Kim Family Search in Rogue River Wilderness of Oregon


Kim Search discussion page ONE

Kim Search discussion page TWO

Kim Search page THREE

Kim Search page FOUR

Kim Search page FIVE

Questions for Kati Kim:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/

Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/

1,194 Responses to Kim Family Search in Rogue River Wilderness of Oregon

  1. joeduck says:

    The Kim Family Search discussion continues below. For the FIRST 1032 comments leading to this page go here: http://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/06/james-kim-search/#comments

  2. Spencer says:

    Thanks Joe.. The load and scroll time was getting a bit long.

  3. glenn says:

    So 1000 is your theshold eh Joe…

  4. Paul says:

    Think you are right, Glenn, this topic has been wrung out pretty good with the article today and 1000+ (!!!-wow) posts. There are Susan’s remaining questions, but it is hard to say if there is impetus enough for those to be run down by the media. The good news is a lot of hard questions were pursued and the answers brought to light. Almost certainly some good changes will come out of that, and I like to think Susan’s e-mails to the Oregonian played a role. As someone who recreates regularly in the Rogue corridor, I certainly hope some good changes come out of it. So great of Joe to host this site, and so many interesting and thought provoking posts.

  5. Maggie says:

    Thank you, Joe! Wow, 1000.

  6. joeduck says:

    Glenn – I think WordPress would have kept going to at least 2000 comments. However the page was about 350k,. A browser can handle a larger files than that but as Spencer noted it was loading somewhat slow even on broadband and it seemed like we should get a clean slate going.

  7. PacNWer says:

    Susan’s e-mails did nothing. Your group did nothing. You came up with no ideas of any value. The Oregonian did all of the reporting and all of the analysis. This forum has been nothing, and I do mean nothing, but a vehicle for you people to congratulate yourselves on how concerned you are, and to engage in your pointless fetish for how the Internet can solve these things. Which it cannot.

  8. mapper says:

    Pacman, we that do not even make our true identities known have nothing to gain by doing this. This is about as opposite as egotistical and arrogant as can be. I will never be congratulated for this, GIVE IT A REST!

    The Oregonian writers probably found this site as one of the first sources when they did a google search.

  9. PacNWer says:

    Excuse me, but what the hell did you or any of the rest of you contribute? The only thing you’ve done is act as the James Kim Hero Public Relations Volunteer Team. It has been a thoroughly unimpressive performance. If this is the Internet at work, then we ought to go back to beating on rocks.

  10. mapper says:

    Your the one with nothing to contribute. I really wish you would go away for the time you had promised.

    I am done responding to you.

  11. PacNWer says:

    And you know what’s even worse than telling it like it is about the Kims and the SAR team? In this crowd, the cardinal sin is to tell it like it is about the Internet and about the crowd of Positive Thinking Wannabe Wellwishers. Guess what? They’re still dead, and in the final analysis all of your keyboarding hasn’t made a hill of beans worth of a difference. You haven’t even come up with a single idea that would change anything if it happened again the day after tomorrow.

    But I have performed a great service. I have deflected your anger and frustration away from the person in the mirror. Everyone needs a lightning rod, so have at me you impotent fools!

  12. PacNWer says:

    Try it a different way: Someone, anyone, exactly what information did you provide to anyone? Come on, out with it. This ought to be really good.

  13. Paul says:

    PacNWer – I have agreed in principle with many of your comments (see some of my earliest posts), but your delivery needs so much work it is beyond pathetic. You seem to have more anger in you than Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski and Osama bin Laden put together.

    The only “great service” you have provided is to give every poster on this forum a role model for someone you would never, in a million years, want to be like.

    Go back to the Medford forum and spew your blather there, they seem to like you.

  14. joeduck says:

    PacNWer – I’m confused. You started an excellent, diplomatic, and constructive discussion over at the Mailtribune Forum here: http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1086&st=0

    But here at my humble blog you really have an axe to grind, apparently with everybody who has posted something over here – what’s up?

  15. mapper says:

    well Frances, maybe glenn was right after all, maybe he does have something to do with it. I cant think of any other reason to be such a….. about people gathering to exchange thoughts, conversation, and ideas.

    This has been great to talk to all of you, well most of you, and thanks to our wonderful host Joe.

  16. mapper says:

    joe…I am stunned for the very first time todaym (as if today wasn’t full of surprises). thanks for that link.

  17. PacNWer says:

    Simple question: What has any of you added, other than #1 making yourselves feel good and #2 promoting the Internet even though it has been totally useless in this situation? You can do nothing other than attack me, which I think is useful because it will keep you from hurting yourselves. But really: What do you have to show for yourselves?

    I have something to show for myself. I’ve boiled it down to the essentials, which is the abdication of personal responsibility. I’ve come up with a specific message to get out to the public that would SAVE LIVES if it were done.

    You people have done none of that, and you’ve rejected my message because it focuses on the Kims idiocy and irresponsibility, which you have deemed to cruel for words. So tell oh brilliant ones, what have you done?

  18. Maggie says:

    Joe – thank you for that link. I about choked. He mentions some of the same ideas tossed around here plus another good idea about radio station info that he didn’t mention here. Interesting.

  19. Paul says:

    Read ALL of his posts over there. He’s not always so nice…same M.O. – hits the same topic over and over and over, and then 300 more times just to be thorough, then scathingly ridicules anyone not on the same page. Given, he is a bit more diplomatic at times, but it’s the same ranting and raving.

    And I continue to believe he gets his Ya Yas off by getting us to respond to him.

    Thank you Joe, for weighing in. He will have some suitably antagonist, belittling response I am certain.

  20. mapper says:

    I believe the internet would be a threat to those who want to be the center, the one and only with good ideas. The inernet makes it possible for many of us to talk and come up with good ideas….this must be very hard on the narcissists among us, who believe they are the ones who should be recognized.

    really, this is all becoming very clear to me!

  21. Roy says:

    Re pakbaby. Probably belts down a few and gets increasingly crusty as the day unfolds. Best option is to ignore such posters. Vigorous dissent is possible while still maintaining a decorum of civility. Discourse with such people is usually utterly pointless.

  22. PacNWer says:

    Just call me the chilly wind that knows no fear or favor. Somebody’s dead, and three others almost bought the farm, because of all these absolutely lame-brain misjudgments and character flaws run rampant in a society that would rather stamp “hero” on them than hurt anyone’s feelings.

    James Kim died because he was too irresponsible to turn around on a snowy night, and because some undersheriff wanted to watch a football game rather than pick up the phone. Meanwhile, a bunch of his geek friends mentally masturbated about the Internet while deciding that telling it like it is was too cruel.

    I’m telling you, this minor tragedy rather neatly encapsulates a whole lot of problems that we’ve got as a people.

  23. mapper says:

    run of the mill sociopath if you ask me, but roy might also be right on with the alcoholic slant too….lol Roy.

  24. PacNWer says:

    Yeah, Frances, I know James Kim is your hero. Bad choice. Try a Marvel comic book. They make more sense.

  25. joeduck says:

    Thanks mapper and thanks for all the excellent input.

    PacNWer – I think it’s too early to know if the type of online environment we’ve talked about over the past few days will help in future cases.

    Note that friends of the missing climbers in China now have a blog set up for that distant rescue effort: http://fowlerboskoff.blogspot.com

    My thinking is that often people die as much from a lack of quality information flow and lack of good information processing as from the natural hazards. The internet is good at managing information and getting it out fast to people who can process it.

  26. Roy says:

    Joe, tried 4 times to post the (now modified) link below, but the post never shows up. Leaving out the ht tp colon doubleslash part to see if it goes through

    http://www.adn.com/outdoors/story/8499801p-8393134c.html

  27. joeduck says:

    Roy did you get an error message? Link and post seems to be OK now. Normally WordPress should take your http:// OR your www. and turn it into a link automatically.

  28. RobZ says:

    First, it seems there are at least two story lines – and two threads of discussion: 1) what the Kims did and 2) what the searchers did. Would it make sense to discuss these two story lines on two different pages?

    In regards to what the Kims did, I think most agree they made several mistakes during the evening of Saturday, November 25, but these mistakes might not have been fatal.

    As I questioned before (#353 in previous discussion) and as Roy is now suggesting (#992 in previous discussion), the turning point for the Kims was probably the intersection where NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36 fork. I believe that, in the dark and rain or snow, the Kims never saw the small sign pointing the way to the coast and never heading down NF 23. On this point, I am not convinced that Kati Kim’s memory is accurate when she talks about moving rocks and backing up. Rather I believe, without the gate locked to stop or warn them, they unknowlingly followed BLM 34-8-36 past this intersection and continued on this narrowing and long logging road until they had no opportunity to turn around. I can’t believe that they knowingly went down the wrong road thinking or hoping it would lead to the coast.

    Thus, again I question or suggest that the BLM’s failure to lock the gate at that intersection was critical. Had the gate been locked, the Kims might have continued along and up NF-23, perhaps making it to the other side, or perhaps more likely being forced to stop. But NF 23 was searched much sooner than BLM 34-8-36 and it is likely they would have been found sooner. Or perhaps they would have turned around at that critical intersection, where there should be enough room to turn around, and headed back to Galice and to safety for the night.

    But I have not seen any of the news reports, including the great report in the recent Oregonian, really resolve this key question.

    Do others agree the Kims most likely never went on NF 23?

  29. Frances says:

    Could Pacman (I like that – he’s going to gobbel us up – oh – scared – be the unheard of, unknown mystery sherriff?

    OK, OK, totally and completely petty & facetious

  30. Roy says:

    Joe, posted links previously on your site without problems. Didnt get an error message this time. Looked like the post went through, but it was never on the refreshed page after clicking submit.

    Tried to attach it to this post, but once again it didnt show up. Am using IE7. Maybe something distinct to my computer…

  31. Paul says:

    Rob Z – clarifying – never went on NF 23 past that junction ? That is an interesting theory. I have not checked to see if the original very lengthy press conference from the Oregon State Police is still up. My memory is that in the conf the officer said Kati Kim said they backed up Bear Camp down to that junction after they could go no further, that that was when James had the door open (so he could see backwards…seems WAY more probable you would have the door open to back up – I’ve been in some incredible snows and never opened the door so I could see FORWARDs as the paper claimed today). I need to listen to that press conf if it is still available.

    I have trouble reconciling the version in todays paper with my memory of the account in the press conf….and, in many respects, your theory makes more sense, but Kati Kims account seems to contradict it.

  32. Paul says:

    If they went up Bear Camp PAST the junction why wouldn’t they just keep backing down BC instead of going down that junction…unless you had such a bad case of get-there-itis you thought it might ultimately get you to Gold Beach.

  33. Roy says:

    RobZ,

    I too think its highly unlikely they ever went any further down NF23 than where they veered left at that fork. The two explanations attributed to Kati, namely 1. They went down this road looking for a place to turn around (wildy implausible. Doesnt take 20 miles down a logging road the find a place to turn around, plus they could have easily done a 3 point turn at the wide bear camp/blm road fork) and 2. They wanted to head downhill to get out of the snow (seems implausible, makes much more sense to just drive out the way they came on 23. They knew it also headed downhill and to civilization. Plus in very limited visibility how would they even have known the BLM road went downhill, or wouldnt start climbing steeply around the next bend).

    Ive yet to see any plausbile rationale as to why they would drive 20 miles down a logging road unless they didnt realize they’d left 23. Its the only thing that makes sense. To me anyway.

  34. glenn says:

    Pac…man I am really holding back here. You have no idea who you are playing with.

    In any event…considering the tone and approach of your recent posts we must have hit a home run! You just happen to be on the opposing team and you just lost…I laugh in your general direction.

    We busted our butts here and worked directly with Peter Sleeth and got this information out…sorry your life sucks now because of it…but WE WON!

    We will make a difference in the long run…PERIOD.

    Bye bye

  35. Roy says:

    er veered right at the fork. Sorry. Always getting my left/right mixed up. Not the best person to ask for directions.

    Roy

  36. Paul says:

    Glenn, I’m with Roy on PacNWer, and I know I have said it before and then made the mistake of letting him suck me in again with his vitriol, but I will not again. To quote Roy: “Best option is to ignore such posters. Vigorous dissent is possible while still maintaining a decorum of civility. Discourse with such people is usually utterly pointless.”

    Utterly and totally.

  37. Roy says:

    It is also possible that they thought they made the wrong turn long after they turned onto the BLM road. Ie they are on the BLM road, but still think they are on the right road, then after it gets narrower and narrower think they probably made a wrong turn at one of the BLM road forks–not realizing their wrong turn was way back at the Bear Camp/BLM fork (They might not even have seen the road going up to the left, the real NF23).
    Roy

  38. Paul says:

    That just makes so much more sense than any of the other versions (veered right in error at the junction)…

  39. Paul says:

    It was the one thing about todays newspaper account I found lacking…they kind of glossed over it.

  40. joeduck says:

    Roy – sorry but I can only think it’s some quirky WordPress thing that does not like the format. This is supposed to kick it into “moderation” but I don’t have any in the moderation queue at this time.

    RobZ if a lot of people say to break this up into separate sections I’m happy to do that, but I hate to make people bounce around that much since all this Kim Search stuff is related. There are now many comments in other posts relating to this discussion so I’m sticking to the “one case/one set of comments” for now.

    An alternative could be a threaded discussion forum but that requires logins and in I often get frustrated trying to find and follow related threads.

  41. Maggie says:

    Rob (33+), I think it is definitely possible that they never went past that junction on NF 23/Bear Camp Rd. There are a few other roads off of 34-8-36 where they may have backed up, and since they were so very lost, I don’t know whether Kati would necessarily be able to say for certain where exactly they were when they backed up, especially if they did think that they were still on that same road – maybe I’m wrong. After seeing pictures of that fork in the road and watching the CNN report about how confusing it is and how small the sign pointing to the coast is (kind of tacked onto the bottom of the larger signs, if I remember correctly), my hunch is that they took that wider turn to the right, not realizing they’d gone off the path. Pure speculation. I don’t think we will ever know for certain.

  42. Frances says:

    Ok, PacNWer, show me ONE place where your brilliant message has been gotten out to the public and you’re specific message has been implemented & exactly WHERE you have made ANY difference?

    Your pat yourself on the back for something you haven’t accomplished. None here has claimed to have accomplished anything of any great significance.

    People are equal here, not a pack of your followers as on the message board Joe linked to.

    Is is amazing that you actually talk like a human over there but here represent yourself as as a wild eyed, self absored, self appointed God. Split personality disorder, might have hit on something there…

  43. Frances says:

    Ok, admittedly didn’t read all the post – not interested in getting in another message board ( I know this isn’t officially a message board, but blog) & especially not where Pacman is.

  44. Frances says:

    Why are you upset the undersherriff was watching a football game instead of doing his job? It was the Kims fault that he was even asked to leave his football game. Geesh, pacman, slipping there a bit aren’t you?

  45. glenn says:

    (40)…thanks for your comments Paul…but as we all know Pac is a putz (sorry but you all know it). It is time he is exposed – the article today must have left him speechless and his response tonight is definitely linked to things happening today. Something hit close to home for Pac today and if he continues to post he should come clean so we can really engage in an intelligent conversation.

    Pac whatever it is…you are connected to this situation whether it is CNET related, SAR related or maybe you just don’t like the Kim’s for some reason.

    Come out from hiding and let us all in on your little game.

    You know there are people that are putting in their time to improve this horrible situation – people should respect that – if you don’t then you must be trying to cover this up.

    One last thing Pac…your posts are what drive me to want the truth to come out even more. So if you think you are deflecting us…for me anyway you are fueling me to go further.

  46. Frances says:

    Na, Pacman. I much perfer Barbies – she’s done everything in the world, has everything in the world but doesn’t have a brain in her head. Now THAT’s a real hero!!

  47. Lisa says:

    PacNwer – It is a free country – is it not? A lot of
    good ideas have been generated and discussed here. If you don’t like it, don’t participate. It sounds like this is just a source of frustration for you. You seem to have a short fuse and little tolerance for other views.

    We have a lot. We don’t hate you – but if you feel attacked
    you must realize that you tend to attack first. You can call us all the things you want, trying to satisfy yourself with your cleverness. But it is futile my friend, or foe – take your pick.

    You seem to have a fetish for condemnation. I kind of
    feel for you… But it is of your own choosing. Personal
    responsibility as you like to refer to it. This isn’t
    an argument you’re going to win, or can win. This is bigger
    than just an argument. So if that is your aspiration again –
    you will not achieve your desire.

    “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead …

    We are not out to change the whole world, but we are here
    to discuss these issues. And who is to say what might
    ultimately come from it…

    RE: 33

    Is Bear Camp NF 23 from the beginning, or does that begin
    at the fork – I have not seen those maps.

    From all the reports I’ve read they took Bear Camp to the
    fork and continued on BLM 34-8-36.

    I think actually that one of Sara R’s mislead assumptions
    was that they would have been on Bear Camp Rd. because
    they would have seen the sign to the coast.In the article she says that is what she feels the most guilty about – not realizing that they wouldn’t have seen it because it was snowing.

  48. Maggie says:

    Lisa, from the exit off I-5, it’s Galice Rd, which turns into BLM Road 34-8-36, but then turns into FS 23. The Kim’s basically continued on 34-8-36 to get to where the car was found (whether they went down FS 23, the actual continuation of Bear Camp Road, at all is the question), which is no longer Bear Camp Road. I know, confusing, huh?

    Take a look at this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Camp_Road

  49. Lisa says:

    RE: 48

    Thanks Maggie!

  50. Maggie says:

    After saying that, I wonder if the actual “Bear Camp Road” portion is commonly referred to only as the FS 23 portion after finding this:

    http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2005/0602/sport/stories/03sport.htm

    Still, 34-8-36 starts well prior to where it meets FS 23, and the fork to the right is still 34-8-36. FS 23 heads more straight and eventually gets to the coast.

  51. Lisa says:

    RE: 50

    Thanks for that too! I wonder why the numbers work that way.
    Maybe it’s because the Forest Service boundaries are near
    the fork. Anyway, I have to call it a night!

  52. joeduck says:

    Maggie I don’t think there is a “standard convention” for naming the roads up there even by BLM and USFS. I think the raft guide services use “Bear Camp” to mean the whole route from Galice to Gold Beach. Locally people generally talk about the “Bear Camp” route as the combination of roads from Merlin to Galice to Agness to Gold Beach which includes the Merlin to Galice Road, BLM 34-8-36 NF23, and I think NF 33 as well.

  53. RobZ says:

    Re #33 (and #35-37, 39, 41-43, 45, 48-50): Just to be explicit, I believe there is plenty of blame to go around: 1) BLM could have locked the gate on November 1, as they were supposed to have done. 2) The Kims could have avoided getting into the situation they got themselves into. 3) The SAR could have been conducted better.

    Of course, our purpose isn’t to assign blame but to understand what wrong so as to better avoid a similar situation in the future. In the case of the Kims, I think they would have had a better chance of correcting their earlier mistakes if BLM hadn’t made its mistake.

    But, for now, my sense is just speculation. I’d like to read the media reports of what Kati said more carefully, and also study the elevation profile of the roads to see where the road goes up and down. In particular, Kati’s comment that they went a particular way to get to a lower elevation doesn’t necessarily make sense. If it was dark, and raining or snowing, they couldn’t see more than a hundred yards or so, if that, to tell if a road went up or down. I think the only way to know whether a particular road continued up or down was to drive it.

    Paul (#43): Yes, even the recent Oregonian article didn’t really address the fork in the road. I’d like to email them to see if they know more than they wrote.

  54. Maggie says:

    Thanks, Joe. That was how I first understood it until I ran across the mailtribune.com article – in any case, definitely can see how it can be confusing. Thank you for clarifying!

  55. Paul says:

    I can’t speak to what the BLM fork does as I have never been down it, but I can verify the Wikipedia description as accurate. Bear Camp, as I have always known it, climbs fairly quickly after you leave the Rogue river. It winds past some houses after leaving the Rogue, then climbs at a steep and fairly consistent pace until you reach the ridgetop. It is a pretty good climb – elevation at Galice being about 700, Bear Camp Summit is 4500.

  56. joeduck says:

    Maggie I just read that MailTribune Article you linked and it did seem to have researched the names well. I’m still confused how many people would say “Bear Camp” only means NF23 rather than the whole route.

  57. RobZ says:

    Joe (#44): It’s your site and I respect your thinking. Maybe it would help for people to include a “subject line” to start each post to help follow the different threads. But maybe it is fine as it is. In any case, splitting the discussion was just a suggestion…

  58. Navigator says:

    A quick observation on ‘processes’ in the last two sentences of post 28.

    The one part of this story which seems to get better with time and multiple news reports, are the actions taken by the employees at EDGE communications. When I first read about their involvement I was struck by the ‘self starting’ nature of those engineers, while marveling at what must be a truly streamlined corporate environment. This organization had far more reasons to fail at disseminating their synergetic information which ultimately was the cause and circumstance for discovering the Kim’s.

    They developed an ad hoc process creating information which was accurate and timely. They did this without profit motive, politics, and ego or government mandate. How many can honestly say they work in such an environment? I can hear numerous responses from past and present workplaces; ‘that’s not our concern’ or ‘people are already working on that, don’t you think they know what they are doing?’ or “only George knows how to access that information and he’s on vacation’ finally ‘did you fill out a Form 7765a/1 ?’ the last is a personal favorite.

    The greatest information has no value if it is inhibited by faults in the ‘process.’ There is an entire industry devoted to process mapping, development and testing. Although largely overlooked by many organizations or dismissed as ‘we’ve already done that’ a study of the actions taken by EDGE may provide a worthwhile benchmark.

    From past posts one can already glean which occupations should require licensing or accreditation versus appointment. I’m assuming the engineers at EDGE were not appointed to their respective positions.

  59. Frances says:

    RobZ, I understand what you’re saying regarding the post, but my vote goes with keep it like it is. In each post, most address a variety of topics and it often would be hard to narrow it down to one subject. Yes, to get the understanding of what has been said you have to go back & read a lot & for those of us who’ve been on here for a while, it was getting a bit much to scroll all the way up & down, so it was a good thing Joe did to split it, but I also like that he kept it in the same format. I feel more like it’s a group of people bouncing ideas, thoughts & feelings around as if they were in the same room sharing & brainstorming.

  60. Frances says:

    Joe, this is where I got confused back a little earlier. Bear Camp and N23 – for a while I thought they were one & the same.

  61. Maggie says:

    60 – Navigator, great point about EDGE! I, too, was amazed at how they were able to just take initiative and make it happen and provide quick information. Imagine if everything worked so efficiently…

    58 – Frances, I tend to agree with keeping this as is since there are often various subjects in one post, and I find it easier to find everything on one page.

  62. PacNWer says:

    joeduck (#28) you’re right it’s too early. Maybe eventually it will work. Meantime, someone ought to say the truth about it up to now. No pain, no gain.

    frances (#29), you don’t seem to understand that a LE professional is always on duty even when off-duty. Taking that phone call was his job. By not taking it, he got someone killed. No excuse. Same deal with the Kims. Female animals take better care of their young than Mrs. Kim did, and male animals do a better job of protecting their young than Mr. Kim did. Dumb and Dumber is this story.

  63. Paul says:

    RE: Joe/#56: Can’t speak for other outdoors folks, but in my experience rafters, outfitters and guides have commonly referenced the entire stretch from the turn off just before Galice all the way to Agness as Bear Camp road. Several accounts have also referenced the road the runs from Merlin to Galice as Bear Camp, which I had never heard before. That is a distinct and separate road, the Galice Rd. or also called Merlin/Galice Rd.

  64. bamadad says:

    The NBC Today program this morning interviewed Peter Sleeth about his Oregonian article. (highlighted by the Oregon State football watching debacle). Matt Lauer had clips from State Police saying they were reviewing procedures, but a nearby County sheriff (who was not on camera) said he thought the Kim search was well run. ( well maybe in his County)

    So thanks to anyone here who communicated with Peter Sleeth, it gives him support that he is pursuing a worthy story which hopefully will result in the State Police or even the Governor improving SAR procedures.

    For instance, combinations of minimum training, certifications, credentialing for County SAR coordinators could be raised. The thresholds when the State Police take charge of the search could be set or improved. Most Counties probably need no help, and just do fine with the current setup.

    The Statewide SAR coordinator should have the Governor’s support to make this happen. I’ll bet the State has a great record for SAR results overall, but something fell apart on this one search. Maybe just a few tweaks are necessary statewide, once the specific leadership problem is fixed. The Mt.Hood search for lost climbers now underway shows how professional a search can be. An amazing, well coordinated, dedicated effort. So the talent is there in abundance.

    Some stats: http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/docs/sar/sar_annual_report_2005.pdf

    95% of searchs which locate missing people on land are completed within 24 hours. 2005 SAR Report Oregon, Chart, page 53.

    Josephine County had about 10 searchs (missions) for Missing Persons, Beacons, + Rescues during 2005. 2005 SAR Report, page 20. (note there is a higher number of 38 but these include 12 training missions, evidence searches, civic stuff, etc.) Unbudgeted expenditures in at least the Josephine County 2005 budget don’t seem to be a problem from the charts. (just $40 for food). The county had an impressive 7200 hours of volunteer work, by the Sheriff’s SAR team, dog handlers, mountain rescuers, etc. Magnificent.

    Statewide (2005) SAR Report page 7 + 33, “from the chart, we can see that 86% of all SAR missions ended with all subjects recovered alive.” The subject stayed lost (3%) or was found dead (9%) or multiple (one dead,one alive–1%) or not reported (1%) in the remainder of searches.

    Since almost 90% of searches are for Oregon residents, hopefully the very few local residents who do, will complain less about in state/ out of state.

    Sunday, December 17, 2006, Oregonian.
    “About 730 people got lost or needed rescue in Oregon last year. Only 24 were climbers, and fewer than 12 percent came from out of state.” Susan Nielson in Oregonian. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/susan_nielsen/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166234137153910.xml&coll=7

    Also from Susan’s great column, “As far as I know, nobody charges and nobody wants to,” says Georges Kleinbaum, the [Oregon]state search and rescue coordinator. If people worry about getting billed, he explains, they’re more likely to delay calling for help, whether for an injured companion, missing friend or lost child.”

    Here is the site for his annual Oregon SAR reports, etc. http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml

    I hope we hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS. IMHO they need to review signage throughout their inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest intersections and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe they already do something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.

  65. bamadad says:

    So here is Mr. Georges Kleinbaum public info from his annual report. Hope it is still current.

    If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or critiques of this report, please send them to:
    Search and Rescue Coordinator
    Oregon Emergency Management
    P.O. Box 14370
    Salem, OR 97309-5062
    You may also contact the State Search and Rescue Coordinator by e-mail at:
    gkleinba@oem.state.or.us

  66. Maggie says:

    63 – Paul, yes, it does look like most current articles refer to it the way you said Galice to Agness – there have been just enough variations (the biggest one being the one that I mentioned finding in post #50 where mailtribune.com article refers to it as only FS 23) to make it a little unclear for those of us not familiar with it. Whatever the locals say is good enough for me – wherever it actually starts, the Kim’s definitely wound up off of it.

  67. joeduck says:

    Paul I think your’s is the most common usage but reading my own old posts I also made the mistake of implying that the Merlin-Galice Road = Bear Camp Road because I thought they were used interchangeably. I’ve been up to Galice about a dozen times over the years for rafting, further when getting shuttled back from wilderness rafting trips.

    Part of the confusion is “Bear Camp Route” which would almost always mean Merlin exit of I-5 to Gold Beach on 101 VS the “Bear Camp Road” which technically is probably ONLY NF23 though I’m still not sure about that.

    Google online mapping, I think wrongly, shows a “Bear Camp Road” shooting to the right near junction of the BLM road up from Galice and NF23. There was talk of this as a detour and I’m anxious to get up there in the spring to see the layout and also hike into Big Windy Creek.

  68. Susan says:

    Here’s part of the response I got from BLM. The first part of the letter just reiterates what BLM has already told the press. I have to say, that whether the BLM used to close and lock that gate or not, and for whatever reason a BLM employee did not lock it and follow up, the BLM is doing an excellent job of keeping the public informed. And they are looking forward to how improvements can be made.

    “In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern
    Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of
    experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road
    #34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
    purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to
    those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for
    future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
    roads provide public access.”

  69. bamadad says:

    Excellent start by BLM and good job by you Susan. Smiles.

  70. mapper says:

    glad to hear that susan. But from my thinking, no one has pointed the finger enough at BLM/ National Forest. I think they actually know they should be doing more in that area and it IS their responsibility. I think they must be embarassed and relieved that more people are talking about SAR and Josephine County than them.

    I’m very happy either way, that they realize this.

  71. Gayle says:

    On MSNBC…
    Was the search for James Kim mismanaged?
    Dec. 18: New details are emerging about the search and rescue operation for the California father and husband, who died trying to find help for his wife and daughters in the Oregon wilderness. NBC’s Jennifer London reports.

    http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??f=00&g=21b85ef0-68e1-41a0-91a5-d4e4a01113f0&p=hotvideo_m_edpicks&t=m5&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16262193/&fg=

  72. Gayle says:

    Re: #70 If link does not work…

    http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm

    Then select video.

