Kim Family Search in Rogue River Wilderness of Oregon
Kim Search discussion page ONE
Kim Search discussion page TWO
Questions for Kati Kim:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
http://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
The Kim Family Search discussion continues below. For the FIRST 1032 comments leading to this page go here: http://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/06/james-kim-search/#comments
Thanks Joe.. The load and scroll time was getting a bit long.
So 1000 is your theshold eh Joe…
Think you are right, Glenn, this topic has been wrung out pretty good with the article today and 1000+ (!!!-wow) posts. There are Susan’s remaining questions, but it is hard to say if there is impetus enough for those to be run down by the media. The good news is a lot of hard questions were pursued and the answers brought to light. Almost certainly some good changes will come out of that, and I like to think Susan’s e-mails to the Oregonian played a role. As someone who recreates regularly in the Rogue corridor, I certainly hope some good changes come out of it. So great of Joe to host this site, and so many interesting and thought provoking posts.
Thank you, Joe! Wow, 1000.
Glenn - I think WordPress would have kept going to at least 2000 comments. However the page was about 350k,. A browser can handle a larger files than that but as Spencer noted it was loading somewhat slow even on broadband and it seemed like we should get a clean slate going.
Susan’s e-mails did nothing. Your group did nothing. You came up with no ideas of any value. The Oregonian did all of the reporting and all of the analysis. This forum has been nothing, and I do mean nothing, but a vehicle for you people to congratulate yourselves on how concerned you are, and to engage in your pointless fetish for how the Internet can solve these things. Which it cannot.
Pacman, we that do not even make our true identities known have nothing to gain by doing this. This is about as opposite as egotistical and arrogant as can be. I will never be congratulated for this, GIVE IT A REST!
The Oregonian writers probably found this site as one of the first sources when they did a google search.
Excuse me, but what the hell did you or any of the rest of you contribute? The only thing you’ve done is act as the James Kim Hero Public Relations Volunteer Team. It has been a thoroughly unimpressive performance. If this is the Internet at work, then we ought to go back to beating on rocks.
Your the one with nothing to contribute. I really wish you would go away for the time you had promised.
I am done responding to you.
And you know what’s even worse than telling it like it is about the Kims and the SAR team? In this crowd, the cardinal sin is to tell it like it is about the Internet and about the crowd of Positive Thinking Wannabe Wellwishers. Guess what? They’re still dead, and in the final analysis all of your keyboarding hasn’t made a hill of beans worth of a difference. You haven’t even come up with a single idea that would change anything if it happened again the day after tomorrow.
But I have performed a great service. I have deflected your anger and frustration away from the person in the mirror. Everyone needs a lightning rod, so have at me you impotent fools!
Try it a different way: Someone, anyone, exactly what information did you provide to anyone? Come on, out with it. This ought to be really good.
Could Pacman (I like that - he’s going to gobbel us up - oh - scared - be the unheard of, unknown mystery sherriff?
OK, OK, totally and completely petty & facetious
PacNWer - I have agreed in principle with many of your comments (see some of my earliest posts), but your delivery needs so much work it is beyond pathetic. You seem to have more anger in you than Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski and Osama bin Laden put together.
The only “great service” you have provided is to give every poster on this forum a role model for someone you would never, in a million years, want to be like.
Go back to the Medford forum and spew your blather there, they seem to like you.
PacNWer - I’m confused. You started an excellent, diplomatic, and constructive discussion over at the Mailtribune Forum here: http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1086&st=0
But here at my humble blog you really have an axe to grind, apparently with everybody who has posted something over here - what’s up?
well Frances, maybe glenn was right after all, maybe he does have something to do with it. I cant think of any other reason to be such a….. about people gathering to exchange thoughts, conversation, and ideas.
This has been great to talk to all of you, well most of you, and thanks to our wonderful host Joe.
joe…I am stunned for the very first time todaym (as if today wasn’t full of surprises). thanks for that link.
Simple question: What has any of you added, other than #1 making yourselves feel good and #2 promoting the Internet even though it has been totally useless in this situation? You can do nothing other than attack me, which I think is useful because it will keep you from hurting yourselves. But really: What do you have to show for yourselves?
I have something to show for myself. I’ve boiled it down to the essentials, which is the abdication of personal responsibility. I’ve come up with a specific message to get out to the public that would SAVE LIVES if it were done.
You people have done none of that, and you’ve rejected my message because it focuses on the Kims idiocy and irresponsibility, which you have deemed to cruel for words. So tell oh brilliant ones, what have you done?
Joe - thank you for that link. I about choked. He mentions some of the same ideas tossed around here plus another good idea about radio station info that he didn’t mention here. Interesting.
Read ALL of his posts over there. He’s not always so nice…same M.O. - hits the same topic over and over and over, and then 300 more times just to be thorough, then scathingly ridicules anyone not on the same page. Given, he is a bit more diplomatic at times, but it’s the same ranting and raving.
And I continue to believe he gets his Ya Yas off by getting us to respond to him.
Thank you Joe, for weighing in. He will have some suitably antagonist, belittling response I am certain.
I believe the internet would be a threat to those who want to be the center, the one and only with good ideas. The inernet makes it possible for many of us to talk and come up with good ideas….this must be very hard on the narcissists among us, who believe they are the ones who should be recognized.
really, this is all becoming very clear to me!
Re pakbaby. Probably belts down a few and gets increasingly crusty as the day unfolds. Best option is to ignore such posters. Vigorous dissent is possible while still maintaining a decorum of civility. Discourse with such people is usually utterly pointless.
Ok, PacNWer, show me ONE place where your brilliant message has been gotten out to the public and you’re specific message has been implemented & exactly WHERE you have made ANY difference?
Your pat yourself on the back for something you haven’t accomplished. None here has claimed to have accomplished anything of any great significance.
People are equal here, not a pack of your followers as on the message board Joe linked to.
Is is amazing that you actually talk like a human over there but here represent yourself as as a wild eyed, self absored, self appointed God. Split personality disorder, might have hit on something there…
Just call me the chilly wind that knows no fear or favor. Somebody’s dead, and three others almost bought the farm, because of all these absolutely lame-brain misjudgments and character flaws run rampant in a society that would rather stamp “hero” on them than hurt anyone’s feelings.
James Kim died because he was too irresponsible to turn around on a snowy night, and because some undersheriff wanted to watch a football game rather than pick up the phone. Meanwhile, a bunch of his geek friends mentally masturbated about the Internet while deciding that telling it like it is was too cruel.
I’m telling you, this minor tragedy rather neatly encapsulates a whole lot of problems that we’ve got as a people.
run of the mill sociopath if you ask me, but roy might also be right on with the alcoholic slant too….lol Roy.
