The James and Kati Kim Family Search discussion now spans ten pages of over 10,000 comments. Click HERE for the back story, pictures, reports, and previous pages.
Governor Kulongoski’s Executive Order establishing SAR Task Force
The discussion continues below in the comments section.
Joe Duck 
The James and Kati Kim Family Search discussion now spans ten pages of over 10,000 comments and continues below.
For the back story, pictures, reports, and previous pages:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/kim-story/
Thanks to JocoSAR for this reference to Governor’s Task Force for SAR:
Click to access eo0701.pdf
If Regional politicians didn’t generate enough hot air, the ball gets bounced up to the statehouse for more hot air generation.
Atleast the Civil Air Patrol will be included this time. Maybe fixed wing resources will no longer be given such short shrift.
😀 ATTENTION 😀
Thanks to leads from John James I’m getting more details from Jim Roper at the BLM about the project to improve Bear Camp signage. Please let me know by email jhunkins@gmail.com or here if you want to help out with this effort which will probably happen this spring.
The list of participants in the OSSA report includes a couple of CAP names. I don’t recall entries in the report about these individuals or CAP. The report does say that this case was unusual regarding the number of aircraft involved (though they were all helicopters). But, would fixed winged aircraft had any better success than the Carson helicopters?
Larry Kendrick Medford Civil Air Patrol Commander
Lieutenant Bob Soltz Civil Air Patrol
Bruce Barron Retired Air Force
I wonder if fixed winged aircraft were involved in the Stivers search. The object in that case was a larger 35′ RV. They were stranded near a ridgetop airstrip. They might have been easier to find from the air than the Saab in a small forest clearing. Maybe the big difference in that case was there weren’t many clues to help narrow the search area. That and the fact that the public didn’t feel quite as much sympathy for the victims.
Do the BLM signs on that north route need changing as well? While I have looked that route on shuttle map, I couldn’t name any of the BLM and FS road numbers.
paulj
Here’s an account of a NG crew using night vision equipment to locate a victim, or rather her fire. This was Carolyn Dorn, who was originally found by a couple of hikers.
http://www.krqe.com/expanded.asp?RECORD_KEY%5BNews%5D=ID&ID%5BNews%5D=19252
http://www.startribune.com/484/story/938433.html
These come from a NWHikers forum. I don’t know if anyone else is paying much attention to this case.
paulj
Bruce Barron was the Josephine County SAR Captain, who just happens to be a retired Air Force.
Barron’s name was in the list right after the two CAP people, so I just included it in the cut and paste. The list isn’t specific as to whether the individuals participated in the search and/or the study. Probably a mix.
paulj
Jeff Han demonstrating a wall-sized touch screen for Google Earth
http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2007/01/super_touch_screen_f.html
8 – Kip, that is awesome! Reminds me of watching Star Wars at the theater for the first time, for some reason.
(8) Kip, that is so cool! Thanks for the link. I think that is the best demo of Perceptive Pixel yet!
1090)-Page 9, John, thanks for taking the time to write the lengthy response and answer to my question. I had the same understanding about the “chain of command”, etc and that is why I asked the question.
Really glad to see that you spent the time with Sara and got to some resolution for both of you. I think in the future as other things happen up and around Bear Camp your knowledge of the area will be valuable once again and this time I think you will have everyone’s ear!
Trying to understand how you feel about not going back down that road – man that is a tough one. Very sorry to hear you have that burden on your back – personally I think you did what you thought was right and it ought to be left at that. Hindsight as they say is 20/20. I hope you can find a nice piece of baggage to drop that guilt in and send it on a one-way trip far away.
Your right about John R. and thanks for saying it. BTW the dictionary version of Hero definitely applies. Of course just don’t listen to Charles Wilson he uses an alien dictionary anyway.
Lastly as far at the BLM signage project, is there anything, anyone can do from far away to help somehow?
Kip RE: Touchscreen. Incredible and very cool.
8. Kip, Oh my, oh my, oh my…the brain of people who think of this stuff is astounding…
8/Kip: Wow…dare I ask, what does this technology cost if it’s even available to the masses ? Imagine setting up a search grid using that. Sure, maps work too, but in 3 dimensions, with the ability to readily manipulate ?
An impressive way to manipulate those pixels.
Often data is so complex that visual presentation is used simply because complex and voluminous ‘hay’ often conceals some very important ‘needles’.
That touchscreen thing reminds me of the Tom Cruise movie. “Minority Report” (I think that’s the title.
A new SAR case in neighboring Curry Co (a kayaker and his dog). A Coast Guard helicopter assisted.
http://www.triplicate.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=2474
See the Jan 26 Non Sequitur comic for a road sign. The base of Peavine detour might be just the place.
http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/
Not to be used for navigation:
Okay. I have seen various diagrams reproduced in magazines and training materials bearing such a legend. Now some of it to me is lawyer-talk and no one would have ever used it to navigate and in other situations perhaps a pilot actually might have.
Given the limitations of what a map can depict would a bold box of ‘This area not navigable with this map’ be appropriate for forrested mazes such as this one? Or would this particular forrested maze have such high use that some sort of supplemental insert should have been supplied?
I’m not suggesting a return to the days of maps bearing legends that read ‘beyond here are monsters’ but perhaps maps oriented toward tourists and main roads should bear an indication that they are instruments of limited usability in certain more remote and rugged areas.
Do I think the primary burden should be on the traveller? Ofcourse. Yet a more prominent warning legend might also help to create a psychological awareness of ‘you are entering the outback here, mate. Take survival gear with you. And a better map!’
Most state maps have expanded sections for major urban areas. The back 2/3 of the ODOT map has these, from a large one for the Portland area, to small ones for towns like Grants Pass. Of course these areas have higher road densities than the rural forest areas.
Other states have expanded sections for popular tourist destinations. South Dakota for example expands the Black Hills area, and includes FS road numbers. Yellowstone is another likely expansion candidate.
In Oregon I think the Mt Hood area, and Columbia Gorge deserve expansion sooner than most areas in the southwest, at least, based on tourist traffic. One multistate map book that I have expands Portland, Salem, and Crater Lake. The Crater Lake one includes viewpoints and picnic areas.
While Bear Camp has gotten a lot of attention in this case, it is hard to say whether it it unusual compared to similarly marked areas in the state. Some place I came across a 100 cars per day summer use figure, and significant number of those may be Roger River shuttle drivers. In the winter, most users are locals seeking winter recreation.
Among summer tourists, it may help to distinguish between those who are just seeking a short cut from I5 to the coast, and those seeking camping, hiking or boating opportunities in the area. This is a lightly visited part of the coast. Look for example at the density of day use state parks further north. To the south are the redwoods of California. The Rogue River is perhaps the biggest tourist attraction in this area. The part paralleling Bear Camp is the wildest, but areas upstream and downstream offer more recreational opportunities.
paulj
Evaluating the dangers of roads like Bear Camp is a bit like evaluating the dangers of cougars. Just in the news is a story of a couple who survived a cougar attack in a state park just a bit to the south in California. I just saw a Nat. Geographic documentary on cougar attacks on Vancouver Island. Yet the statistics are some thing like 1 cougar fatality in 3 years for all of USA and Canada. That is well below deaths by dogs, bees, snakes, etc.
Guess what road ODOT describes as ‘one of the most dangerous roads in Josephine Co.? Not Bear Camp. US199 on the west side of Grants Pass. Jo Co SAR is probably called out for more river accidents, and missing hiker cases, than for lost motorist cases.
On I90 crossing the mountains east of Seattle, there have been 4 deaths due to falling objects – 2 by a tree Thanksgiving weekend, and 2 by rocks a year earlier. Should there be warning blocks on the map: “Beware of falling rocks and trees”? Obviously the state needs to keep working at reducing these dangers by stabilizing slopes and cutting dangerous trees. But I don’t think general warnings and signs make much difference.
paulj
“‘you are entering the outback here, mate” – there is a part of Oregon that is nicknamed the outback – the half east of US97. Distances between pushpins are often on the order of 50 or 60 miles.
paulj
I would agree that a general warning sign would make little difference in the situations we read about and probably makes little difference in the situations we don’t read about (those wherein the signs are heeded) however certain highly trafficked yet dangerous routes are akin to the steep hills that have runaway truck escape lanes wherein emergency gravel patches will slow trucks that lose their brakes. Or consider those steep hills that just have an ‘extra’ truck lane off to the right for trucks that need to creep slowly along. Certain places are both full of mazelike spurs and also heavily travelled by the less than fully informed.
One of the issues that came up in the Kim search was resources, or lack thereof, for less affluent counties in Oregon like Josephine. This mornings Oregonian discusses the loss of key Federal funding and its affect on communities in the area – notably Talent, home of Joe Duck.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1169871911293760.xml&coll=7
Hi to any regulars still lurking. 😛 Miss the comraderie of you all, but concede until the Govs. Task Force releases its findings we’ve discussed this tragedy thorougly.
From another blog:
I worked with James Kim for five years and I knew him for probably 7 or 8 years and I never him to be a wealthy man. In fact, when he first got to San Francisco he was paid a barely liveable salary. He lived like a lot of us dotcommers– not much higher on the hog than a spartan college-type lifestyle… tiny apartment, living meager paycheck to meager paycheck in an ultra-expensive city. He worked his way up to where he was, but he was never what you would call wealthy. And his wife’s stores were selling crafts and such– hardly a super-profitable business.
Yeah, sure 😉 You’re one of his friends, right? No need for lies here. Kathy Kim’s Yelp comments were reposted online already, about how they were spending $150-$300 on dinners (meager, yeah…) and other high spending and shopping sprees. They were rich yuppies who thought the world should roll under their feet.
anx, trolls are not welcome here.
25.Paul –
Yes, I also miss the comraderie & the intelligent discussion & even disagrement, it excercises one’s mind and gets one outside of one’s own exsistence & forces one to look at others views. If there is anything of any significance in the Gov. Task Force report, some will probably come back. Others who added a great deal here, I seriously doubt be will back under any circumstances as their lives have been negatively impacted on a personnal level by some people taking things much too far.
For anyone who posts on any form of public forum, blogs, etc. should keep in mind if they can not take people disagreeing with them, even at times getting a bit heated, then DON’T POST. They are not forced to post.
There’s an old saying, if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
For JoCoSar,
Sara, if you are still checking this blog, I flew the River yesterday from Hog Creek to Agness (about 70 miles) looking for Curtis with no luck.There are a lot of boats down to Graves Creek and then none in the canyon ’till I got to the Clay Hill Stillwater. There are a lot of drift boats from Foster Bar to the ocean so I didn’t spend that much time down there. I looked over all the obvious eddys pretty well such as Horseshoe Bend, Battle Bar, Mariel,Blossom Bar Pool, Devils Staircase, etc. Some of the river is in the shade all day and is just real hard to check. On my way back over Hog Creek a women was standing by the river all alone waving so I landed on the boat ramp and talked to her for awhile. She is Curtis’ girlfriend of 14 years and goes down there everyday. She says the family has excepted the fact he is probably gone but they need closure so I will spend some more time in the Canyon when possible.
By the way, Bear Camp Road is open all the way over now. The loggers in the Agness area are using it but one must take the Peavine route and the Burnt Ridge route down the other side. I’m somewhat concerned about the big gullys on the Peavine route if they get anymore snow up there so I fly that route on my way back from Agness. The road slid in again at the 4.6 mile area of Bear Camp Road and went all the way across. It looks like it knocked the concrete barriers into the creek from the helicopter.
Call me sometime, I’d love to buy you lunch and I’ll come to Grants Pass.
John quite an honor to have you checking in here at the blog, and it looks like SAR over there has a great new volunteer.
I have JoCoSAR’s email and will pass this along immediately.
I think that the use of black unlabeled lines for paved backwoods roads such as Bear Camp, is a perfectly good way of saying: ‘There is a road connecting these communities, but do not rely on this map for navigation in this area’.
When I drive through an area like this using only an ODOT scale map, I use a combination of dead reckoning, and road signs to guide me. The distance signs (Gold Beach 60 miles, 40miles, 30 miles ..) are particularly useful. Since the map does not give road names, the road names on the signs don’t help me that much. Those distance signs were prefectly adequate to get Kims to the FS23 junction. They only ran into problems when they tried to find a way out of or around the snow on the main route.
Regardless of the scale of the map, there are always details that it does not show. Even a computer program like MS Streets &Trips at greatest zoom does not show drive ways. I don’t expect the map to warn me that certain details are missing. In most cases such warnings would only clutter the map, and obscure the details that are present. Digitized maps can get around that issue by turning details on and off, either automatically or under user control.
One piece of information that I would like to see on maps is a road speed. State and federal highways are engineered to meet certain speed standards, but lesser roads can handle anything from 50mph on good county farm roads to 15mph or less of rough forest roads. If Bear Camp was marked as a 30mph (or less) route, it would be less attractive as a shortcut.
However adding this kind of information is only practical with digitized data bases (computer, online, gps), and even there its usefulness will depend on the quality of the updates.
paulj
(28) John R…wow! Amazing to hear from you. Personally I think it is incredible that you take the time you do to help out.
Oregon is privileged to have you as a citizen. You are an inspiration for the rest of us.
Joe once again your special spot in the Internet never ceases to amaze! You really have created something awesome here.
John Rachor – wow, great to see you stop in here! You are just amazing. Thank you.
John Rachor is an amazing guy and certainly a super hero to our family. Joe, he does do you honor by stopping by.
His postscript in a communication to Sandy and me reads:
“The best thing I have ever seen in my life was Kati running around in the road waving her umbrella.”
I get choked up with tears every time I talk about John’s letter. I was privileged to read the quote above to both Kati and Governor Ted Kulongoski.
I talked with Kati this morning. She and the girls are doing well.
Sandy and I consider ourselves two of the most fortunate people in the world to have had our girls returned to us. We will always miss James, but at least he lives on vibrantly in two of the most lovely little girls a Grandpa ever had.
[28] – John Rachor, I certainly admire your initiative and your willingness to help freely… a super wonderful role model. Thank you!
Mr. Rachor, thank you for your heartfelt and selfless efforts in conducting your successful search for the Kim family.
Your willingness to use your off time and skills to help others sets you apart, and as Kip said, you are indeed a wonderful role model.
This blog has brought together so many who cared about this case, and your stopping by is another tribute to Joe. His integrity and lack of any agenda except preventing future such tragedies has made people feel comfortable enough to talk with us, and I’m grateful to him for having created Joe Duck.
Thank you again for what you did and are continuing to do.
Mr. Rachor, thank you for posting.
Some of the old regulars tonight 🙂 hi kip, glenn, madeleine, maggie, paul, frances, joe, I missed you guys this week! good to check in and see you guys!
and hi to you Kati’s dad. good to hear from you too.
Hi, Tara, Glenn, Dr. F., Maggie, and all the diehards who have been here all week while I’ve been checking in and out. I miss our discussions, too. What a treat to find a post from John Rachor!
28/John Rachor – thank you so much for your tireless efforts to help others. You’re an inspiration to us all.
Joe Duck – they say a truest measure of a man is the company he keeps. If this is true, you have fine company indeed (John Rachor, Katie’s Dad, Sara R, Detective Mike, John James, etc.). That you have created a very unique and special place for the voices of this tragedy to gather and share is indisputable. Thank you.
I, too, have missed all the voices checking in today. It is so very good to hear from you all.
Hello all!! Good to see that most of you have not left here completely! I think that we are all guilty of lurking around. Old habits die hard!
John, you are truly amazing…just as I told you when I met you in person, I am still “star struck!” I can honestly say that I have never met anyone like you in my life! What a blessing we are to have you here with us! I can’t wait for lunch…will it be Burger King Whoppers??
I have your card still, waiting for its frame in my office…I will be in touch. Thank you all!
PS
We had yet another search today. An 81yo male with Alzheimers left his house for a short walk in the middle of town. He was found about 4 hours later walking very quickly along the freeway southbound several miles from town. He thought he was “going home!” We picked him up and took him back to his very worried wife and daughter.
Hi,
I don’t really want to sound crass about things but I would just wonder if the cost of that ‘yet another search today’ Alzheimers patient could be tallied up and compared with the cost of those tracking bracelets for Alzheimers patients that were discussed well upthread.
Query: Did the “Burger King pilot” have a cell phone with him at the time he first encountered the stranded vehicle and gesticulating woman? Did he drop it?
paulj 22,,,
Okay. If there is a region of Oregon that is so remote and sparsely settled that it is informally known as ‘The Outback’, my question would be: do the auto maps of general distribution indicate the lack of motorist services in the area? Oregon is an unspoiled, outdoor recreation oriented state. Alot of areas are rural and perhaps dangerous in Winter, but is this one area known locally as ‘the outback’ indicated as being an unsafe area to enter without survival gear?
I know we’ve been over the issues of how sensible it was to take the route across to Gold Beach and how sensible it was to proceed without adequate clothing and food/water. We’ve also been over the issue of warnings by signage and by map legends. I just wonder if this one notable area that you mention happens to be indicated as a bit dicey on any of the maps that someone would pick up at the tourist-oriented rest stop near the state’s borders on the freeway?
As you know, #42, the ODOT map includes a box with an arrow pointing the route that the Kims took. Inside that box are the following words, in red type: “This route closed in winter.” Also, the Kims were seen by two separate witnesses, one of whom was interviewed once by an Oregon State Police officer and again by Portland Police detective Michael Weinstein, at a tourist information center in Wilsonville, Oregon.
The Kims got their ODOT map at that center, and the employee who spoke to them told them not to use back roads to the coast at this time of year. Maybe Oregon should have a personalized warning for each negligent traveler, augmented with flashing neon road signs and loudspeakers? Seriously, what more do you want?
The ‘ask locally’ warning box on the ODOT map is located in the lower right panel, close to the SE portion of the state. So an individual browsing that part of the map is likely to see that warning, more so than someone focused on the SW part.
Also most individuals entering this area have survived similarly remote parts of neighboring states. I don’t see any warning boxes on the Nevada state map. I84 from Utah has long stretches without services before it gets to Boise.
I expect that US395 heading north from Lakeview has a warning about ‘next services 140 miles’ (Burns). So the sheer lack of towns in SE Oregon will be a clue to most drivers that services are few and far between.
What might fool some drivers in SW Oregon is that they can get into spots without traffic and cell service that are only 30 miles from a freeway.
There was a well publicized stranding in NW Nevada near this remote part of Oregon. The Stolpas, driving to a family funeral in Idaho, tried to bypass snow on I80 by driving north in California, and then east on backroads aiming to reach NV140. One survival documentary built around the Stolpas experience, suggests using tires in a signal fire, just as James did.
paulj
Hello all! I have been keeping track of this blog over the course of some time. To tell the truth I really don’t know what to say. When I first heard this story I was sad and angry about what had happened and my first instinct was to find blame in someone or a certain group for what had happened. But after reading the thousands of exchanges between you all I realized that it wasn’t that simple. Certain folks seemed to be criticized more than others the Kim family, Josephine County, Sara R, and John James placing blame on himself. But I’ve found that there really is no one specific person or event to place blame upon is there. To our logical instincts that doesn’t make sense, but life doesn’t always make sense by our standards. There are people all over the world trying to find ways to take the lives of others and James Kim died trying to find a way to save the lives of his family. He tried to do something beyond himself, something bigger than logic I guess.
And even though we don’t know it yet I think James has succeded beyond his expectations. We will never know how many lives in the future James’s trek will save. Whether it be changes in search and rescue tactics or signs on Bear Camp Road. He, his family, SAR, and you all have touched peoples hearts, made people think, and that wealth can’t be measured. I think this blog should be required reading for anyone researching this issue. I have learned more from it than anything else I’ve read so far. Thank you all for trying to make things better in the future. Thank you JoeDuck for making this possible. I hope to hear from you all soon. Peace
Fools Gold #41
Yes, I was carrying a cell phone in the helicopter. I did not drop it to Kati for several reasons:
1-I could hover no lower than maybe 100’in her area due to the tall fir trees. I figure from that altitude the phone would become a projectile.
2-On bear camp road I only have cell service at the 9 mile area (weak), the 12 mile area (where the Kims tried to call, also very weak) and on top at the 20 mile area at the junction of the burnt ridge road(very strong).
3-I try to avoid hovering over anyone at low altitudes as an engine failure means you are going to descend onto them.I hovered off to the side where Kati could still see me until the Carson helicopters arrived.
4-I was fairly busy flying the helicopter, recording the lat/lon from my GPS, relaying the lat/lon to SAR command on one frequency, and talking to the Carson helicopters on another frequency.
5-I knew the SAR snowcats where only about a half hour away and were headed that direction.
6-I wanted to get back to the area where I had seen James’ footprints in the snow so I left Kati as soon as I saw Scott Dunn (from Carson) land down the road to pick her up.
I hope this answers your question and just let me know if you would like any other info.
John
#44, I have driven on I-5 through Oregon and U.S. 101 and lost cellphone coverage in spots. People not familiar with this part of the country tend to forget that Oregon is 1.5x the size of New England but with only 3.5 million people. It’s not the East.
Now, there’s something else that had gotten very little discussion on this board, probably because this is a place where questions and/or doubts about the Kims get, at best, a chilly reception. The issue is the fundraising efforts for the Kims by Scott Nelson Windels.
I’m not seeking to imply anything untoward about Mr. Windels. The issue is why those efforts are necessary. I was talking about the Kim case last week with a good friend who has an Asian business partner, and he was truly shocked about the Internet fundraising.
“Charlie, you have no idea how unusual this is,” he said. In all of the Asian cultures, family ties run very deep because of the Confucian influence. It’s nearly unthinkable for an Asian grandfather to stand back while people are running auctions to support his granchildren, my friend said. Even if the grandfather wasn’t wealthy it would be unthinkable.
I asked whether, say, the grandfather’s strong disapproval of the marriage would be enough for the grandfather to cut off the grandchildren in a situation like this. No way in hell, my friend said. The rift would have to go MUCH deeper than that.
This one of a bunch of aspects of this thing that makes me quite strongly doubt the veracity of the information Kati Kim has provided to authorities. I think there’s another story to be told. What it is, I’m not sure. We’ve done some speculating on our website, but it hasn’t involved the fundraising.
Something is deeply amiss here. For Spencer Kim to walk away from those grandkids, which the fundraising activity clearly implies, is a big shocker when you filter it through Asian cultural norms. Even acculturated Asian American norms. This sort of stuff just doesn’t happen.
45 – Theelkbugler, I’m just lurking lately, but I really liked how you summed up what’s been going on here on Joe’s blog and wanted to say that I feel much the same way as you do about… well, pretty much everything you said 🙂
Hey folks I’m just back from a trip to Roseburg. Thanks for the nice comments above and so glad to see several of you “checking back in”!
I stopped in Merlin at the 76 station, which is about 5 miles from I-5, to ask about the Kims. The attendants were pretty defensive but one said he thought it was the “morning shift” who talked to them. He suggested that the Kims should not have listened to directions so I got the idea they may have been misdirected but this was 2nd hand info.
One thing that made me realize how easy it would have been to think that road was clear was the fact that on the way south along I-5 you hit a couple of fairly high mountain passes. It would have seemed reasonable, even to experienced drivers, to think they were seeing the conditions in southern Oregon “mountain country” on the trip. Unfortunately the I5 elevations are much lower than Bear Camp, which gets very high very fast.
Charles you should give it a rest. As the story becomes clearer with pieces of new information you seem determined to challenge the Kim family and friends in inappropriate ways. Everybody understands your thoughts about this and I’ve let you post many pages of speculation here that I personally found offensive and probably inaccurate – no need to belabor these points here any more – keep them to your own site as you agreed to do some time ago.
50/Joe: Well said.
Significant time and energy went into building their site, but they are never content to stay there. Could it be no one wants to play in their sandbox ?…or that the only ones who want to play in their sandbox are those who totally agree with their perspectives so they get bored and are compelled to come here to try to stir up conflict ?
Does anyone recall whether there were weather warnings for Siskiyou summit that weekend? It has about the same altitude as Bear Camp summit. I recall snow warnings for Washington passes because relatives had to cross them, but didn’t pay attention to Oregon roads.
Kati was familiar with one of the lowest crossings of the coast mountains, OR 128 from Eugene. There are some hints that Bear Camp is higher, but, a casual map user could easily miss them. Brandy Peak at 5298′ is a bit to the south. The Rogue River is 5 miles to the north, while various tributaries of the Illinois River start on the south side of the Bear Camp ridge.
There is one creek on the north side of Bear Camp(Howard Ck.?). If I were modifying the ODOT map, I’d add Big Windy, and maybe a few others, just to add more clues that the area between Bear Camp road and the River is rough.
But a pass symbol with altitude and name might be a better addition. ODOT doesn’t do this for any non-state passes at the moment, but they do have the winter closure warning on selected routes such as this. Pass notations might reinforce the closure warnings.
paulj
It is possible that altitude figures, symbols or colors on a map might have alerted the Kims to the inherent danger in a wintertime trek through the area. In one area east of Seattle a “Pass Conditions” sign and radio frequency sign alert motorists well before they reach the summit. Ofcourse such a sign is on the freeway, not some back-country but commonly used shortcut which is safely used only in good weather.
Driving directions, maps, signage, deceptively alluring intersections, failure to obtain gas/food/water, failure to endure one more day of cold, hungry children… it all mounts up. I don’t know if any one item of and in itself should carry great weight. Maps can go unheeded and at night with poor lighting might not be of much use anyway. Signs can go unnoticed or can be obscured by the very snow they are warning motorists about. Through routes to the coast can be marked, but such a sign can direct someone away from a nearby shelter of some sort.
One thing the posts here and the official reviews have shown me is that there was a great deal of work done to locate the missing family. Far more paperwork involved in this project that I could ever have imagined. Sure there were some ‘speedbumps’ to be overcome such as the hesitancy of the hotel to reveal credit card and cell phone data even under usually honored procedures. Sure there were some limitations imposed by lack of resources in poorer counties. Mistakes and miscommunications are not exactly ‘par for the course’ but they are not exactly unheard of either. The various reviews and meetings are attempts to determine what could have been done better and to see that next time things go better. I think that for the most part a great deal of work was done in a very short time period and that overall it was a job well done. Its simply the results that we don’t care for but those things do indeed happen from time to time. Maps simply can’t bear warning legends about not trusting gas station attendants who seem to communicate poorly. Not every backcountry logging road can have a sign stating ‘deceptive slope…will not lead below the snow line’. And just as there may have been miscommunication at the gas station there may have been some later miscommunication about ‘cleared roads’ and ‘Bear Camp Rd’.
In many fields precision of communication is paramount. Standarized language of aviation, procedures for a two-man police car running lights in Manhattan traffic, identifying who a good tipper is when a dealer gets relieved to go on break, etc. Some fields have ‘one write’ procedures simply to avoid repeated communication of the same information. Some fields try to enforce specific phrase selection on a form. I don’t know how practical that would be out in the snowy discussions about spur roads though! In this day of clipboard computers maybe precise data entry out in the field will become more important. Certain errors have cost lives: the police clerk who entered ‘MO’ for Montana sent the warning to Missouri. A patrol car screen might need to display on the two letter abbreviation but the headquarters screen had space enough for the full name. Yet things went wrong. One cop miscopied one digit in a long serial number and the gun was later used to kill several people. Information has to be conveyed precisely in certain circumstances. It can be difficult though.
Joe Duck, I realize that you are loath to question or challenge the Kims any any way, shape or form. You have never been interested in the truth, but rather in promoting a particular slant that omits the most pertinent in formation, i.e., the paramount role of the Kims own negligence, Mrs. Kim’s lack of candor with authorities, key contradictions in the accounts and various other signs that there is much else not being told.
The real question is why you want to do this. Why do you want only part of the story to be told, Mr. Hunkins?
re51: I gather news relating to the Kim story, search and otherwize. I want a complete picture of what happened. Even if it’s just my own curiosity, I have a right to do that. Joe can delete all the posts he wants of course, but I have a right to go where I need to go to gather the information, and it certainly includes a lot more places than just here. I keep my visits here to an absolute minimum required.
Unfortunately for me, I still need to keep track of news here. Believe me, I wish that were not so. Paul, you suggest that I just go to my “sand box” and stay there. That is ridiculous, I’m more open minded and curious than that. Your conjectures about my behavior show that you are in fact visiting our site yourself, and that you yourself are very interesting in keeping this an adversarial relationship with your comments. How I wish I didn’t have the opportunity to have to read your adversarial comments, Paul.
54 There is no underlying sinister story or attempt by Kati to misrepresent facts except in the misguided and persistent imaginations of Charles & Dee.
You know I stated I was not going to post here and I haven’t. Yet something keeps bringing me back to see what you all are talking about. I am befuddled that you all are STILL debating it. MOVE ON!!! Can’t you just accept that someone lost their life trying to save his families life? A wonderful woman is alive with two beautiful children to live on in the legacy of their father. It is NOT healthy for you all to be dwelling on this story, for heaven’s sake you weren’t there; you will never know what it was like!!! You can sit back and back seat quarterback the story all you want, however I didn’t see you there, you weren’t there give it up! You have spoken about EVERY aspect of this search; I truly believe you have left no stone un-turned. You have now turned this into a pissing match of who’s your friend and what sandbox you are playing in. The site is WONDERFUL it was a great place to be able to be, it has attracted more attention then you will EVER know, BUT GIVE IT UP! The search is OVER! You all need to move on, you are dwelling on things you can’t fix, what happened to the great thought processes of gathering what could be better, gathering contacts to send your ideas to HELP…..Have you lost your focus here????
Wow, RRR78. I mostly agree with you. However, I have not been considered a part of this “group” for quite some time. I was in all practicality booted out and ignored, because of who I associated with and saying some negative things about this blog thread core group. And I know by addressing you, I’m opening myself up to quite some lambasting. Personally, I harbor no negative feelings toward you or any SAR personnel. I admire you all. As I said, for my own reasons, I collect info on Kim story. That is NOT all I do in my life. I have a life, I enjoy my family, and I golf (especially when weather is decent), and I have to earn a living and I’ll keep my jobs to myself. I believe it is important to track the Kim story because of future impacts from policital meddling by Spencer Kim and others. I think they may try to close off Oregon public lands and enforce rules and laws on us that cost Oregon a lot of money, and threaten our land use beliefs. And naturally I don’t think the Feds will be giving us a penny to comply with their regulations and demands. For me, it is beyond what you have described, whether you want to believe it or not. I would not post here either, except to defend myself when I feel it’s important. I have another website beyond the KimTragedy site, it’s the OregonSAR site where I’m trying to attract and encourage support for SAR, it’s starting to get a bit of attention. I’m proud of it, it is what I can do at this point for SAR, I think the volunteer teams deserve support. Now everyone can pile on me like usual.
58/Dee & 57/RRR: I am not going to “pile on you”, I commend your SAR site as a worthy efforts to try to help. I am a bit taken aback by RRR’s post in that, if she has been following, she would know that the traffic here at JD has dropped significantly from what it was to a snails pace and that the vast majority of “the regulars” have, indeed, moved on.
As to visiting your site, yes, I have, but very infrequently. I have never posted there. Ostensibly you built the site to engage like-minded individuals in debate and discussion and to put forth your perspective on events. Why, then, is Snarls forever here baiting people with what we know all too clearly are your perpectives ?? Then, if people have the audacity to make a comment he takes exception to, he threatens to sue them ??
I think the fact that individuals like John Rachor, Kati’s dad, Det. Mike, Sara R, John James, Eric F, Brian A., etc., feel comfortable enough to post here speaks volumes for the quality and caliber of Joe’s site. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot make the same claim. I would offer that Snarl’s persistent posts are nothing more then Joe Duck envy.
I can only speak for myself, Paul. There is no envy toward this blog comments thread. There is no competition. The goals and structure of our site are completely different. I would offer that the “comfort” you’ve mentioned is caused by a very controlled environment, and that’s Joe’s right. We cannot afford that kind of comfort. Thanks for your acknowledgements, I appreciate it. I simply don’t see the reason for this to be adversarial, but I understand that is rather complex at the moment.
“Joe Duck Envy” I like it! 🙂
All I can say is: (a) please don’t feed the trolls (b) this is a blog with many other interesting entries (c) I am glad I stuck to playwriting and never took Journalism 101, much less Ambush Journalism -100…
Kati’s Dad, my sympathies to you and your family. It is hard to loose the good ones young.
Joe Duck,
Thanks for trying to get some info out of the gas station in Merlin. I haven’t checked the timeline specifically but if the person who gave them directions would have stepped forward during the search it may have made a huge difference. I guess they may have not realized that a family was missing. My question is how many 30 something aged Asian guys with a Saab come through there asking for directions to Gold Beach? On the other hand the attendant could have left town or doesn’t follow the news closely. Whoever it is probably knows by now and may feel to afraid or guilty to come forward, that is understandable. I have a hard time believing management doesn’t know who would’ve been on shift at that time. What do you all think, is it better left alone?
The following is a speculation about what might have happened. We are not presenting it as a definitive or factual account.
On Nov. 25th, the Kims get up relatively early in Portland. They have brunch with their friend at 10 a.m. or so. The Jan. 18 Sheriff’s Association report mentioned brunch at 10 a.m. in the timeline, and “morning” on page 6 of the timeline. Moreover, in our experience, kids don’t sleep in. They’re usually up bright and early, especially the four-year-old.
Scott Nelson Windels posted that the Kims finished brunch at 2 p.m., but we doubt small children would sit still for four hours. We figure that brunch ends at 11:30 or so, and that the Kims stop at Wilsonville between noon and 12:30. This would match the recollection of the employee who gave them the highway map and coastal brochure, and of the second employee who recognized the Kims but did not speak with them. It would also match the one employee’s recollection of a discussion of “scenic routes” with Mr. Kim; it would have been light out and therefore a discussion of scenic routes would have made sense at that time of day.
Like others of its type, the Wilsonville information center is stocked with dozens of brochures. We speculate that, as James Kim talks with the one employee, Kati and the kids wander around the racks. She picks up other flyers, including one or more advertising the wineries in the North Willamette Valley. James is on record being a wine lover, and Oregon is known for its pinot noir production in particular.
We speculate that the Kims look at the brochures either out in their car or just before they leave the tourist center, and that when Mr. Kim spots the winery brochure he wants to visit one. But Kati, having spent four years in Oregon as a student, says, “James, we really don’t have the time.” James Kim wins that argument, and they go off in search of wineries. Along the way, Mr. Kim uses a cellphone make a reservation at TuTuTun. The wineries of the North Willamette Valley are located between Wilsonville and Halsey, about 20 miles west of Interstate 5.
The Kims spend more time at the wineries than either of them had intended to, but especially more time than Kati had intended. It’s dusk by the time they got back on I-5 heading south, and it’s dark as they refuel in Halsey at 6 p.m. They haven’t even made it as far as Eugene; they’re a good five hours or more from Gold Beach, not including stops. Kati’s not happy when she calls the TuTuTun Lodge to tell them to leave a key by their door. “We’ll be lucky to be there by 1 a.m.,” we can imagine her saying.
James replies, “Not to worry. Did you see that road from Grant’s Pass? It goes straight there.” They decide to take the route without studying the map; all they notice is the black line depicting the route, not lingering long enough to read the winter driving warning. We speculate that James Kim doesn’t worry about the caution from the employee against using the back roads, taking it to be an obligatory warning that doesn’t have to be taken too seriously. “I’ve been on the back roads from Eugene to Florence,” Kati might have said. “This will be no different.”
They have dinner in Roseburg, and when they get back onto I-5 at about 9:30 they ignore the turnoff to Hwy. 42. According to locals, the turnoff is well-marked and, if missed, can easily be reached by a short backtrack. Once they get to the wilderness route, Kati sees that it’s much more rugged and remote than the Eugene-Florence route she’d been imagining. “Damn it, James, we can’t do this,” she says, as snow falls hard along their route. “Let’s just turn around and stop for the night along I-5. ”
“The hell we will,” James Kim replies. “We’ve prepaid $250 for the room. Not only that, but we’ve got to drive to Mendocino tomorrow and that one’s a real pain. 101 and Hwy. 1 twist and turn like crazy, and you go 15 miles an hour along a lot of it. Let’s just do this and get there.”
As they pass the fourth sign located just past the logging road intersection, Mr. Kim says, “You’re right, this is bad. I better turn around.” At that point, having noticed how narrow the road was on the way up, Kati Kim replies, “If you turn around we could go over the edge. You’re going to have to back down.”
Mr. Kim slowly backs down the road until they reach the intersection with the logging road. Along the way, he has to open his car door to see through the swirling snow. At the intersection it’s snowing hard, and they’re both feeling a bit panicky. Now Kati Kim steps in. “This is a fine mess you’ve gotten us into,” she says to her husband. “Look, that other road goes lower. We can at least get out of the snow, and maybe we can find our way to Gold Beach.”
James Kim takes the road, figuring they can get to the coast. In fact, they barely even get through all the snowdrifts. After another 20 miles they’re hopelessly lost. They’re exhausted, too, so they decide to call it a night and get some sleep. They get up the next day in the rain. Kati Kim recalls seeing a snowplow on their way up Bear Camp Road. The Kims get out of the car and think they hear a plow in the distance (later, they realize it was rushing water). “If it’s raining down here, it’s snowing like hell up there,” we imagine James Kim saying. “So we’d better wait until the plows get down here and they lead us out.”
That never happens. By the time they’ve spent a few more days in the car, Mrs. Kim is angry at her husband for getting them into this situation, possibly including the detour to the wineries. We imagine a car full of hungry, rattled and fearful occupants. The kids are crying, the wife is yelling. So James Kim goes off in search of help, and winds up dying.
When the survivors are rescued and the police question Kati Kim about the ordeal, we speculate that she omits the Wilsonville stop and the winery detour because of how it would look. After all, they were warned against using the back roads. Being so late on account of visiting wineries might make everyone think we were a pair of irresponsible yuppies, Mrs. Kim thinks. We imagine her telling the police that they left Portland late; that they missed Hwy. 42; that they sort of blundered into all of this.
Much of that story would have been true. The Kims did blunder into it, and they were late. But, if our speculation is accurate, it wouldn’t be whole story. The Kims did nothing felonious or immoral, but they were negligent. Such things happen, but the kicker is that there were kids in the car with them and that makes it less excusable. Which might be why Kati Kim doesn’t want to talk about the whole story.
Once again, we need to be clear that we are speculating. There could be other explanations as to why the Kims left Portland late. Scott Nelson Windels, their friend, wrote that it was because they didn’t end brunch until 2 p.m. and then went to boutiques. A poster on an Internet website speculated that the Wilsonville sighting was of a different couple consisting of a white woman, an Asian man and two young children. The employee who identified them as the Kims did so because “all Asians look alike,” the poster speculated.
To us, that’s a stretch. We believe the Kims stopped in Wilsonville. They might have done so later than we think and/or stopped not at wineries but somewhere else — perhaps to see a different friend, or to do some Christmas shopping at an outlet mall along the highway. But if it were a friend or a mall, why conceal it? That’s one of the reasons we’re speculating about wineries. But in the final analysis, it’s impossible to know. Kati Kim knows what happened, and we suspect some of her friends know what happened. But we’re not sure anyone else will ever know.
Why haven’t the police pursued the answers to these questions? Two reasons. First, no crime was committed. Second, Mrs. Kim is an attractive young woman, recently widowed with children, the subject of a torrent of sympathetic media coverage. If the police pursued the contradictions, it might look “cruel.” So, from their point of view, it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie.
What should the Kims have done? What was their biggest error?
Regardless of whether our speculation about wineries or other stops is accurate, we’d say the die was cast at 6 p.m. on Nov. 25 in Halsey, when the Kims reconfirmed their hotel reservation in Gold Beach. They should have called the hotel — to cancel. Then they should have taken I-5 to Grant’s Pass, and U.S. 199 to Crescent City, California. They’d have been in Crescent City by midnight. They’d have been late, but with a head start on the next day’s drive to Mendocino.
Why didn’t they cancel? Two possibilities. One might be that they both really wanted to see the Oregon coast in the morning. More likely is that TuTuTun, like many luxury resorts, has a two-week cancellation policy. The bottom line may well be that, on the night of Nov. 25, 2006, James and Kati Kim were penny-wise and pound foolish, losing one life and putting three others at grave risk.
By the way, absent any other news this really should be the last of it from me. The speculation + the comments about the evident rift between Kati Kim and her father-in-law were the final loose ends. I plan to move on now.
This has gotten a little strange.
48- Maggie, Thank you for your kind words, it makes me feel a little more comfortable amongst a close knit crowd of people who (for the most part) want to make things better in the future.
57- RRR78- I agree with you to a point and it surely does seem like people on here are still hashing out points that were debated over and over again long ago. There are many things we don’t know and some we never will and it wouldn’t matter if we did. I still think there are questions we could answer without malicious finger pointing. I do realize there are few as close to this as you and I thank you for your service, information, and concern about this. You, Sara R., or anyone else personally involved didn’t have to share your experiences on Joe’s blog and I am thankful to you for that.
you know whats cool? Maggie, paul, jocosar, RRR, katis Dad, joy, I know youre lurking glenn, and of course Joe, are all still here checking in and reading. I am glad to see that. I am interested in finding out where the progress is on an “internet resource” group for SAR. Whats up with that? where has that headed?
by the way, side comment on being lost: my mom and I were a bit “lost” on a road trip Monday. My father called to check on us and he said, “everyone knows that when you think youre lost you really just havent gone far enough…. dont turn around, youre probably almost there.”
That struck me as a common mentality and probably, in the some cases, a dangerous thought.
Its probably mostly true however.
And having confidence in going forward is better than constant indecision as to whether one should turn around or not. Even if that confidence is misplaced.
Why do you want only part of the story to be told, Mr. Hunkins?
Charles, I can only give you a single clue of two words, and after that I can speak of this no more:
R-O-S-W-E-L-L 1947
😎 😯
We’ve never argued that the Kims were done in by aliens. I’ve always figured that was more likely from someone else here, Joe. I mean, if the Kims didn’t do anything wrong and the SAR people didn’t do anything wrong but someone still died, who else does it leave but aliens?
I don’t know about aliens but geomagnetic activity may have played a role. Nancy mentioned that in her #9:929. Here is an excerpt:
“…In addition to the terrestrial weather problems of late November, the sun became active. The sun is at the minimum period of it’s eleven year cycle, but activity increased at the end of November. NOAA’s Space Environment Laboratory website shows geomagnetic storming for much of the period
of November 30th-December 1st. …Micheal Persinger has published many articles regarding the effects of geomag on human behavior…”
I Beg of You All:
Do. Not. Feed. @(#*&(*!&!!! Trolls.
Tommo I’ve known you too long. I can actually *hear* you saying that in my head dude!
Can’t we just have HappyNet back?
http://www.kibo.com/kibopost/happynet_94.html
“Bozos abound.” Plus ca change…
Speaking of the internet, something funny is going on. Suddenly, people are in an unexplained silly mood, everywhere! If only it could last……
I know the convo is coming to a close, but I thought you guys might be interested in this perspective on Spencer Kim (which I don’t think has been posted here, pardon me if it is duplicative!)
http://news.asianweek.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=ec3fec29b45acac5e87bbfe310186503&this_category_id=172
“Survival, in real life, has very little to do with luck…” the website says,, where I just took this “fun and games” survival test: http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/quizes/lost/lost.html . I didn’t do very well. I was admonished: “you’d get lost on the back nine of a golf course”! 😦
After lurking here for the past 2 months, it seems this blog is winding down, so I thought I would go ahead & leave a comment.
It is just amazing that in this story, literally EVERY major player directly involved has posted on this blog. One thing that reading 10,000 or so posts has reiterated to me is that we are all human. We make mistakes. We feel badly about it. Often we try to justify actions and decisions that, in hindsight, were not the best.
The Kims made decisions which were not the best. Those bad decisions should not have cost James’ life, but reality can sometimes be especially cruel.
Humans can also be cruel and judgmental. Reading the vitriolic criticism in posts by Pac & Charles makes me glad that my fate will never be in their hands. They did have some decent points, but the enthusiasm of their animosity suggests to me that they need to take up jogging or something to ease the depth of their negative emotions.
Humans can also be incredibly giving and strong. John Rachor saved 3 lives. Kati & the girls would almost certainly be dead if not for his continued efforts. For every time a John Rachor finds someone, there were dozens or even hundreds of times when valiant efforts were made with little fanfare and to no avail. If I am ever in Southeast Oregon, I will eat at Burger King.
Finally, I am humbled by the posts left by Kati’s Dad. His intelligence and love for his family come through clearly. As was noted before, his classiness is an example for us all. Kati is lucky to have him for a father.
Thanks to JoeDuck for hosting this, and to all the key people and contributors. Whatever else you think of Sara R., if she hadn’t started posting here, it’s likely most of the others would not have joined. Regardless of any procedural changes or SAR improvements which may or may not originate from this blog, it has undoubtedly been therapeutic for those directly involved to have a place to share thoughts and feelings about what happened. And it has given thousands of us with no direct involvement a way to touch the emotions of the situation; Lord, forgive us our voyeurism.
And if Kati Kim herself should happen to check out this blog, know that many warm thoughts and prayers have been sent your way the last two months. Your time with James was tragically cut short, but your yelp reviews reveal a very loving relationship, the kind about which we all dream. I hope your healing continues and that life someday becomes manageable again.
So well put William C. We are, for better or worse, all humans.
52/ paulj…there were strong weather warnings that week-end. I heard Mike Donahue, from KOIN-TV (channel 6 in Portland), mention at least on a couple of newscasts that anyone traveling in western Oregon should try to do so on
Saturday rather than Sunday. The concern in his voice was unusual, I thought, which is why I remember that forecast.
I hope that it may one day be possible to get weather warnings while driving I-5, such as those available on the coast, over a car radio.
72/ Kip…Not sure I understand your linking my message with anything regarding aliens, unless you’re referring
to Micheal Persinger’s work regarding TST and UFO sightings.
Is that correct? If so…have you read Dr. Persinger’s TST
work? Or his work regarding sensed presence? I find his
work one of the most reasonable explanations I have ever read for these kind of experiences. I realize his work is very controversial.
Best thoughts to all,
Nancy
Nancy, I’m sorry if what I said [72] inferred anything other than the appreciation I have for your 9-929 comment. I was referring only to what you had to say about the effects of sun spots and geomagnetic activity possibly influencing human behavior.
I check http://www.n3kl.org/sun/images/kpstatus.gif periodically for the status of current geomagnetic activity. Sometimes gives me a heads up of unusual stock / financial markets activity. I trade these markets, any edge can help. Interestingly (to me at least!) the bond market topped on Dec 1. Also was a crisis peak for the Kims. Coincidentally(?) the geomagnetic reading for that day was “storm”..
Well I’ll stop by to say that I still lurk here on occasion. My internet service was down for a few days. When I come back I find John Rachor was here! Joe Duck this is a great site!
With all due respect, William C., I am not the one whose judgment you’d need to fear. I have never gotten someone killed through my negligence. That honor goes to James and Kati Kim, Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton. Cruel? The truth has a way of being cruel. Judgmental? Doctor William, heal thyself.
84/Snarls: Would that we could all be as perfect as you Snarls. 🙄
(84) Volleyball you can’t afford the respect that would be due William C. or anybody else that is posting here.
Your perspective is truly vile and beyond words.
We heard about your elixir and nobody is buying it. Take your sideshow somewhere else. The story has been told and no matter how hard you try to mold into something that you want it just isn’t going to fly.
As they say in these parts…that dog just won’t hunt.
82/ Thank you Kip. I was so nervous when I made the post
about geomag and Dr. Persinger’s work. Your comments mean a lot to me.
I’ll be away all day, but wanted to mention Edward Dewey’s work on cycles. Ray Tomes has a Yahoo group and website
devoted to cycles…including financial cycles.
Thank you again for taking the time to respond.
Warmest thoughts,
Nancy
Tara wrote: I am interested in finding out where the progress is on an “internet resource” group for SAR. What’s up with that? where has that headed?
Tara! You want something *useful* to come out of all this commentary? Good idea!
Glenn’s been working on a database application that’ll assist SAR with info processing, and I’ve been procrastinating on setting up the DangerData.com blog with a bunch of cases.
Part of the challenge for me is all that I have learned through several missing person cases I ran on this blog – David Boone in California, Stanford Missing Student, Missing guy on Rogue River. The Kim case was *extremely* unique in that the word was out very fast and widely, and the interest level was global. Even in that case it was not clear that online information was ultimately of much if any help in finding them, and the media frenzy probably got in the way of the SAR effort.
The huge interest and potential info helpers will not be the case with other missing people so I’m not even clear blog participants, as initial “outsiders”, will be able to gather enough info quickly enough to be able to help.
But – I’m not giving up on the concept yet and like any project you need to experiment a lot, follow success, and zap errors. That can take a long time.
I will try harder to get that blog going and see what evolves, and I think Glenn is cooking up an application that will be of more direct help to SAR.
(88) Joe, Tara,
Tara I missed your post. Thanks for the summary Joe.
Currently I have invested in some dedicated hardware and software licenses to get a testing area established. The first work effort will be a survey that is sent any of the people interested in providing input.
I am sure the results of the first survey will lead to additional surveys and discussions. The collection of this information is going to need to be structured so that it can be actionable.
We will rely heavily on opinion and input from SAR members and of course Sara R. and RRR will be providing input and I am assuming they will enlist others to provide input.
Once we take all of that information I will adjust the initial database design (it is like shooting in the dark!) that I have created and expand it to handle the relationships of data that we will want to bring together to provide a “dashboard” type capability for SAR.
Included in that dashboard will be volunteer lists, ability to request volunteer assistance, data crunching, etc…
We will initially focus on providing an interface for SAR and registered volunteers to work together in-line with Internet based resources.
Another angle of the SAR assistance site will be to have a “directory” of readily available experts that SAR can tap into quickly to get questions answered, etc.
Lastly, a section for the affected families will be there to correspond with SAR members and other volunteers – don’t worry certain elements will not be allowed to harass the family.
The primary goals include:
Establish network of experts that SAR can reliably contact and interact with.
Provide “job jar” to identify SAR or family requests that can be distributed through the Internet to registered volunteers.
Create searchable thread of conversations to allow LE and SAR to research and review to help in future searches.
Create repository of key SAR related data points that can be used in future searches (history repeats itself).
Long-term potential is a repository to allow SAR searchers, volunteers a place to fill out their daily diary of events that can be quickly assembled into a hierarchy to highlight key data points that could be overlooked in the volume of information. This could also lead to a consistent format of reporting diary items into an overall specific search volume compiled of all the data points and diary entries.
The goal of the SAR assist site is not to replace Blogs. Open conversation should continue in Blog form, if anything it helps people deal with the situation and hopefully move on afterward.
Another project is an addition to the Danger database that will allow people to produce a Google Map of their planned route with all the “memorial” and danger points pinned to the map with interactive summary and details regarding potential danger.
(88) Joe another point on the short nature of the searches. I think it would be useful to have a repository that could arrange all of the search diaries (even the short searches) so that when a SAR effort is intiated a complete dossie of the area in regard to past SAR efforts, or like cases can be quickly assembled in report form with key priorities listed along with what were the critical data points in past efforts. (i.e. cellphone towers, tide charts, river level, etc).
glenn, it would seem that you pass a harsh judgment on the judgmental. Yourself excepted, naturally.
Glenn thanks for expanding on things – I like these concepts a lot!
(91) Hey Chucky, actually I am toughest on myself. Yes I was very judgmental in the beginning about this – but after I was enlightened, got the facts and I changed my position. I was wrong on my initial assumptions about SAR. I have been corrected and quite happy that I received an education in the process. Blog are meant to be about growing and expanding ones’ knowledge of the subject matter and an individual’s participation is the way that person can package up the information so they specifically learn from it.
Also Joe’s blog has introduced me to many amazing people and I will be forever grateful for that. That is the whole point isn’t it? Get a bunch of people together to discuss their opinions and find a place where most can meet and all learn something from it…other just want this to be a bully pulpit.
Yourself and the others cut from your cloth are called detractors – you want to deflect the discussion from its purpose and focus it on your agenda – ultimately they are all vetted out and people for most part will ignore your propaganda some occasionally will get sucked into your “relevant” points but we all know they are only a plant to trick people into talking to you. That is where your approach ultimately fails because people eventually see through your veiled posts.
There are a lot of people here really trying to make something good out of this horrible situation and it is a shame that you continue to beat your dead horse – just go bury it and move on.
glenn, you and others are upset that we’ve held James and Kati Kim primarily responsible for James Kim’s death, named Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton as contributing to it and stated that we do not believe Kati Kim’s account of the events. You and many others here believe it is cruel to tell the truth; we think it’s cruel not to.
Your objections have nothing to do with any lack of positive recommendations on our part. How can they, when our website is the only one to publish a list of specific positive recommendations aimed at reducing the likelihood of a similar tragedy?
(94) Charles see post (57) Dr. Flemming said it best and I think across the board here he has just a tad more credibility than you do on this subject. Tad is probably the biggest understatement of the year.
Please refer back to your post (65) – is this just another example of your misleading posts?
Now…poof, be gone!
James Gray, a pioneer of computing, is missing off California (or possibly even Oregon) coast:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2007/01/31/jim-gray-computing-pioneer-missing-at-sea-off-california-coast/
I’ve written Scott who had some Google contacts. Tom was wondering if we might use high rez satellite imagery, combined with some course projections, to find the boat at sea.
glenn, I really don’t have any new comments to make. But I will at least attempt to defend myself when personally attacked by those who object to the making of judgments that they disagree with. It’s a little judgmental, wouldn’t you say?
(97) Charles the bottom line is I just find you truly boring. That’s all, you’re just boring.
98/Glenn – Careful, he might sue you for telling the truth. 😛
I wonder if there aren’t already various SAR information repositories. For example, how many SAR volunteers does Sara coordinate already? She must have on file records for many years of SAR missions. The volunteers have to go through various forms of training and certification.
One of the teams involved in the Windy Ck search was Eugene Mountain Rescue. Besides their Lane County links, they are a part of the Mountain Rescue Association. I count 7 groups on the Lane Co Sheriff’s SAR page. Just a quick web browse shows that there already is a lot of SAR networking going on.
There is even a SAR textbook, Fundamentals of Search and Rescue published by NASAR.
http://www.nasar.org/garmin/product_info.php?products_id=307&osCsid=02fec03ca544b1e45a4ed7e3452bfeb9
A glance at the contents of this book shows me that there is a lot more to SAR than I ever imagined.
paulj
glenn, it’s better to be boring than negligent, dishonest or hypocritical.
Things which need ‘fixed’ – corrections, improved upon etc. DON’T get fixed when after the initial attention wears off people just forget, give it up and move on.
Also, those who state that people should just give it up and move on are usually those who can stand the least scrunity.
I have yet to see a response to my question of what has changed other than a few afore mentioned vests?
Frances, your [102] comment brought to mind a biggy… if the attitudes of offending officials remain unchanged can we not sometime expect a repeat of a similar situation whereby an informed, knowledgeable private citizen volunteering critical information is summarily repelled as a nuisance?
103. Kip, Percisely you entire statment but emphasis upon “if the attitudes of offending officals remain unchanged can we no sometime expect a repeat of a similar situtation”
Frances and Kip, “the attitudes of offending officials” had absolutely nothing to do with the Kim tragedy. James Kim died as the result of simple negligence, primarily on his own and his wife’s part.
The best way to reduce that is to educate travelers about the need to plan their trips, pay attention to warnings and not to place too much reliance on technology. That’s what our site long ago suggested.
The negligence of Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton also contributed to the death. I’m not sure what can be done to prevent a reoccurence. To me, it was a classic one-off mistake on their part. By contrast, the Kims’ negligence consisted of a number of failure points, any of which might have been accessed by a public education effort.
This is a prime example of why it is necessary to correctly assign responsibility (a/k/a “blame”) when things like this happen. It’s not cruel to do so; rather, if you actually want to take lessons and apply them in hopes of preventing a repetition of the events, you must accurately understand the original events and their causes.
It is the lack of understanding, and indeed the hostility toward understanding, displayed on this site that I find very odd. You are all educated people, but for some reason you regard the truth as taboo in this case. I suggest that, as part of your process of examination, you examine why you don’t want to face the truth in the Kim case.
Charles Wilson:
By the way, absent any other news this really should be the last of it from me.
Dude, how many times now have you written that you’ve written your last comment here?
Charles:
… examine why you don’t want to face the truth in the Kim case.
I thought I explained this clearly to you earlier:
😯 R-O-S-W-E-L-L 1947 😯
Snarls/105: You are exceedingly tiresome & redundant. Very few here have alledged that the Kim’s did not share some culpability for their fate. I have stated this before, but you keep ignoring that fact.
No less a figure than Kati’s dad said in post 880/p9 that he agreed with the last line of the Snarls post 867, which read: “The Kims bear the primary responsibility for the fate that befell James Kim and the near death of the other members of the family.”
The issue for many of the posters here is we don’t believe, as you do Snarl’s, that their mistake occurred in a vacuum or without extenuating circumstances. The Kim’s were far from the 1st people to misunderstand the dangers of that road. Mapper, who is a map EXPERT (which you – Snarls – are not) has pointed out the numerous problems with the ODOT map. The glaring deficiencies of the signage on the road have been expounded on repeatedly and in-depth. No less than John James attested to the numerous parties he has run into near his lodge who made similar navigational mistakes. You want to pin 200% of the blame on the Kim’s, whereas most here feel otherwise, that it is hardly that clear cut.
What is most comical is you insist on repeating the same message over and over and over again regardless of what or how anyone here responds. Even when people agree with you you are argumentative. You keep saying you are leaving, but you never do. You built a huge site to discuss YOUR views, but you post here as much or more as you do there.
Fine, keep beating your stubborn, hollow head into a brick wall and I’ll just lurk and laugh at your inane folly! You’ve succeeded only in reinforcing peoples determination to never become as narrow-minded and unempathetic as you clearly are.
102/Frances: Unless I am mistaken quite a bit is in the process of being changed. Signage issues are being worked on per earlier comments from several posters, with additional & clearer signs scheduled to go up this Spring.
The Governor appointed the 15 members to his task force yesterday:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1170309422288490.xml&coll=7
I think it is safe to assume they will have several specific recommendations for the legislature to consider and implement.
Changes after an event like this take time, that is the nature of government, but they are definitely in the works.
But Paul/107, the signs on the road were not an issue for the Kims. They knew where they were going, and they departed from the map route on purpose.
Mapper’s comments were perhaps academically useful, but she didn’t place them in the context of highway maps in general. In other words, how are other official state maps better or worse than Oregon’s? Maybe all highway maps fail to meet her standards? As I read the ODOT map, it was clear that the Kims’ route was in the lowest category of paved road. It bore a specific warning, and the map showed a 5,000 foot peak right next to the road. Additionally, once the Kims were on that road it wasn’t up to the map to tell them it was dangerous.
As for repetition of a message, I plead guilty. Others should too. There are nearly 10,000 comments here. Surely you aren’t arguing that I am the only one making the same tired points. Right, Paul?
While there are strong feelings here and there for the most part is because people care about various issues, but I don’t believe there are truly any hard feelings.
RE: Helping with Bear Camp sign improvements: I hadn’t heard back from BLM email and just phoned Jim Roper to ask about helping with the new signage and also where people can send a donation of money.
(107) Paul the reason Volleyball keeps doing this is he is marketing his solution! It should be obvious to everyone here – he is in this to make money – somehow, somewhere.
He has invented a new form of SPAM but on a blog!!!
I see CW thinks that signage wasn’t an issue for the Kims, but perhaps he could think outside the box a bit and consider the many people who took the wrong turn and were redirected to the correct route by John James and his family. And understand that clear signage on both roads at the fork may have indeed caused the Kims to turn completely around rather than go that way.
Any of the persons redirected by the James family could have ended up in the same dire situation as the Kims, and there were also others found by SAR in earlier incidents.
And now it appears that CW himself is lost, here on Joe Duck’s blog. He keeps saying he’s leaving, but keeps turning up repeatedly.
(113) Madeleine…your last line – now that was funny! LOL
I know that we will incur the wrath of Tommo for feeding the critters, but sometimes it’s hard to resist; they blather on and on, making the same inane accusations.
What I want to know is why nobody wants to discuss this ROSWELL incident?!??!! It is obvious to my swollen cranium that this is DIRECTLY related to so many of these recent, “tragic” incidents! And yet everyone does their best to shift attention away from 1947 to volleyballs. VOLLEYBALLS! Volleyballs have nothing to do with anything except playing volleyball, and some silly movie…
Okay. Maybe I have had too much Dew.
And what I really want to know is: how does a 40-foot sailboat disappear without a trace?
Maybe I have had too much Dew
Only theoretically possible, dew-d! Cheers!
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/the-ultimate-stoner-gadget-handson-the-volcano-herb-vaporizer-232962.php
Finally something that will help everyone understand Volleyball! I knew it had to exist we just had to find it.
116. – LOL, dew-d
And what I really want to know is: how does a 40-foot sailboat disappear without a trace?
Time warp?
116 & 119/Tharwood & Gayle: Obviously the C&C 40 was beamed aboard by our friends from Roswell. They were having some onboard trouble with their computers and needed an expert. He will be returned shortly with absolutely no memory of what happened to him.
121 – Ah, the good old unexplained lapse of time. That explains everything.
121- see I had one right there… I meant 120
121: His boat will reappear off Gold Beach. He will claim that is where he was headed all along & that solar flares interfered with his efforts to call home. He will have memories of having made the voyage, but when pressed for details will suddenly become vague and evasive.
[audio src="http://www.moviesoundclips.net/tv1/xfiles/xfilestheme.wav" /]
😛
(122) Gayle I see you just committed a 2-11 in regard to the 121 which was really a 120. 10-4 on that! Ultimately it could have ended up as a 404 and we would need another Gov’t coverup!
124 – ya got me, Glenn, lol.
Ah, would that it were true that our friend on the C&C 40 would return with nothing more than some ad-hoc alien tech support stories he can’t remember.
Meanwhile, I see the rest of you are determined to cover the whole thing up. I, however, am much too clever to be fooled by common sense.
“My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my story. Prepare to interview!”
112 Yes, I wonder the same. It appears to me that Charles is likely driven by a quest for cash and/or perhaps project recognition. I see his work as a rather pathetic and basically futile effort. Pac is just pathologically mean.
I think that the Kim’s innocent mistakes should be judged in the context of the roughly 2,600 people who will be killed and 330,000 will be injured in cell phone related car accidents this year. I submit that anyone guilty of talking on a cell phone while driving has no business throwing stones.
Frances asked:
“I have yet to see a response to my question of what has changed other than a few afore mentioned vests?”
Have you read the “After Action Review” document from Josephine County that is included in the Sheriffs Report?
That lists things that worked, things that needed improvement, and list of next steps. A task force was supposed to meet in January 2007.
The task force members represent all these south Oregon counties (Coos, Curry, Josephine, Douglas, Jackson, Klamath) and other regional agencies.
Changes specific to Josephine Co. would be the responsibility of the new sheriff, the SAR Coordinator, local SAR organizations, etc. It has already been mentioned that the new sheriff is active in SAR.
I would guess that the Governor’s task force will focus on state wide issues, not changes in a specific county.
The Sheriffs report also mentions that a SAR Review Committee met Jan 9-11. It lists issues that they identified. They even have recommendations for what the Governor’s Task Force should address.
paulj
(127) Dr. Flemming I really like you! 🙂
Amen to the cellphone comment…I am involved in that industry and a firm supporter of people removing them from the driving scene. Very dangerous indeed.
Preamble: I used to walk daily a 3 mile beautiful CA beach mainly for exercise. Was a state park but very few public frequented it, especially off season. But every day I’d encounter a damnable patrol 4X4, sometimes 2 or 3 times. Never ever saw one these usually overweight slobs get out of their vehicle. Their main purpose it seemed was to blight that special environment with their intimidating presence spoiling the wild solitude for us harmless few who reveled it.
Re: JoCo changes – If I were JoCo chief honcho, I’d immediately fire the ‘in charge’ guy who encountered John James Dec 1. Maybe that be a wake up call for other slacker officials to respond attentively and respectfully to the public… their employer, in fact.
I just picked up a used copy of “Back Roads of Oregon” by Earl Thollander. This 1979 book outlines 200 backroad drives, with hand lettered text, maps, and sketches. I’ve had the companion Washington volume for several years.
The second route in the book is the one we all hold dear, which Earl calls Siskiyou Forest Road, Gold Beach to Galice. At the time of this book, the part east of Agness was gravel, and marked as Road 3400 – an earlier FS designation. His sketches include bear grass, and a expansive view from Panther Ridge.
The way Earl travels and writes, it hardly sounds deadly 🙂 But he does mention stopping at the ranger station for a map and advice on road conditions.
For those familiar with the area, further segments take him to Wolf Creek, Pleasant Valley, Jacksonville, McKee Bridge on the Applegate, and Murphy.
paulj
as a lay tourist I traveled the bearcamp route once west to east several years ago. i don’t remember it seeming at all hazardous / treacherous but then it was not winter time. i do remember quite vividly the steep climb up the mountain out of Agnes but even that section was certainly easily driveable.
any road traversing mountainous areas in winter can be treacherous. back road or interstate.
