Future of Education Part I
My dad (a retired Education Professor from NY State) asked for my view on technology and education in 200 words so I thought I’d post it here too. Feel free to chime in with your views – I’d love to hear them and will pass along to dad, who is presenting education insights to his group:
Over the last 30 years it has been painful for me to watch how technology with all its wonderful educational potential has crept more than lept into the classroom. Even today, where most teachers are comfortable with technology in the classroom, students often remain more expert than teachers with computers.
However on the bright side of the education equation there are many remarkable new technologies and approaches to education that will gradually provide students with richer, more interactive, more international, less expensive, and higher quality forms of education.
Many innovations have already made their way into classrooms including games to help with all subjects, Google search to help children find topics, read news, track down information for reports, and more. Academics now routinely use the internet to research and report more effectively. Many then blog their findings and opinions, leading to a rich interactive experience that helps to blur the often unnecessary lines drawn between classroom and real world or between teacher and student.
The most exciting example I have seen of a very innovative approach under development uses broadband internet, specialized projectors, regular video cameras, a special type of wall sized screen, and microsoft surface computing software. The system will allow groups of children from two different classrooms in different countries to interact in real time as if they were looking at each other through a transparent wall. Even the language barrier can be overcome using translation software so students in China or Europe could join with a class in the USA to learn and share cultural insights or any comments.
President Obama’s Cairo Speech Transcript
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
(Cairo, Egypt)
________________________________________________________________________
REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
ON A NEW BEGINNING
Cairo University
Cairo, Egypt
June 4, 2009
1:10 P.M. (Local)
PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I am honored
to be in the timeless city of Cairo, and to be hosted by two remarkable institutions. For
over a thousand years, Al-Azhar has stood as a beacon of Islamic learning; and for over a
century, Cairo University has been a source of Egypt’s advancement. And together, you
represent the harmony between tradition and progress. I’m grateful for your hospitality,
and the hospitality of the people of Egypt. And I’m also proud to carry with me the
goodwill of the American people, and a greeting of peace from Muslim communities in
my country: Assalaamu alaykum. (Applause.)
We meet at a time of great tension between the United States and Muslims around the
world — tension rooted in historical forces that go beyond any current policy debate. The
relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of coexistence and
cooperation, but also conflict and religious wars. More recently, tension has been fed by
colonialism that denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims, and a Cold War in
which Muslim-majority countries were too often treated as proxies without regard to their
own aspirations. Moreover, the sweeping change brought by modernity and globalization
led many Muslims to view the West as hostile to the traditions of Islam.
Violent extremists have exploited these tensions in a small but potent minority of
Muslims. The attacks of September 11, 2001 and the continued efforts of these
extremists to engage in violence against civilians has led some in my country to view
Islam as inevitably hostile not only to America and Western countries, but also to human
rights. All this has bred more fear and more mistrust.
So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who
sow hatred rather than peace, those who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that
can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. And this cycle of suspicion and
discord must end.
I’ve come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims
around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon
the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition.
Instead, they overlap, and share common principles — principles of justice and progress;
tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.
I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. I know there’s been a lot of
publicity about this speech, but no single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I
answer in the time that I have this afternoon all the complex questions that brought us to
this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly to each
other the things we hold in our hearts and that too often are said only behind closed
doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other;
to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, “Be
conscious of God and speak always the truth.” (Applause.) That is what I will try to do
today — to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my
belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces
that drive us apart.
Now part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I’m a Christian, but my
father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims. As a boy, I
spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the azaan at the break of dawn and
at the fall of dusk. As a young man, I worked in Chicago communities where many
found dignity and peace in their Muslim faith.
As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam. It was Islam — at places
like Al-Azhar — that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the
way for Europe’s Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim
communities — (applause) — it was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the
order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and
printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic
culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished
music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout
history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious
tolerance and racial equality. (Applause.)
I also know that Islam has always been a part of America’s story. The first nation to
recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second
President, John Adams, wrote, “The United States has in itself no character of enmity
against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims.” And since our founding, American
Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, they have
served in our government, they have stood for civil rights, they have started businesses,
they have taught at our universities, they’ve excelled in our sports arenas, they’ve won
Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first
Muslim American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our
Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers — Thomas
Jefferson — kept in his personal library. (Applause.)
So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first
revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and
Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn’t. And I consider it part of my
responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of
Islam wherever they appear. (Applause.)
But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. (Applause.) Just
as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a selfinterested
empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that
the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were
founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled
for centuries to give meaning to those words — within our borders, and around the world.
We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a
simple concept: E pluribus unum — “Out of many, one.”
Now, much has been made of the fact that an African American with the name Barack
Hussein Obama could be elected President. (Applause.) But my personal story is not so
unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in
America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores — and that includes nearly
7 million American Muslims in our country today who, by the way, enjoy incomes and
educational levels that are higher than the American average. (Applause.)
Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one’s religion.
That is why there is a mosque in every state in our union, and over 1,200 mosques within
our borders. That’s why the United States government has gone to court to protect the
right of women and girls to wear the hijab and to punish those who would deny it.
(Applause.)
So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds
within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share
common aspirations — to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with
dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share.
This is the hope of all humanity.
Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words
alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly
in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our
failure to meet them will hurt us all.
For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one
country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are
at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all
nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are
endangered across an ocean. When innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that
is a stain on our collective conscience. (Applause.) That is what it means to share this
world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human
beings.
And this is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a
record of nations and tribes — and, yes, religions — subjugating one another in pursuit of
their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our
interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over
another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners
to it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; our progress must be shared.
(Applause.)
Now, that does not mean we should ignore sources of tension. Indeed, it suggests the
opposite: We must face these tensions squarely. And so in that spirit, let me speak as
clearly and as plainly as I can about some specific issues that I believe we must finally
confront together.
The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism in all of its forms.
In Ankara, I made clear that America is not — and never will be — at war with Islam.
(Applause.) We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave
threat to our security — because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject:
the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as President to
protect the American people.
The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America’s goals, and our need to work
together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with
broad international support. We did not go by choice; we went because of necessity. I’m
aware that there’s still some who would question or even justify the events of 9/11. But
let us be clear: Al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were
innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done
nothing to harm anybody. And yet al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people,
claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive
scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These
are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with.
Now, make no mistake: We do not want to keep our troops in Afghanistan. We see no
military — we seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose our young
men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to continue this conflict. We would
gladly bring every single one of our troops home if we could be confident that there were
not violent extremists in Afghanistan and now Pakistan determined to kill as many
Americans as they possibly can. But that is not yet the case.
And that’s why we’re partnering with a coalition of 46 countries. And despite the costs
involved, America’s commitment will not weaken. Indeed, none of us should tolerate
these extremists. They have killed in many countries. They have killed people of
different faiths — but more than any other, they have killed Muslims. Their actions are
irreconcilable with the rights of human beings, the progress of nations, and with Islam.
The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent is as — it is as if he has killed all
mankind. (Applause.) And the Holy Koran also says whoever saves a person, it is as if
he has saved all mankind. (Applause.) The enduring faith of over a billion people is so
much bigger than the narrow hatred of a few. Islam is not part of the problem in
combating violent extremism — it is an important part of promoting peace.
Now, we also know that military power alone is not going to solve the problems in
Afghanistan and Pakistan. That’s why we plan to invest $1.5 billion each year over the
next five years to partner with Pakistanis to build schools and hospitals, roads and
businesses, and hundreds of millions to help those who’ve been displaced. That’s why we
are providing more than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver
services that people depend on.
Let me also address the issue of Iraq. Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq was a war of choice that
provoked strong differences in my country and around the world. Although I believe that
the Iraqi people are ultimately better off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also
believe that events in Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build
international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible. (Applause.) Indeed,
we can recall the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said: “I hope that our wisdom will
grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be.”
Today, America has a dual responsibility: to help Iraq forge a better future — and to
leave Iraq to Iraqis. And I have made it clear to the Iraqi people — (applause) — I have
made it clear to the Iraqi people that we pursue no bases, and no claim on their territory
or resources. Iraq’s sovereignty is its own. And that’s why I ordered the removal of our
combat brigades by next August. That is why we will honor our agreement with Iraq’s
democratically elected government to remove combat troops from Iraqi cities by July,
and to remove all of our troops from Iraq by 2012. (Applause.) We will help Iraq train
its security forces and develop its economy. But we will support a secure and united Iraq
as a partner, and never as a patron.
And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by extremists, we must never
alter or forget our principles. Nine-eleven was an enormous trauma to our country. The
fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act
contrary to our traditions and our ideals. We are taking concrete actions to change
course. I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I
have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year. (Applause.)
So America will defend itself, respectful of the sovereignty of nations and the rule of law.
And we will do so in partnership with Muslim communities which are also threatened.
The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the
sooner we will all be safer.
The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between
Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.
America’s strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based
upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish
homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied.
Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in
Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald,
which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and
gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed — more than the entire
Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, it is ignorant, and it is
hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction — or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews –
is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of
memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.
On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people — Muslims and
Christians — have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than 60 years they’ve
endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza,
and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to
lead. They endure the daily humiliations — large and small — that come with occupation.
So let there be no doubt: The situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. And
America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity,
opportunity, and a state of their own. (Applause.)
For decades then, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations,
each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It’s easy to point fingers –
for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought about by Israel’s founding, and for
Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its
borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other,
then we will be blind to the truth: The only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides
to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and
security. (Applause.)
That is in Israel’s interest, Palestine’s interest, America’s interest, and the world’s interest.
And that is why I intend to personally pursue this outcome with all the patience and
dedication that the task requires. (Applause.) The obligations — the obligations that the
parties have agreed to under the road map are clear. For peace to come, it is time for
them — and all of us — to live up to our responsibilities.
Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong
and it does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the
whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full
and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center
of America’s founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to
South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It’s a story with a simple truth: that
violence is a dead end. It is a sign neither of courage nor power to shoot rockets at
sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That’s not how moral authority is
claimed; that’s how it is surrendered.
Now is the time for Palestinians to focus on what they can build. The Palestinian
Authority must develop its capacity to govern, with institutions that serve the needs of its
people. Hamas does have support among some Palestinians, but they also have to
recognize they have responsibilities. To play a role in fulfilling Palestinian aspirations, to
unify the Palestinian people, Hamas must put an end to violence, recognize past
agreements, recognize Israel’s right to exist.
At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel’s right to exist cannot be
denied, neither can Palestine’s. The United States does not accept the legitimacy of
continued Israeli settlements. (Applause.) This construction violates previous
agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to
stop. (Applause.)
And Israel must also live up to its obligation to ensure that Palestinians can live and work
and develop their society. Just as it devastates Palestinian families, the continuing
humanitarian crisis in Gaza does not serve Israel’s security; neither does the continuing
lack of opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the Palestinian people
must be a critical part of a road to peace, and Israel must take concrete steps to enable
such progress.
And finally, the Arab states must recognize that the Arab Peace Initiative was an
important beginning, but not the end of their responsibilities. The Arab-Israeli conflict
should no longer be used to distract the people of Arab nations from other problems.
Instead, it must be a cause for action to help the Palestinian people develop the
institutions that will sustain their state, to recognize Israel’s legitimacy, and to choose
progress over a self-defeating focus on the past.
America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, and we will say in public
what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs. (Applause.) We cannot
impose peace. But privately, many Muslims recognize that Israel will not go away.
Likewise, many Israelis recognize the need for a Palestinian state. It is time for us to act
on what everyone knows to be true.
Too many tears have been shed. Too much blood has been shed. All of us have a
responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see
their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of the three great faiths is the
place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home
for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to
mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra — (applause) — as in the story of Isra,
when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, peace be upon them, joined in prayer. (Applause.)
The third source of tension is our shared interest in the rights and responsibilities of
nations on nuclear weapons.
This issue has been a source of tension between the United States and the Islamic
Republic of Iran. For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my
country, and there is in fact a tumultuous history between us. In the middle of the Cold
War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian
government. Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostagetaking
and violence against U.S. troops and civilians. This history is well known. Rather
than remain trapped in the past, I’ve made it clear to Iran’s leaders and people that my
country is prepared to move forward. The question now is not what Iran is against, but
rather what future it wants to build.
I recognize it will be hard to overcome decades of mistrust, but we will proceed with
courage, rectitude, and resolve. There will be many issues to discuss between our two
countries, and we are willing to move forward without preconditions on the basis of
mutual respect. But it is clear to all concerned that when it comes to nuclear weapons,
we have reached a decisive point. This is not simply about America’s interests. It’s about
preventing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region and the
world down a hugely dangerous path.
I understand those who protest that some countries have weapons that others do not. No
single nation should pick and choose which nation holds nuclear weapons. And that’s
why I strongly reaffirmed America’s commitment to seek a world in which no nations
hold nuclear weapons. (Applause.) And any nation — including Iran — should have the
right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the
nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That commitment is at the core of the treaty, and it
must be kept for all who fully abide by it. And I’m hopeful that all countries in the region
can share in this goal.
The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. (Applause.)
I know — I know there has been controversy about the promotion of democracy in recent
years, and much of this controversy is connected to the war in Iraq. So let me be clear:
No system of government can or should be imposed by one nation by any other.
That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the
people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions
of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as
we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an
unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind
and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal
administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn’t steal from the
people; the freedom to live as you choose. These are not just American ideas; they are
human rights. And that is why we will support them everywhere. (Applause.)
Now, there is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear:
Governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure.
Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of
all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree
with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments — provided they
govern with respect for all their people.
This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only
when they’re out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of
others. (Applause.) So no matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by
the people sets a single standard for all who would hold power: You must maintain your
power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and
participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your
people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without
these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Barack Obama, we love you!
PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you. (Applause.) The fifth issue that we must address
together is religious freedom.
Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance. We see it in the history of Andalusia and
Cordoba during the Inquisition. I saw it firsthand as a child in Indonesia, where devout
Christians worshiped freely in an overwhelmingly Muslim country. That is the spirit we
need today. People in every country should be free to choose and live their faith based
upon the persuasion of the mind and the heart and the soul. This tolerance is essential for
religion to thrive, but it’s being challenged in many different ways.
Among some Muslims, there’s a disturbing tendency to measure one’s own faith by the
rejection of somebody else’s faith. The richness of religious diversity must be upheld –
whether it is for Maronites in Lebanon or the Copts in Egypt. (Applause.) And if we are
being honest, fault lines must be closed among Muslims, as well, as the divisions
between Sunni and Shia have led to tragic violence, particularly in Iraq.
Freedom of religion is central to the ability of peoples to live together. We must always
examine the ways in which we protect it. For instance, in the United States, rules on
charitable giving have made it harder for Muslims to fulfill their religious obligation.
That’s why I’m committed to working with American Muslims to ensure that they can
fulfill zakat.
Likewise, it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from
practicing religion as they see fit — for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim
woman should wear. We can’t disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence
of liberalism.
In fact, faith should bring us together. And that’s why we’re forging service projects in
America to bring together Christians, Muslims, and Jews. That’s why we welcome
efforts like Saudi Arabian King Abdullah’s interfaith dialogue and Turkey’s leadership in
the Alliance of Civilizations. Around the world, we can turn dialogue into interfaith
service, so bridges between peoples lead to action — whether it is combating malaria in
Africa, or providing relief after a natural disaster.
The sixth issue — the sixth issue that I want to address is women’s rights. (Applause.) I
know –- I know — and you can tell from this audience, that there is a healthy debate about
this issue. I reject the view of some in the West that a woman who chooses to cover her
hair is somehow less equal, but I do believe that a woman who is denied an education is
denied equality. (Applause.) And it is no coincidence that countries where women are
well educated are far more likely to be prosperous.
Now, let me be clear: Issues of women’s equality are by no means simply an issue for
Islam. In Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, we’ve seen Muslim-majority
countries elect a woman to lead. Meanwhile, the struggle for women’s equality continues
in many aspects of American life, and in countries around the world.
I am convinced that our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons.
(Applause.) Our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity — men
and women — to reach their full potential. I do not believe that women must make the
same choices as men in order to be equal, and I respect those women who choose to live
their lives in traditional roles. But it should be their choice. And that is why the United
States will partner with any Muslim-majority country to support expanded literacy for
girls, and to help young women pursue employment through micro-financing that helps
people live their dreams. (Applause.)
Finally, I want to discuss economic development and opportunity.
I know that for many, the face of globalization is contradictory. The Internet and
television can bring knowledge and information, but also offensive sexuality and
mindless violence into the home. Trade can bring new wealth and opportunities, but also
huge disruptions and change in communities. In all nations — including America — this
change can bring fear. Fear that because of modernity we lose control over our economic
choices, our politics, and most importantly our identities — those things we most cherish
about our communities, our families, our traditions, and our faith.
But I also know that human progress cannot be denied. There need not be contradictions
between development and tradition. Countries like Japan and South Korea grew their
economies enormously while maintaining distinct cultures. The same is true for the
astonishing progress within Muslim-majority countries from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai. In
ancient times and in our times, Muslim communities have been at the forefront of
innovation and education.
And this is important because no development strategy can be based only upon what
comes out of the ground, nor can it be sustained while young people are out of work.
Many Gulf states have enjoyed great wealth as a consequence of oil, and some are
beginning to focus it on broader development. But all of us must recognize that
education and innovation will be the currency of the 21st century — (applause) — and in
too many Muslim communities, there remains underinvestment in these areas. I’m
emphasizing such investment within my own country. And while America in the past has
focused on oil and gas when it comes to this part of the world, we now seek a broader
engagement.
On education, we will expand exchange programs, and increase scholarships, like the one
that brought my father to America. (Applause.) At the same time, we will encourage
more Americans to study in Muslim communities. And we will match promising Muslim
students with internships in America; invest in online learning for teachers and children
around the world; and create a new online network, so a young person in Kansas can
communicate instantly with a young person in Cairo.
On economic development, we will create a new corps of business volunteers to partner
with counterparts in Muslim-majority countries. And I will host a Summit on
Entrepreneurship this year to identify how we can deepen ties between business leaders,
foundations and social entrepreneurs in the United States and Muslim communities
around the world.
On science and technology, we will launch a new fund to support technological
development in Muslim-majority countries, and to help transfer ideas to the marketplace
so they can create more jobs. We’ll open centers of scientific excellence in Africa, the
Middle East and Southeast Asia, and appoint new science envoys to collaborate on
programs that develop new sources of energy, create green jobs, digitize records, clean
water, grow new crops. Today I’m announcing a new global effort with the Organization
of the Islamic Conference to eradicate polio. And we will also expand partnerships with
Muslim communities to promote child and maternal health.
All these things must be done in partnership. Americans are ready to join with citizens
and governments; community organizations, religious leaders, and businesses in Muslim
communities around the world to help our people pursue a better life.
The issues that I have described will not be easy to address. But we have a responsibility
to join together on behalf of the world that we seek — a world where extremists no longer
threaten our people, and American troops have come home; a world where Israelis and
Palestinians are each secure in a state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for
peaceful purposes; a world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all
God’s children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the world we seek. But
we can only achieve it together.
I know there are many — Muslim and non-Muslim — who question whether we can forge
this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of division, and to stand in the
way of progress. Some suggest that it isn’t worth the effort — that we are fated to
disagree, and civilizations are doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real
change can occur. There’s so much fear, so much mistrust that has built up over the
years. But if we choose to be bound by the past, we will never move forward. And I
want to particularly say this to young people of every faith, in every country — you, more
than anyone, have the ability to reimagine the world, to remake this world.
All of us share this world for but a brief moment in time. The question is whether we
spend that time focused on what pushes us apart, or whether we commit ourselves to an
effort — a sustained effort — to find common ground, to focus on the future we seek for
our children, and to respect the dignity of all human beings.
It’s easier to start wars than to end them. It’s easier to blame others than to look inward.
It’s easier to see what is different about someone than to find the things we share. But we
should choose the right path, not just the easy path. There’s one rule that lies at the heart
of every religion — that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
(Applause.) This truth transcends nations and peoples — a belief that isn’t new; that isn’t
black or white or brown; that isn’t Christian or Muslim or Jew. It’s a belief that pulsed in
the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the hearts of billions around the world. It’s
a faith in other people, and it’s what brought me here today.
We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we have the courage to make a
new beginning, keeping in mind what has been written.
The Holy Koran tells us: “O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we
have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.”
The Talmud tells us: “The whole of the Torah is for the purpose of promoting peace.”
The Holy Bible tells us: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of
God.” (Applause.)
The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God’s vision. Now
that must be our work here on Earth.
Thank you. And may God’s peace be upon you. Thank you very much. Thank you.
(Applause.)
The Social Networking Generation(s) enter online “adolescence”
Although Social Networking has been around for some time it has not seen anything like the widespread use until fairly recently. Where technologists and early adopters are trying to figure out the importance of the Twitter explosion to the social networking landscape, millions of regular folks are just now starting to come to grips with how social media is changing our relationships and our personal identities in ways we’re only beginning to understand.
Peggy Orenstein has a thoughtful article at the New York Times today about the how Facebook social networking has affected her and also her concerns about how it will change the way kids grow up. She notes how a Facebooker’s post of a picture of her at 16, and her own Facebook account, brought up many items from her past, even including what appeared to be an inappropriate encounter with a high school teacher who now wants to be a Facebook friend.
She asks:
As a survivor of the postage-stamp era, college was my big chance to doff the roles in my family and community that I had outgrown, to reinvent myself, to get busy with the embarrassing, exciting, muddy, wonderful work of creating an adult identity. Can you really do that with your 450 closest friends watching, all tweeting to affirm ad nauseam your present self?
The answer, as anybody who has been socially networking for long knows, is “sure, Peggy, no problem”. I’d argue that the benefits of what we might call socially “‘transparent living” probably far outweigh the costs, though it’ll be years before we understand how all of this will shake out. From a sociological point of view the most intriguing aspect to me is that the technologies are allowing us to expand our “social networks” well beyond the limits that nature intended.
Evolution works too slowly to anticipate most technological changes so our “tribal” genetics has prepared us well to deal with “hundreds” of personal associations rather than the “thousands” we have with even a modest level of socializing online. I suppose you could argue that a “letter to the editor” in a local paper reaches thousands of people, and in this case can even label you for some time depending on how you express your concerns, but most people don’t write these letters where even in rural communities there are many thousands of people using social networks, creating huge numbers of individual interactions every day.
If biological and social evolution really do limit us to only about 150 close personal associations as some have suggested we’ll probably see that social networks will eventually sort of “implode” as people reduce their connections to more manageable numbers of friends. However I don’t really see this – my guess is that we’ll see humans expand their numbers of contacts well beyond the 150 number, reaching a new plateau that will likely be defined as much by our personal history of real associations as by any biological limits. In fact there’s a lot for the Facebooks and Twitters of the world to do to make it easier to manage our growing social networks, and I’d guess we’ll soon see a lot more slicing and dicing of contacts than we have to date into “close friends”, “family”, “business associates”, etc. As in real life we’ll eventually want to control access to our information from different groups in several ways.
Another intriguing aspect of social networking is what we might call the Social Networking “all your base are belong to us“ problem. Even if a person despises the internet, social interaction, and everything technological they are already likely to appear in some internet venues and will eventually appear in many social networks. Phone records, your home and real estate, business associations and records, permits, and most importantly photographs and videos are flowing online at a rate of billions and billions of bytes per second. This information is increasingly “tagged” by people you may not even know with information about you, usually without your consent or even your knowledge. Reclusive old curmudgeons beware – you could be all over the place in no time by simply owning a home or phone or attending a family function, Community BBQ, or Shriner’s parade.
Assume that a person on Facebook or Twitter has 200 people who read about them and who they read about. Assuming each person in this network creates a *single item* for *private* review – a photo or short comment. This small level of activity – under a minute of action per person – in one sense explodes to generate 200 x 200=40,000 different personal interactions. Although obviously every participant won’t review every possible interaction which would not be possible without a rash of exploding heads, the total amount of interactions in the total Social-Network-O-Sphere is, literally, mind boggling.
How this will affect our feeble human condition? I don’t know, but you can bet your Twitter we’ll all be dealing with it for some time.
Obama Presidential Address February 24, 2009. Text Transcript of Obama Speech
Madame Speaker, Mr. Vice President, Members of Congress, and the First Lady of the United States:
I’ve come here tonight not only to address the distinguished men and women in this great chamber, but to speak frankly and directly to the men and women who sent us here.
I know that for many Americans watching right now, the state of our economy is a concern that rises above all others. And rightly so. If you haven’t been personally affected by this recession, you probably know someone who has – a friend; a neighbor; a member of your family. You don’t need to hear another list of statistics to know that our economy is in crisis, because you live it every day. It’s the worry you wake up with and the source of sleepless nights. It’s the job you thought you’d retire from but now have lost; the business you built your dreams upon that’s now hanging by a thread; the college acceptance letter your child had to put back in the envelope. The impact of this recession is real, and it is everywhere.
But while our economy may be weakened and our confidence shaken; though we are living through difficult and uncertain times, tonight I want every American to know this:
We will rebuild, we will recover, and the United States of America will emerge stronger than before.
The weight of this crisis will not determine the destiny of this nation. The answers to our problems don’t lie beyond our reach. They exist in our laboratories and universities; in our fields and our factories; in the imaginations of our entrepreneurs and the pride of the hardest-working people on Earth. Those qualities that have made America the greatest force of progress and prosperity in human history we still possess in ample measure. What is required now is for this country to pull together, confront boldly the challenges we face, and take responsibility for our future once more.
Now, if we’re honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that for too long, we have not always met these responsibilities – as a government or as a people. I say this not to lay blame or look backwards, but because it is only by understanding how we arrived at this moment that we’ll be able to lift ourselves out of this predicament.
The fact is, our economy did not fall into decline overnight. Nor did all of our problems begin when the housing market collapsed or the stock market sank. We have known for decades that our survival depends on finding new sources of energy. Yet we import more oil today than ever before. The cost of health care eats up more and more of our savings each year, yet we keep delaying reform. Our children will compete for jobs in a global economy that too many of our schools do not prepare them for. And though all these challenges went unsolved, we still managed to spend more money and pile up more debt, both as individuals and through our government, than ever before.
