Kim Search discussion page ONE
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- The Kim Family Search discussion now spans 3 pages of comments.
You are on page 3 of the comments.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 1:35 am –> | Edit - Yay, a whole new page for another 1000+! Thank you, Joe.
Comment by Maggie | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 1:43 am –> | Edit
- Sigh… I will never catch up…
What were the comments Katie Kim made in her blog about her in-laws? I have looked through here and all I can find is a link which doesn’t work (blog taken down)?
I’ve looked through the net and all I can find is someone said she was kicked out of her in-laws, didn’t say anything else, but the poster was sort of anti, you know? It sure wasn’t a post I’d put in any faith in but as it has been mentioned here, I was wondering.Comment by Frances Baker | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 5:11 am –> | Edit
- To Susan,
I found my reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim - Frances Ill email you the link. shoot me an email at Harley168@hotmail.com
- Good morning and Merry Christmas one and all! Merry Christmas JoCoSAR!
- Good Christmas morning all! Finally got through all the posts from 1126 forward. Whew! The link to Kati’s blog did not work for me either.
This has to be a very difficult time for her.
Comment by Gayle | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 8:37 am –> | Edit
- http://www.yelp.com/topic/zxXvLvoUV7×4qjjyi0sZhQ
Hopefully that one will work…
Comment by glenn | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 8:43 am –> | Edit
- Joe not sure why that link isn’t working…if you type it in it will work…
- Hopefully this one will take you directly to Kati’s blog.
http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=R2NYGnt_yfMadjJ-2Bc1tA
- Thank you, Glenn, you’re a gem. Kati’s first Christmas without James sounds more difficult than I thought.
- Of course it is none of my business (although I suppose her putting it on a public blog does put it out there for public comment) but I had a thought that family life might be pretty rough after this. I’m sure there is a need to blame. (Who decided to keep going? Who decided that James should go out and seek help?) A beloved son is gone. The wife (who seems on the artsy, alternative side, perhaps not the ideal daughter in law in certain eyes) is there as a reminder.
Who knows.
- (12) When my little brother died people in the family all grieved in different ways, some by getting closer, some by pushing away. You never get over a loss like that, and it does take about two years to actually get back your normal mental and emotional and physical and decision making functioning. And anger and blame and guilt are all normal. Hopefully for the children’s sake, both Kati and the in-laws will get some grief counselling. And hopefully they can learn to forgive each others coping skills during this difficult time. Those little girls will need their paternal grandparents more than ever now.
Comment by Susan | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 10:54 am –> | Edit
- I had gone to Kati’s yelp site the day they found James.
That day on the side where it lists little facts
about her, and it says ‘favorite crush’ she had written,
‘Farrell always’ I presumed she meant Will Farrell.
Because she definitely seems to appreciate humor.But I noticed when I looked today, her ‘favorite crush’
was ‘her winged soldier’, and that broke my heart all over
again…Comment by Lisa | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 11:12 am –> | Edit
- May James’ family and Kati find a way to get together in love today. And may the children have comfort and peace today.
Comment by D.H. | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 11:26 am –> | Edit
- (13.) Susan, I hear you and agree. I have lost 2 brothers, one young in 1976 (murdered) and one adult in 2001 (suicide), and one granddaughter in 2006 (suicide) and you are so right. I think often the manner of passing has a lot to do with it, too.
- #13 – Sudden and unexpected deaths, are harder than those seen coming. Couple that with James trying to save the lives of his family and it has to be a very difficult burden. The holidays make it harder as it is so much a time for family. Our family had a sudden loss near Thanksgiving and that holiday never felt the same for the longest time. I would agree with Susan’s comment – it takes a solid two years for any sense of normal to return. Christmas and Thanksgiving are going to be tough holidays for the Kim family for some time to come, but time has a way of healing the deepest of hurts.
Comment by Paul | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 11:47 am –> | Edit
- It’s a long time ago now, but my wife and I lost our youngest son because of cancer when he was 4 years old. Took me 20 years before I was able to share the anguish that I didn’t even know was inside of me. My wife, now x, I don’t think ever got over it. She immersed herself in a spiritual quest that took her away from me and my two young, at the time, boys. She’s still at it. Doing some good work, though, I think.
- Well, she did say “grieving” in laws, seeming to acknowledge that they are not themselves right now. I have to say, though, kicking out the grandkids…ouch.
Lisa, her profile has some other heartbreaking notes, like her last meal, and her most recent read.
- Kip and Susan, my deepest, most heartfelt sympathy to you for your losses.
- Deleted at Lisa’s request…
- Re: 21 addition
At the very end of that I wanted to say:
“And there is nothing to fear with that love, because
it is boundless pure love. It can never be lost – no
matter what. It can always be given, if we choose it.”Re: 19 Yes, I agree joy – I saw them too, so
poignant. - I wasn’t going to say, because I know Joe removed it for good reason, and I think he is far more right to remove it than I was for posting it, but since it’s being discussed anyway, please notice that it did not say “in-laws” plural, so we do not know who the “in-law” was (probably better that way – certainly none of my business, likely not something Kati would want us all chatting about here). Anyway, that’s all from me on this. I’m sorry.
Merry Christmas!
- (23) Hi Maggie…guess I missed something…what was removed?
- [20] thank you Gayle. i’m usually reluctant to say very much about that which I mentioned but I’m glad I did. In a way it’s honouring of little Mark. Often it seems the very best go needlessly and sometimes very difficultly. James’s last hours alive must have been horrible beyond words.
- Re: 21
We can delete that one too later Joe, I know it is
somewhat off topic. And I will look at the last page
and give you the numbers we can delete from there.p.s. Kip – Each experience is very different. I didn’t
mean my experience to have any relation to yours. I
just felt moved to share it as well… - Re: 25
It is my hope and belief that James’ last hours were
not necessarily so difficult. It was my experience with
hypothermia that it shuts you down beyond your will,
and it is very frustrating because you can’t control
or have much say in the condition of your body anymore.But from the fact that he was wearing his backpack
when they found him, and from his position in the
creek he was still on the move. He hadn’t written
any parting notes – it seems to me that he never gave
up, and was trying to the end… - This is what I wrote in my condolences to the Kim
family:“James Kim is a precious man. He Loves You Very Much.
He Will Always Be With You, and he never gave up…[I think it is healing to speak or think of a loved one passed
in the present tense, because they are and should be very present to us
as long as we want and need them to be. This is my impression of James.
I was thinking especially of Kati and the girls. But I have a feeling that
everyone who knew James and cared for him will recognize him in these
words.] - Maggie don’t worry, no big deal.
Since people are interested in the Yelp info and with so many posts about it I’ll leave up the link above though I don’t want to encourage this angle on the discussion because IMHO that stuff is best kept in the family even though it is now in a public posting.
Merry Christmas Everybody. I’m now stuffed and happy because the kids really had a fine time today! Hope you all are enjoying a nice holiday day as well.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 4:59 pm –> | Edit - Joe, you can go ahead and delete (21). I might repost
just the last paragraph. - OK Lisa – I deleted it though it was fine by me. My point before was just trying to have folks keep to the topic of the search and rescue rather than focusing on Kim family private matters.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 7:32 pm –> | Edit
- Yes Joe, thanks! I understand. I think that Christmas
in part, just made people feel more sentimental.I am glad you had a cozy Christmas!
- Here is my last outpouring of sentiment, my Christmas
wish for all those in the world in need of it:And although it may sound simple and cliche’ the best
way for healing is lots of love. Lots and lots and lots
of love. Endless, boundless love. Not conditional love,
but unconditional love. Love that has no ego, resentment,
or defenses. Love that is Pure Love, full and full and
fuller of love and only love. That is the love that can
heal the greatest pain, the love we all have within us,
and that we can all give to ourselves and others… And there is nothing to fear with this love, because it is boundless pure love. It can never be lost – no matter what. It can always be felt if we open ourselves to it, and given if we choose it…In our world, that is so full of judgement and criticism,
we don’t get to feel and give this love as often as it is
needed and deserved. And even those who we think may not
deserve it, would most likely be better off if they had received it at the right times. As far as I know, all babies
are born needing and deserving this love. And admittedly or
not, deep down most of us still do… You know it feels
good! - Thanks Lisa, that’s a nice idea for Christmas as well as the other 364 days in the year.
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 8:41 pm –> | Edit
- I’ve been following these posts and appreciate all of the discussion immensely. Lots of good ideas coming from everyone, and I think most people here understand that the after-action aspect of this incident should be to learn from rather than point fingers. We have formed ideas about this case based largely upon the information available from the media, which was pretty much all we had, and it’s so good to get some other insight (thanks, JoCoSAR).
Comment by Madeleine | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 9:34 pm –> | Edit
- I agree we received some more information from JoCoSAR (thanks).
However, we still do not have all the facts, etc and more importantly we do not know who JoCoSAR is or what their motivation, agenda really is?
A lot of us made assessments based on the media reports and have adjusted some of it based on information from JoCoSAR.
Please remember we have no idea who JoCoSAR is. JoCoSAR comes across as a intelligent, thoughtful person and who has been trained to discuss and collect information.
Motiviation seems to be to provide a positive light on Sara R. Hopefully sometime on or around Jan 5th we will receive more details and hopefully JoCoSAR, Sara R, and anyone else involved with JoCoSAR will join us here to discuss.
Afterall we really want to understand what happened so we can help in the future.
I still do not think we have a clear picture of many of the issues. Let’s all hope they will get an objective review and investigation done.
- You’re right, you have no idea who JoCoSAR is. I am here for no other reason than to suggest that you keep your minds open to other possibilities. I am not here to change your opinion of Sara R. at all. I am hoping that the report will do that for you. If it does not, then so be it. I just wanted to come here and remind you that as always, there are always two sides to every story. No other motivation Glenn, I promise.
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 9:46 pm –> | Edit
- (37) I think most of our minds are open…we can only process what we know. Do you know if the findings will be made public on Jan 5th?
A very good point about two sides of the story. There always are two side and both need to be heard. We can’t wait!!!
Thanks for focusing my thoughts regarding your motivation – it is clear and I look forward to more conversations in the near future.
Thanks.
- Re: 34
Yes, that is my wish – that everyone has it when they
need it…In this country, it would cause a downturn in the
anti-depressant market which is huge, and I think the lack of it is a big reason why depression rates can be so high – I don’t have the quote but I read that they are quite high in the U.S….Re: 35
I agree learning and making appropriate, effective changes is what is most important, and I think it’s the best way to honor James’ Kim and all those involved…
- Quite honestly, with the due date to the Gov’s office on the 5th, the investigators may wait until 5pm on that date. I have not heard any further information about the release. I would imagine that those involved would be able to talk about it openly after that date..assuming the investigation is over by then. I know that an email has already been sent tonight to the investigators regarding getting this thing going! I know that those involved are anxious to get this out in the open. I would hope that with the short deadline for the report, the public release would be quick as well…one can only hope!
- (40) Assuming the investigation is completed by the 5th…then I am looking forward to talking with you right here at 5pm on the 5th.
- I agree that I do hope we get to hear more details after Jan 5th. Until then, thanks to JoCoSAR’s contributions here, I’m withholding any judgement and not feeling so certain about the things I thought we “knew” from the media’s reports. Much said by JoCoSAR has sounded very plausible in ways I hadn’t considered, so my mind has been re-opened. It will be interesting to see how much of the report is released and what all is included, and I, too, hope that JoCoSAR and others will join the discussion that’s likely to follow any release of the report’s information.
- Thank you Glenn…I will be here on the 5th…looking forward to it!
- I dunno, it doesn’t seem that out of line to acknowledge the emotional chaos that was left behind by this incident (particularly the parts that the parties involved are putting out in public. There must be a reason for that. And Yelp is huge and very public, it isn’t a personal blog, like this one.) Without the personal, who really cares about the political wrangling and logistics behind the scenes.
As far as JoCoSAR, I haven’t read through every post, but I certainly acknowledge that the first part of the effort may have been (reasonably) concentrating on the idea that the family must have run off the road, which slowed the search and dictated the emphasis. That certainly made more sense than the reality. I’ll be interested in seeing the report.
- (44) Not sure I can go with the run off the road yet.
And if that was the thought – where they prioritized the search is still the issue.
Joe had a good idea where to look…and in the S.C. couple that was missing I had an idea of exactly what happened to them and where to look…
I would say both of those cases have to do with our local knowledge of the areas. I can’t speak for Joe so he might want to elaborate but in the case of the S.C. couple – every time I have been on that highway I have thought many times – if you went off the road here you wouldn’t be found for days.
Also in that case from what I know at this point – LE and EMS both had failures in execution. Granted they probably couldn’t have saved them but they should have found them the AM they went missing.
- Remember Glenn…Jo Co didn’t even know that they were missing until Friday the 1st. It seemed crazy at best, that if they were on the road, nobody would have seen them yet. They had remember, been up there for a week already….
- I’m not sure either if I mentioned last night or if you had heard of the other “local” who was 99.9% sure that they had seen the Kim’s travelling back down the mountain on Sunday the 26th?
- (47) That would be the employee of Sara R.’s husband?
(46) That issue is a whole other discussion…things should have happened long before then – too bad it didn’t but that was before you guys for the most part.
- Re:36 Glenn, we are all on the trail of the somewhat elusive “facts” of this incident, and I am glad to know there may be more info forthcoming. Whatever the true identity of JoCoSAR is, it’s good to be reminded that the news outlets report by the seat of their pants during these incidents and accuracy takes a hit. While the Sheriff’s office and Emergency staff are certainly accountable for their actions or lack thereof, I’m also interested in the media handling of such incidents. If they were provided accurate info and chose to run with more dramatic headlines, then they ought to be held accountable as well. I suspect there were some misunderstandings in the heat of the moment as the story unfolded, and hopefully the true story will emerge.
- Re: 47
Yes, I think we heard about that at some point – that it
was a friend of Sara R’s husband who thought they saw the
Kims traveling back down?It seems to me that a fair number of the mistakes in the search had to do with various assumptions that were made
that turned out to be false.It seems that at times, even potential evidence was not
given enough credibility because of these assumptions.And that the assumptions influenced even what search
techniques and areas were involved.I have questions which I know JoCoSAR probably won’t
be able to answer at this time – they are too specific.But I was wondering if you could answer one question. On
the last page of this blog at one point, discussing motivations involved in moving through the canyon, you said ‘James Kim’s motivation was to save his family.’ ‘Our motivation was to find a missing person.’I wonder how that potential distinction of ‘trying to find
a missing person’ or persons vs. trying to rescue missing
person(s) affects a search and the urgency involved in
operations. - 49 – Madeleine, you make a good point about the media. So much power is placed in their hands to construct the way that they present information to the public, and they are, of course, in a business of selling their stories – there is a balance, but it does seem that there is plenty of room for a little gray here and there in between making a buck with a hint more drama and just telling the truth very objectively.
- Re: 50 addition
One assumption being that they would have followed
the signs to the coast and not taken the right at the
fork on 34-8-36 the BLM logging road – not sure I
remember the numbers exactly.Another assmuption being that James most likely wouldn’t
have made that much progress in the canyon? - If I understand your question correctly Lisa, recovering a person is just as important to SAR as rescuing a person. Granted, a rescue is a much happier ending, but bringing closure to a family is important as well…I think that we search for both close to the same. I know that we handle both circumstances as an emergency. There is no search worse than not finding anyone at all. That is a fairly deep question, maybe I just worded my response wrong? Regardless, what I can tell you about this search specifically, I dont believe that it ever crossed the searchers (or managements) minds that we wouldn’t find James alive.
Hope that answers somewhat? - (51) Unfortunately the media is often left with no choice. They have to push stories to sell newspapers. Think of the alternative if they didn’t do it…we would all be sitting discussing our theories and have no light at the end of tunnel. None of us could have gotten an investigation started,etc…
- I have a question open for opinion…Let’s pretend for a moment that the report comes out soon and Sara R. is cleared of any wrong doing. Would it be wise, or even worthwhile to pursue charges such as slander against the Oregonian? I have never followed a case like this, and have no idea what happens in matters like these??
- (55) I am a firm believer that no one wins in a lawsuit…PERIOD. The lawyers are the only ones that benefit.
If Sara R. is cleared…I would hope the Oregonian would be fair and report that – I have a feeling a lot of people here would be talking to them to do just that.
The report of the local that saw them drive off the mountain on the 26th…was that “lead” given more weight than other “leads” and if so, why?
- 51 – Glenn, agreed. It’s kind of an unnecessary unfortunate (I wouldn’t even say evil, just sometimes unfortunate).
55 – JoCoSAR, this is just my thoughts since I have no legal background, but even if the Oregonian didn’t paint Sara R. in a good light, unless they told blatant lies (the phone call is the only one you mentioned), I think it would be tough. I *do* think it would be worth pursuing another report in that case that kind of sets things straight.
- 57 – oops – I meant a necessary unfortuante… a few days off work and too much candy has addled my brain
- Glenn-regarding that particular “lead,” from what I understand of the incident, it was the ONLY “lead” available to Jo Co as of that Saturday (the 2nd). I believe that there is a difference between a “hunch” and a “lead.” This witness, regardless of how he got it reported to authorities, saw photos of the Kim family and positively Id’d them as who he saw…He did not say that he saw them drive off of the mtn, but saw them near the top of the mtn headed not towards the coast, but back towards Galice.
It wasn’t until Sunday that more “leads” were collaborated, such as the Dennys in Roseburg, Edge, etc. All of those were followed up on when shared as well. - (59) So was his eyewitness report correct? Did he see someone else or did he have the day wrong?
- I so appreciate the conversation…you all have such good, thought provoking points of view. Sure is much more entertaining than “Deal or No Deal!” Everyone around here is so tired of hearing about the whole search, nobody can talk about it without getting terribly upset or angry! It’s nice to have conversation with people who weren’t directly involved..thank you!
- glenn, I can only speculate what was wrong with that witness…maybe on the 6th we can talk about it???
- Maybe we are getting into too specific information here, but if you can answer, wasn’t it that Friday (the 1st) that John James called and then met Sara R. saying he’d seen tire tracks at the turn onto the BLM road? Would it have still been considered a hunch?
- I saw that yesterday, you were talking about the three evil guys that kept visiting this forum…has anyone gone back and seen PacNWer’s Mail Tribune forum about emergency preparedness?? sounds like he was really trying to help?! Good thoughts there as well…
- (64) Any good idea that Pac may or may not have had was totally lost in his approach. Sorry any person that speeds at over 90 mph on our highways and wears it as some sort of badge of honor doesn’t have any credibility.
If he is interested in saving lives he should slow down. After he does that then I would listen to him.
- argh, would love to answer that as well Maggie…can’t really get too much into that particular question. I can tell you that it didn’t happen quite that way at all. I can also tell you, just as someone who has been up Bear Camp this time of year, there are/were tracks absolutely everywhere from tree cutters. It’s that time of the year. One other thing to think about…if the Kims drove down a road that Saturday night and it was snowing, and Kati has said that it snowed for two days on them afterward, would tracks on a particular road be an actual clue? Or, would it still just be a “hunch?”
- Traveling back down the mountain on Sunday the 26th could technically have been 1am in the morning Sunday. Did the witness say daytime Sunday?
- 66 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. I wondered with another person about the ability to see old tracks after so much fresh snow falling on them somewhere back on the first page or so of this discussion. I just gave up wondering since the Oregonian said in a 12/10 article that John James and his brother were still able to see them even with snow somehow… But what you said actually makes a lot of sense to me. I think you did mention the Christmas tree cutting this time of year last night – sorry for asking again, though it is a very strong point worth seeing again, I think.
About the three trolls, Pac in particular – yes, I’ve even agreed with some of his points, and over at mailtribune he presents himself well, but over here there is so much hostility surrounding his message that he kind of drowns himself out on that so that he can get back to his real goal over on this blog, which is to irritate people and get responses.
- I mean, good grief, every time I think I have the “picture”, something else comes along… for all I know they could have camped at the viewpoint that night and done all their spur traveling in broad daylight the next morning! Argh is right!
- (6
I think the point about the tracks on the BLM road was that people got lost up there “all the time” and people didn’t typically go tree hunting on that road. So there were tracks everywhere…where people expected them but a road where they didn’t expect them had one set of tracks.
That is what I have gathered from it…but I wasn’t there so it is speculation on my part.
However, I do know that tire tracks will show up as indentations in the snow even if covered with fresh snow.
- 67 – Witness reported seeing them at about 1:30pm that Sunday afternoon…
Hey, did you know that it was common practice around here to have a bonfire and drink alot of beer when you take your family up a mountain to cut Christmas trees?? I didn’t either!!Strange things happen here in Southern Oregon!
- (71) Too bad the Kim’s didn’t use some of their fuel to get a bonfire going and keep it going!
- Point well taken Glenn..not that I haven’t thought that myself. I was only presenting another question. My experience with that road however, is that it is just as likely to be a good tree place as the other hundred spur roads up there…I prefer getting my tree from the Boy Scout lot myself!
- Re: 53
Please remember that I think the most important result
is learning and not blaming.I understand what you’re saying. I may have more questions
after the report depending upon how thorough and open it
is.I kind of think there is a problem if you “don’t believe it ever crossed the searchers (or managments) minds that we wouldn’t find James alive.” Because at that point, timing was everything.
To be honest, I have been in the beginning stages of
hypothermia, and on Monday, after Kati and the girls were
rescued, I knew that James needed to be found urgently,
with speed both in terms of time and directionally,
if he was going to be found alive.I watched all the press conferences, and there were a lot of reasons, which to me knowing the urgency needed, sounded like excuses, why there weren’t more people down in the canyon searching it with more efficiency and speed. The Undersheriff seemed to speak, “We’ll find him,” ‘if not tomorrow than the next day.’
I really felt that he and operations were not acting
with that urgency that was necessary to potentially find
James Kim alive.I heard on Tuesday there were even people in rafts on the
Rogue river. That did not and does not seem like an efficient search technique to me given the known evidence at the time. How easy is it to look into the woods from
a moving raft?It also sounded like there were personnel on horses, and
snowcat/atv type vehicles who couldn’t go in the canyon
because of that equipment. But when you know he’s most
likely still in the canyon, from all the evidence – why
weren’t these personnel utilized as searchers on foot in
the canyon?And people said it was dangerous in the canyon. But James,
even in his exremely weakened malnourished pre-hypothermic
condtion was able to make so much progress so ‘quickly’ and
not be injured other than by some bruising, and the eventual
exposure and hypothermia.I know that James had more motivation for various reasons to move quickly through the canyon, but it is still hard for me to understand why searchers were trailing him so slowly when they knew he had two days advance, why there weren’t more people in the canyon. When I’m sure SAR staff had talked to Kati enough to hear of his plan to try to get down out of the mountains (to Galice).
I heard it would take searchers a long time to hike into
the canyon. If that’s the case, didn’t they think it was
less likely that James hiked back out of it?These are a lot of the questions I have. I know the
coroner’s estimated guess is that James passed on Monday.But it is still hard for me to understand how he was able
to make so much more progress than searchers, especially
in that short an amount of time. And there was the hot
spot on Monday night that could have been James.I know you probably can’t answer most of my questions. I
will wait.And I know that SAR had the best intentions.
It just seems to me that one lesson that might come from
this is that evidence and potential evidence should have priority over assumptions. Even if that (potential) evidence is from locals and not SAR staff. - 70 – Yes, they will show up even with a certain amount of fresh snow, but if it snowed enough to go from parked in rain to trapped in snow overnight where the car stopped, I wonder how much snow fell in the area of that turn. If it was a bunch, I don’t know how much they could have been able to see tracks. You are right, we weren’t there. Sounds plausibly to me either way, all depending on just how much snow fell at that particular fork area.
I do see what you mean about the point being that it was a typical turn where people get lost and that they only saw tracks going in. Sounds like JoCoSAR is having to hold back a little, so maybe there will be something more on that…
- (74) Lisa my assessment of the situation is someone decided they wanted to be “in charge” and superceded SOP because of the political benefit that was possible.
Someday we will probably find out who that is…
- re 71. Yeah Glenn, me too, but I heard they had trouble collecting wood they could use. I’ve seen people tear the bows off trees and use them, does that really work?
- Yikes! Beer, a saw, the forest, more beer, driving with a car full of kids… hmmm, I suppose that’s one way to do Christmas. I’m ashamed to say that I live in Oregon but have pulled my tree out of a box the past few years…
- 78 – oh, and fire… in the forest. I missed that point. Oy!
- (76) should have included…
superceeded SOP and “normal” roles of people typically in place for this type of operation.
If Sara R’s role was diminished because of this – it will create a demoralizing ripple affect throughout the entire operation…
- Oh man…. are you saying the Kims were looking for a Christmas tree? Just kidding, sorry.
- (77) Bows will burn…create a lot of smoke too. Sap will burn too. Depends on how much snow and ice has collected on the trees.
First priority in that situation is fire and sustainable fire. Protection from cold and in a lot of cases your only protection from wildlife.
That is what surprised me about the trek in the valley – I would think James would have needed fire to keep the bears at bay at night.
JoCoSAR was there any evidence of fire from where James went?
- Wow Lisa, very good questions for sure. I could almost answer every one of them, with at least my knowledge and experience on this search. I would love to go through each and every one of them as soon as I am able. Imagine for a moment how frustrating it is for me to not be able to respond. Please, meet me back here after the 5th and ask these very same questions again.
I am still so surprised at how involved some people are in this case and weren’t even there. It is easy to imagine for someone who lived through it, but I have never seen such interest in an uninvolved party. I guess I too never paid as much attention.
Lisa, you are right for sure about one thing…SAR did have the best intentions. I am glad that nobody is questioning the searchers themselves. The only ones that should have to go through that is the management…that I agree! The searchers in this case, and many others are the most amazing dedicated people you will ever know!
I can point out after reading again, that press conferences are planned events. There is quite a bit of coaching and conversation prior to those events. Please don’t allow yourself to judge the urgency of the search on the tone of the press conferences alone. There was alot that happened behind closed doors that was not seen on camera. Also, the raft question…if James had made it to the river and headed towards Galice, he would assumably be walking along the river, right? Also, there isn’t a road that would drive you right to the mouth of Big Windy Creek…wouldn’t that seem a prudent search method if it was conducted simultaneously with other methods as well?
There were no horses on this search…just another thing that I can confirm…does it make sense that there might be constant road searches by vehicle and ATV 24 hrs/day in case James had walked out of the canyon? Just a “hypothetical..” - 80 – Glenn, I totally get what you are saying. Again, maybe I am overly optimistic and naive, but I really would like to think that even if there was such an issue that could affect morale that somehow it wouldn’t affect how hard they did their jobs, knowing which mattered most. It is a good point to mention.
- (84) I think the feet on the ground would not allow that to affect them. However the chain of command would certainly be affected and any weakness in chain of command directly affects execution on the ground.
- 85 – Yes, very true.
- Glenn – you do know that he burned his tires, right??
I tried to start a bon fire up there not too long ago. I happened to have flares in my pack..now, I had the option of staying in my heated car at the time, so I wasn’t totally motivated..but still, that cold wet frozen green wood doesn’t like to burn!
- OK… partying christmas tree hunting local imbibed too much Sunday afternoon.
- Biting my tongue!!!!!!!!
- (86) Maybe the questions that should be asked…
Was Sara R. allowed to do her job?
and if she was…would the outcome have been any different?
- Sara R.’s job is dynamic..always has been. On most searches, she is all of the roles by herself (just like the search in the same area one week after Kim’s). Would the outcome on this search have been different if she was in charge? One can only wonder. Maybe her job is well enough defined at all. I don’t think that is really what we need to be asking.
I have said before that there are plenty of things that went wrong on this search, many things that will be worked on in the very near future. I don’t think that any of us here in Jo Co would be afraid to give anyone the laundry list of improvements that need to be made. I just think that it would be fair if the correct list be shared. -
- (87) yes I knew that but I am not going to speculate on any tasks that should have done differently. I think they did an amazing job as it was for how long they were out there and the limited resources they had.
- Sorry.
-
- Is that you D.H.? Are you sorry because you can’t tell me if that is you? I don’t have this whole blog etiquitte down yet..
- I wonder, hasn’t Randy said that he is from Jackson Co? They do things very much differently over there. I am curious to hear his response. He didn’t say he was Air 1 did he?
- He has good things to say…about SAR in general.
- re92: uh oh…
Well, I really don’t know how to fix that posting problem. Maybe just start a new reply without replying from button on post box… there’s 2 different reply buttons, try the lower one below the last post. clear as mud. You really need that 1st email they sent you for the link to activate… or sign in to your account if you can… or click on my controls at top of page… trying to help you out here. dam it. - If you mean Randy Jones, he is a volunteer pilot over in Jackson County. I don’t know that I’ve seen him on this blog, though.
- re:97 Air 1 … no… Randy hinted around that and mentioned Air 1, but SAR people seem to not want to reveal themselves for some reason…
- I never got that first email..I have looked in my spam folder too! Oh well, this one is so much more user friendly..thanks to Joe…it’s much like IM.
- I was sorry about my smart aleck #88 post.
- I understand the desire for them to keep their identity to themselves…I was just curious if it was Jones. He helped a lot on this search!
- Thank you so very much JoCoSAR!
That helps answer some questions and I look forward
to potentially asking more on the 5th, if I still have
them.For some reason, I was really worried about this family from the beginning, as if I knew them (but I did not).
And it was very recently that I had been thoroughly
into the stages of hypothermia. So, I could really
relate to James’ condition.I couldn’t help but pay a lot of attention because
I was so concerned. It was actually hard to pay
attention to anything else until he was found.On a lighter note, I know I heard somewhere in the
media there were horses – and I’m sure you know the
truth! Now I just wish I could remember where I heard
that inaccurate reporting from!I know JoCoSAR that hindsight is 20/20. And I know especially under pressure, people and groups of people
can make mistakes.But some of these things were driving me crazy while
the search was going on, and that’s why I look so forward
to hearing the answers. It made me want to contact the
department – but I knew that the public was told not
to. (That’s what my local newscast reported.)I definitely understand that Sara R tried her best as
she knew at the time, and that she had a more limited role
than has been portrayed.Again – I thank you so much. There is relief in hearing
answers. I hope there is relief in giving them.Goodnight ~
- You might have to start over with a new screen name, maybe even different email and watch for that confirmation message to come into your mail box.
- Lisa – if you were ever told not to contact the department, I don’t believe that it came from the department itself. Remember though, it is only a “department” of one person!
To answer your question about horses, there may have been some that showed up on Monday, but I don’t believe that they were ever sent up the mtn. Did you know that one of the key players at BLM is heavily involved in the SO Posse? His name is Jim Roper, what a resource he is! Amazing wealth of knowledge! Nice to have people like that around…
There is some relief in being here, as I mentioned before. Not being able to answer questions is killing me! - Thanks D.H. Changing my identity again may not even be a bad idea….
- JoCoSAR… would you be interested in corporate assistance funds for new warning signs at Bear Camp? I could post at MT saying that anyone wishing to help buy new signs could contact you, but I’d have to have permission from you to say, post your email address. I guess it depends on if you’re in a hurry to get signs up without having to go through red tape for funding and time waiting for signs to be built.
- RE#109: I don’t know, this would get all tied up with your identity, maybe we should wait on signs, etc. until after Jan 5th, no need to jeopardize anything for you.
- I am actually researching into whether SAR could have any participation in the signage issue at all. It is, as you probably know, BLM and USFS property. Our SAR wants to make it their personal mission to make a difference up there, we just aren’t sure how yet. I am sure that many meetings are to come…I will let you know, I just don’t think that time is now. Thank you for the offer though..
- 107 – JoCoSAR, I am glad that there is some relief for you to be able to be here saying what you can. It’s definitely given some different insight. I can’t imagine not being able to speak, so at least this is just enough for you to at least get folks thinking.
- Thanks Maggie! It does help, I guess that’s why I am still here. I get to get back to work tomorrow…I’ve never been so personally driven to prove a point!
- Like I said before, nobody around here wants to talk about it. For the average person on this particular search, we weren’t allowed to grieve for our loss…and it was our loss too…we had to prepare for and search for more missing people up there and then swing right into defensive mode. We can’t wait for it to be over.
- Thank you again to everyone for your conversation over the past two days. I know that you have all been here on this site much longer than me…
I must go and get some sleep now..Merry Christmas!
Hope to talk again soon…goodnight! - I looked for the thing your SAR people were supposed to have signed for Sara, but all I saw online was Christmas stuff today… maybe tomorrow, that’s very nice of them to do that. Honorable. When you show up here 5pm on the 5th, you’re not even going to tell us if this was you posting, are you? Good grief, that sentence didn’t make any sense at all.
- 114 – Well, you can to the right place for people who want to talk about it, that’s certain! This is the only place where I really get to talk about it (though for easier reasons than yours, such as everyone around me has already moved on and isn’t really interested on why I spend hours here…). Your situation would be more rough. I don’t doubt that your sense of loss would have to be pretty strong – if I felt that way and was just reading/watching on TV, anyone actually involved and trying to help had that much more emotion/motivation invested in it. The heaps of blame wouldn’t help any, either, I’d bet.
- Merry Christmas, good night.
- JoCoSAR, indeed this is a very good group here. I’ve followed this case extensively, but mostly posted elsewhere until I saw how great this site and group is.
It is really surprising, as you said, to find that people who had no personal vested interest in the case have gotten so involved. The case has touched the heart of many, and I think most people just want something positive to come from it. I have a son and his family who travel here from out of state fairly often, and I’ve had a few conversations with them since this happened about their priorities in getting someplace, as well as just plain preparedness.
If we can change the way people communicate in these situations, that will be huge. What often happens when there are multiple agencies involved is that the “big boys” want to take over and the communication is almost never good from then on, or else the top management of the smaller agency places constraints on the hapless person who is purportedly in charge (and taking the immediate heat). Either situation would be frustrating and counterproductive.
- JoCoSAR… Below is one of Randy’s posts when searched at MT forums, he is Randy N.
“as a member of jackson county search & rescue, and a member of jackson county mounted search & rescue, we are call 99% on all searches… either we respond with horses, or we respond to search on foot or whatever the need is to be.
for more info on SAR or MSAR, please contact me.
Randy N., EMT-I
jaclson county search & rescue
jackson county mounthed search & rescue” - Does not appear to be Randy Jones.
- Great stuff today!
Thanks so much to JoCoSAR for actively participating, and especially for promising to come back after the SAR report comes out on (or just after?) January 5.
This will be one of the most closely examined SAR efforts in history and whatever the outcome I know everybody has enormous respect for the difficulties and the efforts of so many people who participated in that search.
I’ve also become convinced that this blog comment format is better than a forum style setup. More scrolling here but does not require login to comment, searching is easier (use the browser “find on this page”), and to me it seems easier to follow the conversations.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 12:01 pm –> | Edit - I really appreciate JoCoSAR coming here and talking to
us about our concerns and the situation.It sounds doubtful that the public will really be able to see the report on Jan. 5th, but I am very much looking
forward to asking JoCoSAR the questions I have and more after the investigation is completed.I will be so good to really have a full picture and
complete understanding of what authorities were thinking.I hope there are truly and thoroughly honest in the
investigation.I guess one way to tell will be if there are still some
important questions left unanswered or unaccounted for.JoCoSAR agreed there were mistakes. It will be very interesting to hear what those are.
I think that only thorough and true “honesty” will do
justice to what needs to and can be learned from this
story and this case. - There seems to be a question of precision.
I don’t think the road signs adequately communicate information as to the hazardous nature of the area and certainly a sign that simply said ‘to the coast’ would have helped avoid unknowng but inviting detours. Even the locals use of the term ‘Bear Camp Road’ seems to be an imprecise term for a route that encompasses a number of roads of various practical and political designations. Recall perhaps that in Manhattan the politicians may say ‘Avenue of the Americas’ but New Yorkers say ‘Sixth Avenue’. This can confuse 911 operators whose computer recognizes ‘Sixth’ as referring to sixth street in lower Manhattan.
Obviously, some of the mistakes seem inexplicable when we look back and wonder about what now seems obvious to us. A good deal of it was indeed obvious then too. Yet not acted upon.
I wonder about the signals expert from Edge. He apparently started with a 26 mile circle around a cell tower, then considered only the ‘line of sight’ transmission areas and then overlayed the roads and came up with ‘Bear Camp Road’ but the SAR people seemed somehow to have never gotten beyond the ‘26 mile circle’ thinking.
The FLIR helicopter was available but utilized. This seems strange. One wonders about asset management skills and prioritization of goals. Some of the problem seems to be a lack of ‘team bulletins’ wherein the SAR coordinator summarized the various leads and assignments then being performed. There really never seems to have been anyone who was checking on the precision factor: What are the routes, how inviting are the spurs, how far along did the snowboarder get, exactly which segments of the road had been covered by search crews and which had not. Were searchers reporting their GPS coordinates or giving estimates of their positions? Someone failed to have adequate survival gear in his car. It was a foolish mistake, but it should not have been a fatal one. And rescue personnel have to be held to higher standards. When someone foolishly smokes in bed we don’t let the fireman stroll in with a pamphlet. There is a time for assessing the situation and acting in a competent manner irrespective of how foolish the initial behavior was.
Comment by Fools Gold | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 12:06 pm –> | Edit
- Re: 122
I agree Joe about the format!
- 122 – Joe, I love this format, too. It seems so much easier than threaded forums since references to post numbers seem to work well and it’s all in one place to search (well, now 3 pages, but that’s only because we’ve had a lot to say ). Thank you again. Is it January 5th yet?
- Good morning to all!! I thought I would wake up and it would be the 5th as well…no such luck! Just try to take peace in knowing that those of us involved want this all out too, hell, we were the ones who begged for it to begin with! Now the frusterating part is to let the investigation take its pace. I personally want it to go quickly, however not everyone involved in the investigation has such a strong personal desire for the information to come out…I never have been good at patience! I am more of instant gratification for sure!
- Re: 124
Yes, there are a lot of questions still unanswered.
I agree that the signs on the road are not strong enough,
both in number and message.Road “May Be Blocked” does not equal in common sense,
‘Road Is Blocked,’ unlike the Sheriff’s opinion.Common sense can be local common sense, and it sounds to
me like that is part of the issue.I had a feeling that funding was part of why more wasn’t
done to change the signs.It’s a funding, organizing, commitment, and carry-through
problem. But it’s one that is way past long overdue in being addressed and taken care of more effectively. - That’s interesting Lisa, I have never heard that funding was an issue with correcting the current signage. I have always thought that may sounds more ambiguous than IS! I also never liked that the signs said that Bear Camp Road may be blocked. I think that they changed at least that part last week to say Coastal Route. I don’t think that anywhere on the map says Bear Camp Route?? At least Coastal Route may clue in some others not necessarily paying attention???
- Re: 127
Hi JoCoSar! I can understand why you feel that way.
It will be a relief for sure. And that is the good
part of an independent investigation of a group, and
not just one or a couple individuals. The truth is
harder to deny or evade when there is a group of
people who know it.Good for you to ask for the investigation! I completely
understand why…I think that in general, time will go by quickly!
- 124 – Good points. From everything I’ve heard, though, any problems on the SAR end of things was not because they thought that the Kim’s were “foolish.” Nothing I have read or heard has suggested that at all. In fact, I’ve heard only the opposite – that it didn’t matter why/how the Kim’s got there, just that they needed help. I am with you on finding out more about the timeline and precision.
- Maggie – I learned a long time ago that if we as SAR spent our time judging why someone needed help, we would be spending all of our time judging and not searching/helping! Unfortunately, it isn’t smart, well prepared people that we assist! Those are far and few between. I guess what I mean is, call it job security or whatever you want, but most of the folks that we look for have active warrants, no license, etc. It is not uncommon for us to drive people off of the mtn only to be met at the bottom by a patrol car to arrest them.
- Re: 129
Yes, I’m not sure where I heard about the funding
problem with the signs. At this point after all this
blogging, that might have been someone’s assessment
of some local opinions on government spending, or
something the Sheriff said. (Which at this point,
wouldn’t seem too surprising!)And I know that local opinions vary and are not all
the same on any issue, so I don’t ever want to give
that impression.And you do have a lot of SAR efforts and incidents on
Bear Camp don’t you? Even with some locals who should
according to the Sheriff have use more “common sense”?I suppose that no matter what the signs are, there will
always be some more reckless individuals, but I think
better signage would help to truly deter and warn most people who don’t know the area better. - I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!
- 132 – I hear you loud and clear, JoCoSAR. That has been my exact impression throughout this discussion as well as in other cases. Of all the questions I have about this, that is not even one of them. I don’t doubt for one moment that the SAR folks want to help, no matter how people wind up in trouble.
- Re: 134
Is there anything else besides signage that you
think could be done or improved? Or do you think
that it just happens often that people ‘get in
over their heads’? - I’ll check back in later! I have to go for awhile…
- Just thinking out loud, it’s a shame that someone looking for a Christmas tree didn’t venture down that spur road and incidentally find the Kim’s before that last weekend was over.
- I didn’t realize that in volunteer SAR “all skills are welcomed, we need support teams, cooks, etc.” – as per an SAR poster at MT forum. That’s cool, I didn’t even think about that. So you don’t have to rapel down a cliff to take part in SAR.
- Absolutely not! Who do you think stays at base camp and does paperwork and feeding, etc. I believe that everyone who wants to give is given a chance…
- Your musical instrument skills may even come in handy sometime!!
- tara (817) I’m glad that you were able to draw a useful lesson from the Kims’ misdjugments.
mapper (899), how about figuring out a way to get drivers to actually read the warnings on the ODOT map and on signs along they way? I mean, three signs saying “Road May Be Closed in Snow x Miles Ahead” seen while the snow is falling would seem to be understandable to people of the Kims’ shining brilliance, don’t you think? How about a legend on the map saying, “Hey you! Yeah you, the one with the brains! The rules apply to you, too!”
JoCoSAR (1038), you ask if one can be fired for telling the truth. My response is that when people are fired for telling, it’s far more likely to be that they were fired for telling the truth. Be careful. People who tell the truth are often hated more than anyone else.
JoCoSAR and Maggie (104
isn’t it wonderful that no one will blame SAR and no one will blame the Kims? Why of course not!`We don’t want anyone to be seen as responsible for one death and three close calls. We want everyone to go home feeling good and worrying about nothing. Screw the truth.And by the way, JoCoSAR, it’s a smart move for you to not blame the Kims in this thread, because all these people who piling the sympathy onto you would turn on you instantly if you were to say something like, “The idiots ignored the highway map, breezed past three warning signs and didn’t even bother to fill the gas tank or check to see if they had some foul-weather clothing in the car before they took their babies on the snowy mountain road in the middle of the night.”
No one here wants to hear that. It would interfere with the TV movie and the Kims’ gracious charity fundraising appeals. We wouldn’t want to do that. Not when there’s money to be made.
Comment by PacNWer | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 1:24 pm –> | Edit
- Right… in the USAF I considered myself a trained killer with my clarinet.
- If you can’t go in the field, you could be trained in Managing Search Operations and participate in the management side of search. Most of our searches are run by volunteers. There simply aren’t the resources to pay the entire management team. Even this search had positions filled by volunteers who are unable to go to the field…
- Hey PacNWer..I was just defending you last night. The thread that you started about Emergency Preparedness was awesome..although some weren’t able to stick to topic, but come on now…why do you turn into someone totally different when you come over here?
- Hang in there JoCoSAR.
- Re: #144. That’s cool, I’ll consider it. I would first have to have the guts to consider myself totally dependable however. And commit to it. That would be a big part of it, and one would absolutely have to be prepared to commit.
- Randy the SAR person at MT forum thinks that we have enough government involvement in SAR. He doesn’t want the state run SAR replacing Sheriff responsibility like in Alaska and New Mexico. However, he’s very into a county helping another county.
- #142 – Scrooge is back !!
#145 – THAT is a really good question, and one that more than a few of us have pondered over…he does seemingly turn into someone totally different (Jekyl and Hyde come to mind).
- #148 – Interagency squabbles, power plays and turf wars all are a reality of local governments. I think New Mexico and Alaska overcome a lot of that by having a central authority.
- JoCoSAR, most of the people on this site are playing a particular sort of game. They want to absolve the Kims of responsibility for what happened. Sorry, but that’s a bunch of crapola. If saving lives is the goal, the best way to use the Kim tragedy to save lives is to make it crystal clear that this happened the way it did because of their misjudgments.
Note the plural, misjudgments. This was not a case of a a traveler simply making a wrong turn. There were a series of blunders, which when taken together amount to serious negligence on the part of James and Kati Kim. The result was one life lost and three more almost lost.
That’s the truth. Call it what you will. Cruel, heartless, sociopathatic, what have you. I’ve got a tough hide, I can take it. Look, if I wanted to be popular here I’d cry on cue with the rest of ‘em and ooze toward the nobody’s responsible position.
JoCoSAR, it doesn’t much matter to me if you agree or not, or if you like me or defend me or dump on me. I do think you might want to stand back from all of this for a minute and ask yourself what’s going on. Most of the people are are happy to let anyone off the hook as long as no one tells the truth about the Kims, who got one person killed and almost three more — for absolutely no good reason in the world.
If the so-called “Internet community” would coalesce behind telling the truth about this, and insist that clear warnings about misjudgments be broadcast, some lives would be saved. The Kim tragedy looks very much like a product of get-there-itis. They were so intent on making it to their final destination that night that they abandoned elementary common sense and judgment.
That’s the message to send. Not just in the West Coast media, but at rest stops, on highway signs and on the ODOT map. There ought to be a succinct warning about the dangers of get-there-itis. What caused James Kim’s death was closely related to the same thing that causes people to fall asleep and crash their cars late at night.
In the final analysis, while I’m sure that there’ll be some nitpicking around the edges of the SAR operation I doubt they’ll find the SAR effort culpable. This was “pilot error,” the pilots being the Kims. Their friends and well-wishers don’t want to hear it, because it counteracts the hero story and might even get that TV movie deep-sixed.
- LOL
- Miller time at lunch time.
- (145) JoCoSAR, you will notice a big difference depending on the time of day with that bloke!
wink, wink, nudge, nudge
- I guess I should add “alcoholic” to the list of what you’ll be called if you should want to tell the truth about the Kims. This is a very compassionate crowd.
- … but of course, my “tone” is objectionable
- deleted sentence here
Pac, I’ll say just this and then go back to leaving it be, which is what I should probably do anyway but can’t help myself this one time. I agree that you are right that more can and should be done so that people are more aware not to make the mistakes that the Kim’s made and many of us have even made (maybe not you, but I have – hopefully now I won’t again, so it worked for me). I doubt you’ll hear much of an argument on that. I don’t think that means we need to call them every name in the book and ridicule their decisions in order to get the point across – a widow with 2 small children growing up without a dad should be plenty effective if people are going to listen. Which not everyone will – so I’m grateful that SAR’s stance is not to ask why and just try to help. OK, I’m sure I’ll regret even replying, but now I feel better and don’t even need a drink.
- (155) deleted
Try to be civil or go elsewhere…
BTW…even though you said what we were doing here wouldn’t help anyone, we couldn’t get anything done, yada yada ya…
JoCoSAR acknowledged that this is very helpful and that our efforts through the Internet could be very helpful as well.
- LOL^2
- [deleted]
As for JoCoSAR’s opinion about the usefulness of this forum, all I can say is that I am the ONLY poster in more than 2,000 messages who has come up with any ideas that would save lives in the future.
[deleted]
- I think most of what PacNWer #151 has stated is true to some degree. No I wouldn’t have said it like that in some sentences, but I have been concerned that the public is trying to put a big rap on SAR that may not be deserved. Even one of the sheriffs (which one???) said that much responsibility does belong with the traveler. Someone also said at MT forum that the Kims couldn’t have gotten further away from Bear Camp rd. if they would have tried. That’s not a criticism of Kims, just might have made it even more challenging to find them.
You know, Randy the SAR guy at MT forum has a pretty good point… quit blabbing and start volunteering… you gotta understand that point of view from someone who has worked so hard and so positively in SAR related jobs for a long, long time.
I think we all probably can see that the Sheriffs may need to control their ego instead of crippling the managers below them. What can we do to solve that besides making this SAR state managed?
- (163) deleted
- (163) Are you upset that the Governor likes the wiMax idea? If you had any memory and remembered me from the Cellular 1 days you would know I am not a salesman.
You just show how ignorant you really are about the power of net access…if wiMax were deployed do you think James Kim and his family would have been sitting around playing scrabble…well they might have after they were able to tell SAR where they were.
I have nothing to do with the Kim family and have never absolved James of anything he did…he messed up and he is DEAD.
PacNWer you talk about your great ideas…well get one of them done. Ideas are a dime a dozen – executing and making one a reality is all that matters in life. Poor performers always blame their tools!
- glenn, I’m afraid you’re breaking the California Karma Code here. Better yet, you’re making me laugh.
p.s.: Haven’t broken 85 yet, but if you’d like me to go faster I’d give it a try,
- I also don’t understand why there aren’t more corporate business donations to SAR. Wouln’t this be great PR for a business? Is there some political connection to business that SAR doesn’t want? Donating to SAR would be great support for all the time and risk the SAR volunteers take out of their own lives. Donating to SAR would be so much more worthwhile than some things business spends money on.
- glenn, no way could one person be able to get the media off of its Lost Hero In the Woods story. Not when the smart set is fully invested in the production. Like I’ve been saying, for you this never has been, is not, and never will be about saving anyone’s life. That is not a consideration on your radar screen or that of most commenters here.
We know what happened out there, and why. There was a window of opportunity to tell the truth, and now that window has pretty much closed. So congrats, Internauts! Some people are going to die because you stuck to the hero line rather than tell the truth and advise others not to do what the Kims did.
That IS the message that would have saved lives, and it will NOT be told. Feel good? Hope so! You see, saving lives ain’t always about sitting ’round the cam pfire singing Kumbaya. Sometimes it’s about standing up, pointing your finger and saying, “Don’t be as $%#@&% stupid at those people were or you might die too.”
- RE: #162… Ooops…. PacNWer are you just a glutton for punishment?
- Hey !
The personal insults, baiting, and calling people alcoholics is totally out of line here. Fine to say anything about other’s ideas, but not about them personally unless it relates to the details of the Kim Family Search.
I’ll be deleting comments without notifying people. Numbers will be messed up. Too bad.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:22 pm –> | Edit - NW’r, I don’t remember anybody expressing a ‘Kims not responsible’ view this forum. It was the Oregon State Police spokesman at a press conference who publicly, emphatically declared the Kims not at fault — “they did nothing wrong”.
So why not direct your vehemence OSP direction?
- Well, guess that’s what I get trying to effectively communicate with PacNWer. What I was trying to point out, was that if you look beyond the attitude that for whatever reason he has taken at this post, he has some good ideas. I have also never said that I personally don’t think that the Kim’s mistakes led to their demise. What I did reinstate, was the mission of the SAR team…that’s all.
PacNWer – I could honestly care less if you drink or drive fast…I only tried to direct people to your positive post..that’s all. - PacNWer, please don’t. I’m begging you.
If you don’t quit, it won’t matter, because I’m sure Joe will probably ban you from this forum if you don’t stop. If I were him, I would ban you, sorry to say.
- D.H.
I can tell you that I agree with the corporate donation thing…our group has been desperately seeking a local car dealership to donate a vehicle for search efforts, it seems as though nobody is intereste…wish I could explain why? Citizens donate all the time, not sure why corporations don’t more often?? - “I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 26, 2006″Thanks very much for your insight and comments, JoCoSAR. Since it seems clear that no amount of signage will overcome human hard-headedness, the obvious solution would seem to be to simply gate off the road completely from Galice to Agness every winter.
Like all decisions, it’s a cost-benefit choice. If impassable gates were built on Bear Camp Road and closed off, the locals won’t be able to drive up to prime hunting and tree-cutting lands. But then number of winter-time rescues on that road would GREATLY lessen.
If the locals want to continue with their free access to Federal property (which really belongs to all 300,000,000 of us Americans) throughout the winter, then they will bear the cost and responsibility of having to rescue travelers who take the unsafe road they want kept open.
- The numbers messed up with deleting posts, etc., is a small problem. Not trying to be overly critical of forum construction, but a message board can be had for free, PHP something or other, I forget the brand name of company. It might be something to consider. I would set it up for you if you wish, for free, I’d be happy to do it. I could even donate hosting, I have so many hosting accounts with free forums you wouldn’t believe it. It wouldn’t cost me a thing. That way users can go back in and edit their comments. You could delete comments and other admin functions much more easily.
- [173] …fortunately for this forum you are not Joe. IMO PacNWer has offered some good information. He expresses himself well. You know where he stands. Why not just scroll by if you find what he says disagreeable.
- Joe, f you’re interested in trying a different format, I’d do all the work. Just let me know and email me at surfinwebs@actionnet.net.
- D.H.
Is that the type of posting where identities are known? Or can be found out?? - (16 No one here ever said the Kim’s didn’t bear any responsibility – you seem to keep forgetting that he died – he paid for his mistakes.
Telling people to be better prepared is old news as far as this story goes…you keep bringing it up like it is the only thing that is going to save people. I think most people figure if they are going into the wilderness (and know it) that they should be prepared for several different scenarios.
The fact is…people will keep getting themselves into situations that requires professional help to extract them from it – regardless of how well they prepare. We need to focus on technology, procedures, etc that will enable SAR and non-SAR volunteers, and the families to work together to bring more success to SAR specifically on missions that extend beyond 48 hours.
- Thanks for the link to Kati Kim’s page. Her reviews show her to be an intelligent woman with a sense of humor. I was completely floored by the profile details she has obviously updated since the tragedy.
She describes herself as a “30-year-old widow”
Other details:
”
When I’m Not Yelping…
i’m picking up the piecesThe Last Great Book I Read
first few pages of “through a glass darkly” in the back of a saabMy Last Meal On Earth
anything besides rice baby cereal and snow
”To post these remarks on a public page after what happened, what a lady. I’m impressed.
- RE: 176 by Kip. Kip, are you talking to me? If so, what is your problem with me? You’re being just as disrespectful to me as… well I’ll stop there. – D.H.
- RE. #177 by JoCoSAR, only the administrator could find out identities. After building the board, I would relinquish administrative capabilities to Joe. I guess you’d just have to trust me on that one. Or I could build it on Joe’s hosting somewhere as long as the host offers a message board capability that would work. Then Joe could change the admin password, and change it whenever I worked on it. It’s one of those things about being a web designer, at some point people have to trust you. I cannot build a message board from scratch, the software has to be on the host in the first place. I swear on my Air Force oath that I would not misuse the trust in any way. If more verification of my qualifications are needed, feel free to email me at surfinwebs@actionnet.net.
- Re: Alternative forum: Thanks D.H. but I actually already have a forum software setup at another site I have that uses the Jelsoft platform. I decided early on that this blogging format was much better for several reasons including easier posting and navigation and searching. I know forums well and they are better if the conversation needs to thread out in several directions. However when everybody is focused on a similar topic and it’s important people read the discussion to understand I actually think this “single thread / easy posting” is the way to go.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:44 pm –> | Edit
- Obviously Pac you are not interested in saving lives…at least not unless it fits your description and plan to save lives…you would rather deflect and try to detract others that are volunteering their time to try to do something.
Believe me I have a lot of really fun things that I can do on a daily basis beside dealing with your crap.
Since this is most defintely about saving lives it over-rides the grief the rest of get from trying to deal with you.
Did you ever notice Pac that whenever anyone tries to engage you in a straight conversation you attack…heck you even did it today when JoCoSAR gave you a compliment and defended you – your immediate response was an attack.
Why don’t you stick to the forum where somehow you find a way to be civil? You are not adding anything here.
Wasn’t it a nice couple of days before Pac came back?
- (179) Good assessment thanks for your perspective…I kind of thought that as well but didn’t put it all together like you did.
- JoCoSAR re: Forum anonymity: it depends how you setup the login and registration process and how much information the person puts in their “identity” page and whether they tell the truth.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:47 pm –> | Edit
- Gate the road! many cry. — another step on the road of giving up our freedom for the sake of a little cozyness. seems to be the prevailing mindset these days. ..damnit.
- Give me contact info for your organization and I will try to inlist help for you in the ways that I can. I don’t believe you’d have to reveal identity for me to do that. I could begin immediately.
- JoCoSar Hi, just curious how the locals and the SAR team feel about the cell phone engineers (Fuqua) from Edge Wireless and the private pilot John Rachor? Most of us attribute their efforts with saving three lives and think they are the truest kind of Good Samaritan, and that their success doesn’t detract from the efforts of the SAR volunteers.
Are SAR teams now going to try to assess cell phone records in many cases as part of the investigative portion of a missing persons case? I mean would an ordinary SAR team interface with cell phone companies?
I am still not certain how long it takes the cell company to search its records and find the last ping– whether this is as simple as accessing a credit card receipt and finding the last place it was used. The credit card receipt would show the address in most cases, while the the cell phone info would have to be interpreted by time, distance and terrain, and then topo/terrain maps used for certain situations. So I can see some cell companies not be so happy to donate hours of time in routine cases. CNET had one or two good articles on this technology. Thanks.
Comment by Bamadad | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 2:53 pm –> | Edit
- I’ll need to be leaving shortly to take care of some business. Don’t mistake my absence for a lack of interest.
- (186) I suggested they turn it into a toll road…it will solve all the problems plus create jobs and generate money for SAR.
Crazy idea but it would work. In fact why not have a locator beacon as part of the toll ticket and when you get to the other side you turn it in when you pay your toll…you would also be able to tell where most people get lost and when they did you could find them – immediately.
- (18 Call Detail Records and the switch data is a nightmare to sort through. The towers in the area where the Kim’s were lost are one thing…the towers around a large metro area are a completely different ballgame. You are talking about mountains of data and databases that hold them were not designed for searching.
- re alternative form. #182 from Joe. Well, I just really wanted to contribute in my own way. Plus I believe what I am proposing. But I’ll get over it I guess.
- (192) D.H. I am sure of the protocol regarding this. The call is up to Joe…not sure how appropriate it is to keep peddling an idea that would take something away from this forum if Joe were not involved. Just my two cents…
- re 190 from Glenn. Who would man this toll booth? Who would donate the locator units? Not trying to shut you down on this. Could the public be trusted to return the locators? Hmmmm….
- Joe, you deleted my post, which is fine. It was a mistake on my part to stoop to the low level of my counterpart.
In fairness, though, I feel compelled to point out that my miscue was incited by an individual who has consistently, persistently and abusively engaged in personal insults, baiting, name calling, bitter sarcasm and insensitive put-downs.
- re: 193. Oh, but Joe would be involved Glenn. I said control would be relinquished to him after building. So sorry you see my suggestions as “peddling” or “innappropriate”. Good grief, if you don’t share the wealth here on contributing, this whole idea you have isn’t going to work.
JoCoSAR, if you’re interested in the immediate or long term future, I can do these kind of web development projects for you or any worthy causes too.
- An idea I really liked because it would be cheap and easy would be to leave gates open but the signs would tell people with cell phones (that would be a very high % of drivers)to call a number when they enter, and again when they leave the restricted area.
At it’s cheapest these messages could be handled cheaply and remotely using a basic answering machine and officials would not need to even review those logs until a missing person report came in.
Note that this cheap system would have saved all the time spent looking for the Kims on Highway 38 and 42.
More labor intensive would be a log-in log-out automated system where officials would get a call if the system did not get a logging out from the wilderness, but this would lead to many unneeded searches.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 3:08 pm –> | Edit - Barnadad – You bring up such a good point. I think that issues on this search will change many things about how we search for people. It has been common practice in the past to not start a real ground search for a missing person until we have a “Last Known Point – LKP.” This would be a vehicle, etc. With this case, searchers scoured all of SW Oregon without any further clue where to look! I would imagine that may change..or at least be expected to change. How difficult is it going to be to manage the call volume of people wanting SAR to search an entire region with no clue that someone is even there? What about people who don’t want to be found?
About the cell phone issue. This I just don’t know enough about yet. I have said before that the information given by Edge only narrowed our search area to three counties rather than the entire state. I don’t know how easy that is to obtain either. OSP handled the investigative search when I was involved, so that would be more of a question for them???
SAR holds no ill will towards “outsiders” such as Fuqua or Rachor. In fact, they are volunteers just as SAR is. It is difficult to manage emergent volunteers in any case, we were lucky that didn’t become a huge problem in this case. I know that we had so many offers of help from everywhere….from psychics to people just wanting to clean toilets for us…there comes a point where there is such a thing as “span of control.” This means that if there isn’t enough management coordination, more volunteers on the case can be more of a problem that the case itself! Make sense? - 197 – I love that idea. The only catch would be that the point from which the call would be made would have to still be where there is a cell signal (and that’s a bigger more expensive yet very worthy project).