The Kims’ biggest mistake as I see it was failing to top up at Merlin. Had they started out from there that night with a full gas tank I’d wager James would be with us today.
Kati’s Dad, your daughter told a story about the events of Nov. 25 that directly contradicts what two witnesses said, including one who was interviewed by the Oregon State Police and by Det. Mike Weinstein, of the Portland Police.
Why doesn’t your daughter just give an interview to a knowledgeable reporter who will ask her to clear up the contradictions? She has already called several media outlets to inform them that she did not eat berries plucked from bear scat, so it’s not as if she has a fear of the media.
Another Oregon SAR mission – this time for an injured climber on Mt Hood. The climbers were well equipped, with emergency beacon, GPS, and cell.
Agencies mentioned in the OregonLive article include Clackamas Co Sheriffs Office, American Medical Response, Portand Mountain Rescue, and Oregon Nat Guard.
paulj
Also there is a missing woman case in Beaverton. 38 possible sightings, but none have panned out.
paulj
(133) Chucky…really let me pour you one of these!
For folks that are in the Bay Area, there will be a public memorial for James on February 17th in San Francisco. We aren’t ready to post more detailed information yet, but I wanted to let folks here who might want to attend know, so they could mark their calendar or make plans. We are planning to have a special seating area for anyone who was involved in the SAR effort – so please drop me a line at search_at_jamesandkati.com if you’re going to be coming down from Oregon. This will be a celebration of James life, so don’t expect to be sitting the whole time. =)
My friend and fellow pilot John Rachor told me of this site yesterday as we were discussing the next meeting of all local helicopter pilots (Southern Oregon) as a way to loosely coordinate efforts between commercial, business, and private pilot support and training. I find the comments of individuals posting here both interesting and yet somewhat troubling. As the lead volunteer helicopter pilot for Jackson County Search and Rescue these past four plus years it amazes me what stories get attention like the Kim story and the far larger majority of stories that don’t even get mentioned. I guess that is how the subjective nature of “news” works. In the case of the Kim family the outcome would have been exactly the same with or without the media attention, the discovery of the cell phone ping, or any other outside involvement. The fact is John Rachor had a hunch and followed it and thank God it proved out in the finding of Kati and the girls. Unfortunately it was too late for James, but we could not have worked harder in our efforts to locate and get to him in the two days that followed. Only the helicopter pilots and their crews as well as the ground teams inserted in the canyon can truly understand the terrain and difficulty involved in this search. It was from an airborn coordination viewpoint a very successful search and rescue for three Kim family members and a very technical and exhaustive search and recovery for James Kim.
The good that has already come out of this mission is the ongoing coordination meetings between agencies and individual volunteers here in Southern Oregon to make certain that response time to all emergency situations is shortened and that appropriate resources and management teams are quickly put in to place. All local, county, state, and federal agencies are participating in these discussions, as well as private companies and individuals such as myself. Our discussions will go a long way towards fixing the major issues between us, they already have. No artificial boundry line on a map is going to stop us from working together in the future to help someone out of harms way. We do not judge the reason why someone wound up in harms way in the first place, nor do we assign importance of the search based on who the person(s) are that are lost or in danger based on economic or political status. We treat every search and rescue mission as if the person(s) lost are a member of our own family. I don’t know a single person who at one time or another hasn’t made a mistake that could have proven fatal.
One thing that still troubles me is the timing on the Friday before the Monday John Rachor found Kati and the girls is after I had cleared Bear Camp Road three times from Galice to Agness and then started clearing Agness to Glendale……when approaching the zone where we located the Stiver family earlier in the year the cloud cover presented a visibility obstacle I couldn’t fly through so I departed the zone and flew up the Rogue River at the 2500 foot level right past the Kim family location, they were at the 2500 foot level on the south side of the river. Had their fire not fizzled out just before then or if I had departed the Glendale search route earlier the Kims would have been rescued right then on Friday…………so close and yet so far, these are the thoughts that sometimes haunt those of us volunteers SAR members.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Randy, You guys are great.
I particularly appreciate your comment “…I don’t know a single person who at one time or another hasn’t made a mistake that could have proven fatal.”
The malicious comments are from a very small minority, but they are hurtful.
Thanks so much for your post. John Rachor has done yet another good deed by pointing you to Joe’s blog.
Randy Jones, thank you very much for all you do to help and for stopping by here.
Yes #139, virtually everyone has made travel mistakes. Unfortunately, your daughter and her late husband made a whole series of them and did so under conditions that made their mistakes especially dangerous.
On a different board, someone posted the following message that I think captures it very well:
I attended a meeting of corporate fleet managers a few months ago and one of the topics of discussion was how to reduce fleet accidents (and fatalities). To prepare, I started to review a couple hundred accident files on the National Transportation Safety Board to determine some of the root causes of major accidents. One thing that was striking was that most accidents had four to five factors that led to the tragedy in one way or another. In many of the accidents, had one of the factors been eliminated, the accident would not have led to a fatality. By the way, I don’t get any thrill out of seeing accident crash scenes. All I am interested in is making sure that my company drivers get home alive and don’t kill anyone in the process.
The Kim tragedy is a classic. There are at least six factors that could have led to better results:
1) Choosing the proper route.
2) Carrying sufficient clothing/food, etc.
3) Letting family members know their route before they left.
4) Backtracking when they got lost.
5) Cancelling the reservation on the coast and staying along I-5.
6) Not disreagarding all of the various signs along the route.
By harping on this message, future travellers may develop a greater respect for the dangers of the wilderness.
For the record, I have done some “industrial strength” stupid things too. These include four hours on a back road between Fort Huachuca and Nogales, AZ without much water or a decent map, disregarding the “road closed” signs on the Mt. Nebo Loop in central Utah, and trying to make rental cars on 4×4 roads.
Randy Jones–AirOne,,,
I realize that helicopters are often preferred in forrested terrain whereas scrubland is better searched by fixed wing aircraft. I wonder what you think of the total lack of fixed wing craft in the search. Surely some of those 50mph ultralights can do a first pass over those logging roads and be likely to spot any stalled vehicles.
Randy – thanks so much for checking in and for the excellent comment up there. Also thanks for all the fine work you did in this search and the many others that get, as you noted, far less attention than the Kim Family’s misfortune.
The level of interest here has been obsessive but at the very least it’s given a lot of people insight into the SAR process, and with all the professionals that have checked in it may lead to a few innovative ways to enlist remote volunteer help for future efforts. That remains to be seen of course, as we have not had much luck with the few “new” missing person cases thrown out so far as blog entries.
A quote from the 12/7/06 Mail Tribune – – –
“This helps fulfill my passion to help those in need,” Jones said. “We are a team there to help whoever is in harm’s way in our area, no matter who they are.”
Commendable, and inspiring. Thanks Randy!
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/1207/local/stories/kim-rescueworkers.htm
(141) Guess you didn’t have your fill last night Charles…please refer to post (136) for any further comments from me. That pretty much sums it up.
(138) Randy..wow…great to see you posting here. Joe once again you did it!
In any event, thanks for your prospective and your tireless efforts in all the SAR cases.
Wow I can’t believe you were that close on Friday – it is humbling to just see how small we all are in this big world – we all think we are so big and yet we can disappear right behind the trees and still think we are in the open.
Keep up the great work. If you think there is any benefit for online collaboration from fellow pilots – we would very much like to hear your thoughts. My gut is there is a potential for a spot to share current status and provide a venue for other local pilots to engage and pitch in.
Thanks to John R. for alerting you to this site!
138/Randy: Thank you so much for stopping by and providing yet another informed insight and calling attention to all those SAR efforts that the media ignores, they are every bit as important as this one.
142/Fools Gold – I have wondered about this too, but would appreciate a informed comment from a pilot (Randy or John, could you commment?). I am speculating, but with the steep canyon walls and heavily forested landscape, the terrain may be especially treacherous for ultra-lights. I would imagine between the presence of the river and highly variable elevations that you get some very unpredictable winds that would make flying ultra-lights too risky.
re: ultralight aircraft – – – I’ve never participated in a SAR operation but common sense would tell me ultralights could be used effectively in a Kims like search. Particularly a 2 engine model. The extra power and engine duplication could be saving grace if a sudden unexpected downdraft or gust of wind, or engine failure occurred when traveling at low altitude, at low speed. There is one model I think could be ideal for SAR…. the prototype was built to serve as a camera platform flying the Congo jungle at tree top level…. for National Geographic.
I’ve enjoyed many hours flying a single engine ultralight. Flew 80 – 100 mile trips on occasion. Carried extra fuel in a jerry can so when ran low just set down somewhere, filled ‘r up and was on my way again. BTW I always wore a parachute… just in case!
138 -Randy, Thank you for being here and providing us with your thoughts. I’m sure that few have more passion and dedication to SAR than you. Thank you for all of your past efforts and may your skies be clear in future flights to come.
Years ago police in Mesa, AZ or Chandler, AZ used an ultralight for surveillance work but weather and terrain of Oregon are far different than Phoenix suburbs. I agree that the twin engine low and slow camera bed plane would be good but feel just about anything would be okay if there were a team up there rather than a solitary searcher. I doubt a fixed wing aircraft could have done anything but “clear roads”. Dropping supplies and rescue teams is helicopter work. Winds along mountain ridges? Well, I don’t think its a picnic for the helicopter pilots either.
Hello all,
First of all I would like to thank my friend Randy Jones for leaving his comments on this forum. Randy would probably never mention it here but he has participated in over 80 SAR missions all at his own expense. Randy is a very successful local businessman who stops whatever he is doing when needed by SAR.
So far my comments here have been more technical in nature than philisophical but I would like to share a few thoughts: If mistakes were made during the search they will be rectified. I heard John Madden say the other day “There is no reason to yell at a receiver for dropping the ball, he knows he dropped the ball and he feels worse than anyone else”.
And finally,
When a tragic event like this happens the ones who suffer the most are the survivors. James’ suffering has stopped but it continues for Kati and the girls, James’ parents, siblings, and relatives, and Kati’s family. What I feel we need to do as friends, family, and fellow human beings is be as kind, loving, and supportive as possible to help heal the wounds, and it will take time. We can make it work if we all help.
Thank you for your time,
John
151/John Rachor: So very well said, esp. paragraph 3, a timely reminder of what is really important – the human cost of such stories.
(151) John thanks for the perspective on both Randy and the Kim story. You really nailed it on the head with the wide receiver analogy and how the survivors must cope with life.
It is something that will never go away for them – I am sure Kati will second guess for many years to come as well as others. Time doesn’t really heal it just creates enough of a buffer so that we might find some peace during the rest of our lives.
And Randy – I am now even now more impressed – way to go – giving back to your community is so critical! Nice job.
Death has one characteristic that nothing else has – it is truly final – no do over, no instant replay review, no second chance – it is just over.
151 – John Rachor, you are even more wonderful than I thought. So very, very well put. Thank you. For that, for everything. We need more folks like you in the world.
John – thanks for checking back in. You, Randy, and the other great SAR folks are really a credit to our community here in Southern Oregon!
I wonder what the Kims could have done to improve the chances of being found. In particular, if I were to get stuck or stranded on a similar road, what should I do?
It seems that one problem was that they stopped in a small clearing in well developed second growth. The car could only be seen from overhead, and even the tire smoke had trouble rising above the tree tops. I suspect that six miles back, closer to the Black Bar Lodge turnoff, there were areas where the road was more visible from the air, either due to newer clearcuts or slopes overlooking the river. But they probably did not notice this when driving during the night.
If I recall correctly the pilot first saw Kati running, not the car. There was also mention of a message in snow – I assume that was on the road that ran south up the ridge from the car.
Tires are supposed to give lots of smoke, but apparently the fire did not last long enough to help.
paulj
I wish I could describe the feeling wrought by reading these 2 points of view passages – – –
Randy Jones (138)
“…I departed the zone and flew up the Rogue River at the 2500 foot level right past the Kim family location, they were at the 2500 foot level on the south side of the river. Had their fire not fizzled out just before then or if I had departed the Glendale search route earlier the Kims would have been rescued right then on Friday…………so close and yet so far…”
Kati Kim: 9 – OSSA Report – II
“The signal fire had just “fizzled” out when Kati and James heard a helicopter in the area. James frantically tried to relight the fire hoping those in the helicopter might see it. It was so damp and wet that he couldn’t get the fire going again. Kati describes that afternoon, near dark about 4:30, as one of the toughest moments of their ordeal”
Hi! I have been busy trying to catch up with the rest of my life. But I also want to join in and thank John Rachor and
Randy Jones. It is an honor to have you, your thoughts, and
your reflections on your experience here.
I think it honors James too, that you are here as well. It shows how much you care.
Wow, people are still coming out of the woodwork here!
I thought you might be interested to know there is more specific info. about a memorial, as well as a technology fund to benefit public schools in James’s name:
http://www.jamesandkati.com
😀 Attention 😀
Thanks to some clever friends of Jim Gray and Amazon.com YOU can help review Satellite images in an effort to find Jim Gray’s boat at sea:
http://www.mturk.com/mturk/preview?groupId=J0XZ58STDWJZ5QY4F9M0
156 Signal Optimization
I think it was a combination of a desire to ‘press on’ and hope to encounter “some way out” (a descending road, a settlement, a lone structure, anything) and the worsening road conditions. Sure stopping in a clearing is better. Stopping at an intersection is probably wise. Given the snow and windows and nighttime, could they even see a ‘good spot’ to stop in?
Once stuck, finding an open space for the ‘SOS’ message is could. Leaving an arrow to indicate direction of travel is good. Having fire materials ‘on standby’ might have helped as well as making use of even tiny amounts of engine oil as a ‘starter fluid’. They may want heat at night but fires are most needed during the day.
Once in a heavily forrested canopy I don’t know of any way to avoid smoke dissipation. Some branches probably burn easier than others and some probably give different amounts of smoke for different time periods but I doubt either of them had any knowledge and I doubt they would have a survival guide if they didn’t even have food or blankets.
I would like to answer a couple of questions posed above and then make a few more comments relevant to the Kim family search and an observation or two to help those get their minds around some issues, then I will not post anymore and get back to preparing for our next mission here in Southern Oregon. First, having flown ultralight aircraft….probably not a good choice on most SAR missions because most of our missions take place in conditions not conducive both weather wise or terrain wise, plus I doubt the county sheriff (responsible party for those involved in organized searches) would want to risk county liability for an accident. Second, as far as fixed wing, certainly a viable aircraft for searching, provided the pilot has sufficient training, having also flown and owned airplanes I would say the searching is better suited for open spaces and less severe topographical changes. Airplanes must search from higher altitudes above ground level and only down canyon in direction for safety reasons and must have a certain airspeed in order to not stall and drop out of the sky. The Cival Air Patrol can and should be used in certain search situations as they have proper training and equipment for such missions. Of course, the helicopter is most suited for most searches and can add the rescue part of SAR to the equation if necessary. This past year alone I located fourteen lost or in danger citizens in Jackson County and airlifted eight of them to safety while directing ground teams to the other six.
I would like for Kati and her daughters to know that two weeks ago I flew Sheriff Winters of Jackson County to where their car got stuck in the snow and then backtracked the entire route that James walked in his attempt to find help for his precious family. We flew low and slow for a full view of the long winding walk of nearly twelve miles on a narrow, icy, cold and lonely road to the point James went off the edge down into the steep and very rugged Big Windy Creek drainage. Having been on scene a few minutes after John Rachor found you and the girls Kati, I knew that Scott Dunn (Carson Helicopters) would be able to rescue you in his helicopter, so I immediately flew to where John had first spotted James foot tracks in the snow and began directing the ground operations from my helicopter and coordinating the other Carson Helicopter aircraft and well as John Rachor in his private ship. I am fully convinced that the reason James went off into that rugged virgin wilderness canyon was because he encountered a large black bear coming down the road he was walking up. James would not know that black bears are basically harmless to human beings. As I requested that two of our Jackson County searchers nearby (a SWAT deputy and a SAR volunteer) follow James’s tracks down the canyon I constantly inquired as to whether the bear followed James and the answer was consistantly yes, the bear tracks walked over James’s tracks numerous time for at least a half mile down the canyon. Once committed on this course James would not know that had he gone uphill at the first stream fork he encountered he could of return to the road he was on with a much shorter transition than his orginal track into the canyon. James, like most of us in his situation at that time continued downstream thinking he would eventually get to the river and possible help for his family. What he couldn’t know was that there was no remotely possible way to exit that canyon safely. All of us helicopter pilots knew this fact as between the four helicopters working as a constant overhead team we must have flown the canyon top to bottom searching for James at least two hundred times low and slow with very skilled spotters and pilots searching. What we as pilots did not know until we inserted Eric Johnson on Tuesday afternoon after spotting some clothing mid-canyon was that James would not have been able to even hear any of the helicopters searching for him. The canyon was so narrow and lined with two hundred foot tall trees as well as steep canyon walls that the roar of the stream drowned out the sound of the helicopters, Eric Johnson reported this to me. As Eric was in the canyon I gave him ten minutes to gather James’s belongings and yell and whistle for James. This is because it was late in the afternoon, the canyon was already very dark and Steve Metheny, pilot for Carson Helicopters had to have a chance to extract Eric. We had discovered earlier that our 150-200 long line for short haul operations would not reach the canyon floor from below the helicopter, so I authorized Steve to land at Black Bar along the river and add an additional 80 feet of line so we could get Eric in position to hopefully reach James. James had already moved further downstream to where he was recovered on Wednesday. Kati, some of us have never met you, but I want you to know that absolutely everything humanly possible was taking place to reach and hopefully rescue James. I am sorry for your loss and we mourn with you. On the brighter side, I couldn’t be more pleased for the saving of your own life and those of your precious daughters. During the day on Tuesday OSP wanted me to retrieve your laptop computers from your car, as I sat my helicopter down in the very tight confines of your encampment, fire pit and your car with all the tires removed, the signals marked in the snow, I said a little thank you prayer and asked God to help up find James alive. My spotter, Skip Snyder, and I couldn’t just leave with the two computers, we loaded up the back seat of my helicopter with all the personal effects we could find, including your camera, daughters suitcases, and even that broken umbrella you used to flag down my friend John Rachor who followed a hunch and found you. Your family has touched our hearts and we wish you the best possible for your future. James traversed some of the most rugged country in the western United States trying to get help for his family, don’t ever let anyone tell you different. We all have a time to leave this life, no one will escape that, you and your daughters may not have been found in time if it weren’t for tracks in the snow James left on his quest for help. As I finished flying Sheriff Winters over the entire canyon route James took and then up the long trek to Bear Camp Road and then on back in to civilization there was a tear on his cheek as well as on mine thinking how difficult this journey had been. Kati, people take wrong turns in life all the time, usually, by luck or grace, they don’t become fatal. A lot of folks you will never know poured themselves in an effort to bring James to you. Without knowing James, I can say for a fact because of his efforts to find help that if the cup must return three quarters full, this was his choice to fill it.
Now, for you armchair Monday morning quarterbacks…….I have read some of your musings, most of you got most of what took place wrong. Perhaps some of you will reach out a hand to help someone in need instead of spending so much time analyzing and critiquing a topic of which you have little knowledge. Go to a local elementary school and help a kid learn how to read, serve meals at your local soup kitchen, become a special advocate for a battered child, become a foster parent, help the Red Cross or Salvation Army. There are many people in need on this planet and no matter who you are or how limited your resouces may be, you can make a difference in someone life, please consider doing so………
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
(162) Thanks Randy. Helps put a lot of things to rest. Also nice to hear confirmation from you that you agree that in part James quest was a success and he didn’t die in vain.
Hopefully his family can embrace that fact and find something purposeful from it.
Also with recent SAR efforts it seems a lot more people are getting involved in to help especially on the Internet and I can’t help but think that James was partially responsible for this change as well. Certainly a worthwhile legacy in the making.
Randy, is your position that no one other than yourself should examine the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6? If so, that’s unrealistic to put it mildly. As for various ideas on how the Kims could have made themselves for visible, my own reaction is that people who make as many blunders as they did on the way in cannot be relied upon to follow a set of procedures that might be perfectly advisable but otherwise unrealistic.
A better way to avoid similar tragedies is through public education about the need to heed warnings, be aware of surroundings, plan trips and not rely too much on technology, be it cellphones or vehicle features.
The use of ultralight aircraft in SAR operations is a bad idea. Those things will be buffeted around in even a slight wind. They are uniquely unsuited for SAR operations.
(164) The preceeding post was a paid message from the Charles Wilson somehow I am going to make money out of this organization.
I have just arrived here.
Thank you to all those involved in the search, and especially those who went out of their way to try to help,
like John Rachor, Randy Jones, John James, and all the others, volunteers, and professionals alike. Those who go out of their way, as they say, above and beyond the call of duty, or even without duty, that is the stuff of heroes.
This blog is very impressive, and I too thank the efforts of all those who care to contribute, you seem to be quite a great group of people.
After reading your most recent post Randy Jones, there are
a few things I feel the need to mention at this time though. I have been reading through this blog, and I have noticed that the people involved in the search tend to take it personally and get “territorial” about anyone not involved critiqing it. While this may be natural behavior, it is also natural for other people to have opinions about it. And this is a public blog, and it is called the “Kim Search discussion.”
So it is logical, that people will discuss the search.
I don’t get the impression at all that people were completely unappreciative of the search. The impression I got was that there were various aspects of the search which people found frustrating and problematic.
It seems natural that after the seemingly sensless loss of
a wonderful young man like James Kim, people would have concerns.
As an insider, do you feel that there was anything that would have been better if it were done differently?
Or what do you feel can be learned from the search?
And lastly, I feel you had good intentions, but it was presumptive of you to assume that people involved in this blog are not already doing things to help people in need. From what I have read, this is a very caring group of people and many of them have stated that they are doing such work.
I don’t mean to further ruffle any feathers, but I just felt a need to speak up about some things that seemed important to the greater good.
Thank you very much,
Miss Lily
glenn, speaking of reviving tired subjects that were beaten to death, are you going to start yammering about my alleged desire to make money from the kim tragedy? If that was the case, wouldn’t you think we’d at least have advertising on our site?
How’s that working for you, Chucky and Dee, copying John Rachor’s message from here and pasting it onto your sight? I’ll bet Sara R. checks you out all the time. Just a public service you do out of the goodness of your hearts, right?
I wasn’t involved in any of that, #169. I’m not quite sure why Dee did it. As for our site, we get a few hundred hits a day on average. The purpose, at least from my point of view, is to have a comprehensive and truthful account out there for anyone who looks at the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6 and wants to know what really happened.
This site doesn’t have a single repository, and is dominated by people who are averse to holding anyone, and especially the Kims, responsible for Mr, Kim’s death. We think that’s unfortunate and misleading, hence our site.
(169) Charles you are searching for the truth just as much as Bill Clinton doesn’t lie under oath!!!
Well of course your version of the “truth” could work it really just depends on your definition of is, is…
Charles I have been thinking your motivation was some form of personal profit, at least with that I could almost understand why (although I don’t agree with your motives) you would do this…if you are not doing this for profit then you certainly have some serious issues!
Randy Jones, thank you again. Very much. You have shed much light on both what James went through trying to save his family and also how hard everyone tried to save him. I admire you for your efforts very, very much. And I do think that you are right that without being there, it’s hard to really know what it was really like, and it’s too easy to speculate and assume and place blame. The OSSA Report showed some real issues needing improvement, and the governor has appointed a task force for just that reason, so at this point that’s good enough for me. I do hope that improvements will come from this – there are definitely some very good people who tirelessly did all they could to help, and that’s the best foundation for any improvements.
Sadly, as much as we’ve all discussed it over 10,000+ posts, no amount of discussion will bring James back to Kati and his girls.
Thank you again, Randy. You are good people.
Randy thanks for one of the most touching and informative comments here. I’ve passed it along to the family via email.
😀 Attention 😀
The DangerData blog is now live here:
http://DangerData.com
I’ve only added the James Gray case to begin but will soon have more cases up along with contact information for the national information resources. Also I’ll have a way to suggest new cases. If you want to be a moderator for that blog (ie somebody who will help set up new cases and screen for abuse, etc.), send me a mail here: jhunkins@gmail.com
I’m using a very similar format as Joe Duck to start this out.
YOU can help with the search for James Gray at sea thanks to Amazon.com’s brilliant use of their Mechanical Turk service.
I should note that Charles Wilson whatever his motives has no credibility with the family and friends of the Kims. He is simply an irritant.
Randy thanks for your participation on this blog and especially the information in post 162. You and John R. are giants in my book.
172 It is time to say that although we have not met him in person, Joe Duck has been a true friend of my family. He has alerted us several items to things that needed attention for instance when the officials needed Kati’s timely input for their report. Kati responded promptly after I passed on the information from Joe to her. He has also heard my concerns both on the phone and via email.
Joe, thanks for all that you do.
Thanks Phil, that means a lot to me and it’s been a pleasure to be of a little help in all this.
Kati’s Dad, I understand that the Kim family and her friends don’t appreciate our work. We have concluded that your son-in-law lost his life primarily due to his and your daughter’s negligence.
We also stated that we don’t believe your daughter was completely forthcoming with investigative authorities. Her account as given in the OSSA report is internally contradictory, and conflicts directly with what two witnesses said, including one who was interviewed separately by the Oregon State Police and Det. Mike Weinstein of the Portland Police Department.
I urge you to request of your daughter that she give an interview to a reporter willing to ask the questions that are needed to reconcile the differing versions.
You have continually attacked us, and particularly me, personally rather than answer the substance of our work. That is a classic response from someone who can’t offer a rational argument.
I came across this quote today and I thought of James Kim and John Rachor and JoeDuck.
” So let us then try to climb the mountain, not by stepping on what is below us, but to pull us up at what is above us, for my part at the stars; amen”
– M.C. Escher
Charles most of your comments are not appreciated because they appear as mean-spirited and often insulting characterizations of the events as they transpired, and very rude accusations against the family, SAR, and other people involved in the story.
You have speculated wildly and without enough compassion for the family, friends, or rescue folks, all of whom have suffered a great deal.
Take a lesson from folks like Randy, Sara, Emily, or the many other SAR Volunteers who routinely risk their lives for others but have nothing but a thoughtful understanding of these misfortunes.
It’s very unreasonable to suggest that Scott, Kati’s dad, and others involved have treated you unfairly. In my opinion they have been generous tolerating your shrill and accusative tone.
It’s been tough to allow you to keep posting here, but I avoided censorship from the start with only a few exceptions and I don’t want to change my open comment policy at the end of this story.
…. Tommo – Yes I know, I know ….
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
– George Santayana
180/Snarls: Are you so blind & close-minded that you cannot see that we have all learned a great deal from this tragedy?? Just because we don’t agree with you it does not follow that we have not learned an incredible amount.
(180) Those who listen to idiots end up with dumb advice.
– glenn 2007
Coming…. a new type of flying machine…
“Developed by Israeli helicopter company Urban Aeronautics, the X-Hawk is a “rotorless” aircraft. To be more precise, it is an aircraft that has the VTOL capability of a helicopter, but without the exposed rotors that make it dangerous or impossible for helicopters to maneuver in complex urban and natural environments. Urban Aeronautics founder Rafi Yoeli predicts the X-Hawk will have as big an impact on aviation as the original helicopter, and inspire a real big change in the way rescue operations are done.” – – – http://www.urbanaero.com
re 180. Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
– George Santayana
Kind of like you keep repeating and repeating?
Thanks Gayle! It is sounding like a broken record, isn’t it!
162–Wow, that is indeed a moving post, and brings it all home again as to why this tragedy has touched so many people.
Joey, what the hey, it’s your soapbox 😉
In other news: troll on blog comment page lectures, baits, complains “can’t get no respect.” Worldwide reaction: WTF?
Be excellent to each other!
While a web search on ‘SAR’ and ‘ultralight’ mostly turns up cases where SAR missions searched for downed ultralights, there are a scattering of links that talk of ultralight use in SAR. For example one small Washington county SAR lists an ultralight:
http://www.sd.co.wahkiakum.wa.us/searchrescue.htm
“Equipment availability because of community involvement:
– hydrocraft
– ultra light plane
– hounds ”
In most cases, an ultralight pilot will become involved in SAR in the same way as anyone else: fill in the appropriate application, meet the same requirements, and train with one or more teams. That training will show both the pilot, and the incident commanders, when and where such an aircraft will be useful. While an ultralight will be able to fly slower than a larger aircraft, it won’t be able to fly as far, and probably not take as much equipment, including a spotter.
The same sort of issues would apply to the use of other novel equipment. To be most effective, individuals with the equipment and skills have to become involved as SAR volunteers so they can work as part of the team. If they can’t train, then the recommendations in the Sheriffs’ report for utilizing unorganized volunteers apply.
paulj
I have not had the time to keep with with the blog in the past week or so, only quickly checking in to try to catch up from time to time, is not as time consuming as it used to be to do so, whew! So if I have missed something, I apologize ahead of time.
To John Rachor & Randy Jones – thank you so much for your coming here and putting yourself forward and posting. Also thank you for your efforts not only in regards to the Kim family, but in all the past searches & furture searches you were/will be involved in. Both of your posts have answered questions in my mind. These questions were not critical in thinking, just trying to figure things out.
I think we all feel if we can ‘just figure things out’ then a reason can be found and if a reason is found, then somehow we can accept what seems to be such a loss of a good life. There seemed to be so many little and big obstacles against the Kims, some share some blame, some don’t,and yes, Snarls even the Kims. One wonders why just one little thing couldn’t have been a little different.
It throws it right spack in our face how fraigle our lives are and that scares us.
But when one states this blog has served not purpose, I strongly disagree. If it helps even one person, then it has served a great purpose. I have learned things here. Other’s have learned. In that alone, it has not been useless.
I also have no idea why the Kim story attracked and affected so many people, I know why the story caught my attention, but that is only on an individual level.
But it did.
I still feel that sometimes light is shed on a local issue which requires ‘fixing’ ‘improving’ whatever term one chooses to use when the problems affect more than the local and the local refuses to & only wider attention can get issues which need to be resolved, resolved.
The report clearly showed there were serious on-going issues regarding SAR’s at an extremely localized level and other than this troublesome area, the rest of the search was pretty well carried out as should’ve been and other people involved did their job not only as they should’ve but did an outstanding job.
Some of those involved kept stating improvements had been made but refused to state any improvements other that ‘new vests’ yet complained that credit had not been given for the other improvements – my question of tell me what improvements have been made were in regards to this – To me it seemed a fairly simple and straight forward question, if other improvements have been made, then simply state them.
In any SAR mission, there are going to mistakes and things which were done exactly right. Some mistakes are as the Kims, simply human, sometimes other’s are glaring.
I am so glad to read your post of concrete improvements which have been made. It was very informative, enlightening & hearting. I’m so glad to hear that issues regarding ‘borders’ are no longer going to be issues.
Regarding armchair quaterbacking:
Sometimes some of us want to get out in this world and help others, but due to circumstance beyond our control, we can not. We do not mean to be armchair quaterbacks in a negative manner, but using our voice is the only thing we have available to us to try to help others and to try improve things in this world.
paul (#181), I really don’t see evidence that those who forms the consensus here have learned anything of value from the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6. The reason for this is that you won’t allow yourselves to consider the truth of the matter. Without knowing the truth you can’t learn.
My choice of using the words “all and most” concerning armchair quarterbacking was inappropriate, because a whole lot of the comments I read were simply honest inquiry and investigation that needs and should take place. Thanks to Joe for providing such a site to allow this type of discussion. What I should have conveyed was that SAR organizations do not operate in a vacuum and that there is constant ongoing training and mission reviews so as to get better at what we do………it is a good format for both paid emergency services as well as trained volunteers to interface for the greater good of us all. Yes, we are sometimes a bit sensitive when outsiders make statements and suggestions concerning matters of which they know little…….guess we are humans too!! As you can tell we get very emotional at times, if we didn’t care I guess it wouldn’t matter, but we care immensly or we wouldn’t volunteer our most valuable time to such a cause, that valuable time is our discretionary free time that we could be doing something else with. I was just reflecting that last Sunday morning Skip Snyder (my main spotter) and I were searching for Ellen Miller up on Mount Ashland. She got lost on Saturday late afternoon and our ground teams from Jackson County SAR spent the night trying to find her. Skip and I spotted her tracks way out of bounds in a tough drainage at the 6000 foot level, it was obvious she had gotten disoriented, no one would intentionally ski into that area on purpose. We directed ground teams to her location and unfortunately she had succumbed to hypothermia before they could get there. It was another short haul air lift situation to remove her body and bring the search to a close. I still have the images of that search and seeing her family at the command center at our base camp. Anyone can make a wrong turn that becomes a life changing event for themselves and their loved ones and friends………
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Somebody switch off the “repeat” button, please.
(Oops that was directed at 190.)
Randy, in our review of what happened, we decided that, other than not following up on John James’s solid lead, the SAR teams did a good job. In particular, we singled out John Rachor as admirable for having stuck in there and finding Mrs. Kim.
We were reluctant to second-guess SAR, so we waited until the OSSA report came out to get very deeply into that side of it. What seemed pretty clear from the report is that the SAR command-and-control structure was confused. We didn’t think it actually had any impact on the Kim search, but that was by chance. One could easily imagine the same sort of confusion getting someone else killed.
To put it differently, the problems that came to light with command and control in the Kim search should be addressed so they don’t spoil a future search. Similarly, while poor road signs on Bear Camp Road had nothing to do with the Kims getting lost, they ought to be clarified as a matter of general principle.
Outside review isn’t a bad thing, it’s a good thing if done carefully. People who are directly involved in events typically become myopic. It’s the nature of the beast. An outside review can fairly be seen as “the customer’s perspective.”
My website partner and I were impressed by the OSSA report. It didn’t untangle everything, the contradictions about what the Kims did earlier on Nov. 25 being a prime example, but it still offered a lot of good insight into the SAR process. Any fair reading of the OSSA report shows plenty of room for improvement.
The command and control structure was confused because of the artificial boundaries and the multi-agency involvement, plus the demands of national media. Our organizations weren’t prepared for that type of mission situation, hence the after-agency review (which I participated in), the OSSA report (which I participated in), and the upcoming task force meeting later this week (which I will participate in). I am confident that the articficial boundaries will come down as I too take an outside look from a volunteer position while having inside information. I cannot nor should not speak out of turn in this type of format. I say that to be respectful of all the agency people involved who do not have the authority to speak in a public forum like this…….I will monitor this blog site for future suggestions as there is value in doing so, I will not speak often and will try to not violate the trust of those attempting to change systems for the betterment of us all.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Randy, because this takes me into new territory, I’ve responded to you in detail in the General Discussion area of the forum on our website.
Here’s a news story on the Mt Ashland case that Randy mentioned:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0130/local/stories/skier-dies.htm
(196) Charles you never stop do you…what a sleazy way to try to get someone over to your site.
Joe haven’t you had enough of this crap yet? He constantly promotes his site and now is continuing trying to steal more of your efforts. I for one vote for a complete blocking of Charles and his merry whatever they call themselves.
Joe you have been super patient but enough is enough!
Randy, thank you for your most valuable insight here, and I know you won’t be hornswaggled into responding on the other site, which is aimed at castigating the Kim family. To set up a web site under the guise of “getting at the truth” and turn it into a podium for pontificating one’s sick agenda is bad enough, but then he tries to hijack this discussion because they can’t generate their own. As you saw reading the JD posts, all views are welcome when presented respectfully and without personal animosity, but the vehemence with which Kati and James Kim have been attacked personally is of no value to the discussion and serves to hurt the family members.
We stipulated early on to the premise that the Kims made mistakes, who hasn’t, but CW is fascinated and obsessed with that concept, and can’t get past it. He has accused them of vile things with no basis, all to perpetuate his fantasies of what they did.
Thanks again for your comments, I am particularly interested in the multi-juridictional problems as I have experienced them in a different context, and wondered to what extent they played a part.
(199) Madeleine you know what is really a shame, people like CW get lost all the time and SAR personnel have to risk their necks to save them – that just doesn’t seem fair does it?
Madeleine & Glenn, your accusations of our web site are getting exagerated and unreasonable, and frankly, unfounded. Today, at this moment, I will not stand by silently and let that slide. As I’ve said before, I only visit here these days to find news important to me. And I surf all kinds of web sites for the same thing. I try to avoid this place because I haven’t had good experiences here, plain and simple, and I don’t agree with the premises that for the most part, dominate discussion.
Charles’ #196 comment is not that big of a deal, nor is it “sleazy” Glenn. He’s just trying to take it somewhere else, like you’ve been recommending. Going to our web site is not the forbidden evil thing you portray it to be. And we know you are dead set against us, but inferring that Charles should get lost and perish only reveals your overly emotional investment in dissing us. So begging someone not to go there, Madeleine, because we are “aimed at castigating the Kim family” is simply your opinion. It is not our goal. There have been no “vile things” accused on our web site. You’re both entitled to your opinions, but so am I.
(201) Dee, seriously give it a rest.
Please don’t make me post the link back to M&T so people can see how personal you made this. I am sure people like Frances hasn’t forgotten, etc…why do you even go there?
As for CW talking it somewhere else – ah…that means you don’t bring it here at ALL. It is sleazy for CW to bait people over here for one purpose…to get them to post over there.
Face the facts if people cared at all about your distortions of events and your position they would be over there. Bottom line is people don’t buy what you guys are selling and they have no interest.
Stop trying to take away from something positive over here. Sometimes it is like communicating with a wall when trying to get it through to you.
Your theories are going over like a lead balloon!
shut up, glenn.
(200) I want to make a clarification on my statement there. I would never wish anyone into harm’s way.
It is my opinion that CW and a few others lack perspective about the reality of people getting lost (especially how innocent and easy it is to happen) and SAR activities and the volunteers – maybe if they had ever experienced it they would understand and have some compassion.
Bottom line about SAR – it is ALL about compassion – without no one would ever get rescued!
(203) Dee if you are going to try to do that…please do it right. You can refer to post (133).
Actually I am surprised that you didn’t post a new link to that image and take credit for it.
Dee, I will bet that somewhere there is a prospective book or article or series of articles for which this information is being “collected” and mined over here and on the “other” site. Just say so, if true. You get lumped in with CW because you are his partner in the website and therefore must condone his tactics, and and you take material without attribution.
CW was finished with me the day he gleefully described interviewing a woman who had just witnessed her husband’s violent death in a freak accident in a hotel. He described how he “got the story” from her in it’s entirety. I hardly think so, but I’m sure that didn’t stop him from writing it, if we are to believe that he was an “investigative journalist”. Vulchers show more sympathy for their victims than he did for this widow.
Obviously I don’t know you or him personally, so consider these comments aimed at your actions/reactions/statements.
Before you aligned yourself with him, I believe you and I had a cordial give and take on JD. And now you seem outraged to be put viewed by many in the same category.
This was not a divisive discussion until a small handfull of people made it that way by design. They know who they are. There is a vast difference between healthy debate and fanaticism. CW never had any intention of participating in debate.
Madeleine 206, I’ve cleaned up the attribution stuff, hopefully totally. Thanks for your post. I don’t have any plans for a “prospective book, article, series, etc.” Neither does Charles. I “collect” info for my own reasons, which, believe it or not, are not very complicated and certainly not covert. But I’ve explained why before, and I explain it a great deal on my site. Planning a book, etc., would compromise our goals and intentions, therefore, money is not in the picture. I realize how easy it is to suspect, based on past experiences though, and the dubious rep the internet sometimes has. This reply is for Madeleine, who has written me a considerate post.
Thanks, Dee, I appreciate your reply. And the attribution is a positive thing, that’s good to hear. We all brought things here from other places to broaden our information base, but I think we were careful to identify the origin.
I’m glad to read that you are now doing so, as well.
Maddie (#206) I did get the whole story and I did write it. And I did get a nice letter from the woman thanking me for the manner in which I conducted the interview and for the respectful tone of the story.
After all, the people killed at the Hyatt hotel in Kansas City in the early ’80s (1982, if memory serves me right) weren’t negligent for being there. It was an engineering flaw, for which the engineering firm paid quite a price. I might be wrong about this, but I think criminal charges were filed.
More generally, the [i]Columbia Journalism Review[/i], which once cited me as one of the best journalists in my subspeciality, published an interesting article about 20 years ago in which people who’d been interviewed in connection with disaster coverage almost uniformly described those experiences as positive ones. More often than not, people who have been through disaster want to tell their stories.
In Kati Kim’s case, I can understand why she wouldn’t want to be interviewed, or at least why she’d want to be highly selective in who she grants an interview to.
In the real world, i.e., outside of this comment board, most people blame her and her husband for their negligence. Any honest interviewer will take account of that sentiment and ask some challenging questions.
If she were my relative, my advice would be not to grant any interviews. As a member of the general public, I’d like to see her interviewed by someone who’d ask all of the questions that ought to be asked.
Oh, and as far as other material, i.e., a book or article, I’d say the chance of my doing that is roughly the same as Bush popping up on TV next week to tell us that he was just joking about Iraq all these years and we can come home now.
CW – If all of the above is true, why the disrespect in this case? Yes, we know you blame the Kims, that is your mantra, but you have gone far beyond that in a mocking and mean-spirited vendetta-like manner. You are not ever going to convert anybody visiting this site to your marijuana madness plotline or your wine tasting caper story, or any of the other tales you have hypothesized. So I can presume the only reason for constantly repeating them is to stick it to Kati Kim and her kids and her family and others who also loved and are grieving James. Why you chose to be disrespecful and disrespected here is beyond me, since you could have easily had a civil dialogue like most everyone else has carried out.
Yesz Charlesz, perhapsz you should postz the detailsz of your childhood on your vebsite. I imagine they themselvez vould be very interestingk, if you vere honestz. I vould like to hear them…
I do NOT want a psychoanalysis of that man. ICK. We already know too much about what is going on in his sick mind.
(213) Sigmund, you definitely got me rolling on the floor with that one.
Maybe he should try Dr. Eliza? (that’s for all you real old timer computer geeks!)
Charles Wilson at 209) [T]he people killed at the Hyatt hotel in Kansas City in the early ’80s (1982, if memory serves me right) weren’t negligent for being there. It was an engineering flaw . . . .
You are right – we studied this case in engineering school. The original design called for a single long piece of threaded rod hanging from the ceiling at each suspension point. Each of the two walkways would use individual brackets attached to this long rod and each bracket was designed to easily support the weight of one walkway.
Enter an unauthorized field change. The top walkway would now be suspended from the ceiling on a shorter threaded rod and a separate short rod would connect the lower walkway to the upper walkway. The upper walkway bracket wasn’t designed to support the weight of both walkways and you know the result.
Way back at Post #6, Paulj linked to the story of the New Mexico woman who was stranded for 3 weeks past her 2 week camping trip. A couple of hikers found her and hiked 20 miles themselves to get help for her. It’s ironic that NM has such a good SAR system, if I recall correctly. Rescue ops for the woman had been suspended two weeks before she was found. The temperature dropped into the teens at night. I’m guessing the tent helped, and she built lots of fires, but her survival is still pretty amazing. Granted, she did stay put, which had nothing to do with her rescue, since nobody believed she could have gone that far.
It’s an interesting case, not alot of parallels to the Kim case, but a few. If these two guys hadn’t changed their path and come along, the lady probably would have died.
One of the things to have come from all this discussion is that I look at such cases with a different perspective, to be sure.
(217) Madeleine, yes the NM story is interesting because of a parallel that I have seen in other SAR operations.
They make an assumption as to how far the person had gotten. That was the case in NM, and seems to be the case when the family was stranded in the RV in or about Bear Camp about a year ago. They seem to be surprised how far the person went. I wonder how that criteria is established as far as a benchmark for future cases?
Yes NM model is excellent and I suspect some of the good from the NM model will find its way into Oregon SAR. We shall see – I think in regard to the local boundaries you will see the biggest changes.
Another interesting point about the Kim story is that the car was less than a half mile from the county border and I remember correctly the other county had already suspended searching for JoCo.
Maddie (#212), I have never suggested that the Kims smoked marijuana. I really don’t know what drives you and people like you to invent such lies. I am “disrespected” only by people who fear the truth, such as you.
It was PacNWer who made the marijuana allegation. I know many, if not most, think Charles and he are one and the same, I remain skeptical of that despite the fact that they share almost identical outlooks.
PacNWer showed up on our forum and made a drug-related allegation. It was the few things we censored on our board, because it struck me as potentially libelous.
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, and it indeed was PacNWer who came up with the marijuana story, now that I think about it. Sorry to have accused CW, he’s said enough unkind things without me adding to the list.
Hard to keep them straight, as both tend to dream up scenarios and send them up the flagpole. I don’t know if he and Charles are the same, can’t say firsthand and not inclined to spend time checking it out.
At risk of simply becoming a Troll Magnet, I’m going to move to other subjects than CW and his site and his demeanor here. I personally think he has a type of Troll Anorexia, which doesn’t require or depend upon feeding to continue his disreputable activities, but I’ll quit throwing food for now, just the same.
Charlesz zhe truth iz almost az scary az what couldz pozzibly be your real motivation… your deeper motivation Charlesz, yez, deeper, deeper, go deeper… Tell me about your parentz, what zey did to you and how zey made you feel,
Charlesz…
(222) The ole troll binge and purge!!!
222 – Madeleine, Troll Anorexia. Now that was a funny and so true way to describe trolls that don’t even rely on being fed.
Gee, Maddie, I love the way you “apologize.” It makes me wonder if anyone tells you how cute you are when you’re mad. Sheesh.
“Another interesting point about the Kim story is that the car was less than a half mile from the county border and I remember correctly the other county had already suspended searching for JoCo.”
It’s about 0.2 miles on BLM 33-9-21 to Curry Co. The BLM maze crosses over the county line ridge into Curry Co. However, I don’t see any road connection from this area back on to FS23. So any ground search had to come by way of Josephine.
My impression is that Josephine and Curry worked pretty well together during the first couple of days. Each sent a crew up Bear Camp as far as they could go, and followed that up with a snow cat run over the whole thing. In fact two runs, I recall Sara’s comments correctly. Curry, though, does not seem to have any specialized equipment or SAR teams, especially when it comes to the mountains and snow.
The newspaper criticism made a big deal about Josephine Co not requesting Nat Guard heat seeking flights. But I wonder how close the search they flew for Curry Co. got to the car. We now know that Randy got awfully close while searching other routes in the area.
I can almost predict that next time someone gets lost trying to cross these mountains, Bear Camp will be checked, Eden Valley will be checked, the BLM maze will be checked, yet the car will be found further south along the Illinois River.
paulj
I hope all these ‘reviews’ and ‘task forces’ will come up with useful suggestions that actally aid those who are slogging through the snow. There was a tremendous amount of work done by a great many people who whittled a large multi-state area down to a manageable search area fairly well, albeit not with absolute perfection. Certainly areas of miscommunication and repetitious information relay have been highlighted. Certainly some problems have appeared with precision of communication and mission status reviews. Preprinted forms might help to distinguish between ‘cleared’ and ‘cleared as far as snow permitted’ or the like. Its clear that certain air assets have benefits but weather and time of night are crucial in their use. FLIR may not help but if it is to help it seems to help best in the wee hours of the morning before morning fogs form. Yet such FLIR flights take time to organize and have to be planned so as to avoid unnecessary dangers to the flight personnel.
I realize some counties may have a very small tax base but it would seem that those are the counties that are most likely to have SAR missions in rugged, sparsely settled terrain. Mutual aid pacts help, but all mutual aid assistance units are subject to recall to their primary duties and such an arrangement may have to be reviewed.
Getting lost can be easy and is indeed often done at inconvenient times and places. Snow, ice, rain, fog and in this case, bears don’t always seem to cooperate too well. I hope that some problems can be smoothed over for the next time. It does seem that there have been notable situations wherein the lost adults and children have covered far greater distances than search experts have predicted. Perhaps some estimates have to be revised and perhaps this should be a reminder that ‘guidelines’ are not absolute limits but merely indications with a great deal of lattitude.
Locally, I’ve noticed a lot of mis-allocation of resources after serious storms. (Half a dozen RedCross food trucks wandering around randomly for several days where none at all would have been needed if there had been one standby power generator installed) or (Local officials ignoring “de-facto” storm shelters while concentrating on “de-jure” shelters). I think the Oregon task force will atleast force a refinement of techniques and a more disciplined review of available assets and information handling techniques. I wish them all luck. It was a lot of work in a very short time period. It really was a job well done, even if the results were disappointing in some respects.
Perhaps prisoners should not be stamping out license plates but instead should be constructing trailers for SAR missions or re-furbishing used RVs that can transport SAR resources. Some auto mechanic with a DUI conviction might be better off restoring old snowmobiles than spending time in a cell. Perhaps wood shop classes in poor counties could have a project of building portable support equipment such as racks to transport a snow mobile on a trailer or truck bed.
paulj said, yet the car will be found further south along the Illinois River.
That is the way of it, don’t you think? The SAR procedures improve, so anyone they find by SOP becomes a non-story and nobody takes much note. The cases that fall outside the box, or through the cracks, become noteworthy.
Participating in the photo analysis search for Jim Gray gives one a feel for what SAR must be like: nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, faintly possible something.
By the way, y’all have been feeding the trolls. See what happens? They get all puffed up 😛
If you want to see some quality trolling, check out the Yahoo! SCOX message board. The only thing they do there is troll and lambaste one another.
(227) Paulj you make a really good point – there are just too many spur roads, etc.
Too bad there isn’t a self-contained counting device at all the entrances and exits to the main roads. Would be a quick way to determine how many vehicles have gone in and how many have come out!
(231) Chances are it wouldn’t work. Contrary to much printed posted uninformed public opinion on this area, Bear Camp, and people lost and not lost here, there is more than one way in and out of this system, not just 34-8-36. So you’re looking for an even number on the machine, entries equal exits. You find two machines with odd numbers. Is it two cars in the system or one car in one road and out the other? Then there’s always theft and vandalism. Can’t we all just get along?
Regarding access to the BLM maze north of FS23, I can’t find any roads on MS Streets & Trips other than 34-8-36. Google Earth does show a number of unlabeled connectors. However there is no indication as to the quality of these roads. Some may be rough shortcuts that loggers or hunters have forged. I suspect that someone with some local knowledge and appropriate vehicle could get around the closed BLM gate. But it is doubtful whether a recreational Saab could have gotten in or out, especially with snow above the 3500′ level.
paulj
You are inventing solutions for irrelevant problems.
(234) Charles you are an irrelevant invention and a problem!
Say glenn:
You’re a poet
And you don’t even know it
But your feet show it
Because they’re long, fellow
I learned that one in the fourth grade.
(236) Charles isn’t that interesting…I remember PacNWer responding the same way back a few thousands posts before…isn’t that special!
Thanks to everyone here for redirecting me to Charles’ site. Anything that stirs up this much hot opposition must be worthwhile. I spent most of Sunday reading his posts and messages and, in all seriousness, many of you have completely misrepresented its content. Forming an opinion is not a crime.
Glenn, in parts of the National Forest area here one needs a day pass. Maybe someday they’ll have an RFID system where the pass is encoded and there are scanners. Hate to think of such logistics, but who knows.
National Forest pass is a parking fee for selected trailheads. A similar fee for Washington State Parks was sufficiently unpopular that the legislature passed a law removing it. The fee collection boxes are still there, in case you want to contribute something.
Snopark fees have been around for a longer time. They are supposed to pay for plowing parking lots and grooming trails.
If the government needs to keep track of our movements (for our own safety, of course!), a GPS based tracking device of the sort used by trucking companies, is probably more practical.
paulj
(239) Madeleine, that is a great idea!
(238) LOL
Paulj, wouldn’t GPS have to be installed in the vehicle to do any good? I’m the last to want gov’t imposed on people in wilderness areas any more than absolutely necessary. But I don’t want yahoos destroying such areas, either.
Spent the 70’s trying to preserve areas we 4 wheeled in CA (those of us who didn’t run over plants and tear things up). I think of the areas that are now closed, and we’ve lost a lot of access to public land. Pismo Beach, for example, access to the dunes is very limited now, and I’m sure they are the nesting area for some critter or another, which is another story.
I’m sure passes aren’t popular, but we do have to purchase them here to enter certain areas, especially if parking. I set out one day to drive a 1915 era, long abandoned highway, but had to buy a pass to go into the area and gladly did so.
Yes, the GPS that I mentioned is mounted in the vehicle, and includes a transmitter that reports the coordinates to some base station. I suspect that cell phone based reporting is easiest to implement.
As a technical point, federally designated Wilderness areas don’t have any roads, and don’t allow motorized or wheel travel. In that sense, ‘working forests’ such as along Bear Camp are not wilderness.
Fees are often justified as a means of providing services, including maintenance, outhouses, plowing, even theft prevention patrols. But often a fee collection system ends up costing as much to operate as it takes in.
One of the reasons Washington removed its day use fee, was that park use dropped, and nearby towns resented the loss of business. One community had actually arranged to pay the park system to allow free parking at a popular park (Port Townsend), recognizing that the park was a vital part of their local economy.
Washington tried to apply the day use fee to all parks. Oregon applies it only to the more popular ones. Lightly used parks in south and eastern Oregon do not have day use fees. Apart from selected attractions such as Crater Lake and the Rogue River, I suspect that most recreational attractions in southern Oregon are too dispersed and lightly used to tolerate much regulation or fee imposition.
paulj
Thanks, Paulj, very informative for those of us who don’t live up there.
Maddie (#239), does one negligent person’s death in the backcountry really make you wish for a time when every single person is tracked everywhere by RFID?
If so, I have two reactions. First is simply, how sad. Second is to let you know that RFID doesn’t have the geographic range to be effective in tracking everyone everywhere, unless of course you also want someone to put an RFID transceiver every couple hundred feet everywhere.
Putting aside the obnoxiousness of it, the latter idea is pretty expensive. For that kind of money you could pay for the mother of all public education campaigns.
I haven’t found much information on the NW Carolyn Dorn case. A thread on NWHikers.net is the best I know of.
As best I can tell, her car “was found in a ravine nearly 10 miles up Turkey Creek Road in the Cliff/Gila area.” and the search ran for 3 days, covering a 11 mile radius around her car.
“an official search was begun on Dec. 24, but a lack of manpower due to the holidays didn’t allow for a full search involving dog teams, ATV teams and ground teams until Dec. 26.”
One source said she had hiked 5 days up the Gila river from her car. Yet another source says she was found near Hidden Pasture Canyon, which is only 2 miles (straight) upriver from the trailhead. It is only 13 miles (straight) from there up the Gila River to Hwy 15. The guys who found her hiked 20 miles (up this river?) to the road and hitched into Silver City.
So while some sources imply that the search did not cover a large enough area, it could be that the search did cover her location, but searchers just missed her, for one reason or another. SAR talks about POD – Probability of Detection – for a reason.
While NM places more SAR responsibility on the state, it appears that county sheriff’s office is still an important component, as are local SAR groups. A deputy acting on local tips first found her car. Decisions on how to conduct the search were still the responsibility of the local incident commander. Organizational differences do not guarantee results. NM SAR links can be found at dps.nm.org
paulj
New Mexico Search.
I’ve not studied the matter in depth but I recall from the initial reports that she had a sleeping bag and those are generally rather distinct. My impressions were that she was not in a heavilly vegetated area either.
RFIDs, I think those are real short range anyway. Its bad enough to have to fill out the trail books when you enter and leave. I’d hate to have to wear tracking bracelets but some big game hunters do have to wear large number tags on their backs. People enjoy getting away from cameras and metal detectors.
Taxation: Many programs are under review. Some cities are realizing that physical parking meters are more expensive than a simple cardboard window placard. Other cities are jacking parking rates up to extremely high rates to shape use patterns and give garages a captive market. Entrance fees at some parks don’t cover the cost of collecting them.
Sometime local residents recognize the advantages of nearby ‘tourist destinations’ and pay for infrastructure expenditures, others don’t. I know one city that has free parking lots on every corner that it can. Whenever a plot of land becomes available, its a parking lot! The existing merchants love it, but it is hardly a matter without controversy. Open areas draw tourist dollars and sportsmen. The constant tatoo on this blog from one poster seems motivated largely by a fear that publicity about someone getting lost and dying may result in land-closures and access-restrictions. Although the posts are reminiscent of a child’s constantly asking “are we there yet” and are motivated by closure-fears, some of the points raised may be valid, albeit off-topic. When the task is to find someone, hearing about how foolish they were to take a particular turn is not helpful. Such questions are trivial matters and are solely for after they have been found.
Free Lunch: We’ve all heard that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Bars used to have very hearty fare and for the price of a beer it was a pretty good deal, but ofcourse the items were generally rather salty which induced additional purchases of beer. Nowadays, some bars have ‘free pool’ that brings in massive amounts of alcohol sales. Its the same thing with various recreational attractions, charging for the pool table avoids disputes and disproportionate use, but it lowers the total amount of money that will be spent. Free concerts and festivals often pump far more money into local economies than fee-events do. Towns that want to make hiking trails pay for the roads and police patrols often find that use plummets with even modest fees.
(233)Thanks for pointing out that MS Streets and Trips underindicates roads (better than inventing ones). These older roads, not showing up on most maps, for the most part were put in by machinery, not just some tire tracks rutted in by multiple use over time. They are part of the old system into the area. There are FS roads to the west, for access to Stair Creek drainage, that hook into this old system, so there are at least 3 access pts. There might be newer dirt berms out there preventing crossover access to the maze.
Since the roads are on the ground, and we’ve seen how determined people can be to get where they don’t belong (quality of the road doesn’t seem to matter), we have to consider all access to the road labyrinth north of FS 23 and south of the Rogue River in both Curry and Josephine Counties. A plan to use vehicle detectors (231) be they pneumatic, pressure, motion, IR, or digital transmitting camera, would need refinement. Someone could drive half-way over a sensor, change their mind and back up, thus counting as one vehicle in the system.
Gates: I think gates are a non-solution. My fear is that one insistent member of a 15 person solve-it-all committee will brow beat and torture the other 14 into recommending gates as a solution. If you never go there, gating looks like a great solution. Gating has no impact on you if you never go there. Misinformation can have an impact, so I worry about that also. Stivers-Higginbotham RV was never on the access road to Bear Camp. They said they wanted to be, but missed the turnoff at the start of 34-8-36 south of Galice. Continuing on, they attempted to take an equally seasonally-inappropriate BLM system up out of Grave Creek north side of the Rogue toward Powers and the coast and became stuck out of Josephine County near the Calvert airstrip, more than 7 airline miles and unpteen road miles away from Bear Camp. By lumping these events together, the mystique of the BEAR CAMP TRIANGLE is inappropriately heightened. The man who stayed with his vehicle in the 90’s and died was traveling west to east (Wikipedia error says GP to GB) out of Agness, and although closer to Bear Camp than S-H RV, was not a victim because of any deficiencies the Kims may have encountered going east to west. CWAJGA
249/Rodney: I believe what you are saying is that other stories (Stivers / DeWitt Finley) have heightened the concerns over Bear Camp out of proportion to a degree. I agree. While many of the more complex solutions proposed in this space may indeed work, adherence to the KISS principle always seems to work best in my book. More and clearer signage, beefing up the ODOT map, and addressing some of the issues over command and control unique to this case will likely fix 90% of what went wrong here.
Joe and all, after reading the OSSA report including the interview with Kati, it is obvious that they went down the BLM road on purpose. Exactly *why* (other than to get below the snow) they did, and why they went so far, remains up for conjecture.
Some have said maybe they thought they could find their way to the coast. Others have said that perhaps they just kept believing that some service (gas station, store, lodge) was just around the next corner.
With this in mind, I have modified my rendering of the earlier sign suggestion. I have included the words “NO SERVICES”, as I believe that simply saying “NO OUTLET” and “NOT A THRU ROUTE TO COAST” leaves the possibility that there might still be services. The inclusion of “NO SERVICES” should close this hole. The sign could obviously be expanded to include the word “WARNING”, which I have removed for now.
I also took the liberty of adding a couple (battery-powered) flashing lights, just for good measure.
A sign that says, “NOT A THRU ROUTE TO COAST” would be telling a lie. I don’t think one negligent driver’s death should be used as an excuse to have the government erect road signs that don’t tell the truth.
“NO SERVICES” would be another lie. There is a gas station in Agness, Oregon.
252/Snarls & 251/Rodney: Snarls, unless I am mistaken, Rodney is referencing the road at the junction they turned right on 34-8-36 after backing down off FS23 / Bear Camp; the one where they were found. Unless there is some convoluted way out of this maze back up onto FS23, this does NOT go thru to the coast. Rodney please correct me if I am wrong on this.
This is the kind of simple fix that would hopefully prevent many others from making the same mistake. Nice signs Rodney, simple & to the point.
Paul, the suggestion was that these signs would be just beyond “the fork” on the BLM side. Perhaps a set of signs 1/4 mile in, and another 1/2 or 1 mile in.
Also, Paul, google maps shows other ways to get to their car from NF23 (other than from the fork). However, in my opinion, anybody who *wants* to be in there knows what they’re getting into, so saying “NO OUTLET” at the fork is perfectly acceptable, even if not 100% fact.
Here is one such route from the car back to NF23. Not being local, I have no idea if the road shown is really passable. I’m just going by the map.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&saddr=42.626112,-123.834758&daddr=42.690401,-123.776436&sll=42.690401,-123.776436&sspn=0.005449,0.009978&ie=UTF8&z=13&om=1
If there are some other ways out of the BLM maze, I am a bit puzzled as to why the BLM employee was reluctant to lock the 34-8-36 gate in early November. Supposedly he didn’t because he could not be sure the area was empty.
Anyways, I think the best that can be done is reduce the chances of someone delving into the maze by mistake. This Kim case is the only one on record (that I’ve seen) where someone entered the area and got into trouble. Beyond that we just have a bad local reputation, and a vague number of lost tourists that John James has redirected.
paulj
However, in my opinion, anybody who *wants* to be in there knows what they’re getting into, so saying “NO OUTLET” at the fork is perfectly acceptable, even if not 100% fact.
Once you start asking the government to lie, it’s a slippery slope. Today, a road sign. Tomorrow, something else. Better to tell the truth and rely on individuals to make their own informed decisions. If those decisions are irresponsible and/or stupid, so be it.
ZOMG, CHECK THIS OUT! http://www.state.hi.us/dlnr/warningsigns/images/Warning%20Falling%20Rocks.jpg
It says “Rocks may fall without warning causing serious injury or death.”
First, what if the rocks give some warning, like maybe they’ll teeter a bit? Saying “without warning” is a lie!!!
Next, and worse, who says that all falling rocks are going to cause serious injury or death? What if they just cause a minor injury? Maybe just a scrape? Or a bruise? Or no injury at all? This sign says “causing serious injury or death”. THAT’S A LIE!!!!
And this is on a government website!!!
Good lord, I wonder what *else* the government is lying about?
R-O-S-W-E-L-L
257/Snarls: The truth is I don’t think anyone could argue that going right at 34-8-36 is remotely close to being a “through route” to the coast. It’s more like, if your really really lucky and really good with maps, and you really WANT to go way out of your way, you MIGHT make it back to FS23 and eventually to the coast….and that’s assuming the roads that Rodney references above are even passable. They may very well be gated or in other ways blocked. The through route to the coast is FS23 – period. I have no problem at all with Rodney’s signs, they are a prudent and sound idea and nowhere near the slippery slope you seem so concerned about. IMHO.
#258, there’s no lie at all. Rocks in fact “may” fall, causing serious injury and death. Such a sign tells the truth, which is what road signs ought to do.
I think Rodney’s signs are appropriate and would serve to warn the public very well. I would not like to see an electronic system of any kind, was simply musing about it. Here, I drive a “shortcut” highway from time to time, and the transponder attached inside my windshield tells Big Brother when I’ve entered and left the road so I can be debited the correct couple of bucks. If I went missing, I guess the info would be helpful if somebody knew I was going that way and it showed I entered the road but didn’t leave. Of course it’s surrounded by urban areas, so not exactly the wilderness.
It’s worth it to me to pay, and I don’t care who knows I’ve been on that road.
It was actually helpful when my then-teenaged son borrowed the extra transponder and went off to visit somebody where he wasn’t supposed to be. Caught him when the billing summary came, not a smart move on his part. 🙂
No, not COCONUTS!
A long time ago I drove to Key West on spring break. When we got there we found some public showers and on the way up the sidewalk I was narrowly missed by a falling coconut. We all laughed about it, but only because it missed.
(263) ahhhh….
I think that some imprecision in signage is permissible. After all, those figures showing an ancient-style firetruck are hardly accurate depictions of modern fire apparatus. And “Sleeping Policeman” signs are humorous versions of our ‘speed bump’ signs.
“Limited” Services or ‘No services for umpteen miles’ might help to alert motorists to the type of situation they will be entering and would probably make them also think about food water and clothing.
CW, we have a sign on a road near a lagoon here in town that shows a large duck followed by 3 small ducks. Sometimes I see a mama duck and TWO ducklings, sometimes FOUR or more ducklings. I must call the city and tell them to change it to just the words “Sometimes Ducks and/or Ducklings Cross This Road”. But then, the geese wouldn’t be covered, or the possums… We must have Truth In Signs!
Isn’t there a ‘last chance’ latte stand in Merlin?