In other words, we have lived through an era where too often, short-term gains were prized over long-term prosperity; where we failed to look beyond the next payment, the next quarter, or the next election. A surplus became an excuse to transfer wealth to the wealthy instead of an opportunity to invest in our future. Regulations were gutted for the sake of a quick profit at the expense of a healthy market. People bought homes they knew they couldn’t afford from banks and lenders who pushed those bad loans anyway. And all the while, critical debates and difficult decisions were put off for some other time on some other day.
Well that day of reckoning has arrived, and the time to take charge of our future is here.
Now is the time to act boldly and wisely – to not only revive this economy, but to build a new foundation for lasting prosperity. Now is the time to jumpstart job creation, re-start lending, and invest in areas like energy, health care, and education that will grow our economy, even as we make hard choices to bring our deficit down. That is what my economic agenda is designed to do, and that’s what I’d like to talk to you about tonight.
It’s an agenda that begins with jobs.
As soon as I took office, I asked this Congress to send me a recovery plan by President’s Day that would put people back to work and put money in their pockets. Not because I believe in bigger government – I don’t. Not because I’m not mindful of the massive debt we’ve inherited – I am. I called for action because the failure to do so would have cost more jobs and caused more hardships. In fact, a failure to act would have worsened our long-term deficit by assuring weak economic growth for years. That’s why I pushed for quick action. And tonight, I am grateful that this Congress delivered, and pleased to say that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act is now law.
Over the next two years, this plan will save or create 3.5 million jobs. More than 90% of these jobs will be in the private sector – jobs rebuilding our roads and bridges; constructing wind turbines and solar panels; laying broadband and expanding mass transit.
Because of this plan, there are teachers who can now keep their jobs and educate our kids. Health care professionals can continue caring for our sick. There are 57 police officers who are still on the streets of Minneapolis tonight because this plan prevented the layoffs their department was about to make.
Because of this plan, 95% of the working households in America will receive a tax cut – a tax cut that you will see in your paychecks beginning on April 1st.
Because of this plan, families who are struggling to pay tuition costs will receive a $2,500 tax credit for all four years of college. And Americans who have lost their jobs in this recession will be able to receive extended unemployment benefits and continued health care coverage to help them weather this storm.
I know there are some in this chamber and watching at home who are skeptical of whether this plan will work. I understand that skepticism. Here in Washington, we’ve all seen how quickly good intentions can turn into broken promises and wasteful spending. And with a plan of this scale comes enormous responsibility to get it right.
That is why I have asked Vice President Biden to lead a tough, unprecedented oversight effort – because nobody messes with Joe. I have told each member of my Cabinet as well as mayors and governors across the country that they will be held accountable by me and the American people for every dollar they spend. I have appointed a proven and aggressive Inspector General to ferret out any and all cases of waste and fraud. And we have created a new website called recovery.gov so that every American can find out how and where their money is being spent.
So the recovery plan we passed is the first step in getting our economy back on track. But it is just the first step. Because even if we manage this plan flawlessly, there will be no real recovery unless we clean up the credit crisis that has severely weakened our financial system.
I want to speak plainly and candidly about this issue tonight, because every American should know that it directly affects you and your family’s well-being. You should also know that the money you’ve deposited in banks across the country is safe; your insurance is secure; and you can rely on the continued operation of our financial system. That is not the source of concern.
The concern is that if we do not re-start lending in this country, our recovery will be choked off before it even begins.
You see, the flow of credit is the lifeblood of our economy. The ability to get a loan is how you finance the purchase of everything from a home to a car to a college education; how stores stock their shelves, farms buy equipment, and businesses make payroll.
But credit has stopped flowing the way it should. Too many bad loans from the housing crisis have made their way onto the books of too many banks. With so much debt and so little confidence, these banks are now fearful of lending out any more money to households, to businesses, or to each other. When there is no lending, families can’t afford to buy homes or cars. So businesses are forced to make layoffs. Our economy suffers even more, and credit dries up even further.
That is why this administration is moving swiftly and aggressively to break this destructive cycle, restore confidence, and re-start lending.
We will do so in several ways. First, we are creating a new lending fund that represents the largest effort ever to help provide auto loans, college loans, and small business loans to the consumers and entrepreneurs who keep this economy running.
Second, we have launched a housing plan that will help responsible families facing the threat of foreclosure lower their monthly payments and re-finance their mortgages. It’s a plan that won’t help speculators or that neighbor down the street who bought a house he could never hope to afford, but it will help millions of Americans who are struggling with declining home values – Americans who will now be able to take advantage of the lower interest rates that this plan has already helped bring about. In fact, the average family who re-finances today can save nearly $2000 per year on their mortgage.
Third, we will act with the full force of the federal government to ensure that the major banks that Americans depend on have enough confidence and enough money to lend even in more difficult times. And when we learn that a major bank has serious problems, we will hold accountable those responsible, force the necessary adjustments, provide the support to clean up their balance sheets, and assure the continuity of a strong, viable institution that can serve our people and our economy.
I understand that on any given day, Wall Street may be more comforted by an approach that gives banks bailouts with no strings attached, and that holds nobody accountable for their reckless decisions. But such an approach won’t solve the problem. And our goal is to quicken the day when we re-start lending to the American people and American business and end this crisis once and for all.
I intend to hold these banks fully accountable for the assistance they receive, and this time, they will have to clearly demonstrate how taxpayer dollars result in more lending for the American taxpayer. This time, CEOs won’t be able to use taxpayer money to pad their paychecks or buy fancy drapes or disappear on a private jet. Those days are over.
Still, this plan will require significant resources from the federal government – and yes, probably more than we’ve already set aside. But while the cost of action will be great, I can assure you that the cost of inaction will be far greater, for it could result in an economy that sputters along for not months or years, but perhaps a decade. That would be worse for our deficit, worse for business, worse for you, and worse for the next generation. And I refuse to let that happen.
I understand that when the last administration asked this Congress to provide assistance for struggling banks, Democrats and Republicans alike were infuriated by the mismanagement and results that followed. So were the American taxpayers. So was I.
So I know how unpopular it is to be seen as helping banks right now, especially when everyone is suffering in part from their bad decisions. I promise you – I get it.
But I also know that in a time of crisis, we cannot afford to govern out of anger, or yield to the politics of the moment. My job – our job – is to solve the problem. Our job is to govern with a sense of responsibility. I will not spend a single penny for the purpose of rewarding a single Wall Street executive, but I will do whatever it takes to help the small business that can’t pay its workers or the family that has saved and still can’t get a mortgage.
That’s what this is about. It’s not about helping banks – it’s about helping people. Because when credit is available again, that young family can finally buy a new home. And then some company will hire workers to build it. And then those workers will have money to spend, and if they can get a loan too, maybe they’ll finally buy that car, or open their own business. Investors will return to the market, and American families will see their retirement secured once more. Slowly, but surely, confidence will return, and our economy will recover.
So I ask this Congress to join me in doing whatever proves necessary. Because we cannot consign our nation to an open-ended recession. And to ensure that a crisis of this magnitude never happens again, I ask Congress to move quickly on legislation that will finally reform our outdated regulatory system. It is time to put in place tough, new common-sense rules of the road so that our financial market rewards drive and innovation, and punishes short-cuts and abuse.
The recovery plan and the financial stability plan are the immediate steps we’re taking to revive our economy in the short-term. But the only way to fully restore America’s economic strength is to make the long-term investments that will lead to new jobs, new industries, and a renewed ability to compete with the rest of the world. The only way this century will be another American century is if we confront at last the price of our dependence on oil and the high cost of health care; the schools that aren’t preparing our children and the mountain of debt they stand to inherit. That is our responsibility.
In the next few days, I will submit a budget to Congress. So often, we have come to view these documents as simply numbers on a page or laundry lists of programs. I see this document differently. I see it as a vision for America – as a blueprint for our future.
My budget does not attempt to solve every problem or address every issue. It reflects the stark reality of what we’ve inherited – a trillion dollar deficit, a financial crisis, and a costly recession.
Given these realities, everyone in this chamber – Democrats and Republicans – will have to sacrifice some worthy priorities for which there are no dollars. And that includes me.
But that does not mean we can afford to ignore our long-term challenges. I reject the view that says our problems will simply take care of themselves; that says government has no role in laying the foundation for our common prosperity.
For history tells a different story. History reminds us that at every moment of economic upheaval and transformation, this nation has responded with bold action and big ideas. In the midst of civil war, we laid railroad tracks from one coast to another that spurred commerce and industry. From the turmoil of the Industrial Revolution came a system of public high schools that prepared our citizens for a new age. In the wake of war and depression, the GI Bill sent a generation to college and created the largest middle-class in history. And a twilight struggle for freedom led to a nation of highways, an American on the moon, and an explosion of technology that still shapes our world.
In each case, government didn’t supplant private enterprise; it catalyzed private enterprise. It created the conditions for thousands of entrepreneurs and new businesses to adapt and to thrive.
We are a nation that has seen promise amid peril, and claimed opportunity from ordeal. Now we must be that nation again. That is why, even as it cuts back on the programs we don’t need, the budget I submit will invest in the three areas that are absolutely critical to our economic future: energy, health care, and education.
It begins with energy.
We know the country that harnesses the power of clean, renewable energy will lead the 21st century. And yet, it is China that has launched the largest effort in history to make their economy energy efficient. We invented solar technology, but we’ve fallen behind countries like Germany and Japan in producing it. New plug-in hybrids roll off our assembly lines, but they will run on batteries made in Korea.
Well I do not accept a future where the jobs and industries of tomorrow take root beyond our borders – and I know you don’t either. It is time for America to lead again.
Thanks to our recovery plan, we will double this nation’s supply of renewable energy in the next three years. We have also made the largest investment in basic research funding in American history – an investment that will spur not only new discoveries in energy, but breakthroughs in medicine, science, and technology.
We will soon lay down thousands of miles of power lines that can carry new energy to cities and towns across this country. And we will put Americans to work making our homes and buildings more efficient so that we can save billions of dollars on our energy bills.
But to truly transform our economy, protect our security, and save our planet from the ravages of climate change, we need to ultimately make clean, renewable energy the profitable kind of energy. So I ask this Congress to send me legislation that places a market-based cap on carbon pollution and drives the production of more renewable energy in America. And to support that innovation, we will invest fifteen billion dollars a year to develop technologies like wind power and solar power; advanced biofuels, clean coal, and more fuel-efficient cars and trucks built right here in America.
As for our auto industry, everyone recognizes that years of bad decision-making and a global recession have pushed our automakers to the brink. We should not, and will not, protect them from their own bad practices. But we are committed to the goal of a re-tooled, re-imagined auto industry that can compete and win. Millions of jobs depend on it. Scores of communities depend on it. And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it.
None of this will come without cost, nor will it be easy. But this is America. We don’t do what’s easy. We do what is necessary to move this country forward.
For that same reason, we must also address the crushing cost of health care.
This is a cost that now causes a bankruptcy in America every thirty seconds. By the end of the year, it could cause 1.5 million Americans to lose their homes. In the last eight years, premiums have grown four times faster than wages. And in each of these years, one million more Americans have lost their health insurance. It is one of the major reasons why small businesses close their doors and corporations ship jobs overseas. And it’s one of the largest and fastest-growing parts of our budget.
Given these facts, we can no longer afford to put health care reform on hold.
Already, we have done more to advance the cause of health care reform in the last thirty days than we have in the last decade. When it was days old, this Congress passed a law to provide and protect health insurance for eleven million American children whose parents work full-time. Our recovery plan will invest in electronic health records and new technology that will reduce errors, bring down costs, ensure privacy, and save lives. It will launch a new effort to conquer a disease that has touched the life of nearly every American by seeking a cure for cancer in our time. And it makes the largest investment ever in preventive care, because that is one of the best ways to keep our people healthy and our costs under control.
This budget builds on these reforms. It includes an historic commitment to comprehensive health care reform – a down-payment on the principle that we must have quality, affordable health care for every American. It’s a commitment that’s paid for in part by efficiencies in our system that are long overdue. And it’s a step we must take if we hope to bring down our deficit in the years to come.
Now, there will be many different opinions and ideas about how to achieve reform, and that is why I’m bringing together businesses and workers, doctors and health care providers, Democrats and Republicans to begin work on this issue next week.
I suffer no illusions that this will be an easy process. It will be hard. But I also know that nearly a century after Teddy Roosevelt first called for reform, the cost of our health care has weighed down our economy and the conscience of our nation long enough. So let there be no doubt: health care reform cannot wait, it must not wait, and it will not wait another year.
The third challenge we must address is the urgent need to expand the promise of education in America.
In a global economy where the most valuable skill you can sell is your knowledge, a good education is no longer just a pathway to opportunity – it is a pre-requisite.
Right now, three-quarters of the fastest-growing occupations require more than a high school diploma. And yet, just over half of our citizens have that level of education. We have one of the highest high school dropout rates of any industrialized nation. And half of the students who begin college never finish.
This is a prescription for economic decline, because we know the countries that out-teach us today will out-compete us tomorrow. That is why it will be the goal of this administration to ensure that every child has access to a complete and competitive education – from the day they are born to the day they begin a career.
Already, we have made an historic investment in education through the economic recovery plan. We have dramatically expanded early childhood education and will continue to improve its quality, because we know that the most formative learning comes in those first years of life. We have made college affordable for nearly seven million more students. And we have provided the resources necessary to prevent painful cuts and teacher layoffs that would set back our children’s progress.
But we know that our schools don’t just need more resources. They need more reform. That is why this budget creates new incentives for teacher performance; pathways for advancement, and rewards for success. We’ll invest in innovative programs that are already helping schools meet high standards and close achievement gaps. And we will expand our commitment to charter schools.
It is our responsibility as lawmakers and educators to make this system work. But it is the responsibility of every citizen to participate in it. And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be community college or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma. And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It’s not just quitting on yourself, it’s quitting on your country – and this country needs and values the talents of every American. That is why we will provide the support necessary for you to complete college and meet a new goal: by 2020, America will once again have the highest proportion of college graduates in the world.
I know that the price of tuition is higher than ever, which is why if you are willing to volunteer in your neighborhood or give back to your community or serve your country, we will make sure that you can afford a higher education. And to encourage a renewed spirit of national service for this and future generations, I ask this Congress to send me the bipartisan legislation that bears the name of Senator Orrin Hatch as well as an American who has never stopped asking what he can do for his country – Senator Edward Kennedy.
These education policies will open the doors of opportunity for our children. But it is up to us to ensure they walk through them. In the end, there is no program or policy that can substitute for a mother or father who will attend those parent/teacher conferences, or help with homework after dinner, or turn off the TV, put away the video games, and read to their child. I speak to you not just as a President, but as a father when I say that responsibility for our children’s education must begin at home.
There is, of course, another responsibility we have to our children. And that is the responsibility to ensure that we do not pass on to them a debt they cannot pay. With the deficit we inherited, the cost of the crisis we face, and the long-term challenges we must meet, it has never been more important to ensure that as our economy recovers, we do what it takes to bring this deficit down.
I’m proud that we passed the recovery plan free of earmarks, and I want to pass a budget next year that ensures that each dollar we spend reflects only our most important national priorities.
Yesterday, I held a fiscal summit where I pledged to cut the deficit in half by the end of my first term in office. My administration has also begun to go line by line through the federal budget in order to eliminate wasteful and ineffective programs. As you can imagine, this is a process that will take some time. But we’re starting with the biggest lines. We have already identified two trillion dollars in savings over the next decade.
In this budget, we will end education programs that don’t work and end direct payments to large agribusinesses that don’t need them. We’ll eliminate the no-bid contracts that have wasted billions in Iraq, and reform our defense budget so that we’re not paying for Cold War-era weapons systems we don’t use. We will root out the waste, fraud, and abuse in our Medicare program that doesn’t make our seniors any healthier, and we will restore a sense of fairness and balance to our tax code by finally ending the tax breaks for corporations that ship our jobs overseas.
In order to save our children from a future of debt, we will also end the tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans. But let me perfectly clear, because I know you’ll hear the same old claims that rolling back these tax breaks means a massive tax increase on the American people: if your family earns less than $250,000 a year, you will not see your taxes increased a single dime. I repeat: not one single dime. In fact, the recovery plan provides a tax cut – that’s right, a tax cut – for 95% of working families. And these checks are on the way.
To preserve our long-term fiscal health, we must also address the growing costs in Medicare and Social Security. Comprehensive health care reform is the best way to strengthen Medicare for years to come. And we must also begin a conversation on how to do the same for Social Security, while creating tax-free universal savings accounts for all Americans.
Finally, because we’re also suffering from a deficit of trust, I am committed to restoring a sense of honesty and accountability to our budget. That is why this budget looks ahead ten years and accounts for spending that was left out under the old rules – and for the first time, that includes the full cost of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. For seven years, we have been a nation at war. No longer will we hide its price.
We are now carefully reviewing our policies in both wars, and I will soon announce a way forward in Iraq that leaves Iraq to its people and responsibly ends this war.
And with our friends and allies, we will forge a new and comprehensive strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan to defeat al Qaeda and combat extremism. Because I will not allow terrorists to plot against the American people from safe havens half a world away.
As we meet here tonight, our men and women in uniform stand watch abroad and more are readying to deploy. To each and every one of them, and to the families who bear the quiet burden of their absence, Americans are united in sending one message: we honor your service, we are inspired by your sacrifice, and you have our unyielding support. To relieve the strain on our forces, my budget increases the number of our soldiers and Marines. And to keep our sacred trust with those who serve, we will raise their pay, and give our veterans the expanded health care and benefits that they have earned.
To overcome extremism, we must also be vigilant in upholding the values our troops defend – because there is no force in the world more powerful than the example of America. That is why I have ordered the closing of the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, and will seek swift and certain justice for captured terrorists – because living our values doesn’t make us weaker, it makes us safer and it makes us stronger. And that is why I can stand here tonight and say without exception or equivocation that the United States of America does not torture.
In words and deeds, we are showing the world that a new era of engagement has begun. For we know that America cannot meet the threats of this century alone, but the world cannot meet them without America. We cannot shun the negotiating table, nor ignore the foes or forces that could do us harm. We are instead called to move forward with the sense of confidence and candor that serious times demand.
To seek progress toward a secure and lasting peace between Israel and her neighbors, we have appointed an envoy to sustain our effort. To meet the challenges of the 21st century – from terrorism to nuclear proliferation; from pandemic disease to cyber threats to crushing poverty – we will strengthen old alliances, forge new ones, and use all elements of our national power.
And to respond to an economic crisis that is global in scope, we are working with the nations of the G-20 to restore confidence in our financial system, avoid the possibility of escalating protectionism, and spur demand for American goods in markets across the globe. For the world depends on us to have a strong economy, just as our economy depends on the strength of the world’s.
As we stand at this crossroads of history, the eyes of all people in all nations are once again upon us – watching to see what we do with this moment; waiting for us to lead.
Those of us gathered here tonight have been called to govern in extraordinary times. It is a tremendous burden, but also a great privilege – one that has been entrusted to few generations of Americans. For in our hands lies the ability to shape our world for good or for ill.
I know that it is easy to lose sight of this truth – to become cynical and doubtful; consumed with the petty and the trivial.
But in my life, I have also learned that hope is found in unlikely places; that inspiration often comes not from those with the most power or celebrity, but from the dreams and aspirations of Americans who are anything but ordinary.
I think about Leonard Abess, the bank president from Miami who reportedly cashed out of his company, took a $60 million bonus, and gave it out to all 399 people who worked for him, plus another 72 who used to work for him. He didn’t tell anyone, but when the local newspaper found out, he simply said, ”I knew some of these people since I was 7 years old. I didn’t feel right getting the money myself.”
I think about Greensburg, Kansas, a town that was completely destroyed by a tornado, but is being rebuilt by its residents as a global example of how clean energy can power an entire community – how it can bring jobs and businesses to a place where piles of bricks and rubble once lay. “The tragedy was terrible,” said one of the men who helped them rebuild. “But the folks here know that it also provided an incredible opportunity.”
And I think about Ty’Sheoma Bethea, the young girl from that school I visited in Dillon, South Carolina – a place where the ceilings leak, the paint peels off the walls, and they have to stop teaching six times a day because the train barrels by their classroom. She has been told that her school is hopeless, but the other day after class she went to the public library and typed up a letter to the people sitting in this room. She even asked her principal for the money to buy a stamp. The letter asks us for help, and says, “We are just students trying to become lawyers, doctors, congressmen like yourself and one day president, so we can make a change to not just the state of South Carolina but also the world. We are not quitters.”
We are not quitters.
These words and these stories tell us something about the spirit of the people who sent us here. They tell us that even in the most trying times, amid the most difficult circumstances, there is a generosity, a resilience, a decency, and a determination that perseveres; a willingness to take responsibility for our future and for posterity.
Their resolve must be our inspiration. Their concerns must be our cause. And we must show them and all our people that we are equal to the task before us.
I know that we haven’t agreed on every issue thus far, and there are surely times in the future when we will part ways. But I also know that every American who is sitting here tonight loves this country and wants it to succeed. That must be the starting point for every debate we have in the coming months, and where we return after those debates are done. That is the foundation on which the American people expect us to build common ground.
And if we do – if we come together and lift this nation from the depths of this crisis; if we put our people back to work and restart the engine of our prosperity; if we confront without fear the challenges of our time and summon that enduring spirit of an America that does not quit, then someday years from now our children can tell their children that this was the time when we performed, in the words that are carved into this very chamber, “something worthy to be remembered.” Thank you, God Bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America.
Debate about Joe the Plumber could not get any dumber
The inane stupidity of the “Joe the Plumber” discussion tells us a lot about how out of touch the campaigns and media are with America, and frankly how little most Americans seem to understand about small business taxes. After listening to CNN’s Lou Dobbs’ take on the situation and hearing McCain say he’s out to help the Joe the Plumbers (implying his tax plan would do more to help plumbers than Obama’s, which is false and almost certainly a campaign lie) I had to challenge the economically senile statements of these two rich guys and chime in with the truth.
My take is that neither left nor right wing seems to be making sense about all this. Joe the Plumber is relevant to the current debate because he is representative of some middle income Americans who make ballpark of 40-80k per year, would actually benefit in the short term from Obama’s tax plans, but don’t share Obama’s sensibilities about how to run country or the idea that even greater levels of deficit spending than McCain is proposing are a good idea. It’s OK for Joe to be for McCain, but if he thinks that is to his tax advantage he is mistaken.
Here’s a better authority than me – Nobel economist Paul Krugman in NYT writing about the plumbing income issues.
So, with average plumbers making about 47k clearly he’s *currently* better off under Obama’s plan if taxes are what we are talking about. But what if he buys the business?
Details are not all that clear but it appears the business Joe wants to buy has 2 plumbers. Let’s assume they also employ one office person and one helper. Even assuming they can bill those plumbers at $100 per hour, the helpers at $50 and everybody works a full 2000 hours per year (this is very unrealistically high work hours for this type of biz – half this would be closer to normal). But even optimistically the biz probably pulls in about 500k per year.
Assuming that employee benefits and payroll taxes are about *half* the billed rate to the two plumbers employees we have 250k labor expense for workers. Add 30k for the office staff and another 50k for advertising, building, insurance, and more (it’s probably twice that, but I’m being very generous to McCain supporters here).
Revenues 500k – Expenses 330k = Taxable income 170k
So even if he buys the joint Joe the Plumber won’t be making 250k. Sure a few plumbing businesses with several workers might be making that, but the small business guys McCain claims he represents would likely be better off under Obama’s tax plans. Most are are mom and pops making far less than 250k.
Lou Dobbs and some McCain folks have *idiotically* asserted that a lot of *plumbers* make 250k. If you believe this there is only one word for you: Stupid. Plumbers rarely bill at over 100 per hour and there are 2000 hours in a year – do the math because even if they have zero expenses they don’t make 250k and those who think they do are really math and business savvy challenged (e.g. Lou Dobbs who has NO business talking business).
Average plumbing salaries in Ohio are under 50k per year – similar to what teachers, police, fireman make.
To me it is sort of pitiful how folks who will pay *more* under McCain are defending his tax plan because they just don’t understand business taxes. It’s fine for a plumber to support McCain but it’s misinformed to think Obama’s the big bad tax man for the middle class.
Joe is not a small business – in fact he’s not even a plumber. He was (probably wrongly) thinking that if he bought the plumbing place he worked for he’d have trouble paying Obama’s taxes, and Obama foolishly just assumed that was true.
Joe may want to vote for McCain if if NON TAX issues like abortion and gun rights are paramount to him and there are many other reasons Joe the Plumber might want to vote for McCain.
Taxes, however, are NOT one of those reasons.
Caveat: There are some capital gains tax issues that complicate a really good analysis of all the details here since they’d come into play much later and it’s not clear to me how either plan would treat sale of small businesses even assuming the plan was still in effect when they were sold.
Caveat 2: Taxes and prosperity are tricky. Some think that taxing the rich inhibits economic development to the degree it reduces *everybody’s* prosperity. e.g. if his job is lost Joe the Plumber makes nothing.
Science on a Sphere
Wow, NOAA has a great educational tool – a large spherical display representing earth, using computers and projectors to animate the display. It is called Science on a Sphere.
Here’s a list of locations that have this.
It looks like a schools could build one of these for themselves, though I’m not clear any have done it and not clear on copyright issues – they say this is not an open source project. It appears the cost would be in the neighborhood of 5-10,000 for the hardware consisting of 4 projectors and 5? computers, but I think the main challenge for schools would be the room. Many schools don’t have a ”spare room” they could easily dedicate to this project and it appears it’s complicated enough that it would be difficult to put up and take down for each lesson.
But what a great concept! A few years ago we visited the Delorme world HQ back east and they had a scale model of earth that was 3 stories high and rotated. But the NOAA Science on a Sphere is better because you could project data and topography and vary the lessons.
