1,108 thoughts on “Kim Search discussion page 9”

1. The Kim Search discussion continues below.
2. Signage:
   The point I was trying to make is that a simple and rather low-tech solution of putting signs out that indicate which is the “coastal route” and an approximate indication of mileage is what would seem to most avoid any excursion down spur logging roads that lead nowhere.

   I don’t know how many such ‘coast/xxxmiles’ signs exist. I’ve seen none but my vision is poor and my computer is ailing. The major factor seems to be that at one particular point the wide and inviting roadway is the spur road and the narrow, uninviting roadway is the correct coastal route but this does not appear to be marked in a sufficiently prominent manner. It seems quite a number of people take the wrong turn in good weather. The Kims took the wrong turn in foul weather. It had fatal consequences. It was unfortunate.

   Better signage at a known point of confusion would have avoided the situation. Better survival gear would have made the mistake a very uncomfortable but non-fatal one.

   The road is clearly used by ‘tourists’ rather than merely local yokels who are more able to deal with inadvertant detorurs and more likely to be aware of local hazards such as winter snow storms and their consequences.

   High tech solutions such as cell towers or cell-repeaters might help. Better SAR funding might help. Better SAR coordination might help. Strobes, radios, satellites… all great. However, this was a “gadget man” and he had few things with him. A sign would have made gadgets unnecessary.

   A troop of Boy Scouts can post signs in one weekend. A group of disaffected youths who are incorrigible truants can be ‘turned around’ by giving them something with more meaning in their lives such as a project to create such road safety signs that will save lives. Its not costly and its not going to take long to get it done.
3. Checking in for just a quick minute at a very late hour. Just wanted to respond to an earlier question RE: the map provided to LE by Eric F. Unfortunately, we cannot publicly release that information, as it is privileged and was received through proper legal process only.

   However, that being said, it is my understanding that it may possibly become available through the OSSA report (?) or other means, shortly, thereafter.
4. Wilderness Outfitter stores.

   Many such stores concentrate on outdoor clothing but they also sell equipment and often have various ‘survival lectures’ wherein equipment is displayed and suggestions given.

   Ofcourse in the current times of rapid technology change and loction aware devices our needs may be changing, but right now food, water and clothing and signalling equipment are still high on the list.
5. Fools Gold

   Yes I agree about the sings (I think most people do).

   I was also thinking (for some reason as this usually doesn’t pervade my thoughts)

   I think a good method might be, to put two “wrong way” signs on either side of the logging road. I am sure many of us have seen this and it usually gets your attention and you don’t go that way. Maybe underneath would be the blm sign or route number (so its not meant to mean that its a one way road).
6. I’ve sometimes seen “no freeway access” signs in neighborhoods wherein residents get tired of cars making a turn in hopes of finding freeway access.

   I’ve sometimes seen other signs used in special situations. As much as possible, signage should always be uniform and comply with the usual conventions, so ‘wrong way’ should be limited to situations where cars are heading into oncoming traffic. Better would be “NO coastal access”.

   I know on freeways and some other roads I’ve seen ‘no motorist services’ or ‘next gas 133 miles’ or the like.
   It is a rugged area wherein the lack of signage is often valued, so we shouldn’t be planning on overly polluting the area with signs.
7. Fools Gold,
   Yes, of course. Often when I throw out suggestions like that its so someone else can build off it, like you just did. “no coastal access” would be a good one, in my opinion.
8. Madeleine, Francis

   Well, its my understanding that the California/Oregon thing needs more understanding from the people on both sides of that border.

   From what I have read, middle class people would not be moving out of California unless they had too. They move because they can’t afford to support themseleves and their families on their salaries. They are forced out of their homes. Then they meet prejudice just about everywhere they go.

   I have sorta “studied” a similiar thing here at the Wisconsin/Illiois border.

   But on our side its harder to define, as I believe its many times more expensive to live in Wisconsin (so I think the whole property thing is more a shield for…we have never liked you but now we have a reason to say we dont like you)

   If anyone wants a good laugh though, study up on the name “Jack “Rambo” Pickens”

   It should lighten up the whole my state is better than your state, thing.

   I have a lot of different feelings on the whole thing, as I have dealt with people from Wisconisin judging me before ever knowing me, and without ever spending any amount of time in Illionois — from otherwise reasonable people its….really frustrating behavior to witness.

   The funny part is, they think we are judging them and its my belief that is how it all starts. One of my favorite things to tell my Wisconsin friends is that “we are too busy thinking about ourselves to spend any time worrying about them” then they all laugh and say yeah thats not suprising. As they think we are all selfish and arrogant, oh and rich too (major misconception). But the truth is, as Maggie also noted earlier…we dont really think about Wisconsin people…but people in Wiscosin have not so nice nicknames for us, and the sentiment seems to go pretty deep for some people (the illinois hating) and unfortunatley I do think alot of people just learn it just like any other form of racism, as benign as it may seem.

   It still makes the people doing the judging sound just as uneducated as people who discriminate based on color or gender.
9. Fools Gold,

   Not everyone who goes through there is heading to the coast. That’s why I previously suggested, “Not a through Route – turn around and use FS-23” or some variation of that.
10. I guess what is really coming to mind…more than what the sign says (although equally important) is the shape of the sign and the placement. In order to convey “wrong way” without actually saying it …I think two medium size, reflective signs on either side of the road (the logging road, so its obvious its for that road and not the other road) in the shape of a diamond….though I guess the shape doesn’t matter as much. I think that placement (parallel to each other on either side of the road), and the two identical signs (that say the same thing) really speaks to the driver — kinda like a gate but there doesn’t have to be a gate.

    I know my description of this is like trying to tell someone how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with words and no pictures. I know we have all seen this kind of signage but trying to describe it with words is feeling very awkward. I dont think it would be disruptive to the forest…just would place people at that intersection on alert.

    I dont know if something like that is going too far from the custom but I am certain I have seen it in similiar places and it has kept me from making a wrong turn!
11. Mapper,

    Actually I think you are doing an excellent job of communicating.

    The “Negative Signing” on the intersection road would help so much – BIG and on both sides of the road with reflectors – as close to the road as allowable to really catch peoples attention but still allow access.

    Perhaps something like NOT A THROUGH ROUTE or DEAD END (though technically that’s not true) or just COAST in a red circle with the line drawn through it (as in NO COAST). Perhaps a NO COAST simple sign on all spur intersections off the route from Galice to Agness.

    A route marker on FS23 would also be a great addition. For example in the photos http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?action=view&current=InfoSign2.jpg
    the “Follow Me” sign or something like it could be posted at regular interals on the ‘correct’ road at all the spur intersections.
12. Mapper, Angela, et. al., something like this:
    
    perhaps 1/4 mile past the famous fork? And again 1/2 mile past? And again 1 mile past?
13. Rodney – YES – EXACTLY like that!

    I LOVE this blog – you wish for something (like a picture to describe the words) and Presto – There it is:)

    Rodney, I’m assuming these signs would contain reflective paint – true?
14. Sure, reflective paint, or whatever the sign standard is. I’m just a make-believe sign guy, not a real-life sign guy.
15. Dead Ends – The only problem I would see with posting that a road is a dead end when it actually isn’t is that at some point, someone else could run into trouble by making decisions based on the thought that a road doesn’t go somewhere even when it actually does – can you imagine someone getting stuck trying to get turned back around at a supposed “dead end” when in fact they may have been able to have continued forward (or some such scenario)? Truth is probably best.

    That said, I agree 110% that there needs to be great clarity which roads are intended when headed to the coast and which ones are not. Spray painting on the roads (that get covered in snow) is clearly a cry for help and shows that people sometimes think that it’s the way to the coast. They need to know that it’s not.
16. Rodney that’s an impressive sign concept! I’m also posting your comment and sign picture over in the “suggestions” area:
    https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
17. Thanks Angela!

    Rodney, Yes that is what I was thinking, thank you!
18. Joe, you might want to take a copy of that photo and host it elsewhere. I don’t *plan* to do anything with my photobucket account, but you never know.
19. Rodney, those look great!
20. Angela, dfk, I think we should get gold stars for the day too, while Rodney basks in the limelight of going to the suggestions page club.
21. mapper? mapper? Sounds familiar but I can’t place it. Probably one of the little people along the way to stardom.

    Come on, it was your vision. I’m just the lowly photochopper. And it was a quick and dirty hack-job at that. Gold stars all around.
22. 8)

    Stay true to yourself Rodney! Fame can really get to some people!
23. Rodney,

    Not exactly what I was thinking, but these are as good or better than my idea.

    I also want a BGS (Big Green Sign) like on Interstates showing the split with one side labeled FS-23 – Coast / Agness and the other side labeled something like “Local road only – No Thru Route”
24. 12/Rodney G – Great signs !!…I think 3 times might be overkill, though, especially if they were placed on both sides like that. 2 placements should be more than adequate.

    Portland is snowbound !!!
25. Paul

    Snowbound! Snowday with the kids??
26. While looking at the topographic maps for this area (see the link to the lookout on page 8), I noticed that the junction area where FS23 starts is called Camp Howard. It is at the head of Howard Creek. I wonder if any locals use that term, or if it is just a historical relic.

    It is unclear what kind of sign improvements would have made a difference in the Kim case.

    Kati is quoted as saying that they took the side road to get to lower levels (below the snow), and that they did not know where it went. And for some reason, James had deduced, while stranded, that they were a few miles from Galice.

    If these quotes are accurate, then warnings that the BLM 34-8-36 after Camp Howard did not lead to the coast might not have made any difference. It did lead them to lower altitudes (2000 ft), but the snow followed them. They didn’t take it because they thought it was the through route to Agness.

    Should the deteriorating quality of the BLM road given them ample warning that it was not a through route? It turns to gravel at some point. On forest service and county roads (in Washington) it is common to see ‘end of pavement’ signs. I also assume the BLM road lacks signs indicating distance to Gold Beach and other coast route indicators that are evident in signs prior to Camp Howard. I also suspect that FS23 continues to have distance signs, at least at the summit where FS 2308 branches off.

    Still, it would be good to have some sort of warning signs after the junction. My nomination is ‘Not a through road’, or ‘No outlet’. These are used in residential areas with only one entrance/outlet.

    Another possibility is that they drove through the Camp Howard junction without noticing the FS23 turn off, and that Kati’s comments apply to some junction further down BLM 34-8-36. As I noted earlier there are several Y junctions beyond Camp Howard, and I can’t tell from Goggle Earth whether ’36 is the obvious choice in all of those.

    The Black Bar Lodge caretaker has talked about redirecting lost tourists. The hand writing on the pavement is also an indication of local efforts to clear up some confusion. But I have not seen mention of other SAR missions involving this maze. In the other deaths that I’ve read about (e.g. Finley, Baker), the drivers were crossing from west to east, and had not entered this maze. I’m sure Josephine Co. SAR will have record of any such missions.

    If Kims’ problem was that they missed signs, either due to snow or inattention, then some sort of ‘soft’ barrier might have helped more than increased signs. I read that BLM is considering a self closing (as opposed to locking) gate. A few highway divider barriers could also be placed at the junction, directing through traffic onto FS23, while still allowing a conscious turn onto BLM 34. Many suburban Y junctions have been turned into Ts with curbs and barriers.

    paulj
27. paulj wrote:
    “It is unclear what kind of sign improvements would have made a difference in the Kim case.

    Kati is quoted as saying that they took the side road to get to lower levels (below the snow), and that they did not know where it went. And for some reason, James had deduced, while stranded, that they were a few miles from Galice.

    If these quotes are accurate, then warnings that the BLM 34-8-36 after Camp Howard did not lead to the coast might not have made any difference. It did lead them to lower altitudes (2000 ft), but the snow followed them. They didn’t take it because they thought it was the through route to Agnes”

    I think the suggestions would make people think that maybe this isn’t the best way to a lower elevation. “No Outlet” should (in an ideal world) be enough warning.
28. This is off topic, but when Paul mentioned for me to check out Channel 8 here in Portland, they showed this video:

    http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=114046&catId=131

    So, this is Portland today and why I’m enjoying a safe snow day.
29. I took a snow day yesterday like Tara (though everyone else around here went to work…I’m just able to do stuff like that!) but today it took me about an hour to scrape and melt the ice off my car…not kidding!
30. We are sledding and having snowball fights and making snow angels and all that good stuff that kids under 10 thrive on. Love that KGW video, cool post Maggie…bumper cars !!!
31. Totally off topic, but as is slow here & looked over under computers on Joe’s home page and didn’t see good location to ask, I just need ONE computer question answered.
    How long can you have a cable for a LCD montior without degradation in quality? I only want to run one 5-8 ft. for probably a 19in. screen.
32. Frances -#31: 5-8 inch should be fine. I’ve gone as long as 75 foot (church projection) without noticeable degradation. A 5-8 footer should be fine.
33. 32 – oops that’s feet not inch
34. ok well here I am back at good ole’ Joe Duck, we got a snow storm this afternoon took me 2 and half hours to drive what ususally takes me 30 minutes GEESH!!!
35. Maggie, that video is amazing – I’m glad you are safe at home.

    Paul sounds like the perfect way to spend a snowday!
36. RRR-78

    Are you located out of town? It took me 50 minutes for the tip from TRCH to GPHS. I am not certain how many Dutch Bros I may have passed. It wasn’t on the schedule.
37. I went from Medford to Grants Pass…….It stunk!!!! New Hope is one sheet of ICE!!!
38. RRR and Calm Guy – Glad you made it safely, definitely sounds like a time to stay inside and off the roads if at all possible – unless of course you can strap on the ice skates 🙂
39. RRR glad you made it to Grants Pass – that must have been something out there with all this snow. My kids are happy though!
40. 38-39 Thanks me too!!!
41. Maggie,

    Thanks for posting that KGW piece. I have seen things in Vancouver BC too.
42. That was a cool peice maggie- I went up to Vancouver WA the last time you all got hit with an ice storm…I think it was 2 years ago maybe now….Maybe even three now…wow time flies!
43. uggg.. the ice here is bad. our main highway had a wreck at every overpass. The black ice is crazy.
44. Oh I am not looking forward to tomorrow…..not a whole lot has melted but that, that did is going to stink tomorrow, but my guess is that snow will be around for a bit with this cold front we seem to be stuck in
45. Glad you guys are all ok! 😀 Definitely time to not drive if you don’t have to, the time my truck went so out of control, I was trying to rush back to work after the holidays because I had been stranded by that ice storm, and they kept pressuring me – you have to come in, you’re supposed to be here, etc. (it was a restaurant/bakery). I rushed to try to get there, and my truck went totally out of control on that bridge. Luckily I was okay, but when I got there I told my boss what had happened, and she said “I lost a friend that way.” And that’s when I decided no job is worth my life. If I have to choose, I’ll lose a job. I won’t drive on ice. Anyway, I hope none of you have to make such a decision, but mostly I hope you all stay safe.
46. (12) Rodney…nice job on those signs! You didn’t hurt any trees or displace any owls during your simulation of the new sign ideas? 🙂
47. I haven’t had as much time in general! (The rest of my life has caught up with me). But I wrote this earlier:

    *Yes, Portland is snowbound today!* My dog, Honey, is big but wimpy, and does not like snow, so I had to take a beautiful winter wonderland walk by myself. (We don’t usually get much snow down here in the valley, often none at all in the winter, and if we do, it doesn’t usually stay long, so it’s special!)

    Anyway, I was up walking on Mt.Tabor, and I had an experience at one point towards the end of my walk
    where I started heading one way, and then I realized
    that I might be going out of my way farther than I
    wanted to, and at that moment I thought something like, “Well, it’s too late now – I don’t want to
    backtrack, I might as well keep going forward this
    way.” And I realized how common that kind of thought process is, and I stopped in my tracks and thought of
    this story.

    Even if you realize you’re not necessarily going the way you want, but you still think you can get there if you keep going forward, there’s a tendency to not want to backtrack. There’s something about backtracking that makes you feel like you’ve just wasted all the time and effort you put into getting yourself as far forward as you have.
    It makes all that time and effort seem worthless, and I think we have a built in tendency to not want to have our invested time and effort be worthless. And there seems to be a ratio too: the more tired you are, and the more effort you have put in, the less you want to have all that effort be worthless. When you are tired your energy and therefore your effort, become even more precious in worth. One of the main reasons I didn’t want to backtrack today, is because I was starting to feel tired.

    I think we mostly only backtrack if it is simple and easy to do so, or when we think we have no option forward.

    I have a feeling this tendency may have played a role when they were driving that first night, in why they even went so far down BLM 34-8-36, and when James went for help.

    I think this tendency has come up before, but it just
    struck me today, when I experienced it.

    And it’s a very good reason why BLM 34-8-36 should have
    signs indicating that it’s a “No Coast Thru Route”, etc.
    I don’t know how John James directs traffic to his lodge, but I think it could be done in a way that wouldn’t interfere.

    Now, I have to go again!
48. Sorry, I had written that earlier, and it didn’t cut and paste well! 😀
49. 47/John James’ clients either raft to his lodge or they hike down the Rogue River trail and are ferried across. The road to his lodge is so bad as to not be a practical way to get people there…that and there are PLENTY of people on the river who like the lodge experience. His is one of several lodges that are available throughout the wild section.
50. 49- Thanks Paul! I was wondering about that!
51. On the long Mail Tribune thread, a poster familiar with the area (Rogue Fly) mentioned two roads in the BLM maze by name, Way Out Saddle Rd, and County Line Rd. I don’t find these names on any map, but they may be familiar to locals.

    Does anyone know which BLM road numbers these are?

    paulj
52. I do believe that the road the Kim’s were found on 34-8-36 is AKA County Line Rd.
53. Just found this article tonight while checking out weather…. I am seeing a small pattern for the sheriff’s dept…..

    Step One- Have a Search with High Media Coverage

    Step Two- Have a Bad or Disapointing Outcome

    Step Three-Get an nice feel good article about the person “in charge”

    http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1168921515110330.xml?oregonian?lcfp&coll=7&thispage=1

    All I have to say after Step three is watch out for the Oregonian…..First they gave Anderson a GREAT article and it just went downhill from there!
54. anderson is no Joe Wampler
55. 47,49/At one time there might have been (or maybe still is?) a functioning airstrip at BBL, as evidenced by an old photo of an early plane landed there. Hard to believe.
56. Only slightly familiar with the Mt. Hood search, but from waht I read, the search was organized, there was someone in control, they knew what their resources were and utilized them.
57. Lisa,,,,
    You already made a decision to place the job first and your personal safety second. The dice just rolled in your favor, thats all. This time!

    Signage,,,
    Yes, the attempt to get below the ill-defined ‘snowline’ might have made additional signage or more-informative signage useless. However it is a cheap and easy solution and it atleast provides more information. I think its worth it. Certainly if someone went out and chalked or painted the roadway, it shows there is some confusion at that point. Maybe a snow storm will drive passersby to take the “wrong” option if the road appears inviting even if its not the coastal route.
58. It really is difficult to compare the progression of the Mt. Hood search with the Kim Search – especially from the organizational perspective.

    The Kim search originally involved Three States – Narrowed down to Oregon – Narrowed down to a liklihood of Four Counties (and thus Four County Government structures); which was Narrowed down to 1 likely County. In addition the Kim’s were lost for Four plus days before a Missing Persons report was filed. Each phase of narrowing down would entail different government organizations and different people in charge and sadly time.

    The Mt Hood Search started with Much smaller area of concentration with and a single entity in charge from beginning to end. Authorities were notified I believe within a day of the need for the search.

    I suspect the OSSA report will have some “Tipping Points” that occurred during the Kim search – it seems to me the greatest of those is how unfortunate that the Kims were not reported missing by Monday, or even Tuesday morning rather than Wednesday evening.
59. Lisa,

    Yeah I completley understand that instinct to just keep going, wether driving or hiking. This summer we had some terribly hot days. But I still liked getting out to walk. I live near quite a few nice state parks and natural areas (well you CAN get lost here in Illinois on foot, or pass out if you go to far from heat exhaustion or cold and someone will find you too late or eventually). Anyway, all that said, I have a favorite path on those days that is a 3 mile circle. I know its a circle and I know if I keep going it will end, and then my mind won’t play tricks on me! Its nice to know where those circular path’s are when you want to get out for a day hike on a hot or cold day.

    Anyway, yeah, I think the cost benefit of getting good sings at the interesection in question far outweighs any negatives. Ive heard enough accounts of people almost getting in trouble at that spot, and have seen the pictures of how easy it would be to go the wrong way….and then there is the spray paint. A better case for some new, relativley cheap signs has never been presented in my opinion. What more proof do you need? It may be that the Kim’s went down that road knowing it was a dead end….that is not a good enough reason to not put a better sign there.

    I think, if some good signs do not get put up there, it will end up gated. And I dont think many people really want that. At least try the signs first.
60. Reported Missing,,,
    Yes. I’m sure it would be best to get the search started early or atleast get the report in and let the situation be assessed and a search contemplated, if not actually undertaken. (In the David Boone-Foothill Ranch search, there was a delay before a search was initiated after the Mising Persons report was filed).

    Unfortunately, I think it was mainly telephonic and email communication lapses that was a source of growing discontent. Fortunately, no one files a missing persons report just because they don’t get an email from someone they might normally get one from.

    Missing a specific appointment is always more significant.

    However once the report was made and the search started and the area started getting progressively smaller as the various agencies obtained information regarding: relatives visited, cell phone and credit card use, stated destinations, etc., the responsibility for the search devolved upon different personnel with different resources and experience levels.

    I don’t know if tardy initiation of a missing persons report in California really played much of a role in determining flight paths of search helicopters or snow melt rates in Oregon.

    It is true that the lodge in Gold Beach had been asked to leave the key out for their late arrival but the guests never arrived and there had been a snow storm on the approach road over the mountain. Should the lodge manager have been concerned?
61. 60.
    This is definately hind sight, but I really think if I had gotten a call that said they would definately be there, just late, and I knew of the troubles of the route that leads pretty much to our door step, I wouldve called the police when the kims didnt show. What would it hurt to just leave a “concerned tip” call? If it turned out to be nothing, so be it. great. but if that call had come in and was logged somehow in perhaps a database and then the subsequent calls start coming in… perhaps the kim name would’ve gotten a “hit”? that wouldve narrowed the search must faster.
62. paulj 34-8-36 is referred to as the “Galice Access Rd.,” the road that the Kim’s ended up on (intersection with 34-8-36) is the “County Line Road,” I believe. I believe that the 33-9-21.
63. JoCo, hope OSSA report comes out today for your sake! Luck to you and RRR.
64. 57- Fools Gold

    I made/felt forced into that “decision” the first time, but that’s how I learned from it, and I won’t do it again. It wasn’t a full fledged conscious decision between my job and my life the first time. My instinct was not to drive, but authorities said the highway had been salted and was safe. I thought/hoped that was true and it would be okay.

    But now I have been in two, “so close to fatal or incredibly seriously injured if other cars had been present events”. I know the dangers too well, and I will not drive on ice if I have a choice. (The first was on a two-lane road where my father was driving and we went into the oncoming lane and spun around three times before we bounced off an embankment – black ice.)

    It’s like flying without a guarantee you’ll be able to steer properly if you get in slippery clouds.
65. Dee – I am fairly certain that the report WILL NOT be released today. More like Friday. Sorry. It is only an indication that they are clearing more details. The report will be better due to the delays, I am sure of that.
66. And having other planes around you, flying in slippery clouds at the same time too, in many cases…
67. JoCoSAR – Thanks for the update on the report. We really do appreciate you keeping us updated!
68. 64/66 addition

    Just to be clear – I know there’s no such thing as “slippery” clouds, but sometimes people seem to think that because they have four wheels on the ground, they are “grounded” and ice can too easily make that, not true.

    Also, as most of you probably know, plane wings can’t fly or steer properly with too much ice on them.
69. Tara, 60-61, Innkeeper’s Concern,,,

    Yes. I do admit that this is indeed ‘hindsight’. I am sure a great many people fail to show up for a hotel reservation.

    You and I each have different views on a guests non-arrival though under certain circumstances:

    A phone call re-confirming the reservation and
    specifically requesting key be left out for late arrival and
    a inn that is located in a somewhat remote area and
    a snowstorm in the area and
    (perhaps) a snow storm that was known to have affected the specific route that hotel guest would have been taking.

    Call the cops??? No.
    Innkeeper might have called some sort of ‘contact’ information. Did the inn have anything other than the cell phone number? Did that inn keeper have the phone number or email address of the housekeeper in San Francisco?
70. 58/Angela: All very valid points, in addition, the resources, equipment & # of volunteers that Hood River and Portland can bring to the table runs circles around what Josephine County has at their disposal. It is unfair to compare the two for many reasons, but their resources are hugely different…can’t remember where I saw it, but at one point Sara R put up a list of their equipment and some of it was so old it should be on Antiques Roadshow.
71. Everyone all thawed out this morning…….
72. Paul – LOL Maybe Josephine County could make enough on the Antigues Roadshow to get some sorely needed new equipment. 😆
73. Guest non-arrival/Innkeeper Concern

    I’m reminded of the military harbor master who failed to report the non-arrival in wartime of the USS Indianapolis.

    I think however that police departments would be overwhelmed with missing person reports if innkeepers routinely contacted police over a guest’s non-arrival.

    It is clear that a great many things vary geographically: scenery, school funding, public defenders, ambulance services, fire department and police response times, training and education levels of police, road maintenance, etc. Some counties are rich; some are poor. Some adjustments are made in imposed burdens on county treasuries. Rural areas often have Church Bake Sales to raise funds for a brush-fire truck or a mobile SAR command post. Urban areas dip into tax funds and buy desired equipment outright. Cell phone companies build towers in urban areas and often sell off their towers in rural areas rather than build more. Local residents get to vote on local funding issues; tourists do not.
74. RRR – I hope everyone stayed safe in the dangerous ice conditions!

    This weather is Crazy. Personally I’m a bit disappointed because I’m headed out to Texas tomorrow for a workshop. When I scheduled this last summer I thought it would be a great opportunity to get some sun in the middle of our typically inverted winter 😥
75. 70- I think another reason there is a difference is because Mt. Hood has encountered challenging, or as Barnadad calls them “Big Game”, searches often, so they are more prepared by experience in general. It sounds like JoCo had never really had a “Big Game” search before, so they were less accustomed to even making use of what additional resources might be available to them.

    Even from the press conferences and in very difficult situations, it felt that Joe Wampler was thoroughly confident they were doing everything they could. But for
    whatever reasons, that confidence that everything that could be done was being done, did not seem to be there
    for the Kim case. They were trying, but it seemed more chaotic, and unsure.
76. 57/58/76 Hmm. Don’t know why posts didn’t originally apppear, even after multiple refresh, and then re-appear later…
77. You have to hear this with Arnold Schwarzenegger’s voice and accent:

    “The state’s resources will make you bigger and more powerful than ever before, JoCoSAR…”

    And then his smiles as he pats you all on the back…

    (We can borrow him for the fun of this image because
    you know it’s something he might say – as movie actor or
    Governor of a neighboring state with relations to this case. He would probably even say it without relations to this case!)
78. Lisa – do you happen to have his cell phone number so that I can give him a call next time?? 🙂
79. Ah yes, it’s 1-Ask-(#)1Ar-nold!

    (he, he , he… as he would say)

    Disclaimer: No it’s not! But I bet SAR work would interest him too.
80. Snow day here in Talent. We’ve got a whopping 2 inches which throws everybody into driving panic here.
81. [Note – this comment was posted last night but went into moderation – Joe Duck]

    55/Here is URL for that photo showing pilot and guests alongside single-engine plane, titled “Black Bar Lodge on Rogue River.” I would hazard a guess that this could be from 1955-60, from the style of plane and pilot’s attire.

    http://www.wooldridgeboats.com/photos/History/pages/History25_jpg_jpg.htm

    I first saw this after JD’s early suggestion on Dec. 5th during the search, that BBL area should be checked.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42%C2%B042%276.51%22N+123%C2%B048%2717.98%22W&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=42.701968,-123.804696&spn=0.003406,0.010815&t=k&om=1&iwloc=addr

    The airstrip must have been the grassy field in front of the Lodge, since the riverfront/gravel bar seems rough and obstructed. The photo looks like it may have been taken at the SW end of this field. A pilot would need skill (and maybe a strong headwind and tailhook.)
82. I have a vugue memory of some article interviewing someone from the Gold Beach lodge. They said they do not recommend Bear Camp Rd to their guests. While some undoubtedly do arrive by the ‘back door’, most must come by way of US101 and the 6 mile drive east from Gold Beach.

    Even after the alarm was raised, the most logical route from Roseburg to Gold Beach (OR 42, US101) was the subject of considerable searching – by highway patrol, Coos Co, and Carson Helicopters.

    I don’t think snow on the Bear Camp ridge would have been visible to people at the lodge. If they knew about the snow it would have been from people who tried to cross from the Agness side and failed. It sounds as though the Cougar Lane store in Agness is the place to go to get the latest information on conditions over Bear Camp.

    paulj
83. Yes, here too! Because I live near Mt.Tabor, people park here and they’re even getting stuck in their parking spots. It’s very unusual here. We have a year round farmer’s market that I usually go to on Wednesdays – but I doubt any of the farmers are coming in…
84. 81- That’s a really interesting picture.
85. Are there any signs along the western part of BLM 34-8-36 that use the name Galice Access or Galice Ck? The eastern part climbs up Galice Ck, but using the name for the western part (byond the FS 23 junction) could be confusing.

    Even using the same BLM number for the two parts is a potential source of confusion. Someone could (not necessarily Kims) take BLM 34-8-36 west into the Big Windy drainage thinking that they were taking it east toward Galice Creek and Galice community.

    paulj
86. Allen, Black Bar Lodge is actually here:
    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42.656995,-123.733767&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=42.656995,-123.733767&spn=0.002726,0.006748&t=k&om=1

    Not where you have your map link pointed, right?
87. I do find internet references to airstrips at Zane Gray’s Cabin, and also at Paradise Lodge. I believe Zane Gray’s is where Allen’s link points.

    Here is a pretty obvious strip (and airplane) that is near Paradise Lodge:
    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=42.694935,-123.9396&ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=42.694927,-123.9396&spn=0.002724,0.006748&t=k&om=1
    though it looks like there is a strip across the river to the north as well, which I believe is where Paradise Lodge actually is.
88. Rodney – I think Allen’s not here now – he’d posted those earlier but they went into moderation and I just “released” the comments.

    You are right that Allen’s map does not point to Black Bar and you’ve got the right spot on your map. A good way to orient yourself with maps is to find the 180 degree “Horseshoe Bend” in the Rogue and then look south of that to where the river makes a sharp turn. Just to the east of this, upstream, is Black Bar lodge and then another 1/2 mile or so upriver is Big Windy Creek where James died.
89. Not that it matters, but it looks like my link in comment #87 points to the airstrip for Half Moon Bar Lodge, and there is indeed a different airstrip across the river at Paradise Lodge (in addition to the airstrip in Allen’s link at Zane Gray’s cabin).
90. Right Rodney – here’s a map of the wild section. The building near your link is probably Half Moon Bar lodge which is just downriver and south on opposite side from Paradise Lodge:
    https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/
91. These Rogue River views are really making me want to take a raft trip next summer. The wild section trip on the Rogue, where you stay in lodges or camp along the banks, is really a great 2-4 day adventure.
92. Thanks Joe. I was looking back and forth between that map and the aerial to figure out what was what.

    That plane photo is cool. It looks like there is room at Black Bar Lodge for an airstrip, so maybe there was one there at one time, if there isn’t still.
93. Rodney I was wondering about that plane also. I was up at Paradise lodge about 4 years ago and the airstrip was still there but I didn’t realize each lodge had their own. It looks like maybe they do. Something to ask John James next time he’s here at the blog – he owns Black Bar Lodge.
94. John James, the CNN show made it look like there is a gate at the top of the access road to your lodge. Is this true? Why why why didn’t James walk down that access road when he passed that gate? He probably passed that access road before Noon, assuming he started in that direction from the car. So sad. One of the questions we’ll never have answered.
95. Yep Joe, if anybody knows whether you can land a plane there today, it would be John. And if there isn’t a functional strip now, he’d be a good bet to know if there ever was.

    Also Joe, I know what you mean about looking at these aerials and pictures and wanting to take a rafting trip.
96. 94/Rodney G: I believe the gate is purposely unmarked to avoid vandals and thievery. It would have had no more draw to him than a half dozen other junctions they passed on their journey. Remember guests arrive by boat, not by car.
97. Paul, I know what you’re saying, but: 1) There is a gate, which would seem inviting (unless of course there are gates at every junction to every side BLM road), and 2) He might have known where the river was from where he was, and that access road appears to go downhill (almost immediately) and toward the river.

    Oh, when I say “Why didn’t he?”, I’m not saying he *should* have, I’m just saying I wish he *would* have.
98. Hi all –

    Here are some quick updates on comments/questions.

    Blame. I have seen a lot about blame. About blame for James and Kati, about blame for SAR, about blame for this and that. As a close friend of Kati and James, I am not looking for anyone to blame. I know within the group of friends who are close to myself and Kati, there is an acceptance that a lot of mistakes were made, by *everyone* involved, which includes James and Kati and the SAR. Mistakes are human, and what we hope for is that people are able to learn from the mistakes, move on and help provide a better outcome next time someone finds themselves in this situation. Blame serves no purpose in and of itself, for me it is quite useless, the important outcomes for all are to learn, to strive to improve and become better at what we do. That said if someone was negligent or incompetent at their job – they shouldn’t be in that position. I have not had time to read much of anything, not sure I care to either, however I do want to make sure important jobs in any state SAR infrastructures have competent and knowledgeable people in them. The people I personally had minor interactions with all seemed competent and sincere to me. I personally do not have enough information to make any judgements, and I doubt most people in the public do. I hope that internally the state/county agencies will take whatever actions they need to improve their agencies and departments. There is always room for improvement.

    My role. Quick background technically is that I’m the Director of Operations at a tech company (infocentricity) and previously held the same position at Topica (free email list hoster turned spammer over time after dot.com failing). In the Topica job I was on call often and had to deal with stressful and long days sometimes. I also am co-founder of an ISP. Needless to say I was well positioned to host/create a website for this emergency in our lives and to help coordinate volunteers. I host the websites for Kati and James businesses.

    The role of the website and our communications center. The website did generate several tips and leads within the first few days. We received over 11,000 personal emails, and probably 100 mesgs into the search email that was listed before we found Kati and the girls. In my kitchen, we setup a station to manage the site, track our volunteers on the ground, and help facilitate communication between our various volunteers/family/friends. We were never in communication with Oregon officials as we did not receive that mandate from the family members to be used in that role. Early on we wanted to make sure we did not hinder the family and the authorities in any way – and tried to only do anything more than flyering/tip gathering when asked. Even if we wanted to get in touch with the authorities it was my feeling we couldn’t get very far remotely. We had volunteers on the ground who were getting us some great reports – but those worked best face to face. Throughout we tracked about 20 volunteers (maybe as many as 10 cars) on the ground, providing them with corridors and areas to flyer and canvass for tips. Those were focused on major highway corridors between Roseburg and Gold Beach. We helped to double check tips that family and friends asked about, and our volunteers also generated tips to follow up on (I don’t think however any of them panned out). At my house we used Google Earth extensively to map and follow volunteers. We also correlated cell phone tower maps and added them into our main working map. A friend of ours from Google worked at our house every day – and the Google Earth team extended an offer to help us in any way they could (their software is so awesome that we really didn’t need much more!).

    One Complaint. I do have one story to relay about a complaint I personally had with the setup of the SAR – which is completely logistical in nature. When we got what seemed like it might be a breakthough tip if it panned out, I tried to call the Oregon Tip Line from Oakland. Didn’t work, the 800 number was setup only to work in Oregon. I called a close friend and volunteer in Eugene and asked him to call the 800 line and then ask for a direct line. They told him they couldn’t give it to him. I called the Missing Persons hotline for SFPD, listed on the original flyer – NO ANSWER and NO ANSWERING MACHINE??? on a missing persons phone line? Flabbergasted by this time. I called the SFPD Operations Line. Answered right away and someone helpful who gave me the number and mentioned, ‘yeah, the 800 line didn’t work for them either’. Minor things like this incident could be catastrophic if someone who really had a tip gave up and didn’t call back. This kind of scenario is what needs to be fixed. The SAR people on the ground risking their lives need to know that comments like these aren’t aimed at them in any way – I want to know these tips are getting in so that the SAR aren’t unnecessarily looking in the wrong place if something comes in.

    I do have a lot more to say. =) So I’ll try to get it out over time.
99. 88/90 RodneyG and Joe: Yep, right river, wrong lodge! But I still assume that the plane photo was correctly at BBL.

    I had bookmarked the gravel bar aerial back on Dec. 5th from the following page, when we speculated about the Lodges, not knowing yet the significance of BBL v. Half Moon Lodge.

    “James Kim search continues. Tuesday 11:00 pm update, Comment #5 by zcu.”

    And I should have noticed that RodneyG’s aerial shows the low stone wall dividing the BBL field/lawn, as seen in this closer land photo:

    http://www-nlp.stanford.edu/~wcmac/Rogue/Rogue-Pages/Image34.html

    **Just learned from Joe to include only ONE URL in post to avoid moderation (and 3 duplicates.)
100. Scott very excellent stuff. You were handling even more information than I was aware of.

     Also totally agree that blame should not be the focus – rather solutions for the Bear Camp area (e.g. signs or maps or ?) and more broadly and importantly how to use technology in the future to enhance SAR.

     It seems to me a key issue is whether to try to *coordinate* the friends/online effort with the conventional SAR. Sounds like that was not feasible in this case and I’m wondering if in the future that would be desirable.

     Another item where I think improvements would be easy is to shift the emphasis of the tips and comments and volunteering phone messaging systems to online systems. Most callers could also be “emailing” the info, and this means it can be go to *everybody* on the case or even to public viewing places in some cases, OR be screened into a daily digest or whatever. Phones are a HUGE bottleneck as you found here and there is no need for that.
101. The Portland Missing Persons report gives some idea of how they attempted to collect and track information.

     State patrol in southern Oregon was supposed to run the tip line.

     While Portland continued to get tips and information, he tried to keep San Francisco Missing Persons informed. In fact, he seemed to view San Francisco as the agency ultimately in charge, or at least wanted them to be the centralized repository of information.

     paulj
102. 100 / Joe: “in the future…be desirable.” Perhaps; with the right group, certainly, but I think the one challenge may be getting buy-in / acceptance from SAR itself. Clearly Scott’s group was making serious headway, but from one state to the next, and one group to the next, you could have enormous variations in the quality of those efforts. There may need to be some sort of process in place so that SAR will know that the efforts of a given group are credible or you run the risk that good information will be discarded as it is coming from “amateurs” and is thus deemed unreliable or uncertain.

     JoCoSar and RRR would have a far more accurate idea if my concerns above are misplaced or not, and – if valid – what might be reasonable ways to insure information from such groups gets utilized.
103. Scott Windels (#98), I wanted to send you a personal e-mail but you didn’t provide any contact information. So posting here is the only way to answer your comment about “blame.” Here is the response:

     tinyurl.com/293s6x
104. 98- Thanks Scott! That is so interesting to hear about – I had no idea your “operations” were so sophisticated. I’m so glad you are posting about them here, and I look forward to hearing more.
105. Response to Charles Wilson. I don’t plan on continuing a public discussion about the topic of blame more than this post.

     I do believe in people holding themselves responsible for their actions. If someone was negligent enough in their job to warrant it – they should be fired by their agency or retrained for their job (in analogy to your posting, I tried to help vote GW out of office, but not enough others thought he was being negligent in his duties as I do).

     There isn’t one person or one agency to blame solely, nor is their one person or agency to praise completely. Like so many things in life, it is a terribly complicated set of causes and actions, and there is a balance of both blame/responsibility/praise for everyone involved.

     It is all too easy to be an armchair quarterback as so many folks here on the Internets have shown.

     Just as a personal example of my perspective on blame, I’ll admit that when I read that SarahR had been out driving near the BCR area early in the SAR I was initially very pissed. IMHO, if you are a coordinator, that means you don’t leave home base. Within 24 hours of my finding out my friends were missing I made the decision to stay put at my house and coordinate volunteers – I knew that my role would be better served there (even though a nagging thing inside just wanted to get in the car and drive roads in OR). While I could place the same assumptions on other people in Oregon I just don’t know the details or the protocols. Why was SarahR not stationed at the HQ tracking her volunteers? Is this normal protocal for a SAR coordinator? Who trained her? Who hired her? Does JoCo have enough money dedicated to SAR/EM? If not, why not? I could go on and on and on with the questions and the what if’s…and it wouldn’t help me come any closer to initial closure on this issue as a friend of James, it doesn’t help to bring him back. My point is that it doesn’t do me any good to stand around and point a finger (if nothing is improved by that). If I personally could review the situation and take action to improve the JoCo SAR/EM system – then yes it would be my job to do that, I pray that people in that situation are doing a good job improving things as we sit around postulating our theories on the Internet. It’s not my place, nor do I have the information or knowledge to place some blame on SarahR for not doing her job, although let me tell you it would be easy for me to do that. But that’s not my job, and I don’t have direct influence to change that situation, so I’m going to choose to use my time to try and help others who might end up in situations similar to mine or the Kim family.

     My junior high school English teacher, Mrs. Drew, told us once, never to assume. It will make an ASS out of U and ME. So simple, and something I’ve always tried keep that in mind. In your response to me you are blaming the Kims and blaming SarahR. It’s your right to do that, but I can guarantee you, that you are making your judgments based on certain assumptions, and that those aren’t all correct. Certainly there are bits of blame here and there, I could probably come up with about 50 people to blame in this situation. Blame should be applied where mistakes were made and then efforts should be taken to fix those so they don’t happen again (people can place some blame on James all they want but he’s not going to be coming back to fix or improve on his mistakes – so you might as well move on to something you can influence, like stocking your car or learning about survival skills).

     I live in Oakland, and just this week there was a fire at the Chevron or some oil co. plant. For the umpteenth time in many years, the phone tree that is supposed to notify residents to ‘shelter-in-place’ didn’t work. So of course again the oil company and the county are being blamed. So yeah blame them – but that’s not the part of the equation I’m interested in – I want to know it’s fixed, it obviously hasn’t been fixed now for several years. So what good has the blame done? The blame has to be followed up by someone stepping up and taking responsibility to fix things.
106. Scott,

     I think your feelings are very similiar to most of us here. Thanks.

     Anyway, my Junior high english teacher said the EXACT same thing!!!!! I wonder if they went to college together!! Or if that is somewhere in the 8th grade english teacher handbook.

     🙂
107. 105/Scott: The blame game relies on assumptions and, to some degree, SUBjective judgements about various facts, many of which at this point seem incomplete. There are only two items I think clearly need addressing, even in advance of the Sheriffs report, and they are signage and maps.
     Some have said the signs and maps are adequate, many more have said they are not. Setting aside for one moment the Kim’s experience, the sheer number of incidents involving THIS road and THIS route argue forcefully that there is a problem with both.
108. Scott, I never wanted to make it a public discussion (at least not on this website) to begin with. I only posted the link because you provided no contact information. If you’d provide an e-mail address here or contact us at our website, I’d like to bat it around privately.
109. Scott, I dont believe blame is the issue here (for most). I believe it is to examine the facts, find the holes, and attempt to fix ’em.
110. Tara,

     That sounded very Texan of you! 8)
111. Paul wrote:
     “Setting aside for one moment the Kim’s experience, the sheer number of incidents involving THIS road and THIS route argue forcefully that there is a problem with both.”

     Could you elaborate on how the other incidents argue for changes in signage and maps. How did signage and maps influence these other cases? What changes, if any, were made after these events?

     I have read of 4 specific incidents in the general area (Finley, Baker, Stivers, an RV), but I don’t see how they can be blamed on the current signage. There have also been vague allusions to numerous lost tourists or SAR missions along the corridor, but no specifics.

     paulj
112. 105- Yes, we’re here because we want to do positive, constructive work to understand what happened and where improvements can be made. But there are a couple of people with different agendas.
113. 111/: I will defer to RRR & JoCoSar as to other incidents and what changes resulted, if any, from them. In my experience driving that road, signage has not changed a great deal over the years. My understanding, from various reports, it that it is a known problem area amongst local SAR.
     As to the maps, I will defer to our in-house expert as I am not one (Mapper). I think part of the problem is a dearth of routes to the Southern Oregon Coast and many people see that one and don’t realize what they are getting into.
114. 111- Paul J

     I believe JoCoSAR said most or 1/2 of the SAR cases they have each year involve the Bear Camp area. RRR said about 1/2 of the Bear Camp incidents involve people who are trying to use it as a through route to the coast. Many of them get stuck and call to say they need a tow.

     Still it seems that if there were better warning signs the frequency of these occurences would lessen. We obviously don’t have proof yet of any of these individuals not taking notice of the signs. Although there was one account where Kati mentioned they didn’t notice the signs until they started having trouble.

     So it seems a logical conclusion that with all these incidents, the signs are not working as well as signs could.

     Many of the people trying to use Bear Camp as a thru route were probably looking at maps as well. Again we don’t have proof, other than we know the Kims were looking at a map.

     I haven’t heard of any changes that were made, although I thought Glenn mentioned at one point they had tried to improve the signs. It doesn’t seem to be working.

     JoCoSAR and RRR please correct those percentage averages if they are off. Thanks!
115. Allen 99 – wow, that’s a great picture of the Black Bar lodge. Also a sad reminder of how close James was to a place where he would have found safety.
116. Paul, Paulj

     I’m basing my assesment of the ODOT map on my knowledge, not on the Kim case, or any other case. Certainly the Kim case brought it to my attention. I would probably have a longer list of details if I were taking the time to give the map a complete critique, as I did focus on the bear camp area and warnings.

     I believe it needs improvement, and have listed why and in what ways starting on about page 1 of this blog.

     Thanks Paul, and I think Paulj and I must agree to disagree.

     Now I must track down some ancient data sources and creators of some PLSS digital data.
117. 99- That is a beautiful picture of the Lodge. It’s more beautiful than I even imagined.
118. Scott I know a lot of the folks checking in here, (most don’t leave their own comments) are really appreciating your input and observations.

     Also I think most would agree that the best use of energies in all this is to work towards solutions that can be scaled up to help in SAR cases far more common than Kati and James’ situation, where there is limited media attention, limited resources, and far fewer friends and family to help out.

     Life got in the way of fleshing out the DangerData.com blog with new SAR cases but I hope to get that going later in the week. The initial concept will be very simple – to direct people to the most appropriate authorities for tips in a given case AND to provide an online place for ideas or information to be shared and evaluated by the extended “online community” as well as those directly involved.
119. Scott,
     Beautifully written, intelligent post.

     I seriously doubt most of the people posting here want to place ‘blame’. To me to place blame means punishing for past failures & nothing more, no improvements, no changes, etc.

     I think the word should be responsibility & accountability. There seems to me to be a great deal of effort of not placing blame, as should be, but it is almost to the point of absolving any one in a responsible position of their accountability of the responsibilities of their jobs. Evaluating the job performance of those in responsible positions as to how well they handled and acted upon their responsibilities for improvement for the future to me is not placing blame, it is accountability. Everyone who holds a job must be accountable for their performance and to improve performance does not mean to ignore or excuse poor, unqualified or negligent performance simply because of the ‘blame’ issue. Unless the actions of each person in authority is looked at, their job performance evaluated, shortcomings & failures recognized & corrected, there can be no improvement. This also applies to what was done right. The same applies for the roads signs and maps.

     As you well stated, to blame James is simply not productive, he can’t come back and ‘fix’ anything, so to improve things one must work with what there is left. Anyone can do a quick search and find many, many people who have gotten lost in this area, albeit, most of them making it out on their own, little worse for the experience. If one is more of a new comer to this blog and has the time, the can go back through the thousands of post and see various links to post of people stating their experience of getting lost in that area.
120. In my personal life direction, I’ve been thinking a lot about SAR and how in the future I may want to dedicate some of my time to that field (in the long term with a focus on technology and coordination – since I’m already experienced in those fields). If there is anyone in the Bay Area working regularly in the SAR/EMC field that wants to have coffee/lunch please let me know, I’d be interested to start getting a better picture of the SAR field (internet searching/research aside).

     I’ll be in Oregon in May for some camping. I hope to stop and see at least a couple of people who were involved either in the SAR or just getting the word out. If you’re in the I5 corridor before I turn off at Roseburg and want to see if we can connect drop me a line. You can send a note to search at jamesandkati.com – still using that email to keep things vaguely sorted out in my busy email world.
121. 117/119 Joe and Lisa,

     Yes, it certainly looks comfy, with the wisp of smoke offering warmth inside.

     Another photo which caught my attention was this one of the Rogue River Trail (along the north bank?) It seems so tame, knowing what an ordeal the Big Windy Creek was.

     
122. 120/ Scott, I’ll second Joe’s comment about those here who really appreciated your effort in creating the jamesandkati site and making it available during the search, to relay hope and support to the Kim and Fleming families and friends. And having your statement to the media on behalf of the family, when the search finally ended. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.
123. Allen re: Rogue River Trail. I’ve rafted the wild section twice but have never been up on the trail for any length of time. It must be a great view down and along the river though I think floating is the way to go in that neck of our Southern Oregon woods.
124. 123- If you like the walking thing the trail is not bad I know alot of people who do it yearly, I am with you Joe and totaly in for the float as my mode of transportation…
125. RRR – I bet you are a good guide out there on the Rogue!

     I like hiking and camping a lot, but I think for the Rogue River floating and those fantastic meals out on the deck at Paradise are the way to go. I haven’t been to the other lodges but I’ve only heard good reports.

     About 8 years ago I went down with a German Travel TV crew filming a special. The producer had been to places all over the world, but was still really impressed withe the Rogue River trip, especially after they almost dumped a $50,000 TV camera at one of the bends.
126. Paul wrote: …. process in place so that SAR will know that the efforts of a given group are credible…

     Right Paul, I think this is such a big problem that the best approach for “SAR Support” efforts at first may be to not even try to coordinate things, rather just make the info available online, screen it as much as possible, and let SAR know it’s there. They can then decide if it’s valuable. Over time if this approach works the SAR teams will come to trust it.

     I asked Det. Mike Weinstein (Portland Missing Persons Investigator) about how online SAR might work and he pointed out that you don’t want too many different places working the same leads, rather it’s best to keep the information centralized at the most appropriate websites. He mentioned National Missing Childrens and Missing Adults databases.
127. I’m not against making improvements to the signs and maps, but I don’t think effective changes can be made without understanding the errors that drivers have made.

     If many of the drivers get lost in the BLM maze, then the entry to the maze needs to be changed, and exit signs added to the maze. But if most of the calls for help come from cars on FS 23, changes at the Camp Howard junction aren’t going make a difference.

     If most of those who need help are over confident locals, changing the ODOT map won’t help much. Making the snow warnings on the ODOT map bigger won’t matter if commercial maps don’t have any warnings. Lost hunters, hikers, and mushroom hunters require different signage than summer tourists.

     If many drivers think the snowdrift warnings apply to a spur road to a nonexistent ski resort, then the wording of the signs needs to be changed. Warning drivers that there may be snow drifts as late as May, or as early as November requires a different sort of change.

     Finley got stuck coming up from Agness, so signs at the Galice end wouldn’t have mattered. Plus it was ice that gave him problems, not drifts blocking the road. Stivers missed the turn up Galice Ck, so they may not have seen any snow warnings – unless there ones in the Cow Ck area.

     A ‘no services 60 miles’ might be appropriate at Merlin if a number of the drivers have run out of gas.

     paulj
128. #98 and #102 specifically, I want to please bring a tiny bit of light to the fact that there is a very clear (sometimes not so clear) definition between SAR, at least as I know it, and police investigation. Search and Rescue, here in Josephine County, is staffed with one paid person, that is me. I am not a certified deputy, nor am I trained as a detective. The investigative side of SAR is typically handled by a certified deputy, if not a detective. There are many aspects of Search and Rescue, I agree that accountability is important here, and I truly respect the insight and work performed by Scott during this event. I do however, believe that it is equally important to try to obtain a clear understanding of the difference between investigation of a missing person, and a Search and Rescue for a missing person. I would hate for this whole Kim “event” to be lumped into being called a SAR mission simply due to a misunderstanding of roles played. I hope that makes sense. (This is not a defensive post, just a reminder to get informed.)
129. Paulj

     People who make and publish maps want to do them as well as possible…waiting for tragic events to shape the map is not good practice.

     The map is lacking, cartographically speaking. Improvements should be made, and not because of any specific tragedy. I can look at a map and have a critical assesment of it, without knowing exactly what was going through the minds of a driver, or driver(s). The area is cleary risky and simple cartographic rules should be employed to clear up confusions in that area. There are not even county lines in the legend. Where I was taught to make maps, that is not a good idea. What is your argument to not fix something that is not even up to par?

     Engineers and people who work with signage and traffic/transportation don’t need to know specifically what happened either to make judgements on risky interesections and recommendations.

     Most of what we do is more about prevention than reaction….and that is based on years of study in order to know what kind of prevention works. sometimes it is unfortunatley about reaction, but the reaction is also based on knowing what works, in the fix.

     I wrote my assessement of the ODOT map in a style that really has other mapmakers in mind as the audience. They will know exactly what I am talking about (if it ever gets that far) and I bet they are already talking about changes they want to make, but are probably waiting to see what they can work with other agencies on…like USFS and BLM (my guess anyway).

     Its really not what any agency wants….to be called to act because of a tragedy. There is enough wrong/not good enough with the ODOT map that it warrants change, and its not about making the warning bigger. Its about making the map better. They publish highway maps…they have people employed to do that.

     There is no good argument to suggest otherwise. I know how easy it is to improve, and you can’t tell me it would not be worthwhile or that we need to know exactly what happened.

     Frankly speaking, I have said before (and I am only saying it again for your benefit) I would give the map a “c” if it were handed in to me for a grade. Its not a terrible map. Its not great.

     In some ways though, the map looks like an example I would use (as I have trained people, airmen actually, to create maps) as a bad map. In one excercise I would show them maps and they would have to tell me what could be changed and how it could be better. This map isn’t horrible but there are some easy changes to make it better. Its definitley one I would use in the “bad” category because of certain things that stand out to me, that I dont want to go into further tonight.

     In fact, I took time out of my personal schedule to write up my assesment of that map. I did not get paid to do that, and I also didn’t have time to do as complete of an asessment as I could. I dont have anything to gain by doing what I did, and I did it because its my honest professional advice and the map needs to change, not because I want to point a finger or complain (better things to do). And you met me with a challenging tone and took things out of context. I understand this is the interent and you can’t read my resume to see that I am qualified, as, I dont want my identity to get out. But please understand I am not doing this cause its a laugh. I took a hard educated look at that map, and time out of my day where I could be doing something else, and I dont want to argue for the sake of arguement.

     If ODOT doesn’t agree with me…thats fine. What they do is up to them and not me, and they certainly wont find what I wrote surprising if they ever read it. There is no reason to argue with me as you can’t undo what I have learned in the last ten years about making maps. I don’t need a tragedy to tell me what is wrong with it or how it could be better.
130. 8)
131. Lisa, your so funny! 8) to you too.
132. ps. I hope I dont come off as condescending toward ODOT. Quite the contrary. I am sure they are used to getting suggestions and concerns. I am sure they will take all of them in stride and might even have a few better fixes in mind already.

     It comes with the territory. If I got upset every time someone asked me to change something I would need to find another line of work.
133. 129 – Mapper, I’ve said before – you’ve got the knowledge and experience to do the analysis of just how much better the map could and should be; I just know that when I look at it, it doesn’t tell me very much other than that “a road” goes to the coast (and if I look real closely and follow that little arrow, said road closed in winter – in red, along with other non-warning stuff, like you’ve said). I do hope that your ideas are considered so that the next map is either more useful or doesn’t make it look like you can easily just take that unnamed road on the map.
134. I’m not evaluating the map as a professional, but as a user. While I prefer to use a more detailed atlas, all my travels in Oregon have been with an ODOT or similar scale map (AAA etc). Even when I have state atlas, I like to use this scale of map to give me an overview of the major highways.

     On my first trip to Oregon, a couple of decades ago, I made a big figure 8 through the state’s mountains in a small rental car, camped at forest service sites, and skipped a couple of passes due to late season snow (in June). That was with little more than a map like this, and a guide book to free campsites.

     In recent years I have crossed the state N-S 3 times, E-W twice, plus several shorter trips in the north. While most of the recent miles were on state and federal highways, I have also navigated along a number of the ‘paved’ and ‘gravel’ roads without problem.

     If I take a vacation trip to Oregon this summer, I’ll be quite happy to use the ODOT map in conjunction with a DeLorme atlas, and a few printouts from BLM and FS sites. I may also buy a few FS maps along the way.

     paulj
135. Thanks Maggie

     I also hope I don’t discourage others from offering their opinions on it, as you dont need a degree to know what looks right to you!

     I just didn’t want to get drawn into an argument about my assesment of it.

     I would love to see the next printing of the ODOT map…changes are usually a pretty routine thing anyway. So I am just looking forward to seeing what they decide to do, if anything.

     The reason the ODOT map is important, is because its the “official” state highway map, that travelers are most likely to pick up in Oregon.

