791) We need confirmation, however, that this is the map on which James and Kati were relying. It’s one of the “questions for Kati.” Anybody here able to confirm?
790 – Wow, Madeleine, I thought I knew some tricks, but that is really very cool! I had no idea you could do quite all that. I’m glad you shared it.
You might know this, and I think someone posted it however many pages back, but just in case, searching here in the blog for a certain word or phrase on a page (only one page at a time though…) in Internet Explorer you can do Ctrl+F or click on Edit menu, then Find in order to search a page. In Firefox, you can do the same, and it seems “smoother” to me how it works.
Joe, thank you for all of your hard work in making this a nice place for discussion.
791 – Ellen, if this is “the” map, I would not have even connected that sign in red to the Bear Camp Rd., mainly because the road was NOT closed! I remember Mapper saying it wasn’t a good way to flag the road conditions, using red for different purposes close together on the map. This is insane, they could have gotten virtually no help from this map in their predicament, IMO. Thanks for all your hard work, great job!
749) I don’t see a date on this Halsey Gas credit card info, so could you tell me why this did not help conclusively? On the other hand, what difference would it really make? Roseburg for dinner on credit card was even closer to Bear Camp. All it explains to me is just how low on gas they probably were with only 80 miles range on the tank to spare. Just pointing out that there was this OTHER 2nd credit card info that was posted.
793 – Thanks, Maggie, for the help on how to search the blog. No, I hadn’t known that. I hesitate to post things like the Google aid because I figure everyone else but me already knows all that stuff, but I figured this time it couldn’t hurt!
Maggie thanks for the compliments and to you and Madeliene for the search tips above!
Ellen 792 – I think I recall Brian Anderson or Hastings of State Police saying in a press conference that the Kim’s were using a recent Oregon Highway map but not sure at all.
792 – Ellen, I’ve definitely “heard” that it was an ODOT map, and I have mine from ODOT sitting in front of me that matches exactly – if it’s correct that this is the one they used.
The Rogue River Trail I’d seen before (probably here early on?), but the Kim’s didn’t have that with them, did they?
Everybody –
Ellen has done an superb job of pulling together questions from the thousands of comments and composing a wonderful letter to Kati Kim. We are waiting for Phil’s review and then it’ll be posted at the Questions for Kati page – probably tomorrow.
(219) no Paul, I have not heard back from Peter.
Friday, December 1, the day before James left the car seeking help for his family, Joe posted some prescient thoughts relating to the lost Kim family.
http://kipscott.googlepages.com/joeduck …shows some snippets from his post {italics} and from comments #2 and #3 following it.
In retrospect, Joe and some others who responded to his post were bang on in their assessment. IF only they had somehow been able to call the (SAR) shots at that point…
801- Thanks Kip for that! I hadn’t been able to find
Joe’s earlier postings.
(801) So I guess Joe I wasn’t giving you too much credit…you have been spot on from the beginning!
glenn, whereabouts are you?
804- I thought you were in California, but then you said
you were on the east coast. Have you been traveling, or
am I confused!
One guess – are you from California and living in Florida?
(806) Hi Lisa, I have lived in several places in North America. Today I am in Florida.
What’s up?
807- Hey! That was just a guess! Unless you had said it, and
I read it without realizing it! The way you put it now, it sounds mysterious!
(I haven’t tried the smiley faces yet, I would like to
sometime!)
(808) Just use a colon followed by right paren that will make a smiley.
Right like this
!
That’s kind of a smooshed one! Here: : ) !
I mean the fancy ones…
(812) No spaces in between and no character to follow.
that is right together and nothing directly follows…try that.
The advanced smileys!
Oh!
Thanks glenn!
That is fun!
Also, Joe – will we ever be able to find out who our
devoted mystery photographer was/is?
Ellen’s summary of questions for Kati that came up in the blog over the past weeks is now up at the Questions for Kati page:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/
If you want to discuss the *letter* please do it here, not there. If your question is not addressed in the letter go ahead and put it over there. I want to avoid having separate discussion pages because it’ll make it even more difficult to follow things.
Lisa RE: Revealing the picture taker? I think yes, but no promises about that!
Smilies: Some of the fancy ones are terms you already know, like lol, embedded in colons like this but with no spaces : lol :
http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
817 – One minor correction…unless the Kim’s doubled back, they would never have seen Galice. It is impossible to see this exactly from the map, but Galice is invisible at the point where you turn onto 34-8-36 aka Bear Camp, just immediately ahead but hidden by a slight bend in the road. Not terribly important, but in the interest of an accurate narrative…
817 – Wow 8O, Ellen! Such a beautiful job that clearly did take lots of time. Thanks to Joe again, too!
(819) Thanks, Paul. I’ll accumulate all the suggestions and corrections, and then I’ll send a re-edited version to Joe (for posting) and to Kati’s Dad for her.
821 – Merlin is the last community of any significance they would have driven through. I suspect if they HAD stopped there, given the intense media coverage, we would have heard an account of it from someone by now. The question of stoppin g in Merlin is indirectly covered in the question on them stopping for gas anywhere else (and paying cash).
You did a commendable job, that had to be a lot of work.
818- I have an idea who it is! [But I plead the 5th...!]:)
Wow Joe – that lol one is amazing! It almost tickles my
funny bone and hypnotizes me at the same time! That’s a
powerful smiley!
About the color of the signs. Throughout the US there is a standard that is followed for5 coloring of signs. The only places orange is used for warning signs is near a construction zone. All other warning signs are generally done in yellow. The color yellow is the right color for the sign. I think the placement of the signs and what is written on them is the problem, not necessarily the color of it. I’ll need to look up the standards book MUTCD (I think means Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices). I think changing the color to some other color might be more confusing than the yellow. Just my thoughts.
824- Thank you for clarifying that dkf747! I actually had a feeling that might be the case – because construction zones are the only places I ever really remember seeing them.
I guess I was hoping an exception might be made for a ‘Road
Closed’ sign, because I don’t think those yellow signs stand out enough. (We could be creative and say – it is construction, the snow is constructing snowdrifts – but of
course – I know that wouldn’t work – just couldn’t resist!)
Maybe if they had a thick red border, and a mix of red
and black lettering – something to make them look more like warning signs than just informational signs.
I also really think they should be diamond-shaped and not
rectangular, to help them stand out, and differentiate them from other signs – as warning signs.
[In addition to placement and stronger wording.]
(825) I still think they need skull and crossbones. I don’t think they should mess around with this anymore.
I’m for skull and crossbones! Yes!!!
Also, thank you to Ellen for an excellent summary of questions… saved me a lot of time!!!
I’m home now… look out!
Hey Paul, email me, curious where you’re from. Enjoyed your posts etc. – Dee surfinwebs@actionnet.net
As I posted at Road Signs Suggestions, I firmly believe the place to nip the errant trips into the wilderness by Google afficionados, etc. is on FREEWAY SIGNS! Must be posted at Merlin and next further north Exit… something like: NO THROUGH ROUTE TO COAST – TAKE HYW 199 FROM GRANTS PASS to Coast – FS23/BEAR CAMP/GALICE-MERLIN IS NOT A VIABLE ROUTE TO OREGON COAST – HAZARDOUS ROAD CONDITIONS YEAR ROUND THROUGH COASTAL MOUNTAINS. You all get the idea… “you all” comes from living 10 years in San Antonio, TX.
I sent this message to Oregon Senator Wynden, Gorden Smith, and Darlene Hooley:
This relates to December 2006 Kim Tragedy where they got lost on Bear Camp road trying to get to Oregon Coast. To salvage Oregon road credibility, better signs need posted on I5, state highways, forest service roads, and BLM roads in wilderness areas.
I firmly believe the place to nip the errant trips into the wilderness by Google afficionados, etc. is on FREEWAY SIGNS! Must be posted at Merlin and next further north Exit… something like: NO THROUGH ROUTE TO COAST – TAKE HYW 199 FROM GRANTS PASS to Coast – FS23/BEAR CAMP/GALICE-MERLIN IS NOT A VIABLE ROUTE TO OREGON COAST – HAZARDOUS ROAD CONDITIONS YEAR ROUND THROUGH COASTAL MOUNTAINS.
Too many people have required search and rescue searches in last 20+ years in Bear Camp area Josephine County. Signage needs to be improved drastically in the area on Forest Service and BLM roads. Support for SAR, coordinations, and funding needs to be equalized throughout all Oregon counties. SAR Volunteers need government support!
Two more days
Yes, two more days. I wonder if things are still on track with the timeline. I’m hoping so.
I think that when Kati tells her story, there will probably
be a lot of details she remembers quite well, for a number of reasons. I get the impression she may have been looking at a map much of the time, and there is that adrenaline that can actually help sharpen memories when things get difficult. And we know her Dad has confirmed that she has an excellent memory in general. I imagine the places that may get more confusing are the places that were not well marked with signs or indicated on the map.