Yeah, Frances, I know James Kim is your hero. Bad choice. Try a Marvel comic book. They make more sense.
Ok, admittedly didn’t read all the post - not interested in getting in another message board ( I know this isn’t officially a message board, but blog) & especially not where Pacman is.
Thanks mapper and thanks for all the excellent input.
PacNWer - I think it’s too early to know if the type of online environment we’ve talked about over the past few days will help in future cases.
Note that friends of the missing climbers in China now have a blog set up for that distant rescue effort: http://fowlerboskoff.blogspot.com
My thinking is that often people die as much from a lack of quality information flow and lack of good information processing as from the natural hazards. The internet is good at managing information and getting it out fast to people who can process it.
Why are you upset the undersherriff was watching a football game instead of doing his job? It was the Kims fault that he was even asked to leave his football game. Geesh, pacman, slipping there a bit aren’t you?
Na, Pacman. I much perfer Barbies - she’s done everything in the world, has everything in the world but doesn’t have a brain in her head. Now THAT’s a real hero!!
Joe, tried 4 times to post the (now modified) link below, but the post never shows up. Leaving out the ht tp colon doubleslash part to see if it goes through
http://www.adn.com/outdoors/story/8499801p-8393134c.html
Roy did you get an error message? Link and post seems to be OK now. Normally WordPress should take your http:// OR your http://www. and turn it into a link automatically.
First, it seems there are at least two story lines - and two threads of discussion: 1) what the Kims did and 2) what the searchers did. Would it make sense to discuss these two story lines on two different pages?
In regards to what the Kims did, I think most agree they made several mistakes during the evening of Saturday, November 25, but these mistakes might not have been fatal.
As I questioned before (#353 in previous discussion) and as Roy is now suggesting (#992 in previous discussion), the turning point for the Kims was probably the intersection where NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36 fork. I believe that, in the dark and rain or snow, the Kims never saw the small sign pointing the way to the coast and never heading down NF 23. On this point, I am not convinced that Kati Kim’s memory is accurate when she talks about moving rocks and backing up. Rather I believe, without the gate locked to stop or warn them, they unknowlingly followed BLM 34-8-36 past this intersection and continued on this narrowing and long logging road until they had no opportunity to turn around. I can’t believe that they knowingly went down the wrong road thinking or hoping it would lead to the coast.
Thus, again I question or suggest that the BLM’s failure to lock the gate at that intersection was critical. Had the gate been locked, the Kims might have continued along and up NF-23, perhaps making it to the other side, or perhaps more likely being forced to stop. But NF 23 was searched much sooner than BLM 34-8-36 and it is likely they would have been found sooner. Or perhaps they would have turned around at that critical intersection, where there should be enough room to turn around, and headed back to Galice and to safety for the night.
But I have not seen any of the news reports, including the great report in the recent Oregonian, really resolve this key question.
Do others agree the Kims most likely never went on NF 23?
Joe, posted links previously on your site without problems. Didnt get an error message this time. Looked like the post went through, but it was never on the refreshed page after clicking submit.
Tried to attach it to this post, but once again it didnt show up. Am using IE7. Maybe something distinct to my computer…
Rob Z - clarifying - never went on NF 23 past that junction ? That is an interesting theory. I have not checked to see if the original very lengthy press conference from the Oregon State Police is still up. My memory is that in the conf the officer said Kati Kim said they backed up Bear Camp down to that junction after they could go no further, that that was when James had the door open (so he could see backwards…seems WAY more probable you would have the door open to back up - I’ve been in some incredible snows and never opened the door so I could see FORWARDs as the paper claimed today). I need to listen to that press conf if it is still available.
I have trouble reconciling the version in todays paper with my memory of the account in the press conf….and, in many respects, your theory makes more sense, but Kati Kims account seems to contradict it.
If they went up Bear Camp PAST the junction why wouldn’t they just keep backing down BC instead of going down that junction…unless you had such a bad case of get-there-itis you thought it might ultimately get you to Gold Beach.
RobZ,
I too think its highly unlikely they ever went any further down NF23 than where they veered left at that fork. The two explanations attributed to Kati, namely 1. They went down this road looking for a place to turn around (wildy implausible. Doesnt take 20 miles down a logging road the find a place to turn around, plus they could have easily done a 3 point turn at the wide bear camp/blm road fork) and 2. They wanted to head downhill to get out of the snow (seems implausible, makes much more sense to just drive out the way they came on 23. They knew it also headed downhill and to civilization. Plus in very limited visibility how would they even have known the BLM road went downhill, or wouldnt start climbing steeply around the next bend).
Ive yet to see any plausbile rationale as to why they would drive 20 miles down a logging road unless they didnt realize they’d left 23. Its the only thing that makes sense. To me anyway.
Pac…man I am really holding back here. You have no idea who you are playing with.
In any event…considering the tone and approach of your recent posts we must have hit a home run! You just happen to be on the opposing team and you just lost…I laugh in your general direction.
We busted our butts here and worked directly with Peter Sleeth and got this information out…sorry your life sucks now because of it…but WE WON!
We will make a difference in the long run…PERIOD.
Bye bye
er veered right at the fork. Sorry. Always getting my left/right mixed up. Not the best person to ask for directions.
Roy
Glenn, I’m with Roy on PacNWer, and I know I have said it before and then made the mistake of letting him suck me in again with his vitriol, but I will not again. To quote Roy: “Best option is to ignore such posters. Vigorous dissent is possible while still maintaining a decorum of civility. Discourse with such people is usually utterly pointless.”
Utterly and totally.
It is also possible that they thought they made the wrong turn long after they turned onto the BLM road. Ie they are on the BLM road, but still think they are on the right road, then after it gets narrower and narrower think they probably made a wrong turn at one of the BLM road forks–not realizing their wrong turn was way back at the Bear Camp/BLM fork (They might not even have seen the road going up to the left, the real NF23).
Roy
That just makes so much more sense than any of the other versions (veered right in error at the junction)…
It was the one thing about todays newspaper account I found lacking…they kind of glossed over it.
Roy - sorry but I can only think it’s some quirky WordPress thing that does not like the format. This is supposed to kick it into “moderation” but I don’t have any in the moderation queue at this time.
RobZ if a lot of people say to break this up into separate sections I’m happy to do that, but I hate to make people bounce around that much since all this Kim Search stuff is related. There are now many comments in other posts relating to this discussion so I’m sticking to the “one case/one set of comments” for now.
An alternative could be a threaded discussion forum but that requires logins and in I often get frustrated trying to find and follow related threads.