     As we have talked about before, it would be nice if forest service/blm maps were available at rest stops too (as I think we determined they are not)

     But at least if there were a more prominent note on the ODOT map (in forest areas) that travellers should make an effort to GET a forest map, it would at least lead most people to think a bit more about the fact that hmmm. there is more to what meets the eye than is on this map.

     You cant expect people to just know that.
136. Paulj

     We posted at the same time. Basically that is what I mean…we can’t design maps for people who are as smart about them as you are.

     We have to assume people are not that smart, in order to do the best job.

     The ODOT map will be just fine for many people.
137. Good Evening Blog.
138. 126 – Hope my comments RE: NCMEC (National Ctr. for Missing Children) and NCMA (Ntl. Ctr. Missing Adults) were not misconstrued. They are generally not involved with MPERS investigations or SAR efforts, but are, rather, a clearinghouse, if you will, for the dissemination of information to people who actively seek out that information. That’s a short explanation of a long subject, and they definitely have their place in assisting LE, but it’s generally not during an unfolding, emergent situation.

     128 – I’d like to echo was JoCoSAR mentioned RE: LE MPERS investigations and SAR operations being separate entities (generally). In 99% of MPERS investigations, especially in a large city, there is no SAR involement, whatsoever., unless the circumstances dictate by location/terrain. In that case, within the City of Portland, for example, we utilize the local SAR teams from the County Sheriff’s Offices, which do a fantastic job for us.

     While we have worked side-by-side on cases before, usually, the investigative results usually determine whether a SAR mission is necessary. That is carried out solely by SAR personnel. They’re job is not to investigate, but to search. Now that being said, our local SAR is headed up by a Sheriff’s Office detective. Therefore, if/when something is located, he is qualified to investigate further, or we work together on furthering the investigative side of things.
139. Bye RRR, have a nice evening over there!
140. Thanks JoCoSAR and Mike for talking about this. Mike, I think I understood what you meant but may not have described it accurately in the comment above. Part of the challenge thinking about online methods to “help out” is that it seems a lot of us “outsiders” are very unfamiliar with differences between Law Enforcement, SAR, Air Support Volunteer aspects, etc. The Kim search seemed to bring almost every agency to bear on this so it’s a good study of all the possible players who may be involved in “finding somebody”.
141. Definitely agree with you, Joe, about this case having brought so many resources together for a common goal. It’ll be interesting to debrief this case internally (on a much more local level than the OSSA report, etc.), not only investigatively (as would be the most likely scenario for my involvement), but also with respect to the interaction between the many varied agencies, jurisdictions and disciplines not normally used to working together so closely (speaking only for myself here).
142. Det Mike I think it’s a slow night here at the blog but as always it’s great to have your input! I”m down with a bad cold myself.
143. General purpose Forest Service maps can be large and relatively expensive. One I have measures 40 x 52″. I’d guess the current cost is in the $9 range. Sometimes districts print smaller, free, maps for tourists, showing major routes, campgrounds, or the items of special interest. They also have simple trail maps.

     paulj
144. Just popping in for a sec. Det Mike, thank you for that insight about the different roles on the search side of things and the investigation side of things as JoCoSAR mentioned. Until this case, I hadn’t really thought about all of the different agencies involved and that it’s really not always just one angle coming at a case. Always interesting to hear your comments!
145. Hey Det. Mike!! I finally got to watch the kgw clip that you talked about, thanks to the wonderful resources here…great job!! Thank you again!! You are amazing…
146. 143 – Paulj, I think the problem is that most folks do not stop to buy those maps (I’m guilty, and I go into the forests in the summers – this year I’ll buy the right maps, promise!). A few pages back we talked about this, and it doesn’t sound like the average person always goes out of their way to actually buy these FS maps, assuming they are aware that one even exists for any particular area. In the Kim’s case, it might not have been an option if the Forest Service office was closed at the time of night that they missed their exit and saw this alternative on the map they had. At least if the State map gave some indication about what they were headed into, perhaps they would have been more concerned about taking that route. Instead, just looking at the State map alone, no red flags are really raised – except the note about winter (and since it was still a few weeks before winter, even that could be made more clear).

     I do agree that those maps are well worth the $9 and could definitely help, if folks are given a “heads up” of sorts that they should have one in a certain area.
147. What is a map??
148. Hi, Detective Mike, don’t know if this has been asked, or if you are at liberty to answer it, but do you know if any persons claiming to be psychics got in touch with LE on this case? Of course they could have tracked down the family, but am curious if any contacted your dept.? Have you had any experiences with such people on any MPERS cases?
149. 147:RRR 😛
150. What can I say! Its about comic releif!
151. Well, Joe says it is a slow night around here, and I hesitate to post this, as way OT, but I keep thinking of these issues involved in today’s headline story about the crash of commuter plane in Lexington, Ky., in the pre-dawn darkness of Aug. 27, 2006. The main parties involved are:

     1) AIRLINE: The pilots turned onto the wrong runway. The runway where Comair Flight 5191 attempted to take off wasn’t long enough for a passenger jet and had no lights. (Other pilots had also found this runway configuration confusing.)

     The airline contends that 2) Blue Grass Airport and 3) the FAA are partially responsible.

     2) AIRPORT: Only one controller, (instead of the FAA required 2) was on duty when the plane crashed. The veteran controller cleared the flight for takeoff, then turned away to do administrative work, officials said. He didn’t see the plane turn down the wrong runway, try to take off and then crash in flames. (Controllers say that it is not their duty to monitor pilots all the way through takeoff.)

     3) AGENCY: A week before the crash, the taxiways at Blue Grass Airport were altered as part of a construction project, but the maps and charts used in the cockpits of Comair and other airlines were not updated. The FAA did notify airlines of the changes through a separate announcement.

     In a brief statement, Comair said, “We recognize the investigation is a long and difficult process for the families, especially when today’s announcements receive intense public scrutiny. Our desire is to learn as much as we can in order to prevent these kinds of accidents from happening again.”
152. Allen no problem – I think that’s very relevant as another example of how difficult it is to single out any one factor in a tragedy. Mistakes and miscalculations happen all the time but rarely combine to form tragic events as they did in this KT flight and for James Kim.
153. Allen, sad story, lots of blame to go around. The pilot is always responsible for his actions, but the tower should have had 2 persons as required. The FAA did send a notification, and it’s up to the airlines to update their pilots; no way to get new maps/charts everytime something changes temporarily. I’d like to read the NTSB report on this one.
154. Another story that has stirred up some folks: The local man here who set out at the end of Oct. to circumnavigate the world from So. Calif in a small boat. He was adrift 500 miles from tip of So. America, was able to call on his cell phone for rescue (and where are the cell towers 500 miles at sea?) He had to sit there awaiting a Chilean vessel to get to his position to rescue him. He was found and brought back, injured from his ordeal.

     He would like to start over and build another boat, presumably to take another trip. Some locals have been vocal that he ought to think about paying for his rescue first.
155. 148 – Madeleine, I don’t know about LE, but we received several tips/offers of help through the website from psychics, we were also pursuing possible contacts of psychics who specialize in missing persons cases. We never received a strong indication from the families that they wanted us to follow up those leads/prospects with a strong effort. I recall that my impression was that most of them that provided actual information/readings weren’t that close. Someone actually gave us coordinates but in looking them up in google earth I think they were pretty far away from where he was found. We have received cards and notes from people who have ‘talked’ with James after he passed too.
156. It’s still amazing to me how much this story moved people. I’m still trying to go through the 11k mesgs we received through the website. I normally only can go through a few at a time. But I just went through 20 mesgs and got wonderful notes from Sherwood, OR and then Islamabad, Pakistan. Another day ran across a message from Sri Lanka. The power of a news story to have people emotionally connect around the world is interesting when it hits so directly close to home. It has definitely helped me shift my perspective on life in a positive way and kick out some of the general cynicism that had crept in over the years.
157. 154/Madeleine, And that would not be any ordinary rescue… rounding Cape Horn is like the Mt. Everest of solo sailing. Past the “Roaring Forties” and “Furious Fifties” (latitude 50 deg. South) is really rough water, almost iceberg country.
158. 156/Scott, I hadn’t thought about this in awhile, but I remember reading those messages at your site, especially after Kati and kids were found, and everyone worldwide was still hoping for the best outcome. Eventually I could not keep up with the sheer volume of text, as it seemed to arrive faster than one could read.
159. Technology,,,
     I think some of the SAR-technology people might benefit from the Public Health Service epidemiologists who also have to wade through a great deal of information in tracking down outbreaks in particular geographic areas but receive much of their information as vague references in peoples recollections. The epidemiologists use computer programs designed to allow group efforts to wade through massive amounts of information. So too do commanders in police incident rooms.

     SAR/Investigation,,,
     I think everyone is generally aware of the distinction and realize that a man going to a park ranger about his wife having fallen off a cliff can be a SAR report that later becomes a homicide investigation. I do recall one particular police agency that was later criticized for its failure to combine its “welfare check” incidents at a specific address with its “missing persons” reports about that address. Only after multiple corpses were found buried there did the police computers spit out both categories.

     Reports to SFPD: Its nice that SFPD was considered by some to be a repository, but I would not expect SFPD to know much about the terrain in Oregon. SAR operations are generally local. Well categorized information can be shared. Reams of data and ‘pyschics suggestions’ would clog certain agencies to a halt though. I recall one recent “missing persons case” wherein the family wanted police aerial searches of the freeways in a number of states but it turned out the “missing person” was happily leading a new life as a willing ‘slave’ to a new ‘master’. This is why agencies like to deal with other agencies not with members of the public.

     Coordinator/Trekker:
     I too felt the coordinator’s place is back at headquarters, not out there sloshing through the snow. I felt it was in indication of courage and dedication that a coordinator in a short staffed operation would go out and do what was necessary and not hide in a warm office while only others went out into the cold. Wealthy counties may be able to afford the luxury of a “headquarters staff”, poor counties need people to go sloshing through the snow, not handle paperwork.
160. Off-Topic,
     Comair 5191 Kentucky Blue Grass Airport:

     Sure. A lot of agencies and poor communication, but still the major concern of crew fatigue playing the real role although ‘sloppy procedures’ such as lack of a sterile cockpit are of great concern. Pilot and co-pilot had initially entered the wrong aircraft that morning, so just how alert were they to be able to deal with the lack of runway lights alerting them to the fact that they were on the wrong runway. A short-staffed tower can be flooded with extra employees but it won’t make any difference if the pilot’s sleep schedule is so bad that the pilots are not alert.
161. mapper, I did not know there were different maps available for different purposes until this blog and your info.
     If I were a travler, I would just pick up a map at a convenienc store or gas station. From what I understand, this general purpose, if you will, type of map is apparently what James & Katie had & this type of map is what the general public would most likely use.
     To me, those maps should definitely have warnings and clear markings about questionable or more dangerous routes.
162. I want to include a quote from one of my favorite writers,
     Dostoyevsky, as a tribute to James. It is from one of his most famous works, “The Brothers Karamazov” (1880). The character speaking is the beloved Father Zossima, a 19th century Russian Monk, therefore there are a lot of Christian references. I found these passages just now again, after years, and I realized they are similar to my Christmas wish. The quote is not meant to have any literal bearing on any of this because it doesn’t actually, and I am non-affiliated religiously, so please don’t let any of the 19th century Christian terminology throw you off. It is just Father Zossima speaking of his most important life lessons; there is so much truth and wisdom in these words, and I wanted to share it because it is beautiful tribute to life, and a quote of profound inspiration:

     “Love a man even in his sin, for that is the semblance of Divine Love and is the highest love on earth. Love all God’s creation, the whole and every grain of sand in it. Love every leaf, every ray of God’s light. Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all embracing love. Love the animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble it, don’t harass them, don’t deprive them of their happiness, don’t work against God’s intent. Man, do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greatness,
     defile the earth by your appearence on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after you – alas, it is true of almost every one of us! Love children especially, for they too are sinless like the angels; they live to soften and purify our hearts and as it were to guide us. Woe to him who offends a child! Father Anfim taught me to love children. The kind, silent man used often on our wanderings to spend the farthings given us on sweets and cakes for children. He could not pass by a child without emotion, that’s the nature of the man.

     At some thoughts one stands perplexed, especially at the sight of men’s sin, and wonders whether one should use force or humble love. Always decide to use humble love. If you resolve on that once for all, you may subdue the whole world. Loving humility is marvellously strong, the strongest of all things and there is nothing else like it.

     Every day and every hour, every minute, walk around yourself and watch yourself, and see that your image is a seemly one. You pass by a little child, you pass by, spiteful, with ugly words, with wrathful heart; you may not have noticed the child, but he has seen you, and your image, unseemly and ignoble, may remain in his defenseless heart. You don’t know it, but you may have sown a seed of evil in him and it may grow, and all because you were not careful before the child, because you did not foster in yourself a careful, actively benevolent love. Brothers, love is a teacher; but one must know how to acquire it, for it is hard to acquire, it is dearly bought, it is won by slow hard labor. For we must love not only occasionally for a moment, but for ever. Every one can love occasionally, even the wicked can.

     My brother asked the birds to forgive him; that sounds senseless, but it is right; for all is like an ocean, all is flowing and blending; a touch in one place sets up movement at the other end of the earth. It may be senseless to beg forgiveness of the birds, but birds would be happier at your side – a little happier anyway – and children and all animals, if you yourself were a little nobler than you are now. It’s all like an ocean, I tell you. Then you would pray to the birds too, consumed by an all-embracing love, in a sort of transport, and pray that they too will forgive your sin. Treasure this ecstacy, however senseless it may seem to men.”

     There is a time and a place for everything, and I just wanted to share the beauty of those words…
163. 162- I do not really like the word or meaning, of sin. But I know that in Latin [sine] means without, and that is where it comes from. It evolved from originally meaning without god, but by his words, I think Dostoyevsky would have meant it to be, without love.
164. For most travelers a map that shows the freeways and major routes is fine, very little more is needed and many travel guides are based on such freeway strips wherein nothing is depicted unless it is easily reachable from the freeway.

     I don’t think someone consulting a map should necessarily be specifically warned of hazards. A simple depiction of roads should indicate their width and the like.

     The problem is that certain of all the roads off in the middle of nowhere that a tourist might be tempted to use, certain are going to be attractive because they appear to be useful links. This Bear Camp Rd appeared to be a route to the coast. Nothing on the map warns of the difficulty involved. And ofcourse nothing indicates that it is essentially a seasonal route, oft-used in fair weather, seldom used in winter.

     IF there had been some travel agency who had pre-planned the trip we would all be addressing that travel agency’s incompetence at having selected that route. Unfortunately, maps and route selections are only starting points.

     A warning box on the map advising of winter dangers might have dissuaded them from attempting the road or encouraged them to stop for supplies. So too might have highway signs.

     Part of the beauty of remote areas is the absence of signs and part of the advantages of Oregon is the lower taxes due to lower expenditures by government agencies.
165. Changing the symbology to make the map clearer (ie, county lines) is not expensive, nor is many of the changes I suggested. Its about making the map clearer and better.

     Its my opinion the state of the ODOT map has nothing to do with funding. It has more to do with the choices someone made when creating the map. They make updates anyway, there are a few smarter choices they can choose to make it better.

     I think there is a misconception that changing maps, or updating them is expensive. Its not, especially if they print them yearly anyway.

     The map has a lot more than just highways on it, it is not as simple as it should be for a road map. therefore if they are going to include so much information they should have critical information, like names of roads that they include on their map. Roads are the focus.

     Its more about giving drivers all the information they need and communicating it in the best way. Its not just about warning boxes.

     I, for one, would not be looking at the travel agency if a travel agent sent them down that road. I would still be looking at the map, because that is what I do.

     If ODOT doesn’t like the responsibility, well then maybe Oregon should find another agency to do a different “official map” where its not one department who’s sole focus is only state roads.

     Do you really think travellers are like…hmmm…well this map is created by ODOT so, they are going to really focus on the state roads, but we can’t really trust that those other roads on here and the campground stuff is accurate. So we will just use it for the state roads…

     No, like most people, they pick up the offical map, and that is it.
166. ps.

     something I would like to see, in most states, but especially ones like oregon, with lots of wilderness.

     The “offical map” on one side, which includes all the info it has now.

     The other side, has a pared down map, with only neccessary highway and road system information for navigation and more room for highway names, seasonal warnings, etc.

     The official map is so busy it takes away from the purpose.

     Most highway dept’s create both kinds of map anyway. It would be cool if they made it two in one…..
167. I am being told that the OSSA report will be released (approx 140 pages) tomorrow morning on the Klamath County website. Just FYI.
168. Ooh, thank you, JoCoSAR! I’m glad to hear that it will be easily accessible, too.
169. That should give everyone a chance to buy a new ink cartridge for their printer in time!!
170. thanks for the update jocosar, it will give us something else to talk about!!
171. WOW. 140 pages. sounds thorough. why klamath county website? just curious.
172. Scott, thank you for that re: psychics. I’ve known of cases where they actually helped or at least were in the ballpark with the location. And of course the more publicly known a case is, the more people call with “tips”. I had meant to include you in that question, so I’m so glad you saw it!
173. Allen, I’ve only been involved in one rescue involving the sea, many years ago, and it was me and my family after our dinghy sank in the middle of Avalon harbor. You can imagine how uncool that was, with all the folks having their Sunday morning Bloody Marys looking on from their expensive yachts when the Coast Guard came to the rescue. It was a good example of a poor decision, though, too many lbs. in the dinghy.

     Seriouly, I cannot fathom the solo circumnavigation thing, the resources involved in that rescue, and the guy saying he was going to do it again (according to the letters to the editor). Lots of folks riled up over it who had initially been very concerned and followed the rescue closely.
174. 160 – Fool’s Gold, I hadn’t had a chance to read any of the news about this crash, so it does sound like there were some other things going on with the pilots. It’s like a lot of aviation accidents, though, seemingly unconnected things that layer or multiply and may contribute to the accident. Or it could have been just fatigue.
175. Madeleiene

     Hope things are going well with your husband.

     Forgot to mention. That guy in the boat, he had a satellite phone, that is why he was able to call for help.

     I was watching that one too… I think the most amazing one though latley was the lady in New Mexico!
176. Good Morning Folks!
177. RRR &/or JoCoSar: you’ll post the Klamath report link when you have it ?….like Tara, am curious why Klamath County ?
178. 176/RRR: Morning, we are SLOWLY thawing out up in PDX, how are things in GP and Merlin ?
179. 177- Klamath County was the lead agency for the report

     178- we are frozen this morning, we did a good melt yesterday but it froze back up it is supose to thaw today I hope!
180. Does anyone here have contact information for John Rachor that they could forward to me privately? A phone number would be extra special, but anything would help me find him.

     I’m also interested in contact information for the sheriff’s deputy that was injured if someone has that, I had the name at one point but can’t find it now.
181. Scott, an article in sfgate says he is from Medford.

     Go to http://www.411.com and do a search for John Rachor in Oregon. You will see two listings for “John & Susan”. One is in Agness, and one is in Central Point, which appears to be a “suburb” of Medford.

     I have no idea if those are him, but it seems pretty likely.
182. Scott – I do not have the deputy’s name, but he is a Jackson County deputy. Sorry.

     Yes Rodney, Central Point is just out of Medford area.
183. Kudos Rodney G! Does the G stand for “Goods”, as in – Rodney delivers…!/? 😀
184. Scott I just sent that info to you. The injured SAR worker was Dave Penkava.
185. Of course Joe Duck delivers too! 😀
186. Thx Lisa. It’s the blog team! Just like “The A Team” on 1970’s TV, except less violent!
187. Scott – I’d said Dave was a volunteer SAR but I don’t know if that is correct or not. My understanding is that the Sheriff deputies often volunteer their time on SAR searches to keep the cost from becoming prohibitive, and I think that was the case here.
188. I’d like to propose a change to the ‘closed in winter’ warning on the ODOT map:

     “Do NOT attempt this road when your lodge is giving you ‘winter season’ rates”

     (Click the Activities and policy buttons of http://www.tututun.com/main.html to see what I mean).

     paulj
189. I think were like A Team and Knightrider combined! We just need some of that awesome theme music.
190. 8) (Would you believe it – I tried to leave that by itself again and it told me, “Duplicate comment detected – it looks as though you’ve already said that”!)
191. Then some might call Joe Mr. “D”, and say that he says stuff like, “I think it would be a good idea to use the internet as a tool…”
192. 191-

     i.e. as opposed to, “I pity the fool”
193. One of the reasons that I am not bothered by the ‘closed in winter’ designation on the ODOT map is that I have lived with the notion that winter is not defined by the calendar for many years. An old AAA atlas has a general warning box on each of the western states and provinces:

     “Because the length of the seasons varies greatly in higher elevations, inquire locally for the condition of roads designated ‘closed in winter’ on this map.”

     In the Oregon outback it adds:
     “Inquire locally for current conditions before driving on unimproved roads on this map.”

     As a side note, on this map, from the mid 80s, the Galice-Agness route is paved (a thin black line) up to the county line (summit), and gravel (wider dashed gray) down to Agness. There is no ‘closed in winter’ designation. No road names either.

     paulj
194. Tara, will we be having more guests after the report comes out?
195. 193/ RRR or Jocosar could tell you more specifically when it was finally paved, but that section of the road used to be gravel….and in the 1980’s, not very good gravel at that.
196. UPDATE ON REPORT:
     KGW.com is saying the report will be released at 4:00 today. There will be a press release at 4:15 covering the findings, they will probably stream it live on local stations.
     http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_011807_news_kim_report_due.51c0dcdc.html
197. 196: CORRECTION – Press CONFERENCE at 4:15.
198. This I did not expect:
     “Included in the report is a first hand account of Kati Kim’s perspective of how the situation unfolded and the subsequent survival and rescue of her and her two girls.”
199. del at Lisa’s request
200. 198- Thanks Paul! That sounds great. It seems that the report will truly hold so much information – very exciting!
     😀
201. Paul, thanks for the heads up!
202. Um, everyone, I think the report is up. Click on the links on this page for the different sections.

     http://www.co.klamath.or.us/sheriff.html
203. I’ll pretend to be Joe and say it like this:

     🙂 ATTENTION 🙂

     Report is up.

     http://www.co.klamath.or.us/sheriff.html
204. Wow, thanks Maggie! I just jumped back on and there it is!
205. Sorry I took over, Joe – I felt it was noteworthy enough to demand the attention posts you do. 😉
206. You were right Maggie! No problem at all.
207. 203/ Thank you Maggs-Duck. 😛

208. Pingback: Oregon State Sheriff’s Association Report on the Kim Family Search in Oregon « Joe Duck

209. I don’t know how Josephine County’s After-Action Review said that ‘helicopters worked’ when there was no use of fixed wing aircraft and no way of knowing if they would have worked better.

     The ‘include air assets in briefing’ etc. next time doesn’t explain why no one asked for air asset briefing this time.

     The keep media away is not a surprise.
210. So anyone besides me have trouble seeing it? click on the pages they say they are loading it just a blank screen! I am using an apple with safari.

     Help!!!

     Laurie
211. 210 – Laurie, some of the files are very large and take a long time to open. You may want to first save them to your computer and then open from there to avoid lag time with many folks hitting the server all at once. Worked for me 😉
212. “. . . inquire locally for the condition of roads designated ‘closed in winter’ on this map. . . . ”

     Well, maybe it should say: be sure to inquire of someone who is a native speaker of the English language provided that there is hope of finding one at a convenience-store/gas-station these days.

     “personal issues with neighboring Jackson County”
     Yeah, I felt something like that was going on.
     Was it that the coordinator was countermanding orders in Jackson county or in Josephine county??

     Autoaccident on major road that resulted in vehicle being obscured by foliage as most likely scenario… I would sure question that it was the most likely scenario or should have been the highest priority even if they felt it was most likely.

     Conversation with James Brothers not memoralized for followup. WOW. Information felt to be ‘low grade’. WOW again!

     Was that plastic bag note on the gate ever found????
213. Dropping relief supplies?
     I wonder if these were what the pilots were carrying for their own use and they simply dropped it or the planned items were dropped but packing proved to be insufficiently sturdy?
214. Maggie do you have the Area Map file? I just pulled it. Any way to make it smaller but still legible? At 46 meg for that file alone I think all the downloads are going to crash their server soon.
215. 214 – I can definitely work on it tonight – should be able to reduce the file size at least some and get it posted as a smaller file. You are right, that one’s really huge!

     I’ve jumped around from page to page a bit until I have time to sit down and read all of it all the way through, but Kati’s own account in both places I saw it is absolutely heartbreaking. I cried all over again for her, still not able to even imagine anything past about day one.
216. Actually I just reviewed it and there’s not much key information on that HUGE map file.

     Key things so far for me after quickly reviewing the reports were that they went up FS23 at the infamous turnoff, backed down, and then intentionally headed off on the BLM spur on which they were found. After driving along that road, which narrowed and went to gravel, they realized they were lost.
217. I don’t know if it was ‘realized they were lost’ or ‘acknowledged to themselves that they were lost’. Clearly they did not know what road they were on and had some degree of concern for their safety as soon as it started snowing.
218. 208/ Joe, your page “Oregon State Sheriff’s Association Report on the Kim Family Search in Oregon” says:

     “No comments yet.
     Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.”

     (Commenting on No Comments because Comments are Closed)
219. I’m confused about the status of the map they used. Report says it was NOT from Wilsonville Info Center and made it sound like the road warning was in a corner rather than right on the road itself.
220. Reference:
     Part III, Fact Finding Details, pp. 46-47

     Debrief of Wayne Stinson of Kati interview on Dec. 4.

     Some startling details about lack of outdoors experience, stress and reponsibility.
221. Joe, or anybody does the font seem smaller in size here, or are my eyes playing tricks on me?
222. Reference:
     Part III, Fact Finding Details, p. 35

     “PILOT RANDY JONES stated he began flying in the area of Windy Creek. There was no incident command in the field. He located a piece of clothing. Eugene Mountain Rescue could not get into the area of Big Windy Creek so JONES called Sheriff WINTERS and asked about using Carson to go short haul in the area. WINTERS would not authorize using Carson Helicopters because he had not trained with them. JONES suggested WINTERS contact Brim Aviation in Ashland. JOHNSON from Jackson County SWAT was inserted into the area. Because it was late in the day, they gave him ten minutes to get in the area and do a quick search for James KIM.”

     “Later on December 5, 2006, he received a call from a Carson pilot who stated he saw two flickers of light near a pool of water where the body was found the next day. He stated they had gone over the pool multiple times in the past two to three days but never saw anything.”
223. Allen I did that on purpose because comments should go here…
     (I reworded it to be clearer)
224. 219 – Joe, I noticed that, too. The Wilsonville Info Center has puzzled me from the start. WVille said they stopped, Kati said they didn’t, then WVille backed off of the statement. Pages back, JoCoSAR mentioned that after all of this, someone had contacted WVille and received bad advice to take a scenic route over Bear Camp to the coast, which was also odd.

     Like you said, the road warning in a box in a corner is different from how I remember the ODOT map I have at home that has the red box and small arrow pointing to the road.

     I was so hoping that the OSSA report would clear up every question I had – I know, not realistic, but always hopeful 😉 All of that is still a puzzle to me.
225. Reference:
     Part III, Fact Finding Details, p. 36

     “On Monday, December 4, 2006, JOHN RACHOR made a call to the FAA to confirm. The FAA confirmed there was a flight restriction despite the fact that he had called earlier that morning and they said there was no TFR; otherwise, he would not have continued to search. He later learned that it was after Kati and the children were found that the flight restriction was placed on the area.”

     “RACHOR was ‘concerned’ because even though he was the one who located James KIM’s footprints and Kati and the children, he wasn’t allowed to continue searching.”
226. I hope JoCoSAR and RRR can check in soon, although the biggest question for me is pretty much answered which is that this was neither a case of brazenly ignoring signs nor a case of being so confused by signs they took the wrong turn.

     Rather they took NF23 and when it became snowy and looked like the NF23 road was going to become impassable they tried the right fork BLM road even though they did not know exactly where it would go. When it became very clear that route was a mistake they stopped the car.

     This raises some questions about how to improve the mapping and the signs up there but I think Rodney’s sign of a few days ago indicating BLM to the right is NOT a through road is a good approach.
227. 222,225 Amazing Allen, thanks for posting both of those.
228. Hey Mapper and Frances, I would be interested in both or either of your email addresses. Mapper, I wrote something humorous about living in Oregon a few days ago, I would like to send you. I know for sure your email is in here somewhere, but I don’t know where… 8) If you don’t want to post it again, I’ll try and find it…

     And Frances, I would love to talk with you!
229. Lisa, Yes. Some answers and more puzzling questions. BTW, I did read and appreciate your 162/199 earlier, with no time on a busy day to reply.
230. I am here
231. Hi RRR – what’s your take on the report? Is the Josephine County buzz that they did a good job with the interview summaries or not?
232. 230/RRR – Have they finally removed that nasty duct tape ?
233. One thing that seems well documented in the report is that there was a lack of knowing who was in command, who was coordinating what, what had happened, what was happening and what was being planned.

     Sure some volunteers were inadequately attired. The SWAT team didn’t have bright clothing or even bright arm bands. (I’ll bet some local junior high school has hundreds of bright arm bands or bright vests used for athletic events).

     One wonders why the knowledge of a specific destination was so ignored. Why were searchers so slow to realize that getting lost on a road to their destination was what had happened?
234. I have to be honest I just walked in the door we had a search today, I have not looked at the report….I am watching the press conference right now.
235. ….on December 5, 2006, he received a call from a Carson pilot who stated he saw two flickers of light near a pool of water where the body was found the next day. He stated they had gone over the pool multiple times in the past two to three days but never saw anything

     Allen that really jumped out at me also, and I kept reading it. Still not sure what to make of this and I don’t understand why there was not substantial follow up on this point.
236. 235 / He had two lighters, right ?…that were never found ?…or could it be light reflecting off his glasses and he was already down and gone ?
237. 234/RRR – Of all the ironies for you to be out on another SAR the day the report is released…
238. 220/ I haven’t seen any mention of this in the media yet, but I have a feeling that unfortunately the press will sensationalize the statement by Kati in paragraph 7 of the last page (47) of the Fact Finding Details. About responsibility for predicament.
239. 237- Your telling me!
240. 222/235 Joe, that’s ironic that Carson rescues the family on Dec. 4th, and the next afternoon Winters removes Carson, inserts 1 SWAT with only 10 minutes to search, and then that evening Carson sees these lights at the next day’s final location.
241. Ok I am going to go read the report and I will be back….somehwat scanning the screen as I read 🙂
242. METHENY took Spencer KIM with him. It was foggy along the Rogue River corridor so they jumped to about the middle of Bear Camp. They flew Bear Camp for five and a half hours. They concentrated on roads from Bear Camp to Highway 199 and Onion Mt. and to the south. They followed every spur road and logging road from Grants Pass to Brookings to Gold Beach.

     At first I didn’t understand the “every spur road” but it looks to me like the area north of Bear Camp (where the car was located) was buried in fog so they eliminated all the spurs south of Bear Camp Road
243. Carson seems like a pretty heads-up unit. Part III p. 37, RICE advised that all the aircraft had victor to victor — victor to victor? VFR talk-between-aircraft channel?
244. Here is some clarification on the point Allen and I were making above about flying over the pool of water:

     METHENY thought when he located James KIM there was no movement but he did not want to assume as he was 300 feet above the ground. He requested medics. He noticed that KIM was wearing blue jeans and a grey jacket. He was lying in the creek face up and the only identifying feature was his face. The clothes completely blended into the area and the water. He was submerged and the water was moving over him. He was very difficult to see.
     OSSA – Kim Family Search Review 43 of 47
     METHENY recalled that they had flown the area before but if KIM had been there, he must have been face down because his face was the only identifiable feature. He was convinced that KIM was not in the creek the night before or if he had been in the creek, he was face down. He might have gotten rolled over by the movement of the water.
245. Oh just reading it could take all night…..eeekkk
246. Let me say this in general what I have heard from the grapevine and those who were at meetings today and not on the search, overall it is very favorable for us.
247. Tommo I was also wondering what “Victor to Victor” meant. No Google help for that term but chopper to chopper makes sense to me.

     I’m much more impressed with Carson after seeing this report.

     Looks like they did a good job, though I didn’t see an explanation of why, after thorough coverage of spurs south of Bear Camp Road, they did not focus more on the spurs to the north.
248. 235/244 It’s tempting to speculate that there could still have been signal lights/viability on Tuesday night, but that unrealistically extends the estimated survival from 2 days to 4 days, while soaking wet in 20 degree nights without food or shelter.
249. There is a perception that the search managers did not act quickly when they obtained the information on the cell phone “pings.” Interviews with the involved parties and examination of the official records show that this was not the case with one possible exception. Daylight is a precious commodity for search and rescue operations. In retrospect, it would have saved valuable time and daylight if Powers, Rubrecht, Stanton, Anderson, and Fuqua might have met late Saturday night in lieu of the 8 A.M. meeting Sunday Morning. Meeting during the morning realistically moved the beginning of the focused search to the afternoon when all the mutual aid arrived from Jackson County thus leaving only a few
     hours of search time that day.

     Above is from the report.

     What an understatement. Not only that, but Fuqua wasn’t asked to come in until 1100 on Sunday, if the reports are correct.
250. Ref: PART IV: AGENCY COMPILATION TIMELINE, p.39

     I notice the inclusion of full-color Google Earth photo of BCR-BBL area, with James’s route overlaid. I wonder how much (if any) use was made of this resource during the search, by any agency.
251. Great to see the report published! I am swamped with business work this week. I will get to review it over the weekend and look forward to the discussions. Hope all is well with all of you.
252. Bamadad 249 re: ping meeting. I’m hoping JoCoSAR can shed some light on this, but note from Brian Anderson’s comments that the significance of the ping info was not clear to people before that meeting. Helping SAR and LE understand the significance and use of these new technological clues should be a focus of any SAR enhancement projects.
253. Barnadad, you have been very accurate and generous all along.

     Frances?
254. Hi Glenn!
255. unrealistically extends the estimated survival from 2 days to 4 days

     Allen I agree. They mention finding evidence of ONE overnight in the Canyon but not a second one.
256. I’m here…barely. Busy reading report before I can answer any questions…(Joe, is there a more organized way to list questions?) I want to try to read it before I can comment on it..that’s all.
257. Hi JoCoSAR, thanks for being here!

     Hmmm – should I set up a separate page that would only be for questions? Let’s wait and see if there are just few questions or many. If it’s just a few then keeping things on this page is best.
258. Local news 12 just interviewed Tim Evinger who was in charge of the report and Brian Morton KDRV concluded that “no major mistake” by family or search efforts led to the death of James Kim. I agree with that.
259. 258 – Local media-wise, I’m hearing mixed reviews, mostly slanting not so favorably about the effort. On the radio they said that the report was out and that it was “not good,” KGW/NBC also seemed to mention mostly the negative.
260. hi guys, still reading, just got home.

     But if you look at the ODOT map the warning I think Kati mentioned, is on the lower right corner of the map. Check out the pdf of the entire map and you will find it.
261. Here is a good link to the news release:
     (for those who’d rather watch the movie than read the book)

     http://cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_018165924.html
262. deleted at mapper’s request
263. 255- With hypothermia, he probably couldn’t sleep a second or third one if that were the case. I couldn’t sleep when I was hypothermic.
264. jeeze, im behind… Ill start reading…
265. It doesn’t make Josephine County Sherrifs dept. look very good, IMO. Also at one point it seems James Kim went walking because Kati was mad at him for getting them stuck like that. Sounds like he felt bad and wanted to make up for it. This report also makes it look like John James and his brother agreed on what story they would tell the investigator. It also makes it sound like, very subtlly, that he made up his story about telling Sara to check the road, aftr Kati and the girls were found. The first part of the report sounds like it is defending SAR and others from criticism. Doesn’t sound objective in parts. There’s also numerous typos throughout.

     Just my thoughts after reading most of it. (first impression)
266. 261- Thanks Eric!
267. Other notes: Strange we never heard of them stopping at the gas station in Merlin. It does not say if they got gas there, but from the report it seems they had plenty of gas, so I assume they did. However, it doesn’t mention if they got gas there. Kati said the warning sign at the junction for FS-23 was the first one they saw (Pac- you listening) Does that mean they took the Peavine detour?
268. Regarding the “ping meeting” and the lost chance to gain time on Saturday: It should be noted that STANTON and RUBRECHT spent much of Friday and all day and night Saturday involved in tracking this [false] lead, interviewing witnesses and playing “phone tag” with detectives at OSP … [Part III p. 23]

     Seems like OSP was pretty solidly behind this ping data, but it seems that JoCo needed some convincing. It seems that the LE personnel were struggling not only with a technological barrier, but with multiple conflicting reports and perhaps with personal and organizational fatigue.
269. For me it puts into writing what I felt like was going on from home…
270. Tommo that was how I read it too and would like to get JoCoSAR’s take on “lead priorities”. After the fact it’s very easy to focus in on the relevant info, but they must have had hundreds of leads to track down and it seems the many bad leads may have interfered with the search than any other factor. I remember reading one at JamesandKati.com from a lady that insisted she spoke with the Kim’s in Port Orford. I even tried to call her myself.

     I did sense from the report that the information from John James and later from John Rachor was not given “highest priority” and that still confuses me. As locals with extensive knowledge their insights should have been considered to be very valuable.

     Also, I don’t get the idea that it is standard procedure in SAR operations to *prioritize leads* in an organized way – rather you just go with best hunch as to the best leads.

     Ideally I’d think you’d sort them with a likelihood factor and a time value factor and then systematically follow up to cover the most valuable information in the shortest time.
271. 249/252/268
     Eric, is this a fair synopsis?

     Part III, p. 31
     Eric Fuqua was aware of search on Friday, Dec. 1st, and contacted SFPD and OSP with offers of help. He mentioned it to Noah Pugsley (rarely credited for his role) who contacted Scott’s JamesAndKati site on Saturday. Kim family then contacted Noah with 3 cell #’s, which he traced in records to 2 text/pings on Glendale tower @ 1:30am 12/26, and notified Eric. Edge Wireless gave corporate release of records that evening. When Eric contacted JoCo w. local relevancy, he was bounced to Det. Mike of PPB and reviewed map and CDR over phone. Eric was recontacted late that nite for more info, which was relayed back to JoCo. Sara R. then contacted Eric on Sunday morn for 11am meeting. At that meeting, while waiting for records to arrive, Eric and Noah reconfirmed pings with test calls from Merlin center to Glendale tower.

     During this time there were some false leads. Report of seeing Kims at gas station in Port Orford on coast led Spencer to re-direct search westward. Report of caravan of xmas-tree cutters spotting Kim car. Report of silver car off the side of a road. These diverted investigative resources until Glendale tower pings verified BCR target area.
272. There were a number of new points in Kati’s second interview, the printed near the start of the report.

     – they finalized the lodge reservation while driving that afternoon.

     – the confusing information they got in Merlin. Since they didn’t buy anything there was no paper trail. The clerk did not come forward with any leads.

     – the small coast signs suggest that they took the Peavine detour (have to double check Joe’s photos on this).

     – they missed all the snow signs except the 6 mile one. I think Peavine detours around one, but not all 3.

     – a private snowplow near the FS23 junction gave them a false sense that this road was being plowed.

     – there already was some snow at the higher elevations

     – it was not raining when they started up the mountain

     – they weren’t snowed in on Sunday morning, but they stayed put, thinking that they were near a well traveled route.

     – the high probability spots on the cell map appear to be faces of ridges facing Glendale. The map helped focus the search on the Bear Camp area, but it gives little indication that the car was actually at low altitudes north of the FS23.

     – In the report, Bear Camp is variously used to refer to FS23, BLM 34-8-36 east of FS23, this BLM road and spurs north of FS23.

     – Carson helicopters searched the Bear Camp area quite a bit, but due to fog along the river, paid more attention to areas to the south.

     – false leads took up a lot search resources.

     – communications and command in a SAR situation is a lot more complicated, and important, than I realized.

     – Kati’s recollection of the warning on the map leaves some ambiguity as to what map they had. What she quoted does not match the maps I’ve seen (2003 ODOT), but she could have been paraphrasing it. It sounds as though the map had been in the glove box for a while.

     paulj
273. The warning in question (I think), is on the ODOT map, it is at the lower corner on the right. It matches her description and text perfectly.

     Let me know if you want me to post the link to the ODOT map again.

     She doesn’t mention the warning that points to bear camp road, but I think it is because she is just stating the more detailed warning, which is also ambiguous is on the lower corner of the map.
274. mapper – pleas e post the odot link again. Thanks.
275. Ok I am here but still reading…….I can try and answer stuff if you give reference so I can either look it up or catch up! 🙂
276. 272

     It could also be that they had an older ODOT map (with only the warning in the lower corner). I have said before too that the warning boxes look like an afterhought, would not surpise me if those were added later and are newer.
277. Click to access Oregon_State_Map_2005_front.pdf

     Check out the warning in the lower right corner, it is in red text.
278. 277 – Mapper, I have a 2001 ODOT map in my hands. Same warning is there but very, very small and without bold text. So, it’s been improved, but still isn’t very noticeable.
279. Thanks Mapper.

     To someone inexperienced with maps, the distance from where th6y were to Galice doesn’t look very far when drawn to that scale.
280. Maggie,

     I would expect as much! I told you they make improvements!! Just sounds like they need some new direction maybe!?

     Anyway, on the older map, does it have the same warning boxes with arrows as the newer one does in the bear camp area?
281. dkf,

     Really….the whole thing is so understandable 😦
282. 272/
     “In the report, Bear Camp is variously used to refer to FS23, BLM 34-8-36 east of FS23, this BLM road and spurs north of FS23.”

     And Stanton calls this the Black Bar Lodge road.
283. 280 – Mapper, yes, that part is identical. I have to admit, I never considered how darn “red” this entire map is until you mentioned it. If things like warnings were the only things in red, perhaps they’d stand out better (I know, I know, I’m a little slow… I’m just now really seeing what you meant).
284. Maggie

     your hardly slow!! Anyway, its one of those things that is better illustrated than said with words. A quick fix would be to make the warnings yellow….or lime green….you know…anything but the same color as the dominant color of the map.

     But, yeah, I like to reserve dramatic colors like red for special purposes.
285. If the map they had did not have the box saying road closed in winter over/adjecent to Bear Camp, it makes this whole mishap that much more understandable. Am I understanding correctly that older ODOT maps did not have the box ??
286. Lisa,
     can’t seem to get report printed out, am working on it, limited time right now.
     Not good time right now, but will respond quick as I can.

     Just jumping on & off, scanning comments as fast as I can.
287. 265/ “This report also makes it look like John James and his brother agreed on what story they would tell the investigator.”

     That is not the impression I got from reading this:

     Pt. III, p.26
     DENNY JAMES INTERVIEW
     Denny JAMES was interviewed on December 28, 2006. He freely agreed to speak to investigators and mentioned that his brother had called to say that investigators would be coming to see him. They specifically did not discuss the events that day during their call to each other.

     JAMES gave a virtually identical account of the events as provided by his brother in a separate interview including the statements made by STANTON and RUBRECHT and John JAMES’ suggestion that they search the Galice Access Road beyond the one mile of the road [34-8-36] that the brothers had traveled. JAMES said that his brother had done most of the interaction with STANTON and RUBRECHT.
288. Paul…

     not sure, but possible. but it looks like those warnings have been in place for awhile.

     But it is ambiguous (the warning specific to bear camp)….I think she was stating that a more definitive warning was on the lower corner.

     but just speculating.
289. 284 – Too much green already with all those darn Oregon forests, but bright yellow or bright pink (sorry, Lisa, couldn’t resist) or even a dotted line for that and similar roads to show that something is different.

     285 – Paul, my 2001 ODOT map *does* have that identical boxed warning and arrow, but just that the general boxed warning at the far left of the whole map (actually, it’s where Idaho is) is just not as bold or as large.
290. Maggie

     Agreed…I would love to see the whole color scheme addressed, and more dashed/dotted lines employed in the symbology, especially to county lines.
291. 267 we never heard of them stopping at the gas station in Merlin.

     I remember this early on and then nothing…..

     Said the guy at the Merlin gas station said they stopped for snacks.
292. 289 – Um, far right of map (not left) – still learning my right from my left, so please bear with me 😉
293. 289/290:Maggie/Mapper: the report alludes to numerous other parties making the same, or similar mistakes (getting lost or trapped on Bear Camp). I think it is reasonable to assume some of them had maps…which clearly supports Mappers position that the warnings/colors/legends on the map need to be changed and made more forceful.
294. 292/Maggie – you must be left handed.
     291/Laurie – what it does not clarify is if they got GAS when they stopped in Merlin…still wonder about that.
295. Paul

     I would not say that the colors need to be more forceful, just that dramatic colors should be used to bring attention to important things…and colors that symbolize danger like red or oranage, or bright yellow are good for warnings.

     Otherwise, its really about harmony and contrast, and creating it through the use of the right colors and line weights, and symbols.

     Biggest thing that stood out to me when I first looked at the map was the overuse of red for general purposes, and for warnings…and lots of green (as maggie mentioned).

     There are so many other colors to choose from along with other symbols that will help create a better harmony and hierarchy on the map.

     Thanks for backing me up though guys! 🙂
296. 294- I believe it states that they stopped and asked directions, and then the attendant thought they got snacks, in his “recolection” when later asked…..
297. 293 – Agreed!

     I’m just now really reading through, and related to the map thing and making a “local inquiry” as they tried to do, the gate thing strikes me similarly. (From Part II pages 8 & 9 as numbered on the report or 11 & 12 in viewer)

     In Washington forests on this visit, gates meant an area was closed, so the Kim’s were concerned about getting trapped inside a closed gate and left a note there. Wow, and it’s only after this that we know that there was so little chance that anyone would be going around shutting gates behind them. Sad.
298. 295/ Mapper: What I meant to say was “which clearly supports Mappers position that:” – dramatic colors should be used to bring attention to important things…and colors that symbolize danger like red or oranage, or bright yellow are good for warnings.
     I’ll leave mapping to the Mapper and stay within my realm of competence, which is just to observe and comment. 😛
299. Paul,

     After I wrote that I thought…Paul probably meant….

     hahaha. of course I should always realize what you really meant! Sorry about that.
300. The quote in the report is ‘Not all Roads Advisable, Check Weather Condition’. The map says ‘Some roads are impassable following severe weather conditions’. That is why I suspect Kati was paraphrasing the warning.

     Off hand, 2003 looks the same as 2005; 2001 has a smaller warning on the right. 2003 adds a couple of road warnings to the 2001 (such as the one off of US199).

     Note the map does not identify BLM land, which would add a lot more noise. Still in some cases that identification would help distinguish between BLM roads and county roads.

     paulj
301. 271. Noah Pugsley’s role certainly does seem to be under-mentioned. Without his personal efforts this whole thing could have turned out differently. The events described in post 271 seem pretty accurate other than I arrived at Jose County at 8:45 am, not 11 AM–but thats trivial.

     Only in hindsight can we consider what coulda shoulda been done Saturday night. We must keep in mind the context and knowledge base at the time. And now it is released that there was information (what turned out to be false tips) that were contrary to the “ping” information. The nature of the information was definitely something that had to be weighed. And it was. Kati and kids were found only about 30 hours later. Frankly, I think that was a pretty darn good search and rescue.
302. 301/Eric F: good, balanced points…so much to weigh, so much to consider…it has to be hard to decide which should be the priority. Easy in hindsight, hard at the time.
303. Amen Paul…thanks Eric!!
304. mapper – do map designers take into consideration color blindness? For some people the distinction between reds and greens is not as clear as for the majority.

     paulj
305. Paulj

     you are right (about the quote) I dont know why the other text is sticking with me, why i thought i read it in there…it could be because of fools golds post above which says it? not sure, I really thought I saw that text in the report….trying to look again.
306. paulj

     well….not really….but contrast is usually pretty obvious. but its also why i would suggest employing more symbols and dashed/dotted lines, as color doesn’t always do it.

     Sometimes we do things in black and white, due to budgets or printings that require it, and have to work with different greys, and line weights and symbols are the only thing to work with.
307. Paulj

     yeah, not sure now (about the paraphrasing or if it was a different map entirely). I think it is post 212 that threw me off.

     Either way…I stand behind my ODOT map words 🙂
308. 291 & 292 — anybody know when (date) it was discovered that the Kims had stopped at the Merlin gas station?
309. Hi Kip!
310. Eric how reliable is the ping information in general? Are there false positives from, for example, a tower that happens to line up but is 100 miles away?
311. 301/ Eric, thanks for reviewing this. It helps to finally have some first-hand reports to clarify earlier news sources.
312. Eric

     Thanks, and thanks for mentioning Noah!! (well, not that I know Noah but I bet he appreciates it, so I thank you for that humble gesture!)

     I’m a little bit curious if it would be easy to add a legend to your cell map….perhaps this would help, if it were emailed to authorities, for them to read it. Just something to think of for the future maybe…
313. 😀 Attention 😀

     If you have a QUESTION for the many excellent people involved in the search who have come here please put “Question for _name_” at the top of the comment so they can find the questions more easily, like this:

     QUESTION for Eric F:
     …..
314. Wow, different spins on the story:

     http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/01/18/national/a195405S35.DTL

     http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_011807_news_kim_report_due.51c0dcdc.html
315. Joe how do you mean different spins?? Good spin?? Bad spin?? Strange Spin?? (wow I am getting dizy!!!)
316. RRR – it seems Oregonlive and KGW are concentrating on the “confusion” aspects while the SFGate is focusing on the “wrong turn”.
317. Aaahh ok that makes sense….neither seemed like a “big deal” to me as I read them….Maybe I am numb to it all anymore
318. (316), Joe, RRR, this whole thing has now gotten very interesting. I am chomping at the bit to dig into this.

     Looks like the report is clearing some things up.

     I hope the “players” come back on here to discuss a few points.

     I see Eric and JoCo here…looking for responses from others.

     Are we putting the questions somewhere?
319. RRR I think you and I read it the same and the interview on local TV with Evinger also suggested that there was no ‘big mistake’ by the Kims or in the SAR mission.

     As a general thing I’m wondering what is the best way – if there is a “best way” – to prioritize and share incoming information. The neat thing about using online tools is that hundreds of people can quickly share and review information.
320. Glenn so far there are only a few questions. We could split them off in a separate place, but when I did that before the response was poor so let’s leave questions here for now.

     Note to put this at top of question posts so they pop out:

     QUESTION for (Name):
321. Joe/Glenn – We had another search today. As I sat at my desk in my office coordinating resources, I asked phil if I should ask for JD’s help…I am still wondering how to use this resource. It was a fairly “normal” search, and I am not sure how to even approach an online forum for help. The subject was found only 90 yards from the house as it turns out, but I was trying to figure out how to use this particular resource….
322. Hey did Paul’s “spaghetti” get scooped?:

     “Officials at the time had to sift through hundreds of pages of information, tips and decipher maps that showed what Evinger described as a “bowl of spaghetti” of logging roads the family could have been lost on.”

     ( 😛 spaghetti eating smiley!)
323. 322 – Lisa, I noticed that, too! 🙂
324. (321) JoCoSar, Joe, we should have a discussion on this. I think there are several ideas that could be quickly utilized. I will be available all weekend.
325. 322 – I think that I stole it first…I told Evinger that statement and then he stole it from me!! I did however give much credit to resources here on JD’s…Maggie, your map is in here too!
326. QUESTION for Mapper

     Is there a better way for denoting danger instead of the little box? Just looking at that map and thinking about how I always fold my maps so my eye goes right to where I need to be looking, it seems like I would have folded the box out of the new “map” I have created with my folds…..

     Could there maybe be something like ***Bear Camp Rd*** and then the stars in the legend give you the warning???

     Laurie
327. 322/323: I sweat that’s an original, I did not plagiarize, borrow nor steal. Please don’t sue me! 😉 One threat was enough.
328. QUESTION FOR RRR, JOCOSAR, or any any other locals —

     In the Overview (page 7 of 23), it is stated “The Kim’s stopped at a gas station in Merlin after exiting Interstate 5. After missing their exit near Roseburg, they pulled out an Oregon map that they carried in the car that showed a straight shot to the coast. James went into the gas station with his map to get some clarifications about directions while Kati stayed in the Saab with the girls. James came back to the car frustrated. He thought that the attendant gave “strange directions” and that the man was acting like he didn’t understand what James was asking. Kati felt that he definitely didn’t communicate that it was a dangerous route.”

     Back Page Four of the Joe Duck Blog, RRR78 wrote (message 73) — “THere are two gas stations in Merlin one RIGHT off the freeway that is open until 11 on weekends 10 on weeknights, the second is in the town of merlin and it is about 3 miles off the freeway it closes around 9.”

     Does anyone know if the gas station attendant has ever been interviewed?
329. 325 – JoCo, I saw my map and smiled 🙂 That’s cool.
330. 325/ Maggies work seems to be quite popular. 😛
331. 314-319/ As I review the accumulating headlines now, it’s evident that each editor makes the decision on what they deem to be the conclusive outcome of the report. Sometimes the differing headlines are quoting the same background story by AP/Jeff Barnard, with dissimilar effect. By tomorrow, when more writers have had the chance to digest the whole report, there will be even more variety.

     http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1112837681
332. 328/I’m guessing they stopped at that station right of the 5, you hit it right as you come off the exit, and I believe it stays open later than the one in Merlin.
333. JoCoSAR 321 RE:Online SAR Assist. I’m thinking a blog format will be helpful using pictures of the lost, looking for car licenses, identifying possible places to find leads like hospitals, directing people to tip lines and the proper authorities, bringing in some free help from outsiders who might have map skills, etc.

     For many local searches it might not be very helpful because you don’t need more info, you just need to cover territory (like the lost child up at Crater Lake).
334. I just listened to Evinger on KGO radio, they did 1/2 hr with him and then listener calls for the next 1/2. Gene Burns used the spaghetti also! 😉

     It was a good interview, but it was pretty bad that I knew the answers so some of the questions to Evinger, but he could’nt remember the answers….. I was yelling the answers to the radio! LOL My husband thinks I have lost it!

     Laurie
335. 328- We are not sure as to WHAT gas station they stopped at and not real sure that “a gas attendant” was even interviewed. I would venture to guess that deputies MIGHT have stopped at the gas stations and said have you seen this and had a “missing persons” picture but….I Have not heard of a gas attendant interviewed…
336. 314/ Joe, you have broken your 1-link rule!
337. Maggie – I am sorry that he didn’t list you in the “credits!” It’s not because I didn’t tell him who did it, he even went to your site!!
338. 337 – No worries, JoCoSAR. You are not talking trash about this blog, so it’s all good 🙂
339. Laurie,

     Well, first people should train themselves to check out the legend, as this will often highlight how those kinds of things will be symbolized, then go ahead and fold away!

     I think something like stars (*) would work.

     The stars idea is creative and something like that could work in conjunction with other tactics! I have never used this method but dont do a lot of warnings in my day to day work. I like it…but it would still depend on people reading the legend or the fine print.
340. I believe that I am only going to be allowed to do one media interview..that is with the Daily Courier here in GP. I realize that it is not online, but I will try to convince the reporter to send it to me electronically so that I can post it here..just fyi, Jeff Duewel sits next to Jeff Barnard (AP).
341. 337/JoCoSar: if I don’t get proper attribution & royalties for “spagetti” I will be consulting with my attorney, Snarls Blowhard, Esq.
342. Maggie – I think that I was able to prove to the detectives how valuable this site has been. I showed them Yelp.com along with all of the maps here. It was interesting to see the detectives reading the site in for a different reason.

     It was our very own JD himself who managed to facilitate the interview with Kati. Kudos to Joe. (Paul, this is in reference to the “cryptic” talk the other day about Joe and a badge!) I got to speak to Joes wife on the phone, and she is as friendly as Joe!!!
343. QUESTION for JOCOSAR OR RRR…
     Kati’s account didn’t say if they got gas at the station. Does anyone know if they got gas? I’m assuming their last gas stop was Halsey between Albany and Eugene.
344. Dee – I am not clear on the gas issue either. I believe that they only went there to get better directions. That didn’t work out very well!
345. No BIG mistake in the SAR????

     Sorry folks, but please remember they authored the report.

     Let us just consider this particular blog. IF this were in fact the SAR blog, shouldn’t we all be jailed? Or atleast removed from office for malfeasance? Consider how inefficient the communication is on this blog. Consider how there is a lack of standarization as to using a number, a name or a topic-heading to reference earlier posts.

     Now consider the actual SAR communication and command setup… it ain’t all that different! Oh please don’t get me wrong. I am NOT saying that they were acting like the Keystone Kops out there. I do however see one heck of a problem. Everyone is saying ‘we do most of them successfully’ and ‘most are one-day’ (NO, not actual quotes from any report, marks used to emphasize). Its like bringing a one gallon container because that is all that is needed most of the time and then being totally incapable of dealing with a ten gallon requirement. The procedures and communication set up for the one gallon task should suffice for the greater task. Its clear that the one day searches are the norm and that the difficult searches are doomed.