Of course as a cheap alternative teachers should (MUST!) get “Google Earth” to all the students they have. Google earth is arguably the best cheap visualization tool ever to hit geography and if you have not seen it get it now - it’s free and fantastic.
Jobs to bad teachers: You should be out of JOBS!
I’m still digesting Steve Jobs comments about educational reform that will likely prove to be controversial. My first reaction is to say amen – he’s talking good stuff and I can only hope educators listen up. Jobs is suggesting two key pieces of educational reform. One is the elimination of textbooks in favor of free online content, regularly updated by experts in the field. Gee, I’d have to say that one is pretty much a no brainer, though I’m worried this won’t be clear to many teachers, too many of whom fear the online educational cornucopia rather than embracing it. This idea is more provocative than it appears at first. Textbooks are part of the insulation we have between the “real world” and school. Online interactive instruction would break this down in very positive ways, not to mention save money and bring unprecedented levels of expertise to students. Textbook: $55. Getting nobel prize winners to interact in real time with high school students across the country? Priceless. I say bring it on, Steve!
The second suggestion is to make it easier to fire bad teachers. I certainly and strongly agree with this in principle, though I’m not sure in practice this style works well in the public sector because it can reduce the morale and productivity of the good teachers and I’m not convinced there are a lot of “bad teachers” out there, especially in the K-12 programs. I’m the son of two teachers, the spouse of a teacher, and friend and relative to perhaps a hundred teachers across the country (I have a very large extended family). Teachers, in my extensive experience, are a good group of hard working folks who almost to a person are primarily and overwhelmingly interested in helping kids.
So, will firing the few bad apples help or hurt? In my talks with teachers it is always striking to me how different the perceptions are of good, hard working folks in the public sector compared to those of us in the private sector. Like Steve Jobs I’m gung ho on the benefits of kicking some major ass when needed. Incompetence should be “rewarded” with a swift boot out the door. However the private sector has this expectation where the public sector does not. Bringing the fear of firing to the education sector could bring unintended consequences such as forcing the good teachers to process more paperwork to “prove” their worth and thus diminishing their ability to teach. I’d want to see proof that “firing bad teachers” will do a lot of good before we go to far in this direction, though clearly we should help put pressure on *all* systems to allow for dealing with incompetence swiftly and mercilessly. That is not ruthless at all because the alternative is far worse as it lets a single bad worker ruin hundreds of children’s lives or thousands of products.
Kim Family Search in Rogue River Wilderness of Oregon comments
Kim Search discussion page ONE
Kim Search discussion page TWO
Comments page THREE is right here.
1,135 Comments »
- The Kim Family Search discussion now spans 3 pages of comments.
You are on page 3 of the comments.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 1:35 am –> | Edit - Yay, a whole new page for another 1000+! Thank you, Joe.
Comment by Maggie | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 1:43 am –> | Edit
- Sigh… I will never catch up…
What were the comments Katie Kim made in her blog about her in-laws? I have looked through here and all I can find is a link which doesn’t work (blog taken down)?
I’ve looked through the net and all I can find is someone said she was kicked out of her in-laws, didn’t say anything else, but the poster was sort of anti, you know? It sure wasn’t a post I’d put in any faith in but as it has been mentioned here, I was wondering.Comment by Frances Baker | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 5:11 am –> | Edit
- To Susan,
I found my reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim - Frances Ill email you the link. shoot me an email at Harley168@hotmail.com
- Good morning and Merry Christmas one and all! Merry Christmas JoCoSAR!
- Good Christmas morning all! Finally got through all the posts from 1126 forward. Whew! The link to Kati’s blog did not work for me either.
This has to be a very difficult time for her.
Comment by Gayle | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 8:37 am –> | Edit
- http://www.yelp.com/topic/zxXvLvoUV7×4qjjyi0sZhQ
Hopefully that one will work…
Comment by glenn | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 8:43 am –> | Edit
- Joe not sure why that link isn’t working…if you type it in it will work…
- Hopefully this one will take you directly to Kati’s blog.
http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=R2NYGnt_yfMadjJ-2Bc1tA
- Thank you, Glenn, you’re a gem. Kati’s first Christmas without James sounds more difficult than I thought.
- Of course it is none of my business (although I suppose her putting it on a public blog does put it out there for public comment) but I had a thought that family life might be pretty rough after this. I’m sure there is a need to blame. (Who decided to keep going? Who decided that James should go out and seek help?) A beloved son is gone. The wife (who seems on the artsy, alternative side, perhaps not the ideal daughter in law in certain eyes) is there as a reminder.
Who knows.
- (12) When my little brother died people in the family all grieved in different ways, some by getting closer, some by pushing away. You never get over a loss like that, and it does take about two years to actually get back your normal mental and emotional and physical and decision making functioning. And anger and blame and guilt are all normal. Hopefully for the children’s sake, both Kati and the in-laws will get some grief counselling. And hopefully they can learn to forgive each others coping skills during this difficult time. Those little girls will need their paternal grandparents more than ever now.
Comment by Susan | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 10:54 am –> | Edit
- I had gone to Kati’s yelp site the day they found James.
That day on the side where it lists little facts
about her, and it says ‘favorite crush’ she had written,
‘Farrell always’ I presumed she meant Will Farrell.
Because she definitely seems to appreciate humor.But I noticed when I looked today, her ‘favorite crush’
was ‘her winged soldier’, and that broke my heart all over
again…Comment by Lisa | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 11:12 am –> | Edit
- May James’ family and Kati find a way to get together in love today. And may the children have comfort and peace today.
Comment by D.H. | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 11:26 am –> | Edit
- (13.) Susan, I hear you and agree. I have lost 2 brothers, one young in 1976 (murdered) and one adult in 2001 (suicide), and one granddaughter in 2006 (suicide) and you are so right. I think often the manner of passing has a lot to do with it, too.
- #13 – Sudden and unexpected deaths, are harder than those seen coming. Couple that with James trying to save the lives of his family and it has to be a very difficult burden. The holidays make it harder as it is so much a time for family. Our family had a sudden loss near Thanksgiving and that holiday never felt the same for the longest time. I would agree with Susan’s comment – it takes a solid two years for any sense of normal to return. Christmas and Thanksgiving are going to be tough holidays for the Kim family for some time to come, but time has a way of healing the deepest of hurts.
Comment by Paul | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 11:47 am –> | Edit
- It’s a long time ago now, but my wife and I lost our youngest son because of cancer when he was 4 years old. Took me 20 years before I was able to share the anguish that I didn’t even know was inside of me. My wife, now x, I don’t think ever got over it. She immersed herself in a spiritual quest that took her away from me and my two young, at the time, boys. She’s still at it. Doing some good work, though, I think.
- Well, she did say “grieving” in laws, seeming to acknowledge that they are not themselves right now. I have to say, though, kicking out the grandkids…ouch.
Lisa, her profile has some other heartbreaking notes, like her last meal, and her most recent read.
- Kip and Susan, my deepest, most heartfelt sympathy to you for your losses.
- Deleted at Lisa’s request…
- Re: 21 addition
At the very end of that I wanted to say:
“And there is nothing to fear with that love, because
it is boundless pure love. It can never be lost – no
matter what. It can always be given, if we choose it.”Re: 19 Yes, I agree joy – I saw them too, so
poignant. - I wasn’t going to say, because I know Joe removed it for good reason, and I think he is far more right to remove it than I was for posting it, but since it’s being discussed anyway, please notice that it did not say “in-laws” plural, so we do not know who the “in-law” was (probably better that way – certainly none of my business, likely not something Kati would want us all chatting about here). Anyway, that’s all from me on this. I’m sorry.
Merry Christmas!
- (23) Hi Maggie…guess I missed something…what was removed?
- [20] thank you Gayle. i’m usually reluctant to say very much about that which I mentioned but I’m glad I did. In a way it’s honouring of little Mark. Often it seems the very best go needlessly and sometimes very difficultly. James’s last hours alive must have been horrible beyond words.
- Re: 21
We can delete that one too later Joe, I know it is
somewhat off topic. And I will look at the last page
and give you the numbers we can delete from there.p.s. Kip – Each experience is very different. I didn’t
mean my experience to have any relation to yours. I
just felt moved to share it as well… - Re: 25
It is my hope and belief that James’ last hours were
not necessarily so difficult. It was my experience with
hypothermia that it shuts you down beyond your will,
and it is very frustrating because you can’t control
or have much say in the condition of your body anymore.But from the fact that he was wearing his backpack
when they found him, and from his position in the
creek he was still on the move. He hadn’t written
any parting notes – it seems to me that he never gave
up, and was trying to the end… - This is what I wrote in my condolences to the Kim
family:“James Kim is a precious man. He Loves You Very Much.
He Will Always Be With You, and he never gave up…[I think it is healing to speak or think of a loved one passed
in the present tense, because they are and should be very present to us
as long as we want and need them to be. This is my impression of James.
I was thinking especially of Kati and the girls. But I have a feeling that
everyone who knew James and cared for him will recognize him in these
words.] - Maggie don’t worry, no big deal.
Since people are interested in the Yelp info and with so many posts about it I’ll leave up the link above though I don’t want to encourage this angle on the discussion because IMHO that stuff is best kept in the family even though it is now in a public posting.
Merry Christmas Everybody. I’m now stuffed and happy because the kids really had a fine time today! Hope you all are enjoying a nice holiday day as well.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 4:59 pm –> | Edit - Joe, you can go ahead and delete (21). I might repost
just the last paragraph. - OK Lisa – I deleted it though it was fine by me. My point before was just trying to have folks keep to the topic of the search and rescue rather than focusing on Kim family private matters.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 7:32 pm –> | Edit
- Yes Joe, thanks! I understand. I think that Christmas
in part, just made people feel more sentimental.I am glad you had a cozy Christmas!
- Here is my last outpouring of sentiment, my Christmas
wish for all those in the world in need of it:And although it may sound simple and cliche’ the best
way for healing is lots of love. Lots and lots and lots
of love. Endless, boundless love. Not conditional love,
but unconditional love. Love that has no ego, resentment,
or defenses. Love that is Pure Love, full and full and
fuller of love and only love. That is the love that can
heal the greatest pain, the love we all have within us,
and that we can all give to ourselves and others… And there is nothing to fear with this love, because it is boundless pure love. It can never be lost – no matter what. It can always be felt if we open ourselves to it, and given if we choose it…In our world, that is so full of judgement and criticism,
we don’t get to feel and give this love as often as it is
needed and deserved. And even those who we think may not
deserve it, would most likely be better off if they had received it at the right times. As far as I know, all babies
are born needing and deserving this love. And admittedly or
not, deep down most of us still do… You know it feels
good! - Thanks Lisa, that’s a nice idea for Christmas as well as the other 364 days in the year.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 8:41 pm –> | Edit
- I’ve been following these posts and appreciate all of the discussion immensely. Lots of good ideas coming from everyone, and I think most people here understand that the after-action aspect of this incident should be to learn from rather than point fingers. We have formed ideas about this case based largely upon the information available from the media, which was pretty much all we had, and it’s so good to get some other insight (thanks, JoCoSAR).
Comment by Madeleine | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 9:34 pm –> | Edit
- I agree we received some more information from JoCoSAR (thanks).
However, we still do not have all the facts, etc and more importantly we do not know who JoCoSAR is or what their motivation, agenda really is?
A lot of us made assessments based on the media reports and have adjusted some of it based on information from JoCoSAR.
Please remember we have no idea who JoCoSAR is. JoCoSAR comes across as a intelligent, thoughtful person and who has been trained to discuss and collect information.
Motiviation seems to be to provide a positive light on Sara R. Hopefully sometime on or around Jan 5th we will receive more details and hopefully JoCoSAR, Sara R, and anyone else involved with JoCoSAR will join us here to discuss.
Afterall we really want to understand what happened so we can help in the future.
I still do not think we have a clear picture of many of the issues. Let’s all hope they will get an objective review and investigation done.
- You’re right, you have no idea who JoCoSAR is. I am here for no other reason than to suggest that you keep your minds open to other possibilities. I am not here to change your opinion of Sara R. at all. I am hoping that the report will do that for you. If it does not, then so be it. I just wanted to come here and remind you that as always, there are always two sides to every story. No other motivation Glenn, I promise.
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 9:46 pm –> | Edit
- (37) I think most of our minds are open…we can only process what we know. Do you know if the findings will be made public on Jan 5th?
A very good point about two sides of the story. There always are two side and both need to be heard. We can’t wait!!!
Thanks for focusing my thoughts regarding your motivation – it is clear and I look forward to more conversations in the near future.
Thanks.
- Re: 34
Yes, that is my wish – that everyone has it when they
need it…In this country, it would cause a downturn in the
anti-depressant market which is huge, and I think the lack of it is a big reason why depression rates can be so high – I don’t have the quote but I read that they are quite high in the U.S….Re: 35
I agree learning and making appropriate, effective changes is what is most important, and I think it’s the best way to honor James’ Kim and all those involved…
- Quite honestly, with the due date to the Gov’s office on the 5th, the investigators may wait until 5pm on that date. I have not heard any further information about the release. I would imagine that those involved would be able to talk about it openly after that date..assuming the investigation is over by then. I know that an email has already been sent tonight to the investigators regarding getting this thing going! I know that those involved are anxious to get this out in the open. I would hope that with the short deadline for the report, the public release would be quick as well…one can only hope!
- (40) Assuming the investigation is completed by the 5th…then I am looking forward to talking with you right here at 5pm on the 5th.
- I agree that I do hope we get to hear more details after Jan 5th. Until then, thanks to JoCoSAR’s contributions here, I’m withholding any judgement and not feeling so certain about the things I thought we “knew” from the media’s reports. Much said by JoCoSAR has sounded very plausible in ways I hadn’t considered, so my mind has been re-opened. It will be interesting to see how much of the report is released and what all is included, and I, too, hope that JoCoSAR and others will join the discussion that’s likely to follow any release of the report’s information.
- Thank you Glenn…I will be here on the 5th…looking forward to it!
- I dunno, it doesn’t seem that out of line to acknowledge the emotional chaos that was left behind by this incident (particularly the parts that the parties involved are putting out in public. There must be a reason for that. And Yelp is huge and very public, it isn’t a personal blog, like this one.) Without the personal, who really cares about the political wrangling and logistics behind the scenes.
As far as JoCoSAR, I haven’t read through every post, but I certainly acknowledge that the first part of the effort may have been (reasonably) concentrating on the idea that the family must have run off the road, which slowed the search and dictated the emphasis. That certainly made more sense than the reality. I’ll be interested in seeing the report.
- (44) Not sure I can go with the run off the road yet.
And if that was the thought – where they prioritized the search is still the issue.
Joe had a good idea where to look…and in the S.C. couple that was missing I had an idea of exactly what happened to them and where to look…
I would say both of those cases have to do with our local knowledge of the areas. I can’t speak for Joe so he might want to elaborate but in the case of the S.C. couple – every time I have been on that highway I have thought many times – if you went off the road here you wouldn’t be found for days.
Also in that case from what I know at this point – LE and EMS both had failures in execution. Granted they probably couldn’t have saved them but they should have found them the AM they went missing.
- Remember Glenn…Jo Co didn’t even know that they were missing until Friday the 1st. It seemed crazy at best, that if they were on the road, nobody would have seen them yet. They had remember, been up there for a week already….
- I’m not sure either if I mentioned last night or if you had heard of the other “local” who was 99.9% sure that they had seen the Kim’s travelling back down the mountain on Sunday the 26th?
- (47) That would be the employee of Sara R.’s husband?
(46) That issue is a whole other discussion…things should have happened long before then – too bad it didn’t but that was before you guys for the most part.
- Re:36 Glenn, we are all on the trail of the somewhat elusive “facts” of this incident, and I am glad to know there may be more info forthcoming. Whatever the true identity of JoCoSAR is, it’s good to be reminded that the news outlets report by the seat of their pants during these incidents and accuracy takes a hit. While the Sheriff’s office and Emergency staff are certainly accountable for their actions or lack thereof, I’m also interested in the media handling of such incidents. If they were provided accurate info and chose to run with more dramatic headlines, then they ought to be held accountable as well. I suspect there were some misunderstandings in the heat of the moment as the story unfolded, and hopefully the true story will emerge.
- Re: 47
Yes, I think we heard about that at some point – that it
was a friend of Sara R’s husband who thought they saw the
Kims traveling back down?It seems to me that a fair number of the mistakes in the search had to do with various assumptions that were made
that turned out to be false.It seems that at times, even potential evidence was not
given enough credibility because of these assumptions.And that the assumptions influenced even what search
techniques and areas were involved.I have questions which I know JoCoSAR probably won’t
be able to answer at this time – they are too specific.But I was wondering if you could answer one question. On
the last page of this blog at one point, discussing motivations involved in moving through the canyon, you said ‘James Kim’s motivation was to save his family.’ ‘Our motivation was to find a missing person.’I wonder how that potential distinction of ‘trying to find
a missing person’ or persons vs. trying to rescue missing
person(s) affects a search and the urgency involved in
operations. - 49 – Madeleine, you make a good point about the media. So much power is placed in their hands to construct the way that they present information to the public, and they are, of course, in a business of selling their stories – there is a balance, but it does seem that there is plenty of room for a little gray here and there in between making a buck with a hint more drama and just telling the truth very objectively.
- Re: 50 addition
One assumption being that they would have followed
the signs to the coast and not taken the right at the
fork on 34-8-36 the BLM logging road – not sure I
remember the numbers exactly.Another assmuption being that James most likely wouldn’t
have made that much progress in the canyon? - If I understand your question correctly Lisa, recovering a person is just as important to SAR as rescuing a person. Granted, a rescue is a much happier ending, but bringing closure to a family is important as well…I think that we search for both close to the same. I know that we handle both circumstances as an emergency. There is no search worse than not finding anyone at all. That is a fairly deep question, maybe I just worded my response wrong? Regardless, what I can tell you about this search specifically, I dont believe that it ever crossed the searchers (or managements) minds that we wouldn’t find James alive.
Hope that answers somewhat? - (51) Unfortunately the media is often left with no choice. They have to push stories to sell newspapers. Think of the alternative if they didn’t do it…we would all be sitting discussing our theories and have no light at the end of tunnel. None of us could have gotten an investigation started,etc…
- I have a question open for opinion…Let’s pretend for a moment that the report comes out soon and Sara R. is cleared of any wrong doing. Would it be wise, or even worthwhile to pursue charges such as slander against the Oregonian? I have never followed a case like this, and have no idea what happens in matters like these??
- (55) I am a firm believer that no one wins in a lawsuit…PERIOD. The lawyers are the only ones that benefit.
If Sara R. is cleared…I would hope the Oregonian would be fair and report that – I have a feeling a lot of people here would be talking to them to do just that.
The report of the local that saw them drive off the mountain on the 26th…was that “lead” given more weight than other “leads” and if so, why?
- 51 – Glenn, agreed. It’s kind of an unnecessary unfortunate (I wouldn’t even say evil, just sometimes unfortunate).
55 – JoCoSAR, this is just my thoughts since I have no legal background, but even if the Oregonian didn’t paint Sara R. in a good light, unless they told blatant lies (the phone call is the only one you mentioned), I think it would be tough. I *do* think it would be worth pursuing another report in that case that kind of sets things straight.
- 57 – oops – I meant a necessary unfortuante… a few days off work and too much candy has addled my brain
- Glenn-regarding that particular “lead,” from what I understand of the incident, it was the ONLY “lead” available to Jo Co as of that Saturday (the 2nd). I believe that there is a difference between a “hunch” and a “lead.” This witness, regardless of how he got it reported to authorities, saw photos of the Kim family and positively Id’d them as who he saw…He did not say that he saw them drive off of the mtn, but saw them near the top of the mtn headed not towards the coast, but back towards Galice.
It wasn’t until Sunday that more “leads” were collaborated, such as the Dennys in Roseburg, Edge, etc. All of those were followed up on when shared as well. - (59) So was his eyewitness report correct? Did he see someone else or did he have the day wrong?
- I so appreciate the conversation…you all have such good, thought provoking points of view. Sure is much more entertaining than “Deal or No Deal!” Everyone around here is so tired of hearing about the whole search, nobody can talk about it without getting terribly upset or angry! It’s nice to have conversation with people who weren’t directly involved..thank you!
- glenn, I can only speculate what was wrong with that witness…maybe on the 6th we can talk about it???
- Maybe we are getting into too specific information here, but if you can answer, wasn’t it that Friday (the 1st) that John James called and then met Sara R. saying he’d seen tire tracks at the turn onto the BLM road? Would it have still been considered a hunch?
- I saw that yesterday, you were talking about the three evil guys that kept visiting this forum…has anyone gone back and seen PacNWer’s Mail Tribune forum about emergency preparedness?? sounds like he was really trying to help?! Good thoughts there as well…
- (64) Any good idea that Pac may or may not have had was totally lost in his approach. Sorry any person that speeds at over 90 mph on our highways and wears it as some sort of badge of honor doesn’t have any credibility.
If he is interested in saving lives he should slow down. After he does that then I would listen to him.
- argh, would love to answer that as well Maggie…can’t really get too much into that particular question. I can tell you that it didn’t happen quite that way at all. I can also tell you, just as someone who has been up Bear Camp this time of year, there are/were tracks absolutely everywhere from tree cutters. It’s that time of the year. One other thing to think about…if the Kims drove down a road that Saturday night and it was snowing, and Kati has said that it snowed for two days on them afterward, would tracks on a particular road be an actual clue? Or, would it still just be a “hunch?”
- Traveling back down the mountain on Sunday the 26th could technically have been 1am in the morning Sunday. Did the witness say daytime Sunday?
- 66 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. I wondered with another person about the ability to see old tracks after so much fresh snow falling on them somewhere back on the first page or so of this discussion. I just gave up wondering since the Oregonian said in a 12/10 article that John James and his brother were still able to see them even with snow somehow… But what you said actually makes a lot of sense to me. I think you did mention the Christmas tree cutting this time of year last night – sorry for asking again, though it is a very strong point worth seeing again, I think.
About the three trolls, Pac in particular – yes, I’ve even agreed with some of his points, and over at mailtribune he presents himself well, but over here there is so much hostility surrounding his message that he kind of drowns himself out on that so that he can get back to his real goal over on this blog, which is to irritate people and get responses.
- I mean, good grief, every time I think I have the “picture”, something else comes along… for all I know they could have camped at the viewpoint that night and done all their spur traveling in broad daylight the next morning! Argh is right!
- (6
I think the point about the tracks on the BLM road was that people got lost up there “all the time” and people didn’t typically go tree hunting on that road. So there were tracks everywhere…where people expected them but a road where they didn’t expect them had one set of tracks.
That is what I have gathered from it…but I wasn’t there so it is speculation on my part.
However, I do know that tire tracks will show up as indentations in the snow even if covered with fresh snow.
- 67 – Witness reported seeing them at about 1:30pm that Sunday afternoon…
Hey, did you know that it was common practice around here to have a bonfire and drink alot of beer when you take your family up a mountain to cut Christmas trees?? I didn’t either!!Strange things happen here in Southern Oregon!
- (71) Too bad the Kim’s didn’t use some of their fuel to get a bonfire going and keep it going!
- Point well taken Glenn..not that I haven’t thought that myself. I was only presenting another question. My experience with that road however, is that it is just as likely to be a good tree place as the other hundred spur roads up there…I prefer getting my tree from the Boy Scout lot myself!
- Re: 53
Please remember that I think the most important result
is learning and not blaming.I understand what you’re saying. I may have more questions
after the report depending upon how thorough and open it
is.I kind of think there is a problem if you “don’t believe it ever crossed the searchers (or managments) minds that we wouldn’t find James alive.” Because at that point, timing was everything.
To be honest, I have been in the beginning stages of
hypothermia, and on Monday, after Kati and the girls were
rescued, I knew that James needed to be found urgently,
with speed both in terms of time and directionally,
if he was going to be found alive.I watched all the press conferences, and there were a lot of reasons, which to me knowing the urgency needed, sounded like excuses, why there weren’t more people down in the canyon searching it with more efficiency and speed. The Undersheriff seemed to speak, “We’ll find him,” ‘if not tomorrow than the next day.’
I really felt that he and operations were not acting
with that urgency that was necessary to potentially find
James Kim alive.I heard on Tuesday there were even people in rafts on the
Rogue river. That did not and does not seem like an efficient search technique to me given the known evidence at the time. How easy is it to look into the woods from
a moving raft?It also sounded like there were personnel on horses, and
snowcat/atv type vehicles who couldn’t go in the canyon
because of that equipment. But when you know he’s most
likely still in the canyon, from all the evidence – why
weren’t these personnel utilized as searchers on foot in
the canyon?And people said it was dangerous in the canyon. But James,
even in his exremely weakened malnourished pre-hypothermic
condtion was able to make so much progress so ‘quickly’ and
not be injured other than by some bruising, and the eventual
exposure and hypothermia.I know that James had more motivation for various reasons to move quickly through the canyon, but it is still hard for me to understand why searchers were trailing him so slowly when they knew he had two days advance, why there weren’t more people in the canyon. When I’m sure SAR staff had talked to Kati enough to hear of his plan to try to get down out of the mountains (to Galice).
I heard it would take searchers a long time to hike into
the canyon. If that’s the case, didn’t they think it was
less likely that James hiked back out of it?These are a lot of the questions I have. I know the
coroner’s estimated guess is that James passed on Monday.But it is still hard for me to understand how he was able
to make so much more progress than searchers, especially
in that short an amount of time. And there was the hot
spot on Monday night that could have been James.I know you probably can’t answer most of my questions. I
will wait.And I know that SAR had the best intentions.
It just seems to me that one lesson that might come from
this is that evidence and potential evidence should have priority over assumptions. Even if that (potential) evidence is from locals and not SAR staff. - 70 – Yes, they will show up even with a certain amount of fresh snow, but if it snowed enough to go from parked in rain to trapped in snow overnight where the car stopped, I wonder how much snow fell in the area of that turn. If it was a bunch, I don’t know how much they could have been able to see tracks. You are right, we weren’t there. Sounds plausibly to me either way, all depending on just how much snow fell at that particular fork area.