  73. Paul says:

    Joe – I will be most interested to hear your account of what the Windy River drainage is like. I’ve done day hikes up several of the drainages from the Rogue (though never Big W.) and they are arduous, to say the least. If we get a permit again I will likely try to go BW, but my impression is you can’t get far before there is a cliff.

    Bob H. has disappeared, I was hoping to hear from him how the Oregonian article has resonated in the local community.

  74. mapper says:

    ps. susan. my thinking is also that….blm/national forest…well that is what it is….national.

    I think we all have a right to weigh in on that. Can you tell me who you contacted/emailed? I wouldnt mind adding my two cents, whether or not they read it.

  75. Maggie says:

    70 – Thank you for the link, Gayle.

  76. Lisa says:

    I know that Kati Kim likes to write – so maybe one day
    she will write the story and the course of events as she best remembers it. But being that it was dark – and not just dark but ‘up in the mountains dark’ and snowing,
    being that they were taken by such surprise at the actual conditions up there, and that it all led up to such trauma -who knows how accurate or detailed her memory witll be. Also, she may not choose to be interviewed or write about it. And I respect whatever choices she makes.

    It seems to me that even though there were warning signs –
    they thought they were just warning signs, and they didn’t
    expect the conditions to be that serious at that time of
    year in Southern Oregon.

    I read one quote where she said “it just got out of control
    on the road.”

  77. Susan says:

    72- BLM email is Michael_Campbell@blm.gov
    I just emailed him back with Bob H’s suggestion about gates on either end, that say road closed-local traffic only, but it can be driven around, so locals can use it, but others realize there is no thru traffic.
    I think BLM has handled themselves well. They reported the vandalism. Then they reported their mistake, that it was not vandalism. And now they are looking into solutions.

    It is too bad it was not locked on November 1. But like I have said before, no matter how many gates and signs, and no matter how smart we are, people are people, we make mistakes, we get lost. Someone will get lost there again, according to that article on Sunday, most likely a local, so Josephine county still has a lot of work to do on their coordination and communication.

  78. mapper says:

    I agree with you. But no one has mentioned the National Forest at all really, and I do believe they are responsible for maps of that area. I will contact them.

  79. Susan says:

    76, Thanks, that reminded me about my idea for the map signs for the logging roads, with the “you are here” dots, I just emailed him that suggestion as well.

  80. Navigator says:

    A process redesign for the BLM gate near Bear Camp Rd.

    Presently, the gate is locked closed on or around 1 Nov. From past posts the lock or locks have been cut so people could gain access during the ‘closed’ season for purposes of hunting, snow mobile riding or cross country skiing, etc.

    The before mentioned has failed and seems unnecessary by locals who want to utilize the area during the winter.

    Proposal, have the gate locked OPEN by the BLM. When it is deemed safe, the gate can be latched in the open position until winter. The gate should be operable by locals wanting to use the area in the winter. This new gate would remain open for approx 30 seconds (allowing one vehicle to pass) before a self closing device, passively returns it to the closed position. A sign on the gate could indicate DEAD END or local traffic only.

    From this I’m assuming the people who previously cut through the locked gate would be happier. Additionally assuming, a closed gate was message enough to out of area travelers wishing to proceed to the coast.

    This seems like a relatively cheap approach and an easy pilot study for future applications.

  81. mapper says:

    yes, and its one of the best ideas, and inexpensive to boot. your right that people will still get lost, but this could help so many people that do, or help them not to get lost.

    but, I do beleive we need to contact the national forest specifically, or it would be a joint project between the blm/national forest. I am not completley sure how the two split responsiblities but I know the national forest does mapping or at least provides maps.

  82. mapper says:

    sorry, my post (79) is referring to (77)

  83. Lisa says:

    Great work guys!

  84. Kip says:

    I wonder if any changes in the confusing signage at the NF 23 / BLM 34-8-36 junction have been made, YET?

    Would seem an imperative, simple, common sense remedial matter but I wouldn’t be surprised if it remains now as before.

  85. Kip says:

    Locked gates on public roads restrict the use of those roads to the public who WANT to use them.

    If the signs at that junction were large and appropriately positioned a locked gate would not be required.

  86. Lisa says:

    RE: 85,86 Kip

    Hi Kip! I had wanted to thank you for:

    797] Much of what I have been thinking and feeling during the unfolding of this tragedy you have expressed very well. . Your passionate and caring nature comes through loud and clear. I am reminded of James. Thanks Lisa.

    Comment by Kip | December 16, 2006

    I was wondering if you knew James directly or indirectly?
    Of course it’s up to you whether you want to say anything
    about that or not. I was just curious.

    Mostly, I had wanted to thank you, and then I didn’t know if you were still reading.

  87. Frances says:

    PacNWer, I was being smart alec & picking at you – of course I know they are always on duty, sheesh…

  88. mapper says:

    Kip, I am neutral on gates on roads.

    I am most frustrated with the lack of direction there seems to be on that road, and the national forest and blm clearly have responsiblities in that area. Then, when someone gets in trouble up there its up to Josehpine County to act!

    I liked Bob’s idea on the gates (seemed very reasonable) but like I said, I’m neutral.

    The thing is, it sounds terribly easy to get lost up there, and its not normal to have so little help to travelers, and we are talking about federal land, locals might know their way around but even they have had trouble from what I have read. Come on National Forest and BLM give the people some tools to work with so they dont get into trouble!!!!!!!!!

    I mean, look at everyone having trouble even with the roads naming convention!!! This is not good or normal!!! I feel this needs to be addressed by the national forest and blm.

    Okay, I have said that enough, thanks for listening.

  89. Paul says:

    Check this out, brief but intriguing…looks like they’ve stirred up the hornets nest, i.e. ” Law enforcement agencies that were involved in the search have challenged the article’s claims. ”

    http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121806_news_kim_search_debacle_.20ecb8d1.html

  90. PacNWer says:

    #76, if Mrs. Kim likes to write, then let’s hope she likes to write the truth. “It just got out of control out there?” Sorry, not good enough. That woman’s got some explaining to do:

    1. Were they aware of the winter storm forecast?

    2. They had lived in Eugene. Were they aware of the standard routes to the coast? Did they ever intend to take Hwy. 42 or were they set on Bear Camp Road as a shortcut even before they “missed” the Hwy. 42 exit?

    3. They had brunch in Portland but didn’t get to Roseburg until 8 p.m. even though it’s a three-hour drive there. What took them so long?

    4. There was a rain/snow mix falling when they ignored the first warning sign. Snow was falling when they ignored the next two warning signs. Why did they keep going?

    5. Were they so focused on getting to that resort in Gold Beach that they allowed themselves to ignore obvious warnings?

    6. They used an ODOT map, and you can’t see Bear Camp Road on that map without spotting the warning label, “This route closed in winter.” What did they think about the warning?

    7. When did they get gas that day?

    8. They didn’t even have rain clothing let alone snow clothing. They had lived in Eugene for several years. Come on, what’s up with that?

    9. As they ignored all these warnings, did they never think about their two children? Mr. Kim was 35 years old and she is 30 years old. They are allegedly “brilliant,” and they are not a couple of kids.

    So, Mrs. Kim, do write. And do tell the truth. Thank you!

  91. Susan says:

    86, I agree, Bob’s suggestion that there are gates at both ends of Bear Camp Road, they say no thru traffic, but they only close one lane, so you can drive around them for local traffic. Add to that those map signs with the little red dots, for the locals that get lost or the tourists that ignore the closed gates and then get lost.

  92. PacNWer says:

    To the extent that improvements are made to Bear Camp Rd., government entities — the BLM, probably — might wind up assuming a bunch of liabilities implied by treating Bear Camp differently than other roads. This begs the question of whether or not to improve Bear Camp Rd into a state highway equivalent to Hwy. 38 or Hwy. 42.

    Of course, you’d wind up with a state highway running between two wilderness areas. But it would do much to assure that future clueless travelers wouldn’t be stranded, because it would be better marked, have smoother grades and better maintenance.

    This might be the answer: Rip up some of the last remaining wilderness so as not to endanger any more brilliant people.

  93. Kip says:

    Lisa, Hello! you ask if I knew James? .. no, not much more than I know you but sometimes that’s enough for essences to sparkle through

  94. Spencer says:

    Susan – re:91 – The road is only one lane.. If you gate one lane, the road is fully gated :)

    I’ve said this before, there are side access roads that could meet Bear Camp road past the gate.. You don’t even have to lock the gate if one is installed, just engineer a way to make sure it self closes. There is a 2 mile stretch about 8 miles from galice where the road really starts the climb to Bear Camp – those 2 miles are almost a 10% grade. I’d say a gate at the bottom of this would make sense.

    People can take side roads to detour back around (just a couple miles of detour) or gate the road and have a 10″ wide space to go around. The presense of the gate will prevent the unwary people trying to go to the coast but people willing and capable to navigate can still get through.

    There are more than a few less remote, less dangerous roads in the state that are gated – the only access is made available by foot/ski or snowmobile.

  95. Lisa says:

    RE: 95

    That sounds like a good idea.

  96. PacNWer says:

    #94, I couldn’t care less what they ate or how many times they stopped to go to the bathroom. I don’t think it’s a crime that they were late getting to Roseburg. It’s probably the least important of my questions, but the answer would help round out the picture.

    Knowing where they were going is a big issue, and several of my questions bear on it. If they packed for the moment, there’s no crime in that, either, but they sure as hell had no business on a snowy mountain road in a storm that any fool had to have seen right outside the car windows.

    In fact, James Kim had to open his car door to be able to drive. Wouldn’t you think that he’d have known is was “winter?” I am not one bit forgiving of the undersheriff who failed to answer his phone during a football game, nor am I inclined to be too forgiving to the Kims.

    One mistake or two mistakes, okay. But those people racked up a very long list of misjudgments that, when taken together, constitute negligence and gross irresponsibility. The SAR team should have gotten them out of there, but they should have never been there in the first place.

    And yes, if people are going to be as stupid as the Kims were, then they’d be better off staying home.

  97. Lisa says:

    Also, Re: 93

    Thanks Kip! That’s true – I love that!

  98. Lisa says:

    PacNWer – I think your name should be “packin grrrrr”…

    But really are you able to discuss these issues without
    insulting people?

    Why do you do it? Why does it interest you?

  99. Susan says:

    Pac, how about if we say you are right, the Kims made mistakes, no one on this forum has done a single thing to solve or improve the situation, we are just here to make ourselves feel better. You won. Now please move along and start your next fight elsewhere.

  100. Pingback: Blog Tag Game « Joe Duck

  101. tara says:

    the sheriff for the mount hood rescue states that the state of oregon has given him EVERY RESOURCE AVAILABLE and the US military at his disposal.
    I guess it just takes calling…. that doesnt sound like a money thing to me.

  102. Frances says:

    As the Kims were so stupid and incompentent, they should’ve just stayed home & never go anywhere.

    I know, up to a certain point, it would be helpful to know about the Kims thought process and actions, but there is also a point where it just plain doesn’t matter. How about how many times they stopped to go to the restroom, they took too long eating, they ate the wrong things – knowing they were going to be traveling…etc. etc.
    When you travel with two little kids, especially one being a baby, there are certain things which you are must take, these things take up a lot of room, abiet, rain coats, etc. don’t take up much room. Also, some people pack for unforseen and some pack just for the moment. This is the difference in people. And don’t even go into the unprepared stuff, that has been covered over & over.

  103. Lisa says:

    RE: 89

    Thanks Paul, that’s interesting. It sounded
    like the article really got it right. I wonder
    what the law enforcement protests are.

  104. Maggie says:

    89-Paul, thank you for the link. Interesting. I’m curious, too, where LE believes the article is incorrect. It definitely did seem to explain quite a bit and match up well from what we know. Once again, if they do have a different side of the story to tell, I’d sure love to hear it – maybe that article will prompt them to do so (but probably not).

  105. Lisa says:

    Re: 102 Tara

    That’s true. I do remember hearing the undersherriff
    saying in one of the press conferences that ‘we don’t have
    a lot of money here in Josephine County’- making it sound
    like that was one of the reasons why they weren’t doing
    more. So, I don’t know – maybe they didn’t realize what
    resources could really be at their disposal? I know that
    almost seems to give them too much of an excuse for not doing more. Sara R definitely didn’t call in those heat seeking helicopters.

    I wonder why she didn’t. I guess at that point she wasn’t
    convinced they were stranded in the area? And thought she might look foolish for requesting such a large operation?

  106. Paul says:

    I e-mailed the link to yesterdays Oregonian article to the reporters at the San Fran Chronicle who wrote the 12/10 article. Bigger paper, in theory more resources to investigate with, lots of local interest down there, you would think they would want to know more, but I have not heard back yet.

  107. PacNWer says:

    The [i]San Francisco Chronicle[/i] is a good choice for you, because they’ve fully bought into the James Kim, American Hero line and therefore will be happy to ignore the Kim family’s irresponsibility while magnifying that of the SAR managers.

  108. Spencer says:

    Lisa – the only reference Anderson made to “not being a wealthy county” was in response to the question “why doesn’t Josephine County have any copters up.” They don’t have helicopters period. That doesn’t excuse not utilizing the military birds in a timely manner (as the Oregonian article alleged) but he wasn’t making an excuse for their efforts.

    Going back to the football game/phone call thing.. I wonder what the expectation of an “undersheriff” is to be available for calls on their day off. I’m somewhat sympathetic to allowing law enforcement officers days off where they are 100% free from the stress of work – it’s a stressful job – I believe the demands of the job require uninterrupted time off. The Oregon Live article doesn’t shed a good light on him there.

  109. Maggie says:

    105-Lisa, that’s one that I really wonder about, too, the Natl Guard helicopters just sitting there in Salem for two nights waiting for the call that Sarah Rubrecht never made, even though they were actively searching in that area by then. Was there something wrong with the flow of information so that Sarah Rubrecht didn’t receive it, such as the report from the couple who was not able to complete their assignment to check that road where tire tracks (and bear tracks) were seen? Did she have info but just not know that the Natl Guard heat-seeking helicopters were available to her (though Curry County seemed to know and did use them)? If that’s the case, did her boss, Brian Anderson also not know that they were available? Or his boss? Again, questions I doubt will ever be answered, but just that piece alone is plenty damning and says a lot about how screwed up the supposed “coordination” was.

    108-Spencer, I wondered that, too, about the day off. It’s kind of like Detective Weinstein of Portland Police being out sick the day – I do think that all people need to have their days to be sick or watch a game, but someone else needs to be available to respond in their absence – considering these are life and death issues. What about Brian Anderson’s boss, presumably the sheriff? Or even someone else superior to Rubrecht? Nobody dies if I’m not at my desk, but we still have people cover in others’ absences.

  110. Paul says:

    Sorry, not takin’ the bait PacMan.

    As a lifelong resident of the Northwest who is proud of the largely warm, friendly and humanitarian spirit of those who live here, I think your chosen name is an insult to the region.

  111. glenn says:

    (62) putz
    (90) putz
    (92) putz
    (97) putz
    (100) susan why don’t we just call him a putz?
    (107) putz

    Hey putz enough of your useless comments and insults. Give it up already. Why don’t you just pour yourself a nice tall glass of STFU and go back “Observing”.

  112. Maggie says:

    108-Spencer, here’s where the Oregonian did show Anderson in a more sympathetic light:

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1165652726218920.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

    I was a little surprised by the difference between the older article and the one on Sunday in terms of how each portrayed Anderson.

  113. glenn says:

    (102) yes…all it would have taken was a phone call. Maybe Sara R. thought whomever she would have to call would be busy watching a game or something and wouldn’t answer the phone!

  114. glenn says:

    (112) Different report perspectives…it is good that the reporters in the same paper can have different views…not something you would see out the NY Times…

  115. glenn says:

    (109) Maggie it borders on criminal negligence…

  116. Lisa says:

    Re: 106 Paul

    That’s a great idea Paul! I would think they
    would be very interested, because there was
    so much interest in the story down there.

    Re: 108 Spencer

    Thanks for clarifying the context of that quote.

    I still think when such a big case is going on – an
    emergency – a crisis search and rescue – all Law
    Enforcement should be available for communications. Even more so because it was his last week. It’s not like he was far from a break. It just sounds like a very selfish incompetent un-sherriff-like thing to do.

    One of the real questions I have, that again can’t be
    proven but I would like to hear explanations of, is why
    there were hotspots in the drainage Monday night, and
    when they went to them Tuesday they found a trail of clothes, but then they’re guessing he died Monday?

    How do you explain that?

  117. Paul says:

    116: Bears or Deer – either one would leave a heat signature that could easily be interpreted as a man, and there are plenty of both in the Rogue River Wilderness. It would not be unusual in the least for either animal to go sniff at the left items, thinking there might be food. Both are aclimatized to humans from all the rafters/kayakers on the Rogue River.

  118. Paul says:

    I just can’t see him surviving longer than 2 nights, the coroner speculated the same, and that is meant with no disrespect to him or his effort in any way.

  119. tara says:

    Who is the SHERIFF?

  120. RobZ says:

    Re #33+: I emailed Oregonian reporter Peter Sleeth to ask: “What exactly did the Kims do at the intersection where BLM 34-8-36 and NF 23 fork? … In your investigative reporting, did you learn anything that might shed light on just what they Kims did (and knew) at this critical fork?”

    He replied: “I cannot tell you the answer to that, as only Kati Kim knows, and she is not talking. My hunch is they simply took the right instead of the left at the Y in the road. I emphasize, however, I do not know.”

  121. tara says:

    EX-SHERIFF DETECTIVE CRASHES INTO HOME, BLAMES FRIEND

    http://www.newswithviews.com/Taft/john17.htm

    I know this was 2005 but come on.

  122. tara says:

    this just gets better and better.
    Southern Oregon Sheriff Tramples Civil Rights Again

    he stole a friggin chicken. I dont think the sheriffs department has benn busy or training.

  123. Paul says:

    How is Valdez involved in this story? I know Anderson is, but …

  124. tara says:

    hes the previous sheriff…. he had to be responsible for training in some manner

  125. tara says:

    testifies to the organization of the department

  126. D.H. says:

    Um… eh hem. Excuse me, Frances. But I’m from the Medford forum, and I am not included in “a pack of your followers as on the message board Joe linked to.” That was pretty rude. I have a mind of my own, and you should not lump over 1,000 people at Medford forum into one group. I believe that would be “over-generalization”. Thank you.

  127. Lisa says:

    Re: 117,118 Paul

    Yes, I hadn’t thought that the animals would want
    to sniff them but that makes sense as a possibility.
    Still, there were not hotspots on Tuesday.

    It would be really informative if we could get the
    perspective of some of the ground searchers,
    like the Oregon Mountain Rescuers. I would
    like to know what the strategy was.

    Thanks, I know you meant no disrespect. I still just
    think it was Tuesday. And although I’m not basing that
    on what the first responder said – the fact that it looked
    like it hadn’t been that long, could be significant.

    It’s just frustrating because there were so many missed
    opportunities to find them earlier.

  128. tara says:

    Okay- clarification Valdez- I dont know he previously worked in the sheriff department. The sheriff involved in both of those ridiculous news stories (link above) is
    Sheriff David H. Daniel. On the Josephine COunty Website David Daniel is listed as Sheriff. It is possible he resigned as it appears theres alot of controversy surrounding him. One website calls him a liability to the state of oregon for mishandleing the department.

    Sorry I got sidetracked on this…. I really wanted to know who was sheriff and man I got more than I bargained for.

  129. tara says:

    okay this is it. Ill stop… but IF he is still sheriff:

    “GRANTS PASS, Oregon — What do you do if you’re the sheriff of Josephine County and your budget is being cut due to an economic recession? If you’re David H. Daniel, you remodel your office; it’s good therapy for the blues. That’s right, you get new wallpaper and have a custom made desk and get new furniture. It cost this reporter $18.61 in cash to ferret out his information from a reluctant sheriff. It took a sheriff’s office employee one-hour to pull three invoices out of a file. One hour to find three invoices? The remodeling of Daniel’s office cost taxpayers $2,962. Daniel had so much fun spending this money he also had the Cave Junction office remodeled for $660. The total costs were $3,622. If Dave were a good steward of taxpayers’ money during this time of economic recession, he could have bought a nice oak desk at a county auction. There were reportedly several of these desks that went for $6 dollars each. Daniel gave his used furniture to a struggling deputy district attorney. Interestingly, the furniture was good enough for someone else but not good enough for Daniel. Daniel is often referred to as the million-dollar sheriff. “

  130. glenn says:

    Tara you should be a detective…you find anything and everything :)

    Giddy up!

  131. Lisa says:

    Re: 129

    No – that’s interesting Tara – investigational research
    can be very helpful. And that would make sense why there
    hasn’t been an official sheriff.

  132. Gayle says:

    2006 Jospehine County Election results… Anderson lost to Gil Gibertson, and David Daniel did not run.

    http://www.co.josephine.or.us/page.asp?navid=185

  133. Gayle says:

    BTW, I am not the ‘Gayle’ married to David Daniel that I read about in his history page at the Sheriff’s website. :)

  134. Lisa says:

    Re: 133-136

    Very interesting. Thanks, Gayle!

  135. tara says:

    ALright… my guess is that David Daniel resigned and Gil Gibertson’s term hasnt started yet (or Anderson wouldnt have been there) and Anderson must have been acting sheriff??

  136. PacNWer says:

    So, glenn (#111), did you learn a new swear word today? :)

    D.H. (#127) you mean you’re not my “follower?” I’m just crushed, I’ll tell ya! :)

    tara (#130), what possible difference does it make if some sheriff’s office got remodeled? Is that what you call using the resources of the Internet to aid in SAR?

  137. mapper says:

    packrash, no one suggested turning bear camp into a state highway, and I definitley didn’t beg the question, or hope for you to beg the question, answer it, and cry about it all at once.

    Asking for better signage and maps of the national forest and blm in that area, is in line, in that most of the federal areas I have been to, well, I made it out alive, and as you can tell, I am not that smart. So they must be doing something right with signage and maps in most federal areas.

    Tara,

  138. glenn says:

    (139) No actually PacNWer u said u were going to stay away for a week…u didn’t…guess we just can’t trust much of what u say.

    Since you brought up post (130) I think all of the expenditures during the last 5 years should be audited. Maybe some of the money could have been better spent on preparing the organization to do what it is supposed to do…who knows what they could find?

    Pretty much everyone involved in this thread wants to fix the obvious problems in JC so that no one else has to loose their life. You are the only one that I see here that wants to deflect the issue – you are connected to the problem somehow and instead of fixing it you want everyone to assume the role of an ostrich – just stick our heads in the ground.

    Well we are sticking all of our heads into the details and we are peeling back this onion and every day more and more sees the day of light. God willing someone with some real leadership will step up in JC and fix what is broken.

  139. mapper says:

    thanks for the links, sorry hit submit too fast. see, I’m such an IDIOT!

  140. glenn says:

    (140) – make bear camp into a toll road. that way there is a record of everyone that goes in…on the opposite side you can reconcile their ticked and all the money can go to SAR.

    It would even create a couple more jobs!

  141. mapper says:

    now were putting our heads together glenn! toll road, I like it. Maybe an elevated oasis with a mcdonalds and starbucks right in the middle too.

  142. tara says:

    Maybe a gas station with maps….

  143. mapper says:

    Frances I am not sure about the days, but I know she said they burned one, and then they burned all three at once to try to make a lot of smoke.

  144. Gayle says:

    An interesting article about Undersheriff Anderson… May give some insight to his attitude.

    http://http://www.usobserver.com/archive/oct-06/images/usobserver-issue14.pdf

  145. mapper says:

    I hope Kati writes her thoughts specifically to you P-fed and I hope she is not bound like we are to shreds of respect, to keep ourselves somewhat inline because we are participating in someones blog, not unlike uninvited guests. I’ve got a pretty good idea glenn knows a few more swear words…

    I hope Kati tells you exactly what she was and is thinking, if she is ever to read the things you have written and assumed about her and her family.

    She owes you no explanation, of anything, ever. period. Who is she accountable to here? NO ONE. Time to accept it and move on with your life.

  146. Gayle says:

    I had not read this article until tonight… Covers the Kim story with tidbits of info I had not read elsewhere.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003470308_ordeal10.html

  147. tara says:

    Gayle.
    thanks. wow. geez.they had no idea how to handle this situation.

  148. tara says:

    Gayle (150)
    that paints a different picture entirely.

  149. Lisa says:

    Re: 148

    Wow! Thanks Gayle! Talk about dysfunction and incompetence!
    I didn’t have a good feeling about Brian Anderson when
    I saw him at the press conferences. It just seemed to me
    that he had some real integrity issues. And now here is
    proof…

  150. tara says:

    hey- was it a sar team that first spotted james or a local?

  151. glenn says:

    (146) maybe a gas station with everyone saying…Don’t take this road, don’t take this road!!! Were all gonna die!!!

  152. glenn says:

    (150-152) Gayle and Tara you guys should start a detective agency.

    And Tara don’t worry even though Gayles “claims” she isn’t Daniel’s wife…she will be an asset in the investigation :)

  153. glenn says:

    (154) Chopper jock hired by Mr Kim spotted James Kim’s body.

  154. Gayle says:

    LOL, Glenn (#157). Tara, whaddya think, do you want to try a little Cagney & Lacey? Just kidding. :)

  155. glenn says:

    (155) Oh yeah…scratch that one…everyone should already know that about these roads that look nice and comfy on a map. Just a bunch idiots with cruise control on and looking for the next starbucks!

  156. mapper says:

    your right glenn, people need to be alert and slowing down as much as possible up there, I propose 5 starbuck’s one for every 10 miles, as soon as they convert it to a toll road.

  157. Mickey M says:

    Parting Comments Riding into the Western Sunset…

    All you pukes sound like a bunch of airhead Californians except for my buddies PacNWer and Observer.

    God bless America! This is the land where you stand on yer own two feet and take responsibility for your actions and if yer do somethin’ stupid ya don’t blame the guys trying to help. It pains me to think America’s losing its edge and all the Rugged Individualists who built the country for a bunch of low-life gadgeteers who sit on their asses typing and typing and typing. So you think you’re gonna change the world ? Good luck.

    And don’t you tenderfeet go drivin’ on no mountain road in the winter when you don’t know your ass from a hole in the ground !!!

  158. mapper says:

    we need detectives on our fancy internet team!!!!

  159. Frances says:

    Wondering question – I won’t have time to go back and re-read all post until later in the week, so maybe some of you can help me remember as there’s just so much infomation.

    When did the first helicopters get up in the air? Did I read somewhere that it was Friday that Katie said they burned their last tire? Isn’t smoke from a tire fire very visible? I remember as a kid, we used to burn tires for heat & light when we were sleigh riding (one night my brother got a sleigh runner right through his thigh – opps, we shouldn’t have been sleigh riding, especially at night -irresponsible) & the smoke which came from those tire fires was massive.

  160. Gayle says:

    Gold Beach, OR, citizens have tried to correct problems on Bear Camp Rd…

    http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907

  161. mapper says:

    Frances,

    I think its the kind of thing that might make a person decide to set out on foot.

    I havn’t read the article in awhile, but from what I recall, they had heard a helicopter in the distance at that point, but that is it.

  162. PacNWer says:

    Francine (#145), was your brother declared a hero on national TV, or did your parents at some point say, You goofball, what the hell were you doing THAT for?

    mapper (#149), given that Kati was one of two adults who, by her gross negligence and irrsponsibility caused a widespread upheaval, I think she owes everyone an explanation. But, in the manner of the selfish rich of California through the years, I’m not going to hold my breath waiting.

    Mickey M (#161), I couldn’t have said it better myself. And to the Compassionate Peanut Gallery, I am not Mickey M. I realize you’d like to see conspiracies everywhere, but you really need to put the joint down and go outside for a breath of fresh air every now and then.

  163. Lisa says:

    Re: 150

    Wow! Even that Seattle Times article indirectly shows
    how much incomptence there was.

    Here is how Anderson characterized a call on Sunday Dec. 3:

    “Brian Anderson’s home phone rang before 9 a.m. on Sunday, Dec. 3. It was Sara Rubrecht, county emergency-services manager. “Hey, boss,” Anderson remembers her saying. It looks as if they’ve narrowed the area where that missing family might be.”

    Boy that really sounds like two people who are urgently
    involved in search and rescue doesn’t it! He doesn’t quote
    her directly, but still. And she was referring to the
    cell phone information.

    Here is something else he said on Sun. Dec. 3rd:

    “Up to then, no one had been clearly running the operation. “There was some frustration on the search originally,” Anderson said later, “because there was no clear-cut agency in charge.”

    Anderson set up a command post at the Josephine County search-and-rescue headquarters and invited everyone to meet there to pull information together. They ramped up for a full search Monday morning, Dec. 4.”