And it is true that I have never seen such a complicated
set of roads in my life.
But I think it is very important that she takes her time,
and does what feels right, and what she feels inspired to
do.
Now, whenever she is ready we have a really good summary
(thanks to Ellen!)of questions and perhaps additional questions as they come up.
I am certainly content to wait, and try to help with the
changes that hopefully can be made to improve the information on the signs, maps, and internet data networking and capabilities. And it will be interesting to see what the search investigation has to report, and to ask JoCoSAR questions we might still have that we couldn’t ask before.
I wonder where mapper’s been? Working?
I just linked up the images that Ellen referred to in the letter – sorry about that. They are the obscured sign to Highway 42, The sign at the top of Bear Camp Road/ Lookout, and the clip from the Oregon DOT road map.
Maggie, Tara, and glenn -
I visited your blogs today and it was fun! Glenn’s seemed
perfect for glenn, and Maggie’s and Tara’s were really
sophisticated and prettier than I knew blogs could be.
Joe – I love the way your blog is set up too – love the
colors, and the design.
I tried to visit Maggie’s blog, it kept telling me page not found, then asking for Google creds. I don’t believe I have Tara’s blog url, and I do know Glenn’s, and it’s very nice. I don’t know when any of you three have time to even do a blog, along with all else going on and all you contribute here. I think Glenn hangs upside down in a closet somewhere for a bit each night instead of sleeping,like Grandpa on The Munsters (no offense Glenn, but you never seem to sleep and I’m getting suspicious).
(837) Nice save.
(838) Now that is funny Madeleine. Don’t you wish you had my secret for minimal sleep!
Hey, thanks for the blog compliment, Lisa! It’s kind of fun, though mine’s pretty random about day to day stuff mostly. Madeleine, if you can get to Glenn’s blog, he has links to mine and Tara’s (I think all 3 of us have linked to each others) – so maybe that will work if you had trouble.
Is it the 5th yet?
(visualizing 838 – that was funny)
(838) Do you remember Dr. Gene Scott…now that man never slept. I don’t care what time of the middle of the night you turned on the TV in 1970′s and 80′s…there he was!
Now that is a blast from the past.
D.H. – glad you are back…see if that address works better than my previous attempt.
Good to have all these photographs, really helps lend perspective. Have been to all 3 of our infamous contributers blogs – nice efforts each and every one. I can honestly say I never blogged a word in my life before being sucked into the blackhole that is the Joe Duck / Kim family vortex.
841 – I do remember Dr. Gene Scott, didn’t he whiz around in a limo most of the time?
842 – this is my second vortex, the first being the Oregon Vortex, which is a real place in SO OR.
Lisa! hahah. thanks for noticing my absence! I can’t believe I have beeen away for two whole days pretty much! I have been back to work, more seriously now that everyone is back from break, and we had to travel today to meet with …ooooh I should protect their identity….some scientist types.
I hardly know what to think anymore. But I love all the suggestions. And yes Madeleine I noticed your post above and I did say that it is not a good idea (at all) to use red lines for warnings when red is used for a general purpose color in the map (if you look at the whole map red is a main color). If I were in charge at ODOT we would be overhauling that WHOLE map and the color scheme. Now that I have had a rest from posting to this blog I may take the time to sum up my thoughts into one post (about the odot map) and post it to the suggestions page.
I also think Fools Gold and I should copy and paste the suggestions/line of posts about geocoding/geocoding “light” I will call it. If he hasn ‘t already posted that over there.
We drove several hours today for our meeting. Several times I almost blurted out things about bad signs, etc. thinking I was talking to someone who has also been to this blog, and stopping short realizing my boss would think I am crazy!
Dr. Gene Scott sounds like a cool guy!
I’m looking forward to reading Ellen’s letter…but it looks so long to my tired eyes right now!
845 – Mapper! My work has been more worky this week, too. I knew you were busy when you didn’t respond right away about the maps…
846 – I think Maggie should become a Mapper understudy with all her efforts of a few days back.
Missed you Mapper, it is so cool to have a map expert, wish we had a sign expert.
Maggie,
I’ve been rather inundated and slow to get back to a question that I think you asked – or was it someone else?
Anyway, regarding USFS maps – they are wonderful if you are going to be completely within the forest. Most do not have much detail outside of the forest. I believe all of the areas that we have looked at as possible routes for the Kims are completely outside the National Forest.
I have copies of the DeLorme State Atlas and Gazette for the State. It sections the state into about 60 pages for detailed info throughout with logging roads, navigable waters, sportsman access, topo info, some hiking trails etc. I believe they publish it for most states.
Of course this is not something that I would typically buy for a family vacation to another state. (though I might now) I just wanted to mention it as a possibility since you were talking about ordering individual USFS maps.
Ellen and everyone – great suggestions and questions!
847 – Thanks Paul – I just like to draw on other people’s maps.
848 – Angela, Mapper was asking about availability of USFS maps, and I was saying that they exist but that I’ve felt my trips into the forest “too casual” to bother getting one… until now – kind of like you just said
I hadn’t noticed until you mentioned it, but much of the north part of Bear Camp Road is not actually in the Siskiyou Natl Forest, though most south of it is. I totally missed that they were not technically within the boundaries. I wonder if that particular USFS map would have covered the area where the Kim’s were then? Not that they had the map, but if someone was headed out that way and had bothered to get one – would it help there?
thanks angela,
maggie…I have the same question. but josocar did mention they used a USFS map in the search and it had the logging roads on it. so…..maybe we should order it online!? we could find out!
Hi Paul! yes, it has been strange to spend so much time away from this place! I hope I regain my posting energy and can take on the odot map again for a final post atleast!
Did I see susan reappear momentarily?
I haven’t looked at the Siskiyou Natl Forest Map, so I’m not sure. I quit using them when I realized the limitation of scope. So, if it is like others, then it would likely have not been much help.
The StateWide map book would though, it covers the entire state. I keep one in my ‘Emergency Box’, in the car at all times. So, as long as I don’t leave the state I think I could figure out where I was . . .
If only JoCo and RRR were here, I bet they’d know off the top of their heads… Anyone else know? If not, we might need to buy a map – which is good because I should have one anyway. Paul, you play down on the Rogue – you don’t happen to have one of those maps, do you?
Re: Signs – Here is the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Conrol Devices, I think it is), published by US Dept. of Transportation/Federal Highway Administration. They have very specific regulations regarding road signs, and a whole chapter on Warning signs (2C). There’s a good chance this may apply in OR on these roads in question, since these regs are federal, but I’m still looking into that. It’s interesting to see how exacting the standards are in some respects, yet we know they had lousy signs up in the area in question.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2003/pdf-index.htm
854 – I forgot to add that the MUTCD gives local agencies the option of making some of their own signs, but it looks like the variation may be mostly in the wording, I think the shapes/colors are standard. Haven’t had a chance yet to read through it all, am sharing it as I go!
854-855 Thank you, Madeleine. I’ll have to take a look – sounds interesting (I never thought I’d describe road signs as “interesting”)
Hi folks, been gone a week and amazed at the number of pages. Took me two hours of reading, skimming to catch up.
So nice to hear from Kati’s Dad– I am a retired professional about your age with a similarly aged daughter and lovely grandkids and a wonderful son-in-law— so I feel empathy for your family. My sincere condolences.
Joe is there a way to put the five page headings at the top of each page– so if you land on page one you can move forward by a link to page five or six? No big deal..
My hope has been to provide some constructive comments- the state map, a review of signage across the BLM/USFS inventory nationwide at confusing intersections, outside review of the SAR process in this case, transfer of excess FLIR equipment from DoD to the State of Oregon. and early on –a woeful attempt to provide balance to the Oregonian articles which slammed the SAR efforts. Not much ammo then to refute their contentions.
I hope someone at the state level distills the positive comments from this blog and incorporates them in some fashion in some review. There must be a nugget or two in these five pages.
I arrived curious about the whole episode and the search and had to really say I just didn’t understand why they weren’t found sooner. With JoCoSar ‘s info and her response to a few of my Q’s and those of others, —– a few things became clearer- especially the lack of physical resources–as far as trucks, tech gear, goes. Only those stalwart Josephine County volunteers offset it as best they could. When I compare what one of our rural American counties like JoCo has, to what the Coast Guard and many urban areas have– well something seems a bit out of whack.
Maggie, excellent Google Earth map points of interest. I had traced their path via videos and road signs early on in the first days of this blog and again with your more refined map and hope I would have turned back much earlier– but who knows.