Rob (33+), I think it is definitely possible that they never went past that junction on NF 23/Bear Camp Rd. There are a few other roads off of 34-8-36 where they may have backed up, and since they were so very lost, I don’t know whether Kati would necessarily be able to say for certain where exactly they were when they backed up, especially if they did think that they were still on that same road - maybe I’m wrong. After seeing pictures of that fork in the road and watching the CNN report about how confusing it is and how small the sign pointing to the coast is (kind of tacked onto the bottom of the larger signs, if I remember correctly), my hunch is that they took that wider turn to the right, not realizing they’d gone off the path. Pure speculation. I don’t think we will ever know for certain.
(40)…thanks for your comments Paul…but as we all know Pac is a putz (sorry but you all know it). It is time he is exposed - the article today must have left him speechless and his response tonight is definitely linked to things happening today. Something hit close to home for Pac today and if he continues to post he should come clean so we can really engage in an intelligent conversation.
Pac whatever it is…you are connected to this situation whether it is CNET related, SAR related or maybe you just don’t like the Kim’s for some reason.
Come out from hiding and let us all in on your little game.
You know there are people that are putting in their time to improve this horrible situation - people should respect that - if you don’t then you must be trying to cover this up.
One last thing Pac…your posts are what drive me to want the truth to come out even more. So if you think you are deflecting us…for me anyway you are fueling me to go further.
PacNwer - It is a free country - is it not? A lot of
good ideas have been generated and discussed here. If you don’t like it, don’t participate. It sounds like this is just a source of frustration for you. You seem to have a short fuse and little tolerance for other views.
We have a lot. We don’t hate you - but if you feel attacked
you must realize that you tend to attack first. You can call us all the things you want, trying to satisfy yourself with your cleverness. But it is futile my friend, or foe - take your pick.
You seem to have a fetish for condemnation. I kind of
feel for you… But it is of your own choosing. Personal
responsibility as you like to refer to it. This isn’t
an argument you’re going to win, or can win. This is bigger
than just an argument. So if that is your aspiration again -
you will not achieve your desire.
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead …
We are not out to change the whole world, but we are here
to discuss these issues. And who is to say what might
ultimately come from it…
RE: 33
Is Bear Camp NF 23 from the beginning, or does that begin
at the fork - I have not seen those maps.
From all the reports I’ve read they took Bear Camp to the
fork and continued on BLM 34-8-36.
I think actually that one of Sara R’s mislead assumptions
was that they would have been on Bear Camp Rd. because
they would have seen the sign to the coast.In the article she says that is what she feels the most guilty about - not realizing that they wouldn’t have seen it because it was snowing.
Lisa, from the exit off I-5, it’s Galice Rd, which turns into BLM Road 34-8-36, but then turns into FS 23. The Kim’s basically continued on 34-8-36 to get to where the car was found (whether they went down FS 23, the actual continuation of Bear Camp Road, at all is the question), which is no longer Bear Camp Road. I know, confusing, huh?
Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Camp_Road
RE: 48
Thanks Maggie!
After saying that, I wonder if the actual “Bear Camp Road” portion is commonly referred to only as the FS 23 portion after finding this:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2005/0602/sport/stories/03sport.htm
Still, 34-8-36 starts well prior to where it meets FS 23, and the fork to the right is still 34-8-36. FS 23 heads more straight and eventually gets to the coast.
RE: 50
Thanks for that too! I wonder why the numbers work that way.
Maybe it’s because the Forest Service boundaries are near
the fork. Anyway, I have to call it a night!
Maggie I don’t think there is a “standard convention” for naming the roads up there even by BLM and USFS. I think the raft guide services use “Bear Camp” to mean the whole route from Galice to Gold Beach. Locally people generally talk about the “Bear Camp” route as the combination of roads from Merlin to Galice to Agness to Gold Beach which includes the Merlin to Galice Road, BLM 34-8-36 NF23, and I think NF 33 as well.
Re #33 (and #35-37, 39, 41-43, 45, 48-50): Just to be explicit, I believe there is plenty of blame to go around: 1) BLM could have locked the gate on November 1, as they were supposed to have done. 2) The Kims could have avoided getting into the situation they got themselves into. 3) The SAR could have been conducted better.
Of course, our purpose isn’t to assign blame but to understand what wrong so as to better avoid a similar situation in the future. In the case of the Kims, I think they would have had a better chance of correcting their earlier mistakes if BLM hadn’t made its mistake.
But, for now, my sense is just speculation. I’d like to read the media reports of what Kati said more carefully, and also study the elevation profile of the roads to see where the road goes up and down. In particular, Kati’s comment that they went a particular way to get to a lower elevation doesn’t necessarily make sense. If it was dark, and raining or snowing, they couldn’t see more than a hundred yards or so, if that, to tell if a road went up or down. I think the only way to know whether a particular road continued up or down was to drive it.
Paul (#43): Yes, even the recent Oregonian article didn’t really address the fork in the road. I’d like to email them to see if they know more than they wrote.
Thanks, Joe. That was how I first understood it until I ran across the mailtribune.com article - in any case, definitely can see how it can be confusing. Thank you for clarifying!
I can’t speak to what the BLM fork does as I have never been down it, but I can verify the Wikipedia description as accurate. Bear Camp, as I have always known it, climbs fairly quickly after you leave the Rogue river. It winds past some houses after leaving the Rogue, then climbs at a steep and fairly consistent pace until you reach the ridgetop. It is a pretty good climb - elevation at Galice being about 700, Bear Camp Summit is 4500.
Maggie I just read that MailTribune Article you linked and it did seem to have researched the names well. I’m still confused how many people would say “Bear Camp” only means NF23 rather than the whole route.
Joe (#44): It’s your site and I respect your thinking. Maybe it would help for people to include a “subject line” to start each post to help follow the different threads. But maybe it is fine as it is. In any case, splitting the discussion was just a suggestion…
RobZ, I understand what you’re saying regarding the post, but my vote goes with keep it like it is. In each post, most address a variety of topics and it often would be hard to narrow it down to one subject. Yes, to get the understanding of what has been said you have to go back & read a lot & for those of us who’ve been on here for a while, it was getting a bit much to scroll all the way up & down, so it was a good thing Joe did to split it, but I also like that he kept it in the same format. I feel more like it’s a group of people bouncing ideas, thoughts & feelings around as if they were in the same room sharing & brainstorming.
Joe, this is where I got confused back a little earlier. Bear Camp and N23 - for a while I thought they were one & the same.
A quick observation on ‘processes’ in the last two sentences of post 28.
The one part of this story which seems to get better with time and multiple news reports, are the actions taken by the employees at EDGE communications. When I first read about their involvement I was struck by the ‘self starting’ nature of those engineers, while marveling at what must be a truly streamlined corporate environment. This organization had far more reasons to fail at disseminating their synergetic information which ultimately was the cause and circumstance for discovering the Kim’s.