    It just speaks for itself…

  164. glenn says:

    (161) your absolutely right…don’t blame the people trying to help…just glad you realize your comments are so amazingly stupid and that you want to accept responsibility and ride off into the sunset.

    I find it very interesting that you have been able to create three such distinct personalities you should seek help from someone – hey that can be your next step in accepting responsibility for your issues.

  165. mapper says:

    If anyone out there knows Sharon Prow let her know she is my hero! oh no…I said hero….

  166. mapper says:

    Hey Glenn, the old Sheriff’s out of work, he has a ton of time on his hands for creating personalities and trying to control public opinion.

  167. PacNWer says:

    Hey glenn, do you have kids? How would you feel if their lovely Uncle Jim Kim and Aunt Kati Kim took them on some backroad during a snowstorm, without the right clothes, without gas and after ignoring a warning on the map and three on signs along the way?

    A grizzly bear sow treats her cubs better than Kati Kim treated her babies. Oops, but grizzly bears are stupid. I keep forgetting about the brilliant.

  168. glenn says:

    (172) follow the river is old school…the contemporary position is to stay put. That used to be what they preach up until about 12-15 years ago. I don’t anyone can blame James for heading out…I think most of us experienced or not would have done that at that point.

  169. PacNWer says:

    glenn (#172) how about re-writing that: “The ordeal she and her husband put their defenseless children through …”

  170. PacNWer says:

    I think I just figured it out: No one commenting here has kids, or knows anyone who does. You’re all single and in love with nothing but your computers. Kids? Let ‘em fend for themselves! Responsibility? That’s for the pre-Internet generation.

  171. Lisa says:

    Ignore it or else it feeds on antagonism…

  172. mapper says:

    yeah, packie your the face of humanity

  173. glenn says:

    (174) four kids, three girls and a boy. I am sure all four of them would be pretty sad that Uncle Jim has died but they would all view him as a hero since he died trying to save their lives.

    As for me, stuff happens everyday, everywhere and to anybody. No one is immune from this.

    I also know if they had an Uncle Paccy they would call him Uncle Putz.

  174. mapper says:

    Lisa, I know. But its not going away even when we ignore it. I’ts monday, long day, and if kati ever does read this, I hope she can atleast get a little satisifaction….

  175. Mickey M says:

    Loving Luddites !!!

    Hey all you internet junkies … Paleolithic man knew how to start a fire and live in the Ice Ages !

    Now all you youngin’s know how to do is sit on yer fat asses and program I-Pods!

    You can’t even start a fire to save your ass!

  176. glenn says:

    (177) PacNWer your views and attitude most certainly put your children (if you have any) in more danger than the Kim’s ever have.

    You really have some serious issues.

  177. tara says:

    but we can spell.

  178. Gayle says:

    Article… letter to the editor…Oregon’s Criminal Negligence: The Kim Family Tragedy …

    http://www.ocnsignal.com/index.html#anews

    (scroll down the last item on page)

  179. mapper says:

    I’m sorry, I am going back into ignore mode. But I dont know that it will do a thing.

  180. tara says:

    brilliant frances. What’s a lighter? hang on, I’ll google it.

  181. mapper says:

    But Glenn…(186) I whole-heartedly agree.

  182. glenn says:

    (185) u don’t have a clue, I could out-hike you, out-hunt you, out-raft you, out-climb you and certainly out-camp you. I have kicked ass at everything I have ever done – the internet is just another frontier to conquer.

    As for starting fires do you know what a plow is?, a piston?, how about a cord? or maybe even a saw?

    And I am not some youngin and my ass isn’t fat and after my third iPod (too bad u didn’t get that right) burnt out I didn’t get another.

    Just as a thought I would leave you with…since you can’t learn anything from us techies…did you know you could create fire from a soda can and chocolate bar?

  183. glenn says:

    (191) now that one was funny!

  184. Lisa says:

    Please just go away – what are you some kind of
    masochist who likes to make people hate you?

    You’ve said the same things over, and over, and over,
    and over, and over again.

    It’s boring and it’s old. And we don’t agree with
    you – so go on your merry old boring same old same old
    insulting way.

    You like to pick on nice people. Wow – that says a lot
    for you and your life.

    Look you don’t really get at us – we may respond –
    but you really don’t affect us otherwise…

    So you’re wasting yourself…

  185. glenn says:

    (196) but Lisa I am having fun…oh oh glenn has to go to timeout :)

    You know Pac and Mickey and Obsolete remind me of that kids song…one of these kids is doing his own thing…

    Hey did you guys toture the neighborhood pets when you were younger?

  186. tara says:

    197
    We should make an internet site that lists these items as necessary survival gear.

  187. glenn says:

    (197) well really you can as long as you have sunlight. Problem with the soda can is the bottom has a brushed finish – will not reflect well. Use the chocolate to polish the bottom of the can and yes it will make it unbelievably smooth and reflective. Since the bottom of the can is concave it will focus the reflection to a point from the center of the bottom of the can (ie. you must hold the can to capture the sun light into the polished bottom of the can)…hold pocket lint or good tinder in the focus point and it will light.

    I don’t think the chocolate would taste to good afterward.

  188. tara says:

    quote from PacNWer at his other stompin grounds:
    “I thought you were supposed to put the baby in the dryer after microwaving it!”

    dont talk to me about mistreating babies. Thats NOT FUNNY.

  189. Gayle says:

    Re: #183) I also know if they had an Uncle Paccy they would call him Uncle Putz.

    Sorry but, Glenn, you crack me up. LOL

  190. Frances says:

    #127 – D.H. You’re right, am so sorry. After about four days with nearly no sleep – not because of this but because of my home responsibilites & during free time had no engery to do anything but sit at computer, and yes, being very emotional about this, I’ve made several mistakes I shouldn’t have made & found it proper to apologize on several occassions. Now, after finally getting a good night’s sleep, the article about the mess up
    seemes to relieve some of my anger, at least the info is out there and someone is paying attention – I hope I have a better head on me now.

    Gayle & Tara & Suan,Robz, Paul, good job!

    Spencer, the idea of a gate, but a space on the size just large enough for snow mobiles,etc. but not large enough for a car/truck – have I got that right? That’s sounds like the best idea to me as even a gate that was supposed to shut automatically – well, let’s face it, there are going to be those who prop it to stay open or it could even get hung up in snow, etc.

    Glen, yes it does border on criminal negligence especially after reading the link that Gayle provided about the standards for the local SAR’s. It would be interesting to see if in the info they gave about being a SAR unit gave info about what resources are available other than what their immediate SAR unit has.

    Regarding time off for sherriff’s cops, etc. Yes, sure they do. But, ESPECIALLY in a small community, during an emergency, it’s still their responsibility.

    Now to the lighter side:

    Glenn, they’re going to need the income as people are going to be afraid to visit that area as (1)tourist aren’t welcome (2) If you run into trouble, if we’re watching a ball game or don’t feel too well, we can’t help you

    Naw, forget gating the road, just gate the community as they want outsiders to stay out!

    Hey, ya’ll come to WV – we may be barefooted, toothless hillbillies, but we’ve got snow sking, snow boarding,

    http://www.skiingwv.com/

    white water rafting, http://www.wvaraft.com/

    world known top class hotel,

    http://www.greenbrier.com/site/

    all the mountains you wanna hike,
    bungie jumping off bridges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_Gorge_Bridge

    And to beat it all, we welcome & appreciate our tourist.

    And lastly but by no means any where near leastly – well yea, maybe so, Pacman, putz.

  191. glenn says:

    Do you guys know the compass heading trick with your watch?

    This version is for Oregon or anywhere north.

    Put a stick in the ground to make a shadow

    Put your watch on the ground (analog face none of that techie stuff here) so that the hour hand points toward and inline with the shadow line

    Find the mid-point between your hour hand and 12 o’clock and visualize a line from that point through the center of the watch – that line will be a North-South line you can determine your heading from that. If you are a believer of DST then use 1 o’clock instead of 12.

  192. Lisa says:

    Re: 198 Glenn

    You can do what you like of course, but that was my
    final comment on the matter and now I am going into
    ignore mode.

  193. glenn says:

    (203) hee hee…well these guys are a joke and if we don’t make light of it you can’t get through it. I am writing to webster to have their names put into the dictionary as part of the definition of absurd.

  194. tara says:

    a fire starting trick: the last time I was climbing a couple 14ers we camped below tree line and my friends were trying to find a bunch of tiny sticks to get the fire to light… I showed them that it lights EASILY if you use a birds nest. And they are easier to find than you think.

  195. glenn says:

    (206) Actually Frances I think every kid should take survival courses. For me it actually started way back in Boy Scouts and the final test for wilderness survival merit badge – blindfolded..led arm to shoulder through deep woods and left for two days. We had flint, two canteens each, and a knife. We simulated a plane crash and had to survive for two days completely on our own. That really started my passion for the outdoors and I have been at it ever since.

    Amazing to be able to enjoy what we have in the country but it really demands respect.

  196. Gayle says:

    I have been quiet to this point but …
    Talk about being an internet techy!! Pacy has been busy, busy, busy… posting 108 times to the other forum on the missing family with a total of 207 Total Cumulative Posts on a huge amount of topics.
    ( 18.2 posts per day / 1.14% of total forum posts ).

    http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showuser=1645

    Included in his posts is this from Mr Responsibilty….

    (quote) Reminds me of this fancy radar detector I put in my car. Oh, it worked just fine. BEEEEEEEEEEEEP! A lot of good that did when the Oregon State Police hit me with an instant-on radar. At 92 mph in a 65 zone on I-5. Cost me $380 and that’s not including what the insurance company did to my rates when they found out about the ticket. I wasn’t mad. I figured the state needed the money. (unquote)

    http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=600

    Were there children in the car at the time?

  197. glenn says:

    hey where did everybody go? is there anybody out there in the dark?

  198. Mickey M says:

    Hey 209

    I don’t give a rat’s ass what you said before, but this is the first time you started to make some sense !!!

    But don’t expect the rest of us to idiot-proof every country road and every nook and cranny of what is left of nature for all you arrogant tech pukes.

    And like I said before, don’t anyone go on no mountain road unprepared in the winter !!!

  199. Frances says:

    Mapper,
    we would just burn one at a time and as I said, it made a heck a lot of pure black smoke that traveled nearly straight up. I know wind can affect the direction of smoke, but burning three at once, man that sure had to be one heck of a lot of smoke for no one to see, especially if copters were in the air anywhere near the time before the some could have dissipate.

  200. Frances says:

    Mickey M. aka Pacman?

    We need our net dectectives on this – Susan, Tara, Gayle, Paul, mapper, get to work guys!

  201. tara says:

    pacnwer
    using a hick accent doesnt convince us you are micky mouse.

  202. Frances says:

    Just kidding of course, Mickey M. Putz # 2

  203. glenn says:

    (212) Tara … i beg to differ…they most certainly are mickey mouse!

  204. Frances says:

    Yea, mapper, it’s certainly the type of thing which would make me finally decide to set out on foot, especially given the length of time they were up there.
    Also, I’ve always been told – if you get lost in the woods find a creek of some substance or river & follow it, you will eventually find someone living next to it.
    Could this be what James was doing?

    Regarding hearing from Katie – there’s sure a lot of stuff I hope she doesn’t see, but unfortunately she will. Although I would like to hear from her, I don’t consider it a requirement. The ordeal the woman went through up there, loosing her husband, all the media attention she didn’t seek, doesn’t want and isnt’ used to and right here at Christmas. No I don’t expect to hear from her and hold nothing against her if she never decides to give anyone any reasons, explanation, etc.

  205. Frances says:

    Pacman, as my name is Frances and I post as such, all my life those who have thought they were being so ‘cutey’ to call me Francine have all been, guess what…

    Putz

  206. Susan says:

    121-123 Well, having taken part in a rooster rescue myself, that chicken story is disgusting. I can’t believe they actually killed the chicken.
    Frankly, I don’t think biker gangs do poker runs, that’s for us yuppy bikers, poker runs are almost always charity runs. I’ll find out.

  207. glenn says:

    (218) us boaters do though!

  208. Frances says:

    Hey Puz, I’m a WV hillbilly, I have two dozen. None of my freinds have any as I had I had them all

  209. Frances says:

    Lisa, yea, I know and it’s starting to get a bit boring, but just couldn’t help a bit of poking at the mule.

  210. Frances says:

    Sure I can start a fire, I take a lighter and a little bit of printer paper…

  211. Frances says:

    or over-clock my computer…

  212. Susan says:

    213-GLENN, please don’t compare them to good old Mickey Mouse. They don’t hold a candle to him.

  213. Susan says:

    222-yes Frances I knew exactly what you meant

  214. tara says:

    Im here and lol. Frances I dont think you have a mean bone in your body.

  215. Frances says:

    Glen,
    Hey, man this is all, sincerely complete seriousness…
    Can you really? How? I’d like to teach my 19 year this as the things she always has
    Cell phone
    iPod
    Soda
    Chocolate

  216. Susan says:

    229, second that.

  217. mapper says:

    sorry glenn, I wasn’t ignoring THAT much, I got a call on what the oldtimers call the telephone. Man those things are annoying! I hate talking to people in real life!

  218. Frances says:

    Wow, Gayle, you know how to really find ‘em! Lovely place. I have to keep reminding myself of people like Spencer, they guy at Black Bar Lodge, the guy with the ‘copter & all the Burger Kings. Heck, they sound more like WV people.

  219. tara says:

    Im out- my cold medicine got the best of me.

  220. Paul says:

    Just my opinion, but I truly think Oblivious, Mickey Mouse and Sou’Wester are distinct and different people.

    But I digress – this is escalating into a pissing contest of epic proportions. You want to really infuriate them? IGNORE THEM ! Engaging with them just begets more escalation, more name calling, more taunts and insults and mindless blather. Your giving them what they want, a reaction.

    p.s. Sou’Wester – reread my post 476 “as a parent I think having an infant and a 4 year old in the back seat obliges one to a higher standard of caution and care than one would exercise otherwise.” I have 2 young children for the record.

  221. Frances says:

    Glen, thanks, printed this out to show my daughter.

  222. glenn says:

    Hey PacNWer…do you still have your 93 Turbo Diesel Golf?

    Guess we should call you Brian…how long do you think before I find out your last name?

    Can I join the detective agency too?

  223. Gayle says:

    Cagney, Lacey & Glenn :)

  224. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    This is the reply from ODOT (Oregon Dept. of Transportation) giving me an explaination about the web cam map for Oregon. I was asking about a road over near Bend Oregon that had a x on the road in red. It said winter closer. I asked them why this can’t be put on the Bear Camp Road.

    Mr. Hollenbeck,

    Thanks for your email message. We are looking at ways to clarify the situation for travelers in regard to Bear Camp Road.

    It is not an ODOT highway (It belongs to BLM) so we can’t indicate whether it is open or not because ODOT doesn’t make that call – and TripCheck reports only on state highways.

    But we are taking a look at all of the light green colored roads on the Web site (these are non-ODOT roads use simply for reference) and determine their value and condition.

    Our approach is likely to be taking the line green road representing Bear Camp Road off of TripCheck all together. This should eliminate any confusion as to whether this road is a good option – regardless of the season.

    Thanks again for your email and input.

    Regards,

    Glen Hammer
    System Manager
    TripCheck.com

  225. mapper says:

    Paul we tried to ignore them. And it seemed to me when we gave an inch, let him talk, treated him with respect, he just talked louder and more often, with italics and bold.

    But it is getting late so I am done with them. I just read the chicken article…I don’t know what to say about that at all.

    Except, some people should be less concerned about how someone from illinois feels about how to spend US tax dollars on federal land, and more about how their local taxes are spent. I have a right to have my say about idiot-proofing those roads.

  226. mapper says:

    Bob, you have to read an article/letter posted above by a resident, her name is Sharon Prow I believe, maybe someone will post the link again, as I am not sure anymore which it is.

  227. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Thanks Mapper, I would like to read it.

  228. mapper says:

    yes, thanks a lot for e mailing IDOT Bob, that response is very telling.

  229. mapper says:

    sorry…hahaha IDOT = illinois DOT…

  230. glenn says:

    (243)…yeah Frances – WV…all one big family right?

    heh heh…sorry I couldn’t resist; you set it up so beautifully.

  231. Susan says:

    236- not Brian Anderson?

  232. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Frances, One of my best friends in the Marines was from WV the big Hill Billy. :) just kidding also he was awsome.
    Mapper great article. Frances, which article you talking about. I have been out of the loop for awhile.

  233. mapper says:

    Frances,
    well, they (or he) certainly are outnumbered. Too bad most of us have a little respect and dont say EVERYthing we think. Truly this was not what I would call a contest as I hardly got started, and will not say everything I think.

  234. Frances says:

    Glen, I agree and even put my daughter in Girl Scouts. Unfortunately, the local was a joke. But she did get to go camping and used her first out-house. It was soooo funny to hear her reaction to it.

  235. Frances says:

    Opps out-house = civilization

  236. Frances says:

    Well, now Putz#2 – don’t you’se be hiking your tail into the cities & expect our tax payer dollar’s to save you when you get a flat tire in the middle of the ‘hood.

  237. Frances says:

    We only take care of ‘homies

  238. glenn says:

    (248) I don’t know the last name yet.

    (249) mapper u said “he was” – sorry to hear you lost one of your best friends.

    (252) BTW…Frances is a name both M and F used in my family going back for generations.

  239. Frances says:

    Had to go for a bit… yea, Glen, if I’ve learned nothing else in the life (according to some I haven’t, gosh who could I be referring to?!) you gotta keep a sense of humor.

  240. Susan says:

    91-95 Bob H, I emailed the BLM with your idea about the gates on either side of Bear Camp Road, that you could drive around. Basically saying local traffic only. But then Spencer said those are one lane roads, so how would you drive around?

  241. Frances says:

    Yea, Susan, you biker yuppies only do runs for things like the MDA, you’re wimps and worthless.
    Thank you for the bikers who make a run for the MDA. Bless you.

  242. glenn says:

    (255) pull a Joey Chitwood move and get the car on two wheels and slide on by while grabbing your starbucks at the tollbooth. Pretty simple actually .

    They ought to have a gate that you have to manually open and it closes automatically (and yet u can do that without power)

  243. glenn says:

    (256) I am deeply wounded now – I understand you should talk to the males in the family with the name Francis…

  244. Frances says:

    Susan, after I read that it didn’t read like I mean – you know I was thanking bikers like your, right?

  245. mapper says:

    (249) that was Bob. I was never a marine but I did work for the air force (in…california) but with a wonderful person from west virgina as well.

  246. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Susan, It’s called a half gate. With a big sign on it with all the particulars. At the start of Bear Camp Road it’s is very wide, plenty of room for a half gate.

  247. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    I was told there are people working on this idea as we speak.

  248. Frances says:

    Hey, Mickey a.k.a. pacman must have a sense of humor – I clicked his link and it goes to the disnes site. Ok, that’s a good one.

  249. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Francis, great article in Oregonlive!

  250. Frances says:

    I meant Disney. Sorry, Tara, where ever you are I often mis my typos & mis-spellings.

  251. Frances says:

    I mean miss, geesh, me.

  252. Frances says:

    Good. Thought I’d messed up again. whew.

  253. glenn says:

    (261) I hope something gets done and soon!

  254. Paul says:

    RE:243 Frances – I can’t speak to tourists and OR (I am a lifelong resident), but there is a definite OR / Calif. issue that goes back decades. Some long-time residents seems to feel that “those Californians” have ruined their state and our now intent on ruining ours. I don’t know if this is more pronounced in Southern Oregon, but given the large influx of CA residents into Medford, Ashland and Grants Pass, it is certainly possible. People want someone to blame, so they blame more traffic congestion; housing prices that have shot up so dramatically that the middle class have been priced out of many portions of the state that used to be very affordable; and all manner of other perceived wrongs on out-of-staters and, specifically, Californians.

    The truth is so much more complex than that, and it is simplistic and narrow minded in my opinion to think that way, but plenty of people do.

    Pretty sure we’ve got some other Oregonians on this post, they may add, further explain, or disagree as they see fit.

  255. Frances says:

    Thanks, Tara – but sure I do – I hate unjustness, self-righteousness, and unfairness or be unkind to my kids.

  256. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    It’s really not a gate, it will be concreated in the ground on both sides, it will be big. It goes half way accros the road, but still able to drive around it. It will be down at the beginning of the road which is down by the river on the Galice Access Road. This is the main highway down along the river.

  257. Paul says:

    Former Governor Tom McCall was infamous for his “visit but don’t stay” comment, and he was governor a long, long time ago (1967-75). He was also the source of much of the land-use planning that has kept Oregon from suffering the same urban sprawl that Seattle, Los Angeles and other large cities suffer from. The first bottle bill in the nation also came into being on his watch.

  258. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Like I said this half gate should be on both sides of the mountain, one on the Galice Access Road and one down at Agness. (Coast side)

  259. Frances says:

    Later, Tara, I’m going to be pretty soon too, tomorrow’s gonna be a long day, but this has been such a pressure relief as well as always educational.

    IF Katie ever reads this or anyone ever tells her about it, I hope she makes if far enough or they include the laughs.

  260. mapper says:

    I see from joe’s homepage he went to school in Madison.

    susan, maggie, he could be kicking us out of here anyday. I’ll be on my best behavior.

    Good night.

  261. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    So!

  262. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    268 So!

  263. glenn says:

    I have found quite a bit about PacNWer…as for location he is near Eugene. He buys stuff on eBay…and his political views are something else.

  264. Paul says:

    I thought he said at some point he lived up in Seattle, but I must be mistaken. I can’t speak to his politics, but his anger level seriously creeps me out (ditto Oblivious and Mickey Mouse). I’m just glad he’s not my neighbor, (but I have good friends in Eugene…maybe they should be worried).

  265. Paul says:

    Frances, you may not know this being so far away, but the football team for the Univ of Or in Eugene are The Ducks…inadvertent humor on your part…or maybe not.

  266. glenn says:

    (278) I don’t think so…private plane that is. I think PacNWer might be from TN originally. I could be totally wrong but I will piece it together.

    One thing that turned up tonight I won’t report but if you want to know then drop me an email…it will make u laugh or just sigh. Not sure which.

  267. glenn says:

    (279) Joe plays football too?

  268. Paul says:

    277 – Some people thing that way, but they are a minority…some of them are also angry…hmmmmmmmm.

  269. Frances says:

    Good job, Bob. Please don’t be offended by my poking fun at Oregon. Goodness knows, WV sure gets made fun of & I could care less. I just felt everyone needed a bit of comic relief.
    But in all seriousness, there does seem to be some reality behide some sour attitudes about tourist in Oregon hense the article earlier in the site about this. Can you please give me some, honest serious insight on this?

  270. Frances says:

    mapper, I agree, reason or ignoring him only made him worse. The only thing which seems to have an effect is poking at the mule(s).

  271. Frances says:

    Yea, my daughter and I keep looking for a T-shirt someone came up with which says WV – it’s all realtive, but because PC (politically correct) got offended, they took them off the market.

  272. Frances says:

    Was it Tara who posted it on Sunday right after the main article.

    Hey Glenn, I’m a big girl, if you miss a good shot, shame on you!

  273. Frances says:

    Personnaly, no offense to your family, but I HATE the name Frances, and yes, it is my real name.

  274. glenn says:

    Interesting post from the Listening Post blog:
    Sunday, 10 December 2006 – 3:44 PM

    Name: shandi

    I was lost on that very same road back in August. My mother lives in Cave Junction just outside of Grants Pass. We decided to take a road trip to Gold Coast. I looked at a tourist map (that I obtained for free). It showed the Bear Camp route trough Agness as a “scenic” route.

    We drove around those BLM logging roads for almost 5 hours before finally getting out. Thankfully, I had a full tank of gas… and of course it wasn’t snowing.

    Why did I get lost? I grew up in the Siskyous and know how easy it is to get off track. Those particular roads are the most confussing I have ever come across. It looks like they were all paved at around the same time. You can’t tell which roads are significant and which ones are logging roads. Some of the logging roads are even wider and have the appearance of being more well traveled. And…. signs… There were some, but not stratigically placed at crossroads. There was a BLM map carved on wood placed at the top of the mountain. It said, “you are here” in one corner. Problem was, it didn’t resemble the tourist map at all. None of these roads were blocked off. I didn’t see any gates, closed or not. Some of the wooden signs were in desperate need of repair and I couldn’t make out some of the town names on them. They also directed you to the same town by going in separate directions.

    Someone needs to re-map and re-sign these roads, or this tragedy will happen again. I was completely lost… in the SUMMER.

    It insults me when I hear people say that James Kim was ignorant and made mistakes that risked the lives of his family. I’ve been there. It is a very easy mistake to make. One that any of us could have made.

    -=-=- end of post.

  275. Paul says:

    288 – It IS a very scenic drive…horrible signage to be sure; easy to get lost – absolutely, but real pretty while you’re getting lost.

  276. Frances says:

    Glenn, well maybe it’s just the way they say it here in WV…shivers.
    Bob, on the half gate, what about it getting blocked open by snow, etc or people proping it always in the open position? I’m not sniping, I seriously want to know. I really know very little about gates and didn’t know you could have a manually/open, auto/close gate with electricity.

  277. Frances says:

    I meant without electricity

  278. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    They are ALL logging roads……….

  279. Frances says:

    Does it have a particular name which describes it? I’d like to see what it looks like, out of curiousity.

  280. Frances says:

    Wow, Glen, and pacman said that the Kims used live in Eugene… certainly has all the markings of a personnal vendetta,…
    If it walks like a duck, talks, like a duck..

  281. Frances says:

    Bob, I can understand a wilderness area not wanting to become urban, but to be so harsh and unappreciative of tourist and visitors? Are they really this unfriendly to such?

  282. Frances says:

    Well, Glenn, at least I know he lives accross country, but you did make mention of him owning a private plane..

  283. Frances says:

    I know NOTHING about football and beleive me it was completely inadvertent.

  284. Frances says:

    I meant completely unaware and unintentional. Sorry for keep posting, but mind goind in a bunch of different directins as trying to catch up on some stuff on the computer.

  285. Frances says:

    Glen, don’t know where to send e-mail to you.

    Anyway, this does seem to be a case of sometimes it takes a national tragedy to correct a local problem which affects more than locals in which the locals won’t/can’t take care of.

  286. RobZ says:

    Continuing my thinking in #33+, I want to reconstruct what the Kims did on the night of Sat/Sun Nov. 25/26. I plan to do this in two parts: 1) Roseburg to Galice and 2) Galice to where they stopped their car for the night. Following is the first part, based on ODOT, Google and Yahoo maps. I’ll use topo maps to create the second part, as I am interested in just how the road climbs and falls after leaving the Rogue River at Galice. Of course, local knowledge that I lack – I’m from Eugene – will help a lot with the second part.

    — Begin Part 1: Roseburg to Galice —
    According to Yahoo Maps, it is 139 mile or about 3 hours and 34 minutes from the Denny’s in Roseburg to Gold Beach via Highway 42. Google Maps puts the distance at 133 miles or about 2 hours and 49 minutes via Highway 42. (Google recommends saving a few miles by bypassing Coquille.) Accepting the more conservative Yahoo figure, if the Kims left the Denny’s on Saturday, November 25, at 9 p.m. and had taken Hwy. 42, they could have been in Gold Beach by roughly 12:30 a.m. early Sunday morning.

    As it was, the Kims presumably started on the correct route:

    1. Head west on West Harvard Ave. toward Exit #124 – go 0.3 mi, 1 min

    2. Turn left to merge onto Interstate-5 south – go 4.4 mi, 5 mins

    3. Take Exit #119 onto Hwy. 42 toward Winston/Coos Bay …

    But just 6 minutes from Denny’s, they missed the Hwy. 42 exit to the coast.

    Having missed the exit, their best option would have been to continue another 7 miles south to exit #112 and then follow Dillard Hwy./Hwy. 99 back to Hwy. 42 and the coast. They could have also turned around at any of several exits for Myrtle Creek (#108, #103), Riddle (#101) or Canyonville (#99).

    But the official state map produced by ODOT (I have the June 2003 edition) shows a paved road all the way from Grants Pass to Gold Beach via Merlin, Galice and Agness. It is true the map has a small red box with fine red print saying, “This route closed in winter,” but the route otherwise looks like a fine secondary route on the official state map. It is shown on the map as a bold solid black line. In any case, if the Kims thought the road from Galice to Agness was a usable, then at some point south of Roseburg it would have made more sense to continue south rather than turn around.