- 197 -that is a creative solution as well…if people chose to use it for one, and assuming that there was cell coverage (or that one had a cell) at the gate?? I know that in this case in particular, you lose cell coverage shortly after leaving Merlin..long before Bear Camp turnoff…There are also about 6 or so different ways to enter that area from different routes.
- I have talked to Edge since the search. They spent two days erecting a temporary cell tower on Peavine Lookout. This did increase coverage, but not by much…there is no commercial power up there at all! That seems to be the biggest problem. The closest agency type system up there is on Onion Mtn. There is no commercial power up there, and the owners have a really difficult time maintaining that system due to that issue…
- I have heard so many suggestions about solutions..some are almost humorous!! One was to have an “entry station” at the main road, not so much a manned toll booth, but like a park fee site. There would be a statistics sign with a box for “Next of Kin” information..do you think that would get the message accross?? Gee Whiz!
- Glenn and JoCoSAR thanks for info.
Glenn– sounds like the cell records search would only be used in extreme cases since they are take alot of time. I think the long term solution is enhanced 911- and nationwide deployment of low cost/low wattage cell towers.
Of course, none of this overcomes individual common sense and preparation. I hope any “access” gate solution doesn’t prevent enjoyment of this whole area by the local citizens.
JoCoSAR– yes, I understand span of control issues. It’s like drinking from a fire hose- .
- It really seems to me that all this debate with PacNWer
is futile.He’s just going to keep screeching the same lines ad
nauseum.We all know that people make mistakes. And everyone who
has cared or paid any attention to this story, Has
ALREADY LEARNED FROM THE KIMS’ MISTAKES. The Kims
mistakes are OBVIOUS.We don’t smear everyone who has a car accident incessantly,
even when it’s a 16 car/truck pile-up.We don’t crucify the character of every person who falls
asleep with a candle burning and starts an apartment
fire where people may die.What about drunk driving? And all the deaths, of the innocent and the responsible, who die from that each year? That’s a far greater number if you want to save live. Where’s your crusade against all those people PacNWer?
There’s even a lot more issues that kill a lot more people that you should be paying attention to, if that is truly why you care so much about this case.
Humans are fearful – it is natural – we all try to learn from other people’s mistakes when something goes wrong.
James Kim got credit after his mistakes for his heroic
efforts.But we all know we have gotten ourselves into bad
situations at times – not knowing better. It is the
Socratic paradox, from one of the wisest men who ever
lived, Socrates:No man who thinks he knows a better course of action would ever take a worse one.
And if you apply it to your own life. You will see that
it is true. People make mistakes because they truly don’t
know better at the time.People don’t want to make mistakes. They don’t get into
these situation on purpose, or knowing better.You can argue that they do – you can argue that they
should have. That doesn’t make it true. You weren’t there –
you don’t know what they were thinking. You can judge them but there’s ultimately no legitimacy to it because you don’t truly know and you can’t truly prove what their perception of the situation was.Beyond that, it all starts to get a little sick. You take
it too far.We all try to learn from them, without some big negative campaign against specific people and their specific mistakes.
Most importantly, people won’t want to participate in your big negative campaign PacNWer, because it’s kind of sick and deranged with the amount of animosity you have towards these people and this situation.
And PacNWer, if you don’t get this, then you are
truly just an incorrigible waste of time. And I intend to
ignore you quite thoroughly and completely. You have made
your point, too many times over.It exceeded it’s value too many times over. It is ad nauseum
personified. - I didn’t realize there was no/poor coverage at Galice, but the “log in” signs could be in range and locals would just ignore them. Hmmm – could we easily set up a national “check in” call center with a single number and a robust answering system?
No coverage / no cell phone? Perhaps add a pad of paper and waterproof box along with the “Next of Kin” sign JoCo suggested or some other threatening sign that locals can ignore and tourists can fear.
This would not eliminate the problem but it would reduce the number of people lost without much of a trace, and more importantly it would be very *cheap*.
Expensive solutions might be implemented in this case due to media attention and the donation stream, but they won’t get widespread use across the country. It would be nice to find more scalable and cheap solutions to ID the location of missing people earlier rather than later.
Cheap and simple technologies seem to be called for.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 3:46 pm –> | Edit - RE: Censorship
I’m already having regrets about deleting a few comments and editing others because it’s confusing and it’s hard/impossible to be “fair” and impartial anyway. Also time consuming for me to review and try to decide what’s a personal attack and what is legitimate criticism of a person’s IDEA, which is fine by me – that’s the point here in fact.
I won’t be moving this to a forum system because my personal view is that they are harder to navigate and due to login/lost passwords/etc they inhibit discussion you see with this simple to read/simple to comment blog style.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 3:55 pm –> | Edit - D.H. (and everybody) –
Feel free to link back over to the Mailtribune Forum as you see fit. To do that just go to the MT page and cut and paste the URL from the browser into your comment here like this:
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=880 Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 4:10 pm –> | Edit - Thank you Joe! I think it is easy enough for us to scroll past what we feel are personal attacks here. It is also impossible to determine a certain individual’s tolerance to “attacks!” I don’t think that should be your job anyway..This is such an easy forum to navigate, I would hate to lose this opportunity…I will stay here, at least until you kick me off!!
- Thanks JoCoSAR and thanks for more informative input today.
Note that I have not kicked anybody off and don’t have any plans to do that, though I would like people to keep to the story and the ideas rather than the personality stuff.
In fact part of the whole point of the “new” internet is the idea that what seems like pointless or irrelevant information can become very valuable in a different set of circumstances. This is *part* of the reason I think it’s a mistake to do much censorship or editing.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 4:37 pm –> | Edit - I just got the Grants Pass Daily Courier today. Great article on investigation. Also, there was someone looking for the resolution from Jo Co SAR in support of their leader, Sara R. This article mentions that. There is also a good letter to the editer in today’s paper as well. Unfortunately, this paper is not available online, so unless you live here, it may be hard to get a copy?? I would be willing to type it if anyone was interested?
- 210 – JoCoSAR, I think many of us would love to see it. If you’d rather not type it and have a scanner available, I’m sure one of us would be glad to post it somewhere and link to it. I could do that – just let me know. Unless you enjoy typing
- the reporter is going to email the article to me…I should be able to do something with it then…I hate typing on a laptop!
- 212 – Even better! Thank you for sharing it with us when you get it.
- By Jeff Duewel
of the Daily Courier
Josephine County has asked for an independent review of the search for the Kim family, in response to extensive media attention during an ordeal that left James Kim dead and his family stranded for nine days in the mountains west of Grants Pass earlier this month.
Volunteers and the board of directors for Josephine County Search and Rescue made the decision on Friday, said Phil Turnbull, board chairman.
“There’s been an awful lot of attention to it,” said Turnbull, who is also fire chief for the privately-owned Rural/Metro Fire Department. “We’re just not certain our normal internal review would satisfy all the concerns out there. In this case we needed a third party. We wanted something more substantial than the normal review we do of all searches.
“We’re not afraid of it. We’re requesting it.”
Two stories published in the Oregonian newspaper concerning the Kim search were highly critical of the search, calling it “plagued by confusion, full of gaps in communications and failures of leadership.”
The request for the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association review is a response to that negative coverage, Turnbull said.
The OSSA will conduct the review, which will focus on actions of the Sheriff’s Office, and Josephine County employees and volunteers.
Klamath County Sheriff Tim Evinger, chairman of the OSSA Search and Rescue Advisory Council, will oversee the investigation. An initial report is expected by Jan. 5.
A news release from Josephine County said that, should the OSSA review reveal procedural errors or timeliness issues associated with the way the Josephine County Search and Rescue performed their duties, those issues will be made public and corrected to meet OSSA standards.
Evinger said he plans to interview 40 people. Detectives from various sheriff’s departments will assist.
A separate review requested by Gov. Ted Kulongoski last week will focus on actions of people outside the county, including state police, civilians, and other agencies, said Ken Murphy, of the state Office of Emergency Management.
Murphy said he hopes to have the facts and chronology in hand by Jan. 5. After review, a task force will be appointed to review search and rescue approach, and to come up with ideas to improve search and rescue.
The executive board and members of Josephine County Search and Rescue approved a resolution Friday saying they support Sara Rubrecht, Josephine County Emergency Services manager who oversees search activities.
Rubrecht is nearing completion of a timeline of activities that were part of the Kim search.
Kim, 35, of San Francisco, died of hypothermia after trying to walk out and save his stranded family, who became lost on Nov. 25 while driving home from a Northwest vacation.
The Kims, like numerous other ill-advised winter travelers in past years, took Bear Camp Road to get to Gold Beach, but ended up deep in the forest, more than 20 miles down a remote logging road.
The incident has also prompted the U.S. Forest Service and BLM to review signs along roads and consider closures. No action has been taken yet.
o o o
Reach reporter Jeff Duewel at 474-3720 or jduewel@thedailycourier.com - 214 – Very nice, thank you JoCoSAR. This, I think, is great news about the public hopefully getting more of the picture:
“A news release from Josephine County said that, should the OSSA review reveal procedural errors or timeliness issues associated with the way the Josephine County Search and Rescue performed their duties, those issues will be made public and corrected to meet OSSA standards.”
Hopefully once this report and the other are out there can be some peace and the ability to focus on improvements for the future.
- (214) JoCoSAR, that was one of my questions, is it common to have an internal review of each search, successful or unsuccessful?
- We typically have an after action review…quick and dirty really. ORS 401 indicates that we are not required to do a formal critique unless actually requested. That just hasn’t happened very often.
- This definitely sounds like the best way to go in terms of Josephine County issuing a rebuttal to the criticisms. Perhaps what Kulongoski had in mind will be a bit more general – and hopefully still very useful for the future, but since this separate investigation seems to have a more specific focus, I think it sounds like a smart move both for Josephine County to lend more credibly to their challenge of the information we’ve been hearing. Looking toward the future is most important, but if Josephine County SAR has been unduly criticized, I do think it’s just as important for that to come to light as well.
- What is ORS 401?
- Joeduck- I like your idea but I have one concern. Say someone doesnt call to check in or leave a note. Then there’s no search for them? Since you cant be sure they didnt just carelessly pass the check stations you’d still have to search the areas right? Am I understanding that correctly? Seems like it could help but not eliminate the need to search even if no note or call.
- Oregon Revised Statutes link below:
http://www.paperadvantage.org/ORS/401.html#search%20and%20rescue
- 220 – My half-baked idea (and problems I see with it below): If we can have cameras for red-light runners, why not something similar at key spots off of the main road. This takes the responsibility away from people to make a call (assuming they could even get cell coverage) or actually get out of their car to fill out a paper to put in a box (we are drive-thru people on the whole). The tapes could be reviewed when someone is missing, and it should at least tell if they were on the road or turned onto a spur. Even just a few of these in the right places might work.
People would squawk about privacy (probably even me), I’m sure, and I don’t know what kind of cost would be involved, or how you could put this up without unobtrusively but…
- JoCoSAR (170), I’m not an alcoholic, I’ve only been called one on the Internet. As for personal attacks, I haven’t engaged in any. I’ve criticized behavior and ideas, and as a result I’ve been personally attacked. Folks here will do what they’ll do and say what they’ll say.
I have yet to read a single idea, other than my own both here and on the other forum, that if followed would have saved Mr, Kim’s life or that would save any lives in a similar situation in the future. The various suggestions here have either been irrelevant or impractical.
For example, a sign-in sheet. Let’s be honest: The Kims ignored a warning on the map and three along the road, and went there without adequate gasoline or clothing. They obviously didn’t think it would happen to them. So does anyone really believe that these same people would have stopped at a kiosk in the rain and snow and left the names of their next of kin on a notepad?
JoCoSAR, you live in the area. You are familiar with the casual vandalism in the back country. After all, only a week or two after this incident someone burned down a Forest Service tower that included cell equipment. How long would a sign-in sheet last?
Knock yourselves out, but this challenge is in the realm of human behavior. You’ll get the biggest bang from the fewest bucks by working to increase the sense among travelers that they should take cautions seriously.
None of these things ever happen overnight. It’s a boring, dull educational task, and then it’s about sustaining and reinforcing it over time. When I was a kid, hardly anyone used seat belts. Now, hardly anyone doesn’t. It’s about changing traveler behavior, not putting WiMAX in the forest.
If you want to change travelers’ behavior, you must show them the consequences of bad decisions. That’s how successful public health campaigns work. But if you continue to dance around the core issue, then you won’t even have a chance in hell of getting started.
- PacNWer – I mostly agree with you..it is a dull, boring job that I will most likely have the opportunity to work on! I will continue to take all suggestions to the table, crazy or not. Understand, as I mentioned before, the ultimate responsibility for that property is the landowner, BLM and USFS. As we can make suggestions, they will make the decisions! Let’s hope they make the right ones…
- (223) Nobody here ever said you were an alcoholic Pac – YOU SAID THAT.
As for the personal attacks you do it all the time – do we really have to go back and list all the posts that you made personal attacks? You even did it today!
- Pac-
I believe you can get that point across and it does make sense without attacking the kims.
It is a huge PART of the solution.And as far as personal attacks, My wit and intelligence plus $1.50 could buy lots of starbucks coffee.
- 223/225 – For the record, earlier today when I mentioned Miller Time I was not calling YOU an alcoholic. While that line was not deleted, what was deleted from my next post (and maybe this will be, too) was where I clarified that I felt like it was ME that needed a drink. It was intended as tongue in cheek humor. At any rate, voicing any agreement with you Pac about raising awareness to save lives has become about as pointless as I feared it would be. I’m back to done again, which is what I should have done in the first place.
- http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122606_news_missing_family.4a2617f6.html
KGW.com Portland – Same subject as above, Oregon Sheriffs Association review.
- JoCoSar
I have a question. I didnt want to be reduntant so last night I went back and reread most of what you posted yesterday and I didnt see this asked but I apologize if its already been covered. I was wondering (and if you want to wait until the report is out thats fine) about a particular approach to the windy creek drainage. I read that the search started at one end and was slow going until they found james. I wanted to know why there werent teams placed in multiple locations throughout the drainage. Perhaps beginning middle end…
I read that searchers were lowered in by helicopter to where James was to recover him. Wasnt it possible from the beginning to chopper some of those guys in to a location further down the drainage and have three or more teams moving simulateously through the drainage? thanks and I understand if you want to wait.. I was just thinking this was perhaps something I didnt understand about that drainage… - Good questions Tara, I think it may have been asked, a bit differently though. I think that regardless of how it was asked, I am still going to have to defer my answer to Jan. 5th. Hopefully, I will be able to give you all of those details (if they aren’t in the report) after the investigation. I just am trying to be so very careful about my answers and this investigation…I am really counting on an accurate report! Sorry..promise to ask me again?
- Re: 224
JoCoSAR – I wanted to ask you some of the questions regarding this and what we were talking about earlier. You said:
“I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!”
Is there anything else besides signage that you think could be done or improved? Or do you think that it just happens often that people ‘get in over their heads’?
And do you personally believe that more, strongly worded signs in strategic locations would make a difference?
I’m also interested in a rough percentage breakdown of
the types of cases that occur on Bear Camp which require
SAR. - okay I will and thanks. I want to add something about the conversation yesterday. Someone (I think you) mentioned that the SAR operation was slow going on the roads because you werent sure if they had run off the road or what the situation was. I understand that completely. (though I am interested in examining the possibility of the fast approach going down the roads with a slower more methodical search behind..) When I heard the news report the first day (and I have been camped out here ever since-thanks Joe)all I could imagine was them running off the road up there and even if the parents hadnt made it, those babies might have. I couldnt get the image of those babies in car seats waiting to be found out of my head. I told my husband that even if it were a bad enough wreck to incapacite the parents the babies wouldve been in car seats and had a better chance. I was about beside myself thinking about those babies. So I completely get going slow in an effort to really “clear” the road.
I look forward to hearing more about the “fast, slow” approach idea and the “drainage approach”. My technical terms…. - 228 – katu.com is posting the same AP story, so it does sound like it’s getting out a bit.
- 232 – Tara, that does make so much sense having a fast team followed by a more methodical team. JoCoSAR, if you can say, in general is that a method that’s ever used in a search?
- I was also wondering if statewide there are statistics and studies done in areas where there are a lot of SAR incidents. And if there are any task forces or reviews that look for solutions to try to reduce or minimize the need for
and pressure on SAR operations. - http://egov.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
This is what is available to us…looking for more..
The next link is to the company who makes the handbook that we use in Oregon MSO. We call it our “bible.”
Not sure if this is what you were looking for?
- It’s not a personal attack on the Kims to say that their collection of misjudgments added up to serious negligence. And glenn, you didn’t use the word alcoholic but your and Maggie’s intent in messages 153 and 154 was clear.
deleted
- Tara RE: sign in via phone or paper: I think you are right that some people would not use it and of course you’d have to assume a missing person might NOT have used it, but I think one of the biggest advantages is simply forcing people to understand the dangers. The Kims eventually decided to turn around. Making this happen earlier in the process will save lives up there.
PacNWer re:Signs – I do not agree that the current signage is even close to adequate. I’m in the group that says the current signage is directed at locals who know that “Snow Drifts May Block Road” = “Snow will CERTAINLY be making the road impassable for much of the winter even if you have 4WD and there will be icy conditions and dropoffs”.
I think the cheap and ominous signs + check-in system would help put the fear of god into people as well as establishing more data points if a search is needed. It would not be a total solution but it would cost far less than other approaches which I think needs to be a priority even when you are saving lives.
PacNWer: Hey – no credit from you for a totally non-technical approach? I think there are many simple sign-in stations that are not vandalized much. The tab of paper and pen could be in a heavy metal drawer in a small concrete or metal housing – things like this are made for parks and wilderness area check-ins now. I would not expect locals to use this, but I think the Kims would have used it OR it would have helped them with *your* solution which is changed behavior based on more ominous warnings.
The problem with advertising to prevent these things is the cost (to develop and manage the campaign and then pay for media). Also I’m skeptical that even a big ad campaign would reach the key target for Bear Camp problems – people who are not familiar with the roads up there.
But hey, I’m some internet guy to be suggesting paper and pencil here. Technical solutions are cooler and have spin off benefits like I get to blog and upload pictures while rafting the rogue next summer. I say bring on the WIFI and more cell towers ASAP.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 7:35 pm –> | Edit - When asked last week, Georges Kleinbaum (State SAR Coordinator) had no examples of critiques or reviews to look at in the State of Oregon…great help that was!
- (23 maybe you could make the towers out of wood from your pencils.
- joe, I give you an A for effort anyway. Seriously, I do. I think if there are signs about the road being closed in snow and it’s snowing like hell as you drive up that road, as in the Kims’ case, that signage wasn’t the issue. It wouldn’t have mattered what those signs said; I think the Kims would have ignored them.
The key, in my view, is a public education campaign about get-there-itis. It could expand on the warnings not to drive when you’re too tired. It all taps into the same issue, which is the tendency to focus on getting to a destination at the expense of all reason, instinct and common sense.
The Internauts ought to be getting together and asking the states to put warnings on highway maps and at rest stops; asking Rand McNally to put warnings in their atlases; and contacting whoever does those public service announcements and seeing about coming up with a snazzy ad about get-there-itis.
But without nailing that down as the cause of the Kim tragedy, which in turn requires acknowledging their misjudgments as lying at the core of this whole thing, none of this has a chance of getting off the ground.
If Kati Kim wants to save future lives, she’d appear in some of those spots, urging people to avoid pressing on toward their destination without paying due regard to their surroundings and common sense. The only way this is going to work is if you plant a seed of fear back there that causes people to think twice.
I know, I know. Fear is a terrible word. I’m not mellow. I’m a sociopath, blah blah blah. But if the Kims had been appropriately wary of doing what they did, he’d be alive today.
- And you have to do it soon because you have a very small window of opportunity with peoples heightened awareness…
- I don’t usually do this but:
I just had an idea! I was thinking how great it would be if PacNWer would volunteer to be the Official Spokesmodel and “Smokey the Bear” of Personal Responsibility! His ambition and cause – fused into one! And he could fight the forces of evil “Get-there-itis” with extra warm clothing, food and supplies! He could fight off misjudgements and
mistakes with his keen spotting of signs, and making sure he always filled up at the tank before driving into the mountains, and never driving when it was raining or snowing!That would show his devotion!
- I know this is serious… and I feel very seriously about
it.But I couldn’t resist!
- Glenn – dude, they are gonna be HUGE pencils! Then I’ll sneak in and plant a long range broadband Wireless-N WAPs on top of each one with solar panels for power, and we are good to go with the Rogue Rafting blogging! I’m in.
PacNWer – I’m all for more public service spots but viewership is low on those. Big exposure=big money.
However in a very real sense this “public awareness” from the Kim’s saga is happening already and on a very large scale. I know local GPS sales were way up and I’d guess this is true nationally due to coverage. I’ve heard of many people who have changed behavior in response to the Kim’s ordeal with better car prep for trips. As one of 2006’s top stories I think the impact of this tragedy on the public consciousness will be large and effective.
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 8:24 pm –> | Edit - Pac-
Im a little concerned that the assumption that they had “get-there-itis” is being presented as fact.
Im not convinced that it was just about getting to their resort. I really believe it was more about not knowing the area. Ive been exactly where the kims were. My family took a trip to oregon not too long ago. We were traving from roseburg and we were headed to gold beach. We looked at the map and decided to take that route (now I know it as Bear camp route). I convinced my family to take me to cresent city and to see some redwoods. If I hadnt done that we wouldve taken that route also. And believe me, we didnt have get-there-itis. If anything we had tourist-itis. We DIDNT KNOW BETTER.
Educating the public is important. But to have the kims get on a public service announcement as though they did something wrong, in my opinion is strange. I dont think they intentionally did anything wrong.
I know they passed up the signs but they truly may not have thought it would be snowing up there. If it were raining low, I wouldnt have thought it would be snowing. I am not the most experienced traveler and I am not from the area, but isnt that the definition of tourist?
I think its going to have to be a combination of things to make this area safer. - Re: 231
I was wondering JoCoSAR, if you could write about any
of my questions in post 231, because I would really like
to hear your opinion and answers.I could just repost it again, but I don’t want to take
up the extra space.I’d really be interested in hearing your ideas about
problems and solutions… - Hi everyone.
I have a good memory so I dont usually re-read articles. From what I have read, I understand it was raining when the kim’s started their travels into the Bear Camp area. Am I wrong? Don’t feel like looking this up.
Thanks
Comment by mapper | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 8:34 pm –> | Edit
- That what I remember.
- 245 – Maybe it’s a reach, but insurance companies often have safety information in their billing inserts (OK, I don’t get paper statements anymore either, but they do this kind of thing) and in their commercials, even on their websites. If they could be convinced to include something like Pac’s message, addressing some of those good points, and they will be paying for advertising anyway, then it gets out there without more cost. It’s in their best interest, too, which is why they already put safety info out there.
Pac, sincerely my intention was as I stated above as tongue in cheek having myself a drink in frustration. If it appeared otherwise and was offensive, then I do apologize. I’ve not ever called you a name or hinted at one in the past and have no intention of doing so now.
- 248 – Mapper, I can’t remember that for certain and have searched through all of the articles I have, but it does make sense that it may only have been raining when they entered the area since they were able to head to a lower elevation out of snow and into rain (which, sadly, is where they woke up in snow).
- Speaking of personal responsibility cartographers are educated to *communicate* to people, to design maps in a way that everyone can understand. The DOT map is not that. We cartographers have a personal responsibility to make a map that *tells the truth* and does not leave any guess work to the map reader. An intelligent person definitley could and probably has been, many times mislead by that DOT map. It is not clear and to say its clear and was ignored is very upsetting to me because I can professionally say it is NOT clear. It can and should be done better, and that is personal responsibility, a personal responsibility to do our job well because we understand that people make decisions based on what the map is communicating. It is our job to speak to people like they ARE stupid…..its my career to do that. If they dont understand a map, its my fault, not theirs. If I wanted to be a jerk, I would make it hard to understand to make me feel better about how awesomeley intelligent I am compared to the uneducated map reader. Map makers communicate to their audience the same way professional speakers do. They know their audience and tailor the speech to them. A road map should be understandable by anyone capable of getting a driver’s license, and to anyone from out of town.
I assume cartographers in Oregon, ones employed by the DOT or USFS or BLM feel the same way about this as I do. I certaily hope so.
- Re: 248
Hi mapper! That’s what I remember too.
- Maggie,
I am quite certain I read that it was raining when they started. It would also, for a travller especially, be hard to know if it would turn to snow by going up only a few thousand feet. As I have said before, its not like going up to Lake Tahoe. The elevation is fairly modest and especially to a traveller if they don’t even know how elevated it is, as there certainly isn’t much topographic information on the road map.
- Re: 252
You go mapper!
- 254 – I’m agreeing with you, just could only find reference to raining where they stopped.
- Re: 246
I agree tara.
- Maggie, sorry, I didn’t mean that to sound harsh. Its just the more I think about the more I am certain I read that, also just dont have the source.
- Sometimes local newscasters do safety/prevention info
ads. I’ve seen them about the dangers at the coast,
about riding bikes with no helmet, about fire hazard
issues, and more. Maybe that could be an idea for the
safety aspect of the situation. I don’t know how those
ads get started or who pays for them, but it seems to
be a cooperative effort between local news stations and
various agencies involved in those issues.Maybe all the awareness and attention paid to the Kims’ story would make local news stations more interested in making some “when traveling” safety info ads…
- public service announcements – is that the technical
name? - 246 – Tara, I’d have to agree with you there. I like the ideas as general ways that people should actively avoid situations such as the Kim’s, and I think it’s a great message that needs to be out there more, but we don’t know what the Kim’s mindset was each step of the way. At some point I’m sure they were just trying to get out, wherever out was.
260 – PSA’s are a good thing and can be free through TV/radio stations, but sometimes those are the ones that wind up at 3:00AM while the paid ones get a better time slot.
- I think people’s safety awareness was raised by this
story. I also heard that GPS systems were one of the
top 3 bestseller this Christmas.I guess the only potential setback with PSA type ads
would be with the localization of them. It would be
harder to have them everywhere. Especially if they
focused on regional conditions, i.e. mountains, rain,
snow… - Frankly, I feel that the public service announcement has gone through very clearly already and before the Kim’s tragedy (the part about personal responsibility and driving or travelling). We have a whole class devoted to it – driver’s education. At least we have this in Illinois. I agree the Kim’s made mistakes, but they were based on bad information and not get there-itis. They purposefully wanted to take a scenic route.
If I called anyone 3 times to tell them I crossed a state line they would punch me in the face when I got there. (sorry Tara! But these are the people in my life!).
I dont think we need to be so careful it ruins the trip, the family vacation, adventure. So many people have said that the signs are confusing…and I have seen the maps. Everyone knows they need to be careful when driving in the winter, and personal responsibility. It certainly would help if the driver were aware it was going to be winter where they were going (by better signs and maps).
This is not the time for an expensive campaign to tell people what they already know.
- The only reference I have is this media article that states Kati Kim told someone about the rain and snow that night…
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
“At first it was only raining, she told Lee, but snow began falling as they got higher in the mountains.”
- I know that our paper has done them..they are called PSA’s (Public Service Announcements). Jeff Duell has been awesome to us in that respect (Daily Courier). I know that I still get paper insurance bills, but throw all of the inserts away without reading them! I pay all of my bills online now..
Lisa- I believe that I have answered most of your question in 231, I will look back and see if I can find it. The real answer comes down to this…I am still not set on one solution for that series of roadways yet. I am soaking in all of the suggestions here. I will be attending meetings regarding that area in the very near future. I have already been to one with BLM. The frusterating part is that in my meeting with BLM, they were only interested in 34-8-36, because that is their only road in question. The main roadway is FS. Again, politics! I am hoping to convince the Board of County Commissioners to override all of them and do something themselves…highly unlikely for a county about to file for bankruptcy! It may come down to our local SAR to pitch in their own donation monies to pay for a solution??? However, I have not figured out which, if any, solution sounds most feasible yet. Probably a combination of solutions will be best. I am pleased that the current signs have been changed now from “Bear Camp Road may be closed due to snowdrifts” to “Coastal Route may be closed due to snowdrifts.” I still think it should say “IS” closed, but it’s a start!
As I mentioned before, a critique of this magnitude has never been done in Josephine County, let alone on that mountain. This is the most difficult search in that area. I think that the Kims managed to get further away from FS23 than anyone else in history! (not a fact, just a hunch) - Thanks Gayle, thats what I remember. I certainly think that is an important thing to keep in mind people are judging the Kim’s decisions that night.
- Maybe a statewide PSA would be something that the Governor could implement after the report?? Wouldn’t hurt to make a proposal?? I will put that on my list of to-do’s for sure! I am sure that someone thought that Smokey the Bear was a dumb idea in the beginning too?! Funny sidenote: the kid’s show Dora the Explorer has a great little character already..he’s the “map!” Ok, ok, I have small children!!!
- (267) Don’t forget backpack…backpack…
- 263 – Mapper, I agree about not spending lots of money on it, but I do think that even if I knew better, I’ve made some of the same mistakes that could have cost me – reminders can be good. This is why I mentioned the insurance companies who already spend money on “safety” related information (in their best interest) being a great way to send a message perhaps in a more unique way (more money for better “marketing”, etc.) than typical PSAs. I know I’ve gotten information like what should be in my emergency kit from my insurance folks (as well as my electric company), so it wouldn’t be a leap for them to remind me that it can happen to me. I don’t know, maybe it’s more complex than that.
- Maggie,
Yeah, I’m not opposed to PSA’s. I just don’t think that is the critical part in these situations as far as what NEEDS to be done.
- 264 – Nice find, Gayle!
- Here is a link to our Family Emergency Preparedness Handbook..I may be able to talk “the powers that be” into editing it this year to add more on vehicle preparedness?? Last time we updated it, we added evacuation for wildland fires…just a new “flavor of the month!”
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/files/2005bookfinal.pdf
- (272) JoCoSAR you should implement a version of that in wiki style so that people with experience and locals can add their two cents to it.
- Glenn, I haven’t the foggiest how to do something like that..I can certainly give you the raw files and you could help me???? All of this stuff is plagerized anyway, we encourage that. Let me know if that is something that you would be interested in??? Or, you could contact the county Emergency Manager and I am sure that she would get them to you??
- (274) No problem getting that done for you guys. I think it would be a very easy step to help people. We might even be able to get it attached to the bear camp rd wiki that already exists.
Suggestion JoCoSAR if you don’t mind…when you reference a previous post with a response if you could put the post number in parens that would be great…just like I did with this. That helps people keep all the conversation threads straight.
- (274) It would be a good idea to start learning some of this technlogy…just like blogging has helped you some of these other elements are easy to grasp and provide results very quickly.
- I will certainly try..sometimes I can’t remember which response to reference…but I will try…promise! Sorry, I said I was a blogging virgin!! (oops, can’t remember that number either!)
- (277) It will help you later to when you go back to a thread you will be able to follow your response. Either way we figure it out…just wanted to give you a tip to help.
- 241 – PacNWer – you have repeatedly taken the Kim’s to task for various reasons and implied the signs were adequate. Early in my posts, I made the same assertion, but I have since changed my position. Regardless of what one might think of current signage, the public record clearly demonstrates that the signage is woefully inadequate. The Kim’s are the far from the first family to get stuck or lost up on Bear Camp…in fact it is – based on the input from JoCoSar and a host of other locals – an all to common problem. Clearly the current system of warnings is NOT working and needs revision.
- Hey, is everyone asleep in here??
- 206 – Censorship – thank you Joe…will do my utmost going forward to keep on topic and focused.
- 280 – still…….a……..wake……..
- Hi JoCoSAR – I’m checking in and out as usual.
Here’s a link to a story about the Sheriff’s investigation:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122606_news_missing_family.4a2617f6.htmlWhoops – DH posted that earlier… leaving it up anyway
Comment by joeduck | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 11:56 pm –> | Edit - I’ve been checking in less frequently due to heat from my spouse who thinks this forum is close to video poker in its addictiveness (side note: I am not a gambler)…and my kids echoing similar comments. Not relevant, but just wonder if others are getting similar critiques from their significant others ??
- Sure glad that’s getting coverage!!! Thank you, you can remind me all you want!!
- (285) oops, I was referencing (283) Sorry Glenn!!
- (284) Not me…although mine is just glad that I have someone to talk to…he over impressed when I made him read through all of it two nights ago! I am doing actual work on the computer too, so what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him!
- RE: Story obsession criticism – me too Paul!
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 12:11 am –> | Edit
- 287 – we’re glad you have someone to talk to and doubly glad you chose to weigh in here and give us another perspective on all this. You have re-energized the forum, stimulated many great questions, and answered many as well.
You made him read through ALL of it ?? Wow…that’s persistence…
- 288 – so glad to know I am not alone.
- JoCoSAR, what kind of vehicle exactly does your SAR organization need? Specifics please? Aprox cost?
- (291) It might be easier to tell you what we do have?? We are really looking for a 4×4 extra cab pickup (or a few). Jackson County has a great fleet…this is what we have:
1 4×4 Dodge Ram (probably 1980’s) that broke down on search
3 4×4 Bronco 2’s (1980-early 90’s) one doesn’t work, we use it for parts.
1 1992 4×4 Ford F350 pickup to pull our gooseneck trailer with Snowcat
1 92 4×4 Expedition (belongs to Emergency Management)
1 (late 80’s-early 90’s) 4×4 Suburban (belongs to EM)
1 (1960’s) Military deuce and a half (Command Post)
1 old ambulance (dive team)
2 Argos (ATV type things)
4 broke snowmobiles
1 sled boat
1 IRB (Inflatable rescue boat)
1 old tucker snowcat
I think that’s about it… - (291) PS…and a bunch of really cool people!!!
- (292) OK, thanks. Wow, that was fast!
- You’ve got some really “vintage” stuff there!
- (294) well, there isn’t much to remember!!
- (295) as big as their hearts are, we look like the beverly hillbillies! It would be nice, if we had nicer equipment, we wouldn’t have to spend so much time repairing/maintaining. That is all volunteer time you know. All of the money comes from their donations as well. We bought a building with our Title 3 funds (becuase we didn’t have one). Jackson Co bought all new vehicles! It is really sad when they show up with brand new Ford F350’s painted pretty…all brand new equipment…doesn’t help our morale at all!
- Stupid question…. do you need rafting experts familiar with Rogue? I’m not one, but my son in law is, he grew up in Prospect. Me, I rode off road motorcycles for many years… now I hot dog up the hill to the green in my golf cart… pathetic.
- (29 The river program is truly run by our Marine Deputy, Ernie Fields. We only support him. He should be starting a river program soon (was supposed to be in November). You’re son should look into being an associate member on our Swift Water Rescue Team. Applications are online you know..
- OK, thanks for the info.
- (292) Does Jackson county or other counties help you by sharing ATV or Snowmobile riders and machines during searches? Or other equipment, etc?
- Sure, just like this search…if we call, they come assist under a Mutual Aid Agreement.
- I thought that was probably true. That’s good.
- 263 – Mapper: Re: the Kims wanting to take the scenic route, that has been one thing puzzling me. By the time they ate in Roseburg, it was dark with bad weather coming or already there. My only recollection of taking an OR route to the coast was through Elkton, and wild horses wouldn’t have dragged me through there after dark, I wanted to see the scenery, critters alongside the road, etc. Especially with kids.
So unless I had reservations (paid?) at the coast, I would have wanted to wait in Roseburg overnight and go to the coast. The only fly in that scenario was their room reservations, the point of visiting Gold Beach.
269: Maggie: I’m envisioning the Geico Gecko doing a PSA, packing his tiny little car up with necessities, extra gear, supplies, etc., all the while talking his patter about being safe when traveling. It would reach a lot of people and be good PR for Geico. Hope it doesn’t sound disrespectful, I guess my ideas get stranger as it gets later, LOL.
- (304) They did have paid reservations, and even called that evening from near Albany, which was where they last got gas to say that they would be a few hours late to their room.
There has been speculation about whether they actually stopped at Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce and asked for a scenic route or not. Chamber swears they did, Kati swears they did not….hmmmm… - I would imagine the Elkton route to coast is a freeway compared to Bear Camp. I travel the Elkton road between Reedsport and Suthlerland lots, even at night. Pretty good road.
- (306) That’s the way I go to ride my quads at the dunes…it is not even a comparison to Bear Camp Rd.!!!
- Quads at the dunes, that’s something I’ve sorta wanted to do.
- Got to snooze now…get rested for tomorrow..thanks again for another great day of chatter!! Have a good evening! Be back tomorrow…
- (305) Oh for pete’s sake, JoCoSAR! I’ve been wondering where they last got gas for a month! Did the credit card records reveal where they got gas?
- (310) sorry…guess I didn’t hear you ask??
- Yes, they got gas (as shown on the credit card) in Halsey (near Albany) at the Shell station at about 5:45pm I think.
- (312) the “I think” part was only about the timing…
- (312) and to think it only took you 15 minutes after I posted it to read it…hmmm
- I’ve definitely noticed that little discrepancy about Kati saying they didn’t go by C of C, and the Chamber saying that they did go there. But I thought early on Kati DID say they went to Wilsonville C of C for a scenic route & map(scenic in the dark?), and then it seemed like she changed her story. A curious detail, it’s like she didn’t want to seem, uh, er… what’s the right word? Don’t wanna say it for fear lightening will come out of the computer screen.
- I was bound to make somebody mad around here…better to do it just before I leave the forum for the night..I guess I should wait to see if there are any other easy questions that I can answer for you before I go so that you don’t lose anymore sleep??
- D.H. I also wanted to chime in that Highway 38 (Elkton route) and 42 are nothing like Bear Camp Route which is not at all a “regular” type of highway like those.
Thx everybody for staying tuned!
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:30 am –> | Edit - I don’t think D.H. was mad at you JoCoSAR, she just meant she’d not heard about that gas purchase detail until now.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:31 am –> | Edit
- (311) oh… I didn’t ask here. I’ve just been wondering about it all along in relation to how much gas they headed up Bear Camp with. Then out of the blue you mentioned it… I couldn’t believe it. It hasn’t been in the media at all. They just mentioned that they stopped in Roseburg for dinner, nothing about gas. I’m so pathetically curious.
- Well, I know of someone who interviewed her at the hospital and she said that she hadn’t gone there…maybe she did change her story, but not until later..seems all kinda dumb not to admit that, I mean it wasn’t as if nobody would find out that they took a retarded road in retarded weather if she didn’t admit to looking for a scenic route in the middle of the night in the middle of winter!!!!! right?
See, I should go to bed!! - Oh heck no, I wasn’t mad at all… just shocked how that detail I’d been wondering about just popped up like that.
- (31 I know Joe, I was trying to be sarcastic..guess it didn’t work? Wait a minute..did you say that D.H. was a “her?” And all this time….guess that’s the problem with computer chat!
- Sorry about my #310 statement, JoCoSAR. I tend to get a little animated online, just like in “real” life. Unfortunately, you couldn’t tell my expression or anything online. Oops.
- Oh wow, I’ve been busted… yes, I’m a her. See? I couldn’t tell you were being sarcastic either.
- Now the question would be… are you a “her”? Heh, heh, heh. Never mind, don’t answer that.
- JoCoSAR – D.H. already identified herself here as Djdee over at MailTribune Forum. [WAIT – I may have read post 95 wrong up above] But also note you can often tell gender from the discussion (e.g. “my wife said…
and you should keep that in mind to preserve your anonymity.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:37 am –> | Edit - (324) boy do I hate doing that number thing in the beginning…
So, any other dying bits of knowledge (that you think I can share yet) before I leave? - (326) I thought about that…thanks for the reminder! things will be much nicer here next week!
BTW, what part of djdee is obviously female? - (32 Probably not much! Thanks JoCo, see you later. So to speak.
- I’m switching to “JoCo”… I just can’t deal with that JoCoSAR stuff any more.
- Thanks D.H. talk to you tomorrow!
- You can call me whatever you want..want me to officially change to something easier?
- JoCoSAR I may have read post 95 above wrong – I’m not sure that D.H. is Djdee but it seemed “she” was saying she was…
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:47 am –> | Edit
- I posted on a thread over at MT once that revealed I am a woman, but that’s pretty obscure. Not really obvious on my part I don’t think, the gender stuff.
- Oh heavens yes, I am “djdee”, for sure. Another little tidbit, I’m a mobile DJ. My nickname is Dee. Thus, DJDee.
- 333 see Joe, I wasn’t totally crazy!
- D.H. I don’t want to reveal anything you want kept secret but didn’t you mean above to say you were djdee? If not I can delete these notes tonight…
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:51 am –> | Edit
- Oh no it’s fine Joe, don’t worry about it a bit. I don’t care, really.
- 335 Do you live here in Oregon?
- (339) Yes, Newport area.
- 325 Although we don’t need to talk about it, you already know who I am…you know I won’t say until next week…
- (332) Don’t go changin….. la la la. Not on my account, you can probably figure out that JoCo is you, i would think anyway.
- OK, all is swell. JoCoSAR it’s fine not to reference the post number unless it’s needed for the context. Few blog posts, even in blogs much more popular than mine, get over 50 comments so the format issues here are unusual.
Also in my opinion it’s fine to just note what you are addressing with an RE: if that is easier than looking up the previous post.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 1:57 am –> | Edit - ok, enough said. I get complacent here at night, thinking I am just around “friends!” I hate it when I do that..Joe has already reminded me how many people read this post without responding, I just forget….that’s the naive side of me! Sorry!
- (341) I do know? OK. Yeah… I think I do. It’s suspense tho.
- Hey, maybe we could set a record somewhere? How interesting would that be?
- Madeline,
Yes it is odd when you think about the fact it was probably dark by the time they got on the scenic route, and maybe it wasn’t why they took it after all, as they did also say they missed their turn so took this route instead.
Its really not of any consequence to me. Even if they were in a hurry, which could be the case, I still firmly believe the map is unclear, the DOT even admitted to not being sure what to do with the route on its map (the letter to Bob H. on the previous page of comments). Along with the vauge signage its my belief they just figured out they were in trouble too late. I think the fact it was raining and not snowing when they got on the road is another big factor in their decision making. Hindsight is 20/20.
- (344) well, you are around friends in my opinion. But I definitely am not trying to trick you into saying anything… sorry… not meant to get you in trouble, that’s for sure.
- RE: setting a comment record. Ha, it may happen if this keeps up! We’ll certainly hit 3000 comments by next week if not sooner.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 2:02 am –> | Edit
- Good night to all!
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 2:11 am –> | Edit
- Good night Joe!
- […] Kim Search Comments and discussion – click here […]
Pingback by Oregon Wireless Interoperability Network « Joe Duck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 2:14 am –> | Edit
- 284 – Yes, same here… I’m checking this while getting dressed for work, too…
- Sheesh, I go to bed early, and JoCoSAR says where they got gas…
- my findings are that the saab fuel tank at capacity is 301 miles. From hasley to galice without any side jaunts its 169.89 miles. If they didnt stop anywhere else they had a little less than half a tank of gas.
- I wasn’t very clear in my post. I was not comparing the Elkton route to Bear Camp Rd. in any way. My point was simply the scenic value of both routes would best be appreciated in the daytime, and when we drove to the coast on the Elkton route, I did not want to miss the scenery by doing it at night. I wanted my kids to see the elk, etc. (we don’t have many roaming elk in SoCal). I just could never figure out the Kims doing a scenic route of any kind at night, so I thought they probably just wanted to get where they were going and scenery wasn’t the priority. Sorry if the Elkton reference caused confusion.
While not an Oregonian, I did own property in Sutherlin and still have family there, but am no expert on the roads. As I’ve said many times, I am not into piling on the Kims or what they did or didn’t do at all, I just think we naturally look for logic in these situations and keep juggling the pieces of the puzzle trying to make them fit. They never will, because people make decisions based on things we can’t necessarily reconstruct.
- 355 – Tara, thank you for working that out. I was going to, and now I don’t need to. Interesting.
- joe (245) the point isn’t PSAs but rather public education. There are professionals who know how to do such efforts. PSAs are part of a public education campaign, not the whole thing. It starts with a cogent message, and then you figure out the means of dissemination. I’m not a pro at it, but what comes to mind quickly are PSAs, articles in the media, and warnings on maps, in atlases and at highway rest stops.
It really could be an updating of stuff already going on. There are lots of warnings already about driving while you’re tired. The Kims made a related mistake, and in fact being tired may well have been part of it. The underlying issue is the same: People are so intent on getting there that they do foolish and wildly unrealistic things.
The Kim tragedy serves as a vivid example of what can happen when you throw caution to the wind. By using it to update the already long-standing and I would argue pretty effective campaign against driving when you’re too tired, the Kimm tragedy could serve a positive purpose in the long run. But only if couched in terms of driver misjudgment.
As part of this, you Internauts should shift your emphasis away from the entirely ridiculous and even laughable James Kim, Hero of the Woods “meme” (I can spout the jargon, too) toward the long-term public education “meme.” Dare I call it “idea” or “concept?” Nah, let’s use “meme” so, like a Ph.D. candidate, we can make a shopworn idea sound fresh.
Anyway, there is a long history of public education campaigns in this country, and a long history of success with them. Seatbelts. Drunken driving. Child safety seats. Call the gas company before you dig a posthole. You name it, there’s been a mass educational campaign about it.
The problem with mass educational campaigns is that there are dull and take a long time. And in this case, the James Kim, Hero of the Woods “meme” would be the proverbial plaid golf pants at the society wedding. No public education campaign on this one is going to have a ghost of a chance without targeting what got James Kim killed in the woods.
tara (246), you’re right that there’s a chance it wasn’t get-there-itis. But the evidence quite strongly points there, given the multiple ignored warnings plus the Kims having resided in Oregon prior to moving to California. These were not people who took a freak wrong turn.
One thing that should happen soon is for Kati Kim to give a candid interview to a reporter who will ask the questions that need to be asked. There’s no need to be as pointed as me, although I’d love to be the question-asker, but there is a need for a thorough review of the actions and thinking that got them to where they landed that day.
I would be very suprised to be wrong about get-there-itis, i.e., the sunk-cost fallacy, but I can change my mind to fit new facts or a better interpretation, as I did in re-examining the phone call issue with the undersheriff. I think it’s time for Kati Kim to take off the black crepe and give a real interview to a real reporter.
mapper (252), you have to consider the ODOT map in combination with the road signs. The snow closure notice on the map was unambiguous, and so were those big yellow signs. Especially given that it was, ta-da! snowing like hell. Come on, even a pair o’rocket scientists like the Kims could (and I suspect did) figure it out. They simply ignored it because they really wanted to get there.
My mind really could be changed, but the more I think about this the more I believe that virtually nothing in the way of signage would have changed their minds that night. The way to get to people who do stuff like this is to plant the idea in their head that they’re making a classic error.
That’s how seatbelt and child safety seat and drunken driving and driving-while-tired campaigns have succeeded: Not just by individual warnings, but by tapping into a larger safety message that’s already out there.
DH and JoCo (various messages), I see how they got gas in Albany; that they called the resort from there to say that there were running late; and that there’s an ongoing discrepancy in where they got the ODOT map. They obviously should have tanked up again in Roseburg, but there are some other issues and questions.
First is that they missed not one but two chances to go over to the coast on good roads; not just Hwy 42 down south, but Hwy 38 near Cottage Grove. Recall that these people had lived in Eugene for a time; he apparently not for very long, but she for quite a while. This begs the question of whether they had planned on Bear Camp Rd all along because it looked direct on the map.
Also, another poster here claimed to have talked with someone who said that the Kims had been on Bear Camp Rd. prior to that night. JoCo, do you know anything about that? And finally, does anyone know what time they got the gas in Albany?
It’s two hours from there to Roseburg via I-5 but they didn’t get to Roseburg until 8 p.m. It’s a little over an hour from Albany to Portland, where Kati Kim’s college friend said they’d shared “brunch.” I’m wondering how they spent the day. Did they maybe go from brunch over to the guy’s place to smoke a joint, and then lose track of time?
It wouldn’t be the first time in the world something like that has ever happened. Even with young kids in the car and maybe a diaper change needed and some more of the typical parent-child stuff on the road, it doesn’t take from brunch to 8 p.m. to drive from Portland to Roseburg on I-5.
- Pac Person: Why would someone continuously begin making some valid points and then destroy any pretense of credibility by inserting speculation about the Kims being laid up somewhere smoking joints? I guess most of the others have learned to skip over these posts. I just don’t get the fixation with pot, is that a favorite theme?
- Madeleine, I’ve mentioned it twice. It’s not a fixation. I’m just wondering what made ‘em late, and it dawned on me that it might be the same thing that made ‘em careless.
- Its really strange to me you think they were smoking a joint. Where does that idea come from? seriously. As a parent and after reading Katis bog it makes more sense that maybe they went shopping. unless you know something we dont. I find it a stretch to assume when someone is vacationing and it took them longer than expected to get somewhere that they were smoking pot.
- I don’t think they were. I’m wondering.
- Where is Kati’s blog? Does she talk about the ordeal?
- I could wonder if they stoped to wash an elephant. Im not being rude pac, Im trying to figure out where that idea comes from. Its a HUGE stretch unless you have knowledge that perhaps that was a part of their routine. Again, to me, its as far fetched as me suggesting they lost track of time washing an elephant.
- Pac- (364)we seem to have lost track of the link.
- sorry 363
- Without any valid reason for speculating about smoking dope, it just doesn’t make sense. Unless there are any supporting facts or reasons for assuming they smoked pot, why not speculate that they were looking at antiques, taking a nap or looking at real estate prices? Makes about as much sense with no facts to go on.
- 363 – Pac, it’s not a blog but comments and reviews on Yelp.com, a site where people can review local businesses. The links are somewhere above. Mostly she posted something thanking folks for their support (did not mention smoking pot).
- I’m sorry to have offended the Kati-As-Modern-Day-Madonna Society. Lost track of the link, did you? Yeah, and I’m going to sprout wings and fly to Neptune on Thursday. But not before blowing a joint.
- From one of the initial reports on CNET
http://news.com.com/Search+for+missing+CNET+editor+shifting+north/2100-1028_3-6140265.html
Ryan Lee, a longtime friend of the Kims, told the San Francisco Chronicle that he had brunch with the Kims in Portland Saturday. The Kims told their friend they planned to stop by a clothing boutique in Portland before driving to Gold Beach, where they said they had a hotel reservation at the Tu Tu Tun Lodge for Saturday night.
Comment by Ellen | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 10:16 am –> | Edit
- 370 – Thanks Ellen!
- Pac that was uncalled for. Everything is posted above. If you’d READ you would find it. You will also notice that the link posted above ISNT working. I didnt do that. I cant do that. It seems to have been taken down or the link is incorrect. Ill wait for that “change of mind” ability you have. Let me know when your ready to change your opinion of my 365 post
Comment by tara | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 10:20 am –> | Edit
- Okay, it wasa clothing boutique and not the Evil Weed that delayed them. Whew! But wait. Did they smoke a joint at the boutique? Nah.
- (305) Since it was dark I couldn’t see anybody asking for the scenic route directions…unless of course it was some sort of sarcasim…
I don’t see any reason not to believe the Kati…she could have forgotten some of the details definitely not uncommon – traumatic amnesia. Happened to me many years ago and took a couple of years before I could remember a lot of the details…funny thing how your brain works to protect you from thinking about just how close you died!
- From my memory, they didn’t have “brunch” until about 2pm…more like “linner”
- (373) Putz
Oh wait…congratulations Pac you have been upgraded to **** too.
Sorry Joe…you really just need to ban Putz…I mean Pac.
He doesn’t nothing for this forum or your site.
- 374 – Glenn, I wondered about the idea of it being a scenic route, too – not many routes are scenic in the dark. I’m inclined to think it was missed turns and what appeared as a viable alternative on a map that had some warning, but not enough considering, as mapper has pointed out, that it was only raining when they headed that way.
375 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. I wondered about that as well – brunch can cover quite a range of time.
- JoCo (375) what about the report that the Kims had traveled on Bear Camp Rd in the past? That was posted twice on this site but has yet to be verified. If that was their second drive on Bear Camp it would matter.
People shouldn’t get so bent out of shape about my asking if they stopped to smoke a joint. Not a lot different than having a beer or two. Or so they are always telling us. Why such shock ‘n outrage at the question?
- (377) I think we can all agree they made mistakes and made the wrong turn and got on the wrong roads…
JoCoSAR can confirm some of this…it seems like anybody and everybody who has ever gone down those roads has gotten lost at least once but many have found their way out and some were lucky enough to do it in the summer.
Obviously the signs aren’t working, maps are wrong etc…
- (37 putz
- Maggie, the map in question had a box with an arrow pointing to the road. In that box, in red, were the words, “Route Closed in Winter.” In addition the Kims passed not one, not two, but three nice, big yellow signs with snow warnings. And guess what? It was snowing like hell. Why do you insist on making excuses for their gross negligence? She’s 30 years old. He was 35. Ain’t it about time someone grew the hell up?
- (381) putz
- Re: 358…Pac, in the process of doing a word search for the word ‘hero’ on all three pages of this blog I found that the person who most used that word seems to be YOU.
Except in response to the anti-hero campaign, no one on this blog has used the word hero in reference to James Kim since 12/9, page 1, post #246.
You were not the first to show up and post a contrary opinion. On 12/9, page 1, post #269, GhostCat shared their thoughts to the contrary, although in a less acerbic way. GhostCat seems to have felt they made their point and gone away, their last post being page 1, #275 on 12/10, the very next day.
It was after you arrived and began to post on 12/11, page 1, post #400 that the ‘hero’ word was typed bigtime, initially by you and then by others in response to you, and has been ever since.
Others were called heros throughout in this blog… SAR and John Rachor, for example, and continue to be and rightfully so.
YOU are the only one keeping the hero thing going, now into the third page and approximately 2500 posts of this blog!
Congratulations!
- Note for all…winter officially begins December 22.
It was raining while they were traveling…it didn’t start to snow until they reach higher elevations.
Dozens of people have been lost on those roads…
Gate wasn’t closed…
- Speaking of growing up, grown ups should be able to communicate without swearing. Joe, how about just deleting any postings that use swear words? The name calling on Pac’s part and our responses with the name calling is not grown up. I don’t know anything about blogs or webpages or whatever this is, but maybe there is a way for you to have it automatically recognize obscenity words and just delete those posts.
And everyone else, let’s help Joe out, no matter what someone else says, please let’s not respond with personal insults or swearing. We cannot control what others have to say, but we can control our responses, let’s try getting back to civilized, which is why most of us like this forum.
- (383) James Kim does fit the webster definition of the word Hero…on multiple counts. According to the sheriff he was also superhuman. So I guess that makes him a SuperHero!
What putz thinks doesn’t really matter.
- (383) Gayle, that is actually hysterical, good job!
- (385) Believe this blog and forum is mild compared to 98% of the other discussion forums.
We should remember how nice this forum is when Pac is not around.
- (384) glenn, I agree with you. To me winter is about December 22. And it was not snowing like crazy when they started up that road, it was raining like crazy. It would be good to educate the traveling public about mountain weather, I think if you are not from the mountains you don’t realize how fast it can turn. We got stuck in a foot of snow with an 18 foot travel trailer in the mountains in Montana, in JUNE! And we had an extremely close call in Switzerland in September. You do not need to prepare for snow in Illinois in June or September. But in the mountains, it can happen any time. So I don’t think MAY be closed in WINTER is the best wording.
- Re: #364…I could wonder if they stoped to wash an elephant.
Tara, good one, that cracked me up.
It took time to drive to Portland from Seattle that day. They had a late brunch and visited with a friend. That takes time. Judging solely from Kati’s blog, she likes to shop. Also takes time. I can see how time got away from them that day.
- 378 – I have heard no confirmation of them ever being on this road before..that doesn’t mean it’s the gospel, but I would imagine that I would have heard…
The only place I have heard that is here… - (391) Yes another pearl of wisdom from Pac.
- Oh great, we woke up with a big tree leaning on the house and 4 more that need to come down. Gosh I love trees!
- PacNWer – smoking a joint? You want a credible theory ?!? One that people won’t laugh at ??? They live in CA. They had come from Seattle. BOTH states have high sales taxes. Oregon has NO sales tax. There are several factory outlet malls on their route. They have 2 young kids. Christmas is near. THEY WENT SHOPPING !!!
- Wind storm up here on central coast last night, and it’s still not over.
- Hope everybody is listening…if you are from San Fran and own a trendy clothing shop…you must be a pot smoker!!!
- Re: 389… My husband and I drove through the mountain pass by Mt Rainier, can’t recall the name of it, and found snow over a foot deep at those elevations in July. That was a surprise to us and we drove the passes a lot back then!
- You are so intent on degrading their character you blatantly overlook the most PLAUSIBLE explanation and substitute for it one that has NO BASIS IN FACT, nor any reason to suspect it beyond you want to smear them.
- DH- central OR coast? I should call my daughter…
- 220 miles from Halsey to Gold Beach, if that hasn’t been mentioned. So they started Bear Camp with less than a half tank of gas then?
- 381 – All I can say, Pac, is that I’ve made similar decisions on similar roads in the past based on the unknown or what I thought I knew, and I’m fairly intelligent/safe most of the time. I was lucky and lived to tell about it. James Kim wasn’t. People make what turn out to be bad decisions all of the time but rarely because they think something “bad” will happen to them or because they don’t care that someone will die – instead, I think most folks don’t truly realize what the worst case scenario could actually be and tend to believe that it won’t happen to them. You can argue all you want, and maybe you are not completely wrong on some points, but I don’t think you are going to change anyone’s mind. We’ve all thought about it, even read and considered your points during your more civil moments, and it doesn’t sound like many of us buy it that we should sit around and blame the Kim’s and call them the things you’ve called them, no matter how shockingly or over the top you want to state your point for effect. No matter what your motive actually is or what you say it is, it comes across as just wanting us to all join you in trashing the Kim’s – as if that would serve any purpose. Maybe you don’t make mistakes, but even if I might have done some things differently, I “get it,” how their possible lines of thought could have reasonably gone, and I don’t feel the need to “blame” them one bit. Learn from it, sure, absolutely! – there are things I’ve already started doing differently because of their experience. But, no, personally, I don’t think the signs sounded very ominous at all, nor the note on the map. On my own version of the Oregon State Map that I got from the driver’s license folks, it’s there but not all that bold – and it wasn’t winter (OK, technicality there – that one I would give you), and it was raining at first. The signs didn’t say “even though you see rain now, today there will be snow if you keep going” – year-round, the signs have the same generic message that there “may be,” though sometimes we know there also “may not be.” Perhaps the Kim’s thought it was one of those times since it was just raining, afterall. As Mapper mentions, the change in elevation is gradual, so they may not have realized that could be an issue – don’t know, wasn’t there. They made mistakes and by the time they realized it and tried to correct it, they couldn’t. So they stopped for the night instead of continuing to wind further into desperately lost – probably thinking “hey, we’re lost, we’re tired, it’s dark, and after some rest and the benefit of daylight, we can correct this and get the heck out of here with quite a story to tell.” Sounds like a pretty smart decision to me once you look around and realize that you’ve made a mistake. How could they have known they’d be trapped by snow in a place where they deliberately stopped because it was in a lower elevation where it was raining?
Anyway, argue your case all you want, and make it more and more damning and dramatic and shocking – my mind won’t change. Mistakes were made that people should be made aware of to prevent the same situation, and it’s worth getting that out there, but people will still be human and will still need help, and the SAR folks will thankfully not blame them but just try to save them.
- Yes, Newport. It wasn’t at bad as last couple of storms. Trees were probably weakened by previous storms. The wind storms have been hell this year over here.
- 385 – SUSAN – Thank you, our perpetual voice of calm reason in a maelstrom of madness.
- Hey, all this fighting makes it hard to find the other comments… not a mad cristicism, just true. Of course with a tree on my house gives me a bit of perspective.
- (37 Pac did your parents do something horrible to you?
- (403) I disagree
- “Theory helps us to bear our ignorance of facts”…George Santayana
Once the report is out and JoCo is able to answer unanswered questions, we can put all our theorizing to bed, I hope.
- (37 Joco, thanks for confirming that you haven’t heard that they were on Bear Camp before. It was an odd couple of comments by a local, and after I called attention to them and asked him to explain further, he just dissappeared from the board! Will post his info when I remember or find it. (RE: Kims having driven Bear Camp before.)
- Re: 402 Thanks, DH. My daughter’s in Sheridan, another daughter in Portland. I’ve been to Newport. Nice place.
- Re 476 my post on page 2.