I followed the Mt. Hood rescue closely. I also started to watch Discovery Channel programs on Survival– Man vs Wild and Survivorman. In fact Man vs the Wild intends to base a future program in their second season in the Oregon wilderness and make some brief reference to the Kim tragedy. These two programs are about extremely fit sole men surviving in the wilderness with their excellent skills and local knowledge. Much of what they show is instructional in a limited way to the general public. What they don’t show is anything about two or more persons surviving and especially with children. That is an entirely different dynamic.
851/Mapper – Susan was here for the blink of an eye today, has generally been absent.
853/Maggie – I used to, a long time ago. I will say this, without a good map down there, if you get OFF Bear Camp, you are in trouble (i.e. my previous spaghetti noodles reference).
Maggie at 849) With reference to Forest Service maps, I’m confused again. Aren’t the roads past the FS-BLM intersection all BLM roads? Does the FS also map BLM lands?
I regularly play around with FS maps for the Mt. Baker-Snoqualmie and the Wenatchee National Forests. For navigation purposes, these maps can be infuriating. Although the roads are shown, the emphasis is on land ownership and boundaries and not on telling a casual off-roader which roads are useful and which roads are not. In Washington, where many sections of land were acquired during the railroad-building days, the National Forest has a checkerboard pattern that is multicolored and makes the maps very hard on the eyes. Unfortunately, the USGS Topo maps can be woefully outdated and they tend to print updates in the faintest shade of purple. We don’t seem to have many BLM lands in Washington and I am completely unfamiliar with their mapping procedure. We can bet that BLM or some other agency or private logging or paving contractor has a reasonably accurate map of the roads in the area past the FS-BLM intersection. However, it does seem that JoCo did have useful maps of that area, from whatever source, and that the road search was slowed by snow and not by unfamiliarity with the roads.
And then there is Google. Last week I was looking at North Cascades National Park and noticed a tangle of “FS roads” East of Ross Lake, complete with FS numbers. Old mining roads, perhaps? Nope. Google was merely displaying the trails, including the Pacific Crest Trail and the Boundary Trail. But if someone was relying on this map, he might think that he could rely on these “roads” just like another FS road.
Problems like these are the reason that professional mapmakers make so much money.
859 – That’s exactly what I was wondering – what maps could one carry that would include those roads well? Are some of the BLM roads in the area “just close enough” that they would be included on the FS maps, or not? Like you said, maps exist, but they’re not always available to or have information for a regular traveler – not that I’m convinced most people bother to get one. Wow, Google listing trails. This is all pretty nutty.
Lots of good stuff – just checking in, too tired to
(My newfound power!)
comment now…
836- I was just trying to say that Maggie’s and Tara’s
blogs have these subtle pretty sparkling elements to
them, as I’ve never seen before… You know, the kind of
stuff ‘girls’ like, and I was impressed by the designs…
mapper glad you’re back! Missed you!
Welcome back to Mapper and Bamadad!
Bamadad the best way to navigate is to click on “Kim Story” which is now at top of every blog page – this takes you to the page which has all comments pages plus more info.
Brenda Helverson, Maggie, Madeleine, Hotel disclosures.
“… but their refusal to provide cell phone numbers is new to me and I keep waiting for a source. . . .”
And I kept looking for source that would support my comment but could not find it. Thank you for posting the link to the article. Perhaps this example shows how SAR people would have difficulty too with hazy recollections of information and an inability to sort through a great mass of hastily assembled data.
Hello all, from the investigating detective from the Portland Police Bureau.
I am guessing many will be surprised to see a post here, and many will wonder if I really am who I am. I just sent an email directly to JoeDuck, with my direct contact information, so he could be contact me with any questions.
I also provided him information how he could receive official, factual documentation related to the Kim family case, so many of the questions which have been proposed since the inception of what became this tragedy might be addressed.
None of the information I advised him about will be directly related to search and rescue, as I had no involvement in that phase of the rescue effort. I am one of the detectives responsible for the investigation portion, up until the point when Katie and the girls were located.
I did not decide to comment here – which, admittedly is a first for me, to defend the investigation, per se. But rather, to let you all know that factual, unbiased and supported information is available, outside of what the media has portrayed throughout this case. Speaking for myself (and everything here is to be considered my personal opinion, and in no way officially reflects the opinions of the Police Bureau – sorry for the necessary disclaimer), when the true facts are shared publicly, it will provide a drastically different perspective of what everyone *thinks* happened, or didn’t happen, with respect to this entire investigation.
Please take the time to avail yourself of the facts, as they become available. Please do not be too quick to judge or criticize, either the efforts of the law enforcement members who poured everything we had into this effort (I know – completely contrary to what has been portrayed by the media, believe me, I know what you’re thinking right now) – or the actions and efforts of James and Kati Kim, who found themselves in the most unfortunate, and unintentional of situations, and for which, James Kim gave his life for his family, regardless of individuals’ opinions of his actions.
I am confident that it will be an eye-opener for everyone here, and for the public at-large, as this family seems to have drawn the interest of the entire country, if not many worldwide.
Many thanks to those of you who have kept the Kim family in your thoughts, regardless of opinions expressed here, and especially to those of you who have allowed yourselves to keep an open mind about the convenience of “hindsight.” Many of us in law enforcement, myself included, believe everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and there are often very valuable ideas to be shared in a forum such as this. Which is why many of us try to take the time occasionally to “eavesdrop” in these forums to find out what is important to people.
And just know that we’ve been subjected to criticism, monday morning quarterbacking, convenient hindsight and the like since the day each of us started in our careers – it’s okay, we’re used to it and, as professionals, we can take it, and….we expect to be scrutinized and evaluated. Just try to keep things in perspective and know that, I for one, believe that any honest, thoughtful question is deserving of being asked. Just be open to an honest, unbiased (read: not media-driven) answer when provided.
Thanks for taking the time to read my rather lengthy post. Please keep the Kim family and their extended family members and friends in your thoughts. I do every day.
re864, Det. Mike W. or JOE: How, where, and when will these facts be posted? Will they be all in one document and comprehensive, or bits and pieces at a time? Can any citizen request these facts, and if so, how? Thanks.
Welcome Mike W.
And thank you for your lengthy but rather uninformative post.
I too favor precise and factual information and also try to avoid being overly influenced by hindsight.
(864) Thanks for the post Mike. It is nice to see your recommendations. Some of us here are really trying to keep an open mind and are hopeful when the facts are presented many of the issues can be resolved. We also hope to take all the knowledge amassed from this forum and event to create an online presence that can assist in these situations in the future.
I would very much like to hear your suggestions and thoughts on that. Thanks for taking the time to read and be involved over here.
Joe once again this blog never ceases to amaze. Great job.
(866) That is uncalled for. We are fortunate to even have him posting here and it is his first post.
Mike W
Thank you for your comments.
Yes, the media often skews and/or misreports. We look forward to the release of the review reports and hope that they will be available soon.
While we often get into discussions of guessing and using hindsight while waiting for the full documentation, Please know that almost everyone here has a strong desire to assist in preventing future tragedies.
Mike W.
You have email at your work address.
864 – Detective Mike, thank you very much for posting here. I think many of our minds have been opened to a point here over the thousands of posts to where most are not so quick to judge anyone any more until, just as you said, we have some facts. Thank you again.
864 – Det. Mike,
Thank you for your post, as well as your statments that’s it OK for us to question the actions of all the officials in this case. I do not think – and I am not assuming to speak for others or all just going by the general post here – anyone here is out to see anyone ‘hanged’ we just want to understand why happened, why and what can be done to prevent further such tragdies. Unfortunately, even if the issues in regards to the tragedy get resolved, there will be another of another type somewhere else.
Thank you
http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/localnews/ci_4844453
Excellent article in Modesto Bee Dec 15th on a private fund available to cash-strapped SAR units from proceeds of Laci Peterson story, run by Laci’s mother. (I don’t think it has been posted here)
JoCoSar and RRR- If you aren’t already aware of it, please consider filling out an application or asking your County leaders to consider it. This may be one small positive.
Portions:
MODESTO — “The Laci and Conner Search and Rescue Fund is saving lives after only a year in business, and is sure to protect many more, supporters say.
“We’re very indebted to Sharon” Rocha, said Joyce Wilson of Arizona’s Superstition Mountain Search & Rescue. Its members received advanced medical training in the spring that proved useful in several rescues in the summer and fall, Wilson said.
….
During Scott Peterson’s blockbuster 2004 trial, which included testimony from various searchers, Rocha hit on the idea of helping beef up their operations. The Laci and Conner fund’s focus is improving search capacity before a crisis, not during.
…
In its first year, the fund has awarded $76,000 to 19 search-and-rescue organizations. The first went to the volunteer group in Arizona.
…..
The fund has $111,000 left and is looking for more donors, said Kim Petersen, executive director of the Sund-Carrington Foundation.
For four years, Laci Peterson’s survivors have staged an October memorial motorcycle ride, which this year morphed into a benefit for the search-and-rescue fund. It raised more than $5,000, Petersen said.”