I do see what you mean about the point being that it was a typical turn where people get lost and that they only saw tracks going in. Sounds like JoCoSAR is having to hold back a little, so maybe there will be something more on that…
- (74) Lisa my assessment of the situation is someone decided they wanted to be “in charge” and superceded SOP because of the political benefit that was possible.
Someday we will probably find out who that is…
- re 71. Yeah Glenn, me too, but I heard they had trouble collecting wood they could use. I’ve seen people tear the bows off trees and use them, does that really work?
- Yikes! Beer, a saw, the forest, more beer, driving with a car full of kids… hmmm, I suppose that’s one way to do Christmas. I’m ashamed to say that I live in Oregon but have pulled my tree out of a box the past few years…
- 78 – oh, and fire… in the forest. I missed that point. Oy!
- (76) should have included…
superceeded SOP and “normal” roles of people typically in place for this type of operation.
If Sara R’s role was diminished because of this – it will create a demoralizing ripple affect throughout the entire operation…
- Oh man…. are you saying the Kims were looking for a Christmas tree? Just kidding, sorry.
- (77) Bows will burn…create a lot of smoke too. Sap will burn too. Depends on how much snow and ice has collected on the trees.
First priority in that situation is fire and sustainable fire. Protection from cold and in a lot of cases your only protection from wildlife.
That is what surprised me about the trek in the valley – I would think James would have needed fire to keep the bears at bay at night.
JoCoSAR was there any evidence of fire from where James went?
- Wow Lisa, very good questions for sure. I could almost answer every one of them, with at least my knowledge and experience on this search. I would love to go through each and every one of them as soon as I am able. Imagine for a moment how frustrating it is for me to not be able to respond. Please, meet me back here after the 5th and ask these very same questions again.
I am still so surprised at how involved some people are in this case and weren’t even there. It is easy to imagine for someone who lived through it, but I have never seen such interest in an uninvolved party. I guess I too never paid as much attention.
Lisa, you are right for sure about one thing…SAR did have the best intentions. I am glad that nobody is questioning the searchers themselves. The only ones that should have to go through that is the management…that I agree! The searchers in this case, and many others are the most amazing dedicated people you will ever know!
I can point out after reading again, that press conferences are planned events. There is quite a bit of coaching and conversation prior to those events. Please don’t allow yourself to judge the urgency of the search on the tone of the press conferences alone. There was alot that happened behind closed doors that was not seen on camera. Also, the raft question…if James had made it to the river and headed towards Galice, he would assumably be walking along the river, right? Also, there isn’t a road that would drive you right to the mouth of Big Windy Creek…wouldn’t that seem a prudent search method if it was conducted simultaneously with other methods as well?
There were no horses on this search…just another thing that I can confirm…does it make sense that there might be constant road searches by vehicle and ATV 24 hrs/day in case James had walked out of the canyon? Just a “hypothetical..” - 80 – Glenn, I totally get what you are saying. Again, maybe I am overly optimistic and naive, but I really would like to think that even if there was such an issue that could affect morale that somehow it wouldn’t affect how hard they did their jobs, knowing which mattered most. It is a good point to mention.
- (84) I think the feet on the ground would not allow that to affect them. However the chain of command would certainly be affected and any weakness in chain of command directly affects execution on the ground.
- 85 – Yes, very true.
- Glenn – you do know that he burned his tires, right??
I tried to start a bon fire up there not too long ago. I happened to have flares in my pack..now, I had the option of staying in my heated car at the time, so I wasn’t totally motivated..but still, that cold wet frozen green wood doesn’t like to burn!
- OK… partying christmas tree hunting local imbibed too much Sunday afternoon.
- Biting my tongue!!!!!!!!
- (86) Maybe the questions that should be asked…
Was Sara R. allowed to do her job?
and if she was…would the outcome have been any different?
- Sara R.’s job is dynamic..always has been. On most searches, she is all of the roles by herself (just like the search in the same area one week after Kim’s). Would the outcome on this search have been different if she was in charge? One can only wonder. Maybe her job is well enough defined at all. I don’t think that is really what we need to be asking.
I have said before that there are plenty of things that went wrong on this search, many things that will be worked on in the very near future. I don’t think that any of us here in Jo Co would be afraid to give anyone the laundry list of improvements that need to be made. I just think that it would be fair if the correct list be shared. -
- (87) yes I knew that but I am not going to speculate on any tasks that should have done differently. I think they did an amazing job as it was for how long they were out there and the limited resources they had.
- Sorry.
-
- Is that you D.H.? Are you sorry because you can’t tell me if that is you? I don’t have this whole blog etiquitte down yet..
- I wonder, hasn’t Randy said that he is from Jackson Co? They do things very much differently over there. I am curious to hear his response. He didn’t say he was Air 1 did he?
- He has good things to say…about SAR in general.
- re92: uh oh…
Well, I really don’t know how to fix that posting problem. Maybe just start a new reply without replying from button on post box… there’s 2 different reply buttons, try the lower one below the last post. clear as mud. You really need that 1st email they sent you for the link to activate… or sign in to your account if you can… or click on my controls at top of page… trying to help you out here. dam it. - If you mean Randy Jones, he is a volunteer pilot over in Jackson County. I don’t know that I’ve seen him on this blog, though.
- re:97 Air 1 … no… Randy hinted around that and mentioned Air 1, but SAR people seem to not want to reveal themselves for some reason…
- I never got that first email..I have looked in my spam folder too! Oh well, this one is so much more user friendly..thanks to Joe…it’s much like IM.
- I was sorry about my smart aleck #88 post.
- I understand the desire for them to keep their identity to themselves…I was just curious if it was Jones. He helped a lot on this search!
- Thank you so very much JoCoSAR!
That helps answer some questions and I look forward
to potentially asking more on the 5th, if I still have
them.For some reason, I was really worried about this family from the beginning, as if I knew them (but I did not).
And it was very recently that I had been thoroughly
into the stages of hypothermia. So, I could really
relate to James’ condition.I couldn’t help but pay a lot of attention because
I was so concerned. It was actually hard to pay
attention to anything else until he was found.On a lighter note, I know I heard somewhere in the
media there were horses – and I’m sure you know the
truth! Now I just wish I could remember where I heard
that inaccurate reporting from!I know JoCoSAR that hindsight is 20/20. And I know especially under pressure, people and groups of people
can make mistakes.But some of these things were driving me crazy while
the search was going on, and that’s why I look so forward
to hearing the answers. It made me want to contact the
department – but I knew that the public was told not
to. (That’s what my local newscast reported.)I definitely understand that Sara R tried her best as
she knew at the time, and that she had a more limited role
than has been portrayed.Again – I thank you so much. There is relief in hearing
answers. I hope there is relief in giving them.Goodnight ~
- You might have to start over with a new screen name, maybe even different email and watch for that confirmation message to come into your mail box.
- Lisa – if you were ever told not to contact the department, I don’t believe that it came from the department itself. Remember though, it is only a “department” of one person!
To answer your question about horses, there may have been some that showed up on Monday, but I don’t believe that they were ever sent up the mtn. Did you know that one of the key players at BLM is heavily involved in the SO Posse? His name is Jim Roper, what a resource he is! Amazing wealth of knowledge! Nice to have people like that around…
There is some relief in being here, as I mentioned before. Not being able to answer questions is killing me! - Thanks D.H. Changing my identity again may not even be a bad idea….
- JoCoSAR… would you be interested in corporate assistance funds for new warning signs at Bear Camp? I could post at MT saying that anyone wishing to help buy new signs could contact you, but I’d have to have permission from you to say, post your email address. I guess it depends on if you’re in a hurry to get signs up without having to go through red tape for funding and time waiting for signs to be built.
- RE#109: I don’t know, this would get all tied up with your identity, maybe we should wait on signs, etc. until after Jan 5th, no need to jeopardize anything for you.
- I am actually researching into whether SAR could have any participation in the signage issue at all. It is, as you probably know, BLM and USFS property. Our SAR wants to make it their personal mission to make a difference up there, we just aren’t sure how yet. I am sure that many meetings are to come…I will let you know, I just don’t think that time is now. Thank you for the offer though..
- 107 – JoCoSAR, I am glad that there is some relief for you to be able to be here saying what you can. It’s definitely given some different insight. I can’t imagine not being able to speak, so at least this is just enough for you to at least get folks thinking.
- Thanks Maggie! It does help, I guess that’s why I am still here. I get to get back to work tomorrow…I’ve never been so personally driven to prove a point!
- Like I said before, nobody around here wants to talk about it. For the average person on this particular search, we weren’t allowed to grieve for our loss…and it was our loss too…we had to prepare for and search for more missing people up there and then swing right into defensive mode. We can’t wait for it to be over.
- Thank you again to everyone for your conversation over the past two days. I know that you have all been here on this site much longer than me…
I must go and get some sleep now..Merry Christmas!
Hope to talk again soon…goodnight! - I looked for the thing your SAR people were supposed to have signed for Sara, but all I saw online was Christmas stuff today… maybe tomorrow, that’s very nice of them to do that. Honorable. When you show up here 5pm on the 5th, you’re not even going to tell us if this was you posting, are you? Good grief, that sentence didn’t make any sense at all.
- 114 – Well, you can to the right place for people who want to talk about it, that’s certain! This is the only place where I really get to talk about it (though for easier reasons than yours, such as everyone around me has already moved on and isn’t really interested on why I spend hours here…). Your situation would be more rough. I don’t doubt that your sense of loss would have to be pretty strong – if I felt that way and was just reading/watching on TV, anyone actually involved and trying to help had that much more emotion/motivation invested in it. The heaps of blame wouldn’t help any, either, I’d bet.
- Merry Christmas, good night.
- JoCoSAR, indeed this is a very good group here. I’ve followed this case extensively, but mostly posted elsewhere until I saw how great this site and group is.
It is really surprising, as you said, to find that people who had no personal vested interest in the case have gotten so involved. The case has touched the heart of many, and I think most people just want something positive to come from it. I have a son and his family who travel here from out of state fairly often, and I’ve had a few conversations with them since this happened about their priorities in getting someplace, as well as just plain preparedness.
If we can change the way people communicate in these situations, that will be huge. What often happens when there are multiple agencies involved is that the “big boys” want to take over and the communication is almost never good from then on, or else the top management of the smaller agency places constraints on the hapless person who is purportedly in charge (and taking the immediate heat). Either situation would be frustrating and counterproductive.
- JoCoSAR… Below is one of Randy’s posts when searched at MT forums, he is Randy N.
“as a member of jackson county search & rescue, and a member of jackson county mounted search & rescue, we are call 99% on all searches… either we respond with horses, or we respond to search on foot or whatever the need is to be.
for more info on SAR or MSAR, please contact me.
Randy N., EMT-I
jaclson county search & rescue
jackson county mounthed search & rescue” - Does not appear to be Randy Jones.
- Great stuff today!
Thanks so much to JoCoSAR for actively participating, and especially for promising to come back after the SAR report comes out on (or just after?) January 5.
This will be one of the most closely examined SAR efforts in history and whatever the outcome I know everybody has enormous respect for the difficulties and the efforts of so many people who participated in that search.
I’ve also become convinced that this blog comment format is better than a forum style setup. More scrolling here but does not require login to comment, searching is easier (use the browser “find on this page”), and to me it seems easier to follow the conversations.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 12:01 pm –> | Edit - I really appreciate JoCoSAR coming here and talking to
us about our concerns and the situation.It sounds doubtful that the public will really be able to see the report on Jan. 5th, but I am very much looking
forward to asking JoCoSAR the questions I have and more after the investigation is completed.I will be so good to really have a full picture and
complete understanding of what authorities were thinking.I hope there are truly and thoroughly honest in the
investigation.I guess one way to tell will be if there are still some
important questions left unanswered or unaccounted for.JoCoSAR agreed there were mistakes. It will be very interesting to hear what those are.
I think that only thorough and true “honesty” will do
justice to what needs to and can be learned from this
story and this case. - There seems to be a question of precision.
I don’t think the road signs adequately communicate information as to the hazardous nature of the area and certainly a sign that simply said ‘to the coast’ would have helped avoid unknowng but inviting detours. Even the locals use of the term ‘Bear Camp Road’ seems to be an imprecise term for a route that encompasses a number of roads of various practical and political designations. Recall perhaps that in Manhattan the politicians may say ‘Avenue of the Americas’ but New Yorkers say ‘Sixth Avenue’. This can confuse 911 operators whose computer recognizes ‘Sixth’ as referring to sixth street in lower Manhattan.
Obviously, some of the mistakes seem inexplicable when we look back and wonder about what now seems obvious to us. A good deal of it was indeed obvious then too. Yet not acted upon.
I wonder about the signals expert from Edge. He apparently started with a 26 mile circle around a cell tower, then considered only the ‘line of sight’ transmission areas and then overlayed the roads and came up with ‘Bear Camp Road’ but the SAR people seemed somehow to have never gotten beyond the ‘26 mile circle’ thinking.
The FLIR helicopter was available but utilized. This seems strange. One wonders about asset management skills and prioritization of goals. Some of the problem seems to be a lack of ‘team bulletins’ wherein the SAR coordinator summarized the various leads and assignments then being performed. There really never seems to have been anyone who was checking on the precision factor: What are the routes, how inviting are the spurs, how far along did the snowboarder get, exactly which segments of the road had been covered by search crews and which had not. Were searchers reporting their GPS coordinates or giving estimates of their positions? Someone failed to have adequate survival gear in his car. It was a foolish mistake, but it should not have been a fatal one. And rescue personnel have to be held to higher standards. When someone foolishly smokes in bed we don’t let the fireman stroll in with a pamphlet. There is a time for assessing the situation and acting in a competent manner irrespective of how foolish the initial behavior was.
Comment by Fools Gold | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 12:06 pm –> | Edit
- Re: 122
I agree Joe about the format!
- 122 – Joe, I love this format, too. It seems so much easier than threaded forums since references to post numbers seem to work well and it’s all in one place to search (well, now 3 pages, but that’s only because we’ve had a lot to say ). Thank you again. Is it January 5th yet?
- Good morning to all!! I thought I would wake up and it would be the 5th as well…no such luck! Just try to take peace in knowing that those of us involved want this all out too, hell, we were the ones who begged for it to begin with! Now the frusterating part is to let the investigation take its pace. I personally want it to go quickly, however not everyone involved in the investigation has such a strong personal desire for the information to come out…I never have been good at patience! I am more of instant gratification for sure!
- Re: 124
Yes, there are a lot of questions still unanswered.
I agree that the signs on the road are not strong enough,
both in number and message.Road “May Be Blocked” does not equal in common sense,
‘Road Is Blocked,’ unlike the Sheriff’s opinion.Common sense can be local common sense, and it sounds to
me like that is part of the issue.I had a feeling that funding was part of why more wasn’t
done to change the signs.It’s a funding, organizing, commitment, and carry-through
problem. But it’s one that is way past long overdue in being addressed and taken care of more effectively. - That’s interesting Lisa, I have never heard that funding was an issue with correcting the current signage. I have always thought that may sounds more ambiguous than IS! I also never liked that the signs said that Bear Camp Road may be blocked. I think that they changed at least that part last week to say Coastal Route. I don’t think that anywhere on the map says Bear Camp Route?? At least Coastal Route may clue in some others not necessarily paying attention???
- Re: 127
Hi JoCoSar! I can understand why you feel that way.
It will be a relief for sure. And that is the good
part of an independent investigation of a group, and
not just one or a couple individuals. The truth is
harder to deny or evade when there is a group of
people who know it.Good for you to ask for the investigation! I completely
understand why…I think that in general, time will go by quickly!
- 124 – Good points. From everything I’ve heard, though, any problems on the SAR end of things was not because they thought that the Kim’s were “foolish.” Nothing I have read or heard has suggested that at all. In fact, I’ve heard only the opposite – that it didn’t matter why/how the Kim’s got there, just that they needed help. I am with you on finding out more about the timeline and precision.
- Maggie – I learned a long time ago that if we as SAR spent our time judging why someone needed help, we would be spending all of our time judging and not searching/helping! Unfortunately, it isn’t smart, well prepared people that we assist! Those are far and few between. I guess what I mean is, call it job security or whatever you want, but most of the folks that we look for have active warrants, no license, etc. It is not uncommon for us to drive people off of the mtn only to be met at the bottom by a patrol car to arrest them.
- Re: 129
Yes, I’m not sure where I heard about the funding
problem with the signs. At this point after all this
blogging, that might have been someone’s assessment
of some local opinions on government spending, or
something the Sheriff said. (Which at this point,
wouldn’t seem too surprising!)And I know that local opinions vary and are not all
the same on any issue, so I don’t ever want to give
that impression.And you do have a lot of SAR efforts and incidents on
Bear Camp don’t you? Even with some locals who should
according to the Sheriff have use more “common sense”?I suppose that no matter what the signs are, there will
always be some more reckless individuals, but I think
better signage would help to truly deter and warn most people who don’t know the area better. - I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!
- 132 – I hear you loud and clear, JoCoSAR. That has been my exact impression throughout this discussion as well as in other cases. Of all the questions I have about this, that is not even one of them. I don’t doubt for one moment that the SAR folks want to help, no matter how people wind up in trouble.
- Re: 134
Is there anything else besides signage that you
think could be done or improved? Or do you think
that it just happens often that people ‘get in
over their heads’? - I’ll check back in later! I have to go for awhile…
- Just thinking out loud, it’s a shame that someone looking for a Christmas tree didn’t venture down that spur road and incidentally find the Kim’s before that last weekend was over.
- I didn’t realize that in volunteer SAR “all skills are welcomed, we need support teams, cooks, etc.” – as per an SAR poster at MT forum. That’s cool, I didn’t even think about that. So you don’t have to rapel down a cliff to take part in SAR.
- Absolutely not! Who do you think stays at base camp and does paperwork and feeding, etc. I believe that everyone who wants to give is given a chance…
- Your musical instrument skills may even come in handy sometime!!
- tara (817) I’m glad that you were able to draw a useful lesson from the Kims’ misdjugments.
mapper (899), how about figuring out a way to get drivers to actually read the warnings on the ODOT map and on signs along they way? I mean, three signs saying “Road May Be Closed in Snow x Miles Ahead” seen while the snow is falling would seem to be understandable to people of the Kims’ shining brilliance, don’t you think? How about a legend on the map saying, “Hey you! Yeah you, the one with the brains! The rules apply to you, too!”
JoCoSAR (1038), you ask if one can be fired for telling the truth. My response is that when people are fired for telling, it’s far more likely to be that they were fired for telling the truth. Be careful. People who tell the truth are often hated more than anyone else.
JoCoSAR and Maggie (104
isn’t it wonderful that no one will blame SAR and no one will blame the Kims? Why of course not!`We don’t want anyone to be seen as responsible for one death and three close calls. We want everyone to go home feeling good and worrying about nothing. Screw the truth.And by the way, JoCoSAR, it’s a smart move for you to not blame the Kims in this thread, because all these people who piling the sympathy onto you would turn on you instantly if you were to say something like, “The idiots ignored the highway map, breezed past three warning signs and didn’t even bother to fill the gas tank or check to see if they had some foul-weather clothing in the car before they took their babies on the snowy mountain road in the middle of the night.”
No one here wants to hear that. It would interfere with the TV movie and the Kims’ gracious charity fundraising appeals. We wouldn’t want to do that. Not when there’s money to be made.
Comment by PacNWer | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 1:24 pm –> | Edit
- Right… in the USAF I considered myself a trained killer with my clarinet.
- If you can’t go in the field, you could be trained in Managing Search Operations and participate in the management side of search. Most of our searches are run by volunteers. There simply aren’t the resources to pay the entire management team. Even this search had positions filled by volunteers who are unable to go to the field…
- Hey PacNWer..I was just defending you last night. The thread that you started about Emergency Preparedness was awesome..although some weren’t able to stick to topic, but come on now…why do you turn into someone totally different when you come over here?
- Hang in there JoCoSAR.
- Re: #144. That’s cool, I’ll consider it. I would first have to have the guts to consider myself totally dependable however. And commit to it. That would be a big part of it, and one would absolutely have to be prepared to commit.
- Randy the SAR person at MT forum thinks that we have enough government involvement in SAR. He doesn’t want the state run SAR replacing Sheriff responsibility like in Alaska and New Mexico. However, he’s very into a county helping another county.
- #142 – Scrooge is back !!
#145 – THAT is a really good question, and one that more than a few of us have pondered over…he does seemingly turn into someone totally different (Jekyl and Hyde come to mind).
- #148 – Interagency squabbles, power plays and turf wars all are a reality of local governments. I think New Mexico and Alaska overcome a lot of that by having a central authority.
- JoCoSAR, most of the people on this site are playing a particular sort of game. They want to absolve the Kims of responsibility for what happened. Sorry, but that’s a bunch of crapola. If saving lives is the goal, the best way to use the Kim tragedy to save lives is to make it crystal clear that this happened the way it did because of their misjudgments.
Note the plural, misjudgments. This was not a case of a a traveler simply making a wrong turn. There were a series of blunders, which when taken together amount to serious negligence on the part of James and Kati Kim. The result was one life lost and three more almost lost.
That’s the truth. Call it what you will. Cruel, heartless, sociopathatic, what have you. I’ve got a tough hide, I can take it. Look, if I wanted to be popular here I’d cry on cue with the rest of ‘em and ooze toward the nobody’s responsible position.
JoCoSAR, it doesn’t much matter to me if you agree or not, or if you like me or defend me or dump on me. I do think you might want to stand back from all of this for a minute and ask yourself what’s going on. Most of the people are are happy to let anyone off the hook as long as no one tells the truth about the Kims, who got one person killed and almost three more — for absolutely no good reason in the world.
If the so-called “Internet community” would coalesce behind telling the truth about this, and insist that clear warnings about misjudgments be broadcast, some lives would be saved. The Kim tragedy looks very much like a product of get-there-itis. They were so intent on making it to their final destination that night that they abandoned elementary common sense and judgment.
That’s the message to send. Not just in the West Coast media, but at rest stops, on highway signs and on the ODOT map. There ought to be a succinct warning about the dangers of get-there-itis. What caused James Kim’s death was closely related to the same thing that causes people to fall asleep and crash their cars late at night.
In the final analysis, while I’m sure that there’ll be some nitpicking around the edges of the SAR operation I doubt they’ll find the SAR effort culpable. This was “pilot error,” the pilots being the Kims. Their friends and well-wishers don’t want to hear it, because it counteracts the hero story and might even get that TV movie deep-sixed.
- LOL
- Miller time at lunch time.
- (145) JoCoSAR, you will notice a big difference depending on the time of day with that bloke!
wink, wink, nudge, nudge
- I guess I should add “alcoholic” to the list of what you’ll be called if you should want to tell the truth about the Kims. This is a very compassionate crowd.
- … but of course, my “tone” is objectionable
- deleted sentence here
Pac, I’ll say just this and then go back to leaving it be, which is what I should probably do anyway but can’t help myself this one time. I agree that you are right that more can and should be done so that people are more aware not to make the mistakes that the Kim’s made and many of us have even made (maybe not you, but I have – hopefully now I won’t again, so it worked for me). I doubt you’ll hear much of an argument on that. I don’t think that means we need to call them every name in the book and ridicule their decisions in order to get the point across – a widow with 2 small children growing up without a dad should be plenty effective if people are going to listen. Which not everyone will – so I’m grateful that SAR’s stance is not to ask why and just try to help. OK, I’m sure I’ll regret even replying, but now I feel better and don’t even need a drink.
- (155) deleted
Try to be civil or go elsewhere…
BTW…even though you said what we were doing here wouldn’t help anyone, we couldn’t get anything done, yada yada ya…
JoCoSAR acknowledged that this is very helpful and that our efforts through the Internet could be very helpful as well.
- LOL^2
- [deleted]
As for JoCoSAR’s opinion about the usefulness of this forum, all I can say is that I am the ONLY poster in more than 2,000 messages who has come up with any ideas that would save lives in the future.
[deleted]
- I think most of what PacNWer #151 has stated is true to some degree. No I wouldn’t have said it like that in some sentences, but I have been concerned that the public is trying to put a big rap on SAR that may not be deserved. Even one of the sheriffs (which one???) said that much responsibility does belong with the traveler. Someone also said at MT forum that the Kims couldn’t have gotten further away from Bear Camp rd. if they would have tried. That’s not a criticism of Kims, just might have made it even more challenging to find them.
You know, Randy the SAR guy at MT forum has a pretty good point… quit blabbing and start volunteering… you gotta understand that point of view from someone who has worked so hard and so positively in SAR related jobs for a long, long time.
I think we all probably can see that the Sheriffs may need to control their ego instead of crippling the managers below them. What can we do to solve that besides making this SAR state managed?
- (163) deleted
- (163) Are you upset that the Governor likes the wiMax idea? If you had any memory and remembered me from the Cellular 1 days you would know I am not a salesman.
You just show how ignorant you really are about the power of net access…if wiMax were deployed do you think James Kim and his family would have been sitting around playing scrabble…well they might have after they were able to tell SAR where they were.
I have nothing to do with the Kim family and have never absolved James of anything he did…he messed up and he is DEAD.
PacNWer you talk about your great ideas…well get one of them done. Ideas are a dime a dozen – executing and making one a reality is all that matters in life. Poor performers always blame their tools!
- glenn, I’m afraid you’re breaking the California Karma Code here. Better yet, you’re making me laugh.
p.s.: Haven’t broken 85 yet, but if you’d like me to go faster I’d give it a try,
- I also don’t understand why there aren’t more corporate business donations to SAR. Wouln’t this be great PR for a business? Is there some political connection to business that SAR doesn’t want? Donating to SAR would be great support for all the time and risk the SAR volunteers take out of their own lives. Donating to SAR would be so much more worthwhile than some things business spends money on.
- glenn, no way could one person be able to get the media off of its Lost Hero In the Woods story. Not when the smart set is fully invested in the production. Like I’ve been saying, for you this never has been, is not, and never will be about saving anyone’s life. That is not a consideration on your radar screen or that of most commenters here.