    One can take several Interstate-5 exits to reach Galice: Wolf Creek (#76) or Sunny Valley (#71) provide access from the north; Hugo (#66) or Merlin (#61) provide access from the east. We’ll probably never know which exit they took, and it probably doesn’t matter. But it is most likely that they took exit #66, resulting in the following trip from Denny’s:

    1. Head west on West Harvard Ave. toward Exit #124 – go 0.3 mi, 1 min

    2. Turn left to merge onto Interstate-5 south – go 57.6 mi, 54 min

    3. Take Exit #66 toward Hugo – go 0.3 mi

    4. Turn right on Monument Dr. – go 2.2 mi, 4 mins

    5. Turn right on Pleasant Valley Rd. – go 2.7 mi, 5 mins

    6. Continue on Galice Rd – go 11.4 mi, 18 mins

    According to Google Maps, it is 74.5 miles or about 82 minutes from Roseburg to Galice. Thus the Kims likely arrived at the intersection of Galice Rd. and BLM 34-8-36 on the bank of the Rogue River around 10:30 p.m. or perhaps a little before.

    According to online sources, there are gas stations at the following exits south of Hwy. 42: Myrtle Creek (#108, #103), Canyonville (#99, #98), Azalea (#88), Barton Rd. (#86), Glendale (#80), Wolf Creek (#76), Sunny Valey (#71), and Merlin (#61). Of course, if one wanted to determine whether and where the Kims purchased gas, credit card records would probably reveal the answer.
    — End Part 1: Roseburg to Galice —

  287. Frances says:

    Have got to call it a night.

  288. D.H. says:

    It’s starting to look like a Chat Room around here. Not much content any more, guess the real discussion is done. Will look elsewhere for the serious discussion.

  289. glenn says:

    (212) WOW…92MPH. PacNWer what if you hit a car with a family in it? You are completely irresponsible and have complete disregard for those around you.

    #1 Danger in Oregon for tourists – BLM roads
    #2 PacNWer driving recklessly

    How dare you criticize James Kim when you have an irresponsible attitude about driving – you make a car a weapon! Wake up and slow down!

    If you want to go fast then invest your money in racing and do it on a track!

  290. Paul says:

    I said it earlier, if you read through all his posts, there is plenty on that other site to make you question if Sou’Wester is playing with a full deck.

    D.H. – if you have a meaningful contribution to make or question to ask, by all means do.

  291. glenn says:

    (297) Thanks Paul – another good find.

  292. Susan says:

    OR-CA, WI-IL, Kiwi-OZ, CAN-US, I think that’s everywhere, and I think the rivalry is pretty one sided. I can tell you most people in IL have no clue what that WI word is they use for us. The only reason I know is my husband is from Milwaukee originally. But I also think the vast majority of people in WI judge us one on one. I never feel uncomfortable WI. And let’s face it, there’s a lot to criticize about a state or country that develops too fast, they make a lot of mistakes. The slower developing country or state should appreciate their neighbor. After all they get to watch the mistakes and learn from them and even avoid some of the same pitfalls. That’s a pretty good deal, learning from a mistake, without having to pay the price of actually making the mistake yourself.

    But there are always some exceptions. Some weak people can’t take responsibility for their own situation, so they stereotype and blame others. You can always spot a weak dog, it’s the one snarling and barking and biting. A confident, well adjusted dog, doesn’t feel threatend. It’s actually kind of sad, O-P-MM they talk the talk about being responsible for our own actions, and then blame others for all their problems. My guess, O and M are children or adolescents. With some education, they’ll probably grow into P’s. My guess, P has some very serious unresolved issues with his own parents. Since we don’t know what they did to him to make him turn out this way, we should try to be understanding. Which is not the same thing as letting him stomp all over us. You have to set boundaries with people like that, that’s part of their issue, they never learned from their own parents about setting proper boundaries. But that would explain his attitude about James and Kati Kim’s parenting, it’s not them who he is really mad it.

    Still Ann’s advise was best, to ignore them, we are just reinforcing them. They crave negative attention. That’s probably the only attention they had growing up, so they mistake it for love. While it’s quite sad, none of us are going to be able to fix it for them.

  293. Paul says:

    As one other poster theorized some time back, the other plausible answer for Sou’Wester is the bottle or some equivalent….at times rationale & reasonable, other times ?…reminds me more than a bit of a few alcoholics I have known – the nicest of people sober, the most horrific when in the cups.

  294. Susan says:

    (297) right, Paul, excellent summary, a very good find. I think it’s a very articulate summary of what we have been trying to say on this forum. I love the quote, “Yet in times of crisis, “People don’t rise to the occasion. They default to their training.” “

  295. glenn says:

    (301) His recklessness in other parts of his life provide additional evidence to that theory.

  296. Paul says:

    Yes, the irony of screaming down the interstate at speeds that would most certainly result in fatalities beyond his own at the same time he criticizes James for imperiling his family. With James K. it was a mistake in judgement…to me purposedy speeding (and were not talking 5 or 10 miles over the limit here folks) is something else altogether.

  297. bamadad says:

    So what about this. Edit it, spruce it up, flame it, I have no pride of authorship. Need to get Joe’s permission if it is signed with his blog title out of respect for him.

    Somebody can send it to National BLM at the Dept of Interior (BLM.gov) and USFS at Dept of Agriculture plus to a local Congressional Office in California and Oregon.
    ———————-

    One of our bloggers received this reply from BLM (Wash-Oregon) about 16 Dec 06:

    “In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road #34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
    purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
    roads provide public access.”

    Many of us hope to hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS nation-wide. BLM/USFS needs to review signage throughout your inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest/confusing intersections annually and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe BLM already does something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.

    Look at this photo of the intersection on Bear Camp in wet, not snowy weather. It’s obvious what is wrong!

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002

    Some of us believe that this could be a systemic problem, because the responsible official at the local BLM did not know about, or if so, they did not put a high priority on it. Or no one listened to their customers, who are all the motorists (local and out of state) who use that intersection. Otherwise we should have heard that the repair of this intersection is in some 5 year budget program.

    Here is the recent report of a “local customer” who apparently has been complaining to BLM for years about that intersection. BLM and USFS read this. It is obvious that your customer service is lacking. Many others have complained. A local lodge owner even helped mark the road, which works marginally in dry,clear weather.

    http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907

    BLM and the USFS could start with the official State maps depicting all routes thru your property and check those routes for similar problems. (Where the road is much more treacherous than it appears on the map.) That would cut out the large number of spur roads for budget reasons. If you saw some self-help, scrawled, painted directions on the dry pavement, like here with the words “Coast” and “Dead End”– seems that’s a clue something is not working.

    Our hope is that we don’t get a new sign, ONLY every time someone dies, due in small part to the absence of a sign or gate. We are NOT talking about a big program here, just a system to identify those few places (less than 10) which the current system has failed to find.

    Respectfully,
    [this was signed "The Joe Duck blog" but removed by editor to avoid confusion]

  298. Paul says:

    Scroll down and check out post #766 at the other site – more blame game:

    http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=760

  299. Lisa says:

    Re: 300 Susan, 304 Paul

    Yes, this is someone who doesn’t have much control of
    themselves (at least P is – are you saying P and S may
    be the same?) Anyway there’s a lot of the same energies
    there amongst all of them, namely anger.

    Putting down others is one of the quickest and cheapest
    self-esteem tricks in the book, and is behind so many
    insults, as well as more serious situations. It’s really
    about ignorance and making themselves feel better than
    someone else. But it’s cheap, and when you apply yourself
    to it full-time, it doesn’t really fufill you, so you
    get angrier. At least that seems to be the case here.

  300. Lisa says:

    Re: 306

    Even Swedes and Norwegians do it.

  301. D.H. says:

    Now you’ve still just got a gossip column going on here. One long attack rag against someone you say doesn’t deserve your attention. By the way, I think many of your assumptions and speculations about Pac are way off.

  302. mapper says:

    Lisa, I dont know, I don’t know what his issue is. But your 100% right about one thing, its about him, and no one else. He wants his voice to be heard, and for those who hear it to think its also the best and most worthy of being heard. I dont know if he has enough of a heart that any of this is coming from a bad childhood or low self-esteem. I think he’s just sociopathic, there are some deeper issues and reasons to act this way. We could very well make him our next case/study project after wrapping up what went wrong in the Kim case. We could save P from himself. Maybe.

    But everyone says ignore him yet were still talking about him, if not at him. I really dont know that he will stay away no matter what is said or not said by anyone. Like I said, I dont know if this all is going anywhere anymore, but if Kati ever reads it atleast she will know for sure P,O,MM are not winning any popularity contests, and furthermore — She doesn’t owe anyone anything! She has been through hell. Now she doesn’t even have James to protect her and it makes me sick to think of people like Pac pounding on her for answers. That is so sick and wrong, and I hope she knows it, and never ever is made to feel guilty enough by some sociopathic nut that she actually cracks. No one with any decency is expecting an apolgy or explanation from her.

  303. Lisa says:

    Paul – I was wondering if you could possibly email the
    link at 149 – the article about the sheriff and the
    undersheriff to those same reporters at the SF Chronicle.

    Unfortunately, I don’t know how to email links.

    I really think the undersheriff (acting sheriff) was a huge part of this failure. If you read the Seattle Times article
    link at 151, you can tell he was just sitting around doing
    nothing till he was forced into the hot seat.

    And he was Sara R’s superior…

  304. Navigator says:

    RE 294
    Some very nice route analysis. I would like to add a few comments about various internet mapping services and their uses.

    Google, Yahoo, MSN do not make their own maps. They provide information from other sources in four (more or less) similar layers.

    1. The map displayed is from two primary providers (Navteq and/or Tele-Atlas) this is verified by the license disclaimer on the bottom of the map display.
    2. The imagery is derived from government and private agencies. This is a cobbling of satellite (Landsat, Space Imaging, etc) and digitally scanned aerial photographs. This accounts for the variation of resolution and mix of color and black and white imagery. The map from above is displayed as a layer over this imagery.
    3. Route optimization software. This could be organic, but many companies provide such a service. This is the program which calculates the directions between two points. Typically they use a road classification hierarchy and a speed category to arrive at a solution.
    4. Business Directories/ Phone Directories are used to locate businesses, individuals or any other destination associated with the above layers.

    The warning about using NF-23 may be small or difficult to read on the ODOT map, yet I can’t find any such warning associated with the same route using the internet. Although I find these services to be of superb convenience with light speed response, a base axiom remains valid – Travelers beware.

    Upon reading Rob Z’s post I could see how one could be lulled into believing the selected route as quite viable (Merlin – Gold Beach) 78 miles and two to three hours time to travel.

  305. Lisa says:

    Re: 308 DH

    I thought you didn’t want to be here in this “chat room.”
    Anyway, this really isn’t what I want to be discussing,
    But what I said is very true.

    Plus, most of it hasn’t been an attack rag – most of it has been on topic. And you can’t compare the mostly constructive or humorous things we have written about this poster – to the abudance of attacks that border on pathology that they have sent to us.

    Believe me, we did not begin the attack.

  306. Paul says:

    The guys at the Chronicle have yet to respond on my e-mailing them the Sunday Oregonian link…seems futile to send anything more along.

    D.H. – doesn’t seem any worse to me than the stuff I see over at the Mail Tribune forum. Why do you care so much? If it bothers you that much, go somewhere else. Seems Oblivious did, and I can’t vouch for others, but I don’t miss him.

    It’s a puzzlement…Mickey Mouse and Sou’Wester keep coming back…if you totally disagreed with the content/comments of a given blog and everyone there aggravated you, why would you keep coming back except to fish for some kind of reaction because you got your Ya Yas off that way?

    And that’s not to say contentiousness and disagreement are a bad thing…you don’t want to fall prey to group think…but I think there has been a fair amount of disssension and disagreement amongst quite a few of us at various times, but it has been infinitely more civil & respectful than those 3.

  307. tara says:

    On map quest I requested directions from Sunny Valley (north of grants pass on I5) to gold beach and requested that seasonally closed roads not be shown. Bear camp route was the route suggested.

  308. Susan says:

    (306), No I think they are three different people. I think O is a child or an adolescent. I think M is an adult, but with very little or poor education, but possibly somewhat self taught. He seems to have a bit of poetic talent as well. And I think P is an adult and well educated. But sadly I think all three had similar parenting. Constant criticism at best, if not some more serious form of neglect or abuse. I have yet to meet a bully that was not using that as a defensive mechanism to cover up a coward.

  309. PacNWer says:

    glenn, better be careful about your amateur sleuthing. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, you’ve posted about my alleged identity is even remotely accurate. I’m telling you this in case you should publish the name and address of someone who is absolutely unconnected with me and they should want to pursue you for defamation.

    I live in Seattle not Eugene. I am not from Tennessee. Don’t own an airplane or a VW Golf. You’re wrong about all of it. I advise you to give it up before you get yourself in some real trouble.

    I suspect you will take this comment as evidence that you’ve come close to my identity, but you haven’t. You should consider this comment notice that you’ve been warned that you’re wrong.

  310. PacNWer says:

    As for the rest of it, I am laughing at you folks. Your Internet rallying has accomplished nothing of value for future SAR operations, and in the meantime you’ve shown that your “compassion” is completely phony. How many of your children work for CNET, anyway?

    And riddle me this, Batman: Why on earth is the Kim family soliciting donations on line? Money doesn’t exactly seem to be a problem for that crew.

  311. Lisa says:

    Re: 309 mapper

    I know, it made me wish I had never brought Kati
    up. I doubt she will ever read this though. I don’t
    think people who care about James can read these
    blogs because of those 20/20 -ers who are so aware
    of their hindsights.

  312. mapper says:

    thats funny, it looked to me like friends of the kim’s were just accepting gifts and donations. But yes perhaps kati rushed home from the hospital to start soliciting money, right.

  313. Lisa says:

    Re: 313 Paul

    It may be that they are looking into it, but they
    just have been too busy to contact you. I have a
    feeling they’re really interested.

  314. Paul says:

    I remembered right, you are from Seattle.

    Not to agree with you, but I’m not sure what relevance your true identity has anyway beyond possibly explaining why you are so intent on repeatedly bashing James Kim.

    For the record, I agreed numerous times with your basic premise that he made a horrific error in judgement, but what is the point of endlessly repeating that refrain ? He paid with his life, is that not enough for you ? Clearly others have made the same mistake. He’s not the first person to get lost and/or stuck up there. We can’t undo what he’s done, but we can discuss and address various ways to try to prevent it from happening again – better signage, gates, changes to maps, etc. It’s also relevant to look at where SAR oversite failed as the Sunday Oregonian article did. I understand the Josephine County authorities are disagreeing, but they need specifics to back them up which I have yet to see or hear.

  315. mapper says:

    Lisa,

    I hope your right, but it reminds me of that temptation most of us would have, if we knew something was out there, we didn’t want to read it, but couldn’t resist.

    I know some friends must be reading (here or other blogs), or eventually will. At least I’m happy to see most people are decent and kind, and it is obvious who they are, and I hope obvious to friends of the family, or family, that read all of this, and that most people understand and support them, very much.

  316. mapper says:

    ps. lisa, you didn’t bring up kati, pac made it well known early on that he had a problem with the whole Kim family and their “stupidity” and “irresponsibility”

    all the while, on other sites, he will say that the issue has been beaten to death (the kim’s stupidity).

    I guess he just wanted to make sure that here, that we all got the same beating, and he could play devil’s advocate over there. your hiliariously shifty pac. all further evidence to me you have no feelings, and are here only to mess with people. its like you dont even have enough heart to support your own words and thoughts, so much passion devoted only to anger, but no purpose.

  317. PacNWer says:

    Paul (#321) that’s a reasonable question. Here’s my answer: I’m no different than the others who, for whatever reason, got sucked into the Kim misadventure. Everyone’s got their opinions about it, and it so happens that my opinions are different from the weepy, Oprah-fied mush that’s been spread so thickly through the media.

    This being the Internet, and I being a maladjusted sociopathic meanie that I am, I’m ever so willing to mix it up. If nothing else, at the very least I think a fair view would be that I’m not afraid to point the finger wherever it should be pointed. Surely you’ve read my comments about the undersheriff who didn’t pick up his phone that one night, and about the former dispatcher who was not competent to be the SAR coordinator.

    The problem with the crew on this website is that, by and large, they are wallowing in that hero mush. It ought to be clear to all that this is primarily what I object to. The Kims themselves are highly culpable here, as are a handful of the SAR leaders. It’s the story of Dumb and Dumber.

    Oh, and as for all the handwringing about whether Kati or the kids will read this or other blogs, I suggest that everyone get over it. Anyone who thinks that people are obligated to sing nursery rhymes and tell fairy tales is living in la-la land.

    For better or for worse — I think for worse — this one became a national story. Which means that it’s in the public domain. Which means that it stands for more than just one guy dying. Which means that people can, and should, say exactly what they think. That’s what Americans do, like it or not.

  318. Lisa says:

    Our compassion isn’t “completely phony” – but riddle me
    this – at this point, do you think you deserve it?

    Also, people wanted to give the Kim’s donations.
    That’s how it started. They didn’t ask first. People
    wanted to give first. Riddle yourself that.

    We are here to discuss this situation. A lot of good
    ideas have been generated. Our purpose is not only
    to only accomplish something of value for future SAR
    operations, so that is not a valid point.

    It is a cheap way of trying to win an argument that we
    are not having with you.

  319. mapper says:

    I think someone else needs to stop crying about the use of the word HERO and GET OVER IT. If that is your biggest objection you are spending way too much time worrying about being called a hero, you want to be the best, smartest, brightest, the HERO. Your not. Go back to reading comic books with neat little endings and cape’s.

    Your upset over a WORD and for some reason PacNWer, that doesn’t surprise me.

  320. glenn says:

    (316) seriously pac…your threats will not work. Doesn’t matter if I am right or not – you took the bait.

    As for putting someone’s name out here – I wouldn’t do that unless it was publically known (i.e people in the story, reporters, etc).

    But at least your not picking on the defenseless Kim’s anymore we moved your attention elsewhere.

    Your reckless behavior in your personal life speaks volumes of the demons you are facing. For your sake and other innocent people I hope you stop – you are going to kill somebody some day.

  321. Paul says:

    #324 – I strongly disagree that the lions share of the postings have been “wallowing in that hero mush”. The majority of the posting have been speculations on – and discussion of – what went wrong at every level: the Kim’s decision making process; the SAR oversight (or lack thereof); the miscommunications at multiple stages.

    You clearly say EXACTLY what you think, now and always. I would argue that judgement and respect for the feelings of others often make holding ones tongue the more compassionate course of action. I recognize you completely disagree with that and I don’t think our two viewpoints are reconcilable.

  322. PacNWer says:

    mapper (#326), words are shorthand. It’s not the word that bugs me, it’s the sentiment behind it. The sentiment is unbalanced. Taken in total, the Kims should be held up as an example of negligence and irresponsibility, not of heroism.

    glenn (#327), no “threats” from me. Just a notice.

  323. Paul says:

    Apologies, I let him suck me in again.

  324. mapper says:

    pac, your worry and focus on the word “hero” is what is unbalanced.

  325. glenn says:

    (326)

    Definitions of the word Hero

    1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability

    1 b : an illustrious warrior

    1 c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities

    1 d : one that shows great courage

    2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work

    2 b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement

    3 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL

    It seems James Kim fits within several definitions of the word.

    1c fits him to a “T” in his personal life, family and work.

    1d he definitely showed a lot of courage.

    2b he is the central figure of this event.

    3 I am sure his kids thought he was hero even before this fateful event.

    I am not sure how anyone can debate the definition. It is clear that James Kim was a Hero.

  326. glenn says:

    (329) We are the ones giving you notice. You are begging for this attention and we can dig all we want.

    How do you explain your criticism of the Kim’s accidental irresponsibility whilst you “brag” about speeding at 92mph? That is deliberate irresponsibility and you are putting other people’s lives in danger. In some states that borders on reckless endangerment (a very serious charge).

    Why don’t you explain to everyone here why it is ok for you to be deliberately reckless and irresponsible but no one else can?

  327. glenn says:

    You know PacNWer there is no honor in what you do or say…not only hear but in the other places you have made comments.

    You are a very crass individual…

    Your joke about putting a baby in a dryer or microwave – really what is wrong with you?

    Speeding at 92mph? There is no reason for anyone to drive at that speed on a public road. Do you think yourself that important that you can disregard other people’s lives so you can arrive 1 minute earlier?

    So you want to sit here and judge the Kim’s (there is no honor in that), smear their good name, etc. Did you actually think that people would sit idle and let you continue?

    Why don’t you go out find something honorable to do today? I am sure you have a lot to make up for.

  328. D.H. says:

    Are you saying Glenn that you’ve never done anything irresponsible or risky for those with you? If you haven’t, how fortunate for you. You are now just glomming onto whatever you can to discredit Pac. You can find “something” to discredit nearly anyone. PacNWer is honest, thus his revelation of the accident he had. Sometimes he is “brutally” honest, or perhaps honest without much reservation. He will admit that I think. And I do not think anyone expects the Kims should be perfect. In a way, they were unlucky that they did not get away with their risks this time. Everyone takes risks to some degree. Although with the Kims, their risks were huge with their children, and their misjudgements and mistakes continued to a remarkable degree. Their story evokes horror in anyone, and hopefully a response of vowing not to let it happen to ourselves.

    This campaign to discredit PacNWer seems to be rather a negative waste of time concentrating on an individual. And a “project” to psycho-analyze him would even be a bigger waste of time. So the character of this message board has changed from constructive to trivial, and that is hard to deny. I initially had positive feelings about this board, but that was a long time ago. Now it is becoming dominated by “Frances Like” bitterness, which is not a compliment.

    I do compliment you on by and large a constructive board, until the last part. Until then, it was mostly interesting and informative, and gave me some good ideas. Even though I did have to weed through a lot of comments that emotionally supported the Kims actions, and after a while got to be repetitive. There should be “condolence” boards all to themselves, and then boards that are not “condolence” boards to express opinions and share information, IMHO.

  329. Maggie says:

    (297) Paul, thank you for that link. I, too, think it’s a pretty good summary and points out the need for training, good coordination and a means for relevant information to flow.

  330. Paul says:

    RE: 335 / D.H. – you are spot on, IMHO, on:
    “…a negative waste of time.”
    I count myself among the guilty, I let him suck me in again. He’s pretty good at baiting, you must concede, but we’ve been equally good at snapping at the bait. I think we’ve gone in about 100 circles with him (& O & MM) and made absolutely no headway and never will.

  331. glenn says:

    (335)
    D.H…appreciate your comments. It isn’t the points that Pac makes…it is his delivery and quite frankly they are mild on this board compared to what he is saying on other boards.

    This board has tons of great information and we should all be thankful for Joe for bringing this together. We are also all working very hard to make a difference in the future – and we would love to have you join us in that. A challenging voice to what we want to do is necessary to get it right.

    However where things really got weird with Pac is his out-of-the-blue rants, put-downs and absurd behavior. I recommend going back to the top of this page and reading posts 7 and 9 – short posts but speak volumes of his motives. The rest of us are trying to do something honorable, making something positive out of this horrible situation others like Pac want to disrupt, derail and even sabotage our efforts – he deserves all the crap he gets from everyone on this board.

    Every single time someone agreed with his points (and we ALL conceding them over and over again) he turns around within a short-time and attacks someone. I even got sucked into it on the original thread and even said…yeah Pac…yada yada ya, and then you will read later from me…you know back you just don’t know when to shut up.

    Quite frankly Pac is a disruptor and he thrives on that role but at some point you can’t ignore it and you have to take a stand – that is what everyone is doing here – we don’t have to take his crap and when he dishes it out he is going to get back.

    As for myself…aye yi yi…oh I have screwed up in my life too many times – I could really write a book about. I have directly cheated death three times for what could be considered stupid mistakes in hindsight. I have pushed the envelope too many times…broken a few bones…one incident caused me to spend a month in the hospital and a year of physical rehab and multiple operations.

    Yeah I have messed up a lot but I am one of the few lucky ones to still be alive…guess that is why I figure I can say something about it.

    You should hear the lectures my kids get. But you know, they are really street smart, happy and fun kids and they all get top grades in school. I am sure my kids dread the ole here goes dad again but they listen and learn…my oldest daughter calls them my “one time” stories…because they always start out – you know one time I did this and this is what happened…

    I feel bad in someways about the Pac crap rolling here in the blogs…but that is a small price to pay for the power of the blog and I do agree with Mapper – someone needs to defend the Kim’s honor – as nothing to do with who was right or wrong – the man is dead – he paid – his honor should be protected and respected along with his memory.

  332. Lisa says:

    Re: 335

    This is an open discussion board. There are many, many
    people – locals – people who have been on those roads
    that say it is too easy to make these mistakes. They
    say the roads are very confusing and poorly marked – the
    signs are too few and the information is weak – it is not
    clear enough that the road is impassable in the winter on maps. One woman who wrote an editorial about these issues lives on these roads.

    So the roads would be even more confusing at night in the
    mountains – when it starts to snow. The point is there
    were innocent mistakes. A lot of people recognize this.
    A lot of people don’t.

    Understanding that there were mistakes made – but that
    they were innocent mistakes – that is an opinion. That
    may “emotionally” support the Kim’s actions, but it
    is a valid opinion.

    Empathy can be part of an opinion. I have not seen any
    postings on this board which would qualify only as
    condolence postings. That’s just an excuse for people
    who don’t want to hear much sympathy for the Kims.

  333. RobZ says:

    Re: 311 Navigator

    Yes, I am trying to put myself in the place of the Kims during the evening of Sat, Nov. 25 to try to reconstruct – as best as possible given imperfect information – what they might have known and hence to understand the choices they made. I start with the assumption that they are/were smart people, but making decisions based on the limited information they had and hindered by 1) poor weather and visibility, 2) tiredness, 3) anxiousness to get to the coast, 4) children, and 5) perhaps other stresses we will never know about. I am not interested in judging them, only in understanding, as it isn’t helpful to second guess what they did that night.

    I am interested in changes that could be made to prevent future tragedies. In particular, looking at the ODOT map, I was stunned that a one-lane road with no turnoffs that is impassable in the winter would even be shown so boldly! The fact that the map said “closed in winter” isn’t helpful as 1) it wasn’t winter and 2) the road wasn’t closed but rather was open to traffic. I think this is one place where changes should be made.

    In the second part of my analysis, I hope to get a sense of the role that the open gate might have played. My hunch, as I indicated before, is they went straight though at the critical fork between NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36, not even realizing in the bad weather that they had made a wrong turn – until perhaps it was too late to turn around and go back.

    Just to be clear, my understanding is that the Kims did NOT use an Internet mapping service to navigate but rather the printed ODOT map. I am just using the Internet mapping services as a convenient way to see and understand the geography.

    Re: Many other posting

    Please folks, we are starting to see a fairly low signal-to-noise ratio here. Could we try to limit the cross talk and comments on individual posters and focus on the substantive issues at hand: How to learn from the Kim tragedy to prevent something similar in the future? Thank you.

  334. tara says:

    I know the kims used a paper map, but I think we should try to contact mapquest and let them know that their route (even when in advance search mode request to illimenate seasonally closed roads) is Bear Camp Route and it shouldnt be given as a viable route.
    others may use mapquest and take that road.

  335. Navigator says:

    RE 340

    Rob Z, we are in complete alignment about the analysis you are conducting. My comments about the internet mapping service was to illustrate the similarities between those using a paper map or a high tech (presumably better) version which may be of the same origin.

    There is absolutely no judgment inferred or intended on my part.

    Just a cautionary note to illustrate, the delta between low tech and high tech in this situation may be zero.

  336. bamadad says:

    RobZ, paul, gayle, glenn, lisa, maggie, mapper along those lines of RobZ, has anyone taken a look at my CMT 305 and earlier CMT 64. These took a bit of time to write.

  337. christine says:

    I think Pac is actualy trying to goad us into ACTION with his posts here. And he’s laughing at us because he can say a few things, little things, and send people off on a tirade that detracts from the purpose at hand. How easily we are re directed! His forum at the mailtribune was the picture of civility and purpose. There are some good concrete suggestions on there. its so much slower though than this site! Maybe its reverse psychology (which does not work, anyone with kids knows that!)he’s attempting here. “You people will accomplish nothing”…. Sounds like it could be a reverse psychology approach to me…

    Cant we all just put our heads/resources together for a plan? why does it have to be a competition?

  338. mapper says:

    I see 64 but not 305. I occasionally work and sleep during posting so I am sorry I didn’t stop to say, I read it, and I am in full agreement! I thought maybe people were tired of me also harping on the USFS and BLM so I figure, my opinion on that is pretty well noted!

    I think I read someone….above or elsewhere, they actually got lost up there and came across one “you are here map” but it was carved out of wood!?!?!?

    that would be a nightmare! I dont think that is the kind of map/sign neccessary up there!

  339. glenn says:

    (64) Hey bamadad…I just read 64. At that point in this thread I was really focused on processing all the mount hood data so I am sorry for not spending any time on this until now…

    You have a very good summary of the data points both in regard to current coverage and the past history of SAR in Oregon. I read through all of those stats previously and was quite surprised that there weren’t a lot more city slickers losts up in those hills as some would have liked us to believe.

    As far as Peter Sleeth – thank god somebody has the drive to get to the bottom of this. I have had some minor communication with him throughout this and he has been very candid, polite and definitely wanting to get more out than he has so far – not sure I really want to know just how bad it is.