#864 – Thank you so much for taking the time to post. We welcome and appreciate it greatly.
The one line of your post that jumps out at me is: “when the true facts are shared publicly, it will provide a drastically different perspective of what everyone *thinks* happened, or didn’t happen, with respect to this entire investigation.”
Indeed, we have all – myself included – been guilty of reaching conclusions prematurely only to have our eyes opened further by subsequent findings. Pac, if you are still lurking, you most especially. “drastically different”…it’s worth repeating.
Thank you Joe for a great forum.
Thank you, Det. Mike, for posting and sharing your thoughts.
Wow, Bamadad, that is great! Had no idea that was going on. It is a wonderful thing to see such good come out of tragic events.
(873) Great find Bamadad!!!
864- Det. Mike W
Thank you so much for your post. I must say I am very
impressed by your integrity. You truly seem to care about
this case and this family.
While it’s true there has been a lot of speculation based
upon and oriented around the ‘facts’ we have had so far in this case, we are all so much more interested in getting closer to the truth, and getting a more accurate
assemblage of events.
It is true that hindsight always seems the wiser. But
most importantly we are not here to point fingers at
individuals on any side of this story. We want to know
what happened in order to understand what can be changed
and improved for the future.
Most of us are here because we deeply care. The loss of James Kim, was the loss of a precious person, in circumstances that seem like they should have been more preventable. And we want to help do everything we can to help prevent such tragic losses in the future.
I very much look forward to hearing the “true facts,” and
I truly appreciate the care and consideration in, and sincerity of, your post.
864 – Det. Mike, thanks so much for posting, and I know how frustrating it is to read speculation and comments that may be off base no matter how well intended. Obviously we only have the media reported account plus those facts which we’ve been able to gather on this site, and we’re constantly trying to make sense of what we’ve learned.
As you can see here, we don’t represent the “blame James and Kati” crowd who never get past them taking the route in the first place. While understanding their choices are important in order to prevent future such events, our focus is improving the road signs and any aspects of the investigation/SAR ops that can be addressed. I know we will be most interested in the information you allude to. Can you say whether this will be included in any of the reports being written at the state level now, or will your Department’s records be made public independently?
864- Also for the record,
I want to say that in the beginning especially, as we
learned more details of the story, the search, and
the investigation, there were times when the inaction
and action of officials involved were called into question.
And there were times when responsibility of that inaction
or action were attributed to individuals, and the reasons were questioned.
But again any frustration or criticism expressed was caused
by and directed to – not the individual officials themselves, but their choices of action, and why.
The real frustration was not at officials, but their actions.
It may sound like a close call, but there is a difference.
Any officials could have made those same actions and
would still be questioned.
The Pope could have made those same actions and he would
still be questioned.
So it is not personal, but if we didn’t look at these issues, nothing would be learned.
Its really interesting to hear from you detective.
I’ll be interested to learn more, when it becomes available.
Just in defense of Fool’s Gold…I think maybe Glenn read it wrong…I dont think he meant disrespect, just that its nice to hear from the detective even though it sounds like he can’t really talk about specifics at this time.
This forum has been very interesting. I feel I should start a blog of my own and just hope to attract just the people I want to hear from! Amazing!
880 – I’ve said it before – you truly just never know who will show up here. Pretty amazing thing Joe has going!
Thanks Detective Mike, glad to have you here! I’m checking email right now and with your permission happy to post any information or documents you’d like people to know about.
Det. Mike:
Just a comment that a lot of criticisms were probably as much an emotional response as anything else. People got very emotionally involved with this story, and the outcome was so devastating, and inevitably that leads to people wanting to ask, “How could this have happened? Why wasn’t he saved?” It’s only human.
883- Agreed, Joy – Thanks… I think that was part of
the emotions involved as well.
mapper, I loved it when you said this last night:
“We drove several hours today for our meeting. Several times I almost blurted out things about bad signs, etc. thinking I was talking to someone who has also been to this blog, and stopping short realizing my boss would think I am crazy!”
it’ll be good to hear from each side of this. Perhaps Kati will answer the questions proposed to her, JoCoSAR can give insight to the SAR end, And Det. Mike can fill in on the investigation portion prior to the kims location. With all those pieces together, hopefully we can have a pretty good picture of the events.
And I think now is a good time to share one of my
favorite quotes:
“True knowledge consists of knowing
what is shallow and what is deep;
of diving often to the very bottom.”
It’s an ancient Zen quote.
I just had a nice talk with Detective Mike from Portland Missing Persons. He’s not able to answer specific questions at this time but might be able to check in later.
I think it’s important to note that, as we saw with the Josephine County reporting, the media sensationalism really got in the way of accurate reporting of the Kim Family case.
This is a 35 page public document that discusses in detail the “missing persons” investigation through Portland PD and has a lot of information that was not covered or misreported by the media. Unfortunately it does not look like we can get it electronically – mail requests only. I’m happy to pay the $10 fee if somebody wants to make the request and scan in the docs.
Some of the details of this document may come out in the Governor’s report.
Portland Police Bureau Records Division
PPB Case #06-109689
dangit! I cant scan,… Joe were you saying that if someone can scan it we could make it available here for us to view??
I’d be happy to scan (and very interested to see it), and I should be able to post it as a .pdf. Just let me know.
ooo!!! joe! maggie will do it!!!
ps ty maggie!
Is anybody in Portland who could request or pick it up and scan it? It’s a mail system so we are looking at a long delay here as the mail goes out and comes back.
Joe you have mail….
I just called the Portland Police Public Info guy to see if he has ideas about getting this faster.
Joe, I was going to suggest that. I can definitely scan it, but I can’t get downtown during daytime hours. If their office is open Sat, I could pick it up and scan it that day. If there is anyone else that could pick it up today/tomorrow, but can’t scan, I’d be glad to meet up to get it and scan it (we could meet somewhere mutual, like a Dutch Brothers!).
There is a problem with the James Kim Family Auction on Ebay….. The auctions were taken down today or yesterday but the items total was $12,000 at the time they were taken down.
Here is a link, http://kimfamilyauction.typepad.com/
they are looking for a non profit sponsor…501(c)3 organization.
OK, Bryant at Portland PD was super helpful and said he’s leaving a copy of the document in the Chief’s office. He was also happy to mail it out.
Could some please refresh me as to how to search the blog site???
Searching for stuff:
1) click on “Kim Story” on top of each page
2) click on the page you want to search.
3) use Control F to open a search box.
I do NOT have a way at this time to search all the comments pages at the same time but I’m thinking about it. Of course the last time I thought about improving things I almost wound up deleting 1000 comments and had posts in teh middle of the pages … so …
Thank you Mr Duck
Citizen – searching here in the blog for a certain word or phrase on a page (only one page at a time though…): in Internet Explorer you can do Ctrl+F or click on Edit menu, then Find in order to search a page. In Firefox, you can do the same, and it seems “smoother” to me how it works.
Hehehe, sorry, I was a day late
Joe, I doubt Chief’s office will be open on Saturday, but please do let me know if I can be of help. I could give you my address if we do need to go the mail route – should only take a day or two.
Anybody in downtown Portland who can pick up the missing person’s report and hand it off to Maggie (895)? I’ll reimburse for the coffee!
NOTE: This is NOT the big report we’ll probably see tomorrow, it’s the 35 page summary of the missing persons part of the investigation that addresses things like getting the Edge Wireless data, the hotel request for info, etc.
899 – No more fixing not broken stuff
(898) Ctrl-F and enter search term. That is if you are in Internet Explorer. It not you should be able to find a search action in one of the menus.
903- I’m not in downtown Portland, but if no one else
could do it – I possibly could tommorrow?
(896) They should contact a local Rotary in the area. They usually can help them out.
899 – No, Joe, don’t do it !!!…I don’t want to go back to the Twilight Zone again !!
I am in PDX but cannot get downtown during the day.
900- Mr Duck!
906- It might just be better to mail it to Maggie – she
might get it Saturday if it’s picked up tomorrow.
(I don’t have any scanning abilities.)
909- addition
It might be easier. Usually mail in the Portland metro
area always takes just one day to get to its destination!
Can somebody just read it to us over the phone?
LOL
Now that’s funny, Glenn!
Joe, I’ve emailed you with my mailing address if you’d like to go that route. If they can still get it into the mail today, I’ll definitely have it by Saturday. If they mail it tomorrow, I should have it Saturday or Monday, depending. The moment I get it, I’ll start scanning and should have it up on my site before too long after that. Sorry, Glenn, I will not be including an audio version
I also had a question about one of the questions for
Kati in Ellen’s summary:
“Several of us wondered if you thought there was a correlation between any particular one of those warning signs on the road and the point on the state map where the red arrow points its “This route closed in winter” message box.”