We know what happened out there, and why. There was a window of opportunity to tell the truth, and now that window has pretty much closed. So congrats, Internauts! Some people are going to die because you stuck to the hero line rather than tell the truth and advise others not to do what the Kims did.
That IS the message that would have saved lives, and it will NOT be told. Feel good? Hope so! You see, saving lives ain’t always about sitting ’round the cam pfire singing Kumbaya. Sometimes it’s about standing up, pointing your finger and saying, “Don’t be as $%#@&% stupid at those people were or you might die too.”
- RE: #162… Ooops…. PacNWer are you just a glutton for punishment?
- Hey !
The personal insults, baiting, and calling people alcoholics is totally out of line here. Fine to say anything about other’s ideas, but not about them personally unless it relates to the details of the Kim Family Search.
I’ll be deleting comments without notifying people. Numbers will be messed up. Too bad.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:22 pm –> | Edit - NW’r, I don’t remember anybody expressing a ‘Kims not responsible’ view this forum. It was the Oregon State Police spokesman at a press conference who publicly, emphatically declared the Kims not at fault — “they did nothing wrong”.
So why not direct your vehemence OSP direction?
- Well, guess that’s what I get trying to effectively communicate with PacNWer. What I was trying to point out, was that if you look beyond the attitude that for whatever reason he has taken at this post, he has some good ideas. I have also never said that I personally don’t think that the Kim’s mistakes led to their demise. What I did reinstate, was the mission of the SAR team…that’s all.
PacNWer – I could honestly care less if you drink or drive fast…I only tried to direct people to your positive post..that’s all. - PacNWer, please don’t. I’m begging you.
If you don’t quit, it won’t matter, because I’m sure Joe will probably ban you from this forum if you don’t stop. If I were him, I would ban you, sorry to say.
- D.H.
I can tell you that I agree with the corporate donation thing…our group has been desperately seeking a local car dealership to donate a vehicle for search efforts, it seems as though nobody is intereste…wish I could explain why? Citizens donate all the time, not sure why corporations don’t more often?? - “I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 26, 2006″Thanks very much for your insight and comments, JoCoSAR. Since it seems clear that no amount of signage will overcome human hard-headedness, the obvious solution would seem to be to simply gate off the road completely from Galice to Agness every winter.
Like all decisions, it’s a cost-benefit choice. If impassable gates were built on Bear Camp Road and closed off, the locals won’t be able to drive up to prime hunting and tree-cutting lands. But then number of winter-time rescues on that road would GREATLY lessen.
If the locals want to continue with their free access to Federal property (which really belongs to all 300,000,000 of us Americans) throughout the winter, then they will bear the cost and responsibility of having to rescue travelers who take the unsafe road they want kept open.
- The numbers messed up with deleting posts, etc., is a small problem. Not trying to be overly critical of forum construction, but a message board can be had for free, PHP something or other, I forget the brand name of company. It might be something to consider. I would set it up for you if you wish, for free, I’d be happy to do it. I could even donate hosting, I have so many hosting accounts with free forums you wouldn’t believe it. It wouldn’t cost me a thing. That way users can go back in and edit their comments. You could delete comments and other admin functions much more easily.
- [173] …fortunately for this forum you are not Joe. IMO PacNWer has offered some good information. He expresses himself well. You know where he stands. Why not just scroll by if you find what he says disagreeable.
- Joe, f you’re interested in trying a different format, I’d do all the work. Just let me know and email me at surfinwebs@actionnet.net.
- D.H.
Is that the type of posting where identities are known? Or can be found out?? - (16 No one here ever said the Kim’s didn’t bear any responsibility – you seem to keep forgetting that he died – he paid for his mistakes.
Telling people to be better prepared is old news as far as this story goes…you keep bringing it up like it is the only thing that is going to save people. I think most people figure if they are going into the wilderness (and know it) that they should be prepared for several different scenarios.
The fact is…people will keep getting themselves into situations that requires professional help to extract them from it – regardless of how well they prepare. We need to focus on technology, procedures, etc that will enable SAR and non-SAR volunteers, and the families to work together to bring more success to SAR specifically on missions that extend beyond 48 hours.
- Thanks for the link to Kati Kim’s page. Her reviews show her to be an intelligent woman with a sense of humor. I was completely floored by the profile details she has obviously updated since the tragedy.
She describes herself as a “30-year-old widow”
Other details:
”
When I’m Not Yelping…
i’m picking up the piecesThe Last Great Book I Read
first few pages of “through a glass darkly” in the back of a saabMy Last Meal On Earth
anything besides rice baby cereal and snow
”To post these remarks on a public page after what happened, what a lady. I’m impressed.
- RE: 176 by Kip. Kip, are you talking to me? If so, what is your problem with me? You’re being just as disrespectful to me as… well I’ll stop there. – D.H.
- RE. #177 by JoCoSAR, only the administrator could find out identities. After building the board, I would relinquish administrative capabilities to Joe. I guess you’d just have to trust me on that one. Or I could build it on Joe’s hosting somewhere as long as the host offers a message board capability that would work. Then Joe could change the admin password, and change it whenever I worked on it. It’s one of those things about being a web designer, at some point people have to trust you. I cannot build a message board from scratch, the software has to be on the host in the first place. I swear on my Air Force oath that I would not misuse the trust in any way. If more verification of my qualifications are needed, feel free to email me at surfinwebs@actionnet.net.
- Re: Alternative forum: Thanks D.H. but I actually already have a forum software setup at another site I have that uses the Jelsoft platform. I decided early on that this blogging format was much better for several reasons including easier posting and navigation and searching. I know forums well and they are better if the conversation needs to thread out in several directions. However when everybody is focused on a similar topic and it’s important people read the discussion to understand I actually think this “single thread / easy posting” is the way to go.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:44 pm –> | Edit
- Obviously Pac you are not interested in saving lives…at least not unless it fits your description and plan to save lives…you would rather deflect and try to detract others that are volunteering their time to try to do something.
Believe me I have a lot of really fun things that I can do on a daily basis beside dealing with your crap.
Since this is most defintely about saving lives it over-rides the grief the rest of get from trying to deal with you.
Did you ever notice Pac that whenever anyone tries to engage you in a straight conversation you attack…heck you even did it today when JoCoSAR gave you a compliment and defended you – your immediate response was an attack.
Why don’t you stick to the forum where somehow you find a way to be civil? You are not adding anything here.
Wasn’t it a nice couple of days before Pac came back?
- (179) Good assessment thanks for your perspective…I kind of thought that as well but didn’t put it all together like you did.
- JoCoSAR re: Forum anonymity: it depends how you setup the login and registration process and how much information the person puts in their “identity” page and whether they tell the truth.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:47 pm –> | Edit
- Gate the road! many cry. — another step on the road of giving up our freedom for the sake of a little cozyness. seems to be the prevailing mindset these days. ..damnit.
- Give me contact info for your organization and I will try to inlist help for you in the ways that I can. I don’t believe you’d have to reveal identity for me to do that. I could begin immediately.
- JoCoSar Hi, just curious how the locals and the SAR team feel about the cell phone engineers (Fuqua) from Edge Wireless and the private pilot John Rachor? Most of us attribute their efforts with saving three lives and think they are the truest kind of Good Samaritan, and that their success doesn’t detract from the efforts of the SAR volunteers.
Are SAR teams now going to try to assess cell phone records in many cases as part of the investigative portion of a missing persons case? I mean would an ordinary SAR team interface with cell phone companies?
I am still not certain how long it takes the cell company to search its records and find the last ping– whether this is as simple as accessing a credit card receipt and finding the last place it was used. The credit card receipt would show the address in most cases, while the the cell phone info would have to be interpreted by time, distance and terrain, and then topo/terrain maps used for certain situations. So I can see some cell companies not be so happy to donate hours of time in routine cases. CNET had one or two good articles on this technology. Thanks.
Comment by Bamadad | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:53 pm –> | Edit
- I’ll need to be leaving shortly to take care of some business. Don’t mistake my absence for a lack of interest.
- (186) I suggested they turn it into a toll road…it will solve all the problems plus create jobs and generate money for SAR.
Crazy idea but it would work. In fact why not have a locator beacon as part of the toll ticket and when you get to the other side you turn it in when you pay your toll…you would also be able to tell where most people get lost and when they did you could find them – immediately.
- (18 Call Detail Records and the switch data is a nightmare to sort through. The towers in the area where the Kim’s were lost are one thing…the towers around a large metro area are a completely different ballgame. You are talking about mountains of data and databases that hold them were not designed for searching.
- re alternative form. #182 from Joe. Well, I just really wanted to contribute in my own way. Plus I believe what I am proposing. But I’ll get over it I guess.
- (192) D.H. I am sure of the protocol regarding this. The call is up to Joe…not sure how appropriate it is to keep peddling an idea that would take something away from this forum if Joe were not involved. Just my two cents…
- re 190 from Glenn. Who would man this toll booth? Who would donate the locator units? Not trying to shut you down on this. Could the public be trusted to return the locators? Hmmmm….
- Joe, you deleted my post, which is fine. It was a mistake on my part to stoop to the low level of my counterpart.
In fairness, though, I feel compelled to point out that my miscue was incited by an individual who has consistently, persistently and abusively engaged in personal insults, baiting, name calling, bitter sarcasm and insensitive put-downs.
- re: 193. Oh, but Joe would be involved Glenn. I said control would be relinquished to him after building. So sorry you see my suggestions as “peddling” or “innappropriate”. Good grief, if you don’t share the wealth here on contributing, this whole idea you have isn’t going to work.
JoCoSAR, if you’re interested in the immediate or long term future, I can do these kind of web development projects for you or any worthy causes too.
- An idea I really liked because it would be cheap and easy would be to leave gates open but the signs would tell people with cell phones (that would be a very high % of drivers)to call a number when they enter, and again when they leave the restricted area.
At it’s cheapest these messages could be handled cheaply and remotely using a basic answering machine and officials would not need to even review those logs until a missing person report came in.
Note that this cheap system would have saved all the time spent looking for the Kims on Highway 38 and 42.
More labor intensive would be a log-in log-out automated system where officials would get a call if the system did not get a logging out from the wilderness, but this would lead to many unneeded searches.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 3:08 pm –> | Edit - Barnadad – You bring up such a good point. I think that issues on this search will change many things about how we search for people. It has been common practice in the past to not start a real ground search for a missing person until we have a “Last Known Point – LKP.” This would be a vehicle, etc. With this case, searchers scoured all of SW Oregon without any further clue where to look! I would imagine that may change..or at least be expected to change. How difficult is it going to be to manage the call volume of people wanting SAR to search an entire region with no clue that someone is even there? What about people who don’t want to be found?
About the cell phone issue. This I just don’t know enough about yet. I have said before that the information given by Edge only narrowed our search area to three counties rather than the entire state. I don’t know how easy that is to obtain either. OSP handled the investigative search when I was involved, so that would be more of a question for them???
SAR holds no ill will towards “outsiders” such as Fuqua or Rachor. In fact, they are volunteers just as SAR is. It is difficult to manage emergent volunteers in any case, we were lucky that didn’t become a huge problem in this case. I know that we had so many offers of help from everywhere….from psychics to people just wanting to clean toilets for us…there comes a point where there is such a thing as “span of control.” This means that if there isn’t enough management coordination, more volunteers on the case can be more of a problem that the case itself! Make sense? - 197 – I love that idea. The only catch would be that the point from which the call would be made would have to still be where there is a cell signal (and that’s a bigger more expensive yet very worthy project).
- 197 -that is a creative solution as well…if people chose to use it for one, and assuming that there was cell coverage (or that one had a cell) at the gate?? I know that in this case in particular, you lose cell coverage shortly after leaving Merlin..long before Bear Camp turnoff…There are also about 6 or so different ways to enter that area from different routes.
- I have talked to Edge since the search. They spent two days erecting a temporary cell tower on Peavine Lookout. This did increase coverage, but not by much…there is no commercial power up there at all! That seems to be the biggest problem. The closest agency type system up there is on Onion Mtn. There is no commercial power up there, and the owners have a really difficult time maintaining that system due to that issue…
- I have heard so many suggestions about solutions..some are almost humorous!! One was to have an “entry station” at the main road, not so much a manned toll booth, but like a park fee site. There would be a statistics sign with a box for “Next of Kin” information..do you think that would get the message accross?? Gee Whiz!
- Glenn and JoCoSAR thanks for info.
Glenn– sounds like the cell records search would only be used in extreme cases since they are take alot of time. I think the long term solution is enhanced 911- and nationwide deployment of low cost/low wattage cell towers.
Of course, none of this overcomes individual common sense and preparation. I hope any “access” gate solution doesn’t prevent enjoyment of this whole area by the local citizens.
JoCoSAR– yes, I understand span of control issues. It’s like drinking from a fire hose- .
- It really seems to me that all this debate with PacNWer
is futile.He’s just going to keep screeching the same lines ad
nauseum.We all know that people make mistakes. And everyone who
has cared or paid any attention to this story, Has
ALREADY LEARNED FROM THE KIMS’ MISTAKES. The Kims
mistakes are OBVIOUS.We don’t smear everyone who has a car accident incessantly,
even when it’s a 16 car/truck pile-up.We don’t crucify the character of every person who falls
asleep with a candle burning and starts an apartment
fire where people may die.What about drunk driving? And all the deaths, of the innocent and the responsible, who die from that each year? That’s a far greater number if you want to save live. Where’s your crusade against all those people PacNWer?
There’s even a lot more issues that kill a lot more people that you should be paying attention to, if that is truly why you care so much about this case.
Humans are fearful – it is natural – we all try to learn from other people’s mistakes when something goes wrong.
James Kim got credit after his mistakes for his heroic
efforts.But we all know we have gotten ourselves into bad
situations at times – not knowing better. It is the
Socratic paradox, from one of the wisest men who ever
lived, Socrates:No man who thinks he knows a better course of action would ever take a worse one.
And if you apply it to your own life. You will see that
it is true. People make mistakes because they truly don’t
know better at the time.People don’t want to make mistakes. They don’t get into
these situation on purpose, or knowing better.You can argue that they do – you can argue that they
should have. That doesn’t make it true. You weren’t there -
you don’t know what they were thinking. You can judge them but there’s ultimately no legitimacy to it because you don’t truly know and you can’t truly prove what their perception of the situation was.Beyond that, it all starts to get a little sick. You take
it too far.We all try to learn from them, without some big negative campaign against specific people and their specific mistakes.
Most importantly, people won’t want to participate in your big negative campaign PacNWer, because it’s kind of sick and deranged with the amount of animosity you have towards these people and this situation.
And PacNWer, if you don’t get this, then you are
truly just an incorrigible waste of time. And I intend to
ignore you quite thoroughly and completely. You have made
your point, too many times over.It exceeded it’s value too many times over. It is ad nauseum
personified. - I didn’t realize there was no/poor coverage at Galice, but the “log in” signs could be in range and locals would just ignore them. Hmmm – could we easily set up a national “check in” call center with a single number and a robust answering system?
No coverage / no cell phone? Perhaps add a pad of paper and waterproof box along with the “Next of Kin” sign JoCo suggested or some other threatening sign that locals can ignore and tourists can fear.
This would not eliminate the problem but it would reduce the number of people lost without much of a trace, and more importantly it would be very *cheap*.
Expensive solutions might be implemented in this case due to media attention and the donation stream, but they won’t get widespread use across the country. It would be nice to find more scalable and cheap solutions to ID the location of missing people earlier rather than later.
Cheap and simple technologies seem to be called for.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 3:46 pm –> | Edit - RE: Censorship
I’m already having regrets about deleting a few comments and editing others because it’s confusing and it’s hard/impossible to be “fair” and impartial anyway. Also time consuming for me to review and try to decide what’s a personal attack and what is legitimate criticism of a person’s IDEA, which is fine by me – that’s the point here in fact.
I won’t be moving this to a forum system because my personal view is that they are harder to navigate and due to login/lost passwords/etc they inhibit discussion you see with this simple to read/simple to comment blog style.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 3:55 pm –> | Edit - D.H. (and everybody) -
Feel free to link back over to the Mailtribune Forum as you see fit. To do that just go to the MT page and cut and paste the URL from the browser into your comment here like this:
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=880 Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 4:10 pm –> | Edit - Thank you Joe! I think it is easy enough for us to scroll past what we feel are personal attacks here. It is also impossible to determine a certain individual’s tolerance to “attacks!” I don’t think that should be your job anyway..This is such an easy forum to navigate, I would hate to lose this opportunity…I will stay here, at least until you kick me off!!
- Thanks JoCoSAR and thanks for more informative input today.
Note that I have not kicked anybody off and don’t have any plans to do that, though I would like people to keep to the story and the ideas rather than the personality stuff.
In fact part of the whole point of the “new” internet is the idea that what seems like pointless or irrelevant information can become very valuable in a different set of circumstances. This is *part* of the reason I think it’s a mistake to do much censorship or editing.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 4:37 pm –> | Edit - I just got the Grants Pass Daily Courier today. Great article on investigation. Also, there was someone looking for the resolution from Jo Co SAR in support of their leader, Sara R. This article mentions that. There is also a good letter to the editer in today’s paper as well. Unfortunately, this paper is not available online, so unless you live here, it may be hard to get a copy?? I would be willing to type it if anyone was interested?
- 210 – JoCoSAR, I think many of us would love to see it. If you’d rather not type it and have a scanner available, I’m sure one of us would be glad to post it somewhere and link to it. I could do that – just let me know. Unless you enjoy typing
- the reporter is going to email the article to me…I should be able to do something with it then…I hate typing on a laptop!
- 212 – Even better! Thank you for sharing it with us when you get it.
- By Jeff Duewel
of the Daily Courier
Josephine County has asked for an independent review of the search for the Kim family, in response to extensive media attention during an ordeal that left James Kim dead and his family stranded for nine days in the mountains west of Grants Pass earlier this month.
Volunteers and the board of directors for Josephine County Search and Rescue made the decision on Friday, said Phil Turnbull, board chairman.
“There’s been an awful lot of attention to it,” said Turnbull, who is also fire chief for the privately-owned Rural/Metro Fire Department. “We’re just not certain our normal internal review would satisfy all the concerns out there. In this case we needed a third party. We wanted something more substantial than the normal review we do of all searches.
“We’re not afraid of it. We’re requesting it.”
Two stories published in the Oregonian newspaper concerning the Kim search were highly critical of the search, calling it “plagued by confusion, full of gaps in communications and failures of leadership.”
The request for the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association review is a response to that negative coverage, Turnbull said.
The OSSA will conduct the review, which will focus on actions of the Sheriff’s Office, and Josephine County employees and volunteers.
Klamath County Sheriff Tim Evinger, chairman of the OSSA Search and Rescue Advisory Council, will oversee the investigation. An initial report is expected by Jan. 5.
A news release from Josephine County said that, should the OSSA review reveal procedural errors or timeliness issues associated with the way the Josephine County Search and Rescue performed their duties, those issues will be made public and corrected to meet OSSA standards.
Evinger said he plans to interview 40 people. Detectives from various sheriff’s departments will assist.
A separate review requested by Gov. Ted Kulongoski last week will focus on actions of people outside the county, including state police, civilians, and other agencies, said Ken Murphy, of the state Office of Emergency Management.
Murphy said he hopes to have the facts and chronology in hand by Jan. 5. After review, a task force will be appointed to review search and rescue approach, and to come up with ideas to improve search and rescue.
The executive board and members of Josephine County Search and Rescue approved a resolution Friday saying they support Sara Rubrecht, Josephine County Emergency Services manager who oversees search activities.
Rubrecht is nearing completion of a timeline of activities that were part of the Kim search.
Kim, 35, of San Francisco, died of hypothermia after trying to walk out and save his stranded family, who became lost on Nov. 25 while driving home from a Northwest vacation.
The Kims, like numerous other ill-advised winter travelers in past years, took Bear Camp Road to get to Gold Beach, but ended up deep in the forest, more than 20 miles down a remote logging road.
The incident has also prompted the U.S. Forest Service and BLM to review signs along roads and consider closures. No action has been taken yet.
o o o
Reach reporter Jeff Duewel at 474-3720 or jduewel@thedailycourier.com - 214 – Very nice, thank you JoCoSAR. This, I think, is great news about the public hopefully getting more of the picture:
“A news release from Josephine County said that, should the OSSA review reveal procedural errors or timeliness issues associated with the way the Josephine County Search and Rescue performed their duties, those issues will be made public and corrected to meet OSSA standards.”
Hopefully once this report and the other are out there can be some peace and the ability to focus on improvements for the future.
- (214) JoCoSAR, that was one of my questions, is it common to have an internal review of each search, successful or unsuccessful?
- We typically have an after action review…quick and dirty really. ORS 401 indicates that we are not required to do a formal critique unless actually requested. That just hasn’t happened very often.
- This definitely sounds like the best way to go in terms of Josephine County issuing a rebuttal to the criticisms. Perhaps what Kulongoski had in mind will be a bit more general – and hopefully still very useful for the future, but since this separate investigation seems to have a more specific focus, I think it sounds like a smart move both for Josephine County to lend more credibly to their challenge of the information we’ve been hearing. Looking toward the future is most important, but if Josephine County SAR has been unduly criticized, I do think it’s just as important for that to come to light as well.
- What is ORS 401?
- Joeduck- I like your idea but I have one concern. Say someone doesnt call to check in or leave a note. Then there’s no search for them? Since you cant be sure they didnt just carelessly pass the check stations you’d still have to search the areas right? Am I understanding that correctly? Seems like it could help but not eliminate the need to search even if no note or call.
- Oregon Revised Statutes link below:
http://www.paperadvantage.org/ORS/401.html#search%20and%20rescue
- 220 – My half-baked idea (and problems I see with it below): If we can have cameras for red-light runners, why not something similar at key spots off of the main road. This takes the responsibility away from people to make a call (assuming they could even get cell coverage) or actually get out of their car to fill out a paper to put in a box (we are drive-thru people on the whole). The tapes could be reviewed when someone is missing, and it should at least tell if they were on the road or turned onto a spur. Even just a few of these in the right places might work.
People would squawk about privacy (probably even me), I’m sure, and I don’t know what kind of cost would be involved, or how you could put this up without unobtrusively but…
- JoCoSAR (170), I’m not an alcoholic, I’ve only been called one on the Internet. As for personal attacks, I haven’t engaged in any. I’ve criticized behavior and ideas, and as a result I’ve been personally attacked. Folks here will do what they’ll do and say what they’ll say.
I have yet to read a single idea, other than my own both here and on the other forum, that if followed would have saved Mr, Kim’s life or that would save any lives in a similar situation in the future. The various suggestions here have either been irrelevant or impractical.
For example, a sign-in sheet. Let’s be honest: The Kims ignored a warning on the map and three along the road, and went there without adequate gasoline or clothing. They obviously didn’t think it would happen to them. So does anyone really believe that these same people would have stopped at a kiosk in the rain and snow and left the names of their next of kin on a notepad?
JoCoSAR, you live in the area. You are familiar with the casual vandalism in the back country. After all, only a week or two after this incident someone burned down a Forest Service tower that included cell equipment. How long would a sign-in sheet last?
Knock yourselves out, but this challenge is in the realm of human behavior. You’ll get the biggest bang from the fewest bucks by working to increase the sense among travelers that they should take cautions seriously.
None of these things ever happen overnight. It’s a boring, dull educational task, and then it’s about sustaining and reinforcing it over time. When I was a kid, hardly anyone used seat belts. Now, hardly anyone doesn’t. It’s about changing traveler behavior, not putting WiMAX in the forest.
If you want to change travelers’ behavior, you must show them the consequences of bad decisions. That’s how successful public health campaigns work. But if you continue to dance around the core issue, then you won’t even have a chance in hell of getting started.
- PacNWer – I mostly agree with you..it is a dull, boring job that I will most likely have the opportunity to work on! I will continue to take all suggestions to the table, crazy or not. Understand, as I mentioned before, the ultimate responsibility for that property is the landowner, BLM and USFS. As we can make suggestions, they will make the decisions! Let’s hope they make the right ones…
- (223) Nobody here ever said you were an alcoholic Pac – YOU SAID THAT.
As for the personal attacks you do it all the time – do we really have to go back and list all the posts that you made personal attacks? You even did it today!
- Pac-
I believe you can get that point across and it does make sense without attacking the kims.
It is a huge PART of the solution.And as far as personal attacks, My wit and intelligence plus $1.50 could buy lots of starbucks coffee.
- 223/225 – For the record, earlier today when I mentioned Miller Time I was not calling YOU an alcoholic. While that line was not deleted, what was deleted from my next post (and maybe this will be, too) was where I clarified that I felt like it was ME that needed a drink. It was intended as tongue in cheek humor. At any rate, voicing any agreement with you Pac about raising awareness to save lives has become about as pointless as I feared it would be. I’m back to done again, which is what I should have done in the first place.
- http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122606_news_missing_family.4a2617f6.html
KGW.com Portland – Same subject as above, Oregon Sheriffs Association review.
- JoCoSar
I have a question. I didnt want to be reduntant so last night I went back and reread most of what you posted yesterday and I didnt see this asked but I apologize if its already been covered. I was wondering (and if you want to wait until the report is out thats fine) about a particular approach to the windy creek drainage. I read that the search started at one end and was slow going until they found james. I wanted to know why there werent teams placed in multiple locations throughout the drainage. Perhaps beginning middle end…
I read that searchers were lowered in by helicopter to where James was to recover him. Wasnt it possible from the beginning to chopper some of those guys in to a location further down the drainage and have three or more teams moving simulateously through the drainage? thanks and I understand if you want to wait.. I was just thinking this was perhaps something I didnt understand about that drainage… - Good questions Tara, I think it may have been asked, a bit differently though. I think that regardless of how it was asked, I am still going to have to defer my answer to Jan. 5th. Hopefully, I will be able to give you all of those details (if they aren’t in the report) after the investigation. I just am trying to be so very careful about my answers and this investigation…I am really counting on an accurate report! Sorry..promise to ask me again?