Maddy, how about this instead: [i]Caution: A Negligent Family Got The Man of the House Killed Here in 2006, So Everyone Else Has to Stay Away Now[/i]
Nobody is saying anyone has to stay away. It is a warning, nothing more. You act so smart, and yet on the other hand you seem pretty dense and thick in the head. Of course utimately you just want attention, so whatever works, right?
Some others for Maddy:
WARNING: Car-Eating Land Sharks Ahead
POISON GAS VENTS, 2 miles
CAUTION: High-Level Nuclear Waste
TYRANNASAURUS REX CROSSING, 1 mile
WARNING: Terrorist Training Camps, Next 5 Miles
Watch For Lethal Meth-Crazed Zombie Sex Killers Ahead
I mean, if you want to government to start telling lies on rokad signs, let’s at least ask them to make up some good ones. Or if you really want to scare the big city people, here’s a sign that would have stopped the Kims dead in their tracks:
Next Gourmet Coffee 60 Miles
I guess a little grape from the vine is influencing you this evening?
On US 2 crossing the Washington Cascades, there is indeed a ‘Last Chance Espresso’ stand, just east of the town of Skykomish. The east side of the sign reads ‘First Chance’. The sign made more sense several decades ago, when the latte craze was limited to Seattle. Heading east, the next town is the Bavarian themed Leavenworth.
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_081406WABskykomishaxKC.c254cec.html
paulj
Snarls: I stand by my points made in post 259 and you have yet to post a reasonable, persuasive counter-argument…you’re just trying to blow enough smoke to obscure the fact that your argument against the merits of Rodney’s very worthy sign(s) has more holes in it than Swiss cheese….not that your tactics should surprise anyone.
Joe in regard to post (270) you might need to post a sign at the top of forum to warn people when they come in…
Warning: Clueless obnoxatron ahead followed by his annoyatron minions.
Just an idea…
Where is the lie, CW? The BLM road is not a through route. Are you referring to “No Outlet”? I can see that being controversial, but it does appear that there is no outlet. The maps we’re all relying on do not tell the true story. I pointed that out thousands of posts ago. Strrets and Trips, Google Earth/Maps, Oregon’s State Highway map, etc… are full of errors or leave out information. Is there really another way in or out of the maze? No one ever answered that. If there is another way, then “No Outlet” should be removed or changed.
Whenever I see a sign that states no outlet…I always thought people didn’t have electricity on that street…oh well!
There used to be two other outlets, but they weren’t major thoroughfares. See (249) You do have to know where you’re going, better if you’ve been there before in the summer daylight, and downhill works better than uphill. Can be done in a car. They are awkward enough that even CW says “NO OUTLET” would be ok on a sign. CWAJGA
My mistake. I didn’t see the italics in CW’s (257) which really came from RodneyG.(CW doesn’t say OK)..Now for
SARers,LE, Joe Duckers:
Does anyone as part of an after action study determine why tips were not followed up on, tips which now in 20/20 hindsight are recognized as being good–ones that could have made a difference? A tip was phoned in when the missing person event became public by a person who also backed up the same night for two hours to the intersection of FS23 and BLM34-8-36. This person turned around there, but noticed tracks down 34-8-36 to the right. That was the tip that was phoned in when he/she became aware that there were people missing while trying to get to Gold Beach. She/he was told s/he would be called if needed. No call. This tip didn’t survive whatever tip triage existed, so is there after action tip rejection analysis?
To lighten things up. The sign could say “No Outlet! unless your name is Billy Bob or you are related to Billy Bob.” (no offense Billy Bob) CWAJGA
Regarding the tip in #278, when (what day) was it called in? To which number/agency?
The sign could say:
CAUTION UNPAVED
SERVICE ROAD
NO THRU TRAFFIC
and there would be no “lying.”
However, I think “NO THRU ROUTE” is appropriate, because it
is usually used to designate primary, direct Thru Routes as opposed to wandering meandering secondary roads that are used for other purposes.
281 – more specific:
“NO THRU ROUTE” is used to designate roads that are not primary “Thru Routes”, and that should not be used as thru routes.
At the same time, sometimes it is helpful to explain more of why it’s not a thru route, so the “Caution Unpaved Service Road – No Thru Traffic,” might be even more effective.
(280) I don’t know. But I know everyone in the gossip chain to me, so I’ll try to find out. Don’t know the individual. I’d be more interested to know what kind of car. Maybe the drunken person info source that didn’t pan out saw the car. Would like to know what kind of tires were on the car. But for now, figuring this is all suburban or wilderness myth, is it productive to reassess old tips not used or not valuable enough to change behavior for future analysis? CWAJGA
dkf747 at 275) said Is there really another way in or out of the maze? No one ever answered that. [] [I]t does appear that there is no outlet.
I have been trying to resolve this question by following all of the roads in the BLM Maze by overlaying satellite photos, B&W aerial photos, and USGS topo maps. There are several trails connecting the BLM maze to Bear Camp Road beyond the FS 23-BLM 34-8-36 intersection that are only shown on the topo maps but are almost invisible from the air. A JD poster long ago said that these connecting trails were nothing more than jeep trails.
In answer (at least so far), it appears that the BLM Maze is a series of loops and dead-end with no connection to the outside World. The single exception seems to be the gated road to Black Bar Lodge.
Jocosar inspired me to undertake this task in her post at p9 433), when she said In the “Bear Camp Area” alone, there are approximately 473 road miles (FS and BLM). FS reported approximately 160 spur roads alone, not counting BLM road spurs. Suitably intrigued, I started looking at the photos amd maps. I guess I was “facilitated.” The OSSR talks about searches between Bear Camp Road and US 199. I can now see that there are many roads both North and South of Bear Camp Road in terrain that is steep and deeply-wooded and would be hard to search, either by air or by road. It is hard to tell which of these roads were covered by snow during the search, but I can easily see that Jo Co SAR had plenty of roads to clear before the Searchers ever reached the FS 23-BLM 34-8-36 intersection.
It is hard to imagine that the Kim Family could have found a more remote place in Oregon to become stranded. If I had been conducting the search, the intersection of BLM 34-8-36 and BLM 34-9-7 might not be the last place I would look, but that place would be less than 3 miles away.
Brenda,
A little info for you= There are two other routes in and out of the 34-8-36 road maze. 34-8-36 turns off Bear Camp Road at the 12 Mile Marker. Near Mile Marker 17 on Bear Camp there is a fairly good road that connects to 34-8-36. It is steep but many of us used it several years ago when Bear Camp road was being repaired near the 15 mile marker. I have towed drift boats both ways on this road. That road leaves Bear Camp road at 34-9-18 in about the center of section 18. There is another road I have used near mile marker 20 on Bear Camp at 34-10-section 12. It leaves Bear Camp road right at the summit and goes by the radio facility before dropping on town to the 34-8-36 system. It is more of a jeep road but is passable when not snowed in. I hope this answers some questions for you.
John
Let the highway engineers figure out the signage. I’d say this: The Kims ignored six warnings on the night of Nov. 25-26. What makes anyone think a seventh warning would have done the trick?
Repeat.
287- The signage is weak, vague, and inadequate, and just because some signs are present, does not mean that they were “ignored”, and that is all I will say about the subject in regard to your persistent inaccurate representations.
Lisa, there were four big yellow warning signs on their route, plus two warnings printed on their highway map. I don’t think the Kims were inclined to heed any warnings that night. Rejiggering the signs might be useful on general principles, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Kim tragedy.
Our website lists a number of specific ideas to reduce the likelihood that the Kim tragedy will be repeated. We are the only website to do this.
I disagree. The signs are not that big, nor are they true warning signs, which are diamond shaped as a standard to signify that they are warnings and not just informational.
We have gone over all of this so many times, the so-called
“warnings” of the signs and the map are vague and inadeqate,
and you website is full of bunk, which is consistent with much of your interpretation in general.
Roads versus Trails,,,
I do understand that the area does have what might be officially designated as ‘roads’ and that the particular location of the stranding would not normally be a high-priority location, but the search was not for an off-road vehicle or some recreational four-wheeler. The search was for a family engaging in some vacation travel from the freeway to the coastal area of Gold Beach. The existence of a great many unpaved jeep-trails is hardly relevant. The focus clearly should have been on likely routes that someone glancing at a map might select and likely areas along that route where they met with trouble or might have taken a detour that caused them to encounter some trouble.
The total mileage of jeep-trails in the area is not relevant since their vehicle could not traverse any of it at all.
A defect in the current signage is it never states that Bear Camp Road IS the road to the coast. A person traveling the route not familiar with the area might just as well incorrectly assume that maybe there’s a side road up ahead to the nonexistent ski area called Bear Camp Road. A person would know they are on the road to the coast because of the Agness Gold Beach mileage signs, which are separate. Person thinks, “I don’t know where this Bear Camp Road is, but it doesn’t matter ’cause I’m just going to the coast.” (probably pointed out many times before, sorry) No answer to (280) yet. Be patient Tiponeal. CWAJGA
Thought I would let you know that the website http://www.ReadySmart.com is running a fundraiser for the Kim Family that stresses emergency preparedness. We could all benefit from being better prepared, it may prevent further tragedies.
This is no fundraiser! It’s another vulture trying to profit off the Kim tragedy. “10% of proceeds”
ReadySmart.com was just created back on January 16th (though their bird flu site address was created back in April). What perfect timing.
Charles do you have anything to do or any affiliation to readysmart? Do any of the other people involved in your activities have any involvement in readysmart? How about anybody else out here?
I have been in touch with the folks at Readysmart.com and I approved their efforts. They offered to donate some of their sales revenue to the Memorial Fund and I accepted their offer, they have been very friendly during our discussions. This was also done by CyberDefender.com, in that case someone at the company was a friend of James and very much wanted to help. Both of these were offers to help given through the website I setup while the family was missing.
Glenn, I’m pretty certain CW has no affiliation. However I’m sure he’ll be here soon, asking personal family questions again and questioning why close friends would be accepting donations for a family that just lost their father/husband and main bread winner. But I won’t be answering his questions, as I feel it’s pretty self evident that friends help friends when they are in need, certainly they do in my community of friends and family. If I died, I would want my friends to do everything they could to make sure that my wife and son were taken care of for as long as possible.
Scott, thanks for the clarifications and roger that on Chuckie!
Yeah your right about having some support for the family that is left behind!
Action is eloquence.
– Shakespeare
I agree that the signs are not fool proof, but they should be enough to warn a reasonably intelligent driver that he might have problems getting through to Gold Beach.
If I were driving this route with only the ODOT map, I would be working from the distance signs (Gold Beach 80), not the road names or numbers. But the first distance sign in Merlin does have a Snowdrift warning right under it. Since the map does not show any spurs or ski area (or snow park), I have no reason to imagine that this snow warning applies to anything other than the road to Gold Beach.
The big ambiguity is, are there snow drifts now? January, likely. Late November, questionable. Prior to reading about this case, I wouldn’t have thought there were still drifts in May, but apparently there are – at least until the shuttle drivers arrange to have the road plowed. The problem with this blockage is that it is performed by nature, not some administration working on a calendar.
In any case, signs like this should be enough to tell me that I should be prepared to drive 33 miles, hit snow, and have to return those 33 miles. And the message is repeated several times.
paulj
On the topic of warning sign shape and color. The shape and color of the Snowdrift signs matches the Oregon ‘Snow Zone’ signs. Yellow diamonds are appropriate for standardized warnings, and to show messages such as ‘winding road’.
paulj
291 – Lisa, as pointed out weeks ago, not all warning signs are diamond shaped. The color of the sign is enough to designate those signs as warning signs. The problem with those signs was not the shape, but rather the inadequate message on them.
We have gone over all of this so many times, the so-called “warnings” of the signs and the map are vague and inadeqate
That’s what the consensus here seems to think, but the consensus here is focused primarily on absolving the Kims of the primary responsibility for Mr. Kim’s death and the endangerment of the rest of the family. Therefore, you’ve attacked the SAR people and conjured up faults in signs and maps that, even if they exist, were irrelevant to the events of Nov. 26-Dec. 6.
What you need to do is face the truth about the events and the contributing factors. If you did so, you wouldn’t be debating the shape, color, size and wording of warning signs, among other useless things.
Scott Nelson Windels, two questions:
1. Why haven’t you organized as a 501(c)(3)? It would make contributions tax deductible, which among other things tends to increase the amount that people give. Is it because 501(c)(3) organizations have to file public financial reports?
2. Friends helping friends in need is an admirable thing. The question is why, with a very wealthy father-in-law, Mrs. Kim needs donations that might otherwise go to the poor.
Two more things:
In message 305, I meant to write, ” … the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6″
I’m not affiliated with ReadySmart. glenn seems to be obsessed by the possibility that I could make money from the Kim tragedy. I’ve written a number of times that I’m not engaged in any money-related activities connected to the Kim tragedy, and have utterly no plans or interest in doing so. I don’t know how much clearer I can be.
(307) Charles I have a suggestion for you…please refer to post (137) if you need a refresher! If you just did that it would clear things up for me!
305: Snarls – That is YOUR judgement of events. Others have different opinions and reached conclusions at odds with yours. People are entitled to reach their own conclusions but you seem hellbent on trying to change everyone’s perspective to yours. When are going to wake up and smell the coffee ?? (I personally recommend the Glenn blend for you). You have utterly and totally failed to sway a single person here.
I don’t agree with everyone here at times, but I respect that they are entitled to their opinions and don’t endlessly harangue them with my viewpoints. It’s futility, and I have better ways to spend my time.
If I were to visit the Grants Pass area in May, for example, what would be the most reliable and easy way of finding out whether the roads over the mountains are open? I would want to know about Eden Valley as well as Bear Camp.
I get the impression that from the west, the general store in Agness is a good source of information. I’ve also read of a ranger station in Gold Beach. How about the east side? There is a Rogue River info stop north of Galice. Gas stations in Merlin don’t seem to be a good option.
I don’t really trust flip board signs. It is too easy for unauthorized individuals to change them. A local phone number with an upto date recorded message might be good, especially if the number was posted with the warning signs within cell phone range. Who would operate such a number, FS, BLM, sheriff?
paulj
305: Snarls…You have utterly and totally failed to sway a single person here…
If you mean people who have been participating in this insult and name-calling riddled discussion, you may be right. Might be a different story with lurkers who have little interest in playing in the sandbox.
John (#311), those who form the consensus on this site — Paul, glenn, Joe Duck, Lisa, et al — viciously attack anyone who believes that the Kims were primarily responsible for their predicament and that any solutions should be based on this reality.
Their tactics include the following:
Ad Ad Ad Hominem – Complaining that critics are making ad hominem attacks on you after you have made ad hominem attacks on them. AKA Triple Strength Preparation AH.
ad hankering – The practice of accusing anyone who disagrees with you of ad hominem attacks, even if what they said had nothing whatsoever to do with an ad hominem.
Source: The Wingnut Debate Dictionary
No actually Charles and John, once again Charles you mislead.
No one here has never said James or Kati weren’t responsible for the situation. Everyone should be accountable for the decisions – and James was held accountable – he is dead – he paid for his decision and you should leave him alone. There is no purpose and no honor in kicking a dead man – so Charles you really ought to just drop it.
Kati on the other hand gets the priviledge of spending the rest of her life going over the decisions again and again in her head every single day. That is all she should have to bear. She has two children to raise and they are going to need a lot of love and she needs to focus on that.
I certainly don’t think James or Kati were negiligent. They made a mistake that a lot of people have made in that area – most of the others just happen to do it at the right time of year.
So get over the blame game and get working on something is really going to be useful. And a little clue for you Chuckie – education isn’t the answer – it may help and will only help if you can reach the intended audience and then will only help if it sticks.
BOTTOM LINE: People will keep doing this and SAR needs all the help it can get.
Let’s see, glenn. In your message 313 you wrote that the Kims were responsible for the situation. Why, you’re blaming them! After all, the dictionary definition of blame, when used as a verb, is “to hold responsible.” And that’s what you did.
So, glenn, how does it feel to be playing the blame game? Where is your compassion?
But you also say the that the Kims weren’t negligent, i.e., they didn’t “fail to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances.”
If they weren’t negligent yet they were responsible for the situation, then how would you characterize them? If this was simply chance at play, then it’s no more sensible to blame them — oops, hold them responsible — than it would be to blame someone for being killed by a meteor.
So what is it, glenn? Saying the Kims were responsible for this is saying that it was their own fault. Welcome to our world. But if not negligent, then what?
Charles: What ever happened to the time-proven concept of agreeing to disagree ?? It certainly would be more productive than this.
(314) Charles how does it feel when I am dealing with your responses?…it feels like I am dealing to a major assclown…that’s how it feels.
(314) For the record Charles we stated those facts in the very early days of this and we got over it…because we do have compassion and please call me names but don’t ever try to claim that I would ever even be close to being in your world. That would require for my heart and soul to be removed.
I can’t help but think Charles that maybe sometime in your life you were responsible for someone dying, it really can be the only explanation for your callous and ignorant behavior. Would you like to answer that question?
John at 286) This helps a lot. Thanks!
Gee glenn, I’ve read through all of the threads on this board and it’s always interesting to see what attacks are made on those who depart from the consensus. Now, it’s that I’ve gotten someone killed. No, glenn, I haven’t done that. How about you?
Fools Gold at 292 The existence of a great many unpaved jeep-trails is hardly relevant. The focus clearly should have been on likely routes that someone glancing at a map might select and likely areas along that route where they met with trouble or might have taken a detour that caused them to encounter some trouble.
You are absolutely correct, but we were trying to either eliminate or include roads in the BLM Maze that are shown on the Google map v. the aerial photos. And the more I look at the map, the more confused I get. For instance, one MT Forum poster referred to BLM 34-8-36 beyond the FS 23 intersection as “Way Out Pass Road.” I haven’t seen this anywhere else.
(310) paulj
Try the following:
Smullin Visitor Center at Rand
14335 Galice Road
Merlin, OR 97532
1 (541) 479-3735 week days
This is a BLM facility. They would
probably know mostly BLM road info. They might have info on the whole route to Agness.
Rogue-Siskiyou National Forest
1 (541) 858-2200 8-4:30 week days
This is the supervisors office in Medford. If they don’t know about roads, they could give you an alternate number. They would have Eden Valley or Bear Camp info as those locations are in the nat. forest.
CWAJGA
(319) Charles, no quite the opposite but since you are interested, I have directly saved two lives including getting a letter from then President Richard Nixon for one of them.
Have you ever actually directly saved a life?
Ever directly help in a SAR?
(310) paulj Private Sources of Information
If you called or went to any rafting company in Merlin or the Galice Store, they would have current road info because they run shuttles to the take out points down the Rogue River at the other end. They would know current road conditions and detours if needed. Consider getting a Glendale Resource Area Transportation Map, BLM Medford District. They have the road numbers. The roads have signs subject to age, vandalism and budget constraints for replacement. CWAJGA
Brenda,
Have you looked at the wooden signs in the BLM maze, the ones that Sara photographed? Even the newer one at the junction where the car was stranded, has the name Galice Road.
In case it helps, here are some notes that I took while studying those pictures (beware, there may be some errors):
143, 141 – BLM 33-9-21, start of dead end spur heading east from stop.
138-136 – Galice Road 34-8-36, vegetation obscured sign at stop, at the east end of this BLM road.
131 – Dulog Ck crossing, closest stream to stop; there is a river runner’s campsite at the mouth of this creek.
130 – Sample on 34-8-36. Note grass in the middle, a sure sign of light traffic.
129 – Gated turn off to Black Bar Lodge
128-127 – View of River, from bend on 34-8-36 just before BBL turnoff
115-114 – BLM 34-9-7 turnoff, sign
‘?’
”, ‘Galice 23 ->’
113 – BLM 34-9-17 turnoff; ‘shortcut’ to 34-9-21
112-111 – sign
‘Access spur road’?
”
”
110 – BLM 34-9-21 turnoff
104-103-99 – gate on BLM 34-8-36; gate is not visible on Google Earth, but the wide area to the right is apparent.
99 – note turn off to 34-9-34 on the right
Oops, the direction arrows messed up some of my notes:
115-114 – BLM 34-9-7 turnoff, sign
‘(left) County Line Road’, ‘Camp Wilson Road (right)?’
‘(left) Galice Road (right)’, ‘Galice 23 (right)’
113 – BLM 34-9-17 turnoff; ‘shortcut’ to 34-9-21
112-111 – sign
‘Access spur road’
‘(left) Galice Road (right)’
‘(left) County Line Road 3’
‘(left) Camp Wilson Road 6’
‘Galice 19 (right)’
Have you ever actually directly saved a life?
Ever directly help in a SAR?
No to both. And what does it have to do with James and Kati Kim and their negligence, or your overweening self-righteousness?
326-
Gee, and what do James and Kati Kim have to do with your
self-ingratiating demagoguery?
The answer should be nothing.
Because that’s all you’re trying to do.
Poor Anna Nicole Smith! How dare anyone say it was oh-so-predictable?
326-
Oh yes, and Your overweening self-righteousness?
(326) Charles thanks for the answers. It just goes to show that you don’t have the proper perspective on things. Your black & white approach just doesn’t work in reality. Charles let me give you a clue – it is all gray!
You know Charles, the universe has a way to deal with people like you and it is called – hard lessons! I would have hoped someone your age had learned all the hard lessons they needed to. You are definitely on course for a humbling over this one.
BTW: Do you support the dumping of homeless from hospitals too?
I might suggest you spend some time researching quantum physics and maybe then your perspective on reality will get back on course.
330/Glenn: Humble pie is another one of those dishes best served cold. The world is littered with Snarls who have had their hubris and arrogance brought down to earth by a tragedy, misfortune or accident.
Paul, last time I looked it wasn’t me who ignored six warnings, the weather, the time and common sense and wound up getting myself and almost my family killed. The point of telling the truth about that is not to rub anyone’s face in it, but to be sure that any action taken in response is appropriate and relevant.
Changing the the size, color and wording of warning signs is beside the point here. If you want to reduce the likelihood of another Kim tragedy, the first thing to do is understand how and why it happened.
The answer to that leads directly to the family’s behavior. For some reason, you and others on this website have decided that any discussion of the Kims’ behavior is off-limits. This guarantees that any approach you come up with will be irrelevant and ineffectual.
332/Snarls: See my post 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315, 315.
Hey look !!! – I just repeated myself about as many times as you have here at JD! I’m going to run with that 315 concept and leave it at that Charles.
Snarly Charlie, you just don’t GET IT. The facts concerning the Kim’s responsibility in their tragedy have been discussed here in the early days. Everyone has moved on BUT YOU. And that is all you have to offer this discussion, over and over and over. You could copy/paste your entries and save time typing, because you are simply that repetitive.
How long did you beat your dead horse?
332 – CW – You don’t really know if proper signs were put up if it would have made a difference or not. The signs thatt are there are not adequate. It is indeed possible that they might not have taken that spur road if warning signs were on it. Remember the warning signs were on the Bear Camp Rd., not the spur. Just because they may have ignored 3 or 4 other warning signs does not mean they would surely have ignored one placed on the spur. Even if they would have ignored it, someone else won’t.
304-
Dkf747, I’m just saying this generally, for you about
304, but also in regard to other questions asked.
I agree that the wording on the signs is extremely important. But I think the shape can be extremely important as well.
It is true that technically all warning signs are not diamond-shaped, but it is the standard for most warning
signs. When was the last time you saw a low, rectangular,
school or deer crossing sign that was as far away from the road as some of these signs were?
Most warning signs are diamond-shaped. And I know that for me, that is the main design element that lets me know a sign is a warning sign and not just an informational sign.
If you go to some of the websites that sell warning signs, you will see that they are predominantly diamond-shaped.
Information signs are usually rectangular.
The size, shape, and language of signs is extremely important.
Otherwise, we would have no variations.
Stop signs would not be red.
Do you think a white stop sign would always be as effective as a red one?
And stop signs are octagon-shaped…
All these things can make all the difference in what is often a matter of seconds…
In some ways, it is relative matter of what we are used to – in other countries, signage is different.
But here it is a matter of using our system of signs in a way that would be most effective.
Also I used them as an example, but you can’t really compare school or deer crossing signs to the snowdrift signs, because we all know the symbols for those signs and
what they mean immediately. 😀
Pauklj at 324, 325)Even the newer one at the junction where the car was stranded, has the name Galice Road.
Thanks for the information from the photos – this helps a lot. Perhaps Galice Road is sign-shorthand for “Galice Access Road.” It wouldn’t be confusing for loggers because they would take this road if they wanted to go back to Galice.
I keep trying to turn these Galice Road signs into a plausible alternate theory, without success. Even if the Kim Family initally thought that Galice Road would lead them to Galice, that would not explain James Kim’s reason for going back the way that they came, and is contradicted by Kati Kim’s statements in the OSSR.
I am planning a trip to the BLM Reading Room next month to see what sorts of information they have on this part of the Bear Camp area.
I doubt if Kims saw the wooden road signs while driving at night. But they probably did see the sign near where they were stranded. James may have deduced that they were 4 miles from Galice based in part on the wording on that sign. Unfortunately, he turned off the road into the Big Windy drainage before he came upon one of the signs that gave a distance to Galice.
Searching the web for ‘galice access road’ turned up a 1963 document listing a bunch of BLM public works projects. One was:
“Galice Road
Construction of the Galice forest access road will be undertaken by the Bureau of Land Management in October. The $200,000 project will provide an estimated 130 man-months of employment in Josephine Country.”
( http://www.fws.gov/news/historic/1963/19630812b.pdf )
So ‘Galice Access’ means, access to the forest around Galice, not access to the community of Galice.
Forest service documents talk about building the Bear Camp route in the 1930s. I am guessing that this 1963 project put in BLM 34-8-36, possibly following the older route up to the Camp Howard junction (see Topo maps) and into the maze. Paving of the high route (FS23) appears to have occurred in at least 2 stages, with the Agness half being paved after 1980. The junction is consistent with the BLM route being paved first. During the peak of logging in this area, most traffic probably stuck to the BLM roads. In recent years, the decline in logging, and the increase in river recreation, has shifted more traffic to the FS23 through route.
paulj
I doubt if Kims saw the wooden road signs while driving at night. But they probably did see the sign near where they were stranded. James may have deduced that they were 4 miles from Galice based in part on the wording on that sign. Unfortunately, he turned off the road into the Big Windy drainage before he came upon one of the signs that gave a distance to Galice.
Searching the web for ‘galice access road’ turned up a 1963 document listing a bunch of BLM public works projects. One was:
“Galice Road
Construction of the Galice forest access road will be undertaken by the Bureau of Land Management in October. The $200,000 project will provide an estimated 130 man-months of employment in Josephine Country.”
( wordpress does not let me post links )
So ‘Galice Access’ means, access to the forest around Galice, not access to the community of Galice.
Forest service documents talk about building the Bear Camp route in the 1930s. I am guessing that this 1963 project put in BLM 34-8-36, possibly following the older route up to the Camp Howard junction (see Topo maps) and into the maze. Paving of the high route (FS23) appears to have occurred in at least 2 stages, with the Agness half being paved after 1980. The junction is consistent with the BLM route being paved first. During the peak of logging in this area, most traffic probably stuck to the BLM roads. In recent years, the decline in logging, and the increase in river recreation, has shifted more traffic to the FS23 through route.
paulj
Sorry about the double post. A few days ago I had problems sending a post that had a link to a government site that showed historic snow depths. When my last post didn’t appear right off I assumed I was having the same problem, and tried again without the BLM link.
Anyways, if you want to get an idea of what snow coverage was like toward the end of November, search for NOHRSC Interactive Snow Information.
paulj
dkf747 – Re: The Kims’ignoring signs: If I recall correctly, Kati (I know, Charles, we can’t go by what the actual person who was there says happened, can we?) says they turned around shortly after seeing the “first” sign they noticed warning of snow (the “6 miles ahead” sign after the fork in the road). I hate to assume they ignored any others. They did stop to get further clarification from the gas station on their way to what they thought was a “straight shot to the coast”, and they did turn around once they saw the sign and then began to see snow. I guess it’s a matter of semantics with me, to ignore something is to see and understand it and disregard it, and I didn’t see evidence that they saw all the signs mentioned.
Paulj, that PDF was quite a find. With the date and project name, perhaps the BLM will have some historical documents relating to the construction of BLM 34-8-36. I also have access to teh Federal archives in Seattle, and they might have some useful documents.
I have the impression that Bear Camp was the site of an mountain logging camp and sawmill that was presumably at the end of a wagon trail. From the development of the BLM Maze, I suppose that all of the timber was transported through Josephine Co. and not through Curry Co. I imagine that there is a lot of history in the Bear Camp area.
I agree with your research about the road – I read somewhere that BCR was a CCC project extending from Camp Rand. I see Camp Howard on the topo map near the FS 23-BLM 34-8-36 intersection and to Buck Camp further up FS 23. I imagine that these were all logging camps in the early days.
Had an opportunity to drive through Medford today. Decided to put my money where my mouth is. I stopped by the Medford BLM office and bought a Glendale Resource Area Transportation Map date 2/11/2006 to replace my 1/23/2003 copy which was getting worn out. Cost all of $1.50. Has all the BLM roads and, what do you know, road numbers, too. It has the townships along the sides and range numbers along the top and bottom. BLM road #’s reference Township-range-section where the road originates. Example: 34-8-36 starts south of Galice in township 34 south-range 8 west section 36. Townships down here are south of an east-west line through Portland. Ranges are west (or east) of a north-south line through the same monument in Portland. Have fun. Learn something. CWAJGA
336 – I agree that diamonds are better than rectangular. However, the current standards (MUTCD) which is the same for all 50 states, allows for rectangular warning signs. They are in use all over the country. The yellow color is what identifies it as a warning. Diamonds don’t have enough room on them for some warnings, causing there to be a need for the rectangular. Either better driver education about the signs, or a complete change of the standard are the only real options.
342 – Madeleine I didn’t mean to imply that I thought they ignored the signs. I was trying to speak CW’s language. I velieve the story in the report, regarding the signs, unlike others we all know and love.
Click to access 19621031.pdf
Interesting gov’t projects from 1962, including recreational facilities at “Bear Camp”. Anybody know what those would have been?
DKF, I know you weren’t trying to imply they ignored the signs, I just couldn’t bring myself to speak to the source and start another round. I’m sorry, it did come across that way, should have worded it differently! CW-Speak can be contageous…
Gee, if they didn’t ignore the warnings, then how were they responsible for their fate as glenn and other have said you people already acknoweledged? Tell me in your own words what they did wrong.
Madeleine / dkf747: Suggest you go with a 315 on the 348…all other solutions are endlessly circular. 😛
I’m still waiting for a single idea to be posted on this forum that might actually help prevent future tragedies of the kind that befell the Kim family. To do this, you’d need to propose ideas that, if they’d been in place on Nov. 25, might have prevented the Kims from doing what they did.
Not a single idea from the consensus here does that. The color, size, shape and language of warning signs and maps are irrelevanr. Changing them might be advisable, but the tragedies they’d prevent are not Kim tragedies.
The only approach that we could think of to prevent future Kim tragedies is public education. But this approach would embody, by necessity, the idea that James Kim died from his and his wife’s negligence.
That’s an idea that the consensus here refuses to consider. It’s hard to know why, given that the vast majority of the public readily understands the reality.
As might be expected, California has a lot of regulations about highway signs. Here’s a pdf of allowable signs. Note that yellow warning signs can be rectangular or diamond. There are several snow warning signs on page 5. Chain control signs are black with white letters.
Click to access 2006CASignChart.pdf
I have seen on some steep British Columbia roads signs that give detailed information about the grade. They show in words and schematically that, say, that there are 3 km of 10% grade, a brief level spot, then 2 km of 25%, etc. These are of most value to truck drivers.
A sign like that at the start of BLM 34-8-36 could show the road climbing x miles to upper Peavine Junction, the relatively level to FS23 junction, then climb to Bear Camp meadow (4500′), followed by a long drop to Agness. Bicycle guide books show similar sort of route profiles.
Obviously there is no guarantee that a driver would stop to look at such a sign, but if they did, they might make a more informed decision as to whether to continue, and when to turn back if they started to hit snow.
There appears to be a rest stop on I5 just north of the Merlin exit. Is there any information about the coast route on the information boards at this stop?
paulj
Paul, all of your questions are [i]irrelevant[/i]. The Kims ignored four warning signs. Really big ones. They ignored two warnings on their highway map, including one that was specific to their route. They ignored the weather and the weather forecasts. And you’re wondering about % grade warnings?
Come on, get real. The way to have reached the Kims then, and future Kims now and in the future, is through a public education campaign that would tell people that all the gadgets in the world don’t amount to squat if they don’t use the gadget between their ears.
And federal sign guidelines:
Click to access SHSE_TOC.pdf
Here’s a site for a hand drawn July 12,1920 map ( T34s R9w ) map showing Galice Trail, Hobson Horn Trail, and Bear Camp Trail. Good luck. Leads me to believe there were only trails in 1920.
You can get other townships, but note the format. T34s is t340s and range 9 west is 090w. Kims stuck in t33s r9w sec21.
Here’s the main site if you want to pick your own township. Changing the tens digit on township up one or down one will take you south 6 miles or north 6 miles. Changing the range tens digit one + or one – will take you west or east in 6 mile increments.
http://www.blm.gov/or/landrecords/landrecords.php
I have great faith you will be able to do this.
Rodney at 354, 355) Thanks much for the BLM maps and for your instructions about using the BLM site. I don’t think that I have ever seen a map scale in chains to the inch.
“…still waiting for a single idea that might prevent future tragedies…”
There have been dozens of ideas posted and several comments about being overly concerned for one particular single causative factor. I don’t think a sign cautioning men who are hiking out to save their starving families to take their chances with a black bear rather than entering a very rugged drainage area are going to help much. Improved signage indicating the primary route to the coast will help. Improved signage reminding motorists of the rugged terrain and lack of motorist services will help. Improved forms and procedures for SAR personnel may help. Improved data links in rugged terrain with deceptively inviting roads may help. A whole lot of things may help but a constant tatoo of blaming the victim for his poor decision making doesn’t really do much good.
CW- You have not established that putting in a sign on the spur would not make a difference. I can repeat as much as youy can: The current warning signs do not mention, or apply to, the spur road.
How about this for an idea: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070209/ap_on_hi_te/gps_sneaker
How about this for a practical idea?
Force all lodging to cancel reservations that have not been taken by two hours after sundown.
This would reduce pressure on travelers to take risky routes after dark. A regulation like this could save lives all across the state (or country), not just one or two who might be tempted to take Bear Camp during a snow storm.
paulj
The James Kim Technology Foundation
I was most happy to learn that the above will be unveiled at the James Kim Memorial this weekend. This is a fitting legacy for James. I wrote Kati this morning with a yearly financial pledge to the Foundation from me and her Mother. Her response made my day:
“that is awesome!!!! this is something james really believed in, and a way for me to give back to the community that’s given me so much financial and emotional support.”
Kati’s Dad – Now that’s wonderful. Seeing something good coming out of such a tragedy is a blessing.
More about the James Kim Technology Foundation is here:
http://jamesandkati.com/
Paulj … lodging to cancel reservations that have not been taken by two hours after sundown
But paulj it seems this would shift the cost to the hotel unfairly, especially if people decided just to take a different route and not show up. Only in high season can they fill rooms cancelled this late, so the hotels would be hit extremely hard by this.
Improved signage indicating the primary route to the coast will help.
It might help other people who get lost, and as a general principle that’s fine. But it’s got nothing to do with the Kim tragedy. The Kims knew what the primary route was, and diverged from that route on purpose.
Kati Kim’s statements to authorities about why they diverged from the primary route are suspect, as we explained. Given the realities discenible from the various reports, it’s clear that the Kims were negligent in taking the primary route to begin with, and again when they diverged from it rather than return to I-5.
To help reduce the chances of a future tragedy of this type, we think the best idea is to redouble public education concerning the need to follow signs, read maps and stay within common-sense limits when traveling.
When you refuse to see the primary cause of the tragedy, you cannot offer meaningful responses.
As for a James Kim Memorial Technology Foundation, rather than a fund to buy more trinkets and gadgets for kids who probably have too many to begin with, you might think about a fund to educate travelers about the need to use their head when traveling in the wilderness. That might save some lives, if you should happen to want to do that.
Just stopping in to see any updates. Looks like the “repeat” button still hasn’t been turned off.
Why don’t you find out what the foundation is, before you criticize it.
The Technology Fund as I understand it is for for public school education and not trinkets for kids.
If I were set up a fund for saving lives, it would be a public awareness campaign on the dangers of driving while using a cellphone. Hopefully, legislation on this problem will eventually catch on nationwide.
I’m thanksful my own children are not of mindset like Charles.
Kati’s Dad, you’d better make sure your kids don’t leave the main roads, then.
366 anticipated response received
Novelty is overrated.
Kati’s Dad, who was the Kim family member who started yelling at Kati at Christmas? Did they throw her out of the house or was it her decision to go? Has Spencer contributed to the college funds?
Thank you Kati’s Dad for keeping it positive. 😀
Big ole G is here brewing something hot for Chuckie!
Interesting that Charles has deleted some posts on his website from what I can tell–someone who had responded to his out-of-the-blue and unsupported speculations regarding Asian family cultural norms. I was going to post some of his own postings here back onto his website to see how long they lasted (particularly the nasty comments to family members and friends of James), but I had to register as a “member” and I am not interested in being a member of that board.
I think Charles should be out passing out pamphlets to motorists “concerning the need to follow signs, read maps and stay within common-sense limits when traveling”, since that is his stated goal. Oh, wait, that’s what he says, but in reality, his thing is harassing family members following tragic events.
If he gave a rat’s rear about “raising public awareness” about travel safety, a noble cause if true, he’d be over on his site trying to do so in a reasonable manner instead of trolling here day and night for tidbits to take back to his den. It’s bizarre, to say the least. Perhaps he has the need to insert himself into high-profile situations just to throw dirt, who knows. The way he talks to (and about) the principals says it all.
Maddy, if the denizens of this board gave “a rat’s rear” about saving lives by preventing future tragedies like that which befell the Kims, you’d tell the truth about what happened and propose relevant answers rather than putter around with minutae like the size, color, shape and wording of warning signs that the Kims would have ignored anyway.
369/I think some people call this, nosy. CW you are fond of dictionary definitions.
‘unduly curious about the affairs of others; prying; meddlesome.’
How do the answers to those questions help keep others tragedies like this from happening?
As someone who won’t even credential themselves or share a CV, you ask awfully personal questions of things that are none of your business.
I’m waiting for your proposals on how to raise public awareness. Grant applications for funding school programs on how to read maps? (do you suppose it would help if kids could also name the 50 states if they lived in the USA?) I’m one of those who is ready to see you stop repeating and start putting the rubber to the road as it were. I’m signed up for the Oakland CORE I course, and a have a goal of becoming a certified ‘urban disaster worker’ by the end of this year. Then I plan on starting some courses in general SAR the next year. What’s your plan to make this a better place and to help others either not get into or get out of these types of situations?
It’s been 2 months and 4 days since James was found. Not enough time to have healed completely but time enough for me to start figuring out what I’m going to do to move on and how to give back from all of the positive energy and support we received from around the world. I’m going to work on becoming more involved in SAR over time. Kati is going to work to support technology in public schools here in the Bay Area. JoeDuck is going to work on his DangerData site. I hope others are thinking about what they are going to do, because most aspects of this has been discussed into the ground and now it’s time for action or moving on.
374/ Charles, the beauty of it is, the some folks can change sign shapes. You can work on educating the public about how to read maps, and travel safely. John and Randy can keep flying rescue missions in the Oregon area. SaraR can keep working to improve her skills and her teams efforts. Joe can run his online sites to see if they can help. I can learn more about SAR. Others can sit on their asses if they want. And hopefully in the end, we’ll either be able to prevent this in the future or have a better chance at finding those who get into the same place.
Arguing on the Internet about who to blame will be going on for about the next 500 years. But the folks who are doing something are the only ones that will have the chance to make a difference.
372 Yes, that post now apparently deleted nailed him with some truth about Asian culture. It must have hurt poor Charles to learn that he had indeed taken a wrong turn into the wilderness on that subject. Too bad because it was actually good information and not at all malicious.
Thank you so much for pointing out the ill advised deletion.
Scott, if you’re worried about the unduly curious, I suggest that you take your complaint to Anderson Cooper. And if Kati Kim doesn’t want people to pry into her family affairs, she probably ought to refrain from posting about these matters on the Internet.
As for a public education campaign, I think it ought to consist of revamping the current warnings about not falling asleep, along with enhanced warnings on maps and as rest stops. Such warnings have been pretty effective, but to use a pun they’ve been getting a little tired anyway.
If Kati Kim were dedicated to saving lives, she could even consider doing some public service spots about the need to pay attention to warning signs and to one’s surroundings. She wouldn’t be the first tragedy survivor to do this.
But it’s pretty clear to me that the consensus here isn’t really interested in saving anyone’s life. Or, to be more precise, if the goal of saving lives requires being candid about who and what were responsible for the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6, you’d rather sweep the “cruel” facts under the rug even if some future travelers die as a result.
Why is that, anyway? Just how heartless are you people, anyway? And Scott, are you going to register as a charity and open your books, or are people just supposed to trust you? If the latter, all I can say is that we’ve all heard that one before.
CW you have just been so far out of bounds in so many regards.
Your way will never be the way. Not on this blog, and not in our society and culture.
Public awareness is always a positive message, not a negative one. We don’t live in a culture that insists on viewing everything people do through a negative lens. We all learn from what’s negative and then move on. You are the only one who does not seem to learn from the negative. It’s like your play puddle.
You don’t care about signs because they’re not as much fun to blame! You only care about insisting they were ignored! But if those signs were people who were involved in this situation – they would be fair game.
You have demonstrated time and again, CW, that for you this is not about helping people or making improvements.
And if you don’t like the negative energy that comes your way, maybe you should realize that it is a direct result and reflection of the negative energy you give out.
379/Lisa: much as I like play puddle, I think wallowing in his pig sty might be a more appropriate analogy….except it would be terribly rude to insult pigs in such a fashion.
Public awareness is always a positive message, not a negative one
Hmm. I still remember two public education programs from my youth. One was a bunch of posters scattered through my high school that showed ugly people with slogans like, Smoking is glamorous and Smoking is beautiful
Then there was the safe-driving campaign. Oddly enough, it sought to advise people not to simply rely on traffic signs and signals but to add brainpower. It’s been a long time since those ads ran, but I still find myself slowing down when I see another car approach a sign telling him to yield. “He was in the right,” the commercials said. “Dead right.”
Apparently you haven’t seen any anti-drug ads. You haven’t been paying attention to the Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Ever seen one of those anti-child abuse billboards with the crying kid? Responded to an ad on TV showing a starving child?
If you think public education is always positive, then you’ve been living in a different country than I’ve been living in. You don’t know the first thing about what you’re talking about.
375 376
Excellent posts Scott. I cannot image Charles having had a career as a reputable journalist. Perhaps that is why he is unwilling to post a CV or otherwise reveal any credentials. I am very impressed with his lack of investigation and cross checking. I think his post about Asian culture clearly defined that deficiency and then he really underscored his problem by deleteing a clarifying informational post in response to his conjecture based upon the comment of his Asian friend’s business partner. Wow, what a journalist.
Sadly this forum is now largely about Charles Wilson.
381-
None of those ads focus on the identities of private
individuals!
382-
Kati’s Dad – it won’t be about him much longer.
Lisa, there have been plenty of public education efforts featuring individuals talking about their failures. Or maybe you never heard of Betty Ford, the drug addict?
385-
Those ads may use difficult imagery or examples, but they
always focus on a positive message. And issues like drunk driving and alcohol/drug addiction are immense issues that involve millions and millions of people. There is no comparison between huge chronic problems, and the individual sad factors and mistakes that were involved all around in the Kim story.
Those ads may use difficult imagery or examples, but they
always focus on a positive message.
No more or less so than an ad with Kati Kim saying, “Don’t make the same mistakes we did” would use a difficult example to arrive at a positive message. In any case, after reading Kati’s posts at Yelp.com, she doesn’t strike me as an other-directed lifesaver.
Which is fine by me, incidentally. This is a free country. It’s not Mrs. Kim’s duty to be a saint, or even to care about saving the lives of people who might make the same mistakes as her. Not your duty, either. If you and she want to use her husband’s death to stoke demand for gadgets, it is your and her right to do so.
But do try not to strike a “compassionate” pose. That sort of hypocrisy is rather unbecoming.
testing
That’s it. I’m done with you – all efforts at reason are futile with you. You will always contort and distort logic to try and fit your warped views. You know well that your efforts have not been successful and that you are in an extreme minority, and there are good reasons for that. As on here, most people do know better.
You are one to talk about hypocrisy!
Not worth the time. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.”
-Albert Einstein
That’s for you too.
Hello all. I am the one who was aned from Mr. Wilsons site. Seems he does not like it when people do on his site what he does here. I am sure he will try , in his own biased and slanted way to justify banning me for “Offensive Posts” on his site. I posted 2 times and the most offensive thing I said was that his so called writing was manure. I did correct his views on Asian culture aswell. maybe he does not like being wrong.
Jeff Nelson
should read Banned, and I should proof read more…
Well Charles you have joined the esteemed club with PacPutz…you too are just a putz! Again poof be gone!
(391) Thanks Jeff…I was looking up the word anned…I thought I was learning something new! 🙂
You are Welcome. I usually let my brother do the posting because he is so well spoken, but I just had to relate how Mr. Wilson treats dissent on his site, while accusing all of the people here of not allowing other views. Hmmm, he can still post here but I can’t post there because I pointed out that his alleged “Asian” contact was leading him astray in regards to Asian culture.
On the subject of snow closures, the local forest service district has a brochure for ‘The Siskiyou Loop’. Most of the backcountry portion of this loop is FS 20 from the Applegate valley east to Mt Ashland and I5 at Siskiyou Pass, which it describes as “25 miles of single-lane, graveled and dirt mountain road”.
It is a ‘popular summertime drive for local people in passenger cars’. The higher portions may be closed by snow from early November to July 1. Snow traction devices and snow-park permits may be required Nov 15-April 30 at the Mt Ashland ski area (a real ski area, not the mythical one blocked by snow drifts at Bear Camp).
An interesting note: “Forest Service spur roads posted with vertical road numbers are not maintained for use by passenger vehicles.”
No services on the 40 mile mountain stretch, ‘Be sure to have a full fuel tank…’ (and maybe extra radiator water). ‘Cell phone coverage along the route can be “hit or miss”.’
paulj
p.s. The Mt Ashland ski area can be deadly, to skiers, if not to ‘innocent’ motorists. Randy talked about a recent SAR mission there on a previous page.
(394) Thanks Jeff…but is anyone shocked here that Chuckie is a hypocrite? I don’t want to say I told you all so…but many thousands of posts back I knew Chuckie was up to no good!
394 –
Thanks, Jeff. 😀
Yes, Jeff, I saw your posts and they weren’t rude at all so far as I could tell. Just challenged Charles ever so slightly. That’s why I wanted to post his own words from this site over there to see if they would be deleted as well.
The moment that the Kim Family’s friend contacted the San Francisco PD, this became a matter of public concern. The taxpayers of Oregon spent a huge amount of money trying to find the Kim Family and they deserve answers from everyone concerned. They have received answers from Sara R. and every other State and County employee with more to come, and they deserve answers from the Kim Family. This is not a private matter and no amount of calling Charles different names can change it.
(398) Joy and (394) Jeff thanks for pointing that out. I haven’t spent any time on Chuckies den of misinformation but it good to know others are out there willing to keep the record straight…
Yet another example of Chuckie not doing what he says he was going to do!
Well, I did try and reregister but it seems I am banned for good. I do applaud Joe Duck for letting people have their say. This site is open for all points of view as long as they are presented in a civil manner (and in some cases, an uncivil manner). I will admit though, calling his writing skills “manure” is a trifle uncivil.
Brenda, even stipulating that the “taxpayers of Oregon” have some right to grill Kati Kim, Charles is from Seattle, how does he fit in? I will call him names as long as he insists on slandering members of my family and then not replying when I try to contact him privately. That is just how I see it. I think that 99% of the posts here are about moving on to useful solutions, not about beating a dead horse to prove that some people were to blame more than others.
Propaganda is fitting
brewdude, you can contact me privately at tilden30@comcast.net
403- oops! (was in response to 401)
Propaganda is a fitting description of Charles’ writing skills.
(399) Brenda they already interviewed Kati. It’s over, case closed. Kati doesn’t have to answer to anyone nor does she have to take any questions from anyone.
Just because Oregon spent money on a SAR effort doesn’t entitled to anything more than they have already gotten and I am pretty sure all the SAR people here will back that up.
Kati has been through enough and she certainly doesn’t need to exert any energy for a low life like Chuckie. He is a bottom feeder and Kati, and her family are well above that. It is bizarre that anyone thinks Kati has to answer to anyone – this whole process is just surreal!
Is it just too hard from some people to accept that Charles’s approach has failed and isn’t going anywhere?
Just give it up and follow Scott’s advice and start doing something real to try to help.
And brewdude, virtually noneL of the posts here are about moving on to useful solutions. To the extent that any solution-oriented stuff has been posted here, the “solutions” have focused on irrelevant musings about the size, shape, color and language of warning signs.
This makes little sense, given that the Kims ignored a verbal warning in Wilsonville, two printed warnings on their map including one specifically oriented toward their route, four warning signs, the weather and the weather forecasts.
These were not people who were going to heed warning signs. They needed more education. And frankly, even that might not have helped. Statistical analysis will tell you that, no matter what you do, there’ll always be people in the tails of the distribution.
The Kims may well have been destined to ignore every single warning up to and including a neon sign with their name on it.
I did a web search on Mount Peavine, trying see if there was anything interesting to see up this area. In the process I came across a BLM landuse analysis. Brenda might be particularly interested in this.
Click to access WildRogueSoFaroutWA_acc.pdf
Starting about page 60 it looks at roads. Table C1 is a road inventory. This table has road names along with numbers. For example, Wilson Camp (on the wood signs) is 34-9-5. County Line is 34-9-7. 34-8-36 is Galice Access (5 sections). 33-10-22 is Wayout Saddle
paulj
Unfortunately, glenn (406), Mrs. Kim provided answers that were internally contradictory and which varied from testimony offered by others at the Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce. One of those people was interviewed twice, first by the Oregon State Police and then by Det. Michael Weinstein, a Portland police offier whose every word by regarded by you and others on this site as nearly the utterance of God.
Therefore, at this point we do not believe that Mrs. Kim has been completely forthcoming with investigative authorities.
399: What questions have they not answered?
Charles who never taught you that just because you say something doesn’t make it true?
(409) Charles if there was a story there the police would have been all over it! You are just following nonsense and you really are wasting a lot of people’s time for no good reason or intended outcome.
You have but a few supporters here and on your site and you have hundreds if not thousands of people staunchly against your opinions and most certainly your approach – Charles it’s over – your website didn’t work and in fact it crashed and burned so badly you have to come over here – I would be willing to guess there are more posts over here from you alone than the entire sum of posts on your site.
There is the real story – How Charles tried to defame and slander a dead man and failed!
oh yeah…I almost forgot…
Charles also wants to beat up on a widow and make her life even more unbearable!
Yeah Charles your efforts are so noble and you really are a class act – NOT!!!
Charles why don’t you wake up tomorrow and take a good look in the mirror? Do you really like what you see?
CW, thankfully you don’t investigate criminal cases.
To brewdude/Jeff Nelson: Your posts have been restored, and so have your posting privileges. From the start, we’ve struggled with how to moderate our comment boards. We’ve made some mistakes along the way, and deleting your postings was one of them.
I don’t agree with a single thing you wrote, but we shouldn’t have deleted your posts. We’ll edit and/or remove posts that are libelous, incoherent or outrageous, but nothing you wrote fit any of those descriptions. Your posts were merely stupid and irritating, and we allow that.
I’ll get around to responding to you later tonight or tomorrow morning.
glenn (412-3), the site that dare not speak its name has speculated as to why the police have not fully investigated the contradictions in Mrs. Kim’s stories. You might want to have a look. Hell, I sit and listen to FoxNews three or four times a week, and if I can sit still for that crap then you should be able to withstand our crap.
And we have not slandered a dead man. Slander is defamation by means of the spoken word. As for libel, you can’t libel the dead. If I wanted to write that James Kim was a meth-dealing child molester, there isn’t a single thing anyone could do about it by way of court action.
And by the way, I don’t think he was. I used it as an example. I figured I’d better write that, because if I didn’t then you’d accuse me of concocting outrageous lies against the man. The only flaw I see in James Kim is his negligence; I’m sure there were other flaws, an in fact I hope there were. But I don’t know what they were.
Kati’s Dad – I for one, am sorry for engaging CW as much as I have. But here sometimes it seems that these issues are central to differing views in the discussion, and it is still hard sometimes to just let such unjust comments go unanswered.
I await your response with baited breath, maybe this lowly and stupid one will be able to glean some bit of the cosmic truth from one so wise as you…or maybe I will just pass out from holding my breath.
(Sarcasm ray off)
Good night all. it will probably be back to lurking for me. Other people have expressed things using far better and kiinder turns of phrase than I. Sleep well and above all…
do good.
I understand that, in California, some people like to hold their breath until they pass out. Something about seeing God? In any case, I will respond to you on our site. I have a touch of tbhe flu tonight and that’s pretty much kept me from plowing a whole lot of new ground.
This site hasn’t had anything new to discuss for several thousand comments. I could post here from the ICU and not skip a beat.
Oh, and brewdude, you should know by now that “doing good” is not on the agenda here. That’s because doing good, i.e., saving future lives, really does depend on knowing and telling the truth about the events of Nov.25-Dec. 6. That’s not something many people here are prepared to do, even if it means that future travelers might die as a result.
401- p.s.
Jeff Nelson – I really like your “manure” comment, but I think you might be giving it too much credit! 😀
422-
At this point I would say some type of manufactured toxic refuse.
Now that Scott Nelson’s posts have been restored and I have responded to him, I am sure that all of those outraged by our censorship will flock to our website for a lively conversation about Mr. Nelson’s dumb statements.
But I won’t hold my breath. Scott, you can do that. Cowabunga, man.
Brewdude, taxpayers are taxpayers. Do you want to guarantee that no Federal funds were used during this search?
All I can do anymore when I read Snarls is yawn…it’s like a book, movie or tv show you’ve seen so many times it just puts you to sleep. The same blather over and over and over and over again. Tharwood had it right, feeding the trolls is an exercise in futility.
re: 407 Snarly Charlie, Katie’s Dad is so right, this forum has become more about you, and that is so very sad. You are a total distraction to the cause here. It’s my personal observation that as long as you post and get feedback, you’ll be back for more with the same old repetitions, nothing new, nothing substantial to add. We need to post a sign, “Don’t feed the trolls” and eventually you will go away. It comes as no surprise that you have a double standard when it comes to posting here and at your so called forum. That fits perfectly with the character, or lack thereof, you have demonstrated here.
If we can all agree not to engage…
427 – I’m onboard with that ! No more troll feeding for me.
(415) Did you see that Charles actually admitted they have made a lot of mistakes? – like their whole hypothesis.
(416) Charles and that is exactly why you are a bottom feeder you pick on someone that can’t fight back – you are vile and disgusting.
(425) Brenda if you are that upset about taxpayer money then go after somebody worthwhile like Sandy Berger!
Jeff Nelson, thank you. Yesterday was a very bad blog day for Charles.
To Kati’s Dad, I have never met your Daughter, but any friend of my brothers has got to be a good person. You sir, did a fine job as a parent. (and I am teaching right now so I know how many parents are not doing such good work). I apologize for feeding the troll here. Will not do such things any more.
Peace and
Do Good.
Correction to post 424:
Now that Scott Nelson’s posts have been restored …
427- Thank you all, and Gayle, yes I promise, I will not feed the trolls. Last night I was caught by the trolling tractor beam, but that was truly the last time for me! (Last night I even wished that Joe had a permanent reminder sign above the comment box that said “Please remember not to feed the trolls.”) It is hard sometimes. You want to do the right thing.
A man is rich in porportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
– Henry David Thoreau
So, Lisa, if you’re not going to “feed the trolls,” how will you eat?
Just as a follow up to the “don’t feed the trolls” PSA—This litle troll incident has really just served Charles’s purpose. He has probably gotten more attention drawn to his website than in its history just by stirring up trouble over here and insulting family and friends of the Kims. Taking a look at the website, I noticed his pathetic efforts to call over people involved in SAR, which has gotten exactly “0” replies. Most of the posts are simply his own musings, with a couple of posters who just scratch his back and make him feel important. In fact, I’m finding myself coming here and checking in just to see how much of a jerk he can be. I’ve just never seen such bizarre hatred inspired by the tragic death of someone.
If next Saturday is anything like today weather-wise, I’m going to head over to Golden Gate Park with my daughter and pay my anonymous respects to James and his family. And I’m going to do the same by NOT fanning the flames of such hateful person, this CW character.
Good bye, again!
Joy, Yes please go to the Park next Saturday. make a show for common decency and goodness. In my opinion the greatest Danger to America now is not Terror or any of the current buzz words. It is simply the breakdown of common courtesy. Public rudeness is a death knell for a culture, and Public rudness is running rampant in America now. People like those on this list can help change that. I to am feeling a tiny bit less cynical after reading this long blog…
Do Good
and again (hits self in head) Proofread BEFORE you hit send, not after……..
Joy, let’s face it: The pool of people who give a rat’s ass about this has dwindled. This site is down to half a dozen or so, and ours gets just a few as well, although recently we’ve been getting more commenters. We get about 100 to 200 hits a day, some from interesting places. This site doesn’t have a stats meter so it’s hard to say.
As for what people actually think, the only objective data I can cite is that I Love Grant’s Pass forum poll. Of 45 votes, 64% blamed the Kims exclusively. Another 24% said it was mostly their fault. Only 2 people took the position takeb by you, glenn, Joe Duck, Kati’s Dad and the others who formed the consensus here, which is that it was mostly or entirely the government’s fault.
So have fun with the rest of the lotus worshippers. You might as well be in the majority somewhere, and Golden Gate Park is as good a place as any.
Don’t speak for me, Charles. You don’t know where I would’ve voted in that poll.
Ta ta!
When did I ever claim the tragedy was the govenment’s fault or anyone else’s fault for that matter? What a great journalist!
Someone died and three others almost died, Kati’s Dad. It was someone’s fault. Those someones are primarily your son-in-law and your daughter, plus Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton. The consensus here has viciously attacked anyone who says so. I’m reminded of Jack Nicholson’s famous line: [i]You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!
Brewdude-437 I’ve been reading this thing from the start and I think your comment is one of the most insightful in all ten pages. I definitely agree.
“…anyone else’s fault.” Dont’ misconstrue what I wrote. I know where the fault lies: the kids made some bad decisions that led to the tragic outcome.
Someone identifying himself as Scott Nelson Windels, a friend of the Kim family, has organized Internet fundraisers, ostensibly to support the family, pay for the kids’ college educations and to endow a “James Kim Technology Foundation” that will support technology education in the public schools. The website that discusses these things is here:
http://www.jamesandkati.com
Conspicuously absent from the website is any mention of the tax status of the foundation or whatever organization runs the fundraising. This is significant for two reasons. First, a charitable foundation, also known as a 501(c)(3) group for the section of the federal tax law that authorizes them, can qualify for tax-deductible gifts. Charities usually want to organize as 501(c)(3) groups because donors will often adjust their gifts for the tax break.
Secondly, a 501(c)(3) group must have a corporate structure and file a report that is made available to the public. However, such groups cannot be established merely to benefit one person, which might be why the Kim fund-raisers haven’t gone this route. Of course, by not taking that route the organizers also are completely shielded from scrutiny of how they spend the contributions.
For example, there is this event to be held Feb. 17th in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco:
The family and friends of James Kim would like to extend a warm invitation to join us in celebrating and remembering James’s life. This outdoor gathering serves to remind us of the deep ties that bring us together, and honors James’s appreciation for his family, friends, and community.
This will be a family event — bring your kids, bring a picnic, and bring warm clothes. We will be celebrating with DJs, music, and dancing until sunset.
Donations indeed!
Correction to 424/432: Now that Jeff Nelson’s posts have been restored …
By the way, I laughed at Jeff’s post about rudeness. He was rude as hell on our site. It pissed off Dee, and I had to argue with her that rudeness ought not be enough to get you censored.
Rudeness, stupidity, malevolence and obnoxiousness of the kind displayed by Jeff on our site and in his e-mails to me are part of the passing parade. So is hypocrisy, Jeff.
Kati’s Dad, none of us, especially you, ever said it was the fault of the government. That is a pathetic attempt by The Unmentionable One to perpetuate his mythical, ongoing nonsense. As this is Joe’s blog, which he graciously shares with us, it’s even more rude and classless for T.U.O. to come over here and spew his hateful screed.
He who bends the truth to suit his will, has no truth to straighten his mind, and is left at the time with a crooked heart…
– Anonymous
434 & 449 / Quotes: good quotes, very timely & appropriate. Let us all strive to be rich ! 😉
Quotes at 449) said He who bends the truth . . . .
Everybody, here’s your chance to put Charles Wilson in his place once and for all. Many of you have accused Charles of bending the truth, so all you have to do is to show us how he did it. As a self-described Journalist, Charles is honor-bound to acknowledge each and every fact that he has bent and to change his narrative to conform to these newly-corrected facts. Based on what I have read of his writings, I would expect no less.
Because so many of you know that Charles is wrong, please publicly set him straight. You will be doing history a huge favor.
Brenda, the practical reality is that the denizens of this site have had no corrections of any real importance to offer. So they’ve done what truth-evaders always do, from the Bush administration on down: They personally attack the messenger.
What’s falling-down funny about that is that actually seem to think it will discourage me. Talk about getting it wrong! 🙂
Maddy (448), you and the others have made it abundantly clear that you consider it the government’s fault. You’ve concentrated on the SAR failures and the size, shape, color and wording of road signs. You’ve stuck a microscope up to the maps.
All of those things are government, and it’s all you talk about.
Now, Kati’s Dad, I’ve noticed your comment that “the kids made some bad decisions that led to the tragic outcome.” It would seem that we agree it was primarily their own fault. That’s a start, anyway.
Now, perhaps you could tell me what those bad decisions were. I’ve made it abundantly clear what I think they were, but neither you nor your compassionate comrades here have done so.
And when does someone cease being “the kids?” Okay, I know that your daughter is always going to be a “kid” at some level, but come on. She’s 30 years old and her husband was 35 years old. Don’t you think they should be evaluated by the same standards of care and common sense that apply to grown ups, or is adulthood too cruel a concept for you?
453 Charles is there anything that you will not try to put into a destructive negative spin? Have you no decency?
Folks, I’m gleefully thankful that this blog has served to let Charles Wilson expose himself as a creature most foul and secondarily discredit his own website.
Enough said. I think it’s time to end the dialog.
(447) Dee getting upset because someone was rude LMAO!!!
Dee did you forget how rude you have been especially over at MT?
(451) Brenda the only correction that needs to be made is Joe removing Charles from here and that would set the record straight.
(454) Kati’s Dad…I am not going to say – told you so! 🙂
But thanks everyone for playing.
Kati’s Dad at 454) said: Enough said. I think it’s time to end the dialog.
Spin aside, Charles asked a legitimate question: What mistakes do you think that James & Kati made?
I learned early on in this blog to just skip any entry written by or responding to Pac or CW – their often classless comments are not worth reacting to or even acknowledging. It is sad that Kati’s Dad sees junk like that. I’m afraid I must agree that this blog has mostly degenerated into a back-and-forth with CW.
One question for Randy Jones, if he is still around. In (162), you mentioned that you thought James had been chased off of the road by a black bear. You say that black bears are essentially harmless to humans, but then you note that the bear seems to have followed James down the hill. I am a city boy and I know if I saw a black bear coming at me I would run like hell. What would be the recommended course of action should one be approached by a black bear while walking on a wilderness road?
(457) Brenda hard to judge what were innocent mistakes…we weren’t there. The fact is 100’s of people make the same mistakes but fortunately for most they don’t get trapped there…
Obviously the signs are not working and were not working otherwise there is no way John James would not have painted an arrow on the road, etc…
And that is the bottom line about Monday morning quarterbacking we all see everything so crystal clear and can clearly define what we think were mistakes but during the moment it may not have been so black and white and they may not have understood to what depth or even that a mistake was being made.
No one here can actually believe the public education on this topic will have any discernable affect at least in the next 5-10 years. Look how serious HIV is and how long it has taken to get people publically educated about it. That is just a dog that won’t hunt!
People want education then they should learn about survival techniques and take some survival training and then go do some klondike camping or something to really see what it is like. You will be doing yourself and those around you a big favor by having that knowledge first hand.
I also recommend the Survivorman series with Les Stroud – he is excellent and you will learn a lot and in fact he has just finished up Africa and his filming in the Amazon.
He strands himself in a very remote location with basically the only things in his pockets and he has to survive for 5 days. Entertaining and educational. BTW – no camera crew – Les films the entire thing himself as well as surviving – quite a task to say the least.