    Yes I guess we all better hope a review in under way. Sounds like BLM is really trying to be on top of this – that’s good…just sad to see such a tragedy like this to bring it to the forefront at least it is better than ostrich mode.

    I also think it is very important for everyone to understand that SAR doesn’t ever place blame on the victim(s) regardless of how it happened. SAR’s mandate is clear – the name says it all – Search And Rescue. It is becoming painfully clear just how important it is to have someone with the proper experience, fortitude and openness required to be successful as the coordinator of a SAR effort.

    As sad as this sounds…I don’t think finding the Kim family was really the priority of Rubrecht and Anderson based on their decisions, actions and their personal situations. It really wasn’t until Mr. Kim flew up there in a private jet did things get fired up. I just keep going over and over the missed opportunities and bad decisions on Friday, Saturday and Sunday night, etc…etc…etc… each one of those opportunities turned into another loop in the noose around James neck.

  340. Paul says:

    344 / Bamadad – just clarifying, post 305 ?…that’s my post with a link. Did read your other lengthy 64, excellent info and subsequent good resource contact info on how we can get some of this stuff put into action.

  341. Paul says:

    346 – Carved out of wood. I know exactly which map is being referenced, and while not the best map in the world, it is not nearly as decipherable at the author insisted…or I guess I should say I can understand it.

  342. glenn says:

    (345) Christine I don’t think PacNWer is trying to be that clever. You did give him too much credit. The intent of his posts and approach is very clear. You are correct about the re-direct…it has happened but we always seem to find our place again.

    Outside of this forum and Pac’s participation there is a lot going on.

    For me I guess most of the issues surrounding the Kim’s tragedy has been aired out now it is time for the systems in place to review and correct. Hopefully they will and it won’t be swept around a rug.

    For my attention regarding PacNWer…I was brought up if there was a bully in the school yard you just went up and kicked his arse…sometimes and unfortunately it is what it takes. If some think dealing with Pac has detracted from the depth of wisdom here – I apologize – I am just trying to clean up the school yard.

    It is my guess in the long run Pac will be a distant memory and something long-lasting and helpful will come out of this and will help save a life someday.

  343. Susan says:

    337 Everything you said, ditto. Our fault, it’s only going to work if we all totally ignore him. Then he’ll go away, and then he’ll come back again later hoping we forgot our pledge to ignore him. He doesn’t thrive on negativity, he needs it, like we need to breath. If we don’t give him what he needs, he’ll go find it elsewhere.

  344. Maggie says:

    (344) bamadad, yes, I did read your comments in (64) and liked what you had to say. I had previously posted the same link from Susan Nielsen/Oregonian because it speaks volumes. I’ve still not heard back from Patty at BLM, but my hope is that it’s because they’ve received several emails such as mine and are busy working on good ideas for the roads, etc.

  345. Paul says:

    Still would be curious how the Sleeth article is being received in Grants Pass & Medford. We know the sheriff did a radio press conference where he said the article is flat out wrong, but the evidence thus far that Sleeth has it “right” is pretty compelling.

    Joe, Spencer, Bob H. – have you seen any specific refutations from the Sheriff and/or other agencies in the area that you can cite or link to ?

    In addition to the OR / CA issues I cited in 268, there is the all too common rural/city divide in Oregon. It is amplified in Oregon in that Portland/Salem/Eugene have the lions share of the population base, so tend to drive decisions politically, but are generally more liberal than the rest of the state, esp the rural areas. The point of all that is you end up in a situation where folks in Josephine County may be less inclined than they should be to take constructive outside criticism from anyone in the city, esp the city of Portland.

  346. bamadad says:

    REPOST: So what about this. Edit it, spruce it up, flame it, I have no pride of authorship. Need to get Joe’s permission if it is signed with his blog title out of respect for him.

    Somebody can send it to National BLM at the Dept of Interior (BLM.gov) and USFS at Dept of Agriculture plus to a local Congressional Office in California and Oregon.
    ———————-

    One of our bloggers received this reply from BLM (Wash-Oregon) about 16 Dec 06:

    “In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road #34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these roads provide public access.”

    Many of us hope to hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS nation-wide. BLM/USFS needs to review signage throughout its inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest/confusing intersections annually and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe BLM already does something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.

    Look at this photo of the intersection on Bear Camp in wet, not snowy weather. It’s obvious what is wrong!

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002

    Some of us believe that this could be a systemic problem, because the responsible official at the local BLM did not know about, or if so, they did not put a high priority on it. Or no one listened to their customers, who are all the motorists (local and out of state) who use that intersection. Otherwise we should have heard that the repair of this intersection is in some 5 year budget program.

    Here is the recent report of a “local customer” who apparently has been complaining to BLM for years about that intersection. It is obvious that your customer service is lacking. Many others have complained. A local lodge owner even helped mark the road, which works marginally in dry,clear weather.

    http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907

    BLM and the USFS could start with the official State maps depicting all routes thru your property and check those routes for similar problems. (Where the road is much more treacherous than it appears on the map.) That would cut out the large number of spur roads for budget reasons. If you saw some self-help, scrawled, painted directions on the dry pavement, like here with the words “Coast” and “Dead End”– seems that’s a clue something is not working.

    Our hope is that we don’t get a new sign, ONLY every time someone dies, due in small part to the absence of a sign or gate. We are NOT talking about a big program here, just a system to identify those few places which the current system has failed to find.

    Respectfully,

    [Editorial note - this was signed "The Joe Duck blog" because bamadad was asking about a community effort note. I (Joe) removed that for now to avoid people thinking I wrote something I didn't ]

    Comment by bamadad | December 19, 2006

  347. bamadad says:

    Maggie, thanks for the input on my cmt 64 post. I know that sometimes the word doesn’t get to the proper official who can make something happen. Even on something this widely publicized. At the least, a letter to the local Congressmen or Senator out there (make sure he/she was reelected or send to the new chap) will prompt some kind of eventual response. Same goes for higher level within an agency.

    I think whoever went to the local BLM level was completely correct and very sharp and got an immediate response, if they already weren’t in action. (Susan, I think did this and I quoted from her post– she did very well).

    So I was just toying around with how a blog like this would work. This kind of blog is just a post it, and you can’t make edits or flag people. Not sure what kind of blog software this is or permits the editing functions.

  348. glenn says:

    (353) I am wondering what follow up will occur in regard to additional articles, etc…

  349. Susan says:

    (353) was that the new sherriff that did the press conference?

  350. Paul says:

    #356: “Sheriff Daniels, Josephine County Sheriff, had a press conference on local stations in the Southern Oregon area tonight. He hasn’t been seen for some time, because he has some kind of undisclosed medical issues. They were serious enough that he withdrew from a political race earlier this year.

    Daniels disputed the Oregonian piece and said that some of the statements attributed to his SAR leader and OSP were lies. He also disputed some of the other claims made in the Oregonian.

    In reference to OSP taking over, Daniels said it didn’t happen this time and won’t happen anytime. They work together in searches, but the statutory responsibility and authority for SAR is long established as belonging to the Sheriff of the affected county.”

  351. glenn says:

    (356) Has anyone found a link to the presser?

  352. Paul says:

    Sounds to me like he takes pretty strong exception to the article, hence my interest in how it is playing out locally…calling them “lies” is pretty strong language.

  353. Lisa says:

    Re: 353

    Yes, Paul that’s true. It’s interesting that so far as
    we know they’ve just said it’s wrong but they haven’t
    clarified what’s wrong.

    I won’t be able to participate as much because I have
    some other issues that are pressing – I will check
    back in.

    I just wanted to say that it was nice to “meet” all
    of you and it has really helped renew and affirm my understanding of how many truly good quality people
    are out there.

    At some point I would like to backtrack and follow-up on
    all the emails that have been sent to different agencies,
    to send more, and also to check in a month or two, and see what the follow through is.

    I will keep your email address, glenn, because I’m sure
    that would be a good way to catch up on any developments!

    I hope a record of this blog may be able to be kept on this
    website, but I don’t know how all that will work.

    Keep up the good work! It’s very admirable!

    Affectionately, Lisa

  354. Paul says:

    Glenn – I’ve not been able to find a print version of the press conf., hence my solicitation. Kind of vague to allege the account is lies yet not give specifics to back that up.

  355. Susan says:

    (64) bamadad, just re-read your article, excellent common sense advise. Do you think USFS will do a review as well as BLM, or that BLM is doing that for USFS? Somehow I thought USFS owned the land and BLM managed it for them, but I really don’t know.

    BLM did write me back “In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern
    Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of
    experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road
    #34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
    purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to
    those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for
    future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
    roads provide public access.”

    I have not heard back from Portland police, I was hoping to clear the name of Mike Weinstein and/or to find out if a review was underway by them.

    I wrote Oregon State Police as well, have not heard back.

    It seems you would want to constantly want to review coordination and communication. Not just when things went wrong, even when they go right.

  356. Susan says:

    I just had a thought, someone posted an article about Josephine county SAR, and I think there was some reference that SAR must have certain qualifications. Maybe there is some kind of licensing or oversight by some government agency that both the volunteers and professionals must belong to. That agency might be very receptive to feedback and questions. If anyone remembers which # that article is in, let me know.

  357. Susan says:

    363, found it, 134
    “Every Member of the Josephine County Sheriff’s Patrol SEARCH & RESCUE must meet certain standards and training to ensure a safe and successful search and/or rescue. The standards are developed and maintained by the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association (OSSA). These certification standards are the minimum which meet state requirements of the Office of Emergency Management and still allow the flexibility for the specific needs or conditions in which our ground personnel operate. The OSSA certification standards are the minimum standards for SAR personnel who will be involved in the field with ground SAR operations as well.”

    So now have to figure out how to contact OSSA.

  358. Gayle says:

    Re: #344 Yes, I did read the posts (you did a wonderful and time consuming job of puting this together!) and agree. Sorry, I don’t comment but rarely, mostly just share whatever I find by linking, but I do read each and every post when I have a chance to sit down at the computer.

  359. Kip says:

    Lisa, pls keep my email too! …kipscott at gmail dot com

  360. Lisa says:

    Re: 367

    Thanks kip! I will!

    Also p.s.

    I heard today on public radio our Oregon Governor, Ted
    Kulongoski, saying that he thinks one way to improve
    SAR is to have the state get more involved. He cited how often the efforts begin in more than one county,
    and that it would be good to have more oversight and
    coordination from the state.

    I know some people think more bureaucracy = more of a problem. But I don’t think that would be true in this case. It sounds like there would be more specialized competent people overseeing SAR for the whole state.

    And I think his response had even more to do with the
    Kim’s story than with Mt. Hood, because that was not
    a multi-county search.

  361. D.H. says:

    Joe, if that was you over at Medford forum… that is the danger of one person owning a so called “forum”… you’re right. This is definitely “your little blog”. Emphasis on “YOUR”. Your need to go over there and stir it up by attacking PacNWer at the expense of our thread was not becoming of the owner of this running thread over here. Over there, it’s one of many Topics in the Mail Tribune forums, not “owned” by anyone but the Mail Tribune, who are trying to be objective. But you’re NOT being objective, and as the owner of this “forum”, you have crossed the line. Just for revenge at one person, you have sacrificed your credibility.

  362. PacNWer says:

    #345, it’s good to know that it only took 1,350 messages on this board until someone finally figured out a big piece of what I’m trying to do. It’s what gadflies have done throughout the ages. Now come on, people, you’ve had all this time to come up with ideas. I’ve actually done it. Did it a looooooooong time ago.

    If I so (fill in the adjective), then how come I’m the only person here who’s actually come up with a specific list of ideas that, if promoted, would SAVE LIVES? That’s what it’s about, right? Right?

    Maybe not for you, then.

  363. Maggie says:

    I’ve always insisted on having a cell phone with analog as well as digital, but as scarce as they’ve become, last week I had to bit the bullet when I got my new phone – all digital, and possibly all limiting when it matters most on the way to some of the remote places I like to camp where analog sometimes kicks in where digital didn’t exist. Anyway, something else to think about when considering people lost somewhere even less urban than just rural:

    http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/communication/stories/165028.html

  364. Navigator says:

    In response to attending a survival school.

    I can attest to no finer medium to appreciate the ability to endure or appreciate being in such a circumstance. As a former member of the military, I was required to complete an 11 day survival course. Additional courses included Jungle, Water and Desert techniques. I’m NOT advocating the attendance of any of the afore mentioned, just passing along my personal experience.

    The first or second day is filled with accepting your station in this situation. Hunger pangs equate to starving and the lack of comfort equates to impending doom.

    Day three/four….the hunger pangs have stopped….my thoughts of food are central to every action and movement. Previous qualms about consuming ants or other insects have ceased. In fact, I openly consume them in an effort to maintain core body temp. This has become my primary function during daylight hours, between finding and constructing shelter.

    The fifth day, traveling a mile would be an accomplishment, don’t want to leave familiar territory, but needed to find salvation. I make my mattress out of pine boughs (as trained) stacked at least four feet high. I had a knife and the knowledge to construct the afore mentioned long before sunset (3 PM).

    Day six, my first (and only) experience with hallucinations. They are in fact 3-D, full color and appear as real as anything else. Between my boots, as I sat resting against a pine tree, was an ear of corn with a pat of butter and steam rising. I recall grasping at that inviting and familiar food source without success for some time.

    Day seven to eleven, I could have committed the Lindburgh kidnapping, as I have no reliable recall. I was able to make the final point in this exercise.

    When approached by the instructors, I was handed a clipboard and asked to complete the questionnaire, I thought I was looking at a combination of the SAT and ACT tests.

    Several days later, I was presented with the same questionnaire and reviewed my answers. There were about 15 questions, most of which I have long forgotten (1981). The one question I do recall was…Farmer Brown has two cows, he sells two cows, how many cows does Farmer Brown have? I drew a picture of a cow as a response.

    Attending survival school was a million dollar experience, I would not give a nickel to repeat If this perspective can offer ANY insight to the trials of a survival experience (without the benefit of training) it was well worth it.

  365. glenn says:

    (370) Pac how long ago did you come up with your ideas?

  366. Gayle says:

    Navigator, thank you for sharing your experience. As well as you explained it, and I think you did that very well, I still can only imagine.

  367. RodneyG says:

    Two questions, both of which may be dumb.

    1. What *exactly* do the warning signs on Bear Camp Rd say? I read a reference that seemed to indicate those signs essentially say “Bear Camp Road is closed and dangerous blah blah blah” as opposed to “The road you are currently on is closed and dangerous blah blah blah”. Can someone tell us exactly what they say? The obvious point being, if you’re not from around there, you probably have no idea what “Bear Camp Road” is.

    2. Has anyone seen any comments from Kati, even secondhand, about whether James explored the roads during the days they were stranded? I seem to remember something about her saying they were constantly scared of a bear attack, but I can’t find it now.

    Thanks.

  368. RodneyG says:

    RobZ, I posted a couple times last week that I believe they never went past the fork on the “correct” side. I think everything can be explained with that scenario. And that scenario makes the most sense. I also believe that Kati probably doesn’t know.

  369. bamadad says:

    Susan and Gayle,….Susan, looks like Gayle found the Josephine County standards for SAR. Good job. Supposedly they are higher than the state minimums. So anyone want to compare. The Oregon SAR standards are at:

    Here is the site for his annual Oregon SAR reports, etc. http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml

  370. bamadad says:

    Question from Susan:

    Do you think USFS will do a review as well as BLM, or that BLM is doing that for USFS? Somehow I thought USFS owned the land and BLM managed it for them, but I really don’t know.

    I think they will act independently. The land upon which Kim died was BLM (I think) and BLM will probably start a review with modest prodding based on his death. USFS would likely need a bit more prodding to review their signage- it would detract from their fire fighting efforts.

    Yes this was unclear to me as well, but they are completely separate agencies (maybe some coordination), but BLM is Dept of Interior and USFS is Dept of Ag. BLM also manages oil, mineral, drilling rights on its property– so I hope these guys can spring for a few new directional signs, some Dead End signs and a gate or two.

    From their web sites:
    The Bureau of Land Management (BLM), an agency within the U.S. Department of the Interior, administers 258 million surface acres of America’s public lands, located primarily in 12 Western States.

    The Forest Service was established in 1905 and is an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The Forest Service manages public lands in national forests and grasslands, which encompass 193 million acres.

  371. Gayle says:

    Re: #375 part 2… this is from

    http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4832318

    “He was on dirt for a long time — for miles,” Rachor said. “He was only on snow about 100 yards. Right where he hit the snow there were bear tracks. I don’t know which came first, the chicken or egg. I understand (Kati Kim) told someone they were terrified of bears. Whether he saw the bear tracks and decided to leave the road or whether he tried to head down a drainage to get to civilization, we just don’t know that.

    It’s the only reference I have seen.

  372. Paul says:

    375 – The signs say, exactly: Bear Camp Rd. may be blocked by snowdrifts X miles ahead. There are 3 signs. They are all quite large and all but impossible to miss. They are bright yellow. They do not say the road would be closed, but I think “blocked” is all but saying the same thing. The number of miles ahead changes from sign to sign as they are each closer to the ridge summit.

  373. glenn says:

    (378) Begs the question…were they operating at their stated standards?

  374. Paul says:

    382 – I still think the previously stated theory, based on Kati’s testimony, that he thought he was descending the creek above Galice is very interesting. Of course we’ll never know for sure, but given where she says they thought they were, it makes sense.

  375. glenn says:

    (372) Your post brings good insight to how James was feeling and thinking. 9 days without a lot of food, from what I have read he didn’t eat anything he made sure his wife and kids had all the food.

    Navigator how would you assess James’s efforts after leaving the car in the type of condition he was in? Were you surprised at how far he made it in that canyon?

  376. Paul says:

    Post 372 speaks directly to James state of mind after 7+ days without food. I suspect none of the rest of us are qualified to address, as Navigator has, how coherent (or not) his thoughts were (or weren’t).

  377. Gayle says:

    Just found this here…

    http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120606_news_camp_road.25238b1.html

    Burel said the Forest Service and BLM wanted like to hear from the public about what they think should be done with Bear Camp Road and the spur roads off of it.

    They can call Patty Burel at the US Forest Service in Medford at (541) 858-2200.

  378. Paul says:

    #369 D.H. – What is with you ? There is NO evidence, zero, that Joe has posted on that forum. Joe has largely stayed above this fray, to his great credit, opining very infrequently and largely on matters totally unrelated to PCNWR. What HAS happened is other posters have – as they have here – grown fed up with Sou’Wester trying to hijack the blog and with his incessant blather about the same points over and over and over. I will not engage further with Sou’Wester, nor with you, but I had to speak up on Joe’s behalf as that was a cheap shot.

  379. Maggie says:

    (372) Navigator, thank you for sharing that incredible insight into what it’s like trying to survive. I really can’t even imagine.

    (377) Rodney, I’m still kind of thinking the same – that the Kim’s never made it onto SF23 and instead took that right continuing on 34-8-36 (I’m curious if anything there shows 34-8-36 as such that may have made them also think it was a continuation of the route they were already on??), once down that road they maybe took one of the offshoots from which they actually backed up, and most of all – they were desperately lost, and I don’t know whether Kati would actually have any better idea now than then of exactly where they turned or backed up. As others have said, just a hunch. I really doubt that we will ever know for certain. What we do know is that particular fork in the road has confused plenty of people, and most were just fortunate enough to make it back out of there.

  380. D.H. says:

    PAUL: – You decide. If I’m wrong, I apologize.

    There’s no escaping Pac-Man.

    At this link:

    http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-m…ness-of-oregon/

    Pac-Man (as they call him there) conducted himself just as righteously and egotisically as he does here, but with an added dose of immaturity and anger, check this stroke of brilliance out:

    “Susan’s e-mails did nothing. Your group did nothing. You came up with no ideas of any value. The Oregonian did all of the reporting and all of the analysis. This forum has been nothing, and I do mean nothing, but a vehicle for you people to congratulate yourselves on how concerned you are, and to engage in your pointless fetish for how the Internet can solve these things. Which it cannot.”

    I’m browsing around trying to get into some intelligent discussion re: this case, which to me is getting more curious by the day (Sarah, shame shame) and this guy is everywhere – what exactly do you get out of browbeating complete strangers? It’s clear that you get off big time on attention and I know I’m feeding the monster, but dude you need to lighten up – life is short.

    Joe

  381. bamadad says:

    Navigator, Susan, RobZ, Gayle

    I have had similar, even longer, military training, decades ago. One of those “wouldn’t ever do it again, but wouldn’t have missed it for the world” deals. Where was yours, Navi?

    That survival aspect drew me to this thread for info. Plus by watching the internet videos and photos, I wanted to figure out when I would have turned back. That soon became clear and at that point, I let out, an “oh, my God” sigh. and worried about any rescue.

    Then I wanted to see what I would have done if I was propelled forward to his post-stuck predicament, but with only his equipment/resources. Obviously, I would have made different choices, but the wildcard here is the dynamics of a wife, 4 year old, and infant in the car for six days. That is a huge factor.

    Anyway, once I was done with that, I posted some info here to give perspective on the SAR response, because the SAR response just didn’t make sense at the command and control level

    …..and to write a draft email and post it, so the younger internet savvy folks, could just take my draft comments (CMT 355), make it their own and send them off to BLM, USFS, Congress, whoever.

  382. Lisa says:

    Re: 375 Rodney

    The only signs I saw on Bear Camp in the CNN photos
    said “Warning May Be Snow Drifts Ahead”.

    There is the editorial from the woman who lives there (you can find the link at post 245) and she says they say “‘Bear Camp Road’ May Be Closed in Winter.”

    I know I saw photos that said what I first quoted,
    and I will try to find them. Still it’s obvious that
    “May Be” is not clear or strong enough to dissuade people who don’t know the mountains better.

    Re: 376

    You go girl, Francis. This blog is meant to be
    informative, but real and relaxed. Some people
    want it to be more on point, some people want it to
    also be enjoyable. I believe there’s room for both.
    But the people who really complain like D.H. are just
    eager to be critical.

    I agree though that it’s probably best not to engage
    in a lot of personal assault and speculation – because it can get out of hand and take up a lot of blog space. Then it all turns into “As the Blog Scrolls…” Which is very
    much what the confusing statements of 369 seemed to reflect.

    (it’s hard to stay away!)

  383. Frances says:

    1. This is a person’s personal blog – everyone who comes here knows this – this has never been represented as anything other, to my knowledge. Being’s one personal blog, they can run it any way they choose and let what ever they want flow. If another comes to a personal blog & doesn’t like it the way it’s run, or doesn’t feel it holds the amount and/or quality of information they are seeking, then go to someone else’s blog, forum, message board or start your own of any of the previously mentioned.

    2. If you don’t like the feelings/sentiments of people posting on someone’s personal blog, then go elsewhere

    3. One person does not have all the answers nor are the solutions found quickly, easily or from one person only. It is a formulation of time, thought – individual as well as group – effort, trial & error, give & take, use & throw out. It is a process.

    4. Those who share a similar general opinion, effort & viewpoint have the right to assemble without people who only want to cause trouble, attack and bring little constructive to the group. When a group has communicated in a decent manner among itself, there is nothing wrong with that group continuing to want to do so in said manner & want new comers to the group to a do so, as well. This does not mean the group doesn’t welcome new input.

    5. D.H. for one who resented being called a follower of PW, you surely spend a great deal of effort defending the very one you resented being called a follower of.

    6. You took offense at something I said and now you’re trying to bait me. Amuse yourself. I made a mistake. I recognized and admitted my mistake, I sincerely apologized, gave an explanation – not excuse, explanation & excuse are different. There’s nothing more I can do than that, and nothing more I will try to do.

    7. One thing I thought I might be able to bring to this forum which no one else seemed to have done so far at the point I did, not that I’m anything special or had any insight that no one else had, but only that no one else had brought it up at the point I did, was the dynamics of the inside of the workings of officials of a small community. Location may be different, faces may be different, names may be different, there may be less significant individual differences, but the basics of human dynamics are not nor are the inner dynamics of the workings of a small community. If I have exhibited any bitterness it is because I’ve personally witnessed how this dynamic can put lives at risk, as was done in the Kim’s case.

    Thought processes have been intense, efforts have been, are being made. Emotions have been wound up. Yes, including my own. Sometimes the best relief can be humor, take a break, stretch a bit, humor can be used as a mental walk to ease up before getting back to work. One does not have to keep things completely serious all the time or one’s nose to the grindstone every second to make progress. And because there is not complete seriousness 100% of the time and because noses are not kept to the grindstone 100% of the time, does not mean that the focus or interest is being lost or re-directed.

    If you see my efforts as ‘bitter’ so be it.

  384. D.H. says:

    MY PROFUSE APOLOGIES TO JOE DUCK. After some research, this was not Joe Duck. I jumped the gun. Once again, my above posts #369 and #392 are not true about Joe Duck. Joe, you are free to delete them. I’m so sorry.

  385. Mickey M says:

    Into thin Ozone …

    Holy Leapin’ Luddites !!
    Now let’s all start being creative and start thinking about new inventions to prevent foolishness and bad luck.

    Ah-ha! I know! Thanks to the internet, we will solve the problems of humanity and make this a better world and everyone will be happy.

    First invention in the blog hall of fame is the Electric GPS Driver Collar or Robo-driver.

    This handy device when properly placed on the driver’s collar is a GPS based system incorporating the highest accuracy in positioning tech (and it also serves you coffee in the morning if you program it to). Now this little gizmo will Auto-matically (no pun intended) ZAP the driver with a harmless but painful electric shock whenever he or she misses a turn and goes the wrong way.

    And … The Electric GPS Collar will keep ZAPPING the driver at ever increasing frequencies until he/she pulls a U.

    And … The Electric GPS Collar cannot be removed until … the driver fills the car’s Gas Tank !!

    Brilliant! Perfect Stocking-stuffer!

    Next … A brain-implantable version of the Electric GPS Collar!

  386. Frances says:

    Navigator – very insightfull & helpful

  387. glenn says:

    (389) I was going to suggest to D.H. that he should verify that is was Joe in the first place…

    A simple Hey Joe did you post…

    Then respond…Thanks Paul something needed to be said.

  388. Navigator says:

    RE 386, 387, 374, 379

    To your posts I can only answer the following…..I KNEW it would only last 11 days, I KNEW I was being observed, I KNEW it was an exercise.

    After three or four days, the afore became irrelevant. This may seem hard to believe, but is the truth from my perspective. I WAS LOST and had to rely on my training. Missing a meal or being delayed by hours during travel has NO effect upon me. I do appreciate how this may not be such a circumstance in other conditions. I would assess, surviving the trials of Mr. Kim without training as beyond my realm of comprehension. He did a stellar job compared to my personal experience or expectation! PERIOD!

    I can say, after the first four or five days (I had NO family) my mental capabilities were reduced to that of a simple hunter/gatherer. PERIOD. Should anyone have a different experience, by all means speak up!

  389. glenn says:

    (395) cool thanks for stepping up. it is appreciated.

  390. Gayle says:

    Re: #390 Here’s that link again…

    http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?q=james+kim

    click on …Road that isolated family was supposed to be closed…in the menu. Video has pics of road signs on Bear Camp Rd.

  391. Frances says:

    Does anyone know if there are any national SAR standards which each state and/or local SAR has to meet?

  392. Gayle says:

    Thank you, DH, for being so honest. :)

  393. glenn says:

    (398)
    Thanks for your assessment very interesting to try to understand the superhuman effort he put in. That is one dedicated father – amazing what love for your family can make happen. It is also further testament that James King should be remembered as a hero.

    Your insight is appreciated.

  394. glenn says:

    (402) sorry I did it again…James Kim…not King…I wonder who James King is…could he be a hero too?

  395. Susan says:

    397-392 He apologized, right away. Everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone will admit it.

  396. Lisa says:

    Re: 375, 390

    Also here’s the article that has CNN video. They
    took the original pictures of the road off the
    article to provide more room for advertising.

    I haven’t seen the video myself because I still
    have dial-up and it’s so slow.

    http://cnn.com/2006/US/12/11/griffin.oregon/index.html?eref=sitesearch

  397. glenn says:

    (404) re(397) about (392) please see (399)

  398. Susan says:

    406 LOL! that was good, and yes, I missed 399, or was it 392? 397? 404?
    Sorry

  399. glenn says:

    (407) sounded like u committed a 1267 regarding that 404 in relation to the 397 that was responding to 392 and ultimately ended up here…

    come to think of it you can’t get there from here…

  400. glenn says:

    (370) Hey Pac if a lot of this frustration you are exhibiting has to do with the frustration of not seeing your idea implemented you really need to send me an email and I will take a serious look at it and see if there is a way to get your idea done.

    Ideas are just that…ideas. Executing on them to make them real is a whole other story and if this what is driving you nuts and getting you so angry believe I have been there…been my whole life trying to turn ideas into real things.

    If your serious about making something happen then drop me that email.