- Re: 224
JoCoSAR – I wanted to ask you some of the questions regarding this and what we were talking about earlier. You said:
“I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!”
Is there anything else besides signage that you think could be done or improved? Or do you think that it just happens often that people ‘get in over their heads’?
And do you personally believe that more, strongly worded signs in strategic locations would make a difference?
I’m also interested in a rough percentage breakdown of
the types of cases that occur on Bear Camp which require
SAR. - okay I will and thanks. I want to add something about the conversation yesterday. Someone (I think you) mentioned that the SAR operation was slow going on the roads because you werent sure if they had run off the road or what the situation was. I understand that completely. (though I am interested in examining the possibility of the fast approach going down the roads with a slower more methodical search behind..) When I heard the news report the first day (and I have been camped out here ever since-thanks Joe)all I could imagine was them running off the road up there and even if the parents hadnt made it, those babies might have. I couldnt get the image of those babies in car seats waiting to be found out of my head. I told my husband that even if it were a bad enough wreck to incapacite the parents the babies wouldve been in car seats and had a better chance. I was about beside myself thinking about those babies. So I completely get going slow in an effort to really “clear” the road.
I look forward to hearing more about the “fast, slow” approach idea and the “drainage approach”. My technical terms…. - 228 – katu.com is posting the same AP story, so it does sound like it’s getting out a bit.
- 232 – Tara, that does make so much sense having a fast team followed by a more methodical team. JoCoSAR, if you can say, in general is that a method that’s ever used in a search?
- I was also wondering if statewide there are statistics and studies done in areas where there are a lot of SAR incidents. And if there are any task forces or reviews that look for solutions to try to reduce or minimize the need for
and pressure on SAR operations. - http://egov.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
This is what is available to us…looking for more..
The next link is to the company who makes the handbook that we use in Oregon MSO. We call it our “bible.”
Not sure if this is what you were looking for?
- It’s not a personal attack on the Kims to say that their collection of misjudgments added up to serious negligence. And glenn, you didn’t use the word alcoholic but your and Maggie’s intent in messages 153 and 154 was clear.
deleted
- Tara RE: sign in via phone or paper: I think you are right that some people would not use it and of course you’d have to assume a missing person might NOT have used it, but I think one of the biggest advantages is simply forcing people to understand the dangers. The Kims eventually decided to turn around. Making this happen earlier in the process will save lives up there.
PacNWer re:Signs – I do not agree that the current signage is even close to adequate. I’m in the group that says the current signage is directed at locals who know that “Snow Drifts May Block Road” = “Snow will CERTAINLY be making the road impassable for much of the winter even if you have 4WD and there will be icy conditions and dropoffs”.
I think the cheap and ominous signs + check-in system would help put the fear of god into people as well as establishing more data points if a search is needed. It would not be a total solution but it would cost far less than other approaches which I think needs to be a priority even when you are saving lives.
PacNWer: Hey – no credit from you for a totally non-technical approach? I think there are many simple sign-in stations that are not vandalized much. The tab of paper and pen could be in a heavy metal drawer in a small concrete or metal housing – things like this are made for parks and wilderness area check-ins now. I would not expect locals to use this, but I think the Kims would have used it OR it would have helped them with *your* solution which is changed behavior based on more ominous warnings.
The problem with advertising to prevent these things is the cost (to develop and manage the campaign and then pay for media). Also I’m skeptical that even a big ad campaign would reach the key target for Bear Camp problems – people who are not familiar with the roads up there.
But hey, I’m some internet guy to be suggesting paper and pencil here. Technical solutions are cooler and have spin off benefits like I get to blog and upload pictures while rafting the rogue next summer. I say bring on the WIFI and more cell towers ASAP.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 7:35 pm –> | Edit - When asked last week, Georges Kleinbaum (State SAR Coordinator) had no examples of critiques or reviews to look at in the State of Oregon…great help that was!
- (23 maybe you could make the towers out of wood from your pencils.
- joe, I give you an A for effort anyway. Seriously, I do. I think if there are signs about the road being closed in snow and it’s snowing like hell as you drive up that road, as in the Kims’ case, that signage wasn’t the issue. It wouldn’t have mattered what those signs said; I think the Kims would have ignored them.
The key, in my view, is a public education campaign about get-there-itis. It could expand on the warnings not to drive when you’re too tired. It all taps into the same issue, which is the tendency to focus on getting to a destination at the expense of all reason, instinct and common sense.
The Internauts ought to be getting together and asking the states to put warnings on highway maps and at rest stops; asking Rand McNally to put warnings in their atlases; and contacting whoever does those public service announcements and seeing about coming up with a snazzy ad about get-there-itis.
But without nailing that down as the cause of the Kim tragedy, which in turn requires acknowledging their misjudgments as lying at the core of this whole thing, none of this has a chance of getting off the ground.
If Kati Kim wants to save future lives, she’d appear in some of those spots, urging people to avoid pressing on toward their destination without paying due regard to their surroundings and common sense. The only way this is going to work is if you plant a seed of fear back there that causes people to think twice.
I know, I know. Fear is a terrible word. I’m not mellow. I’m a sociopath, blah blah blah. But if the Kims had been appropriately wary of doing what they did, he’d be alive today.
- And you have to do it soon because you have a very small window of opportunity with peoples heightened awareness…
- I don’t usually do this but:
I just had an idea! I was thinking how great it would be if PacNWer would volunteer to be the Official Spokesmodel and “Smokey the Bear” of Personal Responsibility! His ambition and cause – fused into one! And he could fight the forces of evil “Get-there-itis” with extra warm clothing, food and supplies! He could fight off misjudgements and
mistakes with his keen spotting of signs, and making sure he always filled up at the tank before driving into the mountains, and never driving when it was raining or snowing!That would show his devotion!
- I know this is serious… and I feel very seriously about
it.But I couldn’t resist!
- Glenn – dude, they are gonna be HUGE pencils! Then I’ll sneak in and plant a long range broadband Wireless-N WAPs on top of each one with solar panels for power, and we are good to go with the Rogue Rafting blogging! I’m in.
PacNWer – I’m all for more public service spots but viewership is low on those. Big exposure=big money.
However in a very real sense this “public awareness” from the Kim’s saga is happening already and on a very large scale. I know local GPS sales were way up and I’d guess this is true nationally due to coverage. I’ve heard of many people who have changed behavior in response to the Kim’s ordeal with better car prep for trips. As one of 2006’s top stories I think the impact of this tragedy on the public consciousness will be large and effective.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 8:24 pm –> | Edit - Pac-
Im a little concerned that the assumption that they had “get-there-itis” is being presented as fact.
Im not convinced that it was just about getting to their resort. I really believe it was more about not knowing the area. Ive been exactly where the kims were. My family took a trip to oregon not too long ago. We were traving from roseburg and we were headed to gold beach. We looked at the map and decided to take that route (now I know it as Bear camp route). I convinced my family to take me to cresent city and to see some redwoods. If I hadnt done that we wouldve taken that route also. And believe me, we didnt have get-there-itis. If anything we had tourist-itis. We DIDNT KNOW BETTER.
Educating the public is important. But to have the kims get on a public service announcement as though they did something wrong, in my opinion is strange. I dont think they intentionally did anything wrong.
I know they passed up the signs but they truly may not have thought it would be snowing up there. If it were raining low, I wouldnt have thought it would be snowing. I am not the most experienced traveler and I am not from the area, but isnt that the definition of tourist?
I think its going to have to be a combination of things to make this area safer. - Re: 231
I was wondering JoCoSAR, if you could write about any
of my questions in post 231, because I would really like
to hear your opinion and answers.I could just repost it again, but I don’t want to take
up the extra space.I’d really be interested in hearing your ideas about
problems and solutions… - Hi everyone.
I have a good memory so I dont usually re-read articles. From what I have read, I understand it was raining when the kim’s started their travels into the Bear Camp area. Am I wrong? Don’t feel like looking this up.
Thanks
Comment by mapper | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 8:34 pm –> | Edit
- That what I remember.
- 245 – Maybe it’s a reach, but insurance companies often have safety information in their billing inserts (OK, I don’t get paper statements anymore either, but they do this kind of thing) and in their commercials, even on their websites. If they could be convinced to include something like Pac’s message, addressing some of those good points, and they will be paying for advertising anyway, then it gets out there without more cost. It’s in their best interest, too, which is why they already put safety info out there.
Pac, sincerely my intention was as I stated above as tongue in cheek having myself a drink in frustration. If it appeared otherwise and was offensive, then I do apologize. I’ve not ever called you a name or hinted at one in the past and have no intention of doing so now.
- 248 – Mapper, I can’t remember that for certain and have searched through all of the articles I have, but it does make sense that it may only have been raining when they entered the area since they were able to head to a lower elevation out of snow and into rain (which, sadly, is where they woke up in snow).
- Speaking of personal responsibility cartographers are educated to *communicate* to people, to design maps in a way that everyone can understand. The DOT map is not that. We cartographers have a personal responsibility to make a map that *tells the truth* and does not leave any guess work to the map reader. An intelligent person definitley could and probably has been, many times mislead by that DOT map. It is not clear and to say its clear and was ignored is very upsetting to me because I can professionally say it is NOT clear. It can and should be done better, and that is personal responsibility, a personal responsibility to do our job well because we understand that people make decisions based on what the map is communicating. It is our job to speak to people like they ARE stupid…..its my career to do that. If they dont understand a map, its my fault, not theirs. If I wanted to be a jerk, I would make it hard to understand to make me feel better about how awesomeley intelligent I am compared to the uneducated map reader. Map makers communicate to their audience the same way professional speakers do. They know their audience and tailor the speech to them. A road map should be understandable by anyone capable of getting a driver’s license, and to anyone from out of town.
I assume cartographers in Oregon, ones employed by the DOT or USFS or BLM feel the same way about this as I do. I certaily hope so.
- Re: 248
Hi mapper! That’s what I remember too.
- Maggie,
I am quite certain I read that it was raining when they started. It would also, for a travller especially, be hard to know if it would turn to snow by going up only a few thousand feet. As I have said before, its not like going up to Lake Tahoe. The elevation is fairly modest and especially to a traveller if they don’t even know how elevated it is, as there certainly isn’t much topographic information on the road map.
- Re: 252
You go mapper!
- 254 – I’m agreeing with you, just could only find reference to raining where they stopped.
- Re: 246
I agree tara.
- Maggie, sorry, I didn’t mean that to sound harsh. Its just the more I think about the more I am certain I read that, also just dont have the source.
- Sometimes local newscasters do safety/prevention info
ads. I’ve seen them about the dangers at the coast,
about riding bikes with no helmet, about fire hazard
issues, and more. Maybe that could be an idea for the
safety aspect of the situation. I don’t know how those
ads get started or who pays for them, but it seems to
be a cooperative effort between local news stations and
various agencies involved in those issues.Maybe all the awareness and attention paid to the Kims’ story would make local news stations more interested in making some “when traveling” safety info ads…
- public service announcements – is that the technical
name? - 246 – Tara, I’d have to agree with you there. I like the ideas as general ways that people should actively avoid situations such as the Kim’s, and I think it’s a great message that needs to be out there more, but we don’t know what the Kim’s mindset was each step of the way. At some point I’m sure they were just trying to get out, wherever out was.
260 – PSA’s are a good thing and can be free through TV/radio stations, but sometimes those are the ones that wind up at 3:00AM while the paid ones get a better time slot.
- I think people’s safety awareness was raised by this
story. I also heard that GPS systems were one of the
top 3 bestseller this Christmas.I guess the only potential setback with PSA type ads
would be with the localization of them. It would be
harder to have them everywhere. Especially if they
focused on regional conditions, i.e. mountains, rain,
snow… - Frankly, I feel that the public service announcement has gone through very clearly already and before the Kim’s tragedy (the part about personal responsibility and driving or travelling). We have a whole class devoted to it – driver’s education. At least we have this in Illinois. I agree the Kim’s made mistakes, but they were based on bad information and not get there-itis. They purposefully wanted to take a scenic route.
If I called anyone 3 times to tell them I crossed a state line they would punch me in the face when I got there. (sorry Tara! But these are the people in my life!).
I dont think we need to be so careful it ruins the trip, the family vacation, adventure. So many people have said that the signs are confusing…and I have seen the maps. Everyone knows they need to be careful when driving in the winter, and personal responsibility. It certainly would help if the driver were aware it was going to be winter where they were going (by better signs and maps).
This is not the time for an expensive campaign to tell people what they already know.
- The only reference I have is this media article that states Kati Kim told someone about the rain and snow that night…
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
“At first it was only raining, she told Lee, but snow began falling as they got higher in the mountains.”
- I know that our paper has done them..they are called PSA’s (Public Service Announcements). Jeff Duell has been awesome to us in that respect (Daily Courier). I know that I still get paper insurance bills, but throw all of the inserts away without reading them! I pay all of my bills online now..
Lisa- I believe that I have answered most of your question in 231, I will look back and see if I can find it. The real answer comes down to this…I am still not set on one solution for that series of roadways yet. I am soaking in all of the suggestions here. I will be attending meetings regarding that area in the very near future. I have already been to one with BLM. The frusterating part is that in my meeting with BLM, they were only interested in 34-8-36, because that is their only road in question. The main roadway is FS. Again, politics! I am hoping to convince the Board of County Commissioners to override all of them and do something themselves…highly unlikely for a county about to file for bankruptcy! It may come down to our local SAR to pitch in their own donation monies to pay for a solution??? However, I have not figured out which, if any, solution sounds most feasible yet. Probably a combination of solutions will be best. I am pleased that the current signs have been changed now from “Bear Camp Road may be closed due to snowdrifts” to “Coastal Route may be closed due to snowdrifts.” I still think it should say “IS” closed, but it’s a start!
As I mentioned before, a critique of this magnitude has never been done in Josephine County, let alone on that mountain. This is the most difficult search in that area. I think that the Kims managed to get further away from FS23 than anyone else in history! (not a fact, just a hunch) - Thanks Gayle, thats what I remember. I certainly think that is an important thing to keep in mind people are judging the Kim’s decisions that night.
- Maybe a statewide PSA would be something that the Governor could implement after the report?? Wouldn’t hurt to make a proposal?? I will put that on my list of to-do’s for sure! I am sure that someone thought that Smokey the Bear was a dumb idea in the beginning too?! Funny sidenote: the kid’s show Dora the Explorer has a great little character already..he’s the “map!” Ok, ok, I have small children!!!
- (267) Don’t forget backpack…backpack…
- 263 – Mapper, I agree about not spending lots of money on it, but I do think that even if I knew better, I’ve made some of the same mistakes that could have cost me – reminders can be good. This is why I mentioned the insurance companies who already spend money on “safety” related information (in their best interest) being a great way to send a message perhaps in a more unique way (more money for better “marketing”, etc.) than typical PSAs. I know I’ve gotten information like what should be in my emergency kit from my insurance folks (as well as my electric company), so it wouldn’t be a leap for them to remind me that it can happen to me. I don’t know, maybe it’s more complex than that.
- Maggie,
Yeah, I’m not opposed to PSA’s. I just don’t think that is the critical part in these situations as far as what NEEDS to be done.
- 264 – Nice find, Gayle!
- Here is a link to our Family Emergency Preparedness Handbook..I may be able to talk “the powers that be” into editing it this year to add more on vehicle preparedness?? Last time we updated it, we added evacuation for wildland fires…just a new “flavor of the month!”
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/files/2005bookfinal.pdf
- (272) JoCoSAR you should implement a version of that in wiki style so that people with experience and locals can add their two cents to it.
- Glenn, I haven’t the foggiest how to do something like that..I can certainly give you the raw files and you could help me???? All of this stuff is plagerized anyway, we encourage that. Let me know if that is something that you would be interested in??? Or, you could contact the county Emergency Manager and I am sure that she would get them to you??
- (274) No problem getting that done for you guys. I think it would be a very easy step to help people. We might even be able to get it attached to the bear camp rd wiki that already exists.
Suggestion JoCoSAR if you don’t mind…when you reference a previous post with a response if you could put the post number in parens that would be great…just like I did with this. That helps people keep all the conversation threads straight.
- (274) It would be a good idea to start learning some of this technlogy…just like blogging has helped you some of these other elements are easy to grasp and provide results very quickly.
- I will certainly try..sometimes I can’t remember which response to reference…but I will try…promise! Sorry, I said I was a blogging virgin!! (oops, can’t remember that number either!)
- (277) It will help you later to when you go back to a thread you will be able to follow your response. Either way we figure it out…just wanted to give you a tip to help.
- 241 – PacNWer – you have repeatedly taken the Kim’s to task for various reasons and implied the signs were adequate. Early in my posts, I made the same assertion, but I have since changed my position. Regardless of what one might think of current signage, the public record clearly demonstrates that the signage is woefully inadequate. The Kim’s are the far from the first family to get stuck or lost up on Bear Camp…in fact it is – based on the input from JoCoSar and a host of other locals – an all to common problem. Clearly the current system of warnings is NOT working and needs revision.
- Hey, is everyone asleep in here??
- 206 – Censorship – thank you Joe…will do my utmost going forward to keep on topic and focused.
- 280 – still…….a……..wake……..
- Hi JoCoSAR – I’m checking in and out as usual.
Here’s a link to a story about the Sheriff’s investigation:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122606_news_missing_family.4a2617f6.htmlWhoops – DH posted that earlier… leaving it up anyway
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 11:56 pm –> | Edit - I’ve been checking in less frequently due to heat from my spouse who thinks this forum is close to video poker in its addictiveness (side note: I am not a gambler)…and my kids echoing similar comments. Not relevant, but just wonder if others are getting similar critiques from their significant others ??
- Sure glad that’s getting coverage!!! Thank you, you can remind me all you want!!
- (285) oops, I was referencing (283) Sorry Glenn!!
- (284) Not me…although mine is just glad that I have someone to talk to…he over impressed when I made him read through all of it two nights ago! I am doing actual work on the computer too, so what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him!
- RE: Story obsession criticism – me too Paul!
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 12:11 am –> | Edit
- 287 – we’re glad you have someone to talk to and doubly glad you chose to weigh in here and give us another perspective on all this. You have re-energized the forum, stimulated many great questions, and answered many as well.
You made him read through ALL of it ?? Wow…that’s persistence…
- 288 – so glad to know I am not alone.
- JoCoSAR, what kind of vehicle exactly does your SAR organization need? Specifics please? Aprox cost?
- (291) It might be easier to tell you what we do have?? We are really looking for a 4×4 extra cab pickup (or a few). Jackson County has a great fleet…this is what we have:
1 4×4 Dodge Ram (probably 1980’s) that broke down on search
3 4×4 Bronco 2’s (1980-early 90’s) one doesn’t work, we use it for parts.
1 1992 4×4 Ford F350 pickup to pull our gooseneck trailer with Snowcat
1 92 4×4 Expedition (belongs to Emergency Management)
1 (late 80’s-early 90’s) 4×4 Suburban (belongs to EM)
1 (1960’s) Military deuce and a half (Command Post)
1 old ambulance (dive team)
2 Argos (ATV type things)
4 broke snowmobiles
1 sled boat
1 IRB (Inflatable rescue boat)
1 old tucker snowcat
I think that’s about it… - (291) PS…and a bunch of really cool people!!!
- (292) OK, thanks. Wow, that was fast!
- You’ve got some really “vintage” stuff there!
- (294) well, there isn’t much to remember!!
- (295) as big as their hearts are, we look like the beverly hillbillies! It would be nice, if we had nicer equipment, we wouldn’t have to spend so much time repairing/maintaining. That is all volunteer time you know. All of the money comes from their donations as well. We bought a building with our Title 3 funds (becuase we didn’t have one). Jackson Co bought all new vehicles! It is really sad when they show up with brand new Ford F350’s painted pretty…all brand new equipment…doesn’t help our morale at all!
- Stupid question…. do you need rafting experts familiar with Rogue? I’m not one, but my son in law is, he grew up in Prospect. Me, I rode off road motorcycles for many years… now I hot dog up the hill to the green in my golf cart… pathetic.
- (29 The river program is truly run by our Marine Deputy, Ernie Fields. We only support him. He should be starting a river program soon (was supposed to be in November). You’re son should look into being an associate member on our Swift Water Rescue Team. Applications are online you know..
- OK, thanks for the info.
- (292) Does Jackson county or other counties help you by sharing ATV or Snowmobile riders and machines during searches? Or other equipment, etc?
- Sure, just like this search…if we call, they come assist under a Mutual Aid Agreement.
- I thought that was probably true. That’s good.
- 263 – Mapper: Re: the Kims wanting to take the scenic route, that has been one thing puzzling me. By the time they ate in Roseburg, it was dark with bad weather coming or already there. My only recollection of taking an OR route to the coast was through Elkton, and wild horses wouldn’t have dragged me through there after dark, I wanted to see the scenery, critters alongside the road, etc. Especially with kids.
So unless I had reservations (paid?) at the coast, I would have wanted to wait in Roseburg overnight and go to the coast. The only fly in that scenario was their room reservations, the point of visiting Gold Beach.
269: Maggie: I’m envisioning the Geico Gecko doing a PSA, packing his tiny little car up with necessities, extra gear, supplies, etc., all the while talking his patter about being safe when traveling. It would reach a lot of people and be good PR for Geico. Hope it doesn’t sound disrespectful, I guess my ideas get stranger as it gets later, LOL.
- (304) They did have paid reservations, and even called that evening from near Albany, which was where they last got gas to say that they would be a few hours late to their room.
There has been speculation about whether they actually stopped at Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce and asked for a scenic route or not. Chamber swears they did, Kati swears they did not….hmmmm… - I would imagine the Elkton route to coast is a freeway compared to Bear Camp. I travel the Elkton road between Reedsport and Suthlerland lots, even at night. Pretty good road.
- (306) That’s the way I go to ride my quads at the dunes…it is not even a comparison to Bear Camp Rd.!!!
- Quads at the dunes, that’s something I’ve sorta wanted to do.
- Got to snooze now…get rested for tomorrow..thanks again for another great day of chatter!! Have a good evening! Be back tomorrow…
- (305) Oh for pete’s sake, JoCoSAR! I’ve been wondering where they last got gas for a month! Did the credit card records reveal where they got gas?
- (310) sorry…guess I didn’t hear you ask??
- Yes, they got gas (as shown on the credit card) in Halsey (near Albany) at the Shell station at about 5:45pm I think.
- (312) the “I think” part was only about the timing…
- (312) and to think it only took you 15 minutes after I posted it to read it…hmmm
- I’ve definitely noticed that little discrepancy about Kati saying they didn’t go by C of C, and the Chamber saying that they did go there. But I thought early on Kati DID say they went to Wilsonville C of C for a scenic route & map(scenic in the dark?), and then it seemed like she changed her story. A curious detail, it’s like she didn’t want to seem, uh, er… what’s the right word? Don’t wanna say it for fear lightening will come out of the computer screen.
- I was bound to make somebody mad around here…better to do it just before I leave the forum for the night..I guess I should wait to see if there are any other easy questions that I can answer for you before I go so that you don’t lose anymore sleep??
- D.H. I also wanted to chime in that Highway 38 (Elkton route) and 42 are nothing like Bear Camp Route which is not at all a “regular” type of highway like those.
Thx everybody for staying tuned!
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:30 am –> | Edit - I don’t think D.H. was mad at you JoCoSAR, she just meant she’d not heard about that gas purchase detail until now.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:31 am –> | Edit
- (311) oh… I didn’t ask here. I’ve just been wondering about it all along in relation to how much gas they headed up Bear Camp with. Then out of the blue you mentioned it… I couldn’t believe it. It hasn’t been in the media at all. They just mentioned that they stopped in Roseburg for dinner, nothing about gas. I’m so pathetically curious.
- Well, I know of someone who interviewed her at the hospital and she said that she hadn’t gone there…maybe she did change her story, but not until later..seems all kinda dumb not to admit that, I mean it wasn’t as if nobody would find out that they took a retarded road in retarded weather if she didn’t admit to looking for a scenic route in the middle of the night in the middle of winter!!!!! right?
See, I should go to bed!! - Oh heck no, I wasn’t mad at all… just shocked how that detail I’d been wondering about just popped up like that.
- (31 I know Joe, I was trying to be sarcastic..guess it didn’t work? Wait a minute..did you say that D.H. was a “her?” And all this time….guess that’s the problem with computer chat!
- Sorry about my #310 statement, JoCoSAR. I tend to get a little animated online, just like in “real” life. Unfortunately, you couldn’t tell my expression or anything online. Oops.
- Oh wow, I’ve been busted… yes, I’m a her. See? I couldn’t tell you were being sarcastic either.
- Now the question would be… are you a “her”? Heh, heh, heh. Never mind, don’t answer that.
- JoCoSAR – D.H. already identified herself here as Djdee over at MailTribune Forum. [WAIT - I may have read post 95 wrong up above] But also note you can often tell gender from the discussion (e.g. “my wife said…
and you should keep that in mind to preserve your anonymity.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:37 am –> | Edit - (324) boy do I hate doing that number thing in the beginning…
So, any other dying bits of knowledge (that you think I can share yet) before I leave? - (326) I thought about that…thanks for the reminder! things will be much nicer here next week!
BTW, what part of djdee is obviously female? - (32 Probably not much! Thanks JoCo, see you later. So to speak.
- I’m switching to “JoCo”… I just can’t deal with that JoCoSAR stuff any more.
- Thanks D.H. talk to you tomorrow!
- You can call me whatever you want..want me to officially change to something easier?
- JoCoSAR I may have read post 95 above wrong – I’m not sure that D.H. is Djdee but it seemed “she” was saying she was…
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:47 am –> | Edit
- I posted on a thread over at MT once that revealed I am a woman, but that’s pretty obscure. Not really obvious on my part I don’t think, the gender stuff.
- Oh heavens yes, I am “djdee”, for sure. Another little tidbit, I’m a mobile DJ. My nickname is Dee. Thus, DJDee.
- 333 see Joe, I wasn’t totally crazy!
- D.H. I don’t want to reveal anything you want kept secret but didn’t you mean above to say you were djdee? If not I can delete these notes tonight…
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:51 am –> | Edit
- Oh no it’s fine Joe, don’t worry about it a bit. I don’t care, really.