457: Those of us who are ancient may remember an old Star Trek episode that involved an alien that thrived on animosity and conflict (Day of the Dove). You and Snarls remind so much of that alien, never giving up, never going away, always baiting, always striving to engage someone, ANYONE, in debating your viewpoints. You live only for the conflict, not for any meaningful discourse. Kati’s dad agreed with Snarls many hundreds of posts ago on James & Kati’s culpability, yet Snarls persists in attempting to entice someone, ANYONE, to debate him.
Like that ancient Star Trek episode, nothing good will come of such engagements. Sorry, I and many others refuse to play, and increasingly Snarl’s posts consist of him talking to himself.
458/William C: It depends….if it is a sow with cubs, your best option is probably to freeze or back slowly away. That is one situation where a black bear can be dangerous. If it is a solitary bear, they will generally go away if you stand your ground, yell at it or throw rocks in its general direction. Part of the problem, as I wrote some time back, is many bears in the Rogue wilderness are habituated to humans because of all the rafters and fisherman, whose coolers they attempt to raid. It that bear was habituated, it may not have readily departed, esp if it was hungry. We have had bears lurk outside our river camps all night, never threatening or harming us in any way, but definitely not leaving either….just waiting for our guard to drop so they can come “explore”.
I am not a naturalist, so am far from the definitive source, but have interacted with many black bears over the years in that area.
Here are the recommendations from Oregon wildlife people on dealing with black bears:
Click to access blackbear3.pdf
Backing away slowly and letting the bear pass is usually enough.
At one point in the search Randy landed and checked out some tracks that the other pilot had reported. He determined that they were bear tracks. That is in the Sheriffs report. I also recall mention of bear tracks crossing James’s, so there was speculation that he may have left the road to avoid a bear. But I don’t there was evidence as to whether they saw each other, or whether one had crossed the other’s path a some later time.
As noted in the pdf, bears have a very good sense of smell and hearing. Trying to hide by crossing a small stream or thrashing about in the brush doesn’t make much sense.
paulj
Brenda, they’re not going to answer because they can’t answer, and they know it.
(463) Charles bottom line…none of the people that you claim were negligent were not negligent period. Get over it – there is no smoking gun.
Your big break – you blew it, now you are not going to have the story of 2007!
Maybe Michael Moore can salvage this for you?
Hey glenn, even Kati’s Dad says “the kids” were negligent. Well, he calls it “bad decisions.” I say the same thing with a different word. Get with the program!
463: Snarls: “because they can’t answer…” – wrong again! Choosing to not engage is a choice made not for lack of an intelligent response, but rather because many have concluded it is utter futility. My post 107 summarizes well my thoughts regarding your viewpoints, and 315 my conclusion about the best way to engage you.
Okay, Paul, instead of coming up with any ideas that could actually save lives — something you’re clearly not interested in doing — you and glenn and Kati’s Dad and the rest can keep denying that “the kids” were negligent and you can fritter around with irrelevancies like how a warning sign should be worded or what’s the right way to talk to a black bear.
That’ll do a whole lot for people. Just remember what you contributed the next time someone dies in that spot.
(465) Hey UpChuck once again you distort the TRUTH. Kati’s Dad never said they were NEGLIGENT – YOU GET WITH THE PROGRAM and stop putting words into people’s mouths.
He said they made bad decisions…that is like saying speeding versus reckless endangerment…two completely different worlds.
You are reckless with your comments.
You do realize he is nuts, don’t you? Bona fide. I even showed these threads to my psych. friend just to get his perspective. There isn’t any point. It will just replay over and over.
(469) Didn’t groundhog day just happen? Maybe we are stuck in that loop?
457 -“What mistakes do you think that James & Kati made?”
Why don’t you and The Other go back and reread the 10,000 posts and count the ones that listed things people said the Kims could have done differently? There was a period of time where we talked quite a bit about public service announcements which would discuss preparedness on trips, having enough supplies in case of an emergency, alternate methods of charging cell phones, GPS with breadcrumbs capability, and all the other things that a person could take along to make a trip safer. We also talked about stopping for the night, not taking unfamiliar roads at night with bad weather forecast, etc. But we know that many people would have done exactly the same thing James and Kati did, given the circumstances, and many of us could have ended up in the same boat, if we’re honest enough to say so. Is that the same as saying they made no mistakes? That map experts saw flaws in the map, does that mean James and Kati made no mistakes? The various SAR factions who participated in the rescue and recovery saw protocols that needed strengthening, so are they wrong, too?
Have you folks not read the site, or do you and Snarly Charlie just want to bait and switch back to the tired, one-note rhetoric? Since we discussed our first impressions and did our Monday Morning quarterbacking early on, we’ve learned from those who participated, and moved on to other areas that have been highlighted by this incident. That you seemingly condone the sick ripping and tearing at the survivors and their family/friends like a vulture is amazing.
Those who drink the Kool Aid offered by The Other Site are free to go hang there and become enlightened by the Guru.
It’s not only all the truly unsubstantiated “facts”, theories, and accusations, i.e. Chamber of Commerce sitings, wine libation, time scenarios, etc. that there have been all along…
It’s not just all the cheap tactics to try to give the impression that he’s winning any sort of “argument”, i.e. that we have come up with no ideas that could help save lives, that we don’t care about saving lives, just because we don’t agree with his agenda.
It is the pathology of it all that is so disturbing. It truly seems there is something seriously wrong here. Something really deranged.
And I am not engaging – I am talking 3rd person, and I will not persist – no matter the baiting; the ugliness of manner and accusation.
It’s not at all just about the ridiculous narrative, it’s really the whole picture. It’s very warped, in virtually every post.
That’s right Kati’s Dad, it’s a “destructive negative spin” on almost everything…
It does need to be addressed for what it really is…
And I think it just makes us all the more thankful that we don’t live in such a world…
Madeline at 471) said: Why don’t you and The Other go back and reread the 10,000 posts . . . .
I have read each and every post on this board since Page 1.
If you can answer the question without insults, please do so.
Hey Lisa, I thought you weren’t going to respond. That particular New Year’s resolution didn’t last too long, huh? Your claim to not be engaging is, well, maybe you should show it to Joy’s psychiatrist.
Madeline, in 10,000 posts you people have done nothing, and I do mean nothing. This is because you simply refuse to acknowledge the central truth here. Even Kati’s Dad finally admitted it: This was his daughter and son-in-law’s own fault. That’s where any solution has to start.
Why is that so hard for you people to accept?
471/Madeleine – they’ve read the site, it’s not lack of knowledge with the site, it’s exactly what you say it is – “or do you and Snarly Charlie just want to bait and switch back to the tired, one-note rhetoric?”
That is ALL they are interested in. Period. As much as they say otherwise, their history on this site clearly proves otherwise.
I agree with Lisa, there is something quite deranged about it.
And yes, I am indeed thankful I don’t live in such a world.
474/ HEY SNARLS – I THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO LEAVE ?!?!?!?!?!? I believe you’ve made that particulary claim at LEAST a half dozen times. Before you go ripping into others for allegedly not sticking to their word, why don’t you stick to yours ??
That you and Brenda are the ONLY two people who have threatened to sue people over their posts speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
..and over, and over, and over.
Pathology can be insistent…
– Gee, I don’t know
Paul, “the kind of person” I am is one who tells the truth. The kind you are is someone who, when presented with truth that he finds inconvenient yet irreffutable, launches vicious personal attacks on the person who tells it. Oh well, at least I know that you, Joy, glenn, Joe Duck, Kati’s Dad and the other stragglers here are in a tiny minority of people who think that “the kids” are blameless.
Or at least, if they can be blamed, are too fragile to have the blame spelled out. In particular, when I see Kati’s Dad’s postings, it doesn’t really surprise me that his daughter gave versions to the investigators that are internally contradictory and that contradict reliable testimony from others.
When questioned by a reporter, Kati’s Dad’s daughter yelled at the reporter rather than answer questions. And, at Christmas time, his daughter seems to have been kicked out of her in-laws’ home, and is now relying on the unaudited contributions of some guy who is running Internet auctions on her behalf.
Oddly enough, Kati’s Dad is a doctor. Of all people, he should understand the value of facts in an emotion-driven world. But apparently not, because when asked simple questions of facts he hurls personal abuse, too. It would seem that the acorn didn’t fall too far from that particular tree, did it?
Sigh… what have we learned about feeding trolls?
There is one well established way to deal with a troll. It requires some patience and self-control, but it’s not unlike the methods one uses to deal with a bear. Stop feeding it.
What’s even worse about this is that, given the attention this tragedy got, a true and ethical response by Kati and her father and her friends really could save lives in future. Instead, they have bobbed and weaved and prevaricated and dodged. The opportunity is lost, and people will die needlessly as a result.
Enjoy the memorial service for “the kids” next weekend. After all, the whole point is to gather and sing songs about I-Pods, right? If you want to know why so many people look at California and shake their heads, take a good look at yourselves, valuing your emotional comfort over the lives of others.
At least the Romans were honest about their hedonism. They didn’t do the fake “compassion” thing like you people are doing.
You’re right, Tommo. And I promised I wouldn’t. Ok, done.
Don’t waste yourself in rejection, nor bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good.
– Ralph Waldo Emerson
Hard to do yes, but highly recommendable…
That’s right, Joy, move along and play your games. We know that the lives of others mean absolutely nothing to you.
“…people will die needlessly as a result.” ???? What is the bear talking about?
Ok, ok, I promised. Never mind.
Joy, by evading the truth here, which is that Kati and James Kim’s negligence got him killed and almost got her and their kids killed, you and the rest of your “compassionate” friends are ignoring the only practical solution: Public education against thoughtlessness and negligence by travelers.
It’s not about warning signs, maps or bears or new technology. It is about people heeding warnings and using common sense. When you refuse to see it, you become part of the problem. Something else: Tell your friend Kati Kim to come clean about Nov. 25th.
While I’m [virtually] here: greetings to all those still present. The search for Jim Gray has been, sadly, fruitless, but in this mere couple of months the state of the “participatory SAR” art has advanced amazingly. Check the DangerData site for a number of links to the search effort.
And if you want to get out there and help people who truly need your help: http://givelife.org
Kati’s Dad and family: you and yours remain in my thoughts and prayers.
Be excellent to each other!
Notice that all this talk of Internet-aided SAR hasn’t done squat for that guy. So much for technology.
Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind.
– Shakespeare
480/Tommo: thank you for your timely reminder.
487/ Tommo – thanks for the reminder on Jim Gray and the DangerData blog. While others may comment that the Internet SAR efforts haven’t found Jim – I would certainly note that it is *guaranteed* to be helping the family and friends of Jim keep their hopes up and keep going strong. That in and of itself is a great thing. It’s really hard when in the middle of a search effort to keep your hope up and keep putting energy into the search. Thoughts, prayers and support from others go a long way to helping sustain the spirit of those who aren’t lost – but still need some help in keeping hope going. Hoping Jim will be found so that the family can be at peace.
To bad WP doesn’t have selective user comment filtering. Would be a lot easier for the faint of hand to keep from indulging in feeding time.
Hey Scott, how much money have you raised and how have you spent it? Who’s paying for the party?
And Scott, is the Silicon Valley solution to inconvenient facts and tough questions to construct an electronic filter? Maybe you should take that idea to a venture capitalist. See if you can get them to fund Potemkin Village.com
492/Slightly less than the number here – http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ but a little bit more than the cost of a cup of coffee.
It’s nice to have an unaccountable slush fund, isn’t it?
A Mail Tribune article on an area SAR task force meeting.
“Search and rescue teams from Southern Oregon and Northern California met Thursday for the first time in an attempt to improve communication and share resources for future missions.”
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0211/local/stories/sheriff_rescue_team.htm
paulj
And what does that have to do with the Kim tragedy, paulj? Nothing is the answer, because it wasn’t SAR disorganization that got James Kim killed.
496/paulj – That’s great to see that. We were concerned during the search when we were sending volunteers into CA on 199 that the CA counties weren’t necessarily involved because of the divide between OR/CA authorities coordinating. There didn’t seem to be much activity in the two NorCal counties where they possibly could have been had then gone down 199 trying to go back up to Crescent City.
This kind of interstate coordination can only help improve things for future disasters – especially for that area which could see a Tsunami or Earthquake hit the interstate region there. It seems in the SAR world it’s the inter-county interaction that is really important (after reading up on the success of Bay Area SAR efforts in the Berkeley fires, successful in part to efforts to get more inter-county communication normalized and defined), breaking down the state line seems like a good idea for those counties.
It’s great to see people who did an excellent job in their efforts – trying to make themselves even better at what they do. After realizing that many SAR personnel are volunteers I’ve been even more impressed with the efforts I’ve read about in the past few years to keep improving their field.
Fortunately we live in a free country and if people want to donate to others for whatever reason, they can. And if not, then they don’t have to. (Except when it comes to taxes, and our share of the debt we’re paying beyond our control was nicely shared by Scott, thanks for the link.)
A Mail Tribune article on the search for lost hiker from Ashland.
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0206/local/stories/hikerfound.htm
He started in one watershed (Ashland) ended up in another (Applegate). It’s another example of the difficulty of predicting where a SAR victim might be found.
paulj
Excuse me Scott, but your search efforts were a complete waste of time. I’m sure they made you feel good, but they added nothing.
fools gold – I noted that the RescueWiki site at http://www.rescuewiki.com/ has started to add some information. Just checked in on it and they’re starting to build out some content and links.
Regarding the relevance of the Kim case to regional SAR coordination, I will refer you to the summary in Part II of the sheriffs report. Most SAR missions are relatively local, such the two recent ones in the Mt Ashland area. The Kim case, because it involved a car, covered a much larger area, and involved agencies at the state level as well as several counties. Even when it focused on Josephine County, SAR groups from neighboring counties were involved. The case demonstrated the value of cooperation, and the need for improved cooperation.
Oregonlive reports that there was 4.5 quake offshore from Coos County. A larger one could cause quite a bit of damage along the Oregon coast. Crescent City in nearby California was devastated in the 1965 Alaska quake. Cooperating SAR groups in the area could be valuable first responders in such an event. This will be increasingly important if individual counties have to cut their budgets due to the lost of federal funds.
paulj
Just in case anyone thought that James passing didn’t already have an educational effect on people, here are a couple of excerpts from people who have emailed in to the website. Found them interesting as typically most people won’t take action with something like disaster prep or survival training until something hits them emotionally.
“ps. I was driving home when I heard of Mr. Kim’s fate .It felt like someone kicked me in the stomach.When I got home and put the baby down for a nap, I immediately stocked my car with emergency supplies , blankets, food,water, etc.
I grew up in Monterey and lived in San Jose and had never prepared for any emergencies despite living in earthquake country. Your experience will help people in ways not known to you yet. ”
“Your Husband, Son, Father, Friend, Loved One, did NOT die in vain. People everywhere will now be cognizant of survival skills and supplies. I’ve traveled the Southern Oregon area by car and had never given such things a second thought, but now I surely will, and so will countless others.”
“The news of his passing has made me very sad today. For what little it is worth I thought I would share some good that has come out of all this. Since moving to Ohio from California last year to get married myself, my wife had taken all of the emergency supplies out of the trunk and placed them in the garage. Being a backpacker I always kept some water, food, and first-aid supplies handy but she never saw the importance of it and prefered the extra trunk-space.
Now, as the snow is just beginning to fall here in Canton, I told my wife that I am putting the supplies back in the car and getting some additional supplies for our van as well… and she agreed. She could tell I was upset at the news today and I think a little light went on for her that a little trunk-space, just a small backpack-sized space, is a small sacrifice to save a family.”
“In the past I have dismissed my husband’s requests for me to carry emergency supplies such as blankets and food in my car. We live in a very snowy climate and from now on, I will be more prepared.”
It is encouraging to read that some people are packing survival gear into some nooks and crannies of their car trunks. It doesn’t take much space and the cost in gasoline to lug it around with you is less than the cost of using up some pen and paper to calculate it. Much of the gear people use consists of items that otherwise might be in the donate or discard piles anyway. Some drivers buy sacks of cat litter for winter-driving ballast and if they get through the winter without mishap, they simply use up the cat litter in the normal fashion. Many survival ration kits could be assembled from cans already in the home and in the far reaches of the pantry due to their status as less than favorite food items.
Has anyone thought of making survival pacs and map reading a part of the standard Drivers Education package at the high Schoiol level. I mean instead of creating a whole new sstem of PSAs why not start with the Youth. Maybe the resident movie reviewer can take this idea and run with it.
School even, first cuppa today has yet to kick in
A more likely approach might be to have auto parts stores sell a unified toolkit/survial kit. A tire inflator/power supply, set of tools, tow rope, chains, tarp, spare fuses, spare hoses, etc. sold in a box that had additional items such as first aid kit, emergency rations, socks, gloves, etc. just might be a sensible product to market.
Thoughts, prayers and support from others go a long way to helping sustain the spirit of those who aren’t lost
Very nice point Scott. Tragedy can bring people together in very good ways with very positive unintended consequences. A broad focus is important, especially because the Kim story touched *millions* of people around the world.
Wow Scott –
the Rescue Wiki looks really promising. I had not seen this until you noted it above:
http://www.rescuewiki.com
Seems to me that a tipping point for online SAR support may be near and it would involve strategies like the flyers and info you put out online during the Kim search and the mapping work used in the Jim Gray search, where you enlist a huge number of remote “helpers” who can do simple tasks so SAR people can concentrate on the physical aspects of the search.
510/Joe the thing that probably would have helped us, help the authorities the most was an online (or even downloadable) tool which would help track data about tip and information canvassing. Basically an easy way for people to report where they interviewed and flyered – and for a family command post to track that information. In our case, we could tell we were covering more ground than the authorities, because we kept running into businesses that didn’t know about the case (even into the weekend). We were trying to track things as best we could, but we weren’t tracking at the specific business/stop level (like we didn’t track which rest stops had been flyered). With more resources or better tools – it would have been great to have a printed lists of stops for volunteers (each morning).
(511) Scott thanks for the post that is definitely something we are trying to address with a database that is currently in its early stages…
RE: 487 / TOMMO: I am going to harp on this because I have been a donor for most of my life and am always stunned & disappointed at how many people do NOT donate (blood). I’m not talking about the legitimate excuses; there are many who cannot give, I am talking about healthy folks who can but CHOOSE not to. “Approximately 60% of the U.S. population is eligible to give blood — only 5% do in a given year.” – American Red Cross. As a country, we should be embarrased by this statistic. It is inexcusable and pathetic that just 1 in 12 donate !!
THIS SAVES LIVES and is a critical ongoing need. How many things can you do on a regular basis that can make that kind of a difference ?? The Red Cross routinely experiences shortages of all blood types. Accident victims, premature infants, organ transplants, routine surgeries, cancer victims – these are all situations where donated blood makes the difference between life and death.
If you want to make a real difference, one that could save someones life, become a donor. “One donation can help save the lives of up to 3 people.” – American Red Cross. If reading this makes you feel guilty or uncomfortable don’t just sit there squirming in your chair, do something about it!! – pick up the phone and make an appointment with the Red Cross.
we kept running into businesses that didn’t know about the case (even into the weekend)
Scott that is excellent info, and I’m glad Glenn tuned into that post. In a lot of these cases it seems like simply having an online Google/Yahoo map with pushpins with notes that anybody could edit would help process leads and make it easier to spread that info quickly. Sure there would be some bad tips, but others could follow up with their own comments.
In many (most?) missing person cases confidentiality will be an issue here as we learned with the search for the Stanford Student. Somebody from this blog had contacted the dad and he was (understandably) reluctant to release info to unknown folks.
However in most SAR I think confidentiality is not a key factor while quickly spreading the word is very difficult, especially in low profile cases.
Scott I think a key question is whether the focus should be on *spreading the word* or with *organizing search information*. Probably both, which would suggest the kind of two pronged online approach we’ve been brainstorming where a database and a blog work together.
Given the media interest it is remarkable how long it took the word to spread about the Kims, and also unnecessary since email alerts could be going out to all agencies in cases like this. Glenn – there’s a good feature for the database=email address of all agencies via zip code. We could then set up a simple email alert by zip code or county.
I remember calling the USFS Ranger Districts that oversee Bear Camp area and neither had head about them – I think that was on Friday.
Mr. Windels (#504), you of course realize that the examples you pointed out are of people who, seeing a couple’s negligence, have vowed not to make the same stupid mistakes they made. Imagine what might happen if Kati Kim were to appear in PSAs as part of a public education program.
That’s what our website has been suggesting. It’s good to see that you understand the public impact of the Kims as an example of how NOT to do things on the road.
(516) Volleyball he really should have left you on that island!!!
Tommo and Paul – good links and feel free to harp on these good causes all you like here. At DangerData I’d like to create a section that highlights how people can help *without* getting directly involved in things. Blood donations to Red Cross and donations to charity are great examples of that.
As Scott pointed out earlier, the goal can be much broader than just finding an individual, it can be helping us all to find … each other [insert violin valentine music here].
(518) I think another aspect that seems to be missing from some of the discussions is the value of the collected data for future SAR missions.
History has a tendency to repeat itself, plus with good data mashed together with maps and push pins, travelers can read about the potential perils on their intended path and hopefully will take the necessary precautions.
“A tire inflator/power supply, set of tools, tow rope, chains, tarp, spare fuses, spare hoses, etc. sold in a box that had additional items such as first aid kit, emergency rations, socks, gloves, etc.”
Chains – tow chain or tire chains? Tire chains come in different sizes to fit different tires.
Hoses will also be car specific.
Some cars come with a few spare fuses in the fuse box. Assortments of replacements are sold in these stores, but it helps to know what type your car uses.
Air compressors, especially if they include a battery, are heavy, and need to be stowed safely. Inexpensive compressors are enough for adjusting tire pressure (an important function), but too slow for filling a flat. Faster compressors can draw enough power to blow fuses.
You forgot the jumper cables. 🙂 And the window breaking hammer 🙂 Reflective triangle or flares.
A problem with a comprehensive kit is that it can be bulky, heavy, and expensive. This would limit the market and use.
There are about a dozen emergency road kits on this page from Canadian Tire (a major Canadian auto supply and hardware chain):
http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/subcategory_landing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396672434&bmUID=1171307472040
paulj
Want to save lives? Consider this:
I don’t buy Mrs. Kim’s story about missing Hwy. 42 by mistake. I really think they sealed their fate when, upon stopping for gas at about 6 p.m. in Halsey, Ore. (between Corvalis and Eugene), they reconfirmed their reservation in Gold Beach.
She had gone to school in Oregon and had been to the coast, so she had to have known that Gold Beach was a long haul from Halsey. I think they had decided against using either Hwy. 38 about 20 miles south of Eugene, or Hwy. 42 just south of Roseburg, in favor of the Forest Service “shortcut.” I think they made that decision knowing that they’d been warned not to go that way. I think they purposely stayed on the Forest Service road in the snow and against the warnings of signs and their map.
Why take the “shortcut” that wasn’t really a shortcut? Because they were in a hurry, and because they had a prepaid reservation at that luxury hotel near Gold Beach with the two-week cancellation policy. And because Mrs. Kim had taken the back roads between Eugene and Florence in the past, she probably figured that the Forest Service road from Merlin would be no big deal — even though they’d been specifically warned against it when they stopped in Wilsonville.
If you think about all of that, you can begin to understand why Mrs. Kim might have lied to the investigators afterwards. How would it look if she described the decision-making process I’ve just suggested? And then there’s that three-hour gap. If they’d filled that with a winery tour, there’d have been all the more reason to lie. One way or the other, I don’t believe Mrs. Kim was completely forthcoming in her interviews with investigators.
What’s especially unfortunate here is that, due to all the media coverage of the tragedy, Kati Kim had a real opportunity to make some good stuff come out of this. If she’d just been candid about their errors, it would have helped educate the public about the danger of bad decision making while traveling. Someone else in the future might have not made similar errors in judgment if Mrs. Kim would have been more forthcoming.
Thus, by not laying her cards face up on the table, Kati Kim might wind up getting a future traveler killed. Not actively, but by omission. There’s a lesson to be learned here, and it could be useful in a public education effort. But unless Mrs. Kim acknowledges their errors, they can’t be used in such an effort. Iddeally, she’d appear in the Public Service Announcements about using good judgment while traveling.
It would be emotionally difficult, but it would save lives. I consider it a test of her character.
missing from some of the discussions is the value of the collected data for future SAR missions.
History has a tendency to repeat itself
Yes Glenn, excellent points. Identifying trouble spots is done by some DOTs but this info often does not make it into the public view. Clearly, simply pulling a lot of danger points into better public view is going to help with routes and decisions.
Now, Kati’s Dad, you’ve acknowledged that “the kids made some bad decisions that led to the tragic outcome.” In your heart of hearts, you know that we’re right.
The speculaion about what they did for that missing three hours is a tidbit that doesn’t really matter. What counts is that your daughter and your late son-in-law ignored a series of clear warnings.
What also counts is that your daughter hasn’t come clean about it. Her stories to investigators simply don’t hang together, and you know it.
So this is also a character test for you. Unlike me, you can influence your daughter. Tell her to make a clean break and tell the truth, and to participate in a public education program that would almost certainly save lives in the future.
Hate me all you want. I really don’t care. This isn’t high school and I’m not running for prom king. Lives are at stake, and that’s when people show their true colors. What are yours?
Charles it is SO hard to know how to handle your inappropriate insinuations and the interrogation style, especially when you try to bait Kati’s dad, Scott, and others here. You remain obsessed with trivial inconsistencies when the big story is largely quite clear at this point.
Many here think I should delete your stuff for being mean-spirited and repetitive but that’s too much censorship for me, and I know that Kati’s dad and Scott can handle the taunts although you really should be ashamed of yourself for what amount to attacks on the character of people who are clearly of the highest caliber.
In the interest of avoiding you dominating the conversation here with offensive taunts I’m reserving my right to delete or edit your comments at my discretion.
Also, given your earlier threats of possible legal actions I’m going to stipulate that if you keep posting here you explicitly are agreeing that you will *under no circumstances whatsoever* bring a legal action against any commenter at this site.
If you can’t agree to this feel free to make a final post, but don’t return. If you can, fine, stay.
Frankly, I’m wondering if you have a hidden agenda here of inciting comments you’ll label as libelous and then sue over. That has a chilling effect on the conversation and it also just pisses me off as a free speech advocate.
If you or anyone else libels me, I’ll feel free to seek appropriate remedies. The same applies in reverse.
post 481 might have some Libel in it. someone is making accusations of lying that they cannot prove.
Other than that and other posts this has been a great site.
Um, folks, even mentioning lawsuits within 50,000 meters of a troll is kinda like the old “Andromeda Strain” plot twist where the good but misguided Rocket Scientists was gonna nuke the eeevil Bugs from Outer Space… which of course would put them mean ol’ bugzos in high hog heaven.
Just ignore anyone you think is a troll. It will take a little while, but trolls will go away if they don’t get fed. They tend to kick up a little fuss first, but that’s part of the process.
525/Snarls: You just made my day. That you would waste your time and money in a futile attempt to sue someone over a blog posting is hilarious and the first thing you’ve said in weeks that has made me smile. How does one libel an alias anyway…never mind, I don’t really care. I can envision the response of an infuriated judge to such a trivial waste of the legal systems time – “Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?!?!”
I can suggest an alternative – call the Red Cross and donate a few units. Save a life or three.
Charles the problem is that libel is often a subjective thing, determined in expensive court cases. Also it’s clear to me you see libel where I see none. Much earlier here you suggested it was libel when somebody said your site “stole” some content.
First, it was obvious that they were using the term, as is common online, to mean “use content of others without their explicit permission”. It does appear that was done at your site. For example did you get permission for the copyrighted graphic posted here? http://kimtragedy.info/sfgateroute.jpg
Also several other pictures are in use where no permission was granted. Attribution is *not* permission.
So you can see my problem here. If somebody says you stole that content you’ll say they are libeling you, yet a more reasoned analysis would suggest they are just annoyed.
So, again to make this very clear: If you keep posting here I will assume that you explicitly agree that under no circumstances will commenters be sued for anything they say about you or your website.
Tharwood – you are wise beyond our years.
As my old man the lawyer told me: it is not easy, fun, or inexpensive to plead or defend a civil action. I’m sure he’d double or maybe even triple down on that for squabbles that originated on the comments page of a blog.
And HEY, Joe! I’m older than you! 😛
Funny, I thought I would’ve caught up to you by now …
There was another Oregon SAR mission last fall that last as long as the Kim one, and involved a similar number of volunteers, that of the 8 yr old boy lost at Crater Lake. There are a number of articles on the crate lake news site about this case.
Also one attributed to AP that compares this mission, the Kim case, and the Mt Hood climbers. Curiously that article praised the organization of New Mexico SAR, right at the time that a NM mission was called off.
http://www.craterlakeinstitute.com/crater-lake-news/index-crater-lake-news.htm
paulj
paulj I also found it interesting that after a lot of praise for the state based NM model of SAR, New Mexico had what seemed to be a good example of calling off a search too early and too short.
Part of the problem here is that the issues of time and cost don’t seem to be addressed very directly by SAR organizations, perhaps due to liability issues. Frankly, you need to call off searches at some point, but I doubt there is a good formula for when search returns diminish to near zero.
Whatever ‘diminishing returns’ point is selected and whatever ‘safety to searchers’ point is selected, the best way to get a return on the invested time, energy, etc. is to standardize the information capture and analysis.
Reports as to which freeway rest stops, which businesses, which block, etc. have flyers might not be as critical as a form for ‘road completely searched’ versus ‘road searched as far as available snow permitted a snowmobile to travel’ but such standarization can help.
Upthread someone mentioned pushpins and mapping software. Ofcourse equipment varies but I’ve found that such maps load very slowly and are frustrating and would probably lead to volunteers not using them or wasting time with them.
A simple text reporting form that was filled out and sent to headquarters to update the map might work better and faster and more reliably. Unless ofcourse volunteers are going to all have the latest and greatest laptops as well all the latest and greatest radios and cameras and … well, you get the idea. Building a system that captures the text of the business name, type and location and action (flyer posted, exterior sign posted, etc.) might be better than building some slow and annoying mapping system that you expect the volunteers to be able to use.
What would have helped in the various recent searches?
A stack of pre-printed posters for exterior signboards as well as the usual flyers? In the Gray search they are recruiting language specialists for flyer translations. In the David Boone search it may becoming more of an investigative case than a search. Its hard to know what sort of ‘stuff’ will be needed, but the one thing that appears vital will be better communication of information and that means avoiding bottlenecks such as conflicting graphics locations and electronic pushpins that often overlap each other too much to be of any use.
Having a history of which particular edition of a flyer was posted and where it was posted can help in taking them down or revising them when additions and corrections are needed. Nothing destroys a flyer’s effect more than these six month old flyers for missing persons when the local papers have been chock full of headlines about their having already been found long ago.
Think too of the ‘sail number revision’ in the Gray search. Once posters/flyers are up, you have to have already captured the ‘revision number’ and also the exact location.
The processing of reams of simple data will speed up the process but make the eventual decision as to ‘dimishing returns’ no less difficult to deal with.
OK, this is my first post in here and its probably far from perfect. After wading thru a great many posts to get to the end I decided to post. Im an Australian that had heard of this initially while the SAR was happening from a friend of the Kims. We have a lot of SAR operations mounted out here to find lost persons in our remote areas, be it the deserts of Western Australia or the other more tropical areas. We also have a lot of people taken by crocodiles in the northern regions, once again necessitating search operations. The bush is a very easy place to come a cropper in, doesnt matter how many signs are placed, people still get lost or taken by crocs. Unfortunately a lot of croc attack victims are tourists, as are most of the lost ones. It really does no one any good saying such and such is at fault, or things should be done this way. Most croc victims dont seem to read the warning signs if there, or seem to think its a safe place to swim because the crocs are saltwater crocs and the pool/lake/river is freshwater. Totally wrong. But what to do about it, put signs every 50m of every watercourse…..just not possible. A lot of times it comes down to common sense and knowledge of the environment you are in. Put a stranger in an environment they arent familiar with and couple it with the risk of death, bad combination and deaths do occur. Same with being lost in the bush, a common thing here. People decide to go look for help, very similar to what happened to the Kims I think. Not a good idea in the bush to leave your vehicle. At least the vehicle offers some safety and shade and is a bigger target for SAR to find. I would assume the same applies in the USA. The fact is though, people do make mistakes in judgement, very often. Seems to me that there are people on here willing to point the finger of blame rather than face the fact that we are human, not perfect or infallible, we make mistakes. Im sure CW, you have made a few in your time. Or are you indeed that rarest of things, a perfect human? I think not, which leads me to my next question.
What would you have done in those same circumstances as the Kims were in? Before you answer that, let me further go on to ask, have you ever been in that situation and how did you react then. If you have been in that situation, then why are you commenting here, you should damn well be able to sympathise with the Kims. If you havent been in that situation before, how the hell do you know how you are going to react once panic sets in, dehydration, hunger, a sense of futility and desperation, tiredness, and then to top it off, have your family right next to you while you go thru this. Watch your wife and children panic right next to you. Dont come up with some thesis on how you would like to believe you would act, because its not gonna happen that way. As for being a journo, I think you have exercised your right of journalistic response to the point whereby now its not really being constructive to this blog, and you are hellbent on imposing your opinion on as many people as you like to believe want to hear it.
I usually dont write this much in one hit, but I am incensed at the “finger pointing of blame”, it achieves nothing, helps no one and just generally, ticks me off.
There is no magic fix for these situations, thats why we have SAR. If no one got lost we wouldnt need them.
Can anyone say they have never taken a short cut to save time? And have you then got lost. I have, but I have been lucky enough to not pay the ultimate price.
I would also like to forward my condolences to the Kims for your loss.
Though to be fair to CW, most of decisions that he faults led up to their getting stranded. They were, if effect, ignoring the croc signs, both written and physical. He has said little about their efforts to survive. I suspect that even individuals who strongly advocate staying with the car, grudgingly accept that James may have done a good thing in walking out for help. Why he left the road and headed down the drainage will remain a mystery.
Maps, road signs, and the roads themselves, might be improved. But this Kim case provides only one ambiguous data point about what needs to be done. I can’t imagine anyone setting up a checkpoint inside the BLM maze, and quizzing every wayward traveller about what signs they ignored or misinterpreted. Plus there are many other roads and junctions where a determined but unwary traveller could get lost.
SAR efforts could be improved, but again, this is only one case, and a relatively unusual one at that. Many more cases involve hikers, skiers, children, and snowmobilers, with an initial search radius of a few tens of miles or less. The Kim case started out as missing persons case, where credit card searches, flyers, phone and internet tip lines are potentially useful.
I suspect that SAR professionals, and volunteers, have discussed extensively (among themselves, and in print) search strategies, including the question of when to call off a search. Prior to even considering calling off a search, they have been thinking about where to search, what search tools to use, and what to look for. Initially in the Kim case, the search was for a car, which may be on road, or over the side. Latter it was a search for a man who was seeking help for his family. In the Crater Lake case, the search was for a boy, who may have been hiding, either in play or fear. In New Mexico it was a search for a woman, one was known to be a ‘free spirit’.
paulj
January 16, 2007… Internet elsewhere.
“I’d add that my criticism of the Kims’ behavior is almost, if not totally, aimed at the negligence that got them to the spot where they became stranded early in the morning on Sunday, Nov. 26. Once they were there, it seems to me that they did pretty much everything they could do. Maybe not perfect, but for people untrained in backwoods survival it seems to me that they were careful and prudent.” CW
(539) You’re right paulj, he compliments their actions, once stuck.
525. “If you or anyone else libels me, I’ll feel free to seek appropriate remedies. The same applies in reverse.
Comment by Charles Wilson | February 12, 2007”
Charles Wilson is a child-molesting, heroin-shooting cannibal who beats elderly women and steals from babies and blind beggars. And he also picks his nose. Remedy that, jerk.
Sorry, Joe, but my eyes didn’t skip over that entry fast enough.
And thanks for the responses on black bears, all. I guess we will never know if a bear forced James from the road.
541/William C: 😛 😛 😛 – I’m sorry, I’m just in stitches, thank you, I needed a good laugh over the topic in question.
542/William C: Re: Bears – I think it’s a very reasonable theory that a bear could have sent him down that drainage. The later in Fall in gets, the more ornery and hungry they are, thus more likely to not readily flee. We had a bear keep us up half the night in late Fall one year on a Rogue float. Despite banging pans, throwing rocks, yelling and screaming, he just sat on the hillside staring at our coolers, waiting for us to go back to sleep.
I’m sure hunger and thirst may have been clouding his judgement by then, but suspect his body temp would still have been ok. He was on the road, the weather that day was reasonable so he was dry. I don’t think hypothermia became an issue until he got into the drainage and got wet.
543/Epilogue: In the end, sleep won out over exhaustion; the bear trashed our coolers & got well fed…but he left us just enough for breakfast….and they don’t like coffee which is a definite plus.
Aussies: I don’t think someone getting stranded or lost in the wilds of Australia ever calls for restrictive responses such as permits, closings of gates, etc. For that reason, I would assume that Australians are less burdened with these constant ‘its his own fault’ posters since there is no rabid fear of recreational land becoming off-limits.
I believe the bear tracks are the closest proof there will ever be to support the determination that entry into the drainage area and departure from the road was motivated by an impending encounter with a black bear.
Staying with the vehicle was right and they probably knew it. They also knew their resources were dwindling and that the kids were still cold, hungry and crying. Perhaps ear plugs would have given him one more day?
(543) The drainage area was a lot colder as well especially at night.
William C: Good thing I wasn’t drinking coffee this a.m. when I saw your post! Would have cost me another keyboard.
Re: Bears: Ironically, an injured/treated bear was released on Bear Camp Road on 12/5, by a wildlife rehab. place in Grant’s Pass. The Oregon Dept. of Fish and Wildlife wasn’t aware of it until after it was released, as they always tag sick bears so hunters are aware of the tainted meat from medications for 30 days. This bear ws 8 miles up Bear Creek Rd. from the Galice side, but it got me wondering how far they range. The article posted here said 10 – 100 miles, but over what period of time?
A sick/injured bear might have been the exception to the rule of how to behave in the company of black bears, as well. I obviously don’t think this bear was anywhere near the Kims, it just made me wonder about bears in general.
As a side note, many years ago, we rented out a motorhome we had through an agent, and after it was returned from a trip to Oregon, we went over to inspect it. Our Norwegian Elkhound bounded from the car and went nuts inside the motorhome. Turns out the renters had brought back a bear they shot in Oregon in our shower! No amount of disinfectant would totally remove the lingering smell, which we couldn’t detect but the dog could. That put the skids on any future rental ideas.
If you consider the map pieces and clothing placed in BWC drainage as purposeful, then these route markers were probably left by a determined person still in possession of all his faculties. He left the car thinking Galice was only 4 miles away. RJ writes JK entered the drainage 12 miles by road from the car. He could just as well have purposefully entered Big Windy watershed to have access to liquid water for re-hydration as he traded his road route for a bushwhacking short cut, following his incorrect perception of the location of Galice. Bear or no bear, he may have planned to head south from the car then east to intercept roads and reach Galice, which he thought was ahead of him. Definitely a valiant effort applied in a wrong extremely rough location. A bear, if present, could have motivated him to do what he was going to do anyway, at some point head east, only sooner.
(547) The bear was released on 12/2, Saturday, because the rehab place couldn’t get in touch with ODFW on the weekend, they’re not open. Rehab didn’t have room for the bear and made the decision to release it. Habituation to people isn’t good for bears to be released, so what’s best for the bear was the deciding factor. Logical thoughtful decision made, not mindless bureaucracy or unwavering policy in action. Bear was tranquilized in Grants Pass, treated for a small abscess, and released up Galice Creek. Worst thing for the bear was she was now in unfamiliar territory perhaps occupied and claimed by an unsympathetic bear. Potential conflict. At least reason for a mad dash by the new transplant.
Charles Wilson is a child-molesting, heroin-shooting cannibal who beats elderly women and steals from babies and blind beggars. And he also picks his nose.
I do not pick my nose. Consider yourself warned. 🙂
Now, to #538.
Of course I’ve made mistakes on the road. Contrary to what the consensus here constantly says, my purpose in highlighting the Kims’ mistakes isn’t to condemn them for making them, but as an essential element of analyzing the tragedy.
Why analyze the tragedy? Because it has gotten a lot of attention, it’s possible lessons from this bad outcome could be used to save lives in the future. But only if the right lessons are drawn. You can’t draw the right lessons if you insist on omitting the truth, which is that it was caused primarily by the Kims’ misjudgments.
The consensus here seeks to focus exclusively on governmental actions, i.e., road signs, maps and SAR procedures. There might be reason to change some of those things, but they have nothing to do with James Kim’s death and the family’s endangerment.
To prevent future Kim tragedies, I think you’ve got to focus on the human factors at play. It’s really not that complicated: The Kims bit off more than they could chew with that Gold Beach resort reservation, and ignored a whole series of warnings and common sense to keep it.
They weren’t the first travelers to make that kind of mistake and they won’t be the last. I’d put it in the same category as driving too long in a day. We have all kinds of warnings against doing that, and now there are even some pretty detailed restrictions on truck drivers aimed to keeping them from spending too many hours on the road.
The Kim tragedy was a variant of this problem. People exceeed their limits because they want to get somewhere, and often there was a planning failure involved. They get into a mental tunnel and focus entirely on their destination, ignoring all kinds of cues along the way.
There’s nothing wrong with holding the Kims responsible for this, the act of “holding responsible” being the dictionary definition of the verb, “blame.” It’s all part of knowing what happened. If you don’t know what happened, then you can’t take meaningful remedial actions later on.
I’m not a gadfly because I hate the Kims, or even because I hate the people who form the consensus here. I mostly laugh at their cheesy insults. But underneath it all, there’s a serious purpose to what I’m doing. I’d really like to see some lives saved as the result of the Kim tragedy.
If Mrs. Kim would simply lay her cards face up on the table and say what happened, and better yet appear in a public education campaign about the need to plan your trip, follow warnings, use common sense and be realistic when you travel, I think it is certain that lives would be saved.
That really ought to be the bottom line for everyone here, but sadly it is not. The consensus regards the truth as too cruel to speak, and as long as they do so then there is little chance that anything meaningfully positive can come out of the Kim tragedy.
There’s something else I’d like to say about crocodiles in Australia. I haven’t been down there but I intend to go one of these years, and I’d like to drive across the outback. You might think that people will ignore warnings, but I’d like to tell you that you are thinking of a subset of people.
Most people will heed warnings. I know I will, because I take wildlife seriously. Whether they are crocodiles, great white sharks, deadly snakes or jellyfish, I pay attention. I can say with a high degree of confidence that when I drive across the Australian outback I’m not going to be attacked by a crocodile or other wildlife as a result of failure to heed warnings.
This doesn’t make me some sort of superior being. It makes me a prudent person who, before he sets out into wild country, finds out what the risks are. Once I’m there, I heed those warnings and use my common sense. I still might come a-cropper, but not likely because of my negligence.
But if I am negligent and come a-cropper because of it, I sure hope that there isn’t some bunch of people who try to shift the blame elsewhere. That’s insane.
Now Charles gets to spew his toxic waste three times?
I don’t think the preview button is the issue!
Charles, not to worry, the crocs have standards.
An idea I suggested early on this conversation looks like could have some legs. A test overseas with a mobile network that is wind and solar powered for remote areas is in test.
All they need to do is add WiMax to the solution and this is a home run – especially for our remote areas!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6353741.stm
CW has been making a big deal about discrepancies in Kati’s account. I would challenge him to see if there are discrepancies in the search accounts. We are well aware of the differences in what John James recalls and what Sara and Stanton recall from their Friday meeting. But there are differences in what others, including the helicopter pilots recall.
For example I took notes on who found what tracks, and where. Rachor talks of finding tracks. Jones lands and finds bear tracks, and later tire tracks. Rachor later checks his tracks and doesn’t find evidence of any fresh tracks. Did they check the same tracks?
None of the pilots identify roads by name. There is even mention of the aviation maps using different names than those used by ground searchers.
On Monday, Rachor follows a road to the car, but makes no mention of following tracks. But the Carson pilots follow foot tracks back to Big Windy. Same road or different ones?
Anderson talks of trackers following footprints to 36-8-34, where they drop into the canyon AGAIN (?) Could it be that James had left the car via 34-9-7, and starting following the creek above 34-8-36?
There also is confusion over snow depths. Stanton found 6″ at the FS23 junction on Thanksgiving Day. By Kati’s account snow seems to start at the junction. John James talks of passenger car tracks in snow at the start of the BLM side road – but were these made by the Kims on Saturday? Wouldn’t the heavy snow on Monday and Tuesday have covered tracks made Saturday night in a thin snow layer? Plus, by Friday, snow was melting back, especially in areas exposed to the sun.
I don’t think anyone is lying here, just that there are different memories, perspectives, and in some cases, assumptions. Some of our own collective recreation of the routes (driving and walking) is based on the faulty initial assumption that the car was found near the Black Bar Lodge turn off, rather than 6 miles further down 34-8-36. Trying to recreate the details of the Kims drive, and subsequent search seems to end up raising more questions than answers.
paulj
Glenn – Wind Power for WIFI = very interesting. This cell wind power is in Namibia no less. With this technology you could probably find a remove part of the high country with good wind and height so the tower would serve much of the area. Vandalism might be an issue but perhaps it could be placed in a remote, heavily fenced area.
paulj, none of those discrepancies are significant. The contradictions in Mrs. Kim’s statements, on the other hand, go straight to the heart of what happened.
glenn, WiMax and solar power wouldn’t have saved the Kims
Besides, glenn, who do you expect will pay for these things? In case you failed to notice, that area of Oregon is facing a budget collapse.
Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Even the wise cannot see all ends.
– J. R. R. Tolkien
559/Quotes: Wonder if Tolkien had anything wise to say about Trolls ?
well, he did point out that if you expose them to sunlight they turn into stone. Something about having no heart I believe caused it.
I remember something about them having a love/hate relationship with negative attention. They love to give it –
they hate to receive it.
CW – I just reviewed the Portland police report, and Kati’s statement in the Sheriff’s report. They are consistent in placing Kims in the Portland/Salem area around 5pm Saturday, and expecting to arrive at the Lodge late. A 5 hr travel time is mentioned, though with the supper stop, 6hrs or longer is more realistic, even using OR 42. So any discrepancies in details earlier than that are irrelevant.
Kati’s interview also makes it sound as though they made the reservations while on the road. There were earlier inquiries, but details were settled on the 3rd call.
Obviously one can debate the wisdom of traveling that late in evening. I prefer not to do that now, though when younger I did pull some late night or all night drives.
Regarding public service announcements, to be effective they need to be short and to the point. In this case, the Kims made a number of decisions, and change at any number of points would changed the outcome. Which choice should be highlighted? Some ‘should haves’ are so broad and general purpose as to be meaningless (e.g. don’t drive late). Others are specific to this situation, and meaningless to the general public (don’t take BLM34-8-36 when it is snowing).
The ‘I shouldnt be alive’ documentary featuring the Stolpas and Les Stroud is more valuable than any short statement by Kati.
paulj
paulj, as usual, you are cherry picking.
For starters, the OSSA report mentions brunch at 10 a.m. in one spot and “morning” in another. The 5 p.m. departure time came from Kati Kim’s statement of January 15, but that statement conflicts with those of the executive director of the Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce and two employees who saw the Kims there between noon and 1:30 p.m.
One of those employees was interviewed twice. Once by the Oregon State Police, and once by Det. Mike Weinstein, someone who posted on this site until he was asked challenging questions and fled. We re-interviewed the Chamber of Commerce director, and he very specifically stood by those accounts with respect to the conversations, the identification and the timing.
We believe that the Kims stopped at the Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce shortly after noon on the 25th, and while they were there were advised not to use back roads between I-5 and Gold Beach. We don’t believe Kati Kim’s statement that they left Portland at 5 p.m., or even close to that time.
Mrs. Kim told police that conditions were dry on the road they chose. That’s contradicted by a deputy who had driven the same route a few days earlier. He saw snow accumulated on the way. Mrs. Kim told police that snow started falling after the warning sign (the fourth on their route) just after the intersection of FS-23 and the logging road.
That statement poses a problem for Mrs. Kim’s account. If things were dry and the snow started falling only after they reached that sign, and they had to back down the road as she claimed, then there was no logical reason for them not to have turned around at the intersection and returned to I-5. The only way it’s logical for them to have chosen the logging road is if they had driven up to that point in heavy snow and were afraid to go back. But if that’s what happened, then her claim about dry conditions was a lie.
All of this bears upon not only her veracity but their judgment. We believe they went up Bear Camp Road in heavy snow, against advice at Wilsonville, against the warning signs and against common sense. We think they used the logging road because they were afraid to go back to I-5 on account of the heavy snow they’d already encountered on Bear Camp Road.
They reconfirmed their Gold Beach reservation while stopped for gas at Halsey, Oregon, which is at least 5 hours from Gold Beach not counting stops. The resort has a two-week cancellation policy, so we suspect that they were determined to get there. This was their critical error. By reconfirming their reservation, they established an unrealistically challenging travel pace, even if they’d used the route they were advised to take.
When they chose the “shortcut,” they sealed their fate. It was a phenomenally negligent move on their part, especially when there were two very young children in the car and they lacked detailed maps and even rudimentary emergency equipment. They didn’t even have appropriate winter clothing.
The Kim tragedy was about judgment, not signs or technology or maps or even primarily about the contributory negligence on the part of Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton. That negligence, while certainly culpable, was a one-shot thing. The Kims didn’t just make one error in judgment but rather they made a whole series of errors.
If Kati Kim had real character, she’d come clean about how all of this happened. As for public service announcements, I’m a consumer of them not a designer of them. I have no doubt that an experienced public relations agency could figure out how to digest this in such a way as to be useful in a public education campaign. So, that’s not the issue either.
The issue is telling the truth about what happened. Not to humiliate anyone, but to save lives in the future. That ought to be the #1 goal, but for you and the consensus here, the truth is deemed to “cruel” to tell. How sad.
CW-564 Can you tell me why you are so interested in saving lives?
We also think there was a time gap of 3 or 4 hours between the time they left Portland and the time they arrived in Halsey. We’ve speculated that they might have filled those hours by visiting wineries in the area. It would help explain why Mrs. Kim didn’t want to say what really happened. But, quite frankly, how they spent the time is of secondary importance.
Guess what? Even if Mrs. Kim flat-out lied about what happened on Nov. 25, I’d really not be all that down on her for it. It would be very understandable, all the more so if this had been a garden-variety private tragedy.
But the minute CNN, et. al. turned it into a national story, all of that changed. It became a public event. And that was cemented into place when Spencer Kim wrote an op-ed piece for [i]The Washington Post[/i] that blamed the government for what happened and recommended a series of outrageous remedies.
Like it or not, this is a high-profile thing. That’s very much a double-edged sword. It exposes Mrs. Kim to the harsh glare of publicity, which is something I sure don’t envy. On the other hand, it presents an opportunity to save lives in the future. But only if the truth is known and told, and appriopriate responses are made, i.e., the public education effort we’ve recommended.
At this site, there have been NO relevant, realistic alternatives presented. All you’ve done is tinker with irrelevant stuff, while personally attacking me for telling you the truth. What a cowardly shame on your part, the “your” being meant in the plural.
CW-564 Can you tell me why you are so interested in saving lives?
Does one need a reason?
567-CW I’ll reword it. Why the inordinate interest in saving lives?
Leland…even an assclown needs a reason to exist! Maybe he is just trying to find his way!
CW at 556 said) paulj, none of those discrepancies are significant.
Perhaps not, but they are still interesting. These questions fall into the same “so-what” category as the question about the back-door entries to the BLM Maze that Mr. John Rachor cleared up for us. I looked at the sat photos and the roads are clearly visible, although the entry from Bear Camp looks like part of an old trail.
It appears that the most distant point in the BLM Maze is a trailhead above Missouri Bar (River mile 43.5 – Black Bar Lodge is at RM 35.8) that appears to go to the shelter with what looks like a helicopter landing pad near the trailhead, presumably to service the river campsite. It would take a little more creative driving, but the Kim Family could, at least in theory, been a lot more lost than they were.
I agree with Paulj that the SAR deserves more scrutiny, if only to fill in the missing pieces.
Paulj at 554) John James talks of passenger car tracks in snow at the start of the BLM side road – but were these made by the Kims on Saturday? Wouldn’t the heavy snow on Monday and Tuesday have covered tracks made Saturday night in a thin snow layer? Plus, by Friday, snow was melting back, especially in areas exposed to the sun.
Here’s what the James Brothers told OSSR:
“[We] traveled a mile up the Galice Access Road (aka 34-8-36) past the junction of Forest Service Road #23. [We] ran out of snow, hit bare pavement and were forced to turn back but [we] could see a set of passenger vehicle tracks that appeared to lead into the location that had been snowed over. [snip]
[We told Stanton and Rubrect that we] had traveled out the Galice Road for approximately one mile and were forced to turn around because of bare pavement. [We] also told STANTON and Sara that [we] had seen what appeared to be passenger vehicle tracks in the snow.”
OSSR III p. 23-24.
Please keep in mind that both Mr. John James and Mr. Denny James know their own territory and were specifically looking for clues. I am speculating here, but if the Kim Family drove through snow, they would also drive through areas that were shielded from snow by trees, through transition areas that might not received a full dose of snowfall, and through mud. Later snow would not necessarily fill in these areas evenly, but might leave clues that would tell an experienced pair of trackers that a car had gone down BLM 34-8-36 and did not return.
In addition, it appears that Mr. John James was the first person to alert Josephine County that the Kim Family was missing.
Anderson talks of trackers following footprints to 36-8-34, where they drop into the canyon AGAIN (?) Could it be that James had left the car via 34-9-7, and starting following the creek above 34-8-36?
That’s intriguing. If he did, it means that he crossed BLM 34-8-36 not long after he started following the creek and consciously decided to continue.
Trying to recreate the details of the Kims drive, and subsequent search seems to end up raising more questions than answers.
Yes, it does. Here are a few more questions:
(1) What is the story on the Merlin gas station?
(2) Do we know who placed each of the three calls to the TuTuTun Lodge?
The Nazis were convinced of the “Final Solution” too.
Always beware of final solutions…
For behind them are often men of tyranny, which they themselves do not recognize because they are too busy being convinced they are right.
Fortunately humanity does have humanity, and the masses are not always so gullable.
There is never only one solution…
Hey “Quotes” please tell me you’re calling me a nazi. Please?
Notice how he cherry picks quotes from the Sheriff’s review but leaves out details such as law enforcement found the C of C “interviews” were not of substance, in the end. Doesn’t mean anyone lied, but he can’t grasp that concept, still. Does he think that whatever Kati said made them discount the interviews, or does he understand that they would normally weigh all the factors and make a decision?
I can hear him sputtering about how many times they were interviewed, how he (using the royal “we”, of course), did a follow up interview which confirmed their story.
Give me a break, I wish a had a dime for every interview I’ve done where the person being interviewed was well-meaning, but totally, completely in error. Yes, CW, even multiple witnesses to the same event. People can be mistaken, what a concept! There are a lot of factors taken into account when weighing such information.
569: Leland…even an assclown needs a reason to exist!..
Glenn, I don’t blame you for your lack of logical and literary engagement with Charles. Why make yourself look bad? But if someone advised you the monosyllabic name-calling makes you look good, I’d go elsewhere for advice.
The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.
I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.
Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.
– Adolf Hitler
Godwin’s Law
“As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”
Maddy, you and your cohort are eager to deny any evidence that reveals the truth about James and Kati Kim’s negligence. Usually this would be amusing in a weird sort of way, but in this case it could wind up costing future lives. This makes it sad.
We have every right to individual sovereignty.
CW- Why the inordinate interest in saving lives? I would think you would have some special reason.
leland, only someone who has no interest whatsoever in saving lives, i.e., you and the others who consider the truth about the Kims’ negligence too cruel to utter, would consider my interest in saving lives “inordinate.”
You really ought to go to that memorial service. It’ll be a great gathering of people who don’t care about anyone but themselves and their own feelings. Tell us how it goes. Who knows, maybe Kati Kim will be selling stuff from her boutiques at 50% off. For the children, I’m sure.
How absurd you seem to be!
85% attitude 13.5% bs 1.5% substance
581/ Quotes: you forgot the “bad” before attitude…and I think you are overly generous at 1.5% substance.
Quotes, is that one from Hitler, too? 🙂
That did occur to me as well.
But I am not surprised if he is accustomed to Nazi/Hitler comparisons, as it sounds like he was from his ready deflective response.
(574) John…lol. Thanks for the advice. I am going to expand my vocabulary and add some stereophonicsyllabic names for Charles.
But then again I always feel compelled to tie half my brain behind my back when I go to respond to Charles and sometimes those words just blurt out. That must be called bloggingtourettes or something.
I would love to see your advice for Charles!
Quotes and Paul I have it from a good source that Charles’s eyes are brown so I think the BS factor is much higher! He is definitely full of it!
Come on, Quotes, keep calling me a nazi. It had to happen, given everything else I’ve been called here. What’s really funny is how “compassionate” you gentle California souls are. Can anyone really be surprised that, when you strip everything away, you people couldn’t care less about saving any lives?
All of which leads to a question: What are you people in this for? Earlier in this string of what must be getting close to 11,000 comments, others suggested that the purpose of this board was to gather “evidence” for a wrongful death lawsuit by Kati Kim.
Her father denied that, but I’m not sure he’s any more believable than his questionable daughter. Are you people hoping to improve Mrs. Kim’s chances of suing the State of Oregon?
If so, I think you’d better give it a second thought, because if you think I’ve been “cruel” you have no idea what a defense lawyer will do to her.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. -Bertrand Russell (1872 – 1970)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato (427 BC – 347 BC)
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. -Benjamin Franklin (1706 – 1790)
Charles you are the only that deserves a lawsuit and generally I am dead set against them but you really deserve that kind of attention from Kati, Stanton and Sara R. and whomever else you continously slam and try to damage their good names!
The more annoying you get the more inclined I am to bankroll it myself…so keep it up! I am daring ya Billy!
Like sands in the hourglass, so are the days of our lives!
– So Crates, Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure! Sometime in the 80’s I think.
Sticks and stones, etc.,
but feeble manipulations will never hurt me.
And I’ve never called you a nazi – just noticed some potential resemblances.
[588]
Bravo, Paul!
glenn, no lawyer will take your lawsuit because it would be clearly without merit. When a lawyer files a frivolous lawsuit, not only does his client open himself to financial liability but the lawyer is open to disbarment. I haven’t defamed Kati Kim. I’ve stated my opinion that she and her husband were negligent, and that I don’t believe what she told the authorities.
glenn, you’ve offered nothing but personal insults of me. You’ve been unable to rationally respond to anything. It’s entirely insults from you. That speaks volumes. Not about me, but about you and about the others here who are unable to tolerate a dissenting point of view.
Quotes, is that the California Way? To call someone a nazi and then lie about doing it? It’s really kind of pathetic.
No – read what I said. I Never called you a nazi.
And no – wrong on that too, I am not from California.
(593) Charles you are not as well versed with civil proceedings. Every dog gets their day in court especially with civil cases.
If you are familiar with civil proceedings you would also know that unfortunately there is really little recourse for civil lawsuits even if it is frivolous.
The people that continually want to drag through the mud they have worked hard in their lives and in some cases literally have gotten peanuts for the amount of effort they exert and some even put their lives on the line. You have absolutely no respect for any of them and you don’t even know them or anything about them – it is shameful.
See Charles someone like you that takes one slice out of someone’s life and wants to crucify them for it – you deserve all the grief that everyone can muster toward you.
You sit in judgment of these fine people and you have no experience rescuing someone and probably don’t even have experience in getting lost in the wilderness. You don’t have the experience basis behind you to even form an accurate opinion on the subject. You can’t possibly empathize with any of the people involved. That is why your approach is so appalling.
BOTTOM LINE: No matter how hard you try to convince yourself you have no business casting this crap out to everyone.
PS Quote – he and Pac think everyone is from Cali.
Glennn at 596) Have you ever heard of a motion for Summary Judgment?
Absolutely, it can work as long as there are no disputes to any of the material facts in the case.
As long as there are no “real” disputes about a material fact then it would have a chance…otherwise it would go forward to trial.
Of course in this situation I would think it would be filed in CA and a jury trial would be requested. How do you think Charles would do against a San Francisco based civil court and jury?
I certainly don’t think a summary judgement would fly. There are plenty of disputable points surrounding the material facts and of course after discovery who knows what else gets turned up in that wonderful process.
Brenda and how much would it cost a person to produce all the necessary sworn statements and documents to support the motion?
Any decent lawyer can argue a material fact and get it to the next stage and at a minimum the discovery process is going to be allowed to go forward and that is where all the headache and costs are except in a case where the actual trial is lengthy.
Isn’t that the whole purpose of civil litigation is to get the pound of flesh?
Not in a libel action – the facts would be contained in the pleadings.
(600) Brenda, don’t you think that Charles could NEVER prove to the standard of negligence in court regarding what he has written about the Kim’s, Stanton nor Sara R.. Isn’t that the Achilles heel here?
Since there was an official investigation done and no assessment of negligence was found, don’t you think that point of dispute would reason enough for the motion to fail?
Isn’t it true that the person making the accusations has the burden of proof here?
Now I am definitely not a lawyer and I don’t even play one on TV but the part about getting this to a trial seems pretty clear to me.
Wow, be gone awhile……….to answer some questions and clear a few thoughts….the CORSAR task force has met, formed 8 subcommittees representing public, private, and volunteer groups from 4 Southern Oregon and 2 Northern California counties. CORSAR is California Oregon Regional Search and Rescue made up of federal, state, county, private, civic, and volunteer folks. The chairman is Lt. Pat Rowland of Jackson County. The amount of discussion and assignment ground covered in four hours was phenomenal. Artificial boundaries are extinguished…….the ICS command system will be used, resource availability both in equipment and manpower will be assessed and shared quickly for rapid response. Monthly full group meetings will be held with subcommittee reports given. The cooperation between agencies and representatives could not be better. You will here more from public announcements as plans are solidified. This group will fully implement a walk the talk strategy as never seen before here in our region…….that is a promise, not just hope and see. All this inspite of failing budgets in some counties and agencies. This could not be possible without the support of all groups, both public, private, and volunteer. Rank within an organization will give way to skillset of the people involved.
To other comments as I remember them: The larger bear followed James into the ravine for about a half mile, two other smaller bears did the same, the larger one first. The bear(s) were probably just looking for some food handouts, they often raid boats and camps in the Black Bar area, never heard of an attack on a human, but who wants to test that out in the wilderness? James had absolutely no other reason to enter the canyon where he did than to avoid a bear, remember I flew that area intensely for two days low and slow, no fading memory of the topography and James’s options, once down in the canyon very, very hard to get back up and out and absolutely no safe way to exit at the Rogue River. This was a very unfortunate timing of encountering a large bear, that is my educated guess from being there shortly after and seeing the tracks before they were wiped out by ground searchers.
On another note, my friend John Rachor is going through our helicopter training program at Jackson County Search and Rescue, as are some other helicopter folks who also want to help in the future. The good folks at Carson Helicopter will also be training with us and will also help on future mission where appropriate. Two other commercial helicopter companies, Brim Aviation and Timberland Helicopters have helped me in the past when asked and will continue to do so in the future. I am also working with the Civil Air Patrol and they will be training with us during our summer exercises and our Jackson County sheriff Mike Winters has authorized me to call them out where I see fit. We are also training as I write over 100 law enforcement and emergencies services personell as well as selected volunteers on how to become insertion personell on helicopter short haul (long line) procedures. This is being covered mainly in cost by the Jackson County Sheriff Department with requests from participating agencies to pay what they can to the underwriting.
In a nut shell, we are getting better at what we do, are we perfect, absolutely not, but we are better….guarenteed!!
Also, John Rachor will be at the memorial bringing all of our best wishes from Southern Oregon.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Randy…wow…thanks for coming back with the update. It is really great that all of you are really working to make a difference and improve the SAR efforts for the area.
John R, etc…continue to amaze. I think it is really great that additional air resources will be available for future searches.
All of us that enjoy our wilderness really appreciate everything that you guys do to make it safer out there.
Thanks again for your continued analysis and information on James Kim’s decisions regarding the canyon. That part is still hard to take in however his efforts did lead to the rescue of his family.
glenn, as soon as I get the papers from their attorneys then I’ll take it seriously. I have plenty of resources, and I have no doubt who’ll go bankrupt first. Meanwhile, you might want to think about actually posting something on point. With respect to me, you’ve done nothing but fling insults. You’re a parody of yourself, glenn.
Mr. Jones, interesting stuff about the bears. It’s one more reason not to make elementary errors in judgment on the road. Starving for a week and then getting chased into a ravine by bears isn’t my idea of a good vacation. If the Kims had just paid attention to the warnings, the weather and to common sense, none of that stuff would have happened.
(605) Charles you can’t prove any of that. You cannot predict what would have or would not have happened.
You can’t prove that any of these people were negligent.
You can’t prove that if they did anything different the outcome would have changed.
You are deliberately trying to hurt their reputations.
Even after Randy Jones comes back and talks about all the changes and improvements that happening and the great positive news you still take your shot with your reputation damaging statements!