Mr. Bob Hollenbeck, Peter Sleeth would like to talk to you about the info in posts #836 & #442. “Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.” Perhaps you could call him or email him at petersleeth@news.oregonian.com
I saw your posts here and emailed Peter, he emailed me back and he seems interested in this info, if you wish to contact him.Peter Sleeth, Reporter
The Oregonian
1320 S.W. Broadway
Portland, Ore. 97201
503.294.4119Comment by D.H. | December 20, 2006
Just for reference purposes, this was my post asking Bob Hollenbeck more about the “driving on Bear Camp before” issue.
- Hi All and JoCoSAR –
I haven’t caught up yet today – I came up with some ideas last night and this morning. At this point they are just ideas.
I was thinking that if you decide to submit a proposal to Kulongoski for a PSA, potentially (hopefully!) linked to a Public Safety Campaign, you could suggest that Kulongoski could be the PSA spokesperson.
Those PSA’s tend to be the most effective when the spokesperson is very well known and/or liked, with a high postion of authority.
And the idea may also appeal to him a lot – to volunteer!
I also came up with a potential Public Safety Campaign slogan:
Travel Safe
It’s the Best Way to Get There
There could be a PSA where Kulongoski is driving, with chosen appropriate talking points about safety and hazards in rain, snow, mountains, at night, etc., about reading maps and signs carefully, about arrival times and considerations, etc.
It might sound like a lot – but a lot can be said in a short time slot. We see/hear it in commercials all the time.
He could stop, open up the back of his vehicle, talk and show his emergency supplies, etc.
Then when arriving at his destination, which could be either a beautiful scenic area or at a house, he could open the car door, say “Travel Safe,” get out of the car, shut the door firmly in a way that created emphasis and completion with the shutting sound, and say “It’s the Best Way to Get There.”
He could then open his arms to his scenic surroundings, or at a house, walk toward the welcoming arms of family or friends.
I thought of various ideas for cartoon type campaigns but I just don’t think most adults woud take them as seriously as reality based campaigns.
Potentially this could even become a national on-going Public Safety Campaign with Governors from each state successively being the spokespersons and discussing
the driving hazards particular to each state.I think Governor’s would like the good PR, and it seems like an appropriate fit for them to do it.
Anyway, those are just ideas…
- By the way, issue in post 410 isn’t as important to me any more. It just surprised me at the time, and I was trying to substantiate it.
- What if you saw a sign that said…
IF IT’S RAINING HERE
IT’S SNOWING UP THEREfollowed by
ROAD MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOW
ROAD AHEAD NEVER PLOWEDor something like that? Would you be as likely to keep going?
- He could just admire the scenic surroundings without
opening up his arms, etc. - 413 – Gayle, that would definitely be less generic and more direct. Simple and effective. I like it!
- I don’t know why I like Oregon so much, the trees are a double edged sword with me. We must have had a dozen trees fall on our house in past 6 years we lived in this location. I feel like cutting them all down around my house.
- This was a letter to the editor from today’s Oregonian:
http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1167184550315430.xml&coll=7
Can any of you with relevant technical knowledge comment on what the author is alleging ?? It could be a huge issue in future cases of lost individuals if his allegation is true.
- I think the signs should say:
“Road Closed For Winter
No Thru Route”
- Re: 413 Maybe add …
IF IT’S RAINING HERE
IT’S SNOWING UP THEREMOUNTAIN ROADS AHEAD
MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOW
NEVER PLOWED
CONTINUE AT YOUR OWN RISK - DH… I loved OR & WA but did not like wild fires or earthquakes, so now I live in MN with bitter winters and tornadoes. ::sigh::
- 419 – Even better, Gayle.
- I love the sign suggestions…
- sounds like you should be the new PR person for the GOV!!
- 417 – I’m not a technical expert, but I do have access to the Edge map from this case…it only narrowed location at 1:30 AM to a 26 mile radius..not close enough to bank on!
- Re: 419
Because I haven’t caught up yet, I may be missing
something – but that would take up too much room
on a sign. The print would have to be small, or
the sign would have to be really, really big! - JoCoSar – Your post 320 – Perhaps it was late at night and you were being careless, but it seems your comments in that post run counter to your stated (and admirable) position of not passing judgement on the wisdom – or lack thereof – of someone who gets lost. Is surprised me.
- JoCoSAR-
Did you see (411) about the PSA/Public Safety Campaign
ideas? I’d be interested in hearing your opinion. - re: 425 The signs for on- and off-ramps, welcome to (insert town/city), etc. are quite large. Dos size really matter?
- (417) Maybe cell transmission tracking is in it’s very early stages and we just lucked out with a good read from the Edge Wireless people. The technology skills are probably progressing quickly, especially with emphasis by Kim search.
- (424) Actually the topology narrowed the direction of the signal from the phone within that 26 mile radius and the obvious road in that narrow band was Bear Camp Road. That is how I understand it. It wasn’t 26 mile radius around the tower…it was from a specific direction and given the elevations there was a narrow path that pointed to Bear Camp Rd…is that correct?
- They should post a sign with skull and crossbones at the beginning of the road and it should state:
This road is unsafe especially between the months of October and April. There are many spur roads that are not properly marked and there is a good chance you will get lost and not found for months.
List of people that have died on this road
That pretty much would tell everyone not to go on the road between Oct and Apr. But I am sure some still would and be missing. Sounds like a fugitives dream…that route.
- (429) The tracking can be fairly accurate. Depends on the technology used and its implementation.
- 428 – Gayle, I’ve seen that much information and more on signs, so I do think it would fit. And the larger the better, anyway. If it was me (and we are all glad that it’s not, I’m sure), it would have Glenn’s proposed skull and crossbones along with your proposed succinct yet powerful message… and then be blindingly neon pink or some atrocious color that stands out even with just light from headlights.
- (426 by Paul) JoCoSAR was just voicing a thought, leave it at that, hopefully. I’m sure his/her overall attitude is to assist all equally, no matter what. JoCo was not expressing anything different than thousands of other people thought, plus I think there was a bit of sarcasm there. I don’t know, not a biggie to me, that’s for sure. I would like JoCo to remain comfortable here, like he/she is among friends, which I sincerely believe to be true… my personal thoughts. You gotta lighten up once in a while when you have such a serious job such as law enforcement. Let’s not make a big deal of it please.
- (431)by Glenn. Yeah, a fugitive’s dream, like Higgenbothem for instance? Different road, same area.
- 433. I think larger is better too… Maybe though two less large signs positioned a little ways apart, each carrying a portion of the message. And the word WARNING on at least one of them, too.
- 426 first – You are right..it was a very candid comment very late at night, it was not specific to Kim’s, more of a frustration of the whole darn thing!! I don’t believe that it was even directed at the Kims, more of the road and the weather..Sorry, I will be better tody!
430/424 – About the ping map. Yes, you are right..the radius was only one sector (1/3) of the tower (wouldn’t that be 120 degrees with three sectors?). That sector was facing the direction of Bear Camp Road. With all of that said, line of site, etc…There were approx 30-50 colored areas that it narrowed it down to. Yes, Bear Camp Rd. had a “splotch” on it, but not precisely on the road or in the area that they were eventually found.
I sure hope that a copy of that map is printed somewhere after the 5th, I think it might clear a lot up! Maybe we could have it posted on the SO website?? Not sure about the laws, etc.. - (431)by Glenn. YES!!! A list of names of people who have died on the road. Extremely effective. It may seem to be distasteful to some I’m sure, but then, death is pretty distasteful, and preventing it would be great.
- I’ve commended her several times for her participation, and continue to, it was just so incongruous with everything that has come before I feel it important to ask. You may well be right, but she should clarify, those are pretty strong comments.
- 438 – I think that I mentioned a statistics sign that SAR wanted to do in the area, maybe all wouldn’t read it, but some might??
- 439 – come on..cut me some slack!! How can I redeem myself for being partly human??
- 417- Where I was going with that post was, are cell phones reliable or not ? The author seems to be stating they are not. The Kim story, and others, seem to suggest they are. Are erroneous readings / coordinates possible ? If so, are they common or rare ? Is there a margin of error ? Could be a crucial issue the next time someone goes missing and a cell phone ping is uncovered.
- 441 – had not seen your 437 when I typed 439…a common problem on the post (you’re typing and someone responds in the interim). You’re a much faster typist than I. Sorry.
- (439) see (437) and (441) I think Paul typed that response before he saw your (437) and therefore during a 10-83 he missed your response.
See JoCoSAR how helpful those parens are.
- 320 “Well, I know of someone who interviewed her at the hospital and she said that she hadn’t gone there…maybe she did change her story, but not until later..seems all kinda dumb not to admit that, I mean it wasn’t as if nobody would find out that they took a retarded road in retarded weather if she didn’t admit to looking for a scenic route in the middle of the night in the middle of winter!!!!! right?”
Wait a minute..I re read this again. I was defending her! I said that the road and the weather were stupid. I don’t think that is a big secret!!!
- (442) I think the issue regarding cellphones is precisely about the “pings”. Many times a ping is recorded in the tower and switch records. Those pings can be helpful in looking for someone’s last known location as far as a cell tower goes.
As for making phone calls…cell phone are just not reliable even in 2006…we still have a long way to go. They have the technology to solve the issues they just don’t deploy it.
You probably have all had a situation where you get a ping on your phone that you have a voicemail but when you try to get your voicemail you cannot get a call through. The voicemail indicator comes from the low level features on the SMS (texting) part of the phone. I think it would be a no-brainer for the phone companies to utilize this layer to provide even simple icons to let a user know they are looking for them, etc…
I think if someone knew that were being looked for and got some positive signal on their phone that someone was working on finding them; it would change their whole decision tree and could save lives in the future.
- (445) Thanks for the clarification…I misread it to when I first read it…
- 445 – I kind of thought that’s how you meant it, but as you know, it can be a little hard without intonation of speaking… I wondered, but it makes sense reading it over a few times and hearing how you meant it.
- Re: 428, 433
Sign size: I think it would be great for the signs
to be as big as possible.However, sign sizes are standardized, and usually
for practical reasons, they like to keep the message
as simple and direct as possible.There is the funding issue about having complex and
elaborate signage – plus there is the fact that it
is a scenic area – and they won’t want to have pink
signs.I also don’t think a skull and crossbones would work
for everyone – maybe people like the Kims – but not
youngsters or adventurers of certain caliber – they
might see it as funny and a “challenge.” - Speaking of cell phones… everyone’s heard of adding an ICE (in case of emergency) listing to their phone books, right?
- got it in mine..
- 449 – Lisa, I was being somewhat facetious. My point was that Gayle’s message about rain here/snow there said much in few words, and was direct yet small enough to fit and still be seen and is much better than a generic sign – those aren’t working. Ominous and direct are good.
- 450 – Yep, me, too. Great idea!
- 452… special signs for special circumstances, that’s all.
- Note to Self: Keep cell phone charged, do not rely on car battery when traveling.
On a related matter, I saw on another site a while ago that one of the TV shows covering the Kim story stated that OnStar would not work where cell phones didn’t work. Since I have it, I’m going to call them and ask, but I was under the impression that OnStar also utilized satellite communications. There are times I can’t get a good telephone call out on Onstar, but I’ve never been anyplace where I was unable to contact the Onstar operator.
- JoCoSAR –
Could you answer my question about (411)?
I put a lot of work into that.
- I think at this point noone would mind pink signs if it worked… scenic or not.
- ok, well everyone is quiet now..although I feel the desire to stay here again all day, I have a job to do. I am going to work on the investigation. I do truly believe (after phone calls this morning), that the report will be done by the 5th. There are 11 jurisdictions working on it from the outside so far. I will be so relieved when I can come back here and talk openly and freely..until then, I am trying so hard to be careful, and it seems to be way too much. I came here with a purpose..to keep your minds open. I think I have done that. There are a lot of positive things happening here, and I am sure many other places too. I am anxious to move on and start working on some of this stuff rather than dwelling on shoulda coulda woulda’s and who’s damn fault all of this is…it doesn’t really matter, does it? Anyway, some of you already know how to contact me on the “outside.” I will continue to respond as much as I can, but the mound of paperwork is calling..
- 457… at least red reflectors on the edges or corners of the sign, maybe.
- 456/411 Lisa – Absolutely! I wasn’t kidding when I said that you should be the Governor’s PR person! As a matter of fact, I already copied it and saved it somewhere I wouldn’t have to sift through all of this to find…I have a working file that way. I promise to follow up!
- Re: 454
People have been complaining about the signage not
being good enough for years! (Remember the editorial
from the local woman who lives on the roads?)For whatever reasons, they have not changed them.
The more elaborate they are, the less likely they
are to be implemented.They try to make sign messages simple so that it’s easier
for people to read them as they’re driving by!Believe me – I want the signage to be improved!
- (455) http://members.shaw.ca/sidewindercharger/ Sidewinder Emergency Cell Phone Charger. Wind up manual way to charge your phone, I got one. Haven’t used it yet.
JoCo, take care. Thanks for everything. Talk to you later.
- Re: 460
Sorry! I didn’t know you were talking to me!
Thanks!
- Wait, uhm, do the new signs need to be in Spanish, too?
j/k, it just popped into my head reading Lisa’s 461. - Why Spanish? James was Korean!
- (465) JoCo…..
- Quidado!!! No Vaya!!!
Or something like that, “Caution, Don’t Go” may be appropriate because there are a lot of spanish speaking only people living in U.S., Oregon and California. However, English is something everyone should speak who lives in this country IMHO. But reality is, they don’t.
- re 465… Spanish because isn’t that the second language in this country? Like I said, just kidding, trying for a lighter comment. Failed, sorry.
- Humor and sarcasm are very difficult on internet aren’t they? The various happy face avatars, etc. are helpful, but I don’t know the codes other than that work on this forum.
- 445 – JoCo – was also reading it the wrong way…lack of intonation and all that…the perils of typing – misinterpretation.
464 – One language and some kind of universal symbol for closure. - Tree guy is coming over to remove tree from house this afternoon… wheeeee!!!!
- p.s. Gayle – I liked your sign idea – I have worked
for state gov’t and I know how “standardized” they
like everything to be. That even may be why more
specific signs haven’t been made up for Bear Camp
yet…I like you!
Re: 460
JoCoSAR –
Also I didn’t mean it to be so much for the Gov,
as for the Public Safety Campaign. I just thought
having him be involved in that way might help with
necessary funding and moving things along – even
more – getting it done.Or maybe it would be better to have someone outside
of politics be spokesperson – I don’t know – just ideas… - Maggie (401) thanks for that post. I agree.
I have already posted about this in the beginning pages, but its been awhile. Pac likes to say that the Kim’s ignored an obvious warning on the map.
I am very pleased to see that most people are in agreement that “winter” is vague. November is hardly winter, as Susan has pointed out, even here in Illinois (we have some pretty cruel winters) November is not typically a harsh winter month. It can snow, but if it was not currently snowing and I was going down the road and saw a sign about snow drifts….well, I wouldn’t be too worried about it unless it had actually been snowing for awhile. As I have also said, the topo information on the DOT map is sparse, and the Kim’s may not have even known how elevated the area was that they were going into. I do not believe they knew it was going to be a terrible snow storm, or if they did know a snow storm was coming, that they were possibly ahead of it, our that it was further to the north. As I have also said, the elevations are around 3-4000 feet. Its not like 10,000 or 11,000 feet where you can be pretty sure you will encounter snow in November. I’m from Illinois, and this seems obvious to me. I have lived near Lake Tahoe though, and I lived down around sea level (near Sacramento) and my friend lived in Nevada City (up around 3-4000 feet). We had a difference in temperatures in the summer, and they would get snow when we would get rain, but the differences were very slim compared to the differecnes between sea level and 10,000 feet. I get the idea that the weather that night, it was a very fine line between rain and snow, but if you were at the lower elevation it would have been very hard to judge that it would be snowing terribly at 3000 or even 5000 feet in November.
Anyway, that is all besides the fact, to my next point.
Pac, I have a masters degree in GIS, a B.S in geography I have formal education in cartography, I went to a school that is one of the last to teach manual cartography. Fairy elves do not make maps and we just have to accept what they give us. Highly educated humans for the most part make maps, however sometimes, since the field has become so technical computer science majors are now making maps that do not have the formal cartography training.
In addition to my education I have worked for the military, FEMA, several municpalities, engineers and a regional planning agency. I have made maps for police, I have done databases for emergency 911 call centers, I have trained Airmen in the Air Force to make maps. I could go on about my qualifications, to say if that ODOT map is as good as it should be, but I am much more interested in hearing about your qualifications to be the judge of that.
Because I can tell you, that if that map were handed into me for a grade (and I am more than qualified to grade maps, as I am now more qualified than most of my cartography teachers were) I would give it a C at best. I am focusing on the Bear Camp area in particular. It has been posted here and I am not going to repost it, someone was even kind enough to do a close up and post a link.
Main concerns. They use a red line for the arrow — that would be fine if they were not also using red lines of the same line weight to signify some other more benign something. Never use red for two different purposes, in the same part of the map, especfially when one purpose is meant to be a warning.
Additionally, there was some pink text or something that did not match the red of the arrow. This detracts the eye and it does not appear coherent, the arrow does not even look like it belongs with the text in the box that contains the warning.
In fact, the red arrow appears so benign I did not notice it the first few times I looked at the map. Therefore, the warning box (that we have already pointed out says, Road closed in winter, is vague at best anyway) appears to be sitting atop an unpaved road. The line is actually the county line but unless you know your counties pretty well (and are really paying attention to the legend of the map) your not going to notice this warning is actually pointing at the road in question.
There is also very little detail on the road map, as it should be, it is a road map. But that is federal land. They should take bear camp road off the ODOT map all together or they have to put more detail in that section to show all of the roads, with the correct names, better warnings, and more topo info, and perhaps an inset that says to get a more detailed map contact USFS. Or they need to leave it off. Please refer to the second page for the letter from ODOT to Bob, as his backs up further what I am trying to say.
If they insist on leaving it how it is, simple changes could be made to clear up confusion. Change the wording of the warning, and the color of the warning and make the arrow a larger line weight, make the colors of the warning text and arrow the same, and different than the contours next to it. (they appear to be contours, red is a stupid color for contours, but I dont know that is what they are as I was looking at a close up of the map and there was no legend, regardless of the legend, its bad practice). They could also put a note that travellers should contact USFS for a detailed map of the area, and like Glenn said, should make it clear that wintere means Oct – April. There is more but I am tired of writing about this.
Pac, if you still dont get what I am trying to say, if you think the map is perfectly fine the way it is, please I am interested in your education, professional experience, and government experience. I do recall you saying you have little to none in the SAR department. What is it you do anyway? Because you trying to tell me that a map is fine the way it is, is like me trying to give you advice on how to be insulting.
- 473 / Mapper: all good, but esp love the last half of your last sentence! :-)…very well put.
- Mapper, that was interesting, informative and very clear, lots of good info. I love to peruse old maps and look for former roads, so it’s especially interesting to me to hear more about how maps are created. Thanks!
- Re: 473
go mapper, go!
Re: 475
Madeleine – I had wanted to say earlier that I really
loved your Geico ad idea – and I bet they would be
interested! - Almost halfway from 2000 to 3000!
- Appreciate the updates and comments from all. The sign suggestions are interesting. But in the end, no signs will work as well as a closed gate across the road. The road should be closed completely from late fall to late spring. If the only inconvenience is that locals have a harder time reaching their hunting grounds and getting free Christmas trees, too bad.
JoCo, is there anybody other than locals who would be affected by Bear Camp Road being closed all winter? I can’t imagine any logging goes on, or any hiking or rafting of any kind. Would the authority to gate off BCR lie completely with the USFS & BLM? If so, one would imagine they would have to give priority to the safety of travelers over the recreational opportunities of locals.
JoCo, it is great that you have joined us here and shared your thoughts and knowledge. We were all ready to crucify Sara R. for ignoring the news of car tracks on the road to Black Bar Lodge until you clarified that car tracks were all over many of the logging roads.
Once January 5 has passed, I will be really interested to read what you have to share. Two main issues that come to mind are:
-How did word get spread to the various agencies working the SAR that the road to Black Bar Lodge was clear? If Sara heard from the owner that he saw tire tracks on his foray, but discounted them as insignificant since tracks were everywhere, would she now have the integrity to admit that incorrect conclusion?
-How many more people must die on the logging roads in that area before they are simply gated off all winter? The cost-benefit analysis of that decision seems to make it a no-brainer. Can you shed any light on any reason for that road to remain open in winter, other than as access to free game/tree hunting grounds for locals?Thanks, and thanks to JoeDuck for keeping this going.
- And one other issue I’d like to read about after Jan 5:
BLM says they were supposed to gate off that road, but didn’t.
Others on this board have said that road is NEVER gated off.
Who is right?
- 473 – Mapper, thank you for lending an educated and experienced explanation as to why it is that when my novice, end-user eye looked at it: “that map don’t work.” I didn’t quite know or think of all the reasons why or what exactly needed to be done, but I just knew that the State map I got sure didn’t lend the sense of caution that the area deserves if it’s going to be included on the map. Thank you very much for your insight. Maybe we could get you to make the next round of maps for Oregon…
- 479 – Several of the locals who could hopefully shed more light on that question (Bob Hollenbeck, Spencer), have not posted in some time, not sure why. Have seen numerous posts both here and at Mail Trib that forcefully state it has NEVER been closed and locked.
- Wow, Mapper, thanks for sharing all that. Very interesting.
- re: Closed Gates & Cost/Benefit…
‘Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.’ — unknown
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” — William Pitt (1759-1806)
- @Lisa — your email… a most beautiful expression …deeply, I thank you -K.
- (478 Bill) “The sign suggestions are interesting. But in the end, no signs will work as well as a closed gate across the road.”
I tend to agree with your statement, Bill. The locals will either simply drive around the gates or find another road to get in, whereas the out of state or unfamiliar travelers would just turn around right there.
Of course I’m not a local to that area who needs to get in there, so I might be wrong… but I don’t think so.
Gates (locked or unlocked) plus ROAD CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC signs would prevent a lot of SAR search missions in that area… I would think substatially.
The gates should be early on Bear Camp road, not as far in as the Bear Camp/Spur Road junction. As close to Galice and Gold Beach as possible, so that travelers don’t feel like “oh well, we came this far, we might as well try to get through”. The FS, BLM, and Sheriff could take turns checking the gates a couple times a week, or whenever was deemed appropriate.
Maybe local SAR volunteers would want to check the gates, since in the end it would save them a much longer trip into the wilderness on future searches.
On freeway signs post ROAD CLOSED during appropriate times of year … also ROAD CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC all year for all I care.
- Thanks everyone. I also didn’t want to beat a dead horse by posting about the map again, as I did mention my concerns about the map earlier, but not in great detail. I did just look it up again
http://egov.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/docs/statemaps/Oregon_State_Map_2005_front.pdf
notice the liberal use of the color red in the entire map and in the legend.
- I still like the Skull and Crossbones idea, I think that’s pretty cool. Kosher or not, it would get your attention and get the point across.
On a more serious note, on the Skull and Crossbones sign could list HOW MANY people have died getting lost on Bear Camp Rd. You wouldn’t have to and really shouldn’t post their names on the sign. Too painful for the families I think, unless families decide they WANT the names there to prevent further tragedies.
It may be possible to post and hint that it is illegal to venture into the area unprepared. There may be some thrill seekers in the future who just want to go in and see where it all happened… having an inexperienced idiot going down Big Windy Creek just for kicks is not what you want to have happen.
- By the way, the tree guys came and are taking down about 6 trees around our house tomorrow. Just thot I’d update. Looks like there was no damage to house. Lucky again for the 12th time.
- You could also post on the “how many have died” sign how many searches have been conducted on that road in last several years.
- From my understanding however, I believe the road is gated off and closed right now because of slides, until the spring. So that’s good. But I was thinking of policies in the future that would apply permanently or certain times of year.
- re: 483
Safety doesn’t happen by accident. ~ Author UnknownBetter safe than sorry. ~ Everyone’s Mom
- 491 con’t…
- Keeping the road open as much as possible is important for reasons other than locals going Christmas tree cutting and deer hunting. Guided float trips on the Rogue are an important business for the local economy and that road is the most direct route back to Grants Pass from the take-out at Foster Bar (near Agness). The Rogue is well known for its scenic beauty and whitewater, but it is also a popular sports-fishery river. There ARE alternate routes that are used once the road gets snowed in, but they take considerably more time, are far less direct, and a portion of those increased costs are born by commercial outfitters.
I am ambivelent about closing it altogether. I think that should be a decision made with considerable input from the people who live in the area who would be most affected. Their economy has suffered dramatically from the curtailment of logging, the last thing they need is another hit to the pocketbook from folks who don’t live there and who would not bare the brunt of the ill effects from such a decision. If you mandate a process that does not have local support & buy-in it will be no time at all before whatever you put up gets pulled out of the asphalt and dumped over an embankment.
On a side note, the BLM has wanted to reroute portions of that road for years because it is so prone to slides that close it with alarming regularity, but there is never any money to do it.
- Joe, I just noticed that there is now a sidebar with recent comments – that’s cool (At least I think it’s new – if it’s been there all the long, I’m just oblivious).
- Re: 488 I bet that’s a huge relief to you, DH. =D>
- 493 – Paul, once again, you put my thoughts into words on the gate/no gate question. I’m convinced that there has to be some middle ground where it’s available to locals that want it “open” for understandable reasons but also somehow painstakingly clear to all others that it’s definitely “closed” certain times of the year.
- 496. – Going back to someone’s idea of a half gate that would allow locals to pass through but have a sign…
NO THRU TRAFFIC
OCTOBER-APRIL
??? - (473) Mapper, loved the last line. Perfect.
- 497 – Gayle, yes, something along those lines is my thought if it would work – and maybe more good/unique wording from you that has the same feeling as your rain here/snow there phrase that I’m so loving (I keep saying it, but gosh that was clever and simple and really paints a picture).
- 499. Thank you, Maggie
- #493Paul – “If you mandate a process that does not have local support & buy-in it will be no time at all before whatever you put up gets pulled out of the asphalt and dumped over an embankment.”
How about “CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC” with an unlocked gate that can simply be opened to drive through for local traffic, and closed again after you drive through? This law of the land goes on in eastern Oregon all the time. Open gate, go thru, close gate, go on your way.
- Of course in eastern oregon it has a lot to do with cattle and wildlife control. Different situation, same technique.
- 501 – D.H. I like your idea, but I always wonder whether people will actually close the gate behind them. Someone has mentioned a gate that automatically shuts behind you, but I have no idea how simple/cheap it would be – same concept if it could be done, though.
- I bet it could be done alot cheaper than a SAR operation.
- 504 – Very true, and with much less time and effort, too…
- I think if I were to present that idea to a decision committee I’d come armed with the total cost of the previous 5 years in SAR operations. Might really be telling and would void any “its too expensive” arguments.
- DH, I like your idea too. Someone earlier presented a gate idea, weighted somehow to self-close.
- 501/503 – seems reasonable to me…am sure there’s some way to insure it will close, just need a gate engineer…some kind of spring loaded set-up would work.
- re503Maggie: Well, put yet another big sign up or add to a sign… DON’T RISK LIVES, CLOSE THE GATE BEHIND YOU. Nothing is foolproof anyway, so it probably gets left open sometimes. All you can do is the best you can do.
- Several of my best friends are engineers. You put something like this in front of them and they just get giddy with the excitement of all the various wonderously clever solutions they can come up with.
- Spring-loading is interesting, but when does it close? That’s beyond me. If it’s affordable and workable, cool. But it has to be tough to discourage vandalism to an expensive system.
- re 510-511: Guess it could be affordable AND clever. Why not? Worth a try.
- About the locals again… I’m sure they’d be happiest with changing nothing for total access. But I’m just as sure they’re getting tired of all the rescues going on up there, hooplah generated by Kim search, etc. Besides, this reflects on all of Oregon, not just locally.
- RE: Sidebar comments – yes Maggie I just added that sidebar which shows the last few comments.
Bad news from China as they found the body of one of those missing climbers: Some of you here were also following that story: https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/mountain-climbers-lost-in-china/
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 4:36 pm –> | Edit - 514 – Joe, that’s just awful. I’d heard they were finally starting to get some better clues. Been a tough couple of months for lots of folks.
- STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT THEY SAY!!!
Translation, while Kim tragedy is still fresh in public’s minds, Public Service Announcements and Word of Mouth to encourage travel and emergency preparedness should be emphasized now, when it is most effective. While people are still horrified that it could also have happened to them.
So at the very least, we can all make it a point to have a meeting with or make a phone call to talk with our families about:
When to just call it a night and stay in a motel instead of falling asleep at the wheel, or driving while our judgement is impaired by fatigue. Losing your money missing a motel reservation or missing another appointment is not worth risking your life. Our fast paced society makes this difficult.
Not taking dubious back country or logging road short cuts, especially at night and in stormy conditions, and especially in winter.
Consulting the locals about road conditions in their area.
Stocking our vehicle with emergency supplies.
Not overestimating what you and your vehicle are capable of.
Filling your gas tank at appropriate times, don’t risk running low.
Don’t overschedule your vacation time.
And probably more…….
It’s the very least we can do, but if we all do it, then the message will have been successfully received.
- (476) Thanks, Lisa, I kind of like the Geico idea, too. I cannot tell whether certain TV spots are ads or PSAs, i.e. oil companies talking about the environment. Either way, Geico could do well for themselves just doing an educational ad starring the gecko. He’s not too overbearing and I don’t think he’s irritating to people.
- 517 – That was exactly my point about the insurance companies in general as a possible messenger – they have money that they already spend on advertising, and it’s in their best interest. Win-Win. They have a better budget to pull off something that’s less likely to be one of those cheesy PSA’s that run for free in the middle of the night – don’t get me wrong, it’s not that those don’t mean well, but more money can allow more creativity and a better time slot. The Geico Gecko is an awesome idea because he’s a “character” that’s already out there. Even if any of the insurance companies could be convinced to put the info out there, they could “market” the concept well due to their resources and vested interest.
- D.H. (516) I do think awareness of travel safety is happening from the Kim saga. If you actually could do a calculation of “lives saved” by extra caution from all the media attention I’m pretty confident you would find that the Kim saga actually saved many lives from all the attention it got. But maybe even more attention is needed.
However note that if we use PSAs for travel safety we cannot use that time slot for for things like DUI, suicides, firearm safety. Those things would probably get a much bigger return on the spot in terms of “lives saved” since they kill tens of thousands per year.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 5:16 pm –> | Edit - 518 – That’s a very good point, Joe. If insurance companies were including it as part of their slant on their paid commercials that they already run, it wouldn’t need to take away from those PSAs that I agree probably do save many, many more lives.
Maybe it’s too morbid/heavy with this wording, but this just came to me, so I’ll toss it out there. Be safe (safety messages presented creatively here). “We’ll be there for your family, but they’d rather have you.” Sorry if that’s too cringe-inducing. It’s kind of like that car commercial that came out this holiday that showed a little girl singing Christmas songs and the ad said something about cars and safety and picking theirs because of protecting what you already have – point is, it made an impact because it was well done and made me think kids need to be in safe cars with good tires/brakes, etc. Not sure if that made as much sense typed out as it did in my head, but I think it’s an idea since they are already out there advertising anyway and want us to be safe in general (perhaps for different reasons).
- 519Joe: Joe, I think you have a much better prioritized list of things that need done than I do, expecially on a global scale. I’m thinking much more on a specific and local scale at this point. So you’re right that news organizations etc. do have to prioritize. But NOW is the time to capitalize on the Kim tragedy. I’m not really thinking in an ongoing mode right now, just in this instance concentrating on the job at hand with public awareness and SAR in Oregon.
- Maggie – I like that tag line !
D.H. Good points – we really we are talking local here not global, and even I’d say that whether it is perfectly rational or not you should help a neighbor before helping somebody across the globe. Well, unless it’s THAT neighbor
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 6:05 pm –> | Edit - OK, Joe. Share the tag code for the smilies…
- I know 3 of them, but not that huge smilie one.
- re519Joe: “I do think awareness of travel safety is happening from the Kim saga. If you actually could do a calculation of “lives saved” by extra caution from all the media attention I’m pretty confident you would find that the Kim saga actually saved many lives from all the attention it got.”
Yes, huge benefits in public awareness have already happened from the Kim tragedy. So that’s one good thing that has come out of the tragedy, actually many good things, many lives saved. No doubt.
- D.H. Ha, I’m almost scared to cut this crowd loose but here is the link to a LOT of smilies that are supported within the comments: http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 6:24 pm –> | Edit - I’ve poosted at the Mail-Tribune forums, but it seems to have died down over there. I have an idea for warning travelers. Back in Galice, where the road starts, they could put a stop light in that won’t turn green until another sign, an electronic message sign, flashes a warning not to go that way. Sensors in the road could be used to know when someone is waiting at the light and ensure the message is displayed. Any message can be programmed in, including some of the ideas alreeady posted here. Just an idea, probably dumb, but I felt like posting it anyways.
Comment by dkf747 | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 6:40 pm –> | Edit
- Ah, Thanks Joe! I looked for this and couldn’t find it earlier today. Yahoo has one with a little cowboy hat that’s cute.
- (527) They should show the faces of those who have died on the road if they are going to have an electronic sign. A memorial to save other lives
- 529. Glenn, that sounds expensive. What if they were to create a road-side alcove, a memorial to those who lost their lives on the mountain roads in winter, lighted with a solar lamp of some sort?
- (530) How expensive is one more life?
Point is…no sign is going to work unless people get a very clear picture that they could lose their life and others have.
A lot of what is being proposed is just another version of what exists now. The point is not being made.
People need to understand they could very well die if they travel on this road from Oct to Apr.
Either that or close the road with a locked gate.
- 527 – dkf747, What I like most about your idea is that it can be changed as needed, probably even remotely, to match actual conditions at that time.
Oh, boy, Joe – look out, a smiley can be worth a thousand words
- They should put it to vote and get the money from a tax increase. Be interesting to see how many local people still want to have access to the local road if they had to pay for the proper protection from it…
I know it is unpopular but I haven’t seen dying winning any popularity contests either.
If they want cheap…then gate and lock the road. Locals can go to the local tackle shop and buy a permit for the day. It gives them access to the lock – after they done they have to re-lock the gate and turn in the permit.
Something more than signs or a half-gate needs to be done if people are really interested in saving lives.
- 533 – Glenn, in addition to getting access to the lock, someone would know they were up there, possibly even which gate, in case they don’t make it back.
- Oh no…
Please. We don’t want cameras in remote areas. First of all, we go to remote areas to get away from intrusive governmental surveillance and if you’ve ever been in a rural area you’ve probably seen that just about every metal sign is pock marked with bullet holes, so what do you think would be happening to those (censored) cameras?As to SAR skills: Yes, indeed. Any skills can be utilized. The man who handles the data links doesn’t have to know anything about rock climbing. Radio hams, portable kitchens, portable bunks, xerox machines, gasoline tankers, … it can take a lot.
As to ‘mistakes’. Sure he made a mistake. So what? Do we make some quick assessment and say ‘he went ‘out of bounds’ while skiing so don’t search’? Do we say ‘he went bungee jumping but measured the rope incorrectly so don’t call an ambulance’? Thats the whole idea of forcing the ER people to attend to their patient’s medical needs and not lecture them on drunk driving. The lecture comes later.
- re526Joe: Thanks for the Smilies Joe!
- I don’t know Joe…giving the noobies smileys…what’s next? javascript?
- re527, dkf747: that electronic sign in Galice sounds great to me! Not a lot of threat of vandalism in Galice, I would hope. Same at Golf Beach end. It will look like a lot of todo over a scragly road like Bear Camp but whatever works.
- “First of all, we go to remote areas to get away from intrusive governmental surveillance”
Yikes Fools Gold – I hope you also include peace and quiet on that list of wilderness priorities!
I actually love the idea of web cams in remote spots because it allows people out of the area to get a feel for things and also makes it relatively cheap to keep tabs on trouble spots.
I’m going to check on something regarding this. The Galice Store is very near the intersection of Galice Road and the BLM road that connects with Bear Camp Road. I think the Resort may have internet which means you might be able to web cam that intersection with a WIFI Antenna and some fairly cheap equipment. Would need permission from ODOT and perhaps BLM and USFS which is not a small task.
Several good points by Glenn and Maggie above and the roadside memorial is actually well within budget and bounds and would be less likely to get vandalized, though it would probably not fly politically.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 7:42 pm –> | Edit - Joe, hmmmm…. how can you make a smilie bigger?
- D.H. I knew you’d be dangerous with all those smilies! I think the big smile is you mean is colon D
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 7:45 pm –> | Edit
- Off to Table Tennis – I’ll look forward to the discussion when I get back though I think we may have lost JoCoSAR until after the investigation, and I certainly understand how JoCoSAR cannot comment about specifics until after that is done.
Comment by joeduck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 7:48 pm –> | Edit
- I sure wish Bob Hollenbeck would come back and post
more. It was great to have a knowledgable and caring
local involved. I wonder if he wants to avoid the
potential complications of the ‘what he thought a
family member said to him about them traveling Bear
Camp issue’. He could just refuse to comment about
it any further if he doesn’t want to get involved
that way…I liked his suggestion of a seriously mounted gate
starting November 1 with stronger signs saying:
“ROAD CLOSED FOR WINTER
NO THRU ROUTE.”At 8 a.m. Sunday, Dec. 3, Rubrecht, Powers, Stanton and Anderson met at the Josephine County Sheriff’s Office. Rubrecht said she pleaded with her boss to come in, saying: “Brian, I know it’s your day off and it’s your last week, but I really need you here. This is kind of above my head.”
- Okay, can’t stand it anymore..have to chime in…
#1 Taxpayers here won’t pay for anything at all!!!! We just lost our libraries and are about to lose our fairgrounds!! Our county tax here is $.58/1000! That’s simply not an option.
#2 If you ever have the urge to find out about vandalism in Galice, call the local Sheriff’s Office! It’s horrible out there, almost worse than in town!! Really, it is a real problem! - Re: 543
Sorry I accidentally hit ‘Submit Comment’ before I was
done! - 532 That was the idea. You can put whatever scary message you want on it, make it flash, whatever. The light would not go green until the vehicle has stopped on the sensor for a pre-determinjed length of time, long enough to have read the message once or twice. I’d be surprised if it was actually done, but I was just trying to think of a better way to scare, er I mean warn people who shouldn’t be up there away.
538, You’re right. It would be needed on both ends.
- Re: 544
So JoCoSAR, would local tax monies affect BLM/USFS
signage and issues like gates? Or would it all
depend on location and who’s in charge on different
parts of the roads? - 547 wait, I wanna hear what else you were gonna say about 543…
- 539 – Wow, Joe, I tossed that one out there expecting it would be way too hard to pay for or set up, so that’s awesome if there is any chance it could work. The main reason I’d brought up the cameras (yes, I agree that privacy is a concern) is that the people who think nothing will happen to them and sail past all of our new idea words on warning signs, don’t bother to stop at the check in box because it’s a hassle to get out of the car, drive around the half gate, etc. would be easier to find more quickly (which could also save money…).
- Re: 543
I posted that quote at the end from the Oregon Live
article because it stood out to me. I know you can’t
comment but it must have been hard to have the person
running the search have two days off right on some of
the crucial days in the beginning. (Saturday)I know you don’t want to blame anyone, but I can’t
help but be curious about what his work load was
about the search in those first few days. - (544) exactly my point…and any burglary or vandalism will not be investigated (sorry JoCoSAR – I know it is not your are but that is how Anderson would do it…just respond to emergencies and nothing else…practically).
Don’t get me going on the library closures and the fairgrounds – I have talked to several locals about that and a lot of people are really upset over this.
The most effective solution will be the locked gate…hate to say it but until someone is willing to step up and pay the piper – someone’s life trumps cutting down a christmas tree or snow-mobiling…etc.
- (545) That has to be your shortest post yet Lisa… :p
- Gayle (383) search again. Lots of people on this site have called James Kim a hero and/or heroic. Early on in this whole thing I did a post count, not for that reference but for other things, so I’m not going to substantiate it other than to say that you’re simply wrong. I’m sure the peanut gallery will rally to your side, but they’ll be wrong about it.
As as glenn (384) wrong when he wrote they started up Bear Camp in the rain; CNN reported that it was a rain/snow mix. In any case, the road climbs quickly and the mix changed quickly to snow. People as brilliant as the Kims — blindingly brilliant and saintly, too — should have been able to figure it out.
Gayle (390), they didn’t drive from Seattle to Portland “that day.” They drove from Seattle the previous day. They started out from Portland on Saturday, and apparently spent a few hours at a clothing boutique before getting a move on.
JoCo & glenn (391-2), I didn’t originally post about the Kims having been on Bear Camp before Nov. 25th. Someone else posted that claim, and I was wondering if there was any corroboration. In fact, I have been very careful to say that the claim should NOT be accepted without verification.
Maggie (401), you’ve taken back roads in the snow, without enough gas or basic clothing for the weather, ignoring warnings on the maps and the signs? If so, then you’re just as dumb as they are, and you should credit your good luck that nothing bad has happened to you.
Gayle (413) I really don’t think the wording would have mattered. The Kims had all the warnings they needed, yet the barrelled ahead through the snow anyway. I think they were in a sort of mental tunnel. It’s very hard to break into that tunnel. I think the most realistic way to do it is through public education, and even then you’ll still have some fraction of the drivers who don’t think the rules apply to them.
Paul (417) I have a significant knowledge of wireless technology. Radio waves are funny animals, especially in bad weather and especially at the microwave frequencies in wide use within cellular networks. Location information is usually accurate but it is far from foolproof. Among other things, microwaves have a way of bouncing off of raindrops, especially if there are a whole lot of them.
And GPS is even worse. It not only doesn’t like rain too much, but it hates leaves. Oh, and it’s a very weak signal to begin with. Anyone who thinks cellular and GPS are going to pinpoint them to within 100 feet or whatever 100% of the time probably believe in the Wizard of Oz, too.
JoCo and Paul (320, 426, 434), see what I mean about the consensus here? JoCo, in your message 320, you didn’t even come close to blaming the Kims for anything but you still got the warning from the ever-compassionate Paul in #426. Whether you know it or not, there’s an implicit bargain between you and the peanut gallery here: If you won’t criticize poor, negligent Mrs. Kim, the Compassionate Ones won’t rip you a new orifice.
See, the whole zeitgeist among the consensus is to avoid talk of blame and accountability and responsibility at all cost. That might make people feel bad about their outrageous screw-ups, and we can’t have it! The Kims got one person killed and almost got three more killed, but Shhhhhh, we can’t say that here. It might interfere with the TV movie.
mapper (473), there’s nothing vague about winter when it’s snowing like hell right outside your car window. Oh, and the DOT map shows mountains and their elevations. If the Kims were too stupid to read a map, whose fault is that? Geez. To know that the road went to Gold Beach they had to look closely enough at the map to see the warning and to see the heights of the mountains. But even if they didn’t, there were three more signs and that funny white stuff falling like crazy right outside their windows.
Maybe the answer is to teach graduate students what snow is? Maybe CNET could have a special corporate meeting to be limited only to its highest-I.Q. senior employees and their wives. Come on. It was “vague?” No it wasn’t! In addition to the warnings on the map and the signs, and the snow falling, there had been forecasts of a big winter storm on the way. And the Kims had lived in Oregon.
Once again, the peanut gallery here is turning itself into a troupe of circus acrobats (Circque du Soleil, anyone?) to avoid telling the truth, which is that this tragedy can be stamped Made in Kims’ Brains. They screwed up and paid a heavy price. Now the best thing to do is say that. Not just here, but to the broader public.
Of course, all it would do is save some lives. Tsk, tsk.
- Re: 550
clarify:
‘I can’t help but be curious about what
his work load was regarding the search in those first
few days…’ - JoCo’s baaaaaaaacckk……
- ARRRGGGHHH!
- Joe can you please put the trash out? We need the space. I have a huge animated SuperHero tribute for James Kim I want to post – he can do no wrong – I even have Stan Lee helping me with the images!!!
- #556 does not pertain to JoCoSAR.
- What a time for Joe to go play table tennis!!!
-
Hi Pac.
- (560) Fool – LOL
- Apparently PacNWer was watching and when JoCo appeared, he couldn’t stand her getting all the attention.
- …or…they are somehow connected…
but I am not paranoid…lol
- Lively group this has turned into, eh?
- O lord Glenn! re: #563
Don’t get me started!
What are you lookin at me for? - Where is Paul and his pithy comments?
- 563 – would you give me some credit here??
- 567 – JoCoSAR has a point – I’m not sure Pac could muster JoCo’s niceness – no relation, not even twice removed half cousins.
- I am also curious if that phone call that was first for
Anderson or Sara R Saturday night, that Sara R took when Anderson at first did not, (I know you clarified that he didn’t need to call back because there was a message that Sara R had taken the call when contacted) was from State Police Officer Powers.I’m not sure how much it matters or not. But it sounds
like it was an important call.I do look forward to the report, and you having that relief,
and the relief of finally being able to answer our questions. - [551] .. “someone’s life trumps cutting down a christmas tree or snow-mobiling…etc.” …true, but it is their life, not yours. let them decide, not you.
- 569- that was who is was from…or so I heard…
- Everyone’s actually being quite entertaining and humorous if you can get as warped as I occasionally do. #566 JoCo chiming in again was even funny. Comic relief!
- I’ll say this much: Is this the most neurotic group around? I mean, I keep expecting to pick up the newspaper tomorrow and see a headline, James Kim Still Dead/Friends, Co-Workers Cite ‘Heroic Rest’
- #571 yeah… right.
-
- #573, now that wasn’t funny.
- I just out that quote in because it sounded telling
that Sara R “plead” with her boss to come in, when
there was such an important SAR operation going on.It seems he should have been more involved in an
emergency/crisis SAR operation, even on his days
off.Is there a policy in regard to days off during SAR emergency
operations? (In general and for the acting Sheriff/Undersheriff?)I know you said that Sara is always available in such
cases, regardless of days off.Sorry if I’m discussing topics that are too hot.
I’m just trying to understand…
- Do you really follow policy when your in your last week of work??
Comment by RogueRiverRat | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 8:34 pm –> | Edit
- 577 – there are no such policies. Besides, remember that we didn’t have an official search in our county until Monday. Until that time, we were doing a courtesy clearing of roads. As of Sunday though, there were decisions that needed to be made that Sara has no authority to make on behalf of the SO. Haven’t you ever heard of people who have all of the responsibility, yet none of the authority? Well….here is a perfect case!!
- (567) hee hee…u r getting credit thats for sure!
- (57 but when a life is at stake you would hope so…even if it were his last five minutes of work…
- Lisa (577), he blew off the call for the football game on a Saturday night. He was back in the office the following morning at 8 a.m., so perhaps you can tell us what he didn’t accomplish overnight other than to hold her hand and make her feel good.
I misjudged that one at first, until I called a cop friend of mine and we talked it through. Then I went and re-read the story and realized the timing. People need downtime. I don’t think the guy did anything wrong.
- (571) so did you hear while on the phone or just in passing…
- re579: “Haven’t you ever heard of people who have all of the responsibility, yet none of the authority? Well….here is a perfect case!!”
I had that in the Air Force ALL the time. I was an E7 MSgt, kind of like Sara. Anderson would have been the worthless officer, commander.
- (581) This is true you would hope so! But you never know!
- I have to go anyway, so I will stop with my questions.
And just to clarify – Bob Hollenbeck’s idea was to
have a gate that locals who knew could go around,
but that would cause un-local visitors to know
the road was closed.I think no matter what the solution – locals will
need to have local access, or they will tamper and
vandalize to get it. - 553/573…
As a home health care worker, I have worked with the blind, but no one this blind.
- 583..nice try!! Ummm, I was just passing by at the time.
582..I have never said that Anderson did anything wrong those first couple of days, remember? It has been clarified that he answered all of Sara R.’s calls…
- (586) Locals or not, a gate wouldn’t stop people if they want to get out and play they will go, and locals take offense to a gate on “their” road.
- (589) Understand your point…how do you they feel about bodies on their road? I mean that as a serious question…I really would like to know.
- (587) Why are you giving him compliments? Even the blind have something to offer.
- I’m still withholding my judgement on Anderson until we see the timeline in the report (if we see it).
- (589)Well funny thing NONE of the people who live on the road offered to help during so who knows bodies on their road might be ok to them
- Re: 588
JoCoSAR – Thanks for clarifying. I guess I hadn’t realized
how technical the start date for the official local
search was.One last question – you probably won’t be able to answer.
Did a lot of work occur regarding the search on Sunday.
Other than the morning meetings, and the couple who tried
to check 34-8-36 it hasn’t been apparent that a lot
happened.I guess it was the official day for gathering SAR staff
and initial information gathering and organization, etc.?But not a lot of search operations?
- JoCo (588), my comment #582 was in response to Lisa’s comment #577, not to anything you wrote. And all these numbers remind me of the joke about the prisoners who’ve been locked up so long that they’ve numbered all the jokes so they can just say the number and everyone will start laughing.
But I didn’t know that Anderson actually took all the calls. This implies that the [i]Oregonian[/i] made a mistake in its report. Did they acknowledge an error?
- 595 – they probably never will acknowlede any of their errors. If they would have cleared up what they misprinted, we wouldn’t be having an “investigation!”
- 596 – acknowledge, I mean!
- 594 – Lisa, yes there were many operations on Sunday. Hopefully, the report will list them…if not, I will be back here to let you know what they were!
- Looks like more of the livelier types at MT are migrating over here. Welcome! Rogue River Rat, are you in SAR?
- Where has it been clarified that he answered all the calls?
- (599) Yes I am in SAR….Here with JOCO.
- Last questions promise! And you don’t have to answer…
- 600 – I clarified earlier, sorry not sure of the number…but I am clarifying again now…I heard…he answered all of Sara R.’s calls on Saturday.
- Re599: never mind R.R.R., I don’t need to know if you’re in SAR. So you raft a lot? Local perspective is Always welcome.
- Livelier, crazier, or both, DH? Well at least I don’t smoke crack. I do this.
- (604) Its ok I am proud to be in SAR, yes I raft ALOT, happen to run a rafting resort….
- The newspaper story said he acknowledged not taking one of her calls. Was this a lie or a mistake?
- re601: Thanks for what you do.
- Why thank you I enjoy it
- #606 – Great, what fun! And your fun translates into a valuable resource for SAR.
- RogueRiverRat –
what do you think would be potential solutions?
And JoCoSAR –
Are most of the SAR operations on Bear Camp for
locals or visitors/travellers? - I find it interesting that I lived and breathed all this in real life and still do, and you all have lived and breath it here on this site. Very Interesting
- The Oregonian wrote:
Her direct supervisor, an undersheriff in his last week on the job, said he ignored a late-night call from her about the case because he was watching an Oregon State football game on television.
This clearly conveys that the Oregonian confirmed it directly with Anderson himself. JoCo, are you telling us that there was no such confirmation? Did the Oregonian invent the information and lie about having confirmed it? That’s a pretty serious allegation.
- RE606: My son in law rafts on Rogue a lot, he’s a river rat from Prospect, Todd S., my daughter rafts all the way down river with him.
- (611) Well I am happy to offer my opinions on solutions, HOWEVER because I lived it, I must watch what I say, I don’t believe there is a REAL solution for it.
- I love the rogue!!!! Rafting is great!
- re612: I guess we envy you, living vicariously. I’m shameless, but harmless also. I mean well.
- 613 – the only thing I am saying is that no calls from Sara R. were ignored, period. What the oregonian did is another story..
- I don’t envy RRR, or anyone else for that matter. I would much rather sit in my living room and pick it apart than actually DO any work. God forbid.
- (619) Somedays I can agree however someones gotta do it!
- JoCo, did the Oregonian not ask Anderson directly whether he took the call or not? The article said they did. The newspaper’s statement was worded in such a way as to make it crystal clear that it was directly verified by an interview with him. Is that false?
- re615: You may actually be right about no REAL solution. I’m willing to concede that possibility. I have not given up on a solution, but I can definitely see what you’re saying. I am spending a little time tryin to get word out that JoCo SAR needs some Trucks etc., at least that’s something concrete I can do for SAR… you deserve it.
- There is never “no solution.” But there might be no practical solution from a SAR point of view.
- 621 – Pac, I wasn’t there man…really! I wish that I knew why the Oregonian did what they did, but I don’t. So, here I sit in my office talking to all of you scanning documents!!!!!
- Do you think it would have been helpful to Sara R if
Anderson had been more involved in the “courtesy
clearing of roads” earlier – or it wouldn’t have
made any difference?I wish I could ask if you think Anderson was very
helpful in general but I know that is probably
completely out of the question.I know he was “running the search.” I am just curious
about what mistakes were made, that have been and will
be learned from. But I know I have to wait! - (622)You are absolutly right! I believe as long as people want to go out and have fun and no matter the publicity on the Kim search or on how the search was handled a gate, signs, or even someone standing at the enterance of the road people will continue to go up there and get stuck and get lost.
- JoCo, if the statement by the Oregonian was a lie, i.e., they never interviewed Anderson and asked him that question, then people who know this to be the case should contact the supervising editors at the Oregonian because I think they’d definitely want to hear about it.
- 625 – oh how I wish I could answer that one…I will someday…
- 627 – I think you are right. Too bad the Jo Co people have been ordered not to contact or even talk to the media!! I am hoping that all of that will be resolved in the investigation…there was more than just that very quote that was wrong mind you!!!
- (593) Thanks for the input…that doesn’t seem very good. You would hope more from people…
- JoCo, if you weren’t there, then how do you know what calls Anderson did or didn’t answer and whether he was interviewed about the issue by the Oregonian? Are you going on what people have told you? How do you know that you’ve been told the truth?
- 630- After being a member of SAR for over 7 years I have given up on “hoping” for more from people, its why I enjoy what I do for the county!
- (596) Sorry JoCoSAR…I think an investigation was warranted in this case…it is too bad it took articles like those to call for one.
- 631- How do you know the Oregonian is telling the truth
- (601) Thanks RogueRiverRat for all your efforts and work in SAR…you are a hero to many people out there and certainly to us as well.
- JoCo, typically when a newspaper makes a statement as specific and unambiguous as the one in question, the reporter has a tape recording of the interview. I’d be VERY surprised to learn otherwise.
- 631 -ok, you know I can’t get into how I know. I am telling you that I am 100% sure. I can tell you that without telling you how I know. I have to leave it at that.
- 636- do they tape phone interviews?
- (634) That’s the point…we don’t know the truth…we would like very much to hear it.
- Well keep your eyes posted on the news!
- However just be patient and take it with a grain of salt (especialy from the oregonian!)
- 640 – Hi River, yes, if anyone will be watching, it will you all and this group for certain! BTW, I’ll add my thanks and appreciation for your hard work.
- I appreciate all of your words!
- (640) I think you will find the people here read just about every news source they can…most of us have talked directly to SAR, locals, and reporters on this issue and have done a ton of research. Most of our reactions are based on what limited (and incorrect in some cases) information we have.
The bottom line is you have about 14 people now involved on the outside that want to try to figure out ways to help SAR and specifically JoCo. We are not fully sure how this going to happen yet…but we are resources that can do something.
- BTW…RogueRiverRat if you can include the post you are responding to in parens i.e. post (641) Yes RogueRiverRat we are trying to be patient…
That will be helpful when we are answering and for others that join the mania later.
Thanks. - re631: this has been covered and attempted before, but since JoCo can’t reveal his identity, these questions can’t be answered until at least after Jan 5 review so as not to compromise the investigation… plus Daniels told them not to talk. Right JoCo? Close?
- 638, it varies, but my friends who are reporters often tape conversations. They’ll ask the interview subject if they object, and rarely does anyone do so. It used to be hard to tape phone calls but technology marches on.
- That is great news! Get involved would be the first step which is what I see here, JOCOSAR has told me you all were pretty cool thus why I have posted tonight with you all.
- It may sound strange – but I can’t tell you how badly I
wanted to – carefully – not recklessly – but I wanted to go down in that drainage and haul some major ass! I am an
experienced, agile hiker who likes challenges, especially
for the most important reasons.I love wet, slippery Oregon wilderness – even creek beds in an emergency! (When I can return to dryness and warmth.)
I know outsiders aren’t allowed to help, I understand
for organizational and safety reasons. But I tell you – if I had lived nearer – it would have been excruciatingly difficult to not have tried to do something significant.I was pacing the floors at home virtually non-stop wanting to be able to do something – to try to help in time.
And I am considering one day volunteering for SAR!
- Thank you RRR for sharing and for the work you do. I’m glad it’s fun for you.
- Pac I am not sure what the laws are in Oregon…but the recording of phone calls is illegal in a lot of states. You must have permission to do it. In some states it is legal to record the conversation if one of the parties knows…but it varies state by state.
- 634, I don’t know that the Oregonian told the truth. But if they didn’t even interview Anderson then the newspaper’s lie was small but as blatant as blatant gets. I could imagine them misconstruing something in an interview, but not concocting the information and the fact of an interview out of whole cloth. That would be very surprising to me.
- 649- Then fill out and application and start volunteering, on a low key level even! Every little bit helps! In some cases we do allow emergant volunteers we pair them up with one of the SAR folks, we have done it one previous searches.
- glenn (651), you might want to consider reading what someone actually writes. It would really improve your understanding of even small issues.
- 652 – I told you already…that wasn’t the only lie in that article that Sunday!! I have seen the documentation that backs up the truth, and that’s not what was printed!! The truth was told to Michelle Roberts in a taped in person interview, yet told differently in the paper!
- (64 I am not sure how cool we are…most of us are geeks. We are also very opinionated in some ways but most of us are very open-minded and when presented with information we digest it and if necessary adjust our position.
I would also say we are on SAR’s side for sure. We don’t try to take shots at the feet on the ground. If you read back I have been very critical of Sara R. and Anderson based on the information I had. As that information changes about them so will my position and my perspective.
One of the best things about JoCoSAR is she has improved my perspective quite a bit and I for one would back her up even if she was in a position that made mistakes. JoCoSAR has shown me she is serious, intelligent and really trying to make something right.
- From today’s Oregonian…
In a statement announcing the sheriffs’ association investigation, the Josephine County Sheriff’s Office pledged the agency would make public and correct any “procedural errors or timeliness issues” revealed in the review.
“We feel that it is important that not only should the decisions and procedures implemented during the Kim family search be reviewed,” the statement said, but also that the decisions be reviewed by an organization with experience in such reviews.
Jake Weigler, a spokesman for Kulongoski, said the state and local investigations will be quickly followed by the appointment of a governor’s task force.
That group will take up any changes in state and local coordination that may be needed, Weigler said. But he said there are no plans to take authority away from county sheriffs, who are responsible under Oregon law for search and rescue.
“The governor’s task force is not looking to pre-empt or change that,” Weigler said. “It’s simply working toward better coordination and collaboration by state entities to improve these search efforts.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1167193516213980.xml&coll=7
- Pac, I don’t think that you were here when I talked about this or not, but I did ask the opinion of those here what they thought about a lawsuit. If the Oregonian printed lies and that is proven, would Sara R. (who was only logistics section chief) have any legal recourse for something like slander?
- 656- I don’t doubt you all are for SAR, It is nice to see people on SAR side even if it a arm chair quarterbacking. I have to say it is nice to talk about it in “general” with people who AREN’T SAR
- (657) I think that point about authority and the county sheriff’s comes from the discussion about New Mexico SAR…they had a vast improvement when they moved the authority from county sheriff to a state agency. Not sure if that would work everywhere…but it worked in NM.
- JoCo, you have asserted that the Oregonian got it wrong, but you have not provided supporting detail and you are declining to do so. That’s your choice and for all I know you have good reasons for making it, but your assertion plus a buck and a half will buy a tall coffee of the day at Starbucks.
- (660) I should have added…interesting how that point was made in the article though.
- re648. R.R.R., what is great news???
- 656 – Glenn, I couldn’t agree more. I would back up JoCoSAR easily based on the genuine care that comes through, even if she was one that made mistakes. Hearing her explanations helps so much on perspective, too.
- 957 – can’t imagine what a governors task force is going to fix, but hopefully he is under enough pressure to do something! I can tell you that all of the Homeland Security state/federal grant monies have gone towards WMD, not at all available for SAR stuff..
- (661)
JoCo, you and I can have coffee together now! Finally, I have someone to have coffee with!
Waited probably 1000 posts for that. - (661) You need new material buddy…that coffee line is getting worn out…besides anybody knows SAR doesn’t drink Starbucks…they drink cowboy coffee!
She has promised to come back and discuss anything in detail after the investigation is complete.
We don’t want her to lose her job because she talked to us…that’s just crazy.