They developed an ad hoc process creating information which was accurate and timely. They did this without profit motive, politics, and ego or government mandate. How many can honestly say they work in such an environment? I can hear numerous responses from past and present workplaces; ‘that’s not our concern’ or ‘people are already working on that, don’t you think they know what they are doing?’ or “only George knows how to access that information and he’s on vacation’ finally ‘did you fill out a Form 7765a/1 ?’ the last is a personal favorite.
The greatest information has no value if it is inhibited by faults in the ‘process.’ There is an entire industry devoted to process mapping, development and testing. Although largely overlooked by many organizations or dismissed as ‘we’ve already done that’ a study of the actions taken by EDGE may provide a worthwhile benchmark.
From past posts one can already glean which occupations should require licensing or accreditation versus appointment. I’m assuming the engineers at EDGE were not appointed to their respective positions.
60 - Navigator, great point about EDGE! I, too, was amazed at how they were able to just take initiative and make it happen and provide quick information. Imagine if everything worked so efficiently…
58 - Frances, I tend to agree with keeping this as is since there are often various subjects in one post, and I find it easier to find everything on one page.
joeduck (#28) you’re right it’s too early. Maybe eventually it will work. Meantime, someone ought to say the truth about it up to now. No pain, no gain.
frances (#29), you don’t seem to understand that a LE professional is always on duty even when off-duty. Taking that phone call was his job. By not taking it, he got someone killed. No excuse. Same deal with the Kims. Female animals take better care of their young than Mrs. Kim did, and male animals do a better job of protecting their young than Mr. Kim did. Dumb and Dumber is this story.
RE: Joe/#56: Can’t speak for other outdoors folks, but in my experience rafters, outfitters and guides have commonly referenced the entire stretch from the turn off just before Galice all the way to Agness as Bear Camp road. Several accounts have also referenced the road the runs from Merlin to Galice as Bear Camp, which I had never heard before. That is a distinct and separate road, the Galice Rd. or also called Merlin/Galice Rd.
The NBC Today program this morning interviewed Peter Sleeth about his Oregonian article. (highlighted by the Oregon State football watching debacle). Matt Lauer had clips from State Police saying they were reviewing procedures, but a nearby County sheriff (who was not on camera) said he thought the Kim search was well run. ( well maybe in his County)
So thanks to anyone here who communicated with Peter Sleeth, it gives him support that he is pursuing a worthy story which hopefully will result in the State Police or even the Governor improving SAR procedures.
For instance, combinations of minimum training, certifications, credentialing for County SAR coordinators could be raised. The thresholds when the State Police take charge of the search could be set or improved. Most Counties probably need no help, and just do fine with the current setup.
The Statewide SAR coordinator should have the Governor’s support to make this happen. I’ll bet the State has a great record for SAR results overall, but something fell apart on this one search. Maybe just a few tweaks are necessary statewide, once the specific leadership problem is fixed. The Mt.Hood search for lost climbers now underway shows how professional a search can be. An amazing, well coordinated, dedicated effort. So the talent is there in abundance.
Some stats: http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/docs/sar/sar_annual_report_2005.pdf
95% of searchs which locate missing people on land are completed within 24 hours. 2005 SAR Report Oregon, Chart, page 53.
Josephine County had about 10 searchs (missions) for Missing Persons, Beacons, + Rescues during 2005. 2005 SAR Report, page 20. (note there is a higher number of 38 but these include 12 training missions, evidence searches, civic stuff, etc.) Unbudgeted expenditures in at least the Josephine County 2005 budget don’t seem to be a problem from the charts. (just $40 for food). The county had an impressive 7200 hours of volunteer work, by the Sheriff’s SAR team, dog handlers, mountain rescuers, etc. Magnificent.
Statewide (2005) SAR Report page 7 + 33, “from the chart, we can see that 86% of all SAR missions ended with all subjects recovered alive.” The subject stayed lost (3%) or was found dead (9%) or multiple (one dead,one alive–1%) or not reported (1%) in the remainder of searches.
Since almost 90% of searches are for Oregon residents, hopefully the very few local residents who do, will complain less about in state/ out of state.
Sunday, December 17, 2006, Oregonian.
“About 730 people got lost or needed rescue in Oregon last year. Only 24 were climbers, and fewer than 12 percent came from out of state.” Susan Nielson in Oregonian. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/susan_nielsen/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166234137153910.xml&coll=7
Also from Susan’s great column, “As far as I know, nobody charges and nobody wants to,” says Georges Kleinbaum, the [Oregon]state search and rescue coordinator. If people worry about getting billed, he explains, they’re more likely to delay calling for help, whether for an injured companion, missing friend or lost child.”
Here is the site for his annual Oregon SAR reports, etc. http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
I hope we hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS. IMHO they need to review signage throughout their inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest intersections and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe they already do something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.
So here is Mr. Georges Kleinbaum public info from his annual report. Hope it is still current.
If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or critiques of this report, please send them to:
Search and Rescue Coordinator
Oregon Emergency Management
P.O. Box 14370
Salem, OR 97309-5062
You may also contact the State Search and Rescue Coordinator by e-mail at:
gkleinba@oem.state.or.us
63 - Paul, yes, it does look like most current articles refer to it the way you said Galice to Agness - there have been just enough variations (the biggest one being the one that I mentioned finding in post #50 where mailtribune.com article refers to it as only FS 23) to make it a little unclear for those of us not familiar with it. Whatever the locals say is good enough for me - wherever it actually starts, the Kim’s definitely wound up off of it.
Paul I think your’s is the most common usage but reading my own old posts I also made the mistake of implying that the Merlin-Galice Road = Bear Camp Road because I thought they were used interchangeably. I’ve been up to Galice about a dozen times over the years for rafting, further when getting shuttled back from wilderness rafting trips.
Part of the confusion is “Bear Camp Route” which would almost always mean Merlin exit of I-5 to Gold Beach on 101 VS the “Bear Camp Road” which technically is probably ONLY NF23 though I’m still not sure about that.
Google online mapping, I think wrongly, shows a “Bear Camp Road” shooting to the right near junction of the BLM road up from Galice and NF23. There was talk of this as a detour and I’m anxious to get up there in the spring to see the layout and also hike into Big Windy Creek.
Here’s part of the response I got from BLM. The first part of the letter just reiterates what BLM has already told the press. I have to say, that whether the BLM used to close and lock that gate or not, and for whatever reason a BLM employee did not lock it and follow up, the BLM is doing an excellent job of keeping the public informed. And they are looking forward to how improvements can be made.
“In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern
Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of
experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road
#34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to
those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for
future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
roads provide public access.”
Excellent start by BLM and good job by you Susan. Smiles.
glad to hear that susan. But from my thinking, no one has pointed the finger enough at BLM/ National Forest. I think they actually know they should be doing more in that area and it IS their responsibility. I think they must be embarassed and relieved that more people are talking about SAR and Josephine County than them.