Interesting that even though you like to tout that nothing will happen there because of the budget cuts – they still seem to find a way to get it done! Can you be more wrong?
Any SAR improvements will have no bearing on the causes of the Kim tragedy.
glenn, it is my opinion that they were negligent. And anyone else other than you and a few others here thinks the same thing. Recall that, of 45 people who answered a poll at the I Love Grant’s Pass site, only two — count ’em, two — said it was primarily or exclusive the government’s fault (i.e., bad signs, SAR failures, bad maps) like you and the rest have been arguing here.
Glenn, I find it refreshing to see CW’s website effectively dead now from lack of outside participation.
(608) Charles I don’t think the government was at fault here.
In fact you are the one faulting the government by stating Stanton and Sara R. were negligent. They are government employees.
(609) Thanks for the update Kati’s Dad, it is too bad that he has to come over here!
So, Kati’s Dad, you’d rather comment about how much traffic our site gets (average of 197 unique visitors a day, actually) than [deleted]
When is it time to look elsewhere after repeatedly searching the same area? The answer is not many repeats and obtained mathematically. Those of you with analytical minds could…
GO TO: http://www.wagner.com/site/index.html
CHOOSE: Mission Planning/ Search Attack Optimization
What this site shows is that once you search an area without success, the probability the target (lost persons) is still in that area lowers. But more importantly the probability that the target is in the other areas goes up. At some point you should switch the search focus area to the area with the highest probability of target location. In the misguided desire to be thorough by multiple clearing of an area, time and resources could be wasted in this area where the probability has been decreasing. The other areas’ probabilities of target location have been increasing. Target location probabilities(TLP)should not only be estimated at the start of a search, but must also be recalculated after each repeat search of an area, because as one area’s TLP goes down the other areas’ TLP go up. After recalculation, the area with highest probability of target location should be searched, not just the same area over and over. I point this out in light of the multiple searches of FS23, air and ground.
I’m a little disappointed that comments like 612 continue to be allowed here.
Hey Rodney, two people — Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton — were told of fresh tire tracks on the road where the Kims’ car was eventually found. They ignored the tip. They were negligent, just like the Kims were negligent for ever having gone there in the first place.
SAR procedures might have been sloppy and that ought to be fixed, but it had nothing to do with the failure to find the Kims in time. That happened because of simple human error.
Most people do not think the Kims were “negligent.” Most people agree they made mistakes. Most people make mistakes, and have sympathy and empathy for the Kims.
Who turns around when they see a Rockslides ahead sign, unless the road is ACTUALLY OFFICIALLY CLOSED by a rock slide?
Do you turn around or speed up everytime you see a deer crossing sign – because you know there must be one there if there’s a sign there?
You never drive in bad weather. You never get lost. You are never tired. There are never multiple factors at once. You are always at your best and brightest 24 hours a day!
You insult people constantly – it’s virtually all you do all the time…
All of your arguments and points are so weak.
It is not only “this vs. that”, you are not only either for the Kims and against the “government”. As Glenn said, this is not black and white, as you always like to make it seem. For many people it’s not about blame at all – it’s about understanding what happened and what can be improved all around – and all that is happening without you, because people care.
This is not just about some simplified poll in Grant’s Pass.
This was a huge news story because people care. And all those caring people from around the world care more than you. And all those caring people do not believe that the Kim’s were “negligent”.
The Kims made a series of minor mistakes that led to a major tragedy.
Everyone knows that. It is now self-representational.
It’s it’s own PSA! How about that!
Anyone who uses both heart and brain, can easily see through your game.
Great post Randy, thanks and I’m really glad John will be at the memorial event.
Rodney *very* interesting math item
(615) Just trying to point out from a reliable unbiased source that there’s an alternative for SAR to reporting, “We checked FS23 five (5) times and they’re not there. Do you want us to check one more time?” They could have had a good calculated reason to switch to any other road–good tip, tire tracks or none. Just be willing to trust the TLP and change accordingly.
SAR used to run on experienced hunches (like Joe Friday), best guesses. Then they became all protocol and bureaucracy, probably driven by fear of litigation.
(616) Quotes nice post, well said. Can I quote you?
The discussion about the signs has inspired me with a thought.
I wonder if Charles prescribes the same formula to James Kim as he would himself in regard to speed limit signs. Does he actually follow the direction given by every sign on the highway? I mean a warning sign is different than a speed limit sign – a warning is informational but a speed limit sign is the law.
Do you follow the speed limit Charles – all the time?
So Charles if you speed which means you disregard posted speed limit sign, I find it interesting how you can cast aspersions about someone who may not have paid attention to informational signs.
I guess that would make you a hypocrite but then again that all depends on whether you speed or not?
(613) Yes Rodney I second Joe’s comment. That site is fascinating!
I have looked at the modeled rain and snow for the Bear Camp area for the last part of November and early December on NOHRSC snow model maps and find that the patterns there correlate well with Kati’s memories.
The model shows a rain storm passing through the area from roughly 10pm to 2am on Sat/Sun Nov 25. At higher elevations along Bear Camp this is snow.
There is a much larger storm on the 27-28th, with snow down to the 2000 ft level. The passes along I5 north of Grants Pass may have had snow during this event.
There was some precipitation with higher altitude snow around Thanksgiving, accounting from the snow Stanton found. I don’t know about the 6″ depth near the start of FS23, since he was still able drive up to mile 20, which I deduce is about 6 miles up FS23.
Prior to FS 23, BLM 34-8-36 runs at about the 3500′ level for about 3 miles. The Peavine detour runs along a ridge at this level for another 3 miles. However, in much of this area, the road appears to be out in the open, and subject to snow melt when the sun is out. FS23 appears to run in taller timber, and could retain old snow longer.
So it is plausible that the Kims did not encounter much snow, old or freshly falling until they started up FS23. I think we can accept Kati’s explanation that they thought going forward on BLM 34-8-36 would lead them on to Agness, rather than postulate that they were afraid to turn back to Galice due to bad snow conditions.
I still wonder just how visible their tracks were on BLM 34-8-36, if they were made in limited snow on the 25th, only to be covered by a major storm a couple days later. They certainly would not have been ‘fresh’ on the following Friday. More likely they were faint depressions, and visible only if the light was at the right angle. Randy might be able to elaborate on the tire tracks that he saw further down.
paulj
(617) On the Mt. Ashland search, I think Sheriff Winters was quoted commenting that the victim was found in the east fork of Ashland Creek drainage, and that’s where the slope and lay of the land had pulled people before. So maybe TLP %ages could be assigned at Mt. Ashland i.e. 60% East Fork Ashland Creek, 30% in bounds ski area and 10% southslope out of bounds. Figure out what these %-ages are and adjust the search accordingly. And adjust the TLP as repeated searches are completed in the various areas. I know,I know, people move; and it’s more complicated than just TLP. Each past search and person location, like it or not, does becomes a probability predictor for the next lost person’s location, their target location probability(TLP). That’s not the same as the probability a search will find the person. The web site points out that it’s a combination of the probability they’re where you’re looking and the probability you’ll find them–more specifically, the probability they were there, and you searched and didn’t find them. Once you look in one area, the TLP changes, down in the area where you looked and up in the others. Strange. (I used to say CWAJGA, but I don’t care anymore if you all get along or not!)
SAR used to run on experienced hunches (like Joe Friday), best guesses. Then they became all protocol and bureaucracy, probably driven by fear of litigation.
Rodney do you think most SAR folks would agree with that? It’s an important difference in approach, and if this is true SAR efforts should find a way to cut some of the volunteers loose from the restrictions and allow hunches to be followed.
(621) paulj
In the BLM report that you referenced up the post line, there was a snowfall map that showed the typical snow pack pattern for that part of BLM Grants Pass Resource area. I don’t think it would be accurate for any one storm, but it might convince some people that there is not a horizontal snow line with everything below bare and all above plastered with snow. The snow ground pattern is storm track dependent and vegetation and aspect dependent as your post states, probably more than altitude dependent. Just thought this map is easy to look at, I haven’t tried NOHRSC site.
(623) Without revealing my true identity, but it will narrow it down some, the SAR volunteer with the hunch who located me while I was self-rescuing had a reputation at the time of finding the lost person. To put it bluntly, the other SAR volunteers were angry at him in a friendly way, because one more time he had the correct hunch. Either he thought more like the average lost person or he was psychic. I dismiss the latter.
Maybe it still works that way, within the current confines .
602/Randy: Thank you for the update. Great to see that substantive changes are in the works, and good to hear John R will be attending the memorial.
616/Quotes: greap post & good points, and regarding my post 588, thank you for inspiring me. I especially liked the first quote (worth repeating) – “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” – as it speaks so directly to the dissonance on this site. Like many here, I agree the world is full of shades of grey and that extends in spades to the Kim story.
Quotes (616) it’s nice that you’re not calling me a nazi anymore. That’s progress. But you’re wrong about what most people think.
On the I Love Grant’s Pass website, only two people of 45 went along with you, Joe Duck and his other followers in thinking that the Kim tragedy was the government’s fault. Two-thirds of the respondents thought it was entirely the Kims’ fault, and another one-quarter thought it was mostly their fault.
Don’t blame the government for your own failures and those of your friends. Oh, but we don’t blame the government, you say. We just blame the signs, the maps and the SAR effort. Which is the work of, um, um, space aliens?
glenn, of course I don’t follow every sign. But I don’t then turn around and blame everyone else but myself. That’s what you and Joe Duck and the rest here do. Which is amusing, except that in this high-profile case, the refusal to tell the truth will cost future lives. Not that you care.
The refusal to discuss the truth is why Joe Duck censors comments concerning Kati’s Dad’s negligent daughter. You see it is “cruel” to tell the truth. It is so “cruel” that Joe Duck would rather have future travelers die than tell it. Pretty sad.
Charles, as a journalist you should trust that people read and understood your comment the first time. There is no reason to say the same thing over, and over, and over. We getyour point, we know about the poll that you’ve now cited a million times, we’ve read your comments. No reason to repeat, repeat, repeat the same thing.
(628) Charles you seem to be the only one bent on blaming someone. I don’t see others here trying to blame someone or pass judgment.
I guess it comes down to the following – since we don’t agree with your incessant need to blame somebody for something we must be trying to blame something else.
Sounds like you are hung up on judging and blaming people…and who or what from your past do we have to blame for your obsessive blaming and judging behavior?
(630) Pac = Wilson = Putz
Your vitriolic lack of understanding is what is more than truly pretty sad. Not that you care.
628/630: “Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.” -Franklin D. Roosevelt
[633]
Yes, it’s been obvious for some time that CW is nothing more than the attempted cleaned-up version of the other unmentionable, both of whom should earn more worthy past times.
p.s. Once again you twist the truth, I never called you a nazi, and the comparisons won’t be off the table until you give them good reason to be.
628/630: Snarl & Pac “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” – Mark Twain
Joe Duck and his other followers in thinking that the Kim tragedy was the government’s fault
I don’t think that and I don’t think many people commenting here would suggest this was the government’s fault.
Charles you are so persistent I *am* beginning to think this is all your fault, but somehow that just doesn’t add up? Where were you on November 25 anyway?
Was it R-O-S-W-E-L-L? 😮
Earn it. Dig deep an show you are more of a man with a heart than a virulent idiot without one.
(636) Joe maybe Wilson is the guy that gave them those whacky directions at the convenience store! That’s it he is overwhelmed with guilt!
Earn it. Dig deep and show you are more of a man with a heart than a virulent idiot without one.
I don’t think that and I don’t think many people commenting here would suggest this was the government’s fault.
By focusing ALL of your attention on the size, shape, color and wording of warning signs, and on SAR failures, and on map issues, you are doing more than suggesting this was the government’s fault. You are making it crystal clear that, in your view at least, the Kim tragedy is the government’s fault.
Who makes maps? The Oregon government. Who runs SAR efforts? State and local government in Oregon. Who designs, erects and maintains warning signs? Federal, state and local government.
Those are the only issues you and your followers discuss, Joe. Any detailed analysis of the Kims’ negligence is deemed “cruel,” even though that’s what was right at the center of the tragedy. So yes, you are your followers are blaming the government.
I don’t think individuals should pass the buck to the government. You, on the other hand, obviously do.
There’s a larger question of personal responsibility. Kati’s Dad refers to his 35-year-old son-in-law and his 30-year-old daughter as “the kids.” He admits that “the kids made bad decisions.”
But then he turns around and says it’s cruel for anyone but himself to discuss those bad decisions. His cohorts, including Joe Duck, go along with the sham and talk about nothing but irrelevant government stuff.
And then they have the unmitigated chutzpah to argue that they’re not blaming the government. Come on, people. You’re the only ones who believe that, as evidenced by the results of the I Love Grant’s Pass poll. Two of 45 people saw it your way. Two.
CW, the more you post the more ridiculous you appear to sensible folk. I think you are close to the bottom of the credibility barrel now.
641 “But then he turns around and says it’s cruel for anyone but himself to discuss those bad decisions.”
Please reference your source when you quote me. You really have no credibility left.
What a bad jouralist you must have been! Were you fired?
(643) Kati’s Dad welcome to the rumble!
I am sure along with Chuck’s credentials he has his diploma brilliantly displayed from:
WhatsAMatter U
I am sure he got a BS degree from them.
Snarls: “Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed.” – Mark Twain
Think what you will, but we will succeed, and lives will be saved, through the many suggestions put forth on this post….but you will still be what you are.
test
http://www.extremetracking.com/open;ref1?login=kimtrag
This site will give you complete visitor stats to CWs site. His use of numbers to prove how many people visit the site is as bad as his speculation skills.
(647) LOL Brewdude you rock!!!
LMAO…
Joe wait until you look at those stats…his total unique visitors pretty much matches your daily count!
Probably most of the hits are his own or even from posters over here going over and seeing what the fuss is about. I clicked on his “blog” which also had an entry about how suspect the site was given its anon. writers. (Among other critical posts.)
Check “referrals” to see where they came frome. mostly him posting the site every where.
Charles where are you now? Do you have nothing further to say?
(650) Brewdude you need to hook up with Tara she is another detective out here – you guys could start an agency.
Something that hasn’t been said yet today. To all here. I hope you have a Happy Valentine’s Day. I know I did. If a story like this teaches us one thing it is to love your wife/husband/partner with all your heart Everyday. Not just today.
653–Brewdude, you are a good fellow and you have a great brother. I would like to meet you someday perhaps in San Francisco at Kati’s place. You can often find me in Santa Fe if you ever visit there.
(653) Hey brewdude, my day ended up fine but when it started I wasn’t sure…my wife exclaimed when we woke…Happy VD!…I thought she was trying to tell me something. LOL – just kidding.
Thanks today is a great day especially for the kids and our daughters are having their fun at school with this. Aye yi yi, boys, boys, boys!!!
A “journalist” without conscience, integrity or compassion is merely a confabulator who writes it down.
My father, a true journalist, would be spinning in his grave if he saw what was being posted by someone claiming to be a “journalist”. I guess people can call themselves whatever they wish, but don’t put a pox on the entire profession.
(656) Madeleine I have to believe in heaven anyone would be spared having to read stuff from Charles!
Kati’s Dad, I would be honored to meet you and your Daughter someday. I hope to visit the west coast in June or July so maybe we can meet then. And yes, my brother did turn out to be a pretty good guy 🙂 Despite all the torture I inflicted as an older brother (though to be fair, I wasn’t very good at the whole torture thing).
656 and 657 Both excellent posts. You folks are great.
(658) Brewdude looks like you have become Charles worst nightmare now! LOL. I am still laughing about this!
Aw, you’re all being too hard on Snarls, he was a fine journalist, having honed his writing skills at esteemed publications such as The National Enquirer, The Star & The Globe.
I am just waiting for Charles to come back and state that he is an actuary as well and that is how he can understand his traffic statistics different from the cold hard facts.
(661) Actually Paul that statement is an insult to American Media, Inc. and David Pecker! LOL.
I might have set the bar at The Weekly World News…but hey who am I to judge!
CW and others, I think that I have finally figured out the source of our collective disagreements.
Many on this board seem to be saying that, as Reasonable People, each of them would have made exactly the same decisions that James & Kati Kim made at each and every step of the way. As Reasonable People, they would, shortly after Sunset and with their own children in their car, have confirmed reservations at a hotel 300 miles away. As Reasonable People with their own children in the car, they would have left the interstate to take a series of increasingly-deteriorating roads and pass at least one warning sign until they reached the snow barrier. As Reasonable People with their own children in the car, they would carefully back down that same road, reach a safe intersection, and then would decide to take another increasingly-deteriorating road into an wilderness until a gate stopped them from going any further. And then as Reasonable People with their own children in the car, they would stop and not turn around and drive out, even though they had not encountered any snow on this second road (See Paulj’s research at 621). To summarize, each of these people either assert or agree that James & Kati Kim did what any Reasonable Person would do under these particular circumstances.
You, me, PacNWer, maybe Siskiyou, 43 Mail tribune readers, and perhaps others on this board seem to assert that each of them would not make the same decisions that James & Kati Kim made at one or more points along the way. Let’s call each member of this group the Unreasonable Person.
So let’s try a little thought experiment. Suppose that one Portland Sunday morning, you brunch with a Professional Couple who you have known for several years. The Professional Couple is traveling to San Francisco and they agree to take your Great-grandmother and Baby with them. Granny is aware of her surroundings but unsophisticated and unable to act on her own. As a baby, Baby is completely helpless. Professional Couple takes the same actions as James & Kati Kim did, except that Granny starves to death in the wilderness. The Executor of Granny’s estate, Levi Goldenstein, sues Professional Couple for causing Granny’s death. Same result or different result?
Let’s play some more: Suppose that Ms. Professional Couple’s family are not powerful or politically-connected in any way (i.e. the Secretary of Defense do not immediately take their calls). Assume that they raised the alarm with the Portland Police Bureau and that State and County search effort proceeded as it was planned on Friday morning, December 1, 2006 (i.e., the Carson helicopters stayed on the ground and the OANG mission flew with local observers as scheduled). Same result or different result?
Note to Paulj: There seems to be a discrepancy about the weather over the search area on December 1, 2006. Although the GR describes the weather over the Galice-Agness search area as clear, presumably based on reports from Curry County. However, Sexton Summit weather shows fog and I believe that fog was also reported by the helicopter pilots who were searching the Bear Camp area. Can you or any one shed any further light on the flying conditions on Friday morning?
(664) Brenda nice try.
P1
First of all none of this is black and white. I don’t think anyone here would agree with your assessment and summary of our beliefs and what we think.
P2
I think the main complaint is the lack of compassion that any of you demonstrate – it is sad and even sadder if any of you have children.
In addition you can’t possibly assert what you woulda, coulda, shoulda done in this situation – until you are in the situation and have direct experience you’re just spewing fantasy and stroking your egos of how superior you are and that you don’t make fatal mistakes.
All of you really need to spend some time talking to people who have survived these kinds of things – a lot of them talk about simple small innocent mistakes that snowball into something dire and drastic.
P3
Brenda of all people you know what happens in civil litigation rarely matches the reality of what happened in real life. Literally anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country and every dog will get their day in court. You can’t possibly predict what would happen in a legal proceeding regarding Granny.
P4
I think SAR and LE enforcement would disagree on this point. Granted influence might help expedite the escalation to senior officers but I think SAR and LE would put forth the same effort for a lost VIP as they would for a lost felon. There are only so many resources and all of them are applied to search efforts.
You should have been the voice of Charles Wilson if you wanted to get anywhere with this crowd. He absolutely has zero credibility here. He has in FACT on multiple occasions misrepresented information, data points, and comments by others. If the link from Brewdude is accurate and the hit counts are correct then Charles has completely lied about the traffic to his website. If someone would go to such lengths to boost their case then nothing they say can be believed. As I said ZERO credibility!
Brenda you missed your calling with this one, at least you can engage in thought provoking discussing and box in the concepts so that people can engage in intelligent debate.
And for the record I was spot on about Charles Wilson from day 1!
glenn, as usual you and the rest offer nothing but personal attacks on anyone who discusses what “the kids,” age 35 and 30, did wrong. Kati’s Dad, when do “kids” grow up?
Charles interesting when you posted…wow…some might call that devine intervention!
666 CW-Charles, is Charles Wilson the only name you have used to post on this blog?
glenn, I really didn’t think you people could do better than to call me a nazi, but now I’m the anti-christ. Ah, you Californians. You just don’t know when to stop, do you? 🙂
Glenn, just as a matter of fairness, you should know that I never read any of your posts because I don’t really care what you have to say. As you demonstrated way back when the GR came out, you had many opinions on the GR, except that you hadn’t read it. I simply don’t care to get into another uninformed discussion with you.
My parents and my in-laws often referred to their grown children as “the kids” until the day they died. It was an endearment, which I’m sure must be a foreign concept to some. My own “kids” are in their 30’s, and they will always be my “kids”. Charles, you don’t appear to have a gracious or compassionate bone in your body, ditto your cohorts, and I pity all of you.
Funny, Madeleine, I was just about to say the exact same thing. Charles, if you are indeed a “journalist” then you should know better than to exploit what is obviously just a term of endearment used to refer to one’s children.
(669) You said it, not me!
(670) Brenda it’s ok.
Calling them “the kids” is one thing, but absolving them of responsibility is another. Kati’s Dad does nothing but attack those who tell the truth about his daughter’s negligence. If he and others here cared about saving lives of future travelers, they’d encourage Mrs. Kim to come clean about the events of Nov. 25, and to make PSAs about the dangers of inattention and negligence on the road.
Alas, it would seem they value a rockin’ memorial service a lot more than future lives. Sad.
My children will always be “kids” to me. I cannot recall calling Kati “baby” beyond her early childhood days, but I found myself calling her “baby” and patting her gently on the back several times in the days following the rescue. It was an automatic response.
My Father-in-law would call my wife “baby” on occasion until the day he died in his 80’s. I viewed it as a very sweet and most tender expression of love.
(674) Charles I am looking forward to Kati’s Dad coming back here after the memorial and telling us how many people attended!
I could only imagine what number you would come back with…
Again I will ask – did you inflate your website hit values on here? They don’t even come close to what we are have seen – did you lie to all of us?
Kati’s Dad has NEVER absolved them of responsibility. Again, some journalist you are.
Charles, is Charles Wilson the only name you have used to post on this blog?
When I clicked that link I saw numbers from mid-January. The numbers I see are up to date. Joy, K.D. says the kids made mistakes, blah blah blah, but when asked what mistakes he goes bezerk along with the rest of you.
Fact is, all you people talk about is government stuff. SAR, signs and maps. You are fine and mellow Californians up to the point at which someone calls you out, in which case your fangs come out and you call them nazis and the antichrist. Thou shalt not interfere with a Californian’s self-righteous immunity, huh Joy?
yes, leland. and have you ever been treated for psychiatric illness?
676 Glenn, I will not be attending the Memorial Service that weekend. I’ll be saving lives in the medical center that weekend. I wish I could go. I’d sure like to shake John Rachor’s heroic hand. Plus, I can never get enough time with my lovely granddaughters.
680 CW- No, why do you ask?
[deleted]
Well, correct me if I’m wrong, but Kati’s Dad isn’t from California as far as I know. And from what I’ve read Kati made it her home relatively recently, as did James. So, I’m not sure when this became an anti-Californian debate but it seems a little misplaced.
I do live in California and have for a while. But I’m originally a hick from North Carolina. I guess we can be pretty self-righteous in our own way, though.
One outrageous question deserves another, leland. By the way, have you posted here under more than one sign-on?
685, CW- No, one and only.
Glenn takes note…leland answers the questions directly and quickly…however Charles dodges and doesn’t answer…
Charles have you ever inflated the hit count for your website? You mentioned that you looked back in mid-Jan however you have posted on multiple occassions about your hit count and btw…did you just assume what the numbers were?
What kind of journalist are you? You would think you would have the facts and stick to the facts afterall someone is going to check – right?
Also will repeat leland’s question – have you posted here under another name?
No, glenn, I made no assumptions about numbers. Someone posted a link here that comes up with mid-January numbers for our site. This is mid-February. We don’t have a long history, either as a website or with Extrseme Tracking. The numbers bounce around. As of right now (7:07 p.m., 14 Feb.) our daily average is 205 unique hits.
We’re having a good day today. Word’s slowly getting out, and traffic is building. We’ve got a whole lot of lurkers, and I’m sure Joe does too.
I seriously doubt your numbers are “building” just as I doubt they are here. As you said yourself, the story is over. There isn’t that much outside interest anymore. You are delusional.
I don’t think there’s a whole lot of interest, but our numbers ARE climbing. I don’t expect you to believe me. After all, like the other Californians on this site, you’ve never met a piece of the truth you didn’t want to deny.
The whole ‘California’ thing really makes me laugh. Somehow crossing over the border from Oregon to California makes us a different species. Pretty shallow thought process for a ‘journalist.’
Charles, so post the proof of your numbers?
Joy, if the shoe fits, wear it.
glenn, we pay for that service, which means you don’t get to be a free-rider. If you choose not to believe me, so be it. You don’t believe inconvenient facts anyway.
You mean the “shoe” of a shallow thinking so-called journalist?
No, Joy, I’m talking about the one with the really thick sole that just missed your head by a half an inch.
You pay for that service, well then you might want them to take it off of the google search for your website.
By the way, I find the “did you mean” result on that search really funny. I mean so perfect it is as if God himself were against the site.
By the Way CW, mind telling people the WHOLE story about the “Ilovegrant’spass” poll. for instance, who wrote the questions, and the content of the thread that was attached to it. There is some more truth there to come out and I am interested to see how many more BALD FACED LIES you can come up with. You are the kind of person that gives Humans in general a bad name.
(695) So Charles now you are physically threatening people here. You are such a low life.
Your a fake Charles you are no journalist!
Your a joke.
(696) Brewdude…big assumption that Charles is human!
Physically threatening people, glenn? As soon as you figure out a way to fling a shoe over the Internet between Seattle and California, let us all know. In the meantime, it might be time to put your tinfoil hat on.
What “whole story” are you talking about, Jeffy (696)? Anyone can go look it up for themselves. Or are you thinking that some conspiracy of witches cast some dark spell? God almighty, first I’m a nazi. Then I’m the anti-christ. Then I am Internet-enabled poltergeist. And now there’s a hidden story behind my posting on the I Love Grant’s Pass Forum.
You people need help! 🙂
Charles, do you take pleasure in thinking about kicking me in the head?
I knew you would never answer a straight question. It is obviously to much to hope for that you could post a simple answer to a simple question. I really hope you get help soon. before you forget and say things this offensive in real life, and the guy sitting next to you at the bar takes offence. that might be a painful lesson in how to behave in a crowd.
And did anyone notice he did admit to posting under other names here. all in all a very suspect dude. Where is Det Mike when we need him. a background check might be nice. maybe a restraining order would be good.
No, Joy. I take pleasure in the thought of a near miss at someone who can do nothing but offer insults when presented with facts. Jeffy, there was no simple question in your posting. But I have one for you: Has your brother accounted for all that money he’s raised?
And did anyone notice he did admit to posting under other names here.
No he didn’t. Go back and read again, child.
I did and for once ou are correct. I still think you need a restraining order. simple question. are you ready? Why , if you think we are all completly wrong , are you still posting here? I mean we are not on your site insulting you on a daily basis. Heck I even unsubbed from your site (though that took 48 hours).
Let me know if that question is too complex.
683 Charles, the more you write the weaker you appear, but I am getting some amusement value from your ridiculous posts. Where did you get the idea that I do hemorroid surgery? What was your real line of work? I absolutely cannot believe that you were ever a journalist.
(706) Kati’s Dad – Charles just figured since you handled him so well that you have to be an expert dealing with hemorroids!
ok guys. time to stop feeding the troll. I don’t want to see page 11 because CW keeps posting the same thing over and over again.
Things are coming together for this weekend, if you’re in SF please come out. We will be having some speakers to open the afternoon and share about James at 1pm. At 2pm we’ll have some performers and then music the rest of the afternoon where people can either spend time together or dance. The event will end at sunset. We will be announcing the James Kim Technology Foundation, but only taking pledges at this time, until we have formed into a 501(c)3 and formed our board. We should have more in place by the end of the year as we find the group of partners and participants to help achieve our goals.
Please note that on the jamesandkati.com website there are addresses where you can send donations to Eugene Mountain Rescue, JoCo SAR and JaCo SAR. Consider sending donations their way, or donating to your local SAR group. When CW gets his 501(c)3 setup to help save lives by educating the public about travel planning and map reading, we’ll list that on our website too (until then I won’t hold my breath). I’m off to finish some letters to EMR and JaCo SAR and send them some funds for their ongoing efforts.
For those who can’t resist, I suggest what I’ve done a lot in the past week or two, which is type up a response and then delete it. =) It feels really good to exercise the self control.
707/ Nah, Kati’s dad would have to work in a sewage treatment plant to truly know how to handle Snarls.
(622) When I withdrew my CWAJGA request at the end of 622, I had no idea what pent up ————-(fill in the blank) would be released. It’s obvious that productive discussion and any socially redeeming merit of this clogged blog is over.
Ah, Scott you could as yet be a politician, so skilled a diplomat are you.
To feed or not to feed the troll,
“that is the question,
Whether is nobler in mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?”
– No doubt Shakespeare met his own trolls
So many of the issues raised by this troll are vital
to the causes – the hopeful evolution and integrity of humanity.
There is such blatant manipulation and misuse of language,
meaning, fact, intent, truth, representation.
The troll only sees what it wants to see, only hears what it wants to hear, is only truthful and honest when it wants to be. It is all at the troll’s manipulation and convenience. Such a miserable creature it must be inside. So full of ugly malice.
Brenda, I think I am a Resonable Person. I don’t think I would have made the same choices in the same situation.
However, even though I’m a Resonable Person, I KNOW I am not immune to making a series of bad decisions that end up in tragedy. (Actually, that’s part of being a Reasonable Person in the first place.)
Huge distinction.
“By focusing ALL of your attention on the size, shape, color and wording of warning signs, and on SAR failures, and on map issues, you are doing more than suggesting this was the government’s fault. You are making it crystal clear that, in your view at least, the Kim tragedy is the government’s fault.”
Cheese and effing rice, your comments portray you as so effing dense!!!
First, brainstorming measures to save people from themselves is NOT blaming the lack of measures in the first place! This is simple. Your statement above paints you as one of the most dumbfounding humans I have ever encountered.
Second, you have repeatedly posted that nothing posted here would have changed anything. You are WRONG. The proposed signs to be added to the wrong side of the fork WOULD have changed something. If those signs were in place, the Kim’s wouldn’t have gone that way. Period.
Finally, your proposal of public education is more fanciful than ANY idea posted here. You must not live in the real world. People are stupid. People make stupid mistakes. You CAN NOT educate them against doing so. To even come close, you would have to spend more money than it would cost to place WiFi every 50 feet throughout the forest. In the REAL world, we ask REAL questions: Despite our best efforts at education, what stupid things will people do, and how can we keep them from doing it? “Education” is not the answer.
Okay people, I fed him. I am guilty. Will you all (including me) please Please PLEASE stop responding to any single thing that he posts. No response at all. Just 100% ignore it. Please??!?!!
Tyrone, people have ignored him, as one would a small child’s tantrum, in the past. But, like a typical 3 year old, he merely whines louder and louder and says more outrageous and despicable things to get attention. Personally, I didn’t allow my kids, when small, to overtake adult conversations in this manner, but it appears we have no choice. I think he wants to run off the remaining participants on Joe’s blog as some sort of perceived victory for his own site.
Finally, your proposal of public education is more fanciful than ANY idea posted here. You must not live in the real world. People are stupid. People make stupid mistakes. You CAN NOT educate them against doing so. To even come close, you would have to spend more money than it would cost to place WiFi every 50 feet throughout the forest.
At last, someone decides to discuss the issue rather than merely toss personal insults. In the real world, public education efforts are constant. Some of them work quite well. Examples:
– Smoking
– Drunken driving
– Forest fires
– Playing with matches
– Drugs (“Just Say No” worked much better than people think.)
– Defensive driving
– Call the gas company before you dig
– Battered women
Those are a few that come to mind right away. Have these eliminated the problems? No, but for example the U.S. smoking rate has been cut by two-thirds since the 1960s. The death rate from auto accidents is FAR lower than it used to be. And so on.
The Kim tragedy was the result of human error. The way to offset human error is education. Technology can make a contribution, depending on the specifics. But anyone who thinks they’re going to stick Wi-Max throughout the countryside in the United States is at the very least someone who hasn’t been reached by the anti-drug ads.
If you care about reducing preventable deaths in the wilderness, then you’ll focus on public education here. The Kim tragedy got huge publicity. It’s part of the culture now. That makes it a reference point that can be used in public education. It wasn’t about maps or signs, it was about people who ignored them and who ignored common sense.
This one is for public education, and if there’s one person who could be really effective along those lines it is Kati Kim. She ought to take a week off from the boutiques and make some PSA spots. The Advertising Council is the place to start.
PSAs by themselves don’t do squat. But if you combine them with other things, they can have an impact. Kati Kim should not only do PSAs, she should also go on Larry King and tell him that every day she thinks about how ridiculous they were to have ignored all the warnings. This woman can save lives if she chooses to.
Bad coding and an omission in the final two paragraphs.
The Kim tragedy one is perfect for public education, and if there’s one person who could be really effective along those lines it is Kati Kim. She ought to take a week off from the boutiques and make some PSA spots. The Advertising Council is the place to start.
PSAs by themselves don’t do squat. But if you combine them with other things, they can have an impact. Kati Kim should not only do PSAs, she should also go on Larry King and tell him that every day she thinks about how ridiculous they were to have ignored all the warnings. This woman can save lives if she chooses to.
A technology education charity is a stupid, irrelevant, self indulgent bagatelle that will help no one. It is a pristine example of how people are using someone’s death to finance their hobby horse. Anyone involved in that one ought to be ashamed of themselves.
(716) Speaking of omissions you forgot the disclaimer at the top of all your posts!
WARNING: Troll content ahead – read at your own risk!
Bagatelle = trifle
glenn, you are a bagatelle.
The troll came to wage it’s idea from the beginning, and the troll will wage it’s idea as long as it has the desire.
It makes no difference what all matters of true importance are discussed.
The troll will not listen to, nor be affected by any other reason, or reasoning ability.
The troll mind is set. The troll mind is narrow and narrowing – it’s little troll tunnel to the end.
Ultimately the troll will not get what it wants – and it will go away even grumpier.
Unless there is some type of divine, magical, or literary intervention (as in the tale of Scrooge), where something scares him right and restores him to the warmth and broad mindedness that is the better side of humanity.
Fearless Forecast: I hereby make this fearless forecast: should Kati ever give an additional accounting of her families tragic experience (and to clarify, I feel she has absolutely NO obligation to do so), I suspect it will rip holes in the trolls presumed version of events at every turn. He will then respond by calling her a liar as it will be intolerable to have her version contradict his.
Charles you are always so truculent!
You continue to refuse even a modicum of compassion for other humans and for all the years that I have been involved with blog and forums you are redefining the phrase Troll. We are going to need to come up with a new term just for you!
Some of us including myself will continue to chide your feral posts! Eventually you will have to retreat to your insular previous existence and the rest of us once again will find a great place to have coherent discussions once again.
For more enlightenment on trolls see symptoms of Narcissistic Personality disorder. Fascinating how well that shoe fits.
Travecurmin maybe that’s it! Charles you may have created a new word!
should Kati ever give an additional accounting of her families tragic experience
That’s a big “if,” and “if” I were you I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for her to do so. I’ll be somewhat surprised if Mrs. Kim gives any interviews of any kind. If she does, I further suspect that it would be on the condition that she not be asked meaningful questions of any kind.
Joe:
Hey, why isn’t Joe Duck deleting all these personal attacks? He sure tolerates a lot of B.S around here!
Duck:
Hmmm – I don’t know, maybe he just doesn’t have the time?
Joe:
No, he’s got lots of time, he’s an *internet guy*!
Duck:
Quack! Quack!
Here a quack, there a quack …..
Unless there is some type of divine, magical, or literary intervention (as in the tale of Scrooge), where something scares him right and restores him to the warmth and broad mindedness that is the better side of humanity.
What, I should aim to be a Californian who calls anyone who doesn’t agree with me a nazi or the anti-christ? Thanks for the entertainment, Quotes. Are you glenn, by chance?
Ah Charles you flatter me but alas it must be some sort of sycophant ploy!
Even though Quotes and I may be on the same page we are certainly not the same man (meant in the biblical sense of the word!).
But glenn, how can anyone know you are telling the truth?
730/ We have far more reasons to question your honesty over Glenn’s. Does it really matter anyway ? It’s like the – is Pac really Snarls ? – enigma. It’s an interesting question, but the answer doesn’t get you anywhere new. You and Pac are of one mind, even if you are different people (twin sons of different mothers so to speak).
I’ve read through all the threads here. PacNWer had some good points to make before s/he went off the deep end. Driven there, I might add, by the “tolerant” and “compassionate” Californians who turn incredibly vicious and nasty when someone dares to suggest that the Kim tragedy was primarily the Kims’ own fault.
Californians must think they lead such a charmed life that it’s cruel to ever hold them responsible for anything. Must be nice.
Charles you are the one with the agenda here, not me and you are more than willing to adjust the facts and truth to fit your cause.
There are dozens of examples in your posts where you have misquoted, mislead, etc… and many people have called you on it. As a so-called journalist you certainly are not meticulous!
Your constant vexing only proves the point that you can’t be trusted.
At least myself and others when we make a mistake, we admit and do our best to correct it and most importantly learn from it. Actually Charles that is what most reasonable people will do – most of us aren’t perfect like you.
And your best response was the nominal use of vocabulary to try to strike back (Charles did you get that one?).
You just can’t get over the fact that so many repudiate your position and ideas.
You would think as a journalist or at least someone that really wanted to get a story you would have seen Joe’s place, a place to embrace and engage all the KEY players of this story (yes Charles that’s right they have all posted here and you don’t see them flocking to your site) but since you can’t have your way you are just trying to debase this site and demonize innocent people.
Snarls – I thought a good journalist was supposed to do their homework ??…and make a reasonable effort to be accurate ?? I live in Oregon, ditto Joe D, Maggie & Lisa. Mapper lives in the MidWest. Tara, I believe, lives in AZ. Glenn is somewhere East of the Missippi, but I will let him speak for himself. Once again recklessly throwing your “facts” around, but who is surprised by that ?
734: Snarls – P.S. – And I am ever so glad I do not live in Seattle, heaven forbid having you, PacNWer or Brenda for a neighbor.
(734) Yes I laugh everytime Charles labels us as Californians…just another black and white stereotype that he plays and once again he is wrong on all counts!
The key players posted here only as long as they weren’t asked challenging questions. Once I showed, for example, that Det. Mike Weinstein had possessed the information he was seeking when he made the credit card request to the hotel in Portland, he scooted out of here faster than a cockroach when the light’s been turned on.
Paul, then we’ll call ’em honorary Californians. 🙂
Charles I haven’t seen you ask one tough question yet!
You show up here with outrageous levels of enmity and you expect anyone here to respect what you say and actually listen to you.
And when people give you an answer you are quick to attack and insult when you get an answer that doesn’t fit your plan even if it is the truth.
They key players here have ALL been forthright and forward with their comments and discussions. There are those here that are paranoid of the government, etc but that doesn’t mean the answers weren’t reasonable and not the truth.
You just can’t stand hearing that you are wrong and clearly out in left field. By the way – how is the weather in your world?
I think literally all of the relevant questions have been asked and the answers are sound and reasonable. Most people have moved on and are digesting the data and doing something about it to improve future operations.
Snarls: I am done feeding the troll today, but to clarify, the key players left en masse after the OSSA report came out, key topics had been flogged to death and there was nothing germane left to debate. Humor yourself into believing you had something to do with it if it makes you happy, but once again – as is so frequently the case – you are wrong.
I would like to suggest that we all take Saturday off from posting on this wonderful blog. We can use that time to celebrate James life in our own way. I know that I will make tea for my wife ( I need the Sado practice anyway, have a matusri coming up in April). I know the principles of Tea will be a good reminder of why I am here. Wa. Kei, Sei, Jaku. 4 Kanji for Harmony, Respect, Purity, and Tranquility. Something all of us need to try and find. so on Saturday let us make an honest effort.
Do good.
The discussion on this site should have long ago focused on human error and how to short-circuit the sort of tunnel logic that gripped the Kims. It’s not about signs, maps or electronics. It’s not about using the Internet to help in SAR, and it’s not even about the disorganization of the effort to find the Kims or really even about Sara Rubrecht and Jason Stanton’s contributory negligence.
It’s about how to penetrate the thick skulls of drivers who bite off more than they can chew. I am the only one who’s been talking about it here, and when I do so you call me a nazi and the anti-christ. It’s really weird.
There are some other worthy topics that have barely even been mentioned. For example, Spencer Kim accused the news media of hindering the search. That was flatly not true. Even his own helicopter agency said it. He wants draconian restrictions on wilderness access. That one went by in a flash, too.
And there’s the issue of privacy of phone records and credit card information. Det. Weinstein at the very least was highly misleading on that issue, and Spencer Kim’s suggestion to do away with privacy protections is just crazy. No one discussed any of that other than myself.
But you have been willing to post hundreds of personal attacks, and hundreds of messages tinkering about the edges of irrelevancies like signs and maps and Wi-Fi in the forest. You fritter around with nothing, while the opportunity to do something slips away.
Attack me all you want, but five years from now when you read some story about the travelers who pulled a Kim-like stunt and paid with their lives, imagine what an effective public education program might have done. And be sure to tell yourselves — especially you, Kati’s Dad — that you could have done more.
Do any of you people even realize that if Spencer Kim gets his way on the privacy rules, it’s just about baked in the cake that people will die as a result? If any cop can call any hotel and claim that they need to see guest records because there’s a dire emergency, sure as night follows day you will have police officers involved in domestic disputes getting those records and killing wives and spouses.
Not that a single one of you people cares about that one. See, it’s cruel to talk about the truth. You people are disgusting in your smugness.
I meant to say, wives, girlfriends and partners. And helping out friends on the force. Of everything Spencer Kim suggested, the idea of relaxing privacy rules was the worst idea of all. But you people were so quick to bow in abject “sympathy” that you threw all judgment out the window.
You’d better be careful just what the hell you wish for.
I meant to say, wives, girlfriends and partners. And helping out friends on or off the force to do it to their wives, girlfriends or partners. Of everything Spencer Kim suggested, the idea of relaxing privacy rules was the worst idea of all. But you people were so quick to bow in abject “sympathy” that you threw all judgment out the window and let Weinstein slither away from the truth that his records request was superfluous.
You’d better be careful just what the hell you wish for.
Do you stand in front of a mirror when you talk to yourself like this ? It’s like watching a cat chase it’s tail…round and round it goes, ever faster, ever more furious, making no headway whatsoever. Bye !
The Duckmaster could verify that I am not Glenn!
CW, I believe you have a case of argumentative (though certainly not speed related – but destination driven) get-there-it-is!
You will continue to belittle everyone elses’ opinion and ideas, but inflate your own.
Clearly, your ideas are the only ideas that matter to you.
People don’t insult you because you present the facts, and truth, etc.
People speak out against you because you insult everyone else in word, manner, and deed.
Look at the troll-like logic. We don’t agree with you, therefore we are all Californians who “blame” the “government”.
And you insist on misrepresenting the truth. No one ever called you a nazi or anti-christ.
You reduce everything to nothing. We have discussed nothing. We have done nothing.
And amazingly, you are the only one who has done something!
Wow! Isn’t it incredible that – that, is what you think!
I am blown away by your abilities to puff yourself and all your ideas up, and try to deflate everyone else, and any other ideas.
A show of hands, really!
Why are you not president?
JD here is something the Jim Gray team is doing which is where I would have been headed with our efforts to put out fliers if I had known about it.
http://www.communitywalk.com/map/64266
Pretty cool mashup.
746/Quotes: See “characteristics of narcissists” – it explains a lot of what we’re experiencing here. Specifically:
1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
3. Believes he is “special” and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
7. Lacks empathy
9. Shows arrogant, haughty, patronizing, or contemptuous behaviors or attitudes
Others fit to varying degrees, but these are the most spot-on.
740 –
Alas, there is a time and place for almost everything…
Thank you Jeff – I think that is a beautiful idea…
Well, lisa, once again I was amazed by my brothers sense of self control and diplomacy. So I will respect his and Kati’s Dad’s wishes and make every effort to play nice on this board. For me Sado is what helps with that. For others it might be a walk on the beach, or even just some time with a loved one. But I do believe that spreading good things is the only way to get rid of trools. they scream for a bit then lose interest.
trolls even, not trools whatever they may be. See still angry, but trying to maintain.
Trools are trolls that are fools, which may be a more apt desciptor for this case.
People are going to die from your smugness, folks. At least I’ll know I tried. You’ll know that you went to a fine memorial service and listened to a great band. Cool!
Charles when you post it reminds me of a funeral knell!
Well, some private communications with Mr. Wilson seem to have left him with some doubt about what I meant by my reference to the tea ceremony. here is a description of the four principals. I think most of you will find them useful
Wa Kei Sei Jaku (harmony, respect, purity and tranquillity) are the four principles of Chanoyu as left by tea master Sen Rikyu (1522-1591). They are the principles that practitioners of tea endeavor to integrate into their daily lives. These principles are a reflection of the pure spirit and soul of Sen Rikyu. While not a true zengo (Zen phrase) these four simple words can be realized after much practice.
Wa (harmony) is the ultimate ideal for human beings. It is the positive interaction between the host and the guest in a tea gathering or among people in any situation in life. Tea is the sharing between the host and guest and is not a solitary pursuit. Harmony extends to nature, as well, and to tangibles such as tea utensils, everyday utensils and life itself. True harmony brings peace.
Kei (respect) is the ability to understand and accept others, even those who we may be in disagreement with. When we are kind to others, and can humble ourselves, we can receive respect. In tea the host thinks of the guest and the guest of the host. It is this continued sharing and consideration that makes the tea gathering both memorable and successful. Ideally, all are of the same rank in the tea room. It is important to treat everything and everybody with the same respect. Treat utensils of various pedigree the same. The price of an object should not dictate how it is treated. Extend a pure heart and true respect can be realized.
Sei (purity) is the ability to treat oneself and others with a pure and open heart. This is really the essence of tea training. This purity is not one of absolute cleanliness but one of pure heart. With a pure heart, harmony and respect can be realized. When the tea garden is cleaned ones heart and soul are also being purified. When one wears clean clothes this purity also exists. A pure heart is not showy but natural. Sen Rikyu’s ideal of purity was the natural look of the garden after it was cleaned and a few leaves from a tree fell onto the freshly manicured moss.
Jaku (tranquillity) is the point in ones training and practice where a level of selflessness is reached. While on the one hand it is the ultimate goal, on the other it is the beginning once again. A true master reaches this highest level and then putting the ideals of harmony, respect and purity into practice, begins again with a fresh and enlightened heart. At this point the endless possibilities of life can be realized.
I almost forgot.
Do good.
Wow Scott, that Google mashup site makes it even easier than building your own mashup. Also using a community site would spread the word better than putting the maps at one’s own site: http://www.communitywalk.com
Jeff I like the idea of a posting break on Saturday in honor of James Kim. What do people think about me closing comments for the day as opposed to just letting people decide on it?
Wonderful plan Mr. Duck.
Do good
Jeff! Dewwwwwwwwd Are you a California Do Gooder Dude?
That is a very good plan. Even people with the best of intentions need an enforced break from their mission at times.
Well. I lived in California for many years, I also lived in Japan, Florida and Kansas. So you might say I am from nowhere and everywhere.
The “do good” sign off is just a remider to myself to try and do good. I do not always live by that admonition (as is evidenced by some of my angry posts here and elsewhere,) but I do try.
Oh and FYI, just taught PE last week. If your CPR certificartion is out of date, renew it, as they have changed a few things recently.
Unless I hear objections we’ll close the comments on Saturday. Wish I could be at the memorial because it sounds great and it sounds like the kind of celebration James Kim would have really enjoyed and appreciated.
Joe how about closing the entire thread down on Saturday…we pretty much have covered everything.
If you want to have something from Saturday’s memorial as the closer that would be great.
If anything else comes up we can start a new thread.
Anything to make Charles disappear!
Gentlepeople, the semi-anonymous and somewhat alienated, somewhat connected nature of discourse on the ‘Net is well known to bring about trolling and flaming and lots of other, well, interesting side effects. Clay Shirky’s short essay on the subject of flame wars as a natural part of mailing lists is a readble and good introduction to the subject: http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_user.html
So I would not get too excited about NPD or personality disorders in general. The Intarweb is a funhouse mirror of personality.
I will no longer advise you not to feed the trolls. The postings here have evolved an interesting meta-stable relationship of signal to — not noise, but anti-signal. I have never seen a group evolve end-to-end in quite this same way, so at this point in time I would encourage you to do whatever comes naturally. Somebody in some gradskool may get a paper or two from it 🙂
I will continue to ask you to be excellent to each other, and to give some blood to your brothers and sisters as best as you are able.
Is clicky link not sent to moderation for!
http://givelife.org
Actually Glenn, this thread seems to have become a bit of a community. Instead of closing the thread, maybe we could sort of morph it into a place to discuss (and keep alive) those ideas that we are developing to help people who make future mistakes and need rescue. If that is OK with JoeDuck of course
Glenn! I, I, I just don’t think I can shut this down for good without an embarrassing display of emotion 😥
But Joe, weren’t we going to discuss bear psychology next? Think of the grad students, man!
Tharwood – or *rattlesnake* psychology in case we head up to Trinity Alps again.
Tharwood we could discuss bear dung as well!
Joe why don’t you set up the Charles Wilson Bash(ing) thread and we continue the banter with the ole boy!
(757) Scott and Joe…that site is excellent what a great tool.
Joe the layout they did for Jim Gray is similar to what could be done for the memorial points along a route.
The mashup capabilities are very interesting and really transforming maps into community property and enhancing their value exponentially.
(767) I am sure it won’t be as much crying as it there will be when Yahoo! doesn’t deliver next month for you…heh heh! JK!
Glenn! Don’t jinx my Yahoo moolahoo!
(774) Joe you don’t believe in all the mumbo jumbo do you?
🙂
Wow! So much good stuff here! I just love the good stuff!
Jeff – thank you so much for the tea ceremony information, very beautiful, moving, and inspiring…
Joe – Yes, I think closing down the thread on Saturday is a wonderful idea…
However, I also hope you don’t close the thread completely –
it’s come to be such a great community of people – it would be nice to have an open discussion area…
Who knows what it might lead to!
I think closing the thread Sat is a very fitting thing to do, absolutely.
Scott is CNET planning on any web feeds for the memorial? That would be good for people to be able to participate at least in the beginning part.
I am all in favor of closing the comments on Saturday! It will make a great statement about all of you. You couldn’t possibly care less about saving any lives. What really matters to you is a great party to soothe the fears of the negligent Kati Kim. Great bands, lots of good karma. Go for it!
(764) Tharwood that link was very interesting to say the least!
Is Spencer Kim going to show up?
(779) Charles I am sure we can all swig one down in your honor. Of course if you were there, I think I know what they would pour for you – if you need a refresher you can find the link a few hundred posts back!
Maybe you will take the time to reflect on this situation.
Well. I lived in California for many years, I also lived in Japan, Florida and Kansas. So you might say I am from nowhere and everywhere.
Translation: Rootless individual who believes in nothing, so he clings to meaningless incantations. Meanwhile, he does whatever soothes his nerve endings at the moment. Do good, Jeffy. Keep making me laugh at you.
glenn, have a good drunk. Blow some primo weed, too. It’s the Califonrnian thing to do. Maybe Scott Windels will have some, and his little brother can serve the tea ‘n sympathy?
Charles, I hear you will be receiving the masterpiece you commissioned.
James Kim walking hand in hand with James Morrison, Elvis Presley and Jesus in heaven all in brilliant black velvet!
Since of course in your world using your logic all of them caused their deaths of their own negligence.
oh yeah he is planning on hanging it next to his dogs playing poker masterpiece!
“Life is short, but there is always time enough for courtesy.” Ralph W Emerson- I think it was him anyway.
All of ’em but Jesus, who was something of a special case.
(784) Charles sorry to disappoint. I don’t have a predilection for those activities.
At the same time I could care less about what other people do in their personal time…as long as they don’t drive afterward.
On Saturday I will say my daily prayer for James Kim, his relatives and all the affected people from the tragedy and then I will take an extra minute to extol James’s bravery and remember how he set the bar for how determined and tenacious a father needs to be to save their family.
I think I will also try the Wa Kei Sei Jaku (thanks brewdude!) and hug my wife and kids and be thankful once again and embrace and continue to absorb the perspectives that I have learned from all of this.
Charles you can spend Saturday thinking about the following:
He succeeded in his quest and paid the ultimate price for that he will always be remembered, he has created a legacy and for all that he is a hero!
James Kim will be remembered and revered long after you have faded and will only be remembered as a slight aberration, if at all.
James Kim as a dead man will save more lives than you ever will – even silenced James has prevailed over you and your abhorring assessment.
James Kim will save lives? Well, to a certain degree that’s right. He will save lives by serving as an example of stupidity to avoid. He’d save more lives if that example were magnified by a public education campaign.
If James Kim is a hero then so is that drug addicted celebrity who just died. What’s her name? Oh yeah, Anna Nicole Smith. If some teenagers look what passed for her life and decide not to go there, then it helped. Same goes for James Kim. If that’s what you call heroism, I’d say your dreams are hollow.
I think there is a middle ground between Brenda’s Reasonable and Unreasonable person alternatives. While I think the Kims made a number of wrong choices, I can imagine myself facing similar decisions for my own reasons.
I have driven 25 miles of Oregon washboard gravel because I didn’t pay sufficient attention to the difference between gray and black lines on the ODOT map (Sun Pass road).
I have gotten lost trying to take a shortcut through a swamp, instead of taking the long way back to the car. I have also driven through questionable mud holes because I didn’t want to turn back.
I have gotten stuck on a snow drift trying to get to a trailhead (in California off I80).
I have had to backup on narrow mountain roads till I could find a spot wide enough to execute a 10 point turn. I have had to stop on a narrow steep road to move rocks out of the way.
I have had to decide whether to ignore an old ‘road closed ahead’ sign. In some cases I have driven beyond warning signs because I was curious as to why it was closed.
paulj
Glenn – nope, don’t believe in stock mumbo jumbo or even most of the silly analytical chart stuff.
paulj, the point is not and never had been whether James and Kati Kim were uniquely negligent. A lot of people have done stupid things on the road. The point is that the Kims’ negligence shouldn’t be shunted aside by the crowd here out of some misplaced sense of sympathy or decorum.
Not when Oregon’s government is going to be making decisions based on what happened; not when Spencer Kim made several crazy recommendations based on his false and misleading account of events; and not when the massive publicity about the events makes it possible to educate people about responsibility and common sense while traveling.
The people on this web site are against any of that. Kati’s Dad says “the kids made mistakes,” but then goes crazy when anyone other than himself talks about them. The rest of you deem it “cruel” to tell the truth, and you simply don’t care if people wind up dying as a result.
This is the California mentality in neon. Care only about yourself. Lie when it suits your immediate purposes. Kids? What are they?
(794) Charles you will never get it…it just doesn’t matter!
Since part of my family who were transplanted from CA are up saving lives in WA doing SAR, it’s pretty sickening to hear C. denigrate them by virtue of their homestate. They’ve put their money where their mouths are grateful to be of service to a state they’ve long ago adopted as their own. Hopefully they will never encounter his sorry posterior in any of their endeavors.
Maddy, you’re the sickenening one. You’re completely uncaring. You couldn’t care less about anyone’s life but your own.
794/Snarls: I think it is pretty clear to everyone here that the only person who “goes crazy” is you, Snarls…everytime anyone has the audacity to do anything other than buy into your Jim Jones brand of cool-aid you go flippin’ beserk. Kati’s Dad has maintained utmost composure throughout, in sharp contrast to your shrill & endlessly repetitive bleatings.
Go away, Snarls, you’re a bore. Madeleine has more compassion than you’ll have in a thousand lifetimes.
leland stamper, after tonight’s comments do you still have any doubts that Charles Wilson and PacNWer are not one and the same?
It’s the same voice, the same words, the same mentality…
Quotes, you’ve already called me a nazi and the antichrist. Now I’m what, PacNWer? You people!
Paul, we don’t believe Kati Kim was fully forthcoming in her interviews with investigative authorities. I think her father should advise her to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Lisa, if you are more interested in the tea ceremony and live in a major city you can check to see if there is an Urasenke office. I know that they have SF, LA, Portland and Seattle covered on the west coast. I am not sure about midwest offices.
Glenn and Paul, you can write brewdude2112@yahoo.com privatly if you would like to see how futile engaging trolls is. Even polite attempts result in profanity filled replys.
Everyone else, enjoy your saturday.
Do Good
(796) Madeleine I know for a fact you are a caring person.
It seems we are closing in on the nadir with this troll, knave, gramin or whatever you want to call it!
802/Snarls: you disgress and attempt to confuse yet again. You alledged that “Kati’s Dad says “the kids made mistakes,” but then goes crazy when anyone other than himself talks about them.” Show me where he “goes crazy”, I’d really like to see that. Yet another example of you warping the truth in a futile attempt to add credible ingredients to your Jim Jones Kool-Aid….and you have the audacity to call yourself a journalist.
S.F. event to honor Kim for efforts to save family
Family, supporters gathering Saturday in Golden Gate Park
By Julia Prodis Sulek, MEDIANEWS STAFF
Inside Bay Area
Article Last Updated:02/16/2007 02:39:07 AM PST
Even now, 21/2months after the tragic ordeal in Oregons snowy wilderness, mentioning the name James Kim still brings a flicker of recognition to most people who hear it.
Hes the 35-year-old San Francisco man who set out from the familys stranded station wagon in the freezing terrain to try to save his wife and two little daughters, who died in the Big Windy Creek never knowing his family was rescued.
On Saturday, Kims family and friends expect more than 1,000 people to turn out for a public memorial and picnic in San Franciscos Golden Gate Park to thank those who prayed or crossed their fingers that the Kim story would end differently.
The number is just a fraction of the tens of thousands of people who e-mailed during the ordeal from as far away as Sri Lanka, Afghanistan,Guatemala and Korea. They sent their condolences to his rescued wife,Kati, 30, and daughters Penelope, 4, and Sabine, 7 months. James Kim was
an editor at CNET, a San Francisco technology Web site.
What really became very obvious to me is that there but for the grace of God go I or anyone, said Becky Worley, who is helping organize the memorial. Smart people. One wrong turn. That seems crazy to me.
The Kim story also touched people who questioned whether they had Kims fortitude.
Heroism * when does your life take the turn from a guy taking out his garbage to giving his life for his family? Worley asked.
Kims death, too, prompted a critical review of the search and a reassessment of rescue operations across Oregon. Yet even the police under scrutiny feel for the family.
You start to get to know these people, with what people tell you about them, said Lt. Gregg Hastings, the Oregon State Police spokesman whose face became a TV fixture during the search. You get emotionally involved.
The story captivated people across the country like few others. News organization from People Magazine to CNNs Larry King Live had crews in Oregon covering the unfolding saga in late November and early December.
The family became stranded while returning to San Francisco from a Thanksgiving weekend in Seattle. Missing the turnoff from Highway 5 to a major route to the coast, they instead took a treacherous mountain pass and ended up stranded on a little-used logging road. Kati Kim nursed
both her infant and 4-year-old for nine days before they were found Dec. 4. By then, however, her husband had already set out on foot two days earlier. On Dec. 6, James Kims body, overcome by exposure and hypothermia after a 16-mile freezing hike through dense brush and over waterfalls, was found in the Big Windy Creek ravine.
Family and friends are expected to speak at the 1 p.m. service at the Memorial Bandshell and Music Concourse, followed by a picnic and music until sunset. Although Kims
widow, Kati, 30, will attend, she has no plans to address the crowd,organizers say. Kati Kim, who owns two San Francisco boutiques, has refused all requests for interviews, remaining private and protecting her children as she did all those days in the woods.
Shes trying to focus on her kids and her business and trying to get her life back together, said Worley, a former co-worker of James Kim.
Kims father, Spencer Kim, is not scheduled to speak, either, but he has been publicly critical of the search operation that failed to find his son in time.
In a January letter to The Washington Post, Spencer Kim wrote that while he is eternally grateful for the efforts of the search-and-rescue teams and volunteers, the search was plagued by confusion, communication breakdowns and failures of leadership.
In the aftermath of the search, the sheriffs department of Josephine County, where the search was based, requested a review by the Oregon State Sheriffs Association. That group produced a 23-page report that criticized the search as being marred by frequent confusion and a lack of urgency.
Hopefully, there are real positives that should come out of this, Hastings said this week.
However, he said, even the best operations dont always guarantee success.
You wish you could bat a thousand, he said, but no one is found alive in every situation.
The Kim situation was especially difficult. The search area began as 16,000 square miles and wasnt narrowed down until a wireless company employee discovered a cell phone ping from the Kims phone had registered at a cell tower in southern Oregon. The weather was foggy, grounding
helicopters. The search terrain in the ravine was perilous and slow-going.
On Dec. 6, police officers choked up when they gave the news that James Kim was found dead.
There was a connection in here * and there was a connection for many people, the Oregon State Police, the sheriffs agencies, the helicopter company, volunteer searchers and some of the reporters there, Hastings
said.
This weekend one of the Oregon detectives on the case will be visiting Kati Kim in San Francisco. They forged a bond during the ordeal,Hastings said. Its uncertain whether the detective will attend the memorial.
If we cant be there in person, Hastings said, I know many of us will be there in thought.
Thanks for the post news…
Tragedies spur legislator to try to prevent others
Safety bills – Rep. John Lim has links to the Kim family and a lost Mt. Hood climber
Friday, February 16, 2007
MICHELLE COLE
The Oregonian
SALEM — In a sad coincidence, Rep. John Lim has connections with two families involved in high-profile tragedies in Oregon late last year, and the events have spurred him to propose changes in state law.
The Gresham Republican is a close friend of the father of James Kim, a California man who became lost on a Southern Oregon back road with his family on a Thanksgiving trip. After days stuck in the snow, Kim set out on foot to find help for his wife and two young daughters. His family was rescued after an extensive search, but James Kim was found dead in a rugged canyon two days later.
Through connections with the Korean American community, Lim also knows the mother of Jerry “Nikko” Cooke, who traveled to Oregon from New York in December to scale Mount Hood with two other experienced climbers.
The group ran into severe weather. One climber, Kelly James, was found dead in a snow cave. Searchers could not locate Cooke or his companion, Brian Hall. They are presumed dead.
“It has affected me a lot,” Lim said Thursday, testifying before the House Judiciary Committee.
The panel held a public hearing on House Bill 2511, one of the proposals Lim is sponsoring this session in response to the Kim family and Hood climber tragedies. He has introduced three bills; others are being drafted.
House Bill 2511, which has nine co-sponsors and bipartisan support, would make it a second-degree criminal misdemeanor for anyone to tamper with a sign or gate intended to restrict public access to a road closed to public use. The penalty: up to one year in prison and a $6,250 fine.
Whether that occurred in the case of the Kim family is uncertain.
Faced with icy and snowy conditions on Southern Oregon’s Bear Camp Road, James Kim turned down a remote logging road. Bureau of Land Management officials said normal procedure wasn’t followed and a gate that should have closed the logging road for the winter was not shut.
In an opinion column published in The Oregonian last month, James Kim’s father, Spencer H. Kim, said good signs and a closed gate “would have prevented the ill-fated turn that led them into a maze of logging roads and across treacherous terrain that travelers never should have had access to in the first place.”
Kim could not be reached for comment Thursday.
“The Kim family has contacted me and asked how I can help,” Lim told the Judiciary committee. “We believe this tragedy has taught us many lessons.”
The State Department of Lands and the Oregon Forest Industries Council, an industry trade association, also testified in support of House Bill 2511.
“The reality is there’s a lot of things that happen to people who don’t know the woods,” said Mike Dykzeul, director of forest protection for the Forest Industries Council. But, Dykzeul added, “people are lured to places where they should not go.”
Lim says some of his ideas face opposition and may not become law.
For example, a bill requiring climbers who go beyond the timber line to carry electronic signaling devices in winter is already being rewritten even before its first public hearing next week. The new version will apply only to climbers who ascend beyond 10,000 feet on Mount Hood. The requirement would not kick in until July 1, 2010.
Gov. Ted Kulongoski has asked state agencies and others involved in the Kim search to review the after-incident reports and return with recommendations by the end of March — to allow time for legislative action, if necessary.
The task force will review state statutes and proposed legislation, Kulongoski spokeswoman Anna Richter Taylor said Thursday. “Mr. Lim’s bills will be part of those conversations.”
808/News: Regarding the above post, specifically the section about – “The State Department of Lands and the Oregon Forest Industries Council…testified in support of House Bill 2511.”
I was speaking to the BLM permit office in Rand (near Galice) several months ago about this story and they indicated their understanding was the spur road was gated for a different reason than any that have come forth in the press, that it had to do with preventing access to stands of timber that are vulnerable to highly damaging diseases that are prevalent in neighboring states. I have been unable to verify this, but given the endorsements above perhaps there is some truth to it.