     If they don’t have briefing procedures established there are not going to be any briefings. If they don’t have a ‘Daylight Critical Awareness’ they are not going to have a rushed evening meeting. If they don’t have an awareness of ‘Mutual Aid Response Deployment Time Lag’ they can’t avoid problems of starting a search in the late afternoon.

     Sorry, but I see a very BIG error here. And I still see no focus on the essential questions: What was critical information that we paid little attention to?
346. 345 – If I understand what you are saying, are you saying that SAR does not have enough practice doing larger scale searches? Due to that lack of practice, mistakes and miscommunications were made? I think that’s what I read??
347. Gas station attendant.

     Given the difficulty James Kim felt there was in communication, I would not expect any later interview to reveal much information.
348. It is interesting how 2 different people can read the same thing and come up with a different story…..

     http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/16494291.htm

     Mercury News Staff and Wire Reports
     Oregon investigators Thursday released a scathing review of how law enforcement authorities carried out the search for James Kim, the CNet editor from San Francisco who died of exposure last month as he sought help for his family stranded in the wilderness.

     I did’nt think it was scathing….

     Oh, and jocosar did’nt you know you already gave one interview?!?!?! They quote you in this story like you sat down with them and gave one….. 😉

     laurie
349. 348 – I was interviewed by the OSSA detectives, but no real media interviews since Dec. Oregonian. I gave a few comments today to Jeff Duewell who then gave some to Jeff Barnard.
350. I was also interested to read about how distracting the report of a false sighting at Port Orford had been, especially for the search assets that Spencer Kim was directing. I knew about the woman (Carene Williams?) who had claimed on the JamesandKati family website to have talked to them at a grocery store there, but didn’t know until today’s report that there was also a supposed sighting by a Shell gas station attendant in Port Orford.

     Needing to be responsive to every tip, it must be really, really hard for officials to sort the valid ones from those that are placed by cranks or folks who are simply mistaken.
351. 348-I see what you mean now..yes, those were AP comments to Jeff Barnard who works out of our local office (Daily Courier)
352. Ellen – that is strange, see..just goes to show! I hadn’t heard about the grocery store tip…
353. JoCo — I think Joe even Googled around, found a phone number for Ms. Williams, and tried to call her himself (but found the number was no longer valid).
354. QUESTION for JOCOSAR.

     In Kati’s account, it was never actually stated that they were still trying to get to the coast when they continued down BLM34-8-36. Nor was anything mentioned about the possibility of turning around at the intersection and going back to I5. “It was starting to snow harder so they made a decision to take the road that went lower. Thinking that lower road would get them out of the snow zone, they continued on.” Do you think it is clear at that point that they were still trying to get to the coast? I don’t see any other interpretation.

     Also, I noticed that on Sunday Nov. 26th they were in a spot that had no snow and it was raining when they woke up. This was news to me, I thought the weather reports had it snowing up there on that day. To me, Sunday seems like the only window of opportunity they had to get out of there. It’s unfortunate.
355. So what was with this Body woman, this was the first I had ever heard of this story….. Where was she and the forest service a week earlier….
     Any more info about this that I can read anywhere else?

     Page 42 of the fact finding details:

     “He had the SWAT member five feet off the ground when he
     looked down the creek and saw James KIM. He then saw approximately five guys walking up the creek towards the area. He set the SWAT member down.

     The ground searchers were “Forest Service One” teams. They had parked on the road above and hiked down the hill. METHENY did not know who they were coordinating with. They were so exhausted and wet that they needed to be medivaced out. RICE said no one knew who the Forest Service Team was. RICE believed that they were “freelancing” and doing their own thing. Apparently, on her own volition, District Ranger Pam BODY sent that Forest Service Team out and she was taking credit for finding James KIM.

     Laurie
356. Dee- I did not interview Kati myself. I only know as much about that information from the report. I was not up there on Sunday, but I was driving home from Salem with my family and it was beginning to snow on Sexton summit that Sunday evening.
357. 346/Josocar/LargeScaleSearch Practice/Experience.

     Not exactly. I was trying to point out that the problems seemed to mushroom with large scale searches but what I was thinking was more that the procedures used in small scale searches are the ones that are going to be used in large scale ones. That no one can say to themselves that since they suddenly find themselves in a large scale search they will now verify an 800 number’s geographic availability prior to releasing it. Its either part of the procedure or its not. The Large Scale search will not go well if there are no procedures already established for manning the search office. The ill-dressed volunteer who himself became a problem means that there was no established check. The dark black garb of the SWAT team means that there was no established program for issuing bright armbands.

     If a small-scale search requires a xerox machine at the command post and two reams of paper. Then there has to already be a procedure in existence for a specific person at a specific time to arrange for a larger xerox machine and more paper. The small scale searches are supposed to be springboards for larger ones, but it seems that small scale searches in the area never involved asset availability logs or were aviation intensive. Small scale searches never involved briefings or updates.

     I think Josephine County is underfunded but some of the mistakes and miscommunication were due to a lack of a plan existing for a large-scale search.

     Think of it in terms of Constraint Programming and Scale Up Economies.

     If your computer program can handle short stories but can’t handle a novel, you should know that and be aware of it while reading all those short stories rather than suddenly realizing it when you faced with a novel.
358. I can clarify that the Forest service was not free lancing, they actually had an assignment.
359. Fools Gold – I understand what you are saying. I think that there are procedures in place locally (in each jurisdiction). Those procedures work well in each jurisdiction alone. I think maybe where some of the difficulty lies, is when you have so many different types of agencies trying to mesh their procedures together. This isn’t impossible, it does however take practice. This is where funding (or lack thereof) definitely comes into play
360. JoCoSAR, I liked they way Sheriff Gilbertson started off the press conference today. He looks to be a good guy to work for. And starting off with “a clean slate” with an ambitious new guy might be just what the doctor ordered.
361. I also hope the Sheriff goes after some SAR grants. It seems like a pretty good idea to me.
362. Lower Elevation Decision Making Process.

     I do not know if the priority was progress toward the coast or the priority had shifted to get to a lower elevation to get out of this snow and therefore out of perceived danger or atleast perceived difficulty.

     Can they be faulted for continuing off into nowheresville in an attempt to escape danger? Well, it is perhaps better to become stranded relatively near the “primary” road but they were mistaken as to just how un-travelled and un-plowed the roads were in that area.

     When my engine was “sucking fumes” I came to a long bridge and decided not to venture onto it since I might block it and be a bottle neck or even become obscured by snow and rammed by a snow plow. I pulled off the road into deep snow and stayed put right beside the primary road. It turned out later that I could indeed have made it across the bridge and to a gas station that I didn’t know was there. I made a decision without sufficient information of the area, but I didn’t wander down side roads in an attempt to find gas or find a more comfortable spot. Was it a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ decision that I made? I’m not sure.

     Pressing onward into even more remote and unlikely areas may not have been the wisest move for the Kims but they were trying to avoid being snow bound and thought that lower elevations would help them. It was a reasonable decision it just turned out to be the wrong one.
363. 361 – In the plan. There has been talk about hiring a grant writer for the SO.
364. Question for Jocosar:

     Why was there no one in charge of the “courtesy clearing of roads”?

     Stanton said he also didn’t know who was in charge.

     Why didn’t there seem to be a sense of urgency when the family had been missing that long? Did you know how long the family had been missing?
365. 345/ FG

     “Essential question: What was the critical information that we paid little attention to?”

     Let me modify that a bit… “What valuable non-agency (private) resources were not fully utilized (or immediately heeded)?”

     Edge Wireless: major tip which targeted search, yet Eric was begging for SFPD, OSP, JoCo, PBB to buy his credibility.

     John Rachor: even though he found the tracks and family, he was not allowed to return to search on Monday due to TFR.

     Carson Helicopter: rescued family, but was withdrawn later on Tuesday due to Winter’s objection.

     John James: had local knowledge, snowmobiles at hand, and tips on tire tracks.

     Blogging community (JD site): Joe made some offers, but largely unheeded?

     Solicited tips: family which had positive ID of Kims at Roseburg Denny’s.

     False leads: Coast sighting, tree cutters’ tip, silver car off-road tip …(negative value as diversion).

     Psychic hunches: of no value.
366. Yes, Josocar. Multi-Agency Involvment is a problem.
     Too many cooks. Too many different types of pans. Too many chefs who want things done their way. Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.

     Ofcourse if one has a Mutual Aid Pact and requests assistance, it does no good to then say we don’t want those additional cooks and don’t want to deal with their problems.

     If some agency that is really obscure brings vital information on a strange map it can be a temporary ‘monkey wrench’ but some coordination system has to already be in place to deal with it. Its not really all that unanticipated an event or atleast it shouldn’t be.
367. 364 – Lisa – As for Josephine County, starting on Friday, Stanton was the “IC.” Others even noted this as typical protocol. There was urgency, but without detailed information, it would have been very unorganized urgency. As information came in to JoCo, logical leads were followed up on. We got a print out of the family information just before we left town and headed up the mountain.
368. Something I don’t quite have a grasp of yet. Was the Incident Commander always the same individual? I realize it was not Sara Rubrecht. Could someone shed some light for me on who it was?
369. IC was a joint effort….Either Brian Powers, Brian Anderson, or Jason Stanton were the IC’s.

     When it was a small scale such as Sara and Jason Clearing roads it was Stanton.

     Then it grew and Anderson and Powers took over, Sunday threw Wed Powers and ANderson shared the IC
370. I got to speak to Joes wife on the phone…

     Ha JoCoSAR – and I has some ‘splainin’ to do after that, but not quite as much as when the week before it was “This is the Portland Police Department calling…”
371. Friday threw Saturday it was Stanton
372. 366-I still agree with you. Unless those are regularly practiced and exercised though, you are still dealing with new and unfamiliar chefs. Correct? These types/size searches are NOT COMMON around here. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be prepared for them, it only means that we need to make more of a point to practice/exercise them in a simulated event.
373. 370- Did ya have to explain when i called about the blog going haywire that one day on postings!!!
374. 370 – I did feel sort of silly telling her that I knew you from the “site!” I think I remember her saying something like “oh that darn thing?!” She was nice as can possibly be! I still imagine that she was puzzled!
375. 365/ And one more resource:

     Spencer Kim: Chairman of aerospace corporation, with assets, high motivation, and connections higher up. With a better SAR plan, chain of command and infrastructure, his efforts could have benefited the overall search better.
376. Ok…it has been a very long day with the early release of the report and an entirely different search simultaneously. I am off to bed now, I will be back tomorrow. Thank you all for your patience and input!
377. 354: Dee/ That still puzzles me too…there are multiple allusions to “the road that went lower” implying that they viewed the road they went down as the only way down out of the snow. But that is incorrect, there were 2 roads they could choose from that went lower, the one they chose, and the one they came up/in on. Given they knew that civilization and safety could be found by reversing their course, one can only assume they thought the way they went was an alternative route to the coast.
378. RRR – yes that one too, but I think it was earlier in the day so I didn’t get quite as funny a look as the other night!

     Goodnight JoCoSAR, thanks so much for being here!
379. 377: I have to agree with ya Paul.
380. “Essential question: What was the critical information that we paid little attention to?”
     Let me modify that a bit… “What valuable non-agency (private) resources were not fully utilized (or immediately heeded)?”
     ……….okay. That is a good modification, but it seems that ‘agency resources’ would not have been wisely used if there is doubt as to who is in charge and who is doing what.

     Edge Wireless: major tip which targeted search, yet Eric was begging for SFPD, OSP, JoCo, PBB to buy his credibility.
     ……..Agreed. Way upthread I posted about the officials focusing on his 26-miles while he was focusing on the specific indicated areas albeit with a slightly less confidence. It seems the officials couldn’t get past the 26miles blinder. WHY was that? Was he trying to write an essay when they only had time for a one-liner? Did he bury his ‘nugget’ too deep in his statements or were the officials merely in mental mode of ‘we process ore rather than gleaming nuggets’.

     John Rachor: even though he found the tracks and family, he was not allowed to return to search on Monday due to TFR.
     ……..Only Agency Assets Hog the Limelight!

     Carson Helicopter: rescued family, but was withdrawn later on Tuesday due to Winter’s objection.
     ………Private resources are always disfavored by officials. Its not right but its the type of personality that becomes an official.

     John James: had local knowledge, snowmobiles at hand, and tips on tire tracks.
     ………… But no official standing. Downgraded mentally to ‘nuisance’ rather than ‘resource’.

     Blogging community (JD site): Joe made some offers, but largely unheeded?
     ………Blog is unsophisticated resource and is viewed as nuisance rather than resource. Should not be, but it is.

     Solicited tips: family which had positive ID of Kims at Roseburg Denny’s.
     …… Just how much information did this add? How was this one report which turned out to be true different from the zillions of reports that turned out to be false or too vague to be of any use?

     False leads: Coast sighting, tree cutters’ tip, silver car off-road tip …(negative value as diversion).
     ……..There are ALWAYS false sightings and worthless tips. Look at how many people spotted Laci Peterson in a variety of places when she was actually lying on the bottom of the bay?

     Psychic hunches: of no value.
     …….Psychic reports of “will be found near water” or “in a high place” or any other psychic nonsense are always of no value whatsoever. All sizzle, no steak. Sheriff in one county commented that psychics were spreading his resources thin in a search for a kidnapped girl. Phone time taken up with vague meaningless comments. Deputies sent on wild goose chases, etc. Reports that had to be evaluated were multiplying but his personnel were getting tired and frustrated.
381. 377- That was the impression I got, that they it was an alternative way forward toward the coast, along a lower elevation.
382. “alternative route to the coast/ or alternative route to safety”.. I dont know.
     I think making a 180 was the right thing to do but they may have had a mental reservation about doing that or they may have had a real concern for their ability to turn around on a snowy, narrow road.
383. one can only assume they thought the way they went was an alternative route to the coast

     Paul this makes sense to me and it makes me think differently about “sign improvements”. Signs are not what sent them down there, though signage/gates could have kept them off that road.
384. 382/ They could have kept backing up if it came to that, at least the route they came in on had recently cut tracks…and that junction is very wide, more than ample to turn around safely even given the snow. It is one of the few places one COULD turn around safely and relatively easily. Have to run with the coast route theory in the absence of further clarification from Kati as it is the only way I can make sense out of that decision.
385. 382- I think they could have turned around at the fork? It is quite wide there… I think they took the road that looked more inviting and was headed in the direction they thought they needed to go…
386. I really liked Rodney G’s signs…posted on both sides of the road. Simple, succinct, forceful…effective.
387. 384/385 Wonder-twin powers unite! Just Joking! 😀 😀 (Need to go to bed…)
388. Fools Gold 380 – I think that “nuisance vs resource” question is important. I’d bet that there are “rules” that could be applied to various types of information to better prioritize them / rank them / follow up.
389. 380/ FG
     “Solicited tips: Positive ID of Kims at Roseburg Denny’s.
     …… Just how much information did this add? How was this one report which turned out to be true different from the zillions of reports that turned out to be false or too vague to be of any use?”

     The value of the Roseburg tip, once verified, was that it narrowed down the search to I-5 corridor and either Hwy 42 (then thought to be most likely), BCR, or Hwy 199>North 101>GB. Before this tip, there were 17,000 sq. miles between PDX and GB. Now, Hwy 126 to Florence, 101 North of Coos Bay, and a lot of other routes to the coast could be eliminated. Before the Glendale tower pings, the only other solid tip was the Wilsonville CC, surfacing later, and disputed.
390. Disaster Drills…

     I don’t really know if large scale disaster drills are all that worthwhile. It may be great fun for school kids to writhe on the ground as mock patients to give the triage nurse practice on a zillion patients. I don’t know if it really helps all that much.

     I don’t think large scale searches need practice and I think it would be a waste of funds. A little time spent looking at the small scale searches and realizing the weak points is probably more productive than some multi agency coordination drill.

     Some things scale up well, some don’t. The recipie for Spanish Rice that will be fed to two dozen volunteers can be scaled up to feed two thousand volunteers … and it doesn’t take a mock drill to realize that you scale up the rice and tomatoes a lot but you scale up the salt only a little.

     A small scale search has an incident commander. A large scale search makes everyone realize the Incident Commander gets tired and needs sleep, that search vehicles break down and run out of gas, that tip lines become clogged, that porta-potties need emptying, etc.
391. QUESTION FOR RRR OR SARA R/ Could not find this in the report, but maybe I missed it…the Oregonian ran a photo of a form filled out by SAR who had gone down the road the Kim’s were found on. On the form they state they were unable to clear the road, but that they had seen tire tracks. What happened with that form, why were their comments not given more attention resulting in a more expedient complete check of that spur ??
392. 391- The form you saw was a “debriefing” form, it showed that that teams assignment was not complete due to the snow they had gotten stuck, that form then came back into the file, however the assignment then was moved to a “snowcat” assignment and as for prioritizing then I can’t answer that, but knowing we had 2-3 snowcats running it was on the list of roads for it to do….So lack of better words, it was on the list of roads for the snowcat and they were “getting” to it.
393. 392/how about mounting tractor treads on the Baja ? 🙂
394. 393- OH my gosh that would be pretty cool!!! and a small plow blade on front! I would be set!
395. Good evening, all.

     389 – Allen, well-stated. The value of verifiable information cannot be underestimated, as it provides confirmation that the continued or ramped up application of expensive assets is not only warranted, but headed in the right direction.
396. Sorry, no pun intended.
397. Rules or algorithms?
     In other words, rules of thumb or precise forumulas?
     Guidelines or inflexible rules?

     Tips can be categorized as ‘anonymous’ or ‘specific person’.
     Sightings can be categorized according to time/place/degree of specificity/type of oberver.

     Private resources can certainly be categorized by geography. A cave dwelling hermit who lives in the area can be difficult to deal with but he sure would be a good asset to utilize. A snowmobile owner in the area may know the local trails well. Don’t think some sheriffs haven’t contacted Pot Farmers and their Agricultural Security Guards for equipment and information as to local conditions.

     I have a nagging doubt that the Cell Phone Ping was downgraded and will forever be downgraded, no matter what guidelines for evaluation are developed.
398. 397/ The report did mention that cell phone pings have mislead searchers before, that they have liabilities in terms of accuracy…not in this case, but in others.
399. Hi Detective Mike! Good to see you here tonight.
400. Regarding various private resources and individuals:
     Clearly in this a number of them contributed substantially, but in other circumstances they could hinder things.

     For example once the search narrowed to Big Windy Ck, was there space for more a few well coordinated helicopters?

     John James had a snow machine, but there wasn’t enough snow for him to drive it to his lodge entrance, much less to the car. It wasn’t clear from the CNN trip, whether he had ever travelled that far down 34-8-36. Still, he might have been a useful passenger in the snow cat.

     A person who hasn’t trained with a SAR team, and doesn’t know the procedures and communications methods could end up getting in the way, needing to be rescued themselves, destroying clues, or taking up time of trained volunteers. It is probably easier for an official to say no to all offers of help, rather than take the time to select the potentially useful ones. In that sense, untrained volunteers are just like leads, a few valuable, many a waste of time and resources.

     paulj
401. Hi Maggie, and thanks. Figured I’d check in one or two more times to see how things were going.
402. 382/ “Alternative route to the coast/ or alternative route to safety”

     I’ve read so many accounts of their reasoning, I can’t recall which ones have been dismissed. But I thought that they were looking for an intersection w/ another road to either turn around or wait till daylight for better bearings (maybe with a passing car), got stuck in the snow once, then just waited it out at 2am., while overnight snowfall really blocked their exit.

     About retreating to the valley/I-5… I haven’t heard mention of whether lodging _was_ available. This was late Saturday night on the most traveled holiday weekend. I would think that there would be very few Vacancy signs waiting for them at any motels. (In hindsight, even huddling overnight in their car at a rainy rest stop would have been preferable.) If they were low on gas maybe they thought that it would take more gas to get back to town, with services closed, and perhaps they were not that far from GB (not).

     And part of the adventure was “going for it …forging ahead for the adventure.” That is why they chose to leave on their trip the week earlier, despite warnings of storm from family in Seattle. The GB lodge seems quite Ritzy, and a cabin there might be $200/night, and they had already confirmed their deposit and arrival twice earlier that day. Again, a gamble, along with uncertain road, gas, etc., which was not worth the price.
403. Hi Det. Mike have you had a chance to review the report?

     One thing that is now confusing me: It seemed Deputy Stanton was the appropriate person to become incident commander and was IC according to some accounts, but Sara R was the person the media and some agencies were treating as the IC. Why didn’t Stanton clear that up or does he not even agree he was the IC?
404. Well all it has been an exhausting day, I am going to call it a night, I will be back in the morning, and pretty much around on and off all day, feel free to email questions if you would like, rogueriverrat78@excite.com have a great night, and can’t wait to see what you all come up with 🙂
405. 395 Det. Mike! Must be an eventful time at your PPB office today. It has been enlightening reading of all the behind-the-scenes work done by you, while everyone else tried to puzzle this together.
406. Thanks RRR – and thanks for doing another search today!
407. I hesitate to say this, given the myriad of “theories” regarding why this family did this, or why they did that, or if they were going for the “adventure” of it, as Allen suggested.

     If I may, respectfully, offer the following idea. And this comes only from having dealt with 100’s of people who have found themselves in unfortunate situations at one point or another, and who needed help in some respect getting out of whatever predicament they had found themselves in.

     It is not a complex theory or a formula related to probabilities, signage, gas mileage, weather, or whatever other variables may come into play. It is quite simply this: people don’t think anything bad will ever happen to them. It’s the oldest theme there is – it’s always going to be the “other guy” who gets stuck, lost, etc.

     Human nature dictates that people often feel infallible. The most ironic thing is, even those of us (ok, I’ll speak for myself) who work to help these folks every single day have found ourselves in circumstances which were not necessarily unforseeable, but kind of snuck up on us all of a sudden, where we suddenly got that sinking feeling that we were in over our heads.

     Some may call it arrogance, inexperience, being adventuresome, or whatever it can be called, when, in fact, all it often is… is no thinks it will happen to them.
408. re402: “while overnight snowfall really blocked their exit.”

     They did park overnight in a location without snow apparently, it was raining when they awoke on Sunday Nov 26th. It had snowed heavily when they awoke on Monday. So it would be interesting to know how much snow there was Sunday between them and the FS23/BLM34-8-36 “Y” intersection. I wish they’d given it a shot to drive out on Sunday though. They were very determined that a ranger or snow plow or 4WD or someone would be by imminently unfortunately. Thus they may have missed their only chance to exit stage left before the snow really came down.
409. 403 – I have reviewed about 80% of the completed report (minus redundant timeline info I already had access to). Joe, was the second part directed to me or just another comment?

     405 – Actually, Allen, it was a very busy day at my office, as usual, but ironically, not related to this case (for once). Since the PPB report was released awhile back, most of the direct questions seemed to peak and then subside. And “behind the scenes” is often what we (investigators) try to be best at, especially in a SAR type event.
410. 407 – Very true, Detective Mike, very true about it always being the other guy. I try so hard so much of the time to be safe, and once in awhile I realize that I should have done something different and that I’d actually just been lucky it all worked out. Things like what happened with the Kim’s “just don’t happen”… unless they do.

     Not sure if you know or can say much about it, but I’m really curious about the whole Wilsonville Information Center first saying they did give information to the Kim’s but then saying they didn’t after Kati said they hadn’t stopped there. Any light at all you can shed? Maybe Wilsonville folks were just mistaken, and it was a different family (seems kind of unlikely, but not sure what else would explain it)?
411. 410 – I didn’t have any direct contact with them, so I can’t say much other than it was my understanding that someone there felt he/she had had contact with this particular family. I don’t know why the information/story later changed, if it did.

     I don’t know if they were really there or not, but I have no reason to doubt Kati’s statements.
412. I can say I was quite surprised to hear Kati did not recall having stopped there. But then again, I should not be surprised by people thinking they have seen or had contact with missing persons who might not really have – there were a number of people who swore they’d seen and talked with the Kims, in places there was no possible way they could have been. This particular tip just seemed quite plausible, given the totality of the circumstances at the time it was first received.
413. 407/ Det. Mike,
     I’ve intended to also get this similar feeling down in words… you beat me to it. For this family, having successful careers, education, growing kids, 2 businesses, large network of friends and access to latest tech gear, must develop a sense of self-affirming positivism and momentum, carrying you along as you live life to its fullest, enjoying challenge and yes, taking risks. You don’t necessarily stop at each each junction to consider all alternatives. You forge ahead, meeting life head-on, without hesitation or indecision. Many folks have this attitude and lifestyle and you can be very successful at it, until an unplanned incident or snowy road in the mountains slows you down.
414. The OSSA report emphasizes over and over the huge number of square miles of the search area. Seems to me a camouflaging of the reality. The Kims were traveling in a car on a road presumably appearing to them to be reasonably well traveled. Roseburg to Gold Beach. It was a one dimensional search problem, road distance, not square miles area that fitted their situation. They were not hiking overland or flying across SW Oregon. They were driving and there are only a limited number of roads that fit, BLM 34-8-36 included. Instead of throwing out those mind boggling square mile numbers why not just say it as it really was. There was xyz miles of road to search.
415. 408/Dee,

     Part III, p. 22
     “On Thanksgiving Day, which was two days before the Kim Family had supposedly gotten lost, STANTON drove out Bear Camp Road. STANTON was there just for his own curiosity to check snow levels: people always get hung up out there. He got all the way to mile post 20 before he got stuck. STANTON said snow on the road was visible at about mile mark five. (There are no official mile markers on this road; searchers are using odometer readings to mark location and distance.)
     Past the road that led to the Black Bar Lodge, there was already approximately six inches of snow. After Thanksgiving it snowed some more. When he and RUBRECHT arrived at the road to Black Bar Lodge on December 1, 2006, the only thing they saw were snowmobile tracks.”
416. 413 – I would agree mostly, Allen, but I didn’t even mean it quite that way. I simply meant people live their lives, regardless of attitude or endeavor, not believing anything will befall them. It doesn’t even have to be cavalier or momentum, maybe just tired people who wanted to get to their destination and put their kids to bed.
417. 414 – I see your point, Kip, but would ask that you consider the following, as I don’t believe anyone put out that information to overstate the situation or impress anyone. If there’s one thing that can be learned from past incidents, it’s that anything can happen. True, their car would likely not be 30 miles from any road in the middle of the winderness.

     However, a vehicle that goes over a cliff can end up nowhere near the roadway, a vehicle that goes into a swollen river (as they were at the time) can be carried a considerable distance downstream, or can be covered to the point of not being detected for months, when waters subside, absent any evidence of a crash (true story). Additionally, people do some strange things when they’re stranded, such as leaving their wrecked (and hidden by brush, etc.) vehicles… and wander into the wilderness, which puts them directly in the middle of that “unlikely they’d be here in the vast square mileage” scenario. Just some thoughts regarding real-life scenarios. The square mileage estimates they used were accurate and appropriate.
418. 416 – I agree, Det Mike. Even reading in the OSSA report, I can follow the thinking – “OK, we’ll stop here, it looks like a visible location, people come through here, we’ll be found in the morning.” In a million years most people wouldn’t think that it would end the tragic way it did. If it was me in that spot the first night, I’d have probably made some joke about the car not being quite the nice room I’d had in mind and laughed about what a detour story I’d have to tell once we were all rescued. It would not occur to me that it could possibly turn into what it did. I think that’s fairly natural and explains the “shock” that people feel when something horrible actually happens to them – every house fire, bad accident, etc. people say the same thing on the news, that they just couldn’t believe it happened to them.
419. I’ve got to close down the office now. Does anyone have a clock? Bye to all …Joe, Det. Mike and others.
420. 417 – Det Mike, that’s a good point. The OSSA does say that something along the lines of a car accident was the most likely. I keep forgetting that it really could have been that or something else – hindsight, I guess, keeps me from thinking of those possibilities.
421. Bye folks, I’m off to sleep soon…
422. 418 – Maggie, I’d probably have been thinking the same thing re: joking about car not being what I had in mind for the night and what a story it would be….and there, but for the grace….

     Have a good night. Time to get ready for the ‘morrow.
423. “When he and RUBRECHT arrived at the road to Black Bar Lodge on December 1, 2006, the only thing they saw were snowmobile tracks.”

     I wonder if those tracks obscured that passenger car tracks that the John James saw? In an ironic sense they may have spoiled the very clue that they were trying to pass on verbally. In retrospect the official searchers should have listened to him, but they might have taken the clue more seriously if they had seen it for themselves.

     Stanton’s tracks from a few days earlier might have lead James Kim to think that FS23 was passable. I don’t recall whether Kati mentioned seeing tracks up that road.

     paulj
424. 287 – Why did they mention John James calling his brother prior to their interview? The omly reason I can think of is that they wanted it to be known that they could have agreed on the story they told. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MYSELF – Just that the report makes it appear that way. The other parts about JJ weren’t very flattering either.

     Parts of the report, like I mentioned way back in 265 and 267, raise questions about this report. Overall, many questions I have had have been answered. The report though leaves me feeling that it is not as objective as it could be.
425. 424 – All based on the initial reading of the report, which I spent about 2 hours, or so, reading. If I read it again, I might find things I missed.
426. Daylight premium and Mutual Aid: Perhaps the solution is to call for “troops” and billet them somewhere and then truck/carpool them to the search CP. It would mean extra time away from their families but it would probably be easier on them and maximize their use during daylight to take over some remote motel or resort but get the manpower to the location and available during all daylight hours.

     I’m reminded of world war two generals trucks: plenty of maps table areas but also sleeping quarters. Maybe the SAR people should concentrate on self sufficiency in the search area.

     Would someone be able to calculate the following for me:
     WHEN was it first known they were most probably destined for the TuTu Lodge? How many ways to arrive there were possible? How many miles from the lodge were they found? How many hours did it take to find someone who was ‘x’ miles from their known destination when there are only a few roads that could be taken?
427. Restraint.

     Sometimes restraint is critical. A doctor’s ‘first, do no wrong’ is the rule that prevents the desire to not stand there but to do something result in doing something wrong.

     A corpse is discovered under a pile of trash near dusk and the cops simply rope off the scene and await daylight.

     Its hard to know just when doing nothing is best. Staying near the “heavily travelled” road won’t help much when its not heavily travelled at all but getting further from it will help even less. They knew they were either on or near a coastal route and seeking shelter from the snow on what may have been a non-coastal route had disadvantages particularly if they travelled far on it and yet did not reach safety.

     It was hard to say ‘we stay here and get snowed in’ but know that we are at or near “The Road” rather than treking on and dealing with the unknown paths.
428. As someone who has thought from the beginning that they took the right side of the fork completely by mistake (thinking it was indeed the main road), it is now obvious that I was wrong.

     It’s still not clear why they chose to go down that road (beyond the stated “to get below the snow”), but I tend to agree with those who think that perhaps they thought it would lead them to the coast (or at least to some form of civilization).
429. QUESTION FOR Locals: How easy is it to stay on 38-4-36 once you are in the BLM maze? Are all the side spurs gated such that you have no choice but to stay on 38-4-36? Are there signs to follow to stay on 38-4-36 rather than taking a spur or a fork?
430. That ‘perhaps’ to the coast and/or civilization was probably based more on hope or desperation than any evidence or reasonable expectation.

     They only needed ONE hamlet or ONE gas station or rural inn. Even a seasonally abandoned cabin without supplies would have saved them by providing shelter and firewood.
431. 428 – RodneyG

     Kati did mention that they expected a plow or Park Ranger or someone would be coming that way soon.
432. 429 – That has been my question from the beginning. I’m disappointed that no one knows or cares to answer it.
433. Good morning all! Interesting reading this morning. I have several comments to make, but it will have to be after I get my daughter ready for school.
     In regards to 414, Kip…I see what you are saying about square miles, that does seem a bit uninteresting. In the “Bear Camp Area” alone, there are approximately 473 road miles (FS and BLM). FS reported approximately 160 spur roads alone, not counting BLM road spurs, which they were ultimately found on. Kip, is that the type of information that you would have rather seen as a description for search area? I have not asked about the Glendale/Powers/Eden Valley area that we spent much of Monday searching. This is the same area that the Stivers/Higgenbothems were found in earlier last year. Most of the cell phone “ping” possibilities were located on that north side of the river.
     As for the comment about the report being objective, I can only tell you that from my perspective, it was more objective that I thought it would be. I was pleased with that. Remember, I was the one who begged for this review. I knew that the report would reveal things that could be improved, and things that I can definitely improve upon. I told you all once before that I am perfectly ok with being held accountable, even criticized for those actions. I just wanted to make sure that the correct “laundry list” was the one being scrutinized. I hope that makes sense. (I also wish that I could write as elequently as Det. Mike!)
434. QUESTION FOR Locals: How far back (miles and time) from “the fork” was it to the last sign of civilization they would have passed? Town? Building with a sign of life? Mailbox?

     They called (well, attempted to call) 911 from the fork. I know it doesn’t help and doesn’t make a difference, I’m just trying to make sense of how they call 911, but then don’t go back the way they came. If they’d already been through miles/hours of driving hell (since last civilization) just to get to the fork, it makes it much easier to understand.
435. 432 – Maybe it would help if I shared more photos? I do have photos all the way past the locked BLM gate to the vehicle destination. I have now been able to put them all in order with better description. We were careful to take photos of EVERY sign and EVERY intersection along the way. I can work on posting those today and hopefully that will answer this question?
     Yes, for those of you that had not figured it out, RRR and I were the photo takers…
436. 434 – RodneyG, last civilization would have depended on which route they took. If they took Peavine, the last sign of civilization would have been about 2 miles up that detour. If they took 34-8-36 the entire way, the last residence is at the intersection of Chrome Ridge Rd., just about 3 miles from Merlin Galice Rd. The snow plow belongs to a private logger in the area, I heard that seeing this may have contributed to the false sense of civilization.
437. Thanks jocosar. So according to these directions:
     http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=42.57508,-123.750343&daddr=42.550567,-123.625824&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.751524,81.738281&ie=UTF8&z=13&om=1
     they would have had to backtrack 10 miles (on what looks like a fairly hairy road) to get to Chrome Ridge Rd, just to get to the first sign of civilization. I’m not clear on the Peavine route, but it sounds like a similar backtrack on that route. Thanks again.
438. 435 – Thank you, JoCo – I’d really like to see those pictures! I didn’t know that there were any that go all the way to the place where the Kim’s stopped.

     I’m still reading through the rest of the report (after a quick scan through yesterday afternoon), but so far, it has seemed pretty objective to me.
439. Rodney, I am not sure that I understood your question. Maggie has a great map made of the Peavine route. If you click on her name, she has it posted on her site. Regardless, from the intersection backtracking the way that they came, it would have been at least 10 miles to the nearest residence.
     Maggie, we have those photos that we took on Jan 1 on our own time. The conditions were much different than when the Kim’s were up there, but it will give you a good idea still. I didn’t want to share them earlier, as the report was ongoing. I think I can share them now. I will try to get to that today. It gives an interesting perspective for sure! I learned quite a bit the day I drove down there!!
440. I didn’t say it was not objective, but rather that it appeared to be in some parts. At least that is what I meant. I do hope it will help improve future searches. I’m glad they did the report.
441. 435 jocosar – I hope you can post those photos.
442. 440 – What I noticed in the report was a distinct difference in writing styles and interpretations between interviewers. I suppose that is what happens when you involve so many different officials in the investigation. There was one author who tried to pull all of the information together, but each interview was by a group of very different people. I found that to be the most interesting. It would have been nice if the same person interviewed all of us, but we know that would have taken entirely too long. I would have only liked to have seen the same types of questioning and then interpretation for all of the interviews. When I read the full interview transcripts (not included in the report), the different syles are much more evident. Just an interesting observation. I have never been “interrogated” before, so this was a brand new experience for me. I hope that I never have to go through it again, that’s for sure!

     As far as improvements go, I think it is important to note, that we didn’t wait for this report to be released to start making improvements. Those have already started. Yesterday’s search was a great opportunity for us. It was also a strange psychological dynamic. I would imagine the willingness to respond was due, at least in part, to the heightened awareness level at the moment, but I hope that continues. This reporting process has really worn on the volunteers. It was nice to see them out working again and determined to succeed. I have said before that these volunteers are absolutely amazing. I am very lucky to work with them.
443. Good Morning Blog…..Sara I see you beat me this morning…
444. 443 – It’s that school bus thing! I didn’t want to be up this early!
445. Well the oregonian seemed somewhat painless this morning in their story…
446. #439 jocosar, you understood me fine. Thanks. Knowing it was over 10 miles back to any kind of civilization helps to understand their choices, especially when I read in the report: “Kati was certain that they were going to be headed down the coastal side of the range any minute”.

     Also hoping to see those photos all the way out to the car location. Thanks in advance.
447. Nice PICTURE they have on the page there…..Credited to the OSSA
448. Important note!!!! James Kim NEVER ate Bear poop!!! Just an fyi.
449. 448 I don’t understand what the big thing about bear poop is? I know they have been al lover the radio this am retracting that statement. Sorry, but if it will keep you alive!?!?! And hey isn’t the most expensive coffee in the world found in cat poop…..

     “Kopi Luwak or Civet coffee is coffee made from coffee cherries which have been eaten by and passed through the digestive tract of the Common Palm Civet Kopi Luwak is the most expensive coffee in the world, selling up to $600 USD per pound, and is sold mainly in Japan and United States,”

     Bet you won’t find that at Dutch Bro! 😉
450. Laurie!!

     that is so funny, not 20 minutes ago I just finished reading this in the chicago tribune!!

     http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0701180053jan18,1,5831475.column?coll=chi-leisurebooks-hed

     its about the ahem…coffee.
451. Question for jocosar or other LE person:

     I see several deputies’ status is noted as “contract deputy with BLM.” I take it that means that this deputy is a JoCo officer whose primary responsibility is patrolling BLM territory, and that BLM picks up the budget for the position? Or is it a BLM employee seconded to the Sherrif’s department? Or something else?

     No biggie, just curious.

     Thanks for easing our minds re: the bear poop 🙂
452. Hello Blog
     John James here.
     I said I would come back after the report came out so I did.
     I haven’t read the report line for line but scanned it pretty thoroughly.
     As I have stated from the beginning, I never questioned the efforts the SAR volunteers were putting forth or even the management of the search. I don’t feel that is my place, as I am not a SAR expert. I only was going to address my interaction with Sara R, and Stanton.

     In regards to my interview with Detectives representing OSSA, It lasted well over an hour.
     If you read the interviews in section III you will see that that length of conversation was condensed to something that takes 5 minutes to read. There are a couple of small discrepancies as far as exactly what was told to the interviewers, but remember that they had to condense everything into a shorter narrative for the report.

     One statement I want to make is that at the time of my interview with the Detectives, they were not even aware that my brother Denny was even ever involved in the search.
     I gave them his name and contact info so they could get his story.
     They indicated they would probably contact him at work.
     That is when I asked them if they minded if I called him and gave him a heads up. I felt that he didn’t need the surprise at work of a couple of “cops” asking for him.
     I stated that I would not discuss my interview with them so they could get an accurate account from him. They thanked me for that and said they would probably visit him the next day.
     I need to say that I feel I was clear, concise, and complete in my statements to the Detectives. They did edit out items that either they felt were irrelevent or repetitive in the published report.

     I stand behind all statements I have made in the report or in the press or on this site.

     Having read the report it sounds as though SAR and LE were in and out of My place multiple times. Just for point of fact LE never told me this and when I asked and offered a key they said they didn’t need it and weren’t driving in anyway. That obviously turned out to be untrue.

     To clarify where I interacted with Stanton and Sara R., It was aprroximately at the 17.5 mile mark on BC23 about 3.5 miles from the fork with the 34-8-36 which is the 14 mile mark. Stanton stated in his interview they met us at the 14 which is the fork, That is wrong. If we would have met them there I could have pointed down the 34-8-36 and said “we were only able to check that road about a mile before we ran out of snow”.
     One other correction is that Stanton stated that when he met us we were looking for a place to turn around. Actually we were going to back into a spot so we could unload the sleds and go out BC23 further to where I knew the snow would stop anyone from going further in a car. We stated this to Stanton and Sara R. We were still actively searching not headed home as it is implied. We only left the area when told that they had it handled.

     To address one other item, regarding the tracks out the 34-8-36. Snowmobile tracks and automobile tracks look radically different and I would hope a trained professional could distinguish the difference. We put great effort into not overiding the car tracks so as not to disturb them.
     In closing I beleive the summary in section I and II is a little “sugarcoated” but that is not my problem.
     I ask that you read the individual interviews and summarize yourself.
     I do know that SAR and LE had the chance to ask for local expert advice from me and chose not to. Maybe they felt that I was a “nuisance” as someone stated LE may have considered me. I can understand them not thinking of contacting me if we had never interacted, but we did. It also should have been obvious that I was interested in helping or my brother and I wouldn’t have been the very first people looking in that vicinity.
     I guess the lesson to be learned is that SAR and LE should engage the local public and not be territorial.
     I have learned through this negative experience that if I ever choose to go and search again, I won’t be talked out of continuing on my own by the authorities.
     Sorry for the long oratory but I don’t do well at the back and forth Blog thing.
     If any other questions arise after this I will try to get back here one last time in the evening when I can maybe answer your questions directly.
     Best regards,
     John
453. 451-Tommo, your account of how the BLM deputy works is correct. Stanton is a SO employee whose wages are paid for by BLM.
454. John James, thank you for your commentary and your effort in this entire story. I hope one day I can visit your lodge, shake your hand, and buy you a beer.
455. Mobility extenders:

     Some cops ride around on electric bicycles that give them a speed boost on hills but still gives them exercise for most of their shift. Some police cars have bike racks on the rear and are used in such things as jaywalking patrols or crowd control and beach patrols.

     Now I don’t know if Oregon SAR might benefit from something like this but perhaps teams are needed that can handle a snow-line transition. It seems that sending out a well equipped team would be more efficient than sending out ill-equipped teams and then engaging in some sort of eventual follow up of how far they made it and what has to be done. Does a search team that makes it two/thirds of the way leave a marker or obtain GPS coordinates or something?
456. http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6151398.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-20&subj=news

     Just posted. Kati Kim describes harrowing week lost in woods.
457. Fool’s Gold, re: moving away from the road, when I first heard they’d gone down a side road I thought “they were thinking like city people.” Written down this seems more judgemental than I mean; hey, roads go somewhere, right? And the Kims wanted to go somewhere… and it didn’t occur to them that they were going nowhere. Roads didn’t just go to the middle of nowhere in their world.

     Det. Mike’s observation that people tend to envision good outcomes also applies.

     I wonder if “CLOSED IN WINTER” would send a more specific message than “NO OUTLET” on these roads? A road without an outlet might still get plowed. Maybe “ROAD GOES NOWHERE” would do it…
458. (452) John thanks for coming back and posting. The clarification is helpful.

     One question I have. If you talked to Stanton and Rubrecht how come you went to the press with only criticism about Rubrecht?

     I was a little surprised that we learned in the report that you actually talked to both and were on Stanton’s side of the vehicle – to me that would mean that you were more directly talking to Stanton, curious as the reason Stanton has been left largely out of this discussion until now?

     Thanks for your time and response on this.
459. Interesting excerpt from latest CNET article…

     “A gas station attendant in Merlin, Ore., gave James Kim “strange directions” and never indicated that the route could be dangerous, Kati Kim said in the report. As they made their way up Bear Camp Road, a snowplow parked near the road made the Kims believe that the road was maintained. Road signs told them that they were headed toward the coast.”
460. Glenn.

     That is all in the report too actually.

     It is interesting, I wonder if that person understand the role he/she played in this and is just very reluctant to step forward.
461. Popping in for just a sec – here is the link to this morning’s Oregonian article:

     http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1169180736240520.xml&coll=7

     Now back to work – the snow days caught up with me.
462. 461 – Just noticed that the Oregonian actually has a two-part set of articles. The link above from Kati’s perspective, and the other about the search here:

     http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1169182511299320.xml&coll=7

     All of both are mostly just a re-cap of the OSSA report, not much new information.
463. Glenn and Mapper re: Merlin Gas. I’ll be passing there next week and will try to drop in and ask a few questions. It’s too bad – in fact strange – that whoever gave those directions did not react to any of the coverage about the missing family. It does not seem like a big stretch to make that connection.

     One of the focuses in Oregon tourism has been to give “hospitality training” to for gas station attendants, waitresses, and other front line workers in tourism so they can give better travel information.
464. Joe,

     wow, I didn’t know about the hospitality training! Thats kinda cool.

     Yeah, it doesn’t sound good for the person who gave the “strange directions” the way it is written it almost sounds like the person sent them away almost…maliciously. I am betting that is not the case, it just doesn’t sound good, and even worse that they haven’t stepped foward.

     but, if it were innocent, they could just be embarassed…though it would have been good info at the time the search began!
465. though knowing the roads, what seemed like “strange” directions at the time may actualy been pretty accurate…..
466. Laurie

     Thats true. It would be good to get an account of what that person actually said! It could have been anything I guess. The report just makes it sound so wierd. But it did say that the person gave no indication of danger.

     I also think, a normal person would have come forward with a tip (unless they missed the coverage which is possible).

     I’m not one to speculate much or point a finger, this part just has me quite curious, though I dont feel its something I need to know to sleep at night either!
467. (465) Laurie, probably true but nobody should be given directions on those roads…period. Seems reckless to me especially given the history of those roads and time of year.
468. A few items remain:

     Why if the TuTu Ton Lodge was a known destination with even a ‘leave the key out’ call was the search so slow in focusing on roads to the TuTu Ton Lodge?

     Why if a guy calls and says ‘I’m a cell phone engineer, I think I might be able to help’ is there such a delay before he gets the cell phone numbers he should be looking for?

     Why if private jets were being flown in were they flying in passengers but not FLIR equipment or night vision goggles or (whatever) was really needed? I think the SAR people would have liked a portable cell tower in the area and a whole lot of cell phones for their search teams. Or perhaps SAR would have wanted more radios or more snowmobiles. “Father is very rich” but he didn’t seem to know what was really wanted or needed.

     Why was ONG placing itself on hold due to reports of helicopter activity. It seems that a flight to the area would have been better and then settle the issue of air space cooperation upon arrival.

     What are the critical points in the whole case?
     Delay in filing Missing Persons Report despite abrupt cessation of contact with friends that persisted unnoticed.

     Miscommunication about ‘Bear Camp Rd’ and its “likely” mistake areas.

     Denny’s in Roseburg as last known contact was a great help particularly once it was confirmed (waitress, credit card?) but one wonders about this ‘Mapquest’ stuff. Perhaps Mapquest was used but there does not seem to have been a sufficient basis to assume that. Was it just because he is a ‘techie type’ and so might have used mapquest?
469. Can someone find out for me if a jet could have made a high altitude fly by and photographed wide swaths of the area for later detailed analysis? Would the car have been spotted? I sure didn’t see the car in even the low altitude photo. I just wonder if the wealthy parents could have thrown their dollars at the problem in a better manner?
470. (469) Fools Gold interesting points…

     A nice interactive map with the datapoints plugged in including last known contact, credit card use, gas fill, cellular towers, destination, etc…could provide a good interactive tool to layout a path people may have taken and where they may have ended up.

     The point of the cellular tower locations would give LE and SAR the information to direct a data search by the telco. The search could be both by phone number and tower id.

     They may do this currently on large plotted maps but I think the interactive elements of a digital map will provide faster distribution, what if analysis, etc…

     Maybe JoCoSAR can give us some insight to how they currently use maps in a search.
471. (469) Fools Gold from what I understand the trees almost have a canopy effect and unless you are directly over the vehicle you probably won’t have a chance to see it.

     However from the ground you may think you are in a clearing.

     Similar to what happens in narrow canyons in the desert.
472. QUESTION for Sara R or RRR: Before the report was released you were intent on getting a photo of the car in the clearing for a purpose you could not then state. Could you fill us in now?
473. In accounts (for example in the Finley case) in the Curry Co newspaper I saw mention of a Cougar Lane general store in Agness. They made it sound as though that was a good place to stop and get information on the road, and to call for help.

     I have not seen information about a similar place on the Merlin/Galice side. I suspect that asking a clerk in Merlin on a Saturday night about the road to Agness could be a hit or miss situation. The clerk may be someone who just drove up there the day before, or someone who has never driven the road. I have had mixed results when asking locally in British Columbia about the state of certain backroads.

     I also agree that the strange answer could have been an accurate, but confusing list of BLM and FS road names (or local names).

     In the report, Kati commented on how they couldn’t make sense of the road numbers where they stopped. The report includes a picture of one post, with 33-… on it (the one with open gate?). It might be too much to expect BLM to revise their road labeling system, though FS did just that around 1990.

     paulj
474. Fools Gold: RE: Mapquest – Unless I missed something in the report I think it was established early on that Mapquest was NOT used by the Kims for directions up there – nor were any online mapping services used.

     RE: High altitude pix – I do not know if it would have spotted James, but a satellite was retasked to fly the area.

     I do think that SAR procedure should consider pilot projects where they use Google earth to coordinate “volunteer” help with maps and perhaps as a tool to mark roads as searched. e.g. the debriefings could be done via an online report form that would automatically plot the search data on an online, real time Google map. This is not nearly as complicated as it sounds thanks to mapping mashups.
475. (474) Joe, I was thinking on the same lines and the mashup should include all the cell towers, last contact points, destination points, etc…
476. 333 – I think as noted before the part before Kati and the girls were located was more generally a missing persons investigation. We were able to help out in a role of tip generation and flyering routes – and I’ll try to elaborate more, we probably could have helped even more had we some direction from either PDX of SFPD on what we should have been doing (for example we just went ahead and made our own PDFs when we realized the SFPD MP page wasn’t being updated with new information like the Roseburg sighting). Once Kati and girls were found, our feeling of being able to directly assist dropped considerably because at that point it turned to SAR. Our role at that point became more media oriented and towards a public facing role as a place to come for information/sharing with the family – still vital roles for this situation but much different than we had been doing.

     350 – The Port Orford gas station tip was definitely one that drained resources to another area. Our volunteers went back for a second interview with her, and also stopped around town to ask about things. Her story was convincing, although had many discrepancies (like gas tank on wrong side of car if they were pulled in like she said). Someone at a bar in town told our volunteers that she is a drama queen and don’t believe a word she says. Part of the point here is that the more volunteers you can have in a missing persons investigation to have one-on-one talks with more people in the search area the more information you can gather (of course you need the ability to process it all too). There were *many* instances continuing through Saturday and Sunday where people at stores/churches/restaurants/etc had not yet heard about the story. It was a big news story if you were following it, but we had to keep remembering not everyone watches CNN all day or read’s JoeDuck’s blog. 😉

     363 – What portion of homeland security funds end up in the hands of SAR type work? I’d be very interested in finding out if there are dual-purpose HS projects that can actually benefit our citizens, as it seems like Grants Pass for example isn’t a prime target for terrorism, but could easily be more prepared for terrorism via EM and SAR training at the same time.

     389 – Roseburg Denny’s was extremely important to friends/family in that it cut nearly in half the search area. It reduced the area our volunteers needed to work to try and generate that next tip we were looking for.

     407 – Mike, totally agree. I know for a lot of folks on a long road trip the idea of going backwards often also just doesn’t seem like an option. When I 18 I used to drive when I was tired enough to be dozing off, it wasn’t until I was a few years older that I stopped that risky behavior. Even now I was going to a friends ranch in Shasta area on Nov. 11th this year, in a Toyota Prius, not your typical backroads vehicle. We came upon snow – and had to make a decision to keep going or turn back. We kept going. We were in a very well marked road/area, so slightly different but I know the thought process that was going on and it wasn’t a cut and dry decision in their heads at that time.
477. There is a short section toward the end of part II about:

     Management of spontaneous and self-dispatched volunteers”

     The recommendation boils down to set up communications channels for volunteers like this, whether it be a designated liaison officer or issuing radios.

     paulj
478. 469 – We were offered at one point use of software designed for HS/SAR which does a color match from an aerial photograph to a picture of the clothing someone is wearing. The software was at http://www.zplease.com. It may have come from other sources in the SAR hierarchy, but partially I believe the order to retrieve the laptops from the car on the morning of 12/5 could have come from this tip coming into the website/email. I received this info at 7:20am on 12/5 and immediately notified the Kim family and forwarded the information, realizing that if there were pictures from the family vacation this could yield a very viable search vector. Some of the interviews note that orders to get the laptops on the morning of 12/5.
479. 470 – I don’t know if it would be appropriate to release publicly but if any of the LE or SAR folks here are interested I can try to get the Google Earth data we stored during our efforts in SF. We have several different layers of possible routes, cell tower information and other data we were pulling into google earth. Our friends working on the google earth stuff kept blowing my mind when within 1-2 hours after firm confirmation of the cell tower ping we had cell phone towers mapped into GE, with 26mi radius shading going on, correlated with FCC records of who is the technical owner of those towers. There is some *really* powerful information available out there to someone who is skilled or adept at GE. If there are SAR folks out there who are interested in more detail – maybe we can setup a meeting with the Google Earth team and discuss ways Google (and maybe Yahoo/Microsoft) can offer these tools to the SAR community in a more meaningful way (with training, tips, etc.).
480. Glenn,

     just an aside. I liked the map that joco gis put together, it was a huge file. But it looks like they have a very good gis department and maps were (or could have been)utilized just fine, to me by the sar. The maps are digitial.

     Really, the only thing that stood out to me, that was confirmed, was that they should have brought eric in overnight, and the gis people should have been called in too (if they were not).

     its easier to understand though now too, seeing as how many tips come in, its not always clear if the next tip will be as bogus as the last.

     it must be hard for detectives and sar to keep their optimism at times.

     As a gis professional I get uncomfortable with all the talk of coordinates and google earth that people throw around. Its a great resource…for volunteers. I know the gis guy at joco feels similiarly after talking to him here a bit.

     did you read the section on coordinates in the report? this is the kind of thing that needs to be clear if volunteers are going to be gpsing, and using coordinates, and google earth alot. Coordinates are not always coordinates.

     I dont want to get into a discussion on google earth and gis, so….naturally, if I dont comment much on it, that is why.
481. 472- Sara was the one on the hunt for that picture, It was for the investigation, as to why she needed it I can’t personally answer that one….
482. Maps- (wow you all talk alot about maps!) as for how we use them.

     1. we have a master map with the search area dwindled down to this we plot points of interest on, such as clues found, areas completed, last known points and so on

     2. we give each search group who goes out in the field a map of the area they are to search, so it might be a smaller scaled map from the master covering just the area they are to search, or it could still be a big map, but the key is that we show “their” area they are assigned to on it.

     3. We also use the maps to plan for assignments, look at terrian as to what is the “natural controur” that someone might follow, or obsticales that one might not be able to go over, are there main roads they may have hitch hiked on ect.
483. JoCoSAR or RRR – was the idea to search *every mile* of all those spur roads north of Bear Camp road or are there some that can be immediately eliminated as impassable or gated or ?
484. 483- of course the goal is to always search every mile of the spur roads, again you can look at a map and say you are going to look down road #A and when searchers get there it is washed out and unpassable, so it is noted, and they carry on, if it is something that could be passed on foot then we ask that they do that.

     As of now there are areas that we know we can eliminate right off such as Galice Crk Rd we can eliminate that someone is stuck between the gate and the slide, HOWEVER if they were on the way down, they could on the the other side of the slide but we would have to access it from the top
485. Glenn, joeduck, et al> that website with the clothing color match software sounds really interesting. that has HUGE possiblities to help in future SAR events. Perhaps if someone on say an online help forum was really trained in the use of the software, that could be a great online resource/help for SAR. easily used online, from a distance, frees up search coordinators, etc…

     If the online volunteers were extensively trained it would increase the confidence of SAR coordinators AND the software wouldnt have to be painstaking explained to someone who had never used it before. just a thought.
486. \If there are SAR folks out there who are interested in more detail – maybe we can setup a meeting with the Google Earth team and discuss ways Google (and maybe Yahoo/Microsoft) can offer these tools to the SAR community in a more meaningful way (with training, tips, etc.)

     Scott this sounds great, especially since you have the Google contacts already.

     I have the idea from some of the mapping professionals here that they have reservations about using Google maps for this stuff though I don’t understand why.

     I’m wondering if the best approach for great potential SAR innovations is to try them in other cases, refine them, and then demo to SAR.
487. RRR – thanks, that makes sense!

     Tara – yes, I think that is a neat idea and good example of how distant people could be helping out and easing the burden on local efforts.

     Since SAR and Missing Persons LE have well established procedures I wonder if our newfangled ideas need to be tested outside of any formal SAR projects – sort of in parallel to a search effort. Also, the Kim search brought a level of interest almost unprecedented in US history. I’m wondering how many will help find others, though I think the number gets very high as soon as it hits the national news.
488. 463- Most likely it was the shell just off the I-5 ramp there in merlin Joe, I usually see elderly men working, sometimes some high school students. Good Luck Joe!
489. Joe, remember the missing ranch california man? has anyone offered that software to search those foothil? or has he been found?
490. Joe, Do you know if anybody at this time is working on better signs or 1/2 gate at the bottom of Galice rd? Bob
491. Hi! When I was reading through the Report, I found myself asking a lot of “Whys?” There was a lot of confusion in so many different aspects of the search. I have taken quotes from the report which really stood out to me as problematic areas which are difficult to understand and which seem need to be resolved in order to have searches run more efficiently in the future in JoCo, but also in any other counties that have similar SAR situations.