I don’t remember anyone wondering if the Kims thought there
was a correlation between these two things. I am not
remembering correctly? Or is there possibly some confusion here?
911- That is funny glenn!
Maggie,
are you going to post it on your blog?
913- Does anyone else remember that?
915 – Tara, I’m not sure that there is a way to post it on my blog (aside from converting to text after scanning – sounds too long), but I can definitely post it on my website, and post the direct link to it here.
917- The reason why I ask is that – I don’t think it’s the
intention, but it almost sounds like it could be interpreted
as an insinuating question – ‘why didn’t you noticed these
two things and put them together’, which I don’t think
comes off as fair. If I was Kati, that question would
make me feel weird.
918- typo
‘why didn’t you notice these two things’, etc.
maggie, I forgot you had a website too. makes sense..
913,918-
Joe, do you understand what I mean about this question?
Lisa 913,918,921: Yes, I understand what you mean but I think Kati will understand that this was not mean-spirited. Note also that I think her Dad probably has already passed Ellen’s letter along to Kati (not sure though), and he and I did review it for appropriateness.
Good Evening,
My name is Brian Anderson. I was involved in the search for the Kim Family. The comments by several members of the forum have been very interesting.
I would ask that you keep an open mind and look at the facts. The Oregonian will be publishing another article tomorrow.
The OSSA report will not be ready tomorrow. They will need another week.
Brian Anderson
Ok, wow, now the next thing you know Oregon’s gov. will be posting on here.
Take a bow, Joe.
923 – Thank you, Brian Anderson, for stopping in. I’ll continue to keep my mind “re-opened” until all of the reports are reported. This has been a bumpy ride to say the least.
Welcome Brian, to Joe Duck, you join an illustrious list of special guests. We have been striving to keep an open mind as we have been forced to reconsider conclusions and opinions multiple times in our endeavor here. Disappointed on the delay in the report, but not surprised, ’tis the nature of such things to be delayed.
(923) Hi Brian,
From what I understand the article might not be too flattering. We will keep an open mind and we look forward to all the facts. Good luck with the investigation.
I quote the venerable & wise Maggie – You just never know who will show up next.
Mr. Anderson,
is is possible for you to answer any questions now?
Look how many factions involved with this case have found their way here. Although this is after the fact, surely there must be some way to get something of this order set up to help in searches.
Look at the expertise on here, as well, who could offer insight yet aren’t in the immediate area, mapper, glen, people who live in the area.
Two or three people could be trained to spot relative info, an e-mail set up for people with serious info to send in their contact info, another two or three people to make the calls. There are people I’m sure who want to help on a SAR mission but don’t have the ability/knowledge/training to actually get out & search or the other aspects of it but would be great to sift through & track down info and what appears to be good info, get it to those who matter.
927 – Glenn, can you elaborate at all about the article…understand if not, but curious how you know it will not be flattering.
(929) Tara,
I am choosing not to answer any questions at the moment. I know that there is a lot of interest in this incident.
Brian Anderson
(931) I would suggest everyone keep an open mind when reading the article in The Oregonian. REMEMBER the OSSA report is not complete – we must wait for all of the facts.
Brian welcome to the discussion part of the blog. Thanks for checking in and I’m sure people understand that you can’t discuss things now, though I’m hoping that after the Governor’s report comes out tomorrow some of the people involved so closely with the rescue effort can answer questions. I’ll have a new page set up overnight as I expect a lot of discussion of that upcoming report.
Mr. Anderson,
I understand. Is it possible to answer questions after the investigation?
Joe Duck,
are we going to have the report tomorrow? I thought it would be another week or am I confusing reports?
923 – Brian Anderson, thank you for posting here. I figured the report would not get be finished by tomorrow, given that gov’t agencies are involved and I’m sure at least several committees. I can envision the process since I also work for a County agency. I’d rather have the report be comprehensive than a quick one for speed, so let’s hope that’s what we get.
You’re in the same boat as JoCoSar and RRR, surrounded by speculation, possible misinterpretation and conversation that you no doubt can’t repond to as yet. The way the media reported some aspects of your participation was confusing, so the resulting speculation doesn’t surprise me.
Hope you will be with us after the report is released to respond, and meantime, please keep reading as we go through our process.
Everybody note that there are 3 different “reports” we’ve been talking about here at the blog today.
1) Oregon Governor’s Report on Kim Search comes out tomorrow. Press conference at noon and I think that’s when the report will be out. When people find that online feel free to post it or a link to it or send it to me jhunkins@gmail.com I’ll put it up immediately.
2) Oregon State Sheriff’s report on Kim search. This has been delayed for a week and should be out next Friday:
http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2006/12/27/news/news13122706.txt
3) Portland PD 35 page summary of the missing person casework (but not SAR efforts). I think we’ll have a copy of that online by Saturday or Sunday.
thank you joe… sorry, Im alittle slow on the uptake tonight.
(938) Great summary Joe. I will stress again that I think we need to look at all three reports before we can finalize.
Joe will you be setting up a discussion area for each report? Since they will be posted at different times…maybe we can keep three discussions on the reports and have a final discussion after we have had some time discussing the three.
I think it will get very confusing if we try to combine a discussion thread with the multiple reports.
Glenn I think I like that idea of having separate discussions for each report but want to hear from others about this. Should we keep this discussion separate from those report discussions?
941 – I kind of like keeping it all in one place just because it seems easier, but Glenn does make a good point.
Joe, do you still need me to do anything on the Police paperwork, or is it taken care of?
(942) I think too many people will be confused when the reference the discussion threads later. A different thread for each report until they are all talked out.
A final thread for summary analysis and discussion. Make it a lot easier later.
Plus people can take their time with each report and discuss.
its going to get very confusing if its not seperated
Maggie I’m waiting to hear back from the person who had the copy already. If they can’t then I’ll have Portland PD mail it to you. Thanks so much for being willing to do this, and of course if your time gets tight you’ll be off the hook to scan it.
945 – Judging by how much time I spend here, I’ve got all the time in the world
http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/oregonian/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/2007_01.html
(947) Thanks for the link.
I couldn’t help notice this story in that mix on the link:
Hollywood blog: Portland man attacks family of soap star
Oregon man attacks someone from California. Thought it might have been Pac – sorry I just couldn’t resist!
Glenn, I see your point about the separate places for disussing each report, but I don’t see how we’ll be able to keep them separate since we’ll have to compare and contrast the info as the reports come out. We’ve done this a lot already with different maps, news stories, etc.
Meant to say I did visit Tara’s and Maggie’s blogs on links from Glenn’s, excellent, both of them! You two are so cute, and I think it was Maggie that was touting the coffee maker. I would be doing the exact same thing, I’m always on the bandwagon for some product or another, just like an infomercial!! Great job, both of you, your sites are very well done.
(949) Multiple reports with potentially conflicting chronological order, and facts I think will be overwhelming for one thread. But I am happy with whatever everyone wants.
We haven’t had to deal with a large volume of “facts” at once before. I think it will get a little out of hand plus we will all need to agree on some sort of format OSSA, PD or whatever prefix for each post.
922- Thanks Joe, I didn’t know it had already gone out
to Kati, passed her Dad’s approval, etc.
923- Very interesting…
940- I agree – it seems that there should be a different
thread for each report, or I think it could get very
confusing!
I’m excited about tomorrow!
951 – Glenn, Okay, I see how it would be confusing. But it will be hard on the individual discussions not to point out differences, which I assume there will be. We can try our best, though, if Joe will split them up.
Frances did you ever get your coffee? How is it?
941 – I agreed with Glenn, separate discussions for each report.
(954) There is the issue. I think each report should be discussed on its own. I think an additional thread should be started at the same time to have cross discussions. Eventually we will all end up on the 4th thread but I think for later research, review it will be impossible to follow if it isn’t split out.
Little more work now…but worth it for later. Measure twice cut once.
I’m going to be different and say I think it should be in one thread / page. I think facts / specifics from each are going to interweave in the narrative and be cross referenced as discussions go forward…I envision it getting confusing with something like this: well if you consider post 232 on page 7 in conjunction with post 186 on page 6, add in post 14 above and …. It would make my head, already dizzy with details, spin even more.
Anyway, I defer to the majority and/or Joe, who I think we should all chip in and buy a striped referee shirt for his birthday.
thanks madeleine!
952- Thank you Ellen!
I wasn’t here for that part of the discussion – that must
be why I didn’t remember. I also want to make sure you
know that I think you did a really great and admirable job with an immense amount of information, and my concerns had
nothing to do with your actual work. Just that question.
And I was very moved especially by the ending…
“Of course, so many of the other questions we have – about how James did what he did to save his family – will never be answered, and I for one am happy to just accept his heroic effort as testimony to the incredible power of his love for you, Penelope, and Sabine.”