  401. Navigator says:

    RE 393 Bamadad,

    My training was near Spokane, WA, Miami, FL, Tucson, AZ and the Philippines.

    I have no wife or children to consider, so your question is beyond my realm of comprehension. (As is any other in regard to family safety).

    My training was in regard to surviving an aircraft crash and contacting rescue. The part of this post I find most compelling, is the added survival of a wife and children. I can’t provide any information in regard to the afore mentioned. I would suggest, your sense of self preservation equating to the preservation of your deserving family or any other person involved. That is the credo by which I have conducted my life, since survival training, at least.

    Sorry for the milque toast answer.

  402. Navigator says:

    RE 393 Bamadad,

    If you went through similar training, I know I’m asking for a lot, what were your experiences?

  403. Lisa says:

    I’d be interested in hearing from someone who’s viewed
    the videos of the road and the signs recently, an
    exact quote of what they say…

  404. Kyle says:

    I’m joining this conversation late after stumbling on the site while doing an Internet search. I’m very interested in the signage issue. The warning signs, according to the CNN video, say “BEAR CAMP RD (NF-23) MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOWDRIFTS 33 MILES AHEAD,” “BEAR CAMP RD (NF-23) MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOWDRIFTS 28 MILES AHEAD” AND “ROAD (NF-23) MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOWDRIFTS 10 MILES AHEAD.” Here’s my question: Forget about the Kims for a minute and assume I’m a dumb tourist driving on I-5 looking for a route to the coast. I check my Randy McNally atlas and see an unnamed route leading from Grants Pass to Gold Beach. So I take the exit. What does the exit sign on I-5 say? Does anybody know? I assume it says “Galice Road” because isn’t that the name of the road at that point? At what point does the road actually become “Bear Camp Road?” So if I’m driving on Galice Road and I see a sign that says “Bear Camp Road (NF-23) may be blocked by snowdrifts,” I might say to myself, “OK, I’ll be sure to stay on Galice Road and not turn off on Bear Camp Road,” not realizing that Galice Road and Merlin-Galice Road and NF-23 and Bear Camp Road are all essentially the same route, the one that I am taking. How would I know that, unless I’m using a detailed map, or I’m a local?

  405. PacNWer says:

    glenn, (373), I’ve been posting about this on two forums, both of which you are familiar with. Do your own research.

    Frances (376) the administrator of this “personal blog” is free to delete and comments he sees fit, for any reason. By the way, there are times when I think I’m long-winded, but at least I have something to say.

    Some answers for the rest of you:

    – The signs on the road say that it may be closed by snow in X miles. Before you engage in another foolish, unhelpful debate over the wording on the signs, consider that the uber-brilliant James Kim had to open his car door because it was snowing so hard. Don’t ya think he might have figured that those signs applied even to a super-techie from San Francisco? Nah. Guess not.

    – I’m not Mickey M or Observing. If you had a brain in your collective head (more on that one in a bit) you’d see that I’m the grain of sand in your oyster. So go build a damned pearl, smart ones. Even a mollusk knows how to do that, for God’s sake.

    – Earlier in this whole colloquy (on the prior thread) someone mentioned “the beehive” in relation to what can be achieved by Internet collaboration. I offer a different model: The corporate meeting. Once you get more than three people in a business meeting, the total I.Q. declines in direct proportion to the number of people in the room.

    – If you’re not careful, I just might get pissed off enough to do your work for you and tell you what can be learned from the SAR failures. Wouldn’t that be the shits, though? Imagine having that nasty sociopath, who has already come up with recommendations that would save more lives in one season that any of you sorry-ass blatherers will save in your entire existence on the planet, do the rest of your work for you. So come on, children, do something — anything — useful. I’m waiting.

  406. mapper says:

    Kyle,

    yes, I see this the same way but hadn’t even thought of that. Just another way to get confused, of the many possibilities. I used to do databases for emergency 911 call center’s and the naming convention of the road is very important to keep everyone on the same page, and its suprising sometimes how many different people can call one road something different. But when a call comes in, it has to match to the database…..

    though, they are not quite that far yet (I dont think)! just another way the naming convention of the road, if its not well understood and standard it can get sticky.

    I guess, a traveller from out of the area would see the signs almost the same way a computer would….no previous history, no background, no opinion. It needs to make sense.

  407. Kip says:

    nice tribute to James Kim starting 42:15 this InDigital podcast

  408. Paul says:

    412 / Lisa – see my post 383, I re-watched the CNN video and froze framed it the times they showed the signs and copied it down verbatim.

  409. glenn says:

    (417) Thanks a lot for the link Kip…that was well worth watching. He had so much going for him and such an amazing future…just so very sad it had to end so early for him.

  410. Susan says:

    413, Kyle, that is an excellent point. I agree, that makes the most sense, you articulated it very well.

  411. Paul says:

    413 Kyle: I can’t remember if there are signs that say “Gold Beach” on I-5, I don’t remember any. I do know Bear Camp is a definite hard left off of Galice Rd. and that the snow warning signs start a bit after you are on Bear Camp. When I say Bear Camp I am referring to the entire stretch from where you leave Galice Rd. all the way to Agness, which is how most of the locals reference it.

  412. Lisa says:

    Re: 413 Kyle

    Thanks for the quotes about the signs. I don’t know
    what the signs say at the exit. My impression from all
    the accounts I’ve read is that the Kims probably knew
    they were going to drive Bear Camp Road after they missed
    the other road and that:

    1)If they were able to see the signs, they assumed that it was too early in the year for the road to be blocked by snow drifts. They probably thought those signs were for the upcoming winter.

    2)If they were unable to see the signs it was because when they got into the higher altitudes it started to snow very
    heavily. Unfortunately, we do not know when the heavy snow
    started in relation to the placement of the signs.

    So that issue is still speculation. Only Kati Kim may
    remember what they were seeing and thinking.

    Re: 413 PacNWer

    You don’t know. You don’t truly know the course of
    events. So don’t insist that you do.

    You do need to know that I truly do not care what you think. And it is my impression that most of other posters feel similarly.

    So no matter how much you insult, name-call, and
    accuse, etc., etc., ad infitum – I don’t care. It has
    no affect.

    You are full of yourself, and contrary to your wishes,
    you do not affect us the way you hope to, the way you’d
    like to.

    You are not our “puppet master,” and you never will be.

  413. Paul says:

    The primary exit off I-5 for Merlin, Galice and the Galice Rd. is labeled simply “Merlin”…to clarify, NF-23 and Bear Camp road are distinct and different from Galice Rd and require a left turn to get onto. Zoom in on one of the map services and you’ll see it.

  414. PacNWer says:

    Lisa, like the other James Kim hero worshippers here, you have added absolutely, positively nothing to the solution to reduce the likelihood of repeats of what happened. What’s more, you have no interest in doing so.

    You would rather that a negligent, neglectful, irresponsible set of parents be humored rather than their behavior analyzed and held forth as an example not to follow. Doing so would save lives, but it would hurt some feelings. Screw the lives, right Lisa?

  415. tara says:

    I found this at wikipedia.com the “definition” of bear camp road.

    “Bear Camp Road is a rugged mountain road traversing the Southern Oregon Coast range in Josephine and Curry counties. Bear Camp Road is a combination of BLM Road 34-8-36 (Galice Rd) starting just south of Galice and Forest Service Road 23 which continues from the 12 mile point on 34-8-36 to Agness. The road is named for a camp and viewpoint at the 4,600 foot summit near the Josephine/Curry county line.”

    did we already establish it was the combination of roads?

  416. glenn says:

    (426) I wonder how much of that information was there before this incident…

  417. tara says:

    considering theres an entry for James Kim, Id say none. But it says he GREW UP in portland oregon.

  418. tara says:

    wonder if hed ever been on Bear Camp Road before.

  419. mapper says:

    Tara,

    yes that has been established. But I think Kyle brings up the point that no matter what the road is, or what it is known as, a traveller will only know what the map says, and if the sign says “bear camp road” and the traveller thinks they are on Galice Road….the traveller doesn’t care if a sign says “bear camp road may be blocked by snow”

  420. tara says:

    I saw that and I think its a very good point.

  421. tara says:

    Perhaps in the suggestions to BLM that needs to be brought up.

  422. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    I liked this….

    “The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account.”
    — Walter Lippmann

  423. glenn says:

    (433) Lippmann has perspective and he doesn’t forget I am not surprised he would have made such an assessment.

    He is lucky his parents emigrated here…if I have the right guy here.

  424. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Walter Lippmann, the son of second-generation German-Jewish parents, was born in New York City on 23rd September, 1889. While studying at Harvard University he became a socialist and was co-founder of the Harvard Socialist Club and edited the Harvard Monthly.

  425. glenn says:

    (435) I thought that was the guy…didn’t he start The New Republic? He died a while back…I don’t remember when.

  426. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Walter Lippmann died on 14th December, 1974.

  427. Maggie says:

    426 – 427 The wikipedia article was created on 12/9/06. See post 48+ on that description vs others.

  428. Lisa says:

    Re: 424 PacNWer

    Yes – I – am – a – James – Kim – worshipping – zombie.
    I – want – James – Kim – to – be – called – a –
    hero – and – therefore – people – will – die.

    Look that is as ridiculous as your characterization
    of this situation. You like black and white polarization.

    Everyone has learned from this situation. Already
    lives will be saved.

    No less lives will be saved for James Kim being referred
    to as heroic or a hero in his devotion for trying to save his family after they got into trouble.

    It’s not like people are going to drive recklessly into
    snowy mountain areas and say, “I want to be a hero like
    James Kim…” Come on, you know better than that.

    James Kim is not being called a hero for the mistakes
    which got them into trouble, and everyone knows that.

    It’s like you’re just stuck on a technicality you can’t
    get over. And you should know that you’re not going to
    be able to change the opinion most people have – around the
    world – because this story became a news item around
    the world.

    You can always have your opinion. But your mission will
    not be accomplished. You are out numbered by people who felt for this family, and were moved by this story. James Kim met tragedy and made phenomenal efforts in the face of it. That’s how heros are made. If he had just sat in the car, he would not be regarded as much as a hero. He would probably be commended for making the best of their situation.

    But then there would be the ‘haters’ and their ensuing
    diatribes. [diatribe - def. - "a bitter, abusive criticism
    or denunciation." - Webster's]

    We are all working on ideas to try to help stop repeat
    situations. We have not added absolutely positively nothing. Just because you try to minimize everything to
    the lowest common denominator, doesn’t mean it’s true.

    But most importantly, I don’t care if you think I’ve contributed in any way or not. I’m not playing by your
    rules, you are. You can dictate the value of what everyone
    does in your little world, but not in ours. In ours, it
    is just your opinion… And it doesn’t hold as much
    weight as you want it to.

    Now please don’t have a tantrum – because that won’t help
    you get your way.

    Your opinion is allowed to be important in your world.
    But don’t insist that it’s important in ours.

    Really, I don’t want a negative relationship with you.
    But these things are true. It’s your perspective, but
    you can’t force it on other people.

  429. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    429 Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.

  430. Kyle says:

    Re: 421. Paul: Thanks for the info. It sounds like the warning signs about snowdrifts come after you’ve turned off Galice Road onto Bear Camp Road. But are the names of the roads clearly marked so that outsiders not familiar with the area realize they are on Bear Camp Road? It seems that outsiders might not realize that the warning signs about snowdrifts on Bear Camp Road refer to the road they are on and instead assume that they refer to some offshoot they should avoid. It would be helpful if the signs said “THIS ROAD may be blocked by snowdrifts,” or better yet, “This road is closed in winter and unsafe in snow or rain.”

  431. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Lets put it this way, I have lived here since 1959 and hunted that whole country up there for many years icluding this year and the road signs are lousy. I will wager when all said and done you will see better signage up there and down in the valley.

  432. Gayle says:

    Maybe some of these sign change suggestions should be relayed to…

    http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120606_news_camp_road.25238b1.html

    …Burel said the Forest Service and BLM wanted like to hear from the public about what they think should be done with Bear Camp Road and the spur roads off of it.

    They can call Patty Burel at the US Forest Service in Medford at (541) 858-2200.

  433. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Gayle, Thank you for the info, I will give them my suggestions.
    443 This link about the gate crap makes me sick. I will say it again and again THAT GATE HAS NEVER BEEN LOCKED.

  434. Paul says:

    The snow signs are on Bear Camp. The turn off TO Bear Camp from the Galice Rd. is marked reasonably well. Signage once you get up onto Bear Camp is pretty pathetic as Bob H. states, but the snow signs are pretty straightforward and all but impossible to miss.

  435. Paul says:

    Bob R-

    Having the perspective of someone who knows and who has lived in the area is invaluable, thanks for joining us and contributing….BLM may not like what you have to say, but it needs to be heard.

  436. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Paul, you must know the area also?

  437. joeduck says:

    Wow – quite the discussion here!

    I think for the new blog that will focus on SAR cases specifically I may need to find ways to keep personal stuff separate – it makes it harder to stick to the facts though it also has made the conversation pretty lively. I think this Kim case is unique in many ways though and probably this discussion is also … unique!

    D.H. thanks for the apology. FYI I’m registered at the Mailtribune forum as well as Joe Duck, not Joe.

    Nice to see Bob Hollenbeck here – I think he’s the only person here who has been in the Big Windy Drainage and I was hoping he’d share any ideas he has about how long he thinks it took James Kim to hike down to where he was found.

    RE: The I-5 Exit sign at Merlin, I’m pretty sure, does NOT mention the coast and says simply “Merlin”. Somebody suggested earlier they may have left I-5 at Hugo but I think an interview with Kati said it was Merlin exit.

  438. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Joseph, that is a tough question to answer about how long it took him to get almost to the bottom of the canyon. If everybody would look at the 12 pictures, #8 I believe it shows how rough that drainage is. You can see some rock cliffs in the creek area. I would venture to say from the County Line Road down to where they found him maybe a day. By this time I would say he was pretty weak so he moved pretty slow. That canyon is so brushy and steep. (thats why I hunt out there every year, lots of game)

  439. joeduck says:

    Bob do you go down into that same canyon and hike down along the creek or stay up on the higher ground usually?

  440. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    I always stay on the high ground, like I said it’s to brushy. I have been down to Black Bar and fished down river from the Lodge and it’s rough hiking down along the river. Huge boulders, and lots of rattle snakes, see them in the summertime only.

  441. joeduck says:

    Bamadad – your comment 355 went into moderation automatically (I think due to having many links which can trigger a filter) and I just approved it. Note I removed the signature line that said “The Joe Duck blog” to avoid confusion even though I understand what you meant there.

    Since your long comment is now so far up feel free to repost and I’ll try to approve it faster.

  442. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    This next year when I go out there hunting I am going to take a vehile that has Onstar and try it out and see if I can get out when you push the emergency button.

  443. Paul says:

    449 Bob-
    Know it well, but not as well as you, I live in PDX, but have run the Rogue probably 30 to 35 times over the last 25 years…have also run the Illinois once. Have been over Bear Camp too many times, when I first started traversing it, it was almost all gravel, and not very good gravel at that. It is a spectacularly beautiful place, I love the Rogue River and the surrounding area.

  444. Bob Hollenbeck says:

    Paul, your right it is a beautiful place. My dad hunted bear back in the 60s all over that country. But just think they did it at night time with bear dogs. I tell you what, I would never hunt it at night, not those steep canyons! :)

  445. Maggie says:

    Bamadad – looks like your 355 post is there now and also in 305 as well. Now I see why you mentioned it. What a great letter as a sample to send.

    Joe – thank you for getting those posts unmoderated. I did notice, though, that while the name of your blog was removed from the the 355 post, it is still on the 305 post. Thought I’d mention in case you’d like to remove the signature on that one as well.

  446. joeduck says:

    Bob – thanks, really interesting.

    Paul – Sorry not to answer your question about how locals are feeling about the story, the fact is I don’t really have a feel for that yet.

    The quick answer, just from my perspective, is that locally the story is seen as “over” and there are not any big conerns about the management of the SAR effort.
    Saw a small bit on news (Mon night I think) with the Sheriff suggesting the Oregonlive/Oregonian story was unfair.

    I’ve only talked to a few friends about this but frankly I don’t think it struck the same chord here that it did elsewhere.

  447. Paul says:

    457 Bob: Yes, that is something I’ve tried to convey throughout, how brutal bushwacking through that drainage must have been. I have tried, “tried” being the operative word, to hike up some of the side creeks and streams whilst rafting the Rogue (though not B.W.)…blackberry, poison oak, boulders as big as cars or bigger in places…truthfully I’ve never made it too far up any of them…so when I think about James, starving, wet and cold, wearing sneakers slogging 5+ miles down that drainage, I just shake my head in wonderment. Incredible.

  448. Paul says:

    459 / Joe – Thanks, appreciate the comments on the local perception, it’s interesting. Hope I didn’t offend anyone with my comments on rural vs city / Willamette Valley vs the rest of the state.

  449. Maggie says:

    Bob, I would really be interested to hear if Onstar would work out that way. I keep thinking some summer I’d like to drive down (I live in Portland) to see the Redwoods, so it would be the perfect time to check out the Rogue River while I’m out that way. It sounds like Bear Camp Road can be tough even in the summer, so I don’t know whether I’d really plan on trying to take it (definitely not in my Mustang), but I might at least go down it a bit to get an idea.

    Paul, your description of the terrain grabs me every time. Definitely different from a stroll through a typical forest preserve or going a little off the path. I don’t get how he did it either, other than sheer determination.

    Joe, thanks for sharing what’s going on locally. I wondered if there would be more of an outrage or even less with proximity, but that sounds about like out this way.

  450. RobZ says:

    Re: 305/355 bamadad – I’m sorry that I am not reading this blog every hour. ;-) But I did read your post. I tend to be a bit slow and deliberate in my thinking, so in my mind I am not quite up Bear Camp Road and certainly not to the SAR effort. As you can see in my post 294, in my mind I am still on the road between Roseburg and Galice.

    The more I think about the official state map published by ODOT (and other maps), the more I think the map was the start of the tragedy, although by no means the only problem. The official state map is intended for tourism, for people visiting from out of state, right? One could expect that roads on this “official” map meet some sort of basic standards, i.e., are intended for general use.

    Obviously, Bear Camp Road isn’t intended for “general” use, certainly not at all in the “winter” (which probably extends from November through April) and not even in the summer for the casual traveler. I’d say that Bear Camp Road (and roads like it) are intended for 1) logging, 2) sporting men and women who are looking for adventure, for example, rafting the Rogue, and 3) people with local knowledge. Thus Bear Camp Road shouldn’t have been on that map. (And, no, the “close in winter” disclaimer isn’t enough, as the road was neither closed nor was it winter.)

    I don’t have a specific recommendation, yet, but I am leaning towards something like the following: If a road doesn’t meet some basic level of usability, safety, signage, and emergency service, then it doesn’t belong on an official state map, nor as a recommended or shown route on any general-purpose printed or online map.

    On the other hand, such a road does belong on BLM and USFS maps, topo maps, and other similar specialized maps used by people who are looking to go into rugged areas.

    The point is that seeing a solid bold line from Merlin to Gold Beach on an official state map sets up certain expectations, and what one sees and encounters afterwards are filtered through those expectations. I can imagine the Kims getting increasingly nervous as they went up Bear Camp Road: No other traffic. Dark. Limited visibility. Warning signs. But it was getting late and they were, what?, only an hour or so from the coast. So close to a nice warm bed at their reserved lodge. The kids are tired and crying. At what point do the warnings get to be strong enough that one makes a choice that, the official state map be damned, this road isn’t a through road and it is time to turn around? And what if by the time you reach that point of turning around, it is too late to do so?

    Again, my hunch is that if the gate had been locked, they would have continued on NF-23 and possibly made it through or, more likely, gotten stuck or turned around. But because the gate was open, they probably continued on before the warning signs were strong enough, thinking they were on the right road and that if they just pushed on everything would be ok.

    P.S. For part 2 of my route analysis, I am trying to get hour-by-hour weather data to get a sense of what the snow level was. The topo maps will provide elevations, and also show all the side roads. If those with local knowledge could help fill in other details – for example, where the signs are and what they say – I think we can get a pretty accurate idea of this part of their journey. Of course, there is going to be some guess work. For example, it is still uncertain whether the Kims got to where they stopped their car via BLM 34-8-36 or via some other road that looped back, as some have suggested.

  451. RodneyG says:

    Kyle 415 and replies. Yes, I agree. I hadn’t even thought of that until I read the reference yesterday, which is why I asked about the exact wording.

    Paul, thanks for the info on the signs. I understand they are impossible to miss. But the point being made is that if you don’t know that you are on Bear Camp Road (or even NF-23), then you don’t know that the signs are talking about the road you are on.

    I’m not even talking about the Kims and whether they had any doubt whether the warning signs applied to the road they were on. The general point is: Unless it is clear to travellers that they are on “Bear Camp Road” and/or “NF-23″, those gigantic impossible-to-miss warning signs can certainly be misinterpreted by intelligent people.

  452. RodneyG says:

    RobZ, do you have Google Earth? It has built in elevation info that seems reasonably accurate. Might be helpful for you as you try to guess what roads they were going up and down in the BLM network (after missing the fork). For *me* anyway, that is easier than looking at topo maps.

  453. bamadad says:

    RobZ (464) exactly. very well said.
    RobZ, Bob, Navi, Susan, Paul, RodG

    My training is as an Army Ranger and although I am 3000 miles away, I can see the Oregon map and its indications of straight shot (though mindful of surrounding high elevations.) So without other knowledge, I would have exited I-5, ……but as I have said from watching the videos and photos, hope I would have turned back as soon as Bear Camp narrowed to one lane. (Night time, fuel, distance to travel, weather, family aboard, my own long experience in winter in Colorado and the Alps, etc., count as well) But who is to judge, we have all taken risky shortcuts. That is when I sighed, “Oh, my God” at what the Kims put themselves thru.

    The intersection further up is a test as well. If I got that far “up the creek”, so to speak, I would have to get out of the car, stand in front of it with a flashlight and figure it out. Then again, I carry a compass in the glovebox.

    European countries, have signs which show the main route via a heavier black curve and the lesser road with fainter lines/curves on a yellow triangle route marker. European roads are full of these intersections where the main route looks like a cowpath and the side road looks like a boulevard. Built up areas have dozens of these signs to show the main route thru a city. They work well and you can zip right thru.

    I am thankful Bob is back, with local knowledge and great, measured judgment. BTW, I also sighed when I saw that Big Windy drainage on the posted topo map, those contour lines are so close together at a few points–meaning likely cliffs on either side of the stream, which reportedly is neck deep in spots. That is rugged. He made amazing progress. Hallucinations given his status were certainly possible. peace to you, fella.

    Anyway I hope several of you, if you want, will grab what you want of CMT 305 and send it out. Add your name without the JD Blog signature.

  454. bamadad says:

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166585109174210.xml&coll=7&thispage=2

    pertinent part:

    Governor weighs in

    A spokeswoman said Gov. Ted Kulongoski plans to take a hard look at the “after incident” reports on recent search and rescue missions in Oregon to “identify whether there are gaps in the system.”

    “It’s too premature to speculate now,” said Anna Richter Taylor, the governor’s communications director. But Kulongoski will look at whether the state needs to play a bigger role in covering the cost of searches and in ensuring communication among the agencies involved.

    This is a good sign.

  455. bamadad says:

    Joe, your CMT 454. Thanks. Hope some posters here ship out CMT 305 as they see fit… or cut and paste it with the other ideas here.

    Can you tell how many folks visit your blog each day? What was the range from the highest to lowest over the last weeks? This is my first time taking more than a casual interest in a blog and participating. Whatever the number, it has been a good experience and I thank you.

  456. Paul says:

    4 letters to the editor in the Oregonian today (don’t have link at moment, read them in the paper – see OregonLive), on the article that ran Sunday. 2 are critical of SARs oversight, 1 is critical of the Kims, and the last falls somewhere in between. They echo the range of opinions we have seen here.

  457. Gayle says:

    I have a question I haven’t seen anyone else address here or elsewhere…
    On Sat morning after James left on foot for help, Kati is reported to have said she heard a heliocopter 1-2 hours later and failed when trying to signal it. How far away at that point was James and could he have heard it, too? My guess is he was still on the road. I am guessing he did not hear it since he didn’t turn around and return to the car to assist in signaling should another be heard. If he heard them while in the drainage area, was there any evidence he attempted to signal? How far does sound travel in the mountains?

  458. Susan says:

    (450) Joe, I noticed when I was on that mountain climbing site, they had a whole area just for “venting”, like those that wanted to get nasty could and those that didn’t want to read that sort of stuff could just stay away from that area. Personally, I like this format. There’s only one person trying to rile everyone up, and he’s very good at it. Actually much better at it than we are at ignoring him. So I’m assuming since he seems to suck all of us in sooner or later, we don’t really mind him that much. I’ve got used to him, you don’t really needt to read it anymore, he never says anything new, same story, same insults, and it gets the conversation very lively.

  459. glenn says:

    (470,471) Thanks for the heads up and the links. I read through the editorials…interesting about placing blame. I think that is right where everybody gets off the track.

    I don’t think this is about placing blame…I think it about elevating the mistakes, issues, etc to the surface so that it can be corrected for the future.

    For some people they think the blames falls soley on the Kim’s and because they made a mistake in the first place any other mistakes that follow don’t matter – everyone should get a free pass…after all if he didn’t make that initial mistake in the first place, etc…

    That is the part of the equation that I find so very odd. Some want to forget that these are PAID professionals supposedly doing a job and a pretty important job where lives are at stake.

    Should a paid professional who makes a series of mistakes be allowed to continue making those mistakes in the future?

    I have been asking a lot of people this question lately…if you were lost and/or a family member needed a SAR effort would you want Sarah Rubrecht coordinating the effort?

    The one thing that is for certain in this sad story – James Kim will never make this mistake again.

    Isn’t it time someone put a stop to the mistakes that Sarah Rubrecht has made?

  460. joeduck says:

    bamadad – first, thanks for several interesting insights.

    RE: Blog stats: I do get stats from WordPress and they show a huge increase in traffic which then subsided and went back up in part due to the Mount Hood missing climber tragedy.

    Usually the blog would have 100 people per day up to about 200-300 if I’m blogging a technology conference, but in the days leading up to finding the Kims it went up very fast.

    These are rounded to nearest 100 and don’t include the RSS ‘feeds’ which might add another 20-50 per day or so.

    Dec 1: 200
    Dec 2: 400
    Dec 3: 1300
    Dec 4: 4400
    Dec 5: 9400
    Dec 6: 21700
    Dec 7: 17100
    Dec 8: 10600
    Dec 9: 5000
    Dec10: 3900
    Dec11: 4500
    Dec12: 4800
    Dec13: 3500
    Dec14: 2700
    Dec15: 2400
    Dec16: 1800
    Dec17: 3000
    Dec18: 3700
    Dec19: 3400

    I’d guess it’ll go down a lot as media interest in the two Oregon stories goes away.

  461. D.H. says:

    Mr. Bob Hollenbeck, Peter Sleeth would like to talk to you about the info in posts #836 & #442. “Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.” Perhaps you could call him or email him at petersleeth@news.oregonian.com
    I saw your posts here and emailed Peter, he emailed me back and he seems interested in this info, if you wish to contact him.

    Peter Sleeth, Reporter
    The Oregonian
    1320 S.W. Broadway
    Portland, Ore. 97201
    503.294.4119

  462. PacNWer says:

    A report on a different website generates another question for Mrs. Kim to answer if she should ever choose to grant a candid interview to a real journalist, i.e., one who asks all the relevant questions:

    10. Had you or your husband ever taken the Bear Camp Road route in the past?

  463. PacNWer says:

    Oops, I guess it’s not a different website. It’s this website. I stand corrected. I looked and didn’t see it here, but didn’t look hard enough. One more reason I shouldn’t be on an SAR team.

  464. PacNWer says:

    If that report is true — a big if, considering the ability of rumors to circulate — it would cast a very different light on why the Kims were on Bear Camp Road that night, would it not?

  465. PacNWer says:

    Bob Hollenbeck (#442), I hope you can provide verification for what you wrote. That claim is highly relevant and would be quite damaging to the Kims if true. False rumors are so easy to get started in situations like this, as I’m sure you know. I hope you’ll contact the reporter at the Oregonian and help him investigate the claim’s accuracy.

  466. PacNWer says:

    Bob, when you say “family members down South,” do you mean Kim family members in San Francisco?

  467. Paul says:

    442 / 476: There are all kinds of tangents to consider IF they had been on BC before, but probably the most important, and the reason I question that assertion is:

    – They would KNOW it is no short-cut. It would beg the question why they wouldn’t just turn around after they missed the Hwy 42 exit near Roseburg and backtrack. It is a solid hour, minimum, from Roseburg to the Merlin turn off. There are several exits where you could get off the freeway and head back the other way reasonably soon.