- 663- Its great that there are people like you all interested in helping SAR and want to learn more about what we do and want to help out in some way (644)
- (665) yeah until you need to rescue a terrorist…aye yi yi…isn’t life just insane!
- 661.
- cowboy coffee? We drink Dutch Brothers coffee here!! And plenty of it…
I want to know though, where he is getting a cup of coffee for $1.50? - 666 – LOL, tara I was hoping you were reading along to catch that!
- sorry, I tried with Pac..as badly as you want difinitive answers, know that I want to give them to you twice a bad..best I can do.
- Yep maggie, Im glad I didnt miss that. : )
- OMG!!! DUTCH BROTHERS!!!!!
- (66 RogueRiverRat I used to a rescue diver…more like recovery diver and I did it in the cold – under ice many times. I can somewhat understand what you guys are going through but it has been almost 20 years since I was active.
I used to be certified as an EMT as well. I haven’t been involved in SAR like you guys have to do.
- I have a feeling that State Police Officer Powers was the one who may have noted that Anderson did not at first answer his phone call Saturday night, and he may have mentioned this at some point in his interview with the Oregonian, “off the record.”
And if this was the case, I think it was right of him to
notice this behavior on the part of the Undersheriff,
given the importance of this SAR investigation, even if
it wasn’t “Official” that is was fully in his county yet.At this point many people in Oregon and California, including Officer Powers, seemed more worried about this case than the Undersheriff’s behavior suggested.
- (671) yeah that would qualify as cowboy coffee…
- 671 – Sorry for my outburst… JoCoSAR, I knew I liked you, and now I get it. EVERY morning begins with Dutch, and that is a measure of a great person! (sorry, coffee addict, and they rock)
- 676- Rescue Diver just dosen’t seem like a just name, have you ever really “rescued” a diver, they all seem to be recoveries across the board.
- 678 – large hot white chocolate annhilator with 5 shots please!!
- OMG, really didn’t expect Dutch Brothers to come up here. I’m off the eggnog back to hazelnut, but the Kicker is nice sometimes, too. OK, way off topic, reining in, calming down.
- 681- Large 911 with 8 shots please
- 682. Wow, that coffee gets you going, lol. I sure miss it; allergic.
- lol (682)
- (680) yeah that is why I said that. However I was involved in a search for a cavern diver that we found in a large air filled cavern – still alive – that was the only one.
- OMG – you guys are killing me – 8 shots??!!. The best thing that ever happened to my little Portland suburb town was when they opened the double drive-thru. I’ve dropped back down to 4 shots instead of 5, but it’s still sooooo good.
- (684) u r being punished for something…allergic to coffee…u must have been really bad!
- 686- Very nice!!!
- JoCo, the issue is defamation. In print, defamation is called libel. When spoken it is called slander. It’s generally difficult for a public figure — and Sara would be one for purposes of an article dealing with her job performance — to win damages for libel or slander.
A public figure must show that the statement was defamatory, i.e., that it injured a person’s reputation or business; that it was untrue; and that (in this case) the newspaper either knew it was untrue or acted with reckless disregard for whether or not it was true or false.
Mere mistakes don’t count. They’ve got to know they were lying, or have been so fast and loose that they were just as good as lying. It’s a very tough standard for a plaintiff to meet. Very few libel/slander cases are won by the plaintiff.
That’s why I’m asking you for specifics. See, the Oregonian’s statement that we’ve been discussing tonight was phrased in such a way as to say in no uncertain terms that they interviewed Anderson and that, in that interview, Anderson admitted not taking the phone call.
If they didn’t even interview him, then I’d like to be Anderson’s lawyer because I think I’d have a pretty damn good chance at winning one of those rare libel verdicts. But if they interviewed him and simply misinterpreted his answer, forget about going to court.
As for Sara, she can only collect if they’ve defamed her in the manner I’ve described. If she’s pissed off about the paper’s inaccuracies in general, too bad. She’d be laughed out of court. The only lawyer who’d take it would be an unemployed publicity hound who wasn’t worried about the possibility of being disciplined for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
- 688- You might have something there, Glenn, lol. Makes my blood pressure take a serious drop.
- So who wants to meet at Dutch Bro’s in GP and pick up their SAR applications???
- (690) are you giving legal advice?
- I screwed up the coding in msg 690. It wasn’t supposed to be all italics for the final paragraphs. Oh well, I’ll just assume you can puzzle it through.
- 690 – Thanks for that answer Pac. Sounds like the pitts…not sure how you could prove all of that. Too bad for her. I think that she really got the short end of the stick here!
- glenn, I know the law of libel and slander very well.
- 692 – Believe me, if I was anywhere near there, I’d be there for both very good reasons!
- 697- I would be happy to fax or mail you one!
- (696) I am sure…that is fully understandable…
Are you on the Oregon Bar?
- JoCo, people aren’t necessarily supposed to like what they read in the paper. Often, you’ll have people claiming that the newspaper “lied” when it’s not so. I notice that the nearby newspapers haven’t done much coverage. Often it’s the out of town paper that will go after these stories because they can step on local toes at will.
- 698 – River, in all seriousness, is there anything I can do from here? If so, I would definitely apply – I doubt you’d want me doing any of the cooking or anything up high (afraid of heights and would need rescued…), but I’m sure I could do something useful.
- Did anyone notice (677)?
Just curious…
- 700-I understand that, I have seen that often. What I am telling you though, is that they flat out LIED!!! No ifs, ands, or buts about it at all!! I am really counting on the investigation…still….
Our local reporter has done very well with his coverage on the search efforts and following stories. The worst part of that is that The Daily Courier is not online….not many people read that. - 701- There is always something someone can do from some place. Better equipment would always be greatly appreciated, donations of $$ so we can get NEW equipment as you saw from the list JOCOSAR put, SAR uses 2nd hand stuff that we touch up here and there and pray while we are driving down the road that the wheels stay on.
- 702-I think that 677 was a good comment..I cannot confirm that opinion or not. I do know that quote about the phone call was from an interview with Anderson from the week before where Michelle Roberts did a very nice story about him. She used that interview for the week after.
- (689) Someday when we meet RogueRiverRat I will tell you the hat-trick of death that caused me to hang it up! All three were up close and personal and two out of three could have been potentially saved but weren’t…all in a 9 day period. After 6 years of it – I had to stop.
- (702) LOL…ur killing me…that was your best post yet!
Yes I read it…very interesting for sure.
- 706- Sounds like a plan…..
- (70 You know what is strange…I have never forgotten their names, nor their faces but ask me to list my best friends from 20 years ago…
- 704 – Now that really is something I can do from here! Maybe this summer when I’m on a road trip down that way I’ll see some of you at Dutch.
- 709- I can agree with you I was talking the other day with a fellow SAR member about searches and we could name each one and remember pretty much EACH detail about it, however we couldn’t remember what we did the day before.
- 710- If you don’t mind what part of the state are you located in or west coast??
- Thanks!
Goodnight!
- Glenn, I didn’t realize your experiences. Wow.
- 712 – I’m near Portland.
- Maggie – what county do you live in? If that isn’t too specific?
- 716 – No problem. I’m in Washington County.
- 709, 711
Latest research suggests that adrenaline substantially
increases memory imprinting. That’s why people remember
trauma/difficult/intense situations so well.You could probably google it if you’re interested.
- Washington County has the best SAR Coordinator ever!! His name is Tygh Thompson. He has an all explorer group (kids 14-21) He teaches our Managing Search Operations classes. He is definitely the coolest guy ever!
- Well thank you Lisa, I just might if I ever get off this blog site thanks to JOCOSAR!!!
- 717 – I bet he would have a place for someone like you who is interested in helping…we all need help! You would love working with Tygh!!
- The newspaper might have talked with the state cop, but he could not have been the only source for the Oregonian’s statement quoted in msg 613. The paragraph was worded so that Anderson is the only person who could have verified the information.
The paragraph was as specific as it gets, which makes the allegation that it was a lie equally specific. Either Anderson was interviewed or he wasn’t. Either he was asked about the issue or he wasn’t. If he said it a week earlier to a different reporter, that’s beside the point. Either he said it or he didn’t.
JoCo, you’ve chosen not to answer my specific queries with specific answers, but instead have repeated broad allegations. Without more detail, there’s nothing more to say on that issue.
- 705 – JoCo, I was going to ask you, if you are at liberty to comment on this one, what your take was on the vast difference in the two Oregonian articles – the one that painted Anderson in such a sympathetic light almost from his perspective, followed by the one that was pretty scathing (the one I don’t think I need to describe…)? Any thoughts you can say about it before the 5th?
- 719 – Very cool, thank you! Is there typically stuff that a person can really do that pretty much has a regular 40-hour a week job (bet you couldn’t tell with all most posting here, but it’s true…)?
- 722-that’s ok Pac, I certainly didn’t ask you to fix it for me! I was asking your opinion, that was all.
- (71 I can even remember distinct smells from that…and when I smell something similar it is like I am transported back there…quite a strange feeling actually.
(719) JoCoSAR that is how I actually got into this…I was a Fire Explorer among other youth organizations. The lessons I learned from all of that still carry with me today.
- 718…off topic… Lisa, I saw on one of the head channel programs that if you want to remember something, pinch yourself hard enough to cause a little pain and it helps to imprint the memory.
- 727- I would be covered in welts!!!
- (727) Gayle that is twisted…but I like it!
- LOL, River! That’s interesting, Gayle!
- 723 – I can only say that Michelle Roberts did the first one alone. She was assisted by three others on the second one. I had expected more out of Michelle on the second one, but who knows…maybe Peter had more influence on the second one? I was disappointed for sure. I know that week, Sara R. was not answering any press calls. She was asked by Anderson (who just had a great story written) to talk to Roberts. Roberts made promises that she didn’t keep. That’s too bad (although not illegal Pac, I know). I have to stick with my opinion that it was more Peter’s influence than to think that Michelle could have changed that drastically….
That answer your question? - re695JoCo: It would seem the short end of the stick by 2 sources, the Oregonian, and Anderson. I mean her supervisors left her out to dry to take all the criticism, correct? Of course, that would include Daniels too. And I guess Anderson would also have been instructed by Daniels to be just as quiet as Sara, correct? Maybe not. Management is under a different set of rules that the rest of county positions from what I’ve seen.
- 728. LOL, RRR… I think it works but I can’t really remember…
- 731 – Hmmmmm, yes, I think it does answer it. Thank you. That’s very interesting. In a few ways.
- Anybody wonder why the Kim family hasen’t stepped up and said anything about the search or the press coverage?? Just a question
- 735 – I assumed it was just because they wanted privacy and didn’t want to get involved in additional hoopla right now. Do you have another take??
- (735) I guess they are grieving…having their own personal issues. Not sure how I would be in that situation.
- re735RRR: YES! But I keep getting shot down about my curiosity. Sorry guys, that’s the way I see it. What do you think, R.R.R? Why haven’t they stepped up? It seems like it would be difficult, but helpful in many ways.
- 735 – Having been in a similar yet different situation where the press was heavily involved, our family just wanted privacy and to be left alone for a while. I’m sure it must be the same for the Kim’s.
- Well in just comparing it to the recent MT Hood search, the family was on TV and interviewed shortly after the deceased climber was brought down yet the media hasen’t done that type of thing with the Kims, nor has their imput been put in towards the investigation just seems weird to me at least. I don’t really have a take on it honestly just think its wierd the the father played a HUGE role in the search and then drops off the face of the earth
- Pac
Your response to my professional critique of the ODOT map is laughable, I won’t go there. But I am still waiting for your professional and educational background.
So far I understand you know something about prison jokes, and claim to know some reporters and something about slander. I’m not sure what that means since you seem to think you know about a lot, but really, I would love to know what your speciality is, what you studied, what you do.
Thanks.
- (735) I know in the Korean culture during grieving they really don’t talk about the death. They focus on the person’s life and what they did…not how or why they died.
I am not sure how long that goes for…
The Kim’s are Korean – correct?
- re740RRR: My feelings are much the same as yours RRR. Grieving just doesn’t quite cover it in my opinion. So many families tend to do that, step up to confront the media a little.
- Yes, definitely Korean. And death is definitely a different kind of cultural issue there vs. here.
- 740- I know that Spencer Kim (dad) was on his own private jet out of town about 15 minutes after the finding was confirmed…we thought that was strange too. I guess it might be a cultural thing? Maybe his legal counsel (who was active on the search) had something to do with it??
Have no idea about Kati though.. - 745- There wasen’t even a small press conference from Kati after she was found or anything just as if they all fell off the face of the earth.
- 745 – I didn’t realize Mr. Kim had brought legal counsel with him… Perhaps that is part of the silence? Just a thought.
- Yeah, maybe it is cultural, something just doesn’t quite seem right though.
- Tara you still around???
- 727
Gayle – that could also have to do with adrenaline,
I believe – pain causes/promotes a heightened adrenal response. - 746 – I just assumed while still looking for James that Kati wouldn’t want to talk and that after… well, not then either.
- (740) That is a difference in culture. I also think that Mr. Kim fully understands that decisions James made unfortunately ended his life. I would be surprised if Mr. Kim ever put any blame on anyone other than James.
For those of you wondering about the grieving family issues and Kati being forced to leave on or near Christmas it may be because she spoke out about something – that just doesn’t work for most of them in that culture.
- Cultral or not it all was VERY weird and to not hear anything even really of thank you or a why dose the media keep hounding these people from them is just strange!!
- 752 – Hard to say, Glenn. I can think of several cultural issues off the top of my head that could have been related.
- Mapper, if you are still here, can you remind me where your really cool post was about maps?? I think it was directed at Pac.
- Im here, RRR.
- 747 – Spencer brought all kinds of resources..including his legal council from his business. Most of his employees were redirected to work on the case as well…
- Hey, we know who you are….took us a while though…good to see you here!
- 756- OK just checking thanks!
- “We” being me and RRR
- 757 – Wow. I mean I guess I can understand that if you have the money to do it, why not put every possible resource into trying. I just had no idea it was that extensive. Legal counsel on active search… Wow. Did that create more pressure for SAR?
- tara – If you figured out who we are, please please don’t share!!! If you know who I am, call my cell phone!
- speaking as a “SAR” person we didn’t know he did really, on the paperwork end of pushing it all nah no pressure!
- Old home week in here??
- Hi JoCo
Thanks for your interest. The post I made was (473). I was going off my memory then a few minutes later I looked up the map in question and posted the link. It just confirmed what was in my memory except that the use of the color red in the map is even more prevalent than I had thought, and used more generally than I thought (not a good thing, really).
I also have some theories about the boxes in the warnings that are on that map, after closer inspection that I havn’t gone into. I might post again with more but just wanted to hit the main points about what could and should be different in that map.
- I don’t know about old home week just a SMALL world!
- 740, 746
I think it’s different with Kati vs. the families of the
climbers on Mt. Hood because Kati was in the trauma.
That’s extreme emotional and physical trauma to be in with
your babies. Two of her toes had frost bite. Her children
were crying because they were hungry. Her husband is lost/missing, and then found dead.Hey, Wanna Have a Press Conference? Fun!
That’s different from the trauma of waiting for news in
otherwise comfortable circumstances. - (757) That would be expected given his position…I am sure any one of us would use all the resources we have to find a son.
His lawyer…that is probably standard practice for Spencer. Something this critical he would want his trusted advisor along.
Outside of my wife…my most trusted advisor is my primary attorney.
- (765) Mapper is good…I have seen her work!
- 768 – It definitely does make sense, and I would do the same. I guess I just didn’t realize how many people he had around him. Maybe I need an attorney (no good reason).
- Thanks mapper! I wanted to share that with RRR.
- (767) I am sure the Mount Hood families in the back of their minds knew this was a possibility given the extreme things their family members did.
I think their faith and wanting to show support drove them to do those pressers. It was important to them in this process.
Spencer…he had one mission and only one mission – bring his family home.
- (770) Spencer’s life if filled with liabilities…true for most exec’s these days…but in aerospace even more so.
- Thanks Glenn! And that was me under pressure/in a hurry with free data, you should see my good stuff! You know in grad school I was involved in a plagiarism scandal (someone stole my work and tried to pass it as their own). It was really a great compliment, despite the audacity of it!
- I just think Spencer Kim was so devastated – he didn’t
want to be in the “place” that took his son anymore. - 775- But after putting your heart and soul into searching and helping people look for your son, to just up and drop it and move on to getting out, without your family leaving those surviving here?? Hhhmmm fishy to me
- Kati will tell her story. Much of it is heartbreaking. Kati is very smart and she has an outstanding memory; furhermore, she is very straight forward so you can expect a good story when she finally decides on the proper forum for telling.
James really did live up to all the all good things you read about him. I personally believe he deserves to be commended as hero, but I can understand the reservation of those who beg to differ.
In my opinion James was a near perfect son-in-law and husband. I still have a hard time believing that we got the girls back alive and well.
Comment by wpflem | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 10:59 pm –> | Edit
- re762 wow, cloak and dagger here.
- wpflem – thank you for your input, be cautious of PacNWer’s response..it may not be nice. Most of us in here agree with your opinion and appreciate your input.Are you a family friend?
- re777: wo… kati’s family?
- Thats great JoCo
I would be delighted if ODOT took some of my suggestions, some of them are very simple. The easiest of which would be, instead of changing the whole map (which I think they need to get away from the use of the color red for general purposes, but that is a big change that will take more time) they could change the warning boxes to another color all together, say, a good yellow, with a yelllow arrow and yellow text (deep enough so it stands out).
Unfortuatley after I inspected this map it looks like the warnings are an afterthought. They look like they were created in “paint” and added haphazardly and that would explain why the color isn’t quite right and the placement looks a little bit off. We used to use this technique for rough and quick communication between our city and the software company. It looks like they used this technique to add the warnings hastily, and that the person who added it is probably not the same person who designed the map. This is hard to explain but basically, I mean it looks very lazily done, and an afterthought.
Thanks!
- I can’t leave the computer anymore… Every time I do, I miss something.
wpflem, welcome here.
- (777) Thanks. A lot of here feel James is a hero. He even meets the requirement in Webster’s definition.
Your post was a much uplifting one…thanks again.
- Fleming is Kati’s mothers name. Here name is Sandy.
- what is Kati’s dads first name? is it william?
- He goes by Phil I believe
- re#777: Comment by “wpflem” Flemming is Kati’s families name. Are you in her family? If so, my condolences.
- 776
It sounds like you’re expecting all people to be
and act the same. People are’t. People respond to
grief differently.I think he was so devastated – it just kind of
shut him down, and he just wanted to get away.Some people find relief in communication. Some
people find relief in distance.I really think his son was so beloved to him, in a way we might never know or understand.
Look at all he did trying to save him.
- Jeeze… you just never know do ya?
- Wow, this place is jumping, it’s hard to keep up. It will indeed be interesting to see if and when the Kims speak out. I’m not sure there is a united front there, however.
(752) Glenn, I saw Mr. Kim as a very pragmatic, focused individual with resources who didn’t hesitate to do what he needed to do. Very decisive. I wondered during the first part of the search why Kati’s parents were staying home, though. Without knowing their circumstances, I remember thinking that if my daughter and her family were lost, I’d be on the road or in the air on my way to the locale to be on hand, no doubt retracing their route or something just to keep busy. But since Spenser had taken charge, perhaps her family figured best to let him deal with it. I perceive Kati as less traditional than the Kims, and wonder if there was always a bit of tension in the relationship with the in-laws.
I think Kati is in a similar situation as Sara in that everyone is speculating about what she did or didn’t do. I think there is no way she doesn’t feel some guilt over this thing, no matter who had the idea to keep driving, who was watching for the turnoff, whatever, people always second guess themselves. She seems a resilient sort, so I wish her well holding things together for her kids.
- 788- I agree I just think its weird and was a new topic on the kim search to talk about. I don’t expect people to act the same. Just looking for others imput on it all.
- 788
People aren’t. – typo!
- 788 – I just felt so bad for Kati, he didn’t take her with him when he left…she was left in GP. She had friends with her, but James’s family left.
- re785-786: I think I heard a jet just go over everyone’s heads.
- 793 – Wow, I’d just assumed they’d all stayed together and then left together.
- re793 – wow, that’s too bad, how lonely is that?!
- look at the review on her yelp site…same story there
- 777 – wpflem, welcome and thank you for posting… my most sincere condolences to Kati, you and the family.
- (790) I can speak from experience working in Korea anyway…they don’t mess around. Very focused. You won’t find better person to have your back than a ROK soldier.
- JoCoSAR – is the charter.net you gave still good?
- 800-sure
- (793) Yes I don’t understand that either. Even with the culture differences…unless Spencer didn’t approve of their marriage in the first place.
- #797, yes I sensed that also. Like I said, how lonely is that?
- 801 – I tried to send something, but I wasn’t sure if it made it or not.
- ok, so the review page says that Kati drove to inlaws in LA for xmas. She stays in hotel for the night with her parents who drove from NM. I wonder if they are still together?? That would be so cool to be able to hear from that side~!! Or at least send our love to Kati and the girls!!
Penelope – if you are out there, virtual Cheetos and chocolate milk your way!!! - 793 – I’m stunned hearing this. Never ever imagined that.
- Hey RogueRiverRat…ur a guy right? Can we have some guy talk going on here…all this girl talk is starting to get to me…
- 804 – let me check..
- 807 – Glenn.
- 807 – lol, Glenn
- 807 how funny!! I was just telling RRR how funny it was to assume that you know someones sex on here..only to find out days later that they are the opposite!!!!
- I need to take more estrogen so I fit in better!
- I should not make assumptions.
But, I will say I was, like kati involed with a “kim” yes he even had the same last name and a very powerful/rich korean father. Now, they are not the same people and no two situations are the same. But I am probably about as american as kati seems to be. I almost married this person but he was honestly not as “good” as James seems to have been. But anyway, his father was a very, difficult, very very difficult man. But he provided for his sons and would have done the same thing if his son was missing. But, he would definitley not have been demonstative about his feelings unless he was angry.
I dont know the situaiton between kati and the kim’s but I think I kinda “get it”
thanks for joing us wpflem. I get the feeling that kati is all the things you said.
- maybe I should spell my name like glen or glynn…maybe that will confuse people.
- I’m a girl… but you all probably guessed that. Glenn, I figured you were a boy. Gayle, Tara, Lisa – girls. Mapper, DH – girls, but only because you’ve said. It really is hard to know sometimes…
- (813) wow that is insight…thanks for sharing your personal situation. It is a perspective that few of us have.
- maggie – I got it, thanks so much!!! I will respond when I can!
- 807- Sorry hate spoil your thoughts but I am not a guy
- 802
I don’t think it’s good to speculate about that now or
really our place, ever.And even more so because Kati’s Dad was just here with
us and may still be… - 807- But I can talk with a the guys just as good as if I was a guy!
- and I remain “unisex” until after the 5th!!
- 813 – Mapper, I can very much relate. Was all the way to engaged, and he was great, but the cultural thing was going to be too much between me and his mother. He and I are still friends (even if overseas), and his mother is happy I didn’t stay there and marry him. He married a nice girl there, and all is well. I totally get what you mean. It can be very complex.
- 820 – River, really??? I thought so, too. JoCo is right – hard to tell.
- It all the the name!!! What can I say~
- I had pegged Mapper for male for sure!!!
- Its all in the name sorry! typing and laughing too much!
- 822 – Just to clarify what I said, just in case. I, too, am not making any assumptions, just recognizing that cultural differences/issues can make things different than without them, and usually a bit more complex.
- (819) You make a good point. I hope if Kati’s dad is here reading this – I hope he knows how we all feel about his daughter and their family.
I also hope that he is able to find something useful of this similar to JoCoSAR has done. At a minimum we may have helped in a very small way…but at least we have done something.
- re820RRR- Yeah, I second that!
- (81 Can you at least play one on TV or something? LOL
- (822) Mapper where you in Seoul?
- Maggie,
lol, yes, we have much in common! The cultural thing can sometimes ruin the relationship, if the parents are not flexible and understanding, it is especially difficult.
James and Kati, themselves seemed to have it figured out, and I am so sad for her.
- Glenn, looks like you’re surrounded tonight.
- Hey tara you still watching???
- On central time here; have to crash. 7:00 comes early (yawn). G’night all.
- yep. just reading quietly
- Have a good night!!
- (825) that is funny! I wanted to be ambiguous but, I have finally made several comments about my gender, but its funny to wonder what people think! I, like Sara have faced a bit of difficulty being female in my field of work.
Glenn, I was not in Korea myself.
- ok girlfriends! I am off to bed. I have to get some beauty sleep and all that. Put some green stuff on and everything.
Seriously though, you guy are really great. We are learning so much and I am so looking forward to helping make this into something really worthwhile!
Have a good night…and to all you lurkers out there…jump in…the water is great and we don’t bite too hard. We would love to hear from you – good and bad.
- 378 I have not posted for a long time, just reading. Before Mr. Kim was found I post to J.D. that I also thought he was headed towards the river. The next morning I had a email from down south asking me to call them, which I did. It was a family member asking me if I had any other thoughts where Mr. Kim could be beings I new the area so well. I told them no and did say that he was in a very rough terrain. I then asked this person (which I will not give a name or phone number as this family has suffered enough) if the Kims had been over this route before and he said yes. Please do not ask me who this was because I will not give any info. Bob
Comment by Bob Hollenbeck | December 27, 2006 <!– @ 11:35 pm –> | Edit
- 832 – Very true, mapper! I agree that from absolutely everything I have read, James and Kati seem to have worked it out. Maybe I should not bring this up, but if anyone has read Kati’s Yelp thanking for support message and her recent hotel review and has not read the review that she wrote about James long before all of this when they were just living their regular lives, you really, really ought to read it. It is the sweetest thing ever – beyond just sweet because it is an appreciation of him that I rarely hear a wife actually say, let alone post. If you need the link, I’ll post it.
- Have you heard anything about a Diamond Lake training this year???
- Goodnight to all those being reasonable!
- (840) Bob…thanks for making it clear…appreciate the input.
- 825 – Oh my gosh, Mapper is a Mappette??? And RRR is one of us too? Sorry, Joe and Glenn and the other guys, you’re sadly outnumbered here. JoCo will have to wait to declare formally, but it looks like the girls rule, for now. Dare I inquire about, er, Pac?
- Interesting, this is the whole personal vs. sterile/SAR conflict…I’ve been shut down a couple of times for talking about the personal. Maybe it is a gender thing.
That’s why women should rule the world. Men don’t understand that personal IS the most important thing, the rest just follows.
Ok,carry on with discussions about signs and maps! But I sure do hope Kati tells her story eventually, in her own, beautiful voice…rather than just leaving clues on her Yelp page.
- Pac is so male!!!!
- If Pac’s not a boy, I’ll eat my sock.
- (846) ahem!
- there just can’t be any question about Pac, right?
- (847) I have noted the lowercase “so”
- 846- Ok well……….I too hope that Kati comes and tells her story….I speaking from the inside of the search would like to know the inside from her side instead of all the speculation.
- (84 (847) hahaha. indeed!
mapette! I like that! I might have to change my name now that the truth is out.
- 851 SOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOS
- (853) makes you sound like a jim henson creation!
- 836- sooooooooooooooooooooo going to any snow trainings this year TARA????
- 840 – Bob, thank you for checking in and letting us know. Sounds understandable.
- (854) just confirmed JoCoSAR is female. Thank you.
- quit baiting me. Im reading.
- you are so lying!!! lies make baby jesus cry!!!
- 859- I am not baiting you…just wondering if you fell out of your seat or something
- (854) or are you in need of some emergency assistance with all those SOS’s…
- 840
Thank you Bob! I was hoping you’d come back!
But you’ve come at an interesting time because
the girls have the giggles… - Im reading with one eye shut. It cuts my night sleep requirements in half.
- I would thinking being a unisex yes it is a SOS for help!
- 862-you wanted capitalized SO…I gave them to you!
Sorry for the giggles…
- (859) Would the pop-up version help? Maybe Joe can enable that feature for you?
See how positive the forum has become since wpflem posted…Thanks we really needed that.
- 864 – Great tip, Tara! I’ve been staying up late reading, going to work half asleep reading, doing it all over again. All this time with both eyes – no wonder I’m tired.
- 864- I know you can’t do that! Your a night owl unless alcohol is involved!!!
- Well, with three Jo Co SAR folks here now, what would you expect??
- Not knowing the area, and having to deal with my wife who was incapacitated with worry over our lost family, I thought it best to stay in New Mexico rather than rush to Oregon and start driving over terrain and looking in ditches for our missing loved ones. We did fly to Oregon on the first available flight afer they were found. In retrospect I think that was the right thing to do, e.g. leave the search to the professionals, locals, and coordinated effort of James’ father who had some resources at his disposal. I did think it worthwhile to make the early public appearances to encourage and thank those involved in searching. None of the immediate family on either side is interested in media attention, but you can bet there a few distant relatives who have expressed a desire to be involved in the limelight.
Yes, Sandy and I spent Christmas with our girls, but they are now away for a few days. As parents and Grandparents, it is most wonderful to have a supporting role. The little girls have been the center of our Universe.
I couldn’t resist making a few comments, but do understand my reluctance to speak out to any appreciable degree. This is Kati’s story to tell.
- Glenn, I want a pop up version…oh wait…version of what?
- Ok…serious now…sorry!!! Thank you wpflem, from the bottom of my heart!!!
- Hi Bob, thanks for explaining. I might have a couple of questions, but just for my personal curiosity.
- 871 – Nothing I can say can be the right thing, but thank you for being here and for speaking up. You have been thought about more than you know. Please feel free to read along or post as much or as little as you wish.
- 871-I had to watch for a few days before I could bear no longer to be quiet. I know how you feel, to a degree.
- 874 And what might they be?
- (871) WOW. Thanks for your post. Please send along our warm wishes to Kati and the kids and of course my deepest sympathy for the loss of James to your entire family.
It takes real courage for you to talk here. I for one very much respect that.
And yes…kids are the best. Afterall that is why we do all of this!
- wpflem – I met your girls. I fell in love with all three instantly. The babies are indescribable! Penelope and those cheetos…what a sight!
- yes the girls do have the giggles, poor Bob! Glad he came back though.
Mapette does sound like a Jim Henson creation. She might also be a good character for some of the PSA’s!
Maggie I think I do have the yelp link, but I think I need to create an id on that site so I can read more. What I have read is really human and heartbreaking, and I knew I could relate to kati when I read her post on leggings!
- Kati’s father–thank you for your input. I’ve seen you on T.V. and can see the love you have for your daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren. I’m so sorry for your loss. Really, there aren’t any words.
And, I understand why you would stay in New Mexico. What does one do? Who gets lessons in these things?
I wish your family peace.
- Whoever said people handle their grief in their different ways is so right, but talking about something in a constructive way seems so therapeutic and positive. Kati has a good start already, with her postings she’s done, so perhaps she’ll share more later. How overwhelming to think that you are suddenly the focus of attention across the country and beyond (goes for Sara, too). Seems like a good tactic to fight misinformation and speculation with truth and facts, for one’s peace of mind. Personally, it would be hard for me as I’m private by nature, but this incident has such potential for helping others.
- (877) Hey Bob want to talk about some powertools for a little bit?
- and joeduck is off playing ping pong was it?
- wpflem – do you have an address that we can send messages to Kati? I have some things that I really want to talk to her about. You can email it to me at yodave@charter.net
- 883 ???
- I think that Glenn is still on the Male/Female ratio in here.
- Glenn is still over-estrogened! Please forgive him!
- (886) see (807) I guess you weren’t lurking then. Just good to have some more testosterone in the house!
- JOCOSAR did you just hear that pin drop in here???
- wpflem
Thanks so much, I always thought kati or her relatives might read this, I have tried to defend her from the less understanding posters here. It really is her story to tell, and in my opinion she doesn’t ever have to talk about it if she doesn’t want to and I hope she knows that most everyone out there understands, can relate and doesn’t expect her to talk about it, but if she did, I would be right there listening intently!
Thanks for your words, please let her know we support her and feel for her.
Thanks.
- (88 Did you get my email btw?
- Please let Katie know that there are going to be many who critize her & James, but this ISN’T the majority, and for her to please try to best to ignore those. I’m not just speaking about on this blog, I’m speaking in general.
My heart goes out to her & her girls. Let her know that my family & I so enjoyed watching James throughout the years, back to Tech TV. I just can’t express my pain for Katie & her babies.
- re871. Of course we understand your reluctance to tell Kati’s story Mr. Fleming. You are so gracious and understanding to be here. And of course you had your reasons that are none of our business for your location during search. It is a very sad story, and I wish your family peace and healing during this impossible time.
- 892 I did..thank you, that was very kind. I swore I responded to it though…it’s been a very long week! Sorry. I meant to! I did truly appreciate all of it. Can’t wait to speak freely.
- 841, 880 – This is one of Kati’s Yelps that I hope it will be more OK to post because it is beautiful – this one about James written 10/11/06, well before any of this nightmare:
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.
5 stars. - Joe…you just gotta love this place! Way to go man. This forum becomes more special every day. Something very positive will come of all of this…it might take a long time but it will happen.
- 897 – Amen, Glenn!
- So we were just discussing if Kati had been on Bear Camp Rd. before… I know people, pathetic.
- 897 – and I would suspect that we will all still be here!!
- We all knew that family members were probably watching. We should always speak as those that we are speaking about will hear.
- (900) yeah and guessing who and what everybody is!
- Nope, after the 5th..I am leaving nothing more to the imagination!!
- 903 – The 5th is circle on my calendar that I need to put up.
- 871
Thank you so much, wpflem – I feel honored that you
are here, and that you have written to us.I have tears in my eyes…
I know what I went through worrying and feeling for
your family, I can hardly imagine what you went
through…Your grand-daughters are truly two of the most precious I have even seen!
And I have never seen a baby as precious as Sabine!(Obviously I haven’t had my own, or I probably wouldn’t be able to say that!)
I understand why you didn’t go to Oregon sooner. It is
best to stay home when under extreme stress, unless
there is more of a reason to leave. Why wait at a strange hotel…I wish So Much Love and Blessings, and Healing to your family…
I am so glad Kati and the girls are safe, but I can’t tell
you how much loosing James broke my heart…So strange, because I didn’t know him – but you could tell
how special he was… - 871 – Thank you, and I surely didn’t mean to imply that you should have been in Oregon, just that I, being impulsive and having to be right in the middle of things, would have had a hard time not going. It just gave me a perspective at the time that James’ father was the take-charge type who had things firmly under control, and everyone felt comfortable with him running the rescue operation he set up. That was a good thing, not a negative.
Your family has handled this entire situation with grace and obvious gratitude for those who helped with the rescue, and if you were online here or elsewhere the day Kati and the girls were found, you know how much we shared in your joy and how awful it was when James was finally located. Please convey to Kati and the girls that many, many people had them in their thoughts and prayers, literally around the clock, during their ordeal and will continue to do so.
- Good night all……….
- Mr. Fleming, if you are still here…can I please ask you a very important question? You don’t have to answer it…
- (903) Isn’t that interesting…on the 5th you won’t plead the 5th but with all the questions you probably want to have a 5th.
- 909 – Glenn LOL
- Glenn, you kill me…once again…truly male!
- I might still be in Medford on the 5th. But probably will come home before that. Otherwize I might go hike Big Windy while I’m there. NOT!!!
- JoCo… so get with it! What?!
- there should be signs for people like you!
- 908 – Maybe it depends on the question…
- Oh gnight Bob, we’re such flakes tonight.
- Strange attitudes and tone, considering who we have in our midst.
- Kati is inundated with emails and letters so it would be unwise for me to give that information out. Understand, I would be in big trouble.
I think I can say that Kati did think her parents looked like country bumpkins on the TV as she viewed us from the hospital, but she had maintained a great attitude about us. Actually we are usually well groomed professional people: elementary teacher / doctor. I was growing the white beard to play Santa Claus with Penelope. I had to sacrifice it shortly after flying to Oregon because we were all being cautious about avoiding the press. I had no scissors and only 4 Bic razors available in our hideaway home. Ouch, it was slow and slightly painful getting it off. Penelope watched. I look forward to growing it back next season. I kind of like the backcountry, old man look.
- ok, I’ll try…
Mr Fleming, I was intimately involved in the Search for your family. Because there is an active investigation into the search, I cannot reveal who I am. What I do want to know though, because I have not heard…how do you and the rest of your immediate family feel about how the search was conducted? I am sure that you don’t have many details on particulars, but with what you know…
I am extremely interested to know your personal opinion. Perhaps it would help me sleep at night? - 918 – Bless your heart. I see where Kati gets the humor and charm that comes through on the things she’s written on Yelp.
- re840: “378 I have not posted for a long time, just reading. Before Mr. Kim was found I post to J.D. that I also thought he was headed towards the river. The next morning I had a email from down south asking me to call them, which I did. It was a family member asking me if I had any other thoughts where Mr. Kim could be beings I new the area so well. I told them no and did say that he was in a very rough terrain. I then asked this person (which I will not give a name or phone number as this family has suffered enough) if the Kims had been over this route before and he said yes. Please do not ask me who this was because I will not give any info. Bob
Comment by Bob Hollenbeck | December 27, 2006″
So that’s it, nothing else on the subject?
- (921) Yep that’s it. What there was is all gone and there isn’t any more!
- Bob, what made you think to ask them if Kim’s had been on Bear Camp Rd before?
- wpflem – if you want to respond to my question via email, my offer still stands to email me at yodave@charter.net. I will keep your information completely private. I know that you have no reason to trust me over anyone else…maybe others here could vouch for me???
- re922: How would you know Glenn? I was talking to Bob.
- Oh Kati’s Dad, that is so sweet. No, you did NOT look like country bumpkins, you just looked like hip parents who perhaps weren’t used to being on CNN (good for you!) And you wore the backcountry look very well.
Give our best wishes to Kati. It must be strange to suddenly be in the limelight under such awful circumstances. I have a feeling, given her obvious charisma, that she will pull through and give this tragedy its proper memorial in her own words.
- 924 – None of us have any idea who the heck she is because she can’t tell us, but we (or at least I) do believe that she was an active person involved in the search, cares deeply about all of you (as I think we all do), and would sleep better if she knew that she’d done some good. JoCo, how’s that?
- vouch
- Deleted at request of D.H.
- I know who she is and I can tell ya that she was and is VERY involved in the search and is a very trust worthy person to talk with……
- 927 – that was perfect. thank you.
928 – Tara, you kill me. - 818 – Would only assume male because so many associate “rat” with men. Clearly bad assumption.
River Co. on the Rogue…hmmmmm. Used to guide on the Deschutes, Upper Clack, White Salmon & before that rivers in WA, but don’t know many of the Rogue Outfitters.
-
- Wpflem,
I saw you on Tv too. You both seem like great parents and grandparents to have!
All the girls are so lucky to have you after something so traumatic and I’m really so happy that you have posted here. All this time I have felt I could understand Kati but I dont even know her. I’m just happy your out there and she has someone to fall back on during this hard time.
I dont even know what to say! I’m just happy to hear your words whatever you choose to disclose. I hope the negative, though few, posters on this site and elsewhere out there do not get to Kati emotionally and that you all stay strong for her. Your attitude sounds perfect to me and is a relief to me that she has you.
-
- 932- Well I am an outfitter I got and MRP number and all!!!
- Ok I think I just heard that pin drop again in here!
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Nah then who would we talk to!!
- At this point from what I know now I would vouch for Sara R…not sure I can vouch for JoCoSAR as I do not really know who that is.
- I’m having a terrible identity crisis!!!
-
-
- (947) Look into the mirror and take a moment to reflect upon it. You will figure it out. Hey did you know that you can never really see your own face? You will only ever see a reflection or image of it…never the real thing.
-
Comment by Joy | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 12:30 am –> | Edit
- I can touch my nose with my tongue though…doesn’t that count?
- I can curl my tongue!!!! Do I count?
- (952) That and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee!!! LOL
- Wow.
- I can count…1,2,3,4,5,
- I want to know where the heck you get coffee for a buck fifty!!!!!
- A shame.
Oh well, I hope you do stop in again, Kati’s Dad.
-
- 951 – LOL, yes, Joy. It was one of many, though, which is why I couldn’t help but ask. I sincerely hope that either it’s all a joke or that everyone is OK with it that needs to be.
- I am surprised Joe Duck is not around here somewhere…
926, 934
I agree!
- I feel like I’ve logged onto some weird version of “The View”. Very nice to hear from Kati’s family, welcome and thank you for joining us. I go away for a few hours and all h— breaks loose…Bob H. has even rejoined the fray (welcome back Bob). And now there’s another river rat besides myself…all kinds of stuff going on!
- Ok so how about them Yankees??? Good team huh!
- 962 – Paul, I know. Ya know how you mentioned being on here too much? This is why. If you go away, stuff happens, things become known, people show up.
- (95 I don’t think anyone that is on here now means any disrespect with any of this.
Many of us have countless hours involved in this and other similar situations. Having Kati’s dad post tonight was such a positive thing and it was like a breath of fresh air – I just think we are all responding to something so positive.
For a while this was the biggest downer going…still very sad but at some point we all need a break.
I don’t see any shame here.
- Yeah, but I think Glenn and I are in a distinct minority…surrounded by women. hmmmmmm
- glenn – check your email.
- Glenn- I agree knowing your past involvment with some SAR type stuff you understand that some times you just have to laugh it off everyone deals in there own ways!
- Fair enough. I can only comment on the Fleming side. I really have no knowledge of the Kim view as it relates to the search.
Sandy and I are extraordinarily grateful for all the public, private, and individual efforts and resources that went into the search for our beloved, once lost family. James and Kati found themselves in a terrible predicament that many of us might have landed in under similar circumstances. I think it is very unproductive for us to look back critically and assign blame for action or inaction that may have saved James’ life. However, it may benefit others to do a thorough postmortum on this ordeal, not to lay blame for what might have been but with a constructive eye to improve process in future cases.
I would like to say over and over how I am profoundly grateful we are to the private helicopter pilot who found our girls.
I also want to clarify that I don’t have much first hand knowledge of the search and rescue facts in this case. I saw essentially nothing on TV while the case was ongoing. We had limited TV reception in Oregon and we were sensitive to the presence of the children.
I did find it most interesting to follow the story of the three lost climbers on Mt. Hood. I can only imagine all the real-time media attention this case must have received.
In summary, I would say to you JOCoSAR sleep well just knowing that you were an active participant in the search. We lost a wonderful person and someone I thought of as I do my own son. But without all the work, this story could have been much worse. I sank to that level of desperation agony without any real hope in my mind for many hours prior to the discovery of the girls alive. At least we still have James’ manifest in those precious little girls and I suppose that is largely what life is all about.
- Joy, I don’t think that any of us have said or done anything disrespectful at all. I think that Mr. Fleming sounds like he has a great sense of humor. I think that he may be laughing with us. Remember that he has probably been watching us all for quite some time…he knows us better than who we have been for just the last hour.
- 965 – Glenn, even if I’m pretty sure this isn’t what Joe had in mind, I agree with you that none of us mean any disrespect whatsoever. We’ve been hashing this thing out for weeks, all of us constantly thinking about the Kim’s. Kati’s dad shows up and is very charming and real and supportive of his daughter in a way you can tell will help make things a little closer to OK for her and the girls, and that’s a happy thing.
- Mr. Fleming – thank you, I think that we all needed that. I know I did.
- 964 – there is this small thing called sleep…I keep getting too little of it because I jump in before bed and something monumental happens, like Kati’s dad signing in, and I’m online for far too long.
- You should know, whether you believe it or not, you all have become part of our families over the past several weeks. We truly love you all. Thank you for sharing.
-
- 969 – Thank you, Mr. Fleming. We are so glad that you are here. I think Kati has a great “rock” to lean on in you. We rejoiced right along with you when the girls were found, and I think James will live on through them, too.
- (969) Thanks again for your post and perspective…it means a lot to many of us here. Amazing that you took the time to come and talk to us. Thanks again and I sincerely hope you haven’t taken offense to our frolicking this evening…we really needed something positive and you delivered that in spades!
It is the goal of many of us here to try to do something that has long-term value and can make a difference for someone in the future that finds themselves lost and in need of help.
- wpflem – If PacNWer shows up again, just don’t read it.
-
- D.H. I replied…
-
-
- 965
It’s just important to remember what’s decent and
respectful…There’s a time and a place for everything…
I don’t know how wpflem feels, but… it’s all
gotten kind of out of control.And, I have been kind of suprised – I would be
interested in knowing Joe Duck’s opinion… - OK, all better.
-
- (967) ditto
- Well, I don’t need to remind anyone to check their email, so I’ll just say goodnight, and thanks again, Kati’s Dad, for stopping in and posting.
- 983
Once again I am behind…
- 973 – Paul, me, too. So much!
- Glenn, didn’t get it…
-
- Yes, I too must sleep. It has been one very lively evening! I think we may have set some kind of record for the speed with which this page got to 1000 (almost there now….). Goodnight.
- Sleep is over rated!!
- This is suddenly no fun whatsoever.
- (983) Absolutely true. For people on the line – humor is an amazing tool and is sometimes the only tool that can get you through. For SAR and Emergency Services personnel sometimes they can be de-sensatized to others in a given situation – they have to – it is a form of defense otherwise the job eats you up.
No exaggeration Lisa it almost ate me up. Dreams almost every day for two years just because one really lousy week + 2 days.
Not trying to make an excuse – just asking for understanding and an open mind. All of us here are now connected whether we like it or not because of this tragedy.
To be respectful and decent means we need to make something positive out of this now.
I fully respect and understand your position.
- Oh Tara WHERE ARE YOU????
- (990) ok I’ll bite?
- BTW ladies if and when I get to JoCo…we have some patches to swap.
- 991 – D.H., I tried to present it delicately out of concern – truly. Perhaps I failed, and if it came across as something other than concern, then I do apologize. JoCoSAR has endeared herself to me in a way that I didn’t want to see her in jeopardy. She’s cool with it, so I am, too.
- 983
I don’t mean to take away from anyone’s fun –
I just needed to voice those ideas… - 993 – Sleep is in short supply because of this all-addicting blog stealing it away from me (ok, I let it steal it away from me).
- (1000) cool with me…no problemo here!
You made good points.
- 997 – nevermind…I got it now…
- (1001) Yes I was going to bed hours ago…and I have to leave shortly…like now. Gnite all. Thanks and take care.
- 1001 – Paul, I knew you wouldn’t really go to bed.
- There is seemingly so much going on “offline” betwixt parties that it is getting hard to follow the line of conversation “online”.
- Nite Glenn nice meeting ya~
- So for anyone who hasn’t gone to bed yet – can you imagine his face when Joe checks the comments and realizes how many this quick?
- (100 We should all swear…Joe will drop in his tracks…ah…I didn’t mean that…please nobody swear…ok
- Glenn, are you really leaving?
- LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Glenn.
- Paul – there really isn’t much going on offline…really.
- (1010) I am on the east coast…3am here! LOL. I have to get up early take my daughter to the airport…yikes! I still have a house full of guests – they think I am nuts already.
- Just so you know, I never type LOL unless I am laughing hard enough to hack up a lung.
- It IS challenging to tear oneself away from a room full of interesting and intelligent ladies, but I truly must say goodnight.
- Goodnight all! Cept me for a bit more.
- (1014) TMI – LOL
(1010) But I will be back at 6am to see if your still JoCoSAR…see if you can hang with the GUYS.
- I am not tired but I think Tara fell asleep, she let that other eye close!
- I usually don’t check in until about 11am. Tomorrow should be a very busy day, may not be around here much. I can’t wait to see Joe’s reaction though…
- Wow, what a night it’s been. This is why I can’t leave. It’s almost late enough to be safe.
- Wow! I guess I have to sit on this blog 24/7 to keep up!
Dr. Fleming it’s really nice that you are here, thanks for participating in this blog “community” that is on balance really supportive of Kati and your grandchildren. Those of us with kids (and without I’m sure) can only imagine how difficult it must have been to be up there for so long.
Also great to see RogueRiverRat as another search insider.
D.H. I erased the post about a half hour ago but until you/others “refresh” the screen it’ll stay up. Remember I can’t be here all the time.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:12 am –> | Edit - I have my interview with the investigator tomorrow, they said it should take at least 1/2 day!! That’s good news! I can’t wait! Sorry, but in this case, I would much rather be there than here!
- Glenn – you’re on the East Coast !?!?!?…and I thought I was nuts.
- 1021 – We were just talking about you. How’d we do, Joe?
- OH geez Joe…welcome back! We really missed you!
- re1021: Thank you for rescuing me Joe, I try not to make it necessary again.
- 1023 – Paul, I thought you went to bed??
1022 – JoCo, I bet you will be glad to get the process further down the path to some relief. And closer to answers for all of us.
- Hey, I played good table tennis but there was more excitement here. Great stuff!
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:15 am –> | Edit
- Hi Joe –
Did we set a Joe Duck speed record getting to 1000 ? - I’ll have to put up a new page for tomorrow…. if this keeps up we may have some sort of comment record. Now more than 3000 comments!
.. and yes Paul I think tonight had the most comments per hour I’ve ever seen anywhere except major forums. Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:16 am –> | Edit - Thank you for the welcome Joe, however I have to blame it on JOCOSAR for my presence here……JOCOSAR needed an addict buddy for this place
- 1027 – I’m going, truly I am going…Joe, have fun with the ladies.
- 1030 – Did you ever in your wildest think you’d get so many comments? This is amazing. And you’ve been amazing having us here. About every 1000 comments or so I think you should hear that before putting up a new page
- Goodnight Paul!
- ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz – Thx Maggie
- Bye Paul, thanks Maggie! RogueRiverRat JoCoSAR really brought back a huge amount of interest here and everybody really has appreciated the comments and the obvious sincere concern you SAR folks brought to the Kim search process.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:20 am –> | Edit
- Hey Joe, any chance you might check your email??
- JoCoSAR and RogueRiverRat feel free to repost this link to your online sign up forms for SAR teams:
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:21 am –> | Edit - Well it has been a true interesting experience for me since I have only been able to talk to two people about the search and roles played in it and to hear others concerns and not just media is nice
- JoCoSAR – I just got your mail and will take care of that shortly …
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:24 am –> | Edit
- Tara is your one eye still open??
- RogueRiverRat I also want to make sure you understand that a lot more people are reading here than commenting. It “feels” like a small group but about 2000 people come every day to read various posts and comments, mostly about the Kim Search.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:26 am –> | Edit
- Well, I know my friends wouldn’t understand. Glad to know my addiction to this blog is not completley abnormal! This has been an exciting night (all relative I guess, depending on how you see life!)
Paul, you crack me up. Yes you are surrounded by some fascinating ladies, it must be hard to break away!
I am not as addicted as I was in the beginning, but Maggie and Paul, and everyone else reading with one eye, well I am a light sleeper anyway, but I share your issues! well, not issues, I dont mean it like that…you know what I mean!
Good night, if your really gone!
- Thank you for letting me know, as I said JOCOSAR turned me on to this and she informed me of the same thing.
- it is strange how we can be sitting here chatting with the same several folks, and then all of a sudden..someone totally new pipes in. It is so cool!!
- 969
Thank you wpflem – I agree with you wholeheartedly
that learning and not blame is most important, and
will ultimately do the most to honor James. That is
why I personally, am here – because I wanted to help
in someway – anyway that I could.I wanted to try to do something for James…
And it is so true that he lives on in those precious
little girls…It is even nice that there is so much video of him that
they can watch when they want, as they grow…I believe you exemplify the best attitude, and as a doctor
you must be practiced with these issues, but it is always
different when it is with your own family.I am so happy that Kati and the girls have you and your
wife. When I saw you on tv, you both just shone through as
such tremendously good people who were still very concerned for James. I did not see country bumpkins… although I
also loved the beard story…I am not even sure if you are still here, but I just wanted
to thank you again…Goodnight All ~
- 1036+ – It really is nice having different angles to see. I think many of our minds have changed more than once since things started unfolding to now based on what we were hearing. Just for me, at first, there was little criticism of how things were going because that wasn’t even the focus, then the questions came after James was found, then *the* Oregonian article which seemed to give voice to many of our questions and explain things one way, and then hearing from the mysterious JoCoSAR who was clearly the real deal with plenty of explanations for things that no one else could have and making sense and just being a real person who cared about helping and likable on top of that. Suddenly, most things became unsure and my mind was opened once again. All that’s gone on here (well, that plus about a million other things, too). This has been such a great place. No one else around me is talking about this anymore, but here everyone is. It’s the right place, and it keeps getting different every day not knowing who will show up or what will be said. Very cool.
- very well said Maggie. Thank you.
- 1043 – It’s OK, mapper, you can say it – we have some of the same issues (actually, it is a little eerie…).
- 1049 — and your even from illinois!
- 1050 – Yep! And then the thing tonight about culture. Issues
- So what if you all knew all this hard work went into the search and those FEW paid people who put their hear and soul into the work on the search were to be laid off in January??
- 1052 – Joe, is the word sucks allowed here? If not, I’ll just say that I really think that would be very unfortunate, and I would wonder why.
- #1052: Are you kidding?
- Because of lack of funding!
- No joke at all…..
- re1052- If that were true, I’d say what’s this state/county coming to, anyway?
- All county employees got a “pre-pink” slip today saying 100 people will be laid off
- 1055 – OK, I’m going to sound ignorant here, but I don’t really get it. People like you are needed. So then what happens?
- Well we ask ourself that EVERY DAY
- Oh No… that puts all our fancy ideas into an entirely new light…
- 1052
well, I would reserve judgement on that til I read about the investigation.
It would be sad, no matter what. But unfortnatley these are the risks of public work. We have to be ready to be scrutinzed and its not always fair. Its my belief the protocol should be blamed and not the employees (from what I understand and have read), if anything is to be under scrutiny here.
I believe, maybe too optimistically, that if anyone is fired they will move on to better and brighter opportunities with many lessons learned about the public sector and SAR in general, maybe even a better life. But that is the optimist in me.
- JoCo, I have one question (I may have already asked it here, it’s late) that I’m not sure has been mentioned per se. Are 4WD clubs utilized in your SAR operations? Obviously you must get lots of volunteers including such folks, but I guess I’m thinking of clubs that could have their members attend training and be certed or approved to assist. You wouldn’t have to start from square one with them, and they’re already used to teaming up with each other in remote areas. I was thinking in particular of clearing that tangle of roads off Bear Camp Road or of course the more general road searches before it was narrowed to that area.
My family was active in 4 wheeling some years ago, and our club and others were always looking for public service projects, i.e. cleaning out and repairing guzzlers, etc. The clubs have radios (ours did, I should say), the participants have been “trailboss” at one time or another, and it just seems a good fit. Hopefully this is already happening, I was just curious.
- Which 100 people? How many co. employees are there? So they aren’t saying exactly who yet?
- Well SAR is a non-profit organization that is associated with the Sheriffs department, so instead of having someone like Sara R. to cordinate us and that be close to her soul job we would have some road deputy who wouldn’t give us the time or day
- Sure Maggie it’s allowed. I’m mostly just against personal attacks and will probably bleep out “profanity”.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:40 am –> | Edit
- 1062
I hadn’t read your further comments before posting this. People are being laid off due to funding, nothing to do with the Kim case?That sounds suspicous to me.
- 1064-Oh who knows the total amount but your looking at our patrol deputies being impacted, dispatch, emergancy services, records and so on……
- re1062: No, I think the reason is lack of funding, not performance issues. They just used the last of the fed/state funding they were getting this year.
- I tried to copy and paste the letter, but it’s a pdf..didn’t work.
- Folks – I deleted the text of a handful of comments made last night. OK to email me if you have questions about why your comment was deleted: jhunkins@gmail.com
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:43 am –> | Edit
- No not tied to the Kim Search just bad timeing for it all, it is something we face each year around this time HOWEVER it will be VERY real this time, and SAR will most likely be impacted from it all.
- 1063 – that’s how jocosar started in 1967. I don’t know enough about 4×4 clubs to answer really. Sounds great!! I am not even sure if we have those here???
- 1072
Its sad indeed. 100 hundred people is an awful lot of people.
If funding is that sparse, its all the more reason for the USFS, BLM, and ODOT contribute as much as they can to prevention by way of signage and mapping. I hope there is enough pressure on the richer agencies to do their part.
- You would be looking at lact of communication with the sheriff dept to SAR and lack of leadership…..Possible delays in the usage of the team also
- JoCoSAR – for PDFs the best thing is to just create a link to the page. We could link to the PDFs but if we get much more traffic here this might put minor strain on the JoCo server because those PDFs are huge and many people would click out of curiosity. Probably NOT a problem though but you might want to ask your IT if they are OK with a few hundred downloads of the PDFs in a short period of time.
Here’s the page: http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:47 am –> | Edit - RE: lack of funding
I’m really not even sure what to say. I know so little about any kind of a solution. Such scary thing. It sounds like there is some cooperation between counties – does that come into play when this happens? - Joe – I really don’t have access to that type of IT resource. It came in an email this morning and I don’t suppose they are going to want to post it on our website. Oh well..
- Well……not really….unfortunately funding stays in each county they can’t share that really, but they can share their searches just as the Kim where we had MANY counties participating they can call us to use us but can’t give us money or leadership
- Well then, if they get rid of paid SAR/Emergency personnel, then I guess it would all fall on the Sheriff dept. anyway. It might just be semantics. But I’m sure the people laid off wouldn’t consider it semantics. It would further cripple an already seriously underfunded dept., I would think. Like the way they cut back number of State Police a couple of years ago. This year suddenly the Governor finds more money and wants to hire more State Police.
Now let me get this straight… is Sara specifically being laid off, or just potentially laid off?
- Well….All 100 are POTENTIALLY to be laid off
- Joe, is there a way to copy and paste the text?
- Wow, Medford is in dire strates to, having to get rid of some libraries… right after the built a really expensive main library.
- JoCoSAR – don’t worry about the IT stuff – the PDFs are already online at the JoCo website so all I’m talking about are links from here to there to encourage people to sign up like RogueRiverRat was doing earlier. But of course only a handful of the folks here are in Josephine County. I’m over in Talent but most of the active commenters are from far away and probably most of the readers as well.
Yes you could copy and paste the text (open in Adobe, then use the “copy text” tool which is near center of toolbar and let’s you drag over text) but it would not be very usable as a printed form…
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:53 am –> | Edit - Well we have lost ours already and our fairgrounds is next…Its a county thing
- Talent is a good city I use to work there!
- I know that our apps are online already, but I dont believe that they will publicly post this letter…that’s all.
- D.H. County budgets all through Southern Oregon are getting cut hugely because we are losing the federal funding that has replaced taxes lost when timber lands were locked up by the feds (called O and C funding). It’s a very big deal here.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 1:57 am –> | Edit
- RE: PDF
JoCo, do you mean that the emailed the letter to you as a .pdf, so it’s not posted but also not able to copy and paste because it’s protected? - JoCoSAR I missed something and didn’t read about the letter. Yes, any email can be cut and pasted into the comment box BUT of course make sure it’s not a confidential doc. There may be a county policy about sending/posting county info in that fashion even if it was not sent as “confidential”.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 2:01 am –> | Edit
- Thanks Joe #1088.
- copying pdf …take a screenshot of the pdf text and post the image at a free image hosting service and link the url here… that should work OK
- Joe, I can forward you the email and you tell me what you think… there is no policy about that..that I know of…
- Do D JOCOSAR tells me your a mobil DJ is that true??
- So is what I ment not DO…its getting late!
- JoCo – Like Joe said, if it’s not confidential, was sent to you as an email attachment and you want help posting a picture of it, I could help if you wanted to shoot it to me.
- in yer box
- 1093 – To Joe, even better. He’s da man!
- re1094: yes, I confess, a mobile DJ for weddings, parties, schools.
- 1099-
Very Cool job!! - So R.R.R., do you need a mobile DJ? Fund raising dance or something? Let me know, I’ll do it for SAR/Sheriff of JoCo for free if I’m available.
- Well if we need one for SAR I will look you up, HOWEVER I do run a resort and its always good to know DJ’s for special events are you willing to travel??
- Yeah, it’s kinda fun, I can keep em dancin’!
- Very nice, always like a good beat going on…..Did everyone fall asleep on here its just us girls???
- Yeah, I can travel most times of year. That’d be cool.
- Ok can some one translate for me please what does IMHO stand for??
- They may have gone to sleep I guess. DeemazonDJs.com.
- In My Humble Opinion
- Aaahhh ok I get most the lingo some how I missed that one.
- I’m here. Will regret in AM. But I’m here.
- uuuummm its the AM….hehehe
- Just ’cause Glenn’s on the East Coast is no excuse, it’s only a wee bit after 4 there. It HAS been a long night, though, lots of excitement and the unexpected…
- I think I’m crashin pretty soon too. See you all tomorrow!