- 335 Do you live here in Oregon?
- (339) Yes, Newport area.
- 325 Although we don’t need to talk about it, you already know who I am…you know I won’t say until next week…
- (332) Don’t go changin….. la la la. Not on my account, you can probably figure out that JoCo is you, i would think anyway.
- OK, all is swell. JoCoSAR it’s fine not to reference the post number unless it’s needed for the context. Few blog posts, even in blogs much more popular than mine, get over 50 comments so the format issues here are unusual.
Also in my opinion it’s fine to just note what you are addressing with an RE: if that is easier than looking up the previous post.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:57 am –> | Edit - ok, enough said. I get complacent here at night, thinking I am just around “friends!” I hate it when I do that..Joe has already reminded me how many people read this post without responding, I just forget….that’s the naive side of me! Sorry!
- (341) I do know? OK. Yeah… I think I do. It’s suspense tho.
- Hey, maybe we could set a record somewhere? How interesting would that be?
- Madeline,
Yes it is odd when you think about the fact it was probably dark by the time they got on the scenic route, and maybe it wasn’t why they took it after all, as they did also say they missed their turn so took this route instead.
Its really not of any consequence to me. Even if they were in a hurry, which could be the case, I still firmly believe the map is unclear, the DOT even admitted to not being sure what to do with the route on its map (the letter to Bob H. on the previous page of comments). Along with the vauge signage its my belief they just figured out they were in trouble too late. I think the fact it was raining and not snowing when they got on the road is another big factor in their decision making. Hindsight is 20/20.
- (344) well, you are around friends in my opinion. But I definitely am not trying to trick you into saying anything… sorry… not meant to get you in trouble, that’s for sure.
- RE: setting a comment record. Ha, it may happen if this keeps up! We’ll certainly hit 3000 comments by next week if not sooner.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 2:02 am –> | Edit
- Good night to all!
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 2:11 am –> | Edit
- Good night Joe!
- [...] Kim Search Comments and discussion – click here [...]
Pingback by Oregon Wireless Interoperability Network « Joe Duck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 2:14 am –> | Edit
- 284 – Yes, same here… I’m checking this while getting dressed for work, too…
- Sheesh, I go to bed early, and JoCoSAR says where they got gas…
- my findings are that the saab fuel tank at capacity is 301 miles. From hasley to galice without any side jaunts its 169.89 miles. If they didnt stop anywhere else they had a little less than half a tank of gas.
- I wasn’t very clear in my post. I was not comparing the Elkton route to Bear Camp Rd. in any way. My point was simply the scenic value of both routes would best be appreciated in the daytime, and when we drove to the coast on the Elkton route, I did not want to miss the scenery by doing it at night. I wanted my kids to see the elk, etc. (we don’t have many roaming elk in SoCal). I just could never figure out the Kims doing a scenic route of any kind at night, so I thought they probably just wanted to get where they were going and scenery wasn’t the priority. Sorry if the Elkton reference caused confusion.
While not an Oregonian, I did own property in Sutherlin and still have family there, but am no expert on the roads. As I’ve said many times, I am not into piling on the Kims or what they did or didn’t do at all, I just think we naturally look for logic in these situations and keep juggling the pieces of the puzzle trying to make them fit. They never will, because people make decisions based on things we can’t necessarily reconstruct.
- 355 – Tara, thank you for working that out. I was going to, and now I don’t need to. Interesting.
- joe (245) the point isn’t PSAs but rather public education. There are professionals who know how to do such efforts. PSAs are part of a public education campaign, not the whole thing. It starts with a cogent message, and then you figure out the means of dissemination. I’m not a pro at it, but what comes to mind quickly are PSAs, articles in the media, and warnings on maps, in atlases and at highway rest stops.
It really could be an updating of stuff already going on. There are lots of warnings already about driving while you’re tired. The Kims made a related mistake, and in fact being tired may well have been part of it. The underlying issue is the same: People are so intent on getting there that they do foolish and wildly unrealistic things.
The Kim tragedy serves as a vivid example of what can happen when you throw caution to the wind. By using it to update the already long-standing and I would argue pretty effective campaign against driving when you’re too tired, the Kimm tragedy could serve a positive purpose in the long run. But only if couched in terms of driver misjudgment.
As part of this, you Internauts should shift your emphasis away from the entirely ridiculous and even laughable James Kim, Hero of the Woods “meme” (I can spout the jargon, too) toward the long-term public education “meme.” Dare I call it “idea” or “concept?” Nah, let’s use “meme” so, like a Ph.D. candidate, we can make a shopworn idea sound fresh.
Anyway, there is a long history of public education campaigns in this country, and a long history of success with them. Seatbelts. Drunken driving. Child safety seats. Call the gas company before you dig a posthole. You name it, there’s been a mass educational campaign about it.
The problem with mass educational campaigns is that there are dull and take a long time. And in this case, the James Kim, Hero of the Woods “meme” would be the proverbial plaid golf pants at the society wedding. No public education campaign on this one is going to have a ghost of a chance without targeting what got James Kim killed in the woods.
tara (246), you’re right that there’s a chance it wasn’t get-there-itis. But the evidence quite strongly points there, given the multiple ignored warnings plus the Kims having resided in Oregon prior to moving to California. These were not people who took a freak wrong turn.
One thing that should happen soon is for Kati Kim to give a candid interview to a reporter who will ask the questions that need to be asked. There’s no need to be as pointed as me, although I’d love to be the question-asker, but there is a need for a thorough review of the actions and thinking that got them to where they landed that day.
I would be very suprised to be wrong about get-there-itis, i.e., the sunk-cost fallacy, but I can change my mind to fit new facts or a better interpretation, as I did in re-examining the phone call issue with the undersheriff. I think it’s time for Kati Kim to take off the black crepe and give a real interview to a real reporter.
mapper (252), you have to consider the ODOT map in combination with the road signs. The snow closure notice on the map was unambiguous, and so were those big yellow signs. Especially given that it was, ta-da! snowing like hell. Come on, even a pair o’rocket scientists like the Kims could (and I suspect did) figure it out. They simply ignored it because they really wanted to get there.
My mind really could be changed, but the more I think about this the more I believe that virtually nothing in the way of signage would have changed their minds that night. The way to get to people who do stuff like this is to plant the idea in their head that they’re making a classic error.
That’s how seatbelt and child safety seat and drunken driving and driving-while-tired campaigns have succeeded: Not just by individual warnings, but by tapping into a larger safety message that’s already out there.
DH and JoCo (various messages), I see how they got gas in Albany; that they called the resort from there to say that there were running late; and that there’s an ongoing discrepancy in where they got the ODOT map. They obviously should have tanked up again in Roseburg, but there are some other issues and questions.
First is that they missed not one but two chances to go over to the coast on good roads; not just Hwy 42 down south, but Hwy 38 near Cottage Grove. Recall that these people had lived in Eugene for a time; he apparently not for very long, but she for quite a while. This begs the question of whether they had planned on Bear Camp Rd all along because it looked direct on the map.
Also, another poster here claimed to have talked with someone who said that the Kims had been on Bear Camp Rd. prior to that night. JoCo, do you know anything about that? And finally, does anyone know what time they got the gas in Albany?
It’s two hours from there to Roseburg via I-5 but they didn’t get to Roseburg until 8 p.m. It’s a little over an hour from Albany to Portland, where Kati Kim’s college friend said they’d shared “brunch.” I’m wondering how they spent the day. Did they maybe go from brunch over to the guy’s place to smoke a joint, and then lose track of time?
It wouldn’t be the first time in the world something like that has ever happened. Even with young kids in the car and maybe a diaper change needed and some more of the typical parent-child stuff on the road, it doesn’t take from brunch to 8 p.m. to drive from Portland to Roseburg on I-5.
- Pac Person: Why would someone continuously begin making some valid points and then destroy any pretense of credibility by inserting speculation about the Kims being laid up somewhere smoking joints? I guess most of the others have learned to skip over these posts. I just don’t get the fixation with pot, is that a favorite theme?
- Madeleine, I’ve mentioned it twice. It’s not a fixation. I’m just wondering what made ‘em late, and it dawned on me that it might be the same thing that made ‘em careless.
- Its really strange to me you think they were smoking a joint. Where does that idea come from? seriously. As a parent and after reading Katis bog it makes more sense that maybe they went shopping. unless you know something we dont. I find it a stretch to assume when someone is vacationing and it took them longer than expected to get somewhere that they were smoking pot.
- I don’t think they were. I’m wondering.
- Where is Kati’s blog? Does she talk about the ordeal?
- I could wonder if they stoped to wash an elephant. Im not being rude pac, Im trying to figure out where that idea comes from. Its a HUGE stretch unless you have knowledge that perhaps that was a part of their routine. Again, to me, its as far fetched as me suggesting they lost track of time washing an elephant.
- Pac- (364)we seem to have lost track of the link.
- sorry 363
- Without any valid reason for speculating about smoking dope, it just doesn’t make sense. Unless there are any supporting facts or reasons for assuming they smoked pot, why not speculate that they were looking at antiques, taking a nap or looking at real estate prices? Makes about as much sense with no facts to go on.
- 363 – Pac, it’s not a blog but comments and reviews on Yelp.com, a site where people can review local businesses. The links are somewhere above. Mostly she posted something thanking folks for their support (did not mention smoking pot).
- I’m sorry to have offended the Kati-As-Modern-Day-Madonna Society. Lost track of the link, did you? Yeah, and I’m going to sprout wings and fly to Neptune on Thursday. But not before blowing a joint.
- From one of the initial reports on CNET
http://news.com.com/Search+for+missing+CNET+editor+shifting+north/2100-1028_3-6140265.html
Ryan Lee, a longtime friend of the Kims, told the San Francisco Chronicle that he had brunch with the Kims in Portland Saturday. The Kims told their friend they planned to stop by a clothing boutique in Portland before driving to Gold Beach, where they said they had a hotel reservation at the Tu Tu Tun Lodge for Saturday night.
Comment by Ellen | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 10:16 am –> | Edit
- 370 – Thanks Ellen!
- Pac that was uncalled for. Everything is posted above. If you’d READ you would find it. You will also notice that the link posted above ISNT working. I didnt do that. I cant do that. It seems to have been taken down or the link is incorrect. Ill wait for that “change of mind” ability you have. Let me know when your ready to change your opinion of my 365 post
Comment by tara | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 10:20 am –> | Edit
- Okay, it wasa clothing boutique and not the Evil Weed that delayed them. Whew! But wait. Did they smoke a joint at the boutique? Nah.
- (305) Since it was dark I couldn’t see anybody asking for the scenic route directions…unless of course it was some sort of sarcasim…
I don’t see any reason not to believe the Kati…she could have forgotten some of the details definitely not uncommon – traumatic amnesia. Happened to me many years ago and took a couple of years before I could remember a lot of the details…funny thing how your brain works to protect you from thinking about just how close you died!
- From my memory, they didn’t have “brunch” until about 2pm…more like “linner”
- (373) Putz
Oh wait…congratulations Pac you have been upgraded to **** too.
Sorry Joe…you really just need to ban Putz…I mean Pac.
He doesn’t nothing for this forum or your site.
- 374 – Glenn, I wondered about the idea of it being a scenic route, too – not many routes are scenic in the dark. I’m inclined to think it was missed turns and what appeared as a viable alternative on a map that had some warning, but not enough considering, as mapper has pointed out, that it was only raining when they headed that way.
375 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. I wondered about that as well – brunch can cover quite a range of time.
- JoCo (375) what about the report that the Kims had traveled on Bear Camp Rd in the past? That was posted twice on this site but has yet to be verified. If that was their second drive on Bear Camp it would matter.
People shouldn’t get so bent out of shape about my asking if they stopped to smoke a joint. Not a lot different than having a beer or two. Or so they are always telling us. Why such shock ‘n outrage at the question?
- (377) I think we can all agree they made mistakes and made the wrong turn and got on the wrong roads…
JoCoSAR can confirm some of this…it seems like anybody and everybody who has ever gone down those roads has gotten lost at least once but many have found their way out and some were lucky enough to do it in the summer.
Obviously the signs aren’t working, maps are wrong etc…
- (37 putz
- Maggie, the map in question had a box with an arrow pointing to the road. In that box, in red, were the words, “Route Closed in Winter.” In addition the Kims passed not one, not two, but three nice, big yellow signs with snow warnings. And guess what? It was snowing like hell. Why do you insist on making excuses for their gross negligence? She’s 30 years old. He was 35. Ain’t it about time someone grew the hell up?
- (381) putz
- Re: 358…Pac, in the process of doing a word search for the word ‘hero’ on all three pages of this blog I found that the person who most used that word seems to be YOU.
Except in response to the anti-hero campaign, no one on this blog has used the word hero in reference to James Kim since 12/9, page 1, post #246.
You were not the first to show up and post a contrary opinion. On 12/9, page 1, post #269, GhostCat shared their thoughts to the contrary, although in a less acerbic way. GhostCat seems to have felt they made their point and gone away, their last post being page 1, #275 on 12/10, the very next day.
It was after you arrived and began to post on 12/11, page 1, post #400 that the ‘hero’ word was typed bigtime, initially by you and then by others in response to you, and has been ever since.
Others were called heros throughout in this blog… SAR and John Rachor, for example, and continue to be and rightfully so.
YOU are the only one keeping the hero thing going, now into the third page and approximately 2500 posts of this blog!
Congratulations!
- Note for all…winter officially begins December 22.
It was raining while they were traveling…it didn’t start to snow until they reach higher elevations.
Dozens of people have been lost on those roads…
Gate wasn’t closed…
- Speaking of growing up, grown ups should be able to communicate without swearing. Joe, how about just deleting any postings that use swear words? The name calling on Pac’s part and our responses with the name calling is not grown up. I don’t know anything about blogs or webpages or whatever this is, but maybe there is a way for you to have it automatically recognize obscenity words and just delete those posts.
And everyone else, let’s help Joe out, no matter what someone else says, please let’s not respond with personal insults or swearing. We cannot control what others have to say, but we can control our responses, let’s try getting back to civilized, which is why most of us like this forum.
- (383) James Kim does fit the webster definition of the word Hero…on multiple counts. According to the sheriff he was also superhuman. So I guess that makes him a SuperHero!
What putz thinks doesn’t really matter.
- (383) Gayle, that is actually hysterical, good job!
- (385) Believe this blog and forum is mild compared to 98% of the other discussion forums.
We should remember how nice this forum is when Pac is not around.
- (384) glenn, I agree with you. To me winter is about December 22. And it was not snowing like crazy when they started up that road, it was raining like crazy. It would be good to educate the traveling public about mountain weather, I think if you are not from the mountains you don’t realize how fast it can turn. We got stuck in a foot of snow with an 18 foot travel trailer in the mountains in Montana, in JUNE! And we had an extremely close call in Switzerland in September. You do not need to prepare for snow in Illinois in June or September. But in the mountains, it can happen any time. So I don’t think MAY be closed in WINTER is the best wording.
- Re: #364…I could wonder if they stoped to wash an elephant.
Tara, good one, that cracked me up.
It took time to drive to Portland from Seattle that day. They had a late brunch and visited with a friend. That takes time. Judging solely from Kati’s blog, she likes to shop. Also takes time. I can see how time got away from them that day.
- 378 – I have heard no confirmation of them ever being on this road before..that doesn’t mean it’s the gospel, but I would imagine that I would have heard…
The only place I have heard that is here… - (391) Yes another pearl of wisdom from Pac.
- Oh great, we woke up with a big tree leaning on the house and 4 more that need to come down. Gosh I love trees!
- PacNWer – smoking a joint? You want a credible theory ?!? One that people won’t laugh at ??? They live in CA. They had come from Seattle. BOTH states have high sales taxes. Oregon has NO sales tax. There are several factory outlet malls on their route. They have 2 young kids. Christmas is near. THEY WENT SHOPPING !!!
- Wind storm up here on central coast last night, and it’s still not over.
- Hope everybody is listening…if you are from San Fran and own a trendy clothing shop…you must be a pot smoker!!!
- Re: 389… My husband and I drove through the mountain pass by Mt Rainier, can’t recall the name of it, and found snow over a foot deep at those elevations in July. That was a surprise to us and we drove the passes a lot back then!
- You are so intent on degrading their character you blatantly overlook the most PLAUSIBLE explanation and substitute for it one that has NO BASIS IN FACT, nor any reason to suspect it beyond you want to smear them.
- DH- central OR coast? I should call my daughter…
- 220 miles from Halsey to Gold Beach, if that hasn’t been mentioned. So they started Bear Camp with less than a half tank of gas then?
- 381 – All I can say, Pac, is that I’ve made similar decisions on similar roads in the past based on the unknown or what I thought I knew, and I’m fairly intelligent/safe most of the time. I was lucky and lived to tell about it. James Kim wasn’t. People make what turn out to be bad decisions all of the time but rarely because they think something “bad” will happen to them or because they don’t care that someone will die – instead, I think most folks don’t truly realize what the worst case scenario could actually be and tend to believe that it won’t happen to them. You can argue all you want, and maybe you are not completely wrong on some points, but I don’t think you are going to change anyone’s mind. We’ve all thought about it, even read and considered your points during your more civil moments, and it doesn’t sound like many of us buy it that we should sit around and blame the Kim’s and call them the things you’ve called them, no matter how shockingly or over the top you want to state your point for effect. No matter what your motive actually is or what you say it is, it comes across as just wanting us to all join you in trashing the Kim’s – as if that would serve any purpose. Maybe you don’t make mistakes, but even if I might have done some things differently, I “get it,” how their possible lines of thought could have reasonably gone, and I don’t feel the need to “blame” them one bit. Learn from it, sure, absolutely! – there are things I’ve already started doing differently because of their experience. But, no, personally, I don’t think the signs sounded very ominous at all, nor the note on the map. On my own version of the Oregon State Map that I got from the driver’s license folks, it’s there but not all that bold – and it wasn’t winter (OK, technicality there – that one I would give you), and it was raining at first. The signs didn’t say “even though you see rain now, today there will be snow if you keep going” – year-round, the signs have the same generic message that there “may be,” though sometimes we know there also “may not be.” Perhaps the Kim’s thought it was one of those times since it was just raining, afterall. As Mapper mentions, the change in elevation is gradual, so they may not have realized that could be an issue – don’t know, wasn’t there. They made mistakes and by the time they realized it and tried to correct it, they couldn’t. So they stopped for the night instead of continuing to wind further into desperately lost – probably thinking “hey, we’re lost, we’re tired, it’s dark, and after some rest and the benefit of daylight, we can correct this and get the heck out of here with quite a story to tell.” Sounds like a pretty smart decision to me once you look around and realize that you’ve made a mistake. How could they have known they’d be trapped by snow in a place where they deliberately stopped because it was in a lower elevation where it was raining?
Anyway, argue your case all you want, and make it more and more damning and dramatic and shocking – my mind won’t change. Mistakes were made that people should be made aware of to prevent the same situation, and it’s worth getting that out there, but people will still be human and will still need help, and the SAR folks will thankfully not blame them but just try to save them.
- Yes, Newport. It wasn’t at bad as last couple of storms. Trees were probably weakened by previous storms. The wind storms have been hell this year over here.
- 385 – SUSAN – Thank you, our perpetual voice of calm reason in a maelstrom of madness.
- Hey, all this fighting makes it hard to find the other comments… not a mad cristicism, just true. Of course with a tree on my house gives me a bit of perspective.
- (37 Pac did your parents do something horrible to you?
- (403) I disagree
- “Theory helps us to bear our ignorance of facts”…George Santayana
Once the report is out and JoCo is able to answer unanswered questions, we can put all our theorizing to bed, I hope.
- (37 Joco, thanks for confirming that you haven’t heard that they were on Bear Camp before. It was an odd couple of comments by a local, and after I called attention to them and asked him to explain further, he just dissappeared from the board! Will post his info when I remember or find it. (RE: Kims having driven Bear Camp before.)
- Re: 402 Thanks, DH. My daughter’s in Sheridan, another daughter in Portland. I’ve been to Newport. Nice place.
- Re 476 my post on page 2.
Mr. Bob Hollenbeck, Peter Sleeth would like to talk to you about the info in posts #836 & #442. “Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.” Perhaps you could call him or email him at petersleeth@news.oregonian.com
I saw your posts here and emailed Peter, he emailed me back and he seems interested in this info, if you wish to contact him.Peter Sleeth, Reporter
The Oregonian
1320 S.W. Broadway
Portland, Ore. 97201
503.294.4119Comment by D.H. | December 20, 2006
Just for reference purposes, this was my post asking Bob Hollenbeck more about the “driving on Bear Camp before” issue.
- Hi All and JoCoSAR -
I haven’t caught up yet today – I came up with some ideas last night and this morning. At this point they are just ideas.
I was thinking that if you decide to submit a proposal to Kulongoski for a PSA, potentially (hopefully!) linked to a Public Safety Campaign, you could suggest that Kulongoski could be the PSA spokesperson.
Those PSA’s tend to be the most effective when the spokesperson is very well known and/or liked, with a high postion of authority.
And the idea may also appeal to him a lot – to volunteer!
I also came up with a potential Public Safety Campaign slogan:
Travel Safe
It’s the Best Way to Get There
There could be a PSA where Kulongoski is driving, with chosen appropriate talking points about safety and hazards in rain, snow, mountains, at night, etc., about reading maps and signs carefully, about arrival times and considerations, etc.
It might sound like a lot – but a lot can be said in a short time slot. We see/hear it in commercials all the time.
He could stop, open up the back of his vehicle, talk and show his emergency supplies, etc.
Then when arriving at his destination, which could be either a beautiful scenic area or at a house, he could open the car door, say “Travel Safe,” get out of the car, shut the door firmly in a way that created emphasis and completion with the shutting sound, and say “It’s the Best Way to Get There.”
He could then open his arms to his scenic surroundings, or at a house, walk toward the welcoming arms of family or friends.
I thought of various ideas for cartoon type campaigns but I just don’t think most adults woud take them as seriously as reality based campaigns.
Potentially this could even become a national on-going Public Safety Campaign with Governors from each state successively being the spokespersons and discussing
the driving hazards particular to each state.I think Governor’s would like the good PR, and it seems like an appropriate fit for them to do it.
Anyway, those are just ideas…
- By the way, issue in post 410 isn’t as important to me any more. It just surprised me at the time, and I was trying to substantiate it.
- What if you saw a sign that said…
IF IT’S RAINING HERE
IT’S SNOWING UP THEREfollowed by
ROAD MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOW
ROAD AHEAD NEVER PLOWEDor something like that? Would you be as likely to keep going?
- He could just admire the scenic surroundings without
opening up his arms, etc. - 413 – Gayle, that would definitely be less generic and more direct. Simple and effective. I like it!
- I don’t know why I like Oregon so much, the trees are a double edged sword with me. We must have had a dozen trees fall on our house in past 6 years we lived in this location. I feel like cutting them all down around my house.
- This was a letter to the editor from today’s Oregonian:
http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1167184550315430.xml&coll=7
Can any of you with relevant technical knowledge comment on what the author is alleging ?? It could be a huge issue in future cases of lost individuals if his allegation is true.
- I think the signs should say:
“Road Closed For Winter
No Thru Route”
- Re: 413 Maybe add …
IF IT’S RAINING HERE
IT’S SNOWING UP THEREMOUNTAIN ROADS AHEAD
MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOW
NEVER PLOWED
CONTINUE AT YOUR OWN RISK - DH… I loved OR & WA but did not like wild fires or earthquakes, so now I live in MN with bitter winters and tornadoes. ::sigh::
- 419 – Even better, Gayle.
- I love the sign suggestions…
- sounds like you should be the new PR person for the GOV!!
- 417 – I’m not a technical expert, but I do have access to the Edge map from this case…it only narrowed location at 1:30 AM to a 26 mile radius..not close enough to bank on!
- Re: 419
Because I haven’t caught up yet, I may be missing
something – but that would take up too much room
on a sign. The print would have to be small, or
the sign would have to be really, really big! - JoCoSar – Your post 320 – Perhaps it was late at night and you were being careless, but it seems your comments in that post run counter to your stated (and admirable) position of not passing judgement on the wisdom – or lack thereof – of someone who gets lost. Is surprised me.
- JoCoSAR-
Did you see (411) about the PSA/Public Safety Campaign
ideas? I’d be interested in hearing your opinion. - re: 425 The signs for on- and off-ramps, welcome to (insert town/city), etc. are quite large. Dos size really matter?
- (417) Maybe cell transmission tracking is in it’s very early stages and we just lucked out with a good read from the Edge Wireless people. The technology skills are probably progressing quickly, especially with emphasis by Kim search.
- (424) Actually the topology narrowed the direction of the signal from the phone within that 26 mile radius and the obvious road in that narrow band was Bear Camp Road. That is how I understand it. It wasn’t 26 mile radius around the tower…it was from a specific direction and given the elevations there was a narrow path that pointed to Bear Camp Rd…is that correct?
- They should post a sign with skull and crossbones at the beginning of the road and it should state:
This road is unsafe especially between the months of October and April. There are many spur roads that are not properly marked and there is a good chance you will get lost and not found for months.
List of people that have died on this road
That pretty much would tell everyone not to go on the road between Oct and Apr. But I am sure some still would and be missing. Sounds like a fugitives dream…that route.
- (429) The tracking can be fairly accurate. Depends on the technology used and its implementation.
- 428 – Gayle, I’ve seen that much information and more on signs, so I do think it would fit. And the larger the better, anyway. If it was me (and we are all glad that it’s not, I’m sure), it would have Glenn’s proposed skull and crossbones along with your proposed succinct yet powerful message… and then be blindingly neon pink or some atrocious color that stands out even with just light from headlights.
- (426 by Paul) JoCoSAR was just voicing a thought, leave it at that, hopefully. I’m sure his/her overall attitude is to assist all equally, no matter what. JoCo was not expressing anything different than thousands of other people thought, plus I think there was a bit of sarcasm there. I don’t know, not a biggie to me, that’s for sure. I would like JoCo to remain comfortable here, like he/she is among friends, which I sincerely believe to be true… my personal thoughts. You gotta lighten up once in a while when you have such a serious job such as law enforcement. Let’s not make a big deal of it please.