I thought that was so beautiful…
And I truly thank you so much for all your work!
(954) BTW if this had the forum capability of pings, and pagination of posts I would say it would be easier. As you and I both know we have been on very long discussion threads before.
(935) Tara,
I may or may not answer any questions after the OSSA report is released.
Brian Anderson
I have a feeling that the discussion would be most helpful if we kept it in one thread, with an agreed upon set of conventions/abbreviations for citing each of the reports. People would then be free to point out the similarities/discrepancies/etc. It may be necessary, however, for individuals to step forward after the discussion dies down and volunteer to summarize the responses to each of the reports.
So I’d vote for mingle first, then separate out later.
I’ll be travelling this weekend, but I’ll look forward to catching up when I can.
Lisa
I am with you, I was not comfortable with a lot of those questions, not really in favor of the whole thing at all. But, I guess the style in which it was done may at least end the questioning, and if kati’s dad wants to, he can throw it away, edit it, etc. that would be fine by me. I completley appreciate ellen’s time and Joe’s editing, but with all due respect…I was never comfortable with all that to begin with, as is probably clear by many of my posts throughout.
C’est la vie I guess. I’ll be interested to hear a response if she has one, ever, in whatever style is chosen. I hope she is a very strong person, and does not let anything get to her about the fact that some questions appear to make her sound stupid or worse…..my opinion….but hey, I guess this is where I post that. nothing I can do about it and I guess I am okay with that, someday she can look back and see…hmmm..one or two people were not completley cool with this.
Differing opinions, hmmmm… who counts the dangling chads? Joe?
ellen, joe
I am with you. I like the simple forum. We could just preface posts by the report number (1,2, or 3). that would be preferable to me, as creating threads and different discussions can really fragment the thought processes and this forum has worked so well, in my opinion because it is so simple.
964. Main reason I have been rather quiet… Mapper, I agree and felt the same, uncomfortable, wondering if it were me, how would I feel receiving it. I couldn’t ask any questions myself.
It may be six for one, half a dozen for the other,
I could go/be happy either way, but:
I think that chronology will naturally separate out
most of the discussion of the reports, because tomorrow -
we will only have one report to discuss.
And I’m sure we will all be here and excited! (Even though
it’s Friday!)
We will get the Missing Person’s Report once Maggie
receives and is able to scan it, but we are not sure
when that will be exactly.
And the OSSA report won’t be ready for another week.
So I think it will all separate out and compare/contrast/
synthesize naturally.
But I’m really open, I don’t care how we discuss them,
I just look forward to discussing them!
Just so excited!
964 / Mapper // 967 Gayle: I’m totally in the same boat…this is no disrespect to Ellen and her outstanding effort, nor to Joe, but as I read that letter I tried to envision Kati reading it, and I simply couldn’t get comfortable with that vision…so many detailed questions, unearthing memories so painful, circumstances so dire,…so soon after such a traumatic loss, still struggling to cope with so much, still mourning…it made my insides tie up in knots to envision her holding that document and trying to struggle with all the emotions it would be sure to stir up.
964-
Yes mapper and Gayle the more we got into it, the more
some of it made me kind of uncomfortable too, wondering
what it would be like for Kati – if she would really
be ready – and having strangers ask all of these questions.
That’s why I wrote a post last night saying I am content
to wait and hope she takes her time, and does what feels
right for her, etc.
But then I also thought of how it was all kind of in
her Dad’s hands first, and he knows her, and where she is
with all this better than we do – and as he has expressed,
her well-being and happiness is paramount to him.
She may very well be at this time as caught up in all
these questions as we are, so I don’t know, I just leave
it up to her Dad, and her…
I’m sure they will do whatever feels right for her…
Phew. I was just going to thank Gayle for her post. thinking everyone probably thinks were just a bunch of emotional women over this.
I was just about to explain why, and my own personal experience attached to why (dont really want to go there:)
so, I am glad even a man is on the same page here,
again, I appreciate ellen and joe’s effort, but I am also releived I am not the only one who feels this way.
thanks for letting me know. Paul you sum it up very well.
(964) Lisa, Mapper, Paul, I completely understand your being somewhat uncomfortable with the whole “questioning Kati” thing.
I was willing to step forward and do the summary, however, because I felt I had something of a unique responsibility — not only to the participants in this group, who have devoted so much to these discussion here and for whom a summary might serve as a capstone, but also to Kati and her family. My husband and I have known Kati’s parents for many years. So drafting the letter was easier for me because of this “friend of the family” feeling that I have.
As I said in my “letter” to Kati, I hope that by providing this summary of the questions people have been asking here, it will facilitate her telling her story — without her having to wade through all the messages and chatter here — in whatever form or venue she may ultimately choose.
RE: Kati Questions: 964, 967, 969. I appreciate the feedback and I’ll pass this along to Kati’s Dad, but remember Ellen was trying to pull together comments that varied from very soft to downright mean-spirited but relevant to the millions who have been wondering about all this. I’m not sure we’ll see any answers to these but I don’t think this will offend Kati.
well I guess I will just say, I have been in a position sorta similiar to katis before though not for the world to see. I have distanced myself from family members because of how they dealt with me during a traumatic event. Some know what to do and say and some let their nastiness get the best of them…even people closest to you, sometimes because they feel like they have a right to say things like “how could you be so stupid?”
I’m not saying this is the same thing….just that even family members can have poor judgement in this area, and it can ruin relationships. A grieving person remembers forever the people who treated her/him the way that was right, good, and helpful. A grieving person also rememembers those who did not…for better or worse.
ellen I do thank you for your well intentioned work and you may know something that I dont, and I may be way off base. I’m glad you understand our concerns, though we are helpless to do anything about them. I dont have any purpose to talk about it after the fact, except to state my own feelings of concern.
RE: Questions. Interesting, I felt the same way, and definitely respected the huge effort that was put into it – I don’t think it could have been done any better. I didn’t really want to speak up about it, but I thought about it the other day and wrote this:
“As I read through the “list” on my lunch break, it just seemed so very LONG and almost overwhelming, even to me. I do think Ellen did a heck of a job because that’s a ton of posts to try to distill. Honestly, at the end of reading it, these were the only questions I’d ever really care to know and *only* if Kati decided that she felt like sharing them:
1. What do YOU want people to know or people to do after this horribly sad tragedy?
2. Not a question. I have no idea what it’s like to be in your shoes and won’t pretend I do, but I’m simply amazed by everything you did RIGHT to keep yourself and your girls alive, and with that kind of love and spirit I do think that you and your girls really will be OK, but that doesn’t mean that it will be a straight line from here to there or that you will ever forget your brave, heroic, courageous husband and Daddy, James. No matter what anyone says, it’s just plain not fair.
I wrote 5 questions above before I deleted them and decided that they really are none of my business to ask and they are not something I would actually ask if I were to meet Kati, so I’m keeping just what’s above as mine.
If Kati does decide to write a book, then sure, I think it’s useful for her to know what we’ve all been asking. Maybe for Kati it’s best to write sooner, or later, or never – everyone is so different. I guess there is no harm in her dad giving her the list and letting her decide if she cares to read it, but I couldn’t bring myself to ask her directly half of what we’ve been discussing on the blog. I don’t feel that it’s been in any way wrong to discuss it, and I’ll continue to do so, but I just feel differently about it as a matter of respect for a grieving 30 year old woman with a hell of a lot going on right now.”
972/973: Ellen, I forgot you knew Kati’s parents, and I wasn’t offended by your letter at all nor by the effort, my profuse apology if it came across that way. I was just conveying how I felt…I was – candidly – surprised as the emotions overcame me as I was reading it as I was enthused about the concept. I’m conflicted, what else can I say, and was just trying to convey that it felt good to know others felt the same way – I thought I was alone in those emotions. Kati’s dad will be the perfect buffer.
972- Thank you Ellen for clearing that up. Initially I did
get the impression from your interaction here with Kati’s
Dad that you were a friend of the family, so I felt it
was all in good, knowing hands.
But then at some point I thought you said something about
being an outside observer or something like that, and I
got confused.
It makes me feel better knowing that you know Kati’s parents
so well.
Again thank you for your tremendous efforts – I was very
impressed with your synthesis.
(976) No offense taken, Paul.
Ellen, please know that my post, too, is meant to take nothing away from your hard work.
955 – Glen, no, the coffee is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. Am looking forward to it.
Regarding the questions sent to Katie. I haven’t commented as I, too, felt similar to mapper, Gayle & Paul. I wasn’t completely comfortable with it. But I respected the work Ellen put into it and I knew it first had to pass Joe’s approval and then go through Katie’s dad’s approval. As well as I told myself Katie didn’t have to answer any question she didn’t want to and I would like to say right now, very loudly, Katie doesn’t have to answer any question she doesn’t want to and what she chooses, if any, not to answer, should just be accepted and not critized for or anything read into her choosing not to answer any specific question.