- It was nice chatting with you D……
- Ohhhh Tara did you go to bed??? Did that other eye close on ya??
- Ha – I’m not asleep yet but should be!
JoCoSAR I got the letter and will see about posting it. It’s not a PDF so need to post the image which I can do at a different page and then link it up. I can do it in the morning. Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 2:18 am –> | Edit - Goodnight D.H.!
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 2:18 am –> | Edit
- 1112 – I’ll second that, Madeleine!
- Well we seem to have narrowed down to one time zone now…
- Reminds me of the article I read recently that women get less sleep, and have a much more difficult time in the a.m. than men do, generally.
hey, its after 3 here in the central time zone! Luckily I have a very flexible job but I am not good at managing my time!
- Ooopps Sorry! Was it Mappette now??
- yes, I may do a name change tonight, into mapette, hopefully everyone can follow!
- OK, I give up, it’s a wrap for me, g’night, all.
- Goodnight all, I need to set up a new page for tomorrow’s comments. OK to leave more comments here until you see the links to the new comments page.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 2:23 am –> | Edit
- Well then it has been a real treat however I mist travel to my own home…..
- good night all, thanks joe. I’ll be interested to hear everyones reaction that missed tonight’s activities!
- I must sleep immediately. Tomorrow trying to work while peeking and posting here is going to be more difficult. Good night to all!
- Goodnight all I must travel to my own home now, JOCOSAR is kicking me out of their house…I shall check back soon……as long as JOCOSAR keeps me hooked to this dang thing!
- 1126 – OH, now THAT will be something, huh?? Like I said, can’t miss a minute sometimes… Stuff happens here.
- 1128 – I have to ask before I sleep – were you two sharing one computer this whole time??
- Nope two in one room!
- OK, now I can sleep. Goodnight all!
- It would be JOCOSAR’s house that has a room with THREE computers hooked to the internet remember all in ONE room!!!! However we chat and have been working on our search paperwork at the same time AND carring on our own conversations seperatly! Now thats Talent@
- I’m impressed! And now I’m really going to sleep.
- IMPORTANT!
IMPORTANT!We have passed 1000 comments on this page so I’m moving the discussion to a FOURTH comments page here:
IMPORTANT!
PLEASE DO NOT leave more comments here. Go to the NEW PAGE above to leave comments!
I was having trouble closing off the comments box without losing comments so it’s staying up for now.
Comment by joeduck | December 28, 2006 <!– @ 2:54 am –> | Edit
Comment by Kip | December 25, 2006 <!– @ 
Comment by Bill | December 26, 2006 <!– @ 
Joe Duck 
The Kim Family Search discussion now spans 3 pages of comments.
You are on page 3 of the comments.
Yay, a whole new page for another 1000+! Thank you, Joe.
Frances Ill email you the link. shoot me an email at Harley168@hotmail.com
Sigh… I will never catch up…
What were the comments Katie Kim made in her blog about her in-laws? I have looked through here and all I can find is a link which doesn’t work (blog taken down)?
I’ve looked through the net and all I can find is someone said she was kicked out of her in-laws, didn’t say anything else, but the poster was sort of anti, you know? It sure wasn’t a post I’d put in any faith in but as it has been mentioned here, I was wondering.
To Susan,
I found my reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim
Good morning and Merry Christmas one and all! Merry Christmas JoCoSAR!
Good Christmas morning all! Finally got through all the posts from 1126 forward. Whew! The link to Kati’s blog did not work for me either. 😦 This has to be a very difficult time for her.
http://www.yelp.com/topic/zxXvLvoUV7x4qjjyi0sZhQ
Hopefully that one will work…
Joe not sure why that link isn’t working…if you type it in it will work…
Hopefully this one will take you directly to Kati’s blog.
http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=R2NYGnt_yfMadjJ-2Bc1tA
Thank you, Glenn, you’re a gem. Kati’s first Christmas without James sounds more difficult than I thought.
Of course it is none of my business (although I suppose her putting it on a public blog does put it out there for public comment) but I had a thought that family life might be pretty rough after this. I’m sure there is a need to blame. (Who decided to keep going? Who decided that James should go out and seek help?) A beloved son is gone. The wife (who seems on the artsy, alternative side, perhaps not the ideal daughter in law in certain eyes) is there as a reminder.
Who knows.
(12) When my little brother died people in the family all grieved in different ways, some by getting closer, some by pushing away. You never get over a loss like that, and it does take about two years to actually get back your normal mental and emotional and physical and decision making functioning. And anger and blame and guilt are all normal. Hopefully for the children’s sake, both Kati and the in-laws will get some grief counselling. And hopefully they can learn to forgive each others coping skills during this difficult time. Those little girls will need their paternal grandparents more than ever now.
I had gone to Kati’s yelp site the day they found James.
That day on the side where it lists little facts
about her, and it says ‘favorite crush’ she had written,
‘Farrell always’ I presumed she meant Will Farrell.
Because she definitely seems to appreciate humor.
But I noticed when I looked today, her ‘favorite crush’
was ‘her winged soldier’, and that broke my heart all over
again…
May James’ family and Kati find a way to get together in love today. And may the children have comfort and peace today.
(13.) Susan, I hear you and agree. I have lost 2 brothers, one young in 1976 (murdered) and one adult in 2001 (suicide), and one granddaughter in 2006 (suicide) and you are so right. I think often the manner of passing has a lot to do with it, too.
#13 – Sudden and unexpected deaths, are harder than those seen coming. Couple that with James trying to save the lives of his family and it has to be a very difficult burden. The holidays make it harder as it is so much a time for family. Our family had a sudden loss near Thanksgiving and that holiday never felt the same for the longest time. I would agree with Susan’s comment – it takes a solid two years for any sense of normal to return. Christmas and Thanksgiving are going to be tough holidays for the Kim family for some time to come, but time has a way of healing the deepest of hurts.
It’s a long time ago now, but my wife and I lost our youngest son because of cancer when he was 4 years old. Took me 20 years before I was able to share the anguish that I didn’t even know was inside of me. My wife, now x, I don’t think ever got over it. She immersed herself in a spiritual quest that took her away from me and my two young, at the time, boys. She’s still at it. Doing some good work, though, I think.
Well, she did say “grieving” in laws, seeming to acknowledge that they are not themselves right now. I have to say, though, kicking out the grandkids…ouch.
Lisa, her profile has some other heartbreaking notes, like her last meal, and her most recent read.
Kip and Susan, my deepest, most heartfelt sympathy to you for your losses.
Deleted at Lisa’s request…
Re: 21 addition
At the very end of that I wanted to say:
“And there is nothing to fear with that love, because
it is boundless pure love. It can never be lost – no
matter what. It can always be given, if we choose it.”
Re: 19 Yes, I agree joy – I saw them too, so
poignant.
I wasn’t going to say, because I know Joe removed it for good reason, and I think he is far more right to remove it than I was for posting it, but since it’s being discussed anyway, please notice that it did not say “in-laws” plural, so we do not know who the “in-law” was (probably better that way – certainly none of my business, likely not something Kati would want us all chatting about here). Anyway, that’s all from me on this. I’m sorry.
Merry Christmas!
(23) Hi Maggie…guess I missed something…what was removed?
[20] thank you Gayle. i’m usually reluctant to say very much about that which I mentioned but I’m glad I did. In a way it’s honouring of little Mark. Often it seems the very best go needlessly and sometimes very difficultly. James’s last hours alive must have been horrible beyond words.
Re: 21
We can delete that one too later Joe, I know it is
somewhat off topic. And I will look at the last page
and give you the numbers we can delete from there.
p.s. Kip – Each experience is very different. I didn’t
mean my experience to have any relation to yours. I
just felt moved to share it as well…
Re: 25
It is my hope and belief that James’ last hours were
not necessarily so difficult. It was my experience with
hypothermia that it shuts you down beyond your will,
and it is very frustrating because you can’t control
or have much say in the condition of your body anymore.
But from the fact that he was wearing his backpack
when they found him, and from his position in the
creek he was still on the move. He hadn’t written
any parting notes – it seems to me that he never gave
up, and was trying to the end…
This is what I wrote in my condolences to the Kim
family:
“James Kim is a precious man. He Loves You Very Much.
He Will Always Be With You, and he never gave up…
[I think it is healing to speak or think of a loved one passed
in the present tense, because they are and should be very present to us
as long as we want and need them to be. This is my impression of James.
I was thinking especially of Kati and the girls. But I have a feeling that
everyone who knew James and cared for him will recognize him in these
words.]
Maggie don’t worry, no big deal.
Since people are interested in the Yelp info and with so many posts about it I’ll leave up the link above though I don’t want to encourage this angle on the discussion because IMHO that stuff is best kept in the family even though it is now in a public posting.
Merry Christmas Everybody. I’m now stuffed and happy because the kids really had a fine time today! Hope you all are enjoying a nice holiday day as well.
Joe, you can go ahead and delete (21). I might repost
just the last paragraph.
OK Lisa – I deleted it though it was fine by me. My point before was just trying to have folks keep to the topic of the search and rescue rather than focusing on Kim family private matters.
Yes Joe, thanks! I understand. I think that Christmas
in part, just made people feel more sentimental.
I am glad you had a cozy Christmas!
Here is my last outpouring of sentiment, my Christmas
wish for all those in the world in need of it:
And although it may sound simple and cliche’ the best
way for healing is lots of love. Lots and lots and lots
of love. Endless, boundless love. Not conditional love,
but unconditional love. Love that has no ego, resentment,
or defenses. Love that is Pure Love, full and full and
fuller of love and only love. That is the love that can
heal the greatest pain, the love we all have within us,
and that we can all give to ourselves and others… And there is nothing to fear with this love, because it is boundless pure love. It can never be lost – no matter what. It can always be felt if we open ourselves to it, and given if we choose it…
In our world, that is so full of judgement and criticism,
we don’t get to feel and give this love as often as it is
needed and deserved. And even those who we think may not
deserve it, would most likely be better off if they had received it at the right times. As far as I know, all babies
are born needing and deserving this love. And admittedly or
not, deep down most of us still do… You know it feels
good!
Thanks Lisa, that’s a nice idea for Christmas as well as the other 364 days in the year.
I’ve been following these posts and appreciate all of the discussion immensely. Lots of good ideas coming from everyone, and I think most people here understand that the after-action aspect of this incident should be to learn from rather than point fingers. We have formed ideas about this case based largely upon the information available from the media, which was pretty much all we had, and it’s so good to get some other insight (thanks, JoCoSAR).
I agree we received some more information from JoCoSAR (thanks).
However, we still do not have all the facts, etc and more importantly we do not know who JoCoSAR is or what their motivation, agenda really is?
A lot of us made assessments based on the media reports and have adjusted some of it based on information from JoCoSAR.
Please remember we have no idea who JoCoSAR is. JoCoSAR comes across as a intelligent, thoughtful person and who has been trained to discuss and collect information.
Motiviation seems to be to provide a positive light on Sara R. Hopefully sometime on or around Jan 5th we will receive more details and hopefully JoCoSAR, Sara R, and anyone else involved with JoCoSAR will join us here to discuss.
Afterall we really want to understand what happened so we can help in the future.
I still do not think we have a clear picture of many of the issues. Let’s all hope they will get an objective review and investigation done.
You’re right, you have no idea who JoCoSAR is. I am here for no other reason than to suggest that you keep your minds open to other possibilities. I am not here to change your opinion of Sara R. at all. I am hoping that the report will do that for you. If it does not, then so be it. I just wanted to come here and remind you that as always, there are always two sides to every story. No other motivation Glenn, I promise.
(37) I think most of our minds are open…we can only process what we know. Do you know if the findings will be made public on Jan 5th?
A very good point about two sides of the story. There always are two side and both need to be heard. We can’t wait!!!
Thanks for focusing my thoughts regarding your motivation – it is clear and I look forward to more conversations in the near future.
Thanks.
Re: 34
Yes, that is my wish – that everyone has it when they
need it…
In this country, it would cause a downturn in the
anti-depressant market which is huge, and I think the lack of it is a big reason why depression rates can be so high – I don’t have the quote but I read that they are quite high in the U.S….
Re: 35
I agree learning and making appropriate, effective changes is what is most important, and I think it’s the best way to honor James’ Kim and all those involved…
Quite honestly, with the due date to the Gov’s office on the 5th, the investigators may wait until 5pm on that date. I have not heard any further information about the release. I would imagine that those involved would be able to talk about it openly after that date..assuming the investigation is over by then. I know that an email has already been sent tonight to the investigators regarding getting this thing going! I know that those involved are anxious to get this out in the open. I would hope that with the short deadline for the report, the public release would be quick as well…one can only hope!
(40) Assuming the investigation is completed by the 5th…then I am looking forward to talking with you right here at 5pm on the 5th. 🙂
I agree that I do hope we get to hear more details after Jan 5th. Until then, thanks to JoCoSAR’s contributions here, I’m withholding any judgement and not feeling so certain about the things I thought we “knew” from the media’s reports. Much said by JoCoSAR has sounded very plausible in ways I hadn’t considered, so my mind has been re-opened. It will be interesting to see how much of the report is released and what all is included, and I, too, hope that JoCoSAR and others will join the discussion that’s likely to follow any release of the report’s information.
Thank you Glenn…I will be here on the 5th…looking forward to it!
I dunno, it doesn’t seem that out of line to acknowledge the emotional chaos that was left behind by this incident (particularly the parts that the parties involved are putting out in public. There must be a reason for that. And Yelp is huge and very public, it isn’t a personal blog, like this one.) Without the personal, who really cares about the political wrangling and logistics behind the scenes.
As far as JoCoSAR, I haven’t read through every post, but I certainly acknowledge that the first part of the effort may have been (reasonably) concentrating on the idea that the family must have run off the road, which slowed the search and dictated the emphasis. That certainly made more sense than the reality. I’ll be interested in seeing the report.
(44) Not sure I can go with the run off the road yet.
And if that was the thought – where they prioritized the search is still the issue.
Joe had a good idea where to look…and in the S.C. couple that was missing I had an idea of exactly what happened to them and where to look…
I would say both of those cases have to do with our local knowledge of the areas. I can’t speak for Joe so he might want to elaborate but in the case of the S.C. couple – every time I have been on that highway I have thought many times – if you went off the road here you wouldn’t be found for days.
Also in that case from what I know at this point – LE and EMS both had failures in execution. Granted they probably couldn’t have saved them but they should have found them the AM they went missing.
Remember Glenn…Jo Co didn’t even know that they were missing until Friday the 1st. It seemed crazy at best, that if they were on the road, nobody would have seen them yet. They had remember, been up there for a week already….
I’m not sure either if I mentioned last night or if you had heard of the other “local” who was 99.9% sure that they had seen the Kim’s travelling back down the mountain on Sunday the 26th?
(47) That would be the employee of Sara R.’s husband?
(46) That issue is a whole other discussion…things should have happened long before then – too bad it didn’t but that was before you guys for the most part.
Re:36 Glenn, we are all on the trail of the somewhat elusive “facts” of this incident, and I am glad to know there may be more info forthcoming. Whatever the true identity of JoCoSAR is, it’s good to be reminded that the news outlets report by the seat of their pants during these incidents and accuracy takes a hit. While the Sheriff’s office and Emergency staff are certainly accountable for their actions or lack thereof, I’m also interested in the media handling of such incidents. If they were provided accurate info and chose to run with more dramatic headlines, then they ought to be held accountable as well. I suspect there were some misunderstandings in the heat of the moment as the story unfolded, and hopefully the true story will emerge.
Re: 47
Yes, I think we heard about that at some point – that it
was a friend of Sara R’s husband who thought they saw the
Kims traveling back down?
It seems to me that a fair number of the mistakes in the search had to do with various assumptions that were made
that turned out to be false.
It seems that at times, even potential evidence was not
given enough credibility because of these assumptions.
And that the assumptions influenced even what search
techniques and areas were involved.
I have questions which I know JoCoSAR probably won’t
be able to answer at this time – they are too specific.
But I was wondering if you could answer one question. On
the last page of this blog at one point, discussing motivations involved in moving through the canyon, you said ‘James Kim’s motivation was to save his family.’ ‘Our motivation was to find a missing person.’
I wonder how that potential distinction of ‘trying to find
a missing person’ or persons vs. trying to rescue missing
person(s) affects a search and the urgency involved in
operations.
49 – Madeleine, you make a good point about the media. So much power is placed in their hands to construct the way that they present information to the public, and they are, of course, in a business of selling their stories – there is a balance, but it does seem that there is plenty of room for a little gray here and there in between making a buck with a hint more drama and just telling the truth very objectively.
Re: 50 addition
One assumption being that they would have followed
the signs to the coast and not taken the right at the
fork on 34-8-36 the BLM logging road – not sure I
remember the numbers exactly.
Another assmuption being that James most likely wouldn’t
have made that much progress in the canyon?
If I understand your question correctly Lisa, recovering a person is just as important to SAR as rescuing a person. Granted, a rescue is a much happier ending, but bringing closure to a family is important as well…I think that we search for both close to the same. I know that we handle both circumstances as an emergency. There is no search worse than not finding anyone at all. That is a fairly deep question, maybe I just worded my response wrong? Regardless, what I can tell you about this search specifically, I dont believe that it ever crossed the searchers (or managements) minds that we wouldn’t find James alive.
Hope that answers somewhat?
(51) Unfortunately the media is often left with no choice. They have to push stories to sell newspapers. Think of the alternative if they didn’t do it…we would all be sitting discussing our theories and have no light at the end of tunnel. None of us could have gotten an investigation started,etc…
I have a question open for opinion…Let’s pretend for a moment that the report comes out soon and Sara R. is cleared of any wrong doing. Would it be wise, or even worthwhile to pursue charges such as slander against the Oregonian? I have never followed a case like this, and have no idea what happens in matters like these??
(55) I am a firm believer that no one wins in a lawsuit…PERIOD. The lawyers are the only ones that benefit.
If Sara R. is cleared…I would hope the Oregonian would be fair and report that – I have a feeling a lot of people here would be talking to them to do just that.
The report of the local that saw them drive off the mountain on the 26th…was that “lead” given more weight than other “leads” and if so, why?
51 – Glenn, agreed. It’s kind of an unnecessary unfortunate (I wouldn’t even say evil, just sometimes unfortunate).
55 – JoCoSAR, this is just my thoughts since I have no legal background, but even if the Oregonian didn’t paint Sara R. in a good light, unless they told blatant lies (the phone call is the only one you mentioned), I think it would be tough. I *do* think it would be worth pursuing another report in that case that kind of sets things straight.
57 – oops – I meant a necessary unfortuante… a few days off work and too much candy has addled my brain
Glenn-regarding that particular “lead,” from what I understand of the incident, it was the ONLY “lead” available to Jo Co as of that Saturday (the 2nd). I believe that there is a difference between a “hunch” and a “lead.” This witness, regardless of how he got it reported to authorities, saw photos of the Kim family and positively Id’d them as who he saw…He did not say that he saw them drive off of the mtn, but saw them near the top of the mtn headed not towards the coast, but back towards Galice.
It wasn’t until Sunday that more “leads” were collaborated, such as the Dennys in Roseburg, Edge, etc. All of those were followed up on when shared as well.
(59) So was his eyewitness report correct? Did he see someone else or did he have the day wrong?
I so appreciate the conversation…you all have such good, thought provoking points of view. Sure is much more entertaining than “Deal or No Deal!” Everyone around here is so tired of hearing about the whole search, nobody can talk about it without getting terribly upset or angry! It’s nice to have conversation with people who weren’t directly involved..thank you!
glenn, I can only speculate what was wrong with that witness…maybe on the 6th we can talk about it???
Maybe we are getting into too specific information here, but if you can answer, wasn’t it that Friday (the 1st) that John James called and then met Sara R. saying he’d seen tire tracks at the turn onto the BLM road? Would it have still been considered a hunch?
I saw that yesterday, you were talking about the three evil guys that kept visiting this forum…has anyone gone back and seen PacNWer’s Mail Tribune forum about emergency preparedness?? sounds like he was really trying to help?! Good thoughts there as well…
(64) Any good idea that Pac may or may not have had was totally lost in his approach. Sorry any person that speeds at over 90 mph on our highways and wears it as some sort of badge of honor doesn’t have any credibility.
If he is interested in saving lives he should slow down. After he does that then I would listen to him.
argh, would love to answer that as well Maggie…can’t really get too much into that particular question. I can tell you that it didn’t happen quite that way at all. I can also tell you, just as someone who has been up Bear Camp this time of year, there are/were tracks absolutely everywhere from tree cutters. It’s that time of the year. One other thing to think about…if the Kims drove down a road that Saturday night and it was snowing, and Kati has said that it snowed for two days on them afterward, would tracks on a particular road be an actual clue? Or, would it still just be a “hunch?”
Traveling back down the mountain on Sunday the 26th could technically have been 1am in the morning Sunday. Did the witness say daytime Sunday?
66 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. I wondered with another person about the ability to see old tracks after so much fresh snow falling on them somewhere back on the first page or so of this discussion. I just gave up wondering since the Oregonian said in a 12/10 article that John James and his brother were still able to see them even with snow somehow… But what you said actually makes a lot of sense to me. I think you did mention the Christmas tree cutting this time of year last night – sorry for asking again, though it is a very strong point worth seeing again, I think.
About the three trolls, Pac in particular – yes, I’ve even agreed with some of his points, and over at mailtribune he presents himself well, but over here there is so much hostility surrounding his message that he kind of drowns himself out on that so that he can get back to his real goal over on this blog, which is to irritate people and get responses.
I mean, good grief, every time I think I have the “picture”, something else comes along… for all I know they could have camped at the viewpoint that night and done all their spur traveling in broad daylight the next morning! Argh is right!
(68) I think the point about the tracks on the BLM road was that people got lost up there “all the time” and people didn’t typically go tree hunting on that road. So there were tracks everywhere…where people expected them but a road where they didn’t expect them had one set of tracks.
That is what I have gathered from it…but I wasn’t there so it is speculation on my part.
However, I do know that tire tracks will show up as indentations in the snow even if covered with fresh snow.
67 – Witness reported seeing them at about 1:30pm that Sunday afternoon…
Hey, did you know that it was common practice around here to have a bonfire and drink alot of beer when you take your family up a mountain to cut Christmas trees?? I didn’t either!!Strange things happen here in Southern Oregon!
(71) Too bad the Kim’s didn’t use some of their fuel to get a bonfire going and keep it going!
Point well taken Glenn..not that I haven’t thought that myself. I was only presenting another question. My experience with that road however, is that it is just as likely to be a good tree place as the other hundred spur roads up there…I prefer getting my tree from the Boy Scout lot myself!
Re: 53
Please remember that I think the most important result
is learning and not blaming.
I understand what you’re saying. I may have more questions
after the report depending upon how thorough and open it
is.
I kind of think there is a problem if you “don’t believe it ever crossed the searchers (or managments) minds that we wouldn’t find James alive.” Because at that point, timing was everything.
To be honest, I have been in the beginning stages of
hypothermia, and on Monday, after Kati and the girls were
rescued, I knew that James needed to be found urgently,
with speed both in terms of time and directionally,
if he was going to be found alive.
I watched all the press conferences, and there were a lot of reasons, which to me knowing the urgency needed, sounded like excuses, why there weren’t more people down in the canyon searching it with more efficiency and speed. The Undersheriff seemed to speak, “We’ll find him,” ‘if not tomorrow than the next day.’
I really felt that he and operations were not acting
with that urgency that was necessary to potentially find
James Kim alive.
I heard on Tuesday there were even people in rafts on the
Rogue river. That did not and does not seem like an efficient search technique to me given the known evidence at the time. How easy is it to look into the woods from
a moving raft?
It also sounded like there were personnel on horses, and
snowcat/atv type vehicles who couldn’t go in the canyon
because of that equipment. But when you know he’s most
likely still in the canyon, from all the evidence – why
weren’t these personnel utilized as searchers on foot in
the canyon?
And people said it was dangerous in the canyon. But James,
even in his exremely weakened malnourished pre-hypothermic
condtion was able to make so much progress so ‘quickly’ and
not be injured other than by some bruising, and the eventual
exposure and hypothermia.
I know that James had more motivation for various reasons to move quickly through the canyon, but it is still hard for me to understand why searchers were trailing him so slowly when they knew he had two days advance, why there weren’t more people in the canyon. When I’m sure SAR staff had talked to Kati enough to hear of his plan to try to get down out of the mountains (to Galice).
I heard it would take searchers a long time to hike into
the canyon. If that’s the case, didn’t they think it was
less likely that James hiked back out of it?
These are a lot of the questions I have. I know the
coroner’s estimated guess is that James passed on Monday.
But it is still hard for me to understand how he was able
to make so much more progress than searchers, especially
in that short an amount of time. And there was the hot
spot on Monday night that could have been James.
I know you probably can’t answer most of my questions. I
will wait.
And I know that SAR had the best intentions.
It just seems to me that one lesson that might come from
this is that evidence and potential evidence should have priority over assumptions. Even if that (potential) evidence is from locals and not SAR staff.
70 – Yes, they will show up even with a certain amount of fresh snow, but if it snowed enough to go from parked in rain to trapped in snow overnight where the car stopped, I wonder how much snow fell in the area of that turn. If it was a bunch, I don’t know how much they could have been able to see tracks. You are right, we weren’t there. Sounds plausibly to me either way, all depending on just how much snow fell at that particular fork area.
I do see what you mean about the point being that it was a typical turn where people get lost and that they only saw tracks going in. Sounds like JoCoSAR is having to hold back a little, so maybe there will be something more on that…
(74) Lisa my assessment of the situation is someone decided they wanted to be “in charge” and superceded SOP because of the political benefit that was possible.
Someday we will probably find out who that is…
re 71. Yeah Glenn, me too, but I heard they had trouble collecting wood they could use. I’ve seen people tear the bows off trees and use them, does that really work?
Yikes! Beer, a saw, the forest, more beer, driving with a car full of kids… hmmm, I suppose that’s one way to do Christmas. I’m ashamed to say that I live in Oregon but have pulled my tree out of a box the past few years…
78 – oh, and fire… in the forest. I missed that point. Oy!
(76) should have included…
superceeded SOP and “normal” roles of people typically in place for this type of operation.
If Sara R’s role was diminished because of this – it will create a demoralizing ripple affect throughout the entire operation…
Oh man…. are you saying the Kims were looking for a Christmas tree? Just kidding, sorry. 🙂
(77) Bows will burn…create a lot of smoke too. Sap will burn too. Depends on how much snow and ice has collected on the trees.
First priority in that situation is fire and sustainable fire. Protection from cold and in a lot of cases your only protection from wildlife.
That is what surprised me about the trek in the valley – I would think James would have needed fire to keep the bears at bay at night.
JoCoSAR was there any evidence of fire from where James went?
Wow Lisa, very good questions for sure. I could almost answer every one of them, with at least my knowledge and experience on this search. I would love to go through each and every one of them as soon as I am able. Imagine for a moment how frustrating it is for me to not be able to respond. Please, meet me back here after the 5th and ask these very same questions again.
I am still so surprised at how involved some people are in this case and weren’t even there. It is easy to imagine for someone who lived through it, but I have never seen such interest in an uninvolved party. I guess I too never paid as much attention.
Lisa, you are right for sure about one thing…SAR did have the best intentions. I am glad that nobody is questioning the searchers themselves. The only ones that should have to go through that is the management…that I agree! The searchers in this case, and many others are the most amazing dedicated people you will ever know!
I can point out after reading again, that press conferences are planned events. There is quite a bit of coaching and conversation prior to those events. Please don’t allow yourself to judge the urgency of the search on the tone of the press conferences alone. There was alot that happened behind closed doors that was not seen on camera. Also, the raft question…if James had made it to the river and headed towards Galice, he would assumably be walking along the river, right? Also, there isn’t a road that would drive you right to the mouth of Big Windy Creek…wouldn’t that seem a prudent search method if it was conducted simultaneously with other methods as well?
There were no horses on this search…just another thing that I can confirm…does it make sense that there might be constant road searches by vehicle and ATV 24 hrs/day in case James had walked out of the canyon? Just a “hypothetical..”
80 – Glenn, I totally get what you are saying. Again, maybe I am overly optimistic and naive, but I really would like to think that even if there was such an issue that could affect morale that somehow it wouldn’t affect how hard they did their jobs, knowing which mattered most. It is a good point to mention.
(84) I think the feet on the ground would not allow that to affect them. However the chain of command would certainly be affected and any weakness in chain of command directly affects execution on the ground.
85 – Yes, very true.
Glenn – you do know that he burned his tires, right??
I tried to start a bon fire up there not too long ago. I happened to have flares in my pack..now, I had the option of staying in my heated car at the time, so I wasn’t totally motivated..but still, that cold wet frozen green wood doesn’t like to burn!
OK… partying christmas tree hunting local imbibed too much Sunday afternoon.
Biting my tongue!!!!!!!!
(86) Maybe the questions that should be asked…
Was Sara R. allowed to do her job?
and if she was…would the outcome have been any different?
Sara R.’s job is dynamic..always has been. On most searches, she is all of the roles by herself (just like the search in the same area one week after Kim’s). Would the outcome on this search have been different if she was in charge? One can only wonder. Maybe her job is well enough defined at all. I don’t think that is really what we need to be asking.
I have said before that there are plenty of things that went wrong on this search, many things that will be worked on in the very near future. I don’t think that any of us here in Jo Co would be afraid to give anyone the laundry list of improvements that need to be made. I just think that it would be fair if the correct list be shared.
(87) yes I knew that but I am not going to speculate on any tasks that should have done differently. I think they did an amazing job as it was for how long they were out there and the limited resources they had.
Sorry.
Is that you D.H.? Are you sorry because you can’t tell me if that is you? I don’t have this whole blog etiquitte down yet..
I wonder, hasn’t Randy said that he is from Jackson Co? They do things very much differently over there. I am curious to hear his response. He didn’t say he was Air 1 did he?
He has good things to say…about SAR in general.
re92: uh oh…
Well, I really don’t know how to fix that posting problem. Maybe just start a new reply without replying from button on post box… there’s 2 different reply buttons, try the lower one below the last post. clear as mud. You really need that 1st email they sent you for the link to activate… or sign in to your account if you can… or click on my controls at top of page… trying to help you out here. dam it.
If you mean Randy Jones, he is a volunteer pilot over in Jackson County. I don’t know that I’ve seen him on this blog, though.
re:97 Air 1 … no… Randy hinted around that and mentioned Air 1, but SAR people seem to not want to reveal themselves for some reason…
I never got that first email..I have looked in my spam folder too! Oh well, this one is so much more user friendly..thanks to Joe…it’s much like IM.
I was sorry about my smart aleck #88 post.
I understand the desire for them to keep their identity to themselves…I was just curious if it was Jones. He helped a lot on this search!
Thank you so very much JoCoSAR!
That helps answer some questions and I look forward
to potentially asking more on the 5th, if I still have
them.
For some reason, I was really worried about this family from the beginning, as if I knew them (but I did not).
And it was very recently that I had been thoroughly
into the stages of hypothermia. So, I could really
relate to James’ condition.
I couldn’t help but pay a lot of attention because
I was so concerned. It was actually hard to pay
attention to anything else until he was found.
On a lighter note, I know I heard somewhere in the
media there were horses – and I’m sure you know the
truth! Now I just wish I could remember where I heard
that inaccurate reporting from!
I know JoCoSAR that hindsight is 20/20. And I know especially under pressure, people and groups of people
can make mistakes.
But some of these things were driving me crazy while
the search was going on, and that’s why I look so forward
to hearing the answers. It made me want to contact the
department – but I knew that the public was told not
to. (That’s what my local newscast reported.)
I definitely understand that Sara R tried her best as
she knew at the time, and that she had a more limited role
than has been portrayed.
Again – I thank you so much. There is relief in hearing
answers. I hope there is relief in giving them.
Goodnight ~
You might have to start over with a new screen name, maybe even different email and watch for that confirmation message to come into your mail box.
Lisa – if you were ever told not to contact the department, I don’t believe that it came from the department itself. Remember though, it is only a “department” of one person!
To answer your question about horses, there may have been some that showed up on Monday, but I don’t believe that they were ever sent up the mtn. Did you know that one of the key players at BLM is heavily involved in the SO Posse? His name is Jim Roper, what a resource he is! Amazing wealth of knowledge! Nice to have people like that around…
There is some relief in being here, as I mentioned before. Not being able to answer questions is killing me!
Thanks D.H. Changing my identity again may not even be a bad idea….
JoCoSAR… would you be interested in corporate assistance funds for new warning signs at Bear Camp? I could post at MT saying that anyone wishing to help buy new signs could contact you, but I’d have to have permission from you to say, post your email address. I guess it depends on if you’re in a hurry to get signs up without having to go through red tape for funding and time waiting for signs to be built.
RE#109: I don’t know, this would get all tied up with your identity, maybe we should wait on signs, etc. until after Jan 5th, no need to jeopardize anything for you.
I am actually researching into whether SAR could have any participation in the signage issue at all. It is, as you probably know, BLM and USFS property. Our SAR wants to make it their personal mission to make a difference up there, we just aren’t sure how yet. I am sure that many meetings are to come…I will let you know, I just don’t think that time is now. Thank you for the offer though..
107 – JoCoSAR, I am glad that there is some relief for you to be able to be here saying what you can. It’s definitely given some different insight. I can’t imagine not being able to speak, so at least this is just enough for you to at least get folks thinking.
Thanks Maggie! It does help, I guess that’s why I am still here. I get to get back to work tomorrow…I’ve never been so personally driven to prove a point!
Like I said before, nobody around here wants to talk about it. For the average person on this particular search, we weren’t allowed to grieve for our loss…and it was our loss too…we had to prepare for and search for more missing people up there and then swing right into defensive mode. We can’t wait for it to be over.
Thank you again to everyone for your conversation over the past two days. I know that you have all been here on this site much longer than me…
I must go and get some sleep now..Merry Christmas!
Hope to talk again soon…goodnight!
I looked for the thing your SAR people were supposed to have signed for Sara, but all I saw online was Christmas stuff today… maybe tomorrow, that’s very nice of them to do that. Honorable. When you show up here 5pm on the 5th, you’re not even going to tell us if this was you posting, are you? Good grief, that sentence didn’t make any sense at all. 😦
114 – Well, you can to the right place for people who want to talk about it, that’s certain! This is the only place where I really get to talk about it (though for easier reasons than yours, such as everyone around me has already moved on and isn’t really interested on why I spend hours here…). Your situation would be more rough. I don’t doubt that your sense of loss would have to be pretty strong – if I felt that way and was just reading/watching on TV, anyone actually involved and trying to help had that much more emotion/motivation invested in it. The heaps of blame wouldn’t help any, either, I’d bet.
Merry Christmas, good night.
JoCoSAR, indeed this is a very good group here. I’ve followed this case extensively, but mostly posted elsewhere until I saw how great this site and group is.
It is really surprising, as you said, to find that people who had no personal vested interest in the case have gotten so involved. The case has touched the heart of many, and I think most people just want something positive to come from it. I have a son and his family who travel here from out of state fairly often, and I’ve had a few conversations with them since this happened about their priorities in getting someplace, as well as just plain preparedness.
If we can change the way people communicate in these situations, that will be huge. What often happens when there are multiple agencies involved is that the “big boys” want to take over and the communication is almost never good from then on, or else the top management of the smaller agency places constraints on the hapless person who is purportedly in charge (and taking the immediate heat). Either situation would be frustrating and counterproductive.
JoCoSAR… Below is one of Randy’s posts when searched at MT forums, he is Randy N.
“as a member of jackson county search & rescue, and a member of jackson county mounted search & rescue, we are call 99% on all searches… either we respond with horses, or we respond to search on foot or whatever the need is to be.
for more info on SAR or MSAR, please contact me.
Randy N., EMT-I
jaclson county search & rescue
jackson county mounthed search & rescue”
Does not appear to be Randy Jones.
Great stuff today!
Thanks so much to JoCoSAR for actively participating, and especially for promising to come back after the SAR report comes out on (or just after?) January 5.
This will be one of the most closely examined SAR efforts in history and whatever the outcome I know everybody has enormous respect for the difficulties and the efforts of so many people who participated in that search.
I’ve also become convinced that this blog comment format is better than a forum style setup. More scrolling here but does not require login to comment, searching is easier (use the browser “find on this page”), and to me it seems easier to follow the conversations.
I really appreciate JoCoSAR coming here and talking to
us about our concerns and the situation.
It sounds doubtful that the public will really be able to see the report on Jan. 5th, but I am very much looking
forward to asking JoCoSAR the questions I have and more after the investigation is completed.
I will be so good to really have a full picture and
complete understanding of what authorities were thinking.
I hope there are truly and thoroughly honest in the
investigation.
I guess one way to tell will be if there are still some
important questions left unanswered or unaccounted for.
JoCoSAR agreed there were mistakes. It will be very interesting to hear what those are.
I think that only thorough and true “honesty” will do
justice to what needs to and can be learned from this
story and this case.
There seems to be a question of precision.
I don’t think the road signs adequately communicate information as to the hazardous nature of the area and certainly a sign that simply said ‘to the coast’ would have helped avoid unknowng but inviting detours. Even the locals use of the term ‘Bear Camp Road’ seems to be an imprecise term for a route that encompasses a number of roads of various practical and political designations. Recall perhaps that in Manhattan the politicians may say ‘Avenue of the Americas’ but New Yorkers say ‘Sixth Avenue’. This can confuse 911 operators whose computer recognizes ‘Sixth’ as referring to sixth street in lower Manhattan.
Obviously, some of the mistakes seem inexplicable when we look back and wonder about what now seems obvious to us. A good deal of it was indeed obvious then too. Yet not acted upon.
I wonder about the signals expert from Edge. He apparently started with a 26 mile circle around a cell tower, then considered only the ‘line of sight’ transmission areas and then overlayed the roads and came up with ‘Bear Camp Road’ but the SAR people seemed somehow to have never gotten beyond the ’26 mile circle’ thinking.
The FLIR helicopter was available but utilized. This seems strange. One wonders about asset management skills and prioritization of goals. Some of the problem seems to be a lack of ‘team bulletins’ wherein the SAR coordinator summarized the various leads and assignments then being performed. There really never seems to have been anyone who was checking on the precision factor: What are the routes, how inviting are the spurs, how far along did the snowboarder get, exactly which segments of the road had been covered by search crews and which had not. Were searchers reporting their GPS coordinates or giving estimates of their positions? Someone failed to have adequate survival gear in his car. It was a foolish mistake, but it should not have been a fatal one. And rescue personnel have to be held to higher standards. When someone foolishly smokes in bed we don’t let the fireman stroll in with a pamphlet. There is a time for assessing the situation and acting in a competent manner irrespective of how foolish the initial behavior was.
Re: 122
I agree Joe about the format!
122 – Joe, I love this format, too. It seems so much easier than threaded forums since references to post numbers seem to work well and it’s all in one place to search (well, now 3 pages, but that’s only because we’ve had a lot to say 🙂 ). Thank you again. Is it January 5th yet?
Good morning to all!! I thought I would wake up and it would be the 5th as well…no such luck! Just try to take peace in knowing that those of us involved want this all out too, hell, we were the ones who begged for it to begin with! Now the frusterating part is to let the investigation take its pace. I personally want it to go quickly, however not everyone involved in the investigation has such a strong personal desire for the information to come out…I never have been good at patience! I am more of instant gratification for sure!
Re: 124
Yes, there are a lot of questions still unanswered.
I agree that the signs on the road are not strong enough,
both in number and message.
Road “May Be Blocked” does not equal in common sense,
‘Road Is Blocked,’ unlike the Sheriff’s opinion.
Common sense can be local common sense, and it sounds to
me like that is part of the issue.
I had a feeling that funding was part of why more wasn’t
done to change the signs.
It’s a funding, organizing, commitment, and carry-through
problem. But it’s one that is way past long overdue in being addressed and taken care of more effectively.
That’s interesting Lisa, I have never heard that funding was an issue with correcting the current signage. I have always thought that may sounds more ambiguous than IS! I also never liked that the signs said that Bear Camp Road may be blocked. I think that they changed at least that part last week to say Coastal Route. I don’t think that anywhere on the map says Bear Camp Route?? At least Coastal Route may clue in some others not necessarily paying attention???
Re: 127
Hi JoCoSar! I can understand why you feel that way.
It will be a relief for sure. And that is the good
part of an independent investigation of a group, and
not just one or a couple individuals. The truth is
harder to deny or evade when there is a group of
people who know it.
Good for you to ask for the investigation! I completely
understand why…
I think that in general, time will go by quickly!
124 – Good points. From everything I’ve heard, though, any problems on the SAR end of things was not because they thought that the Kim’s were “foolish.” Nothing I have read or heard has suggested that at all. In fact, I’ve heard only the opposite – that it didn’t matter why/how the Kim’s got there, just that they needed help. I am with you on finding out more about the timeline and precision.
Maggie – I learned a long time ago that if we as SAR spent our time judging why someone needed help, we would be spending all of our time judging and not searching/helping! Unfortunately, it isn’t smart, well prepared people that we assist! Those are far and few between. I guess what I mean is, call it job security or whatever you want, but most of the folks that we look for have active warrants, no license, etc. It is not uncommon for us to drive people off of the mtn only to be met at the bottom by a patrol car to arrest them.
Re: 129
Yes, I’m not sure where I heard about the funding
problem with the signs. At this point after all this
blogging, that might have been someone’s assessment
of some local opinions on government spending, or
something the Sheriff said. (Which at this point,
wouldn’t seem too surprising!)
And I know that local opinions vary and are not all
the same on any issue, so I don’t ever want to give
that impression.
And you do have a lot of SAR efforts and incidents on
Bear Camp don’t you? Even with some locals who should
according to the Sheriff have use more “common sense”?
I suppose that no matter what the signs are, there will
always be some more reckless individuals, but I think
better signage would help to truly deter and warn most people who don’t know the area better.
I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!
132 – I hear you loud and clear, JoCoSAR. That has been my exact impression throughout this discussion as well as in other cases. Of all the questions I have about this, that is not even one of them. I don’t doubt for one moment that the SAR folks want to help, no matter how people wind up in trouble.
Re: 134
Is there anything else besides signage that you
think could be done or improved? Or do you think
that it just happens often that people ‘get in
over their heads’?
I’ll check back in later! I have to go for awhile…
Just thinking out loud, it’s a shame that someone looking for a Christmas tree didn’t venture down that spur road and incidentally find the Kim’s before that last weekend was over.
I didn’t realize that in volunteer SAR “all skills are welcomed, we need support teams, cooks, etc.” – as per an SAR poster at MT forum. That’s cool, I didn’t even think about that. So you don’t have to rapel down a cliff to take part in SAR.
Absolutely not! Who do you think stays at base camp and does paperwork and feeding, etc. I believe that everyone who wants to give is given a chance…
Your musical instrument skills may even come in handy sometime!! 🙂
tara (817) I’m glad that you were able to draw a useful lesson from the Kims’ misdjugments.
mapper (899), how about figuring out a way to get drivers to actually read the warnings on the ODOT map and on signs along they way? I mean, three signs saying “Road May Be Closed in Snow x Miles Ahead” seen while the snow is falling would seem to be understandable to people of the Kims’ shining brilliance, don’t you think? How about a legend on the map saying, “Hey you! Yeah you, the one with the brains! The rules apply to you, too!”
JoCoSAR (1038), you ask if one can be fired for telling the truth. My response is that when people are fired for telling, it’s far more likely to be that they were fired for telling the truth. Be careful. People who tell the truth are often hated more than anyone else.
JoCoSAR and Maggie (1048) isn’t it wonderful that no one will blame SAR and no one will blame the Kims? Why of course not!`We don’t want anyone to be seen as responsible for one death and three close calls. We want everyone to go home feeling good and worrying about nothing. Screw the truth.
And by the way, JoCoSAR, it’s a smart move for you to not blame the Kims in this thread, because all these people who piling the sympathy onto you would turn on you instantly if you were to say something like, “The idiots ignored the highway map, breezed past three warning signs and didn’t even bother to fill the gas tank or check to see if they had some foul-weather clothing in the car before they took their babies on the snowy mountain road in the middle of the night.”
No one here wants to hear that. It would interfere with the TV movie and the Kims’ gracious charity fundraising appeals. We wouldn’t want to do that. Not when there’s money to be made.
Right… in the USAF I considered myself a trained killer with my clarinet.
If you can’t go in the field, you could be trained in Managing Search Operations and participate in the management side of search. Most of our searches are run by volunteers. There simply aren’t the resources to pay the entire management team. Even this search had positions filled by volunteers who are unable to go to the field…
Hey PacNWer..I was just defending you last night. The thread that you started about Emergency Preparedness was awesome..although some weren’t able to stick to topic, but come on now…why do you turn into someone totally different when you come over here?
Hang in there JoCoSAR.
Re: #144. That’s cool, I’ll consider it. I would first have to have the guts to consider myself totally dependable however. And commit to it. That would be a big part of it, and one would absolutely have to be prepared to commit.
Randy the SAR person at MT forum thinks that we have enough government involvement in SAR. He doesn’t want the state run SAR replacing Sheriff responsibility like in Alaska and New Mexico. However, he’s very into a county helping another county.
#142 – Scrooge is back !!
#145 – THAT is a really good question, and one that more than a few of us have pondered over…he does seemingly turn into someone totally different (Jekyl and Hyde come to mind).
#148 – Interagency squabbles, power plays and turf wars all are a reality of local governments. I think New Mexico and Alaska overcome a lot of that by having a central authority.
JoCoSAR, most of the people on this site are playing a particular sort of game. They want to absolve the Kims of responsibility for what happened. Sorry, but that’s a bunch of crapola. If saving lives is the goal, the best way to use the Kim tragedy to save lives is to make it crystal clear that this happened the way it did because of their misjudgments.
Note the plural, misjudgments. This was not a case of a a traveler simply making a wrong turn. There were a series of blunders, which when taken together amount to serious negligence on the part of James and Kati Kim. The result was one life lost and three more almost lost.
That’s the truth. Call it what you will. Cruel, heartless, sociopathatic, what have you. I’ve got a tough hide, I can take it. Look, if I wanted to be popular here I’d cry on cue with the rest of ’em and ooze toward the nobody’s responsible position.
JoCoSAR, it doesn’t much matter to me if you agree or not, or if you like me or defend me or dump on me. I do think you might want to stand back from all of this for a minute and ask yourself what’s going on. Most of the people are are happy to let anyone off the hook as long as no one tells the truth about the Kims, who got one person killed and almost three more — for absolutely no good reason in the world.
If the so-called “Internet community” would coalesce behind telling the truth about this, and insist that clear warnings about misjudgments be broadcast, some lives would be saved. The Kim tragedy looks very much like a product of get-there-itis. They were so intent on making it to their final destination that night that they abandoned elementary common sense and judgment.
That’s the message to send. Not just in the West Coast media, but at rest stops, on highway signs and on the ODOT map. There ought to be a succinct warning about the dangers of get-there-itis. What caused James Kim’s death was closely related to the same thing that causes people to fall asleep and crash their cars late at night.
In the final analysis, while I’m sure that there’ll be some nitpicking around the edges of the SAR operation I doubt they’ll find the SAR effort culpable. This was “pilot error,” the pilots being the Kims. Their friends and well-wishers don’t want to hear it, because it counteracts the hero story and might even get that TV movie deep-sixed.
LOL
Miller time at lunch time.
(145) JoCoSAR, you will notice a big difference depending on the time of day with that bloke!
wink, wink, nudge, nudge
I guess I should add “alcoholic” to the list of what you’ll be called if you should want to tell the truth about the Kims. This is a very compassionate crowd. 🙂
… but of course, my “tone” is objectionable 🙂 🙂
deleted sentence here
Pac, I’ll say just this and then go back to leaving it be, which is what I should probably do anyway but can’t help myself this one time. I agree that you are right that more can and should be done so that people are more aware not to make the mistakes that the Kim’s made and many of us have even made (maybe not you, but I have – hopefully now I won’t again, so it worked for me). I doubt you’ll hear much of an argument on that. I don’t think that means we need to call them every name in the book and ridicule their decisions in order to get the point across – a widow with 2 small children growing up without a dad should be plenty effective if people are going to listen. Which not everyone will – so I’m grateful that SAR’s stance is not to ask why and just try to help. OK, I’m sure I’ll regret even replying, but now I feel better and don’t even need a drink.
(155) deleted
Try to be civil or go elsewhere…
BTW…even though you said what we were doing here wouldn’t help anyone, we couldn’t get anything done, yada yada ya…
JoCoSAR acknowledged that this is very helpful and that our efforts through the Internet could be very helpful as well.
LOL^2
[deleted]
As for JoCoSAR’s opinion about the usefulness of this forum, all I can say is that I am the ONLY poster in more than 2,000 messages who has come up with any ideas that would save lives in the future.
[deleted]
I think most of what PacNWer #151 has stated is true to some degree. No I wouldn’t have said it like that in some sentences, but I have been concerned that the public is trying to put a big rap on SAR that may not be deserved. Even one of the sheriffs (which one???) said that much responsibility does belong with the traveler. Someone also said at MT forum that the Kims couldn’t have gotten further away from Bear Camp rd. if they would have tried. That’s not a criticism of Kims, just might have made it even more challenging to find them.
You know, Randy the SAR guy at MT forum has a pretty good point… quit blabbing and start volunteering… you gotta understand that point of view from someone who has worked so hard and so positively in SAR related jobs for a long, long time.
I think we all probably can see that the Sheriffs may need to control their ego instead of crippling the managers below them. What can we do to solve that besides making this SAR state managed?
(163) deleted
(163) Are you upset that the Governor likes the wiMax idea? If you had any memory and remembered me from the Cellular 1 days you would know I am not a salesman.
You just show how ignorant you really are about the power of net access…if wiMax were deployed do you think James Kim and his family would have been sitting around playing scrabble…well they might have after they were able to tell SAR where they were.
I have nothing to do with the Kim family and have never absolved James of anything he did…he messed up and he is DEAD.
PacNWer you talk about your great ideas…well get one of them done. Ideas are a dime a dozen – executing and making one a reality is all that matters in life. Poor performers always blame their tools!
glenn, I’m afraid you’re breaking the California Karma Code here. Better yet, you’re making me laugh. 🙂
p.s.: Haven’t broken 85 yet, but if you’d like me to go faster I’d give it a try, 🙂
I also don’t understand why there aren’t more corporate business donations to SAR. Wouln’t this be great PR for a business? Is there some political connection to business that SAR doesn’t want? Donating to SAR would be great support for all the time and risk the SAR volunteers take out of their own lives. Donating to SAR would be so much more worthwhile than some things business spends money on.
glenn, no way could one person be able to get the media off of its Lost Hero In the Woods story. Not when the smart set is fully invested in the production. Like I’ve been saying, for you this never has been, is not, and never will be about saving anyone’s life. That is not a consideration on your radar screen or that of most commenters here.
We know what happened out there, and why. There was a window of opportunity to tell the truth, and now that window has pretty much closed. So congrats, Internauts! Some people are going to die because you stuck to the hero line rather than tell the truth and advise others not to do what the Kims did.
That IS the message that would have saved lives, and it will NOT be told. Feel good? Hope so! You see, saving lives ain’t always about sitting ’round the cam pfire singing Kumbaya. Sometimes it’s about standing up, pointing your finger and saying, “Don’t be as $%#@&% stupid at those people were or you might die too.”
RE: #162… Ooops…. PacNWer are you just a glutton for punishment?
Hey !
The personal insults, baiting, and calling people alcoholics is totally out of line here. Fine to say anything about other’s ideas, but not about them personally unless it relates to the details of the Kim Family Search.
I’ll be deleting comments without notifying people. Numbers will be messed up. Too bad.
NW’r, I don’t remember anybody expressing a ‘Kims not responsible’ view this forum. It was the Oregon State Police spokesman at a press conference who publicly, emphatically declared the Kims not at fault — “they did nothing wrong”.
So why not direct your vehemence OSP direction?
Well, guess that’s what I get trying to effectively communicate with PacNWer. What I was trying to point out, was that if you look beyond the attitude that for whatever reason he has taken at this post, he has some good ideas. I have also never said that I personally don’t think that the Kim’s mistakes led to their demise. What I did reinstate, was the mission of the SAR team…that’s all.
PacNWer – I could honestly care less if you drink or drive fast…I only tried to direct people to your positive post..that’s all.
PacNWer, please don’t. I’m begging you.
If you don’t quit, it won’t matter, because I’m sure Joe will probably ban you from this forum if you don’t stop. If I were him, I would ban you, sorry to say.
D.H.
I can tell you that I agree with the corporate donation thing…our group has been desperately seeking a local car dealership to donate a vehicle for search efforts, it seems as though nobody is intereste…wish I could explain why? Citizens donate all the time, not sure why corporations don’t more often??
“I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 26, 2006”
Thanks very much for your insight and comments, JoCoSAR. Since it seems clear that no amount of signage will overcome human hard-headedness, the obvious solution would seem to be to simply gate off the road completely from Galice to Agness every winter.
Like all decisions, it’s a cost-benefit choice. If impassable gates were built on Bear Camp Road and closed off, the locals won’t be able to drive up to prime hunting and tree-cutting lands. But then number of winter-time rescues on that road would GREATLY lessen.
If the locals want to continue with their free access to Federal property (which really belongs to all 300,000,000 of us Americans) throughout the winter, then they will bear the cost and responsibility of having to rescue travelers who take the unsafe road they want kept open.
The numbers messed up with deleting posts, etc., is a small problem. Not trying to be overly critical of forum construction, but a message board can be had for free, PHP something or other, I forget the brand name of company. It might be something to consider. I would set it up for you if you wish, for free, I’d be happy to do it. I could even donate hosting, I have so many hosting accounts with free forums you wouldn’t believe it. It wouldn’t cost me a thing. That way users can go back in and edit their comments. You could delete comments and other admin functions much more easily.
[173] …fortunately for this forum you are not Joe. IMO PacNWer has offered some good information. He expresses himself well. You know where he stands. Why not just scroll by if you find what he says disagreeable.
Joe, f you’re interested in trying a different format, I’d do all the work. Just let me know and email me at surfinwebs@actionnet.net.
D.H.
Is that the type of posting where identities are known? Or can be found out??
(168) No one here ever said the Kim’s didn’t bear any responsibility – you seem to keep forgetting that he died – he paid for his mistakes.
Telling people to be better prepared is old news as far as this story goes…you keep bringing it up like it is the only thing that is going to save people. I think most people figure if they are going into the wilderness (and know it) that they should be prepared for several different scenarios.
The fact is…people will keep getting themselves into situations that requires professional help to extract them from it – regardless of how well they prepare. We need to focus on technology, procedures, etc that will enable SAR and non-SAR volunteers, and the families to work together to bring more success to SAR specifically on missions that extend beyond 48 hours.
Thanks for the link to Kati Kim’s page. Her reviews show her to be an intelligent woman with a sense of humor. I was completely floored by the profile details she has obviously updated since the tragedy.
She describes herself as a “30-year-old widow”
Other details:
”
When I’m Not Yelping…
i’m picking up the pieces
The Last Great Book I Read
first few pages of “through a glass darkly” in the back of a saab
My Last Meal On Earth
anything besides rice baby cereal and snow
”
To post these remarks on a public page after what happened, what a lady. I’m impressed.
RE: 176 by Kip. Kip, are you talking to me? If so, what is your problem with me? You’re being just as disrespectful to me as… well I’ll stop there. – D.H.
RE. #177 by JoCoSAR, only the administrator could find out identities. After building the board, I would relinquish administrative capabilities to Joe. I guess you’d just have to trust me on that one. Or I could build it on Joe’s hosting somewhere as long as the host offers a message board capability that would work. Then Joe could change the admin password, and change it whenever I worked on it. It’s one of those things about being a web designer, at some point people have to trust you. I cannot build a message board from scratch, the software has to be on the host in the first place. I swear on my Air Force oath that I would not misuse the trust in any way. If more verification of my qualifications are needed, feel free to email me at surfinwebs@actionnet.net.
Re: Alternative forum: Thanks D.H. but I actually already have a forum software setup at another site I have that uses the Jelsoft platform. I decided early on that this blogging format was much better for several reasons including easier posting and navigation and searching. I know forums well and they are better if the conversation needs to thread out in several directions. However when everybody is focused on a similar topic and it’s important people read the discussion to understand I actually think this “single thread / easy posting” is the way to go.
Obviously Pac you are not interested in saving lives…at least not unless it fits your description and plan to save lives…you would rather deflect and try to detract others that are volunteering their time to try to do something.
Believe me I have a lot of really fun things that I can do on a daily basis beside dealing with your crap.
Since this is most defintely about saving lives it over-rides the grief the rest of get from trying to deal with you.
Did you ever notice Pac that whenever anyone tries to engage you in a straight conversation you attack…heck you even did it today when JoCoSAR gave you a compliment and defended you – your immediate response was an attack.
Why don’t you stick to the forum where somehow you find a way to be civil? You are not adding anything here.
Wasn’t it a nice couple of days before Pac came back?
(179) Good assessment thanks for your perspective…I kind of thought that as well but didn’t put it all together like you did.
JoCoSAR re: Forum anonymity: it depends how you setup the login and registration process and how much information the person puts in their “identity” page and whether they tell the truth.
Gate the road! many cry. — another step on the road of giving up our freedom for the sake of a little cozyness. seems to be the prevailing mindset these days. ..damnit.
Give me contact info for your organization and I will try to inlist help for you in the ways that I can. I don’t believe you’d have to reveal identity for me to do that. I could begin immediately.
JoCoSar Hi, just curious how the locals and the SAR team feel about the cell phone engineers (Fuqua) from Edge Wireless and the private pilot John Rachor? Most of us attribute their efforts with saving three lives and think they are the truest kind of Good Samaritan, and that their success doesn’t detract from the efforts of the SAR volunteers.
Are SAR teams now going to try to assess cell phone records in many cases as part of the investigative portion of a missing persons case? I mean would an ordinary SAR team interface with cell phone companies?
I am still not certain how long it takes the cell company to search its records and find the last ping– whether this is as simple as accessing a credit card receipt and finding the last place it was used. The credit card receipt would show the address in most cases, while the the cell phone info would have to be interpreted by time, distance and terrain, and then topo/terrain maps used for certain situations. So I can see some cell companies not be so happy to donate hours of time in routine cases. CNET had one or two good articles on this technology. Thanks.
I’ll need to be leaving shortly to take care of some business. Don’t mistake my absence for a lack of interest.
(186) I suggested they turn it into a toll road…it will solve all the problems plus create jobs and generate money for SAR.
Crazy idea but it would work. In fact why not have a locator beacon as part of the toll ticket and when you get to the other side you turn it in when you pay your toll…you would also be able to tell where most people get lost and when they did you could find them – immediately.
(188) Call Detail Records and the switch data is a nightmare to sort through. The towers in the area where the Kim’s were lost are one thing…the towers around a large metro area are a completely different ballgame. You are talking about mountains of data and databases that hold them were not designed for searching.
re alternative form. #182 from Joe. Well, I just really wanted to contribute in my own way. Plus I believe what I am proposing. But I’ll get over it I guess.
(192) D.H. I am sure of the protocol regarding this. The call is up to Joe…not sure how appropriate it is to keep peddling an idea that would take something away from this forum if Joe were not involved. Just my two cents…
re 190 from Glenn. Who would man this toll booth? Who would donate the locator units? Not trying to shut you down on this. Could the public be trusted to return the locators? Hmmmm….
Joe, you deleted my post, which is fine. It was a mistake on my part to stoop to the low level of my counterpart.
In fairness, though, I feel compelled to point out that my miscue was incited by an individual who has consistently, persistently and abusively engaged in personal insults, baiting, name calling, bitter sarcasm and insensitive put-downs.
re: 193. Oh, but Joe would be involved Glenn. I said control would be relinquished to him after building. So sorry you see my suggestions as “peddling” or “innappropriate”. Good grief, if you don’t share the wealth here on contributing, this whole idea you have isn’t going to work.
JoCoSAR, if you’re interested in the immediate or long term future, I can do these kind of web development projects for you or any worthy causes too.
An idea I really liked because it would be cheap and easy would be to leave gates open but the signs would tell people with cell phones (that would be a very high % of drivers)to call a number when they enter, and again when they leave the restricted area.
At it’s cheapest these messages could be handled cheaply and remotely using a basic answering machine and officials would not need to even review those logs until a missing person report came in.
Note that this cheap system would have saved all the time spent looking for the Kims on Highway 38 and 42.
More labor intensive would be a log-in log-out automated system where officials would get a call if the system did not get a logging out from the wilderness, but this would lead to many unneeded searches.