     I can honestly say I would be listing these quotes and these questions whether or not we had any SAR personnel here. We are fortunate to have jocosar and RRR here to answer any of these questions if they like, but also other people can feel free to as Joe likes to say “chime in”, about any of it.

     I will start chronologically, with questions generated from the beginning of the search. I will just be listing the information that stood out as important to look at.
492. Joe…

     its hard to explain. I have less reservations about groups like this using it, or other volunteer groups. The volunteer thing is mostly fine as long as people dont get too crazy with using coordinates from different sources without really knowing what they are doing.

     But google earth isn’t new to us. Its a great resource, as I keep saying. But agencies already, for the most part have established gis programs and centrally located data and access to certain trustworthy individuals for updates, permissions, etc. Its been hard enough for most agencies to integrate gis into workflow with, for instance sar. Training them with a new software would….fragment what is already in place.

     we need no more fragmentation…

     but there is more than just that. Maybe rocket will step in and help me out…

     its not that I think everyone who has not studied gis for 10 years is a bumbling idiot with a gps and mapping software. But, we have learned something….

     I have more of a problem with people who dont know, trying to push google earth off on agencies that already have programs in place, that the average person has no understanding of….and google earth comes a long and its the first a lot of people have seen of this kind of thing….and they have no idea what has already been happening for years within agencies with gis.

     Volunteers? fine with me, have at it. But be aware most established agencies already have programs and thousands of dollars invested, in their own mapping software and professionals…that are not always being utitlzed due to communication within that agency. I get annoyed with the communication thing the most…
493. 492- My understanding from our map guys and my father who worked closing with the GIS guys is that Google’s info is FROM our GIS guys…..
494. Question Jocosar: Is this confusion and lack of definition going to change? Why/how is it this disorganized?

     “The interview began with RUBRECHT describing how Josephine County SAR works. There is no actual leader, but rather an executive board of eight members.”

     “RUBRECHT had difficulty describing who is actually the supervisor of the SAR program.”

     “RUBRECHT has not had a performance review for over three years. She does not know what her job expectations are and she does not know what her supervisors expect.”

     “She said she is on call 365, 24/7. She said she triages the SAR calls and looks to find a SAR deputy to be incident commander. If unavailable, she does it. She also
     coordinates resources. Once she arrives on the scene, everyone else leaves. If a deputy is not available, she coordinates everything, all encompassing. Nobody has ever explained it to her.”

     “RUBRECHT runs day to day search and rescue operations. In a search, there is no written policy as to who is the incident commander. She thinks that she is responsible for coordinating SAR in Josephine County. If she is unable to, she would call Brian ANDERSON. She said it would not be unusual for him to take over a Search and Rescue operation.”
495. When I first looked at Google Earth in this case I was pleasantly surprised that the image detail was comparable to what I see in urban areas. But it was just Josephine Co. that had this high detail. The credits at the bottom of the image include Josephine Co GIS.

     Jackson may now be high resolution too, but last I checked, Curry is not.

     paulj
496. Mapper 492 – thanks, helps me understand the issues in play.

     A challenge for online help seems to be that mapping is assigned a very high priority already in SAR and a lot of resources go to maps. However not clear to me if SAR focuses much on the online mapping world which has become one of the key innovation spots online.
497. Glenn 470 Interactive Map,

     I think such an interactive map would be a great way of having a new Incident Commander or a new shift at the command post come up to speed fast. Even before it got to specific search areas, in just sending notification to a county agency, such a map would depict at a glance: Intended Destination, Recent Credit card use (food), Recent Credit Card use (gas), possible cell tower1, Possible cell tower2. A great way of narrowing the area quickly.
     And it forms the basis of a release to the media too.

     A lot of time is wasted in repeating the same information over and over as responsibility shifts.
498. JoCoSAR

     I thought SAR operates 24/7 until the incident concludes.

     “Had we met through the night we could have had searchers on the ground five hours sooner,” said Sara Rubrecht, Josephine County emergency manager and search and rescue coordinator. “If key people running the search met all night Saturday night they wouldn’t have been available Sunday to run the search when searchers were out in the field. Due to a lack of depth of personnel that would have been the only problem we would have seen with having that meeting overnight.” Mail Tribune

     Who ran the JoCo SAR night-shift on Saturday night? Could they have handled this cell phone information by calling in Fuqua and preparing a draft plan to implement the next day’s search? Do your normal searches have a night-shift deputy or someone in charge, who can make decisions?

     When was a copy of the cell phone information given to Carson Aviation or Mr. Kim? I don’t believe they received it until late Sunday afternoon.

     I thought one key underreported part of the OSSA report was that the most likely circumstance was:

     “They might have been the victims of a car crash where their vehicle left the roadway and off into brush, a ravine or into a body of water where it was not easily seen by other motorists or searchers. This was by far the most likely scenario.”
499. Speaking of my own experience…sar/fire/police are just now getting on the bandwagon with gis. We give them pda’s, they can do real time updates, some can push a button in their car at a stop and it goes into a database where they are and what kind of stop it was, we can do all that, through the internet, gps, gis. all the technology is there. It has been a challenge within agencies to get the police and fire to work the gis people (as should not be hard to imagine) its only recently it has begun to take off and funding is often at the heart of it, but also, are old attitudes. I go to conferences and the disparity between agencies is incredible!!

     One of the communites I worked for, their 911 dispatch looked like NASA, and we were welcomed, to work with the databases and now an application is running to coordinate the gis with call data and a huge map in the nasa like call center pops up when a call comes in.

     our public utilty guys…well some of them…took to the little pda we gave them so they could update stuff in the field and bring it back to us, and we could update the master database (also possible to do live updates).

     but that is not happeneing everywhere – yet.

     I was working for homeland security, in the military and the people were like gis? what? we have autocad…or paper maps. they dont want to learn something new!!! they resented us coming in and making them learn something new and changing the old protocols.

     I think …billions were probably spent on that program I was a part of…and is still being implemented at bases (look it up, its called geobase).

     This has been why, often my questions have been…did they talk to the gis? did they involve the gis?

     too often in the smaller commnunites top decision makers are not including the gis in the protocols and we have to take it upon ourselves in these kinds of situations to do something.

     I think google earth is awesome for the kinds of thing I have seen it used for here…and…its easier for me too cause not everyone is asking me to make a map! as we often like to focus more on analysis kind of stuff (for instance line of sight mapping, etc.) than simple location maps.

     But….it can get scary with too many cooks in the kitchen. The thing about GIS and IMS is its usually very controlled how we allow data to be udpated, and there is a great deal of qa/qc.

     Bottom line, I think its a great tool, but want people to try to become more aware of what is already happening…and for there to be better communication in agencies and support for programs that are already in place.
500. High Altitude Fly-by.
     Well, you can’t get any higher than a satellite but I was thinking of a reconnaisance flight such as would be routinely used in Real Estate, Mineral exploration, etc.
     Its not going to interfere with search helicopters that are thousands of feet lower and its something that can be analyzed after the plane lands. Computers look for sharp shapes rather than the blended and muted shapes of nature. A truck, car, tank or cabin just looks different than trees although deep canyons can make things just look like one great big shadow. Certainly an SOS in the snow might have been picked up by a photograph.
501. 477/486/492 – Regarding volunteers and mapping. This online blog discussion has made it clear to me (I think I already mentioned this) that the missing persons investigation and the SAR are two connected but distinct efforts.

     I think volunteers may be often vastly underutilized for the investigation/tip discovery efforts. I know an official LE response may be that increasing the number of tips could be dangerous if gathered by ‘unqualified’ volunteers (Mike W can you comment on your opinion on this?). I know that we generated tips that were false (however had one of them proved to be true would have been groundbreaking – one from Selma on 199 which had a lot of promise initially). Google Earth is extremely useful when overlayed with business maps, and tracking possible routes, specifically when designing routes for volunteers to flyer and canvass for tips. With more infrastructure in place, or a ready system to tap into, we probably could have been more effective from the start in our flyering/canvassing efforts. On Sunday we were covering routes 42, 101, I-5 and 199 with at least 8 cars, and we could have had more had we felt we were more welcome to do the type of work we were doing. We also had no direction from trained professionals, so we started to figure out on our own to look for obvious things like CCTV, hours of operations, etc., with a tip sheet for volunteers that lists these things we could have started out working more efficiently.

     On the SAR tip I definitely feel like the systems that JoCo and other counties have in place are probably more sophisticated than what we were doing with Google Earth. As a basic tool for flyovers and basic terrain mapping though it could be useful for quick briefing of volunteers being dropped into an area for SAR. For example, if I were on one of the raft crews, just seeing a quick flyover view from the launch point (where the little bridge is east of the BBL) to the BBL would be helpful, although in your region many of the SAR personnel may already be familiar with the terrain. It shouldn’t be underrated that a tool like Google Earth could be exactly the things a liaison should be trained in for communicating with the family about what is going on with the search – it is portable (with a net connection available) and sophisticated enough to give a family a lot of confidence and some basic knowledge about what the SAR effort encompasses.

     I would personally love to see the attitude in MP and SAR shift from ‘we’ve got this all under control, no need for help’, to ‘we’ve got this all under control, but if you’d like to help here’s how (pointer to a website on how to flyer for example, or make donations to the SAR county volunteer effort)’. The constant impression that the MP and SAR didn’t need any help puts people who are so emotionally invested in the issue into a tense position with the MP and SAR effort. Giving those people any type of outlet to help would lead to a greatly improved relationship between the general public and these types of events. I would have been stoked to hear the response, “Sorry we can’t have untrained staff doing SAR in the mountains, but our units are always in need of resources, so you can help out by making a donation to Eugene Mountain Rescue or your local Red Cross,” given to people who were calling in asking how to help.
502. JoCoSAR

     BTW on my question above, I don’t really want a name, just wanted to know if there was a person in charge and if they were almost as experienced as the four key personnel named as Powers, Anderson, Rubrecht, and Stanton. Thanks.

     OSSA – Kim Family Search Review 19 of 23

     “In retrospect, it would have saved valuable time and daylight if Powers, Rubrecht, Stanton, Anderson, and Fuqua might have met late Saturday night in lieu of the 8 A.M. meeting Sunday Morning. Meeting during the morning realistically moved the beginning of the focused search to the afternoon when all the mutual aid arrived from Jackson County thus leaving only a few hours of search time that day.”
503. I suspect that changes in the responsibilities of RUBRECHT will depend on the leadership of the new county sheriff. Also the funding for these counties is highly uncertain at the moment (with the loss of C&O payments). The governor is appointing a commission to look at this report, and to recommend changes.

     While brainstorming about interactive maps and the use of internet resources in SAR missions, keep in mind that temporary SAR headquarters might not always have a highspeed internet connection. A base in town may have such a connection, but a forward command base might only have radio communications.

     SAR teams should also be able to operate without extensive communications with the outside world. Windstorms, ice, and earthquakes can knock out power, land lines, and roads.

     paulj
504. Regarding the use of flyovers and satellites, remember that for a while, Carson helicopters concentrated their search along FS23 and areas to the south, because the Rogue River valley was shrouded in low clouds. Higher flying observers may be able to fly above the weather, but that doesn’t mean that they can see through it.

     paulj
505. Looks like the governor of Oregon has appointed a task force (from KGW.com):
     Oregon Governor Ted Kulongoski ordered the creation of a task force to review what changes could be made to state law and policies to prevent confusion from hampering future searches for people missing in the Oregon wilderness.

     The announcement Friday came on the heels of a report that cast negative light on search efforts for a California family lost in the Oregon wildnerness last month.

     Kulongoski wants the task force to review whether and how to amend state laws, administrative rules and related policies to ensure proper coordination, communication and effective pooling of resources between federal, state and local authorities in search and rescue operations.

     “Now that we have all of the facts from both the state and local levels, we need to come together to review this information, our approach to search and rescue, and identify ways we can strengthen our communications and coordination in the future,” Kulongoski said.
506. Yes, I think you are correct. The cloud cover was the problem from an observation stance rather than a flight-saftey stance and therefore no greater height would help unless one looks at a multi-frequency or infra-red photograph. I was just trying to think of what could someone have really done in this search if they had wheelbarrows full of cash? What did SAR personnel really need?
507. 506- I would want……IMO I would love it if being a SAR member was a “paid” position, a position that someone could actually live off the income so they could make this their life! I personally love it! You can ask JoCoSAR the first day I was there, I had other engagments, and well I was having such a good time I canceled them. I know it sounds weird to be enjoying yourself while you are working on something that is life changeing for another.

     So back to the subject, I think if it was a paid position, there would be a bit more dedication, and for some searches we wouldn’t just get the same 10 active members.
508. PAID “volunteers”?

     Many times they are “paid”. That one dollar a year results in a check for 0.88 but gives them health insurance.
     Often a county pays additional in language pay or pay for horsemanship skills.

     Often at small airports certain legal reasons prevent billing for the crash,rescue,fire trucks but do allow billing for the cost of the fire-fighting chemicals that were used. And sometimes for tax reasons the bill for foam will remain unpaid but a ten thousand donation will be made.

     I think what might be done is reimbursement for gasoline and pay for being ‘on call’. Also counties might be able to buy trailers or other equipment at favorable rates from known volunteers.
509. Many people ‘keyly’ connected to the Kim family story thought, early on, they knew where the Kims were likely stranded.
     > Spencer Kim “knew his son”, that he would have probably taken Bear Camp Road to get to the coast… and he followed up by riding in the helicopter he chartered to search that route.
     > Joe Duck published repeatedly his reasoning for thinking that Bear Camp Rd vicinity was the area to concentrate search efforts
     > John James actually attempted to search by snow mobile 34-8-36, the road he thought the most probable culprit.
     > John Rachor knew that 34-8-36 road may have been a dead end trap for them. He followed up on his hunch and searched that road in his helicopter

     SAR leadership thought otherwise. They did not order 34-8-36 searched end to end. The question now is, in light of this experience, what can be done for future similar events to help ensure the right things are done at the right time? The input of of knowledgeable locals and experts from anywhere should be encouraged… not dismissed as a nuisance.

     One possibility is a web site modelled after digg.com where stories making the most sense to the most people are voted to the top. An intelligent weighting mechanism that will allow for:
     – those interested to voice their opinions on what they think are likely scenarios
     – those interested to comment on what they think of of the posted scenarios
     – communication of the most plausible of these collective thoughts to SAR
     – SAR feed back of their intelligence and operations information for further consideration and analysis by all interested participants

     Let us assume a *Central* web site was functioning Dec 1. Out of of the many thousands of comments / posts relating to the lost Kims story the headline **Kims may be Stranded on Bearcamp Spur Road** rises to the forefront. SAR can not ignore the documented collective rationale and expertise behind this headlined possibility so orders an immediate search of all roads tributary to the Bear Camp with priority given to 34-8-36, the spur considered the most likely one taken by the Kims.
510. R3 – I agree with you. If people are paid, they are retained, and if they are retained it helps full-time staff to develop relationships with SAR and to help train them to use more advanced things like pda’s with interactive maps.

     what is the fire department like? are they considered part of SAR? I would imagine people like that also volunteer on the side?
511. Just reading this page about BASARC makes me wonder if there is anything like this in southern or northern oregon?

     http://basarc.org/site/?q=about
512. 510- We have partnered up with local Fire dept and some do volunteer for us, its just hard for them to pull them off a shift or take them out of the system for a search.
513. The problem I would see with a “digg it” approach is that things such as a psychic’s vision would be populat with the true believers of such things and would be “digged it” to the top!

     What might be better would be an analysis of why those who were saying Bear Camp Road were not being heeded. What were the factors that caused someone to downgrade the Bear Camp Road leads? An on-scene father can give indications into his son’s character and survival training. Ordinarily these things play a great role.
514. The reason I’m posting these quotes is so hopefully positive improvements can come from understanding these issues. Again, I want to make clear that I think these quotes are important not for reasons of blame, but for reasons of understanding what was problematic and inefficient in what needed to be an emergency search situation. There needs to be a certain urgency, even if it is not certain exactly where the “official” SAR will be
     located, because how else will people be found in time? This seems to be a central critical issue that will hopefully be looked at by the State appointed task force as well.

     There are a lot of quotes in the report that reflect urgency/efficiency issues. Here are some:

     “To his recollection, STANTON first became involved in the KIM Family Search December 1, 2006. Around 9:00 a.m., he received a call at his residence from a records clerk saying citizens were calling Josephine County about a missing family near Bear Camp. STANTON said he responded to the records clerk, “I’ll be on in a couple hours and I guess I’ll see what you’re talking about.” The clerk mentioned she would put her call to him into the notes saying he was advised of the call. STANTON said, “Like, wait a minute. You’re gonna do that to me?” and then he told the clerk to call Sara RUBRECHT.”

     “At this point all STANTON knew was that they were looking for a silver Saab with an Asian male, his wife and two children inside. They had no photos and no indication this was an official search. Local citizens, however, were really pressing them to check the Bear Camp Road. They drove to Galice and decided to follow the signs to Bear Camp. He and RUBRECHT began their search around 11:30 a.m. All the locals knew that the easiest way was to drive Galice Access and then on to Bear Camp Road (also known as FS-23) to the coast.”

     When I asked jocosar last night about they question of urgency: “Why didn’t there seem to be a sense of urgency when the family had been missing that long? Did you know how long the family had been missing?”

     “367. 364 – Lisa – As for Josephine County, starting on Friday, Stanton was the “IC.” Others even noted this as typical protocol. There was urgency, but without detailed information, it would have been very unorganized urgency. As information came in to JoCo, logical leads were followed up on. We got a print out of the family information just before we left town and headed up the mountain.
     Comment by jocosar | January 18, 2007 ”

     Unfortunately, there didn’t seem to be urgency as is reflected in quotes from Saturday:

     “ANDERSON met with RUBRECHT and STANTON on Saturday in the squad room at the Sheriff’s Office. They did not have an official search and rescue mission going on at this time. They were going to continue looking as it was good snow training. The majority of the information they received was actually from the TV news reports. It was the collective decision of RUBRECHT, ANDERSON and STANTON to go run some other logical routes. At this point, they did not have any information that indicated the KIMs were even in their county. She said they were conducting a courtesy clearing of roads. It was not a formal mission at that point, other than they had a witness indicating they saw the KIMs up there.”

     “On Saturday, the base of operations was at the Sheriff’s Office and they had United States Forest Service (USFS) employees and SAR volunteers search the Bear Camp
     Road areas.” Also wondering, where exactly did they search on Saturday?
515. Bob and Tara –

     Sorry, I missed these questions until I returned just now:

     Joe, remember the missing ranch California man? has anyone offered that software to search those foothill? or has he been found?

     I have heard nothing new in about a month – David Boone was never found and my understanding is that those hills have been searched pretty well. However during all this there was a case in NM where the search was called off and the hiker was found, alive, after something like 5 weeks – 3 with almost no food. She would crawl into her bag at night and get water from the river and finally was found by other hikers.

     Joe, Do you know if anybody at this time is working on better signs or 1/2 gate at the bottom of Galice rd?

     Bob yes I think BLM has got a project going for signage. John James was going to look into whether we might promote that so people from around here could volunteer this spring to get those signs up.
516. Wow, I had not checked my David Boone post in some time and there is a lot of new speculation and a commenter reports that there was *another* search party up there last week. Not clear if it was David or somebody else:

     https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/12/david-boone-search-ends-in-southern-california/
517. Joe…that story out of New Mexico is really amazing. It always did bother me that they said the guy could not have survived longer than a week in Southern California. I remember thinking the weather was what I would consider..chilly…survivable.
518. As has been mentioned, another urgency/efficiency issue is that on many of these days the search was being conducted, it seemed that actual ground and road search operations didn’t begin often until 11am or later, on days in early
     December, which are some of the shortest days of the entire year. That would often only leave approximately 4 strong hours of daylight a day.

     So, I wonder what could be done in order to have more organization and planning could happen at night, so that
     SAR personnel could come in and get their assignments and a much earlier head start in their search activities.

     The helicopters were often up and flying earlier, if weather permitted.
519. See Joe, I am gone for a day at work, and come back to a couple hundred posts. It is very difficult to weed out particular questions…I am going to go back and start from when I left this morning. I will do my best.
520. R3 yeah I know a few very tired firemen who do both. It must be different here though, as our SAR is mostly fire department and police personnel. I know we have volunteers but I think its really part of our fire departments role in my particular town, at least I know its always the fire department that is interviewed and they always are at the head of search efforts (I live in an area with a lot of boating accidents!!)
521. 518- In a perfect search world Lisa……You have two overhead (ICS) teams a day shift and a night shift, usually the day shifts gathers information throughout the day and executes the IAP (incident action plan)and makes suggestions for the next opperational period.

     where the night ICS team takes the info that was gathered durning the day and creates a plan for the next day and prepares the IPA for the next opperational period
522. > Spencer Kim “knew his son”, that he would have probably taken Bear Camp Road to get to the coast… and he followed up by riding in the helicopter he chartered to search that route.
     > Joe Duck published repeatedly his reasoning for thinking that Bear Camp Rd vicinity was the area to concentrate search efforts
     > John James actually attempted to search by snow mobile 34-8-36, the road he thought the most probable culprit.
     > John Rachor knew that 34-8-36 road may have been a dead end trap for them. He followed up on his hunch and searched that road in his helicopter

     I really think one problem here is that everyone is so critical of the timeline for Joco, But, EVERYONE had their pet local spot to post where they should be looking! Probably the theory “I” heard the most was Powers to Gold Beach. Its only in hindsight that people are saying, see I told you so…. If they would have found them over the edge on the Powers road everyone would have been saying, see I told you that you were wasting time over on Bear Camp Rd.

     I think we need to all stop pointing fingers and start figuring out what to do! Seem’s logical to me that once a search crosses a county line it should flip to a State Led search, that utilizes local SAR and LE, has all the equiptment, mobile command unit with fast internet, GIS, mobil phone relayes ect. One big fund raiser for the equiptment and we can all share….. Not to say local SAR does not need stuff, but how often is the big stuff really needed?

     For an Oregon story I felt it really did not get much play “In Oregon” I watched the Daily Emerald every day (Uof O student paper) and never saw an article there I would have thought there would have been, Kati having gone there. Also, ALOT of rural folks get no local news channels, and it was a while before the nationals picked it up.

     Laurie
523. 520- Well for instance yesterday’s search, we got a search team from an local fire department, I don’t know if they were the folks on shift at the time or not, BUT sometimes we get those on shift, with the knowledge that if a fire call comes in we loose them as a search team.

     Also we had an ambulance that was on scene, the staff of the ambulance have been working with SAR before so they helped out with paperwork, but usually they are just on hand if a searcher gets hurt or when we locate the subject, HOWEVER they were still on call, so if the system (city) got busy they too would have to leave.
524. 363- Scott, as a matter of fact, two of our SAR vehicles belong to EM. They were purchased with Homeland Security grant dollars for response to WMD incidents. I recieved $45,000 for a “prime mover.” Instead of purchasing one vehicle, I was able to purchase three used ones. They are pretty strict about how that money is used. I am hoping that the State will make some changes this year.
525. 478-Scott, I do believe that the laptops were retrieved for that exact reason. We collected the photos off of them for that color matching program, as requested by Spencer Kim.
526. 479- Scott, my email address is yodave@charter.net

     Please feel free to contact me at your convenience. I would love to talk with you and answer other questions. I would also love to hear your perspective on future missions.
527. Oops, forgot 472 – I was looking for that picture of the car because there was some confusion about the route taken in and the road that James took out. This was all in relation to where the snow plow was located. I truly believe that the correct information was printed in the report.
528. 473- I understand that the BLM road system is built based on township range and section. 34-8-36 is township 34, range 8 and section 34. This would be the location that the road starts. I do not forsee BLM changing that system.
529. 528- How about section 36??
530. 487 – Joe, I think that you are right with testing ideas when we are not involved in a larger mission. Maybe exercises or smaller events. I welcome that idea, and offer anything that I can for the testing of such things. You know my contact information. I will keep you updated on our scheduled training. That sounds exciting! Maybe Scott has some new ideas as well. I am totally ready to move forward.
531. 529 – sorry…typing too fast!!
532. 494 – Lisa…yes, I am absolutely positive that most of the policy/procedure issues will be dealt with. Our new admimistration is over eager to get started on that. I am all for it. We will not be recreating the wheel though. I am hoping to get another counties example and start from there. It is better to start with something that already works and just massage it to fit the needs of your county. Unfortunately, I am still the only one in this department, and this type of thing takes time. It is without a doubt, at the top of my priority list!
533. 521- RRR, Thanks!
534. 494 – Lisa
     One other note, although the summary of my interview sounds jumbled, remember that this was a 7 hour interview. I didn’t make all of those comments one right after another. There was additional context surrounding each comment. It did look much more confusing when I read it too. (not to take away from the actual confusion that exists)
535. Am I talking too much? I can be quiet for a while??
536. I like reading along jocosar!

     I havn’t read the interviews yet, by the way…saving that for last! But I am reading along with you right now. I like what you say about not recreating the wheel, and totally agree.
537. Joco, are you kidding???!!! we’ve been wating weeks for the tape to come off!
538. 496/497 – Interactive maps
     Typically, since we have such an amazing GIS department (2 people), we have relied heavily on their services for searches. For hasty teams who cannot wait for GIS, we have used Terrain Navigator. This is a simple mapping program that can be used in the field by searchers. I don’t like the idea of becoming too reliant on online mapping systems due to the fact that much of our mapping is done in the field where there is no internet service!
539. See what happens when the tape comes off?!?!?! It was strong tape, believe me! It was a new personal record!
540. just so you all know, I drank ALL my dutch bros and my next order hasnt arrived yet! I loved db so much that now my regular old coffee is yucky. 🙂
541. okay tara, that was a good sales pitch, now I will order it! my coffee is tasting yucky lately anyway.

     hmmm.maybe dutch brothers could donate some money to sar!? wait, did someone already say they did? or maybe they could sponsor us!?!?! 🙂
542. 540- I am working on a dutch bro’s freeze right now….
543. 532- Thanks Jocosar!

     Why didn’t you and Stanton think of BLM 34-8-36 as a priority to clear, when so many local people were aware
     that this is such a common mistake and problem, even Stanton himself?:

     “STANTON asked if he could back up a little. On Thanksgiving Day, which was two days before the Kim Family had supposedly gotten lost, he drove out Bear Camp Road. STANTON was there just for his own curiosity to check snow levels: people always get hung up out there.”

     “When he and RUBRECHT arrived at the road to Black Bar Lodge on December 1, 2006, the only thing they saw were snowmobile tracks. STANTON continued by saying, “Because it had snowed more since Thanksgiving. . . I already kind of lowered that road on my list of things to look at later, plus, we didn’t know where [the KIM’s] were to begin with.” [But isn’t that the point of searching?]

     “STANTON referred back to John JAMES and said, “Now I’m not willing to go to court and say that he searched that road.” STANTON said that he was willing to go to court and say that after talking to John JAMES he had the impression that JAMES had been down Bear Camp Road, though perhaps not every mile of it.“
544. 498 – who ran night operations Sat? Nobody in Jo Co. At that point, it was still road searching. Remember that I said early on that we were looking over sides of roadways for the veh or clues? The roads were also very very icy and dangerous!
     I have agreed that with hindsight, it would have been beneficial for us to meet Sat night with Fuqua. I am not disputing that…now that I have hindsight. It was Powers suggestion to me that we meet at 8am Sunday. He was the one holding the ping map. At that time, I had no idea what the information was, nor did I understand at that time how beneficial it would have been to meet that night.
     I do not remember when the ping map was given to the Kims. I do believe that OSP took it to him early Sunday afternoon just after we all left the SO to go to SAR compound.
545. 543 – Stanton referenced Bear Camp Road as a common problem. In my 6 years here, I do not believe that I have EVER driven on that particular portion of 34-8-36 past FS23. I realize that JJ mentions this as a major problem, but thanks to his redirection of wanderers, we dont get called out there.
     On Friday, we checked the major route to the coast. We followed signs to the coast with the impression that every road was passable and that every sign could be seen.
     By Saturday morning, we had many assets assigned to search east and southeast (Chrome Ridge, Onion Mtn., Silver Creek, etc) area of 34-8-36. Remember that witness who saw them driving back down the road towards Galice? Well, if you are driving to the coast, the road is very well marked, if you are turned around, it is much easier to turn on the wrong road. That is why we searched that area on Saturday. On Sunday, we were back to finishing the east side, and back to the west side. That is when we sent a unit up 34-8-36 past the intersection. Not knowing which route the Kims took after they made it that far, we had the search team check all side roads. He made it quite a way up the first road when he got stuck in the snow. We had assigned Jack Co to start there in the morning with their snow equip.
     I think that the photos that I haven’t been able to get to yet will give you a better visual for the area past the intersection.
546. Sorry, have to eat something so I can keep up my typing stamina!!
547. 545- For when you get back from eating! I have to go too for now, but I wanted to post this here because it links to the “witness who saw them driving back down toward Galice.”
     (I will check back in later to read your response – Thanks!)

     Question: jocosar, if Sara felt that the information was unfounded why did she and Stanton spend so much of Friday and Saturday following this lead?

     These are all quotes directly from the report:

     “They learned at that point in this investigation that Josephine County SAR had searched Bear Camp Road and several adjacent roads with negative results. Josephine County SAR had followed up on a tip that an intoxicated person reported seeing the KIMs’ vehicle traveling up Bear Camp Road and then back down on November 25, 2006. RUBRECHT felt that the information was unfounded; however, she interviewed the reporting party.”

     “On the way home, dispatch advised her of a potential witness who had reported to RUBRECHT’S husband a possible sighting of the KIM family in that area. (Searchers
     later learned that this sighting by the Christmas tree cutting caravan folks was a false lead. Much of Friday night and Saturday were spent tracking this lead and talking with the witnesses.)”

     “Regarding the report receive early Friday afternoon on December 1, 2006, that the KIM’s car had been following a convoy of Christmas tree hunters down Bear Camp Road, STANTON said they eventually ruled that out. (It should be noted that STANTON and RUBRECHT spent much of Friday and all day and night Saturday involved in tracking this lead, interviewing witnesses and playing “phone tag” with detectives at OSP in an attempt to relay witness information. This was one of the handful of tips that later turned out to be misleading or false.)“
548. 545 – jocosar

     We’re eagerly awaiting the pics!
549. 548 – pics will come as soon as I am done answering questions…promise!
550. you might just want to do the pic’s, for I believe the questions will never end, now that the duct tape is off! 😉

     Laurie
551. 547 – not sure I see a particular question here. I can address this witness though….
     Both witnesses interviewed that they were 99% sure that they saw the Kims on Sunday. Last seen headed down the hill. In hindsight, we know that isn’t true. I only now know that information was unfounded. It wasn’t just the witness account that we were following up on, it was the fact of reality that if they had turned around to come back the way that they came, getting lost on the east side would have been a high probability. There are signs that point to 199 (another route to the coast) that would take them on one of the routes checked on Saturday.
     There is no question that much time was spent on that side of the road. Had they been found there, it would have been valuable time spent. Unfortunately, that wasn’t the case.

     I wanted to clarify the tip from my husband. He is a supervisor for County Roads. He manages many employees. It just so happened that this witness works for him. The witness called my husband to get the information to me. This is a small town, and all of his employees know what his wife does. My husband then called dispatch due to the fact that I didn’t have cell coverage while on the mountain. I did not treat that “tip” any differently than any other that I was made aware of. It just happened that it came via my husband’s phone call.
552. Gee, something sure seems wrong.
     Somebody is holding a “Ping Map” and he says ‘let’s have a meeting tomorrow morning and waste a whole lot of daylight but I ain’t gonna tell you till the morning what the meeting is about and how critical this darned ping map I got in my hand is’.

     Too much phone and voicemail and miscommunication.
553. 552- The map was already a week old by the time that Powers got…this is the first time that this type of info has been used for us
554. 501 – As mentioned before, I would love to talk with you and learn from this experience. It’s not common for us to have the types of outside resources that were involved in this case. I am not sure why, but I was not made aware (perhaps it was not relevant to my position at the time) of the extent of what the family friends were doing. I was aware of some of the things that Spencer and Eva were doing, but that was only because I overheard conversations. I would have loved to have known that information. As of Saturday, OSP had appointed a trooper that stayed with Spencer Kim at Carson for the duration of the search. He then relayed critical information back and forth from the CP.
555. 552 – I agree with you. It was mostly due to our lack of understanding of this technology. I sure know much more about it now!! I do remember that during my conversation with Powers that night that he mentioned that there was a tower on Bear Camp, near MP18. I knew this was not the case….It goes to show how that game of telephone was played!
556. Laurie, if I leave now, I will have to catch up twice as much!! This is really hard!!
557. Once again, a portable cell tower seems to be needed so search administrators if not searchers are never out of touch. Else there has to be a rule that administrators don’t go out into the field and lose communication capability. I realize there can be some really remote terrain but SAR people sure need to have something that is reliable.
558. 503 – My current position is paid as follows: 92% O&C funding (gone in June), 4% general funds, 4% reimbursed by the state for EMPG (Emergency Management Performance Grant). With the loss of O&C monies, I am not sure how the position itself will be funded, no matter who they choose to fill it.
559. 557 – again, great points! I have already been talking to Edge about the airplane tower that was talked about here, and the more efficient use of a temp. cell tower. I have offered my help in trying to solve some of the power issues (generators, etc).
     It is important to note that Edge had set up a temp tower on Peavine on Tuesday. They also brought 30 cell phones for our use in the field. This was all at no cost to local SAR. They were amazing!
560. 509 – Kip, you mention that 34-8-36 was not ordered to be searched end to end. It was. I was looking through the report today and noticed that our actual assignments were never listed anywhere. They took some assignments from Jackson Co’s report, but didn’t include ours. I did not have an opportunity to summarize assets in the field due to the fact that my paperwork was not available to compile. I think that would have been helpful information! I was surprised that wasn’t included at all.
561. 514 – Lisa, you mention many quotes regarding lack of urgency. Those are mostly other peoples quotes and I cannot speak for them in any way. (I had photos of the family when I went up the mtn on Friday, I didn’t get a photo of the car until Sat. when I met with Spencer)
562. I think I am mostly caught up…with what I can answer anyway..if I missed something, please let me know. I have been reading and typing as quickly as I can. I am sorry if I missed something. At times, I saw alot of comments with no questions. I didn’t respond to those yet….
563. JoCoSAR your keyboard is smoking … but keep it up! Thanks for answering so many of the questions here.
564. Alrighty, it must be either bedtime or dinner time…the posts have slowed WAY down
565. 559 Just a little clarification here… the “airplane tower” is an idea from some of the employee’s that is definately (sorry for the pun but here it comes…) cutting edge.

     In theory, if it were determined that a particular canyon or location needs get temporary cell coverage, it MAY be possible to put a frequency translating repeater on a helicopter to provide temporary cell coverage to a specific location. Such a project would have to be designed, financed, implemented and tested well in advance as there would be some definate techinical issues to overcome. It is simply an idea at this piont. And it’s not an “official” idea from Edge.

     Edge does have a goat (Gsm On A Trailer) which is a portable cell site that can be deployed to SOME locations (it needs line of site of another tower). Peavine Mt is an example.
566. I’m sorry Eric, if I indicated that idea was from Edge, I didn’t mean to…I only meant that I brought it up from the ideas shared here.
567. What about sattelite phones….are those used at all out there by le or sar? I know they are more expensive and cumbersome, but I know even my friend took one with her when she hiked the colorado trail……

     it seems like maybe one or two of these would be in use.
568. I have asked for a Sat phone, but we do not have the budget for one. The cost is outrageous!!
569. figures….my friend was kinda rich 🙂
570. maybe someone will donate one….that would be a good donation….
571. JoCoSAR what about those Radio phones, they are phones just like our cells but have the capability of using the repeaters…many of the river guides have them.
572. The actual phone itself isn’t that bad, it’s the monthly service and the per minute cost that is painful!
     I don’t know much about the radio phones. You’ll have to tell me more about those later…
573. Eric F –

     How much does it cost to deploy a GOAT for a day? Seems like that would be a good standard SAR procedure if it’s affordable?
574. Uploading photos now..
575. Joe, don’t go far…I will send you photobucket stuff for you to post!!
576. RRR / You have mail.
577. yes, JoCoSAR. thanks for 544.

     Fools Gold on 552,555. The cell “ping” map.

     Reminds me of the astronauts who get into a complex mess (not of their making), and say, “We have to rest now, Houston, figure this out.” Then Houston taps the expertise at it’s sites across the nation, solves the problem and delivers their best options to the astronauts when they awake.

     So where was Houston in this SAR ?
578. Have you all seen the ping map in the report? I haven’t looked at the online version, only my hard copy…is it there?
579. Wow, been a busy day here. I’ve finally read the report all the way through and just got through all of these posts. JoCo, so very glad that the duct tape is off!

     I haven’t had a chance to sit down and really form my questions, but I do have this one. Repeatedly throughout the report there is mention of additional help being available but that it was never asked for (I’d have to dig back through for specifics if needed – after I get a cup of coffee). Why?

     Let’s see the additional pics!

     For all the Dutch Bros comments – every day that I’ve driven by for my morning cup of happy, I’ve just wanted to tell them how much advertising for them has been going on here, but they always have my latte ready to go (they see me coming, literally, and get it ready), it would take entirely too long to explain…
580. 578 – JoCo, ping map in the report is very small and difficult to see, but it’s there.
581. Cmt 580 Maggie and JoCoSAR

     Yes, cell phone map is in color on my copy and I can increase it’s size on my version of Acrobat/Adobe reader.
582. Cell phone map at

     page 21 of 23 of Part II,
583. Thank you for clarification on map. Good to know that you can increase size. Is it at all what you thought it would be?
584. So the big question is where was the Kim’s SAAB located on that map?
585. Maggie –
     about not using resources offered. I don’t have a clear answer for you. What I can guess, is that there was not one clear place to offer resources. I know that my normal office phone was used by Hastings, and the first day that I answered it, it was all media. I was then told not to answer it anymore. I am not sure how all offers came in and to where? There were several offers that came into our SO, and those resources were put into our dispatch notes. I did go back to those and call upon some of those resources as we exhausted local resources. Many were scheduled to arrive on Thursday. The communications from Portland were not requested, although we had several conversations, because OSP had another resource that was closer. That resource arrived Tuesday evening.
     In the future, I would like to activate our phone bank and have volunteers answering a “hotline” at the CP…if it is at my office again. I think that would have solved many of those issues…one of those things that will be evaluated in the near future as a solution. It was frusterating to me to find out about some of the available resources for the first time in this report!
586. Bamadad – let me see if I can find the map and try to explain it to you…
587. Bamadad – if you zoom way into the map and find the blue line in the middle (river), 33-9-21 is labeled there. I believe, without my real map in front of me, that the intersection is right under the 9…best I can tell…please do not quote me or hold me totally accountable for this guess. I do not have my reference maps here to compare…JUST GUESSING!!!!! 🙂
588. 587 – Wow, I found it, and that definitely looks like the intersection seen on regular maps and in pics. What do all of the different colors represent exactly?
589. JocoSAR

     thanks I see the BLM 33-9-21, which is a road about one inch left of dead center on the map at 100% resolution.

     The letter “C” in Bear Camp Road is directly below the “9” in BLM 33-9-21 about one inch at 100% resolution. That is the the nearest word to BLM 33-9-21.

     Thanks.
590. Eric has a perfect explanation for that…
591. 589 – Nice description, Bamadad. I saw it but couldn’t figure out quite how to best describe it. Nice job 🙂
592. I mean “Bear Camp Road” are the nearest words to BLM 33-9-21. Do I have this right? and the C in Camp is one inch below the “9” in BLM 33-9-21

     I know you are only guessing at the SAABs location, as this map has no scale or direction and looks to need an overlay or legend with the various colors.
593. I am not sure I understand your description, but the intersection is between the “9” on 33-9-21, and the second “3” in 33-10-36
594. Yes Maggie

     I have red, orange, yellow, blue splotches, and then a thin, pale blue line depicting the Rogue River. The Rogue River light blue line is only visible at 300% or greater resolutions for me.

     I also have a north/south red line running from the top to bottom in the eastern third of the map– that has to be I-5. and the reddest splotche along this road is likely Glendale, where the cell phone tower is located. Glendale is between Azalea and Sunny Meadows near I-5.
595. JoCoSAR,

     Yes I see the intersection as you describe it.

     I gave my directions from dead center on the map to help those of us who looked all over the map just to find BLM 33-9-21. The nearest words to it are ironically Bear Camp Road.
596. Yes Bamadad, the darker black line from the red I-5 line towards the bottom section of the map is Bear Camp Road.

     Since it doesn’t appear as though Eric is here still, I was told that the different colors in the splotches represent different intensity of possible signal. I know that he will have a much better description for you…
597. Maggie

     Azalea and Sunny Meadows on the right side of the map near the intense red splotche is a distance of about 17 miles according to my Rand McNally map.
598. 17 miles from where?
599. Thank you for the scale, Bamadad. That helps get an idea of the size of the area covered.
600. Distance between Azalea and Sunny Valley??
601. Cmt 596, JoCoSAR

     Yes thanks. I am sure that is right. My guess is that red is the most intense, then probably pink, orange, yellow and blue– this is just a guess as those seem to be the descending colors from nearest the cell tower.
602. JoCo, it sounds like it’s about 17 miles from the Azalea and Sunny Meadows area where the red splotches are to where the car was found. Is that what you meant, Bamadad?
603. On the RF map colors…red is hot, blue is cold (predicted signal strength…no color means no coverage).

     This was not a map leading to the location of the vehicle…it was a map depicting the possible locations where they could have received their sms message at 1:30 AM on Sunday, Nov 26th.

     When plugged into the scenario that they were on I-5 and wanted to go to Gold Beach it shows that it is very likely that they could have driven through coverage on Bear Camp Road (look at the blotch of color near fdr 440)–that was the “best guess”. However, they also could have taken the Power’s route or any other spur road and hit a pocket of coverage. All possibilities had to be eliminated via searching.

     If you need scale, it’s about 20 miles from fdr 440 to Glendale.
     The vehicle was found about 5 miles north (as the crow flies) of fdr 440, not on Bear Camp but on 24-8-36.

     You can take the RF map and convert it to a .bmp and plop it on Google Earth. Then “scale” it so the roads of the .bmp match those of Google Earth. You can then adjust the opacity and see the coverage overlaid on the satellite image It’s notttt qqquittee scientific as the scale must be adjusted by hand, but it gets pretty close. By doing that you can see exactly where the car was and where James was found (assuming you’ve got those placemarks).
604. GO MAGGIE GO!!!! MAPETTE JR!!!
605. Eric, I knew you could do that better than me!! Thank you!
606. I’m trying to figure this map out too, I marked a circle at the spot where I thought the car was located. only guessing! .. http://tinyurl.com/2rqjhl .. anyone got it figur’d better?
607. 597-602 Maggie and JoCoSAR

     To clarify, it is about 17 miles from Azalea to Sunny Meadows along I-5 on my Rand McNally map.

     Cmt 603

     Thanks Eric
608. Kip – not quite close enough…move your circle up further and a bit to the right…see description above.
609. 606 – Kip, I was looking just above your circle, just below the line. The roads make that same horseshoe shape with the additional road (if that makes sense).
610. I still don’t see Sunny Meadows…only Sunny Valley
611. If we are talking about the colors on Edge map, my guess is that the colors indicate the relative strength of signal from that location, or alternative the probability that the signal came from that spot. I assume red end of the color spectrum is strongest/highest probability, blue lowest.

     The cell tower must be on the right side in the middle of the strongest red. That is roughly where the community of Glendale is located, and I5 passes near by. I’ve studied Google Earth enough to have a good sense of the orientation (N up) and location of various points on this map.

     I suspect that the patches of color further away are located on ridge tops, or ridge sides facing the tower. Valleys below the ridge tops would be out of line of site of the cell tower, and thus have poor to no signal reception.

     Bear Camp Rd (FS 23) is the black line a bit left of center. That road roughly follows a ridge, either on top, or just below the top on the south side. There is a band of color just to the north of the road, along the north side of that ridge. There is a BLM road high on the ridge on that side (34-9-21), but I suspect it was impassible due to snow. You can see snow on this road on the Google Earth image.

     The high point of FS23 is where a through route, FS 2308 branches off to the southwest. They rejoin at Agness on the left side of the map. The car was located to the NNE of the summit, at the edge of the cluster of BLM roads, at a bend where 33-9-21 branches off.

     There is a patch of color on 34-8-36 shortly after the FS23 junction, where it is at 3500 ft on the north side of the ridge. But I don’t think the car was here when the cell connection was made, at least not if the contact was only half a hour before they stopped. At less than 20mph, they would have covered less than 10 miles in the last half hour. So I am inclined to put them closer to the Black Bar Lodge turn off at the time of the connection (6 miles). But this spot is only at 2000 ft altitude.

     The other possibility is that they had already passed their stopping spot and were driving up hill in a SSW direction toward the Bear Camp summit (on 34-9-7). The connection might have occurred up on that ridge a ways. Hitting snow, they then retreated to the lower junction. The car was found pointing N, as though they had been driving downhill to this junction, or had recently turned around.

     I have even wonder if they had branched on to 34-9-7 back near the Big Windy drainage, and taken that higher route to their final stopping place. That would have given them better phone reception at 1:30 am. However, I suspect that, if faced with a junction, they choose the lower branch each time, thus staying on 34-8-36. The junction photos probably make those choices clear.

     paulj
612. 34-8-36…ya’ll know what I meant!
613. So when the December 17th Oregonian said “The BLM road shooting off Bear Camp Road, where the family would be found the following day, was one of the few areas where a cell signal could reach and a road existed,” and now I look at the map, that sounds like a very simplistic statement made by the reporters. There was a lot of ground to cover if I’m seeing those colors correctly.
614. 609 – I meant to say below the nine, not below the line. Anyway, close.
615. Kip, go north five miles and west about one. I know I know…it’s kinda hard to do that without a scale….
616. cmt 607, yes Sunny Valley, not Sunny Meadows. My mistake.
617. Yes Maggie…my point exactly. Sounded very simple in the paper, right?? This was the EXACT map we worked off of.
618. Stivers in March 2006, may have passed through some reception spots almost due west of Glendale. On the river shuttle route map this northern route is Eden Valley – Kelsey-Mule Rd, labeled in spots as FS 3348 and BLM 32-8-31.
     I can’t quite make out any of those roads on the Edge map.

     paulj
619. Whew, I thought I was going nuts!!! I couldn’t find Sunny Meadows, thanks.
620. Paulj, at the motorhome location, we had great coverage on our edge phones!! I couldn’t point that location out to you here on the map without my map from that search. I am not familiar enough with those roads, they are not in my county. They were right near the Calvert air strip though…if you find that!
621. 619 – I just saw Sunny “something” and figured that was it – shows how closely I read 😉

     613 & 617 – Wow, did the Oregonian get to look at the map? I just can’t imagine what would have prompted them to say it that way if they’d seen the map and all of those possibilities. Anyone know if they saw the map?
622. Joe, are you here?? I have photos done..
623. The RF map also leaves open the possibility that Kims were lost closer to Galice, in the area around the Peavine and Chrome Ridge detours.

     paulj
624. They are in order..backwards though. I would imagine that is how you are all going to want to see them though. I am disappointed that the full descriptions are not listed. I will be around for just a little bit longer to describe them if need be. RRR can explain some too, she took most of them!
     Unfortunately, I am sure that these will get posted on other sites as well…would it be better if I shared my email and then I could tell each of you where to find them? That way our photos would remain “ours?”
625. Eric, Maggie, jocosar… How’s this? small black circle. http://tinyurl.com/2lqox7
626. Maggie, I am not sure if they saw the map. I would imagine that Det. Mike could answer that..he should be around in a couple of hours, like usual. Talk about a man that never sleeps!
627. Kip, that is almost perfect…just a little smidge to the left I think. I cannot zoom on your map.
628. 625 – Kip, that’s about where I thought it was (hard to tell on that picture since it’s small, but it looks like where I was looking).
629. I once located the Calvert air strip on Google Earth. It is about 5 miles north of Kims car, roughly on a jagged stretch of county line. But I’m not sure about the road numbers. I don’t think they were too far off the road to Marial (32-9-14.2).

     paulj
630. Kip, if you look closely, you can see the intersection, I think, shown in the pictures of the car where 3 roads meet – almost like a horseshoe but another road coming out of its arch, if that makes sense.
631. CMT 625.

     Kip the intersection that JoCoSAR described is directly at the 0900 hours point on your black circle.

     Now if Paul and Eric confirm — then we know where the SAAB was located.
632. 613 -the Oregonian. Maggie, you are seeing it correctly. It seems like the Oregonian was less interested in technical accuracy and more interested in who was watching what football game and when.
633. Eric, what is the chance that the signals could have bounced around a little with the weather? I know fog can mess up the signals, but how about the snow?

     Laurie
634. I agree – 9 oclock on Kips circle is the junction where the car was found.
635. OK,, my final attempt! – – http://tinyurl.com/2clx49
636. Oh geez Eric, you kill me!!!!! Perfectly said!! They were definitely confused when the report said that I never called Brian Anderson and didn’t get answered…That call NEVER happened! They asked me yesterday where they got that information!
637. 632 – Thank you, Eric. That was the impression some of us had on some of the things mentioned in the reports. This one is a pretty obvious example. I guess I expected a map with a little sign saying “look here, look here!” in about 3 or 5 places. I had no idea it was quite that complex. It definitely narrowed it down by hundreds of miles, though, thanks to your hard work.
638. Kip, I think you got it!!! That’s my vote..JUST MY OPINION!! Not based on any coordinate though…
639. 635 – Kip, I think you’ve got it. Do you see the familiar intersection? (if that’s what it is)
640. Maggie, yep.. in middle of the circle. thanks!
641. this is from the interview of the Carson pilots:

     “Sunday afternoon they got the cell tower information and confirmation of credit card use at Denny’s in Roseburg. This information narrowed the search down to a 30 degree arc out of Glendale. They did outlines and overlays on maps for probability of locations. The cell tower information was the turning point in their search.”

     I hope to ask Eric if a 30 degree arc, means the wedge was 26 miles on each equa-distant side of the isosceles triangle with a 30 degree angle. I don’t know the azimuth of the centerline of the triangle.

     Eric, remember this is what the Carson pilots said they used and you may have a different take on the Wedge.

     But what portion of the 90 degree SW quadrant do I lay the 30 degree arc?

     Or maybe you draw a centerline azimuth from the tower and then draw two 26 mile lines 15 degrees to either side. What is the direction of the azimuth?

     Thanks.
642. Sorry Eric, but have to “out” you..

     I talked to Eric about the report and how we could obtain his accurate information for the OSSA report. Edge has an attorney that was protecting Eric from the media, along with others. This was a bit of a difficulty for the investigators writing the report. I called Eric and he was very concerned about getting the information out legally. He was so amazing! He worked his tail off to make it happen. I know that he comes across as a cool guy here, but he is one fo the coolest that I know! He didn’t have to do that, but he did!
643. Hi JocoSAR I’m back..
644. Another round of thanks to Eric. I’m very glad that the map was able to make it into the report for some perspective.
645. Bamadad, I sure wish I paid more attention in geometry class!
646. On the bear scat/berries comment in the report. I know what we all read in the report, then heard here from JoCo that James did not eat the berries, and I just heard on the news (kgw – channel 8) that the Kim’s did look to see what kinds of berries they might be able to find. I had wondered how anything like that was mentioned in the report if it was based on nothing – so there’s an explanation.
647. 645 – me, too, JoCo 😉

     646 – OK, that was not supposed to be a sunglasses smiley – it was supposed to be (channel eight) but with the 8 and the ), I got 8)
648. Yes, JoCoSAR–
     I loved math and learned map reading pretty well in the service. Artillery and such.

     Say what was the deal with the Larry King show interrupting the command center?. How long did that affect you folks? If it was more than one minute, I remain mad at the media.
649. 646 & 647 – I’m not so bright – it was channel 12, local Fox station that reported…
650. 648 – this is easy. The way that the building was set up was the main meeting room was a general meeting room for searchers and briefings. There was a smaller meeting room where most of the command staff worked with main maps and such. There were 4 other offices, mine included that were used for other reasons..map making, phone calls, small meetings, etc. One night, Larry King crew set up in the main meeting room and we had to close all of the doors. There was an outside door from the command room to outside and to the commo room across the driveway. Search coordination did not stop, we just had to whisper for about 30-45 minutes. It was not as big of a deal as it sounded in the report, just annoying! Does that make sense?
651. Cmt 650

     Yes , thanks. I was riled up if the LK show interfered– I know media descended like locusts. Well good night and I’ll be thinking of a new town, named Sunny Meadows, not Sunny Valley. Ha
652. Bamadad, the “90” degree SW “arc” would be roughly between 305 true north and 220 true north…that gives an idea of what direction and beamwidth the Glendale “Z” sector was pointed.
653. I should add that BLM 34-9-7 that I mention in post 611 is the ‘unlikely alternative’ the Maggie shows on one of her maps. As I said it has the advantage of putting them higher with better possibility of phone connection, but has the disadvantage of being snowy.

     Still some accounts talk about them being stuck in snow shortly before calling it quits for the night.

     paulj
654. Thanks to JoCoSAR and RRR more pix:
     http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r33/KimRoute06/
655. JoCoSAR – What’s with the broken sign at the location where the car was located?
656. I don’t know, that’s how it was when I got there. Not sure how it got that way
657. You would all laugh when you saw the back seat of our truck that day! We had more stuff than any three people could possibly need for a very long time!
658. 657 – I bet you did! And you’ve saved me a trip. I’ve reconsidered my idea of going this summer. No need.

     Which intersection is this one:
     

     It looks different from the 23/BLM split, but I’m not sure?
659. The pix are really interesting JoCoSAR and RRR, thanks for taking those!
660. Sorry, I’m just asking questions as I see them… Please tell me that this is not a sign that is supposed to be seen in the dark. Am I missing something?

     
661. Maggie, that was my hope with sharing the photos. I certainly didn’t want a bunch of people going up there to see what I could share this way. I would love to have a JD reunion at Galice sometime over dinner on the deck overlooking the Rogue…that sounds like more fun!!
662. Those are intersections on 34.8.36 past the major intersection that we have all been talking about. There are three major intersections that James and Kati may have passed if they took the route I think they took. None are signed (worth a darn). My theory is that if they were trying to go “down,” they took the right at each intersection. This would take them past the location where James left the road, past BBL road, and eventually to the car location. The photos are in backwards order, so if you follow them backwards, you would see them as James did.
663. 661/Sara – Now there’s an idea I can get enthused about. 😛
664. I am all about enthusiasm!!! Focused enthusiasm is even better!!
665. sure is lonely in here while everyone is away looking at photos!!!
666. 662 – JoCo, is the route you think they took the one that was shown most in the media and the one I traced in Google Earth, or a different route?

     That terrain actually headed into Big Windy is unbelievable. Thank you so much for taking the pictures. I kept trying to find pictures that gave some perspective, but these are by far the most “descriptive” I’ve seen in the way that a picture is worth a thousand words.
667. Sara/RRR: Those terrain shots where he entered Big Windy look dreadful !!!…and I know, from examining a topo map, that where he went into the drainage is relatively flat compared to what he encountered after a mile or so. I can’t imagine, 5+ miles in sneakers after more than a week with little food and water, after a 10 mile hike up the road ?!?!?
668. Re: 428/RodneyG

     As someone else who has thought from early on that they took the incorrect (right) fork completely by mistake (thinking it was indeed the main road), it is now obvious that I was wrong. Kati is clear that they took the correct (left) fork, encountered heavy snow, backed up, and then took the right fork thinking this would get them to a lower elevation.

     I now believe this is what happened. But the question in my mind remains: Why they would the Kims choose to go down a road that was not on their map and with no signs indicating it would take them to the coast?

     I had assumed from early on the the unlocked gate had confused them into thinking the right fork was the main road and they took this mistakenly. Surely no one would knowingly take the road NOT marked as to the coast, would they? Surely someone encountering heavy snow in the middle of night with no one around and with two young children would backtrack the way they had come, the way that was certain to lead to the known and safety?

     Alas, I don’t mean to criticize the Kims nor to suggest that what they did was unreasonable. Kati indicated she was afraid of turning around because of the steep drop offs. The kids may have been very anxious by this point in time. In general, I agree with #407/Det. Mike W. that a sense of infalibility or that nothing will go wrong if you just keep pushing forward was at play. The Kims obviously are/were intelligent, thoughtful people and after they were stuck made the best of the situation, perhaps better than most would have done. If the search effort had been more effective, all would have been well.

     But in addition to what Det. Mike W. suggests, there may have been, shall we say, differences of opinion between James and Kati, about what to do and where to go. Human beings, after all, aren’t logical thinking machines but messes of emotions, desires and fears.

     And at this point I should stop with this idle speculation, as I don’t really want to know more than I already know, and I am certainly not looking to assign blame, just to understand.

     So perhaps it is better to place myself in a similar situation, for surely I have gotten myself into sticky situations thinking I could go just a bit further and then finding it was going to be hard to get out. And surely my traveling companions and I have not always seen eye-to-eye nor always been in the perfect frame of mind to focus on our travels and have sometimes missed key signs or made poor decisions for being distracted by our own dealings with each other.