Ellen, you stated earlier, the Sago mine tragedy had captured your attention. In the Charleston Gazette on Sunday they had a whole seperate section on it. I don’t know if they have it online or not, I was going to look and send you the link, but the last couple of days have been difficult & haven’t had time. If it’s not online & you are interested, if I still have it, and I hope I do as I wanted to sit down read it myself, I could send it to you. If you want to look for yourself to see if it’s on line, just Google Charleston Gazette, WV and there should be the link there.
(977) Thanks, Lisa. I did try to remain objective and true to all that had been discussed. (I think the only legitimate question that I dismissed out of hand was one about whether Kati did any of the driving, because I know she didn’t.) But throughout the summarization process I was confident that Kati would be fully prepared to say — either publicly or just under her own breath — “that’s not how it happened at all,” “where did they get that idea,” or “how stupid a question is that,” if warranted. After all, she’s the only one who knows what really happened. The rest of us were only guessing.
Ok, I missed Ellen’s post 972. My apologies Ellen. I did not realize you knew Katie’s parents so well. From earlier comments, I felt you knew them, but I didn’t realize that well. In this case, then, I trust your judgement & given that you know them so well, it was right that you were the one to do the list.
Do you know Katie as well?
980 – Frances, I know it’s kind of off topic, but once you get the coffee and try it, can you please let us all know how it is? I go to Dutch Bros very regularly (in case someone wasn’t paying attention), but I have never tried their beans and have had a few people ask me just that.
I hope it’s a yummy as it is when I drive by.
Hey mapper, do you have an email address where I could
send you something I wrote to you?
974 – mapper, my heart goes out to you. I am in a tramatic situation now, and believe me I will remember for the rest of my life what family memebers have choosen to aid and what family has choosen to turn away, as will my daughter & we both will remember for the rest of our lives the pain caused to my son by those that have chosen to turn away. I will explain, but I really don’t want to discuss it, as this blog is my escape and helps take my mind off my situtation. I have a 27 year old son who has Duchenne’s Muscular Dystropy and is on a vent with a feeding tube & totally bed ridden. He should be dead by now but is living beyond what the doctors predicted and given the stage of his disease, basically doing admirably well. Some days are more demanding than others and we are not able to live by any form of schedule. I admire Katie’s dad , sooooo very much because my own father has choosen to turn away from my family. Such situations on family seldom brings them closer, it more often than not tends to tear families apart to and see when a family pulls together just does my heart good. To see Katie’s dad have the respect and admiration for her is just so heartwarming. This is also the main reason I did not critize the list of questions Ellen put together for Katie. I do not have the time nor engery to involve myself to the extend of doing anything other than giving thoughts, therefor, if I wasn’t willing to offer to do it myself, I felt I should keep my mouth shut on that issue.
Wow, I got lots of feedback on how to format tomorrow’s discussion of the report including some emails that are not posted here wanting to keep it as a single conversation. We are going to start simply, using a new page in this same format to talk about the Govs report. When the Portland PD report is available we’ll see how it goes to keep the discussion “here” rather than open new pages, but as of now I’m planning to open a separate page for the Sheriff’s report next week and we’ll see how two discussions go.
Frankly I’m amazed how well this is going as blog comments rather than a Forum. In forums you need to register and login, which discourages some people and, for me, makes it messier to pay attention. I have a fairly good forum software (Vbulletin) set up at another site but do not plan to use it for this.
A thought on being prepared for emergencies: cell phones, because of the Kims’ although this wouldn’t have helped them, I bought my daughter one of the cell phone chargers that used standard AA batteries. I told her to keep it in the car and keep a LARGE fresh pack of batteries there also.
What made me remember this? She just went out with a friend for a bite to eat and I looked over on the counter and there the &$*(# thing lays!!!!!!!!! GRRRRR…..
Am not taking over tonight, really, I just post and other things pop into my head.
opinion.
Glen, you could either order the beans or already ground and as I don’t have a grinder, I just ordered already ground, but I will still give my ‘expert’
Regarding posting about the reports, right now am leaning like this:
Separate heading for each report then one one heading for combining the reports, but that does seem like a lot for Joe to monitor as well as lot for everyone to keep up with, but as I’m not very familiar with message boards & blogging, I don’t know of any other suggestions, so I’ll go quietly along with whatever is chosen.
I did it, I did it, I did a smiley!! Whopee!!
Ellen, I did not know you knew the family. No disrespect intended; you did a huge, wonderful and comprehensive job. I personally just could not ask any questions. When I read the questions they seemed overwhelming to me when putting myself in Kati’s place.
Mapper, we have more in common than you know with similar experience in times of tragedy in the family and the way it all played out among family members. I, too, had to distance myself from many, and it lasted over 10 years.
This comment got stranded on an earlier page so I’m reposting it:
I’ve read many of your comments and, along with thousands of others, agonized over the Kim’s terrible misfortune. I want to suggest that, in James Kim’s name, we have the Exit 61 from Grant’s Pass and the Road 23 removed from any maps to be used by the traveling public. May husband and I made the same mistake as the Kim family made by taking a byway to the Oregon Coast. In mid-October of this year, we were returning home to Washington State and had no clue that 23 is no more than a one-laned, graveled, dangerous Forest Service and BLM logging roads (thats plural because the roads are in a labrinth fashion). We were not driving an off-road 4-wheel drive vehicle. It took us four-plus hours to drive sixty miles and was the most frightening trip we have every taken. We were lost in a maze of S-Curves, no signs, no guard rails and our cell phone wouldn’t work. I have vertigo and probably only looked down those cliffs three times. It was a nightmare. We finally passed, then backed up to a hard surfaced road on which someone had printed “COAST” and an arrow. We followed that road and eventually got out of that miserable situation. If someone out there would please explain to me how the BLM and Forest Service can put their logging roads on travel maps, I would really appreciate knowing this. For those who are trying to
place blame for James Kim’s death, how about starting at
the bottom line-the stupid maps!!! Also, Kati Kim was correct in saying there were NO signs. Thanks for listening. I needed to say this.
Comment by Irene Huebner | December 30, 2006
Frances, my heart goes out to you, your son and you family. ::big hug::
991 – Thank you, Joe. Irene’s post was very insightful. It sounds like a nightmare!
985 – Frances, I’m more familiar than I ever wanted to be in caring for someone very, very close to me with another form of MD (very hard, in many ways), and some supposed friends/family really do flake out and just not act right. Anyway, I won’t go into it here, but I wanted you to know I’ve been down a very similar path. Thankfully, Kati’s dad has respect and class, and Ellen’s actions are those of a good family friend. Ellen, I guess I didn’t realize how close you are to the family, either, so it does feel better knowing that somehow. I really meant no offense – this is just delicate, so the questions made me kind of squirm as above, but you and Kati’s dad know much more about Kati than I do.
991 – Joe, I saw that the other day and mentioned somewhere and was kind of blown away at how recently that was and how telling.
Point of clarification: I don’t know Kati personally. My connection is through my husband’s long-standing friendship with her parents.
985- Frances, my heart goes fully out to you. I am so sorry for your son’s situation, but I’m sure he knows he is lucky to have such a caring, warm, loving mother as you. I’m sure
that’s a big part of what is behind his strength, and the fact that he is doing so well.
I too have been through quite a lot of trauma, with my
mother being ill from when I was 1 1/2 until she passed
just before I turned six. I know what it’s like to have
family members shut down or be judgmental during the most traumatic times. It can seem the greatest pain and injustice of all – inflicting insult to injury. It can seem so hard to understand, but usually it is because they truly don’t know better, and there is a part of themselves that is not healed, and cannot handle the situation better.
Much Love and Many Blessings to You, and Your Son, and
Daughter ~ And All Those Important to You
(991) WOW…I didn’t see that post Joe. Thanks for bringing that back to the top. I know a few people that I would like to see that!
997/Glenn – and a few over at MT too perhaps ??
Joe, yes thanks I hadn’t seen Irene’s post either.
But from a mapping perspective, I already knew what I needed to by looking at the ODOT map, so it doesn’t surprise me at all!
Anyway, Frances Thank you, and Maggie and Lisa. I understand your experiences, and your words, and am glad you have taken the time to post your thoughts tonight.
Best Wishes Frances, and I’m sorry to hear of your loss Lisa and your plight Maggie.
It is true that family and friends, the people closest to you, really can change when tragedy strikes, and you find out much more than you wanted to know or believe about them. But I agree with you Lisa, some people just dont know what to do or how to hanlde stuff…and well you said it best…they add insult to injury. Its best if we try to understand that they dont know better…yet its not much help to a grieving person if they are already having a loss of self due to guilt….etc. they cant really see that the person is out of line or acting inappropriatley, and dont know how to stand up for themselves. life is so sticky. hope for the best!
thanks all for your words, I am amazed by everyone here.