It is worth keeping in mind that the BLM is mainly concerned with managing resources like timber, grazing, and minerals. Recreation is a distinct second in most districts. The Rogue River running in this district is something of an exception.
So it is logical that many BLM gates have more to do with protecting those resources, than with protecting the general public.
While locals such as John James encountered lost tourists down BLM 34-8-36, this area was not, by all appearances, a problem spot for officials, whether with the BLM or the Sheriff’s office. The SAR coordinator had not been down the road. The deputy under contract to BLM, looked at the road, but lowered it in his search priorities when he only saw snowmobile tracks.
In the Washington forests that I am familiar with, gates are seldom used to close snow covered roads, or confusing areas. Official closures have to do more with protecting wildlife, protecting streams, unsafe road conditions such as slides and washouts, recent forest fires (and deadly snags), and active logging. Some roads are also closed because of high levels of vandalism or dumping.
A road or trail is seldom closed just because someone gets lost in the area. Something like that may happen once every 5 or 10 years, where as vandalism can be a problem every year. Even National Parks, which place a higher priority on recreation, are more likely to close areas to protect the resources, than to keep people from getting lost.
paulj
RE: Laws such as carrying locators.
There is an interesting mathematical “value of a human life” approach that many find offensive but it is actually done *often* when US Govt agencies have to decide on road and product safety measures.
They value a human life at X million, and then look at the cost to save a life using the new measures. For road work this number is about 2.7 million. ie if the Feds can show a project costing 20 million will save ten lives they’ll consider it worth doing (2 millino per life saved), but if that same 20 million project only will save two lives they will NOT do it (10 million per life saved).
Many don’t like this, but the politically motivated alternatives tend to allocate resources to areas where we save a few lives (e.g. coal plant smokestack scrubbers or airline safety) rather than many we could save if we put the money to better use (e.g. inner city health care or in-home fire alarm programs)
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/06/12/what-is-your-life-worth-to-the-dept-of-transportation-about-27-million/
(811) Joe yeah like politicizing Global Warming so they can blow trillions of taxpayers dollars!
Glenn – it does seem to me that we allocated public money more along political lines than according to common sense. To avoid wasting money it’s good to come up with the cost of the measure and the benefits of the measure. You can’t always do this as accurately as would be best to make decisions, but that does not mean it’s not a better approach than politicking for dollars.
Kims father, Spencer Kim, is not scheduled to speak, either
I wonder if he is “scheduled to attend” — and if not, why not. I think there is more to this story than Mrs. Kim or her father has let on so far.
[i]House Bill 2511, which has nine co-sponsors and bipartisan support, would make it a second-degree criminal misdemeanor for anyone to tamper with a sign or gate intended to restrict public access to a road closed to public use. The penalty: up to one year in prison and a $6,250 fine.[/i]
H.B. 2511 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6
814/815: Lots of rehashed distracting obfuscation, no answer to my 805 post.
H.B. 2511 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the events
Don’t confuse good ideas that were spawned and inspired by the Kim Tragedy from specific items that would have prevented the Kims from going missing or found them sooner.
The Kim Tragedy was a very unique set of circumstances that may not be repeated. However it brought to light many themes with SAR, vandalism, public lands, credit info, missing persons, technology, etc, etc.
James Kim would be pleased to know that his untimely death led so many new people, unfamiliar with the rescue landscape, to think broadly about ways to innovate in SAR and missing persons searches.
Joe, couldn’t agree more. The silo thinking exhibited by some doesn’t allow them to see past their own agenda, and surely the many areas you cited will be improved as a result of the issues that came up during this incident and aftermath. Some of the spin off issues will no doubt prevent other types of needless injury or death.
Maddy ‘n Joe, the problem is that you have offered nothing whatsoever by way of ideas that has anything to do with the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6. Not one single thing. You can’t bring yourselves to do it, because anything meaningful must start from a truth that you find too cruel to speak of.
Madeleine silos are a great place to store manure!
“led so many new people, unfamiliar with the rescue landscape, to think broadly about ways to innovate in SAR and missing persons searches.”
but will these individuals, unfamiliar with SAR methods, come up with good ideas, or just kick up a lot of useless dust?
For example, what if the statement read:
‘many new people, unfamiliar with medical science, thinking broadly about ways to innovate in medical care and surgery’?
Yes, there is a place for new ideas, but often when someone new enters a field they end up reinventing old or discarded ones.
paulj
Just a little story from Kansas. After work today I was driving home. In the Snow. Now, having grown up in areas where snow is not common, my snow driving skills are not yet at Eskimo level. The roads were sanded and the snow was heavy and you know what. I was concentration so hard on figuring out where my darn lane was I fail to remember seeing any of the signs. For all who think that driving in unfamiliar conditions is no excuse to miss a sign; think again.
The drive home was slow, slippery and not fun. But hey maybe I should have just stayed at school for the weekend (NOT!)
Charles, for someone that thinks they are so superior your obtuse approach to winning an argument just polarizes everyone and makes other intelligent posters here become taciturn!
No one is listening here or over on your site, don’t you think it is time to forsake this argument?
Your hypocrisy, fabrications and impudent behavior will only guarantee you a place of infamy here.
How much longer before you completely implode?
Signal and anti-signal,
yin and yang,
however much the trolls
meep angrily into silos
and flamers flame the vacuum,
all things move in harmony.
But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea with accepting it.
– Aristotle
823/ Glenn – so sorry to correct you, but anyone that full of hot air is much more likely to EXplode than implode. Add in all the methane wafting up off the excrement and it makes a cataclysmic blast almost inevitable. 😛
[825] Important typo!
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it.
– Aristotle
The roads were sanded and the snow was heavy and you know what. I was concentration so hard on figuring out where my darn lane was I fail to remember seeing any of the signs. For all who think that driving in unfamiliar conditions is no excuse to miss a sign; think again.
How about four signs, two map warnings and a verbal warning? They must have been concentrating pretty hard.
Yadda, yadda, yadda…
Brewdude 822- can you get your growler filled at Freestate or am I guessing wrong about the school?
Leland, my growlers would be filled at Little Apple, Freestate is about 90 minutes down the road. In other news; still trying to train myself to proofread BEFORE I post 🙂
826 Paul, LOL
Brewdude, I lived in Lindsborg and drove clear to Lawrence for some oatmeal stout. Never been to Little Apple but it’s easy to guess where it’s at. The thing I miss most about KS is those spring storms. Small world.
832/Glenn – the good news is, when he finally blows, he’ll fertilize fields for miles around his location.
834 – ’cause we know what he’s full of….
Well Mr. Stamper, I would love for those spring storms to hit. am getting a wee tired of the snow, and the starts for my garden are filling my sun room and need to go outside in about 4 weeks. problem isthe 4 inches of snow on the garden outside 🙂
Brewdude, where I’m at a little snow on the ground with some sunshine would be alright about now. I think I miss KS more than I realised.
where you at?
Just north of Booz Bay OR. That’s local for Coos Bay.
Ahh, did my undergard in Humboldt. I miss the grey and the fog a little (but mostly the natural beauty)
undergrad as well. that undergard was tough stuff I tell you.
Yeah, nothing like the redwoods.
839/Leland: Am going to spend a few nights this summer at Sunset Bay State Park, just S. of your location. Have heard good things from others who have been there. (sorry to jump in)
Paul, yeah, there’s a campground right there. I think they rent yurts. Are you going surfing?
Leland – Surf?? – I’d get mistaken for a walrus and be eaten by a Great White, no, sadly don’t know how. Whitewater of the river variety is what I do well. We have a yurt – kids in tow and all that.
Cool. The campground at Sunset Bay looks like a good spot, wind protected, most important thing here in the summer. Lots of stuff to do around here. I guess I’m starting to take it all for granted if I’m missing Kansas, haha.
Yurts, now THAT is californian 🙂 Smile when you say that.
There are three really beautiful coves at Cape Arago. In the summer the two on the south side are wind protected. Your kids will love it.
Am spending a week touring the entire S. Oregon coast from Cape Lookout south all the way to Crescent City…got lucky and managed to procure Yurts at ever state park we are staying at (makes the wife VERY happy). Woman at parks reservations who helped me mentioned Cape Arago and how beautiful it is.
If you head back north on 199 plan a stop in Kerby if you like woodworking. It’s an interesting place.
If you’ve never been there, sea lion caves is worth seeing. Cape Perpetua is one of the best views.
762 Thanks Joe.
Cranberry Sweets in old town Bandon- free candy!
Have not been South of Florence much so am looking forward to it. Cape Perpetua is stunning!
I’ve camped at Cape Perpetua (actually at the FS campground just to the north), and Harris Beach SP. Only problem with Harris Beach is that there is lumber mill next door, and you can hear tractor noise at all hours.
I’ve also passed through Crescent City, but camped some way up the US 199. Further south, Gold Bluffs is a very nice campground, right on the shore. No yurts, though.
paulj
855 / Lovely, Harris Beach is our next stop after Sunset Bay, 2 nights of tractor noise to finish our trip?? – say it ain’t so !!
Well everyone. It is a cold night here and I am 2 time zones closer to GMT than Joe Duck so I will make my sign off now. I hope you all have a good Saturday, what ever your location. I spoke breifly with my Parents and my brother. They are both busy with last minute details for tomorrow. I hope they get though it all without too much frazzle 🙂 Peace and blessings to one and ALL!
Do Good.
Second those ideas that Cape Perpetua and Sea Lion Caves are great, and consider the hike to “Devils Churn” near Perpetua. The water rushes in to a narrow channel which is always cool. If the tide is right and waves are big it’s even more spectacular.
Paulj when did you camp last at Harris Beach SP?
I think the last time I camped there was maybe 5 years and it was great. I’ve been at the Harris Beach Welcome Center every year and don’t remember any noise problems but maybe I just have forgotten.
there is a place for new ideas, but often when someone new enters a field they end up reinventing old or discarded ones
A good point paulj but one thing I’m now certain about is that many agencies are underutilizing the networking power of the internet to collect and distribute information. Technology changes so fast that *even the top, pure tech companies* fail to optimize every available technological avenue.
Conventional companies and agencies still make the *huge* mistake of thinking that expensive, complex solutions are needed when they can now use online free tools for perhaps 75% of the tasks they are seeking to optimize.
Brewdude thanks for checking in and hoping for a fine celebration tomorrow!
Admittedly I was in a tent, on the edge of the camp closest to the mill (which is across the highway to the northeast). A yurt might have be more insulated and quieter. Still, I suspect I would have preferred Loeb, which is inland a ways. The beach and offshore rocks are Harris are nice. I’m thinking of traveling through the area this May, but will mostly use forest service and blm campgrounds.
paulj
It was May 2002 that we were a Harris beach. Noise could also depend the particular activity at the mill. If I recall correctly, it was the backing beep of some machine, probably sorting logs, that I heard most.
But since the campground is quite popular in the summer, the noise must not be enough to bother most campers.
paulj
paulj thx, and you were there more recently than I was. Loeb is very popular but I haven’t camped there. I really like the Ocean around Harris Beach and many of the sites are nice, with large sites and large bushes surrounding them. However it tends to get chilly there evenings, even in summer.
Indian Sands is north on 101 – a superb hike down to the sea with some great views, pounding surf, and beautiful sandstone. However no beach access there I can recall, but it’s short walk.
Wow…I just read through some private emails from Charles. None of you would believe what he says in a private email or maybe you would.
I had written a very long post describing in great detail my thoughts about this horrible person but I have decided not to waste everyone’s time with it.
Also Dee and Brenda you really should find out who you are befriending – I can’t believe any resonable person would ever have anything to do with him.
Joe in all fairness I urge to re-consider completely banning Charles. The emails are far worse than what is posted here and Charles opinions about who owns what and what he can and cannot post is just not reasonable.
The forum can only improve without his interaction and quite frankly I would be in full support of eliminating every post he has made.
Even if we stop responding he won’t stop posting but he needs to be stopped.
It is like entering a trust based relationship with North Korea? Would you do it?
Conventional companies and agencies still make the *huge* mistake of thinking that expensive, complex solutions are needed when they can now use online free tools for perhaps 75% of the tasks they are seeking to optimize.
Says the guy who wants to put WiFi throughout the wilderness, do away with the credit card privacy laws, change all the warning signs in Oregon, lock up the wilderness and spend all kinds of money on multiple inquests about something to which the most effective answer would involve spending virtually no additional money.
You people!!
Hey, post the e-mails. Fine by me. Now, don’t construe the following as an objection but merely as a quip: Jeffy, weren’t you the one who whined to me about my having shared your e-mails? How quickly you Californians forget what you “stand” for.
So everyone knows, I bluntly insulted Jeffy’s pretenses at Eastern religion. I called him a shithead, and I even used the “F” word. O! The horror! Come on, I’m a nazi and the antichrist, or so you people tell me. I’ve got a reputation to uphold.
Charles it is bad form to post in public a private email – you did that to Jeffery. That is all he complained about.
Why don’t you post the complete thread of your emails on your site? I would bet if you posted the actual email thread anybody that is a reasonable person would just walk away.
You truly are a sick man and you have serious, serious issues. This is way beyond being a troll.
And…you are PacNWer for sure or his brother.
glenn, I think I force the Californians here (in spirit or residence, it doesn’t matter) to post my profanity in all its vulgar glory. Shocking, I’ll tell you. Almost as bad as smoking. Tobacco, that is.
Well, I don’t want anyone to asphyxiate themselves from the suspense of it all, so here’s a representative message to Jeffy:
“Your study is eastern culture is undoubtedly the typical crapola that American wackjobs indulge themselves in. Look, shithead, you don’t care about anything but yourself and the next party.”
Maybe a little harsh, but so is being called a nazi and the antichrist. I never said I was anyone’s pincushion.
Joe that is Charles’s biggest fear – to be redacted.
Charles your emails go way beyond that. I cannot possibly begin to describe the myriad of lurid statements in the emails I’ve read.
It also seems clear that you are some form of a racist and that is probably why you abhor James Kim.
I thought you were avarice but that would was giving you too much credit. This situation is far simpler than that.
Joe just needs to inhibit your ability to post and your world will crumble.
Since your site is climbing so well with traffic why don’t you go over there and play in it? The traffic that is!
869, Once again Charles twists the truth again and selects a subset of what suits his purposes.
Charles you are just a fraud – it is that simple!
glenn, if I’m the antichrist and a nazi, isn’t it obligatory that I be a racist? But to be serious, I think the extent of my so-called “racism” was to tell Jeffy that his Eastern culture gig is phony. Which it is. Along with his incantations to “do good.”
I think I told him that he wouldn’t know a good deed if it slithered up behind him and bit him on the ass. I thought that was a good insult. It sure beats “you have issues,” doesn’t it? Anyway, I do have issues at the moment. I’m hungry, and I’m going to dinner.
See ya later, alligators. Have fun at the party tomorrow. Tell us all about Spencer Kim, would you? I’m sure he’ll be there holding Mrs. Kim’s hand all the way.
Hey Charles don’t choke on it…really.
It sounds like this is someone who is acting as a very hateful person at this time (trying to give credit to the idea that this person could change if it decided it wanted to).
I would like to see examples of how this is not a very hateful person.
Are there any?
Scott and Kati’s family I sincerely hope tomorrow delivers what each individual expects from the memorial.
Hopefully this can be step as people begin to move on and I hope that Kati and the kids continue to receive the amazing support bestowed onto them.
Wish I could be out there in person to show support but know I will be doing it here with my family.
Also wish that CNET provided a webcast of the event!
Anyway god bless and be strong!
And I really do think he’s one and the same as Pac for sure – he’s said so many of the same, often virtually, or identical things. And exhibiting the same patterns.
He tried to clean it up a bit to be more respectable for the website efforts, et. al, but it’s all unraveling now.
Couldn’t hold it together.
I still hope he could turn it around like Scrooge or the Grinch.
Charles shows up after Pac has had his injection.
863 Glenn, I have to agree. Charles Wilson has revealed himself as a very mean and destructive personality and he has become a major drag and embarrassment on this forum. Frankly, it always disappoints me to see that kind of human behavior. I just cannot understand. I tend to believe that the pathology is genetic in origin.
Joe in all fairness I urge to re-consider completely banning Charles.
I’d like to hear from several more people about this. I’ve tried to run this as as a conversation that I do not directly control, so I don’t take banning people lightly. Comment here or send mails to me: jhunkins@gmail.com
Perhaps the best “solution” is to move the talk about Charles over to his and Dee’s Kim Tragedy site.
875 I would love it if we (3 exceptions of course) could all meet at the James Kim Memorial tomorrow. I sincerely appreciate the vast majority of the participants who have contributed to this forum. I think it has given me needed perspective and it has helped me cope personally in many ways.
This tragedy has certainly illuminated some of the best examples of human concern and kindness. I know Kati is exceedingly greatful.
At least all the good folk herein will be there tomorrow in spirit.
879 Joe – Since you asked -Ban Charles. He is ruining your blog. He has his own forum to ruin. You can accomplish more with this blog without him.
879 “Perhaps the best “solution” is to move the talk about Charles over to his and Dee’s Kim Tragedy site.”
Sounds like a good idea. They need the traffic. Let the free speech be perpetuated there.
[875] Nice, Glenn.
All my best wishes to friends and family too.
As James was the celebration of his life, so should
he be always…
And to have a day to commemorate and celebrate that publicly is a most fittingly beautiful thing..
[879]
I would not mind at all if he were banned. I also would not go to his site because I do not want to support him or his efforts in any way. Here it was also just a matter of not wanting to support his efforts.
The only reason why I left the Scrooge/Grinch cause open was because I hate to condemn people beyond the point of hope, even if they haven’t behaved deservingly. (Not that
anyone else is – I just wanted to explain why I mentioned
those examples!)
It certainly is tiresome, tedious, and not fitting for family and friends to have to bear much/any longer. For
I fear it may just get worse, if it does not go away.
Joe, with all due respect, moving the “talk” about Charles to his and Dee’s site would not work, as I doubt it would get posted, and nobody wants their personal info in the clutches of a site where the operators are unknown.
He would continue to wreak havoc on this site in any event. I think we’ve endured enough, tried every way to be fair, to no avail. I say we have a CW-free zone where discussion can take place without his constant harangues, and if you want him to be allowed, give him an “All Charles All the Time” page where he can talk to himself 24/7 without directly insulting anyone.
Good heavens, I hoped that by the time I got back (been in hosp having surgery) Snarly Charly would be long gone.
Kati’s Dad, I will be there in spirit.
I vote “ban.” “Free speech” is one thing, but hate speech/fighting words are not even protected by the 1st Amendment. Why should they be protected on a personal blog? Delete with a clear conscience, in my opinion.
But if he is voted off the island, then what?
I vote to send him to his own sty to wallow around in.
Glenn, after reading some of his offline stuff I concede he and PacNWer are likely one and the same. Too many parallels, too much hate, no rationality.
First they came for Charles, and I did nothing, because I didn’t like what Charles said.
I have not been able to be around for a while, I’ve just checked in very quickly several times. Have had a few more minutes this eve. & am very sadden to see this has turned into ‘all about Charles’ in one way or another.
Gayle, I hope you are doing well, so sorry to hear you had to have surgery. Just got past that hurdle, myself.
Frances, it’s all Charles, all the time.
Leland, this being a personal blog, I don’t see where Charles has the right to come here and be abusive. He’s exercising his free speech at his own site, which we are free to visit or not.
892 Gayle- that is true.
893- should have been Madeleine, sorry
890/Leland: Those who have been around this blog for awhile know I defend the right for all to speak. It is with great reluctance that I deem it best that Snarls be banned, but there are limits to what constitutes reasonable dissent.
As Madeleine points out, it is not like he does not have another venue. Joe has been exceedingly tolerant. He has warned Charles/PacNWer numerous times, indeed bent over backwards to accomodate him within reason. Charles/Pac is far, far beyond reason and it is extremely doubtful he is truly interested in a true debate, he just wants to cause trouble. He has been caught in lies numerout times, half truths numerous times, and when pressed on such always weaves and dodges and fails to give direct answers. It is time for him to go and his repulsive vitriol with him !
Gayle – I’m very sorry to hear that, I hope all is well and all my best for a speedy recovery !
Glenn – do I have to eat a sock ? I can’t remember what I agreed to.
Paul-895 I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. He is definitely at odds here. He can be caustic and uncouth.
Gayle hope you are doing well! Best to a speedy recovering
897, Paul you don’t have to eat a sock…np…just remember I called it from the start. 🙂
900/ I humbly concede you were right – but he wove a wicked web in an effort to deceive. You have to admit that censoring oneself is either 1. clever or 2. a sign of someone who is deeply disturbed. I’ll take door number two.
Here is one for ya Paul…what if Brenda is Pac too!!!…lol Just kidding!
Dee you must feel really proud of your partner by now!
There was a split personality from the beginning. Anybody remember who that was? Hmmmmm
902 – Glenn, I’ve wondered the very same thing.
903 – D.H./djdee/Dee? Are they the same?
Thanks for the feedback folks.
Remember that later tonight and tomorrow the comments will be closed in honor of James Kim. They’ll reopen Sunday.
Goodnight Joe, and thank you for all that you do.
Best wishes to Kati’s dad & family and esp to Kati and the kids. I hope tomorrow is all that it sounds like it will be and that it helps your family find the beginnings of closure for this tragedy. Our thoughts are with you.
😀 Attention 😀
In honor of James Kim the comments here will be closed all day Saturday February 17.
I know I’m speaking for almost everybody who has participated here wishing the family all the best, and remembering James Kim as a great father, husband, and friend.
😀 Attention 😀
Comments are open again and here are some links to Memorial information:
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=5044110
I’ve asked Charles Wilson to stop commenting here.
Please make no comments about Charles Wilson or they’ll be deleted.
A story in today’s Oregonian on the specific impacts of the loss of timber money, something sure to impact SAR in Josephine, Curry and other counties:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1171697161273270.xml&coll=7
Also, a lost hiker in Curry County:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1171779973196480.xml&coll=7
Here is an article with some nice photos of the tribute. Unfortunately I ended up not being able to make it. The weather was absolutely beautiful yesterday, no small feat for San Francisco in February. It felt like Mother Nature was apologizing.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/02/17/state/n162926S97.DTL&hw=james+kim&sn=001&sc=1000
I spoke to my parents briefly and they said the memorial was very nice. The weather was perfect, and Kati did give a few words, as did Jame’s Sister. By all accounts the day went very well.
Joy, I love what you said about Mother Nature apologizing, that is such a beautiful image of what the weather must have been like yesterday.
Joy’s “it felt like Mother Nature apologizing” …..very neat. kinda like we’re all in this together. nice inclusive feeling.
an aside…. some of you may enjoy this article about Moscow-born Sergey Brin, cofounder of Google. I found it interesting & inspiring. In the spirit of James Kim and his family too I felt.
http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2007/2007-02/200702-BrinFeature.html
Thank you all for the links. Looks like it was a beautiful day, and I love what you said, too, Joy about the weather. I hope that Kati found some comfort in seeing in such a concrete way how much so many people care. The folded cranes were beautiful and such a nice touch, too.
Although some strides have been made to substitute Evidence Based Medicine for the whims and hunches and ‘always done it that way’ of usual medicine, we do not yet have Evidence Based Public Spending Policies or Practices. And we would always be beset by arguments over the evidence anyway.
The “cost of saving a life” is subject to the same whims and contradictory evidence that any other allocation of tax money involves.
912 Joy well said.
916 Kip that was a very interesting article and whenever I think I knew everything about Google I then learn something new. Interesting and well worth reading – thanks.
918 Fools Gold it is such a shame that politicians really seem to mess everything up – democracy is such a cool thing, but elected officials are getting more and more sloppy!
There are basically no qualification requirements for our elected officials except they have access to enough money to mislead voters in a campaign to get elected and then they get the priviledge of spending all of our money!
Stockdale was right! 🙂
Paul – the lost coast hiker has been found alive:
http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/02/hiker_found_alive_after_two_ni.html
I hadn’t even heard about this until your note above.
921 Joe that is great news!
A bit longer article in the Curry Pilot on the hiker, with particular mention of CAP involvement.
http://www.currypilot.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=14522
Yes, great news and it sure looked like a smooth and fast SAR over there.
http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/02/18/connolly.kim.memorial.affl&wm=10
925, Dr. Flemming thanks for the link.
Your daughter is pretty brave to get up there like that.
It is clear that she is carrying a large burden of sadness – it was tough for me to watch I just can’t imagine how that impacts all of you. You never want to see your child in pain.
I thought Eva’s comments were quite nice. Family is everything and I for one was glad to hear her speak of James as a hero. There aren’t enough heroes in our world these days.
Glenn,
Eva was very close to James. Our son Chevy was also there, he and James were also very close. I think everyone who knew James liked him.
Kati had not intended to speak, but I’m glad she did. I image it will be her only public appearance. The little girls were there, but it appears they took care to minimize their exposure to lenses. Kati worked very hard to put it all together.
We are hoping life for Kati and the girls can normalize fairly rapidly now that the Memorial is over.
Just back from Curry County, actually got called at 8am this morning from my Lt. Rowland as Curry County asked for air and ground assistance from Jackson County (first time ever). I was airborne by 8:30am with my spotter Randy Pace and the new handheld FLIR (forward looking infrared camera) I purchased to also have available on my helicopter since the James Kim search when I did not have one on board. I used it in the Ellen Miller search on Mt. Ashland a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately she had died during night before we could get to her in the morning. Well, guess what, we located “Chris” with the camera several miles into an awfully rugged and virgin canyon, barely alive. I was able to land on a small gravel bar across the now high flow creek. My spotter, Randy Pace crossed the stream with my survival gear and food/water, Chris was soaking wet, could not walk, nor feel his hands and feet. I instructed Randy to carefully remove Chris’s clothing and redress him and use his own body heat to help gently warm him up. While this was taking place I radioed the Curry County Sheriff SAR folks and gave them coordinates and the location of a higher logging spur and asked them to send a team down into the ravine with ropes and a litter. It took nearly two hours but six hardy folks showed up at the creek bank, crossed over the stream with a safety line, then carried Chris across the swift water to my helicopter where I lifted him to a waiting ambulance at the command post on the Chetco River. Then I made several flights back into the canyon and airlifted all the rescuers back to command.
Without the camera we would not have spotted Chris, he was in all dark green gear, soaking wet, laying by creeks edge at the base of those 200 foot tall trees in the steep, rugged Southern Oregon coast range. There is no doubt he would not have made it another night, he said he figured he was done for until he saw my helicopter and then wasn’t sure we saw him, he could not stand up.
Agency cooperation is alive and well, boundaries are torn down, we will help each other inspite of budget cuts and all. The teamwork was flawless………….wish I would have gotten the call yesterday though, maybe would have saved a cold wet night.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Emily at 712) said: Brenda, I think I am a Resonable Person. I don’t think I would have made the same choices in the same situation. However, even though I’m a Resonable Person, I KNOW I am not immune to making a series of bad decisions that end up in tragedy. (Actually, that’s part of being a Reasonable Person in the first place.) Huge distinction.
The Reasonable Person Standard is always a tough subject in torts classes, because nobody is always reasonable and few people have all of the information that they need to make a reasonable decision. The RM standard is essentially unobtainable in practice but it is a starting point.
And then there is the concept of contributory negligence – perhaps the State may have been at fault, but a State that recognizes contributory negligence (maybe not Oregon) might find that the Kim Family contributed to their own predicament.
I agree that nobody is immune to making bad decisions. However, something more kicks in when you are responsible for the life of another human being. My map and aerial photo reading time has convinced me that no reasonable person would have continued to drive that far down BLM 34-8-36 without realizing that something was seriously wrong.
Randy thanks for dropping in here with the inside scoop – outstanding work by you and Randy Pace as well as Curry SAR! Also very nice to hear the new FLIR worked and that the agencies communications are smooth.
Do you think providing more handheld FLIRs would have a high return on investment. I get the idea that most SAR groups don’t have these?
Kati’s Dad–Thanks for the link. It is nice to put a voice to a face. Kati and her sister-in-law and James’s friends who spoke do seem immensely sad and my heart goes out to all of them.
(928) That is great, Randy! Congrats.
Charles Wilson at 741) said: And there’s the issue of privacy of phone records and credit card information. Det. Weinstein at the very least was highly misleading on that issue, and Spencer Kim’s suggestion to do away with privacy protections is just crazy. No one discussed any of that other than myself.
Somewhere in the OSSR, I read that the Kim Family obtained a court order to obtain access to James & Kati Kim’s financial records. Do we KNOW or do we ASSUME that this information was communicated to the Oregon authorities in a timely manner? Even their most ardent defenders must surely admit that Mr. Spencer Kim was somewhat less than fully communicative with the Oregon authorities.
Perhaps you should look into this California court order to see if the PPD may have had legal authority that they didn’t know about.
CW at 874 said Kims father, Spencer Kim, is not scheduled to speak, either.
I wonder if he is “scheduled to attend” — and if not, why not. I think there is more to this story than Mrs. Kim or her father has let on so far.
As we know now, Mr. Spencer Kim did not attend his Son’s memorial service. I saw that Ms. Eva Kim spoke, thereby eliminating one of my suspects for the Christmas Weekend Scandal. But one does wonder how Mr. Spencer Kim is doing these days. He refused to cooperate with the OSSR and as far as I can determine, Mr. Spencer Kim never communicated with the PPD and it will be interesting to see if he cooperates with the Governor.
The handheld FLIR cameras are very effective, especially from the air looking down through heavy foliage, even during daylight hours. They cost around $10,000.00, hence expensive for SAR units. I have used loaners from the various fire districts in the past, but certain models aren’t as effective from the air, so I bought one for my helicopter (then asked forgiveness from my wife), after using one to save Chris’s life today, my wife has forgiven me. Thank God!!!
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Randy, what a fine job, the adrenaline must still be going strong after a rescue like that! The FLIR cameras sound like they’re a worthwhile investment, but too expensive for most units even before the federal budget cuts that may be coming.
Again, great job, and how lucky that you had purchased the camera!
Good job Randy!
Drove back from San Francisco last night after the James Kim Memorial. It was a great party with belly dancers, drummers, and perfect weather. Had a great talk with Eva, Scott Nelson, Kati, and Sabine (Penelope was moving faster than I was as all 4 year olds do). Sandy, I tried to find Chevy with Scott’s help but he was lost in the crowd. There was a great group of people there and the future looks bright for everyone.
Randy Jones, thank you for all you do.
Kip 916- One thing about the article, it mentions Google being so much higher priced than Microsoft, but MSFT has been split several times. I think an original share of MSFT would now be worth around $8000.00. Not that it matters.
933…
Concerning cost of FLIR cameras:
I just came across the site for Red Shift Corp. that keeps talking about low-cost thermal imaging but never gives any examples. Anyone know if low cost systems actually do exist?
Joe as predicted in my email to you earlier…just watch.
🙂
933 – Randy…thanks for your efforts you really make a difference. Kudos to you! I am sure Chris is very thankful for your purchase!
935, John glad you could spend some time with Kati and the kids especially not from your copter. Thanks for the report.
I watched a small part of the memorial from the different news services it looked like it was well done.
Charles at 864 says) Says the guy who wants to put WiFi throughout the wilderness,
I don’t necessarily see this as a bad idea. We can see that inefficient communications hampered the Josephine Co SAR search. The JoCo sheriff has its communications system, the Forest Service has its communications system, the OANG and State Patrol has its own, and so forth. In Washington (and presumably in Oregon), the various police agencies can coordinate their communications, but that would not have helped the Kim Family during the week of November 25.
THe cell companies do not put cell towers in remote areas because it isn’t cost-effective. To put a communications site in a remote area, you must consider power and the need to communicate with the site. It takes a lot of engineering to choose the proper location with respect to the rest of your cell network and the best site might be an environmental nightmare. The only way to accomplish this economically is to provide tax incentives and regulatory relief for cell companies who provide cell service in wilderness areas. The same thing would apply to Wi-Fi and both would provide a good backup for regular police communications. Even the guys in the OANG Blackhawk used cell phones to communicate.
A simple, old-fashioned CB radio would have allowed the Kim Family to communicate. CB uses frequencies around 30 megahertz, and the waves tend to bounce around a lot and travel long distances. If you have ever listened to a CB radio, there are lots of people talking and listening on the CB band. It is a very busy place. If the Kim Family had transmitted emergency messages, someone somewhere would have heard them and called their local police. It is somewhat ironic that James Kim might have been rescued by the old technology that he worked so hard to eliminate.
933-
Randy! That is so incredibly cool and awesome! 😀
That is so exciting! I was writing for a while on the blog about how I was interested in the heat sensing cameras helping more and more in the future in SAR, and I did a little research about how they could be used even during the day, but no one on the blog really picked up on the topic and it never really went anywhere. I felt like I was talking to myself – even though I was so excited! And eventually I gave up, and wondered if everyone else thought I was stargazing…
So the fact that it really helped save a life so soon is so tremendously exciting! Thank you (and your wife) for buying the camera! Awesome! Awesome! Awesome!
Wow! Wow! Wow!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
942 “It is somewhat ironic that James Kim might have been rescued by the old technology that he worked so hard to eliminate.” This seems to be a completely unsupported statement, so please reference. I am certainly unaware of any old technology that James tried to eliminate.
935 John Rachor. I’m so glad you got to meet Kati and Sabine. Kati told Sandy today when she called that she enjoyed meeting you and she knew just who you were. Now I just wish you had had the pleasure of Penelope’s company for few minutes and vice versa.
Brenda seriously, please just stop, nobody here wants to discuss any of Charles ideas. We don’t need to go down this path anymore.
Kati’s Dad as they say…it is just par for the course, Brenda is ill-informed with her points. She was wrong about the cell towers as well.
I have a feeling someone really hasn’t stopped posting here like Joe has requested.
937.. leland stamper re: that 916 article, I found the remark by Sergey Brin’s mother, Genia, impacting…. she hoped Sergey would find “somebody exciting who could be really interesting to him….[who] had a sense of humor that could match his.”
Isn’t that what many of us enjoy in other people? I don’t think I’ve ever consciously looked for those qualities in people I know but I realize [now] I do value them highly.
James (I never knew him personally) had it: he was interesting, he was funny, and I’m sure he was exciting to be around.
I suspect John Rachor has it. JoeDuck too. JoCoSar, definitely!
And as everybody knows unless you are close to a major highway you will not have very much CB traffic anymore. Channel 9 isn’t even monitored like it used to be.
Also for those of you that think CB’s are gone…the CB was the inspiration and design behind instant messaging, texting and chat rooms. So CB’s are still very much alive.
In fact one of the very first online chatting platforms was on CompuServe and it happened to be called CB.
Brenda, I think you’ll find that no one will be into any kind of negative spin.
This isn’t about arguments, and making things worse. It’s about making things better.
Well said Lisa…thanks.
James was indeed a very fun fellow and he thought Kati was one of the funniest people he had ever met. James loved many of the simple things in life. He actually was hard to buy gifts for because he didn’t really want much.
One Christmas about 4 years ago Sandy gave me a very basic portable GPS, James had fun crawling around the floor in the house checking the coordinates. I ended up going out and buying him one soon thereafter. I gave him a satellite radio one year and he was thrilled to have it for his trip back to SF from LA.
He loved the sausage places in San Francisco. Sandy and I just this morning were saying how we need to go back with Penelope to sample with her the sausage her Daddy loved so much. Sabine has teeth and a big appetite now, so I guess we better include her too.
James treated Sandy and me like VIP every time we saw him. We worried about him working too hard all the time. He just never stopped.
I don’t know if Kati will ever write the book, but I do hope so. He deserves to be remembered and theirs is a love story that should be told.
950 – Glenn, 😀
933- I am so excited about Randy Jones buying that camera and saving that man’s life!!!!!
I was actually jumping up and down and clapping when I read about it!
Literally jumping for joy!
That is just so awesome!
He deserves an official honor for that kind of financial sacrifice on top of all his other heroic volunteer efforts!
Whoo – Hooo!
Kip-947 That’s cool. I had thought you were pointing out Googles moral code. My mistake, I see now why you posted the article. I just thought the stock price comparison in the article was interesting.
951-
Kati’s Dad –
It is wonderful to celebrate and hear about James, he deserves such honor! I think people could tell what a great guy and good soul he was – and that was partly why so many strangers cared so much.
952 “He deserves an official honor for that kind of financial sacrifice on top of all his other heroic volunteer efforts!”
Indeed, he does! I love folks who contribute in positive ways. It sure makes for a better world. My hat is off to Randy, but I’m not up to doing a jig tonight.
You know Randy they call it instinct and you sure got it!
Ahh, sigh of relief. It is so nice to see this blog going back to the positive, forward thinking place that it was!
Phil sent this link to a great picture of Kati at the Memorial:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/02/17/PH2007021701320.html
955-
Yes, well it is late in N.M.!
I think I am even more appreciative of Randy’s and the camera’s abilities to save that life, because that was so
much the outcome I was hoping for, for James.
I was so much invested in hoping James would be found in time, as were so many people.
I thought the memorial service looked so beautiful, especially the graceful precious colorful cascade of cranes, and the sacred large white ones… And it was a gorgeous and giving day. It sounds like it was very healing for all those there…
I have to go, but I will check in tomorrow! 😀
Joe Duck, is there some way maybe an address could be posted here to help pay for that thing Randy Jones bought. If you get an address posted I’ll pledge a hundred bucks to send.
All those origami cranes were handmade on fairly short notice just for the occasion by family and friends. Kati is a very good organizer and this memorial was obviously very important to her. I also heard she had 7 tents ready to break out in the event of rain. She asked the press not to photograph the children.
I’m glad it is all over.
Oregonlive reports that another group needed rescue on Mt Hood. 3 of a group of 8 slide over a ledge. The remaining 5 called for help on a cell phone and dug a snow cave to await help.
“The climbers vastly simplified the search and rescue effort by carrying cell phones, global positioning system devices and mountain locator units, said Detective Jim Strovink of the Clackamas County Sheriff’s Office, which coordinated the search effort.”
paulj
960 Good, idea. I’d like to send also.
The memorial looked very touching. I was glad to see that Katie choose to have such an ‘upbeat’ mood to it. The cranes were totally awesome, it was breath takingly beautiful. To me, it gave am impression of light, happiness, and peace and hope. I can’t even begin to imagine how hard it was for Katie to get up and speak.
Am glad also that John R. got to meet Katie again.
Also, yes, I would like to be able to contribute something as well to the purchase of the camera by Randy Jones. I can not give much, but I would like to help. Could something be set up through Pay-Pal or something like that? If Randy Jones doesn’t want this, too bad!!! 🙂 People want to help and some of us like myself have no other way and to help him would help us, ok, Randy?
Glen, I’m so pleased you banned Charles, but other factions of him appear to be cropping up and I know it’s your site and I haven’t been here much lately, but please, can this blog not be taken down that lane again? Nothing constructive is or will be offered by these factions.
Katie’s dad, again, I think you did a very excellent job of raising your daughter. I wished I could’ve taken lessons from you!
Peace to Katie.
960, 963 Joe count me in. Great idea.
964, Frances I think you mean Joe in regard to Charles. I merely placed the suggestion into Joe’s head (several times) 😛 Joe wields the real axe around here.
Joe D’s bar and grill is getting that amiable feel back to it.
Of course there is no panacea for all the issues regarding SAR but hopefully we can bring some good things to light and help get them implemented.
It feels good to be in the light again!
964 Frances, contribution amounts do not matter; it’s the thought. I was sitting at the table with Kati when she was opening her mail a day or so after we returned from Oregon. Someone had anonymously sent her $5 cash, no message, no return address. We saw that five dollar bill was an phenomenal expression of love & support, and I’ll never forget it.
story behind the cranes:
http://www.sadako.org/sadakostory.htm
light shining in darkness makes dark light ….dark can never make light dark
969 Kip except at the center of a black hole where it is the darkest and light cannot escape thus becoming dark. 🙂 However, I do like the saying.
glenn…- grin – ,,just ’cause it can’t escape does that mean it, the light, becomes dark?
That seems to be our collective challenge, eh?
imo…. Lisa Novak, astronaut, got lost [in a manner of speaking] and is deserving of as much help as anybody else lost in any wilderness…
and NASA seems to concur:
“…NASA spokesman Steve Lindsey commented that “this is a private personal matter that she and her family have to deal with.” He emphasized that NASA considers itself a family and added: “Our primary concern is her health and well being…”
968 – The cranes were beautiful, and thank you for that link, Kati’s Dad. In college we used to set up a table in the student center to have passers by help us fold 1000 cranes to send to Hiroshima every year – it was no small task! To this day, my own 1000 cranes folded for my by my students before I left Japan is still my most cherished “souvenir” of my time there and my favorite thing in my living room. I was especially moved to see such a powerful symbol included for James’ memorial because there’s something really special about knowing that it was real people using their own hands and giving their time, all the while thinking about why they were doing it with every fold. It’s like it’s own tangible show of support. Didn’t mean to go off on a crane tangent, but it really struck me.
968, You beat me to it Dr. I got up this AM and am reading the overnight posts. Was going to post Sadakos Story.
973 – Maggie, I remember my students making those cranes for hours on end. They would make thousands for sending to Hiroshima, giving to ill classmates, and so on. Now you have me homesick (in a sense) for Japan. 🙂
People, Brenda wrote: “It is somewhat ironic that James Kim might have been rescued by the old technology that he worked so hard to eliminate.”
For what it’s worth, I think that could be read as: “It is somewhat ironic that James Kim might have been rescued by the old technology, while his job was to review new technology.”
Maybe I’m giving her too much credit, but I think her point was just ill-worded, and possibly from a slightly negative point of view. But I really don’t see it as that bad.
Brenda wrote: “no reasonable person would have continued to drive that far down BLM 34-8-36 without realizing that something was seriously wrong.”.
Brenda, I think most Reasonable People, including the vast majority of posters here(!), understand it was ultimately the Kim’s “fault” that they ended up where they did. Labeling their actions as reasonable or unreasonable doesn’t much matter. It is what it is.
Yesterday my son asked me if we could have another memorial soon – one with belly dancers and fire performers. There were about 10-15 small kids learning how to hula hoop for a couple of hours, and enjoying themselves immensely. All of the children there has a wonderful time, James was smiling about there for certain.
Thanks again for all of the support from here. My wife, Elena and I worked hard to make sure Kati’s vision for the memorial came to fruition and it was beautiful. We were able to have someone from a local station record the ceremony for us. If we can get it digitized soon I’ll try to put it up our site if folks want to watch it.
It was an honor to meet you John, and I hope I’ll get to meet Randy someday. Please Randy let us know where we can help you with that FLIR – and if you are too humble to take donations – let us buy another one for John or someone else in the area?
Correction, my wife is Sarah. Elena is a neighbor who helped. Both of them were working daily and late into the night to put this together. A lot of neighbors and friends still showing their wonderful support. Make sure you reconnect with your family and friends this holiday weekend! They are important!
I just want to say, if there were wifi in the forest, the kim’s could have used one of their laptops to send e mail to friends or family, or probably even state police about their situation. I do think wifi in the woods could have saved them. No, I think it certainly would have, so long as it was known to them that wifi was available. and I am sure I am not the only one who whips out my laptop to check for the signal in the most unlikely of places. I wouldn’t doubt if they tried it…even knowing it was totally unlikely…as there are even places in wyoming in the middle of nowhere where wifi is available….ranchers use it.
The online ODOT TripCheck map no longer shows the Bear Camp route. I think a couple of months ago it was an unlabeled black or gray line. Now there are only a few non-state roads on the map, marked in gray (over by Crater Lake).
paulj
😀 Attention 😀
Donations to Randy’s SAR team (Jackson County SAR)
can be sent to address below. If you want it to go for a handheld FLIR I would say to note that on the check. However I think it’s better to let them prioritize the funds. If you have questions about Jackson County SAR the phone is listed as: 541-826-6670.
Lt. Pat Rowland
SAR Program Manager
620 Antelope Road
White City, Oregon 97503
Leland I think this FLIR fund is a great idea and nice of you to chip in generously to get the ball rolling. Looks like the *cheapest* of these are about $8900 so it’s no wonder SAR groups don’t have them:
http://www.imaging1.com/thermal/ir225.html
http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/02/hood_river_man_missing_since_j.html
“A Hood River man missing since Jan. 25 was found dead Friday afternoon in his vehicle, which was submerged in water next to Interstate 84.”
This is an example of why much of the Kim search focused on gullies and rivers along major highways.
paulj
I just put in for a bank check to go out on Friday. I have it made out to the Jackson County SAR Team and earmarked as a “Randy FLIR Donation.”
They can prioritize as they desire, but either way Randy and his wife should feel good about inspirating donations.
And Joe, you should feel happy about the positive influence of this forum.
981 That was my nightmare fear until the girls were discovered.
I posted earlier a story about a missing Beaverton woman. Now I find that she has been found, dead, on a logging road in the Olympic peninsula.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1171686335192210.xml&coll=7&thispage=2
An off duty policeman reported her car driving erratically, but it appears that the 911 report got lost in a flurry of other police activity.
paulj
Randy and his wife should feel good about inspirating donations
Absolutely! Kati’s Dad you are quite a good dad and guy as well.
911 report got lost in a flurry of other police activity.
This, in theory, is the kind of info that could go online and allow people outside of LE or SAR or the case to say “hey, did you notice this connection?!”
Whoops – it is not a failure to notice the connection, rather a priority issue where there were not enough deputies to follow up when the call came in since they were dispatched to a “shots fired” and truck accident.
KGW has several articles on Johnson.
This article appears to be the most informative on where she was found (down Donkey Creek Rd south of Lake Quinault)
http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2007/02/15/local_news/02news.txt
Given the distance that she had driven after the sighting near Elma, it is hard to say whether she would have been found an earlier. If only she had been stopped right after the sighting.
paulj
Ah, I only wish I had found this sooner!
Perhaps the history of the errors of mankind, all things considered, is more valuable and interesting than that of their discoveries. Truth is uniform and narrow; it constantly exists, and does not seem to require so much an active energy, as a passive aptitude of the soul in order to encounter it. But error is endlessly diversified; it has no reality, but is the pure and simple creation of the mind that invents it. In this field the soul has room enough to expand herself, to display all her boundless faculties, and all her beautiful and interesting extravagancies and absurdities.
– Ben Franklin, otherwise known as Honest Ben
And this is for Randy Jones, an example of the highest honor:
All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality.
– MLK
[989] And to all those who support him!
981/983.
It is always a possibility that a car can go off even a well-trafficked road into dense foliage or down a ravine and not be seen by passersby, but with two adults in the car it was unlikely that each would be incapacitated and there would be no debris or skid marks that were noticeable. I always felt a stranded vehicle on a lesser road was more likely.
991 Fools Gold you should check out the accident in North Carolina with the couple that literally drove right off I95 into a creek right around Thanksgiving. Both died.
They even had an eye witness that called it in…but EMS for whatever reason didn’t put it together until many days later.
I came home a bit early today from work to find several very much appreciated comments on this site…….you folks are amazing, thank you so much for the donation commitments to SAR, they are all so needed, in any amount of donation, because the thought and follow through on charity is far more important than the amount. The donations are always talked about at each of our monthly volunteer general meetings. The notes or letters attached are charished by those involved in SAR and read aloud to all. It is hard to keep it together(emotionally) when I read that Kati’s Dad is also sending a donation……….I am so glad the memorial for James went so well and was attending by many. I am also sure that James would be proud of the reverence for him and his family. As a man of faith I have prayed on several ocassions for positive outcomes to honor James and the immediate family he left behind, Kati and the girls. The memorial Saturday accomplished part of that prayer and the find of Chris alive on Sunday in a similar and nearby ravine with a handheld FLIR inspired by James passing accomplished a lot more to answering my prayers. The rapid deployment of the California Oregon Regional Search and Rescue which performed magnificantly this weekend also helps in the answer to my prayers…..
To Kati’s Dad and Scott, please share the above as you see fit……..to the rest of you posting here lately, thank you and God bless you!!!
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Randy how did Chris get lost in the first place? Is there any information available about that?
How critical was your new equipment in the actual spotting of him? Do you think you would have found him without it?
Thanks for the info – I am trying to research as many angles and cases as I can as we work on some new databases to help.
Chris intentionally walked into the canyon thinking he could get through it in one day and have his wife pick him up at the Chetco River and drive him back up and around to his pickup truck several miles away…….this was not a canyon to walk through, for any reasonable reason. I doubt we would have spotted him without the FLIR camera, his body heat signature showed on screen for the spotter Randy Pace, as I turned to circle the location spot we saw a reflection off his machete, Chris was laying down, could not even get up to try to signal us. He said he had given up hope of living another day and could not proceed any further…..
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
995 Wow, dramatic story.
Randy,
Thanks for the information…just amazing.
What do you think drove Chris to want to try to traverse the canyon? Do you think he just didn’t realize what he was getting into?
So glad to hear the FLIR did the job for you – that really is awesome and should be standard equipment for all of you.
That Randy found Chris The Hiker (in a canyon!) on the very day of James Kim’s Memorial is pure synchronicity. Especially given that the purchase of the equipment used was inspired by the attempts to save James. Not to mention that the camera was a fine, high-tech instrument, something James would have definitely appreciated.
I’m so glad that the two Randys (Randii?) had a John Rachor Moment on Saturday. I think the rescue made the whole day, but the memorial event, the cranes as a backdrop and seeing Kati doing so well made it perfect.
Madeleine, I agree. So well put. Simply amazing.
980- JoeDuck Thanks for the address. Just dropped the check at the post office so it is on its way.
I didn’t think we’d ever get to 1000 on this page, all things considered, but we made it, and balance has been restored. What a great group of people have visited on these pages!
998 – Madeleine, wow! you are right on, and you expressed it so well. Perfect!
I would be interested in hearing a bit more about the hiker who set out to traverse a canyon that was well beyond his capabilities.
Was he inexperienced in rural areas?
Was he a poor judge of terrain or vegetation? It seems he had a machete with him and so he must have been rather well equipped despite being dressed in green? Was it an area frequented by hunters?
How many people would have rejected his planned course of action? From what you’ve said it doesn’t seem particularly outrageous to me. What factors would be the most obvious in making it a foolish course of action to take? Total distance? Density of vegetation? Lack of a known trail?
Madeleine – nice job!
(998) Randy Jones, AIR ONE. Did you and Randy Pace find Chris on Saturday or Sunday? Also, where did Chris start from and how far did he probably travel to the spot where you located him?
1003 – FG – Or hypothermia or a panic attack ??
1001/Madeleine: What a difference a day makes, so many fine posting, such great work by John R and Randy Jones. Much good will come out of this tragedy, directly and indirectly.
This should probably go under the Mt Hood post, but it is germane to the Kim discussion too. Much debate today about MLUs and climbing, which speaks to the issue of the government intervention some abhor in regards to perils in the wilderness. Personally, I think the rule is reasonable as it would only require them on Mt Hood in winter (Nov-Mar), but I know many in the climbing community feel strongly this is not legislation they want.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1171945528322580.xml&coll=7&thispage=2
More about the Curry Rescue effort:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0220/local/stories/currycosearch.htm
Paul – I’m not clear why many climbers object to a locator law. Cost seems trivial compared to the cost of a climb and the benefits if they get lost.
1008 Locator Laws:
I would expect that a Locator Program would have fewer objectors than a Locator Law. I would also think that a high risk area such as Mt. Hood would be different than a low risk area such as that hiker who was just rescued from a situation he never considered to be dangerous or unreasonable.
Ofcourse the easiest way to get ‘locators’ for atleast a general area is to have some sort of wifi/cellular presence since most people carry cell phones no matter where they are or what they are doing. Such cell phones would be useless in certain situations, such as when SAR already knows they are on the peak of Mt. Hood but otherwise it would certainly be a good start even if the probable error circle is rather large.
In listening to State Rep John Lim last night on the radio, his proposal sounds very reasonable – just for Mt Hood, only if climbing above 10000 feet, etc. He even discussed that at this point the law would have no “teeth” for enforcement but that it is more to “encourage” folks to take this extra step to help save them if needed and also help prevent additional risk to rescuers as well. Sure, it’s not going to mean a saved life every single time, but it should help more times than without anything being “required.”
Confucius celebrates the good in words:
Forget injuries, never forget kindnesses.
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
Ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without moon and star.
Study the past if you would define the future.
To be able under all circumstances to practice five things constitutes perfect virtue; these five things are gravity, generosity of soul, sincerity, earnestness and kindness.
Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart.
What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others.
When you have faults, do not fear to abandon them.
They must often change who would be constant in happiness or wisdom.
Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous.
Hold faithfulness and sincerity as first principles.
Note that my comments regarding James’ Memorial and the lost hiker being located should have referred to the same “weekend”, rather than the specific day, since they were indeed a day apart.
The BLM review of the gate locking is on line. A link to this probably should be added to the front page
http://www.blm.gov/or/news/announcements.php
It is interesting to note on the BLM announcements page that they had ordered some folding signs in September, and installed them on Dec. 19. There are pictures of the before and after signs.
paulj
Thank you for the link, PaulJ.
Just saw this article, too, even though we’ve been lucky enough to have Randy Jones share first hand with us how so far the Kim’s ordeal has brought something positive to future efforts:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_022007_news_missing_hiker.1b45debf.html
These are some salient points in the BLM gate report:
The gate in question is #066, located at mile 12.3 on BLM 34-8-36
The section beyond the gate is supposed to be ‘administratively’ closed. I think that means that according to the engineering plan, the gate is supposed to be closed permanently, except official BLM use (and the Black Bar Lodge caretaker). The gate, though, is relatively new (2004), and maintenance crews were not aware of its formal status.
Several BLM crews were down the road during 2006, and noted that the gate was locked in the open position with a nonstandard lock. They did not make an effort to close the gate or report this to the engineering department.
[I wonder who put that nonstandard lock on the gate? The report does not speculate on this. In a sense, this lock could be the ‘ultimate’ culprit, since it kept BLM employees from clearing and locking the gate according to written procedures.]
The BLM office was in the process of implementing a more formal gate policy and practice. They also had a rare budget opportunity to upgrade the warning signs this fall.
paulj
It is interesting that, while we discussed (in great detail) the ODOT map and its small ‘winter closure’ warnings, the BLM report gives that map a backhanded complement. It was the only map, of the ones they reviewed, that even carried such a warning.
paulj
Paulj: RE: BLM report and related links – Thank you for the fascinating information. The new signage is certainly more robust. The Grants Pass field office alone is responsible for 169 gates, of which 60 were vandalized or had locks broken last year. That’s a lot to stay on top of. The appendix which lists the statewide number of BLM roads is also quite interesting, a vast number, of which many are gated. Also interesting is that, technically, these are not public roads.
1015 and 1008
Wow. It is so good to see some good changes come from the Kim tragedy.
1019 – Kati’s Dad, I do hope that at least Kati may find some comfort in the positive changes, even if there is no way it could ever be worth what it cost her personally. At least her very huge loss isn’t completely in vain if others make it because her own dear James did not, if that makes sense. In any case, my thoughts continue to be with all of you and especially Kati and the girls.
http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6160800-1.html?part=rss&tag=6160800&subj=news
Photo coverage of the memorial for James Kim last weekend.
1021 Glenn, thanks for the link. I had not seen this one. I was surprised that the press coverage was still so widespread. At least a few people were able to see Kati on the video clips.
If the lost hiker was in such bad shape. Why wasn’t the Coast Guard called for a real rescue helicopter. They have a station at North Bend. Could have been called, on-scene and to the hospital in about an hour.
were they even considered ? (kinda sounds like they were not maximazing resources).
Being on the coast, Curry Co Sheriff’s dept has cooperated with the Coast Guard in many SAR missions. You can see that by searching the archives of the Curry Pilot.
On rereading Randy’s account (926), I don’t see any indication as to whether calling the CG was considered or not. It is possible that a larger helicopter could not have landed on the small gravel bar where Randy landed. Lifting the victim out by line might not have been a good idea either, given the 200 ft trees.
The nearby state park is noted for the northern most grove of redwoods.
paulj
The Coast Guard helicopters could not have landed on the small gravel bar surrounded by tall trees, Chris was hypothermic and needed a slow warm up which Randy Pace performed while I was directing ground and swift water crews to him. I had considered calling in Carson Helicopters for the short haul lift, they as Brim Aviation are rated for such insertion and extraction operations, the Coast Guard can do the extraction, but not the insertion. Remember, the Coast Guard has divers that go overboard and then line up from an empty external load hook or basket, no way a diver was going to enter the creek from above, certain death. As I stated earlier in postings, the mission could not have worked out better, the resources were matched to the task, after the search location was identified the proper rescue techniques were applied. I did use the Coast Guard on the Kim search to medivac a swat deputy who was injured to the hospital. Very valuable resource, but we extracted him from the canyon and took him to a high, wide landing zone where the Coast Guard helicopter could land and load and fly out to the hospital.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Well, actually the USCG has rescue swimmers that are trained EMT-Bs. They are more than capable of a simple insertion/extraction (normally they dont like to do over 150′ but can do 250′).
Click to access emsscene7261.pdf
I’ve used the USCG (NatGuard and the old 304th too) many times for this type of rescue. I would much prefer a military rescue helicopter with a trained crew than a helicopter hauling the local sheriff and news crew (Stivers search).
Dont get me wrong, Randy did a good job searching and finding the hiker. Excellent idea to land and provide aid, but maybe a better choice would have been to call the USCG rather than the land party to move the victim.
See, even when searches go very well…some people are just never satisfied! What is the problem? A mans life was saved, the search was coordinated well, nobody was injured..what else could you possibly ask for?
Guess you are going to have to talk to the Curry County SAR folks as to why they didn’t call the Coast Guard, actually didn’t even cross my mind in this situation, would have taken 280 feet as in the Kim body recovery to do the insertion. By the way, you weren’t there, I was, would not have been a “simple” insertion. Proper procedures were followed, I would not have changed a thing, absolutely nothing against the very fine folks of the Coast Guard. Also, on the Stiver search I flew by myself into the foggy, misting, windy motorhome zone using my very comprehensive GPS system directing the Timberland Jetranger with the swat medical tech on board. Sheriff and undersheriff were left in a lower and safer LZ until the mission was accomplished. I did pick him up and take him to the media center in Glendale, did not fly any media to the zone, that was contracted to someone else by the media. So, Lazy Joe, I won’t get in a pissing contest with you, but seems like you have a jealousy problem when you should be glad that the SORSAR group is working. By the way, my helicopter and time come free of charge, I am a volunteer and will stay that way………….it is called charity.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
I suppose that’s why the Incident Command System is used, so good real-time decisions are made on the ground and in the air. But the 20/20 hindsight questions are still asked, and answered, to confirm that the best decisions were made at the time. When the correct decisions were made, then maybe use the successful procedure to establish protocol for the next time a similar situation presents itself.
“You can’t please everyone all the time.”
– One of those “laws”!
[1029]
True also!
lol. Geez, don’t get upset. I was just wondering if the USCG was considered…apparently, they were not.
thank you for your answer.
Rats, the pics and links for the BLM report aren’t working right now. Hope it’s a temporary problem.
Lazyjoe, I think you will find that posts posed in a positive way the ask guestions are well received. Posts that question things in a negative way are not nearly as helpful. We here always try and solve problems in a positive way. (AirOne, I see no problem with how the last rescue was handled, but things can always be improved, as I am sure your AAR told you.) To all, let us keep the fine tone of this blog going strong.
1033/dkf747: They must be having some kind of technical problem because the Rogue River permit site was messed up earlier tdy, though it seems to be working fine now.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/20/business/email.php
Interesting article regarding research on why people seem to lose their manners while online… 🙂
Some of you may be looking for answers and you mind a start to them with this article.
and now for something completely different!
Uh oh, Pacnwer is getting his identities mixed up and using the language from one identity while posing as another.
Yep, Joy, keeping those identities straight is a chore for him/her. Let’s see, how many days of civility and grownups on the blog did we end up with?
At least we know they are still coming here for the real authority on SAR, their great volunteers and the James Kim tragedy.
Folks, remember that PacNWer comments will be deleted as soon as they are detected by my auto detection unit = me.
Joe, thank you. Very much.
Randy-
Do you carry something like the emergency box mentioned in this story (to drop to a victim):
http://www.nwcn.com/sharedcontent/northwest/travel/stories/NW_120106WABguardianonerescueLJ.42a6c2e3.html
and what is “SORSAR” ?
I know Randy carries a bag of survival gear in his helicopter to drop to victims as he convinced me to carry one in my helicopter as well.
I carry two personal survival packs for myself…..those were used Sunday morning to warm up and redress Chris in the Emily Creek canyon. I also have a complete survival pack to air drop as in the story at nwcn.com. In that drop bag is a radio transceiver with two SAR channels and instructions, plus water, food, first aid supplies, insect repellant, shelter fabric, rope, flashlights, compass, multiple fire starting tools (which are taken out of the bag during summer searches), playing cards, etc., etc. as well as survival instruction. I considered using this bag for Chris but his location and the canopy above and his apparent condition meant that our chances of getting the bag drop to him was slim to none……..hence our other actions mentioned in previous postings. I too have actually dropped a SAR member off my skids to the ground (pinacle below) in a remote wilderness with no close LZ just before dark to lead a group of teen girls back to safety. My preferred spotters who have SARTEC TWO ratings for wilderness survival know to come to my helicopter with complete gear of their own with the understanding that just because we are able to insert them, there is no guarentee we can get them back out soon. With the addition of Brim Aviation and Carson Helicopters, along with the ocassional availability of the National Guard and Coast Guard we can give more assurance of helicopter extraction. CORSAR stands for California/Oregon Regional Search and Rescue and is a fast forming multi-agency new way to do SAR and other emergency coordination as the aftermath of the Kim Family search in the Big Windy Creek area in December. These resources will become available to the host county through their sheriff as requested. Much good has already come from the task force meetings and review with much more to come. The most important goals were to take down artificial boundaries, quickly assess and implement resources, improve communications, and put the proper management personell in place and update as needed. This is a tall order and major change in how we look at geographical as well a political boundaries. As a “guarded optimist” I can report that the initial steps have been huge and productive. The recent Curry County mission of last Sunday is a start. Of course continued review and training and updating will ultimately show our true progress……you can judge us by our future results.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
I recall rather vaguely an incident wherein two experienced outdoorsmen pulled into shore for lunch and each thought the other was securing their rented raft and all their supplies. After watching their food, sleeping bags, tents, etc. go rapidly downstream they simply stayed put. Downstream the inverted raft was found by the outfitting company and a full scale rescue effort was mounted rather than a mere helicopter drop of more modest equipment to let them go downriver. Sometimes the SAR response is more than is needed. Sometimes it may be less. I don’t know if removing the fire starter in summer is due to forest fire fears or a belief that it would be unnecessary. How cold would the river be in Summer if a fisherman fell in and got soaked? I don’t know. I would not remove the fire starting gear but perhaps it is a sensible thing to do.
Here’s an article on the risks and costs of SAR missions.
“Climbing Rescues in America: Reality Does Note Support ‘High-Risk, High-Cost’ Perception”
Click to access MRreal.pdf
It draws heavily on statistics from Yosemite N Park, and comprehensive SAR reports required in Oregon (Oregon Emergency Management). In both areas, lost person cases were most expensive.
It also looks at the contribution of the community to the volunteer effort. Climbers and Fixed-wind Aircraft communities contributed the most hours to missions.
paulj
I don’t have a therapist. I don’t know where you got the idea that I do. Not that I think having a therapist is a bad thing, we could probably all use one at some point or other.
What are you using for a portable radio (bendix)?? Are you using 805 and 160 as the freqs??
okay, I am aware of CORSAR (wonderful idea). Sound have a good long-term impact.
Oh no, they are tag-teaming us!
Don’t feed the trolls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1048 – PacNWer…you are not inferring that you are a lot lizard are you?
Nice and warm in the cab of a big ole’ KW! What do you have something against a Peterbilt or International?
LOL
Ol’ Pac is back
And he’s still quite cracked
Singing the same tired tune
He’s as crazy as a loon
Engage if you dare
(Better odds with a bear)
‘Tis better to abstain
Your energies he’ll drain.
Paul you are inspiring me to rewite ‘Oh the cat came back!’
lol
uummm. Is 1050 directed at me? I’m confused. I had a posting after-thought (don’t you hate that).
The SRT2. Are you referring to the NASAR standard? OSSA uses a kinda weak minimum quals (IMO). Did JackCo adopt NASAR as a standard? Other than MRA, I didn’t think any Oregon groups were really using NASAR.
PS Randy and Joe-If I’m being a pain, let me know and I won’t post anymore (I would prefer to read than upset others).
1054, No not you…. Sorry if you were worried!
Laurie
LazyJoe, you are not a pain, I just took some of your questioning inquiry as a mission review that I won’t do in a blogsite with people of unknown skill sets. Obviously you have worked in SAR and emergency services and I do look for any constructive suggestions for future improvement. Some of your comments and questions were posed in a way to suggest challenging a process of which you were not a part and appeared to minimize the efforts of many volunteers trying to help a person in need.