     After all, as Shakespeare knew so well and the playgoers in Ashland see again and again, the difference between a comedy and a tragedy, between a happy ending and a death, often hangs on fate and the narrowest of choices. Human weakness sometimes cheats fate and sometimes does not.

     I don’t know why for certain the Kims ending up taking the right fork through the unlocked gate, a choice that in hindsight sealed their fate, but I trust that at the time they did so for reasons that made sense at the time. And that is the tragedy, that bad things can and do happen to good people.
669. And I am sure the water temp of Big Windy must have been extremely cold to top it all off.
670. I’ll be quiet for a bit after this comment (yah, right), but seeing where the car was located, it makes perfect sense that James and Kati thought it was somewhat “open” and more easily seen. I know that there were trees above, but just in terms of space, I would imagine that most areas would be more narrow. It really does seem that they tried so hard to use logic to fix the situation. So heartbreaking to see the pictures.
671. would love to have a JD reunion at Galice sometime over dinner on the deck overlooking the Rogue

     Great idea JocoSAR! At Galice Resort:
     http://www.galice.com/
672. Maggie – I strongly believe that they took the route that we originally plotted, not the alternate route. It just lines up with Kati’s account. We just will not be sure until she says what happened. I am following the description of what they were trying to do…get lower. We did that on our drive, and ended up at the location of the car.
673. I am sure that we could work a deal with the manager to stay at the lodge one night too..hot tub, private rooms, great fun!!!!
674. I’m all about resourcing! Our marine deputy (shares my office) has a wife that works at the Dutch Bros main office….perhaps we could work a deal there too?? Anything is possible!!!
675. RobZ – My thoughts exactly. I’ve held out all this time truly thinking that it was unlikely that they’d ever gotten onto FS23 and had taken the right at the intersection. It was so much easier to understand that, and it made more sense to me. Now, the questions are back – why? Many areas were likely difficult to turn around, but at that intersection, it looks like it would have been the best opportunity to do so and just go back down the way they came. I just wonder, and most of all just wish that they could have known, but how could they have known what such a simple decision would cost?
676. 673/674: And I have a 14′ self-bailer in case anyone gets bored.
677. 673 – Oooh, hot tub! Just tell me drinks or coffee drinks (or Espresso-tinis which I love to make – imagine that), maybe even a little karaoke, and I am there! We could rename the place in honor of Joe just for the reunion.
678. 675/Maggie & RobZ: if there is one question I most want to ask Kati, that is the one…knowing civilization was behind you, and lower elevation, hence no snow, why did you not just turn around at that fork?
679. 672 – Thank you for clarifying the route, JoCo. Thinking of going lower in elevation, you got to the same spot is a pretty strong argument. That had to be such a bizarre feeling taking that trip. Thank you again for the pictures.
680. 677/ They make coffee drinks at the resort, they have a hard liq license, but I don’t know if they use Dutch Brothers for their Spanish Coffees. You would probably have to bring some.
681. 678 – Paul, that’s exactly why I understood it so much better when I thought they took that right and assumed they were headed to the coast. Perhaps they still thought somehow it would get them there and continued on. If Kati ever does decide to talk about that, I’d sure listen. I’d also understand if that was one of those that she didn’t care to discuss. So puzzling. So tragic.
682. I need to sign off and get some sleep, that way it will insure someone important will come on after I’m gone – Murphy’s Law and all that. Sara & RRR thank you for the new photos, it really helps complete the picture.
683. It was bizarre. No doubt about it. It was even more bizarre when my edge phone got a text message!!! RRR and I about jumped out of our skin! It was right after I was told to not talk on here, and I was really feeling helpless here at home just reading along. Everyone wanted to know what it was like up there, including me…I had to go, Emily had to go! Thank goodness my husband drove us. (BTW, it was Emily that got car sick this time, not me!!)
684. Paul, you are great!! Goodnight!
685. 682 – Night Paul. Yes, if I look away, too, something happens, something becomes known or someone shows up.
686. 683/ We’ve had more than a few people get car sick using BC for raft shuttles, it’s not the straightest stretch of roadway in the world.
687. 683 – Sara, you got a text message??!! How far into the trip?
688. If Kati’s dad drops in after I’m gone, I’m gonna have kittens!!
689. See, Paul? Hope you are still here.
690. Just don’t eat your sock, or hat.
691. I knew you would ask that…I actually have all of the mileage and reference information out in my car…but it was a couple of miles past the intersection with FS23. that was the only place. I get all fire and medical pages on my phone, they were storing up waiting for a “handshake!”
692. 678 Good question Paul. But hasn’t each one of us, at one time or another, hit a fork in the road that we wish we would have turned around on?
693. I’ll be dropping out soon as well – thanks everybody, especially JoCoSAR for all this feedback and the pictures!
694. 691 – Wow. I know it’s a huge issue, but especially with analog going away (not sure even that would have helped the Kim’s?), having cell coverage everywhere really would be a wonderful thing.
695. It is time for me to go too. I am absolutely WORN OUT!! It’s hard to describe to people, but the search just ended for me yesterday! I will be back tomorrow. Thanks for a great evening of (non duct tape) conversation. That felt productive!
696. goodnight..Det. Mike should be here soon, I think he typically shows up after midnight…he can pick up the conversation.
697. Sooooo I take it that RRR is Emily???

     Its so weird to think of you as Sara and Emily after all these months of RRR and JOCOSAR! 😉

     So do we have a name for Mapper yet, or did I forget it?

     Mapper you better make it to the Galice Resort, we are just nasty to outsiders if they come in and pay double the asking price for the house we wanted to buy….. In CASH! of course if they want to offer us that for our house its ok! LOL 😉

     Laurie
698. Thanks again, Sara. Glad you can speak freely.
699. Good evening (morning ?) everyone. Thought I heard my name somewhere, figured it must be here.
700. Hi Detective Mike! Folks were just saying it was about this time you’d show up, and here you are!
701. No, the RF map was not provided to media (not by our agency, anyway) at any time. We definitely would have liked to be able to share it with them, if for no other reason than to try to convince them there was no conspiracy to conceal some “hidden” message which they were certain Eric F. sent to me (which did not exist).

     The main reason we could not provide it was because it was considered privileged information that we secured through an agreed upon legal process. It was not for us to legally redistribute – only to be used for the emergency at hand, not to satisfy the media’s or even the public’s curiosity.
702. 701 – If the media didn’t see the map, then maybe that helps explain why they made it sound so darn simple and almost conclusive. Seeing it in the report really gave some new perspective. Clearly extremely helpful in narrowing to the correct area, but not just a matter of checking only a small handful of roads.

     I think I missed the hidden message part (my mind is just not big enough to hold everything I’ve been reading). Are you in the mood to give a re-cap of that part?
703. I haven’t been able to keep up completely here, but recall reading something about not trying to implement an online SAR assist during any upcoming *real* situation, but rather, attempting to get the ducks in a row (sorry, Joe, no pun intended, but it works) to possibly have a “plan” for some sort of offer of assistance in the future.

     I’ve been thinking about a mock scenario possibility. What if you all were presented with a *real* scenario (based on a past, actual occurence), with time constraints set up to mimic actual conditions, without anyone actually being endangered at the time of the exercise. Practice is what causes us to grow, and often gives some “real world” exposure to possible future situations.

     Thoughts?
704. 699/Det. Mike W. – Yes, I mentioned you way back in post #668, maybe an hour or so ago. I was wondering about human frailties and your idea about a sense of infallability, and adding to that a suggestion that there may be a darker side to the story, not darker in the since of sinister but darker in the sense that we all have moments when we are not at the best but usually it makes no lasting difference. But then there are the times when, in hindsight, you realize that one or two of those times made a huge difference and all you can do is cry or remain silent or try to forget because some choices can’t be undone, some paths in light can’t be backed up.

     Of course, I really don’t know what I am talking about – and I don’t really want to know. But it is just a mystery why the Kims having encountered snow so heavy they couldn’t go forward and having to back down FS 23 would choose to go down an unknown road – the right fork at THE intersection – rather than turn around at THE intersection (where there was clearly room to do so) and go back the way they came as that would certainly lead them to a lower elevevation, out of the snow and back to known civilization. Why take a leap of faith following a road not marked to the coast and not on your map?

     But you have already answered that question as well as perhaps it can be answered.
705. 703 – Det. Mike, I think that sounds like an excellent idea. I bet others (most sleeping now, I think…) would agree.
706. 702 – I may not have talked about this “hidden message” theme before – the media (read: mostly the Oregonian) was absolutely convinced there was some “nugget” of information which they believed Eric had provided me during our original phone conversation/email contacts, which would be an “X marks the spot – the family is here” type of thing. They seemed certain we were hiding or attempting to cover something up, that we didn’t want the media to know.

     We finally had to explain to them (ad nauseum) that there was no “message” sent with the emails, just the map you’ve all now seen, along with some technical raw data that meant nothing to me, but I suspect was important to the technical experts such as Eric and Noah.
707. Hey Det Mike. hahaha yeah no hidden messages from me (49). I’m glad that report is finally out and all the facts are on the table.

     Our attorney did authorize the release of the RF map to the investigative report (the one done by Klamath County Sheriff). I glad that is out there now too, as it literally paints a picture of what there was to work with.
708. 706 – Thank you for explaining. Sad to say, I’m not surprised. Makes you wonder about the media sometimes. Of course, it’s wonderful that they put this story out there which led to the Denny’s sighting and Eric F getting involved and John Rachor searching, etc. But then there’s that other side – such a double edged sword.
709. So, RE: the mock MPERS and possible SAR scenario (on paper, or “screens” only, of course) – if the idea is tossed around and there seems to be some real interest in it, I would be happy to initiate and monitor the scenario at some point in the near future (a few weeks out maybe?). It could be at a pre-arranged time (not very real-world, but it would be critical for enough people to participate) on a pre-arranged date.

     What I would suggest would be an initial “alert” regarding a “situation,” with only limited information being provided. I would base it on an actual prior case I have personally handled which would not violate any confidentiality, of course.

     It would be up to the “team” to come up with their plan of action or assistance (which, I would recommend, having in place beforehand), and make suggestions for areas in which they could contribute.

     I would check in only periodically as would be the case in a real incident, as I and other investigators are required to actually be investigating during these events. It would be like a “test of the emergency broadcast system,” and could likely bring to immediate light the strengths and weaknesses of such involvement.

     The goal would be not only to test the theories many have suggested here (again, the chain of command and process should be planned out in advance, where at all possible), but also to test the viability of working such input into an actual time-sensitive scenario.

     And with all due respect, as I’ve said before, and as I know many of you already know, talking/typing is a whole different world than actually being there. But I think it would be a good test of the “Community Policing Broadcast System.”

     Let me know your thoughts over the next few days and I’ll check in to gauge the level of interest. Time to insert yourselves into your keyboard ideas, I think.
710. Eric – did you send me email recently, within past week?
711. Mike, I don’t belive I did… I know I started to put an email together but I don’t think I sent it. But, if you got some half written jibberish then I may have hit accidently hit send.
712. No, this was a complete email, kind of generic, but the email address was like an incorrect, phonetic spelling of your last name. I answered, generically, but asked for a confirming piece of info no one but you and I would know, since some have tried to contact me during this entire incident, believe it or not, pretending to be other people.

     Never heard back, and now I know why. Good to know, and just confirms the reason I asked for specific info which the person obviously could not provide. Checks & balances are a good thing.
713. 709 Det Mike. Something I’ve been very curious about is how often in real life MPERS does gleaning location data from cell records happen?
714. Yes, I definately recieved that email and inteded to email back. I use that address at home…and at home I get very distracted. My kids are always trying to take my computer away…and the six year old is VERY persistant!
715. 713 – In the greater scheme of things – not terribly often. And it is important to note that, with respect to general MPERS cases, I probably handle a few more than most agencies in Oregon, just by the nature of our local population (i.e. approximately 400-450 MPERS adult cases per year).

     However, in those cases where cell phone data (i.e. tower tracking, GPS locating, in/out call history…the whole gamut) is critical, it can make or break a case and result in real life or death situations. I know this particular case revolved around a lost and endangered family, but many situations are not the same as this one.

     People who are medically endangered (and who have cell phones) or have mental health emergencies, including being suicidal, as well as people who are missing because they have been the victim of kidnap or abduction… in those cases, we commonly will attempt to gather data from our 24/7 LE representatives at the various cell companies, to get whatever they can legally provide us from their records.

     We (PPB MPERS Unit) have a pretty good idea of the capabilities/limitations of each company, in exigent circumstances, although it is often a dynamic situation with emerging technologies, as you well know.

     I would estimate we have used cell phone data, in one form or another (including location info)… maybe a couple dozen times or more in the past year, but that’s just a guestimate.
716. 714 – oh good, glad it was you then. No problem about not emailing back – mine is 4 yrs old. Just wanted to be sure it was actually you. And I appreciated the offer re: technical education, etc. Definitely something we should talk about further in the near future.
717. 708 – So true, Maggie. I, for one, am always hesitant to speak with the media when I know they seem to be on a witchhunt. However, like you said, there’s a balance, of course. And we definitely wanted to acknowledge the excellent assistance and participation from folks such as Denny’s witnesses, Eric and Noah, Rachor, et al.
718. Pics – jocosar –

     Wow! Thanks much!!! I went through them a few times and I still can’t believe they went the way they did. There was definitely plenty of warnings on both routes (Galice Access Rd. & Peavine ). They must have been really tire to not have seen them. One thought I had was if those faded signs on 34-8-36 falsely made them think they were getting closer to Agness by going that way. Hard to tell from the pics. There’s no way they could have thought Galice was 4 miles away if they saw all those signs. James must have thought thhhe creek would be a shortcut to Galice, as has been speculated before. When walking he might have seen the signs and realized how far it was, and thought to try the creek instead.

     A sign by the gate, that was allegedely supposed to be locked, saying, “Warning: Dangerous logging road. No coastal traffic – Turn around now. Use FS-23 instead” Put it right by the gate. I see there is plenty of room to turn around there unless my eyes are fooling me.
719. I can understand the hesitancy to speak to the media when they seem to be on a witchhunt but that is how witchhunts continue and intensify.

     I continue to be struck by a lack of managerial oriented documents during SAR activities and an overall lack of coordination.

     To put things into a somewhat absurd example:
     The SAR Incident Commander does not need to know the names of the various dogs but does need to have available a simple “Dogs Available” list as well as an indication of whether they are ‘ground scent’, air scent, or cadaver dogs. I seem to have the impression that too much of the report was generated from interviews simply because there were never any interim managerial reports generated during the search. No one knew Dogs Available or Helicopters Available or Fixed-Wings Available or Vehicles Available or Snowmobiles Available. No one had any summaries and no one really documented what search missions were ongoing and what search team reports were yet to be received. No one seems to really have known what vehicles were being used, what communications gear the individual teams had with them, whether they had specific radio reporting times they had been given, what areas had been over-flown, which road segments had been scouted.

     It seems there was a great deal of activity, some of it was very physically demanding and hazardous. Some of the activity was far more planning dependent than others: Helicopter missions required fuel, crew exhaustion, daylight and airspace matters to be considered whereas ground searches were a little easier to plan. Some activities required ‘deployment time’ whereas others did not. I do not want to downgrade anyones actions or downplay their courage and the dangers they faced, but it does seem that several weak points in the system have been detected.
720. Congratulations on the purchase of ‘three used vehicles’ rather than ‘one new prime-mover’. It takes courage to buck those pencil-pushing paper shufflers who think that local people don’t know what will best serve their local needs.
721. Cell phone “Ping” Data.

     “…December 17th Oregonian said “The BLM road shooting off Bear Camp Road was one of the few areas where a cell signal could reach and a road existed,” and now I look at the map, that sounds like a very simplistic statement made by the reporters. …”
     I’ve neither the vision acuity or the computer ability to deal with these map images well. Can anyone give me a textual discussion of how much territory the Edge cell phone map showed was in line-of-sight with the particular cell phone tower AND was on any sort of road. How many miles of actual roadway (not adjacent slopes or scenery) was in line of site of the tower?
722. Det. Mike, I like your mock MPERS and possible SAR scenario idea. I also think a plan should be thought out prior to trying it. perhaps we should start brainstorming about what that plan would look like.
723. Also, Eric, I wasnt here much last night but I wanted to thank you too. Thanks for coming and participating. Thanks also for being open minded to my email. I really am thankful to all you guys who were a part of the search being here and participating. thank you.
724. 709 – Mike, mock scenario…I am all for it! I will be in Portland on Feb 22nd. Any chance we can do it together? That is a Friday. I will be there on Sat the 23rd as well, but I am taking my husband to the Nickelback concert that night for his Christmas present. I would have to be finished early afternoon. I think that would be so much fun! You have my email information and my phone number…let’s do it!
725. 719 – Fools Gold, I think I may have a comment to your post, but I need some more coffee first. I will be back for that though…
726. 719 – Fools Gold – regarding search data and procedures, etc..

     I think it is important to know the specific instructions given to the OSSA team for this investigation. I cannot tell you word for word, but I can give you an overall sense of direction they were given.

     The purpose of this report was to identify specific issues in the coordination of the search efforts early on. It was also to focus on air assets. These are the two issues that were questioned most in this case.

     What it was not specifically intended to examine is the search itself. What I mean is, this was meant to be more of a birdseye view of multi agency coordination, rather than a tactical review. Some tactical information was included, but not nearly all of it was included. For instance, all of Josephine County’s tactical paperwork was sent to the detectives, but none of it was included. I think that there is probably much more detail of things that occurred during this search that was not addressed, but that was intentional. That was not the purpose of the report. I wish that we could have gotten that deep into detail, but I would imagine the release would have taken another month! There were also some quotes by me in my interview that weren’t exactly how they were used in context. Like the one about nobody tracking resources or debriefing teams…there were questions and follow up answers that if shown, would have explained that better. I can assure you that teams were tracked in the field, and the majority were debriefed upon return.
     One thing that would be shown is that we did not ever have a full staff running all night long. There was staff there, but they did not do plans all throughout the evening. That would have been extremely beneficial for us when we arrived the next morning. I assure you, that this will be addressed and done differently next time.
727. I have a question…has anyone seen or heard of a report from SF? I have never seen that report referenced. That would be the originating agency report, right?
728. well, apparently I am the only one awake here this morning…everyone stayed awake way too long last night!
729. Hi Jocosar

     I am awake (of course it helps being two hours ahead of you). I’ve been patiently reading.

     Of course I come to all this with a bit of a different perspective too. The cell map is actually pretty much what I expected and I do understand its an obscure kind of thing to people in general.

     It also does demonstrate something though, that I am not trying to rub in 🙂 in fact I am very thankful to Eric and Noah for doing this and being here, and bringing this all to light.

     But it does demonstrate the need for a legend, scale, metadata and some good source explanation/text in a map.

     Thats just my little bit I feel a personal responsiblity to share though if I were with you all in person it might get some food thrown at me for saying that kind of thing.

     Anyway, and I also expect your gis people probably overlaid (or rather underlaid) the image onto maps, or they could have, had there been a protocol in place for this at the time or had it been asked of them.

     I also have to ask Eric, if there is a way to export the data (not the roads or background info but just the polygons) as a shapefile or other file that could easily (and then more accuratley) be overlaid in other mapping programs.

     I know Eric did the map in a software program I am not familiar with but the look of it is similiar to what I would come up with if I were doing a smiliar type of map. I also work with hydrologists who use other software (rockworks, surfer, etc) and they are able to export data as shapefiles so I can overlay stuff (though sometimes its a real pain – the image would be good enough if it had points like roads for georeferencing just not as fast and accurate as a quick import)it would be cool if the cell engineer could just do the data file with the polygons and then just e mail the file to the gis guys and instantly they could import the polygon file and map it — imagine that!!

     Anyway, thats just some stuff to think about for the future, if its something that will be done again. I hope it doesn’t come off as totally annoying and snivelling.

     Thanks to Eric, Noah, Det Mike, Sara and all of you for all you have done and for being here to share your knowledge and experience with this case.
730. The pictures at the car site suggest why James thought they were close to Galice. One sign is ‘Galice Road BLM 34-8-36’. Add that to the limited detail on an ODOT scale map, and it is not surprising that he would guess 4 miles rather than 30 miles.

     If I drove into that area with only the ODOT map, during the day, I think I could deduce that the road was leading me north and west toward the river, and general downriver, away from Galice. But, at 1am on a dark, rainy night, my perception of the route and lay of the land would not be so good. I doubt, for example, that they saw the Rogue River off to their right.

     The wood signs further back could also have been confusing, though I doubt if they saw those on the drive in. There is one that say ‘?’ ‘Galice 23 ->’, but I think that is east of where James left the road. If only he had stayed on the road this far.

     Further east is another wood one with ‘Access Road’, ”,”

     ‘County line’ on these signs must be the higher road marked ‘BLM 34-9-7’ on current maps, Maggie’s unlikely alternative.

     At least there are signs pointing the way out, even if they are old, faded wood ones that use names rather than the BLM numbers.

     paulj
731. Laurie

     Thanks for the invite!! That certainly does sound like fun!! I might even be more nearby by summer-time. I could even be an evil Californian again by that time since my job search seems to keep taking me that way! We’ll see if they let me in! I’ll bring the special coffee we were talking about…or…not. I promise I wont be rich enough to buy anyones house with cash for quite a few years though! (I have to atleast think it COULD happen! keeps me going…)

     As for my name. Well, I was just telling someone over e mail that there are only 2 of me in the country (first and last name) so I am sensitive about my name as it could lead pretty quickly to my identity and other things on the web given my equally obscure occupation 8)

     I’m not worried about most of you here knowing who I am, more lurkers and people out there with unscupulous ideas. I have noticed I have gotten a lot more e mails from Nigeria since I posted my e mail here! (usually I get no spam at all at that address as I hardly ever use it).
732. 726 Search data and procedures…

     If the focus was more a ‘multi agency cooperation’ viewpoint there still seems to be a noticeable lack of any references to ‘status reports’ or ‘information transfer’ between those agencies. In this particular search the initial focus spanned several states and soon narrowed to a specific area. There should be some way of getting the data and the updates into a standardized format so as to make those operational transfers go more smoothly.

     Maps and export files.
     Sounds like it would be a good idea to have the various polygons also available as a separate exported file with a few basic geographic references to aid in image registration. Remember the trick used in old medical image files. That dime or paperclip up in the corner sure made registration of the images simple. Transfering the overlay to maps of different scale would be simpler then. Upthread there was a post that different coordinate systems were in use.
733. I have another search…be back later!
734. Fools Gold

     Yes….if the file can be exported WITH the projection file (Which holds the coordinate system and projection) in a shapefile format(or a few other kinds of format, I prefer shapfile for this kind of thing)…thats half the battle, done. *poof* they like to say at work — I push the button and its done (sometimes it happens that way).
735. Good morning folks! I’ll be bouncing in and out today.
736. An article today about the Kim story and the evolving field of using cell phones to locate someone:
     http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1169268909186240.xml&coll=7
737. QUESTION FOR ERIC F OR DET MIKE: In the report, in an effort to explain the initial lack of urgency over the cell phone ping, they rather vaguely reference past incidents where cell phone data has led searchers astray, rather than helping. How true is this ?…and if it is true, how big a problem is it – or has it been in the past? Is it a problem easily rectified with the right technological know-how, or are there inherent limitations/problems with using cells in this manner ??
738. 737…I’m neither of the two persons to whom the question was directed, yet I’d like to provide my usual two-cents worth:

     I’ve felt a few times in reading the ‘vague references to past incidents’ that it was indeed provided as an excuse or potential excuse. I’ve also felt that there was a glaring absence of the distinction between misleading cell phone data and SAR’s assumptions about cell phone data. Cell phones evolve. Handshaking techniques evolve too. A cell phone voice link is maintained via electronic handshaking and ‘voting’ as to which of multiple towers is best receiving a signal. The ‘best signal’ is on the handshaking frequency and this is not necessarily the ‘best voice signal’. There is also a built in procedure for some latency of signal-quality determination. (You might imagine how annoying a medical device would be if there were no latency and the patient was right at the border where an alarm would be triggered). Just as one wants to avoid repeated multiple alarms, one wants to avoid repeated multiple handoffs when the two signals are pretty much equal but one is indeed marginally superior. So the “handling cell-tower” is never to be considered the “closest cell tower” or the “optimal cell tower”, simply an indication of probable location. Older cell phones, older technology, terrain, I imagine a lot of things can show that a cell phone ‘ping’ is not a perfect answer.
     The old ‘bumper beepers’ were not perfect either but they sure made surveillance easier. GPS beepers are much better!

     I would think that most people would consider a cell phone ping to be of extreme importance in this situation and that most people would bear in mind that there might be radio wave propagation factors to bear in mind. However, in an urban area with lots of cell towers the primary cell tower might not be the closest to the phone. In a rural area, just how many chances are there that the primary cell tower handling a call is not also the closest cell tower?

     Anyway, I too await responses from EricF and DetMike.
739. 729 Georreferencing (see the last part of post 603) for a cheap an easy way to do this.

     Mapper, the “polygons” file is in a .tab file–Map Info based. However we can export into other formats. I’m not sure if a shape-file can be done directly I’d have to see on Monday. I am VERY interested in converting our files into a gis format that can be easily shared. We do on occasion get request during fire season to provide a coverage map in the area of the fire.

     I would be very willing to “practice” exchanging map data with any agency. Once a workable format is worked out, I could then share that info with my fellow engineers. With that said, weren’t there like 8 different government agencies involved with this case? Does that mean there were 8 different coordinate and map systems involved? (I’m being a bit facetious here do drive the point)–an exchangeable gis standard needs to be recognized, if possible, and in my opinion.

     In there fire scenerio it seems that there is often times confusion and changing of who’s in charge and therefore who’s using what program to make the “fire maps” that the may want to overlay RF coverage with. A standard format would be most excellent. Again, Google Earth is a good quick way (overlay a .bmp and scale by hand using the roads for georeferencing). Then, the opacity of coverage over terrain can be continually adjusted by hand as needed.
740. 735- Joe – I like that, about “bouncing in and out today”!
     It sounds cute (in a good way)! 😀 And it also made be think of bouncing ducks (which also seemed cute) for some reason!
741. By Saturday night, the Roseburg tip had already reduced the search area to OR 42 and south. The major highways had already been searched. That still left open the Eden Valley route and all its spurs, as well as the Bear Camp route and its spurs. The road south from Powers may still have been on the table. The through roads in these areas had been cleared, but not the spurs.

     As a first cut, the cell data specifies a 26 mile sector W and SW of Glendale. That does not do much to reduce the search area. It says that at 1:30am they were probably on the east side of the mountains, not down in Eden Valley or closer to Powers or Agness, but there was no clue as to far they had driven after that time.

     The RF map highlights likely spots within that sector, ones where terrain height and orientation increased the chances of getting a signal. But it evidently was not the kind of information that the searchers had ever dealt with before, hence the request to have Eric come to the meeting.

     I suspect Edge has a tower in the Grants Pass area. So even in this rural area, it is not just simple matter of using the nearest tower. A phone on a ridge facing ESE might have made contact with the Grants Pass tower. The same sort of urban issues of shadows and reflections apply here, only at longer distances.

     paulj
742. Eric,

     Thats so very cool of you to take this so seriously (As I expect you probably dont get paid for it).

     Well, as far as GIS, as long as you can export the coordiante/projection file with it in a format like a shapfile, or geodatabase it would be just fine (we can then project it to fit whatever we need).

     If not, all that would be neccessary is, when e mailing it to an agency with gis – to state what coordinate system it was done in and the gis person can then set it up and project it into whatever the maps are in that they are using.

     Very cool!

     I am not familiar with mapifno myself, but am pretty sure that there is probably a way to export into a shapefile or geodatabase, or some other files that most experiences gis people can convert into one of those.

     I am not in the frame of mind right now to think of them all, but can give you a list of good file types later that would work if its an option for export.

     Thanks Eric!

     ps….its not that every agency has their own coordinate system…its that every agency has data from all over the place, historical data, and its in all kinds of differnt cooridate systems. Then we take it all and project it to whatever we want to look at it in………so really the single most important thing when sending geographic data digitally — is that that the person who sends it knows what the data source was *created* in. Then, we can register that and project it to anything we want to project it in…

     As for standards though..yeah…dont get me started 🙂
743. Eric or Mapper

     this is from the interview of the Carson pilots:

     “Sunday afternoon they got the cell tower information and confirmation of credit card use at Denny’s in Roseburg. This information narrowed the search down to a 30 degree arc out of Glendale. They did outlines and overlays on maps for probability of locations. The cell tower information was the turning point in their search.”

     Cmt 652 Eric,

     “Bamadad, the “90″ degree SW “arc” would be roughly between 305 true north and 220 true north…that gives an idea of what direction and beamwidth the Glendale “Z” sector was pointed.”

     **************************

     Looks like that particular Z sector has roughly an 85 degree beamwidth (305-220= 85). How is that refined to a smaller beamwidth, if possible, like the 30 degree arc? Is that possible? Not clear to me how that is done, as Carson seems to have calculated.

     Would the map “intensity” vary due to time of day/night of the signal?

     Would the map “intensity” vary due to the weather at the time of the signal?

     Would the map “intensity” vary due to the presence or absence of tree growth? For instance, after a large fire, presumably a large area may becomes cell phone capable because the trees are gone. I guess the absence of leaves, brush or vegetation would surely affect the map in its depiction of cell phone pockets.

     Thanks.
744. 739 Good points. Those are all things to be considered and we (the can you hear me now guys of the world) basically do this everyday–though we are not looking FOR location, but AT a location. Therefore, the reverse can be done–sometimes.

     I believe it is very important when LE acquire the cell phone data, they request help in interpreting it. If its a life or limb situation the cell phone company will probably do its best to get to “an expert” that can help. If LE is merely chasing a bad guy–sorry your pretty much on your own. The exact data asked for (or demanded via a warrant) will be merely handed over. AND, as you pointed out exact data does not equal exact location. It does take a pretty in depth knowledge of the particular system.

     As far as misleading information…I bet the first thing Det Mike might say is the location points to where the phone is, or was, and not necessarily where the person is…but I’m sure they realize that. (one quick anecdote here: when I was working with the detectives last month I was being asked many questions some of which I’d never even thought of before. I told the detective: “Man, you sure ask a lot of good questions!” and the detective replied: “Well, I am A DETECTIVE!”

     Anyway, yes there are many things to consider such as the best server, overlay underlay, biasing between cells, time advance… bla bla bla.

     I will add that IF a phone is currently registered on the system (powered on an in coverage), in general, a more precise location may be determined as compared to merely looking at the call detail records.
745. Eric

     ps. do you know if the polygons are actually a raster or vector data type? that would change the kind of export file types and imports…I imagine it might be raster.

     8)
746. Eric…actually…I have can import MIF files….is that a map info file?

     just checking some things out here…
747. Remember the ‘old days’ wherein people would export a file in pure ascii just in case the recipient’s various word processing or other programs could not deal with some proprietary coding scheme? It sounds like things haven’t changed all that much!
748. Fools gold…yeah, I get a lot of things as .txt files…..it makes things harder for me but its still workable!
749. well anyway, just so its out there.

     It says in my trusty ArcCatalog that I fan import MIF (Map Info Interchange file) into a shapefile here on my end…so if the cell engineer could export in that format…looks like the simplest way to go, to me.

     Now, most agencies that use GIS are using ESRI. So this method would probably work with all ESRI based GIS sytems (providing the conversion goes smoothly or it can be exported as such….) and that would be, most agencies with GIS.

     But PS.. again, Eric I fully agree that they should still be in contact with the cell engineer, definitley!!!!! Doing something like this should not remove that person and their personal knowledge of the data from the process.
750. Summary of recent news reports.

     Gov. Ted Kulongoski has created a state task force to review what Oregon should do to improve search and rescue efforts.

     The panel will give the governor its recommendations by March 31.

     The governor appointed Joe O’Leary, the governor’s senior policy adviser for public safety, to head the task force.
751. http://www.ktvz.com/story.cfm?nav=news&storyID=18116

     More details on Gov’s TF.
752. 743 Weather and day/night does not really affect the signal. Terrain does. Our program does take the terrain and the clutter into consideration.

     I think we need to be careful not to over analyze the vectors, beam-widths and directions. A literal interpretation of the data is that the “ping” could have come from anywhere on the map-fact. Weighing the data with knowledge of which areas are the “best server” and most importantly where the coverage overlaps with a road, and the knowledge that the ping happened at 1:30 AM and the Kims probably still had gas to keep driving, starting points and probable areas were determined resulting in a more focused area than the literal coverage.

     Carson (as did everyone) had a HUGE job to do. And they did it quite well. As we know, they weren’t looking for a red car on the salt flats, but rather a silver car in the snow. AND the very real possibility that they went off the road–thus the areas searched had to be searched quite throughly.
753. 752/Eric F: Your point has been made many times, but it bears repeating, especially in light of those critical of how long it took to find the car from the air. The forest canopy was dense; the car a color that blended well with snow. Most critical, though, was that at ANY point, on ANY road, it would have been an extremely easy thing for them to slide off the edge and over the embankment. Sara & Emily could say more specifically, but I suspect this is a high probability event, especially on that road in winter.
754. 736 Paul, excellent article. Everyone should read this. (I never thought I’d see the day when I’d give a compliment to the Oregonian–but in my opinion they did very good on this one).

     Quote from article posted on 736:
     “Michael Broom, a Cingular spokesman, said Friday that he could not comment on the conversation between Cingular and Martin. But Broom said, “We’re always committed to working with and supporting law enforcement in situations like this, particularly if a person’s life is at risk, and would do whatever we possibly could to try to assist.””

     This is huge. Also, CTIA president Steve Largent is aware of how cell phones played a roll in this situation. He is in a position to make positive changes, and he’s never been one do drop the ball.

     800,000 missing people per year!?! (as per the Oregonian article) Wow,though I bet a fair percentage of those “missing” don’t want to be found. Det Mike…can you take a swag at that?

     Many lessons were learned in the Kim case. And with application of the lessons, and with increased awareness of the Kim case, somewhere, sometime, somehow a life will be saved. And then another, and another.

     I’m going to venture to say, with all due respect to the Kims–because James died, others will live.
755. CMT 752,

     Thanks, Eric. What you explained makes it much clearer.
756. Mapper- I too received and email today from nigeria. never gotten one before. but Ive only had the one, though I am sure now more are to follow…
757. Paul,

     You’re right. I saw and posted this earlier in 498. The OSSA set forth the four possibilities (page 11 of 23). (Foul play, stranded, on a frolic, and car crash)

     I thought one key underreported part of the OSSA report was that the most likely circumstance was:

     “They might have been the victims of a car crash where their vehicle left the roadway and off into brush, a ravine or into a body of water where it was not easily seen by other motorists or searchers. This was by far the most likely scenario.”
758. I question why this is ‘most likely’ or is viewed as being ‘most likely’.

     I know it has happened. I know it has even happened and gone undetected in areas where there is open desert with one and only one place where as crash can remain hidden from plain view.

     I’m not disputing that going off-road into dense foliage in a crash takes place. People skid into a guard rail and for some reason the guard rail does not restrain the vehicle but aids it in becoming airborne and the vehicle goes off into dense foliage becoming invisible to passersby. It happens. Why though is this viewed as ‘likely’ much less ‘most likely’. I would view ‘most likely’ as ‘stranded somewhere’ rather than ‘crashed into dense foliage, all occupants trapped’.

     Anyone have statistics to cite?
759. If they had gone off the road and rolled, the dark underside of the car could have been visible. A searcher shouldn’t concentrate just on the silver color. A chance reflection from a window might be the first clue. In a heavily forested area, a disturbance in the brush might be move visible than the car itself. In a recent case near Crescent City, it was debris on the road that first caught someone’s eye.

     Another possibility is that they slid onto the side of the road, and were hidden under the forest canopy. Finley was stuck in a snowbank beside the road, but I never read whether his truck would have been visible from the air.

     As it was, tracks in the snow on a relatively open part of 34-8-36 were the first clue that the helicopter pilot saw. It was only when he followed the road towards its end that he came upon the car. And if I’m not mistaken, he saw Kati before he saw the car.

     paulj
760. 758: FG / I suspect Sara or Emily can shed some light on the statistics. As an aside, there are very few guardrails up there and plenty of places where inclines off the edge are breathtaking, to say the least.
761. SF AfterActionReport?

     I’ve not heard anything about any such report. SFPD was the originating agency and probably just put a ‘closing memorandum’ into their file.

     I do wonder however if any agency having received the original messages assumed that SFPD was coordinating something. I’m not sure when Oregon State Police took over but it seems it was fairly prompt that the various clues pointed to Oregon and then to Southern Oregon and then to ‘From freeway to Gold Beach’.

     I think everyone who watches TV knows a missing persons report gets filed at place of residence and is then handled by a department that may be playing a greater role. I’m not sure how accurate it is, but I do think that is indeed the truth.
762. It is possible that after a snow storm most cars appear to be white irrespective of any official color being a high-contrast one.
763. Looked at the clock and thought it was 2am, so thought I’d stop by.

     737 – We’ve had a few issues with cell tracking (related to towers/pings, etc.) given terrain issues. Once had a suicidal guy driving in Columbia River Gorge (actually turned out he was parked) and a cell signal bouncing strongly off a tower in Washington State (directly across the Columbia River, although about 15 miles away), when there was a perfectly good tower less than 3 miles away from him on the Oregon side, where he was located.

     What you all have to remember, and this a BIG point in real-world applications, is that this is the FIRST case where I’ve had access to a map of the sort Eric and Edge provided. Let me repeat – it is a FIRST that I’ve ever even heard of, and I consider myself fairly adept at currently technological capabilities, given that I deal with them fairly often (at least maybe 24+ times during past year, for example).

     Secondly, for my agency’s particular applications, the person we’re looking for is usually not stranded, per se, but is generally mobile (i.e. medically endangered or mentally challenged person who still needs us to track and find them under dire circumstances). Not too many people become “stranded” in metropolitan areas, not to the point of exigency requests to cell phone companies.

     I have worked numerous cases wherein we’ve had to track Portland residents outiside of Portland (again, still usually mobile, versus stationary), and what is important to remember is a few things:

     1) Most cell companies reps who provide LE the 24/7 exigency info do not have the capability to provide details of those records, beyond possibly the location and direction of signal from a particular tower (and much of the info we have access to is not “real-time.” Some companies consider historical data 2-3 hours old as “real-time” for their purposes. Don’t forget, as Eric and others have stated, the cell companies don’t track the info for LE purposes, but generally for billing and usage purposes.

     2) Murphy’s Law states that no cell tech engineer will ever be available from a particular cell co. at the moment it is most needed, even during some business hours (which is why resources such as those of you with technical expertise who would be willing to make yourselves available to LE such as myself to answer questions or provide technical advice – after verifying your employment, credentials, etc. – beforehand – would be welcomed).

     3) Very few of the MPERS type cases related to cell phone searching involve this type of technical examination – very few, which is why, I assume, more aren’t well-versed in their application (especially in urban areas, such as Portland and San Fran).

     4) 95+ % (est.) of all cell ph records are used by LE to determine last best contact with someone, mostly, to have someone to go to in determining if the missing person made mention of their plans, destination,etc., to one of the last people spoken with. This doesn’t involve any technical applications whatsoever, really.
764. I’ve been over Bear Camp about 30 times. I’ve personally seen 3 cars go over the edge (there are no guardrails for the record).

     !) It was late April of 2003 or 04..not sure what year, but I do remember the season very well. It wasn’t exactly Bear Camp but just across the river on the road to Marial. I ran into searcher on my way back from a camping trip. One of the occupants apperently wandered back to Glendale. I never heard if the ever they found the car. The survivor didn’t know exactly where they were when they went off.

     2) was 03 or 04 and it was on Bear Camp. A passing motorist told me about it and said it was about 1 mile down the road. Even knowing where it was, and seeing skid marks, I had to practicly crawl to see the vehicle. The occumant had allready been transported–not sure of the outcome. The car was about 100 feet off the road.

     3) in 04 late September it was at night and I noticed skid marks going off the road on a curve. In this case the car was easily visible from the road (about 25 feet down). I went down and noted the engine was still warm but no one there. A few miles later I picked up the guy who was walking along the road, who was uninjured. He was lucky as his crash was cushened by the dense foilage and small trees. He said he was going to send a tow truck, or have his dad winch it out…this incodent as perhaps many other do not get reported.

     I’d be curious too on the stats. But, again, how many “off the roads” get reported?
765. 763 – Det Mike, you are about 12 hours early 😉 Thank you for your input on the issue of cell tracking. I was surprised that this was truly the first time you’d seen this type of technology used. I do hope that, as others have said, as a result of this situation more of this kind of technology can be used in the future. It sounds like there’s quite a way yet to go to make it more the norm, but what a great tool. Technology is simply amazing.
766. 761 – Don’t assume anything, please, about agencies’ reporting practices (you’d be incorrect, by the way, although I will not comment on another agency’s business), or about TV versions of anything, including MPERS reporting. Every agency has different policies, and most agencies will accept a MPERS report for their own residents and forward to/request assistance from outside agencies, which might have more appropriate access to investigate in person. However, multiple agencies commonly split up duties to cover twice as much (or 3x, 4x, etc.) ground as appropriate.

     In this case, the originating agency carried (by agreement) primary responsibility for tracking cell and financial records, augmented by support from Oregon agencies, as requested, appropriate or necessary. Many local interviews were handled locally (Portland folks contacted by PPB usually). Having a central repository for information is important.
767. Speaking of technology, this stuck out to me in the link Paul mentioned in 736 from today’s Oregonian article:

     “Inspector Angela Martin, the San Francisco police detective assigned to find the Kims when they disappeared in November, works in a department where most employees do not have work computers or e-mail accounts, said her supervisor, Capt. Marsha Ashe. Martin writes her reports out longhand, Ashe said.”

     I was surprised by this in a city as large as San Francisco. Portland sounds quite a bit more “current.”
768. 767/Maggie: I could not fathom that either…I know local municipalities have funding issues, but it’s not like reasonably priced computers came on the market just yesterday. The efficiency gain alone justifies the modest cost. Unbelievable !!
769. 767 / 768 – Well believe it. Detectives in our Homicide/Assault Detail JUST got computers on their desks within the past 2 years – prior, there were 4-6 computers for almost 20 people to share – when they were working (no offense intended towards any of our hard-working/over-worked Data Processing folks). You wouldn’t think $$ would be such a factor, but cities are still businesses, so it’s a fact of daily life and one of our greatest sources of frustration. Again – the real world.

     Just for a kicker – electronic reporting has been widely used in numerous agencies around ours for over 10 years – we’re the largest agency in the state and still do not have a working electronic reporting system. We’re still a paper system for the most part.
770. 769 Wow… On CSI they seem to have millions for the latest and greatest gadgets.

     What a difference between TV and real world. No wonder TV is so popular!
771. So true….when working for the military we were always like…this isn’t what we saw on alias!! (okay the other guy said that, I never watched alias)

     but, this is also why in many communities I have worked for, I have said its been hard for the gis people to integrate gis into the workflow of the police/fire depts. as they seem to have their own way of doing things much more than other departments… but, it all depends on the community, its been different everywhere I have worked.
772. 758-Fools Gold maybe an undiscovered wreck was viewed as most likely because it happens fairly regularly out here. Being stranded because you ran out of gas is usually resolved before much time goes by.
773. Hi all, Have not posted here I have followed this story and this blog intently, much to the dismay of my wife. I knew James Kim vaguely. I used to live in Albany, New York and I would occasionally go to New York City to visit a friend of mine from graduate school, Lane. At that time James was a friend of Lane and after I left New York state James was Lane’s roommate. We would hang out together in Lane’s aprtment in NYC. James was a great guy. He was always up for anything and was always in a great mood. After that I didn’t him until this last July where I saw him at wedding of a common friend in San Francisco. It was great to see him but he was completely focused on his two girls. I think he was really happy. This whole thing has completely floored me. I like everyone else, has played over these events dozens of times, I think in some way to change the outcome . I appreciate everyone keeping these thoughts alive as its been very therapeutic for me. I think back to when I was 10 years old in 1974 and my family took a trip from Hayward, CA (SF bay area) to see olympic peninsula rain forest. My mother and my two twin sisters (age 5) drove ahead to find a campground while my father, sister (age 8), and I were to hike 15 miles over a mountain pass to meet them. We had sneakers, shorts, and t-shirts. No backpack, no water etc., etc. After about 3 miles we were knee deep in the snow, could not see the trail and for the next four hours we kept climbing up a ridge. I didn’t have sunglasses so I was almost blind from the glare of the snow. My father insisted we continue climbing but I think he didn’t know where the trail was.. We did eventually find a trail but now we were wet, cold and hungry. It was late afternoon. We followed the trail and just as it was getting dark we passed below the snow line. I recognized the trail as the one we had come up on. We got back into the camp where we started about 10:00 p.m. and went into the laundromat as it was the warmest place. I later found out that the hike we were attempting was a 25 mile hike that usually takes 2-3 days with full hiking gear. My mother was frantic to find us and a search team had been sent out. In retrospect we made bad choices but I know that neither my mom or dad would have ever intentionally put us kids in harms way. It was just incomplete awareness of the situation. Its easy to look back at something and realize that mistakes have been made. I live in Hayward now, am married and have two boys, ages three and five. I think often about keeping them safe all the time but often look back and realize that I ahven’t always done that. We are imperfect beings in an imperfect world and those two events sometimes combine in a resonant fashion to make truly terrible things happen. I keep wishing that I could fix this terrible thing. I keep playing it over and over in my head hoping for the outcome to be different. I do appreciate this blog as it has given a chance to obtain closure. You are a great group of people and I am glad to be part of this community if only in a peripheral and tangential way.
774. Thank you so much for that Tim. It is always wonderful to hear from people who knew James, and it is good to know that this blog has even been helpful for people who may be reading along with us, but not posting much or at all themselves. I was really moved by what you shared. You are a part of this community, and now we know you’re there!

     I know what you mean about wishing you could fix this terrible thing, and hoping for a different outcome. I feel the same. It’s also why I am here.
775. For those getting the Nigerian emails: Next time you want to post an email in “public” you can do something like this: your email [at] yahoo . com (or whatever it may be). People will know what you mean, and the spammers can’t pick it up. (I made the mistake of posting my email on a message board in Korea while researching tae kwon do, and I am still getting spam in the Korean language 3 years later.)

     I haven’t read the report completely, but did read Kati’s perspective. I had never thought about the fact that she probably thought initially that James was responsible for the helicopters finding her. How horrible it must have been to learn that James had never arrived anywhere.
776. Thanks Joy, I had seen people do that and never knew why…duh, never put that together!

     Tim, thanks for joining us. I am sorry for your loss. Since we have been talking about this for so long I have almost become clinincal about the whole thing. Thanks for sharing your history and story.
777. Good Evening, I think I have just about caught up, I see JoCoSAR got the other pictures up…..
778. Hi, everyone,

     Just returned to work Tuesday after a lengthy absence, so have been scurrying to catch up and read the report and comments, wow! So much to cover. Such good analysis and comments on JD, and I thought the report did give much more info. and insight than we had. To those who thought that the report would be fairly useless, good old boy-one hand washes the other stuff, I’m curious how you feel about the objectivity, etc. now that you’ve had a chance to read it?
779. 778 – Hi Madeleine! I’ve wondered where you’ve been. About the OSSA report, I thought it seemed fairly objective overall, especially where it included the interviews. I was glad that they did not go with just the review itself but showed how they got there. The mention of some of the politics behind how the operation went added credibility, too, in my opinion. There was definitely more information than I expected, and I thought they did a great job compiling things and adding the timelines and so forth. Happy reading 🙂
780. Good luck in the new search JoCoSAR!!!!!!

     Hope you find him.

     -EOCRocks
781. (773) Tim, great post…thanks for sharing.
782. Hi, Maggie, I agree, I thought it was credible and objective, not perfect, but a good representation of what happens when multiple agencies intermittently work together to handle emergent situations. Due to the notoriety of this incident, I’m optimistic that some changes in communications and deployment of resources can occur, along with reviewing some of the map and sign issues. While I no longer feel that the markings at “the” intersection were crucial to what happened, they need improvement. Lots to keep reading and digest!
783. EOCRocks huh?????
784. inside joke.
785. http://www.happynews.com/news/1162007/radio-transmitters-touted-help-hikers.htm

     NPS to test these small radio transmitters for hikers up in its Mt.McKinley National Park. Project Lifesavers.

     A search-and-rescue group’s wristwatch-size radio transmitters have helped track missing Alzheimer’s patients and autistic children.

     Interesting fairly cheap technology, which seems to have remarkable success now used in 40 states by over 530 organizations.

     Despite the name of this website, which is amazing “Happy News”, it’s an AP article and long time members of the JD blog know we can trust the AP more than our Mothers.
786. Mapper, Maggie, anyone who is google earth savvy I need help! Can you tell me how I can enter UTM to plot or find coordinates on Google Earth?? NOT LAT AND LONG
787. Why could’t we have something like this in our cell phones that has its own little battery and is activated when calling 911 or something? Seems like it would not add much weight.

     Eric anyone else? (my Idea! if you use it I get a free phone!!!! Unless you make millions and then you have to share) 😉

     Laurie
788. Tim, cmt 773

     welcome and thanks for the remembrance of your friend.

     This whole story has captured many of us since the beginning. It touches so many facets of the human experience, parents, children, family elders, nature, technology, government, personal responsibility, media, police, volunteers and on and on.

     So when I got lost today in discussions of azimuths and bandwidth and paragons, you brought it right back to what brought me here– family, friends, loss and hope.

     Thanks.
789. 786 – RRR I’m not sure – might need the paid version? Will this converter work to just convert to Lat/Long that GE will take?

     http://www.cellspark.com/UTM.html
790. Under options of GE, you can choose the coordinates, lat/lon (d/m/s or decimal) or UTM) .

     paulj
791. Thanks, I think they are just going to by the $20 verison….. Everything I was seeing said it needed to be the “upgraded” version
792. Hello eocrocks..I know who it is!! spicedrum??
793. Hey all! I am still on search..making assignments for tomorrow. Trying to make GE work well for us. Already using so many different things on this search from lessons learned on last!
794. Would this help?

     http://www.zonums.com/utmflyer.html
795. I have the most recent version (4.0) of the free Google Earth, and the UTM option is there under Tools | Options
796. 790- but when you want to add a place marker Paulj it is still in lat Long
797. We need to be able to put UTM in when we are putting a place marker down on the map….yes this is real time search stuff now 🙂
798. I think the UTM under options just shows the UTM at the bottom of the screen when that option is chosen. I do not know in the free version if you can enter UTM. The utmflyer link above might work – never tried it.
799. 778. Don’t think as much of it as others here, am still catching up, both reasons why I haven’t posted. Though report not as bad as feared, not as good as hoped.
800. Ok, here is a UTM that I need plotted on GE

     10T459294E, 4708824N

     Datum is NAD27

     Someone tell me, without a paid version, and without using a converter, what that is close to.
801. Cmt 787, Laurie ( I wish we both could share the patent, but…)

     I think something called wireless “enhanced 911” is gradually being rolled out in our cell phones and in cell phone technology in the US.

     I think the wristwatch works with radio signals and is easier to find, once SAR is alerted to look for the signal. The first is a pretty good article cited here before.

     http://www.travelbygps.com/articles/tracking.php

     There is also a wiki article on e911.
802. Without a converter, I wouldn’t be able to guess. Can your GIS guy help? Anyone else know?
803. I should be able to figure this out without GIS dude.
804. It’s a GE software problem…not general mapping problem. I know right where it is, I can plot it on other maps..I am just trying to figure out how to use GE.
805. Thats by Hog Creek, at the end of Thornbrook Dr. do you see the four ponds??
806. 787 Excellent idea Laurie! Had you thought of that a few years ago you’d probably be a multi millionaire. Someone beat you to it, and there are phones that have a GPS chip installed. When dialing 911 the exact location is given to the 911 operators.
807. Back to assignments…be back later.
808. try this…

     42.5307270661820

     -123.49565314162629
809. Looks like about Morrisons Lodge…
810. Thanks Eric, its no that we can’t convert, its that we just want an easy way to plog on GE without having to convert, we want it to just do UTM when putting placemarkers down.
811. 805 – RRR, I do see the 4 ponds. I just don’t think the free version lets you enter in UTM. You can do the Tools/Options setting to show UTM instead of Lat/Long at the bottom of the GE image, but I don’t think it actually lets you enter the info that way unless it’s the paid version.
812. So does anyone have the “paid” verison that could tell me it does what I need before I go and fork out $40 bucks…..
813. (808) Eric, what did you use specifically for Northing and Easting and finally Zone?

     I am getting a slightly different result.
814. I got pretty much where Eric got, but had to change display to UTM, plotted it, then looked at properties of that mark. Backwards way of getting there – Plus or Pro might let you enter directly. Plus version lets you connect GPS unit directly to pull in data.

     Glen, zone is 10T if you are asking what I think you are.
815. Glenn, using the converter, I entered:

     Northing: 4708824
     Easting: 459294
     Zone: 10

     That came close but not quite as precise as Eric’s in the converter…
816. Eric, it is actually town side of Hog Creek Boat Landing.
817. the section we are searching is between Jump Off Joe Creek and Hog Creek on east side of river. It’s a small triangular piece of land. Subj last seen Monday, veh found Tuesday but not reported until yesterday. Car locked, no obvious disturbance. Subj goes there to the indian burial ground to look for arrowheads. Last assumed to be wearing full body river waders. Searched area and found no clues, only possible beer can (kind he drinks) near river/creek. Divers checked river near creek, marine deputies checked about 2 miles down river through Hellgate Canyon. No known medical issues, frequent meth user, active warrant.

     Ok JD…what now??
818. Know if he has a cell phone? 😉
819. I wish…then I could work with Eric again…but sadly, no cell phone.
820. Come on you guys…you said you could help here…what am I missing?

     PS
     Detectives are working simultaneously on possible criminal element..just to rule that out.
821. How about any K9’s?? I know there was a snowfall on Tuesday and that would dampen the scent…. But you never know….

     Any reason for the NG Choper with flear??
822. You said Marine ran 2 miles each way…what about running from Hog Creek to Grave Creek the entire way?? Just checking banks…..
823. K9 there today, hit at the river…not much else. Bringing in Jackson Co K9 tomorrow to ride on boat to search river.
     It is my understanding and experience that in water only 37 degrees, a body would not float, especially that far. Especially with waders on.
824. It seems like such a small search area. But this is where you have all been mad before…they are always found outside search area! It seems so confined with residences and a major thoroghfare…where else did he go?
825. Ok so since i didn’t play today my questions may be repedative….Anyone check in with Indian Mary park host?? Have they checked their yurt, thinking of the one at the far end of the park…..How about at Morrisons?? Just thinking of the close, civilizations that you could pull off IF you were in the water….

     You are correct the A body would not float with the temp
826. What about river left, across from hog Creek there is an open bank there, and a road that leads up out of that….I have seen alot of people over there in the summertime fishing
827. So many things that have been said here were talked about out there today…all from us reading here. Decisions made..we said, “what would JD say?”
     One searcher asked me if I was tired. I said of course I was, why did she ask? She said I was up late on my computer…whoa!! She said that she found us here from MT and has just been reading along…how strange!
828. RRR – going to that place tomorrow. I think that you access it from Pickett Cr. That was my thought as well. We will have ground searchers there tomorrow morning.
829. 763 – Mike if you can’t confirm things I’m asking here just say so. It’s my belief that you didn’t know about the 3rd cell phone in their car until Saturday morning (based upon my finding out from one of their employees, telling her to hang up and call our Kim family contact immediately). If it’s true that you were only looking into the 2 cell phones up to that point, can I intimate that Eric and Noah were able to find the cell phone ping with the new information in a matter of hours? I’m also assuming based on what I’ve been told from sources that the cell phone ping was from the work-related cell phone they had in the car.

     I’m interested as a friend down here is working on Homeland Security related projects to do much more realtime cell phone ‘ping’ tracking to pre-empt possible cell phones usage by ‘bad guys’. The discussions led me to believe that cell carriers are improving their ability to quickly pull cell phone ping data and this could drastically change your ability to do more realtime ‘searching’ for someone if response from cell phone carriers could be reduced to minutes or hours, instead of what may have been days before. For SAR this could become immensely valuable as you suggest with the right supporting data included.
830. Well it apears as it is going to be another early morning and long day, I shall hit the hay…..Good Night JD and hope to see some ideas brainstormed in the morning 🙂
831. 812/ question to mapper –

     RRR and jocosar (sent privately to jocosar too) I can probably get you copies of GE pro next week I think, we were offered copies during the search so let me see if they’ll extend that offer to you.

     mapper and others who know gis – We had the offer of help from inside the google earth team (including the chief technologist) during the search. Knowing how good google is (usually) would it be a good idea to get SAR/GIS professionals together face to face with the google earth team to find out how GE could become something that either is a viable replacement for legacy systems or a better complement for them? At this point I think we have the ability to put these people in a room for this cause. For all I know Google has gis folks already working there – but still they might be open to this type of interaction (either once or ongoing).
832. Scott, that sounds cool. I was just going to buy the pro copy myself personally. I think that the benefit to me for using this software instead of GIS, is that in our financially strapped county, I hate to call someone in on the weekend if I don’t have to. If I can utilize GE myself to make it work right, I wouldn’t have to call in GIS. It would be a great Hasty search option. I certainly wouldnt want it to replace out use of GIS, just compliment it.
833. Ok, I have to get some sleep…early morning tomorrow. You should all know that assignments are already done for tomorrow and we will be utilizing ALL daylight hours possible!! We all had ICS vests on today too! New Sheriff was IC! We are really taking this to heart!
834. Good evening, all.