Barnadad – You bring up such a good point. I think that issues on this search will change many things about how we search for people. It has been common practice in the past to not start a real ground search for a missing person until we have a “Last Known Point – LKP.” This would be a vehicle, etc. With this case, searchers scoured all of SW Oregon without any further clue where to look! I would imagine that may change..or at least be expected to change. How difficult is it going to be to manage the call volume of people wanting SAR to search an entire region with no clue that someone is even there? What about people who don’t want to be found?
About the cell phone issue. This I just don’t know enough about yet. I have said before that the information given by Edge only narrowed our search area to three counties rather than the entire state. I don’t know how easy that is to obtain either. OSP handled the investigative search when I was involved, so that would be more of a question for them???
SAR holds no ill will towards “outsiders” such as Fuqua or Rachor. In fact, they are volunteers just as SAR is. It is difficult to manage emergent volunteers in any case, we were lucky that didn’t become a huge problem in this case. I know that we had so many offers of help from everywhere….from psychics to people just wanting to clean toilets for us…there comes a point where there is such a thing as “span of control.” This means that if there isn’t enough management coordination, more volunteers on the case can be more of a problem that the case itself! Make sense?
197 – I love that idea. The only catch would be that the point from which the call would be made would have to still be where there is a cell signal (and that’s a bigger more expensive yet very worthy project).
197 -that is a creative solution as well…if people chose to use it for one, and assuming that there was cell coverage (or that one had a cell) at the gate?? I know that in this case in particular, you lose cell coverage shortly after leaving Merlin..long before Bear Camp turnoff…There are also about 6 or so different ways to enter that area from different routes.
I have talked to Edge since the search. They spent two days erecting a temporary cell tower on Peavine Lookout. This did increase coverage, but not by much…there is no commercial power up there at all! That seems to be the biggest problem. The closest agency type system up there is on Onion Mtn. There is no commercial power up there, and the owners have a really difficult time maintaining that system due to that issue…
I have heard so many suggestions about solutions..some are almost humorous!! One was to have an “entry station” at the main road, not so much a manned toll booth, but like a park fee site. There would be a statistics sign with a box for “Next of Kin” information..do you think that would get the message accross?? Gee Whiz!
Glenn and JoCoSAR thanks for info.
Glenn– sounds like the cell records search would only be used in extreme cases since they are take alot of time. I think the long term solution is enhanced 911- and nationwide deployment of low cost/low wattage cell towers.
Of course, none of this overcomes individual common sense and preparation. I hope any “access” gate solution doesn’t prevent enjoyment of this whole area by the local citizens.
JoCoSAR– yes, I understand span of control issues. It’s like drinking from a fire hose- .
It really seems to me that all this debate with PacNWer
is futile.
He’s just going to keep screeching the same lines ad
nauseum.
We all know that people make mistakes. And everyone who
has cared or paid any attention to this story, Has
ALREADY LEARNED FROM THE KIMS’ MISTAKES. The Kims
mistakes are OBVIOUS.
We don’t smear everyone who has a car accident incessantly,
even when it’s a 16 car/truck pile-up.
We don’t crucify the character of every person who falls
asleep with a candle burning and starts an apartment
fire where people may die.
What about drunk driving? And all the deaths, of the innocent and the responsible, who die from that each year? That’s a far greater number if you want to save live. Where’s your crusade against all those people PacNWer?
There’s even a lot more issues that kill a lot more people that you should be paying attention to, if that is truly why you care so much about this case.
Humans are fearful – it is natural – we all try to learn from other people’s mistakes when something goes wrong.
James Kim got credit after his mistakes for his heroic
efforts.
But we all know we have gotten ourselves into bad
situations at times – not knowing better. It is the
Socratic paradox, from one of the wisest men who ever
lived, Socrates:
No man who thinks he knows a better course of action would ever take a worse one.
And if you apply it to your own life. You will see that
it is true. People make mistakes because they truly don’t
know better at the time.
People don’t want to make mistakes. They don’t get into
these situation on purpose, or knowing better.
You can argue that they do – you can argue that they
should have. That doesn’t make it true. You weren’t there –
you don’t know what they were thinking. You can judge them but there’s ultimately no legitimacy to it because you don’t truly know and you can’t truly prove what their perception of the situation was.
Beyond that, it all starts to get a little sick. You take
it too far.
We all try to learn from them, without some big negative campaign against specific people and their specific mistakes.
Most importantly, people won’t want to participate in your big negative campaign PacNWer, because it’s kind of sick and deranged with the amount of animosity you have towards these people and this situation.
And PacNWer, if you don’t get this, then you are
truly just an incorrigible waste of time. And I intend to
ignore you quite thoroughly and completely. You have made
your point, too many times over.
It exceeded it’s value too many times over. It is ad nauseum
personified.
I didn’t realize there was no/poor coverage at Galice, but the “log in” signs could be in range and locals would just ignore them. Hmmm – could we easily set up a national “check in” call center with a single number and a robust answering system?
No coverage / no cell phone? Perhaps add a pad of paper and waterproof box along with the “Next of Kin” sign JoCo suggested or some other threatening sign that locals can ignore and tourists can fear.
This would not eliminate the problem but it would reduce the number of people lost without much of a trace, and more importantly it would be very *cheap*.
Expensive solutions might be implemented in this case due to media attention and the donation stream, but they won’t get widespread use across the country. It would be nice to find more scalable and cheap solutions to ID the location of missing people earlier rather than later.
Cheap and simple technologies seem to be called for.
RE: Censorship
I’m already having regrets about deleting a few comments and editing others because it’s confusing and it’s hard/impossible to be “fair” and impartial anyway. Also time consuming for me to review and try to decide what’s a personal attack and what is legitimate criticism of a person’s IDEA, which is fine by me – that’s the point here in fact.
I won’t be moving this to a forum system because my personal view is that they are harder to navigate and due to login/lost passwords/etc they inhibit discussion you see with this simple to read/simple to comment blog style.
D.H. (and everybody) –
Feel free to link back over to the Mailtribune Forum as you see fit. To do that just go to the MT page and cut and paste the URL from the browser into your comment here like this:
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=880
Thank you Joe! I think it is easy enough for us to scroll past what we feel are personal attacks here. It is also impossible to determine a certain individual’s tolerance to “attacks!” I don’t think that should be your job anyway..This is such an easy forum to navigate, I would hate to lose this opportunity…I will stay here, at least until you kick me off!! 🙂
Thanks JoCoSAR and thanks for more informative input today.
Note that I have not kicked anybody off and don’t have any plans to do that, though I would like people to keep to the story and the ideas rather than the personality stuff.
In fact part of the whole point of the “new” internet is the idea that what seems like pointless or irrelevant information can become very valuable in a different set of circumstances. This is *part* of the reason I think it’s a mistake to do much censorship or editing.
I just got the Grants Pass Daily Courier today. Great article on investigation. Also, there was someone looking for the resolution from Jo Co SAR in support of their leader, Sara R. This article mentions that. There is also a good letter to the editer in today’s paper as well. Unfortunately, this paper is not available online, so unless you live here, it may be hard to get a copy?? I would be willing to type it if anyone was interested?
210 – JoCoSAR, I think many of us would love to see it. If you’d rather not type it and have a scanner available, I’m sure one of us would be glad to post it somewhere and link to it. I could do that – just let me know. Unless you enjoy typing 🙂
the reporter is going to email the article to me…I should be able to do something with it then…I hate typing on a laptop!
212 – Even better! Thank you for sharing it with us when you get it.
By Jeff Duewel
of the Daily Courier
Josephine County has asked for an independent review of the search for the Kim family, in response to extensive media attention during an ordeal that left James Kim dead and his family stranded for nine days in the mountains west of Grants Pass earlier this month.
Volunteers and the board of directors for Josephine County Search and Rescue made the decision on Friday, said Phil Turnbull, board chairman.
“There’s been an awful lot of attention to it,” said Turnbull, who is also fire chief for the privately-owned Rural/Metro Fire Department. “We’re just not certain our normal internal review would satisfy all the concerns out there. In this case we needed a third party. We wanted something more substantial than the normal review we do of all searches.
“We’re not afraid of it. We’re requesting it.”
Two stories published in the Oregonian newspaper concerning the Kim search were highly critical of the search, calling it “plagued by confusion, full of gaps in communications and failures of leadership.”
The request for the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association review is a response to that negative coverage, Turnbull said.
The OSSA will conduct the review, which will focus on actions of the Sheriff’s Office, and Josephine County employees and volunteers.
Klamath County Sheriff Tim Evinger, chairman of the OSSA Search and Rescue Advisory Council, will oversee the investigation. An initial report is expected by Jan. 5.
A news release from Josephine County said that, should the OSSA review reveal procedural errors or timeliness issues associated with the way the Josephine County Search and Rescue performed their duties, those issues will be made public and corrected to meet OSSA standards.
Evinger said he plans to interview 40 people. Detectives from various sheriff’s departments will assist.
A separate review requested by Gov. Ted Kulongoski last week will focus on actions of people outside the county, including state police, civilians, and other agencies, said Ken Murphy, of the state Office of Emergency Management.
Murphy said he hopes to have the facts and chronology in hand by Jan. 5. After review, a task force will be appointed to review search and rescue approach, and to come up with ideas to improve search and rescue.
The executive board and members of Josephine County Search and Rescue approved a resolution Friday saying they support Sara Rubrecht, Josephine County Emergency Services manager who oversees search activities.
Rubrecht is nearing completion of a timeline of activities that were part of the Kim search.
Kim, 35, of San Francisco, died of hypothermia after trying to walk out and save his stranded family, who became lost on Nov. 25 while driving home from a Northwest vacation.
The Kims, like numerous other ill-advised winter travelers in past years, took Bear Camp Road to get to Gold Beach, but ended up deep in the forest, more than 20 miles down a remote logging road.
The incident has also prompted the U.S. Forest Service and BLM to review signs along roads and consider closures. No action has been taken yet.
o o o
Reach reporter Jeff Duewel at 474-3720 or jduewel@thedailycourier.com
214 – Very nice, thank you JoCoSAR. This, I think, is great news about the public hopefully getting more of the picture:
“A news release from Josephine County said that, should the OSSA review reveal procedural errors or timeliness issues associated with the way the Josephine County Search and Rescue performed their duties, those issues will be made public and corrected to meet OSSA standards.”
Hopefully once this report and the other are out there can be some peace and the ability to focus on improvements for the future.
(214) JoCoSAR, that was one of my questions, is it common to have an internal review of each search, successful or unsuccessful?
We typically have an after action review…quick and dirty really. ORS 401 indicates that we are not required to do a formal critique unless actually requested. That just hasn’t happened very often.
This definitely sounds like the best way to go in terms of Josephine County issuing a rebuttal to the criticisms. Perhaps what Kulongoski had in mind will be a bit more general – and hopefully still very useful for the future, but since this separate investigation seems to have a more specific focus, I think it sounds like a smart move both for Josephine County to lend more credibly to their challenge of the information we’ve been hearing. Looking toward the future is most important, but if Josephine County SAR has been unduly criticized, I do think it’s just as important for that to come to light as well.
What is ORS 401?
Joeduck- I like your idea but I have one concern. Say someone doesnt call to check in or leave a note. Then there’s no search for them? Since you cant be sure they didnt just carelessly pass the check stations you’d still have to search the areas right? Am I understanding that correctly? Seems like it could help but not eliminate the need to search even if no note or call.
Oregon Revised Statutes link below:
http://www.paperadvantage.org/ORS/401.html#search%20and%20rescue
220 – My half-baked idea (and problems I see with it below): If we can have cameras for red-light runners, why not something similar at key spots off of the main road. This takes the responsibility away from people to make a call (assuming they could even get cell coverage) or actually get out of their car to fill out a paper to put in a box (we are drive-thru people on the whole). The tapes could be reviewed when someone is missing, and it should at least tell if they were on the road or turned onto a spur. Even just a few of these in the right places might work.
People would squawk about privacy (probably even me), I’m sure, and I don’t know what kind of cost would be involved, or how you could put this up without unobtrusively but…
JoCoSAR (170), I’m not an alcoholic, I’ve only been called one on the Internet. 🙂 As for personal attacks, I haven’t engaged in any. I’ve criticized behavior and ideas, and as a result I’ve been personally attacked. Folks here will do what they’ll do and say what they’ll say.
I have yet to read a single idea, other than my own both here and on the other forum, that if followed would have saved Mr, Kim’s life or that would save any lives in a similar situation in the future. The various suggestions here have either been irrelevant or impractical.
For example, a sign-in sheet. Let’s be honest: The Kims ignored a warning on the map and three along the road, and went there without adequate gasoline or clothing. They obviously didn’t think it would happen to them. So does anyone really believe that these same people would have stopped at a kiosk in the rain and snow and left the names of their next of kin on a notepad?
JoCoSAR, you live in the area. You are familiar with the casual vandalism in the back country. After all, only a week or two after this incident someone burned down a Forest Service tower that included cell equipment. How long would a sign-in sheet last?
Knock yourselves out, but this challenge is in the realm of human behavior. You’ll get the biggest bang from the fewest bucks by working to increase the sense among travelers that they should take cautions seriously.
None of these things ever happen overnight. It’s a boring, dull educational task, and then it’s about sustaining and reinforcing it over time. When I was a kid, hardly anyone used seat belts. Now, hardly anyone doesn’t. It’s about changing traveler behavior, not putting WiMAX in the forest.
If you want to change travelers’ behavior, you must show them the consequences of bad decisions. That’s how successful public health campaigns work. But if you continue to dance around the core issue, then you won’t even have a chance in hell of getting started.
PacNWer – I mostly agree with you..it is a dull, boring job that I will most likely have the opportunity to work on! I will continue to take all suggestions to the table, crazy or not. Understand, as I mentioned before, the ultimate responsibility for that property is the landowner, BLM and USFS. As we can make suggestions, they will make the decisions! Let’s hope they make the right ones…
(223) Nobody here ever said you were an alcoholic Pac – YOU SAID THAT.
As for the personal attacks you do it all the time – do we really have to go back and list all the posts that you made personal attacks? You even did it today!
Pac-
I believe you can get that point across and it does make sense without attacking the kims.
It is a huge PART of the solution.
And as far as personal attacks, My wit and intelligence plus $1.50 could buy lots of starbucks coffee.
223/225 – For the record, earlier today when I mentioned Miller Time I was not calling YOU an alcoholic. While that line was not deleted, what was deleted from my next post (and maybe this will be, too) was where I clarified that I felt like it was ME that needed a drink. It was intended as tongue in cheek humor. At any rate, voicing any agreement with you Pac about raising awareness to save lives has become about as pointless as I feared it would be. I’m back to done again, which is what I should have done in the first place.
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122606_news_missing_family.4a2617f6.html
KGW.com Portland – Same subject as above, Oregon Sheriffs Association review.
JoCoSar
I have a question. I didnt want to be reduntant so last night I went back and reread most of what you posted yesterday and I didnt see this asked but I apologize if its already been covered. I was wondering (and if you want to wait until the report is out thats fine) about a particular approach to the windy creek drainage. I read that the search started at one end and was slow going until they found james. I wanted to know why there werent teams placed in multiple locations throughout the drainage. Perhaps beginning middle end…
I read that searchers were lowered in by helicopter to where James was to recover him. Wasnt it possible from the beginning to chopper some of those guys in to a location further down the drainage and have three or more teams moving simulateously through the drainage? thanks and I understand if you want to wait.. I was just thinking this was perhaps something I didnt understand about that drainage…
Good questions Tara, I think it may have been asked, a bit differently though. I think that regardless of how it was asked, I am still going to have to defer my answer to Jan. 5th. Hopefully, I will be able to give you all of those details (if they aren’t in the report) after the investigation. I just am trying to be so very careful about my answers and this investigation…I am really counting on an accurate report! Sorry..promise to ask me again?
Re: 224
JoCoSAR – I wanted to ask you some of the questions regarding this and what we were talking about earlier. You said:
“I agree Lisa. Bear Camp area is where our SAR spends about 90% of our winter callout time each year. This was not the first call, nor will it be the last…regardless of signage!”
Is there anything else besides signage that you think could be done or improved? Or do you think that it just happens often that people ‘get in over their heads’?
And do you personally believe that more, strongly worded signs in strategic locations would make a difference?
I’m also interested in a rough percentage breakdown of
the types of cases that occur on Bear Camp which require
SAR.
okay I will and thanks. I want to add something about the conversation yesterday. Someone (I think you) mentioned that the SAR operation was slow going on the roads because you werent sure if they had run off the road or what the situation was. I understand that completely. (though I am interested in examining the possibility of the fast approach going down the roads with a slower more methodical search behind..) When I heard the news report the first day (and I have been camped out here ever since-thanks Joe)all I could imagine was them running off the road up there and even if the parents hadnt made it, those babies might have. I couldnt get the image of those babies in car seats waiting to be found out of my head. I told my husband that even if it were a bad enough wreck to incapacite the parents the babies wouldve been in car seats and had a better chance. I was about beside myself thinking about those babies. So I completely get going slow in an effort to really “clear” the road.
I look forward to hearing more about the “fast, slow” approach idea and the “drainage approach”. My technical terms….
228 – katu.com is posting the same AP story, so it does sound like it’s getting out a bit.
232 – Tara, that does make so much sense having a fast team followed by a more methodical team. JoCoSAR, if you can say, in general is that a method that’s ever used in a search?
I was also wondering if statewide there are statistics and studies done in areas where there are a lot of SAR incidents. And if there are any task forces or reviews that look for solutions to try to reduce or minimize the need for
and pressure on SAR operations.
http://egov.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
This is what is available to us…looking for more..
The next link is to the company who makes the handbook that we use in Oregon MSO. We call it our “bible.”
Not sure if this is what you were looking for?
It’s not a personal attack on the Kims to say that their collection of misjudgments added up to serious negligence. And glenn, you didn’t use the word alcoholic but your and Maggie’s intent in messages 153 and 154 was clear.
deleted
Tara RE: sign in via phone or paper: I think you are right that some people would not use it and of course you’d have to assume a missing person might NOT have used it, but I think one of the biggest advantages is simply forcing people to understand the dangers. The Kims eventually decided to turn around. Making this happen earlier in the process will save lives up there.
PacNWer re:Signs – I do not agree that the current signage is even close to adequate. I’m in the group that says the current signage is directed at locals who know that “Snow Drifts May Block Road” = “Snow will CERTAINLY be making the road impassable for much of the winter even if you have 4WD and there will be icy conditions and dropoffs”.
I think the cheap and ominous signs + check-in system would help put the fear of god into people as well as establishing more data points if a search is needed. It would not be a total solution but it would cost far less than other approaches which I think needs to be a priority even when you are saving lives.
PacNWer: Hey – no credit from you for a totally non-technical approach? I think there are many simple sign-in stations that are not vandalized much. The tab of paper and pen could be in a heavy metal drawer in a small concrete or metal housing – things like this are made for parks and wilderness area check-ins now. I would not expect locals to use this, but I think the Kims would have used it OR it would have helped them with *your* solution which is changed behavior based on more ominous warnings.
The problem with advertising to prevent these things is the cost (to develop and manage the campaign and then pay for media). Also I’m skeptical that even a big ad campaign would reach the key target for Bear Camp problems – people who are not familiar with the roads up there.
But hey, I’m some internet guy to be suggesting paper and pencil here. Technical solutions are cooler and have spin off benefits like I get to blog and upload pictures while rafting the rogue next summer. I say bring on the WIFI and more cell towers ASAP.
When asked last week, Georges Kleinbaum (State SAR Coordinator) had no examples of critiques or reviews to look at in the State of Oregon…great help that was!
(238) maybe you could make the towers out of wood from your pencils.
joe, I give you an A for effort anyway. Seriously, I do. I think if there are signs about the road being closed in snow and it’s snowing like hell as you drive up that road, as in the Kims’ case, that signage wasn’t the issue. It wouldn’t have mattered what those signs said; I think the Kims would have ignored them.
The key, in my view, is a public education campaign about get-there-itis. It could expand on the warnings not to drive when you’re too tired. It all taps into the same issue, which is the tendency to focus on getting to a destination at the expense of all reason, instinct and common sense.
The Internauts ought to be getting together and asking the states to put warnings on highway maps and at rest stops; asking Rand McNally to put warnings in their atlases; and contacting whoever does those public service announcements and seeing about coming up with a snazzy ad about get-there-itis.
But without nailing that down as the cause of the Kim tragedy, which in turn requires acknowledging their misjudgments as lying at the core of this whole thing, none of this has a chance of getting off the ground.
If Kati Kim wants to save future lives, she’d appear in some of those spots, urging people to avoid pressing on toward their destination without paying due regard to their surroundings and common sense. The only way this is going to work is if you plant a seed of fear back there that causes people to think twice.
I know, I know. Fear is a terrible word. I’m not mellow. I’m a sociopath, blah blah blah. But if the Kims had been appropriately wary of doing what they did, he’d be alive today.
And you have to do it soon because you have a very small window of opportunity with peoples heightened awareness…
I don’t usually do this but:
I just had an idea! I was thinking how great it would be if PacNWer would volunteer to be the Official Spokesmodel and “Smokey the Bear” of Personal Responsibility! His ambition and cause – fused into one! And he could fight the forces of evil “Get-there-itis” with extra warm clothing, food and supplies! He could fight off misjudgements and
mistakes with his keen spotting of signs, and making sure he always filled up at the tank before driving into the mountains, and never driving when it was raining or snowing!
That would show his devotion!
I know this is serious… and I feel very seriously about
it.
But I couldn’t resist!
Glenn – dude, they are gonna be HUGE pencils! Then I’ll sneak in and plant a long range broadband Wireless-N WAPs on top of each one with solar panels for power, and we are good to go with the Rogue Rafting blogging! I’m in.
PacNWer – I’m all for more public service spots but viewership is low on those. Big exposure=big money.
However in a very real sense this “public awareness” from the Kim’s saga is happening already and on a very large scale. I know local GPS sales were way up and I’d guess this is true nationally due to coverage. I’ve heard of many people who have changed behavior in response to the Kim’s ordeal with better car prep for trips. As one of 2006’s top stories I think the impact of this tragedy on the public consciousness will be large and effective.
Pac-
Im a little concerned that the assumption that they had “get-there-itis” is being presented as fact.
Im not convinced that it was just about getting to their resort. I really believe it was more about not knowing the area. Ive been exactly where the kims were. My family took a trip to oregon not too long ago. We were traving from roseburg and we were headed to gold beach. We looked at the map and decided to take that route (now I know it as Bear camp route). I convinced my family to take me to cresent city and to see some redwoods. If I hadnt done that we wouldve taken that route also. And believe me, we didnt have get-there-itis. If anything we had tourist-itis. We DIDNT KNOW BETTER.
Educating the public is important. But to have the kims get on a public service announcement as though they did something wrong, in my opinion is strange. I dont think they intentionally did anything wrong.
I know they passed up the signs but they truly may not have thought it would be snowing up there. If it were raining low, I wouldnt have thought it would be snowing. I am not the most experienced traveler and I am not from the area, but isnt that the definition of tourist?
I think its going to have to be a combination of things to make this area safer.
Re: 231
I was wondering JoCoSAR, if you could write about any
of my questions in post 231, because I would really like
to hear your opinion and answers.
I could just repost it again, but I don’t want to take
up the extra space.
I’d really be interested in hearing your ideas about
problems and solutions…
Hi everyone.
I have a good memory so I dont usually re-read articles. From what I have read, I understand it was raining when the kim’s started their travels into the Bear Camp area. Am I wrong? Don’t feel like looking this up.
Thanks
That what I remember.
245 – Maybe it’s a reach, but insurance companies often have safety information in their billing inserts (OK, I don’t get paper statements anymore either, but they do this kind of thing) and in their commercials, even on their websites. If they could be convinced to include something like Pac’s message, addressing some of those good points, and they will be paying for advertising anyway, then it gets out there without more cost. It’s in their best interest, too, which is why they already put safety info out there.
Pac, sincerely my intention was as I stated above as tongue in cheek having myself a drink in frustration. If it appeared otherwise and was offensive, then I do apologize. I’ve not ever called you a name or hinted at one in the past and have no intention of doing so now.
248 – Mapper, I can’t remember that for certain and have searched through all of the articles I have, but it does make sense that it may only have been raining when they entered the area since they were able to head to a lower elevation out of snow and into rain (which, sadly, is where they woke up in snow).
Speaking of personal responsibility cartographers are educated to *communicate* to people, to design maps in a way that everyone can understand. The DOT map is not that. We cartographers have a personal responsibility to make a map that *tells the truth* and does not leave any guess work to the map reader. An intelligent person definitley could and probably has been, many times mislead by that DOT map. It is not clear and to say its clear and was ignored is very upsetting to me because I can professionally say it is NOT clear. It can and should be done better, and that is personal responsibility, a personal responsibility to do our job well because we understand that people make decisions based on what the map is communicating. It is our job to speak to people like they ARE stupid…..its my career to do that. If they dont understand a map, its my fault, not theirs. If I wanted to be a jerk, I would make it hard to understand to make me feel better about how awesomeley intelligent I am compared to the uneducated map reader. Map makers communicate to their audience the same way professional speakers do. They know their audience and tailor the speech to them. A road map should be understandable by anyone capable of getting a driver’s license, and to anyone from out of town.
I assume cartographers in Oregon, ones employed by the DOT or USFS or BLM feel the same way about this as I do. I certaily hope so.
Re: 248
Hi mapper! That’s what I remember too.
Maggie,
I am quite certain I read that it was raining when they started. It would also, for a travller especially, be hard to know if it would turn to snow by going up only a few thousand feet. As I have said before, its not like going up to Lake Tahoe. The elevation is fairly modest and especially to a traveller if they don’t even know how elevated it is, as there certainly isn’t much topographic information on the road map.
Re: 252
You go mapper!
254 – I’m agreeing with you, just could only find reference to raining where they stopped.
Re: 246
I agree tara.
Maggie, sorry, I didn’t mean that to sound harsh. Its just the more I think about the more I am certain I read that, also just dont have the source.
Sometimes local newscasters do safety/prevention info
ads. I’ve seen them about the dangers at the coast,
about riding bikes with no helmet, about fire hazard
issues, and more. Maybe that could be an idea for the
safety aspect of the situation. I don’t know how those
ads get started or who pays for them, but it seems to
be a cooperative effort between local news stations and
various agencies involved in those issues.
Maybe all the awareness and attention paid to the Kims’ story would make local news stations more interested in making some “when traveling” safety info ads…
public service announcements – is that the technical
name?
246 – Tara, I’d have to agree with you there. I like the ideas as general ways that people should actively avoid situations such as the Kim’s, and I think it’s a great message that needs to be out there more, but we don’t know what the Kim’s mindset was each step of the way. At some point I’m sure they were just trying to get out, wherever out was.
260 – PSA’s are a good thing and can be free through TV/radio stations, but sometimes those are the ones that wind up at 3:00AM while the paid ones get a better time slot.
I think people’s safety awareness was raised by this
story. I also heard that GPS systems were one of the
top 3 bestseller this Christmas.
I guess the only potential setback with PSA type ads
would be with the localization of them. It would be
harder to have them everywhere. Especially if they
focused on regional conditions, i.e. mountains, rain,
snow…
Frankly, I feel that the public service announcement has gone through very clearly already and before the Kim’s tragedy (the part about personal responsibility and driving or travelling). We have a whole class devoted to it – driver’s education. At least we have this in Illinois. I agree the Kim’s made mistakes, but they were based on bad information and not get there-itis. They purposefully wanted to take a scenic route.
If I called anyone 3 times to tell them I crossed a state line they would punch me in the face when I got there. (sorry Tara! But these are the people in my life!).
I dont think we need to be so careful it ruins the trip, the family vacation, adventure. So many people have said that the signs are confusing…and I have seen the maps. Everyone knows they need to be careful when driving in the winter, and personal responsibility. It certainly would help if the driver were aware it was going to be winter where they were going (by better signs and maps).
This is not the time for an expensive campaign to tell people what they already know.
The only reference I have is this media article that states Kati Kim told someone about the rain and snow that night…
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
“At first it was only raining, she told Lee, but snow began falling as they got higher in the mountains.”
I know that our paper has done them..they are called PSA’s (Public Service Announcements). Jeff Duell has been awesome to us in that respect (Daily Courier). I know that I still get paper insurance bills, but throw all of the inserts away without reading them! I pay all of my bills online now..
Lisa- I believe that I have answered most of your question in 231, I will look back and see if I can find it. The real answer comes down to this…I am still not set on one solution for that series of roadways yet. I am soaking in all of the suggestions here. I will be attending meetings regarding that area in the very near future. I have already been to one with BLM. The frusterating part is that in my meeting with BLM, they were only interested in 34-8-36, because that is their only road in question. The main roadway is FS. Again, politics! I am hoping to convince the Board of County Commissioners to override all of them and do something themselves…highly unlikely for a county about to file for bankruptcy! It may come down to our local SAR to pitch in their own donation monies to pay for a solution??? However, I have not figured out which, if any, solution sounds most feasible yet. Probably a combination of solutions will be best. I am pleased that the current signs have been changed now from “Bear Camp Road may be closed due to snowdrifts” to “Coastal Route may be closed due to snowdrifts.” I still think it should say “IS” closed, but it’s a start!
As I mentioned before, a critique of this magnitude has never been done in Josephine County, let alone on that mountain. This is the most difficult search in that area. I think that the Kims managed to get further away from FS23 than anyone else in history! (not a fact, just a hunch)
Thanks Gayle, thats what I remember. I certainly think that is an important thing to keep in mind people are judging the Kim’s decisions that night.
Maybe a statewide PSA would be something that the Governor could implement after the report?? Wouldn’t hurt to make a proposal?? I will put that on my list of to-do’s for sure! I am sure that someone thought that Smokey the Bear was a dumb idea in the beginning too?! Funny sidenote: the kid’s show Dora the Explorer has a great little character already..he’s the “map!” Ok, ok, I have small children!!!
(267) Don’t forget backpack…backpack…
263 – Mapper, I agree about not spending lots of money on it, but I do think that even if I knew better, I’ve made some of the same mistakes that could have cost me – reminders can be good. This is why I mentioned the insurance companies who already spend money on “safety” related information (in their best interest) being a great way to send a message perhaps in a more unique way (more money for better “marketing”, etc.) than typical PSAs. I know I’ve gotten information like what should be in my emergency kit from my insurance folks (as well as my electric company), so it wouldn’t be a leap for them to remind me that it can happen to me. I don’t know, maybe it’s more complex than that.
Maggie,
Yeah, I’m not opposed to PSA’s. I just don’t think that is the critical part in these situations as far as what NEEDS to be done.
264 – Nice find, Gayle!
Here is a link to our Family Emergency Preparedness Handbook..I may be able to talk “the powers that be” into editing it this year to add more on vehicle preparedness?? Last time we updated it, we added evacuation for wildland fires…just a new “flavor of the month!”
Click to access 2005bookfinal.pdf
(272) JoCoSAR you should implement a version of that in wiki style so that people with experience and locals can add their two cents to it.
Glenn, I haven’t the foggiest how to do something like that..I can certainly give you the raw files and you could help me???? All of this stuff is plagerized anyway, we encourage that. Let me know if that is something that you would be interested in??? Or, you could contact the county Emergency Manager and I am sure that she would get them to you??
(274) No problem getting that done for you guys. I think it would be a very easy step to help people. We might even be able to get it attached to the bear camp rd wiki that already exists.
Suggestion JoCoSAR if you don’t mind…when you reference a previous post with a response if you could put the post number in parens that would be great…just like I did with this. That helps people keep all the conversation threads straight.
(274) It would be a good idea to start learning some of this technlogy…just like blogging has helped you some of these other elements are easy to grasp and provide results very quickly.
I will certainly try..sometimes I can’t remember which response to reference…but I will try…promise! Sorry, I said I was a blogging virgin!! (oops, can’t remember that number either!)
(277) It will help you later to when you go back to a thread you will be able to follow your response. Either way we figure it out…just wanted to give you a tip to help.
241 – PacNWer – you have repeatedly taken the Kim’s to task for various reasons and implied the signs were adequate. Early in my posts, I made the same assertion, but I have since changed my position. Regardless of what one might think of current signage, the public record clearly demonstrates that the signage is woefully inadequate. The Kim’s are the far from the first family to get stuck or lost up on Bear Camp…in fact it is – based on the input from JoCoSar and a host of other locals – an all to common problem. Clearly the current system of warnings is NOT working and needs revision.
Hey, is everyone asleep in here??
206 – Censorship – thank you Joe…will do my utmost going forward to keep on topic and focused.
280 – still…….a……..wake……..
Hi JoCoSAR – I’m checking in and out as usual.
Here’s a link to a story about the Sheriff’s investigation:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122606_news_missing_family.4a2617f6.html
Whoops – DH posted that earlier… leaving it up anyway
Sure glad that’s getting coverage!!! Thank you, you can remind me all you want!!
I’ve been checking in less frequently due to heat from my spouse who thinks this forum is close to video poker in its addictiveness (side note: I am not a gambler)…and my kids echoing similar comments. Not relevant, but just wonder if others are getting similar critiques from their significant others ??
(285) oops, I was referencing (283) Sorry Glenn!!
(284) Not me…although mine is just glad that I have someone to talk to…he over impressed when I made him read through all of it two nights ago! I am doing actual work on the computer too, so what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him! 🙂
RE: Story obsession criticism – me too Paul!
287 – we’re glad you have someone to talk to and doubly glad you chose to weigh in here and give us another perspective on all this. You have re-energized the forum, stimulated many great questions, and answered many as well.
You made him read through ALL of it ?? Wow…that’s persistence…
288 – so glad to know I am not alone.
JoCoSAR, what kind of vehicle exactly does your SAR organization need? Specifics please? Aprox cost?
(291) It might be easier to tell you what we do have?? We are really looking for a 4×4 extra cab pickup (or a few). Jackson County has a great fleet…this is what we have:
1 4×4 Dodge Ram (probably 1980’s) that broke down on search
3 4×4 Bronco 2’s (1980-early 90’s) one doesn’t work, we use it for parts.
1 1992 4×4 Ford F350 pickup to pull our gooseneck trailer with Snowcat
1 92 4×4 Expedition (belongs to Emergency Management)
1 (late 80’s-early 90’s) 4×4 Suburban (belongs to EM)
1 (1960’s) Military deuce and a half (Command Post)
1 old ambulance (dive team)
2 Argos (ATV type things)
4 broke snowmobiles
1 sled boat
1 IRB (Inflatable rescue boat)
1 old tucker snowcat
I think that’s about it…
(291) PS…and a bunch of really cool people!!!
(292) OK, thanks. Wow, that was fast!
You’ve got some really “vintage” stuff there!
(294) well, there isn’t much to remember!!
(295) as big as their hearts are, we look like the beverly hillbillies! It would be nice, if we had nicer equipment, we wouldn’t have to spend so much time repairing/maintaining. That is all volunteer time you know. All of the money comes from their donations as well. We bought a building with our Title 3 funds (becuase we didn’t have one). Jackson Co bought all new vehicles! It is really sad when they show up with brand new Ford F350’s painted pretty…all brand new equipment…doesn’t help our morale at all!
Stupid question…. do you need rafting experts familiar with Rogue? I’m not one, but my son in law is, he grew up in Prospect. Me, I rode off road motorcycles for many years… now I hot dog up the hill to the green in my golf cart… pathetic.
(298) The river program is truly run by our Marine Deputy, Ernie Fields. We only support him. He should be starting a river program soon (was supposed to be in November). You’re son should look into being an associate member on our Swift Water Rescue Team. Applications are online you know..
OK, thanks for the info.
(292) Does Jackson county or other counties help you by sharing ATV or Snowmobile riders and machines during searches? Or other equipment, etc?
Sure, just like this search…if we call, they come assist under a Mutual Aid Agreement.
I thought that was probably true. That’s good.
263 – Mapper: Re: the Kims wanting to take the scenic route, that has been one thing puzzling me. By the time they ate in Roseburg, it was dark with bad weather coming or already there. My only recollection of taking an OR route to the coast was through Elkton, and wild horses wouldn’t have dragged me through there after dark, I wanted to see the scenery, critters alongside the road, etc. Especially with kids.
So unless I had reservations (paid?) at the coast, I would have wanted to wait in Roseburg overnight and go to the coast. The only fly in that scenario was their room reservations, the point of visiting Gold Beach.
269: Maggie: I’m envisioning the Geico Gecko doing a PSA, packing his tiny little car up with necessities, extra gear, supplies, etc., all the while talking his patter about being safe when traveling. It would reach a lot of people and be good PR for Geico. Hope it doesn’t sound disrespectful, I guess my ideas get stranger as it gets later, LOL.
(304) They did have paid reservations, and even called that evening from near Albany, which was where they last got gas to say that they would be a few hours late to their room.
There has been speculation about whether they actually stopped at Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce and asked for a scenic route or not. Chamber swears they did, Kati swears they did not….hmmmm…
I would imagine the Elkton route to coast is a freeway compared to Bear Camp. I travel the Elkton road between Reedsport and Suthlerland lots, even at night. Pretty good road.
(306) That’s the way I go to ride my quads at the dunes…it is not even a comparison to Bear Camp Rd.!!!
Quads at the dunes, that’s something I’ve sorta wanted to do.
Got to snooze now…get rested for tomorrow..thanks again for another great day of chatter!! Have a good evening! Be back tomorrow…
(305) Oh for pete’s sake, JoCoSAR! I’ve been wondering where they last got gas for a month! Did the credit card records reveal where they got gas?
(310) sorry…guess I didn’t hear you ask??
Yes, they got gas (as shown on the credit card) in Halsey (near Albany) at the Shell station at about 5:45pm I think.
(312) the “I think” part was only about the timing…
(312) and to think it only took you 15 minutes after I posted it to read it…hmmm 🙂
I’ve definitely noticed that little discrepancy about Kati saying they didn’t go by C of C, and the Chamber saying that they did go there. But I thought early on Kati DID say they went to Wilsonville C of C for a scenic route & map(scenic in the dark?), and then it seemed like she changed her story. A curious detail, it’s like she didn’t want to seem, uh, er… what’s the right word? Don’t wanna say it for fear lightening will come out of the computer screen.
I was bound to make somebody mad around here…better to do it just before I leave the forum for the night..I guess I should wait to see if there are any other easy questions that I can answer for you before I go so that you don’t lose anymore sleep??
D.H. I also wanted to chime in that Highway 38 (Elkton route) and 42 are nothing like Bear Camp Route which is not at all a “regular” type of highway like those.
Thx everybody for staying tuned!
I don’t think D.H. was mad at you JoCoSAR, she just meant she’d not heard about that gas purchase detail until now.
(311) oh… I didn’t ask here. I’ve just been wondering about it all along in relation to how much gas they headed up Bear Camp with. Then out of the blue you mentioned it… I couldn’t believe it. It hasn’t been in the media at all. They just mentioned that they stopped in Roseburg for dinner, nothing about gas. I’m so pathetically curious.
Well, I know of someone who interviewed her at the hospital and she said that she hadn’t gone there…maybe she did change her story, but not until later..seems all kinda dumb not to admit that, I mean it wasn’t as if nobody would find out that they took a retarded road in retarded weather if she didn’t admit to looking for a scenic route in the middle of the night in the middle of winter!!!!! right?
See, I should go to bed!!
Oh heck no, I wasn’t mad at all… just shocked how that detail I’d been wondering about just popped up like that.
(318) I know Joe, I was trying to be sarcastic..guess it didn’t work? Wait a minute..did you say that D.H. was a “her?” And all this time….guess that’s the problem with computer chat!
Sorry about my #310 statement, JoCoSAR. I tend to get a little animated online, just like in “real” life. Unfortunately, you couldn’t tell my expression or anything online. Oops.
Oh wow, I’ve been busted… yes, I’m a her. See? I couldn’t tell you were being sarcastic either. 🙂
Now the question would be… are you a “her”? Heh, heh, heh. Never mind, don’t answer that.
JoCoSAR – D.H. already identified herself here as Djdee over at MailTribune Forum. [WAIT – I may have read post 95 wrong up above] But also note you can often tell gender from the discussion (e.g. “my wife said…) and you should keep that in mind to preserve your anonymity.
(324) boy do I hate doing that number thing in the beginning…
So, any other dying bits of knowledge (that you think I can share yet) before I leave?
(326) I thought about that…thanks for the reminder! things will be much nicer here next week!
BTW, what part of djdee is obviously female?
(328) Probably not much! Thanks JoCo, see you later. So to speak.
I’m switching to “JoCo”… I just can’t deal with that JoCoSAR stuff any more.
Thanks D.H. talk to you tomorrow!
You can call me whatever you want..want me to officially change to something easier?
JoCoSAR I may have read post 95 above wrong – I’m not sure that D.H. is Djdee but it seemed “she” was saying she was…
I posted on a thread over at MT once that revealed I am a woman, but that’s pretty obscure. Not really obvious on my part I don’t think, the gender stuff.
Oh heavens yes, I am “djdee”, for sure. Another little tidbit, I’m a mobile DJ. My nickname is Dee. Thus, DJDee.
333 see Joe, I wasn’t totally crazy!
D.H. I don’t want to reveal anything you want kept secret but didn’t you mean above to say you were djdee? If not I can delete these notes tonight…
Oh no it’s fine Joe, don’t worry about it a bit. I don’t care, really.
335 Do you live here in Oregon?
(339) Yes, Newport area.
325 Although we don’t need to talk about it, you already know who I am…you know I won’t say until next week…
(332) Don’t go changin….. la la la. Not on my account, you can probably figure out that JoCo is you, i would think anyway.
OK, all is swell. JoCoSAR it’s fine not to reference the post number unless it’s needed for the context. Few blog posts, even in blogs much more popular than mine, get over 50 comments so the format issues here are unusual.
Also in my opinion it’s fine to just note what you are addressing with an RE: if that is easier than looking up the previous post.
ok, enough said. I get complacent here at night, thinking I am just around “friends!” I hate it when I do that..Joe has already reminded me how many people read this post without responding, I just forget….that’s the naive side of me! Sorry!
(341) I do know? OK. Yeah… I think I do. It’s suspense tho.
Hey, maybe we could set a record somewhere? How interesting would that be?
Madeline,
Yes it is odd when you think about the fact it was probably dark by the time they got on the scenic route, and maybe it wasn’t why they took it after all, as they did also say they missed their turn so took this route instead.
Its really not of any consequence to me. Even if they were in a hurry, which could be the case, I still firmly believe the map is unclear, the DOT even admitted to not being sure what to do with the route on its map (the letter to Bob H. on the previous page of comments). Along with the vauge signage its my belief they just figured out they were in trouble too late. I think the fact it was raining and not snowing when they got on the road is another big factor in their decision making. Hindsight is 20/20.
(344) well, you are around friends in my opinion. But I definitely am not trying to trick you into saying anything… sorry… not meant to get you in trouble, that’s for sure.
RE: setting a comment record. Ha, it may happen if this keeps up! We’ll certainly hit 3000 comments by next week if not sooner.
Good night to all!
Good night Joe!
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284 – Yes, same here… I’m checking this while getting dressed for work, too…
Sheesh, I go to bed early, and JoCoSAR says where they got gas…
my findings are that the saab fuel tank at capacity is 301 miles. From hasley to galice without any side jaunts its 169.89 miles. If they didnt stop anywhere else they had a little less than half a tank of gas.
I wasn’t very clear in my post. I was not comparing the Elkton route to Bear Camp Rd. in any way. My point was simply the scenic value of both routes would best be appreciated in the daytime, and when we drove to the coast on the Elkton route, I did not want to miss the scenery by doing it at night. I wanted my kids to see the elk, etc. (we don’t have many roaming elk in SoCal). I just could never figure out the Kims doing a scenic route of any kind at night, so I thought they probably just wanted to get where they were going and scenery wasn’t the priority. Sorry if the Elkton reference caused confusion.
While not an Oregonian, I did own property in Sutherlin and still have family there, but am no expert on the roads. As I’ve said many times, I am not into piling on the Kims or what they did or didn’t do at all, I just think we naturally look for logic in these situations and keep juggling the pieces of the puzzle trying to make them fit. They never will, because people make decisions based on things we can’t necessarily reconstruct.
355 – Tara, thank you for working that out. I was going to, and now I don’t need to. Interesting.
joe (245) the point isn’t PSAs but rather public education. There are professionals who know how to do such efforts. PSAs are part of a public education campaign, not the whole thing. It starts with a cogent message, and then you figure out the means of dissemination. I’m not a pro at it, but what comes to mind quickly are PSAs, articles in the media, and warnings on maps, in atlases and at highway rest stops.
It really could be an updating of stuff already going on. There are lots of warnings already about driving while you’re tired. The Kims made a related mistake, and in fact being tired may well have been part of it. The underlying issue is the same: People are so intent on getting there that they do foolish and wildly unrealistic things.
The Kim tragedy serves as a vivid example of what can happen when you throw caution to the wind. By using it to update the already long-standing and I would argue pretty effective campaign against driving when you’re too tired, the Kimm tragedy could serve a positive purpose in the long run. But only if couched in terms of driver misjudgment.
As part of this, you Internauts should shift your emphasis away from the entirely ridiculous and even laughable James Kim, Hero of the Woods “meme” (I can spout the jargon, too) toward the long-term public education “meme.” Dare I call it “idea” or “concept?” Nah, let’s use “meme” so, like a Ph.D. candidate, we can make a shopworn idea sound fresh.
Anyway, there is a long history of public education campaigns in this country, and a long history of success with them. Seatbelts. Drunken driving. Child safety seats. Call the gas company before you dig a posthole. You name it, there’s been a mass educational campaign about it.
The problem with mass educational campaigns is that there are dull and take a long time. And in this case, the James Kim, Hero of the Woods “meme” would be the proverbial plaid golf pants at the society wedding. No public education campaign on this one is going to have a ghost of a chance without targeting what got James Kim killed in the woods.
tara (246), you’re right that there’s a chance it wasn’t get-there-itis. But the evidence quite strongly points there, given the multiple ignored warnings plus the Kims having resided in Oregon prior to moving to California. These were not people who took a freak wrong turn.
One thing that should happen soon is for Kati Kim to give a candid interview to a reporter who will ask the questions that need to be asked. There’s no need to be as pointed as me, although I’d love to be the question-asker, but there is a need for a thorough review of the actions and thinking that got them to where they landed that day.
I would be very suprised to be wrong about get-there-itis, i.e., the sunk-cost fallacy, but I can change my mind to fit new facts or a better interpretation, as I did in re-examining the phone call issue with the undersheriff. I think it’s time for Kati Kim to take off the black crepe and give a real interview to a real reporter.
mapper (252), you have to consider the ODOT map in combination with the road signs. The snow closure notice on the map was unambiguous, and so were those big yellow signs. Especially given that it was, ta-da! snowing like hell. Come on, even a pair o’rocket scientists like the Kims could (and I suspect did) figure it out. They simply ignored it because they really wanted to get there.
My mind really could be changed, but the more I think about this the more I believe that virtually nothing in the way of signage would have changed their minds that night. The way to get to people who do stuff like this is to plant the idea in their head that they’re making a classic error.
That’s how seatbelt and child safety seat and drunken driving and driving-while-tired campaigns have succeeded: Not just by individual warnings, but by tapping into a larger safety message that’s already out there.
DH and JoCo (various messages), I see how they got gas in Albany; that they called the resort from there to say that there were running late; and that there’s an ongoing discrepancy in where they got the ODOT map. They obviously should have tanked up again in Roseburg, but there are some other issues and questions.
First is that they missed not one but two chances to go over to the coast on good roads; not just Hwy 42 down south, but Hwy 38 near Cottage Grove. Recall that these people had lived in Eugene for a time; he apparently not for very long, but she for quite a while. This begs the question of whether they had planned on Bear Camp Rd all along because it looked direct on the map.
Also, another poster here claimed to have talked with someone who said that the Kims had been on Bear Camp Rd. prior to that night. JoCo, do you know anything about that? And finally, does anyone know what time they got the gas in Albany?
It’s two hours from there to Roseburg via I-5 but they didn’t get to Roseburg until 8 p.m. It’s a little over an hour from Albany to Portland, where Kati Kim’s college friend said they’d shared “brunch.” I’m wondering how they spent the day. Did they maybe go from brunch over to the guy’s place to smoke a joint, and then lose track of time?
It wouldn’t be the first time in the world something like that has ever happened. Even with young kids in the car and maybe a diaper change needed and some more of the typical parent-child stuff on the road, it doesn’t take from brunch to 8 p.m. to drive from Portland to Roseburg on I-5.
Pac Person: Why would someone continuously begin making some valid points and then destroy any pretense of credibility by inserting speculation about the Kims being laid up somewhere smoking joints? I guess most of the others have learned to skip over these posts. I just don’t get the fixation with pot, is that a favorite theme?
Madeleine, I’ve mentioned it twice. It’s not a fixation. I’m just wondering what made ’em late, and it dawned on me that it might be the same thing that made ’em careless.
Its really strange to me you think they were smoking a joint. Where does that idea come from? seriously. As a parent and after reading Katis bog it makes more sense that maybe they went shopping. unless you know something we dont. I find it a stretch to assume when someone is vacationing and it took them longer than expected to get somewhere that they were smoking pot.
I don’t think they were. I’m wondering.
Where is Kati’s blog? Does she talk about the ordeal?
I could wonder if they stoped to wash an elephant. Im not being rude pac, Im trying to figure out where that idea comes from. Its a HUGE stretch unless you have knowledge that perhaps that was a part of their routine. Again, to me, its as far fetched as me suggesting they lost track of time washing an elephant.
Pac- (364)we seem to have lost track of the link.
sorry 363
Without any valid reason for speculating about smoking dope, it just doesn’t make sense. Unless there are any supporting facts or reasons for assuming they smoked pot, why not speculate that they were looking at antiques, taking a nap or looking at real estate prices? Makes about as much sense with no facts to go on.
363 – Pac, it’s not a blog but comments and reviews on Yelp.com, a site where people can review local businesses. The links are somewhere above. Mostly she posted something thanking folks for their support (did not mention smoking pot).
I’m sorry to have offended the Kati-As-Modern-Day-Madonna Society. Lost track of the link, did you? Yeah, and I’m going to sprout wings and fly to Neptune on Thursday. But not before blowing a joint. 🙂
From one of the initial reports on CNET
http://news.com.com/Search+for+missing+CNET+editor+shifting+north/2100-1028_3-6140265.html
Ryan Lee, a longtime friend of the Kims, told the San Francisco Chronicle that he had brunch with the Kims in Portland Saturday. The Kims told their friend they planned to stop by a clothing boutique in Portland before driving to Gold Beach, where they said they had a hotel reservation at the Tu Tu Tun Lodge for Saturday night.
370 – Thanks Ellen!
Pac that was uncalled for. Everything is posted above. If you’d READ you would find it. You will also notice that the link posted above ISNT working. I didnt do that. I cant do that. It seems to have been taken down or the link is incorrect. Ill wait for that “change of mind” ability you have. Let me know when your ready to change your opinion of my 365 post
Okay, it wasa clothing boutique and not the Evil Weed that delayed them. Whew! But wait. Did they smoke a joint at the boutique? Nah. 🙂
(305) Since it was dark I couldn’t see anybody asking for the scenic route directions…unless of course it was some sort of sarcasim…
I don’t see any reason not to believe the Kati…she could have forgotten some of the details definitely not uncommon – traumatic amnesia. Happened to me many years ago and took a couple of years before I could remember a lot of the details…funny thing how your brain works to protect you from thinking about just how close you died!
From my memory, they didn’t have “brunch” until about 2pm…more like “linner”
(373) Putz
Oh wait…congratulations Pac you have been upgraded to **** too.
Sorry Joe…you really just need to ban Putz…I mean Pac.
He doesn’t nothing for this forum or your site.
374 – Glenn, I wondered about the idea of it being a scenic route, too – not many routes are scenic in the dark. I’m inclined to think it was missed turns and what appeared as a viable alternative on a map that had some warning, but not enough considering, as mapper has pointed out, that it was only raining when they headed that way.
375 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. I wondered about that as well – brunch can cover quite a range of time.
JoCo (375) what about the report that the Kims had traveled on Bear Camp Rd in the past? That was posted twice on this site but has yet to be verified. If that was their second drive on Bear Camp it would matter.
People shouldn’t get so bent out of shape about my asking if they stopped to smoke a joint. Not a lot different than having a beer or two. Or so they are always telling us. Why such shock ‘n outrage at the question?
(377) I think we can all agree they made mistakes and made the wrong turn and got on the wrong roads…
JoCoSAR can confirm some of this…it seems like anybody and everybody who has ever gone down those roads has gotten lost at least once but many have found their way out and some were lucky enough to do it in the summer.
Obviously the signs aren’t working, maps are wrong etc…
(378) putz
Maggie, the map in question had a box with an arrow pointing to the road. In that box, in red, were the words, “Route Closed in Winter.” In addition the Kims passed not one, not two, but three nice, big yellow signs with snow warnings. And guess what? It was snowing like hell. Why do you insist on making excuses for their gross negligence? She’s 30 years old. He was 35. Ain’t it about time someone grew the hell up?
(381) putz
Re: 358…Pac, in the process of doing a word search for the word ‘hero’ on all three pages of this blog I found that the person who most used that word seems to be YOU.
Except in response to the anti-hero campaign, no one on this blog has used the word hero in reference to James Kim since 12/9, page 1, post #246.
You were not the first to show up and post a contrary opinion. On 12/9, page 1, post #269, GhostCat shared their thoughts to the contrary, although in a less acerbic way. GhostCat seems to have felt they made their point and gone away, their last post being page 1, #275 on 12/10, the very next day.
It was after you arrived and began to post on 12/11, page 1, post #400 that the ‘hero’ word was typed bigtime, initially by you and then by others in response to you, and has been ever since.
Others were called heros throughout in this blog… SAR and John Rachor, for example, and continue to be and rightfully so.
YOU are the only one keeping the hero thing going, now into the third page and approximately 2500 posts of this blog!
Congratulations!
Note for all…winter officially begins December 22.
It was raining while they were traveling…it didn’t start to snow until they reach higher elevations.
Dozens of people have been lost on those roads…
Gate wasn’t closed…
Speaking of growing up, grown ups should be able to communicate without swearing. Joe, how about just deleting any postings that use swear words? The name calling on Pac’s part and our responses with the name calling is not grown up. I don’t know anything about blogs or webpages or whatever this is, but maybe there is a way for you to have it automatically recognize obscenity words and just delete those posts.
And everyone else, let’s help Joe out, no matter what someone else says, please let’s not respond with personal insults or swearing. We cannot control what others have to say, but we can control our responses, let’s try getting back to civilized, which is why most of us like this forum.
(383) James Kim does fit the webster definition of the word Hero…on multiple counts. According to the sheriff he was also superhuman. So I guess that makes him a SuperHero!
What putz thinks doesn’t really matter.
(383) Gayle, that is actually hysterical, good job!
(385) Believe this blog and forum is mild compared to 98% of the other discussion forums.
We should remember how nice this forum is when Pac is not around.
(384) glenn, I agree with you. To me winter is about December 22. And it was not snowing like crazy when they started up that road, it was raining like crazy. It would be good to educate the traveling public about mountain weather, I think if you are not from the mountains you don’t realize how fast it can turn. We got stuck in a foot of snow with an 18 foot travel trailer in the mountains in Montana, in JUNE! And we had an extremely close call in Switzerland in September. You do not need to prepare for snow in Illinois in June or September. But in the mountains, it can happen any time. So I don’t think MAY be closed in WINTER is the best wording.
Re: #364…I could wonder if they stoped to wash an elephant.
Tara, good one, that cracked me up.
It took time to drive to Portland from Seattle that day. They had a late brunch and visited with a friend. That takes time. Judging solely from Kati’s blog, she likes to shop. Also takes time. I can see how time got away from them that day.
378 – I have heard no confirmation of them ever being on this road before..that doesn’t mean it’s the gospel, but I would imagine that I would have heard…
The only place I have heard that is here…
(391) Yes another pearl of wisdom from Pac.
Oh great, we woke up with a big tree leaning on the house and 4 more that need to come down. Gosh I love trees!
PacNWer – smoking a joint? You want a credible theory ?!? One that people won’t laugh at ??? They live in CA. They had come from Seattle. BOTH states have high sales taxes. Oregon has NO sales tax. There are several factory outlet malls on their route. They have 2 young kids. Christmas is near. THEY WENT SHOPPING !!!
Wind storm up here on central coast last night, and it’s still not over.
Hope everybody is listening…if you are from San Fran and own a trendy clothing shop…you must be a pot smoker!!!
Re: 389… My husband and I drove through the mountain pass by Mt Rainier, can’t recall the name of it, and found snow over a foot deep at those elevations in July. That was a surprise to us and we drove the passes a lot back then!
You are so intent on degrading their character you blatantly overlook the most PLAUSIBLE explanation and substitute for it one that has NO BASIS IN FACT, nor any reason to suspect it beyond you want to smear them.
DH- central OR coast? I should call my daughter…
220 miles from Halsey to Gold Beach, if that hasn’t been mentioned. So they started Bear Camp with less than a half tank of gas then?
381 – All I can say, Pac, is that I’ve made similar decisions on similar roads in the past based on the unknown or what I thought I knew, and I’m fairly intelligent/safe most of the time. I was lucky and lived to tell about it. James Kim wasn’t. People make what turn out to be bad decisions all of the time but rarely because they think something “bad” will happen to them or because they don’t care that someone will die – instead, I think most folks don’t truly realize what the worst case scenario could actually be and tend to believe that it won’t happen to them. You can argue all you want, and maybe you are not completely wrong on some points, but I don’t think you are going to change anyone’s mind. We’ve all thought about it, even read and considered your points during your more civil moments, and it doesn’t sound like many of us buy it that we should sit around and blame the Kim’s and call them the things you’ve called them, no matter how shockingly or over the top you want to state your point for effect. No matter what your motive actually is or what you say it is, it comes across as just wanting us to all join you in trashing the Kim’s – as if that would serve any purpose. Maybe you don’t make mistakes, but even if I might have done some things differently, I “get it,” how their possible lines of thought could have reasonably gone, and I don’t feel the need to “blame” them one bit. Learn from it, sure, absolutely! – there are things I’ve already started doing differently because of their experience. But, no, personally, I don’t think the signs sounded very ominous at all, nor the note on the map. On my own version of the Oregon State Map that I got from the driver’s license folks, it’s there but not all that bold – and it wasn’t winter (OK, technicality there – that one I would give you), and it was raining at first. The signs didn’t say “even though you see rain now, today there will be snow if you keep going” – year-round, the signs have the same generic message that there “may be,” though sometimes we know there also “may not be.” Perhaps the Kim’s thought it was one of those times since it was just raining, afterall. As Mapper mentions, the change in elevation is gradual, so they may not have realized that could be an issue – don’t know, wasn’t there. They made mistakes and by the time they realized it and tried to correct it, they couldn’t. So they stopped for the night instead of continuing to wind further into desperately lost – probably thinking “hey, we’re lost, we’re tired, it’s dark, and after some rest and the benefit of daylight, we can correct this and get the heck out of here with quite a story to tell.” Sounds like a pretty smart decision to me once you look around and realize that you’ve made a mistake. How could they have known they’d be trapped by snow in a place where they deliberately stopped because it was in a lower elevation where it was raining?
Anyway, argue your case all you want, and make it more and more damning and dramatic and shocking – my mind won’t change. Mistakes were made that people should be made aware of to prevent the same situation, and it’s worth getting that out there, but people will still be human and will still need help, and the SAR folks will thankfully not blame them but just try to save them.
Yes, Newport. It wasn’t at bad as last couple of storms. Trees were probably weakened by previous storms. The wind storms have been hell this year over here.
385 – SUSAN – Thank you, our perpetual voice of calm reason in a maelstrom of madness.
Hey, all this fighting makes it hard to find the other comments… not a mad cristicism, just true. Of course with a tree on my house gives me a bit of perspective.
(378) Pac did your parents do something horrible to you?
(403) I disagree
“Theory helps us to bear our ignorance of facts”…George Santayana
Once the report is out and JoCo is able to answer unanswered questions, we can put all our theorizing to bed, I hope.
(378) Joco, thanks for confirming that you haven’t heard that they were on Bear Camp before. It was an odd couple of comments by a local, and after I called attention to them and asked him to explain further, he just dissappeared from the board! Will post his info when I remember or find it. (RE: Kims having driven Bear Camp before.)
Re: 402 Thanks, DH. My daughter’s in Sheridan, another daughter in Portland. I’ve been to Newport. Nice place. 🙂
Re 476 my post on page 2.