I’m very happy either way, that they realize this.
On MSNBC…
Was the search for James Kim mismanaged?
Dec. 18: New details are emerging about the search and rescue operation for the California father and husband, who died trying to find help for his wife and daughters in the Oregon wilderness. NBC’s Jennifer London reports.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??f=00&g=21b85ef0-68e1-41a0-91a5-d4e4a01113f0&p=hotvideo_m_edpicks&t=m5&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16262193/&fg=
Re: #70 If link does not work…
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm
Then select video.
Joe - I will be most interested to hear your account of what the Windy River drainage is like. I’ve done day hikes up several of the drainages from the Rogue (though never Big W.) and they are arduous, to say the least. If we get a permit again I will likely try to go BW, but my impression is you can’t get far before there is a cliff.
Bob H. has disappeared, I was hoping to hear from him how the Oregonian article has resonated in the local community.
ps. susan. my thinking is also that….blm/national forest…well that is what it is….national.
I think we all have a right to weigh in on that. Can you tell me who you contacted/emailed? I wouldnt mind adding my two cents, whether or not they read it.
70 - Thank you for the link, Gayle.
I know that Kati Kim likes to write - so maybe one day
she will write the story and the course of events as she best remembers it. But being that it was dark - and not just dark but ‘up in the mountains dark’ and snowing,
being that they were taken by such surprise at the actual conditions up there, and that it all led up to such trauma -who knows how accurate or detailed her memory witll be. Also, she may not choose to be interviewed or write about it. And I respect whatever choices she makes.
It seems to me that even though there were warning signs -
they thought they were just warning signs, and they didn’t
expect the conditions to be that serious at that time of
year in Southern Oregon.
I read one quote where she said “it just got out of control
on the road.”
72- BLM email is Michael_Campbell@blm.gov
I just emailed him back with Bob H’s suggestion about gates on either end, that say road closed-local traffic only, but it can be driven around, so locals can use it, but others realize there is no thru traffic.
I think BLM has handled themselves well. They reported the vandalism. Then they reported their mistake, that it was not vandalism. And now they are looking into solutions.
It is too bad it was not locked on November 1. But like I have said before, no matter how many gates and signs, and no matter how smart we are, people are people, we make mistakes, we get lost. Someone will get lost there again, according to that article on Sunday, most likely a local, so Josephine county still has a lot of work to do on their coordination and communication.
I agree with you. But no one has mentioned the National Forest at all really, and I do believe they are responsible for maps of that area. I will contact them.
76, Thanks, that reminded me about my idea for the map signs for the logging roads, with the “you are here” dots, I just emailed him that suggestion as well.
A process redesign for the BLM gate near Bear Camp Rd.
Presently, the gate is locked closed on or around 1 Nov. From past posts the lock or locks have been cut so people could gain access during the ‘closed’ season for purposes of hunting, snow mobile riding or cross country skiing, etc.
The before mentioned has failed and seems unnecessary by locals who want to utilize the area during the winter.
Proposal, have the gate locked OPEN by the BLM. When it is deemed safe, the gate can be latched in the open position until winter. The gate should be operable by locals wanting to use the area in the winter. This new gate would remain open for approx 30 seconds (allowing one vehicle to pass) before a self closing device, passively returns it to the closed position. A sign on the gate could indicate DEAD END or local traffic only.
From this I’m assuming the people who previously cut through the locked gate would be happier. Additionally assuming, a closed gate was message enough to out of area travelers wishing to proceed to the coast.
This seems like a relatively cheap approach and an easy pilot study for future applications.
yes, and its one of the best ideas, and inexpensive to boot. your right that people will still get lost, but this could help so many people that do, or help them not to get lost.
but, I do beleive we need to contact the national forest specifically, or it would be a joint project between the blm/national forest. I am not completley sure how the two split responsiblities but I know the national forest does mapping or at least provides maps.
sorry, my post (79) is referring to (77)
Great work guys!
PacNWer, I was being smart alec & picking at you - of course I know they are always on duty, sheesh…
I wonder if any changes in the confusing signage at the NF 23 / BLM 34-8-36 junction have been made, YET?
Would seem an imperative, simple, common sense remedial matter but I wouldn’t be surprised if it remains now as before.
Locked gates on public roads restrict the use of those roads to the public who WANT to use them.
If the signs at that junction were large and appropriately positioned a locked gate would not be required.
RE: 85,86 Kip
Hi Kip! I had wanted to thank you for:
797] Much of what I have been thinking and feeling during the unfolding of this tragedy you have expressed very well. . Your passionate and caring nature comes through loud and clear. I am reminded of James. Thanks Lisa.
Comment by Kip | December 16, 2006
I was wondering if you knew James directly or indirectly?
Of course it’s up to you whether you want to say anything
about that or not. I was just curious.
Mostly, I had wanted to thank you, and then I didn’t know if you were still reading.
Kip, I am neutral on gates on roads.
I am most frustrated with the lack of direction there seems to be on that road, and the national forest and blm clearly have responsiblities in that area. Then, when someone gets in trouble up there its up to Josehpine County to act!
I liked Bob’s idea on the gates (seemed very reasonable) but like I said, I’m neutral.
The thing is, it sounds terribly easy to get lost up there, and its not normal to have so little help to travelers, and we are talking about federal land, locals might know their way around but even they have had trouble from what I have read. Come on National Forest and BLM give the people some tools to work with so they dont get into trouble!!!!!!!!!
I mean, look at everyone having trouble even with the roads naming convention!!! This is not good or normal!!! I feel this needs to be addressed by the national forest and blm.
Okay, I have said that enough, thanks for listening.
Check this out, brief but intriguing…looks like they’ve stirred up the hornets nest, i.e. ” Law enforcement agencies that were involved in the search have challenged the article’s claims. ”
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121806_news_kim_search_debacle_.20ecb8d1.html
#76, if Mrs. Kim likes to write, then let’s hope she likes to write the truth. “It just got out of control out there?” Sorry, not good enough. That woman’s got some explaining to do:
1. Were they aware of the winter storm forecast?
2. They had lived in Eugene. Were they aware of the standard routes to the coast? Did they ever intend to take Hwy. 42 or were they set on Bear Camp Road as a shortcut even before they “missed” the Hwy. 42 exit?
3. They had brunch in Portland but didn’t get to Roseburg until 8 p.m. even though it’s a three-hour drive there. What took them so long?
4. There was a rain/snow mix falling when they ignored the first warning sign. Snow was falling when they ignored the next two warning signs. Why did they keep going?
5. Were they so focused on getting to that resort in Gold Beach that they allowed themselves to ignore obvious warnings?
6. They used an ODOT map, and you can’t see Bear Camp Road on that map without spotting the warning label, “This route closed in winter.” What did they think about the warning?