     829 – Scott, I hadn’t yet thanked you for being here, but wanted to let you know I, too, appreciate it.

     It is correct that I (or any LE, I believe) had not been made aware of the 3rd cell # until Sat. afternoon (info re: a possible 3rd cell # originally had been left via email Sat. am, but had already informed family contacts I did not have access to work email that date. Luckily, a 2nd message was later left on my direct cell phone voicemail I had provided the family with the same information. Turned out that, as soon as I called the other primary investigators, who were working directly w/ cell phone companies, they had already been provided that information. It was in keeping with centralized investigation theme, as well as our checks and balances system of sharing info.

     Sorry, but I can’t address the remainder of your thoughts, other than to suggest checking with Eric re: the time expenditure to locate the necessary info in this case.
835. 829 Hi Scott, once Noah got the number he was able to find them in our system pretty quickly. Keep in mind that our system is a bit smaller than perhaps a national carrier, therefore searches can be a bit quicker for us. Noah aslo has direct access to our switch and can check for information that may not be in billing (like the VLR database).

     I can’t comment on which number Noah found (although it may be in Sherriffs report). The Kim’s, and any other customers, information is completely confidential. However, in “Homeland Security” there may be provisons under the “law” that allow for more proactive means of “ping” detecting. I’ll have to reffer you to George W. Bush on that one…

     With that said, “real time” information is generally faster and can provide more informaton than searching records.

     Did I read earlier that you built the website for James and Kati? If so, please credit yourself for making it possible for Noah to get the information that he did.
836. One more note: The speed of checking records is of no use until we have proper legal authority to release the information. In this particular case Noah VERY PROACTIVELY to get that legal authorization.
837. Waders? If they suddenly tear and fill with cold water it is perhaps going to make the missing person not be able to wander very far.

     Its good that assignments are all set and full daylight use will be a goal.
838. How far from River to Parked Car?
     What is temperature of water?

     Are Indian arrow heads generally sought in the river bottom or along its banks or well inland from river?
839. Scott

     Its not my place to answer that question, but JoCos

     However, GE is not as functional as other GIS programs, its really not a replacement possiblity (yet, maybe in the future) this is part of why I have cautioned people. Its not the same thing. Furthermore, changing over the filetypes of all the data would cost so much time and resources it would not be worthwhile (also because they have an IMS – are pretty sophisiticated there). I have not worked with pro…..but, I dont think it is even close yet to the programs we work with.

     Now, as for a compliment, that might work. SAR could use a good drawing/sketching tool. And if you can give or help get such a gift like that its worth looking into for them. But like I said, you will have to talk to their gis people and joco decision makers, its not my decision to make.

     Google earth pro is $400 — the software we use….our maintence costs each year start at $400. I have never heard yet in the gis industry that google is close yet to being a competitier as far as functionality to ESRI or Intergraph, or MapInfo yet.

     Its kidna a joke to us that work with it so far…its like McGIS.

     Now, I know great things are supposed to happen, but as far as real world GIS, just not yet. And all of us (mostly) are trained and experienced with the more complicated programs. joco’s gis guy has been doing this for 15 years, I dont think he would be remotley interested in changing all of their ims and esri based filetypes over to a less functional software, and having to learn it too. (Though I could be wrong).
840. JoCo –

     my question to you would be….can you access your counties ArcIMS at home? Can you plot points on it? As the point of ArcIMS is really to deliver the GIS to agency employees who may not have the software license or be an experienced gis user.

     If I were you I would talk about what your gis guys can create for you as far as an application you can reach from home (if its an intranet site) or something they could put on a pda for you that you could bring back and they could update if they need to put it in the legacy data themseleves.

     Anyway….if you just want to print simple maps…I would like into the IMS angle or seeing if your gis guys could create something that will let you draw on the ims maps and you can print them from home.

     however, if scott can get you that gift it would be cool too 🙂 but I still think you should look into this as it should already all be at your fintertips.
841. As best I can tell, there isn’t a way, in free GE, to specify a waypoint by coordinates. That is, I can’t find any menu item that gives a text entry field. It is possible to place a waypoint at a specific spot by watching the displayed coordinates, but that is tedious.

     However, you can load a waypoint by way of a .kml file. This has a xml format, so it can be edited with a plain text editor (e.g. notepad). And for a simple waypoint the format is pretty simple. Google has a tutorial on kml at
     http://earth.google.com/kml/kml_tut.html

     However, I don’t see anything in the kml documentation about entering coordinates in UTM format.

     Someone familiar with a scripting language like Python could write a simple program that prompts for coordinates, and generates a kml file that could be loaded into GE. It could incorporate a UTM to LatLong converter.

     I found such a converter for Python. However the conversion it gives me is off, compared to the numbers the Eric quoted. That may be a matter of picking the correct ellipsoid.

     paulj
842. Still out searching, just checking in to see if you all came up with some good ideas or help here……
843. “…just checking in to see if you all came up with some good ideas …”
     Nope, but I did come up with some ideas.

     A beer can in the river can be significant particularly if his brand is an uncommon one. If he was wearing waders then he obviously contemplated either being in or traversing the cold water and I would think it was more likely than not that he contemplated a prolonged stay in the water.

     Maps: I know I may take some heat on this, but precision is not always needed or useful. Sure its nice to start with a precise map and superimpose a nice big red ‘x’ right where the person will later be found but in reality I think some maps can just show the salient features and be distributed to media or searchers promptly.

     The search term of art seems to be ‘situational application’ for the coordinate conversion.
844. oops – the Waypoint add tool does allow me to set the lat & lon. Still, for UTM, the external coverter and imput via kml may still be a simple way to go.
     paulj
845. This may be what is “ruled out”, as I suppose my ideas/questions are more investigative than search related in this case, since there are no motives for taking a
     certain route or path.

     It sounds like either a potential set up to shake/play a joke on authorities, or a lapse of responsibility to retrieve his car before police found it. What is the warrant for? Is it local or statewide? How old is the subject? Who called in that he was missing? Was he holding down a real job that he was invested in at the time? Does the car have any real value, or is it just a “junker” anyway? What was left in the car? Anything he really wouldn’t want to leave behind?

     Why would you go looking for arrowheads in an Oregon river/creek on an very, very cold Monday in January?
     On Martin Luther King Day? Especially if you’re a frequent meth user – they like the indoors – they don’t stay away for long. I think he’s probably safe with friends. It sounds even like it could be some kind of prank based on ideas from the Kim case.

     I don’t think pulling a potential prank or shake is at all acceptable. But if that is not the case, it would seem that he is either in harm’s way, or else, he just got picked up by a friend, went off to party, left his car and now doesn’t want to get it from police because of the warrant. That part also seems very likely.

     Sorry, I know that in itself doesn’t resolve any search issues or give any search ideas.

     What are the guidelines for how long you search before you call a search over or closed?
846. 😀 Attention 😀

     JoCoSAR asks how can we help find this lost person, probably lost along the Rogue River?

     The section we are searching is between Jump Off Joe Creek and Hog Creek on east side of Rogue River. It’s a small triangular piece of land.
     MAP coordinates? I’m looking now….

     Subject last seen Monday

     Car found Tuesday but not reported until yesterday.

     Car locked, no obvious disturbance.

     Subj goes there to the Indian burial ground to look for arrowheads.

     Last assumed to be wearing full body river waders.

     Searched area and found no clues, only possible beer can (kind he drinks) near river/creek.

     Divers checked river near creek, marine deputies checked about 2 miles down river through Hellgate Canyon.

     No known medical issues.

     Frequent meth user.

     Active warrant.
847. 842 / Sare: hip waders, meth user, beer can ??…he’s in the river somewhere, drowned, and the divers just haven’t stumbled on him yet.
848. 847/excuse me… Sara.
849. Sorry I copied and pasted that one…

     For me in this case, the possibility that he is in harm’s way seems the least likely scenario. It seems that the investigative aspect of this case would hold the most leads.
850. he just got picked up by a friend, went off to party, left his car and now doesn’t want to get it from police because of the warrant

     Although I agree with Paul that the most likely scenario is drowning, Lisa’s hypothesis is worth checking out by inquiring with friends and family. Why was he only reported missing yesterday when the car was found Tuesday?

     Have you talked to his best friend?
851. I asked upthread if one normally looked for arrowheads in the middle of the stream while wearing waders, or on the banks or inland. I really don’t know but if waders are ‘strange’ for arrowhead hunting then he was wearing them to trudge a great distance without getting cold and wet and this would make Lisa’s theory of avoiding a warrant (Meth warrant??) even more likely. If both he and other arrowhead hunters routinely wear waders, then I guess its still a search operation though ‘finding a car’ is vague.
852. Note on the Kim Search map:
     I just now looked at the reproduction of what appears to be a road map and I finally saw that small red bordered box on the map. It sure took me a long time to notice it and to notice what roads it applied to. Poorly printed and poorly positioned.
853. 845 – Addition/paraphrasing…

     Why would you go looking for arrowheads on an Oregon river bank, on a very, very cold Monday in January, a national holiday where some of your friends might have the day off, alone? And leave your car near the Rogue River after such a huge media story where someone was lost near there?

     I doubt he would venture into the river so much as to drown if he was looking for arrowheads in the dirt/earth areas.
     Unless there was some kind of meth-related heart or health problem that caused him to loose control. That is why age and duration of history as a meth user could be helpful
     background information.

     I also think certain friends would be hiding/covering for him so, I think a broader set of interviews with key people
     who would be less likely to be involved in a cover-up would be necessary.

     But it sounds potentially suspicious to me.
854. I have to say, after reading the report, I feel like there is a big elephant in the room. At some point in the report Brian Anderson said that a mistake that was made was relying on a citizen to say that the road had been cleared. Well, as my 10 year-old niece would say, “no duh!” Why was a casual conversation with a citizen (that was obviously horribly misunderstood)sufficient to establish a very critical road as “clear.” And if a citizen was going to be used to clear the road, then at a minimum the powers that be needed to have a clear conversation with him about exactly what transpired, instead of just basing it on casual comments made in passing that can be (and were) misunderstood.

     The outcome of this would have been completely different if that error had not been made. I realize that is painful to hear.
855. Joco

     I dont really have anything to add, as it sounds like you have it under control and know where he was seen last and all.

     Anyway. I just wanted to reiterate, if you just want to draw and print on maps when the gis guys are not around, see what can be done with your ArcIms. I looked at it on the joco website and it looks like it might be an intranet site (as I couldnt find a link to get a good look at it) but that is really what ims is for…we serve the gis data to others in the agency so they can use it and make maps themselves. Its customizable and scalable.

     Now, another great new product that is esri based is ArcExplorer…this is more similiar to google earth and I always forget about it cause its new and well, I dont really have much need for it, as I work with my own data and rarley have a need to look at another area. But it allows you to connect to your legacy data, kmz files, the geography network, and esri servers as well (basically anyone that will let you access their gis data that is on a server). Its quite powerful in what it lets you accomplish, and it is also free download that you could use from your home computer.

     Ask the gis guys about it if your interested in that, it will have more of the functionality that your looking for but will also be harder to learn to use than GE. So maybe they could train you. Actually were all learning about ArcExplorer now as its farily new with the release of ArcServer.

     I gotta start paying more attention to my work now though, as I have very much to do.

     Good luck Joco with your latest search.

     ps….maybe time to find where the meth sheds are? any known meth hotspots?

     I knew a guy in school that was going to try to map all of the meth hotspots and known places where meth sheds had been found and see what kind of patterns he could find. (not sure what happenned with that!)
856. 854- Good point Joy – I have to say I agree. I feel that this was a very key and very logical lead that was not followed up on.

     Both Stanton and Rubrecht have said that Friday they “lowered that road on their priority list,” for various reasons at various times – then later only to try to blame the issue on John James. When that really is no
     excuse.

     Yet so many locals knew that taking that fork was a common mistake. Not just John James, Rachor, so many others mentioned it.

     I get the impression that Stanton and Rubrecht made the assumption that the Kims being regarded as intelligent people were reading the signs to the coast, and would not
     have taken an “un-signed” road.

     But the fact that it was dark and there may have been weather conditions that interfered with visibility – that it was late and there may have been issues of tiredness, and
     ‘people get lost up there all the time, etc.’ All point to the fact that it seems BLM 34-8-36 should have been one of the first roads to be thoroughly cleared after Bear Camp.
     Especially with the lead given by John James.

     And some people will say hindsight is easier, etc, and of course it is. But there were so many locals who said they
     thought they could be lost down 34-8-36. It seems very logical to so many people who know the issues of those roads. It also seems very logical if you think about it from the position of someone who doesn’t know the area, late at night, poor signage, poor map warning indications,
     all pretty obvious factors.

     But it seemed Stanton, Rubrecht, and Anderson made an assumption that they were not/ would not be likely to be
     down that road. And that’s why it was not checked effiently,
     and that’s why John James’ lead wasn’t given much credibility.

     Just to conveniently blame him later.
857. JoCoSar, is there any news coverage? with perhaps pictures or id alerting public to the search?
858. 856- Again, I bring that up not for blame, but for reasons of recognizing big issues.
859. Lisa, Joy – have you had a chance to look at the pictures that jocosar took of the junctions and signs along 34-8-36?

     When considering whether 34-8-36 (west) should have received higher priority early in the search consider a couple of things:
     – while John James has redirected lost tourists, there have been few, if any, SAR missions down that road.
     – even John James was surprised they had driven so far down the road, 6 miles beyond his lodge turnoff (ref the CNN video). Note in the pictures that this stretch has grass growing in the middle, indicative of very light traffic.
     – assume for the moment that the car had not been found at the end of 34-8-36, where would you have searched next? Would you have continued west on 33-9-21. I think Kati left a note on an open gate on that road. How about looking uphill on 34-9-7? This loops back, rejoining 34-8-36 near Big Windy Ck.
     – what if Kims had not driven so far? What if they had only driven to the point where you can see the Rogue River? Would they have been seen in a helicopter search?

     Because Kims were eventually found at the end of 34-8-36 it is easy to focus on all the opinions and clues that point that direction, ignoring clues that pointed elsewhere. What about all the other places where SAR missions found victims? I know, for example, of 3 individuals who died on the Curry Co side of FS23. Back in March an RV was stranded 5 miles to north, on the other side of the river. None of those cases suggest searching down this stretch of 34-8-36. What about the possibility that they had slid off the road, and were hidden in a ravine below?

     The sheriff’s report does recommend improving the ways in which the help of locals can be incorporated into the search. Regardless of who’s story you believe, the circumstances on Friday on FS 23 were not optimal for relaying the clues that John James have found.

     paulj
860. Brian Anderson himself said it was a mistake to rely upon the representations of a civilian regarding whether the road was clear or not. Of course he meant it as an insult to James, but what I’m saying is that yes, indeed it was a mistake to rely on a civilian to clear the road, unless his report of what he did on the road was more formally made. So whether or not it was six miles past the lodge (which would not take that long, even if the road was in poor condition), the bottom line is they are saying they thought the road was cleared, and they based that on a civilian and a casual conversation with him. That is really sloppy, in my opinion, and ultimately was critical.
861. Relaying a clue or interpreting it or assessing its value?

     It is always difficult to ignore the puzzle’s now known answer and try to be methodical about evaluating what, if anything, went wrong.

     That intersection was deceptive in the past on a number of occasions to people not familiar with the area. Okay. The Kims qualify. Ofcourse, it seems other intersections may also qualify as ‘deceptively inviting’ or ‘having a demonstrated history of having been deceptively inviting’. Fair enough.
     Should a list have been made of them?
     Should a special interest have been shown regarding them?
     All of them?
     A few of them?
     That first fateful turnoff led them astray and they persisted in taking what not only turned out to be a road to a desolate area but in better weather would have been obviously an un-trafficked roadway.
     How many other fateful turnoffs were there?
     Who knows? How can they be ranked.
     If there are seven (number picked whimsically) turnoffs and one out of those seven has a ‘history’ of some sort known to the locals and perhaps communicated in some manner to the SAR people does that road deserve special attention? Sure. Will it get it? Who knows. If helicopters are in the area I’d sure see that the particularly deceptive roads got a little bit of extra attention though a pilot looking at his fuel guage should not feel any special pressure.

     We look later and condemn the Coast Guard officer who relied on a phone call maliciously informing them a yacht had docked when in fact it had sunk well out to sea and the people needed rescue efforts desperately. Did something similar happen here? No. There may have been a misevaluation of some citizens information but all the professionals seem to have been burdened with a lot of repetitive and at times incorrect information.

     One poor guy wrote the wrong date on his after action report. Gee, error in communication there. Do you burden them with carrying around date stamps?

     Some miscommunication took place concerning named/numbered roads. Well… I sure don’t understand the naming and numbering system even now. So alot of this ‘error’ is really quite “normal”. This was NOT the first search wherein a volunteer showed up poorly dressed for the occasion out of an excess of zeal and perhaps ignorance or inattention. However, a checklist might be developed for the next one. Perhaps someone will ask the Senior Citizen Centers that have knitting circles to knit some brightly colored vests for rescue personnel to wear. Or perhaps some pencil pusher will actually get to fill out a Purchase Order in nine copies and get some ill-fitting and poorly colored vests more promptly and at much greater cost. I don’t know. The problem-points are being identified and dealt with and who knows what the decisions will be.

     Would I have ordered that road to be checked if I been on scene and in charge. You bet!! Especially after I know the answer to the puzzle!! Would I have done it earlier? Well, in all actuality, I really do think I would have.

     Would I have relied more on aviation and more on thermal imaging? Sure. That happens to be a bias for me. Would I have made use of fixed wing aircraft despite the steep and foliage filled terrain? Sure! Would I have attempted more technical cell phone things earlier? I sure hope so. Its also a bit of a bias.

     Would I have gone out in the snow and ice and rain and fog and actually dealt with the slow and methodical clearing of the less glamorous roads? No, though I still have great respect for those who did.
862. My understanding is that on Friday, the focus was on clearing the through route, FS23 over to Agness. On Sunday and Monday they were systematically working on clearing all the spurs of the through route, starting if I recall correctly at the lower end. They were working on 34-8-36 (west) on Monday. As for Saturday, I think there were questions as to whether enough clues pointed to Josesphine Co or not.

     I think it is moot whether someone thought BLM 34-8-36 had been ‘cleared’ in the early stages of the search. Even if John James had driven it as far as his lodge (which he apparently did not), I doubt if anyone believed this area had been systematically searched.

     I think the really questions are:
     – were there enough clues to start a systematic search earlier, such as on Saturday (my recollection of Saturday activity is poor)?
     – was there reason to do a quick-n-dirty search of 34-8-36 early on (the tire tracks that John James saw might qualify)?
     – should the systematic search have started at the west end, instead of the east?

     paulj
863. I would perhaps think that a ‘quick and dirty’ search was indeed merited although if there were oodles of other deceptive turnoffs and oodles of reported tire-tracks I might re-evaluate that. I also think that ‘quick and dirty’ is a luxury sometimes and independent would-be heroes can be a dangerous impairment if the focus is on a methodical grid search. People at times focused on better paved roads that might have been the scene of a car skidding into dense foliage because this was ‘likely’. Well, a turnoff that is known locally as being deceptive and has tire tracks spotted nearby is ‘likely’ too. It may not be as obvious then as it is now because we now view it as the needle, not a strand of hay. Hindsight is great sometimes. Blinders can be difficult though.

     Should focus on the more commonly utilized and much better paved coastal routes have been downgraded earlier? I think so.

     I just don’t see that this
864. I just don’t see that this search had any glaring errors, just a few fumbles that turned out to be critical.
865. Fools Gold, et. al., we have finished our analysis of the Kim tragedy and come to the following conclusions.

     There were four negligent parties to blame (yes, to blame) for James Kim’s death and the endangerment of the Kim family: James Kim, Kati Kim, Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton. Had any one of them exercised the prudent judgment that could be reasonably expected of someone in their position, James Kim would be alive today.

     After reading the OSSA report and all of the other materials available to the public, that’s the conclusion that we came to.

     The flaws in the SAR organization were real and should be fixed, but they had only a minor role in the events. The cellular data was irrelevant, as were the signs and maps. Kati Kim’s accounts are not entirely believable; it is evident that she’s concealing a few things, including the stop in Wilsonville and a gap of three to four hours between when they left the tourist information center and when they refilled their gas tank in Halsey.

     The best way to prevent similar tragedies is through educating the public not to over-rely on technology at the expense of basic matters like careful trip planning and ordinary prudence.

     A complete re-write of our narrative will be posted on our website later today.
866. 859 – Paulj

     John James was up there on Friday because he knew it was a good possiblity. Even one of his employees had written him an email and said, what do you bet there up there? After the fork, he tried to check BLM 34-8-36 first. He knows the issues of that road more than probably anyone.

     But it sounds like his efforts were not given any credibility except to blame him. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t not give a civilan crediblity, treat him like you’ve got it under control and it’s your work and then when you don’t follow up on it, and it turns out to be true, try to blame it on him later.

     Ultimately, it was not at all his responsibility – it was theirs. They know that, and all professional people in their field know that was their responsibility to clear that road, not his. They knew very well he had not cleared that road for certain.

     John Rachor was up there on Sunday (and presumably would have been up there on Saturday if he had flown that day),
     but he had to turn around because he needed more fuel.

     He knew to look there once Bear Camp Rd itself had been cleared. He knew it was a very likely, logical place they
     could be lost.

     It’s not just “hindsight” many locals had foresight that
     they could very well be down that road. And that is might be one of the most likely possiblities. John James even
     saw tire tracks that only went one way!

     SAR themselves have said that every search is different.

     Anyone who looks at that fork knows it’s an obvious
     possibility. If people are driving late at night, it’s even more presumable they might go farther if clarity and visibility are limited.

     That’s why people get lost there all the time.

     If you’re clearing roads in your county, and so is the county bordering, you clear the roads people who might be lost taking the Bear Camp to the coast would most likely be lost on.

     The point is this, if the logic and evidence seen by locals who really know the roads would have been followed up on to the county line, they would have been found earlier.

     If John Rachor had flown Saturday, or Sunday with enough
     fuel, they would have been found earlier.

     The search does not seem as efficient, logical, or thorough as needed. I agree it seems that it was sloppy and slack at many points.

     It’s just disappointing when people’s lives are at stake,
     and attempts to find them are so inadequate. This is not just a case of someone being stuck for a day. This is an emergency/urgent situation. This is not “snow practice.” This is a family who was missing/lost in freezing temperatures for a week.

     Spending so much time interviewing a drunk witness/es?

     Not using so many vital daylight hours?

     It sounds like once Bear Camp was cleared, they didn’t really think they were in their county.

     Here is a quote from the Report:

     “On a positive note, ROWLAND said that the incident command had worked best on the last day, Wednesday, when packets of information were available for everybody. Negatively speaking, the incident command was not open 24 hours like it should have been. Josephine County did not step up soon enough and ask for help from some of the expert people who could have provided assistance. It was also ROWLAND’s opinion that Bear Camp Road had not been cleared the right way. Radio communication was a big issue and things were not being told to the incident command.”

     There’s just a lot that’s questionable, that needs to be improved.

     I’m not saying I don’t appreciate the efforts and attempts,
     but locals knew where to look. From the beginning. You can’t deny that. And the ones who tried to go there, tried to go to BLM 34-8-36 as one of the first places. That speaks for itself.

     Even when they knew he was in the drainage they didn’t have enough people looking for him in enough stategic locations.
     Too much time looking for “scuff marks” when a person is freezing, and would obviously be on the move! What good are scouring scuff marks in precious daylight hours in freezing temperatures if you want to find a person in time…

     And unlike Fools Gold, I would have been out there! It was driving me crazy that I couldn’t be!

     Efforts and attempts do not go entirely unappreciated at all, but there are serious issues and questions that deserve to be addressed and acknowledged. That’s all I’m saying…

     No blame! But “food for thought,” for learning, and future cases.

     That is the way to make the most out of this tragedy.
867. For someone who writes, No blame! you certainly seem ready to blame the SAR managers. That’s appropriate, in my view. Ms. Rubrecht and Mr. Stanton should have ordered a search of the logging road. Whether or not Mr. James suggested the search is almost beside the point. A prudent SAR manager would have ordered the search upon being informed of the fresh tire tracks there.

     But Lisa, you are forgetting the Kims’ role in the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6.

     They did not, as many media reports said, simply take a wrong turn and wind up in the wilderness on the night of Nov. 25-26. They ignored half a dozen warnings against winter travel in the Rogue Wilderness: Two on an Oregon highway map and four on road signs along their route. At a critical juncture on a snowy night, they elected to take an unknown road farther into the wilderness. The following morning they elected to stay in that wilderness rather than drive back out.

     The Kims did not make those misjudgments in isolation. They must be viewed within a broader context of a late departure from the Portland area; foul weather – actual and forecast — both that day, that night and indeed throughout their trip to and from Seattle; their prior residence in Oregon; the presence of two very young children in their car; plentiful alternatives for their route and accommodations; and the Kims’ lack of emergency equipment and seasonal clothing.

     We do not believe Mrs. Kim’s account of the events of Nov. 25-26. It is highly likely that the Kims stopped at a tourist information center in Wilsonville, shortly after noon, and took about five hours to make what is normally a one-hour trip to Halsey, where they refilled their fuel tank.

     We think the Kims activities during this time gap might go far to explain their haste later that day. We are not convinced that the Kims missed an exit from Interstate 5 to Oregon Hwy. 42, as Mrs. Kim told investigators. More likely is that they had decided earlier in the day to use the wilderness route.

     Mrs. Kim’s account of weather conditions on the night of Nov. 25 does not ring true. If it were dry until just before they were stopped by snow, as she claimed, they could have easily returned to I-5 rather than proceed down the logging road. We think it’s more likely that it had been snowing heavily as they proceeded up Bear Camp Road. We also suspect that the Kims took the logging road not just to seek a lower elevation, but because they believed they could reach Gold Beach.

     When all of these factors are combined, we believe that the Kims were consumed by their haste and determination to reach Gold Beach, at the expense of the care and prudence to be expected from parents of two young children whose lives they endangered that night. The Kims bear the primary responsibility for the fate that befell James Kim and the near death of the other members of the family.
868. #864 -Fools Gold
     I just don’t see that this search had any glaring errors, just a few fumbles that turned out to be critical.

     Yea, that’s why the review resulted in this:

     “Gov. Ted Kulongoski has created a state task force to review what Oregon should do to improve search and rescue efforts.”

     Best quotes:

     #866 – Lisa
     “You can’t have it both ways. You can’t not give a civilan crediblity, treat him like you’ve got it under control and it’s your work and then when you don’t follow up on it, and it turns out to be true, try to blame it on him later.”

     #854 – Joy
     “I feel like there is a big elephant in the room”

     I have read the report. I don’t know if I’m going to later go into my opinions of it further or not.

     I found part I & II (pages 1-26) not exactly in correlation with Part III ( pages 1-47).
     Pages 1-26 indicate serious, serious issues with nearly every aspect of how the search was handled by Jo. Co. officials. It also impicates that Spenser Kim was a major hindrence in the search by hiring his own copters.

     Pages – 1- 47 Incate there wasn’t the depth of issues with Jo. Co. and that Spenser Kim’s hiring of his own copters did not hinder the search. Clearly there is much left out here.

     Sara herself stated that the report did not contain the entire record of interviews. That some parts of what she said was left out.

     The issue of the what the reporter reported about the Anderson watching the football game – was the reporter contacted and asked if he had a tape of the interviews he did with Sara & Anderson? If they did and he refused to comply, then it would lead one to think he could not back up his statements in the article & would lead one to believe Sara’s & Anderson’s recount of it in the review.

     But to take their word alone on this issue leaves troubling doubt in my mind.

     I found the review informative, to an extent, but not to the extent it should’ve been and nothing in the review, to me, would call for the gov. to do what he’s doing. There is more here, but I am not going to ask for more as the whole process is being reviewed. Clearly Jo. Co. has survived this Keystone Cop attitude towards searches but they surely can’t survive another, therefore, for their own best interest they need to get their act together. Which they want to give the impression of doing and I hope it is sincere and not just efforts to quell the current scrunity.

     866- Lisa, agree 100%
869. Another point I found particularly troubling: the sherriff lack of involvement in this.
     He was still the sherriff until the minute the new sherriff was swore in.
870. Lisa – what skills would you have brought to the search down Big Windy? My impression is that this phase was a classic rough country search. The lower parts of the canyon, in particular, required the skills of specialized SAR groups, such as Eugene Mountain Rescue.

     paulj
871. Also, most problems with this search were not related to funding: it was related to organization & making the best use of resources, be they limited or not.
     Also, I find the limited resources a bit lacking here as Spencer Kim was there, he would’ve funded anything to help his son. This is not to say limited resources are not a factor at all, but not to the point, in THIS particular search as in others.
872. 870- paulj

     I would have done a “hasty” search for James in the drainage. This was not indsight. I was going crazy at home while this search was going on that they didn’t have more people in more places in the drainage. And that the people down there were tracking him so slowly when he had a 2 day advantage on them. It was obvious to me that there was where he was, and there were all these excuses about why more people weren’t down there looking. I would have been careful, but I had so much passion and energy to find James ASAP. I have hiked in difficult terrain in Oregon similar to that. I had just had hypothermia a month earlier and I knew what it was like to be hypothermic and how time is all important.

     At home, I was so worried about this family! I knew they needed to be found as soon as possible. Once Kati and the girls were found that was such a relief. But knowing how long James had been out, and that he was in the drainage -every hour, every moment, was precious – vital. Saving James in time would have been my priority.

     I’m really not blaming – I don’t believe in blame! – Blame accomplishes nothing. But understanding cause and effect relationships does.

     Glossing over important issues causes less light to be shed on what can be learned from this case.

     Here is a quote from someone in SAR on another blog:

     “i’m very disappointed in the search and rescue team up in oregon. maybe they don’t have a lot of experience doing these things and i am a bit biased from all the work we do in tahoe when folks go out of bounds and get lost, all the time. we put on our headlamps, pack our ropes for steep angle rescues, and go out all night till we find them. these folks seem pretty junior varsity to me. the tracks are plain, or were on day one, and they are probably not going to find him alive anymore. very sad.”

     Posted By: jash (an alias) | December 06 2006 at 10:25 AM

     That from one of the San Francsico Chronicle blogs about the Kim search.
873. Lisa: Could you please stop the bolding thing ??…it is like shouting or putting things in caps. I don’t think it is warranted to be using to the extent that you are.
874. Lisa: Could you please stop the bolding thing ??…it is like shouting or putting things in caps. I don’t think it is warranted to be using to the extent that you are.
875. I like the bolding-makes a good reference point.
876. Lisa, the definition of blame is “to hold responsible.” There’s no need to be afraid to blame; it has an undeserved bad reputation, maybe as the result of so many people not pausing to remember what the word actually means. The fixing of responsibility is the foundation of learning from mistakes.
877. 874- I won’t bold anymore. I just wanted to make it clear what my point was – and that it wasn’t about blame. The emotion I have about this all comes from wanting to help save lives in time.

     I also truly thank everyone who tried to help. I know everyone had good intentions.
878. In Death Valley the rangers routinely clear a road that has any tire tracks and then wipe away the tracks so as to know that they need not make any routine patrols there. Thus, when someone does go missing, side roads will not have so many tracks and aerial spotting of tracks is more productive. I am sure tracks in snow are less permanent but equally indicative. Tracks are indeed important as are ‘references’ to them. References were probably mishandled here by the authorities due to a variety of reasons including the usual ‘us versus them’ attitudes and ‘you don’t tell us what to do’ attitudes that all officials seem to proudly share. A lack of precision as to ‘cleared’ and which road segments were under discussion resulted in a downgrading of the information.

     I doubt the recollections of their travel are being intentionally distorted. If there are gaps, I doubt it will turn out they robbed a bank enroute and are now hesitant to admit it. I could not rememember all stops I’ve made on long trips and I sure didn’t have two kids with me!

     Lack of ‘situational awareness’ is a serious matter. The Kims did venture into a rugged wilderness with no “flight plan” and no semblance of adequate gear. If it turns out that he had been photographed running with the bulls at Pamplona while carrying one of his kids on his back, I might understand his actions. The problem is that he seems to have been a relatively bright and reasonable person who took sensible actions and acted responsibly. Clearly there was a lapse in his alertness this time. Clearly it only takes one time. We are less clear as to whether the SAR activities should have made this event a lesson for him or a lesson for his heirs. I did not see the box on the map… and I was LOOKING for it from the comfort of a desk top computer, not a dark, noisy car near the end of a long day.

     Its hard to imagine that weather warnings were not available but I don’t know if there were roadway signs about “in winter tune car radio to xxx.xx for local conditions and an irritating computerized voice”. For a techie guy, he sure travelled light. For a techie guy, I would have expected his stopping at internet cafes for downloads of weather data from a reporting station directly on his route. I still can not come to grips with what appears to be total situational ignorance. I have wound up on unpaved roads without warning but not in Winter and not in such rugged terrain with a family aboard but no survival gear aboard.

     Someone liked my analogy about computer backups and coffee spills onto keyboards. We ALL hear the warnings and yes, we ALL fail to heed them. There is a saying about pilots who fly retractable gear airplanes: There are two types: those who have already landed the gear up and those who be doing it soon. No one is immune from distractions, forgetfulness and lack of attention.

     But SAR types do not have the luxury of determining who SHOULD be rescued because their peril is somehow less puzzling to us. A person with a gunshot wound is not evaluated for wisdom in selecting his hunting companions or his lack of strict adherence to hunting season. Atleast not during the emergency.

     He drove his family into grave peril and it is astounding to some of us and merely puzzling to some of us, but it is not a proper inquiry for SAR personnel during the search.
879. 878–Yes, in fact I recall the Detective here mentioning that they were searching for a suicidal person. We’ve decided as a community that even people who in an act of anguish want to kill themselves, in fact deserve to live and our efforts are put into finding/saving them. That’s why I don’t understand the continual desire to diminish James Kim. He’s dead, for crying out loud, he’s not going to learn anything from the criticisms.
880. 867 I do not disagree with the last line of post 867, but much of what Mr. Wilson has written is simply fiction.
881. “…“i’m very disappointed in the search and rescue team up in oregon. maybe they don’t have a lot of experience doing these things and i am a bit biased from all the work we do in tahoe when folks go out of bounds and get lost, all the time. we put on our headlamps, pack our ropes for steep angle rescues, and go out all night till we find them. these folks seem pretty junior varsity to me. the tracks are plain, or were on day one, and they are probably not going to find him alive anymore. very sad.” … ”

     Okay. Lets analyze this. It sounds like well trained and highly experienced personnel who have expensive equipment available to them. It also sounds like its a technique best used in relatively limited search areas. I do NOT know what the situation in Josephine County is but I do know that there are claims of Poverty. I do doubt that SWAT personnel in Tahoe lack bright clothing during helicopter drops, but I don’t know for sure. Josephine County probably had a relatively limited search area if they had paid closer attention to the reports of the tire tracks and the local knowledge of a particularly misleading intersection. They didn’t.
882. Thanks for your input, Kati’s Dad. Of course we know it is fiction as well but you are in the best position to put it to rest.
883. Kati’s Dad, I sympathize with your desire to defend your daughter and attack those who would question her account, but I believe that a certain amount of what your daughter told investigators was fiction. Her account is not only internally contradictory and at odds with logic, but conflicts with credible accounts from others.

     Yesterday, I communicated with Michele Roberts, the reporter for the Oregonian who wrote their story about your daughter’s denial that the family had eaten berries plucked from bear scat. I inquired of Ms. Roberts whether she had asked your daughter any other questions, as there were a number of inconsistencies in your daughter’s stories.

     [deleted]
884. Well, thankfully Kati now knows to never talk to that woman again. Seems pretty irresponsible for her to communicate that information to you, whoever you are.
885. I need to make a correction. It was Michelle Roberts. She spells her name with two L’s.
886. “….Lisa – what skills would you have brought to the search down Big Windy? My impression is that this phase was a classic rough country search. …”
     ………
     Well even people halfway across the continent knew the terrain was extreme but had the impression that the searchers should have been leapfrogging ahead rather than creeping behind hoping to catch up. I don’t know if this would have been safe or effective but I sure felt their slow and careful tracking of the trail was atbest going to find a corpse.
887. [deleted]
888. No further comment.
889. There’s really not a lot left to say, is there?
890. Katie’s Dad:
     As I’m sure you’ve already deduced, Mr. Wilson is simply interested in trying to draw you out for negative confrontation.

     I admire your ‘no further comment’.
891. Of course there is, but I see no purpose in making any further comment in response to you.
892. The summary of our conclusions on the case, derived from media accounts, official reports and other publicly available sources, is as follows:

     James and Kati Kim’s negligence was primarily responsible for the tragedy that unfolded between Nov. 25 and Dec. 6, 2006. The failure of two officials, Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton, to order the search of the road where the Kims were stranded, contributed to Mr. Kim’s death.

     Various other factors cited by the media and others – inadequate signs and maps, credit card privacy rules, cellular location data – were tangential or irrelevant.

     Disorganized management of the search for the Kim family highlighted flaws in the search and rescue process that should be addressed, but was a minor factor in the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6.

     Significant gaps and contradictions remain in Mrs. Kim’s accounting of events, particularly on Nov. 25. We do not believe she was completely forthcoming in her statements to authorities.

     Public education about the dangers of overreliance on technology, and on the need to plan trips carefully and respect the hazardous nature of wilderness travel, is the best means of preventing similar tragedies.

     We reject pleas to exempt any participants from scrutiny, or to “let bygones be bygones.” Heavy media coverage made the Kim tragedy a public event, inspiring widespread attention and oingoing government involvement. All factors, actions and participants must be thoroughly analyzed to insure that any responses to the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6 are appropriate.

     ——

     With that, I look forward to fading away into the sunset. Kati’s Dad, I think your daughter needs to give a thorough and truthful interview to someone who will ask her what needs to be asked. I won’t be holding my breath. Happy trails.
893. flaws… minor factor …. Only the Dead Guy is at fault…
     h’mmm. Sounds like he is worried about being sued for something. Or else is very inventive.
894. Kati’s Dad

     We are all behind you. Last I recall Charles was told that all of his posts here will be deleted.

     I hope you and your family are still doing well and things are starting to look brighter.
895. If the autopsy report is correct in estimating that James was dead two days, then no amount of leapfrogging Monday afternoon would have saved him. By the time the search started down the drainage, James may have already been dead and lying the pool where he was finally found. He had already walked all of Saturday, Sunday, and part of Monday.

     By the way, how do search teams ‘leapfrog’ in terrain like this? How far ahead should they have jumped? Down into the steep part of the canyon? I wouldn’t put too much weight on the press conference comment about not being able to catch up. They were finding clues of his passage, but had no idea of where he really was.

     To put this part of search into proper context, I would suggest pulling up the Compilation Timeline of the Sheriffs report, and point to specific times and places where you would have done something different.

     For example
     Monday early to midafternoon – search starts in Windy Ck drainage area.
     Monday 5pm: “Bloom stated searchers had tracked James Kim as far safely as possible. Eugene Mountain rescue team called in to continue search”
     7pm “EMR suspended their search because the terrain was to treacherous. They will spend the night in place…”

     I also see from that report that minimum temperatures were around 8F, cold and uncomfortable, especially if wet, but not freezing.

     paulj
896. Kati’s Dad,
     the other day I was out jogging and i got a chance to be alone with my thougths. I was thinking about what we’ve been talking about here and what we hope to accomplish. Then it struck me all over again, this is about a real family. real people. I am a mom about kati’s age and I started particularly thinking about her. I thought about what she went through, and what she endured. I thought about what it must have been like when James didnt come back that first night. I was absolutely heart broken. I cannot tell you how much I admire your very brave daughter. She has a very special place on this earth, james saw it and knew it and married her because of it. Now, the world has had a chance to see how truly amazing she is. I think of her daily and she inspires me as a mom.
897. 892 – Charles Wilson – “With that, I look forward to fading away into the sunset”.
898. 892 – Charles Wilson – “With that, I look forward to fading away into the sunset”.

     Be still my heart. But I digress…..

     Kati’s Dad has the class, integrity and wisdom not to get suckered into a gunfight with an unarmed person. Your agenda has never waivered from Day One of your comments, nor have your pre-conceived conclusions. Your attempts to “interview” principals here have basically backfired, much to your chagrin, I’m sure. Your “we have concluded”-type statements are not only officious, but ill-conceived. Adios. (ad·i·os [ad-ee-ohs, ah-dee-; Sp. –interjection good-bye; farewell).
899. Fool’s Gold (893), it’s simply false to protray us as having written that “only the dead guy is at fault.” We identified four negligent parties: James Kim, Kati Kim, Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton.

     I realize that the regulars at this website don’t like the idea of holding anyone responsible (the dictionary definition of “blame”) for the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6, nor does Kati’s Dad enjoy reading our opinion that his daughter was not completely forthcoming in her accounts to investigators.

     Disagree to your heart’s content. Condemn our work. I know you will. But don’t lie about it, o.k.? We didn’t say that “only the dead guy is at fault.” That’s flatly wrong, and I think you know it.
900. 895/ paulj: I could not agree with you more, (except in that I think it highly unlikely he made it more than one night). Anyone who has spent any serious time reading the account and supplemented that with close scrutiny of a topographic map can appreciate just how brutal conditions in that drainage were. Eugene MOUNTAIN rescue – emphasis added – was brought in for that very reason, conventional SAR could not safely procede. Everyone has these grandiose notions of dropping into that canyon like it’s some kind of walk in the park; armchair quarterbacks second-guessing the experts who are risking their lives, criticizing from the warm, safe comfort of their homes. Do any of them want to hang off the end of a rope from a helicopter with firs everywhere threatening to ensnare them ??…yeah, I didn’t think so.
901. 898/Madeleine: once again you say it far better than I ever could have.
902. 891/Kati’s dad: you are a class act, thank you for rising about the odious stench with such civility. I applaud your strength of character in not engaging in a futile fight with Snarls.
903. Lisa wrote ” I have hiked in difficult terrain in Oregon similar to that. “.

     I suspect that I have hiked in terrain like that too, but I’ve always stuck to a trail. I cannot imagine scrambling cross country with any haste in coastal forests like this. As it was one search suffered a broken collar bone (or worse) and to be evacuated.

     While James was found in a pool way down the canyon, he could have been found injured or in a hypothermic coma any where along the drainage, even in the upper part where they searched for ‘scuff marks’.

     I get the impression that some armchair searchers think SAR is a simple matter of passionately searching in just the right spots. Careful systematic searching is taken as evidence of a don’t-care attitude.

     paulj
904. 900- So Paul, what you are saying makes no sense.

     You think that he went ten miles down a snowy road with no food for a week. Entered the drainage, and then went 5 miles through Big Windy in one day?

     When it proved so difficult for rescuers?

     I have “spent serious time reading the account and supplemented with close scrutiny of the topographic map”
     and you underestimate what it takes to take the life of a
     malnourished, cold, but otherwise very healthy 35 year old
     determined father and husband, with a lot of warming adrenaline to boot.

     There were teenagers who survived 14 days in a snow cave on Mt. Hood, after strenuous climbing, without enough food, eating snow. How long would you have given them?
905. 895- Paul J

     The point is that is only an estimate and you don’t know if he was alive so don’t search like it’s too late, or
     search in a way where it’s likely to become too late.

     The coroner said Monday was an “educated guess.”

     That is indefinite! It’s a guess! People often defy estimates!

     The point is to search like you’re trying to find him in time. Like it’s urgent – if you want to increase chances you’ll find him alive.

     And there is other evidence – the hotspot Monday night – the fact that the helicopter pilots had looked at that pool many times, and didn’t see him there until Wednesday – the fact that there were flashes of light there late Tuesday – that he could have still been alive.
906. The Mail Tribure article that focused on the helicopter pilots
     http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/1207/local/stories/kim-rescueworkers.htm
     quotes the Jackson Co SAR volunteer pilot, Randy Jones:
     “””
     “Those were the toughest miles anyone could traverse,” Jones said. “I doubt any human has ever walked in there before him.”

     He described the rugged territory as “virgin wilderness,” with old-growth trees towering more than 200 feet high, heavy brush, fallen logs and boulders, as well as cliffs walling the creek in some areas.
     “””
     While some details of this and other realtime reports don’t mesh with later ones, it gives a sense of the search difficulties, as seen by an experienced SAR volunteer from the area.

     Someone quoted a SAR volunteer from the Lake Tahoe area. While that area is rocky, it is relatively open Ponderosa pine forest. Cross country travel is much more of an option there, even in winter snow pack.

     paulj
907. I do have one comment on the software, particularly the GIS stuff. Then I call it a night!

     Its probably great when someone comes in with some new ‘bell and whistle’ but the SAR people probably have no time to deal with new programs then. A program that everyone is familiar with and that is actually on their machines beats any program that is still in shrink wrap on some shelf.

     The cell line of sight overlay was extremely valuable but not fully understood and I still don’t know why. The delay in its being generated was unfortunate. I don’t know if it was that no one would give the caller the cell phone numbers or no one had them. All through this it seems as if someone was going to start using a quill pen because that is all they had. And they would use that quill pen to write down information that had been taken down umpteen times already in umpteen jurisdictions.
908. 906- It was speculated that no one has EVER been in the big windy drainage, when in fact people have. many love the sport of canyoneering and have gone down that area before.
909. Lisa, two questions for you.

     1. Please discuss the tendency of FLIR equipment to produce supurious readings, a/k/a “artifacts.”

     2. Have you inquired as to whether the reading matched that of a human being, as opposed to, say, a small bear?

     Just wondering.
910. I tend to go along with Paul – [900]- I think it highly unlikely he made it more than one night but Lisa’s -[905] – he fact that the helicopter pilots had looked at that pool many times, and didn’t see him there until Wednesday – the fact that there were flashes of light there late Tuesday – that he could have still been alive needs to be investigated more thoroughly and conclusions drawn.
911. NSARC, a national SAR inter agency committee did an interesting study in SAR sweep width.

     http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opr/nsarc/interest_items.htm#Ground%20SAR%20Sweep

     “Sweep width values ranged from 142 meters for a high-visibility adult in winter-time deciduous forest of Virginia to 17 meters for a low-visibility adult in the dense marine forest of western Washington State.”

     The Washington test was done in a relatively flat area near US12 south of Mt Rainier.

     paulj
912. 909- Have any of you EVER looked at the track record for the NG and FLIR for Oregon?? As to their actual finds with FLIR?
913. I apologize for post #909. I don’t intend to participate here other than to have posted the material about our work. As far as I’m concerned, the facts have been found. It’s over. I’ll look for Kati Kim on one of those national TV shows where the host throws a lot of softball questions. That’s where this is headed. The rest? Over ‘n done with.
914. To all whom blog here- the search is over, the reports are in, and I am hanging up my blogging gloves!

     This search has had so many new experiences for me, from the actual search to the aftermath. Seeing media trucks multiply like rabbits, seeing the story grow from our small community to reaching people across the world. WOW is all I can say.

     I have met many new and exciting people and hope to keep in contact. However I am closing this stage of the search for me. I find that the post anymore are backtracking to info that we have covered and disputed, and is a subject that needs to be dropped and move on. We have learned what needs to be improved and changed and we can only learn and grow from here.

     People are going to say whatever they want to say, and believe whatever they want to believe, no matter how many reporters, or how many people analyze and go over the information, it is what it is. Those involved with the search and the immediate reporting, know the truth and whether it was portrayed in the proper manner that is a choice they have made to do with the information given and will now live with that.

     I was happy to have provided and insiders view for those of you here. I also am happy to continue answer questions for those who still feel the need to continue on this quest, please direct your questions to my email RogueRiverRat78@hotmail.com

     Good bye and good luck to you all!
915. 906. paulj
     quote from the very article you linked to:

     Searchers working their way down the drainage Tuesday discovered a spare pair of pants that Kim had left in what they hoped was a sign for them. From the air, teams spotted a collection of clothing and Jones helped coordinate lowering a Jackson County SWAT team deputy 200 feet down a rope to collect them.

     “Those were not there Monday,” Jones said. “He was still on the move Tuesday.”
916. Wow RRR. I was sitting here trying to figure out how to say the very same thing.

     I ditto 914. I will choose to spend my time working on the issues, not rehashing them over and over. That is not positive for me.

     Thank you all, you have been a tremendous support! You know my email as well.
917. R3

     if your still reading, I understand you reasoning to leave and have thought the same thing myself a few times the last day or two. I will probably stick around to see what comes about. But thanks for being here and providing that insiders view to us. Best wishes!
918. ah, okay, same to you Sara/JocoSAR as I said in 917 🙂
919. Sara & Emily, thank you so much for being here and adding so much to this very ongoing conversation. Getting to see your perspective has been priceless in trying to understand all of this.

     Next time you find yourselves near Portland, let me know, and maybe we can grab a Dutch Bros.

     Take care. Thank you again.
920. Bye girls!

     But wait before you leave what happened today? did you find him?

     Laurie
921. “Those were not there Monday,” Jones said. “He was still on the move Tuesday.”

     That may be true, but then again, it might not. We have learned that not everyone was quoted accurately in the media, and not every quote was true. It is possible, for example, that the earlier helicopter observers had missed that spot, or missed those items.

     I seem to recall that some SAR members thought they saw flickers of light down the drainage one of those nights. The final report does not give much credence to those sightings.

     There was also question as to why earlier flyovers had not seen James in the pool. The final report concluded that he probably was there, but face down.

     Even if James was alive Monday night, there were limits as to how much ground searchers could cover before sundown. As it was, the Eugene team spent Monday night in the drainage. I’d suggest looking at the list of participating agencies to see if there was anyone else that could have been inserted further down the canyon, especially if that meant spending the night there.

     paulj
922. Good evening all. Seems like tonight must be the right time, for I also am going to be signing off, to get back to providing my full attention to each day’s issues at hand, as well as my family as often as possible.

     I have appreciated the constructive input, as well as the individual and collective brainstorming, and I, too, have taken a few new ideas away from this group.

     If and when you all should decide on a prototype for an online MPERS or SAR assist, have JD give me a call, and we can consider testing it out – you all know where to find me. It has been my pleasure to provide some investigative insight from my perspective. I have very much appreciated the open-mindedness and willingness to appreciate “facts” from varied perspectives.

     I hope you will all take something positive away from this experience, and most of all, I hope you will all keep the Kim and Fleming families in your thoughts and hearts.

     Good night, all.
923. 921 – paulj
     Part III, pg. 42 – first paragraph
     This is another opinion, which corresponds with Jones.

     Furthermore, it was NOT conclusively decided he was there before Tues. but face down, it was only conclude this was a possibility. And a possibility which two different people think he was not there.

     I’m not putting it down as absoulte, I’m only saying there is a very great possibility he was still alive on Tues whereas you want to conclude beyond doubt he was not when the report does not conclude that beyond a doubt, therefore do not misrepsent what the report actually says.
924. Correction: Pg. 43
925. I’m not trying to argue that James was definitely dead by Tuesday. I realize that there are mixed clues. I only raised the issue because some here think that if only the SAR volunteers and leadership had really cared, they would have found a way of saving him before he died. I really don’t know what a 100 people and 4 helicopters could have done or not.

     Dare I ask what James was trying to do? Why leave the road? If he had gone a bit further on the road he would have passed a sign that point to Galice, 19 miles away. 6 miles further back he passed the turn off the BBL, gated and unlabeled. But shortly after that he rounded a point where he could see the Rogue River. After passing 4 shorter streams, why did he head down the longest one around toward the river? I’m sure fatigue, hunger, and cold clouded his judgement. But why did he keep heading down the drainage?

     No doubt he was still trying to reach help, but the further he worked his way down the drainage, the more he put himself, and any potential rescuers in danger. I’m not interested in blaming him, or arguing that the rescuers shouldn’t tried everything possible and safe to save him. But I don’t think you can justly micro analyse their motives and decisions without asking the same about him.

     In fact, when it comes to learning from the whole situation, I can learn more from looking at his choices, than by looking at those of the SAR effort. I am more likely to be a victim myself, than a rescuer. So I should focus on the kinds of choices that would keep me from being lost, and if lost, increase my chances of being found. That includes understanding that searchers are human, with limited knowledge, and capable of making mistakes, just like myself.

     paulj
926. Regarding eating the berries out of bear scat:
     Katie Kim Takes Issue with Report (not my headline theirs)
     http://www.koin.com/Global/story.asp?S=5963327&nav=menu494_1
927. 925. paulj
     Agreed on mixed clues. It was just sounding like you were trying to conclusively say he could not have survived until Tues. & that you were stating the report said that as well.

     From a stand point of personnal survival, yes, looking at what James did and didnt do and why he did or didn’t do things would be helpful, but those are questions that are never going to be answered beyond speculation, at best.
     Also, Katie said he had a wild eyed look when he left, so I would think that from fagiue, hungry, fear, feeling responsbile, fear a bear was following him (could he have gone in the creek thinking to kill his scent & put the bear off) and a thousand other emotions, I seriously doubt that he was making completely rational judgments. The only thing which can be concluded beyond doubt is he was highly movatied and covered a great deal of ground, very rough terrain, in a very short time.

     I’m not beating issues here. I had tried to hold off on comments as although I have read the reports, I have not completed reading the posts repsonses from JoCo on this blog, but there were several things when I saw posted, I didn’t feel I needed that info to respond to. Thus, I am still here because I want to read the entire responses from the time of the release of the report, which will probably take a couple of days. I’ve only been checking in to review the most current reports, checking back to refer to links, etc.

     The most important thing for me currently is the whole SAR process in Oregon is going to be reviewed & hopefully streamed lined and things made more clear for those in each community & yes, hopefully more funding.

     People are going to make mistakes, use poor judgement, etc. They always have and always will. I just don’t see the point on beating people up who are human. Even the most intelligent, most savy, most prepared, most cautious of people will at some point use poor judgement or make poor decisions. When you have an area where you encourage tourist to come and that area is especially dangerous to those unfamiliar with the area, then more resources, training, etc. should be given.
     I just wanted this not to be sweept under the rug and James dead be in vain because it was quickly clear this was an area which needed straighting up.
     Please excuse spelling, is late.
928. I would like to thank JoCoSar, Detective Mike (really appreciated your insight and perspective), Eric F, RRR and others involved firsthand for your dignified and thoughtful responses and feedback. I would also like to give huge thanks to JoeDuck for graciously allocating all this bandwidth! Where blame has been placed on this blog, it has been directed primarily at SAR efforts. In reading the report and your diligent feedback, I think you did a tremendous job, and we on the outside have little comprehension of the realities of the amount of strategizing and labor and uphill swimming involved. So, thank you.
929. I’ve thrown this out a couple times before, with no apparent interest on the blog…but wanted to make one last post about the issue.

     The week of Thanksgiving brought some very strong weather warnings on some TV news programs. I take note of the weather forecasts…for the last twenty years I have been
     trying to learn, informally, as much as I can about biological sensitivity. I have a lot of problems with
     biosensitivity…being aware of atmospheric conditions helps me cope.

     In one of his books, Felix Gad Sulman wrote that about a third of the population has weather sensitivity. Dr. Sulman, who was associated with the Hebrew University department of Applied Pharmacology at Jerusalem, wrote a great deal about the effects of wind in mountains…and
     about the effects of solar activity…especially serotonin irritation syndrome. Dr. Sulman wrote that atmospheric electrical effects can precede storm fronts by up to 48 hours.

     In addition to the terrestrial weather problems of late November, the sun became active. The sun is at the minimum period of it’s eleven year cycle, but activity increased at
     the end of November. NOAA’s Space Environment Laboratory
     website shows geomagnetic storming for much of the period
     of November 30th-December 1st. By December 5th flaring had progressed the XClass level. Micheal Persinger has published many articles regarding the effects of geomag on human behavior.

     If I remember correctly, S. W.Tromp’s book on Biometeorolgy
     …which discussed the effects of weather on many human health issues…mentions digestive problems, including gall
     bladder.

     It has been heartbreaking to me to read the reports…the
     comments that have led me to feel that my suspicions, that
     the health effects of weather and solar activity were factors in the Kim tragedy, may be correct. James Kim’s
     behavior makes so much more sense when you take those factors into consideration.
930. JoCoSar, RRR, Det. Mike,
     I second the thanks for being here and helping us gain insight. I agree that the rehashing lately has grown repetitive. I am hoping that all that was constructively looked at here will be of some value in future SAR efforts. I am VERY thankful to each of you who have so selflessly given your time, effort, engery, and devotion to saving lives. You have inspired me to volunteer locally for our SAR teams. I believe I may not be the only one and THAT my friends makes the time here worth it. Good luck. I will stay tuned to participate in anything that is proposed to help in future events, but I too feel as though this chapter has been thoroughly read and has come to its end. I look forward to implimenting the knowledge learned from this chapter as we continue to the next.
     I have SO enjoyed my conversations with ALL of you (okay, we know the exceptions). AND I lift a cup of Dutch Bro. to future efforts from those wanting to look forward.
931. (922) Hi Det. Mike, thanks for your participation and your time. You have helped clear up many of the issues!