    Anyone who has taken BC to Gold Beach knows it a very stressful, winding, twisting road / knows it is remote / knows it goes up quite high….even in summer that is obvious. Highway 42 is not that much faster, but it is by far a better route. I can’t imagine that anyone who HAD been over BC would CHOOSE it as their route late in the evening with small kids in the back.

  468. PacNWer says:

    Bob made a very specific statement, and it ought to be checkable by a third party or otherwise verifiable. If the Kims had been on Bear Creek Road in the past, then Mrs. Kim’s story to police and others about how and why they got there on Nov. 25th would fall apart.

    If Bob’s story is true, even the diehards would drop out of the Hero Club.

  469. PacNWer says:

    Oh, and from Roseburg to Gold Beach is 4 hours via Hwy. 42 and four hours via Bear Camp Road, in good weather. Therefore, if the Kims intentionally used Bear Camp Road, the great irony is that it never would have been a time-saver anyhow.

    If they’d actually been on the road in the past and still used it, as opposed to simply picking it off the map (in Roseburg, not afterwards, is what I suspect), then we could add that to the heap of their misjudgments.

    But, again, at the moment Bob Hollenbeck has done nothing other than offer an intriguing story. Nail it down, Bob.

  470. joeduck says:

    Several people have asked why they’d keep going as the road conditions worsened. I still think the following scenario is very possible since Kati said they “turned around” and thought they were just 4 miles from Galice after they stopped the car:

    They headed up on NF23

    They turned around on NF23 when they realized the conditions were too dangerous to keep going.

    Now heading back EAST on NF23, they took the wrong turn and headed left on the logging road. (or perhaps they tried to turn back at that logging road NF23 junction and got confused about which way they’d come up).

    They continue for so many miles down the logging road because they thought they were heading DOWN and back to Galice the same way they came up.

  471. PacNWer says:

    joe (#487), I’m not sure that makes logical sense. If they were eastbound on NF23, they’d have had to do another 180-degree (or close to it) turn to go down the spur. That couldn’t have been inadvertent.

    Similarly, if they had tried to turn around at the junction, there were two westbound choices and one eastbound choice. Even in the snow, a 180-degree turn is a 180-degree turn. There’d have been only one path for them to take. Again, not inadvertent.

    I say that they either inadvertently took the logging road while going westbound, or purposely used that path after having retreated while on Bear Camp Road.

    Unless Kati Kim gives a candid interview to a reporter who will ask all of the pertinent questions without fear or favor, we’re probably not going to know. I’m not sure it matters too terribly much; it would be a footnote at best.

    If Hollenbeck’s story winds up being true, that would overshadow all of this. Even if his story can’t be verified, with respect to the Kims the main event is their ever having been on Bear Camp Road to begin with. It was negligent and irresponsible, probably an outgrowth of the sunk-cost fallacy that I mentioned in prior postings here and elsewhere.

    Or, as a different poster put it, “get-there-itis,” a dangerous phenomenon occasionally seen among aviators.

  472. Paul says:

    #487 – Joe: I can’t provide link proof on this because KGW does not still have the video up, or at least I can’t find it, but I watched the entire long press conf by the OSP after they de-briefed Kati. My memory is that she said they BACKED down Bear Camp when the realized they were in trouble. They could not get turned around because of the snow. Several posters have alluded to James having the door open going forward, which makes no sense, opening the door does not improve visibility in a blizzard, but it is often a necessity and/or improves visibility when backing up.

    I am less clear on why, in her account, they turned down the road they were found on. IF they were able to back-down BC why would you not just keep doing that. It is such a steep grade that it would not be long before you would drop below the snow line….that and you know you are headed back to civilization. Perhaps they thought it might lead to Galice, but why would you take a chance on that in an unfamiliar area with snow coming down hard and kids in the back ? There’s elements to her account that I can’t make sense of.

  473. Paul says:

    If anyone can find a link to the lengthy press conf by OSP after they de-briefed Kati Kim please pass it along.

  474. PacNWer says:

    Paul (489), the reason they didn’t take the sure route back is probably because then they’d have had to stay in a Motel 6 in Roseburg or Grant’s Pass, and that’s no place for a hero.

  475. glenn says:

    (489) (487) obviously they were very lost and confused. The weather conditions deteriorating, etc. They probably figured by continuing to drive around they were just worsening their situation so they stopped and hoped that daylight would provide the information they needed to get out of there or that is they were on the road they thought they were on they had to figure somebody would be driving by sooner or later.

    All of this of course is pure speculation. Not sure what purpose this really serves unless someone is preparing for a lawsuit and if that is the case then this information will come out anyway in depositions, etc.

    I think everyone agrees that the signage can be improved, that maps need to be made clearer (both print and online) and of course wiki keeps getting more information.

    The other lessons that can be learned directly from the Kim’s is trip preparedness…everyone should take time to think about the risks of any road trip and do as much to prepare as possible…with all of our gadgets and convenience we just tend to go with the flow and always think we can get out of anything we can get ourselves into. We live in a pretty cruel place and it is up to all of us to learn from this.

  476. Maggie says:

    489 – Paul, the only thing that’s made sense to me is that they maybe only thought that they were on Bear Camp Road but actually took that right onto BLM 34-8-36 at the fork, thinking it was Bear Camp Road. As the road twists and sometimes loops, maybe they backed up off of one of the additional spurs off of BLM 34-8-36 but somehow wound up back on it in in the wrong direction in sheer confusion. Since they were so desperately lost, I doubt that Kati would be able to accurately recall which roads they took. I doubt we will ever know for certain.

  477. Paul says:

    493 – that theory continues to intrigue me and seems plausible, esp after you look at the pictures of that junction and how poorly signed it is. I’ve never been down that particular road so I can’t say how that jibes with Kati’s account of backing down BC.

  478. glenn says:

    (487), (489) Someone should drive up there and try to re-trace their steps. In the dark preferrably and under good clear conditions. They should has GPS and navigation technology with them to make sure they can get back out.

    It would be good if two people took the time and tried to recreate why they made their choices and what led them to the spot where they ended up.

  479. Lisa says:

    Re: 451 Bob

    I really want to thank you for all your knowledge and
    information. It is so important and helpful to have
    your and Joe’s local perspectives.

    I wanted to ask you, given what you said about James’
    progress in the canyon. What you thought about why it
    why so slow going for the SAR and they were able to
    make so little progress. Here is a quote from one of
    them:

    “‘I’m amazed,’ searcher Robert Graham told reporters. ‘We spent hours down there and made very little distance. … The conditions were very rough. It’s been cold. The terrain is so rugged, just spending one day out here is very exhausting.'”["Coroner: Kim died of exposure, hypothermia"
    CNN]

    The only people who got anywhere near him on the first
    full search day were those coming from the Rogue River.
    They said that they got within about a half mile of
    where he was found. But they were blocked by the cliffs.

    Re: 456, 463 Paul, Maggie

    I live in Portland too. Nice to know you guys are around.

    Re: 468 Barnadad

    Yes, I think that’s a great idea too. I heard Kulongoski
    talking about it yesterday on public radio. He said then
    SAR efforts wouldn’t be so dependent on individual counties, and their ability to handle it. Excellent idea.

    Re: 474 Glenn

    I agree.

    Re: 484 PacNWer

    To the contrary on two counts. It is possible that if
    the Kims had presumably traveled both Bear Camp and Highway
    42 before in better weather, and knew that there was
    ultimately not much of a difference time wise, they
    may not have realized just how much more difficult Bear
    Camp would be, as opposed to Highway 42. It is possible
    that even with the warning signs they thought it might
    be better maintained, or it was too early in the season
    for it to be blocked.

    Also, I do not technically belong in your “Hero Club.”
    Because although I do think James Kim’s efforts were
    extremely heroic, I do not and would not go around
    worshipping him as a hero.

    I think he was a very good man, a precious man, a very
    honorable man. I don’t at all think he deserved the fate that befell him.

    Here is a quote from one of his friends who knew him well:

    “The point is this. During his life, everyone who knew him felt the considerable warmth of James Kim, who died alone in the cold. Nothing could be less fair.”

    http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,72253-0.html?tw=rss.index

    My main disagreement with your treatment of James Kim is
    this:

    It’s not right to reduce people to the mistakes they made.

    In this instance, James Kim and his family do not deserve
    to be trashed, bashed, and insulted.

    Everyone has learned from their mistakes. The general,
    most important lessons from their mistakes are easy to learn from.

    You don’t need to go over them again, and again, and again, bashing them everytime. That is not helpful. That is not
    constructive.

    That boils down to just bashing, trashing, and insulting
    people who just went through a horrific tragedy.

    And really what they were doing and the mistaken choices
    they made were a lot more innocent and confusing than
    driving down the highway at 92 miles an hour like you did.

    The way you are going about it, you are really only teaching
    people that you like to trash people.

  480. Maggie says:

    495 – Glenn, I’ve thought about doing that as a detour part of a trip I’m hoping to take down to the Redwoods, but until I know more about how that road is in the summer, I’m still a bit leery (and definitely wouldn’t try it in the useless Mustang that I have). It’s not impossible (but maybe not likely?) that they took the another route to get to the same place, as I posted back on the old page (again, this was just a possible route I traced in Google Earth to get to the same place, and I’m not even saying this is it – just interesting/possible):

    If I had the time, the right vehicle, just enough guts and an over abundance of supplies, I might try both just to see.

  481. Paul says:

    #496 You go girl !! Well said.

  482. RodneyG says:

    On google maps, 34-8-36 is labelled as 34-8-36 until the spot the car was found. If (IF!) there is any signage at all in the BLM maze, it’s possible they were just staying on 34-8-36, since that is what the road is apparently called before the infamous fork at NF23.

    Now, once they are on the BLM maze, there are any number of ways, depending on various forks they took, to arrive at the final spot. But it seems very possible to me that they followed (either by signs or by luck) 34-8-36 all the way to the final spot, went past it on one or the other spurs from there, eventually “backing down” one of those spurs and returning to the final spot.

    As I’ve said, we’ll probably never know, regardless of what Kati says, but I’m guessing they missed the fork at NF23, and all tales after that happened in the BLM maze.

  483. RodneyG says:

    If you haven’t looked at google maps in map mode (not satellite mode), I encourage you to do so. It is very easy to see what a maze it is in the BLM, and see there are many many ways for them to get where they did.

    And as I said earlier, google earth has elevation info if you care to try to figure out where they went “up” and backed “down”.

  484. Maggie says:

    499 – Rodney, that’s been my hunch exactly. I’ll never know.

    Here’s another photo of the area that I found:

    By This Time, We Were Sick of Driving on Windy (Curvy) Roads

  485. Paul says:

    499 – and when you look at those BLM roads on Google Maps it truly is a maze !!! It looks like somebodys science experiment gone bad.

  486. Lisa says:

    Re: 484 PacNWer

    I want to clafify – it good to discuss details
    of what may or may not have happened, in order
    to learn and help determine where improvements
    could be made.

    It is a different thing – to just trash everyone
    involved in this discussion including us – and
    even more so the Kims – who have suffered so horribly
    and severely.

    Your discourse so far today has been honorable
    towards us, and that is respectable and commendable,
    the exception being your willingness to trash the Kims again so eagerly over whether they had or had not used
    Bear Camp before.

  487. Gayle says:

    Pics taken in the midst of the search… Some how the road areas being discussed.

    http://www.kval.com/news/local/4836996.html

  488. Lisa says:

    Re: 503 typos

    I wanted to resubmit that first line:

    I want to clarify – it is good to discuss details

  489. Spencer says:

    Well, what can’t be accomplished by man has been accomplished by nature. No one will be taking this route again this winter… The BLM portion of the road has been closed due to a rock slide.

    http://www.mailtribune.com/update/update.html#road

    Interesting the mention of gates though :)

  490. Heather says:

    Not sure if you’ve all seen the latest news that rock slides have closed the Galice access road. . . so for those of us who drive that route. . . it’s back to the detours.

    http://www.mailtribune.com/update/update.html#road

  491. glenn says:

    (506), (507) Some might say devine intervention…

  492. Paul says:

    That has been a recurring problem on that road for years.

  493. Gayle says:

    Re: 489 (re: 487) The videos on KGW are here…

    http://www.kgw.com/blcS.sc?search=James+Kim&cat=multi

  494. tara says:

    these are the longest craziest links EVER but they have some pictures of Big Windy Creek. The first link actually has a rogue river photo album. Scroll through the images and if my memory is right there is a picture of Little Windy Creek also.

    THe second link is someones personal blog with a photo at the very bottom from a “canyoneering” trip. here is what the writer days about the Big WIndy Creek:
    “Next we continued downstream to Big Windy Creek, where Kate led a canyoneering expedition to freeze the boyscouts into submission :) Canyoneering, by the way, involves equal parts climbing/scrambling/bouldering and swimming in fresh snowmelt. Fortunately, the weather remained hot. As an endnote to the expedition, all scouts and scouters plunged from the Big Windy jump rock into the Rogue, which felt dreamily warm compared to Big Windy’s icy waters.”

    it kinda explains that they had to get into the water, and is the Big WIndy Jump rock perhaps the wall that stopped the SAR volunteers from going UP the drainage?

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wildrogue.com/pages/images/32_jpg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wildrogue.com/pages/32_jpg.htm&h=324&w=432&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=5ggr-3D2V8zpyM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbig%2Bwindy%2Bcreek%2Boregon%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLR,GGLR:2005-52,GGLR:en%26sa%3DN

    http://listening-for-water.blogspot.com/2006/06/first-trip-june-2nd-5-day-rogue-river.html

  495. Gayle says:

    This link takes you to the Oregon State Police news releases. Scroll down to the right dates to see what they say in the Kim case.

    http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1002

  496. Heather says:

    Has anyone here looked into why Google Maps started showing the BC route this summer??

  497. Lisa says:

    Here is the written form of the part of the final press
    conference where they include the information they
    say Kati gave them:

    “The family became stranded after turning onto Bear Camp Road, a narrow and winding route over the mountains from Grants Pass. They had taken the road after missing the turnoff on Interstate 5 for state Highway 42 in Roseburg, which would have taken them to Coos Bay.

    Hastings addressed several mysteries that have arisen in the saga, attributing his information to Kati Kim. She has not spoken to the media since being rescued.

    ‘Once on Bear Camp Road, the Kims made a wrong turn onto a logging road and the weather worsened,’ Hastings said. ‘The family noticed signs indicating that the road is often closed in winter weather, and decided they should get out of the area.’

    By that time, it was snowing hard and the car became stuck when they tried to turn around. It took a long time — and a lot of gas — for the Kims to get the car out of the snow, and by then they were concerned they didn’t have enough gas to make it back down the mountain.

    Hastings said the family drove a little farther back up the road, until they found a fork where they stopped. ‘They thought their silver Saab station wagon would be visible there,’ he said.”

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/BAGLKMRFBK7.DTL

    Re: 498 Thanks Paul!

    Re: Everyone else – there are so many posts – that as
    we all know – it is not really possible to respond to
    them all. I just want to say that I do read and appreciate all of them.

  498. Heather says:

    My husband and I use Bear Camp road all summer long to get to Agness. Last summer, the detour around the land slides were finally fixed after having been closed. The road received a significant amount of maintenance and grading. As addicts of the internet, we frequently would “google” map the Agness area and see what directions would come up. We noticed something that we felt was more than a coincidence. The maps at Google changed in June 2006 to reflect a route over Bear Camp, instead of routing passenger traffic over to Crescent City and then up the coast. And then, last summer, we saw scores of folks from out of state driving those back roads. . . and looking rather surprised at the terrain.

    I’ve contacted NavTeq to try to figure out how they get their information but have been unable to get beyond their PR representative. I would be money that something changed with the designation of those roads with the BLM/USF in May of this year. My hunch is that it goes back to money and the ability to change some of designations in order to proceed with logging. Whatever led to the chain of events, the placed Bear Camp in NavTeq’s data base in June of 2006, is likely to repeat itself in another location, as the push and pull for logging on federal lands continues.

  499. Heather says:

    While the Kim’s may not have utilized the online mapping programs, this is a great opportunity to prevent people who DO from getting caught in the politics of the BLM/USF. Any ideas or resources?

    Silly post, I suppose. Hopefully, it doesn’t sound too far out there.

  500. glenn says:

    Quote from the Farmer’s Almanac

    In rivers and bad government the lighest things float to the top…

    Of course Johnny Cash says it better than me…

  501. tara says:

    heather
    thats not silly. I read about, and I will try to find and post, some kind of litigation? recently about Josephine County changing some regulations in order to get logging to continue in that area (so they could continue to get the money. THe changes were illegal.

    Ill go find that info….

  502. Gayle says:

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL

    This article from Dec 4 has more detail from Kati Kim than any other I have found.

  503. mapper says:

    Heather,

    that does not sound out there, I appreciate your thinking. Most importantly people need to know that source data is coming from different companies or governments and what you see on google or mapquest is not always what “is” or portrayed as it “should” be.

    I thought the response to Bob from the Oregon DOT was very telling, in that the route on the state map is not portrayed in a way that makes sense, because its partly a federal road, and its like they dont really know what to do with it on the state map, it creates confusion.

    Anyway, what is the point if kati and james took that road before, so we can print it in the newspaper that james is not a hero? What is the point?

    I understand people trying to retrace their steps to try to understand what went wrong in order to fix it. But, once again, Kati Kim does not owe anyone an explanation. This is not like the Runaway Bride who intentionally disappeared and the community spent thousands trying to find her then lied to people about who kidnapped her.

    It makes no difference if the Kim’s took bear camp before. Locals have said the route is confusing, another person died up there and in the same year a family was lost. Give up your quest pac. No one else is hung up on the word hero because no one else worries about their own worth being tied up with the fact that a stranger is being called one, some imperfect stranger out there that people have the nerve to call brilliant! ouch!

    If kati ever wants to talk to anyone, good for her, but what scares me, so much more than james being called a hero, is why a person out there is so mad about it. Stop the presses “james kim was a human, mistakes were made, some would tender, not charastic of a hero”

    !!??!!??

  504. PacNWer says:

    More ironies for the Hero Club for Men to ponder. The eastern terminus of Bear Creek Road is 8 miles from Grants Pass, OR. Check your Mapquest, my techie children. You’ll see that from Merlin, OR to Gold Beach via Grants Pass and U.S. 199/U.S. 101 is just under 3 hours, while Bear Creek Road is listed at about 2-1/2 hours in good weather.

    Even after missing Hwy. 42, they’d have made better time in the weather conditions that were obvious by looking out the window if they’d just continued to Grant’s Pass and taken 199 to 101 and doubled back from Crescent City. If it turns out that this was the second time they’d been on Bear Creek Road, then they’d have known how punishing a trip they were in for even before they ignored the map legend and the three warning signs.

    I keep forgetting: They’re brilliant heroes and I am a sociopathic idiot. But guess who’s alive?

    As for you Lisa, you’re in the Hero Club for Men. At least admit that much. You absolutely refuse to see what is plainly clear, which is that James and Kati Kim were negligent and irresponsible that night, not to mention just plain blockheaded. They made a series of decisions that can only be characterized as stupid, most likely because they were so intent on getting to that resort that they abandoned their common sense.

    That sort of thing has happened before, and it will happen again. But some honest reporting and dissemination of prudent cautions would almost certainly save lives in the future. You and many others on this website refuse to see it, and your refusal is rooted in your absolute unwillingness to see poor Kati Kim’s feelings hurt.

    Someone’s dead, and two defenseless, vulnerable and dependent children almost died because of her and husband’s negligence. Her feelings are secondary, at best, and yours are irrelevant.

  505. Susan says:

    493, Maggie, I think that makes sense.

  506. glenn says:

    It’s Miller Time!!! LOL

  507. Heather says:

    tara-

    Thanks you for helping to find the information. Last summer, it was crazy on Bear Camp. There were all these little Honda Civics and Acura driving really really slow with people who were so confused. We always stop at the top of Bear Camp Road at the look out. It’s beautiful and a great way to get ready for the REALLY twisty stuff at the end. . .you would be SHOCKED by all the folks who asked us where they were and how much farther to Gold Beach.

    That road is great as a logging road, but not for passenger traffic. There are no signs. It’s easy to get lost. I’m always terrified that someone is just going to drive off the side of the mountain.

    My husband and I talked about this last summer. Someone’s going to get lost and die, now that this road is showing up on Google, etc.

    Let me know if you figure out how the road designation change, tara!!!

  508. Paul says:

    523 – Naaaah, it’s gotta be Old Milwaukie or Old English 800.

  509. glenn says:

    Hero…see post (333) it’s right there in black and white.

    James Kim definitely fulfills one or more of the definitions according to Webster. If someone doesn’t like that they should petition Webster to change it.

    James Kim is a hero by definition.

    Lisa there is no shame in recognizing the definition of the word…and of course I wouldn’t think anyone (with a brain) would go around worshiping anyone. A true hero certainly wouldn’t want that. :)

  510. glenn says:

    (525) Could be thunderbird…for a dolla twenty five!

    Now Paul that is funny.

  511. Paul says:

    A little levity seemed in order…(or maybe it’s Nighttrain)

  512. Lisa says:

    Re: 526 Glenn, 520 Mapper

    I don’t think there’s any shame recognizing the definition
    of the word! I don’t have any problems with people saying
    that James Kim is a hero.

  513. mapper says:

    Lisa, me neither!

  514. Lisa says:

    It more that it wasn’t my main focus and wasn’t something
    I had done… I think there’s truth to it – it’s just not
    the main point for me… And it was being asserted that it
    was in an extreme way.

    I really have the utmost respect and caring for him…

  515. mapper says:

    Lisa,

    Its pacs main point, he thinks we all worship james kim because the media called him a hero, he thinks we are unable to form our own thoughts, and should be outraged by the hero message. If your not outraged by it, he thinks this is your main point.

    you have made many fine points

  516. Lisa says:

    I have to call it a night!

    But I’ll be in checking in later…

  517. Lisa says:

    p.s.

    Thanks mapper!

  518. Marie says:

    Mr. Kim was indeed a great Hero!!
    PacBoy is simply jealous because the Kim family had many people who loved them and joined together to search for them. Pac secretly knows he is not worthy of such affection because he is a sociopath. He wishes he were normal but it is not to be, so the next best thing is to despise those who are loved.

  519. glenn says:

    (529) wink wink nudge nudge

  520. Susan says:

    536, glenn, you are being SO good!

  521. Mickey M. says:

    Into Thin Ozone … Continued

    Revenge of the Luddites !!!
    Did any of you internet microbrains realize that all of this would never have happened if it hadn’t been for that !*#@!@ crappy invention called the Automobile?
    If those unfortunate dimwits had been walking or riding a horse or riding bicycles, by golly, they would never been on that cold road at night or they woulda turned around mighty quick.
    So go ahead, sue Detroit. That’s who to blame.

  522. Kip says:

    What impresses me most about how people conduct their lives is not what they do or what decisions they make but whether they are doing their utmost lovingly best with what is at hand at the moment.

    The sheriff the night he was watching a football game on TV failed that test.

    The stranded James aced it.

  523. tara says:

    kip
    i agree. well said.

  524. Gayle says:

    540… sorry, scroll down to post 826

  525. Susan says:

    536, I’ve already done my amateur psychological analysis (300), and made my peace (473) and I’m now going to follow your excellent example. (I know I promised that before)

  526. glenn says:

    just do a little LOL…seems 2 work 4 me

  527. Susan says:

    544, you are my new HERO, a shining example of self control

  528. Mickey M. says:

    Into Thin Ozone … Chapter III

    Internet Bozos of the World … Unite!

    Next invention of the Internet Bozo hall of fame is… the SLAPPER. (built by the same manufacturer of the CLAPPER)

    The SLAPPER is a remarkable piece of high-tech robotics that adapts seamlessly to the dashboard of most car makes/models. Once the driver enters the precise latitude and longitude coordinates of their destination, the SLAPPER will get you there. Its precision GPS system will trigger the powerful artificial intelligence algorithms built into its digital brain. When the driver makes a wrong turn, the SLAPPER robotic hand will slap the driver once, gently across the face. IF the driver persists in the wrong direction, the SLAPPER will slap the driver more forcefully, and again, until the driver makes a U-Turn.
    Also built into this gadget’s fuzzy logic is the Empty Gas Tank Ear-Pull. The SLAPPER will pull the driver’s ear whenever there is a critical fuel issue.

    Next: More capabilities… to be imagined !!!!

  529. Susan says:

    546, the horse sounds much less confusing. (ps-seriously, I do think you have poetic talent)

  530. Paul says:

    #546 LOL – the sequel

  531. Paul says:

    Glenn ? 546 – Rainier Ale ?

  532. glenn says:

    (549) gotta be crack.

  533. Gayle says:

    546. deleted at Gayle’s request

  534. Susan says:

    551, Gayle, another poet, and you I understand!

  535. Paul says:

    LOL (or maybe meth)

  536. Pingback: Holiday Travel Tips from Oregon State Police « Joe Duck

  537. joeduck says:

    Mickey M I deleted your comment.

  538. Maggie says:

    (554) Always a good reminder, Joe.
    [number edited because posts changed]

  539. Lisa says:

    Oops!

    You’ll probably want to delete mine then,
    which I totally understand. I knew I probably
    shouldn’t have gone there.

  540. joeduck says:

    Sorry Lisa – I messed you up by saying I was leaving it in and then deleting it. Your poem was a clever reply but since it won’t make sense out of context I deleted it.

  541. Lisa says:

    Like I said I totally understand! I don’t think it really
    belongs here. And I think it was a good call that you deleted the first one too.

  542. PacNWer says:

    Marie (535) and kip (539), you’ve been given complimentary memberships in the James & Kati Kim Hero Club for Men & Negligence Denial Society. It comes with an advance copy of Kati’s new book and a share of the proceeds from her Internet tip jar.

    Now, to the peanut gallery, my very favorite idea in this otherwise pretty barren 1,550+ post “discussion” came from the geek whose idea was to put WiMax radios in the forest. By the way, you’re all still batting .000 and showing the world that you’d rather protect Kati’s book and movie deals than actually put out concrete recommendations that would save lives by telling the truth about their stupidity and negligence.

    Congrats, “compassionate” ones!

  543. RobZ says:

    (294 RobZ) This is part 2 of my route analysis. At the end of part 1, the Kims were at the intersection of Galice Rd. and BLM 34-8-36 on the bank of the Rogue River around 10:30 p.m., probably regardless of which I-5 exit they took.

    (450 Joe Duck) You are probably right that they took the Merlin (#61) exit off of I-5. The only time we have gone to this part of the Rogue, my wife and I took the Merlin exit. I remember the Merlin exit being the clearly marked exit to get ot the Rogue.

    But if the Kims stopped for gas, for a bathroom break, or to check a map, then they could have gotten to BLM 34-8-36 closer to 11 p.m.

    QUESTION: I want to check the weather records, but does anyone know if it was snowing on Sexton Mtn. Pass that evening? (A year before when I had to drive down to Grants Pass from Eugene, all the truck traffic and some of the car traffic just stopped in the middle of I-5 on Sexton Mtn. Pass during a fast and heavy snow.)

    So starting from this point to the critical fork between NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36, here is the route:

    — Begin Part 2: Galice to critical fork —
    Starting at juncture of Galice Rd. and BLM 34-8-36

    1. (elev. 740′) Turn left onto BLM 34-8-36 … (follow Galice Creek upriver) – go 0.7 mi, 1% grade

    2. (elev. 790′) Pass Pea Vine Rd. (BLM 35-8-2) on right – go 1.3 mi, 2% grade

    3. (elev. 930′) Pass Chrome Ridge Rd. on left; continue right on BLM 34-8-36 … (follow North Fork Galice Creek upriver) – go 2.2 mi, 5% grade

    4. (elev. 1470′) Pass 4WD road on right – go 1.0 mi, 5% grade

    5. (elev. 1740′) Pass BLM 35-8-5 on right; continue left on BLM 34-8-36 – go 1.7 mi, 10% grade

    6. (elev. 2650′) Pass unimproved road on left; U-turn right – go 0.9 mi, 8% grade

    7. (elev. 3020′) Pass unimproved road on left; continue straight on BLM 34-8-36 – go 1.1 mi, 9% grade

    8. (elev. 3520′) Pass 35-9-12 Rd. (and unimproved road) on right – go 0.6 mi, 1% grade

    9. (elev. 3560′) Arrive at SOLDIER CAMP intersection; pass BLM 35-9-1, 35-9-14-1 and South Fork Galice Rd. on left; pass road on right; continue straight on BLM 34-8-36 – go 1.7 mi, flat

    10. (elev. 3560′) Pass Hobson Horn Rd./Sourgrass Rd. on left – go 1.0 mi, slight decline

    11. (elev. 3530) Arrive at CAMP HOWARD; NF 23 on left; Bear Camp Rd. (a.k.a. BLM 34-8-36) and BLM 34-9-34 on right

    Ending at critical fork between NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36

    Total distance: 12.2 miles
    Total time: 36 minutes @ 20 mph
    — End Part 2: Galice to critical fork —

    Now at this point, things get a bit more speculative. It is possible that the Kims reached the critical fork shortly after 11 p.m., assuming they traveled an average of 20 mph up BLM 34-8-36. Folks with local knowledge will have a better sense of whether this estimated speed is too fast or too slow.