Mr. Bob Hollenbeck, Peter Sleeth would like to talk to you about the info in posts #836 & #442. “Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.” Perhaps you could call him or email him at petersleeth@news.oregonian.com
I saw your posts here and emailed Peter, he emailed me back and he seems interested in this info, if you wish to contact him.
Peter Sleeth, Reporter
The Oregonian
1320 S.W. Broadway
Portland, Ore. 97201
503.294.4119
Comment by D.H. | December 20, 2006
Just for reference purposes, this was my post asking Bob Hollenbeck more about the “driving on Bear Camp before” issue.
Hi All and JoCoSAR –
I haven’t caught up yet today – I came up with some ideas last night and this morning. At this point they are just ideas.
I was thinking that if you decide to submit a proposal to Kulongoski for a PSA, potentially (hopefully!) linked to a Public Safety Campaign, you could suggest that Kulongoski could be the PSA spokesperson.
Those PSA’s tend to be the most effective when the spokesperson is very well known and/or liked, with a high postion of authority.
And the idea may also appeal to him a lot – to volunteer!
I also came up with a potential Public Safety Campaign slogan:
Travel Safe
It’s the Best Way to Get There
There could be a PSA where Kulongoski is driving, with chosen appropriate talking points about safety and hazards in rain, snow, mountains, at night, etc., about reading maps and signs carefully, about arrival times and considerations, etc.
It might sound like a lot – but a lot can be said in a short time slot. We see/hear it in commercials all the time.
He could stop, open up the back of his vehicle, talk and show his emergency supplies, etc.
Then when arriving at his destination, which could be either a beautiful scenic area or at a house, he could open the car door, say “Travel Safe,” get out of the car, shut the door firmly in a way that created emphasis and completion with the shutting sound, and say “It’s the Best Way to Get There.”
He could then open his arms to his scenic surroundings, or at a house, walk toward the welcoming arms of family or friends.
I thought of various ideas for cartoon type campaigns but I just don’t think most adults woud take them as seriously as reality based campaigns.
Potentially this could even become a national on-going Public Safety Campaign with Governors from each state successively being the spokespersons and discussing
the driving hazards particular to each state.
I think Governor’s would like the good PR, and it seems like an appropriate fit for them to do it.
Anyway, those are just ideas…
By the way, issue in post 410 isn’t as important to me any more. It just surprised me at the time, and I was trying to substantiate it.
What if you saw a sign that said…
IF IT’S RAINING HERE
IT’S SNOWING UP THERE
followed by
ROAD MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOW
ROAD AHEAD NEVER PLOWED
or something like that? Would you be as likely to keep going?
He could just admire the scenic surroundings without
opening up his arms, etc.
413 – Gayle, that would definitely be less generic and more direct. Simple and effective. I like it!
I don’t know why I like Oregon so much, the trees are a double edged sword with me. We must have had a dozen trees fall on our house in past 6 years we lived in this location. I feel like cutting them all down around my house.
This was a letter to the editor from today’s Oregonian:
http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1167184550315430.xml&coll=7
Can any of you with relevant technical knowledge comment on what the author is alleging ?? It could be a huge issue in future cases of lost individuals if his allegation is true.
I think the signs should say:
“Road Closed For Winter
No Thru Route”
Re: 413 Maybe add …
IF IT’S RAINING HERE
IT’S SNOWING UP THERE
MOUNTAIN ROADS AHEAD
MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOW
NEVER PLOWED
CONTINUE AT YOUR OWN RISK
DH… I loved OR & WA but did not like wild fires or earthquakes, so now I live in MN with bitter winters and tornadoes. ::sigh::
419 – Even better, Gayle.
I love the sign suggestions…
sounds like you should be the new PR person for the GOV!!
417 – I’m not a technical expert, but I do have access to the Edge map from this case…it only narrowed location at 1:30 AM to a 26 mile radius..not close enough to bank on!
Re: 419
Because I haven’t caught up yet, I may be missing
something – but that would take up too much room
on a sign. The print would have to be small, or
the sign would have to be really, really big!
JoCoSar – Your post 320 – Perhaps it was late at night and you were being careless, but it seems your comments in that post run counter to your stated (and admirable) position of not passing judgement on the wisdom – or lack thereof – of someone who gets lost. Is surprised me.
JoCoSAR-
Did you see (411) about the PSA/Public Safety Campaign
ideas? I’d be interested in hearing your opinion.
re: 425 The signs for on- and off-ramps, welcome to (insert town/city), etc. are quite large. Dos size really matter?
(417) Maybe cell transmission tracking is in it’s very early stages and we just lucked out with a good read from the Edge Wireless people. The technology skills are probably progressing quickly, especially with emphasis by Kim search.
(424) Actually the topology narrowed the direction of the signal from the phone within that 26 mile radius and the obvious road in that narrow band was Bear Camp Road. That is how I understand it. It wasn’t 26 mile radius around the tower…it was from a specific direction and given the elevations there was a narrow path that pointed to Bear Camp Rd…is that correct?
They should post a sign with skull and crossbones at the beginning of the road and it should state:
This road is unsafe especially between the months of October and April. There are many spur roads that are not properly marked and there is a good chance you will get lost and not found for months.
List of people that have died on this road
That pretty much would tell everyone not to go on the road between Oct and Apr. But I am sure some still would and be missing. Sounds like a fugitives dream…that route.
(429) The tracking can be fairly accurate. Depends on the technology used and its implementation.
428 – Gayle, I’ve seen that much information and more on signs, so I do think it would fit. And the larger the better, anyway. If it was me (and we are all glad that it’s not, I’m sure), it would have Glenn’s proposed skull and crossbones along with your proposed succinct yet powerful message… and then be blindingly neon pink or some atrocious color that stands out even with just light from headlights.
(426 by Paul) JoCoSAR was just voicing a thought, leave it at that, hopefully. I’m sure his/her overall attitude is to assist all equally, no matter what. JoCo was not expressing anything different than thousands of other people thought, plus I think there was a bit of sarcasm there. I don’t know, not a biggie to me, that’s for sure. I would like JoCo to remain comfortable here, like he/she is among friends, which I sincerely believe to be true… my personal thoughts. You gotta lighten up once in a while when you have such a serious job such as law enforcement. Let’s not make a big deal of it please.
(431)by Glenn. Yeah, a fugitive’s dream, like Higgenbothem for instance? Different road, same area.
433. I think larger is better too… Maybe though two less large signs positioned a little ways apart, each carrying a portion of the message. And the word WARNING on at least one of them, too.
426 first – You are right..it was a very candid comment very late at night, it was not specific to Kim’s, more of a frustration of the whole darn thing!! I don’t believe that it was even directed at the Kims, more of the road and the weather..Sorry, I will be better tody!
430/424 – About the ping map. Yes, you are right..the radius was only one sector (1/3) of the tower (wouldn’t that be 120 degrees with three sectors?). That sector was facing the direction of Bear Camp Road. With all of that said, line of site, etc…There were approx 30-50 colored areas that it narrowed it down to. Yes, Bear Camp Rd. had a “splotch” on it, but not precisely on the road or in the area that they were eventually found.
I sure hope that a copy of that map is printed somewhere after the 5th, I think it might clear a lot up! Maybe we could have it posted on the SO website?? Not sure about the laws, etc..
(431)by Glenn. YES!!! A list of names of people who have died on the road. Extremely effective. It may seem to be distasteful to some I’m sure, but then, death is pretty distasteful, and preventing it would be great.
I’ve commended her several times for her participation, and continue to, it was just so incongruous with everything that has come before I feel it important to ask. You may well be right, but she should clarify, those are pretty strong comments.
438 – I think that I mentioned a statistics sign that SAR wanted to do in the area, maybe all wouldn’t read it, but some might??
439 – come on..cut me some slack!! How can I redeem myself for being partly human??
417- Where I was going with that post was, are cell phones reliable or not ? The author seems to be stating they are not. The Kim story, and others, seem to suggest they are. Are erroneous readings / coordinates possible ? If so, are they common or rare ? Is there a margin of error ? Could be a crucial issue the next time someone goes missing and a cell phone ping is uncovered.
441 – had not seen your 437 when I typed 439…a common problem on the post (you’re typing and someone responds in the interim). You’re a much faster typist than I. Sorry.
(439) see (437) and (441) I think Paul typed that response before he saw your (437) and therefore during a 10-83 he missed your response. 🙂
See JoCoSAR how helpful those parens are.
320 “Well, I know of someone who interviewed her at the hospital and she said that she hadn’t gone there…maybe she did change her story, but not until later..seems all kinda dumb not to admit that, I mean it wasn’t as if nobody would find out that they took a retarded road in retarded weather if she didn’t admit to looking for a scenic route in the middle of the night in the middle of winter!!!!! right?”
Wait a minute..I re read this again. I was defending her! I said that the road and the weather were stupid. I don’t think that is a big secret!!!
(442) I think the issue regarding cellphones is precisely about the “pings”. Many times a ping is recorded in the tower and switch records. Those pings can be helpful in looking for someone’s last known location as far as a cell tower goes.
As for making phone calls…cell phone are just not reliable even in 2006…we still have a long way to go. They have the technology to solve the issues they just don’t deploy it.
You probably have all had a situation where you get a ping on your phone that you have a voicemail but when you try to get your voicemail you cannot get a call through. The voicemail indicator comes from the low level features on the SMS (texting) part of the phone. I think it would be a no-brainer for the phone companies to utilize this layer to provide even simple icons to let a user know they are looking for them, etc…
I think if someone knew that were being looked for and got some positive signal on their phone that someone was working on finding them; it would change their whole decision tree and could save lives in the future.
(445) Thanks for the clarification…I misread it to when I first read it…
445 – I kind of thought that’s how you meant it, but as you know, it can be a little hard without intonation of speaking… I wondered, but it makes sense reading it over a few times and hearing how you meant it.
Re: 428, 433
Sign size: I think it would be great for the signs
to be as big as possible.
However, sign sizes are standardized, and usually
for practical reasons, they like to keep the message
as simple and direct as possible.
There is the funding issue about having complex and
elaborate signage – plus there is the fact that it
is a scenic area – and they won’t want to have pink
signs.
I also don’t think a skull and crossbones would work
for everyone – maybe people like the Kims – but not
youngsters or adventurers of certain caliber – they
might see it as funny and a “challenge.”
Speaking of cell phones… everyone’s heard of adding an ICE (in case of emergency) listing to their phone books, right?
got it in mine..
449 – Lisa, I was being somewhat facetious. My point was that Gayle’s message about rain here/snow there said much in few words, and was direct yet small enough to fit and still be seen and is much better than a generic sign – those aren’t working. Ominous and direct are good.
450 – Yep, me, too. Great idea!
452… special signs for special circumstances, that’s all.
Note to Self: Keep cell phone charged, do not rely on car battery when traveling.
On a related matter, I saw on another site a while ago that one of the TV shows covering the Kim story stated that OnStar would not work where cell phones didn’t work. Since I have it, I’m going to call them and ask, but I was under the impression that OnStar also utilized satellite communications. There are times I can’t get a good telephone call out on Onstar, but I’ve never been anyplace where I was unable to contact the Onstar operator.
JoCoSAR –
Could you answer my question about (411)?
I put a lot of work into that.
I think at this point noone would mind pink signs if it worked… scenic or not.
ok, well everyone is quiet now..although I feel the desire to stay here again all day, I have a job to do. I am going to work on the investigation. I do truly believe (after phone calls this morning), that the report will be done by the 5th. There are 11 jurisdictions working on it from the outside so far. I will be so relieved when I can come back here and talk openly and freely..until then, I am trying so hard to be careful, and it seems to be way too much. I came here with a purpose..to keep your minds open. I think I have done that. There are a lot of positive things happening here, and I am sure many other places too. I am anxious to move on and start working on some of this stuff rather than dwelling on shoulda coulda woulda’s and who’s damn fault all of this is…it doesn’t really matter, does it? Anyway, some of you already know how to contact me on the “outside.” I will continue to respond as much as I can, but the mound of paperwork is calling..
457… at least red reflectors on the edges or corners of the sign, maybe.
456/411 Lisa – Absolutely! I wasn’t kidding when I said that you should be the Governor’s PR person! As a matter of fact, I already copied it and saved it somewhere I wouldn’t have to sift through all of this to find…I have a working file that way. I promise to follow up!
Re: 454
People have been complaining about the signage not
being good enough for years! (Remember the editorial
from the local woman who lives on the roads?)
For whatever reasons, they have not changed them.
The more elaborate they are, the less likely they
are to be implemented.
They try to make sign messages simple so that it’s easier
for people to read them as they’re driving by!
Believe me – I want the signage to be improved!
(455) http://members.shaw.ca/sidewindercharger/ Sidewinder Emergency Cell Phone Charger. Wind up manual way to charge your phone, I got one. Haven’t used it yet.
JoCo, take care. Thanks for everything. Talk to you later.
Re: 460
Sorry! I didn’t know you were talking to me!
Thanks!
Wait, uhm, do the new signs need to be in Spanish, too?
j/k, it just popped into my head reading Lisa’s 461.
Why Spanish? James was Korean!
(465) JoCo…..
Quidado!!! No Vaya!!!
Or something like that, “Caution, Don’t Go” may be appropriate because there are a lot of spanish speaking only people living in U.S., Oregon and California. However, English is something everyone should speak who lives in this country IMHO. But reality is, they don’t.
re 465… Spanish because isn’t that the second language in this country? Like I said, just kidding, trying for a lighter comment. Failed, sorry.
Humor and sarcasm are very difficult on internet aren’t they? The various happy face avatars, etc. are helpful, but I don’t know the codes other than 🙂 that work on this forum.
445 – JoCo – was also reading it the wrong way…lack of intonation and all that…the perils of typing – misinterpretation.
464 – One language and some kind of universal symbol for closure.
Tree guy is coming over to remove tree from house this afternoon… wheeeee!!!!
p.s. Gayle – I liked your sign idea – I have worked
for state gov’t and I know how “standardized” they
like everything to be. That even may be why more
specific signs haven’t been made up for Bear Camp
yet…
I like you!
Re: 460
JoCoSAR –
Also I didn’t mean it to be so much for the Gov,
as for the Public Safety Campaign. I just thought
having him be involved in that way might help with
necessary funding and moving things along – even
more – getting it done.
Or maybe it would be better to have someone outside
of politics be spokesperson – I don’t know – just ideas…
Maggie (401) thanks for that post. I agree.
I have already posted about this in the beginning pages, but its been awhile. Pac likes to say that the Kim’s ignored an obvious warning on the map.
I am very pleased to see that most people are in agreement that “winter” is vague. November is hardly winter, as Susan has pointed out, even here in Illinois (we have some pretty cruel winters) November is not typically a harsh winter month. It can snow, but if it was not currently snowing and I was going down the road and saw a sign about snow drifts….well, I wouldn’t be too worried about it unless it had actually been snowing for awhile. As I have also said, the topo information on the DOT map is sparse, and the Kim’s may not have even known how elevated the area was that they were going into. I do not believe they knew it was going to be a terrible snow storm, or if they did know a snow storm was coming, that they were possibly ahead of it, our that it was further to the north. As I have also said, the elevations are around 3-4000 feet. Its not like 10,000 or 11,000 feet where you can be pretty sure you will encounter snow in November. I’m from Illinois, and this seems obvious to me. I have lived near Lake Tahoe though, and I lived down around sea level (near Sacramento) and my friend lived in Nevada City (up around 3-4000 feet). We had a difference in temperatures in the summer, and they would get snow when we would get rain, but the differences were very slim compared to the differecnes between sea level and 10,000 feet. I get the idea that the weather that night, it was a very fine line between rain and snow, but if you were at the lower elevation it would have been very hard to judge that it would be snowing terribly at 3000 or even 5000 feet in November.
Anyway, that is all besides the fact, to my next point.
Pac, I have a masters degree in GIS, a B.S in geography I have formal education in cartography, I went to a school that is one of the last to teach manual cartography. Fairy elves do not make maps and we just have to accept what they give us. Highly educated humans for the most part make maps, however sometimes, since the field has become so technical computer science majors are now making maps that do not have the formal cartography training.
In addition to my education I have worked for the military, FEMA, several municpalities, engineers and a regional planning agency. I have made maps for police, I have done databases for emergency 911 call centers, I have trained Airmen in the Air Force to make maps. I could go on about my qualifications, to say if that ODOT map is as good as it should be, but I am much more interested in hearing about your qualifications to be the judge of that.
Because I can tell you, that if that map were handed into me for a grade (and I am more than qualified to grade maps, as I am now more qualified than most of my cartography teachers were) I would give it a C at best. I am focusing on the Bear Camp area in particular. It has been posted here and I am not going to repost it, someone was even kind enough to do a close up and post a link.
Main concerns. They use a red line for the arrow — that would be fine if they were not also using red lines of the same line weight to signify some other more benign something. Never use red for two different purposes, in the same part of the map, especfially when one purpose is meant to be a warning.
Additionally, there was some pink text or something that did not match the red of the arrow. This detracts the eye and it does not appear coherent, the arrow does not even look like it belongs with the text in the box that contains the warning.
In fact, the red arrow appears so benign I did not notice it the first few times I looked at the map. Therefore, the warning box (that we have already pointed out says, Road closed in winter, is vague at best anyway) appears to be sitting atop an unpaved road. The line is actually the county line but unless you know your counties pretty well (and are really paying attention to the legend of the map) your not going to notice this warning is actually pointing at the road in question.
There is also very little detail on the road map, as it should be, it is a road map. But that is federal land. They should take bear camp road off the ODOT map all together or they have to put more detail in that section to show all of the roads, with the correct names, better warnings, and more topo info, and perhaps an inset that says to get a more detailed map contact USFS. Or they need to leave it off. Please refer to the second page for the letter from ODOT to Bob, as his backs up further what I am trying to say.
If they insist on leaving it how it is, simple changes could be made to clear up confusion. Change the wording of the warning, and the color of the warning and make the arrow a larger line weight, make the colors of the warning text and arrow the same, and different than the contours next to it. (they appear to be contours, red is a stupid color for contours, but I dont know that is what they are as I was looking at a close up of the map and there was no legend, regardless of the legend, its bad practice). They could also put a note that travellers should contact USFS for a detailed map of the area, and like Glenn said, should make it clear that wintere means Oct – April. There is more but I am tired of writing about this.
Pac, if you still dont get what I am trying to say, if you think the map is perfectly fine the way it is, please I am interested in your education, professional experience, and government experience. I do recall you saying you have little to none in the SAR department. What is it you do anyway? Because you trying to tell me that a map is fine the way it is, is like me trying to give you advice on how to be insulting.
473 / Mapper: all good, but esp love the last half of your last sentence! :-)…very well put.
Mapper, that was interesting, informative and very clear, lots of good info. I love to peruse old maps and look for former roads, so it’s especially interesting to me to hear more about how maps are created. Thanks!
Re: 473
go mapper, go!
Re: 475
Madeleine – I had wanted to say earlier that I really
loved your Geico ad idea – and I bet they would be
interested!
Almost halfway from 2000 to 3000!
Appreciate the updates and comments from all. The sign suggestions are interesting. But in the end, no signs will work as well as a closed gate across the road. The road should be closed completely from late fall to late spring. If the only inconvenience is that locals have a harder time reaching their hunting grounds and getting free Christmas trees, too bad.
JoCo, is there anybody other than locals who would be affected by Bear Camp Road being closed all winter? I can’t imagine any logging goes on, or any hiking or rafting of any kind. Would the authority to gate off BCR lie completely with the USFS & BLM? If so, one would imagine they would have to give priority to the safety of travelers over the recreational opportunities of locals.
JoCo, it is great that you have joined us here and shared your thoughts and knowledge. We were all ready to crucify Sara R. for ignoring the news of car tracks on the road to Black Bar Lodge until you clarified that car tracks were all over many of the logging roads.
Once January 5 has passed, I will be really interested to read what you have to share. Two main issues that come to mind are:
-How did word get spread to the various agencies working the SAR that the road to Black Bar Lodge was clear? If Sara heard from the owner that he saw tire tracks on his foray, but discounted them as insignificant since tracks were everywhere, would she now have the integrity to admit that incorrect conclusion?
-How many more people must die on the logging roads in that area before they are simply gated off all winter? The cost-benefit analysis of that decision seems to make it a no-brainer. Can you shed any light on any reason for that road to remain open in winter, other than as access to free game/tree hunting grounds for locals?
Thanks, and thanks to JoeDuck for keeping this going.
And one other issue I’d like to read about after Jan 5:
BLM says they were supposed to gate off that road, but didn’t.
Others on this board have said that road is NEVER gated off.
Who is right?
473 – Mapper, thank you for lending an educated and experienced explanation as to why it is that when my novice, end-user eye looked at it: “that map don’t work.” I didn’t quite know or think of all the reasons why or what exactly needed to be done, but I just knew that the State map I got sure didn’t lend the sense of caution that the area deserves if it’s going to be included on the map. Thank you very much for your insight. Maybe we could get you to make the next round of maps for Oregon… 🙂
479 – Several of the locals who could hopefully shed more light on that question (Bob Hollenbeck, Spencer), have not posted in some time, not sure why. Have seen numerous posts both here and at Mail Trib that forcefully state it has NEVER been closed and locked.
Wow, Mapper, thanks for sharing all that. Very interesting.
re: Closed Gates & Cost/Benefit…
‘Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall soon have neither.’ — unknown
“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.” — William Pitt (1759-1806)
@Lisa — your email… a most beautiful expression …deeply, I thank you -K.
(478 Bill) “The sign suggestions are interesting. But in the end, no signs will work as well as a closed gate across the road.”
I tend to agree with your statement, Bill. The locals will either simply drive around the gates or find another road to get in, whereas the out of state or unfamiliar travelers would just turn around right there.
Of course I’m not a local to that area who needs to get in there, so I might be wrong… but I don’t think so.
Gates (locked or unlocked) plus ROAD CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC signs would prevent a lot of SAR search missions in that area… I would think substatially.
The gates should be early on Bear Camp road, not as far in as the Bear Camp/Spur Road junction. As close to Galice and Gold Beach as possible, so that travelers don’t feel like “oh well, we came this far, we might as well try to get through”. The FS, BLM, and Sheriff could take turns checking the gates a couple times a week, or whenever was deemed appropriate.
Maybe local SAR volunteers would want to check the gates, since in the end it would save them a much longer trip into the wilderness on future searches.
On freeway signs post ROAD CLOSED during appropriate times of year … also ROAD CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC all year for all I care.
Thanks everyone. I also didn’t want to beat a dead horse by posting about the map again, as I did mention my concerns about the map earlier, but not in great detail. I did just look it up again
Click to access Oregon_State_Map_2005_front.pdf
notice the liberal use of the color red in the entire map and in the legend.
I still like the Skull and Crossbones idea, I think that’s pretty cool. Kosher or not, it would get your attention and get the point across.
On a more serious note, on the Skull and Crossbones sign could list HOW MANY people have died getting lost on Bear Camp Rd. You wouldn’t have to and really shouldn’t post their names on the sign. Too painful for the families I think, unless families decide they WANT the names there to prevent further tragedies.
It may be possible to post and hint that it is illegal to venture into the area unprepared. There may be some thrill seekers in the future who just want to go in and see where it all happened… having an inexperienced idiot going down Big Windy Creek just for kicks is not what you want to have happen.
By the way, the tree guys came and are taking down about 6 trees around our house tomorrow. Just thot I’d update. Looks like there was no damage to house. Lucky again for the 12th time.
You could also post on the “how many have died” sign how many searches have been conducted on that road in last several years.
From my understanding however, I believe the road is gated off and closed right now because of slides, until the spring. So that’s good. But I was thinking of policies in the future that would apply permanently or certain times of year.
re: 483
Safety doesn’t happen by accident. ~ Author Unknown
Better safe than sorry. ~ Everyone’s Mom
491 con’t… 🙂
Keeping the road open as much as possible is important for reasons other than locals going Christmas tree cutting and deer hunting. Guided float trips on the Rogue are an important business for the local economy and that road is the most direct route back to Grants Pass from the take-out at Foster Bar (near Agness). The Rogue is well known for its scenic beauty and whitewater, but it is also a popular sports-fishery river. There ARE alternate routes that are used once the road gets snowed in, but they take considerably more time, are far less direct, and a portion of those increased costs are born by commercial outfitters.
I am ambivelent about closing it altogether. I think that should be a decision made with considerable input from the people who live in the area who would be most affected. Their economy has suffered dramatically from the curtailment of logging, the last thing they need is another hit to the pocketbook from folks who don’t live there and who would not bare the brunt of the ill effects from such a decision. If you mandate a process that does not have local support & buy-in it will be no time at all before whatever you put up gets pulled out of the asphalt and dumped over an embankment.
On a side note, the BLM has wanted to reroute portions of that road for years because it is so prone to slides that close it with alarming regularity, but there is never any money to do it.
Joe, I just noticed that there is now a sidebar with recent comments – that’s cool 🙂 (At least I think it’s new – if it’s been there all the long, I’m just oblivious).
Re: 488 I bet that’s a huge relief to you, DH. =D>
493 – Paul, once again, you put my thoughts into words on the gate/no gate question. I’m convinced that there has to be some middle ground where it’s available to locals that want it “open” for understandable reasons but also somehow painstakingly clear to all others that it’s definitely “closed” certain times of the year.
496. – Going back to someone’s idea of a half gate that would allow locals to pass through but have a sign…
NO THRU TRAFFIC
OCTOBER-APRIL
???
(473) Mapper, loved the last line. Perfect.
497 – Gayle, yes, something along those lines is my thought if it would work – and maybe more good/unique wording from you that has the same feeling as your rain here/snow there phrase that I’m so loving (I keep saying it, but gosh that was clever and simple and really paints a picture).
499. Thank you, Maggie 🙂
#493Paul – “If you mandate a process that does not have local support & buy-in it will be no time at all before whatever you put up gets pulled out of the asphalt and dumped over an embankment.”
How about “CLOSED TO THROUGH TRAFFIC” with an unlocked gate that can simply be opened to drive through for local traffic, and closed again after you drive through? This law of the land goes on in eastern Oregon all the time. Open gate, go thru, close gate, go on your way.
Of course in eastern oregon it has a lot to do with cattle and wildlife control. Different situation, same technique.
501 – D.H. I like your idea, but I always wonder whether people will actually close the gate behind them. Someone has mentioned a gate that automatically shuts behind you, but I have no idea how simple/cheap it would be – same concept if it could be done, though.
I bet it could be done alot cheaper than a SAR operation.
504 – Very true, and with much less time and effort, too…
I think if I were to present that idea to a decision committee I’d come armed with the total cost of the previous 5 years in SAR operations. Might really be telling and would void any “its too expensive” arguments.
DH, I like your idea too. Someone earlier presented a gate idea, weighted somehow to self-close.
501/503 – seems reasonable to me…am sure there’s some way to insure it will close, just need a gate engineer…some kind of spring loaded set-up would work.
re503Maggie: Well, put yet another big sign up or add to a sign… DON’T RISK LIVES, CLOSE THE GATE BEHIND YOU. Nothing is foolproof anyway, so it probably gets left open sometimes. All you can do is the best you can do.
Several of my best friends are engineers. You put something like this in front of them and they just get giddy with the excitement of all the various wonderously clever solutions they can come up with.
Spring-loading is interesting, but when does it close? That’s beyond me. If it’s affordable and workable, cool. But it has to be tough to discourage vandalism to an expensive system.
re 510-511: Guess it could be affordable AND clever. Why not? Worth a try.
About the locals again… I’m sure they’d be happiest with changing nothing for total access. But I’m just as sure they’re getting tired of all the rescues going on up there, hooplah generated by Kim search, etc. Besides, this reflects on all of Oregon, not just locally.
RE: Sidebar comments – yes Maggie I just added that sidebar which shows the last few comments.
Bad news from China as they found the body of one of those missing climbers: Some of you here were also following that story: https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/mountain-climbers-lost-in-china/
514 – Joe, that’s just awful. I’d heard they were finally starting to get some better clues. Been a tough couple of months for lots of folks.
STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT THEY SAY!!!
Translation, while Kim tragedy is still fresh in public’s minds, Public Service Announcements and Word of Mouth to encourage travel and emergency preparedness should be emphasized now, when it is most effective. While people are still horrified that it could also have happened to them.
So at the very least, we can all make it a point to have a meeting with or make a phone call to talk with our families about:
When to just call it a night and stay in a motel instead of falling asleep at the wheel, or driving while our judgement is impaired by fatigue. Losing your money missing a motel reservation or missing another appointment is not worth risking your life. Our fast paced society makes this difficult.
Not taking dubious back country or logging road short cuts, especially at night and in stormy conditions, and especially in winter.
Consulting the locals about road conditions in their area.
Stocking our vehicle with emergency supplies.
Not overestimating what you and your vehicle are capable of.
Filling your gas tank at appropriate times, don’t risk running low.
Don’t overschedule your vacation time.
And probably more…….
It’s the very least we can do, but if we all do it, then the message will have been successfully received.
(476) Thanks, Lisa, I kind of like the Geico idea, too. I cannot tell whether certain TV spots are ads or PSAs, i.e. oil companies talking about the environment. Either way, Geico could do well for themselves just doing an educational ad starring the gecko. He’s not too overbearing and I don’t think he’s irritating to people.
517 – That was exactly my point about the insurance companies in general as a possible messenger – they have money that they already spend on advertising, and it’s in their best interest. Win-Win. They have a better budget to pull off something that’s less likely to be one of those cheesy PSA’s that run for free in the middle of the night – don’t get me wrong, it’s not that those don’t mean well, but more money can allow more creativity and a better time slot. The Geico Gecko is an awesome idea because he’s a “character” that’s already out there. Even if any of the insurance companies could be convinced to put the info out there, they could “market” the concept well due to their resources and vested interest.
D.H. (516) I do think awareness of travel safety is happening from the Kim saga. If you actually could do a calculation of “lives saved” by extra caution from all the media attention I’m pretty confident you would find that the Kim saga actually saved many lives from all the attention it got. But maybe even more attention is needed.
However note that if we use PSAs for travel safety we cannot use that time slot for for things like DUI, suicides, firearm safety. Those things would probably get a much bigger return on the spot in terms of “lives saved” since they kill tens of thousands per year.
518 – That’s a very good point, Joe. If insurance companies were including it as part of their slant on their paid commercials that they already run, it wouldn’t need to take away from those PSAs that I agree probably do save many, many more lives.
Maybe it’s too morbid/heavy with this wording, but this just came to me, so I’ll toss it out there. Be safe (safety messages presented creatively here). “We’ll be there for your family, but they’d rather have you.” Sorry if that’s too cringe-inducing. It’s kind of like that car commercial that came out this holiday that showed a little girl singing Christmas songs and the ad said something about cars and safety and picking theirs because of protecting what you already have – point is, it made an impact because it was well done and made me think kids need to be in safe cars with good tires/brakes, etc. Not sure if that made as much sense typed out as it did in my head, but I think it’s an idea since they are already out there advertising anyway and want us to be safe in general (perhaps for different reasons).
519Joe: Joe, I think you have a much better prioritized list of things that need done than I do, expecially on a global scale. I’m thinking much more on a specific and local scale at this point. So you’re right that news organizations etc. do have to prioritize. But NOW is the time to capitalize on the Kim tragedy. I’m not really thinking in an ongoing mode right now, just in this instance concentrating on the job at hand with public awareness and SAR in Oregon.
Maggie – I like that tag line !
D.H. Good points – we really we are talking local here not global, and even I’d say that whether it is perfectly rational or not you should help a neighbor before helping somebody across the globe. Well, unless it’s THAT neighbor 😀 🙂 😦 😉
OK, Joe. Share the tag code for the smilies… 🙂
I know 3 of them, but not that huge smilie one.
re519Joe: “I do think awareness of travel safety is happening from the Kim saga. If you actually could do a calculation of “lives saved” by extra caution from all the media attention I’m pretty confident you would find that the Kim saga actually saved many lives from all the attention it got.”
Yes, huge benefits in public awareness have already happened from the Kim tragedy. So that’s one good thing that has come out of the tragedy, actually many good things, many lives saved. No doubt.
D.H. Ha, I’m almost scared to cut this crowd loose but here is the link to a LOT of smilies that are supported within the comments: http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
😈
😳 🙄 😆
I’ve poosted at the Mail-Tribune forums, but it seems to have died down over there. I have an idea for warning travelers. Back in Galice, where the road starts, they could put a stop light in that won’t turn green until another sign, an electronic message sign, flashes a warning not to go that way. Sensors in the road could be used to know when someone is waiting at the light and ensure the message is displayed. Any message can be programmed in, including some of the ideas alreeady posted here. Just an idea, probably dumb, but I felt like posting it anyways.
Ah, Thanks Joe! I looked for this and couldn’t find it earlier today. Yahoo has one with a little cowboy hat that’s cute. 😀
(527) They should show the faces of those who have died on the road if they are going to have an electronic sign. A memorial to save other lives
529. Glenn, that sounds expensive. What if they were to create a road-side alcove, a memorial to those who lost their lives on the mountain roads in winter, lighted with a solar lamp of some sort?
(530) How expensive is one more life?
Point is…no sign is going to work unless people get a very clear picture that they could lose their life and others have.
A lot of what is being proposed is just another version of what exists now. The point is not being made.
People need to understand they could very well die if they travel on this road from Oct to Apr.
Either that or close the road with a locked gate.
527 – dkf747, What I like most about your idea is that it can be changed as needed, probably even remotely, to match actual conditions at that time.
Oh, boy, Joe – look out, a smiley can be worth a thousand words 8)
They should put it to vote and get the money from a tax increase. Be interesting to see how many local people still want to have access to the local road if they had to pay for the proper protection from it…
I know it is unpopular but I haven’t seen dying winning any popularity contests either.
If they want cheap…then gate and lock the road. Locals can go to the local tackle shop and buy a permit for the day. It gives them access to the lock – after they done they have to re-lock the gate and turn in the permit.
Something more than signs or a half-gate needs to be done if people are really interested in saving lives.
533 – Glenn, in addition to getting access to the lock, someone would know they were up there, possibly even which gate, in case they don’t make it back.
Oh no…
Please. We don’t want cameras in remote areas. First of all, we go to remote areas to get away from intrusive governmental surveillance and if you’ve ever been in a rural area you’ve probably seen that just about every metal sign is pock marked with bullet holes, so what do you think would be happening to those (censored) cameras?
As to SAR skills: Yes, indeed. Any skills can be utilized. The man who handles the data links doesn’t have to know anything about rock climbing. Radio hams, portable kitchens, portable bunks, xerox machines, gasoline tankers, … it can take a lot.
As to ‘mistakes’. Sure he made a mistake. So what? Do we make some quick assessment and say ‘he went ‘out of bounds’ while skiing so don’t search’? Do we say ‘he went bungee jumping but measured the rope incorrectly so don’t call an ambulance’? Thats the whole idea of forcing the ER people to attend to their patient’s medical needs and not lecture them on drunk driving. The lecture comes later.
re526Joe: Thanks for the Smilies Joe! 😈
I don’t know Joe…giving the noobies smileys…what’s next? javascript?
re527, dkf747: that electronic sign in Galice sounds great to me! Not a lot of threat of vandalism in Galice, I would hope. Same at Golf Beach end. It will look like a lot of todo over a scragly road like Bear Camp 🙂 but whatever works.
“First of all, we go to remote areas to get away from intrusive governmental surveillance”
Yikes Fools Gold – I hope you also include peace and quiet on that list of wilderness priorities!
I actually love the idea of web cams in remote spots because it allows people out of the area to get a feel for things and also makes it relatively cheap to keep tabs on trouble spots.
I’m going to check on something regarding this. The Galice Store is very near the intersection of Galice Road and the BLM road that connects with Bear Camp Road. I think the Resort may have internet which means you might be able to web cam that intersection with a WIFI Antenna and some fairly cheap equipment. Would need permission from ODOT and perhaps BLM and USFS which is not a small task.
Several good points by Glenn and Maggie above and the roadside memorial is actually well within budget and bounds and would be less likely to get vandalized, though it would probably not fly politically.
Joe, hmmmm…. how can you make a smilie bigger? 😈
D.H. I knew you’d be dangerous with all those smilies! I think the big smile is you mean is colon D 😀
Off to Table Tennis – I’ll look forward to the discussion when I get back though I think we may have lost JoCoSAR until after the investigation, and I certainly understand how JoCoSAR cannot comment about specifics until after that is done.
I sure wish Bob Hollenbeck would come back and post
more. It was great to have a knowledgable and caring
local involved. I wonder if he wants to avoid the
potential complications of the ‘what he thought a
family member said to him about them traveling Bear
Camp issue’. He could just refuse to comment about
it any further if he doesn’t want to get involved
that way…
I liked his suggestion of a seriously mounted gate
starting November 1 with stronger signs saying:
“ROAD CLOSED FOR WINTER
NO THRU ROUTE.”
At 8 a.m. Sunday, Dec. 3, Rubrecht, Powers, Stanton and Anderson met at the Josephine County Sheriff’s Office. Rubrecht said she pleaded with her boss to come in, saying: “Brian, I know it’s your day off and it’s your last week, but I really need you here. This is kind of above my head.”
Okay, can’t stand it anymore..have to chime in…
#1 Taxpayers here won’t pay for anything at all!!!! We just lost our libraries and are about to lose our fairgrounds!! Our county tax here is $.58/1000! That’s simply not an option.
#2 If you ever have the urge to find out about vandalism in Galice, call the local Sheriff’s Office! It’s horrible out there, almost worse than in town!! Really, it is a real problem!
Re: 543
Sorry I accidentally hit ‘Submit Comment’ before I was
done!
532 That was the idea. You can put whatever scary message you want on it, make it flash, whatever. The light would not go green until the vehicle has stopped on the sensor for a pre-determinjed length of time, long enough to have read the message once or twice. I’d be surprised if it was actually done, but I was just trying to think of a better way to scare, er I mean warn people who shouldn’t be up there away.
538, You’re right. It would be needed on both ends.
Re: 544
So JoCoSAR, would local tax monies affect BLM/USFS
signage and issues like gates? Or would it all
depend on location and who’s in charge on different
parts of the roads?
547 wait, I wanna hear what else you were gonna say about 543…
539 – Wow, Joe, I tossed that one out there expecting it would be way too hard to pay for or set up, so that’s awesome if there is any chance it could work. The main reason I’d brought up the cameras (yes, I agree that privacy is a concern) is that the people who think nothing will happen to them and sail past all of our new idea words on warning signs, don’t bother to stop at the check in box because it’s a hassle to get out of the car, drive around the half gate, etc. would be easier to find more quickly (which could also save money…).
Re: 543
I posted that quote at the end from the Oregon Live
article because it stood out to me. I know you can’t
comment but it must have been hard to have the person
running the search have two days off right on some of
the crucial days in the beginning. (Saturday)
I know you don’t want to blame anyone, but I can’t
help but be curious about what his work load was
about the search in those first few days.
(544) exactly my point…and any burglary or vandalism will not be investigated (sorry JoCoSAR – I know it is not your are but that is how Anderson would do it…just respond to emergencies and nothing else…practically).
Don’t get me going on the library closures and the fairgrounds – I have talked to several locals about that and a lot of people are really upset over this.
The most effective solution will be the locked gate…hate to say it but until someone is willing to step up and pay the piper – someone’s life trumps cutting down a christmas tree or snow-mobiling…etc.
(545) That has to be your shortest post yet Lisa… :p
Gayle (383) search again. Lots of people on this site have called James Kim a hero and/or heroic. Early on in this whole thing I did a post count, not for that reference but for other things, so I’m not going to substantiate it other than to say that you’re simply wrong. I’m sure the peanut gallery will rally to your side, but they’ll be wrong about it.
As as glenn (384) wrong when he wrote they started up Bear Camp in the rain; CNN reported that it was a rain/snow mix. In any case, the road climbs quickly and the mix changed quickly to snow. People as brilliant as the Kims — blindingly brilliant and saintly, too — should have been able to figure it out.
Gayle (390), they didn’t drive from Seattle to Portland “that day.” They drove from Seattle the previous day. They started out from Portland on Saturday, and apparently spent a few hours at a clothing boutique before getting a move on.
JoCo & glenn (391-2), I didn’t originally post about the Kims having been on Bear Camp before Nov. 25th. Someone else posted that claim, and I was wondering if there was any corroboration. In fact, I have been very careful to say that the claim should NOT be accepted without verification.
Maggie (401), you’ve taken back roads in the snow, without enough gas or basic clothing for the weather, ignoring warnings on the maps and the signs? If so, then you’re just as dumb as they are, and you should credit your good luck that nothing bad has happened to you.
Gayle (413) I really don’t think the wording would have mattered. The Kims had all the warnings they needed, yet the barrelled ahead through the snow anyway. I think they were in a sort of mental tunnel. It’s very hard to break into that tunnel. I think the most realistic way to do it is through public education, and even then you’ll still have some fraction of the drivers who don’t think the rules apply to them.
Paul (417) I have a significant knowledge of wireless technology. Radio waves are funny animals, especially in bad weather and especially at the microwave frequencies in wide use within cellular networks. Location information is usually accurate but it is far from foolproof. Among other things, microwaves have a way of bouncing off of raindrops, especially if there are a whole lot of them.
And GPS is even worse. It not only doesn’t like rain too much, but it hates leaves. Oh, and it’s a very weak signal to begin with. Anyone who thinks cellular and GPS are going to pinpoint them to within 100 feet or whatever 100% of the time probably believe in the Wizard of Oz, too.
JoCo and Paul (320, 426, 434), see what I mean about the consensus here? JoCo, in your message 320, you didn’t even come close to blaming the Kims for anything but you still got the warning from the ever-compassionate Paul in #426. Whether you know it or not, there’s an implicit bargain between you and the peanut gallery here: If you won’t criticize poor, negligent Mrs. Kim, the Compassionate Ones won’t rip you a new orifice.
See, the whole zeitgeist among the consensus is to avoid talk of blame and accountability and responsibility at all cost. That might make people feel bad about their outrageous screw-ups, and we can’t have it! The Kims got one person killed and almost got three more killed, but Shhhhhh, we can’t say that here. It might interfere with the TV movie.
mapper (473), there’s nothing vague about winter when it’s snowing like hell right outside your car window. Oh, and the DOT map shows mountains and their elevations. If the Kims were too stupid to read a map, whose fault is that? Geez. To know that the road went to Gold Beach they had to look closely enough at the map to see the warning and to see the heights of the mountains. But even if they didn’t, there were three more signs and that funny white stuff falling like crazy right outside their windows.
Maybe the answer is to teach graduate students what snow is? Maybe CNET could have a special corporate meeting to be limited only to its highest-I.Q. senior employees and their wives. Come on. It was “vague?” No it wasn’t! In addition to the warnings on the map and the signs, and the snow falling, there had been forecasts of a big winter storm on the way. And the Kims had lived in Oregon.
Once again, the peanut gallery here is turning itself into a troupe of circus acrobats (Circque du Soleil, anyone?) to avoid telling the truth, which is that this tragedy can be stamped Made in Kims’ Brains. They screwed up and paid a heavy price. Now the best thing to do is say that. Not just here, but to the broader public.
Of course, all it would do is save some lives. Tsk, tsk.
Re: 550
clarify:
‘I can’t help but be curious about what
his work load was regarding the search in those first
few days…’
😈 JoCo’s baaaaaaaacckk……
ARRRGGGHHH! 😈 👿 😈 👿 😈
Joe can you please put the trash out? We need the space. I have a huge animated SuperHero tribute for James Kim I want to post – he can do no wrong – I even have Stan Lee helping me with the images!!!
#556 does not pertain to JoCoSAR.
What a time for Joe to go play table tennis!!! 😡
🙄
Hi Pac.
(560) Fool – LOL
Apparently PacNWer was watching and when JoCo appeared, he couldn’t stand her getting all the attention.
…or…they are somehow connected…
but I am not paranoid…lol
Lively group this has turned into, eh? 😆
O lord Glenn! re: #563
Don’t get me started!
What are you lookin at me for?
Where is Paul and his pithy comments?
563 – would you give me some credit here??
567 – JoCoSAR has a point – I’m not sure Pac could muster JoCo’s niceness – no relation, not even twice removed half cousins.
I am also curious if that phone call that was first for
Anderson or Sara R Saturday night, that Sara R took when Anderson at first did not, (I know you clarified that he didn’t need to call back because there was a message that Sara R had taken the call when contacted) was from State Police Officer Powers.
I’m not sure how much it matters or not. But it sounds
like it was an important call.
I do look forward to the report, and you having that relief,
and the relief of finally being able to answer our questions.
[551] .. “someone’s life trumps cutting down a christmas tree or snow-mobiling…etc.” …true, but it is their life, not yours. let them decide, not you.
569- that was who is was from…or so I heard…
Everyone’s actually being quite entertaining and humorous if you can get as warped as I occasionally do. #566 JoCo chiming in again was even funny. Comic relief! 😆
I’ll say this much: Is this the most neurotic group around? I mean, I keep expecting to pick up the newspaper tomorrow and see a headline, James Kim Still Dead/Friends, Co-Workers Cite ‘Heroic Rest’ 🙂
#571 yeah… right. 🙄
🙄
#573, now that wasn’t funny. 😐
I just out that quote in because it sounded telling
that Sara R “plead” with her boss to come in, when
there was such an important SAR operation going on.
It seems he should have been more involved in an
emergency/crisis SAR operation, even on his days
off.
Is there a policy in regard to days off during SAR emergency
operations? (In general and for the acting Sheriff/Undersheriff?)
I know you said that Sara is always available in such
cases, regardless of days off.
Sorry if I’m discussing topics that are too hot.
I’m just trying to understand…
Do you really follow policy when your in your last week of work??
577 – there are no such policies. Besides, remember that we didn’t have an official search in our county until Monday. Until that time, we were doing a courtesy clearing of roads. As of Sunday though, there were decisions that needed to be made that Sara has no authority to make on behalf of the SO. Haven’t you ever heard of people who have all of the responsibility, yet none of the authority? Well….here is a perfect case!!
(567) hee hee…u r getting credit thats for sure!
(578) but when a life is at stake you would hope so…even if it were his last five minutes of work…
Lisa (577), he blew off the call for the football game on a Saturday night. He was back in the office the following morning at 8 a.m., so perhaps you can tell us what he didn’t accomplish overnight other than to hold her hand and make her feel good.
I misjudged that one at first, until I called a cop friend of mine and we talked it through. Then I went and re-read the story and realized the timing. People need downtime. I don’t think the guy did anything wrong.
(571) so did you hear while on the phone or just in passing… 🙂
re579: “Haven’t you ever heard of people who have all of the responsibility, yet none of the authority? Well….here is a perfect case!!”
I had that in the Air Force ALL the time. I was an E7 MSgt, kind of like Sara. Anderson would have been the worthless officer, commander.
(581) This is true you would hope so! But you never know!
I have to go anyway, so I will stop with my questions.
And just to clarify – Bob Hollenbeck’s idea was to
have a gate that locals who knew could go around,
but that would cause un-local visitors to know
the road was closed.
I think no matter what the solution – locals will
need to have local access, or they will tamper and
vandalize to get it.
553/573… 😕 As a home health care worker, I have worked with the blind, but no one this blind.
583..nice try!! Ummm, I was just passing by at the time.
582..I have never said that Anderson did anything wrong those first couple of days, remember? It has been clarified that he answered all of Sara R.’s calls…
(586) Locals or not, a gate wouldn’t stop people if they want to get out and play they will go, and locals take offense to a gate on “their” road.
(589) Understand your point…how do you they feel about bodies on their road? I mean that as a serious question…I really would like to know.
(587) Why are you giving him compliments? Even the blind have something to offer.
I’m still withholding my judgement on Anderson until we see the timeline in the report (if we see it).
(589)Well funny thing NONE of the people who live on the road offered to help during so who knows bodies on their road might be ok to them
Re: 588
JoCoSAR – Thanks for clarifying. I guess I hadn’t realized
how technical the start date for the official local
search was.
One last question – you probably won’t be able to answer.
Did a lot of work occur regarding the search on Sunday.
Other than the morning meetings, and the couple who tried
to check 34-8-36 it hasn’t been apparent that a lot
happened.
I guess it was the official day for gathering SAR staff
and initial information gathering and organization, etc.?
But not a lot of search operations?
JoCo (588), my comment #582 was in response to Lisa’s comment #577, not to anything you wrote. And all these numbers remind me of the joke about the prisoners who’ve been locked up so long that they’ve numbered all the jokes so they can just say the number and everyone will start laughing.
But I didn’t know that Anderson actually took all the calls. This implies that the [i]Oregonian[/i] made a mistake in its report. Did they acknowledge an error?
595 – they probably never will acknowlede any of their errors. If they would have cleared up what they misprinted, we wouldn’t be having an “investigation!”
596 – acknowledge, I mean!
594 – Lisa, yes there were many operations on Sunday. Hopefully, the report will list them…if not, I will be back here to let you know what they were!
Looks like more of the livelier types at MT are migrating over here. Welcome! Rogue River Rat, are you in SAR?
Where has it been clarified that he answered all the calls?
(599) Yes I am in SAR….Here with JOCO.
Last questions promise! And you don’t have to answer…
600 – I clarified earlier, sorry not sure of the number…but I am clarifying again now…I heard…he answered all of Sara R.’s calls on Saturday.
Re599: never mind R.R.R., I don’t need to know if you’re in SAR. So you raft a lot? Local perspective is Always welcome.
Livelier, crazier, or both, DH? Well at least I don’t smoke crack. I do this.
(604) Its ok I am proud to be in SAR, yes I raft ALOT, happen to run a rafting resort….
The newspaper story said he acknowledged not taking one of her calls. Was this a lie or a mistake?
re601: Thanks for what you do.
Why thank you I enjoy it
#606 – Great, what fun! And your fun translates into a valuable resource for SAR.
RogueRiverRat –
what do you think would be potential solutions?
And JoCoSAR –
Are most of the SAR operations on Bear Camp for
locals or visitors/travellers?
I find it interesting that I lived and breathed all this in real life and still do, and you all have lived and breath it here on this site. Very Interesting
The Oregonian wrote:
Her direct supervisor, an undersheriff in his last week on the job, said he ignored a late-night call from her about the case because he was watching an Oregon State football game on television.
This clearly conveys that the Oregonian confirmed it directly with Anderson himself. JoCo, are you telling us that there was no such confirmation? Did the Oregonian invent the information and lie about having confirmed it? That’s a pretty serious allegation.
RE606: My son in law rafts on Rogue a lot, he’s a river rat from Prospect, Todd S., my daughter rafts all the way down river with him.
(611) Well I am happy to offer my opinions on solutions, HOWEVER because I lived it, I must watch what I say, I don’t believe there is a REAL solution for it.
I love the rogue!!!! Rafting is great!
re612: I guess we envy you, living vicariously. I’m shameless, but harmless also. I mean well.
613 – the only thing I am saying is that no calls from Sara R. were ignored, period. What the oregonian did is another story..
I don’t envy RRR, or anyone else for that matter. I would much rather sit in my living room and pick it apart than actually DO any work. God forbid.
(619) Somedays I can agree however someones gotta do it!
JoCo, did the Oregonian not ask Anderson directly whether he took the call or not? The article said they did. The newspaper’s statement was worded in such a way as to make it crystal clear that it was directly verified by an interview with him. Is that false?
re615: You may actually be right about no REAL solution. I’m willing to concede that possibility. I have not given up on a solution, but I can definitely see what you’re saying. I am spending a little time tryin to get word out that JoCo SAR needs some Trucks etc., at least that’s something concrete I can do for SAR… you deserve it.
There is never “no solution.” But there might be no practical solution from a SAR point of view.
621 – Pac, I wasn’t there man…really! I wish that I knew why the Oregonian did what they did, but I don’t. So, here I sit in my office talking to all of you scanning documents!!!!!
Do you think it would have been helpful to Sara R if
Anderson had been more involved in the “courtesy
clearing of roads” earlier – or it wouldn’t have
made any difference?
I wish I could ask if you think Anderson was very
helpful in general but I know that is probably
completely out of the question.
I know he was “running the search.” I am just curious
about what mistakes were made, that have been and will
be learned from. But I know I have to wait!
(622)You are absolutly right! I believe as long as people want to go out and have fun and no matter the publicity on the Kim search or on how the search was handled a gate, signs, or even someone standing at the enterance of the road people will continue to go up there and get stuck and get lost.
JoCo, if the statement by the Oregonian was a lie, i.e., they never interviewed Anderson and asked him that question, then people who know this to be the case should contact the supervising editors at the Oregonian because I think they’d definitely want to hear about it.
625 – oh how I wish I could answer that one…I will someday…
627 – I think you are right. Too bad the Jo Co people have been ordered not to contact or even talk to the media!! I am hoping that all of that will be resolved in the investigation…there was more than just that very quote that was wrong mind you!!!
(593) Thanks for the input…that doesn’t seem very good. You would hope more from people…
JoCo, if you weren’t there, then how do you know what calls Anderson did or didn’t answer and whether he was interviewed about the issue by the Oregonian? Are you going on what people have told you? How do you know that you’ve been told the truth?
630- After being a member of SAR for over 7 years I have given up on “hoping” for more from people, its why I enjoy what I do for the county!
(596) Sorry JoCoSAR…I think an investigation was warranted in this case…it is too bad it took articles like those to call for one.
631- How do you know the Oregonian is telling the truth
(601) Thanks RogueRiverRat for all your efforts and work in SAR…you are a hero to many people out there and certainly to us as well.
JoCo, typically when a newspaper makes a statement as specific and unambiguous as the one in question, the reporter has a tape recording of the interview. I’d be VERY surprised to learn otherwise.
631 -ok, you know I can’t get into how I know. I am telling you that I am 100% sure. I can tell you that without telling you how I know. I have to leave it at that.
636- do they tape phone interviews?
(634) That’s the point…we don’t know the truth…we would like very much to hear it.
Well keep your eyes posted on the news!
However just be patient and take it with a grain of salt (especialy from the oregonian!)
640 – Hi River, yes, if anyone will be watching, it will you all and this group for certain! BTW, I’ll add my thanks and appreciation for your hard work.
I appreciate all of your words!
(640) I think you will find the people here read just about every news source they can…most of us have talked directly to SAR, locals, and reporters on this issue and have done a ton of research. Most of our reactions are based on what limited (and incorrect in some cases) information we have.
The bottom line is you have about 14 people now involved on the outside that want to try to figure out ways to help SAR and specifically JoCo. We are not fully sure how this going to happen yet…but we are resources that can do something.
BTW…RogueRiverRat if you can include the post you are responding to in parens i.e. post (641) Yes RogueRiverRat we are trying to be patient…
That will be helpful when we are answering and for others that join the mania later. 🙂 Thanks.
re631: this has been covered and attempted before, but since JoCo can’t reveal his identity, these questions can’t be answered until at least after Jan 5 review so as not to compromise the investigation… plus Daniels told them not to talk. Right JoCo? Close?
638, it varies, but my friends who are reporters often tape conversations. They’ll ask the interview subject if they object, and rarely does anyone do so. It used to be hard to tape phone calls but technology marches on.
That is great news! Get involved would be the first step which is what I see here, JOCOSAR has told me you all were pretty cool thus why I have posted tonight with you all.
It may sound strange – but I can’t tell you how badly I
wanted to – carefully – not recklessly – but I wanted to go down in that drainage and haul some major ass! I am an
experienced, agile hiker who likes challenges, especially
for the most important reasons.
I love wet, slippery Oregon wilderness – even creek beds in an emergency! (When I can return to dryness and warmth.)
I know outsiders aren’t allowed to help, I understand
for organizational and safety reasons. But I tell you – if I had lived nearer – it would have been excruciatingly difficult to not have tried to do something significant.
I was pacing the floors at home virtually non-stop wanting to be able to do something – to try to help in time.
And I am considering one day volunteering for SAR!
Thank you RRR for sharing and for the work you do. I’m glad it’s fun for you. 🙂
Pac I am not sure what the laws are in Oregon…but the recording of phone calls is illegal in a lot of states. You must have permission to do it. In some states it is legal to record the conversation if one of the parties knows…but it varies state by state.
634, I don’t know that the Oregonian told the truth. But if they didn’t even interview Anderson then the newspaper’s lie was small but as blatant as blatant gets. I could imagine them misconstruing something in an interview, but not concocting the information and the fact of an interview out of whole cloth. That would be very surprising to me.
649- Then fill out and application and start volunteering, on a low key level even! Every little bit helps! In some cases we do allow emergant volunteers we pair them up with one of the SAR folks, we have done it one previous searches.
glenn (651), you might want to consider reading what someone actually writes. It would really improve your understanding of even small issues.
652 – I told you already…that wasn’t the only lie in that article that Sunday!! I have seen the documentation that backs up the truth, and that’s not what was printed!! The truth was told to Michelle Roberts in a taped in person interview, yet told differently in the paper!
(648) I am not sure how cool we are…most of us are geeks. We are also very opinionated in some ways but most of us are very open-minded and when presented with information we digest it and if necessary adjust our position.
I would also say we are on SAR’s side for sure. We don’t try to take shots at the feet on the ground. If you read back I have been very critical of Sara R. and Anderson based on the information I had. As that information changes about them so will my position and my perspective.
One of the best things about JoCoSAR is she has improved my perspective quite a bit and I for one would back her up even if she was in a position that made mistakes. JoCoSAR has shown me she is serious, intelligent and really trying to make something right.
From today’s Oregonian…
In a statement announcing the sheriffs’ association investigation, the Josephine County Sheriff’s Office pledged the agency would make public and correct any “procedural errors or timeliness issues” revealed in the review.
“We feel that it is important that not only should the decisions and procedures implemented during the Kim family search be reviewed,” the statement said, but also that the decisions be reviewed by an organization with experience in such reviews.
Jake Weigler, a spokesman for Kulongoski, said the state and local investigations will be quickly followed by the appointment of a governor’s task force.
That group will take up any changes in state and local coordination that may be needed, Weigler said. But he said there are no plans to take authority away from county sheriffs, who are responsible under Oregon law for search and rescue.
“The governor’s task force is not looking to pre-empt or change that,” Weigler said. “It’s simply working toward better coordination and collaboration by state entities to improve these search efforts.”
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1167193516213980.xml&coll=7
Pac, I don’t think that you were here when I talked about this or not, but I did ask the opinion of those here what they thought about a lawsuit. If the Oregonian printed lies and that is proven, would Sara R. (who was only logistics section chief) have any legal recourse for something like slander?
656- I don’t doubt you all are for SAR, It is nice to see people on SAR side even if it a arm chair quarterbacking. I have to say it is nice to talk about it in “general” with people who AREN’T SAR
(657) I think that point about authority and the county sheriff’s comes from the discussion about New Mexico SAR…they had a vast improvement when they moved the authority from county sheriff to a state agency. Not sure if that would work everywhere…but it worked in NM.
JoCo, you have asserted that the Oregonian got it wrong, but you have not provided supporting detail and you are declining to do so. That’s your choice and for all I know you have good reasons for making it, but your assertion plus a buck and a half will buy a tall coffee of the day at Starbucks.
(660) I should have added…interesting how that point was made in the article though.
re648. R.R.R., what is great news???
656 – Glenn, I couldn’t agree more. I would back up JoCoSAR easily based on the genuine care that comes through, even if she was one that made mistakes. Hearing her explanations helps so much on perspective, too.
957 – can’t imagine what a governors task force is going to fix, but hopefully he is under enough pressure to do something! I can tell you that all of the Homeland Security state/federal grant monies have gone towards WMD, not at all available for SAR stuff..
(661)
JoCo, you and I can have coffee together now! Finally, I have someone to have coffee with!
Waited probably 1000 posts for that.
(661) You need new material buddy…that coffee line is getting worn out…besides anybody knows SAR doesn’t drink Starbucks…they drink cowboy coffee!
She has promised to come back and discuss anything in detail after the investigation is complete.
We don’t want her to lose her job because she talked to us…that’s just crazy.
663- Its great that there are people like you all interested in helping SAR and want to learn more about what we do and want to help out in some way (644)
(665) yeah until you need to rescue a terrorist…aye yi yi…isn’t life just insane!
661. 🙄
cowboy coffee? We drink Dutch Brothers coffee here!! And plenty of it…
I want to know though, where he is getting a cup of coffee for $1.50?
666 – LOL, tara 🙂 I was hoping you were reading along to catch that!
sorry, I tried with Pac..as badly as you want difinitive answers, know that I want to give them to you twice a bad..best I can do.
Yep maggie, Im glad I didnt miss that. : )
OMG!!! DUTCH BROTHERS!!!!!