7. When did they get gas that day?
8. They didn’t even have rain clothing let alone snow clothing. They had lived in Eugene for several years. Come on, what’s up with that?
9. As they ignored all these warnings, did they never think about their two children? Mr. Kim was 35 years old and she is 30 years old. They are allegedly “brilliant,” and they are not a couple of kids.
So, Mrs. Kim, do write. And do tell the truth. Thank you!
86, I agree, Bob’s suggestion that there are gates at both ends of Bear Camp Road, they say no thru traffic, but they only close one lane, so you can drive around them for local traffic. Add to that those map signs with the little red dots, for the locals that get lost or the tourists that ignore the closed gates and then get lost.
To the extent that improvements are made to Bear Camp Rd., government entities — the BLM, probably — might wind up assuming a bunch of liabilities implied by treating Bear Camp differently than other roads. This begs the question of whether or not to improve Bear Camp Rd into a state highway equivalent to Hwy. 38 or Hwy. 42.
Of course, you’d wind up with a state highway running between two wilderness areas. But it would do much to assure that future clueless travelers wouldn’t be stranded, because it would be better marked, have smoother grades and better maintenance.
This might be the answer: Rip up some of the last remaining wilderness so as not to endanger any more brilliant people.
Lisa, Hello! you ask if I knew James? .. no, not much more than I know you but sometimes that’s enough for essences to sparkle through
As the Kims were so stupid and incompentent, they should’ve just stayed home & never go anywhere.
I know, up to a certain point, it would be helpful to know about the Kims thought process and actions, but there is also a point where it just plain doesn’t matter. How about how many times they stopped to go to the restroom, they took too long eating, they ate the wrong things - knowing they were going to be traveling…etc. etc.
When you travel with two little kids, especially one being a baby, there are certain things which you are must take, these things take up a lot of room, abiet, rain coats, etc. don’t take up much room. Also, some people pack for unforseen and some pack just for the moment. This is the difference in people. And don’t even go into the unprepared stuff, that has been covered over & over.
Susan - re:91 - The road is only one lane.. If you gate one lane, the road is fully gated
I’ve said this before, there are side access roads that could meet Bear Camp road past the gate.. You don’t even have to lock the gate if one is installed, just engineer a way to make sure it self closes. There is a 2 mile stretch about 8 miles from galice where the road really starts the climb to Bear Camp - those 2 miles are almost a 10% grade. I’d say a gate at the bottom of this would make sense.
People can take side roads to detour back around (just a couple miles of detour) or gate the road and have a 10″ wide space to go around. The presense of the gate will prevent the unwary people trying to go to the coast but people willing and capable to navigate can still get through.
There are more than a few less remote, less dangerous roads in the state that are gated - the only access is made available by foot/ski or snowmobile.
RE: 95
That sounds like a good idea.
#94, I couldn’t care less what they ate or how many times they stopped to go to the bathroom. I don’t think it’s a crime that they were late getting to Roseburg. It’s probably the least important of my questions, but the answer would help round out the picture.
Knowing where they were going is a big issue, and several of my questions bear on it. If they packed for the moment, there’s no crime in that, either, but they sure as hell had no business on a snowy mountain road in a storm that any fool had to have seen right outside the car windows.
In fact, James Kim had to open his car door to be able to drive. Wouldn’t you think that he’d have known is was “winter?” I am not one bit forgiving of the undersheriff who failed to answer his phone during a football game, nor am I inclined to be too forgiving to the Kims.
One mistake or two mistakes, okay. But those people racked up a very long list of misjudgments that, when taken together, constitute negligence and gross irresponsibility. The SAR team should have gotten them out of there, but they should have never been there in the first place.
And yes, if people are going to be as stupid as the Kims were, then they’d be better off staying home.
Also, Re: 93
Thanks Kip! That’s true - I love that!
PacNWer - I think your name should be “packin grrrrr”…
But really are you able to discuss these issues without
insulting people?
Why do you do it? Why does it interest you?
Pac, how about if we say you are right, the Kims made mistakes, no one on this forum has done a single thing to solve or improve the situation, we are just here to make ourselves feel better. You won. Now please move along and start your next fight elsewhere.
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the sheriff for the mount hood rescue states that the state of oregon has given him EVERY RESOURCE AVAILABLE and the US military at his disposal.
I guess it just takes calling…. that doesnt sound like a money thing to me.
RE: 89
Thanks Paul, that’s interesting. It sounded
like the article really got it right. I wonder
what the law enforcement protests are.
89-Paul, thank you for the link. Interesting. I’m curious, too, where LE believes the article is incorrect. It definitely did seem to explain quite a bit and match up well from what we know. Once again, if they do have a different side of the story to tell, I’d sure love to hear it - maybe that article will prompt them to do so (but probably not).
Re: 102 Tara
That’s true. I do remember hearing the undersherriff
saying in one of the press conferences that ‘we don’t have
a lot of money here in Josephine County’- making it sound
like that was one of the reasons why they weren’t doing
more. So, I don’t know - maybe they didn’t realize what
resources could really be at their disposal? I know that
almost seems to give them too much of an excuse for not doing more. Sara R definitely didn’t call in those heat seeking helicopters.
I wonder why she didn’t. I guess at that point she wasn’t
convinced they were stranded in the area? And thought she might look foolish for requesting such a large operation?
I e-mailed the link to yesterdays Oregonian article to the reporters at the San Fran Chronicle who wrote the 12/10 article. Bigger paper, in theory more resources to investigate with, lots of local interest down there, you would think they would want to know more, but I have not heard back yet.
The [i]San Francisco Chronicle[/i] is a good choice for you, because they’ve fully bought into the James Kim, American Hero line and therefore will be happy to ignore the Kim family’s irresponsibility while magnifying that of the SAR managers.
Lisa - the only reference Anderson made to “not being a wealthy county” was in response to the question “why doesn’t Josephine County have any copters up.” They don’t have helicopters period. That doesn’t excuse not utilizing the military birds in a timely manner (as the Oregonian article alleged) but he wasn’t making an excuse for their efforts.
Going back to the football game/phone call thing.. I wonder what the expectation of an “undersheriff” is to be available for calls on their day off. I’m somewhat sympathetic to allowing law enforcement officers days off where they are 100% free from the stress of work - it’s a stressful job - I believe the demands of the job require uninterrupted time off. The Oregon Live article doesn’t shed a good light on him there.