- (431)by Glenn. Yeah, a fugitive’s dream, like Higgenbothem for instance? Different road, same area.
- 433. I think larger is better too… Maybe though two less large signs positioned a little ways apart, each carrying a portion of the message. And the word WARNING on at least one of them, too.
- 426 first – You are right..it was a very candid comment very late at night, it was not specific to Kim’s, more of a frustration of the whole darn thing!! I don’t believe that it was even directed at the Kims, more of the road and the weather..Sorry, I will be better tody!
430/424 – About the ping map. Yes, you are right..the radius was only one sector (1/3) of the tower (wouldn’t that be 120 degrees with three sectors?). That sector was facing the direction of Bear Camp Road. With all of that said, line of site, etc…There were approx 30-50 colored areas that it narrowed it down to. Yes, Bear Camp Rd. had a “splotch” on it, but not precisely on the road or in the area that they were eventually found.
I sure hope that a copy of that map is printed somewhere after the 5th, I think it might clear a lot up! Maybe we could have it posted on the SO website?? Not sure about the laws, etc.. - (431)by Glenn. YES!!! A list of names of people who have died on the road. Extremely effective. It may seem to be distasteful to some I’m sure, but then, death is pretty distasteful, and preventing it would be great.
- I’ve commended her several times for her participation, and continue to, it was just so incongruous with everything that has come before I feel it important to ask. You may well be right, but she should clarify, those are pretty strong comments.
- 438 – I think that I mentioned a statistics sign that SAR wanted to do in the area, maybe all wouldn’t read it, but some might??
- 439 – come on..cut me some slack!! How can I redeem myself for being partly human??
- 417- Where I was going with that post was, are cell phones reliable or not ? The author seems to be stating they are not. The Kim story, and others, seem to suggest they are. Are erroneous readings / coordinates possible ? If so, are they common or rare ? Is there a margin of error ? Could be a crucial issue the next time someone goes missing and a cell phone ping is uncovered.
- 441 – had not seen your 437 when I typed 439…a common problem on the post (you’re typing and someone responds in the interim). You’re a much faster typist than I. Sorry.
- (439) see (437) and (441) I think Paul typed that response before he saw your (437) and therefore during a 10-83 he missed your response.
See JoCoSAR how helpful those parens are.
- 320 “Well, I know of someone who interviewed her at the hospital and she said that she hadn’t gone there…maybe she did change her story, but not until later..seems all kinda dumb not to admit that, I mean it wasn’t as if nobody would find out that they took a retarded road in retarded weather if she didn’t admit to looking for a scenic route in the middle of the night in the middle of winter!!!!! right?”
Wait a minute..I re read this again. I was defending her! I said that the road and the weather were stupid. I don’t think that is a big secret!!!
- (442) I think the issue regarding cellphones is precisely about the “pings”. Many times a ping is recorded in the tower and switch records. Those pings can be helpful in looking for someone’s last known location as far as a cell tower goes.
As for making phone calls…cell phone are just not reliable even in 2006…we still have a long way to go. They have the technology to solve the issues they just don’t deploy it.
You probably have all had a situation where you get a ping on your phone that you have a voicemail but when you try to get your voicemail you cannot get a call through. The voicemail indicator comes from the low level features on the SMS (texting) part of the phone. I think it would be a no-brainer for the phone companies to utilize this layer to provide even simple icons to let a user know they are looking for them, etc…
I think if someone knew that were being looked for and got some positive signal on their phone that someone was working on finding them; it would change their whole decision tree and could save lives in the future.
- (445) Thanks for the clarification…I misread it to when I first read it…
- 445 – I kind of thought that’s how you meant it, but as you know, it can be a little hard without intonation of speaking… I wondered, but it makes sense reading it over a few times and hearing how you meant it.
- Re: 428, 433
Sign size: I think it would be great for the signs
to be as big as possible.However, sign sizes are standardized, and usually
for practical reasons, they like to keep the message
as simple and direct as possible.There is the funding issue about having complex and
elaborate signage – plus there is the fact that it
is a scenic area – and they won’t want to have pink
signs.I also don’t think a skull and crossbones would work
for everyone – maybe people like the Kims – but not
youngsters or adventurers of certain caliber – they
might see it as funny and a “challenge.” - Speaking of cell phones… everyone’s heard of adding an ICE (in case of emergency) listing to their phone books, right?
- got it in mine..
- 449 – Lisa, I was being somewhat facetious. My point was that Gayle’s message about rain here/snow there said much in few words, and was direct yet small enough to fit and still be seen and is much better than a generic sign – those aren’t working. Ominous and direct are good.
- 450 – Yep, me, too. Great idea!
- 452… special signs for special circumstances, that’s all.
- Note to Self: Keep cell phone charged, do not rely on car battery when traveling.
On a related matter, I saw on another site a while ago that one of the TV shows covering the Kim story stated that OnStar would not work where cell phones didn’t work. Since I have it, I’m going to call them and ask, but I was under the impression that OnStar also utilized satellite communications. There are times I can’t get a good telephone call out on Onstar, but I’ve never been anyplace where I was unable to contact the Onstar operator.
- JoCoSAR -
Could you answer my question about (411)?
I put a lot of work into that.
- I think at this point noone would mind pink signs if it worked… scenic or not.
- ok, well everyone is quiet now..although I feel the desire to stay here again all day, I have a job to do. I am going to work on the investigation. I do truly believe (after phone calls this morning), that the report will be done by the 5th. There are 11 jurisdictions working on it from the outside so far. I will be so relieved when I can come back here and talk openly and freely..until then, I am trying so hard to be careful, and it seems to be way too much. I came here with a purpose..to keep your minds open. I think I have done that. There are a lot of positive things happening here, and I am sure many other places too. I am anxious to move on and start working on some of this stuff rather than dwelling on shoulda coulda woulda’s and who’s damn fault all of this is…it doesn’t really matter, does it? Anyway, some of you already know how to contact me on the “outside.” I will continue to respond as much as I can, but the mound of paperwork is calling..
- 457… at least red reflectors on the edges or corners of the sign, maybe.
- 456/411 Lisa – Absolutely! I wasn’t kidding when I said that you should be the Governor’s PR person! As a matter of fact, I already copied it and saved it somewhere I wouldn’t have to sift through all of this to find…I have a working file that way. I promise to follow up!
- Re: 454
People have been complaining about the signage not
being good enough for years! (Remember the editorial
from the local woman who lives on the roads?)For whatever reasons, they have not changed them.
The more elaborate they are, the less likely they
are to be implemented.They try to make sign messages simple so that it’s easier
for people to read them as they’re driving by!Believe me – I want the signage to be improved!
- (455) http://members.shaw.ca/sidewindercharger/ Sidewinder Emergency Cell Phone Charger. Wind up manual way to charge your phone, I got one. Haven’t used it yet.
JoCo, take care. Thanks for everything. Talk to you later.
- Re: 460
Sorry! I didn’t know you were talking to me!
Thanks!
- Wait, uhm, do the new signs need to be in Spanish, too?
j/k, it just popped into my head reading Lisa’s 461. - Why Spanish? James was Korean!
- (465) JoCo…..
- Quidado!!! No Vaya!!!
Or something like that, “Caution, Don’t Go” may be appropriate because there are a lot of spanish speaking only people living in U.S., Oregon and California. However, English is something everyone should speak who lives in this country IMHO. But reality is, they don’t.
- re 465… Spanish because isn’t that the second language in this country? Like I said, just kidding, trying for a lighter comment. Failed, sorry.
- Humor and sarcasm are very difficult on internet aren’t they? The various happy face avatars, etc. are helpful, but I don’t know the codes other than that work on this forum.
- 445 – JoCo – was also reading it the wrong way…lack of intonation and all that…the perils of typing – misinterpretation.
464 – One language and some kind of universal symbol for closure. - Tree guy is coming over to remove tree from house this afternoon… wheeeee!!!!
- p.s. Gayle – I liked your sign idea – I have worked
for state gov’t and I know how “standardized” they
like everything to be. That even may be why more
specific signs haven’t been made up for Bear Camp
yet…I like you!
Re: 460
JoCoSAR -
Also I didn’t mean it to be so much for the Gov,
as for the Public Safety Campaign. I just thought
having him be involved in that way might help with
necessary funding and moving things along – even
more – getting it done.Or maybe it would be better to have someone outside
of politics be spokesperson – I don’t know – just ideas… - Maggie (401) thanks for that post. I agree.
I have already posted about this in the beginning pages, but its been awhile. Pac likes to say that the Kim’s ignored an obvious warning on the map.
I am very pleased to see that most people are in agreement that “winter” is vague. November is hardly winter, as Susan has pointed out, even here in Illinois (we have some pretty cruel winters) November is not typically a harsh winter month. It can snow, but if it was not currently snowing and I was going down the road and saw a sign about snow drifts….well, I wouldn’t be too worried about it unless it had actually been snowing for awhile. As I have also said, the topo information on the DOT map is sparse, and the Kim’s may not have even known how elevated the area was that they were going into. I do not believe they knew it was going to be a terrible snow storm, or if they did know a snow storm was coming, that they were possibly ahead of it, our that it was further to the north. As I have also said, the elevations are around 3-4000 feet. Its not like 10,000 or 11,000 feet where you can be pretty sure you will encounter snow in November. I’m from Illinois, and this seems obvious to me. I have lived near Lake Tahoe though, and I lived down around sea level (near Sacramento) and my friend lived in Nevada City (up around 3-4000 feet). We had a difference in temperatures in the summer, and they would get snow when we would get rain, but the differences were very slim compared to the differecnes between sea level and 10,000 feet. I get the idea that the weather that night, it was a very fine line between rain and snow, but if you were at the lower elevation it would have been very hard to judge that it would be snowing terribly at 3000 or even 5000 feet in November.
Anyway, that is all besides the fact, to my next point.
Pac, I have a masters degree in GIS, a B.S in geography I have formal education in cartography, I went to a school that is one of the last to teach manual cartography. Fairy elves do not make maps and we just have to accept what they give us. Highly educated humans for the most part make maps, however sometimes, since the field has become so technical computer science majors are now making maps that do not have the formal cartography training.
In addition to my education I have worked for the military, FEMA, several municpalities, engineers and a regional planning agency. I have made maps for police, I have done databases for emergency 911 call centers, I have trained Airmen in the Air Force to make maps. I could go on about my qualifications, to say if that ODOT map is as good as it should be, but I am much more interested in hearing about your qualifications to be the judge of that.
Because I can tell you, that if that map were handed into me for a grade (and I am more than qualified to grade maps, as I am now more qualified than most of my cartography teachers were) I would give it a C at best. I am focusing on the Bear Camp area in particular. It has been posted here and I am not going to repost it, someone was even kind enough to do a close up and post a link.
Main concerns. They use a red line for the arrow — that would be fine if they were not also using red lines of the same line weight to signify some other more benign something. Never use red for two different purposes, in the same part of the map, especfially when one purpose is meant to be a warning.
Additionally, there was some pink text or something that did not match the red of the arrow. This detracts the eye and it does not appear coherent, the arrow does not even look like it belongs with the text in the box that contains the warning.
In fact, the red arrow appears so benign I did not notice it the first few times I looked at the map. Therefore, the warning box (that we have already pointed out says, Road closed in winter, is vague at best anyway) appears to be sitting atop an unpaved road. The line is actually the county line but unless you know your counties pretty well (and are really paying attention to the legend of the map) your not going to notice this warning is actually pointing at the road in question.
There is also very little detail on the road map, as it should be, it is a road map. But that is federal land. They should take bear camp road off the ODOT map all together or they have to put more detail in that section to show all of the roads, with the correct names, better warnings, and more topo info, and perhaps an inset that says to get a more detailed map contact USFS. Or they need to leave it off. Please refer to the second page for the letter from ODOT to Bob, as his backs up further what I am trying to say.
If they insist on leaving it how it is, simple changes could be made to clear up confusion. Change the wording of the warning, and the color of the warning and make the arrow a larger line weight, make the colors of the warning text and arrow the same, and different than the contours next to it. (they appear to be contours, red is a stupid color for contours, but I dont know that is what they are as I was looking at a close up of the map and there was no legend, regardless of the legend, its bad practice). They could also put a note that travellers should contact USFS for a detailed map of the area, and like Glenn said, should make it clear that wintere means Oct – April. There is more but I am tired of writing about this.
Pac, if you still dont get what I am trying to say, if you think the map is perfectly fine the way it is, please I am interested in your education, professional experience, and government experience. I do recall you saying you have little to none in the SAR department. What is it you do anyway? Because you trying to tell me that a map is fine the way it is, is like me trying to give you advice on how to be insulting.
- 473 / Mapper: all good, but esp love the last half of your last sentence!
…very well put.
- Mapper, that was interesting, informative and very clear, lots of good info. I love to peruse old maps and look for former roads, so it’s especially interesting to me to hear more about how maps are created. Thanks!
- Re: 473
go mapper, go!
Re: 475
Madeleine – I had wanted to say earlier that I really
loved your Geico ad idea – and I bet they would be
interested! - Almost halfway from 2000 to 3000!
- Appreciate the updates and comments from all. The sign suggestions are interesting. But in the end, no signs will work as well as a closed gate across the road. The road should be closed completely from late fall to late spring. If the only inconvenience is that locals have a harder time reaching their hunting grounds and getting free Christmas trees, too bad.
JoCo, is there anybody other than locals who would be affected by Bear Camp Road being closed all winter? I can’t imagine any logging goes on, or any hiking or rafting of any kind. Would the authority to gate off BCR lie completely with the USFS & BLM? If so, one would imagine they would have to give priority to the safety of travelers over the recreational opportunities of locals.
JoCo, it is great that you have joined us here and shared your thoughts and knowledge. We were all ready to crucify Sara R. for ignoring the news of car tracks on the road to Black Bar Lodge until you clarified that car tracks were all over many of the logging roads.
Once January 5 has passed, I will be really interested to read what you have to share. Two main issues that come to mind are:
-How did word get spread to the various agencies working the SAR that the road to Black Bar Lodge was clear? If Sara heard from the owner that he saw tire tracks on his foray, but discounted them as insignificant since tracks were everywhere, would she now have the integrity to admit that incorrect conclusion?
-How many more people must die on the logging roads in that area before they are simply gated off all winter? The cost-benefit analysis of that decision seems to make it a no-brainer. Can you shed any light on any reason for that road to remain open in winter, other than as access to free game/tree hunting grounds for locals?Thanks, and thanks to JoeDuck for keeping this going.
- And one other issue I’d like to read about after Jan 5:
BLM says they were supposed to gate off that road, but didn’t.
Others on this board have said that road is NEVER gated off.
Who is right?
- 473 – Mapper, thank you for lending an educated and experienced explanation as to why it is that when my novice, end-user eye looked at it: “that map don’t work.” I didn’t quite know or think of all the reasons why or what exactly needed to be done, but I just knew that the State map I got sure didn’t lend the sense of caution that the area deserves if it’s going to be included on the map. Thank you very much for your insight. Maybe we could get you to make the next round of maps for Oregon…
- 479 – Several of the locals who could hopefully shed more light on that question (Bob Hollenbeck, Spencer), have not posted in some time, not sure why. Have seen numerous posts both here and at Mail Trib that forcefully state it has NEVER been closed and locked.
- Wow, Mapper, thanks for sharing all that. Very interesting.
- re: Closed Gates & Cost/Benefit…
‘Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.’ — unknown
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” — William Pitt (1759-1806)
- @Lisa — your email… a most beautiful expression …deeply, I thank you -K.
- (478 Bill) “The sign suggestions are interesting. But in the end, no signs will work as well as a closed gate across the road.”
I tend to agree with your statement, Bill. The locals will either simply drive around the gates or find another road to get in, whereas the out of state or unfamiliar travelers would just turn around right there.
Of course I’m not a local to that area who needs to get in there, so I might be wrong… but I don’t think so.
Gates (locked or unlocked) plus ROAD CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC signs would prevent a lot of SAR search missions in that area… I would think substatially.
The gates should be early on Bear Camp road, not as far in as the Bear Camp/Spur Road junction. As close to Galice and Gold Beach as possible, so that travelers don’t feel like “oh well, we came this far, we might as well try to get through”. The FS, BLM, and Sheriff could take turns checking the gates a couple times a week, or whenever was deemed appropriate.
Maybe local SAR volunteers would want to check the gates, since in the end it would save them a much longer trip into the wilderness on future searches.
On freeway signs post ROAD CLOSED during appropriate times of year … also ROAD CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC all year for all I care.
- Thanks everyone. I also didn’t want to beat a dead horse by posting about the map again, as I did mention my concerns about the map earlier, but not in great detail. I did just look it up again
http://egov.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/docs/statemaps/Oregon_State_Map_2005_front.pdf
notice the liberal use of the color red in the entire map and in the legend.
- I still like the Skull and Crossbones idea, I think that’s pretty cool. Kosher or not, it would get your attention and get the point across.
On a more serious note, on the Skull and Crossbones sign could list HOW MANY people have died getting lost on Bear Camp Rd. You wouldn’t have to and really shouldn’t post their names on the sign. Too painful for the families I think, unless families decide they WANT the names there to prevent further tragedies.
It may be possible to post and hint that it is illegal to venture into the area unprepared. There may be some thrill seekers in the future who just want to go in and see where it all happened… having an inexperienced idiot going down Big Windy Creek just for kicks is not what you want to have happen.
- By the way, the tree guys came and are taking down about 6 trees around our house tomorrow. Just thot I’d update. Looks like there was no damage to house. Lucky again for the 12th time.
- You could also post on the “how many have died” sign how many searches have been conducted on that road in last several years.
- From my understanding however, I believe the road is gated off and closed right now because of slides, until the spring. So that’s good. But I was thinking of policies in the future that would apply permanently or certain times of year.
- re: 483
Safety doesn’t happen by accident. ~ Author UnknownBetter safe than sorry. ~ Everyone’s Mom
- 491 con’t…
- Keeping the road open as much as possible is important for reasons other than locals going Christmas tree cutting and deer hunting. Guided float trips on the Rogue are an important business for the local economy and that road is the most direct route back to Grants Pass from the take-out at Foster Bar (near Agness). The Rogue is well known for its scenic beauty and whitewater, but it is also a popular sports-fishery river. There ARE alternate routes that are used once the road gets snowed in, but they take considerably more time, are far less direct, and a portion of those increased costs are born by commercial outfitters.
I am ambivelent about closing it altogether. I think that should be a decision made with considerable input from the people who live in the area who would be most affected. Their economy has suffered dramatically from the curtailment of logging, the last thing they need is another hit to the pocketbook from folks who don’t live there and who would not bare the brunt of the ill effects from such a decision. If you mandate a process that does not have local support & buy-in it will be no time at all before whatever you put up gets pulled out of the asphalt and dumped over an embankment.
On a side note, the BLM has wanted to reroute portions of that road for years because it is so prone to slides that close it with alarming regularity, but there is never any money to do it.
- Joe, I just noticed that there is now a sidebar with recent comments – that’s cool (At least I think it’s new – if it’s been there all the long, I’m just oblivious).
- Re: 488 I bet that’s a huge relief to you, DH. =D>
- 493 – Paul, once again, you put my thoughts into words on the gate/no gate question. I’m convinced that there has to be some middle ground where it’s available to locals that want it “open” for understandable reasons but also somehow painstakingly clear to all others that it’s definitely “closed” certain times of the year.
- 496. – Going back to someone’s idea of a half gate that would allow locals to pass through but have a sign…
NO THRU TRAFFIC
OCTOBER-APRIL
??? - (473) Mapper, loved the last line. Perfect.
- 497 – Gayle, yes, something along those lines is my thought if it would work – and maybe more good/unique wording from you that has the same feeling as your rain here/snow there phrase that I’m so loving (I keep saying it, but gosh that was clever and simple and really paints a picture).
- 499. Thank you, Maggie
- #493Paul – “If you mandate a process that does not have local support & buy-in it will be no time at all before whatever you put up gets pulled out of the asphalt and dumped over an embankment.”
How about “CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC” with an unlocked gate that can simply be opened to drive through for local traffic, and closed again after you drive through? This law of the land goes on in eastern Oregon all the time. Open gate, go thru, close gate, go on your way.
- Of course in eastern oregon it has a lot to do with cattle and wildlife control. Different situation, same technique.
- 501 – D.H. I like your idea, but I always wonder whether people will actually close the gate behind them. Someone has mentioned a gate that automatically shuts behind you, but I have no idea how simple/cheap it would be – same concept if it could be done, though.
- I bet it could be done alot cheaper than a SAR operation.
- 504 – Very true, and with much less time and effort, too…
- I think if I were to present that idea to a decision committee I’d come armed with the total cost of the previous 5 years in SAR operations. Might really be telling and would void any “its too expensive” arguments.
- DH, I like your idea too. Someone earlier presented a gate idea, weighted somehow to self-close.
- 501/503 – seems reasonable to me…am sure there’s some way to insure it will close, just need a gate engineer…some kind of spring loaded set-up would work.
- re503Maggie: Well, put yet another big sign up or add to a sign… DON’T RISK LIVES, CLOSE THE GATE BEHIND YOU. Nothing is foolproof anyway, so it probably gets left open sometimes. All you can do is the best you can do.
- Several of my best friends are engineers. You put something like this in front of them and they just get giddy with the excitement of all the various wonderously clever solutions they can come up with.
- Spring-loading is interesting, but when does it close? That’s beyond me. If it’s affordable and workable, cool. But it has to be tough to discourage vandalism to an expensive system.
- re 510-511: Guess it could be affordable AND clever. Why not? Worth a try.
- About the locals again… I’m sure they’d be happiest with changing nothing for total access. But I’m just as sure they’re getting tired of all the rescues going on up there, hooplah generated by Kim search, etc. Besides, this reflects on all of Oregon, not just locally.
- RE: Sidebar comments – yes Maggie I just added that sidebar which shows the last few comments.
Bad news from China as they found the body of one of those missing climbers: Some of you here were also following that story: http://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/mountain-climbers-lost-in-china/
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 4:36 pm –> | Edit - 514 – Joe, that’s just awful. I’d heard they were finally starting to get some better clues. Been a tough couple of months for lots of folks.
- STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT THEY SAY!!!
Translation, while Kim tragedy is still fresh in public’s minds, Public Service Announcements and Word of Mouth to encourage travel and emergency preparedness should be emphasized now, when it is most effective. While people are still horrified that it could also have happened to them.
So at the very least, we can all make it a point to have a meeting with or make a phone call to talk with our families about:
When to just call it a night and stay in a motel instead of falling asleep at the wheel, or driving while our judgement is impaired by fatigue. Losing your money missing a motel reservation or missing another appointment is not worth risking your life. Our fast paced society makes this difficult.
Not taking dubious back country or logging road short cuts, especially at night and in stormy conditions, and especially in winter.
Consulting the locals about road conditions in their area.
Stocking our vehicle with emergency supplies.
Not overestimating what you and your vehicle are capable of.
Filling your gas tank at appropriate times, don’t risk running low.
Don’t overschedule your vacation time.
And probably more…….
It’s the very least we can do, but if we all do it, then the message will have been successfully received.
- (476) Thanks, Lisa, I kind of like the Geico idea, too. I cannot tell whether certain TV spots are ads or PSAs, i.e. oil companies talking about the environment. Either way, Geico could do well for themselves just doing an educational ad starring the gecko. He’s not too overbearing and I don’t think he’s irritating to people.
- 517 – That was exactly my point about the insurance companies in general as a possible messenger – they have money that they already spend on advertising, and it’s in their best interest. Win-Win. They have a better budget to pull off something that’s less likely to be one of those cheesy PSA’s that run for free in the middle of the night – don’t get me wrong, it’s not that those don’t mean well, but more money can allow more creativity and a better time slot. The Geico Gecko is an awesome idea because he’s a “character” that’s already out there. Even if any of the insurance companies could be convinced to put the info out there, they could “market” the concept well due to their resources and vested interest.
- D.H. (516) I do think awareness of travel safety is happening from the Kim saga. If you actually could do a calculation of “lives saved” by extra caution from all the media attention I’m pretty confident you would find that the Kim saga actually saved many lives from all the attention it got. But maybe even more attention is needed.
However note that if we use PSAs for travel safety we cannot use that time slot for for things like DUI, suicides, firearm safety. Those things would probably get a much bigger return on the spot in terms of “lives saved” since they kill tens of thousands per year.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 5:16 pm –> | Edit - 518 – That’s a very good point, Joe. If insurance companies were including it as part of their slant on their paid commercials that they already run, it wouldn’t need to take away from those PSAs that I agree probably do save many, many more lives.
Maybe it’s too morbid/heavy with this wording, but this just came to me, so I’ll toss it out there. Be safe (safety messages presented creatively here). “We’ll be there for your family, but they’d rather have you.” Sorry if that’s too cringe-inducing. It’s kind of like that car commercial that came out this holiday that showed a little girl singing Christmas songs and the ad said something about cars and safety and picking theirs because of protecting what you already have – point is, it made an impact because it was well done and made me think kids need to be in safe cars with good tires/brakes, etc. Not sure if that made as much sense typed out as it did in my head, but I think it’s an idea since they are already out there advertising anyway and want us to be safe in general (perhaps for different reasons).
- 519Joe: Joe, I think you have a much better prioritized list of things that need done than I do, expecially on a global scale. I’m thinking much more on a specific and local scale at this point. So you’re right that news organizations etc. do have to prioritize. But NOW is the time to capitalize on the Kim tragedy. I’m not really thinking in an ongoing mode right now, just in this instance concentrating on the job at hand with public awareness and SAR in Oregon.
- Maggie – I like that tag line !
D.H. Good points – we really we are talking local here not global, and even I’d say that whether it is perfectly rational or not you should help a neighbor before helping somebody across the globe. Well, unless it’s THAT neighbor
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