I like how the guys keep it on the roads
(just noticing)
lol lisa
(998) Gee thanks Paul guess I need to go do some reading over there now…LOL…yep another night no sleep – don’t mind me while I just hang upside down over here in the closet.
yeah, hang in there guys!
999- Yes mapper, usually it’s because of they way
they were brought up – a lot of people used to be
taught to stuff their emotions, or that their feelings
didn’t matter. It’s caused a lot of dysfunction in
human beings, i.e. all the addictions, alcoholism,
etc., and these things all just get passed along…
But I think it is getting better. There’s been a
vast amount of psychological research in the last
100 years devoted to determining what is healthy
emotionally for human behavior.
Do you know that serotonin, dopamine, and endorphin
levels (all feel-good chemicals in the brain), are
raised when someone does a kind or generous act or
deed – not only in the person who receives this
kindness, but also in the person who gives it, and
also – even in someone who witnesses it!
Hi Paul and everybody. Report coming out tomorrow?
If the discussion of these Reports are conducted on different pages, it will be difficult to compare and contrast the Reports. It will also be difficult to highlight the common points if the comments are spread over 3 (or more) pages. I suggest that a single page is the best approach.
I predict that most of what will likely be in the Governor’s Report and the Portland Police Report is already known by the members of this board, but these Reports must recount the basic facts for less-informed (and less obsessed) members of the public. I will be surprised if there are many valuable nuggets for Joe Duck members in either of these first two Reports.
This, of course, does not mean that these Reports are unimportant. As best as I can tell, the Portland Police have nothing to hide – in some cities, they would simply lose the missing persons complaint and then deny that they ever received it. The State might be embarrassed about the ODOT map, but that’s something that nobody would try to cover up. Consequently, these first two Reports should give us an unbiased,unslanted set of baseline facts that will likely disprove, confirm, or extend a lot of our prior speculation. In addition, we and the other groups will have a wek or more to pick these reports apart and not any discrepancies or omissions.
The JoCo Sheriff’s Report may be a different story. The people who are paid to write Reports are masters of slipping facts, obscuring arguments, missing important points, and all manner of subtle tricks that are designed to make the Report come out just like those in power want it to.
Think about it – Can you recall the last time that you heard of a government agency commissioning a Report that didn’t recommend exactly what the government agency already wanted to do? When was the last time that a Report found a public employee at fault? I can’t. But this nefarious tactic usually works because few citizens have enough facts to contradict the Report, and and if someone mounts a challenge they are dismissed as a malcontent or a gadfly. Otherwise the Report is treated as Absolutely Justification for whatever was going to happen anyway.
But the JoCo Report will be different. This Report will be carefully read by several groups of people, and each group has a different motivation, a different viewpoint, and an independent knowledge base. This Joe Duck Navy is a prime example – we aren’t trying to sell newspapers or wire stories and have no monetary reason to be here. But we are here, the JoSc Sheriff’s Office knows it, and this knowledge may well cause JoCo to be a little more circumspect than other government agencies have been in the past. In this case, a coverup would be a monumental blunder and the resulting fallout would be vocal and very fun to watch. At least from a distance.
Hi D.H.! Yes, the state’s review of the case. It should
be very interesting.
There is much I would like to discuss on that other interesting off-topic, topic… but alas, it is off-topic, and I have to call it a night ~ Goodnight!
Thanks, Joe, for reposting Irene’s post, and Irene, if you’re still here, what an interesting account of how easy it is to get lost up there! So sorry to hear of your experience.
Glenn and Paul, I’ve never been able to find the Kim discussion at MT, so gave up. I’ll leave it to you two to bring them up to speed. I had wanted to visit there just to see the nice, normal Pac posts I kept hearing about.
We’re past 1000 yet again!
1008 – http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&hl=james%20kim&st=940
1006 – Brenda, I’ve seen government agencies go after others with a vengeance if they think they’re out of line. I work for an agency in a large county government, and our Board of Supervisors has no problem naming names and putting bosses on the hot plate to answer for their actions, quite publicly. We have all sorts of oversight agencies that inspect us regularly and tell it like it is in public reports.
Josephine County asked for one of the reviews, and I don’t think it will be a rubber stamp. You are right to say that covering up is a big mistake, it surely is and almost always backfires at some point. Please don’t interpret my words to mean I think government agencies get things done quickly or even comprehensively much of the time. But if there are mitigating circumstances and factors brought out in the reports, I wouldn’t assume that it’s just one agency whitewashing another. I think by now we’ll have a sense of whether these reports are objective, as closely as we’ve been involved in this.
1008 – be afraid, be very afraid. I don’t post there, I just read and am grateful he’s there and not here.
Another 1000 comment page! I’ll be moving to a new page at about midnight, so if you have things to say tonight please go ahead and say it now.
I think we’ll be fine talking about the reports on a single page as long as we use a shorthand to discuss them.
I’d suggest this but I’m open to anything: Governor’s Report would be “GR” and pages could be indicated like this: GR30
Portland Police Report will be PPB for Portland Police Bureau….
Also note if you want to quote somebody you can cut and paste from their comment and put it in italics. To put things in italics just use the italic “tags” and put words in the middle of them: italics. Hmmm – I’m having trouble showing the tags, it’s the letter i inside less than and greater than symbols at the beginning of the italicized words and then this /i inside them at the end.
I am sure that the summary ‘questions for Kati’ will be of great help but I do so hope that Kati will first be allowed to tell her own story without any undue influence by our questions. Its important that we not suggest facts to her but that instead we listen.
could Portland report be PPB for Portland Police Bureau? County report could be OSSA…
Thx information – sounds good so I changed my comment to recommend PPB.
1011 – Paul, yikes! (Hair is standing on end from reading sample of posts at MT). Thanks to “Information” for posting a link for me as I was MT challenged. I am returning to being MT challenged, my one visit was enough. Pac was not behaving over there, so any restraint must have been in his earlier posts to this incident. This blog is mentioned on MT fairly often and roundly dissed by Pac when it comes up, of course. Glad to have made it out of there before any more incoming SCUD messages from Pac.
1007) Hi Lisa, thanks for the update. I think you lost me on the off-topic topic! Oh well, maybe some other time. Good night.
990. sorry gayle I missed your post until now. Thanks. Its sad, yet good to know my experience was not completley uncommon, as sometimes it seems like other families are perfect and do everything right. Yet we all know this isn’t really the case.
Paul,
yeah….wow, and Pac is periodically dissing the joeduck blog…probably adding to its popularity though!
I hear Joe coming to change the page, so will wake up to a brand new page to play on!
Is there someone over here called “PassingTheTime”, or know someone of that screen name? I really truly hope not. It’s an issue, and they keep talking like they’re from this blog, sort of. And in my opinion they’ve really got it out for me at MT Forum. Yes, I know… I’m not perfect…. but I was feeling stalked. I can just drop it, no problem with that. Night.
IMPORTANT!
IMPORTANT!
The Kim Search Conversation Continues over here:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-search-governors-report/
No more comments on this page please go to the new page to talk about the Kim Family Search in Oregon.
(1021) What is your screen name over on MT?
I think it is time for people to get caught up over there and see what people are saying about this blog over there.
There are a couple of people that really just don’t get it. I am glad Joe has decided to censor Pac’s posts!
DH on page 3 post (335) you link yourself directly to djdee over on MT. I have gone over to MT and read the posts over there. Of course Pac is completely out of touch.
DH I think you need to let it rest. I myself am quite disturbed by your posts over on MT both in DIRECT support of Pac and your very negative comments about this blog and the people over here. I am not looking for a fight with you here but you brought this up.
For myself I will now always wonder how genuine your posts are here especially after you sent me a private email regarding your previous comments here and what you have written to Kati’s dad.
If I were you the last thing I would want is people going over there and reading your posts. I don’t think anyone is stalking anyone but I do think you have some explaining to do. If you really do support Pac then you should go and support him, if you don’t then stop acting like you do.
There are a lot of people here spending a lot of their own time trying to make something good out of something horrible we don’t need people involved in this process flip-flopping.
I can’t speak for everyone but I feel pretty confident that nobody here that wants to help wants another Pac-a-like pretending to be something else.
This is all I am going to say about this. As far as I am concerned DH the rest is in your court. As for anyone else if you want to get very annoyed go ahead over to MT and read what is being said about our efforts over here and not just by Pac.
The Kim Search Conversation Continues over here:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-search-governors-report/
No more comments on this page please go to the new page to talk about the Kim Family Search in Oregon.
Excellent – thanks! Personally, I like the extra degree of continuity better
than I like looking like another Yahoo customer.