105-Lisa, that’s one that I really wonder about, too, the Natl Guard helicopters just sitting there in Salem for two nights waiting for the call that Sarah Rubrecht never made, even though they were actively searching in that area by then. Was there something wrong with the flow of information so that Sarah Rubrecht didn’t receive it, such as the report from the couple who was not able to complete their assignment to check that road where tire tracks (and bear tracks) were seen? Did she have info but just not know that the Natl Guard heat-seeking helicopters were available to her (though Curry County seemed to know and did use them)? If that’s the case, did her boss, Brian Anderson also not know that they were available? Or his boss? Again, questions I doubt will ever be answered, but just that piece alone is plenty damning and says a lot about how screwed up the supposed “coordination” was.
108-Spencer, I wondered that, too, about the day off. It’s kind of like Detective Weinstein of Portland Police being out sick the day - I do think that all people need to have their days to be sick or watch a game, but someone else needs to be available to respond in their absence - considering these are life and death issues. What about Brian Anderson’s boss, presumably the sheriff? Or even someone else superior to Rubrecht? Nobody dies if I’m not at my desk, but we still have people cover in others’ absences.
Sorry, not takin’ the bait PacMan.
As a lifelong resident of the Northwest who is proud of the largely warm, friendly and humanitarian spirit of those who live here, I think your chosen name is an insult to the region.
(62) putz
(90) putz
(92) putz
(97) putz
(100) susan why don’t we just call him a putz?
(107) putz
Hey putz enough of your useless comments and insults. Give it up already. Why don’t you just pour yourself a nice tall glass of STFU and go back “Observing”.
108-Spencer, here’s where the Oregonian did show Anderson in a more sympathetic light:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1165652726218920.xml&coll=7&thispage=1
I was a little surprised by the difference between the older article and the one on Sunday in terms of how each portrayed Anderson.
(102) yes…all it would have taken was a phone call. Maybe Sara R. thought whomever she would have to call would be busy watching a game or something and wouldn’t answer the phone!
(112) Different report perspectives…it is good that the reporters in the same paper can have different views…not something you would see out the NY Times…
(109) Maggie it borders on criminal negligence…
Re: 106 Paul
That’s a great idea Paul! I would think they
would be very interested, because there was
so much interest in the story down there.
Re: 108 Spencer
Thanks for clarifying the context of that quote.
I still think when such a big case is going on - an
emergency - a crisis search and rescue - all Law
Enforcement should be available for communications. Even more so because it was his last week. It’s not like he was far from a break. It just sounds like a very selfish incompetent un-sherriff-like thing to do.
One of the real questions I have, that again can’t be
proven but I would like to hear explanations of, is why
there were hotspots in the drainage Monday night, and
when they went to them Tuesday they found a trail of clothes, but then they’re guessing he died Monday?
How do you explain that?
116: Bears or Deer - either one would leave a heat signature that could easily be interpreted as a man, and there are plenty of both in the Rogue River Wilderness. It would not be unusual in the least for either animal to go sniff at the left items, thinking there might be food. Both are aclimatized to humans from all the rafters/kayakers on the Rogue River.
I just can’t see him surviving longer than 2 nights, the coroner speculated the same, and that is meant with no disrespect to him or his effort in any way.
Who is the SHERIFF?
Re #33+: I emailed Oregonian reporter Peter Sleeth to ask: “What exactly did the Kims do at the intersection where BLM 34-8-36 and NF 23 fork? … In your investigative reporting, did you learn anything that might shed light on just what they Kims did (and knew) at this critical fork?”
He replied: “I cannot tell you the answer to that, as only Kati Kim knows, and she is not talking. My hunch is they simply took the right instead of the left at the Y in the road. I emphasize, however, I do not know.”
EX-SHERIFF DETECTIVE CRASHES INTO HOME, BLAMES FRIEND
http://www.newswithviews.com/Taft/john17.htm
I know this was 2005 but come on.
this just gets better and better.
Southern Oregon Sheriff Tramples Civil Rights Again
he stole a friggin chicken. I dont think the sheriffs department has benn busy or training.
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/05/06/09/worden.htm
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/03/29/worden.htm
How is Valdez involved in this story? I know Anderson is, but …
hes the previous sheriff…. he had to be responsible for training in some manner
testifies to the organization of the department
Um… eh hem. Excuse me, Frances. But I’m from the Medford forum, and I am not included in “a pack of your followers as on the message board Joe linked to.” That was pretty rude. I have a mind of my own, and you should not lump over 1,000 people at Medford forum into one group. I believe that would be “over-generalization”. Thank you.
Re: 117,118 Paul
Yes, I hadn’t thought that the animals would want
to sniff them but that makes sense as a possibility.
Still, there were not hotspots on Tuesday.
It would be really informative if we could get the
perspective of some of the ground searchers,
like the Oregon Mountain Rescuers. I would
like to know what the strategy was.
Thanks, I know you meant no disrespect. I still just
think it was Tuesday. And although I’m not basing that
on what the first responder said - the fact that it looked
like it hadn’t been that long, could be significant.
It’s just frustrating because there were so many missed
opportunities to find them earlier.
Okay- clarification Valdez- I dont know he previously worked in the sheriff department. The sheriff involved in both of those ridiculous news stories (link above) is
Sheriff David H. Daniel. On the Josephine COunty Website David Daniel is listed as Sheriff. It is possible he resigned as it appears theres alot of controversy surrounding him. One website calls him a liability to the state of oregon for mishandleing the department.
Sorry I got sidetracked on this…. I really wanted to know who was sheriff and man I got more than I bargained for.
okay this is it. Ill stop… but IF he is still sheriff:
“GRANTS PASS, Oregon — What do you do if you’re the sheriff of Josephine County and your budget is being cut due to an economic recession? If you’re David H. Daniel, you remodel your office; it’s good therapy for the blues. That’s right, you get new wallpaper and have a custom made desk and get new furniture. It cost this reporter $18.61 in cash to ferret out his information from a reluctant sheriff. It took a sheriff’s office employee one-hour to pull three invoices out of a file. One hour to find three invoices? The remodeling of Daniel’s office cost taxpayers $2,962. Daniel had so much fun spending this money he also had the Cave Junction office remodeled for $660. The total costs were $3,622. If Dave were a good steward of taxpayers’ money during this time of economic recession, he could have bought a nice oak desk at a county auction. There were reportedly several of these desks that went for $6 dollars each. Daniel gave his used furniture to a struggling deputy district attorney. Interestingly, the furniture was good enough for someone else but not good enough for Daniel. Daniel is often referred to as the million-dollar sheriff. “
Tara you should be a detective…you find anything and everything
Giddy up!
Re: 129
No - that’s interesting Tara - investigational research
can be very helpful. And that would make sense why there
hasn’t been an official sheriff.
A little Josephine County Sheriff history…
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=121
Josephine County SAR info…
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
2006 Jospehine County Election results… Anderson lost to Gil Gibertson, and David Daniel did not run.
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/page.asp?navid=185
BTW, I am not the ‘Gayle’ married to David Daniel that I read about in his history page at the Sheriff’s website.