(668) RogueRiverRat I used to a rescue diver…more like recovery diver and I did it in the cold – under ice many times. I can somewhat understand what you guys are going through but it has been almost 20 years since I was active.
I used to be certified as an EMT as well. I haven’t been involved in SAR like you guys have to do.
I have a feeling that State Police Officer Powers was the one who may have noted that Anderson did not at first answer his phone call Saturday night, and he may have mentioned this at some point in his interview with the Oregonian, “off the record.”
And if this was the case, I think it was right of him to
notice this behavior on the part of the Undersheriff,
given the importance of this SAR investigation, even if
it wasn’t “Official” that is was fully in his county yet.
At this point many people in Oregon and California, including Officer Powers, seemed more worried about this case than the Undersheriff’s behavior suggested.
(671) yeah that would qualify as cowboy coffee…
671 – Sorry for my outburst… JoCoSAR, I knew I liked you, and now I get it. EVERY morning begins with Dutch, and that is a measure of a great person! (sorry, coffee addict, and they rock)
676- Rescue Diver just dosen’t seem like a just name, have you ever really “rescued” a diver, they all seem to be recoveries across the board.
678 – large hot white chocolate annhilator with 5 shots please!!
OMG, really didn’t expect Dutch Brothers to come up here. I’m off the eggnog back to hazelnut, but the Kicker is nice sometimes, too. OK, way off topic, reining in, calming down.
681- Large 911 with 8 shots please 🙂
682. Wow, that coffee gets you going, lol. I sure miss it; allergic. 😦
lol (682)
(680) yeah that is why I said that. However I was involved in a search for a cavern diver that we found in a large air filled cavern – still alive – that was the only one.
OMG – you guys are killing me – 8 shots??!!. The best thing that ever happened to my little Portland suburb town was when they opened the double drive-thru. I’ve dropped back down to 4 shots instead of 5, but it’s still sooooo good.
(684) u r being punished for something…allergic to coffee…u must have been really bad!
686- Very nice!!!
JoCo, the issue is defamation. In print, defamation is called libel. When spoken it is called slander. It’s generally difficult for a public figure — and Sara would be one for purposes of an article dealing with her job performance — to win damages for libel or slander.
A public figure must show that the statement was defamatory, i.e., that it injured a person’s reputation or business; that it was untrue; and that (in this case) the newspaper either knew it was untrue or acted with reckless disregard for whether or not it was true or false.
Mere mistakes don’t count. They’ve got to know they were lying, or have been so fast and loose that they were just as good as lying. It’s a very tough standard for a plaintiff to meet. Very few libel/slander cases are won by the plaintiff.
That’s why I’m asking you for specifics. See, the Oregonian‘s statement that we’ve been discussing tonight was phrased in such a way as to say in no uncertain terms that they interviewed Anderson and that, in that interview, Anderson admitted not taking the phone call.
If they didn’t even interview him, then I’d like to be Anderson’s lawyer because I think I’d have a pretty damn good chance at winning one of those rare libel verdicts. But if they interviewed him and simply misinterpreted his answer, forget about going to court.
As for Sara, she can only collect if they’ve defamed her in the manner I’ve described. If she’s pissed off about the paper’s inaccuracies in general, too bad. She’d be laughed out of court. The only lawyer who’d take it would be an unemployed publicity hound who wasn’t worried about the possibility of being disciplined for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
688- You might have something there, Glenn, lol. Makes my blood pressure take a serious drop.
So who wants to meet at Dutch Bro’s in GP and pick up their SAR applications???
(690) are you giving legal advice?
I screwed up the coding in msg 690. It wasn’t supposed to be all italics for the final paragraphs. Oh well, I’ll just assume you can puzzle it through.
690 – Thanks for that answer Pac. Sounds like the pitts…not sure how you could prove all of that. Too bad for her. I think that she really got the short end of the stick here!
glenn, I know the law of libel and slander very well.
692 – Believe me, if I was anywhere near there, I’d be there for both very good reasons!
697- I would be happy to fax or mail you one!
(696) I am sure…that is fully understandable…
Are you on the Oregon Bar?
JoCo, people aren’t necessarily supposed to like what they read in the paper. Often, you’ll have people claiming that the newspaper “lied” when it’s not so. I notice that the nearby newspapers haven’t done much coverage. Often it’s the out of town paper that will go after these stories because they can step on local toes at will.
698 – River, in all seriousness, is there anything I can do from here? If so, I would definitely apply – I doubt you’d want me doing any of the cooking or anything up high (afraid of heights and would need rescued…), but I’m sure I could do something useful.
Did anyone notice (677)?
Just curious…
700-I understand that, I have seen that often. What I am telling you though, is that they flat out LIED!!! No ifs, ands, or buts about it at all!! I am really counting on the investigation…still….
Our local reporter has done very well with his coverage on the search efforts and following stories. The worst part of that is that The Daily Courier is not online….not many people read that.
701- There is always something someone can do from some place. Better equipment would always be greatly appreciated, donations of $$ so we can get NEW equipment as you saw from the list JOCOSAR put, SAR uses 2nd hand stuff that we touch up here and there and pray while we are driving down the road that the wheels stay on.
702-I think that 677 was a good comment..I cannot confirm that opinion or not. I do know that quote about the phone call was from an interview with Anderson from the week before where Michelle Roberts did a very nice story about him. She used that interview for the week after.
(689) Someday when we meet RogueRiverRat I will tell you the hat-trick of death that caused me to hang it up! All three were up close and personal and two out of three could have been potentially saved but weren’t…all in a 9 day period. After 6 years of it – I had to stop.
(702) LOL…ur killing me…that was your best post yet!
Yes I read it…very interesting for sure.
706- Sounds like a plan…..
(708) You know what is strange…I have never forgotten their names, nor their faces but ask me to list my best friends from 20 years ago…
704 – Now that really is something I can do from here! Maybe this summer when I’m on a road trip down that way I’ll see some of you at Dutch.
709- I can agree with you I was talking the other day with a fellow SAR member about searches and we could name each one and remember pretty much EACH detail about it, however we couldn’t remember what we did the day before.
710- If you don’t mind what part of the state are you located in or west coast??
Thanks!
Goodnight!
Glenn, I didn’t realize your experiences. Wow.
712 – I’m near Portland.
Maggie – what county do you live in? If that isn’t too specific?
716 – No problem. I’m in Washington County.
709, 711
Latest research suggests that adrenaline substantially
increases memory imprinting. That’s why people remember
trauma/difficult/intense situations so well.
You could probably google it if you’re interested.
Washington County has the best SAR Coordinator ever!! His name is Tygh Thompson. He has an all explorer group (kids 14-21) He teaches our Managing Search Operations classes. He is definitely the coolest guy ever!
Well thank you Lisa, I just might if I ever get off this blog site thanks to JOCOSAR!!!
717 – I bet he would have a place for someone like you who is interested in helping…we all need help! You would love working with Tygh!!
The newspaper might have talked with the state cop, but he could not have been the only source for the Oregonian‘s statement quoted in msg 613. The paragraph was worded so that Anderson is the only person who could have verified the information.
The paragraph was as specific as it gets, which makes the allegation that it was a lie equally specific. Either Anderson was interviewed or he wasn’t. Either he was asked about the issue or he wasn’t. If he said it a week earlier to a different reporter, that’s beside the point. Either he said it or he didn’t.
JoCo, you’ve chosen not to answer my specific queries with specific answers, but instead have repeated broad allegations. Without more detail, there’s nothing more to say on that issue.
705 – JoCo, I was going to ask you, if you are at liberty to comment on this one, what your take was on the vast difference in the two Oregonian articles – the one that painted Anderson in such a sympathetic light almost from his perspective, followed by the one that was pretty scathing (the one I don’t think I need to describe…)? Any thoughts you can say about it before the 5th?
719 – Very cool, thank you! Is there typically stuff that a person can really do that pretty much has a regular 40-hour a week job (bet you couldn’t tell with all most posting here, but it’s true…)?
722-that’s ok Pac, I certainly didn’t ask you to fix it for me! I was asking your opinion, that was all.
(718) I can even remember distinct smells from that…and when I smell something similar it is like I am transported back there…quite a strange feeling actually.
(719) JoCoSAR that is how I actually got into this…I was a Fire Explorer among other youth organizations. The lessons I learned from all of that still carry with me today.
718…off topic… Lisa, I saw on one of the head channel programs that if you want to remember something, pinch yourself hard enough to cause a little pain and it helps to imprint the memory.
727- I would be covered in welts!!!
(727) Gayle that is twisted…but I like it!
LOL, River! That’s interesting, Gayle!
723 – I can only say that Michelle Roberts did the first one alone. She was assisted by three others on the second one. I had expected more out of Michelle on the second one, but who knows…maybe Peter had more influence on the second one? I was disappointed for sure. I know that week, Sara R. was not answering any press calls. She was asked by Anderson (who just had a great story written) to talk to Roberts. Roberts made promises that she didn’t keep. That’s too bad (although not illegal Pac, I know). I have to stick with my opinion that it was more Peter’s influence than to think that Michelle could have changed that drastically….
That answer your question?
re695JoCo: It would seem the short end of the stick by 2 sources, the Oregonian, and Anderson. I mean her supervisors left her out to dry to take all the criticism, correct? Of course, that would include Daniels too. And I guess Anderson would also have been instructed by Daniels to be just as quiet as Sara, correct? Maybe not. Management is under a different set of rules that the rest of county positions from what I’ve seen.
728. LOL, RRR… I think it works but I can’t really remember…
731 – Hmmmmm, yes, I think it does answer it. Thank you. That’s very interesting. In a few ways.
Anybody wonder why the Kim family hasen’t stepped up and said anything about the search or the press coverage?? Just a question
735 – I assumed it was just because they wanted privacy and didn’t want to get involved in additional hoopla right now. Do you have another take??
(735) I guess they are grieving…having their own personal issues. Not sure how I would be in that situation.
re735RRR: YES! But I keep getting shot down about my curiosity. Sorry guys, that’s the way I see it. What do you think, R.R.R? Why haven’t they stepped up? It seems like it would be difficult, but helpful in many ways.
735 – Having been in a similar yet different situation where the press was heavily involved, our family just wanted privacy and to be left alone for a while. I’m sure it must be the same for the Kim’s.
Well in just comparing it to the recent MT Hood search, the family was on TV and interviewed shortly after the deceased climber was brought down yet the media hasen’t done that type of thing with the Kims, nor has their imput been put in towards the investigation just seems weird to me at least. I don’t really have a take on it honestly just think its wierd the the father played a HUGE role in the search and then drops off the face of the earth
Pac
Your response to my professional critique of the ODOT map is laughable, I won’t go there. But I am still waiting for your professional and educational background.
So far I understand you know something about prison jokes, and claim to know some reporters and something about slander. I’m not sure what that means since you seem to think you know about a lot, but really, I would love to know what your speciality is, what you studied, what you do.
Thanks.
(735) I know in the Korean culture during grieving they really don’t talk about the death. They focus on the person’s life and what they did…not how or why they died.
I am not sure how long that goes for…
The Kim’s are Korean – correct?
re740RRR: My feelings are much the same as yours RRR. Grieving just doesn’t quite cover it in my opinion. So many families tend to do that, step up to confront the media a little.
Yes, definitely Korean. And death is definitely a different kind of cultural issue there vs. here.
740- I know that Spencer Kim (dad) was on his own private jet out of town about 15 minutes after the finding was confirmed…we thought that was strange too. I guess it might be a cultural thing? Maybe his legal counsel (who was active on the search) had something to do with it??
Have no idea about Kati though..
745- There wasen’t even a small press conference from Kati after she was found or anything just as if they all fell off the face of the earth.
745 – I didn’t realize Mr. Kim had brought legal counsel with him… Perhaps that is part of the silence? Just a thought.
Yeah, maybe it is cultural, something just doesn’t quite seem right though.
Tara you still around???
727
Gayle – that could also have to do with adrenaline,
I believe – pain causes/promotes a heightened adrenal response.
746 – I just assumed while still looking for James that Kati wouldn’t want to talk and that after… well, not then either.
(740) That is a difference in culture. I also think that Mr. Kim fully understands that decisions James made unfortunately ended his life. I would be surprised if Mr. Kim ever put any blame on anyone other than James.
For those of you wondering about the grieving family issues and Kati being forced to leave on or near Christmas it may be because she spoke out about something – that just doesn’t work for most of them in that culture.
Cultral or not it all was VERY weird and to not hear anything even really of thank you or a why dose the media keep hounding these people from them is just strange!!
752 – Hard to say, Glenn. I can think of several cultural issues off the top of my head that could have been related.
Mapper, if you are still here, can you remind me where your really cool post was about maps?? I think it was directed at Pac.
Im here, RRR.
747 – Spencer brought all kinds of resources..including his legal council from his business. Most of his employees were redirected to work on the case as well…
Hey, we know who you are….took us a while though…good to see you here!
756- OK just checking thanks!
“We” being me and RRR
757 – Wow. I mean I guess I can understand that if you have the money to do it, why not put every possible resource into trying. I just had no idea it was that extensive. Legal counsel on active search… Wow. Did that create more pressure for SAR?
tara – If you figured out who we are, please please don’t share!!! If you know who I am, call my cell phone!
speaking as a “SAR” person we didn’t know he did really, on the paperwork end of pushing it all nah no pressure!
Old home week in here?? 🙂
Hi JoCo
Thanks for your interest. The post I made was (473). I was going off my memory then a few minutes later I looked up the map in question and posted the link. It just confirmed what was in my memory except that the use of the color red in the map is even more prevalent than I had thought, and used more generally than I thought (not a good thing, really).
I also have some theories about the boxes in the warnings that are on that map, after closer inspection that I havn’t gone into. I might post again with more but just wanted to hit the main points about what could and should be different in that map.
I don’t know about old home week just a SMALL world!
740, 746
I think it’s different with Kati vs. the families of the
climbers on Mt. Hood because Kati was in the trauma.
That’s extreme emotional and physical trauma to be in with
your babies. Two of her toes had frost bite. Her children
were crying because they were hungry. Her husband is lost/missing, and then found dead.
Hey, Wanna Have a Press Conference? Fun!
That’s different from the trauma of waiting for news in
otherwise comfortable circumstances.
(757) That would be expected given his position…I am sure any one of us would use all the resources we have to find a son.
His lawyer…that is probably standard practice for Spencer. Something this critical he would want his trusted advisor along.
Outside of my wife…my most trusted advisor is my primary attorney.
(765) Mapper is good…I have seen her work!
768 – It definitely does make sense, and I would do the same. I guess I just didn’t realize how many people he had around him. Maybe I need an attorney (no good reason).
Thanks mapper! I wanted to share that with RRR.
(767) I am sure the Mount Hood families in the back of their minds knew this was a possibility given the extreme things their family members did.
I think their faith and wanting to show support drove them to do those pressers. It was important to them in this process.
Spencer…he had one mission and only one mission – bring his family home.
(770) Spencer’s life if filled with liabilities…true for most exec’s these days…but in aerospace even more so.
Thanks Glenn! And that was me under pressure/in a hurry with free data, you should see my good stuff! 🙂 You know in grad school I was involved in a plagiarism scandal (someone stole my work and tried to pass it as their own). It was really a great compliment, despite the audacity of it!
I just think Spencer Kim was so devastated – he didn’t
want to be in the “place” that took his son anymore.
775- But after putting your heart and soul into searching and helping people look for your son, to just up and drop it and move on to getting out, without your family leaving those surviving here?? Hhhmmm fishy to me
Kati will tell her story. Much of it is heartbreaking. Kati is very smart and she has an outstanding memory; furhermore, she is very straight forward so you can expect a good story when she finally decides on the proper forum for telling.
James really did live up to all the all good things you read about him. I personally believe he deserves to be commended as hero, but I can understand the reservation of those who beg to differ.
In my opinion James was a near perfect son-in-law and husband. I still have a hard time believing that we got the girls back alive and well.
re762 wow, cloak and dagger here. 8)
wpflem – thank you for your input, be cautious of PacNWer’s response..it may not be nice. Most of us in here agree with your opinion and appreciate your input.Are you a family friend?
re777: wo… kati’s family?
Thats great JoCo
I would be delighted if ODOT took some of my suggestions, some of them are very simple. The easiest of which would be, instead of changing the whole map (which I think they need to get away from the use of the color red for general purposes, but that is a big change that will take more time) they could change the warning boxes to another color all together, say, a good yellow, with a yelllow arrow and yellow text (deep enough so it stands out).
Unfortuatley after I inspected this map it looks like the warnings are an afterthought. They look like they were created in “paint” and added haphazardly and that would explain why the color isn’t quite right and the placement looks a little bit off. We used to use this technique for rough and quick communication between our city and the software company. It looks like they used this technique to add the warnings hastily, and that the person who added it is probably not the same person who designed the map. This is hard to explain but basically, I mean it looks very lazily done, and an afterthought.
Thanks!
I can’t leave the computer anymore… Every time I do, I miss something.
wpflem, welcome here.
(777) Thanks. A lot of here feel James is a hero. He even meets the requirement in Webster’s definition.
Your post was a much uplifting one…thanks again.
Fleming is Kati’s mothers name. Here name is Sandy.
what is Kati’s dads first name? is it william?
He goes by Phil I believe
re#777: Comment by “wpflem” Flemming is Kati’s families name. Are you in her family? If so, my condolences.
776
It sounds like you’re expecting all people to be
and act the same. People are’t. People respond to
grief differently.
I think he was so devastated – it just kind of
shut him down, and he just wanted to get away.
Some people find relief in communication. Some
people find relief in distance.
I really think his son was so beloved to him, in a way we might never know or understand.
Look at all he did trying to save him.
Jeeze… you just never know do ya?
Wow, this place is jumping, it’s hard to keep up. It will indeed be interesting to see if and when the Kims speak out. I’m not sure there is a united front there, however.
(752) Glenn, I saw Mr. Kim as a very pragmatic, focused individual with resources who didn’t hesitate to do what he needed to do. Very decisive. I wondered during the first part of the search why Kati’s parents were staying home, though. Without knowing their circumstances, I remember thinking that if my daughter and her family were lost, I’d be on the road or in the air on my way to the locale to be on hand, no doubt retracing their route or something just to keep busy. But since Spenser had taken charge, perhaps her family figured best to let him deal with it. I perceive Kati as less traditional than the Kims, and wonder if there was always a bit of tension in the relationship with the in-laws.
I think Kati is in a similar situation as Sara in that everyone is speculating about what she did or didn’t do. I think there is no way she doesn’t feel some guilt over this thing, no matter who had the idea to keep driving, who was watching for the turnoff, whatever, people always second guess themselves. She seems a resilient sort, so I wish her well holding things together for her kids.
788- I agree I just think its weird and was a new topic on the kim search to talk about. I don’t expect people to act the same. Just looking for others imput on it all.
788
People aren’t. – typo!
788 – I just felt so bad for Kati, he didn’t take her with him when he left…she was left in GP. She had friends with her, but James’s family left.
re785-786: I think I heard a jet just go over everyone’s heads.
793 – Wow, I’d just assumed they’d all stayed together and then left together.
re793 – wow, that’s too bad, how lonely is that?!
look at the review on her yelp site…same story there
777 – wpflem, welcome and thank you for posting… my most sincere condolences to Kati, you and the family.
(790) I can speak from experience working in Korea anyway…they don’t mess around. Very focused. You won’t find better person to have your back than a ROK soldier.
JoCoSAR – is the charter.net you gave still good?
800-sure
(793) Yes I don’t understand that either. Even with the culture differences…unless Spencer didn’t approve of their marriage in the first place.
#797, yes I sensed that also. Like I said, how lonely is that?
801 – I tried to send something, but I wasn’t sure if it made it or not.
ok, so the review page says that Kati drove to inlaws in LA for xmas. She stays in hotel for the night with her parents who drove from NM. I wonder if they are still together?? That would be so cool to be able to hear from that side~!! Or at least send our love to Kati and the girls!!
Penelope – if you are out there, virtual Cheetos and chocolate milk your way!!!
793 – I’m stunned hearing this. Never ever imagined that.
Hey RogueRiverRat…ur a guy right? Can we have some guy talk going on here…all this girl talk is starting to get to me… 🙂
804 – let me check..
807 – Glenn. 🙂
807 – lol, Glenn
807 how funny!! I was just telling RRR how funny it was to assume that you know someones sex on here..only to find out days later that they are the opposite!!!!
I need to take more estrogen so I fit in better!
I should not make assumptions.
But, I will say I was, like kati involed with a “kim” yes he even had the same last name and a very powerful/rich korean father. Now, they are not the same people and no two situations are the same. But I am probably about as american as kati seems to be. I almost married this person but he was honestly not as “good” as James seems to have been. But anyway, his father was a very, difficult, very very difficult man. But he provided for his sons and would have done the same thing if his son was missing. But, he would definitley not have been demonstative about his feelings unless he was angry.
I dont know the situaiton between kati and the kim’s but I think I kinda “get it”
thanks for joing us wpflem. I get the feeling that kati is all the things you said.
maybe I should spell my name like glen or glynn…maybe that will confuse people.
I’m a girl… but you all probably guessed that. Glenn, I figured you were a boy. Gayle, Tara, Lisa – girls. Mapper, DH – girls, but only because you’ve said. It really is hard to know sometimes…
(813) wow that is insight…thanks for sharing your personal situation. It is a perspective that few of us have.
maggie – I got it, thanks so much!!! I will respond when I can!
807- Sorry hate spoil your thoughts but I am not a guy
802
I don’t think it’s good to speculate about that now or
really our place, ever.
And even more so because Kati’s Dad was just here with
us and may still be…
807- But I can talk with a the guys just as good as if I was a guy!
and I remain “unisex” until after the 5th!! 🙂
813 – Mapper, I can very much relate. Was all the way to engaged, and he was great, but the cultural thing was going to be too much between me and his mother. He and I are still friends (even if overseas), and his mother is happy I didn’t stay there and marry him. He married a nice girl there, and all is well. I totally get what you mean. It can be very complex.
820 – River, really??? I thought so, too. JoCo is right – hard to tell.
It all the the name!!! What can I say~
I had pegged Mapper for male for sure!!!
Its all in the name sorry! typing and laughing too much!
822 – Just to clarify what I said, just in case. I, too, am not making any assumptions, just recognizing that cultural differences/issues can make things different than without them, and usually a bit more complex.
(819) You make a good point. I hope if Kati’s dad is here reading this – I hope he knows how we all feel about his daughter and their family.
I also hope that he is able to find something useful of this similar to JoCoSAR has done. At a minimum we may have helped in a very small way…but at least we have done something.
re820RRR- Yeah, I second that! 🙂
(818) Can you at least play one on TV or something? LOL
(822) Mapper where you in Seoul?
Maggie,
lol, yes, we have much in common! The cultural thing can sometimes ruin the relationship, if the parents are not flexible and understanding, it is especially difficult.
James and Kati, themselves seemed to have it figured out, and I am so sad for her.
Glenn, looks like you’re surrounded tonight. 🙂
Hey tara you still watching???
On central time here; have to crash. 7:00 comes early (yawn). G’night all.
yep. just reading quietly
Have a good night!!
(825) that is funny! I wanted to be ambiguous but, I have finally made several comments about my gender, but its funny to wonder what people think! I, like Sara have faced a bit of difficulty being female in my field of work.
Glenn, I was not in Korea myself.
ok girlfriends! I am off to bed. I have to get some beauty sleep and all that. Put some green stuff on and everything.
Seriously though, you guy are really great. We are learning so much and I am so looking forward to helping make this into something really worthwhile!
Have a good night…and to all you lurkers out there…jump in…the water is great and we don’t bite too hard. We would love to hear from you – good and bad.
378 I have not posted for a long time, just reading. Before Mr. Kim was found I post to J.D. that I also thought he was headed towards the river. The next morning I had a email from down south asking me to call them, which I did. It was a family member asking me if I had any other thoughts where Mr. Kim could be beings I new the area so well. I told them no and did say that he was in a very rough terrain. I then asked this person (which I will not give a name or phone number as this family has suffered enough) if the Kims had been over this route before and he said yes. Please do not ask me who this was because I will not give any info. Bob
832 – Very true, mapper! I agree that from absolutely everything I have read, James and Kati seem to have worked it out. Maybe I should not bring this up, but if anyone has read Kati’s Yelp thanking for support message and her recent hotel review and has not read the review that she wrote about James long before all of this when they were just living their regular lives, you really, really ought to read it. It is the sweetest thing ever – beyond just sweet because it is an appreciation of him that I rarely hear a wife actually say, let alone post. If you need the link, I’ll post it.
Have you heard anything about a Diamond Lake training this year???
Goodnight to all those being reasonable!
(840) Bob…thanks for making it clear…appreciate the input.
825 – Oh my gosh, Mapper is a Mappette??? And RRR is one of us too? Sorry, Joe and Glenn and the other guys, you’re sadly outnumbered here. JoCo will have to wait to declare formally, but it looks like the girls rule, for now. Dare I inquire about, er, Pac?
Interesting, this is the whole personal vs. sterile/SAR conflict…I’ve been shut down a couple of times for talking about the personal. Maybe it is a gender thing.
That’s why women should rule the world. Men don’t understand that personal IS the most important thing, the rest just follows.
Ok,carry on with discussions about signs and maps! But I sure do hope Kati tells her story eventually, in her own, beautiful voice…rather than just leaving clues on her Yelp page.
Pac is so male!!!!
If Pac’s not a boy, I’ll eat my sock.
(846) ahem!
there just can’t be any question about Pac, right?
(847) I have noted the lowercase “so”
846- Ok well……….I too hope that Kati comes and tells her story….I speaking from the inside of the search would like to know the inside from her side instead of all the speculation.
(848) (847) hahaha. indeed!
mapette! I like that! I might have to change my name now that the truth is out.
851 SOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOS
(853) makes you sound like a jim henson creation!
836- sooooooooooooooooooooo going to any snow trainings this year TARA????
840 – Bob, thank you for checking in and letting us know. Sounds understandable.
(854) just confirmed JoCoSAR is female. Thank you.
quit baiting me. Im reading.
you are so lying!!! lies make baby jesus cry!!!
859- I am not baiting you…just wondering if you fell out of your seat or something
(854) or are you in need of some emergency assistance with all those SOS’s…
840
Thank you Bob! I was hoping you’d come back!
But you’ve come at an interesting time because
the girls have the giggles…
Im reading with one eye shut. It cuts my night sleep requirements in half.
I would thinking being a unisex yes it is a SOS for help!
862-you wanted capitalized SO…I gave them to you!
Sorry for the giggles…
(859) Would the pop-up version help? Maybe Joe can enable that feature for you?
See how positive the forum has become since wpflem posted…Thanks we really needed that.
864 – Great tip, Tara! I’ve been staying up late reading, going to work half asleep reading, doing it all over again. All this time with both eyes – no wonder I’m tired.
864- I know you can’t do that! Your a night owl unless alcohol is involved!!!
Well, with three Jo Co SAR folks here now, what would you expect??
Not knowing the area, and having to deal with my wife who was incapacitated with worry over our lost family, I thought it best to stay in New Mexico rather than rush to Oregon and start driving over terrain and looking in ditches for our missing loved ones. We did fly to Oregon on the first available flight afer they were found. In retrospect I think that was the right thing to do, e.g. leave the search to the professionals, locals, and coordinated effort of James’ father who had some resources at his disposal. I did think it worthwhile to make the early public appearances to encourage and thank those involved in searching. None of the immediate family on either side is interested in media attention, but you can bet there a few distant relatives who have expressed a desire to be involved in the limelight.
Yes, Sandy and I spent Christmas with our girls, but they are now away for a few days. As parents and Grandparents, it is most wonderful to have a supporting role. The little girls have been the center of our Universe.
I couldn’t resist making a few comments, but do understand my reluctance to speak out to any appreciable degree. This is Kati’s story to tell.
Glenn, I want a pop up version…oh wait…version of what?
Ok…serious now…sorry!!! Thank you wpflem, from the bottom of my heart!!!
Hi Bob, thanks for explaining. I might have a couple of questions, but just for my personal curiosity.
871 – Nothing I can say can be the right thing, but thank you for being here and for speaking up. You have been thought about more than you know. Please feel free to read along or post as much or as little as you wish.
871-I had to watch for a few days before I could bear no longer to be quiet. I know how you feel, to a degree.
874 And what might they be?
(871) WOW. Thanks for your post. Please send along our warm wishes to Kati and the kids and of course my deepest sympathy for the loss of James to your entire family.
It takes real courage for you to talk here. I for one very much respect that.
And yes…kids are the best. Afterall that is why we do all of this!
wpflem – I met your girls. I fell in love with all three instantly. The babies are indescribable! Penelope and those cheetos…what a sight!
yes the girls do have the giggles, poor Bob! Glad he came back though.
Mapette does sound like a Jim Henson creation. She might also be a good character for some of the PSA’s!
Maggie I think I do have the yelp link, but I think I need to create an id on that site so I can read more. What I have read is really human and heartbreaking, and I knew I could relate to kati when I read her post on leggings!
Kati’s father–thank you for your input. I’ve seen you on T.V. and can see the love you have for your daughter, son-in-law, and grandchildren. I’m so sorry for your loss. Really, there aren’t any words.
And, I understand why you would stay in New Mexico. What does one do? Who gets lessons in these things?
I wish your family peace.
Whoever said people handle their grief in their different ways is so right, but talking about something in a constructive way seems so therapeutic and positive. Kati has a good start already, with her postings she’s done, so perhaps she’ll share more later. How overwhelming to think that you are suddenly the focus of attention across the country and beyond (goes for Sara, too). Seems like a good tactic to fight misinformation and speculation with truth and facts, for one’s peace of mind. Personally, it would be hard for me as I’m private by nature, but this incident has such potential for helping others.
(877) Hey Bob want to talk about some powertools for a little bit?
and joeduck is off playing ping pong was it?
wpflem – do you have an address that we can send messages to Kati? I have some things that I really want to talk to her about. You can email it to me at yodave@charter.net
883 ???
I think that Glenn is still on the Male/Female ratio in here.
Glenn is still over-estrogened! Please forgive him!
(886) see (807) I guess you weren’t lurking then. Just good to have some more testosterone in the house!
JOCOSAR did you just hear that pin drop in here???
wpflem
Thanks so much, I always thought kati or her relatives might read this, I have tried to defend her from the less understanding posters here. It really is her story to tell, and in my opinion she doesn’t ever have to talk about it if she doesn’t want to and I hope she knows that most everyone out there understands, can relate and doesn’t expect her to talk about it, but if she did, I would be right there listening intently!
Thanks for your words, please let her know we support her and feel for her.
Thanks.
(888) Did you get my email btw?
Please let Katie know that there are going to be many who critize her & James, but this ISN’T the majority, and for her to please try to best to ignore those. I’m not just speaking about on this blog, I’m speaking in general.
My heart goes out to her & her girls. Let her know that my family & I so enjoyed watching James throughout the years, back to Tech TV. I just can’t express my pain for Katie & her babies.
re871. Of course we understand your reluctance to tell Kati’s story Mr. Fleming. You are so gracious and understanding to be here. And of course you had your reasons that are none of our business for your location during search. It is a very sad story, and I wish your family peace and healing during this impossible time.
892 I did..thank you, that was very kind. I swore I responded to it though…it’s been a very long week! Sorry. I meant to! I did truly appreciate all of it. Can’t wait to speak freely.
841, 880 – This is one of Kati’s Yelps that I hope it will be more OK to post because it is beautiful – this one about James written 10/11/06, well before any of this nightmare:
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.
5 stars.
Joe…you just gotta love this place! Way to go man. This forum becomes more special every day. Something very positive will come of all of this…it might take a long time but it will happen.
So we were just discussing if Kati had been on Bear Camp Rd. before… I know people, pathetic. 😕
897 – Amen, Glenn!
897 – and I would suspect that we will all still be here!!
We all knew that family members were probably watching. We should always speak as those that we are speaking about will hear.
(900) yeah and guessing who and what everybody is!
Nope, after the 5th..I am leaving nothing more to the imagination!!
903 – The 5th is circle on my calendar that I need to put up.
871
Thank you so much, wpflem – I feel honored that you
are here, and that you have written to us.
I have tears in my eyes…
I know what I went through worrying and feeling for
your family, I can hardly imagine what you went
through…
Your grand-daughters are truly two of the most precious I have even seen!
And I have never seen a baby as precious as Sabine!(Obviously I haven’t had my own, or I probably wouldn’t be able to say that!)
I understand why you didn’t go to Oregon sooner. It is
best to stay home when under extreme stress, unless
there is more of a reason to leave. Why wait at a strange hotel…
I wish So Much Love and Blessings, and Healing to your family…
I am so glad Kati and the girls are safe, but I can’t tell
you how much loosing James broke my heart…
So strange, because I didn’t know him – but you could tell
how special he was…
871 – Thank you, and I surely didn’t mean to imply that you should have been in Oregon, just that I, being impulsive and having to be right in the middle of things, would have had a hard time not going. It just gave me a perspective at the time that James’ father was the take-charge type who had things firmly under control, and everyone felt comfortable with him running the rescue operation he set up. That was a good thing, not a negative.
Your family has handled this entire situation with grace and obvious gratitude for those who helped with the rescue, and if you were online here or elsewhere the day Kati and the girls were found, you know how much we shared in your joy and how awful it was when James was finally located. Please convey to Kati and the girls that many, many people had them in their thoughts and prayers, literally around the clock, during their ordeal and will continue to do so.
Good night all……….
Mr. Fleming, if you are still here…can I please ask you a very important question? You don’t have to answer it…
(903) Isn’t that interesting…on the 5th you won’t plead the 5th but with all the questions you probably want to have a 5th.
909 – Glenn 🙂 LOL
Glenn, you kill me…once again…truly male!
I might still be in Medford on the 5th. But probably will come home before that. Otherwize I might go hike Big Windy while I’m there. NOT!!!
JoCo… so get with it! What?!
there should be signs for people like you!
908 – Maybe it depends on the question…
Oh gnight Bob, we’re such flakes tonight.
Strange attitudes and tone, considering who we have in our midst.
Kati is inundated with emails and letters so it would be unwise for me to give that information out. Understand, I would be in big trouble.
I think I can say that Kati did think her parents looked like country bumpkins on the TV as she viewed us from the hospital, but she had maintained a great attitude about us. Actually we are usually well groomed professional people: elementary teacher / doctor. I was growing the white beard to play Santa Claus with Penelope. I had to sacrifice it shortly after flying to Oregon because we were all being cautious about avoiding the press. I had no scissors and only 4 Bic razors available in our hideaway home. Ouch, it was slow and slightly painful getting it off. Penelope watched. I look forward to growing it back next season. I kind of like the backcountry, old man look.
ok, I’ll try…
Mr Fleming, I was intimately involved in the Search for your family. Because there is an active investigation into the search, I cannot reveal who I am. What I do want to know though, because I have not heard…how do you and the rest of your immediate family feel about how the search was conducted? I am sure that you don’t have many details on particulars, but with what you know…
I am extremely interested to know your personal opinion. Perhaps it would help me sleep at night?
918 – Bless your heart. I see where Kati gets the humor and charm that comes through on the things she’s written on Yelp.
re840: “378 I have not posted for a long time, just reading. Before Mr. Kim was found I post to J.D. that I also thought he was headed towards the river. The next morning I had a email from down south asking me to call them, which I did. It was a family member asking me if I had any other thoughts where Mr. Kim could be beings I new the area so well. I told them no and did say that he was in a very rough terrain. I then asked this person (which I will not give a name or phone number as this family has suffered enough) if the Kims had been over this route before and he said yes. Please do not ask me who this was because I will not give any info. Bob
Comment by Bob Hollenbeck | December 27, 2006”
So that’s it, nothing else on the subject?
(921) Yep that’s it. What there was is all gone and there isn’t any more!
Bob, what made you think to ask them if Kim’s had been on Bear Camp Rd before?
wpflem – if you want to respond to my question via email, my offer still stands to email me at yodave@charter.net. I will keep your information completely private. I know that you have no reason to trust me over anyone else…maybe others here could vouch for me???
re922: How would you know Glenn? I was talking to Bob. 😉
Oh Kati’s Dad, that is so sweet. No, you did NOT look like country bumpkins, you just looked like hip parents who perhaps weren’t used to being on CNN (good for you!) And you wore the backcountry look very well.
Give our best wishes to Kati. It must be strange to suddenly be in the limelight under such awful circumstances. I have a feeling, given her obvious charisma, that she will pull through and give this tragedy its proper memorial in her own words.
924 – None of us have any idea who the heck she is because she can’t tell us, but we (or at least I) do believe that she was an active person involved in the search, cares deeply about all of you (as I think we all do), and would sleep better if she knew that she’d done some good. JoCo, how’s that?
vouch
Deleted at request of D.H.
I know who she is and I can tell ya that she was and is VERY involved in the search and is a very trust worthy person to talk with……
927 – that was perfect. thank you.
928 – Tara, you kill me.
818 – Would only assume male because so many associate “rat” with men. 🙂 Clearly bad assumption.
River Co. on the Rogue…hmmmmm. Used to guide on the Deschutes, Upper Clack, White Salmon & before that rivers in WA, but don’t know many of the Rogue Outfitters.
Wpflem,
I saw you on Tv too. You both seem like great parents and grandparents to have!
All the girls are so lucky to have you after something so traumatic and I’m really so happy that you have posted here. All this time I have felt I could understand Kati but I dont even know her. I’m just happy your out there and she has someone to fall back on during this hard time.
I dont even know what to say! I’m just happy to hear your words whatever you choose to disclose. I hope the negative, though few, posters on this site and elsewhere out there do not get to Kati emotionally and that you all stay strong for her. Your attitude sounds perfect to me and is a relief to me that she has you.
932- Well I am an outfitter I got and MRP number and all!!!
Ok I think I just heard that pin drop again in here!
At this point from what I know now I would vouch for Sara R…not sure I can vouch for JoCoSAR as I do not really know who that is. 🙂
Nah then who would we talk to!!
I’m having a terrible identity crisis!!!
(947) Look into the mirror and take a moment to reflect upon it. You will figure it out. Hey did you know that you can never really see your own face? You will only ever see a reflection or image of it…never the real thing.
I can touch my nose with my tongue though…doesn’t that count?
I can curl my tongue!!!! Do I count?
(952) That and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee!!! LOL
Wow.
I can count…1,2,3,4,5,
I want to know where the heck you get coffee for a buck fifty!!!!!
A shame.
Oh well, I hope you do stop in again, Kati’s Dad.
951 – LOL, yes, Joy. It was one of many, though, which is why I couldn’t help but ask. I sincerely hope that either it’s all a joke or that everyone is OK with it that needs to be.
I am surprised Joe Duck is not around here somewhere…
926, 934
I agree!
I feel like I’ve logged onto some weird version of “The View”. Very nice to hear from Kati’s family, welcome and thank you for joining us. I go away for a few hours and all h— breaks loose…Bob H. has even rejoined the fray (welcome back Bob). And now there’s another river rat besides myself…all kinds of stuff going on!
Ok so how about them Yankees??? Good team huh!
962 – Paul, I know. Ya know how you mentioned being on here too much? This is why. If you go away, stuff happens, things become known, people show up.
(958) I don’t think anyone that is on here now means any disrespect with any of this.
Many of us have countless hours involved in this and other similar situations. Having Kati’s dad post tonight was such a positive thing and it was like a breath of fresh air – I just think we are all responding to something so positive.
For a while this was the biggest downer going…still very sad but at some point we all need a break.
I don’t see any shame here.
Yeah, but I think Glenn and I are in a distinct minority…surrounded by women. hmmmmmm
glenn – check your email.
Glenn- I agree knowing your past involvment with some SAR type stuff you understand that some times you just have to laugh it off everyone deals in there own ways!
Fair enough. I can only comment on the Fleming side. I really have no knowledge of the Kim view as it relates to the search.
Sandy and I are extraordinarily grateful for all the public, private, and individual efforts and resources that went into the search for our beloved, once lost family. James and Kati found themselves in a terrible predicament that many of us might have landed in under similar circumstances. I think it is very unproductive for us to look back critically and assign blame for action or inaction that may have saved James’ life. However, it may benefit others to do a thorough postmortum on this ordeal, not to lay blame for what might have been but with a constructive eye to improve process in future cases.
I would like to say over and over how I am profoundly grateful we are to the private helicopter pilot who found our girls.
I also want to clarify that I don’t have much first hand knowledge of the search and rescue facts in this case. I saw essentially nothing on TV while the case was ongoing. We had limited TV reception in Oregon and we were sensitive to the presence of the children.
I did find it most interesting to follow the story of the three lost climbers on Mt. Hood. I can only imagine all the real-time media attention this case must have received.
In summary, I would say to you JOCoSAR sleep well just knowing that you were an active participant in the search. We lost a wonderful person and someone I thought of as I do my own son. But without all the work, this story could have been much worse. I sank to that level of desperation agony without any real hope in my mind for many hours prior to the discovery of the girls alive. At least we still have James’ manifest in those precious little girls and I suppose that is largely what life is all about.
Joy, I don’t think that any of us have said or done anything disrespectful at all. I think that Mr. Fleming sounds like he has a great sense of humor. I think that he may be laughing with us. Remember that he has probably been watching us all for quite some time…he knows us better than who we have been for just the last hour.
965 – Glenn, even if I’m pretty sure this isn’t what Joe had in mind, I agree with you that none of us mean any disrespect whatsoever. We’ve been hashing this thing out for weeks, all of us constantly thinking about the Kim’s. Kati’s dad shows up and is very charming and real and supportive of his daughter in a way you can tell will help make things a little closer to OK for her and the girls, and that’s a happy thing.
Mr. Fleming – thank you, I think that we all needed that. I know I did.
964 – there is this small thing called sleep…I keep getting too little of it because I jump in before bed and something monumental happens, like Kati’s dad signing in, and I’m online for far too long.
You should know, whether you believe it or not, you all have become part of our families over the past several weeks. We truly love you all. Thank you for sharing.
969 – Thank you, Mr. Fleming. We are so glad that you are here. I think Kati has a great “rock” to lean on in you. We rejoiced right along with you when the girls were found, and I think James will live on through them, too.
(969) Thanks again for your post and perspective…it means a lot to many of us here. Amazing that you took the time to come and talk to us. Thanks again and I sincerely hope you haven’t taken offense to our frolicking this evening…we really needed something positive and you delivered that in spades!
It is the goal of many of us here to try to do something that has long-term value and can make a difference for someone in the future that finds themselves lost and in need of help.
wpflem – If PacNWer shows up again, just don’t read it.
D.H. I replied…
965
It’s just important to remember what’s decent and
respectful…
There’s a time and a place for everything…
I don’t know how wpflem feels, but… it’s all
gotten kind of out of control.
And, I have been kind of suprised – I would be
interested in knowing Joe Duck’s opinion…
OK, all better.
(967) ditto
Well, I don’t need to remind anyone to check their email, so I’ll just say goodnight, and thanks again, Kati’s Dad, for stopping in and posting.
983
Once again I am behind…
973 – Paul, me, too. So much!
Glenn, didn’t get it…
Yes, I too must sleep. It has been one very lively evening! I think we may have set some kind of record for the speed with which this page got to 1000 (almost there now….). Goodnight.
Sleep is over rated!!
This is suddenly no fun whatsoever.
(983) Absolutely true. For people on the line – humor is an amazing tool and is sometimes the only tool that can get you through. For SAR and Emergency Services personnel sometimes they can be de-sensatized to others in a given situation – they have to – it is a form of defense otherwise the job eats you up.
No exaggeration Lisa it almost ate me up. Dreams almost every day for two years just because one really lousy week + 2 days.
Not trying to make an excuse – just asking for understanding and an open mind. All of us here are now connected whether we like it or not because of this tragedy.
To be respectful and decent means we need to make something positive out of this now.
I fully respect and understand your position.
Oh Tara WHERE ARE YOU????
(990) ok I’ll bite?
BTW ladies if and when I get to JoCo…we have some patches to swap.
991 – D.H., I tried to present it delicately out of concern – truly. Perhaps I failed, and if it came across as something other than concern, then I do apologize. JoCoSAR has endeared herself to me in a way that I didn’t want to see her in jeopardy. She’s cool with it, so I am, too.
983
I don’t mean to take away from anyone’s fun –
I just needed to voice those ideas…
993 – Sleep is in short supply because of this all-addicting blog stealing it away from me (ok, I let it steal it away from me).
(1000) cool with me…no problemo here!
You made good points.
997 – nevermind…I got it now…
(1001) Yes I was going to bed hours ago…and I have to leave shortly…like now. Gnite all. Thanks and take care.
1001 – Paul, I knew you wouldn’t really go to bed.
There is seemingly so much going on “offline” betwixt parties that it is getting hard to follow the line of conversation “online”.
Nite Glenn nice meeting ya~
So for anyone who hasn’t gone to bed yet – can you imagine his face when Joe checks the comments and realizes how many this quick?
(1008) We should all swear…Joe will drop in his tracks…ah…I didn’t mean that…please nobody swear…ok
Glenn, are you really leaving?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Glenn.
Paul – there really isn’t much going on offline…really.
(1010) I am on the east coast…3am here! LOL. I have to get up early take my daughter to the airport…yikes! I still have a house full of guests – they think I am nuts already.
Just so you know, I never type LOL unless I am laughing hard enough to hack up a lung.
It IS challenging to tear oneself away from a room full of interesting and intelligent ladies, but I truly must say goodnight.
Goodnight all! Cept me for a bit more.
(1014) TMI – LOL
(1010) But I will be back at 6am to see if your still JoCoSAR…see if you can hang with the GUYS.
I am not tired but I think Tara fell asleep, she let that other eye close!
I usually don’t check in until about 11am. Tomorrow should be a very busy day, may not be around here much. I can’t wait to see Joe’s reaction though…
Wow, what a night it’s been. This is why I can’t leave. It’s almost late enough to be safe.
Wow! I guess I have to sit on this blog 24/7 to keep up!
Dr. Fleming it’s really nice that you are here, thanks for participating in this blog “community” that is on balance really supportive of Kati and your grandchildren. Those of us with kids (and without I’m sure) can only imagine how difficult it must have been to be up there for so long.
Also great to see RogueRiverRat as another search insider.
D.H. I erased the post about a half hour ago but until you/others “refresh” the screen it’ll stay up. Remember I can’t be here all the time.
I have my interview with the investigator tomorrow, they said it should take at least 1/2 day!! That’s good news! I can’t wait! Sorry, but in this case, I would much rather be there than here!
Glenn – you’re on the East Coast !?!?!?…and I thought I was nuts.
1021 – We were just talking about you. How’d we do, Joe?
OH geez Joe…welcome back! We really missed you!
re1021: Thank you for rescuing me Joe, I try not to make it necessary again.
1023 – Paul, I thought you went to bed??
1022 – JoCo, I bet you will be glad to get the process further down the path to some relief. And closer to answers for all of us.
Hey, I played good table tennis but there was more excitement here. Great stuff!
Hi Joe –
Did we set a Joe Duck speed record getting to 1000 ?
I’ll have to put up a new page for tomorrow…. if this keeps up we may have some sort of comment record. Now more than 3000 comments!
.. and yes Paul I think tonight had the most comments per hour I’ve ever seen anywhere except major forums.
Thank you for the welcome Joe, however I have to blame it on JOCOSAR for my presence here……JOCOSAR needed an addict buddy for this place 🙂
1027 – I’m going, truly I am going…Joe, have fun with the ladies.
1030 – Did you ever in your wildest think you’d get so many comments? This is amazing. And you’ve been amazing having us here. About every 1000 comments or so I think you should hear that before putting up a new page 🙂
Goodnight Paul!
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz – Thx Maggie
Bye Paul, thanks Maggie! RogueRiverRat JoCoSAR really brought back a huge amount of interest here and everybody really has appreciated the comments and the obvious sincere concern you SAR folks brought to the Kim search process.
Hey Joe, any chance you might check your email??
JoCoSAR and RogueRiverRat feel free to repost this link to your online sign up forms for SAR teams:
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
Well it has been a true interesting experience for me since I have only been able to talk to two people about the search and roles played in it and to hear others concerns and not just media is nice
JoCoSAR – I just got your mail and will take care of that shortly …
Tara is your one eye still open??
RogueRiverRat I also want to make sure you understand that a lot more people are reading here than commenting. It “feels” like a small group but about 2000 people come every day to read various posts and comments, mostly about the Kim Search.
Well, I know my friends wouldn’t understand. Glad to know my addiction to this blog is not completley abnormal! This has been an exciting night (all relative I guess, depending on how you see life!)
Paul, you crack me up. Yes you are surrounded by some fascinating ladies, it must be hard to break away!
I am not as addicted as I was in the beginning, but Maggie and Paul, and everyone else reading with one eye, well I am a light sleeper anyway, but I share your issues! well, not issues, I dont mean it like that…you know what I mean!
Good night, if your really gone!
Thank you for letting me know, as I said JOCOSAR turned me on to this and she informed me of the same thing.
it is strange how we can be sitting here chatting with the same several folks, and then all of a sudden..someone totally new pipes in. It is so cool!!
969
Thank you wpflem – I agree with you wholeheartedly
that learning and not blame is most important, and
will ultimately do the most to honor James. That is
why I personally, am here – because I wanted to help
in someway – anyway that I could.
I wanted to try to do something for James…
And it is so true that he lives on in those precious
little girls…
It is even nice that there is so much video of him that
they can watch when they want, as they grow…
I believe you exemplify the best attitude, and as a doctor
you must be practiced with these issues, but it is always
different when it is with your own family.
I am so happy that Kati and the girls have you and your
wife. When I saw you on tv, you both just shone through as
such tremendously good people who were still very concerned for James. I did not see country bumpkins… although I
also loved the beard story…
I am not even sure if you are still here, but I just wanted
to thank you again…
Goodnight All ~
1036+ – It really is nice having different angles to see. I think many of our minds have changed more than once since things started unfolding to now based on what we were hearing. Just for me, at first, there was little criticism of how things were going because that wasn’t even the focus, then the questions came after James was found, then *the* Oregonian article which seemed to give voice to many of our questions and explain things one way, and then hearing from the mysterious JoCoSAR who was clearly the real deal with plenty of explanations for things that no one else could have and making sense and just being a real person who cared about helping and likable on top of that. Suddenly, most things became unsure and my mind was opened once again. All that’s gone on here (well, that plus about a million other things, too). This has been such a great place. No one else around me is talking about this anymore, but here everyone is. It’s the right place, and it keeps getting different every day not knowing who will show up or what will be said. Very cool.
very well said Maggie. Thank you.
1043 – It’s OK, mapper, you can say it – we have some of the same issues (actually, it is a little eerie…).
1049 — and your even from illinois!
1050 – Yep! And then the thing tonight about culture. Issues 🙂
So what if you all knew all this hard work went into the search and those FEW paid people who put their hear and soul into the work on the search were to be laid off in January??
1052 – Joe, is the word sucks allowed here? If not, I’ll just say that I really think that would be very unfortunate, and I would wonder why.
#1052: Are you kidding?
Because of lack of funding!
No joke at all…..
re1052- If that were true, I’d say what’s this state/county coming to, anyway?
All county employees got a “pre-pink” slip today saying 100 people will be laid off
1055 – OK, I’m going to sound ignorant here, but I don’t really get it. People like you are needed. So then what happens?
Well we ask ourself that EVERY DAY
Oh No… that puts all our fancy ideas into an entirely new light…
1052
well, I would reserve judgement on that til I read about the investigation.
It would be sad, no matter what. But unfortnatley these are the risks of public work. We have to be ready to be scrutinzed and its not always fair. Its my belief the protocol should be blamed and not the employees (from what I understand and have read), if anything is to be under scrutiny here.
I believe, maybe too optimistically, that if anyone is fired they will move on to better and brighter opportunities with many lessons learned about the public sector and SAR in general, maybe even a better life. But that is the optimist in me.
JoCo, I have one question (I may have already asked it here, it’s late) that I’m not sure has been mentioned per se. Are 4WD clubs utilized in your SAR operations? Obviously you must get lots of volunteers including such folks, but I guess I’m thinking of clubs that could have their members attend training and be certed or approved to assist. You wouldn’t have to start from square one with them, and they’re already used to teaming up with each other in remote areas. I was thinking in particular of clearing that tangle of roads off Bear Camp Road or of course the more general road searches before it was narrowed to that area.
My family was active in 4 wheeling some years ago, and our club and others were always looking for public service projects, i.e. cleaning out and repairing guzzlers, etc. The clubs have radios (ours did, I should say), the participants have been “trailboss” at one time or another, and it just seems a good fit. Hopefully this is already happening, I was just curious.
Which 100 people? How many co. employees are there? So they aren’t saying exactly who yet?
Well SAR is a non-profit organization that is associated with the Sheriffs department, so instead of having someone like Sara R. to cordinate us and that be close to her soul job we would have some road deputy who wouldn’t give us the time or day
Sure Maggie it’s allowed. I’m mostly just against personal attacks and will probably bleep out “profanity”.
1062
I hadn’t read your further comments before posting this. People are being laid off due to funding, nothing to do with the Kim case?
That sounds suspicous to me.
1064-Oh who knows the total amount but your looking at our patrol deputies being impacted, dispatch, emergancy services, records and so on……
re1062: No, I think the reason is lack of funding, not performance issues. They just used the last of the fed/state funding they were getting this year.
I tried to copy and paste the letter, but it’s a pdf..didn’t work.
Folks – I deleted the text of a handful of comments made last night. OK to email me if you have questions about why your comment was deleted: jhunkins@gmail.com
No not tied to the Kim Search just bad timeing for it all, it is something we face each year around this time HOWEVER it will be VERY real this time, and SAR will most likely be impacted from it all.
1063 – that’s how jocosar started in 1967. I don’t know enough about 4×4 clubs to answer really. Sounds great!! I am not even sure if we have those here???
1072
Its sad indeed. 100 hundred people is an awful lot of people.
If funding is that sparse, its all the more reason for the USFS, BLM, and ODOT contribute as much as they can to prevention by way of signage and mapping. I hope there is enough pressure on the richer agencies to do their part.
You would be looking at lact of communication with the sheriff dept to SAR and lack of leadership…..Possible delays in the usage of the team also
JoCoSAR – for PDFs the best thing is to just create a link to the page. We could link to the PDFs but if we get much more traffic here this might put minor strain on the JoCo server because those PDFs are huge and many people would click out of curiosity. Probably NOT a problem though but you might want to ask your IT if they are OK with a few hundred downloads of the PDFs in a short period of time.
Here’s the page: http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
RE: lack of funding
I’m really not even sure what to say. I know so little about any kind of a solution. Such scary thing. It sounds like there is some cooperation between counties – does that come into play when this happens?
Joe – I really don’t have access to that type of IT resource. It came in an email this morning and I don’t suppose they are going to want to post it on our website. Oh well..
Well……not really….unfortunately funding stays in each county they can’t share that really, but they can share their searches just as the Kim where we had MANY counties participating they can call us to use us but can’t give us money or leadership
Well then, if they get rid of paid SAR/Emergency personnel, then I guess it would all fall on the Sheriff dept. anyway. It might just be semantics. But I’m sure the people laid off wouldn’t consider it semantics. It would further cripple an already seriously underfunded dept., I would think. Like the way they cut back number of State Police a couple of years ago. This year suddenly the Governor finds more money and wants to hire more State Police.
Now let me get this straight… is Sara specifically being laid off, or just potentially laid off?
Well….All 100 are POTENTIALLY to be laid off
Joe, is there a way to copy and paste the text?
Wow, Medford is in dire strates to, having to get rid of some libraries… right after the built a really expensive main library.
JoCoSAR – don’t worry about the IT stuff – the PDFs are already online at the JoCo website so all I’m talking about are links from here to there to encourage people to sign up like RogueRiverRat was doing earlier. But of course only a handful of the folks here are in Josephine County. I’m over in Talent but most of the active commenters are from far away and probably most of the readers as well.
Yes you could copy and paste the text (open in Adobe, then use the “copy text” tool which is near center of toolbar and let’s you drag over text) but it would not be very usable as a printed form…
Well we have lost ours already and our fairgrounds is next…Its a county thing
Talent is a good city I use to work there!
I know that our apps are online already, but I dont believe that they will publicly post this letter…that’s all.
D.H. County budgets all through Southern Oregon are getting cut hugely because we are losing the federal funding that has replaced taxes lost when timber lands were locked up by the feds (called O and C funding). It’s a very big deal here.
RE: PDF
JoCo, do you mean that the emailed the letter to you as a .pdf, so it’s not posted but also not able to copy and paste because it’s protected?
JoCoSAR I missed something and didn’t read about the letter. Yes, any email can be cut and pasted into the comment box BUT of course make sure it’s not a confidential doc. There may be a county policy about sending/posting county info in that fashion even if it was not sent as “confidential”.
Thanks Joe #1088.
copying pdf …take a screenshot of the pdf text and post the image at a free image hosting service and link the url here… that should work OK
Joe, I can forward you the email and you tell me what you think… there is no policy about that..that I know of…
Do D JOCOSAR tells me your a mobil DJ is that true??
So is what I ment not DO…its getting late!
JoCo – Like Joe said, if it’s not confidential, was sent to you as an email attachment and you want help posting a picture of it, I could help if you wanted to shoot it to me.
in yer box
1093 – To Joe, even better. He’s da man!
re1094: yes, I confess, a mobile DJ for weddings, parties, schools.
1099-
Very Cool job!!
So R.R.R., do you need a mobile DJ? Fund raising dance or something? Let me know, I’ll do it for SAR/Sheriff of JoCo for free if I’m available.
Well if we need one for SAR I will look you up, HOWEVER I do run a resort and its always good to know DJ’s for special events are you willing to travel??
Yeah, it’s kinda fun, I can keep em dancin’!
Very nice, always like a good beat going on…..Did everyone fall asleep on here its just us girls???
Yeah, I can travel most times of year. That’d be cool.
Ok can some one translate for me please what does IMHO stand for??
They may have gone to sleep I guess. DeemazonDJs.com.
In My Humble Opinion
Aaahhh ok I get most the lingo some how I missed that one.
I’m here. Will regret in AM. But I’m here.
uuuummm its the AM….hehehe
Just ’cause Glenn’s on the East Coast is no excuse, it’s only a wee bit after 4 there. It HAS been a long night, though, lots of excitement and the unexpected…
I think I’m crashin pretty soon too. See you all tomorrow!
It was nice chatting with you D……
Ohhhh Tara did you go to bed??? Did that other eye close on ya??
Ha – I’m not asleep yet but should be!
JoCoSAR I got the letter and will see about posting it. It’s not a PDF so need to post the image which I can do at a different page and then link it up. I can do it in the morning.
Goodnight D.H.!
1112 – I’ll second that, Madeleine!
Well we seem to have narrowed down to one time zone now…
Reminds me of the article I read recently that women get less sleep, and have a much more difficult time in the a.m. than men do, generally.
hey, its after 3 here in the central time zone! Luckily I have a very flexible job but I am not good at managing my time!
Ooopps Sorry! Was it Mappette now?? 🙂
yes, I may do a name change tonight, into mapette, hopefully everyone can follow! 🙂
OK, I give up, it’s a wrap for me, g’night, all.
Goodnight all, I need to set up a new page for tomorrow’s comments. OK to leave more comments here until you see the links to the new comments page.
Well then it has been a real treat however I mist travel to my own home…..
good night all, thanks joe. I’ll be interested to hear everyones reaction that missed tonight’s activities!
I must sleep immediately. Tomorrow trying to work while peeking and posting here is going to be more difficult. Good night to all!
Goodnight all I must travel to my own home now, JOCOSAR is kicking me out of their house…I shall check back soon……as long as JOCOSAR keeps me hooked to this dang thing!
1126 – OH, now THAT will be something, huh?? Like I said, can’t miss a minute sometimes… Stuff happens here.
1128 – I have to ask before I sleep – were you two sharing one computer this whole time??
Nope two in one room!
OK, now I can sleep. Goodnight all!
It would be JOCOSAR’s house that has a room with THREE computers hooked to the internet remember all in ONE room!!!! However we chat and have been working on our search paperwork at the same time AND carring on our own conversations seperatly! Now thats Talent@
I’m impressed! And now I’m really going to sleep.
IMPORTANT!
IMPORTANT!
Go to https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon-4/
We have passed 1000 comments on this page so I’m moving the discussion to a FOURTH comments page here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon-4/
IMPORTANT!
PLEASE DO NOT leave more comments here. Go to the NEW PAGE above to leave comments!
I was having trouble closing off the comments box without losing comments so it’s staying up for now.