     We look forward to getting more of your input and putting to test some of the things we are working.

     I haven’t been posting much I have been investing my time in implementing some of the early stage components of what is called: KimSAT, SAR Assist, and elements for the Danger Database.

     JD and I will be corralling some of the elements soon and will invite those that we feel can provide early input into the process.

     Realistically it will be several months before we feel something is rock solid and could be used for something “real”. We will want to shadow a couple of operations as test candidates while we shake out the system.

     Thanks again Det. Mike!

     PS – Maybe we can help out with some of that electronic reporting you guys REALLY should be doing!
932. Well I have to admit what started as a group effort seems to now be the glenn show. Well, look. Dont call me, I’ll call you.

     I’ve enjoyed being here and meeting all of you. But my vision of how this might work in the future is a bit different than what seems to have evolved. I guess I am not much interested in being involved anymore. Governments have enough rules…and the effort seems a bit too structured to me (wouldn’t know for sure as I haven’t been kept up to date, but that may be an effect of my perceived usefulness).

     Anyway, seriously, thanks for the discussion here at the blog. I find my energy would be better spent at this time on my own work and career, though I will never again think that one persons efforts might be unessesary. If I see an opportunity to help, I will try to do something, even if they are not asking for help!

     I myself still havn’t finished reading the interviews of the report, as that has never been my focus. I had a few areas that concerned or interested me, and found some of the things that bothered me none too surprising.

     I have appreciated everyone being here that was involved, but I do hope people in positions of authority, or responsibility when searching for missing people are not letting their personal differences with each other effect the communications. communications are really the most important thing and it IS lacking. I dont think its being too repetitive if its hardly been acknowledged as an issue. I havn’t said much about it myself as it hasn’t been my focus….and while its difficult to hear I think it is just as difficult for people like Frances and Lisa to take a stand for what they feel is right, even if it may not be easy to do or popular, since we like Sara and Emily.

     I dont think your being repetitive, and I thank you for having the strength to take a stance that is not easy given the situation at hand.

     Best Wishes everyone, and if you still have my email, use it, just not for any invitations to any danger database, thanks 🙂
933. ps! nancy! not to igonore your theory again. I have to say that is really interesting and my dad is always talking about that stuff and my eyes always glaze over like…here he goes again….

     but my dad is a pretty smart guy after all and you sound pretty smart too….maybe this will be my next area of research, sounds compelling!

     Thanks
934. (932) Mapper, I think you misunderstood my post. It was not intended as you seem to have taken it.

     A lot of the initial work that is being done is about getting servers setup, etc…not much anyone else can do about that. Similar to Joe getting the Danger Database set up on his platform.

     Once that is all in place we can start bringing people into the fold. If it is open to the “general public” before any of the infrastructure is completely deployed and initially tested it will be a nightmare (remember the time date stamp request) – if the core platform is not stable that will be the quickest way to turn people away.

     This whole process is going to take time – it is a definite measure twice cut once approach getting this up and running.

     I am also trying to be very respectful of other people’s time.

     Mapper I hope you re-consider your response – we really want your input.

     I have asked multiple times for people to email me if they wish to be involved and those that have emailed to me will certainly be involved. We are not trying to cut anyone out just not assuming that everyone wants part of the long-term effort here.
935. This sucks. Everyone is leaving when tghere are still so many questions unanswered.
936. 935/ dkf747: I understand that, but I too am disengaging. Absent a more complete account from Kati on some issues, I think all that can be answered has been answered, and from here on it would just be speculation and re-speculation on matters that can likely never be known with more certainty than we have now. We’re just re-tilling the same fields over and over.
937. PacNWer is posting on our forum. We’re going to allow the posts but will edit out any libel. We don’t believe that Kati Kim has been completely forthcoming to authorities.
938. I also want to truly thank everyone again.

     Hey Joe! 😀 Maybe you could start a new discussion page for people who just want to move on and discuss new and current SAR situations and issues in an open way as we have here.

     Although we have some considerable amount of time critiquing and trying to understand the dynamics of signs, maps, roads, related issues, and how they affected the outcome of this case – they do not have personal feelings so – that part was much easier!

     Search issues are also very important and they would be a lot easier to discuss if they could be discussed as objectively as signs and there were no personal feelings attached to them.

     Some of the issues brought up last night had been mentioned before but with all kinds of confusion around them. There were also new issues brought up, and to light last night that had not been before. And as Mapper said, there still important issues that haven’t even really brought up, because people are hesitant to discuss them.

     Time and time again, for me this is about James, and saving his life. That is why this issues interest me and I feel they are so important.

     That is not to say he did not make incredibly significant contributions to the difficulty of this situation, but I believe those are so much more straigh-forward to learn from in hindsight, than are the complexities of search efforts and issues.

     I feel I said most of what seemed most important after the outcome of the Report last night. But I do feel that these truly are very important issues when it comes to saving lives, and learning for the future…
939. 938- typo

     “Although we have spent a considerable amount of time, etc…”
940. 😥 Attention 😥

     To those who are leaving – goodbye and thanks to so many great people who have participated here. Welcome back anytime of course!

     I count myself in nothing else so happy
     As in a soul remembering my good friends
     Shakespeare in Richard II
941. Mapper, I too think my post was misunderstood. Im not calling anyone repetitive but MY questions that can be answered have been and MY other questions cant be answered by anyone other than kati. in her time. I think its great for anyone who wants to continue the discussion to do so.
     Lisa, I would be most interested in a new thread that discusses open sar cases and proceedures until what Glenn in working on is up and going. I enjoyed helping Sara and Emily yesterday and I personally feel for me that I would like to spend time moving in the direction of current SAR operations and implimenting the new ones.
     Mapper, I too, greatly admire your skills and I think they could be highly useful in future cases.
942. joeduck, the sad smileys. ah the power of the smileys.
943. Hey Joe! 😀 Maybe you could start a new discussion page for people who just want to move on and discuss new and current SAR situations and issues in an open way as we have here

     Lisa it’s a great idea and will be up very soon at DangerData.com. I let other things get in the way but that blog will be set up to handle each case separately, and the game plan is to interface the blog with the database that Glenn has been working on.

     I’ll try *harder* to get that going by tomorrow so we can open some discusssion there about the best way to use the “collective intelligence” of both locals and people checking in from all over. It’s not clear to me yet that this approach will be of much help to SAR efforts, but it’s worth a try.
944. It’s important for all of you to understand what the Internet is, and what it is not. The Internet consists of computers linked to the same telecom circuits that connect telephones and cable-equipped TV sets. The Internet is not magic.

     It’s just a conduit, like a telephone, a street or a pipe. In the Kim case, the Internet discussion added nothing to SAR. They had plenty of tips, and almost all of them were spurious. The only good tip was delivered the old fashioned way, by voice from John James to Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton. It was ignored, and James Kim died because it was ignored.

     Internet tips. We’ve seen suggestions that SAR operations be more accessible to tips delivered via the Internet. We remind readers that the Kim tragedy was caused by the age-old basic human failures of haste, carelessness and inattention. We caution against regarding the Internet, or any other technology-based approach, as a panacea. As with phone tips, Internet tips need careful screening to avoid information overload and well-intentioned meddling by overenthusiastic members of the public.
945. As a close friend of Kati and the girls, I especially want any of the SAR and MPERS folks who were involved in this case to know that the Kim family friends all greatly appreciate the efforts you put into this case. I know it was hard, it got bigger than any of you could have expected, but you kept on going and I know that you were all personally invested in it. There are no words that can share with you the gratitude that I have in my heart when I’m able to see the girls each week and be thankful they were brought back to us.

     For any of the random people out on the Internet who have said or implied that we don’t appreciate the help given to this family – please know that is as far from the truth as you can get.

     We should be able to release the date of the public memorial for James in the coming week I think. Please know we would be honored if any of the SAR/MPERS personnel wanted to attend, and get in touch with me if you need help with accommodations in SF if you want to come but need assistance.
946. My sincere thanks to all as well. What an incredible assembly of people Joe’s blog has seen. I’ll probably check in once in awhile just to see if everyone has really left, but like most have said, it’s time to shift my focus back to my own life.

     Kati and family remain always in my heart – sadly, they do not have the same luxury to just decide it’s time to “tune out.” For them, this is their real life. Still, in my opinion, Kati’s strength and courage (along with the wonderful support of her family and friends like Soctt) will pull her through to the other side of all of this in time, even if it’s sure to be a bumpy ride from here to there, and even if she will probably always miss James.

     If things do get off the ground and I can be of any help in any future SAR efforts, please let me know.

     Anyone else can reach me through my website (link in my name below) if you’d like to keep in touch.
947. re 944. this is a rather insulting post to the collective intelligence of this blog. i thought you had bid ado….ah I see you are not true to your word.

     the internet is a resource and should be used accordingly. any resource can be misused….as mr. wilson has clearly shown us that.
948. Eric F.
     Before you move on also. I would like to ask you a question. Is it possible or practical for a individual with a Cingular family cell phone to come up with a directional antenna or shielding to determine the direction of the receiving cell site? If so how? I thank you for your great input here. I have learned from it.
949. 944/Charles – I thought you were leaving?

     It’s hard not to feed the trolls.

     Charles read above where Eric Fuqua notes that because of our website Noah was able to contact LE and the family and begin the process of getting the cell phone tower ping data presented. The Internet played an *extremely* valuable role in this case. It’s more than a tip generation issue, it’s a communications issue.

     I was able to keep up to date with as many as 20-30 friends of the Kim family, email information back and forth with people in Oregon, and make new contacts almost hourly with people who were extremely helpful. Volunteers were emailing us pictures from their cell phones and providing email updates. The Internet proved to be most useful as a support network for the family, friends and volunteers – which is not something to be overlooked. The family and friends of missing persons are going through one of the most difficult things they will ever go through.

     Since I can’t help seeing misinformation go unchecked, the Kim family visited a boutique or boutique’s after they had brunch in Portland. In your thorough research you must have missed comments from related parties earlier in this blog which mentioned they probably left brunch around 2pm. I know they went to at least one boutique as I have email from the boutique owner. Your ‘fact’ that because the people in Wilsonville gave the interview twice, it must be true falls a bit short in my book. Does that mean that the lady in Port Orford who gave the same interview to LE, the family and our volunteers (a minimum of 3 times) must be true too? Many of the tips received were interviewed multiple times – and nearly all were shown to be false, even though several of them gave the same story over and over. Just because Wilsonville was in their path does not mean that there was any grain of truth there.
950. cd (#947), James Kim died as the result of the negligence of four people, and the family was rescued by the effort of someone uninvolved with any SAR operation. The Internet was irrelevant. That’s not an insult, that’s a fact.

     As for our website, it contains the definitive account of the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6. The only error we made was in describing the Kims’ resting place as within the Wild Rogue Wilderness. Once we were told of the error, we fixed it. Other than that, all we’ve gotten from the likes of you is a whole lot of ad hominem attacks, likely because we placed responsibility without fear or favor.

     If you have specific complaints about our facts or conclusions, tell me what they are. We will check them, and if we are wrong we will fix them.
951. Scott (#949), the Kims were placed at a tourist information center in Wilsonville between Noon and 1:30 p.m. The employee was interviewed twice by the Oregon State Police, and the director of the center re-verified it on Dec. 7th.

     We don’t believe that Kati Kim was completely forthcoming in her statements to investigators.
952. We have never argued that the Internet is useless, but only that it was irrelevant to the SAR operations in the Kim case. Its utility in future SAR operations will be similar to that of telephone tips. Information must be screened carefully, and claims judged against a number of factors ranging from hysteria (the Port Orford case) to the potential desire to provide self-serving accounts (the boutique, and Kati Kim’s conflicting statements to authorities).
953. Concerning FLIR.

     My understanding is that FLIR is great if you are a drug interdiction pilot and want to track hot airplane engines or hot motorvehicle engines against much cooler backgrounds.

     Terrain and FLIR tend to show spurious ‘hot spots’ that are residual heat from the sun on a rock, differing soil patches, vegetation related anomalies, etc. I don’t know if the “signature” of persons and nocturnal animals is greatly different or not. I know that FLIR is much sought after but don’t know if it is truly all that useful.

     Disappearances: well perhaps I should join those who are leaving but for the nonce I will be staying. I played no role in the search and feel admiration for those who did. Its sort of like that volunteer who was inadequately dressed: you can at least recognize that he was indeed out there doing something! I sat home at my computer screen…ofcourse I’m half the continent away so that was probably a good thing to do!
954. I don’t really see, at this point in time, how James & Katie spent their day if of any conquence to this issue nor is it anyone’s business. It was an issue when their location was trying to be established, but now it is a non-issue.
955. Ofcourse its not relevant…except to trolls and those who wish to attack someone simply for fun. The Oregon Chamber of Commerce would be the first to agree that visitors should drive slowly and stop often at places that happen to interest them rather than go speeding by. Nothing sinister at all. Except in the minds of those who seek out such illusory distractions for the fun they get from it.
956. Is there any thread that is either on this site or elsewhere wherein a discussion of ‘blog versus wiki’ might be more appropriate? I don’t think blogs work out too well. If one were looking for a cell number it sure would take an effort to find it and yet I’m sure it was discussed often.
     I think Wikis would be superior but have little real expereince with them on any topic.
957. I too am going to hang in for a time, and I cannot express my appreciation and gratitude enough to those who participated in the serious discussion (and the not so serious discussions at times). People came together from all locations and areas of expertise or just because they cared deeply about what happened to this family.

     I had both personal and professional reasons to be here, and I will continue to keep up with the issues we have raised here. The troll types are rushing to fill the void, and perhaps they envision a mass migration to their site. I hardly think so.
958. I’ve been away for days, and now, with less available time, can only scan through the long trail of messages.

     Thanks, to those with first-hand involvement who have participated here and offered their insight. Kati’s Dad, Det. Mike, Eric, Scott, John James, JCS and RRR. Your contributions have provided a clearer understanding of the events behind this search. And thanks again to JD for making this forum possible.
959. Much has been said about the fateful decisions by the Kims on that weekend in Oregon… missed exit, not fueling, weather, maps, roads, gates, preparedness… as discussed very thoroughly here.

     When attempting to understand the reasoning behind some of these decisions, I see the major fateful choice as this: not having a definite travel plan for their return to SF, and not leaving PDX until 5pm.
960. Re:949

     Scott please allow me to add my thanks for your contributions here on the blog.

     I too, have wondered why certain people choose to state as “fact”, interaction with the Kims, that has never been proven. Could it be they have an agenda to promote?

     I’d like to leave you with two of my favorite quotes in regard to a poster we all wish would follow through on his self described imminent absence.

     Let us be thankful for the fools; but for them the rest of us could not succeed. ~ Mark Twain

     The trouble ain’t that there is too many fools, but that the lightening ain’t distributed right. ~ Mark Twain

     A very smart man, that Mark Twain.
     ADK
961. http://www.ilovegrantspass.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18808&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

     Just a forum on the most recent search in Josephine County
962. This morning, (Jan. 22) I talked with Mark Ottenad, the guy who runs the Wilsonville visitor center. Two of his people saw the Kims there that day between noon and 1:30. One of them talked with the family and the other saw them but didn’t talk with them. Their recollections are firm on all counts: The content of conversations, the timing and the identity of the people.

     Mr. Ottenad said the employee who dealt with the Kims gave them an Oregon highway map and a magazine about the coast. Mr. Kim asked about scenic routes to the coast, and the employee told them not to use Forest Service routes at this time of year. When the employee saw TV coverage of the Kim case, she called the Oregon State Police, who interviewed her twice. A second employee recalled seeing the family, but did not speak with them.

     The employee who dealt with the Kims recalls them being there between Noon and 1:30 p.m., probably closer to 1:30 p.m. than to Noon. Was the recollection firm as to timing as well as content? I asked. Yes, Mr. Ottenad replied.

     This information contradicts Mrs. Kim’s statements to authorities about not having stopped in Wilsonville and having left Portland at 5 p.m. on Nov. 25. It also contradicts postings by Scott Nelson Windels, someone who identifies himself as a friend of Kati Kim. He has claimed that the Kims had brunch in Portland until 2 p.m. that day, and then visited boutiques in Portland. Mr. Windels claims to have e-mails from the boutique, which he has not named.

     I don’t think Mrs. Kim has been completely forthcoming with authorities. Mr. Windels has organized fund-raising efforts on behalf of Mrs. Kim and her family. I hope Mrs. Kim will eventually clear up these and other contradictions.
963. Fault?
     I dont really know what role all this discussion of ‘fault’ or ‘blame’ should have. We all are perhaps curious as to why things went wrong but the SAR people are more concerned with ‘where’ than ‘why’.

     Now as to having a ‘travel plan’? Or a ‘Flight plan’ of some sort: one of the pleasures of vacation travel is the ‘vagabonding factor’ or the degree of free time to wander as one’s whims dictate. Stop for coffee at a coffee shop and see a notice on the wall about some local event and decide to stay for it. Would more frequent and specific emails to their housekeeper have helped? Yes, most definitely. Look at how all the people with whom they were generally in telephonic or email contact lost contact with them but did not become concerned about their safety.

     If they attempted to get a signal once to call 911, they probably should have made repeated efforts from other areas of ‘high ground’ or whatever. They certainly have called a friend prior to getting concerned enough to call 911. “Hi. This is the Kim Family, we are on a narrow road in Oregon having left Roseburg and hoping to make it over the mountains to Gold Beach. Its now..Date/Time. We wall call back tomorrow by NewDate/NewTime to let you know if we made it safely. Sure it would have been a great idea. The trouble is nothing really put them on the ‘alert’. And as was posted upthread by Det.Wilson “people tend to have positive expectations”. Even a young lady who just had a bad experience with a blind date still hopes for the best next time, even though it may be a challenge. We hope things will come out okay. We know the Kims were perhaps slow to come to an awareness of danger, but they did react to it in a reasonable manner. It was unfortunate that they made somewhat less than optimal decisions and may have made a few strange ones, but in general their performance was perfectly reasonable and not at all cavalier or irresponsible.
964. I’m sure that they could have made a ‘safety call’ of some sort if they had thought of it as their situation worsened but the one thing is that they didn’t and they were without any of the many ‘techie devices’ that might have helped them.

     No one really became concerned about them for quite some time and that was very unfortunate but after all that is partly what vacations are for… to get away from the usual responsibilities and contacts that have to be made.
965. Don’t you think people should be held responsible for their actions?
966. This morning, (Jan. 22) I talked with Mark Ottenad, the guy who runs the Wilsonville visitor center. Two of his people saw the Kims there that day between noon and 1:30. One of them talked with the family and the other saw them but didn’t talk with them. Their recollections are firm on all counts: The content of conversations, the timing and the identity of the people.

     Its Oregon, don’t you know all Asians look alike? 😉 Now before anyone gets upset, my daughter is asian, and I know of what I speak! Do I think a couple with an asian man, his white wife and 2 kids stopped in Wilsonville? YES! Do I think it was the Kims? NO! Same with the sighting in the coast….. There is more than one couple in the state that match their description!

     Show me their signature in the visitor book and verify it and I will believe it, until then, it was someone else.
967. I wonder about one thing: would there have been analog cell phone reception out there, in areas where there was no digital? I have kept an analog-capable phone specifically for potential incidents like the above. Because I’ve had the habit of wandering off onto back country forest service roads by myself on many occasions. I wish that analog phone service weren’t being phased out.
968. Laurie (#966), they didn’t sign the register. A lot of people don’t. I stop at places like that and don’t sign a register. I don’t see the point in it.

     In any case, it’s ceertainly possible that another Asian male with a white wife and two children stopped at the Wilsonville center on Nov. 25, and asked for information about the coast and a scenic route there. I don’t think it’s very likely, but it’s possible.

     We don’t believe that Mrs. Kim has been entirely forthcoming with authorities. Moreover, the brunch timing doesn’t make sense either. The OSSA timeline gives the time of the Kims’ brunch at 10 a.m. in one spot, and “morning” in another. It ended at 2 p.m.?

     That’s an awfully long time to sit there with a couple of little kids. Frankly, if there’s any heroism involved in this thing I’d say that the hero is anyone who could start a brunch at 10 a.m. and sit there with two little kids until 2 p.m.

     In any case, although I have my personal suspicions about everything, on our website the furthest I’m willing to go is to say that there is a potential 3-4 time gap that has not been explained, and that we don’t believe Kati Kim has been completely forthcoming with authorities.

     I realize that makes people mad here, but there’s nothing I can do about that.
969. 966/Laurie – Probably the same family that the lady in Port Orford saw. =)
     Stop in Wilsonville at 1pm. Roughly 5 hours driving time to Port Orford put someone there no earlier than 6pm. I think the Port Orford lady says the sighting there was about 8pm.
     I received a lot of emails from other travelers that weekend, many with families, who wrote in because they ran into inclement weather in Oregon and had a super strong connection. Due to the holidays there were probably a lot of folks driving through OR that day.
970. There were two witnesses in Wilsonville, not one. The Oregon State Police and the Portland police conducted separate interviews. One of them was done by Det. Michael Weinstein, someone who thisd group regards as reliable.

     The OSSA report shows that there was one witness in Port Orford, and that state police were advised by others there that the witness was a “drama queen” who was unreliable. Another witness near Bear Camp Road was described in the OSSA report as “intoxicated.”

     It’s not reasonable to equate those witnesses with the Wilsonville employees and the executive director of the Chamber of Commerce there. We don’t believe Mrs. Kim has been forthcoming in her accounts to authorities. As for Mr. Windels, perhaps he can provide the name of the boutique and the person who sent him the e-mail?
971. (965) Absolutely Charles, especially someone like you! I truly hope several of the people that have been tarnished by your recklessness step up and sue the pants off of you. You deserve all the grief their lawyers can give to you!

     I am not one for lawsuits but if I have ever seen someone beg for one it certainly is you.
972. 970/I’m not going to release details of any emails I received through the website, that would violate the privacy of that individual without their consent.

     If you review page 13 of the PDX police report, you’ll note that it is mentioned they were planning to visit other boutiques in PDX. Seems to make pretty logical sense to me. If I were an art gallery owner, I’d visit art galleries in other towns. I’m part owner of a small chai tea company in the Bay Area, so I always try chai and stop in coffee shops everywhere I go. Small business owners typically have an interest in similar businesses and checking them out for ideas and comparisons.
973. Scott, I don’t believe you ever received such an e-mail.
974. I will confess that I have not been reading pac’s or Mr. Wilson’s posts for quite some time now, and it is much better that way! I wish it weren’t necessary to skip anyone’s posts, but alas, some have made it seem so… And since we live in a democratic society I recommend that anyone who does not wish to read my posts, does not, although I do not expect to be posting as much as before… 😀
975. “A wretched hive of trolls and flamers. We must be cautious.”
976. I never trust anyone who’s always looking to take and never give anything but a bigmouthed opinion.

     And I don’t like people who tell me how right they are. Especially people whose claims to be a joornalist look flimsy as the day is long.
977. There’s another way to look at the timeline issue on Nov. 25th. I say it as someone who’s done the drive from Seattle to San Francisco by way of the Oregon Coast and Mendocino (the Kims’ plan) at least half a dozen times.

     If you’re going to drive from Portland to Gold Beach, the 300 mile map distance is misleading. Being former Oregon residents at least one of whom had driven from Eugene to Florence, the Kims knew this. Only about half, or maybe two-thirds, of that drive is via Interstate 5, and the rest is other roads.

     Oregon Hwy. 99 to 38 to U.S. 101 at Reedsport is one way. Another way is Oregon Hwy. 42 at Roseburg to below Bandon. That’s what anyone who knows the area does. From Portland to Gold Beach either of those ways takes 6 or 7 hours not counting pit stops.

     If they hung around Portland until 4 p.m. (not 5 p.m. like Mrs. Kim told the police, because you can’t get from Portland to Halsey by 5:45 p.m.), that’s their first big error because when you include rest rooms, gas and food you’re not in Gold Beach until after midnight.

     Which is a bad idea if you’re going to be driving to Mendocino the next day, because that drive is a real haul via U.S. 101 and California Hwy. 1. That road twists and turns like crazy, and if you start from Gold Beach at 10 a.m. you’ll arrive toward the end of the afternoon at the earliest. You’ll be frazzled, tired and maybe carsick.

     From Halsey, Ore. starting at 6 p.m., you’re looking at arrival in Gold Beach 1 in the morning via Hwy. 38 or Hwy. 42. My guess is that the Kims knew this, and that especially James Kim knew it, and that he figured the other route would be a shortcut because that’s what it looked like on the Oregon map.

     I further guess that Kati Kim decided to lie to the investigators about stopping in Wilsonville because then she’d have had to admit to being warned about the hazardous nature of the journey.

     What I still wonder is what they spent that extra time doing. It’s highly doubtful in my mind that they visited any boutiques. I think Scott never got an e-mail from a boutique, or that if he did, this was arranged after the fact to conceal that time being spent in some other fashion.

     The OSSA report states that Kati Kim told them the final two days in the car were very tense because she blamed him for getting them in their predicament. What was she mad at him about? Taking Bear Camp Rd instead of Hwy 42? Doing whatever they did for those three hours? Both?

     I believe there’s an untold story here. Kati Kim’s statements to investigators don’t match what others have said, and logic doesn’t hang together either. I think she has a different story that she doesn’t want to tell, and I suspect that Scott and a few other people know what that story is.

     This website has never wanted to explore that side of things. Why not is a good question, but there’s no denying that direct challenges to Kati Kim’s version of events have been routinely removed from this website. I expect that this one will be, too.
978. I repeat, other than in relation to trying to locate the Kims during the initial phase of the search, once their location was narrowed down, what they did that day, short of committing a criminal act, is of no matter. If Mr. Wilson thinks they committed a criminal act, and feels he has proof thereof, then he should report that to the proper authorities with his proof.

     Mr. Wilson clearly has an agenda against the Kims. He is going around questioning people about the Kims activities – he is NOT an official law enforcement official, he is not an official detective, he is official nothing other than trying to spear a bereaved family to further his own un-disclosed agenda.

     Glen, like you I’m not much of one for promoting lawsuits, but if I were Katie Kim, this is one begging for it and I think the standards to met have already been met by Mr. Wilson.
     libel – harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast
     In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions provide legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to punish various kinds of defamation.

     Joe, I ask you, please do not delete Mr. Wilson’s posts. Please keep this public record of Mr. Wilson’s accusations up for public view.

     The mistake many people make is they think sitting behind a keyboard makes them immune to our laws and makes them anonymous. NO ONE on the internet is anonymous if the law deems they need to be identified.

     Scott, I understand your intent and frustration, but he doesn’t deserve your attention and he does not rate having to prove anything to kind of attention.
979. It speaks volumes that, rather than deal with the substance I’ve offered, your group offers ad hominem attacks.
980. I don’t know what the Kims did during the missing 3 or 4 hours, Frances. I tend to doubt it was anything criminal. It could have been as simple as visiting the wineries between Wilsonville and Halsey. Nothing illegal about that. Maybe they stopped and visited another friend. It’s impossible to say.

     But I do not believe that Mrs. Kim has been forthcoming with investigators, nor do I believe Scott’s tale about boutiques.
981. OFFTOPIC – But for those of you that are stuck on the smileys here, you can now take them with you!

     http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/drivemocion–led-display-for-your-car-230579.php
982. If I were only still part of the Fanstastic Four! I would just have to say: FLAME ON!
983. Tell me everything, Mr. Fantastic Four. I promise I will use your precious woids, even the funny almost Latin ones in italics, to serve my cause and my cause only.

     Precious… my preciousssss….
985. … perhaps a good time for one of my favorite Dostoyevsky quotes of all, also from “The Brothers Karamazov”:

     “Above all, don’t lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to such a pass that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love, and in order to occupy and distract himself without love he gives way to passions and coarse pleasures, and sinks to bestiality in his vices, all from continual lying to other men and to himself.”
986. Well, looks like the conversation has perhaps come to an end. I also would like to thank JD and all of the people who joined this blog. I originally came on because this was a great source for information about the search. Then it was a place of anon mourning for someone we didn’t know, that quickly turned into a place to hash out why, how, when, etc. Finally it became a decompression spot for those that were in the throes of it all, including Kati’s Dad, Kati’s friend, detectives, SAR folk, Eric, John James…really it is pretty amazing what has transpired here.

     I’ve learned a lot and I feel like I’ve also gotten a view of a community that I otherwise would never have known about. It looks like your neck of the woods is absolutely beautiful, and I will definitely put it on my list of places to visit at some point.

     I do wish everyone healing, and fully appreciate the need to move on. There are many people in this process beyond the Kim and Fleming families that were seriously affected by this tragedy, and I feel for all of you, I really do.

     Good luck to everyone.
987. Whoa. Don’t feed the trolls, folks.

     I am also going to be less on this comment page — not that I was ever on it much — but I will be around JoeDuck’s blog, and I encourage everyone else to check out Joe’s other entries. He’s well worth reading.

     And please don’t forget: even if only vultures remain on this field, worthwhile things were done here. Give DangerData a look some day.

     Be excellent to each other!
988. Goodbye Tommo, goodbye Joy…or should I say, until we meet again? Worthwhile things WERE done here, no matter what the trolls say.
989. Joe Duck if you ever learn anything definitive about this Charles Wilson character I would appreciate some feedback via email. He has surely put a good bit of effort into his investigative website so he must have some motive. Likewise, if anything comes to my attention I’ll let you know. Looks like this portion of the blog is about to about to fizzle away, but please feel free to contact me anytime.

     PS: Pac has no finesse but I think he is more astute than Charles.
990. Katie’s Dad,
     I’m not a very ‘religious’ person, but a book which I think might be interesting to Katie, (and then might not 🙂 )
     is “the five people you meet in heaven” by Mitch Albom.
     For the most part of the book, I’m going, ok, so yea?… but the end ties it together. Is a short and easy read.

     Best wishes you, your wife and especially to Katie & her babies.
991. (992/PS) Kati’s Dad — touche!

     As this amazing thing winds down, I was interested to take note of how many have been here since page 1. Now more than 10,000 messages later, we are still hearing from those who began it all — Glenn, Joy, Kip, Lisa, Maggie, Mapper, Tara, Tommo, Paul, RodneyG, and of course the Mighty Duck himself, Joe.

     Thanks to all. Peace be with you.
992. Kati’s Dad – I had to pop in just to say that you will all remain in my thoughts. Thank you very much for being here. I think many of us felt relief when you showed up because we could tell that Kati had amazing support in her family. Please, take care.
993. From us Offals to y’all sheeple:

     We know this Kim search thing was a fiasco. But nobody’s really caught on to that, thanks largely to our smooth cover our butts efforts here and elsewhere. Ya gotta admit it bin a noone too shabby whitewashing effort we done! We’ve come outta this thing looking not too bad!

     Must say that we succeeded pretty good in covering up the fact that the only doer succeeders in the entire saga were both non Offals. John Rachor and Eric Fuqa. Kudos to our Deputy and SAR boss for denigrating local John James’ testimony, most successfully. Pheeew! We could not have two of our own revealed as having been grossly negligent. Our Deputy did a fine job staying out of the limelight. Hardly anybody got it that he botched his search duties. His OSSA testimony was neatly hollow enough that it avoided attracting scrutiny that could have revealed him as a sleazy sloth. Our officer in charge guy derelict? …Just because he was at home refusing to be disturbed & cozily glued to his boob tube… while not far away James desperately needing his help was dying a horrible death? Nah! It was Ander’s day off and days off are an Offal’s sacrosanct right, don’t ya know? Hmmm, our sheriff, on full salary, is nowhere to be seen while the helpless Kims were lost for over a week in his jurisdiction. Guess he just wasn’t aware that his job was “to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property”.

     Gotta go now, can’t afford to get bogged down rehashing old stuff over and over …we need to be getting on with pressing bureaucratic busyness. nice know’in ya’all {suckers},, bye bye
994. Lambasting aside, I have realized that officialdom often tends to attract a certain type of individual where getting the job done efficiently is secondary to experiencing the power and importance (glory) of the position. Busyness counts but if the rules of employment permit it would not be unexpected if the individual takes advantage of the opportunity and goofs off when able to get away with it. eg. The Sheriff and the Under Sheriff

     Private enterprise on the other hand attracts people who naturally seize the initiative and are fulfilled whenever they give their all to the task or operation at hand — John Rachor and John James being fine role models.
995. Gosh, Kip, let’s hope no one here calls you names for blaming the SAR managers.
996. Kip, sadly, I agree with you. I didn’t want to think this way – I gave the benefit of doubt – I tried to find facts to think otherwise – alas, I could find none. After the report, when the doubters started being vocal, the sudden and hasty retreat of certain persons here just confirmed for me. And even more sadly, there were so many officals from other area, wanting & waiting to do the right thing, who did care.
     The efforts to try to make Mr. James their scapegoat was reprehensible.

     The only solice I find is the governor’s review.
997. Sorry, I don’t see who has been trying to make Mr James a scapegoat.

     But if we are going praise him as the only person who showed initiative, could someone tell me how many hours he devoted to this case? Do you care anything about the time put in by the organized SAR volunteers? What about the Eugene Mtn team that spent Monday night down Windy Ck? How about the Jackson Co SAR helicopter pilot? Can you even tell me his name? Did he put in as many flight hours as Rochor?

     Maybe Spencer Kim hired the wrong crew. He could have hired a couple of locals who knew the territory, and saved himself a bunch of cash. A snow machine and 2 person chopper was all he needed.

     Who is exercising this fabulous private initiative in the current search near Hog Ck?

     paulj
998. I agree that the “non-agency assets” were poorly used. I mentioned upthread that the father appeared to be ready to ‘throw dollars at the problem’ but seemed somewhat at a loss as to where to aim them.

     It is true that a private and uncoordinated helicopter spotted the car but was unable to remain on scene or to drop rescue equipment.

     I do wonder WHY the ONG was so desirous of complete solitude, but mainly I wonder WHY the family’s initial efforts to augment the search were concentrated along route 101. This seemed of little potential and frankly it seemed almost whimsical given the lack of supporting evidence.

     “Air assets” is a catchy phrase now. I think that Josephine County should become a little more acquainted with some of the details involved.

     I would like to know:

     Would an Aviation Re-Fueling Center have added much time to the “Time Over Target” figures? What time was ‘lost’ flying from relatively nearby fields that had established refueling equipment and personnel.

     Would a local RC Model Aircraft Club have been able to supply a video equipped surveillance aircraft? What would its Time Over Target have been?

     My general impression is that there was a good deal of official “attitude” against the private efforts.
999. Private initiative:
     I doubt that very many are exercising a private initiative if the missing person in the Hog Creek area is someone with a history of meth adiction. Meth addicts usually don’t have wealthy friends and relatives. Sort of a Public Defender versus private counsel situation.

     I don’t think Josephine County forbids the wealthy to spend their money as they see fit and neither does Josephine County announce at its borders that rural, scenic areas often have volunteer-only fire departments. Just as the volunteer firemen show up with minimal equipment and minimal training and minimal experience in rural areas without a tax base, so too the SAR people show up with more courage than computers.

     The helicopter pilot was doing a methodical grid search, the local resident was advising a focus on a shiny nugget rather than the ore. If we look back, the shiny nugget probably should have been given greater attention.
1000. This is the latest on the ongoing search near Hog Cr. or the latest I could find. this is from a family friend close to the search. he was asked if there was any new news. he answered no then :

      “Everyone was told there would be on ongoing investigation now that the SAR excercise is done. Gil told them the department would keep in contact. There wasn’t really any more search techniques they could use in the area. The daughte’s co-worker and Curt’s family went back out today to continue looking in other areas. I believe they also handed out pictures on a flyer to people downriver.

      I feel so sad for the family and friends. The not knowing would overwhelm me. You don’t know the outcome, you can’t have a service and closure, and it’s a constant weight on your mind every day.

      By the way, even the helo that worked the river yesterday was a volunteer. It was the same individual who found Kati Kim. He landed at the boat landing, came and talked to the family and friends, and coordinated with SAR.”

      looks like heros just never quit. there were lots of heros in the kim story and some of them in JoCo are back at work.
1001. The Kims’ negligence was always a taboo subject on this forum, but wherever that sentiment was permitted to be expressed it was dominant.

      When the Washington Post published Spencer Kim’s misleading and incorrect article about his son’s death, their comments section was overwhelmingly against the Kims. When Salon magazine published its balance article, the comments section was overwhelmingly against the Kims. When I started a topic on the Grants Pass forum, 40 of 45 people responding to a poll said that the Kims were entirely or primarily to blame for their predicament.

      The public at large figured this one out. The group on this website got it wrong. The main lesson to be drawn from the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6 is not about SAR failures, although there were some. It is about individual negligence, primarily the failure of two adult travelers to exercise the care and prudence that could ordinarily be expected of two parents.

      If there’s a book or a movie that comes out of it, I hope that it will acknowledge the Kims’ primary failures, and will untangle the accounts that Mrs. Kim gave to authorities after she and her children were rescued.
1002. Golly, Chuckie, it’s something to look forward to, isn’t it? A book or a movie that plays to your agenda! Wow.
1003. One of my postings at Salon:

      Kati Kim’s statements to Oregon authorities were a circus of contradictions. She told authorities that they didn’t stop at a tourist information center in Wilsonville, and authorities accepted her at face value. They shouldn’t have done so, because two separate employees saw the Kim family there and one of them talked to them.

      The employee who talked to them had some very specific recollections. One was the timing of the visit. The other was the identity of the Kims. The other was the content of the conversation, which consisted of the Kims getting an Oregon highway map, asking for scenic routes to the coast and being told not to use Forest Service roads at this time of year.

      Outsiders to this story can be forgiven for scratching their heads as to why any of this matters, but this information is actually the key to understanding what happened. The Kims were running very late on Nov. 25 and most likely never intended to use any road but the hazardous wilderness path that they took.

      It’s not exactly clear why they were running so late, because there is a three- to four-hour gap in the timeline. Mrs. Kim’s evident lack of candor to investigators might have been partly motivated not just by a desire to conceal the advice they’d been given to avoid wilderness roads, but also by a desire to conceal the time gap.

      In northern Oregon, a fair number of people visit a series of wineries located between Wilsonville and Halsey, where the Kims got gas more than four hours after picking up the map. Problem is that the place they got gas is about an hour away from where they got the map.

      Think about it a second: They’re warned not to take the back roads, and then they waste several hours at wineries. By then they’re running quite late. This would explain why they took the wilderness route, which on the map appears to be a shortcut. It also might explain why, in the final couple of days before James Kim left for help, his wife was angry at him.

      In the words of the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association:

      Kati was questioned further on this issue and she just went on to say that it was stressful as she had been angry about James getting the family in the predicament they were in and that he was intent on “doing something” to help.

      We think the full story of the Kim Tragedy has yet to be told. We do not believe that Mrs. Kim has been fully forthcoming with investigative authorities.
1004. Do hobby RC flyers routinely fly the toys over densely wooded ravines looking for glints of light and patches of clothing in pools? Do they fly where there is virtually no hope of recovering a downed toy? Are there SAR units of this nature anywhere else in the country. For all I know, there might not even be such a club in Grants Pass.

      As for field refueling, I suspect Carson has a lot more experience in setting up that sort of thing than anyone in the Sheriffs office. From what I can tell they run logging operations in the area, and help with forest fire fighting. In the Kims case, the only area where flying was concentrated was at the end in Big Windy. I doubt if they could have established a fuel depot closer than Merlin, though Carson did use Black Bar Lodge as something of a base.

      Drones with heat seeking equipment were donated to the Mt Hood search effort, but for one reason or another couldn’t be used.

      paulj
1005. Paulj,,,
      I do not know. You might want to contact the Rogue Eagles at their upcoming meeting at the Lions center in Medford, OR and ask them what capabilities their model aircraft have for flying along roads while carrying a camera-payload. I assume that since this was BLM land and the BLM already has tested model aircraft for surveillance that it might be a useful idea. You apparently think it would not be useful. You may well be correct.
1006. The focus of the OSSA report is on command and communications. Note the number of organization charts, and questions like ‘who appeared to be in charge’, ‘who was the IC’.

      Communications also featured in their recommendation regarding the use of ‘self-dispatched’ volunteers.

      In a more formal debriefing, the tracks that John James found might a have received the attention they deserved.

      The same goes for the tracks that Rochor found. I recall he told Randy Jones about them. I’d have to double check the report, but I don’t think he reported them to anyone else. Randy, though, did go out and check the tracks himself. Again, I’d have to look at the report to see how Randy’s finding entered the group decision process.

      Fuqua contributed useful information as well, but since it was novel, he had to personally explain it. He may have had problems getting the phone numbers from officials, but, if I am not mistaken, the phone that gave the location data was the company phone that officials did not know about.

      A forest service team climbed down into the canyon without anyone else knowing about it. They had to taken out by chopper.

      The SWAT member who retrieved the items from James’s last resting spot was reluctant to long line from a Carson helicopter because he had not trained with them.

      Individual initiative is can be a good thing, but most of the searching in this country is done by organized volunteer SAR groups who have trained together, and are willing to work with some sort of centralized command.

      paulj
1007. 1003/Snarls: Your allegation that they stopped at a winery has no more support than PacNWer’s laughable allegation that they were smoking pot. It is COMPLETE speculation and has no foundation other than your very overworked imaginations. It is a very loaded comment in that it implies they had mental impairment from drinking & were irresponsible & reckless in that they were drinking & driving with their kids in the car.

      You seem to be quite the detective, so tell me, where are your witnesses ?? Where are the winery employees coming forth to say the Kim’s stopped and sampled at their wineries ?? There aren’t any because IT DIDN’T HAPPEN. In a case with this much publicity and press coverage in Oregon they surely would have stepped forward by now.

      It’s just another baseless attempt by you to smear their character. It is far more plausible that a young family that resides in a state with a high sales tax, driving through one with no sales tax, would be shopping – especially with Christmas coming up and having 2 kids…but that doesn’t fit your pre-set agenda to disparage the Kims in any and every way you can, so it is disregarded as implausible.

      You keep saying you are going back to your sandbox but you keep lurking here.

      No one ever said the Kim’s did not share some culpability in their predicament. Even Kati’s dad, in an admirable display of candor, said as much, “I do not disagree with the last line of post 867, but much of what Mr. Wilson has written is simply fiction.”

      There are other numerous other factors that contributed to their dilemma, however, and the focus for most of us has been to examine and address those that can be remedied. We can’t undo their decision making on that fateful night, but we can lobby to improve signage, change maps, and improve on SAR processes and procedures.

      “Simply fiction” indeed, he said it far better than I.
1008. For the record, we are not “alleging” that they stopped at a winery. For one thing, there’s nothing illegal or immoral about stopping at a winery. The worst that could be said about it in this situation is that, if they did make such a stop, it would have been a time waster.

      They did something between leaving the Wilsonville tourist center no later than 1:30 and arriving in Halsey just before 6 p.m. The winery stop is a hypothesis, nothing more. James Kim liked wine; there are a bunch of wineries in the area, and not a whole lot else that I know of.

      But for all we know, they stopped and visited another friend. Or they took a nap. It’s impossible to say for sure. If they had stopped at wineries and this were France, it would be in Mrs. Kim’s interest to say so. In this country, probably not.
1009. Chuckie, are you I or We?

      1003/you said:

      “They’re warned not to take the back roads, and then they waste several hours at wineries. By then they’re running quite late. This would explain why they took the wilderness route, which on the map appears to be a shortcut. It also might explain why, in the final couple of days before James Kim left for help, his wife was angry at him.”

      That’s not an allegation? We’re confused.

      Give it a rest. Nobody’s interested in your book.
1010. The winery hypothesis is only one element of my doubts. It appears to me that Kati Kim is concealing the truth.

      She could be wrong about, say, the 5 p.m. timing of their departure. That’s what she told investigators in January, and given the 5:45 time stamp on gas receipts and/or phone calls from Halsey we know they couldn’t have left Portland that late. To me, that’s no biggie.

      What matters more is that she denied stopping in Wilsonville, when in fact there appears to solid evidence that they made the stop. Not only that they stopped, but that they did so early in the afternoon. Therefore, I believe that Kati Kim has tried to conceal the Wilsonville stop and their activities between then and the refueling in Halsey.

      I don’t think someone would go to the effort to hide, say, a stop an outlet mall. But wineries? I could imagine why Mrs. Kim wouldn’t want that known. And the Wilsonville stuff is quite damaging to her, because the employee specifically remembers telling them not to use the back roads.

      So, you can see that the hypothesis of a winery detour is just part of our doubt. We don’t believe that Kati Kim has been entirely forthcoming with investigative authorities. We think the full story has yet to be told.
1011. The Wilsonville clue did not contribute much to the search. It suggests that Kims were interested in a scenic route like Bear Camp, but also that they were warned not to take it. But maps and online guides gave the same mix of clues – there is a ‘direct’ route to the coast, but it has winter warnings. The road signs themselves have that mix – distance to Gold Beach and warnings about snow drifts.

      Even if true, it does not contribute much to an understanding of the Kims’ choices. At midnight, a scenic route is not scenic. At best it becomes tedious, at worse dangerous.

      Based on Kati’s account in the OSSA report, I would argue that their choice to take Bear Camp was unwise, but not fatal. Once they encountered snow on FS23 they could have turned back. What got them stranded was the choice of the west bound leg of BLM 34-8-36. Stops and choices made earlier in the day brought them to this spot, but did not dictate their final choices.

      Perhaps a better clue as to why they stuck with the Bear Camp route is Kati’s experience with the direct Eugene to Florence route. One or both of them decided that the black line between Grants Pass and Gold Beach looked just like the red one further north, crossing similar hills. The only pass I see on OR126 is Cougar Pass at 769 ft.

      paulj
1012. The Wilsonville information had nothing to do with the search. It is one of several pieces of information that we used to determine that the Kims were negligent. Kati Kim’s apparent concealment of their stop there, and of what they did afterward, tells me that she’s likely holding back a different story that has been told thus far.
1013. (1000) Tara, nice post, thanks for the info and it is nice to see John R. back at it!!!
1014. [463] – JoeDuck…Merlin Gas. I’ll be passing there next week and will try to drop in and ask a few questions

      Joe, wondering if you did get to stop by the Merlin gas station? That piece of the puzzle is perplexing. Why wasn’t that gas station checked out in the initial investigations? Seems a fairly obvious target since it is on one of the probable routes the Kims could have taken. Could have sure narrowed the search area down significantly early in the going. Also, did the Kims top up their gas tank there? There was no mention of that in the OSSA report. With a tank full of gas starting at Merlin I’d think the outcome their predicament may have been happier. Perhaps they might have just driven themselves out to civilization after the roads became more driveable on the Sunday or Monday. I’d think James would have thought twice about burning all the car tires had they not emptied their gas tank by Thursday. And he may not have felt compelled to set out on his desperate hike on Saturday had they gas enough to allow for running the car’s heater periodically to provide a little warmth now and then. I can try to imagine a bit how hopeless it must have seemed to him after all 5 tires had been burned, the car sitting there helpless on the ground, out of gas, stripped of its tires, everyone shivering cold & hungry, babies crying, lost now for a week and no sign of rescue evident.

      One other loose end… not that it matters much at this point, I haven’t seen any follow up of earlier reports stating they got stuck in the snow on some back road and used up a lot of their gas reserves getting ‘unstuck’. Wondering why that piece of the timeline is missing… an oversight?
1015. Kip – I suspect the answers to your questions are found in the OSSA report. If my memory is correct, the evidence for the Merlin stop is Kati’s account. After she made her second statement, I think someone tried to find someone in Merlin who remembered them, but without success.

      I also suspect that if they had made a gas purchase with a credit card, it would have turned up. If you check the Portland detective’s notes, you will see they put a lot of work into tracking down charges, even $2 ones for parking that were posted after the disappearance. Of course there would not be such a record for a cash purchase. If no one recalls giving directions, then probably no one remembers selling gas to someone asking for those directions.

      Using up gas to get unstuck comes from Kati’s first statement. If that is absent from the second statement, then only she can address the differences.

      Another potential difference between the statements. My recollection is that in the first she said they were snowed in when they woke Sunday morning. In the second, that occurred Sunday night or Monday morning. If the second is true they could have driven back on BLM34-8-36 to a more visible spot, such as the Rogue River overlook. They might not have been able to get all the way back to the FS 23 junction. Instead they thought it best to stay put, and wait for someone to come by, such as ranger checking on the nearby gate.

      In hindsight, topping off in Merlin would have been a good idea, possibly giving them enough gas to stay warm and to drive out when the snow melted. Having warm sleeping bags would have been just as effective. But they couldn’t have predicted when the snow would melt away. And they didn’t realize that they were parked in a little visited corner of the forest.

      paulj
1016. a big thank you to the folks here @JoeDuck for having the vision and dedication to do something positive for the folks who will need help in the future. i have followed this blog/kim story from the beginning and have felt inspired, helpless, angry, hopeful, educated, dumbfounded, and inspired again. to those that continue to contribute their skills, time, money, ideas for positive change and development of future SARs, i tip my hat/glass to you all!
1017. Kip, you could always ask the Klamath Sheriff who ran the investigation about gas in Merlin or investigating that gas station. I don’t believe that they got gas at Merlin station, however no report said they didn’t. I noticed the part about getting stuck and using more gas wasn’t in the OSSA report, but I’m not sure it matters. I’ve also seen in earlier articles that being low on gas was a factor early on. I think deciding not to try to drive back out on Sunday when it was just raining in their location was an unfortunate decision. But maybe running the engine for the heater takes more gas than I think.
1018. cd – thanks for the kudos. I think a lot of us went through that emotional roller coaster and my best hunch says that some long term good will come from this complicated story.

      kip – I’ll be passing Merlin Saturday and back through Monday.
1019. oops – I see that the talk about checking with a gas station attendant in Merlin was discussed earlier on this page (e.g. 463), not in the OSSA report.

      paulj
1020. Madeleine,if you’re still reading: you had asked what we thought of the objectivity of the OSSA Report now that it has been released. I would like to read it all over again, but my impression the first time was that apart from what would be considered appropriate commendations – it seemed mostly very objective and focused on what investigators found to be the most significant or problem areas.

      The thoroughness and objectivity level appeared to vary a little with each interviewer/investigator, but for the most part it seemed that the most relevant information was provided.

      If you would like or think it would be beneficial to share at all, I would be curious about your thoughts since you have indicated that you have some professional experience in these areas. 😀
1021. I questioned the objectivity of it based on the first part of it and the defensive tone it took. Other parts seemed objective.
1022. dkf747 – I feel just the opposite – I feel part II was very objective.

      But I found part three was fairly unobjective and interviews seemed to be trying to find facts to minimize the basis for complaints & mess-ups. I also feel the conclusions drawn in part II do not mesh with the interviews in part III. Sara herself said there were parts left out of her interview, therefore this fact along with the fact that I do no think part II & III mesh, I think there were important things left out. I think they really wanted to issue a report, though not glowing in review, but was much less substantial in it’s criticism but the negative facts were overwhelming there and they just couldn’t issue a report minimizing these facts and still hold credibility. To me, part II is actually the most important part.

      One paragraph just jumped out at me: pg. 24 of part II, second paragraph: especially the first statement.
      “There are resources available around the state that are trained and equipped for almost any type of environment. Reaching out to these resources would help insure the safety of persons involved and prevent the necessity to suspend or slow down search efforts to rescue the rescuers.”

      I do think when you have a peer group doing a review, they usually do try to minimize the faults of the object of the review, so I actually didn’t find this part surprising. And quite honestly, I felt like part II was more critical than I expected. I didn’t feel it was trying to sell me a bill of goods like I felt part III was. I think it pointed out clearly problems and items which need to be corrected.

      Vest which can be seen, yes, are important, and improvements needed to start some where and every little improvement is an important step in the right direction, but I don’t think, woo, we got new vest is basis enough for indicating look how seriously we are taking the report. There is a new sheriff in town. He has the advantage of having this official report with formally spells out the areas which need improving. He may have already been aware of these areas himself, but he has it officially written down. Which I hope will make his job of improving these areas better, whereas otherwise without this official report, even if he was aware of the areas which needed improving, I think he would’ve had a very difficult time.

      I also found the report more or less squelched the ‘oh we are a poor county with limited resources’ excuse as there was so much available out there that was waiting to be utilized and wasn’t.

      It seems to me there should be a master list from the state with at least these facts on it:

      1. Resource available & what it does
      2. Generally spelling out what conditions meets the requirements for the resource to be called in
      3. The procedures and contact information of calling in said resource
1023. 1022- Yes, Frances, I have to read it over again to really compare and contrast it at this point. But it was interesting how it did seem to reflect some unified and other different perspectives from each detective/investigator/writer, based upon what questions were asked and what information was included.

      1021- dkf747

      I was wondering, what questions were you hoping would be answered, that you felt were not? 😀
1024. Hi, Lisa, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I do work for a law-enforcement/criminal justice agency and have seen lots of review/after action-type reports, written and participated in writing of them as well.

      I have only been able to speed-read through the report here, not do a thorough perusal, but I thought it was fairly objective and discrepancies duly noted where applicable. There were some apparent omissions, according to Sara’s account of what she provided them. That is unfortunate, though I don’t recall without rereading the posts which part of the SAR effort was left out. I do not think it’s indicative of anything lacking in this report that caused the request for yet another review, it’s how state politics work in a highly visible case.

      My agency has occasion to look for persons in mountainous areas, but these are not SAR ops, per se. Some of the same principles apply, and we do hear from locals at times who have valuable info to share since they are the first to know if something is amiss. We are in no way involved in the same treacherous terrain experienced in OR.

      We do often receive tips from locals, etc., which I consider of major importance, since they know when something is amiss that others might not notice. Our geographic jurisdiction problems are complicated at times, crossing from one agency to another, so again, I could relate to some of the problems at hand in the Kim situation. But our own people are primarily responsible for finding our missing folks.

      I used to work gangs and later fugitives with task forces made up of federal/state/county/local LE agencies, so you can imagine the cross-jurisdictional communication/procedural problems we encountered. I know that the best laid plans can be very difficult and trying for those trying to do the job at the scene, and some of the public misconceptions are frustrating. People such as C.W. or Pac would grab onto some non-fact and shake it like a dog’s bone, missing the whole point of what had transpired.

      On the other hand, interagency operations can be excellent if everyone brings their area of expertise to the table and can collaborate withot having pieces missing or redundancy. My hat goes off to the SAR people; they are dealing with a largely volunteer system, and resources are limited, I’m sure. The people I worked closely with were all sworn, so there was a commonality between all of us that made things a bit more organized in some respects. Training and cross training between agencies is a huge part of successful interagency operations.

      I have no respect for those here who are parroting the sheer speculation regarding the movements of the Kims, their comments are nothing but an uninformed distraction and attempt at sensationalizing this story. Sometimes even the best intended witnesses get it wrong, in good faith.

      None of my opinions here are those of my agency, I am simpy interested in how this case was investigated, how the searches were conducted, and most of all, how the principals managed to endure as much as they did. My heart goes out to everyone involved in this situation, and I am grateful that so many have made it a mission to gnerate something positive from what was a tragic event. The people on Joe’s site have been great to talk to, I’ve learned a lot, especially about how people perceive what they hear, see and read.

      One unrelated, off-topic thing I’m curious about is whether the case of the two missing girls (later found dead) from Oregon City was followed by a review of that investigation? I know the case gained national prominence, but never knew if it resulted in further examination of the investigation or search.
1025. 1024 – Sorry, that post didn’t get edited as intended, sorry for the repetition in it.
1026. In this case, the primary example of utilizing a trained outside resource was the replacement of local SAR volunteers with the Eugene Mtn Rescue Monday evening. I don’t recall if anyone thought they could have used another team like that. SWAT member(s) from another county also participated.

      Did they need some specialized team earlier in the search? The newspaper articles made a big deal about Josephine Co not using the OANG after Curry was done. I don’t recall much discussion in the OSSA report about this issue. OANG did help with the Windy Ck phase, though I don’t think they found much.

      But, some critics think they should have just used the initiative of locals, you know, the true heroes who knew exactly where to look. They also think passionate volunteers should have been allowed to play a game of leapfrog down Windy Creek. Those trained resources from across the state would take too long to arrive, spend too much time familiarizing themselves with the local terrain, and in the end, spend all their time looking for scuff marks.

      paulj
1027. Paulj: I know I was leaving but you seem to not be reading the report:

      And I quote:

      “ANDERSON said an error he made was the assumption to rely on another citizen who said they went up there and nobody was up there. ANDERSON said that this point also came up at the debrief. Next time there would be no assumption, he said. Next time, they would not clear an area until one of their searchers had gone in and cleared it themselves.”