    In any case, visibility and weather conditions could change this estimate a lot. It would be useful to know what the snow level was that night shortly before midnight, as their speed would have dropped significantly once they hit snow.

    Next, I’ll look more at the lay of the land at this critical fork. Then I look at the “right” route on NF 23 from this point. Finally, I will look at the maze of BLM roads they ended up on.

    (466 RodneyG) Yes, I have Google Earth and it was helpful in figuring out turns, elevations and distances. It also give a pretty good sense of just how rugged this country is when you tilt the view and “fly” through th terrain!

  544. Kip says:

    [repost #79 - Comment by Kip | December 7, 2006]

    I can’t find the words that adequately express the admiration and love I feel for James – an incredible human being who died truly heroically.

  545. Kip says:

    Thinking about James’ plight in the W.C. drainage reminds me of an experience I’ll not forget.

    West coast of Vancouver Island – one rainy winter day a friend and I had been trying to locate an access road to a beach we wanted to get down to. We were on a logging road that traversed a mountain side bordering the shore line.. We couldn’t find the turn off to the access road. We had been told that road ran parallel to a creek that ended at the ocean beach. We did find a creek and an old log skid path that ran beside it we thought may have been “the road”. So we parked our vehicle & headed on foot (sneakers!) down the path. The going initially was easy, a moderate downhill grade with light underbrush cover. But further down it got increasingly tougher as the trail petered out. Soon we were ducking under & clambering over fallen trees and limbs cluttering the creek bed. The undergrowth got more dense and the creek got deeper and the boulders seemed more slimy and slippery the further downstream we walked-waded. Eventually the way became almost impassable. At that point I remember well the pull of the challenge, urging me on even further…But thanks largely to my intransigent common sense partner we did turn around. Daylight was soon to be gone and we were wet & tired. The climb back up was a hell of a struggle. We were fortunate, we got out OK.

    Had we not turned back, could we have survived the night in that tangled watery abyss? It’s painful just thinking how close we came to finding that out.

  546. Kip says:

    I’ve been thinking of James’ desperate, fatal scramble down the drainage depression.

    Bob, (or anybody)… do you think it conceivable that on the Saturday James could have traveled all the way down to the point he was eventually found? The reason I ask is that I find it difficult to believe he could have survived even one night soaking wet in freezing temperatures with no shelter & no heat in that hellhole chasm.

    • Kelly says:

      They found an impression, I believe near a log, where they believe James slept, so I think they are certain he survived Saturday night. I believe that’s where they also found the long sleeve red tshirt…

  547. RodneyG says:

    Heather, if indeed the Google Map routing changed in mid-2006, it could be that they changed mapping providers for that area.

    As you know, the current Google map uses NAVTEQ.

    However, the Google Maps API appears to use TeleAtlas data, as seen at this example:

    http://www.earthtools.org/index.php?x=-123.78107070922851&y=42.676756492874695&z=13&t=4&m=Map

    I suppose it’s possible that the main Google Maps site used to use the TeleAtlas data, and then switched to NAVTEQ when you noticed the change in routing. Bear Camp Rd looks about the same to me in the TeleAtlas data, but who knows what kind of internal codes are on these roads for use with routing algorithms?

    (Early on the East Coast, the loneliest time to post.)

  548. Gayle says:

    551… deleted at Gayle’s request

  549. glenn says:

    (561) wow…thats a lot of work!

  550. Paul says:

    THIS JUST GETS MORE PATHETIC WITH EACH PASSING DAY:

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166676907267580.xml&coll=7

    Amazing, simply amazing.

  551. glenn says:

    (568)
    Well at least we have confirmed the hotel in Portland…Hotel Lucia they refused to release the information.

    The cellphone information not heeded is ridiculus. This should be investigated to see if there is criminal negligence involved. Now this is the third person that provided direct information EXACTLY where they could find the Kim’s and the idiots in charge ignored it.

  552. Paul says:

    570 …and Sara R does not return phone calls. So the Josephine sheriff says the Oregonian article is untrue, but I have yet to see specifics on that.

    569 MARIE: Did you know that Packy is the nickname of the first elephant ever born in captivity at the Portland Zoo ? Interestingly, Packy has grown into an exceedingly mean tempered packaderm and has to be segregated from the other elephants because he’s always picking fights and bullying the other elephants. He’s just plain ornery and mean….not there are any relevant parallels here, I just thought I would mention it.

  553. glenn says:

    LOL many times over…

  554. glenn says:

    (568)

    “The Josephine County Sheriff’s Office and state police did not order a search of the area with a heat-seeking helicopter that Saturday night or Sunday, even though the Oregon National Guard had one fueled and awaiting orders. Sara Rubrecht, emergency services manager for Josephine County, did not return calls Wednesday seeking comment.”

    There is that name AGAIN!

  555. Paul says:

    572/571 – has a momentary lapse, the parallels were just too amusing to ignore (that is a totally true story).

  556. Gayle says:

    571/569: LOL

    568: Mental note: When in Portland never stay at Hotel Lucia.

    I lived in the Pacific NW for 20 years and my husband and I traveled all over Oregon (among all the other states and Canada) including the Rogue River area. We even took a jet boat ride down the Rogue once in the area where they filmed Rooster Cogburn, and I remember how high the rugged, bouldered walls of the river were, how raw the country was, and was amazed anyone filmed anything there.

    It makes me sputter to think this info was available to SAR while James Kim as still alive and not acted upon sooner. I would like to see the explantion why Peter Sleeth’s reporting is not accurate. Thank goodness for him. At least one investigative reporter is on top of this.

    On Sat morning after James went off on foot, Kati claimed to have heard a helicopter. Has anyone heard whose helicopter that was?

  557. Maggie says:

    561 – RobZ, very nice work!

    568 – Paul, thank you for posting that link. Unbelievable. Even in the big Sunday Oregonian article last week, they did mention that there were only a few roads from which that signal could have come, so it was pretty narrowed down (sorry, don’t have the quote in front of me right now – could find it if someone wants it). All of which would have been great information if there was enough capable and competent coordination to have actually looked before a 30-year old woman had to become a widow with little girls who will grow up, graduate and get married without their father. Yes, I’m getting emotional, and I’d worry if I didn’t find that kind of thing sad. Sure, James and Kati made some mistakes (so shut up before you even speak up if you are thinking of replying about how they screwed up – tired of hearing it, and that’s not even the point anymore), I don’t give a crap who does or doesn’t feel that he’s a hero, and maybe it still would have ended this way even if there was a competent coordination, but maybe not – there was sure as hell a better chance if paid professionals had done their damn jobs – maybe, just maybe, James Kim could have made it out of there alive. With the way this thing was handled, he didn’t have much of a chance.

    The hotel thing – my post 796 on the old page pretty much sums up my thoughts on this and how policies need to be changed. In a nutshell, things like ID theft are rampant, corporate offices dictate policy outside of the actual right now kind of circumstances, and I can understand why there was a delay – BUT – this needs to change (post 796 on hold page has an idea of mine).

    Anyway, now I’m irate again.

  558. Maggie says:

    PS on 576: I am one of those saps who does think James was a hero, and I, too, would LOVE more than anything to hear some explanation from Sarah Rubrecht, Brian Anderson, etc., beyond that the allegations are not true and that they have no comment. I can only believe, then, that the Oregonian’s articles have been accurate.

  559. glenn says:

    (577) I have seen Rubrecht’s named spelled two ways…

    Sara and Sarah…can anyone confirm the correct spelling of her first name?

    and why does she still have a job?

  560. Marie says:

    Paul (571),
    Wow, that is amazing!
    (deleted….)

  561. Maggie says:

    578 – I’ve seen it both ways, too, but take a look at this where she is Sara and how to contact her for no comment:

    http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/docs/plan_train/locals_list.pdf

    Agreed – why does she have a job?? I’m getting irate all over again.

  562. Brenda Helverson says:

    This morning, KIRO-7 in Seattle cited a report that a Portland motel refused to give Portland police the Kim’s credit card information OR to provide their cell phone numbers.

    Although the first claim is old news on this board, I have not heard the last claim regarding cell phone numbers. To anyone’s knowledge, did the Portland police ask for cell phone numbers from the Portland motel and was this request specifically refused?

    I accept Mr. Hollenbeck’s statement that in his long experience, the gate at the now-infamous Bear Camp-BLM road intersection is never closed or locked. However, this tends to indicate that the FS/BLM official who said that he ordered that the gate be locked might be telling a falshood. Has anyone heard from the guys who were “ordered” to lock the gate? Someone with initiative could use FOIA to resolve this issue by examining the FS/BLM records for the period when the gate was supposedly locked.

    CNN’s display of a cut lock can easily be explained away. Undoubtedly locks on that gate have been installed and cut soon afterward over the years and CNN found the remnants of an old lock over in a ditch and pretended like it was the actual lock that directly caused the Kim to become stranded in the wilderness. BTW, CNN lies a lot.

    I am intrigued by Maggie’s hypothesis (at #497) and by her map showing an alternate (more Westerly) route that the Kim Family might have taken. Until now, we have assumed (I think) that Kim Family proceeded down the BLM road probably thinking that they were on Bear Camp Road and then James Kim hiked back down that same road in the same direction that they had come. That makes sense if we assume that James Kim was trying to return to Galice and tends to dovetail with the theory that James thought that he was entering Galice Creek.

    But suppose that Maggie is right? Let’s continue to suppose that the Kims thought that they were on Bear Camp Road (or some other road leading to the Coast). If after their long drive the Kims came downhill out of the snow as reported, then maybe they thought that they had passed the high ground at Bear Camp and that they were on the West side of the Coast Range. In that case, maybe James Kim went further down that same road thinking that he would reach Agness instead of Galice. Any thoughts?

    Finally, in analyzing the law enforcement response, we should recall that nobody KNEW that the Kim Family was lost in the snow until they were actually found. Before the evidence started to mount in that direction, it remained possible that the Kims had been kidnapped, or that they had driven into the Cascades instead of the Coast Range, or that they had driven off a cliff into the ocean, or that they had given up and decided to drive back to California and ended up in some sort of trouble there. It remained possible (however unlikely) that James Kim freaked out, killed his family, and headed to Mexico. I imagine that a lot of law enforcement attention was distracted by scenarios other than getting lost in the snow on Bear Camp Road and any reasonable cop would consider these possibilities and others, at least briefly. This might tend to explain why the LE leadership wasn’t completely focused on S&R.

    Finally, I am confused by the concept that the BLM roads South of the Rogue River are so convoluted that they are beyond the comprehension of mortal man. After all, these roads are graded and some of them are even paved, meaning that there is a road grading contractor and sometimes a paving contractor who know those roads very well. These roads were likely graded and/or paved under a contract, meaning that the companies and BLM officials involved had direct knowledge and accurate maps of the whole area. In addition, these are primarily logging roads and the logging companies, loggers, and log truck drivers who work in the area use these roads and where they go. These possible sources of local knowledge might be useful in the future.

    I have been lurking here since about post #200 (old numbering system). Thanks to everyone for the enlightening comments and to Joe Duck for providing this space.

  563. Maggie says:

    581 – Brenda, thank you for taking a look at my alternate scenario – just for the record, I do not necessarily think that the Kim’s took that route, since there is no evidence that they did. It’s just another way to get there, and I found it interesting as another unlikely possibility. I am still inclined to think they maybe never got onto FS 23 and instead took that same right onto the BLM road believing it was Bear Camp Road – pure speculation.

    You do bring up a good point that there were many other reasons they could have been missing other than being lost where they were, and I would cut LE/SAR a little slack at the very, very early start – but once they started ignoring pertinent information likely placing the Kim’s as lost in that area, I think they really botched this. Just my opinion.

  564. Lisa says:

    Wow! I’m really impressed by the variety and quality of depth and levity this morning… There’s almost too many posts I really want to respond to at once! Unfortunately, I don’t have enough time!

  565. rem says:

    I don’t think that the hotel not providing the cell numbers is that important. You would think they could have obtained that information from whomever reported them missing or from employees at the Kim owned stores or from family members.

    Joe – if you need to remove a post because of inappropriate content, do you have the ability to just overwrite the text with the word DELETED so that the numbering system isn’t affected? Just wondering.

  566. Maggie says:

    584 – rem, I think it was mainly the credit card informationt that the hotel wouldn’t release. That’s something most friends/family would not have but could have more quickly helped to determin where the Kim’s went after leaving the hotel to narrow down the search area. The private citizen Roseburg Denney’s tip came quite a bit later, so if that information had been available sooner, it may have provided another clue a little sooner.

  567. tara says:

    As for the cell phone numbers from the hotel, I doubt they needed to ask. Wouldnt the family readily give that to the police?

  568. joeduck says:

    Brenda I like your idea of finding a way to bring in logger or road contractor information. A lot of people who get lost in the west are lost on logging roads that the SAR folks are NOT very familiar with.

    Clearly in the Kim’s case there were locals who knew the area well/had special information (esp. the Owner of Black Bar Lodge and the Edge Wireless) that were not brought into the process quickly.

    If this is typical it’s a major defect in SAR strategy because you can easily collect and analyze *information* without having people running all over the search area getting in the way.

    So it’s time to create an easy-to-navigate online system that will collect pieces of information that might be of help, combine those with existing “danger” data, and then use people online to analyze relationships, plot coordinates on maps, and provide insight. This input is free and appears to be in huge abundance out in cyberland and it can bypass the beauracracy and “crowding” that hampers a lot of SAR efforts.

    Also, worthless comments are easy to bypass in this case where, as many point out above, worthless helpers use up resources and get in the way.

  569. glenn says:

    (587) Your just like Steve McQueen – man! :)

    For those of us older folk out here might remember that from Cheech and Chong.

    Good points all the way through your post.

    Today is another amazing day of information coming forth…I am still puzzled how Sara R. still has a job?

  570. joeduck says:

    Rem – Yes, to keep the numbers intact I’ll just write deleted.

    As I’ve said I don’t like to delete stuff unless the author asks me to because this is a very bright and imaginative group, but many of the comments don’t reflect that at all.

    Everybody – please be more civil and stop the petty name calling, keeping in mind that family and friends were (are?) reading the blog.

  571. glenn says:

    (589) BTW Joe…nice to see your efforts recognized on the family site.

  572. Maggie says:

    (589 – 591) I didn’t see it – where is it? Joe, I do think that this is an amazing blog commentary, and thank you again for giving us all this place to direct our thoughts and feelings into something (mostly) constructive.

  573. Maggie says:

    592 – Nevermind – duh – saw it. That’s very nice.

  574. Lisa says:

    In a way, I think it’s a shame that the flaws within the system and SAR leadership efforts are being brought forth within this prime time of the holiday season. I think even more people nationally would be interested in hearing about the failings of the search, but many are very busy. I would really like to get it more press – like maybe on one of the network news broadcasts, in order to shed more light and put more pressure on all authorities involved – those involved in failings and those involved in improving them.

  575. Lisa says:

    Joe do you have any guidelines you’d like to suggest for
    comment content?

  576. Paul says:

    579 / Marie: I can’t speak to that, and I really should apologize for my 571 post. Elephants can’t speak for themselves and it’s unfair and mean spirited for me to cast aspersions on an animal that can’t speak for itself….it’s comparable in despicability to endlessly belittling and attacking someone who is dead; who is here neither to defend his reputation and actions nor – more importantly – to give his side of the story.

    With that I will leave this issue alone and endeavor, as Joe so wisely counsels, to “be more civil and stop the petty name calling”. Thank you for reminding us Joe.

  577. Lisa says:

    Fox News.com is participating:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,237988,00.html&e=14823&sa=X&oi=news&ct=result&cd=1&usg=__blmLt-HCRq_5MGhkWePv7iit3zk=

    There’s no brand new – news, but there’s a new composite
    article that discusses the new failure information – written
    by Fox news with contributions from the associated press.

  578. Paul says:

    595/ Lisa: I think Joe’s comment, quoted in my post 596, is reasonable and clear.

  579. Maggie says:

    597 – Lisa, I had trouble with the link and didn’t see the story on their site. Do you remember where on there it was?

  580. Lisa says:

    Re: 599

    Maggie – I found it when I googled ‘James Kim search,’
    the article had posted 4 hours ago and references both
    the SF Chronicle and Oregonian articles – but in a fresh
    format.

    And here is some new information it had:

    “James Kim’s father, Spencer Kim, recently sent an e-mail launching a “private-public sector initiative … in honor of James L. Kim, my beloved son.”

    Kim asked friends and associates to help review laws to allow release of credit card and phone records to next of kin in case of emergency.

    He also called for the U.S. Forest Service to enforce restrictions on access to logging roads with clear signs, roadblocks and closed gates during the winter. And he urged making it a federal crime to tamper with those signs and gates.”

    I will try to post the link again…

  581. Maggie says:

    Thanks Gayle and Lisa. I did see in the Oregonian where Mr. Kim mentioned credit card/phone records and the logging road issues. Hopefully more lives may be saved in the future with some fairly simple changes.

  582. joeduck says:

    Lisa re: Comment content guidelines. I like to stay away from that because it can inhibit people who aren’t sure if it’s relevant and then get too “shy” about posting the comment.

    I’d just like people to stop the baiting and personal insults which detract from the story that gripped everybody here.

    However I *hate* to be a censor because it really goes against the grain of how comments should work, especially since there are now a lot of writers and far more readers participating.

  583. Paul says:

    Joe / Bob H – if the Josephine County sherrif ever gives more specifics as to why he alleges the Oregonian is lying please link the source and/or recap if you can. It may be via a venue that is not web accesible.

  584. Lisa says:

    Re: 600

    Thanks Gayle! Our Master-Linker!

    Re: 598

    I think that’s true Paul, as for the name-calling. However,
    I’m a little confused and would be interested in hearing
    if Joe has anything else to say on the matter.

    For example, there are compliments I would like to express
    about the Kim children, but I don’t know if that would fall
    within what Joe has in mind.

    I guess what I would like to know is – how “professional”
    vs. how “relaxed” or “informal” would he prefer this to be?

    Since it is within his jurisdiction!

  585. Lisa says:

    I’m late once again! Thanks Joe! That helps a lot!

  586. Lisa says:

    Re: 605

    That was meant to be funny at the end – just want
    to have respect because it is your site.

  587. bamadad says:

    From FOX News:

    Further impairing the rescue mission, managers at the Hotel Lucia, where James and Kati Kim stayed Nov. 24 with their two young daughters, declined requests faxed on Nov. 30 on Portland Police Bureau letterhead for information that could have given insight into the family’s whereabouts, police said.

    Portland Detective Michael Weinstein said he tried to explain the urgency of the request and that he did not have enough time to secure a subpoena. “The Kim family were believed to be in immediate danger,” he said.

    “To their credit, I could tell the manager truly wanted to help me, but he was ordered not to provide heinformation,” Weinstein told the San Francisco Chronicle, which reported the story earlier this month. Click here to read that story. The downtown Portland hotel’s general manager did not return a call Wednesday from The Oregonian newspaper seeking comment

    The downtown Portland hotel’s general manager did not return a call Wednesday from The Oregonian newspaper seeking comment.

  588. Marie says:

    Hi Paul (596),
    I respect what you said here.
    I especially like the very well-expressed analogy about bashing defenseless animals and the defenseless deceased/grief-stricken ones whose plight we discuss here.
    My deep and sincere apologies to Portland Zoo Packy. I’d never want to playfully pick on an innocent pachyderm, even if he is a bit persnickety! Peace to Packy!!!!

  589. bamadad says:

    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g52024-d250254-Reviews-Hotel_Lucia-Portland_Oregon.html

    I think this is the Hotel Lucia website— can anyone confirm?

    While I understand the privacy rights of their guests caused them to not release CC information to just anyone—

    I just don’t know why they would thwart an investigative request from a police detective without a court subpoena. Kind of surprising. I wonder what the basis was?

    Obviously the hotel made a bad decision and I hope they try to make up for it or at least support a change in whatever convoluted law prevented the release?

  590. glenn says:

    (610) Once the hotel is confirmed…why don’t we all make a phone call to the hotel and complain about it.

  591. Lisa says:

    For those who are interested but haven’t read it – here is an article with a lot of personal information and sentiment from those who knew James:

    http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1165467322304590.xml&coll=7&thispage=4

    Now some personal information from me (so those not interested can move on):

    I had felt an uncanny affinity with James and discovered just now that we both attended two of the small Quaker colleges in the U.S. around the same time. I had felt like
    he was a friend – (“Friend” is also actually another name for Quakers) and now it makes more sense.

    I went to Friends’ schools starting in Kindergarten. I later went to public school, but returned to a Quaker school for college because their idea of education is so enriching. They are really about bringing out the best in humanity – encouraging social and cultural equalitarianism and understanding around the world. And you don’t have
    to be Quaker at all to attend their schools. Their ideals
    however, often appeal to people who like those ideals.

    And they are optimists, which unforutunately in this case may not have worked in James’ favor. I think that is partly why I understood.

    Here is a quote from a friend of his in the above mentioned article which I love:

    “The last time she saw James was at a birthday party in August. He was massaging Sabine’s feet as Penelope was drawing with chalk.

    ‘I remember James sitting outside with Sabine in his lap,’ she said, ‘and she was just melting in his arms.'”

    I think this is partly why this story is so gripping.

  592. glenn says:

    (612) Thanks for sharing; friend… :)

  593. Lisa says:

    Re: 613

    Thanks, glenn!

  594. bamadad says:

    Here is a paragraph from one random, credit card holder agreement (Visa and MC):

    Credit Information/Financial Statements. You authorize us to release information to others (e.g., credit bureaus, merchants, law enforcement agencies, and other financial institutions) regarding the status and history of your Account.

    But this doesn’t answer the question if a merchant like the Hotel could release. ……or even what the heck “status and history” mean– seems like it should include the CC number. I guess this interaction was done only by fax. Maybe they thought they were being scammed themselves out of the Kim’s CC info. But they could have called a general number at the Portland PD to confirm. Sometimes the world gets too complicated.

    Just seems there should be some room for common sense here. well I am just guessing and doing this with 20/20 hindsight.

  595. PacNWer says:

    If the Kims cared so much for their children, why did they ignore a series of warnings — one on a map and three on road signs — along with bad weather? Why did they go up there with inadequate gas and without even the sort of clothing you’d have for rainy weather in Oregon? Some “caring.”

    As for the SAR efforts, something occurred to me. What proportion of the rescue attempt consisted of government resources, compared with private resources? If SAR is to be critically examined, shouldn’t the private efforts be included? Or would that hurt too many precious feelings?

  596. Lisa says:

    Yes – I bet the problem mainly has to do with the fax
    issue – there are so many imposters and tricksters out
    there now, and we have a lot of problems with ID theft
    in Portland. I think it would have been best if the police
    could have sent one or more personnel in person. Downtown
    Portland is not that big. Knowing the location of the police station I looked at the map, and it is within 5
    minutes of the hotel.

  597. Kip says:

    considerable attention has been focused on the the refusal of a Portland hotel to divulge the Kims cell phone number(s)

    BUT the hotel was hardly the only possible source for this info

    how ’bout just asking their friends, family, co-workers, store managers, ….? cnet?

    (maybe i’m missing something)

  598. glenn says:

    (619) at the time of the investigation that was very early on and I agree the facts around who presented what information is limited as far as cnet,friends, and family.

    Sadly it probably wouldn’t have mattered because Sara R. and Anderson would have dismissed it anyway. You would have a better chance of being abducted by alien then be found by those two!

    Wait…maybe if you got lost on the field at an Oregon football game – Anderson might be able to help.

  599. Lisa says:

    Re: 616

    There are often a lot of danger and warning signs on roads
    that are not literal depictions of the roads at that time.

    Back east, there are a lot of signs that say ‘Warning or
    Caution Rock Slides’ – but I have never seen an actual rock
    slide on any one of them.

    There are also a lot of deer crossing signs where there
    are not always deer crossing at that moment.

    Most of us do not like to live in fear – and our lives
    today are convenient enough that we usually don’t encounter
    as many survival dangers and perils as our forefathers did.

    Anotherwords, the Kims may have seen the signs but didn’t
    really think they applied until the weather worsened and
    they started sliding. Then they decided to get out of there
    and they tried and it was too late.

    That is what the accounts we have indicate.

    I haven’t looked myself, and I am not sure if we can be
    positive which map they had – but someone said the warnings
    on the maps tend to be very small when there are any at all.

    They thought they were going on an easy-going Thanksgiving
    holiday road trip. They did not plan on going hiking through
    snowy mountains.

    In looking at this case all SAR efforts can be examined. What we have found, however, is that often private efforts
    were inhibited by public rules, regulations, attitudes, inefficiency, and ineptitude.

  600. Maggie says:

    619 – Kip, I don’t know that anyone asked the hotel for cell phone numbers – it was the credit card number that the hotel would not give out because of corporate policy.

    I still can understand the hotel’s point of view. Without a crystal ball, they do not know if there is ID theft/fraud or that there is a legitimate request. I agree with Lisa where she said that an officer going in may have been a better idea in this case. In future cases, I do think there needs to be a somewhat universal policy in place in general, not just at hotels, but perhaps through the credit card companies themselves so that when someone is missing, and someone else knows where the missing person’s credit card was used, some quick action may be taken.

  601. Lisa says:

    Re: 619

    Kip, at this point it’s more about the cc #’s
    because that is information friends and family are
    less likely to have that would have been critical
    in determining where else the Kims had been –
    restaurants, stores, etc. on their trip.

  602. mapper says:

    Thats a good point, you would think the detective would be able to at least get cell phone numbers from the family. But I think the detective maybe wasn’t even working that angle, and was just interested in the credit card numbers because he knew what to do with that information. Maybe the family would not have credit card info either.

    Bamadad and Lisa I agree with you…it was a frustrating thought to me too. I could see an employee disregarding a fax. But, if the police just went in person, or sent the sheriff…it would be hard for the employee to question that.

    I really dont think the detective tried hard enough here…do you need a subpoena really? I think showing up in person would have done it. But that is just speculation.

  603. Maggie says:

    622 – I’ll correct myself. I just re-read that both cell numbers and credit card numbers were requested, though it would make sense that any family member/friend/house-sitter reporting them missing would have the cell number(s), but not the credit card number. That’s the crux of the issue and one that needs some thought for future cases.

  604. Lisa says:

    Re: 622

    Maggie, I agree! You have had great insights and ideas
    all along!

    p.s. the Redwoods are absolutely incredible!

    Re; 618

    glenn – you are being a pillar of strength!

    I’ll be back later!

  605. Lisa says:

    mapper you too!

  606. Kip says:

    the entire public leadership/coordinating SAR effort smacks to me of “inefficiency, and ineptitude”.

    it’s damn frustrating hearing all the excuses why this or that wasn’t done.

    gawd! a mum and a dad and an infant and a young child just one day disappear, unexpectedly, no trace

    2 possibilities: foul play or accident.

    either case it’s obviously critically urgent that the responsible SAR person, entity, agency… whatever it is, GET all pertinent info (cc#’s, cell #’s, etc) ASAP. no stopping, no excuses, no buck passing, … until it’s GOT.

  607. glenn says:

    (628) unless Oregon is playing ball…please don’t forget that…

    otherwise u r spot on Kip!

  608. PacNWer says:

    But of course Kip (628) is just full of excuses for negligent, irresponsible parents who take their kids into the middle of nowhere despite abundant warnings and with no supplies of any kind.

  609. Paul says:

    LOL – it’s Old Milwaukie time !!!

  610. Maggie says:

    631 – I’ve stayed out of it, and it’s none of my business, but I’m giddy in advance of a 4 day weekend and in the mood to voice more opinions, so I just want to say that I really, really like the change to this whole beer theme way, way, way more than any other response or feeding hungry trolls. I’ll return to my silence on this. Pop a top :)

  611. Brenda Helverson says:

    582 – Maggie, I agree that we can only speculate about the Kim Family’s route and even if we knew James Kim’s route and intended destination, we would not change the outcome. He faced a long and dangerous walk whether he was going forward to Agness or retreating to Galice.

    I believe that we honor the memory of James Kim by trying to understand what he and his Family went through. I believe that James Kim would be honored to know that we all care enough to try to understand what happened. I also believe that James would critique his own performance in terms that we would never dare to use. Even those who criticize James and detail his apparent errors and missteps serve to give his life additional meaning beyond his huge influence on others during his brief existence.

    With that respect and honor, we can properly speculate about the route that the Kim Family might have taken before they became stranded. Did the Kim Family drive past the intersection to Black Bar Lodge or did they take a more Westerly route (your proposed route)? It would be interesting to see a picture of the intersection where your proposed route diverges from the route that would take them opast the Black Bar Lodge road. Maybe someone will venture out next Spring and take some pictures.

    Perhaps the Kim