Chris Mankey (Curry County mission subject Sunday) just called me to figure a return on my emergency pack clothing and to thank us for our efforts in his rescue. He told me he had planned the hike through the rugged canyon for weeks, thought he might have to spend one night in the canyon, yet told his wife he could possibly be through it in one day. He packed light on purpose, was able to build a fire his first night, started getting cold on Saturday so tried to move higher along the east ridge so as to get some sun in the rare patches of open canopy. He said the sights were absolutely beautiful…..huge windfall redwood tree root wads bigger than a three bedroom house, tree trunks much larger than a semi-truck in diameter, etc., etc. As he found himself making slower progress on Saturday he spent that night without a fire and nothing to eat he keep getting colder and colder. On Sunday morning around 10am he first heard and then saw my helicopter moving down canyon over the top of him. He used all the strength he had to get down to the creek in hopes we could see him only to hear me fly on downstream towards the Chetco, he fell exhausted on the east side of the creek. Moments later he heard us coming back up the west side of the creek and looked up and could see that we had spotted him. The rest of the story is in earlier posts.
Chris will be joining the Curry County SAR team and take training from them starting next month. He also wants to learn to fly a helicopter and do for others what we did for him. He says he is committed to the cause and is glad we took the necessary steps to find him. He wishes that after changing his clothes and warming him up that we would have let him finish his trek, since he was only about three-quarters of a mile from the Chetco……I told him that possiblity was not his choice once he was under our charge. Besides he could barely stand, let alone hike.
Just thought those of you still checking in here should have an opportunity to hear things first…..
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Wow, Randy, thank you for sharing that. Very moving, very incredible and very much thank you for what you do.
1056 Randy great story. The noble work you guys do would make a good TV series.
Here is the Curry Pilot article on Chris’s rescue
http://www.currypilot.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=14544
I imagine with the south Oregon snow, now could be an even worse time to be stranded.
paulj
There are such wonderful folks here…I am so grateful that I chanced upon this blog last December.
Hope this isn’t too off-topic…including a URL for a story about the solar activity of last December. I’m trying
to not clutter the blog with observations that may seem irrelevant to most folks here…but this particular article
notes the strength of the solar blasts that occurred in December.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/22feb_nosafeplace.htm?list199474
My best thoughts to all,
Nancy
Gee, planned the hike but intentionally packed light.
Would he have been likely to pack a locator beacon if it had been available? How much more weight would a solar blanket have been or a pint of water or an orange reflective panel visible to a helicopter pilot?
Was his planning inadequate or his knowledge of the area insufficient.
I wonder what would have been the situation for someone who had not planned?
“He [Chris Mankey] said the sights were absolutely beautiful…..huge windfall redwood tree root wads bigger than a three bedroom house, tree trunks much larger than a semi-truck in diameter, etc., etc. As he found himself making slower progress on Saturday..” Randy Jones (1056)
Was his planning inadequate or his knowledge of the area insufficient.[?] (1061)FG
“Mankey [Curry County mission subject] was familiar with the area, she [his wife, Vicki] said, adding they had been to the area before for mushroom picking. She said her husband was never lost and that he had a map. He had only miscalculated how long he would be hiking. …
But he had not done a hike like the Emily Creek Drainage since his early 30s.” Tom Hubka, Curry Coastal Pilot, Feb. 21, 2007 link at (1059)
When the sightseers and mushroom pickers read these glowing accounts of the scenery, there will probably be an influx of the inept needing rescue in the subject drainage. Until a person has really experienced some serious bushwhacking, he/she has no idea of the energy demands, let alone the orienteering skills needed. What looks good on a map is only the average slope between contours. You might find a cliff on the ground between two contour map elevations, but on the map the contour lines will only be slightly closer. Please folks, don’t go solo and go prepared!! Go see large trees at Jedediah Smith Park and have a picnic. Pick mushrooms at the local grocery or have a liver transplant lined up.
1061/1062: Travel light or travel prepared? It’s an age old quandry. The 3 who perished on Hood were traveling light, which is not to say they did not have all the technical equipment they needed, they did. But they did not have sleeping bags (just bivy sacks), and were light on severe weather clothing. The only one recovered died of exposure and hypothermia even with the snow cave. Climbers argue if you pack too heavy you’ll never make it up and down fast, which could be fatal. I would argue you have to be prudent and be prepared for the worst, as that WILL be fatal.
Many times I have ventured out in Spring or Fall with clothes and gear that never came out of my pack. Every time you curse the weight and space it takes up. However, there have been a few times I have needed every last piece of it. Those times were a compelling reminder of why I bring it in the first place as I would have been in serious peril without it.
Traveling light is fine in summer, but this time of year the risks outweigh the benefits.
UPDATE – he has been found safe though kidnapper is still at large.
Hi Folks –
I’ve also posted this at DangerData.com but more people are reading here. A kid was abducted this morning in Parrish, Florida. Although it’s getting great air time on CNN, if enough people “DIGG” this CNN story it will place the news in front of a huge young audience that does not watch normal news. I’ve been looking for online ways to spread the word on missing persons and I think getting these cases into DIGG.com could be a very helpful thing. It generally requires 30-50 “Diggs” to make the home page.
I have been involved with a limited number of overdue-on-outings situations, both on the giving end (never lost, but overextended) and the receiving, waiting anxiously or searching, end. Don’t think the old adage holds, “It is better to give, than to receive.” Each are stressful. Go prepared, so you and interested second parties don’t have to suffer either stressing experience, or volunteer third parties expending donated time and money. Go prepared. Give yourself a break and everyone else ,too.
1064 – Thanks, Joe. Dugg.
Good Evening folks! Just dropped by to say Hi and see what the topic of converstaion was….Happy to see you all still chomping at the bit! Best wishes to all!
Hi RRR – I bet you didn’t think there’d be thousands more comments in this discussion!?
Hey R3…wazz up? We are all still chewing on many pieces. Just some of the conversation is more palatable now. 🙂 Hope you are well.
R3, good to hear from you! Yes, here we still are, no, we didn’t get a life…but it’s been such an interesting journey with JD & Gang.
Hope all is well with you, and please say Hi to JoCoSAR.
I wonder if in a Mt. Hood situation it might not be possible to take some emergency gear and then cache it. If able to travel at all, they could atleast make it to the stashed gear.
Mushroom harvesting is a rural occupation often engaged in by those with little knowledge of what it is they are picking. I understand that certain groups are routinely blamed for over-harvesting. Economics will force venturing into rugged areas and probably force the suspension of rescue attempts more quickly than otherwise would be desired.
Energy demands? Yes. One need only look at the diet of some explorers and the rigors they endured. Ofcourse one explorer in the USA almost died amidst plentiful game because he ran out of bullets. Lead was crucial at times. As you might recall from Seargeant York, the runner up in the shooting competition got to dig the lead out of the tree. Survial required a lot of items at times.
From what I’ve read of SAR missions on Mt Hood, I don’t think a cache (or few) would have helped. Problems have occurred at a variety of places, and for a variety of reasons.
In the latest case, the group of 3 who fell, actually walked down to the 7500′ level in the White River Canyon, while their companions where picked up via snow cat near the upper end of the ski lift (8500′).
I think the woman who was hit by a falling piece of ice was much higher on the mountain. The three men lost in December were on the north side of the mountain.
If the problems arise due to a fall, injury, or white out conditions, staying put is likely to be the best option, as opposed to trying to move to some unmanned cache.
Caches were essential for expeditions in Antarctica. I have also read of places with emergency shelters. But I don’t know how useful these have been.
paulj
Randy … I have a question. I recall you either here or in a news article I read saying you thought James was still alive on the Tuesday. That would mean he had survived 3 nights in the W.C. drainage without shelter or heat, and very likely soaking wet. Chris, the fellow you rescued in Emily Creek canyon, was outside 2 nights but the first night he was able to build a fire and his clothing was then still dry. The next night no fire and he was wet…. and later in the day he very nearly succumbed to hypothermia.
Assuming different temperature / wind chill conditions were not factors do you still think James, already in a weakened condition after being without adequate nourishment for a week, could have survived the 3 freezing cold soaking wet nights until Tuesday?
We don’t know for absolute certainty how long James survived, but the helicopter pilots and crews who collectively flew the Big Windy Creek drainage top to bottom over 200 times low and slow all believe he was still on the move Tuesday. My own spotter swears the items of clothing spotted Tuesday from the air were not there on Monday afternoon. Also, where James was found in the pool of water Wednesday was exactly where two Carson pilots saw two small flickers of light Tuesday night when leaving the canyon after dark. James had two lighters with him. That pool was visible to me Monday and Tuesday during the day and we did not see him and my helicopter flew at the lowest view point in the canyon each day. Remember, James was young and healthy, plus he had several layers of clothing with him during his trek and was found fully clothed. Several items of clothing were picked up by the swat deputy we inserted Tuesday afternoon. Being resourceful and motivated because of seeking help for his family it is possible he made it that long. The severity of his hypothermia had advanced to the most extreme level ever witnessed by the medical examiner, James survived much longer than most would have. The weather was cold but not rainy and depending on how often he shed wet clothing may have helped. The canyon he was in was extremely difficult terrain, but did not have giant redwood windfall trees to negotiate as in the Emily Creek drainage. Even though Chris had warmer temperatures (relative), he was in a very soggy wet coastal environment with no changes of clothing, he actually burned some of his clothing Friday night in order to start a fire and them had little dry fuel to maintain much of a fire with the cold humidity.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
A Seattle paper reports that car left a I90 freeway offramp Friday night, but wasn’t found until the next morning. Another driver saw lights of a skidding car disappear, and called 911. A state trooper was sent to the area and searched but did not find anything. The car was found upside down, in water and heavy brush, and apparently had floated some distance from where it first landed.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003588051_crash25m.html
paulj
Hi Randy –
I have a question for you also. I know you said that one of the SAR you helped insert to retrieve some of the items James left behind in the extra steep walled section of the canyon, was down there for about 10 minutes and said he couldn’t hear the helicopters. I was wondering if it might have been different for James though, as his hearing probably became very fine-tuned to the sounds down there,
especially the differences between night and daytime, and senses often become heightened along with adrenaline in survival situations. Plus listening closely was a primary part of James’ work. (Not to mention how loud helicopters can be.)
I wouldn’t be surprised if James was aware of the helicopters more often, due to these factors and the sound dynamics in different parts of the canyon. Was there any evidence that the trail of clothes was laid out in a way that would have indicated he thought people might be looking from the air? Like were they positioned to be seen
through the clearing of the trees above?
Thank You!
Another lengthy piece in tdys Boregonian on the merits of MLUs and PLUs and why some, esp in the climbing community, are against making them mandatory:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1172305571193630.xml&coll=7
Listening for helicopters is apparently not that easy in such a situation. Penelope was assigned the job of listening. She alerted her Mom to grab her umbrella when she first heard John Rachor’s chopper. It is so sweet to hear her tell her role in saving her Mom and sister.
Randy, hearing about the flickers of light really shifted my mood to optimistic the night before James was found. I think it made the tragic news of his death even more difficult. Nonetheless, I appreciate the way we were kept informed, and I’m eternally grateful for all the goodwill shown to us by the people of Oregon.
It seems the older technology is actually archaic and should be abandoned.
I wonder however if the comment about the visibility is important too. The 14 year old isn’t going to be carrying a beacon. The motorcycle rider or perhaps even the skateboarder might actually be imposing more costs on the taxpayers. A lot of this media distortion too.
My helicopter is quieter than the larger twin turbine Carson helicopters, my wife can usually her me from a distance coming home because she is aware of the sound, the larger helicopters can be heard for miles in normal situations. What Eric Johnson (swat deputy) said was that even with the Carson helicopter 280 feet above him that he couldn’t hear it through the heavy forest canopy and the rapids on Big Windy Creek at the insertion point for the clothing items. The only item we saw from the air was the blue dress of one of the girls, we thought it was a small backpack. It was approximately ten feet above the north shoreline in one of the few spots we had a visual to the ground. Most of our viewing was of water and brush/boulders/tall Douglas fir trees and assorted deciduous trees. James had to enter the creek and wade to a boulder midstream in order to have his flicker lights be seen, not a good position to be in, but there was no safe outlet out of the canyon where he wound up………I was emotionally wrung out Tuesday night after several intense days trying to locate and get James rescued. That is why I didn’t fly on Wednesday during the recovery operation.
I bought the FLIR camera a week later, begged forgivenes from my wife and will never fly a search mission without one again……..it saved Chris’s life one week ago today in an equally difficult wilderness canyon. James can take credit for that rescue……….
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Did anyone associated with the SAR have a FLIR camera?
I’m wondering if it was something discussed with James’s father, seeing as how money wasn’t much of an object.
The SAR units did not have a FLIR camera, I have borrowed from various fire districts at times in the past, not all units are very effective from the air. One Carson helicopter had a borrowed unit on board, don’t know what model. The National Guard had a mounted FLIR system on one of their helicopters. The FLIR system doesn’t guarentee discovery, but certainly makes it much more possible in heavy canopy. I prefer a generation 3 or 4 model with single eyepiece with the black hot or white hot option, makes a difference depending on time of day and temperatures in the environment.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
It is not simply a matter of availability of equipment but also a matter of being familiar with its operation and nuances of interpretation. A borrowed unit on board is certainly better than nothing but it takes some degree of familiarity with it for it to be effective.
Randy, thank you very much for your explanation of some of the details of James’ plight in the Windy Creek drainage. His fatal trek was truly incredible, as you implied. Those 2 faint flickering lights that the Carson pilots saw Tuesday dusk may have been James’ last hope of rescue. What a terribly sad and difficult ending for him.
Randy…. one final question: Do you think the Kim SAR outcome may have been different if you had had the use of a FLIR camera of your choice on the Monday and Tuesday? (from what you have shared with us thus far I would think that you’ll answer ‘probably yes’)
Having a FLIR onboard during the search for James could have helped, but no one can say for sure. As with Chris last Sunday, the flight down canyon we did not pick up a heat signature, fortunately coming back up canyon he was in a position we could get one. Had he been behind or under one of those big trees we would have picked up no signature……..of course we would have kept flying the canyon from all angles in hopes of picking up something. Probably a personal locator beacon (PLB) would be the surest way to find a lost person, but most folks won’t think that far ahead. I have an emergency locator transmitter onboard my helicopter that should go off in event of a crash landing or can be removed and packed out with me should I have an unscheduled landing. Even with that I am considering purchasing a PLB, just in case…..
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Randy thanks for the detailed information. Really paints a picture of the situation. Many of us speculated how long James survived. Just a tragic and amazing story from so many angles.
Nice to see you give James credit for the Chris search – another peg in his legacy for sure.
Kati’s Dad – How is everyone doing now that the memorial service has happened, etc.?
nice review of the new PLBs that are just becoming available for 2007.
http://www.equipped.com/shot_show_2007_gear.htm#microfix
1087 Glenn, Kati and the girls are generally doing okay. I am sure looking forward to flying in to San Francisco this weekend to see them.
As I recall, the hiker who was recently located via a FLIR camera was wearing green and therefore not visually located. The first pass failed to obtain a heat indication and this may have been due to lack of a stark contrast with the background. I wonder what other FLIR problems are encountered? False positives from hot rocks or something?
Oh the Pac came back, they thought he was a goner but the Pac came back, he just couldn’t stay away!
Infrared technology is quite different in the sense that color has no significance. The images viewed through the eyepiece or on the LCD screen are heat signatures given off by the different temperatures of the items in the “view”. The clarity of the items is usually quite good. We can recognize a human shape from say another animal up to a half-mile away. As the sun warms up the terrain we pick up more “hot spots” and then have more work in separating the shapes. When a deer is bedded down it at times looks like a human laying down, that has fooled us in the past. Bear, elk, coyotes, and birds usually appear quite different through the viewfinder. As I said earlier, color of clothing make no difference, except to the naked eye. A bit of trivia, when surveying and doing recon for the sheriff department locating transient camps in the brambles along the Bear Creek greenway, we are able to tell the deputies below how many, if any, transients are in each tent encampment by the heat signatures given off through the tent fabric.
Randy Jones
AIR ONE
Article in the Curry Pilot on a new aircraft (and organization) for the South Coast (Curry Co) CAP
http://www.currypilot.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=14571
paulj
Paulj, good article, and yet another positive action taken as a result of the tragic death of James Kim.
Thanks Randy! All of that is very interesting. Flir technology seems very promising, and you have already proved that it is!
Wok-net.
Upthread there were several comments on rural access to cell phone towers or broadband signals.
A New Zealand TV station seems to have used a ten dollar wok as an effective broadbank link and gained quite a bit of internet ‘buzz’ but it seems the commercial wok-sized satellite dishes would only have been eighty dollars anyway, so a ten dollar wok was not all that much of a saving.
Pringles cans and woks. Strange.
Ofcourse in an emergency, I don’t think anyone would object to how their distress signal got out.
1096 – Fools Gold yes a couple hundred dollars spent on a wok solution as compared to $20k for the standard dish and it works just as well!
Wok-net.
I don’t know if any resorts or rustic lodges or hunting camps would be willing to spring for twenty grand for a satelite dish, but I dare day they all might be willing to donate a few of those ten dollar woks. Some of the SAR searchers might even consider a wok being out in the hot sun or pouring rain as more pleasant than their having to go tromping around deep gullies.
Oregonlive has continuing reports on the search for a missing 80 yr old Wilsonville woman (one week ago). There are a couple of reports of her stopping to ask directions, and that’s about it. There hasn’t been any credit card activity. In the latest volunteers flew over the Willamette River.
paulj
Hello everyone,new to your forum,just finished reading the last 10 pages.Interesting!Please remember that sara is a human being like the the rest of us(Ihope?)We all have to make hard decisions in our personal lives and at work.Some are right,some wrong others in the gray.Having known this individual personnally,my gut feeling is is that she takes her job and performance,as most of us do,very personal.It’s has been awhile since we have heard from sara r.,so lets please put or best foot forward,in words and actions,and invite her back to joe,s forum.Thanks Sara for your service. Joey
Details are a bit sketchy in the AP release but I thought some here might enjoy hearing of the fluke discovery of an avalanche victim by a newly arrived searcher making his very first probe.
Ofcourse such recreational snowmobileers do degrade the pristine wilderness and often seek to challenge hills in avalance prone areas.
And this guy too in seeking to escape the avalanche seems to have made a mistake or two.
Sort of a routine SAR event telescoped into eight hours.
Joey, welcome. I believe Sara and a few other SAR folks were pretty much wrung out by the events and aftermath of the Kim tragedy, and returned to concentrating on their jobs and ongoing rescues after many late nights and shared thoughts and feelings here. And there were things they couldn’t share, I’m sure, due to the pending investigations. How frustrating the whole ordeal was for all of the SAR participants!
Sara participated for a long time, and I hope she knows she is among friends here and is always welcome (I am confident I speak for the others who have been hanging in here). I sincerely hope all is well with her.
Was wondering about the future, maybe some day we may wish to make contact, some with others who have participated here. Perhaps we could authorize Joe to release our email address to anybody here who requests it. If that’d be OK with Joe!
Madeleine, I admire your way with words. 1102 – perfect.
1102 – You are 100% correct! I have never left, I just did not have the desire to subject myself to CW. My personal email address is ibesara1@charter.net if anyone would like to contact me directly, otherwise I just check back occasionally now that the traffic has died way down.
I continue to work diligently on making SAR better here. I am going to Managing Search Operations training all this week (for the fourth time) with four other SAR members from Josephine County (including the new Sheriff). Looking forward to sharing new ideas since Kim case.
March 13th is our 2nd CORSAR meeting, and March 22nd is the state OSSA conference, where Kim case will be discussed with all State Sheriff’s. That meeting will be followed by State SAR Advisory Council meeting, just FYI.
Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any other questions that I may be able to answer.
Thank you to Joeh and Madeleine, along with all of the other “regulars” here…I do really appreciate all of you!
And to JoeD, you would be so amazed at how “Joe Duck” has become a common term around here. Everyone knows. Thank you!
hi you guys. long time…. good to see you all still checking in.
Ive missed the conversations lately and I continue to check in. so it is GOOD to see you all!
I know this isnt the forum (forgive me joe….) but Im visiting the Grants pass area with a large group soon and we need a grood place to stay for the night. please let me know if you know of a good lodge, hotel, inn, etc…in grants pass or close by. thanks my email is harley168 at hotmail dot com
again, sorry joe and thanks.
Good to see some of the old regulars popping back in! I check in occasionally but haven’t had much to say.
Sara, you remain in my thoughts, and I do hope things are settling back to more like normal in your world.
1105/ I know RRR would suggest you check out the Galice Resort on the banks of the Rogue River in Galice, not very far from Grants Pass at all. 😛
Good to see/hear from everyone, esp Sara. I think the posts from Randy J demonstrate just how many productive changes have come about as the result of the Kim tragedy and that the process just keeps getting better.
Kip, thanks for the kind words.
Sara, I understand completely re: CW’s posts. You were strong not to be suckered into responding (as many of us continued to do…)
I was laughing when you mentioned how well known “Joe Duck” is. Perhaps the words are evolving into a verb, i.e. “the incident was later Joe Ducked (analyzed)…” How interesting it is that so many people came together to talk about this, including many of the principals and persons with collateral relationships with the case.
Even now, when I’ve mentioned the ongoing discussion to colleagues, they ask “how in the world did you get involved in a case like that in another state?” It’s not like we don’t have enough crime and other activities on our plates around here to keep us all busy for years, and while I might follow criminal cases from other areas, this type of case is a first, for me. As we all know, this incident just pulled us in and wouldn’t let go, and it spoke to us on so many levels.
Sara, Tara and Maggie, so good to see you again!!
Joe, you have permission to release my e-mail address, except to the few who have disrupted in the past, and you know who they are better than anyone.
From what I understand, the FLIR technology is on a Moore’s Law type trajectory, not to mention all the other technologies that come to bear. SAR should look quite different in a few years.
I’m sure that between FLIR advances and beat up old woks, there will be changes. The problem is knowing what resources are available, being logistically able to employ whatever is felt to be appropriate and having some familiarity and proficiency with the equipment and the information reporting procedures.
I’ve often wondered how mosquitoes and flies can find someone in the woods, but we can’t. Heat signatures may vary, there can be some background clutter or some spurious signals from rocks previously heated by the sun but in general infrared should be a great tool to use. Unfortunately that phrase ‘low end’ seems to mean different things to the vendors than to the vendees.
Fools Gold there are a lot more flies and mosquitoes and we are in their neighborhood.
Glenn, speaking of mosquitos and flies and other pests…they do keep finding us, don’t they?
LOL, Joe’s Pest Control…
Mosquitoes track by heat, carbon dioxide and other factors including visual and ultra violet and behavior modification by mosquito borne parasites.
And if something as tiny as a mosquito brain can process all these sensory inputs to find someone you would think we could do it with our ‘advanced’ technology.
Hey, nice to see some of you old “regulars” coming back. I miss all the talk during December and January but I’m also getting more work done! Happy to facilitate any email exchanges but I’ll only release people’s mail if they specifically ask to do it.
Tara how big is the party? Galice Resort is a nice place as Paul noted above. http://galiceresort.com The Weasku Inn may not be large enough but it’s kind of a luxury lodge on the Rogue River and has won some awards. Very near Grants Pass. http://www.weasku.com
I don’t think Black Bar or any of the Wild River Lodges will be open until late spring, but the River lodges are great along the Rogue though you generally have to raft or boat to them.
Here’s are two good sites for the area:
http://www.grantspassoregon.gov/Index.aspx?page=8
http://sova.org (order the free printed guide)
1114/Fool’s Gold: I would humbly submit that if there is one thing Mother Nature’s teaches mankind at every turn in the road it is this: that for all our advanced technology, nature routinely reminds us of how much we don’t know and how much we cannot control. Katrina, hurricanes, tornadoes, Mt. Saint Helens, AIDS, the Eubola virus, cancers of all types…the list is endless.
Whenever man displays hubris regarding this planet nature has a way of teaching us humility and respect. It will be a long time before we get as good as mosquitoes at finding people. Their system is born of millions of years of evolution, ours is mere decades in the making.
Tara, another wonderful place to stay on the Rogue is Morrisons Lodge between Merlin and Galice. Check them out at http://www.morrisonslodge.com. If you talk to Galice resort say hi to Debbie for me.
Given the robust discussion on this board of the reliability of The Oregonian’s reporting, I thought people might be interested to learn that the Oregonian has reportedly been nominated for a Pulitzer for its “Lost Family” coverage.
Here is a link to another lost couple, found safe…
http://www.times-standard.com/local/ci_5395021
I think it just goes to show that as long as we are human, mistakes will be made, and people will work hard to rescue those who make the mistakes.
Again Joe, thanks for this board
(waiting eagerly for spring. got to get my garden growing)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070309/ap_on_re_us/timber_counties;_ylt=AvQKUesMkLSlcI8WHTqY8OdG2ocA
This one is kind of a bummer. Less money for the small towns. More hassle for the people who work in the LE field I fear.
Thx for the interesting links Media Watcher and brewdude – I hadn’t even heard about either of those stories.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/3902
There is no reason any town in any country can’t apply these same techniques to solve the communication issues!
Im with JOCO SAR and have been a lurker here from way back. I have been busting by brains trying to find a good pack for SAR. The backpack need to be at least 2400, internel frame but most important is the outside pockets. They need to have many outside compartment/pockets. Then I had a Dutch Bro brain freeze and it came to me. JOE DUCKS family. You guys have been so helpful with the search and new ideas, who would be better? I have looked for a couple of months and I have nothing. If anyone has seen one or knows where I can look that would be great. It is hard out on a search and have to stop the team so you can dig in your pack, with outside pockets you can keep moving. It may seem like a small thing, but its important when your on a search…………Thank You ~FJ~
re 1123 – http://www.toughtraveler.com/lug/bigback.asp
Scroll down to the Rescue Carrier. Is this anything like you need, FJ? I’ll keep looking. Wouldn’t it be great if someone could design and produce one specific to your needs?
re 1124
Thanks Gayle. That is a nice pack. That is very close to what I would like but not the cost. I was trying to get pockets off old packs I can get at Good-will and taking them to get some heavy duty stiching but that wasnt working too well. It would be great to have one designed for SAR at a price that was affordable. But wish in one hand…Thanks so much
FJ – If you are a member of Jo Co SAR, have you asked Ruth? I know that she makes custom chest packs. Perhaps she could make you a backpack also?? Just a thought….
JOCOSAR
I didnt ask Ruth, even though I do have one of her chest packs. Jim was talking about packs with outside pockets and not finding them anymore, at least affordable ones. He was right, of course. I figured he would have one by Ruth if that was an option. And being that the people here are so resourcful, thought I’d give this a shot. Unless you want to spring for the one Gayle found? Pleeeeeease…….
Kelty used to have pockets you could order to sew on yourself. I think they were for replacement, but if they still exist they could be sewed on for auxiliary. They were to be sewed onto the pack around the sides and bottom, so there was also an unsecured, no zipper, pocket behind the zippered pocket for thin stuff mostly. Sierra catalog or Kelty Internet, I’ll go check. Thanks. (Just thought, maybe sew a cheap appropriately sized stuff sack around three sides and achieve the same effect more frugally.)
Rodney King
I tried both places, they must not have those anymore. That would have worked. That was my idea with buying old packs and removing the pockets to sew on my pack. It just was going to look too trashy with so many colors and materials. THANKS!
http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?departmentID=84&productID=31179
Sorry I didn’t see this one first…
http://www.armysurplusworld.com/display.asp?subDepartmentID=157
Nancy-1131
Those are good. Nice big outside pockets.I think that will work. We have a surplus store here and hopefully I can get one of those. If nothing else I could use the pockets and they would all match. Many Thanks!
My computer was having major problems and I couldn’t access anything for awhile, but miraculously it became fully operational again!
I missed checking in here! Good to see good things going on!
Best wishes to everyone too!
😀
(1129) With all those colours, you would look like a Christmas tree from the air, not just a tree. Apparently to your advantage according to the pilots, you should be visible from the air and not look like the object of the search. I guess it would be a disadvantage to look like trash in the bear infested southern Oregon woods.
(1129) FJ you might also have a problem with the victim(s) they make think you are worse off and they might offer you some of their stuff – LOL. 🙂
1134
Thats exactly what the pack would look like- a pack of many colors! And I would rather wear a bright colored vest so I would be seen from the air. Im not too worried about bears, there are worse things out there than that
1135
Ya never know, they might have the good stuff……….lol
BTT
and yet more rescued hikers.
http://www.californianonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070315/NEWS01/70315008
I think it goes to show that working on making the SAR job easier and well funded is a better bet than trying to “educate” the masses. The “Masses” will resisit edumakation with all their heart so we need to have good SAR. All you SAR people who read here, thanks, and keep working hard.
(in other news, the forum on that “other” site has been removed….no posts at all in almost a month. There is some good left in the world 🙂
Big Sur ‘rescue’.
Sounds like lack of maps or something. Someone heard calls for help so their location was known to a local. Terrain may have been difficult but seven young college students were probably uncertain of how to extricate themselves or lacked ropes and sufficient skills.
I agree though that no posters about maps or ropes or anything is ever going to be sufficient. Daylight fades, water is depleted, equipment proves insufficient, decision making abilities fade away as realization sets in.
Just read about this product today. It is called TacBSR and provides GSM cellular network along with VOIP capability. It is about the size of a laptop and is available for SAR organizations. Here is the link for more information – this is a nice piece of equipment and certainly is portable.
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/031507-military-systems-provide-instant-cell-phones.html
1138 – brewdude, I think you are right. Education is great if people pay attention, but there will always be a need for excellent SAR.
I just read a People Magazine article about the West/Cheney families from OR who won a 340 Million Dollar Powerball lottery in ’05. They have some sort of foundations set up to donate to non-profit organizations in So. Oregon.
I wonder if they would consider grants to equip SAR units? I don’t know the names of their foundations, haven’t had a chance to search them out as yet.
Just a thought.
Story about the Chaney and West families:
http://www.kgw.com/news/specialreports/stories//kgw_112006_special_lotto_family.b45096e.html
Links to the two foundations are at the end of the story.
Thanks, Ellen, I’ve been away since right after I posted this and hadn’t had a chance to look for the foundations. I think it would be worth a try, unless there are restrictions at the SAR end at what can be donated. I think SAR would be a very worthy cause, were I in the position of these families.
They have kept their heads, it appears, and are trying to maintain the values of a “normal” life while enjoying their winnings. I believe Mr. Cheney, Mrs. West’s father, has passed away since they won, which is sad.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,259401,00.html
I wonder if they are using FLIR in their search efforts for this Boy Scout.
Glenn – yes, they have a chopper with a FLIR like system…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070320/ap_on_re_us/missing_boy_scout
This one mentions “heat sensing” equipment.
Hope it turns out well.
Amazing how my eye catches the SAR stories now. in Humboldt htey are looking for a missing diver. Found the boat but no Diver. that one is less likely to end well. water is cold there and diver has been missing 3 days. Lesson to learn.
NEVER, no matter how experienced you are go diving alone
They found him alive!!! Great end to a tragic story!
Four days on his own! Boy Scout found alive.
http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/M/MISSING_BOY_SCOUT?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=HOME
Way to go SAR!!!
Another good ending. we like those.
Purdue…
Sometimes there is just such incredible incompetency!
Freshman was visiting the Owen Dorm prior to going to a fraternity party. He later made two calls trying to get into the dorm to retrieve his coat and was last seen near the entranceway. His cell phone was ‘live’ for five days indicating an interior location away from cold and severe precipitation. Yet it took two months to find his corpse in the locked utility room where bumbling about in the dark he seems to have contacted a 440volt wire. The only light switch is at the other entrance to the utility room.
Sure he was an idiot to trade his life for a coat no matter how cold it was that January night, but how much of an idiot was the guy in charge of the search?
I saw on the news video of SAR walking also carrying handheld flir equipment in North Carolina. It looked pretty cool!
Seattle papers are reporting on a couple who drowned while crossing a log over a creek in Mt Rainier Nat Park.
paulj
Glenn – thx for the Boy Scout update – GREAT news out there in NC!
Fools Gold – I was wondering about that Purdue search. They’d checked the closet but apparently did not check it thoroughly because it was “too dangerous” to do so. Ummm….maybe the danger of that room was a clue?
Two girls missing in Texas…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,260063,00.html
Girls found in Texas…a little roughed up but seem to be ok. Police are now looking for who abducted them.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,260063,00.html
Purdue,,,
Danger? So you call an electrician who has a flashlight and a hardhat and knows what he is doing. Whats so difficult about that if you are too afraid to grab a flashlight and go in yourself and simply watch where you are walking.
I just don’t see it being a task that takes over two months. Ofcourse he was probably dead within the first few minutes, but still: a certain degree of common sense amongst the searchers is expected even if its not often present amongst college freshmen.
paulj..
A couple of things I have learned while spending a lifetime in the woods by myself. 1-Never cross a log anywhere, the danger is to high of the log breaking , rolling, sheding bark, or loosing ones balance. 2-Never jump anywhere. It’s better to wade than the risk of a broken ankle or worse. If you’re three days from the trail head, by yourself, a small injury can be deadly.
1158 – I think it’s all those reruns they’ve shown recently of “Dirty Dancing”. Patrick Swayze makes dancing across that log high over the creek look way too easy.
I’m pretty uncomfortable with log crossings. As you say, they can be uncertain for a number of reasons. Fortunately most that I’ve needed to use have been enhanced with tread material and even handrails in some cases.
Pictures and comments on sites like
http://www.wta.org/~wta/cgi-bin/wtaweb.pl?4+blog+thread+ed+299
and NWHikers
suggest that in this Ipsut creek case, the killer was the high water and log jams downstream. Rains and snow melt had raise the creek level to at least 4′, and close to the bottom of the log.
It is not entirely clear, but I get the impression that the party was returning to the trailhead, having successfully crossed the creek earlier on the way in. If so they were faced with that dilemma of whether to risk the crossing, or wait for water levels to drop – the potentially deadly pressure to keep going.
paulj
So a lack of a desire to be stranded for atleast one extra day lead to taking an unsafe risk? Or simply that the risk was knowingly taken but simply turned out to be a bad result. I wonder if any sort of ‘trick’ could have been employed: circus performers carry that horizontal pole to lower their center of gravity. Could the hikers have crossed the log in a more secure manner? The pressure to return to the parked vehicle can be greater than the pressure to push deeper into a forrest, but the consequences can be the same.
Unfortunately, everyone depends upon cellphones in an emergency. The problem is what IF they don’t work. It’s too bad that the Kims didn’t have a simple Family Radio Service portable radio transmitting on FRS Channel 1 (462.5625 mhz) and aviation assets had the capabilities to monitor & respond to this frequency. Here in Massachusetts the Mass State Police is responsible for all SAR operations and the MSP State Police Helicopters have the capabilities to basically communicate on any frequency. A few years back the MSP Communications Director, told me that if they were aware that a missing/lost person had a particular radio transmitting on a specific frequency, those aero assets would definitely have a radio tuned to that frequency & be monitoring for calls for assistance. Unfortunately, the FRS channel 1 concept, really hasn’t been developed enough with the general population. Surely all of us radio nerds know about this. It is not a substitute for using a cellphone in an emergency BUT more as a backup IF the cellphone doesn’t work. Surely there won’t be 24 hour monitoring of this frequency but IF a search & rescue mission is launched, aero assets could be monitoring for potential calls for help. IF I remember correctly Mrs Kim stated that they had heard aircraft in the distances at times BUT had no way of signalling. I hope to run some airborne tests here in Massachusetts in late spring to determine how well the FRS ground to air communications concept will really work!
Ofcourse someone who failed to have water, food or blankets in the car would hardly have a standy radio with him.
I note that the FRS is intended for short range recreational use such as hikers, motorcyclists, etc. and that the use of one channel for calling is solely a tradition, not a frequency restriction.
I wonder if these radios even bear warning placards about broadcasting distress message on the hour and half hour and avoiding non-emergency use at those times.
A two mile range would be wonderful in many situations particularly if the range is greater when trying to reach an aircraft’s antenna.
Here’s a site that says on Sundays once a month there is emergency FRS practice in DC. The participants get on a prearranged channel and bounce messages across DC at 8 PM. Notice the mentioned advantage of “simple, reliable and portable.” Altitude works wonders to extend the range of these FM radios.
http://www.stephensonstrategies.com/2006/03/14.html
Also, there was an incident in upstate Oregon, probably within the last two years, where some brothers playing with toy walkie talkies received an emergency message from off MT. Hood [two climbers, one with broken leg I think]. The older boy told his father who called authorities. The rescue was started and was successful. Anybody remember or have the details? The boys were rewarded with a ride in a fire truck.
After the Kim search I vowed to purchase a PLB as I spend a lot of time in remote areas usually alone. I bought one with a built in GPS for more precise location information ($650.00?) I received it about three weeks ago and immediatly registered it and put it in my pack. Sure enough!! 2 days ago about seven miles up the Illinois River from Agness, in a very remote area, a friend with me broke both bones in his lower left leg. After careful consideration of all options I chose to activate the PLB, leave another friend with the victim, and start out for help. The signal was picked up immediatly, the coast guard dispached and the friend found and hoisted all in about 3 hours. In talking to the coast guard yesterday in North Bend the were amazed at how well it all worked out as this was the first rescue they had done in the forest with a PLB involved. To quote the Petty Officer I talked to “I wish everyone out there had one of those!” Due to the terrain it may have taken several days to haul my friend out with a stretcher crew and then you have shock and internal injuries to worry about. In closing let me say JAMES KIM LIVES ON.
I haven’t read of the Hood case involving the boys, but it should be easy to find print accounts of a girl in Marysville, Washington (north Seattle burbs), who picked up a FRS call from an injured hiker or climber quite some distance away in the mountains to the east (Glacier Peak area). I believe that was sometime in the late 1990s.
paulj
Here’s the Marysville case:
http://www.f-r-s.org/e-news/F-R-S.org,np2000-0926,01p01.htm
This ARRL newsletter mentions both the Marysville case and a Mt Hood case – both in 2000 apparently (2/3 of the way down)
http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/00/0929/
Thanks,paulj. I am amazed it’s been almost 7 years since those brothers heard the distressed hikers. Zipitydoodah! Time is just flying by.
Strange story to share..
I just finished another call on Bear Camp. 911 received a call from two females in a Ford Escape that was stuck in approx 7 inches of snow between 18 and 21 mile marker on BCR. She had seen a snow plow just a few miles back (same one Kati saw)They were told to wait at their veh and SAR would come get them. The female called 911 back and said that a man had gotten them unstuck and they were continuing on. I asked her if she was headed back down to GP. She said that no, she would be taking a lower gravel road in the direction of the coast. I pleaded with her not to leave FS23 if she was to continue that direction. She stated she didn’t care if she made it to Gold Beach, they just wanted out of the snow! (sound familiar?)She said if she got stuck again, she would call back. I did advise her that she would not have cell coverage further up the road. I lost her call at that point.
I got another call about 10 minutes later. She called back and I spoke to the man that helped them. He was going to take them down Burnt Ridge Road. I pleaded with him to bring them back down to GP and direct them towards 199. At that time, he stated that another family had just pulled up to the intersection (guess which one?). He agreed to lead them all back down to GP.
He just called and said that they all made it off of the mtn. I was amazed!
FS and BLM have not fixed the signage up there yet. The snow level tonight is at 2000 ft. All signs still say “May be blocked.”
Please, I urge all of you to call BLM/FS and beg/demand that they put more signage up there! This was like talking to Kati on the phone! The only sign that this lady saw was the one that Kati saw when it was too late. They would have made the exact same decision! Please don’t give up! I will call tomorrow again as well, but we need your help!
jocosar,
I will try to contact BLM tomorrow. I drove over Bear Camp this afternoon from Agness via Burnt Ridge and it was snowing hard on top. I did check the gate going out to the Big Windy area and it was closed. I did not check the lock but there were no tracks out that way. I met no vehicles on the way over other than Gary from Wild River Lodge headed towards Agness. Hope to see you soon.
Will do Jocosar…thanks for the update.
Also looks like Intel is selling wok’s now!
http://news.com.com/2300-7351_3-6170606-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg
Joe – didn’t John James say he was going to get some volunteers together with BLM to make the necessary signage changes? Any word on that?
1173 – I was just talking about that last night. I haven’t heard anything about that yet. I would be up there to help in a heartbeat! I know quite a few SAR folks who would go as well.
1165 – John, I am convinced…you need to write a book!
The call for the assistance yesterday came in at about 5pm. You must have just missed them all.
The gentleman that helped them is an independant contractor that works for John West (owns snowcat). It’s odd to me what an odd sense of security seeing that snowcat up there has brought people. I was wondering if we should ask Mr. West if he would put a sign on it that says something like “privately owned and operated?”
Maybe the sign should say:
If you should find your car perilously stuck in the cold snow
miles from anywhere, please find the nearest
“ROAD CLOSED DUE TO WINTER SNOW”
sign, and flip it up into viewing position.
“Road Closed Due to Winter Snow” sounds more like an administrative classification of ‘closed’ due to a general season of the year and does not necessarily indicate a present state of being impassable due to recent snow storms.
“Road Often Closed by Winter Snows” or “Road Often Blocked By Deep Snow During Winter” or . . . .
Does anyone know what additional signs does BLM have in mind? They had ordered some last fall and installed them in December.
Has the snow been normal this year, or more sporadic? I get the impression from the news reports that you’ve had more valley snow this year. But at the same there have been times where it was possible drive over Bear Camp. It sounds as though the Burnt Ridge route (2308) has more sun exposure than the west half of 23, and hence less likely to be blocked by snow drifts.
If climate changes as many models show, this kind of situation could become more common. That is, warmer over all with less persistent snow pack, but also more snow storms that block midlevel roads for a few weeks at a time.
paulj
JoCoSAR, I just popped in for a second, but good to see by you and John Rachor both. Amazing the signs are still not preventing people from the same danger.
Good to hear you bought a PLB John Rachor, a very responsible thing to do in light of recent events, and to use it in an emergency for your friend in a rugged canyon with a seriously broken leg. I am very glad that the Coast Guard was able to respond and lift him out of the canyon and to the hospital in such a short period of time. Even though I don’t hike/explore on the ground myself anymore (total hip replacement 9 years ago from a rock climbing fall) like you do, I will now order one too, because after seeing the inconsistant signal bounce of the ELTs from the recent two airplane crashes in our Southern Oregon area (meaning a search area of over 200 square miles each). I understand a PLB dials the location to within a couple hundred feet, big difference!!
Hey JoCoSAR, get your installation volunteers ready, there just may be some visible to all signage coming for that troublesome route to the coast.
Randy Jones,,,
You mentioned inconsistent signal bounce from ELTs which causes expansion of the search area. Upthread I mentioned a pilot trick of puting the airplane into a steep bank so that one wing blocks the antenna as the pilot does a 360. The same procedure a few minutes later gives a pretty good ‘fix’ on an ELT. Don’t know if it would give a fix on some cliff that was bouncing the signal or not.
(1177) I was attempting to propose signage to get the drivers’ attention, by letting her/him think he/she would be responsible for activating the nearest road closed sign once she/he was hopelessly stuck in the snow. Less emphasis on the wording of the sign, more emphasis on the irony of closing the barn door after the horse is stuck in the snow might have been more clear. Sorry.
Maybe the sign should say:
“If you should find your car perilously stuck in the cold snow miles from anywhere, please find the nearest, ‘Road Closed! Vehicle hopelessly stuck in the snow and blocking the roadway,’ sign, and flip it up into viewing position, so others won’t find themselves in the same predicament you’ve put yourself in.”
Sign advocates,
I spoke with several BLM employees yesterday about putting up some signs on Bear Camp Road that would GRAB peoples attention as the standard yellow signs with the bright diamonds above are obviously not working. I was left with the impression that their hands are somewhat tied by federal standards and they could not go out of the box. With that in mind I asked the sign company I use to make me a sign 3’X 5’as soon as possible that will read “DANGER!!!, REMOTE ROAD SYSTEM AHEAD, YOU COULD GET STRANDED AND DIE!!!” with a bright red back ground. I will install it as soon as it is done. This may sound like a radical message but if it causes one unprepared motorist to turn around it is worth it. I’m not in favor of closing this road system as many of us use it that are prepared.
John Rachor – Kudos to you! All the time a bunch of us sat around here trying to get someone official to do something with more impact – I never thought of someone “non-official” just doing it. If it takes being outside of the box in order to do something practical outside of the box, then so be it and thank goodness for someone like you willing to make it happen. Now *that’s* a warning sign! Let’s keep the roads open and the uninformed in the know. You are amazing from the start of all this through to even now. Thank you.
Having their hands tied by the Federal standards was one thing I have been saying for the past few months. However, that shouldn’t stop them from trying to come up with something. Hope John’s sign works and that someone doesn’t tear it down.
The sign I ordered should be ready in the morning. I will have it up in a day or so. I have spoken with some locals at the bottom of Bear Camp Road about installing it on, or near, their property. I think this will prevent someone stealing it for their bedroom wall. If this proves feasable I will have more made for the less traveled access routes to this area. If anyone has any suggestions on a better message please let me know as I am just shooting from the hip here.
John – I think it is perfect! Please call me if you need help installing it (or any future signs). I would be happy to help in anyway possible. If nothing else, please take a photo and share! You are such good people! Thank you.
John sounds as good as the Skull and Crossbones approach – it should get the message across! Great job!
John Rachor,
I admire your determination and follow-through admist the obstinate bureaucratic obstacles!
My only concern is whether people will truly take it seriously or think of it as some kind of practical joke.
Some people might question it, because it doesn’t explain
why you could get stranded, other than the roads being remote. And even if it’s on private property, local kids may try to steal it because it’s kind of special and radical.
If drivers see it, it will probably make them think twice, and possibly be more hesitant as they proceed. (Which might cause them to turn around sooner!)
I think it’s worth a try, and definitely better than nothing!
Here is another possible idea:
DANGER! NO WINTER THRU ROUTE/ DANGEROUS ROAD CONDITIONS &
UNMARKED ROADWAYS AHEAD
I think the more people who give input the better, because
then we have the thoughts of a diverse sample group from the population to work with.
It would be interesting to know what Kati would suggest.
“remote road system ahead” seems uniformative and contradictory.
Lisa’s suggested text seems more informative of the dangers that are faced: a high probability that winter snows have blocked the various roads including the coastal route, that winter traffic is sparse, that snowplows are rare and that all the roads in the area are poorly marked.
Winter travel hazardous. Roads likely blocked by snow.
“Route to coast blocked by snow until spring thaw.
Road not plowed or patrolled”
You can stop some of the people all the time. You can stop all the people some of the time. But you can’t stop all the people all the time.
The Governors task force recommendations on SAR efforts in the future are being released today, recap of findings in today’s Oregonian story:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1175658925288200.xml&coll=7
Very good, BureauCat. Perhaps Roads not plowed… .
I think the newspapers ‘recap’ was a bit short on facts but fairly set forth the situation. The shortcomings seem to be procedural and communication oriented. A simple uniform checklist might help: Aviation Resources: Fixed Wing. Aviation Resources: Rotary Wing. If each is on the form, atleast coordinators will consider each one. Same with terminology for just what ‘road has been searched’ means.
I don’t think the lack of credit card information really hindered the search but am not certain.
Health insurance and training for searchers would provide a stable core group of volunteers and this might help.
I think John nailed it…if you don’t get it after reading his sign…you probably wouldn’t get if the road were gated and locked.
No need to back down on the message – they already have tried that with miserable results. Now it is time for straight-forward speak that gets right to the point – If you go here you could die.
1192, Paul thanks for the update and link. It is good to see some of the organizational elements of centralized data collection. Now we can focus on things they might miss or things we think will be worthwhile.
Boy this has been a long wait to get this info.
Anybody have access to the full report?
My guess is we’ll access somehow within a few days. Others have proven to be better sleuths than I in the past, many of whom are probably still observing…it will surface.
I have it…I can see if I can get permission to share it and see if Joe can post it for us.
Our newspaper also called today and they have a pic of Johns sign. I think that they are going to do a front page article tomorrow. I will scan it and post it with the photos of the area. Great job John…again!
I sent the report to Joe. Now we just have to wait for him to check his email and post it for us….
Wow, thanks JoCoSAR. Very interested to see .
John R’s sign warning that you can “get stranded and die” is pretty straightforward, direct… and accurate.
Hey, you are here Maggie!! If I email the report to you, can you post it? Is it much work?
News does travel fast! Blaze Sign of Medford made the sign yesterday at no charge. I installed it this morning with help from local property owners in the Galice area on their property about 1/2 mile up Bear Camp road. Thanks to everyone for all of the input. Sara, I was going to ask you to help install it but if I had to put it on BLM land I saw no reason for both of us to go to jail! Actually I showed it to several BLM employees on the way over to Galice and they were very supportive of our efforts. I thought for the next one I might try a different approach. Something like “BE CAREFUL UP HERE, THIS ROAD IS BAD, IF YOU GET STRANDED, WE’LL ALL BE SAD, BURMA SHAVE”. What do you think of this idea folks?
1201 – All that and a sense of humor!! I can’t wait to see the article tomorrow. I will make sure to scan it for you. I was going to email you, but your business card doesn’t have your address on it. Can you email me at ibesara1@charter.net so that I have it? Thanks…
Actually those Burma Shave signs really got the travellers attention and nowadays I guess one has to start the sign out with ‘ www. ‘.
The worst sign that is actually up there is far better than any ideal sign that is yet to be erected, so congratulations for getting a job done. On a map its an attractive shortcut to the coast, in reality its a hazardous wintertime trap for the unwary or anyone whose focus is on other matters than safety. At night in a snow storm the route is a danger and those who press onward hoping for a way out of their predicament will only get into more remote and rugged territory. Some sort of warning sign is good. It may not make people think of water, food, blankets, gasoline, etc. but it will atleast make them aware of the dangers as opposed to proceeding blindly along an attractive shortcut.
John great work! Nice to see something finally happen!
It seems it is an easier decision for our government to lob a few missles at someone than it is to get a sign put in place!
Burma Shave – now that is funny!
ps – Jocosar – thanks for getting the report to Joe.
Hello Folks –
Sorry but I got really sick after the California trip (see, we should have stayed in lovely Oregon!). Just checking in here now and email is backed up a long way…
With thanks to JoCoSAR for getting the Governor’s Search and Rescue Task Force Report to me, I’ve posted it here:
http://www.maggieweb.com/kimfamilyfiles.html
Great, thanks Maggie!
John’s sign is on the front page of our newspaper! It is great! The paper says that he took the photo, maybe he can email it to me and I can post it to the photobucket site where the road photos are? You are all going to love it! Good article written as well. I wish our paper was online!
Well the plot thickens! The old couple who helped me put up the sign said they had owned the property since the ’50s. I was informed by the BLM that actually it is a mining claim, owned by the BLM, that they have been living on since the ’50s. As it is an unapproved sign on BLM land they have asked me to remove it. I have not. I did tell them I would contact another landowner (deeded) in the area and ask permission to move the sign the their property. I did that. They have agreed pending confirmation from other family members who are out of town. I will visit them on Wednesday when they return. Plan B is to ask for approval from BLM on their land but Jim Roper tells me that decision cannot be made in this area and must move up the chain of command… Who would of thought it would be so hard to maybe save someones life.
John I hope your sign finds a good home that is still visible and effective in its purpose.
Is there anyway to get a petition going? Would that help at all?
1209/John: Great effort John, sad they are giving you so much aggravation over trying to save a life. I’m beginning to think BLM stands for Bury (you) with Layers of Management or Besotted Laborious Mess…
What was the link to the photo of John’s sign ?…can’t seem to remember or find it. Thanks!
Glenn 1210,
Thanks for the offer of the petition but I think this will all work out. The road is plowed all the way over now so we should have a little time unless we get another bad snow storm.
😀 Attention 😀
Here are some pictures of the new sign John asked me to post:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2007/04/08/new-bear-camp-road-warning-signs/
Great work John – now THAT’s a warning sign!
Add candles, religious symbols, some plastic flowers and the sign becomes a memorial to those lost up there. From my observations around Oregon, these shrines are becoming more prevalent in the public right-of-way and are permitted by a law passed by the last legislature.
BTW – The new Google mapping mashup tools are available and it is a perfect platform to create the memorial maps site. Anybody interested in working together to get a end-user maintained memorial mapping site up?
For those whose might not have read the previous discussions we had talked about putting up maps with markers that allowed people to post memorial information about someone who encountered misfortune on a route. Similar to what you see today on the sides of roads (white cross, etc) but we can do it electronically. So when someone maps out a trip they can overlay the memorial map and get additional input on how dangerous their planned route might be.
The saddest aspect of the BLM’s response to John R’s sign is that if some scofflaw dumped a car, a substantial heap of garbage, maybe a dead animal in the same spot, it would take the BLM 6 months to a year to respond to the litter. But 3 days to react to this reasonable sign? Really!
A public service minded person like John could figure out that the most logical response to the sign would be a thank you for-doing-in-a-hurry-what-we-will-do-after-a-while letter, explaining that the BLM would ignore the private sign until bureaucracy’s slow wheels were able to crank out an official attempt to accomplish sign wording and placement with the same effect. A little benign bureaucratic neglect would go a long way in this situation. The BLM has many good attributes, but speed and efficiency aren’t necessarily two of them. The fact that the stuck-in-the-snow season is almost over means that maybe tourists will only get lost but not dangerously stranded up there until fall.
1213, 1215 – John maybe you need to add a picture of James Kim to the sign.
We’ve asked him to remove the sign because its not authorized,” said Howard Hunter, a spokesman for the BLM’s Medford office. “Our signing needs to be consistent and
appropriate for what we do. We have certain standards, and his sign doesn’t meet any of our standards.” Oregonian 4/11/2007
Maybe that’s why the BLM’s signing is ineffective. You know the old saying. “If you keep doing the same thing expecting different results….”
The article does say that the BLM will let John R. take the sign down himself, so maybe that is an indication of the benign bureaucratic neglect the sign needs to help direct out-of-towners away.
(or more correctly,out-of-Bear-Camp-Roaders)
1219, isn’t that amazing. John looks like you need to adjust the language to “may be”, or “it could be possible” to meet their standard. Guess more people have to die before they wake up.
Glad they don’t maintain the “standards” for poison labeling.
Wow, this made the “quick poll” on my favorite talk radio show here in Portland. So far people are voting that John R’s sign is a good thing (one of those votes was mine). This link might not be the same tomorrow (new poll each day), but if you take a peek now, you can see it.
http://www.1190kex.com/pages/cult_photo.php
The latest thing to happen out there on Bear Camp Rd., is another–yes, another–big rig was directed to go that route, because Hwy. 199 wouldn’t or couldn’t accomodate him; thus, he got struck and spun his wheels, causing a fire. It should be on the boob tube tonight–April 17th. I guess the LE finally contacted the dispatcher and told them what was up about this route and big rigs. This is another headshaker! And, John’s sign didn’t stop this ding-a-ling from taking this route, so…what’s with people. Do they think signs are just there for the crazy shooters…or what?
17 April 2007
2007 PULITZER PRIZE WINNERS
The staff of the Oregonian, of Portland, won in breaking news for its coverage of a family lost in the mountains during a blizzard. James Kim and his family took a wrong turn while returning home to San Francisco following a Thanksgiving trip. Kim was found dead after his wife and two young daughters were rescued. The judges praised the newspaper for its “skillful and tenacious coverage.”
“Our thoughts today are with the Kim family, for, as our reporting showed, this is a tragic accident that might have been avoided,” said Peter Bhatia, the Oregonian’s executive editor. From USA Today, 17 April 2007
http://archive.mailtribune.com/archive/2007/0418/local/stories/bearcamptrucker.htm
🙂 Attention 🙂
Hi Folks – we talked about having a get together at Galice Resort this spring for anybody who has participated here at the blog. If you are interested throw out some good dates in May and/or June of this year.
Joe,
Galice resort get together sounds fun, just pick a date.
Also would you contact JoCoSar and ask her to contact me as I have been unable to get throught to her.
Thanks
I just happen to have an IN at Galice, if you all want to make a reservation! (wink) (wink) NOT THE LAST WEEKEND IN MAY that is a HUGE weekend here (memorial weekend AKA Boatnik)
John R just and FYI JoCoSAR has been out of town all week.
I am excited about a get together! Especially in my back yard! Let me know what I can do to help!
John I just sent JoCoSAR your phone and email and said to contact you…
RogueRiverRat thanks for that reminder. I think Galice Resort would be a great place to get together – maybe out on the deck for a buffet lunch or somthing. I’m going to send out an email next week to people who might be interested in this and then we can try to pick some dates.
Here’s the article about the stuck truck story caver mentioned a above:
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070418/NEWS/704180328
Truck incident:
My impression from the article is that the driver was experienced and acted reasonably and that he worked for a well-run truck company.
I wonder about the sheriff’s comment about inability to notify all trucking companies versus the BLM’s insistence that an unauthorized sign be removed.
I do hope Rand McNally will take action but am sure there will be a time lag no matter how promptly the map company acts.
This particular truck was empty. One wonders about hazardous cargo or simply more flammable cargo. The event could have been far worse and I would really like to see if someone could do a split screen video of the truck burning on one side of the screen while a bureaucrat prattled on about non-standard signage on the other side of the screen.
I’m a little puzzled about all this dumping on the local BLM office for following the bureaucratic rules. After all, failure to follow procedures contributed to James Kim’s death. BLM engineers had determined that the BLM logging road should be normally gated and locked. But someone had locked it open with a nonstandard lock (was that a private party, or a departmental employee?), and various BLM employees who worked down that road did not report the problem.
paulj
I think its more a reaction to the exceptional haste with which the BLM is suddenly able to respond to someone who challenges them but is otherwise bogged down and unable to get anything done.
If you are interested in getting together with some of the other blog comment folks later this spring and I haven’t already heard from you, please send me an email ASAP: jhunkins@gmail.com
REACH MedEvac Corvallis Finances
Although the average bill for a helicopter medevac is ten thousand dollars one wonders how a company can offer free evacuation for 45 dollars a year if their ten thousand dollar charge is a fair one and whether its administration of such a program is a cost effective use of its resources.
I will be there in Spirit at the gathering this summer. can’t get out of Kansas though.
Brewdude,
Sorry you can’t make it to Galice. I had a soft ice cream cone at the Galice Store today for you. The thermometer said 87 degrees! Still a lot of snow at the top of Bear Camp but the thermo. said 63 degrees up there so it won’t last long.
Good Evening Everyone!!! I am glad to see everyone still sticking around here! I am excited to hear about the get together! Can’t wait….
I just want to share a little story with you that happened today.
As most of you know I am the Manager at Galice Resort (I know cats out of the bag now!) so as our season progresses we get many questions about “how to get to Gold Beach” and many a visitor with map in hand saying “Where is this road” walking in our door. Today we had not only that but a reporter from the LA Times asking questions about the Kim Incident (as he called it). That is another story! But here is the happy one…….
At 7:30pm just about on the dot, tonight a lady came in and they were driving a little sedan type car. She walked in and stated that she wanted to get to Gold Beach, HOWEVER she had turned up “Galice Creek” road and read a sign (Hhhhmmm wonder whose sign she read!) She wanted to know how serious she and her family (who was in the car) should take the sign. Simply put I said “The sign is as serious as its words”.
She and I proceeded to talk about the road because of course she has been over it when she was a young girl and her trip out today was to show her family her old “stomping ground” however she always remembered the road as rough and windy and her father always being very serious about being carful and prepared when traveling that particular road.
Long story short in the end the lady asked for the easiest way back to Grants Pass and the route to Gold Beach via the highway, and thanks us for the information we could give her about the road and its condition. Now if everyone would just read the sign and turn around as she and her family did…..WOW!
Just wanted to share that tid bit with everyone because I know you all love to hear about the impact we are making towards this all. Looks like John’s sign is making the difference we hoped for!
I think you might have suggested she have dinner at then make her decisions based on the presence of food, water, blankets, tools and signaling gear in the vehicle and suggest to her that someone know her specific location and estimated time of arrival in Gold Beach. This would provide her with sufficient knowledge of the seriousness of the area and the situation she and her vehicle were in. She would probably have made that “u-turn” after serious and informed reflection. That serious and informed reflection is the goal, not the ‘u-turn’. This one incident of and in itself is sufficient to justify the existence of the sign. I don’t know if that particular U-turn saved a lot of volunteers from having to be called out for a search or not, but the sign did its job. It caused her to have a greater awareness of her situation and a heightened concern for her safety.
Cool story about the sign and your intervention, good work.
In case anyone is wondering what “Dutch Brothers” is all about, there was a profile in the Oregonian today on this famed local coffee outlet. Not directly related to the Kim story, to be sure, but many souls here stayed awake late into the wee hours at the height of the blogging frenzy with the help of their products:
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1178591123144880.xml&coll=7
RRR – Wow. Wow.
Paul – Nice find! Dutch Bros is *it*.
It’s looking unlikely that I’ll be able to make the “reunion,” but not completely out of the question quite yet. I would love to meet as many of you as possible and give John Rachor a big hug (Joe Duck for this place, too). Fingers crossed.
RRR,
Great to ‘see’ you here! Thanks so much for posting that story. And of course Many Thanks to John for getting the sign and working out the details with the BLM –
GREAT JOB! 8)
Excellent story RRR…thanks…as many of you I am working through scheduling to be up and look foward to meeting everyone as well…also want to try that Dutch Bros coffee!!!
R3, great story! John’s sign is fantastic, I love it.
So glad to see all of you are still visiting. I’d love to make the trip up, but it’s not likely at this time.
http://news.com.com/Photo+Solar-powered+flashlight/2300-11392_3-6185309-1.html?part=rss&tag=6185309&subj=news
New solar powered flashlight…
🙂 Attention 🙂 IMPORTANT
The June gathering in Galice may be rescheduled to the next day. Send me email if you need more details. I’m not posting it here because we need to know how many are coming to this.
jhunkins@gmail.com
I crossed the Bear Camp route on Memorial day, after spending nearly two weeks further east in Oregon. Here are my observations:
– The turn off onto BLM 34-8-36 is easy to miss (as Stivers apparently did in March). The main clue is the Gold Beach distance sign. So Kim’s must have been paying a lot of attention to at least this type of sign. They apparently also saw the similar sign at the FN23 junction.
– if you miss this turn off, the Galice resort, with its ‘This is Galice’ sign is the next thing you see.
– If I hadn’t been looking for it, I might have missed the new sign. It is too high on a tree. Shape is also non standard, reminding me of common rural business signs (‘tree removal’, ‘dozer for hire’, etc).
– The Peavine detour lives up to its name. I’ve driven steeper, narrower, and curvier roads, but they were gravel or native surface, not chip seal. Galice Access might not be as steep, but it still has to climb 2000-3000′ in a short distance.
– River shuttle traffic added a significant dimension to this road, especially the Peavine piece.
– FN 19 near Oakridge (off OR 58) has an interesting sign: ‘Not maintained for snow or ice’. That could be a useful addition to Bear Camp.
– From the Peavine junction to FN 23, BLM 34-8-36 is comparatively level and wide.
– 2 sets of strips were drawn on the BLM pavement at the FN 23 junction, suggestion that they intend to cut rumble strips.
– While FN 23 starts out narrow, there are plenty of wide spots and junctions where one could turn around, if snow blocks the way.
– There is a well used picnic spot and overlook on FN 23 just past the summit.
– FN23 on the Agness side has a lot of roadbed damage, making it a rougher and more tedious decent.
– It took us 3 hrs to drive from Merlin to Agness. The Cougar Lane store was a welcomed rest stop. Gold Beach is still as ways to go, on a two lane, but still curvy road.
– OR 42 from Brandon to Roseburg still has lots of curves. But much of it has guardrails, so it is hard to imagine someone going over the edge without leaving clues. In contrast, on the Bear Camp route, there are plenty of opportunities to go over the edge.
– the sweet potato fries at Riffles in Merlin are worth a long wait.
paulj
Overland Park, Kansas.
17 year old girl seen on store surveillance camera to have been leaving Target store followed by young man without any purchases who seemed to be studiously avoiding looking at the attractive girl wearing shorts.
Cell phone signals lead to shallow creek where her corpse was found. No word on cause of delay in processing cell signals other than a whitewash sounding: “Police said it took this long to locate the pings because they were following multiple leads and wanted to fully analyze the data.”
Just a small note and observation since we all have thrown around the sign idea’s on here numerous times, Forrest Service or BLM whom ever dosen’t want to take credit those infamous signs of “Road MAY be closed” that can be flipped, are now covered with black plastic and duct tape so they can not be read at all now. My comment to the signs………..They have the time to cover them up with plastic and duck tape for the summer months but can’t seem to flip them in the winter……..
“…They have the time to cover them up with plastic and duck tape for the summer months but can’t seem to flip them in the winter”
Media pressure affects bureaucratic responses, but not necessarily injects any wisdom or common sense into such responses. I don’t think I would find it thrilling to go around monkeying about with signs during the winter but would be perfectly willing to get paid to go about it during more pleasant weather.