      Seems to me that Anderson presumes that it was important to clear that road. Issue is who did it. They were sloppy in not either clearing it themselves or communicating better with the “citizen” that supposedly said it had been cleared. It was a critical road, based on past experiences and possible track marks. Nobody from JoCo seems to dispute that it was important that it be cleared. The dispute seems to be whether or not it was cleared.
1028. I am quite aware that there was confusion as to when/whether BLM 34-8-36 west was cleared. Give past SAR missions, I think they were right to clear FS23 first. The tire track clue certainly should have raised the priority on 36, so that, for example, it was cleared with snow cat on Saturday.

      I’m not sure past experiences by themselves dictated a high priority for that road. No one has cited past SAR missions down that road. While some locals thought it was a problem area, the deputy who was under contract to work with the BLM did not seem to think that area was a priority. That suggests that if there were problems in the past, they were handled informally by locals, without significant involvement of SAR.

      However, by Monday clearing that area by SAR people was well underway. Ground searchers were in the area when helicopters found the car, and shortly after they found James’s tracks.

      The way I would summarize the search in Josephine Co is:
      Friday – informal search, particularly along FS23 where a couple of deaths have occurred (e.g. Finley)
      Saturday – chasing various false leads
      Sunday – focus on Josephine Co due to the Cell maps; clearing roads to the north (where Stivers were found), and to the east of FS 23
      Monday – clearing to the north of FS23; finding the car; start of search for James in Windy Ck.
      Tues-Wed – continue work down Windy Ck.

      paulj
1029. [1027] — Think about it… private citizen John James takes the initiative in the search for the Kims, he and his brother at their expense haul their snowmobiles all the way out to the FS-23 / 34-8-36 junction, then travel a mile up 34-8-36 on their machines following one way car tire tracks they discovered before being forced to turnaround because of a lack of snow. Would John and his brother then lie about discovering the tire tracks and lie about how far they had traveled up the road? Are they going to say to SAR: yeah, we searched the road, all 25~ miles of it and nobody was there? Of course not! It can not be dismissed as a communication error either because 4 people were present.
1030. Kip, all I can say is that there were a great number of us here who heard news bulletin differently, and we had to go back and play the video. It happens, and moreso under duress, when adrenaline is running. People filter what they hear and/or recall, sometimes on purpose, sometimes because that’s just the version they recall. If you are knee deep in alligators, sometimes you don’t hear things or express them as intended.

      I’m curious what would lead you to think that SAR was 1) too lazy to check the road; or 2) didn’t think the info was good and refused to consider it. 3) another scenario?
1031. [1030] — Madeleine, for one thing they didn’t check the 34-8-36 Bear Camp Road until Monday!

      OSSA – page 22/47 — Stanton “stated that they had their reasons for why Bear Camp Road was not checked until Monday”
1032. [1031] – – Doesn’t anybody want to know why SAR waited until Monday before searching 34-8-36?

      so sad…
1033. I don’t see the need for another review or report. I think the baisic issues were uncovered, pointed out and indication for correction. Not just with JoCo & locally, the govenor is going to look at the entire system. There’s really not much more than that, at present. Time will tell if necessary improvements/corrections are made.
      What issues were uncovered, futher reviews aren’t going to necssarily uncover more. The more time passes from an incident, the more facts become obsure.
      This is not for CWilson, but for those thinking Wilson’s points and his ‘interviews with witnesses’ have any validity
      Some years back, before DNA was common to be used, there was a rape case here in WV. Woodall, I think was the name. There wasn’t much to connect him to the case other than the victims certainity he was her attacker and that’s basically what sent him to prison – her certainity. He was in jail for several years and he got a lawyer to test the DNA. It proved he was not the attacker, he was released, he sued the state, got a bunch of money and the last I heard to this day the woman still claims he was the attacker and the DNA was wrong. Sometimes people stick to a wrong belief because it’s too embarrassing for them to admit the truth, sometimes they really believe it’s the truth, and for various other reasons.
1034. Yes, Kip, I remember that now that you bring it up. Yet I don’t recall it ever being stated in the report what their reasons were for waiting until Monday. This is an excellent description of what I mean by facts missing or incomplete in the report. Part III really appears to me as if it were pick & choose what to actually include in this report.
1035. [1030] – – JoCo SAR had their reasons for waiting until Monday before checking 34-8-36. The public is entitled to know what were those reasons.

      Does anybody know? does anyone care?
1036. [1034] – – Frances… “really appears to me as if it were pick & choose what to actually include in this report”

      These Offals may not know how to conduct a successful search operation but they sure know how to whitewash.

      It was too bad for James Kim they couldn’t find reason to check 34-8-36 before Monday. Wasn’t tire track evidence that a car had recently traveled north on that dead end road enough reason?
1037. Instead of worrying about the “tone” of the OSSA report, worry about the content. What is this, a contest for Homecoming Queen?
1038. I would not read too much into that ‘they had their reasons’ statement. I can think of a number of stated reasons why they had lowered the priority on that road. I don’t think they are hiding other reasons.

      – Earlier in the interview Stanton says that he had been up there a few days earlier and had seen some snow on both roads. With further snow since then he had mentally lowered the probability that Kims had gone down the BLM road.
      – He and Rubrecht had only seen the snowmobile tracks, not the car ones.
      – Hearing that John James had been down the road may have also dropped its priority in their minds.
      – Stanton was not under the illusion that James had explored every mile; but it apparently did not register that James had gone only a few miles.
      – other leads pointed to Kims returning east, or having made it to the coast by some other route.

      For one reason or other the two salient items in James mind (the one way tire tracks, and he had only gone a few miles) did not register with Stanton and Rubrecht. While unfortunate, I do not think we need to invoke some conspiracy or whitewash theory to explain the differences in the accounts of the Friday afternoon meeting.

      One party intends to convey one thing, the other party hears another; that happens all the time. It even happens it writing. I am trying to convey one set of ideas; but I’m sure you are picking up a different set.

      Stanton himself realizes that in the future, he needs to take notes on conversations like this, so important details don’t fall through the cracks.

      paulj
1039. 1036 – Kip
      Agreed
1040. 2 people are outright lying… either the James or the SARs. Take your pick.

      The James brothers had every reason to convey to the SAR 2 exactly what they did and what they discovered and what they felt still needed to be done on 34-8-36.

      Three days later when John Rachor found the Kim girls on 34-8-36 on Monday, the 2 SARs then had every reason to want to smear the testimony of the 2 James in a desperate ploy to cover up their own negligence in not checking that road as John James had urged them to do.
1041. Madeliene 1024 Oregon City 2 Teenage girls murdered. OT.

      Yes, there were ‘reviews’ by the agencies themselves, the FBI eventually issuing a press release and the state CPS people finding very little wrong with their procedures but already having fired some people.

      This was a case wherein the fbi was looking at the internet and modeling schools and Portland, mecca for runaways but neighborhood teenage girls were all saying ‘the creep who stares at our breasts as we wait for the school bus’.
1042. Kip 1040 Outright Lying,,,

      I don’t know about ‘outright lying’ I do think some degree of ‘spin’ may well be involved and selective recollection.
      It is understandable that no one wants to say “Somebody pointed out what they thought was a diamond while I was out in the cold and wet, but I processed tons and tons of ore and only then later found that it was indeed a diamond.” It is not particularly admirable, but it is indeed understandable.
1043. Toy Aircraft 1005?

      The BLM has experimented with video surveillance of rangeland by having $2,000.00 radio conrolled model airplanes fly pre-programmed routes over rangeland.
      The flight time is not so great but it seems the video images are just fine. Now BLM people who monitor rangelands and BLM people who model dense forests have different situations, but it might be important that flying over a road in a densely forrested area and being concerned with the road and its edges is not all that demanding a task.
      I surely think that pre-programmed gps coordinates taking a model airplane over a logging road would be easier than a ground search which can be halted by unknown conditions of snow beginning or ending at various unpredictable points. A snowmobile can’t travel over bare earth and there comes a point where 4wheel drive chain equipped vehicles can’t deal with deed snow and ice. A model airplane flying even abbreviated thirty minute missions can cover alot of roadway with its video camera even if its not exactly a real time video image. The BLM also has experimented with forty thousand dollar military drones but I think if I suggested a forty thousand dollar purchase to JoSeCar and RogueRiverRat they would each have a very hearty laugh at the mere thought that their county could afford such an expenditure. However, a trip to the Second Tuesday meetings at the Lions Center in Medfort Oregon to talk with the Rogue Eagles Radio Controlled Model Airplane Club might be within the county’s budget. A thirty minute video tape of a swath through the woods that covers a road and its edges would be a help since any team that is sent out to do a more thorough search would atleast have some idea of what they will encounter as to snow, ice, mud, gravel, etc. And the SAR command would know what sort of equipment might have to be allocated to a more thorough search of a road.
      Admittedly, the two thousand dollar model airplanes did not give the BLM as much as the forty thousand dollar drones that the BLM also tried, but I think a good many of the lesser spur roads could have been covered in a fairly short time period if there were low level surveillance aircraft such as models with cameras or the ‘low and slow’ ultralights that are used for providing a stable camera platform for nature films. Flying along at 50 mph in a Nature Film platform would be easier than trudging through deep snow or trying to use a snowmobile on bare ground.
1044. Ultralight Aircraft,,,

      Yes. I think that a ‘low and slow’ ultralight could also be used to “clear roads” in forrested areas. Even a two place ultralight doesn’t require much in the way of ‘support’ and although helicopter pilots think helicopters are needed for searches in densely forrested areas, I think that any of the various ‘low and slow’ fixed wing aircraft can at the very least be used to “clear roads” that are remote and rugged far faster than ground teams could ever hope to do it.
1045. Some perceptions of the report:

      There is the usualy ‘cya’ attitude showing through soemtimes. It seems strange to read of ‘official versus unofficial search’. Someone commented to not knowing who was in charge and I think a fair number of people may have wondered about that issue. I don’t know why formal statements and updates were not answering such questions.
      There was one comment wherein there was a mention that one man did not know date of ‘having gone missing’ and ‘date of being reported missing’. It seems he was more curious than in need of the information but it does show things were a bit unorganized. He should be able to find that out very rapidly and easily even if his interest in it is purely whimsical.
1046. Under-dressed volunteer/Under-dressed Officers??

      I’ve made a few upthread posts about the volunteer with more heart than common sense who showed up for the search with insufficiently warm attire.

      I wonder if some of the official search personnel actually fall into a similar category?

      Now we’ve had a few posts about a snowmobile coming to a stop when the snow turns to bare ground. I don’t know much about snowmobiles but that sure sounds like a reasonable event.

      Several search parties seem to have been stopped abruptly by circumstances: The Curry County Bear Camp Road searchers were stopped by deep snow. A few other search teams seemed to have been stopped by such things as too little snow or too much snow or ice or whatever.

      Should we consider that a “primary” road should be searched by an adequately dressed volunteer? In other words, should a primary road be searched by a well-equipped and multi-modal transport team? Bear Camp Road was described as a ‘primary back country route’ and while those terms may seem difficult at times we really do know what is meant. Early on in the search both Jackson County and Curry County were talking of and thinking of Bear Camp Road although a few of the people involved may have meant different things by those terms at different times. The searchers probably are familiar with concepts such as ‘snow line’ and had a rough idea of what local storms normally do in the area. I wonder if such a high priority “main route” search team should have been sent out without equipment and personnel to “keep going”. When the four wheel drive Jeep with chains just can’t make it anymore, they switch to the radio-equipped snowmobile. This would avoid the ‘return to base’ and ‘make a report’ which then has to be “information triaged” for later assignments to other search teams. One team goes down the entire route to be searched rather than as far as conditions allow and then later reporting in and describing how far they think they made it.
1047. “Information Triage”

      We all know there is confusion and distractions during anything like this. Several places use the word “drill” to indicate a real situation and the word “exercise” to indicate a practice situation. Crowds and bedridden hospital patients don’t react well to messages that say ‘fire’ but may react a bit better to messages that say ‘fire drill’ or ‘code red’ etc.

      In the 1943 Circus Tent fire in Hartford, CN, a band member saw a wisp of smoke and started playing The Stars and Stripes Forever, in a few measures the entire band was giving a loud and stirring rendition of this famous piece but the real message was well known to all circus personnel: “All Animals to Safety, All Personnel to Designated Disaster Assembly Point”. Even though the show had just started, the personnel all knew what to do. The audience did not realize what was happening because the baton twirler kept twirling as she headed to the safety point, the trapeze artists descended rapidly, but ‘in style’. It was a previously agreed upon way of getting the important information to all personnel without creating panic in the audience.

      Nowadays, its not the ‘crowd panic’ that is of great concern but simply the ‘needle and haystack’ stuff of narrowing down a search area and evaluating how significant a phone tip may be or determinging if the tip line number should be given out despite crews still setting up a bank of phones.

      A good deal of information triage is aided by consistency of terminology such as use of words ‘searched’ or ‘cleared’. Its also aided by consistency of forms and reporting formats.
1048. 😀 Attention 😀

      I just got a note from JoCoSAR that a post did not appear from her – are others having this problem?

      If yes try again please and if still not working email me: jhunkins@gmail.com
1049. I get the impression from these reports that a ‘snow cat’ is the main ‘go anywhere’ search vehicle these counties have, capable of handling both snow and bare pavement. I assume this is a tracked vehicle similar to ones used a ski resorts. Seems that Josephine Co has one, and Jackson two, and Curry none.

      I suspect, though that deployment of one of these is time consuming. It probably is taken by trailer to the search area. What is the top speed? 10, 20 mph?

      Where they can be used, snowmobiles and 4x4s are a lot faster, and more abundant, so the search can cover a lot more territory, especially when there are plenty of volunteers.

      Especially this early winter there is not a well defined ‘snowline’. Stanton had been up Bear Camp on Thanksgiving checking on snow levels. Kims encountered snow at the 3500′ level, but stopped at 2000′ below the snow. By Friday John James started on snow at 3500, but ran out of it in a couple of miles. Further down there was enough snow to show bear tracks. A few days later, CNN was able to drive the whole 20 miles, though it was still icy in parts. You can see for yourself the snow levels in January in the photobucket pictures (see Joe’s link).

      So I am not surprised at the mixed use of vehicles. There is the continual tension between doing the search rapidly and doing it carefully.

      paulj
1050. There is the continual tension between doing the search rapidly and doing it carefully

      I think this is an excellent and important point, and for me it helps explain a lot of the decision making. Even with unlimited resources you can’t focus on everything equally.

      My take on the 34-8-36 road search issue is that the timing of several communications about the road was unfortunate but not negligent. Before it was even known that Bear Camp was the *probable* location, before Bear Camp itself had been cleared, and with several tips about sightings on the coast and over the top of Bear Camp, (and I think even with Carson Choppers starting to search the spur roads), Randy and Sara were taking a quick reconaissance run up to Bear Camp to scope things out. They met the James’ brothers who had searched some but not all of 34-8-36. It’s not clear exactly all of what was said but I’m guessing that from Randy and Sara’s perspective a *thorough* search of 34-8-36, which I think was ordered anyway, was a lower priority than some of the claimed family sightings.

      In the information overload down at command center I’m guessing that the two partial searches of 34-8-36 (first by the James and second by the truck folks), were seen as making that route less likely than other unsearched areas PLUS it appears to me there was misunderstanding between John James and SAR about the importance of following that road all the way to the end. These were understandable mistakes, not negligent ones.
1051. Kip (#1040), you left out someone else who could be “outright lying.”
1052. Well, regretable mistakes and the question might be what sort of procedures would have helped: a pre-printed form with ‘searched to milepost xxx’ or ‘searched to the end’ or ‘searched partway’.

      As ‘snow cats’ or ‘progress in general’, I guess there is indeed a continual tension between the ‘quick and dirty’ versus the ‘slow and methodical’. I am sure that in a rural area there are zillions of pickup trucks and darn few low-slung sports cars. Sending a pickup truck might well mean getting the job done; sending the one and only snowcat certainly deprives each and every other mission of a snowcat. Perhaps we all are realizing what sort of ‘bake sales’ may soon be taking place in the county. I certainly would think a pickup truck with a snowmobile in the back of it might be a good match. Lots of pickups around and a good number of snowmobiles too.

      I think the main advantage of fixed wing craft is that as long as there is no low lying fog blanketing the entire area a two-man ultralight will cover far more roads than any pickup truck, snomobile or snowcat combination could. Yet these fixed wing assets were not only not utilized, they were not contemplated and it seems that some personnel involved would not really have known what they are.
1053. Re: end-to-end search of 34-8-36, see JoCoSAR’s comment 560 on this page. RRR also mentions it in her comment 392, in which she notes that the mixed nature of the road surface made it a snowcat task. Somewhere I recall reading that the snowcat called in as “really close” at about the same time that Carson was making pickup on Kati and the kids. Not sure where I read that.

      I also recall Anderson reported that he had trusted a citizen’s unverified report that the road had been cleared; he was not referring to Mr. James. That’s in the report, and he calls it a “lesson learned” not to consider a road cleared unless it’s been cleared by some kind of bona fide SAR resource and a report’s filed.

      There’s a certain amount of internal conflict among these three accounts. JoCoSAR and RRR pretty much agree, if Anderson had really considered the road cleared then I presume no further search would have been done. So I think Joe’s interpretation, above, is probably as close as we can come to “the truth.”
1054. Taking a snowmobile trailer with you when clearing a set of these roads gives you the chance of proceeding further when you encounter snow, but it is not without some costs. Most notably, it greatly increases your turning radius. If you encounter snow half way up one of these narrow, shelf roads (e.g. FS 23), you have to backup to a wider spot to turn around. With a trailer you might have to back all the way to some junction.

      paulj
1055. Another aspect of clearing an area is communication between ground and air searchers. There apparently was some confusion among chopper pilots as to whether ground crews had clear specific roads. One of the neighboring counties had a procedure in which a ground crew would place a line (paint or tape?) on a road when they headed down it, and completed the cross when they returned back. So big X at the start of a spur told air searchers that ground crews had cleared this road. I believe Josephine Co was going to add this procedure to practice.

      paulj
1056. Joe, your [1050] comment “a *thorough* search of 34-8-36, which I think was ordered anyway” seems to me to be inconsistent with Stanton’s OSSA “they had their reasons for why Bear Camp Road was not checked until Monday”. Do you think the search was ordered (Friday?) but not started until Monday?
1057. The whole thing has to be separated into four categories:

      1. What we know

      2. What we probably know based on logic emanating from #1

      3. Reasonable speculation based on #1 and #2

      4. Wild-ass guesses

      I tend to want to stay away from very much of #4, at least in writing. In the narrative, I tried really hard to stick to #1 and #2, and limit any #3 to the reasonable.

      My guess about how it went down is as follows:

      On Nov. 25th, they got up pretty early in Portland and had brunch with their friend at 10 a.m. or so. I say that because the OSSA report mentions brunch at 10 a.m. in the timeline, and “morning” on page 6 of the timeline. This makes sense to me because, in my experience, kids don’t sleep in. They’re usually up bright and early, especially that four-year-old.

      I figure that brunch lasted an hour or an hour and a half. Scott Nelson Windels posted on the Joe Duck board that they had brunch until 2 p.m., but I don’t think that’s likely. I’ve had one four-hour brunch in my life, and that was with the widow and adult daughter of a friend who had died. It was a grieving and remembrance session, something that I’ll always have sweet memories of doing. But little kids, especially the four-year-old, aren’t going to sit still for a four-hour brunch. No way, no how. If there’s a hero here, it would be whoever sat through a four-hour brunch with a four-year-old kid.

      So I’m thinking that brunch ended at 11:30, and that they stopped at Wilsonville shortly after noon. This would match the recollection of the employee who gave them the highway map and coastal brochure. It would also match the discussion of “scenic routes,” because it would have been light out and a discussion of scenic routes would have made sense.

      Those roadside information centers are typically stocked with dozens and dozens of brochures, so I’m thinking that as James Kim talked with the one employee, Kati and the kids wandered around the racks and she got other flyers. One of them for the wineries in the North Wilamette Valley. James is on record being a wine lover, and Oregon is known for its pinot noir production in particular.

      They’re looking at the brochures either out in the car or maybe just before they leave the building, and James spots the winery brochure. He wants to go to a winery, but Kati, having spent four years in Oregon as a student, says “James, we really don’t have the time.” He wins that argument and they go. During this time, James uses a cellphone make a reservation at Tu Tu Tun.

      They spend more time at the wineries than either of them intended, but especially more time than Kati had intended. By the time they get back on I-5 heading south, it’s dusk. It is dark out when they gas up in Halsey at 6 p.m. They haven’t even made it as far as Corvalis, for heaven’s sake. They’re a long way from Gold Beach. A good six hours or more. Kati’s not too happy about that, and she calls the lodge to tell them to leave a key out because they’re going to be late.

      James says not to worry, did you see that road from Grant’s Pass? It goes straight there. They decide to take it. Neither of them looks very hard at the map. All they see is the black line. James Kim isn’t worrying about the caution from the employee against using the back roads. He figures it’s one of those obligatory warnings that doesn’t really have to be followed. Kati agrees; I’ve been on the back roads from Eugene to Florence, she says. This will be no different.

      So they get down there, and pretty quickly Kati sees that this ain’t exactly the Eugene-Florence route. Damn it, James, we can’t do this, she eventually says. Let’s just stop for the night. The hell we will, he says. We’ve prepaid $250 for the room. Not only that, but we’ve got to drive to Mendocino tomorrow and that one’s a real pain in the ass down 101 and Hwy. 1.

      As they pass the fourth sign past the logging road intersection James says, you’re right this is bad I better turn around. Kati says nothing doing, if you turn around we could go over the edge. So he backs down the road and then they’re back at the intersection. It’s snowing like hell and they’re both feeling kind of panicky.

      Now she steps in. Fine mess you’ve gotten us into, she says. Look, that other other road goes lower. We can at least get out of the snow, and maybe we can find our way to Gold Beach. He takes the road, figuring they can get to the coast. In fact, they barely even get through all the snowdrifts. After another 20 miles they’re hopelessly lost. They’re exhausted, too, so they decided to call it a night and get some sleep.

      They get up the next day in the rain. I saw a plow on our way up here, she says. They get out of the car and they think they hear a plow in the distance (later, they realize it was rushing water). If it’s raining down here it’s snowing like hell up there, so we’d better wait until the plows get down here and they lead us out.

      That never happens, and by the time they’ve spent a few more days, she’s giving him crap about stopping at the wineries and taking the back roads in the first place. James Kim is feeling like a chump. Everyone is hungry and rattled and getting really scared. The kids are crying, the wife is yelling. So he goes off in search of help, and winds up dying.

      When they’re rescued and the cops are asking her about everything, Kati Kim omits the Wilsonville stop and the winery stuff because of how it will look. After all, they were warned against the back roads. Being so late because of going to wineries is going to make people think they’re a pair of drunken yuppies. So she tells the cops that they left Portland late and that they missed Hwy. 42 and sort of blundered into all of this.

      Which is half true. They did blunder into it, and they were late. But it’s not the whole story. That’s what my gut tells me happened. Nothing felonious or immoral. Just dumb and negligent. It happens. The kicker is that there were kids in the car with them, and that makes it less excusable. Which is why, in my book, Kati Kim likely doesn’t want to talk about the whole story.

      I need to be clear that with the wineries and the deception, I’m guessing. There could be other explanations as to why they left Portland late. Scott Nelson Windels says it was because they didn’t end brunch until 2 p.m. and then they went to boutiques. Someone else at Joe Duck’s board says the Wilsonville sighting was of a different couple consisting of a white woman, an Asian man and two young children, and that the employee who identified them as the Kims did so because “all Asians look alike.”

      To me, that’s a stretch. I think they stopped in Wilsonville, but the timeline might be later than I think and/or what they did after that might not have been wineries but something else, like stopping to see a different friend or to do some shopping at an outlet mall along the highway. But why conceal all of that? That’s one of the reasons I’m thinking wineries, but in the final analysis it’s impossible to know. Kati Kim knows, and I suspect some of her friends know. But I’m not sure anyone else will ever know.

      Why haven’t the cops pursued all of this? A bunch of reasons. First, no crime was committed. Second, you’ve got an attractive young woman, recently widowed, the subject of a torrent of sympathetic media coverage. If the police pursued the contradictions, it might look “cruel.” So, from their point of view, better to let sleeping dogs lie.
1058. What should they have done? What was their biggest error?

      I’d say where the die really got cast was in Halsey, when they reconfirmed that hotel reservation in Gold Beach. They should have called, all right. They should’ve called to cancel. Then they should have taken I-5 to Grant’s Pass, and U.S. 199 down to Crescent City, CA. They’d have been in Crescent City by midnight — late, but with a head start on the next day’s drive to Mendocino.

      Why didn’t they cancel? Two possibilities. One might be that they both really wanted to see the Oregon coast in the morning. More likely is that TuTuTun, like a lot of luxury resorts, has a 48-hour cancellation policy and therefore they’d have had to eat the room charge.
1059. Do you think the search was ordered (Friday?) but not started until Monday?

      Kip I’m under the impression that the search plans began in earnest on Saturday morning and that a truck was dispatched (Sat or Sunday?) to search 34-8-36. That truck could not complete the search to the end of the road. I think that “search not complete” detail did not get high priority within the huge swirl of tips, people, and information coming in.

      Was this 34-8-36 priority oversight a mistake? Sure, but as Tommo pointed out some time back you’ll *never* have an event where all information flows perfectly. Should John James concerns have been given more weight? Yes. Was this negligent? No, John was focusing his concerns on 34-8-36 and the SAR effort had to consider all the spur roads.

      Lesson to learn? I think local wisdom should be given very high priority. HOWEVER, note that the local woman from Port Orford who *insisted* she *spoke with* the Kims at a Grocery Store was totally fabricating her story [or perhaps really talked to some other family], where John James and John Rachor were spot on with their analysis. How to prioritize local wisdom? I don’t know.
1060. A big, big mistake of the Kims… not getting gas when they stopped at the Merlin gas station. [I am assuming they did not… it hasn’t been reported otherwise]. Running out of gas was their biggest problem once they became stranded on 34-8-36 and they lost their sole source of warmth and ~cheer~, the car’s heater. It’s 158 miles from Halsey to Merlin. About a 2 1/2 hour trip. I’m guessing their gas gauge read just over 1/2 tank at Merlin, normally a sufficient amount for the a 2 hour drive to the coast.
1061. Need to clarify something (which another poster has been stating as something I said). I posted earlier pointing out that in this blog, jocosar had noted she thought the family left PDX at around 2pm on that Saturday. Post 375 on Page 3 of the comments. I do not have firsthand knowledge of when the family left PDX and have never stated that I did know the time they left, just that some evidence points to the fact they may have left later in the day.
1062. Mr. Windels has posted that he received an e-mail from a boutique that the Kims visited in Portland. When asked for the name of the boutique he declined to give it. I do not believe he ever got such an e-mail.

      As for the Port Orford witness, it does not compare with the people in Wilsonville. The State Police were cautioned that the Port Orford witness was unreliable. In Wilsonville, there were two witnesses. There were two interviews, one by the Oregon State Police and another by Det. Mike Weinstein of the Portland P.D., someone who has been an active participant on this board and whose other posts have been regarded as reliable.

      Additionally, the Wilsonville witnesses are backed by the executive director of the Chamber of Commerce, which runs the visitor center there. Therefore, it is unreasonable to equate the Wilsonville information to the Port Orford misinformation.
1063. Believe what you will, but please do not post incorrect information about statements made by me. I did not state that they left PDX at 2pm. I only pointed out that in this blog at JD’s site, someone involved in SAR mentions 2pm as a possible time they left PDX.
1064. Topping off.

      Its not a question of ‘sufficient gas for the journey’ but more of ‘topping off’ so as to be safe, particularly if they had any inkling off the remoteness of the area they were about to enter. Yes, they had enough. And if they had actually purchased gasoline the owner might have been more communicative. Its simply yet another indication that they were not in a proper mode of awareness. Would that ‘box’ on the map have changed their gas buying behavior? I don’t know. Would a local have topped off? I’m not sure.
1065. 1064/FG – Any local who had even the most remote sense of that road (Bear Camp) would surely have advised them to top off, or more likely, advised them to stay away from it altogether. I can only speculate that whoever helped them that evening either did not understand what they were asking, or was new to the area.
1066. Scott, I’ve never posted that you said the Kims left Portland at 2 p.m., because that’s not what you wrote. You wrote that they finished brunch at 2 p.m. and then went to at least one boutique. You claimed to have an e-mail from a boutique supporting your claim.

      You have produced neither the name of the boutique nor the e-mail. Therefore, I do not believe your claims.
1067. (1059) Joe not to mention that SAR received an eyewitness report seeing the family in another place. At that point on Friday (until the cell ping) they had no real evidence to even determine the Kim’s were in the area.

      Also after talking to SAR, John James and his brother started searching west on Bear Camp Rd, if they were so sure they were on 34-8-36 why would they search anywhere else?

      I think hindsight plays a big role here in how we all see the situation. At the time I think there is plenty of information that states the Kim’s could have been almost anywhere – until the cell phone pings and then the search go organized around that definitive evidence.
1068. 1066. Only half correct still. Reread post 949. I refer to someone else’s statement about when they ate brunch.

      Quoting from 949.
      “In your thorough research you must have missed comments from related parties earlier in this blog which mentioned they probably left brunch around 2pm.”
1069. (1068) Scott, we all know how accurate Chucky is! Appreciate you taking the time to point out his continued mistakes, mis-quotes and mis-information however if his hypothesis was anywhere near the truth he would have flocks of people jabbering with him on his site.

      They literally have no activity and it is a shame that for some reason he keeps coming back to rant. Joe is way more tolerant than I ever would be.
1070. The official reports go into great detail what the various SAR players did but there have been no hard questions asked why what should have been done wasn’t.

      eg. Why wasn’t the Merlin gas station staff questioned very early on? It seems an obvious place for a coast bound motorist to stop for gas before heading inland. Had it been established, early on, that the Kims had stopped there, the targeted search area would have been reduced enormously.

      eg. It seems *everybody* knew that 34-8-36 was notorious for inadvertently detouring motorists. Why were the SAR officials ignorant of this widely known fact?
1071. It’s interesting to me that Chucky refuses to accept that the Kims stopped at a boutique without further proof than Scott’s word, but has no problem conjecturing they stopped at wineries. It makes no difference what they did with their time. It is irrelevant.
1072. (1071) Gayle yea next Chuckie will be stating the kids were crying because they weren’t getting their ration of wine – it had nothing to do with lack of food!

      Aye yi yi, the trolls…
1073. 1071/Gayle: Hi Gayle ! 😛 Good to see you again.
1074. The Kims may well have stopped at a boutique, but almost certainly not in time frame that Scott Nelson Windels claimed, i.e., after having finished a brunch at 2 p.m. on Nov. 25. Moreover, Mr. Windels has claimed to have an e-mail from a boutique, but has steadfastly refused to provide it or to name the boutique. Therefore, I don’t believe him.

      As for our conjecture (good word, by the way: “a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork”) about wineries, we’ve been careful to label it as speculation, as opposed the Mr. Windels having claimed it to be true that the Kims spent the afternoon of Nov. 25 visiting at least one boutique in Portland.

      We’ve mentioned wineries for the following reasons:

      – There’s a 3-4 hour time gap in Mrs. Kim’s accounts when compared with the witnesses in Wilsonville.

      – James Kim liked wine, and there is a series of wineries located about 20 miles west of the area between Wilsonville and Corvalis.

      – The Wilsonville tourist center gives directions to those wineries, and stocks brochures that discuss them. (I would note that the director of the chamber of commerce did not recall anyone having discussed wineries with the Kims, which I have noted in prior postings on this subject.)

      – Mrs. Kim appears to have concealed the Wilsonville visit, and the time gap, in her statements to authorities.

      – If the Kims did spend a few hours at wineries, between that and being warned against back roads when they stopped in Wilsonville, this whole adventure might look quite different to the outside world than it has thus far. I could imagine Kati Kim not wanting people to know either bit of information.

      – If they had frittered away several hours in wineries before getting to Halsey in the dark, it could help explain their haste, their route and the arguments in the final days in the car.

      That said, it’s true that the winery idea is conjecture, i.e., a conclusion based on speculation. I have never said otherwise, and I’ve made it clear that to me there is nothing at all wrong with visiting wineries. Mr. Windells, on the other hand, has made claims as to facts, and then declined to provide the evidence to back up his claims.

      I note that Mr. Windells is running Internet fund-raisers for the Kim family, and is a friend of Mrs. Kim’s. We have no interest of any kind in the case, other than wanting to know exactly what happened.
1075. Hi Paul and Glenn. 🙂 I see the discussion has thinned out considerably.
1076. Oh, Chuck, there was no need to repeat once again your conjecture, I remember it from the first how-may-times? Haven’t things picked up at your site yet?

      Glenn and Paul and Kip, has everyone else of substance left?
1077. Scott,
      I understand and appreciate your wanting to correct anything you feel mis-quoted to you, but you are honestly fighting a loosing battle.

      Chucky wants his site to be the site of info, but as Glen said there is literally NO one going to his site. Well, correction, maybe two people. Chucky is basicially posting back & forth to himself.

      I think he is trying to draw information from you, information which has nothing to do with anything, at this point. Either that or he is trying to draw Katie on here & knows you have direct access to her. He wasn’t able to do it through Katie’s dad, and now is trying to give it a shot through you, not that you will, just that he is trying.

      The SARS mistakes have been hashed and re-hased. The official report is out, the Govenor is doing an review, per say of SAR. I may have my opinions on the report, but I think Part II was pretty specific and pretty on target, and yes, it was scathing. Part three, so-so, an attempt at white wash. But it’s done and it’s in & the Govenor is involved. That’s the most we can expect and I’m basically satisfied.

      The problems with not checking the leads James gave, also have been hashed & re-hased. There are questions here that will never be answered regardless of how many times they are asked. James gave his views and was very, very gracious regarding the SAR’s folks.

      After that,my problem was, James gave them a lead, they choose not to follow it promptly, then when Katie and the girls were found where James (and everyone else suspected, including SARS folks) they tried to turn the blame around on James for the road not being cleared. He came on this site to answer questions, was initially treated horribly & few stood up for him. James has nothing to loose in his recount of what happened, the SARS folks did, especially as they are the ones who called for the review. Do the math.

      As Lisa said, they can’t have it both ways but they tried to play it both ways. Everyone else who came on this site who was involved in this tragedy was given, from the very beginning, repect, even in dis-agreement. James was sought out and requested to come to this site & initially treated shabbily, also by SARS memebers. Whereas others were given respect by SARS memebers.

      How much credibility should be given to what a local, non-official SAR or even volunteer has to say? This is where is comes into play the good parts of a small community. People know each other, know their ‘record’, etc. ect. People also know the immediate area of their location. Such information has to be taken on an individual basis by each local SAR.

      For me, a lesson learned here, if I were a local where a SAR mission was taking place and I felt I had important information they should check into, I would make an offical, WRITTEN & WITNESSED statement as to the information I was giving, make sure it got to the proper authority and have that authority sign that they received it. If that authority refused to sign that they received the info, then I would go a step higher.
1078. Well put, Frances, on all counts.
1079. re 1074. James Kim liked wine, and there is a series of wineries located about 20 miles west of the area between Wilsonville and Corvalis.

      The Kims owned and had interest in boutiques. There are many more boutiques than wineries. With the word of a friend added, it makes way more sense to conjecture that they visited at least one boutique. But, again, I add, this is irrelevant.
1080. Frances, before you did the posting I checked the stats. Believe me, we have plenty of hits. Much more traffic than I expected. I’m not real good at interpreting the numbers because I’m not a website geek, but Dee informs me that we’ve got nothing to worry about as far as people seeing it goes.

      We didn’t get a lot of comments because I put up some pretty intimidating comment rules in the beginning. A lot of people were afraid to post. Now, there really isn’t all that much more to say. It’s down to the die hards with respect to comments. But readers? No lack of those.

      KimTragedy.info is going to on the Internet for many years to come. I’m going to make sure of it, so that anyone who wants to produce an account of the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6 will need to take our version — the definitive version — into account as they do so.
1081. 1059- Hi! Joe – I am going through emoticon smiley withdrawal in the rest of my life!

      In regard to prioritizing local wisdom, 2 possible ideas that would work best together:

      1) Evidence: details that support the hunch or lead (i.e. in this case, tire tracks; Stanton and Rubrecht reported they did not see them, but it had snowed since the tracks were first made, so they would have had to look relatively carefully. Stanton and Rubrecht were driving in their own vehicle on top of the tire tracks and it was never reported that they actually looked for the tire tracks, only that they didn’t “see” them.)

      2) Context: In the case most cited in Port Orford, many
      townspeople reported the woman was a drama queen. There will always be those who used publicized events to try to get attention for themselves, but usually there is a context for their reliability on such issues.
1082. Not going to get into it with you, Chucky, you’re lame and a waste of time.

      Am posting this fact for others –
      HITS do NOT qualifiy as interaction.
      There is ability to generate income from the amount of HITS.

      Yes, I saw the number of hits. For that number of hits with such amazing little interaction speaks volumes, regardless of the viewpoints being expressed.
1083. I stopped by to see where this site has gone over the past several days while I had a few minutes this morning, things have really gotten strange. I am sad to see that the focus of this group has shifted from ideas on how to improve SAR, to over analyzing events that were not completely revealed in the OSSA report. It is important to note that as I reminded you a few days ago, all of the JoCo assignments and/or search strategies/techniques were not noted in this report. Some of Jackson County’s were included, but that’s because they had submitted a “report” of those. I did not have an opportunity to compile the search assignments into a “report” before they were taken by detectives for the investigation. It is important to remind you again, that strategy and tactics were not meant to be the focus of this report to begin with.

      I wanted to list a couple of things. I am not going to stay here and debate them, I have too much catching up to do at work to spend that much time here. I just wanted to clear some obvious misunderstandings while I had the opportunity.

      Friday: Jo Co and Curry Co. searched Peavine and 34-8-36 to FS23 and all of the way over to where Curry Co made it in 4×4’s. The last leg of this was done by volunteers in our snowcat. I worked with Dinsmore by phone and we had NG fly the entire length of that road *Curry and Josephine Co sides. Carson and Jackson Co flew this same area that day.

      Saturday: Jo Co SO was attempting to contact officials by phone to relay witness information, contacting witnesses and meeting with Spencer Kim/Carson. FS LE and several Jo Co SAR volunteers worked the west side of 34-8-36 (Chrome Ridge, Onion Mtn, Shan Cr., Taylor Cr, Silver Cr.) areas with 4×4’s and snowcat. Door to door interviews also took place with residents on Galice Cr. This was a strategy based on possible witness information, which at the time, was not ruled out yet.

      Sunday: Meeting occurred between myself, Powers, Anderson, Harris and Stanton and Fuqua at the Sheriff’s Office. At first light, searchers were continuing to finish their assignments that were not completed the day before. When those assignments had been completed, they started working their way up the 34-8-36 road, checking all side roads along their way with snowcat and 4×4’s. There was a searcher on 34-8-36 past FS23 on Sunday. He took the first spur road and made it quite far before he got stuck in the snow and chained up to come back down. By this time, Jackson County was on the mountain and was continuing to clear FS23 in the daylight (our snowcat had run at night and had a very low POD, probability of Detection, over the sides). When the searchers returned that evening, they were debriefed and search areas were recorded. Assignments were started for the next day. The searcher that had gotten stuck on the side road off of 34-8-36 had noted that his assignment was not completed and that his recommendation was to send snowcat the next day during daylight hours. That assignment was given to Jackson County the very next morning. There were hundreds of miles of roads cleared on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. The report and following discussion here indicates that nothing else was occurring on that mountain while we were all meeting at the SO. That is simply not true.

      One other point to make is regarding the ill-dressed searchers that went into the drainage on Monday. There was a team of searchers whose assignment was to clear roads by vehicle only. They were not intended to be ground searchers in any way. Remember I told you that Search and Rescue takes all types? These two men ARE NOT and WILL NOT ever be ground pounders. Does that mean that they cannot be used on a search? No. That means that they will continue to be given appropriate search assignments, such as driving roads in a truck. There is a perfectly good explanation as to how they ended up in that drainage. On Monday, there were many assignments given to teams to search north of the river (Douglas County, where Stivers were found). It took about two hours just to drive to their search areas. Several teams were sent to the south side of the river to complete spur roads that were not assigned to Jackson County snowcats that Monday. This particular team was assigned to drive up Peavine detour and search all side roads to the right (including Peavine lookout). They had just completed that assignment when the call came in about Kati and the girls. We immediately turned around all teams that were north of the river to reassign them back to the south side when they all were delayed by a traffic accident on I5. In the meantime, the team in question here was close and responded to the drainage. The pilot in the air did not know the qualifications of the two men in this 4×4 and asked them to enter the drainage. It should have been the responsibility of those two men to tell the pilot that they were not equipped to jump into that ravine, but as I understand it now, adrenaline got the best of them. They thought that James would be right at the bottom. They were taken over by emotion and jumped out of their truck without using common sense. Was that a mistake? Absolutely! Do I fault them for this? How can I? I probably would have done exactly the same, and I am in no way equipped or in the shape necessary to hike that canyon. Was this anyone’s fault? I am sure that you all will find some. These are real people folks, they make bad decisions. They were trying to help, and made a mistake. Do you think they will ever do it again? Not a chance!

      Many people have talked here about the conversation between the James brothers, Stanton and I on the mountain that day. Each of us was working with different information when we headed up the mountain. Each of us has had a different experience with lost or stranded people on that mountain. All in different locations. To say that it was common that people got lost on 34-8-36 past FS23 may be true. It is because of people like John James that those people are redirected and never get reported to the Sheriff’s Office. I commend JJ for his actions. It is however important to note though, that because of his good deeds time and time again, that road was not a known common problem for SO. Were there misunderstandings between the four of us that day? Sure. I think that since JJ and I have met since our interviews, we understand each other much better. If I have ever given the indication that I blamed JJ for this unfortunate situation, I was wrong! I do not hold him responsible in any way, shape or form for not finding the Kim’s himself, or for us not finding them sooner. He is a good Samaritan, and should be treated as such. We all could have communicated better that day, for that I am sorry. You can rehash this over and over, but it will never change the outcome. Can’t we move on to something else yet?

      I have seen comments here, like the fact that wearing vests in command was not a monumental sign of improvement. I am sorry that you see things that way. That was only one example of something improved in the operation. It seems as though you have forgotten or maybe overlooked the fact that we just got this report on Thursday. We have had four search missions in the past week. 1) SAR assisted motorists and took nurses to work at the hospital during the snowstorm, 2) an elderly male seen 4 weeks prior, remains were found, and it is possible that he was eaten by his own dogs, 3) A stolen vehicle was found in the Rogue River, our divers assisted with the possible rescue and then the recovery of that vehicle, 4) 34 yo male missing near Hog Cr who possibly fell into the river. While the report of new vests may not be a big deal to you, it was important to us. There are many other things that are being worked on as well, it was only a comment that I made while checking in here for help during the Hog Cr. search. I am sorry that I didn’t spend the time to update all of you on all of the improvements being used in the middle of the search. I was trying to be brief and get back to the command post. I will know better next time.

      I would sure like to see more energy going into ideas for improvements, rather than speculating on details. I cannot find the time to weed through all of the information and questions presented here, but fear that my absence is being taken as fear to tell the truth. That simply is not the case. There is still only one of me here. Here with all of the issues that need to be worked on. With the support of our new administration, our AMAZING volunteers, and with the continued support of our community, we will get there. That I promise you.

      Thank you to those who have contacted me directly to ask questions or for clarification. I have told you that I will continue to do my best to answer emails
1084. On Friday afternoon, Sarah Rubrecht, Josephine County’s emergency services manager, and Jason Stanton, a BLM deputy, set out for Bear Camp Road from Grants Pass in a four-wheel-drive Ford Expedition.

      Rubrecht said the drive made her “extremely car sick” and she had to stop several times along the route because she was afraid she’d vomit. She said she and Stanton decided to “turn off all logic” and simply follow the signs to the coast as an inexperienced traveler might do. When they came to the logging road, Stanton and Rubrecht went straight.

      “Where I’m holding the most guilt is that when Jason and I drove up on Friday, we got to that fork in the road,” Rubrecht said. “What we didn’t take into consideration is that it was snowing hard the night the Kims went through, and they couldn’t see that sign to the coast.

      That same morning, John James, 45, the owner of Black Bar Lodge on the Rogue River, heard about the Kims on television and “had a hunch” they were up on that very spur road. James said he has redirected countless motorists over the years who had strayed off Bear Camp onto the logging road. He left a message with Rubrecht but says she didn’t call back, an account Rubrecht later confirmed. So James and his brother went up the spur road on their snowmobiles. It hadn’t snowed for a few days, and he said they hit bare ground after traveling about one mile. Before that, however, they could see fresh tire tracks that had been snowed over recently. Later that day, he ran into Rubrecht and Stanton on Bear Camp Road. He says he told them about the tracks and that someone needed to check the logging roads thoroughly.

      He says Rubrecht brushed him off. “She was rude in attitude, very curt,” James said. “They definitely weren’t real receptive to us being up there, it was like, ‘Joe Public doesn’t belong here.’ ” Rubrecht doesn’t deny being impatient with James on the road that day. “I was trying not to throw up,” she said. Rubrecht does not recall James telling her she needed to check his road. On the contrary, she said she “lowered it on her priority list” because she recalls him saying he had checked it. She says she did not, however, cross the road off the list of possibilities. “I would have never cleared the road just by some citizen telling me they ran the road,” she said. “But it may have gotten mentally lowered on the priority list because we only had a limited number of resources in the first couple of days.” She says she only remembers James tell her generally to “check those spur roads,” to which her response was, “Duh? What else am I going to do?”

      Rubrecht didn’t call out search teams to inspect the logging roads.

      -oregonian
1085. Until Kati Kim speaks up you’re going to keep getting people speculating. The report gave us alot of info, but left big holes. The result is people can’t stop trying to figure it ou.
1086. Hypothetical question to any JoCo SAR official: – – If 10 different drivers who were not familiar with the area set out for Agnes from Merlin on alternate stormy, snowy, black nights, how many of the 10 do you think would end up taking the 34-8-36 dead end road at the F-23 junction? None? Possibly some?
1087. Yes, dkf747, it would be good for Kati Kim to speak up. I hope she will grant an interview to someone who is informed about the contradictions between her accounts and those of others. I don’t believe she’s been entirely forthcoming with investigators, and as a result I think there is an untold story here.
1088. JoCoSAR said:
      I would sure like to see more energy going into ideas for improvements, rather than speculating on details.

      Very well stated! No matter how much speculation or analysis (or the imaginations of delusional ones) the tragic end will not change. Even after all our research, review and discussions I believe we come back to three major areas for preventing future similar incidents:

      1) Improved Mapping clearly warning the status of this route to the coast (or greatly improving and maintaining the road)

      2) Improved Signage if a traveller does head this direction.

      3) Public Service Education including emergency kits anytime one enters wilderness roads

      In addition I hope the attention that this particular case has drawn results in a positive impact of SAR funding and coordination statewide.

      For many of us that have been involved in this website it has also brought the opportunity to learn and unite and discuss and disagree. In some cases contributors added learning to just how riduculous and pompous some people can be – in most cases contributors were adding value, discussion and I for one have learned a great deal. I appreciate the space that Joe has graciously provided and the many discussions and perspectives – it really has been a eye-opener for me.

      Thank you all
1089. We net.kooks want to make one thing perfectly clear. This is simply conjecture. We can only guess what really goes on in Chucky’s brain.
1090. To Whomever is left here.
      This is John James.
      I said I would visit again.
      I wanted to address a couple of things that you folks asked as I did a quick scan.
      I don’t read most of what is here I just look for my Name and Respond to those. I don’t beleive that a single point here about reforming SAR protocol will ever amount to anything. ( I hope I am wrong but we’ll see).
      Glenn, quite a ways back you posed the question asking why I was so hard on Sara and Not Stanton. Sara and I had a face to face that lasted almost four hours, we came to an understanding if not total agreement. I ask that you let it go after this comment. I called in to JoCo SD and asked the person who didn’t identify themself to me who I should talk to about my hunch that the Kims were up in the Bear Camp Area. I was sent to Saras’ voicemail and told she was the one in charge.
      She had the title as portrayed to me of Emergency services Manager Or Coordinator. I left two messages and received no return call.
      When I met Stanton and Sara up on the mountain Stanton initially spoke and did throw off the initial attitude. The second half of the conversation was with Sara and whether I was already offended or whatever, the statements she made completed my opinion of their disdain for my brother and I. (or at least that is how I felt). I In fact, incorrectly assumed that since Sara had a Title, that she was in charge and so I probably put my greatest amount of frustration on her. I later learned that the chain of command in SAR and LE when it comes to searches is bizarre. I am not sure why Trained SAR employees would surrender authority to a Patrol Deputy but I guess that is the way it is. (seems foolish but who am I).
      As I have said Sara and I have worked it out and I have a better understanding of how the whole jumble works.
      I still stand behind each and every statement I have made in regards to this whole deal.
      KIP,
      You made a statement in regards to someones comment about heroes in this whole deal refering to myself and John Rachor.
      Let me make one thing crystal clear, I AM NOT OR NEVER HAVE PORTRAYED MYSELF AS A HERO IN THIS EVENT IN ANY FASHION AND NO ONE ELSE SHOULD EITHER. I failed, and as such cannot be considered heroic. I allowed myself to be led to beleive that I was a hindrance to the “Official Efforts” and so I repected authority and left the task incomplete.
      For that I will never forgive myself.
      With all due repect to Kati’s Dad, in the search aspect there is one and only one HERO and his name is JOHN RACHOR.
      Period, end of story.
      Kati was a hero in saving and sustaining her babies lives.
      I don’t give a Damn what the dictionary version of HERO is.
      My definition is simple, “It is a good samaritan that has no stake in the event that goes to great effort to save others.” You can quote me on that.
      If you are an employee of SAR or LE and you find or save someone, GOOD FOR YOU, YOU DID YOUR JOB. PERIOD!!!!!
      Heroes are guys that jump in front of a train to save a total stranger, Heroes catch a toddler falling from a fire escape. If it is your job just do it and be humble.
      I give credit to SAR volunteers not paid employees, volunteers don’t have to be there they choose to be there.

      One final thought from post 1086 and this is no affront to the Kims but just my opinion.
      In the scenario you describe Kip I think that something like 9.9 of those ten would turn around in the same conditions you alluded to.
      Of the .1 that would choose to continue it would be 50/50.
      Just my opinion but you know I am “just a Local citizen”
      John
1091. I have to make an addendum to my hero statement, I said Kati is a hero for saving her babies lives because she literally gave of her body for 9 days so her kids could live. That qualifies in my book.
1092. If any of you want to help with signage please contact Jim Roper with the Medford District Office of the BLM.
      He is the Grants Pass Area Head road engineer.
1093. John – Thanks for coming back and for news on the signage. I’ll get in touch with Jim and see if we can promote that a little more broadly.
      To help call: Jim Roper, BLM (541) 471-6631
      I’ll try to post more details here after I talk to Jim myself.

      JoCoSAR – thanks for the long detailed comment. It’s time for all of us to move to a new phase in all this where we come up with solutions, not criticisms.
1094. Mr. James, YOU GO!!! Good for you!!!!!!!

      If you do not want to be considered a hero I will not refer to you as such, but I will say I respect you.

      Also, I never saw any response to the smearing of Mr. James which was being attempted in the local paper. Nor did I EVER see a public apology to Mr. James for that, even though I made a point earlier in the blog about this.

      Mr. James, after he meeting with Sara, came and posted a very heart felt and gracious post. I do not think that if I had been in his situation, I would’ve been able to have been so gracious.

      Mr. James, you did what you felt best and much more than some would’ve done – this is not a cut to anyone, it’s simply a general statement. You backed off as you thought you’d reported it to the proper officials, and what I get is that you didn’t go further as you didn’t want to interfer in the search as it was given the indication if you continued. Which, given the info and situtation that was known at the time, was what most people would’ve done and was the proper thing to do. Hindsight shows differently, but you didnt’ know that at the time and please don’t feel badly that you put faith in those whom people were supposed to put their faith in.

      The report is finished now, gag orders are off.

      If anyone has any disagreement with what the Oregonian reported, now the the time to ask for correction and I sure as *#&$ don’t see any of those who stated the reports from the Oregonian was wrong, asking for any corrections. As I said earlier, do the math.

      Katie Kim was misquoted and she wasted no time in getting that straighten up. So until I see where anyone request correction, I will take the Oregon articles at face value because the facts stated in the article corelate with facts learned here.

      Sara, ANY improvement is good, a move in the right direction. I don’t know who made the issue about the vest, if it was yourself or Emily. What I found offensive, and I may have taken the issue of the vest wrong, and if so I do apologize, is it was presented like, oh wow we got new vest, see how much we’re working on improving.

      You want to credit given for improvments already made and state there are other more important improvements other than the vest already made but all I recall is about vest. If there are other more important improvements made, then post them. Don’t get upset when all you post is about vest and little to nothing else about other improvements.
1095. As I have said Sara and I have worked it out and I have a better understanding of how the whole jumble works

      I’m glad you worked it out and that everyone feels good. After all, that’s what really matters, correct? Of course, there is the matter of the dead man. [deleted] Inconvenient for sure, and the mention is surely considered rude.
1096. 1083, You say you don’t have the time to post about improvements in process,to move on & put focus ideas for improvements, not foucs to rehash old details, not exact quote, but meanings the same.

      Yet you have time to write an extensive narative regarding four days of the search. You state you were trying to be brief when stating about the vest. If there were/are others more important improvements made/in process then it seems, if time is of issue and needing to post briefly, then those more important issues would’ve been mentioned.

      Again, it can’t be both ways.

      If there are other improvements in process, I for one would like to hear what they are.
1097. Its come to my attention tonight, quite late, that I may have uspet Ms. Brenda Helverson a couple of weeks ago when I posted something, asking her if she was drunk. I already apologized for my actions back on page five, but want to make clear that I do not know Brenda, have never met Brenda, and do not know if she was drunk. I was joking, and annoyed by her repetitive postings and said something rude in return. Again, I have never met Brenda and do not even know if she has ever drank any alcohol in her life, and figured most people here know, that I do not know Brenda.

      I do apolgoize, to anyone I may have offended during my time here, as I do not know anyone here in person. I am also done blogging/commenting as its not worth the risk of getting sued over a slip of the tounge, when terrible things are happening all over the planet that deserve our attention. I make mistakes in my daily speech all the time and must conserve my attention to fixing those missteps, cant take the time to fix all of my mistakes made on a public forum, in writing.

      Again, best wishes, especially to Kati and her family. And thanks again Joe for letting us have a space to discuss this emotional and multi-faceted story.

      Also, something you might all find interesting…

      http://news.com.com/2010-1028-6022491.html

      I hope everyone here remembers that a father/husband died an untimely and tragic death, and we all gathered here because it struck us and many of us could relate. I hope this blog doesn’t turn into an entirely different story.

      peace…

      8)

      that was for you lisa
1098. 1097/Mapper: You brought much great wisdom and insight to this forum. Some people just take things far too seriously and feel compelled to threaten others to make themselves feel self-riteous and overly important. To them I can only say – get a life, and leave good people who are trying to help alone.
1099. ‘I for one would like to hear what they are’

      Shall we all screem: “Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”.?
1100. Mapper,
      I for one understood you were joking and just taking a irritated jap and meant no harm by it nor meant it to reflect on Ms. Brenda Helverson or whatever her lifestyle may be or not be.
      Frances
1101. 1099. Well, paulj, I was just told essentially that there were improvements made which hadn’t been given credit for.

      Gosh, I was just asking what those improvements are… shucks… I’d like to give credit for them…
1102. 1083. Sara,
      “It is important to remind you again, that strategy and tactics were not meant to be the focus of this report to begin with.”

      What was susposed to be the focus of this report and for what reasons was the review requested for in the first place?
1103. The officials want to emphasize “inter agency communication” in the report as a way of downplaying the role that any one agency might have in what it actually did.
1104. Hero?
      Don’t forget Winston Churchill’s “They also serve who only stand and wait”.

      Heroes are those who compile reports in the hopes that mistakes will not be repeated.

      heroes are those who slog through the cold and damp when they could be home enjoying some hot chocolate and a fireplace.

      Heroes are those who open their coffeeshop earlier to accommodate volunteers enroute to an assembly point.

      Heroes are those who take down a commercial advertisement and put up a description of a missing vehicle.

      The heros who make headlines may be the ones who pilot a helicopter and actually find the missing vehicle, but all who play a role deserve our thanks.
1105. (1104)

      And then there are heroes who are fools gold, and heroes who are true ore.
1106. Frances,
      You are one of the folks here that has been nothing but gracious and supportive and for that I thank you.
      I hope good things come from all the review but sadly I am skeptical.
      There are also others that have been very very nice and I thank you also, you know who you are.
      Thanks you Joe for this forum and I will get ahold of you for the lunch when things settle down for me on the building project I am working on.
      All of you have a Good life (even the cynics),
      John James
1107. John – thanks for participating in the search efforts and also for comments here at the blog. I’m looking forward to meeting you!
1108. 😀 Attention 😀

      The discussion continues here:
      https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2007/01/25/kim-search-discussion-page-10/

      Ha – although a lot of folks have ‘left’ the traffic indicates people are still dropping in so it’s on to … page ten!