Re: 133-136
Very interesting. Thanks, Gayle!
ALright… my guess is that David Daniel resigned and Gil Gibertson’s term hasnt started yet (or Anderson wouldnt have been there) and Anderson must have been acting sheriff??
So, glenn (#111), did you learn a new swear word today?
D.H. (#127) you mean you’re not my “follower?” I’m just crushed, I’ll tell ya!
tara (#130), what possible difference does it make if some sheriff’s office got remodeled? Is that what you call using the resources of the Internet to aid in SAR?
packrash, no one suggested turning bear camp into a state highway, and I definitley didn’t beg the question, or hope for you to beg the question, answer it, and cry about it all at once.
Asking for better signage and maps of the national forest and blm in that area, is in line, in that most of the federal areas I have been to, well, I made it out alive, and as you can tell, I am not that smart. So they must be doing something right with signage and maps in most federal areas.
Tara,
(139) No actually PacNWer u said u were going to stay away for a week…u didn’t…guess we just can’t trust much of what u say.
Since you brought up post (130) I think all of the expenditures during the last 5 years should be audited. Maybe some of the money could have been better spent on preparing the organization to do what it is supposed to do…who knows what they could find?
Pretty much everyone involved in this thread wants to fix the obvious problems in JC so that no one else has to loose their life. You are the only one that I see here that wants to deflect the issue - you are connected to the problem somehow and instead of fixing it you want everyone to assume the role of an ostrich - just stick our heads in the ground.
Well we are sticking all of our heads into the details and we are peeling back this onion and every day more and more sees the day of light. God willing someone with some real leadership will step up in JC and fix what is broken.
thanks for the links, sorry hit submit too fast. see, I’m such an IDIOT!
(140) - make bear camp into a toll road. that way there is a record of everyone that goes in…on the opposite side you can reconcile their ticked and all the money can go to SAR.
It would even create a couple more jobs!
now were putting our heads together glenn! toll road, I like it. Maybe an elevated oasis with a mcdonalds and starbucks right in the middle too.
Wondering question - I won’t have time to go back and re-read all post until later in the week, so maybe some of you can help me remember as there’s just so much infomation.
When did the first helicopters get up in the air? Did I read somewhere that it was Friday that Katie said they burned their last tire? Isn’t smoke from a tire fire very visible? I remember as a kid, we used to burn tires for heat & light when we were sleigh riding (one night my brother got a sleigh runner right through his thigh - opps, we shouldn’t have been sleigh riding, especially at night -irresponsible) & the smoke which came from those tire fires was massive.
Maybe a gas station with maps….
Frances I am not sure about the days, but I know she said they burned one, and then they burned all three at once to try to make a lot of smoke.
An interesting article about Undersheriff Anderson… May give some insight to his attitude.
http://http://www.usobserver.com/archive/oct-06/images/usobserver-issue14.pdf
More on the Sheriff and Undersheriff…
http://www.usobserver.com/archive/may-06/anderson-complaint.html
I hope Kati writes her thoughts specifically to you P-fed and I hope she is not bound like we are to shreds of respect, to keep ourselves somewhat inline because we are participating in someones blog, not unlike uninvited guests. I’ve got a pretty good idea glenn knows a few more swear words…
I hope Kati tells you exactly what she was and is thinking, if she is ever to read the things you have written and assumed about her and her family.
She owes you no explanation, of anything, ever. period. Who is she accountable to here? NO ONE. Time to accept it and move on with your life.
I had not read this article until tonight… Covers the Kim story with tidbits of info I had not read elsewhere.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003470308_ordeal10.html
Gayle.
thanks. wow. geez.they had no idea how to handle this situation.
Gayle (150)
that paints a different picture entirely.
Re: 148
Wow! Thanks Gayle! Talk about dysfunction and incompetence!
I didn’t have a good feeling about Brian Anderson when
I saw him at the press conferences. It just seemed to me
that he had some real integrity issues. And now here is
proof…
hey- was it a sar team that first spotted james or a local?
#127 - D.H. You’re right, am so sorry. After about four days with nearly no sleep - not because of this but because of my home responsibilites & during free time had no engery to do anything but sit at computer, and yes, being very emotional about this, I’ve made several mistakes I shouldn’t have made & found it proper to apologize on several occassions. Now, after finally getting a good night’s sleep, the article about the mess up
seemes to relieve some of my anger, at least the info is out there and someone is paying attention - I hope I have a better head on me now.
Gayle & Tara & Suan,Robz, Paul, good job!
Spencer, the idea of a gate, but a space on the size just large enough for snow mobiles,etc. but not large enough for a car/truck - have I got that right? That’s sounds like the best idea to me as even a gate that was supposed to shut automatically - well, let’s face it, there are going to be those who prop it to stay open or it could even get hung up in snow, etc.
Glen, yes it does border on criminal negligence especially after reading the link that Gayle provided about the standards for the local SAR’s. It would be interesting to see if in the info they gave about being a SAR unit gave info about what resources are available other than what their immediate SAR unit has.
Regarding time off for sherriff’s cops, etc. Yes, sure they do. But, ESPECIALLY in a small community, during an emergency, it’s still their responsibility.
Now to the lighter side:
Glenn, they’re going to need the income as people are going to be afraid to visit that area as (1)tourist aren’t welcome (2) If you run into trouble, if we’re watching a ball game or don’t feel too well, we can’t help you
Naw, forget gating the road, just gate the community as they want outsiders to stay out!
Hey, ya’ll come to WV - we may be barefooted, toothless hillbillies, but we’ve got snow sking, snow boarding,
http://www.skiingwv.com/
white water rafting, http://www.wvaraft.com/
world known top class hotel,
http://www.greenbrier.com/site/
all the mountains you wanna hike,
bungie jumping off bridges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_Gorge_Bridge
And to beat it all, we welcome & appreciate our tourist.
And lastly but by no means any where near leastly - well yea, maybe so, Pacman, putz.
(146) maybe a gas station with everyone saying…Don’t take this road, don’t take this road!!! Were all gonna die!!!
(150-152) Gayle and Tara you guys should start a detective agency.
And Tara don’t worry even though Gayles “claims” she isn’t Daniel’s wife…she will be an asset in the investigation
(154) Chopper jock hired by Mr Kim spotted James Kim’s body.
LOL, Glenn (#157). Tara, whaddya think, do you want to try a little Cagney & Lacey? Just kidding.
(155) Oh yeah…scratch that one…everyone should already know that about these roads that look nice and comfy on a map. Just a bunch idiots with cruise control on and looking for the next starbucks!
your right glenn, people need to be alert and slowing down as much as possible up there, I propose 5 starbuck’s one for every 10 miles, as soon as they convert it to a toll road.