So what is the solution? Signs that are electronic and remotely accessed? If so, maybe those ten dollar used woks are a good idea: the bureaucrat stays in his office and punches a few buttons, the local firefighters stay in the station playing poker and everyone is happy. A better network of “sign flippers”? Better signs? I laughed at one California sign that read ‘icy road’ and it didn’t take me too long to figure out that it was one of those rotating signs and some prankster had rotated it during a broiling headline-making heatwave. Road MAY be closed is perhaps the logical equivalent of Martian’s saucer MAY be parked ahead. Each sign leaves it to the reader to figure out the probabilities of the current actual condition.
hi guys!!
I have to admit, I am a little bit DRUNK!!! but I remember this website….and all we talked about (despite the legal threats, I am back).
I wonder if you all had the chance to meet each other? I’m still interested, in all the things we discussed….despite the issues…you know what I mean 🙂 hope that is in the past.
any new developments???
Mapper, wow, good to see you. Now you’ve got my curiosity…legal issues?
Hope all is well, and great to see you here! I don’t get by often, but am so glad to find the “regulars” when I visit.
Hi Mapper & Madeline!
Mapper, Madeleine, and Maggie –
Wow, I miss the good old days when there were posts every few minutes around here. Back to boring old computer analysis stuff …
Hope all’s going well for you three. The blog gathering was a lot of fun for the 6 of us and the tour of the area after was super interesting. I really appreciated the time Sara and Emily took to show me around up there.
I tried posting this earlier, but it didn’t go through (maybe it’s stuck in moderation limbo? copied article was too long?). Anyway, this story reminded me a lot of the Kim’s. Since the link didn’t work last time, I’ll just say that the story can be found on kgw.com. Maybe Joe can get the link to work.
Basically, a priest named David Schwartz (52) and his longtime friend named Cheryl Gibbs (61) were last seen in Portland on June 7th while visiting the area from California. They did not arrive home when planned. No activity on bank accounts. They may have gone hiking in the Columbia River Gorge (beautiful area). They were in a maroon, 4-door, 2005 Toyota Corolla with CA license 5MKN560. Car has not been found.
The newscaster also mentioned similarities to the Kim’s with one huge difference – no cell phone.
Hi Mapper, hi everyone…just got back from a week on the Southern Oregon Coast and finally made it to Galice Lodge and said hello to Emily (RRR).
I have been following the missing priest story too.
(re 1099) Oregonlive reports that the Wilsonville woman who went missing in February has been found in the Willamette River near Oregon City.
paulj
Search for two missing California tourists heats up:
When David Schwartz, 52, and Cheryl Gibbs, 61, asked a Wheeler cafe owner for directions back to Portland, the cafe owner told them they could take 101 to 53, which would put them on 26. Or, the owner said, they could take Foss Road, which also would lead them to 26. Foss Road is a narrow windy gravel road that parallels the Nehalem river.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1183258521153980.xml&coll=7
Well, I certainly agree that the Portland Police can’t go running around to half the state’s tourist attractions idly scanning visitors logs and that absent any indication of a specific geographic area it would indeed be up to the staff at the various tourist attractions.
Now as to the advice given I have no idea if the more scenic but rather rugged route was somehow ‘wrong’. Vehicle and driver abilities were not particularly important for the route nor was time of day. Some roads are hazardous at sunset to drivers unfamiliar with dealing with sudden vision problems. Some drivers do have trouble with being tempted by the scenery when they should be focusing on the road and the lack of a guardrail. I am not familiar with the area or the roads. Ofcourse, it seems neither was the driver who went missing.
I recall the time I happened to give advice and a retired couple was spared a 28 mile segment of dark and windy roads that the wife would have found to be particularly distressing. I had just driven that segment in the opposite direction and I truly enjoyed the adventure but was glad of the warnings the map and signage had provided me. I just happened to be at the hotel’s front desk when the couple asked the clerk for directions and I chimed in with my two-cents worth and the couple backtracked one quarter-mile to a different and far, far less-scenic route that was certainly more to their liking and did not have all those 15 mph curves on it. Wouldn’t have been particularly dangerous but the wife did say she got sick if there were a lot of curves. Things like that happen. Would there have been other warnings later on? I don’t know. Would they have been heeded once they had already treked a good bit? I don’t know.
Drivers can face dangers on any type of roadway. Preparation and double checking pay off. Experienced travelers should have perhaps known that.
Car found.
Parked. Apparently in good working order. One mile from a summit on Route 26. It is now thought they simply went for a hike in the area. Search for remains will resume at daybreak. Elsie, OR.
CORRECTION.
Despite earier media reports of the car being found parked as if the pair had gone on a day hike, the car was found wrecked with two corpses inside it.
“…the pair’s crashed car was found about 30 feet down a steep embankment off Highway 26. It was just about a mile west of the Coast Range summit, between Portland and Seaside. Apparently they had driven north to the Nehalem Bay Winery, then ultimately headed back to Portland on Highway 26 when their Toyota Corolla veered across the highway and plunged into the ravine. … ”
No word on what would cause a car to suddenly veer across a highway and down a steep embankment: animal avoidance, over-correction in steering?
Severe front-end damage only. Possible ‘asleep at the wheel’. No immediate indication of wine bottles in wreckage.
Pictures of the crash scene:
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july022007/fatal_folo_7107.php
It is questionable if it would have made a difference, but “Clatsop County Sheriff Tom Bergin said it appeard the pair were not wearing seatbelts at the time of the crash.” Inexcusable & reckless folly in my book to be driving on the highway (or anywhere for that matter) with no seatbelt on, especially in a car that small. My guess is he/she fell asleep at the wheel or it was a major mechanical failure of some kind as there were no skid marks or indications of abrupt avoidance maneuvers.
Wrist watch or dash clock damage may yield time of accdent and perhaps indicate if exhaustion was likely perhaps from strain of driving a poorly maintained road. Tailight filaments may have been illuminated but if not then surely ‘fallen asleep’ is likely. Four decades of working for the coroner and she winds up on the coroner’s table.
There is an article in the Curry County paper (Pilot)(Gold Beach) about an RV that left Bear Camp Rd (FS 23) on the descent toward Agness. I think that was in September 2006. The deputy who investigated concluded that neither occupant was wearing a seatbelt. One person was pinned under the RV. At least one died.
paulj
Eyewitness called 9-1-1 on June 8th to report crash of priest’s car:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_070207_news_911_priest_crash.3781f074.html
Incredible!
Oregonlive article delves into the search after the 911 call in more detail than KGW. While there seems to have some initial confusion as to who had jurisdiction, it sounds as though the search was reasonably careful, given the amount of information they had. (though relatives disagree).
At a different level is the question of why no one made a connection between this 911 call, and the missing persons case. Officially there probably wasn’t a reason to make a connection, since Portland police were handling the missing persons case (starting June 18?), while this June 8 incident was handled by county sheriffs and highway patrol.
But what about media? If there was only one newspaper article about the missing persons, it is very possible that no one involved in the 911 call saw it.
How about some sort of computer search of 911 logs? Assuming jurisdictional hurdles can be handled, what would it take to match information from the missing persons case with the June 8 incident?
Such a search could have helped find two elderly women who got lost and died this year, one the Watsonville woman whose car was recently found in the river, and other the woman who ended up on a forest road in Washington. In both cases, police noticed erratic driving. Is there a better way of making a connection between such reports and searches?
paulj
Search of 911 logs?
It seems the 911 operators were referring to putting the call into the system, so it would have been searchable by time and by type (single vehicle accident no known injuries). About a year ago a forcible abduction of a college freshman from an Orange County,CA apartment complex was not linked for several months to a motorists cellular call about an erratic driver struggling with passenger.
Anyone note the 911 operator’s constant interruptions?
Anyone note the 911 operator’s omission of the ‘1/4 mile west of mile marker’ phrase? Anyone consider it a glaring omission for the 911 operator to have failed to ask: are there any immediately visible signs that will show us where this accident took place such as skid marks or guard rail dents?
Searchable by:
Date and time;
Location (road, milemarker, county, ??);
Type of incident (SVA?);
Status (unresolved, unlocated, etc.)
Atleast one agency typed this into a computer system, but it just languished there amidst all the other entries.
I know the Portland Police had no real reason to focus on a ‘touristy activity in Portland’ versus ‘touristy activity outside of Portland’ but how about: you go to the hotel lobby, you pick up all the brochures showing whats nearby and you consider what explorations such tourists would be likely to engage in? Does anyone know if the hotel lobby features a brochure rack that has Cheese Center flyers in it?
When I heard the 911 tapes today, I had the same thought – what could be done to better match up 911 calls to the missing reports that come later because that sure would be helpful in several cases.
The not wearing seatbelts thing kind of amazes me. I thought almost everyone wore them anymore, especially on a stretch of road like that. I’ve driven it many times, and it always seems like there are crazy people going way too fast and plenty of accidents, plus it kind of twists around a bit and gets narrow in places. Even if I didn’t always wear a seatbelt, I would on that road.
One more thing. If the 911 call came in at 4:16PM, that would seem kind of early in the day to fall asleep at the wheel. I understand that it can and does happen, but it struck me.
Anyone have the impression that this ‘fell asleep (at 4:30pm)’ and the ‘were not wearing seatbelts’ and ‘died instantly’ were attacks made as a defense against expected media attention.
Anyone want to bet that the dispatcher’s logs are going to be pristine?
How big is the haystack?
Anyone have any idea just how big that 911 haystack might be? I know the primary index field is the trailer number they assign to it, but how many entries would there be?
You start with this humungous tape of all the 911 calls, you kick out all the computer codes that would be of no interest, you get rid of all those multiple calls about the same incident or slight differences in descriptions and locations that cause calls to get entered numerous times… and what are you left with? How much of a burder would it really have been to go thru the 911 database and find calls of potential value to this search? Were a couple of tourists mugged in downtown Portland? How many SVAs were there in the area?
According to a KOIN article from June 21
“The two chose Oregon as a vacation destination because they love hiking and the outdoors. Officials believe the two had an emergency somewhere in the wilderness and were unable to return.’
http://www.koin.com/Global/story.asp?s=6694164
It seems that some combination of their belongings (and what they took with them) and information from relatives was pointing the finger at a mishap during a day hike. The eventual problem with that scenario is that no one reported the car at a trailhead. And in June it is much harder to be lost on the way to or from a trail than it was in November.
Maybe the idea of them being lost in the woods like the Kims was too strong on some minds. In reality the case was more like what searchers were expecting before they found the Kim car – that it had gone into some ravine or brush.
paulj
It appears the caller gave a false name and phone number although perhaps its simply a matter of the caller not having given an area code. It seems the family had a prior familiarity with a particular private investigator and so contacted her for assistance.
I would hope the question of the driver’s habits regarding seat belt use are explored promptly. Other than that the only matters remaining are the poorly trained 911 operators and the confusion as to territorial limitations that seemed pervasive.
Kelly Nolan case is now officially a murder case since a body has been found although not yet formally identified. It appears that despite police releasing only the barest minimum of information that the area ten miles south of Madison was searched due to cell phone data. However it seems that the disappearance was June23rd and corpse discovery was July9th so I would wonder about the delay involved.
Corpse formally identified by coroner as that of Kelly Nolan. Twenty-four hour forensic search prior to removal including forensic entomologist despite ‘window’ of death already being very narrow.
Cafe owner reports as employee was aiding inebriated Kelly Nolan but allowed an unidentified man who claimed to be her friend to take control of her.
No explanation yet for delay on cell phone data.
Hi, Maggie, Mapper, everyone: Haven’t been able to stop by much lately, but will enjoy reading though your observations on some of the other incidents. It looks like some interesting links and stories are here to catch up on. Hope all of you are doing well, it’s nice to stop in a Joe’s place and find the regulars and new friends, as well.
Welcome back Madeleine.
The Kelly Nolan murder case in Madison Wisconsin appears to have been another ‘cell phone in rural area’ situation but the data seems to have been obtained very late and not to have been as useful as in the Kim Family search.
The priest/coroner missing from Portland Oregon over a week after they were reported to 911 as a vehicle off the road accident was probably a search procedures error despite a police department that was well trained, well funded and well equipped. All those who felt such problems would be alleviated by concentrating on rural counties with low tax bases will likely be disappointed.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1184729141239130.xml&coll=7
From a study of SAR missions:
“Using a computer model to analyze thousands of Oregon search and rescue missions between 1997 and 2003, researchers found that time is the most important variable in determining whether a person will be found alive. “
1280.
I would think that is predictable but it does provide specific ammunition for having a cadre of “core responders” who get out into the field promptly. So any “extra” dollars would be better spent in communication, training, insurance, transportation equipment rather than an ad-hoc summoning and organizing of volunteer researchers after flyers and public relations releases have been issued.
It also would suggest that prior plotting of GPS coordinates and prior establishment of drone surveillance coordinates would be likely to pay off.
A couple of other SAR items from Oregonlive:
– a stash of gear has been found in a hut at a campground high on the NE side of Mt Hood. It apparently was left by the 3 men who were lost last December.
– A car (Cherokee I believe) was found a short distance down a hiking trail some where outside of Vancouver WA. They are looking for a man who was last seen in Vancouver.
Interesting water purification product…should see the light of day soon (no pun intended).
http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/03/solar-bottle-solar-powered-water-purification-bottle-kills-germs/
Hope all is well with everyone!
Search for Millionaire adventurer Steve Fossett:
More info about Steve Fossett:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h4Tt3Ok0yMNfSsatpddlmScxyEiQ
According to the article:
“Fossett’s plane, a Bellanca Citabria Super Decathlon, had a locator device that sends a satellite signal after a rough landing, but no such signal had been received.
Fossett always wears a Breitling Emergency wristwatch that allows pilots to turn a knob and immediately signal their location, said Granger Whitelaw, a fellow pilot and a co-founder of the Rocket Racing League. But no such signal was activated.”
Hmm. Maybe he had a stroke and the plane ran out of fuel on autopilot and happened to kind of smoothly glide-land by itself on a dry desert lakebed?
Maybe he is just staging his disappearance? Any Ideas?
He had planned to be out flying for four hours. Maybe he intentionally landed on a lake bed somewhere after a couple of hours to take a bathroom break or meditate in the wilderness or something, and then while out of the plane had a medical emergency and never regained consciousness. Anybody else have any ideas?
See comments at dangerdata.com.
Search still underway. Not much hope.
Search continues but with little hope.
See dangerdata.com.
Thanks for the heads-up about dangerdata.com FG. Joe, thanks for all the good work making these sites; I’m adding dangerdata.com to my favorites list. Thanks again and I’ll see you all there.
Dan
that cool! Thanks for the link. Post is nice – no need to prove as comments till date itself tells the story
Great Job..
Another case involving a missing person in a car that crashed into brush.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/333433_crash28.html
This Seattle area woman survived 8 days after the crash. Her cell phone was pinged to help narrow the search area.
paulj
I think it is extremely significant that we note just how long a time had elapses prior to the police attempting to ping the cellphone. This might have been a different result if the battery had died in the interim.
This was along her normal and expected route of travel too.
Shows what intensive image analysis might have done.
I’ve not reviewed the materials closely but is there any indication as to why there was no attempt to either ping the phone and have the results analyzed or simply call the phone and see if she answered? At some point in time the battery would go dead and if exposed to the humidity and cool nocturnal temperatures the battery would be less likely to last.
In the latest TV news, police are saying that bank account activity lead them to believe this was a voluntary missing persons case. But when they learned her husband also had access to the account they put more emphasis on the search. They were in the process of giving the husband a polygraph test when she was found.
It also sounds as though this road had been searched a number of times, including by the husband. It was some matted grass by the road that gave the initial clue. So the car must have been pretty well hidden by brush and blackberry vines.
paulj
Yes, clearly the car was very well concealed and perhaps the husband was not a particularly good searcher yet was the only one doing the searching.
To the extent that the police concluded the account activity was due solely to her activities they should have double checked with the institution and looked at the purchased items to determine if a female was actually using that card. Gasoline? Did the cameras show her car or his car? Photocopy charges? He was the one printing up flyers.
If only the polygraph test had been scheduled for a few hours earlier… he would probably have been told he failed it and the cops would only look at him from that point on.
Then the call could have come in that they had found her alive. Cops would have deserved it.
Yes, an adult has a right to “go missing” either briefly or to embark on a new life, but even a haphazard police investigation should be able to figure these simple ones out.
Local news sources (such as NW cable news) are hot on this topic. It sounds like a matter of police department policies which are designed to allocate resources and determine which cases have priority. In retrospect this looks like a case which should have had higher priority, but I don’t know how it differs from cases which have proven to be time wasters.
paulj
Definitely all over the news here, and I’m so glad to hear that Tanya Rider was found safe. Cell phone. Again. I can’t imagine what her husband went through trying to be taken seriously. My significant other and I keep discussing what we would do, and the best I could come up with was to have him call Detective Mike with hopes that it would help. If I’m ever missing, it’s not because I want to be, but I do understand that there are so very, very many missing persons who either aren’t missing or or missing by choice. I hope Tanya recovers well. 8 days without food or water. Beyond belief.
Found safe? She was found alive but leg was gangrenous.
Cell phone involved but just how much longer would that battery have lasted if the police had delayed even longer while they poured over the squiggly lines of a polygraph examination of the husband?
“matted grass” indicating possible SVA into terrain? Well, hubby missed that matted grass on his trips but how many patrol cars went by it and had not been alerted to a possible SVA on that route she used to return home from work?
You rejoice that she was found alive. Thats good. I’m sure she and her husband and many others are glad too. Even the police who seem to have dropped the ball on this one are undoubtedly glad she was found alive. Though I guess I should avoid that “dropped the ball” analogy since they never really picked up the ball in the first place!! The trouble is that I just can’t imagine how much longer that cell phone battery could have provided any response to the “ping” signal from the cell tower. If the police had waited one more day for the polygraph results they might not have even attempted the cell phone ping or the cell phone ping might have lead to no response at all due to an utterly dead cell phone battery in Washington’s cold, humid climate.
This case may be making some real headlines up there but I think it was very close to making some really worse headlines if there had been any more delay!
A couple of points from the latest Seattle PI article:
– ‘Technicians determine which cellular tower the missing person’s phone last used …’
Sounds like they used the same sort of data that was used in the Kim case. It does not depend on the current position of the phone, or its battery state.
– the disappearance was the morning of the 20th. The husband reported it on the 22nd. They apparently were both so busy with jobs that they kept in touch more by phone than in person. So the delay was not entirely at the police policy level.
The article discusses why missing persons reports are not routinely treated as SAR or criminal cases right away.
paulj
Apparently these records are indeed on the cell provider’s computers and are unrelated to present status of the phone’s battery, just related to the most recent time the phone was on though not necessarily used. These are not billing records so the retention times are not covered by the same CFR regs as billing records but for administrative convenience of the cell phone company are routinely treated as if they were billing records.
I wonder just what the increased workload would be if there were to be prompter access to the records? Just how many adults are reported as missing but do actually show up withing a day having just gone on a drunk or blown off steam somewhere or the like.
The PI article made it sound like phone locating was much more of a privacy issue than a work load or technology one.
“Wireless companies receive thousands of such requests each year, and routinely grante them” according to a Verizon spokeswoman (Seattle PI Sat Sept 29)
paulj
FG, I misspoke when I said “found safe” and perhaps should have said simply “found alive.” It rolled off the tongue and onto the keyboard that way, thinking of being alive as being safe compared to being, well, not alive. Had she not been it would have been a great tragedy, and you can bet that her husband’s life would have been a living hell not only with her gone but also likely under the microscope for a very long time to come because that’s where these things seem to go. That she was found, and alive, is a very good thing. I understand that the husband is very angry that it took as long as it did to find her, and I also understand that there are missing persons protocol reasons LE acted/didn’t act as they did as well, and I do hope that a better process emerges when this is reviewed.
Just a couple of comments about the cell phone tower ping lookups. It may not have received much (or any) coverage during the Kim case, but the employees at Edge Wireless who discovered and released the information were directed not to take the action they had taken. Even after the search was public, the employees were instructed to take no action until the corporate legal counsel was involved on Monday (note they found the girls on Monday). These employees did the searching anyway and turned over the evidence to the authorities on Saturday. These two heroic people were reprimanded the next week for disobeying their higher ups.
With the correct tools and policies these records could be extremely easy to look up (if you’re a unix geek, just imagine a specialized grep tool for the logs). I *guarantee* you that if these were cases related to terrorism – the information and the funds would be freed up much more quickly. I don’t understand why in this country we can’t value the lives of people in *all* situations, not just when it would be politically expedient to do so. (of course I understand it’s made more difficult by our sue happy culture and a myriad of other subtle of not-so-subtle issues).
Scott, I didn’t know that. Thank goodness for those willing to bend rules. It’s a shame sometimes how legalities can impact taking care of business and saving lives and in ways and for reasons you stated. Many of us have said it here before about Eric, but really, again, and especially knowing that, heroic, indeed.
There is a new article in the Seattle PI summarizing information from documents released by the King County Sheriff’s department. According to these records much of the delay resulted from confusion over who had access to the woman’s bank accounts and charge cards. Plus there was the 2 day delay on the part of the husband. According to earlier articles both were working two jobs, and passing each other ‘like ships in the night’.
paulj
Perhaps one of the lessons to be learned is that ‘ships in the night’, if married, should send emails more often or answer cell phones more reliably.
“Confusion” over account access is something that should be resolved promptly. I doubt very many married couples can even keep their own accounts straight much less keep straight which are joint and which are separate.
It’s good to see some familiar names on the board. Howdy Maggie, paulj, Scott and of course Fools Gold! Not much going on here in Southern Oregon. I did spend 4 or 5 days in Nevada on the Fossett search flying out of the “Ranch”. I flew most of the time with Scott Dunn (who landed and picked up Katie and the girls) as he has a new Astar helicopter which performs very well at high altitude and we were assigned the high country (11,000′)north of Yosemite. We did find two other plane crashes but determined they were metal skinned not fabric like the one Steve was flying that day. I counted at least 12 other helicopters flying out of the ranch and the private search was very well organized. For example they gave every helicopter a hand held GPS which was down loaded at the end of every day, to see everyones track, to make sure no area was missed. I don’t believe Steve was suicidal as he had several big projects in the near future such as the land world speed record and a helicopter altitude record. He also had a lunch date with Barron Hilton several hours after his departure time and I understand he never missed those appointments. He did not take his cellphone or his survival bag with epirb as this was going to be a very short flight. Honestly, I don’t have a guess on this one.
I’ve posted a bit on the DangerData site and am glad you’ve been active in the search. I knew of the call for high density altitude helicopters and experienced spotters willing to commit to some time at the ranch. I wonder if you saw any of that fixed wing craft with the ARCHER images and if so what you thought of it.
I understand its a ‘rag and tube’ plane so its basically similar to those aluminum cots (chaises lounges) one finds on a patio or near a pool: a hollow aluminum frame and some sturdy fabric covering it. Not magnetic and not very large.
No survival gear is like not fastening the seat belt because you are just driving across the street… thats when accidents happen! A short sight-seeing flight at a familiar airport is the one a pilot has to be most careful of. Very short flight? Yes. Yet still into a rugged area that is sparsely settled and not overly familiar to him. A five thousand dollar watch that emits a fairly weak signal is better than nothing, but if its lying on his dresser its not worth anything at all.
I wonder if anyone has tried to analyze his path: not in a scientific manner of course and distance. After all, we know he was not going from one place to another but instead was out for a sort of “Sunday Drive”. What I wonder is if YOU were at his last known location, what direction would you have flown in to “see something interesting”. What rising terrain was there? Was he above the cloud cover and lured by some ‘sucker hole’ that wound up being a canyon wherein the terrain rose faster than his rate of climb? Rather than searching “One Quadzillion Square Miles” is there any way to narrow it down to the “really interesting things to see”?
What do you think of the radar track analysis suddenly going to “100 miles distant rather than 50 miles distant”?
I think that is what happened, but there has been confusion when distances are measured from the town of Yerington and also from the takeoff point.
Hi John – good for you to help out down there in the Steve Fossett search. It must be frustrating for them to have so much expert help and technology but still nothing found.
I wonder why there was such poor initial utilization of the local SAR units and why there was a good deal of misunderstanding as to fuel, food, water aboard the aircraft.
What other interests did Fossett have? I understand that there are geological and botanical features of great interest in the area. Even though flying may have been his primary pleasure he might well have had a particular destination in mind that the locals ignore. Sort of the way New Yorkers do not go to the Statue of Liberty unless they have out of town visitors.
Given a 9:00am takeoff what hazards would have been obscured by direct sunlight or cloud banks of that morning?
What was his last known radar track in relation to sun, clouds and wind?
OFFBEAT aid to SAR missions?
It seems wreckage and corpses are often discovered by hunters. Deer Season in Nevada starts soon. Would having advanced the start of deer season by two weeks have helped or hindered?
I don’t know what pilots might feel, but I sure think that ground searchers would not want to be mistaken for deer.
I did see a 3D picture of a NORAD radar track at the ranch that showed the plane departing, heading south, then east towards Hawthorne through what I believe is called “Lucky boy pass”. Since the tracking is done by satellite once it merged with car traffic in the Hawthorne area it was lost in the clutter. I was fueling in Hawthorne one evening and was approached by a local rancher who was out antelope hunting on that day and described the plane coming over the mountains in the area of lucky boy pass, over his Whiskey Flat ranch and turning west towards Mono Lake. I do believe he is in this area southeast (about 30 miles) of the ranch but it has been scoured many times from the air at least.
>”…rancher described the plane coming over the mountain pass and turning west…”
Did you ask what made him notice and recall this particular plane? How many such planes fly over there in an average day? How many does he notice? Maybe if it interfered with his hunting he noticed it, that might be reasonable. Or if he himself were a pilot, but I would wonder about a helpful witness.
Scoured many times without success would mean either the wrong area or totally obscured by terrain such as a lake or very steep, narrow canyon.
FG
I asked him to describe the plane before I told him what kind it was. He told me ” a small blue plane, narrower than a Cessna, with a loud exhaust”. He may have read this info somewhere else but I don’t think so. He said he was out there all day and this may have been the only interuption he had. We are always skeptical of these reports but I passed it along to “ranch command” and they then contacted him for more info. The investigative side of the ranch search was headed up by Sheriff Tim Evinger from Klamath Falls who followed up on all of this type of information.
I recall when the Voyager Project called for searchers to scour an area of the Mojave Desert for a broken propeller blade so that there could be metallurgical analysis: zillions of volunteers walked by it until a little five year old girl reached into a bush and said ‘Daddy, what’s this’. It had been almost vertical inside some shrubbery and was not lying flat the way one might expect to find a thrown prop blade.
Now if some area were thoroughly scoured but not found, thats what I would think of. An unusual attitude wherein the blue color was not visible.
As to the witness, it seems that both you and the sheriff felt he was credible albeit there is still a chance he simply saw and heard some other small blue plane. Perhaps the ‘West toward Mono Lake’ is it. Is there any other destination he might have had to the West? If out for a Sunday Drive he might still have opted to go to a specific sightseeing destination.
wow – can’t believe this thread is still going – as always chock full of amazing information. Hope all is well with everyone.
“…local rancher described the plane coming over the mountains in the area of lucky boy pass, over his Whiskey Flat ranch and turning west towards Mono Lake…”
Hmmm. I’m confused. From what is described above the turn would have been described as South or SouthWest.
Lucky Boy Pass is a phrase used in several locations in the area to describe a gap in the mountains, a road, a historical mine and stage stop, etc. Whiskey Flat is a term used in the area to describe a ranch, a road, an RV park,. From just those terms, I can’t figure out where this sighting took place.
IF he had already transited a gap known as Lucky Boy Pass and again wanted to cross those mountains but had not liked the winds in that pass he had just used, which way would he have headed?
OR if he had decided to again transit Lucky Boy Pass would he have become confused by visual indicators or if he was following a VFR chart, say his proper course was 4 degrees, could he have mistakenly flown 40 degrees?
FG,
The rancher described the flight path as coming from the top of the Lucky Boy Pass area, over the mountains to the Whiskey Flat area (he drew on my sectional a line on about a 110 degree heading), crossing highway 359 just north of restricted area R-4811 (where the Hawthorne Army depot destroys old ammo), then turning southwest and following highway 359 towards mono lake. My route from there would have been to turn north a Mono lake and follow road 270 all the way back to the ranch. That road goes by Bodie ( a restored ghost town) and several other interesting historical sites. Hope this clears up some questions.
I see.. he was flying “IFR”… I Follow Roads. (Couldn’t resist it).
>past Bodie and several other interesting historical sites.
Well, a visitor to the area might indeed want to see some of those historical sites so that seems a sensible assumption to make about his intended route. Perhaps a mistaken selection of which road he was following initially?
He follows the wrong road and it takes a bit of time before he realizes terrain and sectional don’t match up too well and he becomes fixated on the sectional? Doesn’t sound like something such an experienced pilot would do, but its all I can think of.
“…He told me ” a small blue plane, narrower than a Cessna, with a loud exhaust”. He may have read this info somewhere else but I don’t think so…”
Ah, now. Sure if he was on the ground and looking upwards at the plane he would have described it as WHITE with blue trim, since I believe that from the underside it is mainly white. Its body is white and its wings are white and blue.
From above or from the ground it would be described as Blue. And from publicity photos it would be Blue, but anyone observing it from the ground would see mainly white, not blue! Can you locate some photos of this plane at the Flying M and confirm this???
IF the description of the plane is woefully incorrect then your ‘witness’ didn’t really see it. IF it is properly described as Blue then he might indeed have seen it.
Do radar tracks confirm his description of the route?
There are probably better Oregon sources for this story, but here’s a link to report on finding the remains of a Medford hiker missing since 2001
http://www.komotv.com/news/local/10287347.html
Jackson Cty sheriff is quoted as saying they have 4 open cases of this sort.
paulj
I wonder if there are any studies done in such situations as to last known location versus location of remains. I remember one lost child where the authorities kept the search area small but some locals who appeared to be poachers/distillers treked a long distance and found her.
In the Ashland case, 6 miles from where the car was found covers a lot of territory, from near Ashland to the north, into California to the south, and Soda Mt and Mt Ashland to the east and west. The articles don’t elaborate on what creek, or what route he might have taken to get there.
paulj
Beautiful young 19 year old waitress who probably couldn’t afford too many repair bills came a cropper on a twisty road with a sharp dropoff and dense vegetation. The three county investigation sounded as if it would be an SVA type thing, yet apparently no air assets were employed at all. Everyone drove by the scene until a trucker just happened to turn his head at the right moment. Sad. Probably one tenth of the expenses for the search would have put her car in top shape. And prompt use of airplanes would have discovered the Single Vehicle Accident since the likely routes she drove were few and well known. Very sad. (Bittler of Bedford, VA)
Bittler of Bedford, VA… SVA. 9 day delay:
A deputy sheriff was called to a residence the next morning to fill out a report of damage to a lawn ornament and a tree. He observed tire tracks but never looked over the embankment. She was already dead, but still … the family waited nine days for that trucker to happen to turn his head at just the right time and place.
Bittler of Bedford, VA.
Although I lack full details on the deputy who took the property report but didn’t notice the wreck and the corpse, I do want to mention to everyone that such an incident makes me far more forgiving of the official mis-steps in various searches.
‘lawn ornament’? Does this mean there were houses near the crash site? The tracks crossed someone’s property, and they didn’t check where they went?
paulj
Bittler “Lawn Ornament” incident:
I’ve not been able to obtain full and complete information on this but I’ve been exploring various aspects of “avoided costs” in Search and Rescue missions. Consider the costs involved in the Fossett search versus the cost of a more reliable Emergency Locator Beacon. The cost of a fly-by over the one mountainous and winding route in Virginia versus the cost of a family searching for 9 days in three counties.
It seems that the tire track marks were intermittent rather than continuous, which perhaps made the deputy and the homeowner less suspicious. The young lady’s car did go off the road, strike a lawn ornament, leave a mark on a tree and leave some tire tracks heading towards the start of a guard rail. The vehicle as it approached the start of the guard rail did not regain the roadway but instead passed behind the guard rail and traveled down an embankment out of sight of the roadway cars. In response to a homeowner’s desire for a police report regarding property damage, the deputy noted the lawn ornament, tree damage and tire tracks but never explored the area extending away from the home’s lawn toward the roadway’s curve, guardrail and vegetation. Neither the homeowner nor the deputy looked over the embankment which was near but not on the homeowner’s property. Now the younglady was apparently ejected from the vehicle and died instantly, so the nine day delay did not cost her her life, but I find that the deputy’s lack of initiative difficult to comprehend. Officials in SAR missions do not always perform absolutely correctly and sometimes have difficulty locating SVAs into dense terrain. I felt the deputy’s lapse in this incident resulted in a three-county, nine-day waste of official, family and community efforts. I also felt that an air search of the one road most likely to have been utilized would have been a step to be taken very early in the investigation.
Signage Issue/ Cell Phone Issue??
Two Ohio retirees on a shopping expedition likely drove off the interstate one exit south of the outlet mall they intended to reach — and attempted to find non-freeway roads back to the mall. Instead, they followed increasingly narrow paved roads before driving onto an unpaved farm road, into an overgrown field and down a steep ravine into a dried creek bed, where their car became stuck in the rutted surface.
Anyone want to add up the expenses of the search versus the expenses of one of those new Cell Phones for the Elderly that just make and receive calls without any nifty features?
Perhaps we could not give cell phones to all the elderly but a few cell phones to each retirement home or assisted-living facility would certainly have spared a great many police agencies and volunteers a great deal of time and money.
HAMM starts October 21st in Steve Fossett search. High Altitude Mission Mapping program followed by grid computer analysis of the one pixel equals six centimeters images will commence October 21st. Prioritizing of image “hits” will be massive undertaking as threshold of concern for anything blue or with straight edges will be lowered.
Bittler search in Virginia that ended after nine days could have been avoided in its entirety if deputy taking property damage report had not assumed that a vehicle which hit a tree had backed up and driven away rather than having continued on and gone down an embankment. Medical Examiner stated driver died instantly but nine day search would have been avoided. No reports of whether she even owned a cell phone or what cell phone coverage in the area was.
Almost a year later. Local news just said that BLM has locked the gate this year that wasn’t last year, and it also looks like those bold and far more useful signs are still there.
One Year !! Wow, how this event grabbed so many of us a year ago. Nice to see regulars still periodically checking in, even nicer to see John R still doing his best to save lives whenever and whenever he can. Cell phones, as we’ve all seen in various news accounts on various missing persons stories, are playing a more prominent role; that’s one positive result of the Kim tragedy. The gate being locked at a reasonable time and the warning signs staying up are another. In my float down the Rogue this August I scrutinized the area above Big Windy – very steep, rocky, inhospitable terrain with dense underbrush, it is amazing James made it as far as he did.
So do you all remember what you were doing a year agoa?? can you believe how far things have come…..
1334- Your right the Bear Camp / Galice Access road is closed, but don’t let them fool you it is closed because of the slide that they have been fighting for years. The Peavine road is still open, in fact just drove it the other day and just shook my head each time I took a turn and there was no real signage on the actuall road.
Just dropped in to say Hi to all and see what the news was here…. WOW one year ago……..My how time flies.
The Kim tragedy continues to fascinate some. Conspiracy buffs have suggested a few outlandish speculations. We can be pretty sure, however, Bigfoot had nothing to do with it–nor did any pot-growing AK-47 anarchists, since it was colder than the proverbial F. It probably had something to do with a city person trying to cross an Oregon mountain range during a December blizzard on a dirt road that had signs saying don’t cross this in winter.
*Yes – it’s been a year… I’ve been reflecting on why this story affected me so – I have never cared so much about the ongoing search and struggle to find people I didn’t even know…*
*Sometimes life just touches us unexpectedly deeply – life outside our own that is…*
*For me it had to do with going through hypothermia just a month before, and the pictures of a very happy family and beautiful children…*
*Much Love to All of You*
Nice of folks to check back in. No, cannot believe it’s been a year – seems impossible to me. I hope folks are doing well and wish you all very happy holidays!
There’s another bad fall weather related SAR case in Orgeon now – a missing OU professor in the mountains east of Eugene. The search as been called off for now.
http://www.komotv.com/news/local/11219496.html
When looking on Oregonlive for anything further on this story, I found this followup Kim article:
http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/11/kati_kim_talks_about_her_famil.html
paulj
Interview with Kati
http://www.dollymix.tv/2007/09/femina_potens_kati_kim_breaks_1.html
“…He was an experienced hiker, but began his day hike east of Eugene without food, water, jacket or cell phone.”
Yet another incident involving a momentary lapse in vigilance.
I would think if he were experienced and it became foggy he would know to remain where he was and so the search area should not be all that expansive.
Wow. Paulj, thank you for the link. I think my heart still feels as heavy as just a year ago for brave Kati and her precious girls missing James. I’ll be interested to read the part two next week.
Here’s part two:
http://www.dollymix.tv/2007/09/femina_potens_one_thousand_pap.html
I drove over Bear Camp Road this afternoon. Raining hard and 41 degrees. No snow up there yet. Contrary to local news reports road is not closed as the Peavine Detour is open. I feel the Peavine is a dangerous route due to several steep ascents and descents so lets all hope for the best up there this winter.
Thanks, friend too for Part 2. Brave and strong.
John, that’s scary. Hoping for the best, too.
Just want to say to all of you that Sandy and I will be visiting Kati and the children this Thanksgiving and again at Christmas. Without the enormous rescue effort last year, all would be different. The little girls are as sweet as they are beautiful. Kati is finding her strength and direction everyday. Since the baby is no longer breastfeeding, Kati lets us have the girls for overnight adventures when we vist: beach cabin, night in Santa Cruz, etc. One of the highlights of caring for the girls is returning them to Kati and to see them all overjoyed to reunite. They are the best of buddies.
I wish everyone a Happy Holiday season, but my heart really goes out to the all Oregonians who joined together to make a rescue possible. And a special thanks to Joe for all he has done. And of course, John Rachor will always be a hero to Sandy and me. We have so much to be thankful for this Holiday Season.
Great to hear from you Kati’s Dad! Have a wonderful time with your girls and a very fine holiday.
Kati’s Dad, I am glad to hear that you will be with the girls for the holidays because anniversaries tend to be pretty tough. Of course, Kati sounds pretty tough, too. You and your family remain in my thoughts.
Hey, Kati’s Dad, good to hear from you again! Please say hi to Kati and the girls from all of us (if appropriate). Stop by if you are ever in the area and happy holidays to everyone in “Joe Duck Land”.
Re: 1340 Daming Xu search.
Guidebook belonging to missing math professor found by hiker seven miles from Xu’s last reported position near the summit and one mile from a paved road.
Da Ming Xu search efforts have ended despite earlier discovery of the professor’s guidebook. A momentary lapse of attention may have lead to his initially selecting the wrong trail but he seems to have continued on into the unknown rather than retracing his steps.
Sounds familiar.
Well, to all those who were out in the cold and damp treking about looking for anyone who was missing … Happy Thanksgiving.
Resonates indeed, how quickly time flies:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/119578653193240.xml&coll=7
http://www.thedailycourier.com
My heart is with Kati today more than ever, I cannot even imagine!
Drove over Bear Camp last night. Snowing hard and 4X4 needed for top ten miles. Road will probably close itself in several days due to snow. Looks like most side roads that could trap the unweary are gated closed.
“trap the unweary”… a perfect mistake to have made! LOL.
Its the unwary who are at risk, those too weary to be alert at the moment who are at risk and those who simply make a simple series of mistaks who are at risk. And most of those who might be “at risk” are not going to suffer any great consequences.
Its perhaps unfortunate that persons in the area now have to deal with gates shutting them out, even if they know what they are doing and are well equipped for survival. However, I do understand that no one wants to have a needless sequel.
I used to be a good spealer! I knowed it was wrong but was to lazy to correct it.
Drove back over Bear Camp to Agness yesterday but it snowed hard all night up there. Had to drive back to Medford by the coast route (4.5 hours instead of 2.3). BCR is probably closed for the winter.
Well, I’m sure you drove carefully and had provisions in your vehicle for any problems you were likely to encounter. If however you had broken down and found your survival pack had been forgotten, you would most likely have survived, particularly since you are familiar with the area and the traffic patterns. Its unfortunate that a series of events transpired that resulted in James Kim dying. Continued attention to the hazards involved and the procedures to be followed for searches is a fitting tribute to him and to the efforts of all those who slogged through the cold and damp to find him.
Here is a recent article from the Eugene paper. The text is pasted below, since the link is only active for one week. I believe that JoCo is mistakenly referred to as Malheur County, which is in the distant southeast corner of Oregon.
————————
Search Crews Face a Loss
By Andrea Damewood The Register-Guard
Published: Dec 1, 2007 09:09:18AM
When University of Oregon professor Daming Xu vanished into the Cascade Mountains on a day hike on Nov. 4, search and rescue workers couldn’t help but think of the man who perished in Oregon’s icy wilderness less than one year before: James Kim.
As they found the 63-year-old Xu’s car at the Olallie Mountain trailhead near Cougar Lake, the haunting image of the Kim family car stranded in snow on a remote road in the southern Coast Range flickered through their minds.
As they scanned the drainages along French Pete Creek — where they spotted half of a discarded trail guide, the only physical evidence of the Eugene resident found to date — they reflected on the discovery last Dec. 6, when 35-year-old Kim was found dead of hypothermia in Big Windy Creek four days after he left the car to find help for his wife, Kati, and his two daughters, Penelope, 4, and Sabine, 7 months.
Kati Kim and the girls survived, found Dec. 4 by a volunteer helicopter pilot who spotted the woman waving a pink umbrella next to their Saab on Bear Camp Road off Highway 42.
“There was not a lot said about the Kim search during this one, but it was on my mind,” Lane County Search and Rescue Coordinator John Miller said.
Xu has yet to be found. Lane County crews are operating a recovery mission as weather allows.
Both hunts involved the combination of art and science that is wilderness search and rescue, Miller said. But they proceeded very differently.
The Kim search was hampered by a breakdown of command and communication between Malheur County sheriff’s officials and other agencies, a review by officials determined. But Miller said the search for Xu — the largest in Lane County in at least a decade — was speedy and well-coordinated, benefiting from lessons learned from mistakes made one year before.
In the wake of the Kim tragedy, Gov. Ted Kulongoski in January appointed an 18-member Search and Rescue Task Force, which recommended sweeping changes to training, funding, search coordination and other aspects of rescue work. Some of those changes have been carried out. Some have not.
The review “has been a catalyst for … moving on the important issues,” said Klamath County Sheriff Tim Evinger, a task force member and chairman of the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association Search and Rescue Advisory Council.
“Search and rescue is way better off in Oregon than it was a year ago.”
But a new threat — the possible loss of annual federal money is looming.
Lane County Sheriff Russ Burger warned that the expected loss of federal timber payments funding to rural counties, including Lane, starting in July will cripple that newfound momentum. At least half the county’s search and rescue budget of $287,000 would instantly disappear, he said.
“The fact that (search and rescue) has become such an important part of what we do is a good thing,” Burger said.
“It sort of brings focus on the need to adequately fund and provide those services, particularly in a county such as ours where there’s so much wilderness.”
Hoping to preserve gains
Search and rescue in the state used to be “largely overlooked,” Evinger said.
But the federal Secure Rural Schools and Communities Self-Determination Act of 2000 — which gives money to counties to compensate for the loss of taxes from timber sales — earmarked funds to compensate counties for searches they held on federal land, Evinger said.
During the past seven years, counties have been able to beef up their operations by training staff and buying vehicles.
That money will go away July 30 unless Congress renews it.
“The worry is sustainability,” Evinger said. “If at some point we can’t maintain the equipment, can’t replace the equipment as it wears out, then we’ll be right back where we were before.”
Burger said county-sponsored search and rescue would continue “one way or the other,” but might have to be scaled back to using patrol members to coordinate efforts. That means Miller, whom he credits with creating one of the best search and rescue programs in the state, would be out of a job.
Local and state officials are fighting to keep the federal money flowing.
“The loss of federal dollars is a huge area of concern for the governor,” said Joseph O’Leary, chairman of the Governor’s Search and Rescue Task Force.
Burger said he will travel to Washington, D.C., to lobby for continued search and rescue funding for counties.
“More than half of this county is wilderness and federal land,” he said. “The federal government … has some responsibility to help defray the cost of finding people who do get lost in the wild.”
Miller, 57, has been in the search and rescue field for more than 20 years, and county coordinator since 1995. He earns $58,836 a year, and works unpaid overtime to preach wilderness safety and hold training for volunteers — both initiatives called for by the governor’s task force.
The task force didn’t designate any money for educating the public.
“If I could teach everybody to be safe … that would be the perfect world for me,” Miller said.
Just under $2,000 was set aside this year in the county budget to keep the county’s staff and 180 volunteers trained at national standards — or $11 per volunteer, Miller said.
“That doesn’t go far, does it?” he said. “(Our program) would fall on its face without these volunteers, and personally, I’d like to see the volunteers supported.”
The state task force also called for increased training, insurance support and funding for state-level emergency coordination.
So far, none of that has happened.
At the state level, one of the biggest holes is a “dangerously out-of-date” communications infrastructure, O’Leary said.
One estimate said it would cost the state $665 million to create a public safety communications network, he said, but that did not take into account the existing infrastructure, which could significantly lower cost.
“Communication is absolutely critical in all emergency events,” he said.
Reliable cell phone service and satellite e-mail wasn’t set up on Olallie Mountain until the final two or three days of the Xu search, Miller said.
More coordination now
Communication gaps aside, when Daming Xu went missing last month, his rescuers still had a much better shot than did the crews that searched for Kim, Miller said.
Task force members said a law enacted earlier this year, requiring that a sheriff’s department take charge of a rescue operation, was the largest leap forward.
During the Kim search, control bounced from the state police to several Malheur County officials, costing the effort valuable time, said Miller, who participated in a task force subcommittee. The new law “drives somebody to take responsibility for the mission,” he said.
Furthermore, sheriff’s search and rescue crews now work more closely with police, who investigate clues and motivation, and interview family and witnesses.
“In the Kim search, we learned that (was necessary) a little bit more: There were phone bills and receipts that needed to be followed up on,” Miller said, adding that Eugene police were on the scene during the Xu search. “The investigation has to go on while the search goes on.”
Also new to the crews’ tool kit was a higher level of collaboration among neighboring counties.
The outpouring of offers of help via a newly created e-mail network for search and rescue coordination was “overwhelming,” Miller said.
Before, Miller would have to call neighboring counties and ask for help — eating up search time when it is most critical.
Also, in the past year, coordinators have created five regions in the state in hopes of having those agencies train together, allowing developments to flow smoothly when “the big one” hits, he said.
Task force members also pushed for training in using cell phone “pings” to triangulate a person’s location, something critical — but much delayed — in tracing the Kims.
Xu left for his five-mile day hike without a cell phone. But Miller said that training helped to save the life of a 38-year-old woman who crashed her car off Highway 101 on the Oregon Coast in April.
Not finding Xu has been “extremely frustrating,” Miller said.
But using lessons from the Kim search and the task force made the mission a far better orchestrated one.
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.cms.support.viewStory.cls?cid=29768&sid=1&fid=1
I contacted Andrea Damewood today and left a message to inform her of the correction about Malheur County. I followed the Kim Search and this blog last year, but I didn’t comment much as it seemed you all had that avenue covered. While trying to find new information on the Xu search I came across this article online and noticed the Malheur mistake. I new it was wrong because I grew up in Ontario so I called and told her she was off by about 340 miles. It would have been a search in the sagebrush.
I sure wish this Xu search would have turned out better. Hope all are well this holiday season.
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9829362-1.html
saw this today and thought I would stop by and share and pay my respects to everyone here.
hope all is well with everyone – can’t hardly believe a year has passed already.
happy holidays!
Thank you Glenn. What a very sad day this is.
The Kims have been on my mind a lot this week. I’d planned a trip last weekend, then snow fell in the mountains between us and our plans, so I canceled it because the irony was just too great. Turns out the storms that followed were pretty bad, and we would have had a very hard time getting back home. I promised myself I’d take something good from this sad tragedy, and I did. My heart is still with Kati and the girls. This has to be an even tougher than it probably already is week of remembering. I hope they know that lots of us remember, too. Still just so sad.
Yes, it can be sad to consider the loss and the mistakes that were made but it can also be inspiring to recall the efforts that were made during and after the search. Things go awry and we deal with the consequences. Its sometimes depressing but it would be more depressing if we failed to learn. People in the area know of the dangers, there is signage that will warn tourists. We all wish the outcome of the search and rescue efforts had been different but its probably best to think of James Kim as the type of guy who would have been out there slogging through the muck if it had been someone else who had been missing. He was not a fool. There are no indications that he was selfish. He was simply unlucky.
UPDATE: Found and the family is fine after 3? nights lost!
Another family is missing as of Sunday in the Northern California Wilderness:
http://dangerdata.com/2007/12/19/family-missing-in-california-wilderness/
The irony of this, almost exactly a year after James!…but no car to protect them from the elements, and not equipped nor dressed for what is surely horrific weather. Let’s hope they find them soon.
The family in N. California has been foound alive and well according to latest reports on Yahoo news
I understand they huddled together in a culvert to stay warm. Very resourceful!
Happy Holidays to all!!
Merry Christmas folks – a year later and comments are still coming in!
Re: Medford BLM Management Review – Kim Family Incident
http://www.blm.gov/or/news/files/Medford%20Management%20Review%202-14-07.pdf (16 pages)
RE: Page 14 of the review: Conclusion – No changes, of any kind, are warranted ?!? What ??? Bureaucratic ineptitude at its finest is on display with that comment !!!
Stronger worded signs; better map disclosures; these are but a few of the ideas we’ve discussed that could make a meaningful difference in the future. I’m sure John’s excellent sign has caused more than a few to rethink that route this winter.
The sole purpose of the document was to exonorate the BLM. Its been a long time. Anyone who opens the file will see this document first and will form an opinion based on it that will color their views of any earlier documents that they continue to read. Its known as a bureaucratic whitewash. You start out with your position being the first document in the file. That way, you get your views in first and everyone else has to fight an uphill battle. First impressions count. Bureaucrats know that.
Ofcourse no changes are warranted. They spend all their time polishing their halos. Nothing is needed. That is the purpose of the “management review”.
Hello, I’ve been thinking of you all and of course the Kim family for weeks (been down with bronchitis for most of the month). I can’t believe it’s been over a year. It was an amazing group here throughout those days during and after the search, and I don’t think anyone who stayed for the duration here left without experiencing everything from profound joy to absolute grief.
Here’s to a safe and happy New Year for all, and special blessings for the Kims.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TurningPoints/story?id=4076005&page=1
Long time no see–Don’t know if anyone is posting but I thought you might be interested in this interview of Kati Kim:
http://www.dollymix.tv/2007/09/femina_potens_kati_kim_breaks_1.html
Just checkin’ in,
All is well, lots of snow on Bear Camp (maybe 6′ to 8′), BLM is plowing out to the County Line turnoff with a cat to access a Biscuit Fire area they want to plant.They have repaired the slide already at the 4.6 mile area so the Peavine detour will not be required this summer (for you Bear Camp travelers). Road will probably not be open all the way over the top until late May. I’ve been dropping meds to a man spending the winter in “the canyon” on Bald Ridge across the Rogue from the Kim’s location. Hauled a load of food in the helo to some miners stranded by snow in the Briggs Valley. Got a call from Curry County Sheriff last week and hauled two young men out of the Kalmiopsis Wilderness (one had dislocated knee). Hope everyone had a good Winter and keep in touch.
Well, thanks for the updates. I had no idea the snow could ever be so deep or persist so long. (Shows how I might have interpreted ‘winter’ on a roadsign). I wonder why the Rx simply wasn’t written for a larger supply. Wouldn’t this be cheaper than helicopter fuel?
Wow John!
Amazing how the rescue and support never ends up there. They are really lucky to have people like yourself that are always willing to help out.
Hope everyone is well!
Fools Gold,
Unfortunately the gentleman didn’t plan on spending the winter in there. He went back in on December 24th to gather up all of his dogs, cats, chickens, etc. and got caught by a big snow storm. He has plenty of food but neglected to take enough heart meds. I have offered to bring him out but we couldn’t figure out how to haul the chickens, dogs, and cats all in the helo at the same time. He seems happy so I am too.
I’m sure you would be far happier dropping meds to him than having dogs, cats and chickens go romping around the cyclic. You’ve got to beat the air into submission, not deal with a chicken who wants to dial in a new waypoint.
I wonder if isolated structures such as camps that might be closed for the winter would be willing to contribute to an anti-vandalism patrol or something. They might be willing to contribute to your fuel costs if you check on their isolated structures.
Rural Area Cell phone issue REVISITED.
Recent search for two young female seasonal workers at hotel in Denali featured the common themes: “short” hike that turned into days; inadequate equipment, poor map reading skills, poor survival judgment.
It was thought they had no cell phone with them but they did and battery was very weak by the time they found a signal and one hiker called her mother who happened to be at the search center awaiting a briefing.
Perhaps we should revisit the idea mentioned upthread a few times of a small downward-looking cell phone antenna on search planes. And perhaps we should revisit the economics of signal beacons and the economics of the LACK of signal beacons. This search ended happily. Many don’t.
Hi FG,
I think it is really great that people still check this forum. I really think enabling a text message broadcast during search is also useful. Text messages will arrive in situations where a voice call is not possible.
It might even be feasible to provide some status to where the search is happening so that someone that is lost happens to get the text message they might be able to make a better decision on which direction to travel.
The Denali hikers are lucky it is this time of year – had it been November, December their situation would have been far dire.
Yes, the hikers were experienced in the outdoors but by no means were they equipped or educated sufficiently for Alaska’s rigors much less an Alaskan Winter so they are indeed fortunate.
The handshaking principles seem to be different for text and for voice but some sort of signal strength is required and an airborne or portable unit would surely have helped.
I like that idea of a “transmit in the blind”: Lost Hikers in Denali, if able climb to high ridge. It was fortunate that they kept their heads and rationed their food but stayed put when it rained. It was close though. They were out of food when rescued and I’m sure their physical strength as well as the phone’s battery were each in need of a re-charge.
I wonder about that downward looking antenna array and a text message. It sure would save alot of time and money to atleast try the technology.
Despite their outdoors experience the two women were outside the search area and had been heading North not East as they said in the cell phone conversation which misidentified their location and route of travel. The Text Message that conserved battery strength gave searchers an idea of their location. It appears they had crossed a trail without realizing it. Beacons would be useful in such situations, I think.
In the Kim Search the search area was humungous and was whittled down with great effort and, at times, great difficulty and lack of precision. In this recent search in Denali, the hikers had already left the search area, having hiked eleven miles the first day of their being lost.
Anchorage editorial reminds the Alaskan Tourism Industry would not exist if tourists had to suffer catastrophic financial loss for reimbursing search agencies.
The ‘outside the search area by Day One’ worries me as does the inability to identify where they are or what direction they have been travelling in. What is of greater concern is that these were experienced hikers albeit experienced in Non-Alaskalike situations. So perhaps its not so much ‘having a cell phone’ but having a beacon that we should be looking at. These two hikers were inadvertantly giving the wrong information once they obtained a cell signal. It was the cell technology that radically shifted the search area, not the cell-phone conversation.
Search for missing pilot, Ron Boychuk, in British Columbia has relied on image analyis of satellite data by volunteers. Recently an unmanned crop surveillance drone was released over the heavily forrested search area but so far has not lead to any potential hits.
FG,
I have always wondered why airplanes are not all required to have beacons and why the beacons don’t work a lot better. It would seem the ability to find a down plane would be made a lot easier with good solid beacon technology not to mention the manpower and cost savings during SAR.
Happy 4th!
>manpower and cost savings during SAR.
Indeed!! Way upthread somewhere I posted about that “ten dollar wok” rural satellite dish and how whether paid or volunteers the local SAR people would prefer to hold bake-sales for used woks than go traipsing through unpleasant or dangerous terrain in search of missing people. In the Denali incident, a beacon would have been reliable whereas voice communication might have been misleading since the two hikers were so mistaken as to their location and direction of travel. However an airborne or portable cell tower would have atleast helped. Perhaps a tethered blimp on a day of good visibility would provide cell coverage in the area but not be a hazard to search planes?
Add up all the costs of even just the out-of-area search teams that were flown in just before that cell phone call took place and you have enough avoided-cost to fund beacons for every tourist in the Park for a year.
Airliners actually have lower standards than utility or recreational planes since its assumed that airliners will be promptly known to be overdue. Whether we are dealing with pilots, passengers or hikers, beacons seem the cheapest solution. The trouble is that when ELTs were first introduced the number of false alarms was astounding and with no way to identify just whose ELT was transmitting false alarms became a real nuisance. With beacons of known ownership the cost of a false alarm is diminished, so tolerance of false alarms should be fairly high.
Batteries and renting of beacons to tourists is far less of a nuisance that even one out-of-area search team being flown in. Are there some problems with signals being bounced off cliffs or devices not being properly activated? Sure, but perfection is not the goal.
Subject: Article – New signs for Bear Camp Road after Kim tragedy
http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2008/07/new_signs_for_bear_camp_road_a.html
New signs for Bear Camp Road after Kim tragedy
Posted by The Associated Press July 21, 2008 05:42AM
Categories: Breaking News
New signs on Bear Camp Road, nearly two years after the Kim
tragedy.GRANTS PASS — New signs and markers are planned for Bear Camp Road to prevent the kind of tragedy that ended with the death of James Kim nearly two years ago.
Seeking a shortcut to the Oregon coast in November 2006, Kim and his young family were trying to get to Gold Beach on the winding, narrow road through the remote wilderness when they made a wrong turn that stranded them.
After a massive search that lasted 10 days, the 35-year-old Kim was found dead of exposure after trying to hike out for help. But his wife, Kati, and their two children were found alive in the family’s station wagon.
The San Francisco couple were unaware the road is typically closed in the winter by snow and is not a main highway.
Now the U.S. Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service plan to add six new large signs, two informational kiosks and a series of mile markers along the route from the Galice access to Gold Beach.
The project should be complete in August.
“Any improvements to that area is a step in the right direction, no question about it,” said Josephine County Emergency Manager Sara Rubrecht, who worked on the search for the Kims. “It’s a fairly confusing area for anyone.
“You can’t guarantee the Kims would have seen the new signs considering the snow and darkness they faced, but I think any improvements are a good step.”
The signs and markers will clearly designate the correct route from Galice Road to Gold Beach and inform drivers that the road is not maintained from November to May, when there might be snow drifts.
“That gives people who are not as familiar with these road systems information to know that the roads may be blocked by snow,” said BLM spokeswoman Patty Burel.
Two information kiosks also will be added to the road. The first kiosk will be located at the beginning of BLM Road 34-8-36 near the junction of Galice Road. The second will be located at the road’s spur on Bear Camp Road, where the Kims took the wrong turn.
“Any time you’re going to be traveling across public lands, it’s a lot different than, say, Interstate 5,” Burel said.
“You’re not going to come across a McDonald’s or a gas station where you can ask directions. It’s more of a risk.”
Thanks for the update. Nice to see some progress on this. Kudos to all those that kept the pressure and forward progress ongoing.
At the current time the directional signs on “Bear Camp Road” are very confusing in my opinion. At the lower junction with the Peavine Road (near Galice) the signs currently direct drivers to the Peavine detour which is longer and much steeper. At the upper junction the signs also direct eastbound traffic to the Peavine detour. The shorter route is open to the public but only the local people know that. I travel this route every week or so and usually find a confused tourist or two at this upper junction with their maps spread out on the hood of there car trying to decide which route to take. I feel the BLM is trying to discourage use of the shorter easier route to limit liability in the event it slides in again at the wrong time. I did notice that new “coastal route” signs are installed along the shorter route that they are trying to discourage (very confusing). I notice that the new “coastal route” signs say the same thing on both sides so if you got confused up there both eastbound and westbound traffic may think they are headed to the coast. There are several folding “road closed ahead” signs in this section that may be up or down depending on the whim of the local vandals/comedians. This is also very confusing and I feel they should have locking devices on them. In reading the press releases I see know info where any of these issues are bing addressed.
Some things never change John!
Guess they will need a bus load of nuns to go missing before they actually fix the problems…
Like Joe said it looks like I will be helping lost people during deer season.
Well, that eastbound traffic will eventually reach a coast so the darned administrators who put up those signs think of themselves as having done well.
Its unfortunate that vandalism must be considered but a sign that can be turned around is indeed vulnerable and basic road safety and common sense should be considered.
The whole point of the new signage should be to ease confusion on the part of the person who is unfamiliar with the area. Most of the severe problems will indeed take place in ‘winter’ and if a motorist remains confused something is wrong. It should not be ‘encouraging one route’ as much as ‘avoiding dangerous routes’. I have an idea that the people who made the final decisions on those signs made them from desks that are far away.
John it is alarming to me that the signage is confusing, especially if they replace your signs which in my opinion were excellent.
Although signage was not a critical problem for the Kims I’d like to see them get it right before another family loses their way. We know now that the Kims knew they were off the main road and were just hoping the right turn at the infamous fork would take them to the coast.
JoCoSar I hope you check in on this as well.
The Kim Story, or “Don’t Attempt a Short Cut on a Logging Road Through an Oregon Mountain Range during a Blizzard, especially when some yokels Warned you not to.”
Serio, there appears to be some strange “HBO family tragedy of the week meme” in effect here, where everyone (SAR, cops, USFS, BLM, the Fed Govt, etc) except James Kim is held to blame.
I don’t believe that Search and Rescue efforts are generally restricted to experienced outdoorsmen intimately familiar with the area in which they become lost and well-equipped with survival gear. Nor are lines temptingly displayed on roadmaps somehow known to be part of a logging road maze with deceptive viewpoints.
Yes, he was responsible for his actions and the foreseeable consequences of them. He actually did quite well for most of the ordeal and made far better progress than most similar situated people might have made. That doesn’t mean that we need to ignore the salutory effect that a few well worded and well placed signs can have.
People do make mistakes, are subjected to ill-timed distractions when driving with kids, transition from ‘Kansas’ without realizing it and make less than perfect decisions about intersections while paying attention to demanding driving conditions.
Usually our response is more than just to say “wait until the spring thaw and if found still alive give him a lecture on blame”.
While it’s always good to see there is some action being considered or planned, I also think that almost 2 years to put up some official signs is a bit ridiculous, especially if they are going to be confusing. John, are your signs still up? I know there was some discussion at some point about them having to come down.
Yes, my sign is still up. The BLM made me remove it from public land but is now up on private land at the start of Bear Camp Road in Galice.
Kudos to John for keeping his sign in place!
I think the action with signs in great HOWEVER people still come and ask “Which way is it to the coast” yet again with a state highway map in hand. Signs are good but I believe that the mappers need to be addressed too. All those personal GPS systems are still directing you over Bear Camp, online mapping programs still say its passable year round. Many people these days don’t even have a map in their car all they have in hand are the maps printed from their computer!
RogueRiverRat – Wow, even with all the news and changes…from what you and John have said we are likely to see a repeat of the trouble. Maybe this is a case where information cannot defeat human nature, which is to take some risk in spite of ourselves.
SAR missions are often launched based on ‘human nature rather than information’ mishaps. Repeated medevacs from Dead Man’s Curve, repeated medevacs of snowmobilers provoking avalances, repeated outdoor adventurers being ill equipped for their journey or endeavors.
The recent search for two female hikers in Denali involved hikers with experience, equiment, a good measure of common sense, maps and a cell phone. Yet mistakes and misinformation abounded.
Life is not meant to be lived in a cacoon and no signage will ever make a good cocoon. However persistent inquiries about routes to the coast and persistent inadequacy of GPS databanks shows a decent sign is needed, even if human nature will still cause some SAR missions to be launched.
JoeDuck –
Yes, I still check in regularly…
I have to agree with John. I drove all the way over on Thursday and noticed quite a few new signs. The only ones that I did like were the ones placed at the intersection of FS23 and BLM 34-8-36. These were a great improvement over the last ones there. I did notice (for John and Bob), that the gate on 34-8-36 has been opened. I thought BLM said that they weren’t going to do that at all this year? John, your sign will always be my favorite!
It was interesting to drive that road with no snow! I don’t think that I ever noticed how bad of shape the pavement was on the Curry Co side! It sure is amazingly beautiful up there!
Just a bit of information, in case you didn’t all know…we didn’t have any calls of stuck motorists this past winter due to the fact that there was TOO MUCH SNOW! It was eerily quiet up there. I believe it was May when they plowed the road and there were still up to 14 ft snow drifts! That’s one way to keep them out!
Thx JoCoSAR – that is really interesting about having too much snow to be a threat.
Howdy JoCoSar,
I talked to Jim Roper several weeks ago up on Bear Camp (he was installing the new signs) and he said they are going to leave the 34-8-36 road gate open until the fall for hunters,berry pickers, etc. I believe there is a new sign up there that gives the date they will lock it to prevent anyone from getting locked in which is a great idea.
Interesting and inexpensive technology to use satellite to message for help.
http://www.findmespot.com/explorespot/spotmessenger.aspx
Should be #1 item on any hikers list. Only costs $169.99…cheap for solid piece of mind.
Looks as if it might be an attractive option. Has sort of a “flight following” mode wherein it can send an “I’m here and okay” non-emergency message. I wonder about a “deadman’s switch” to activate it or not.
As far as hikers go, I think the real market will not just be with the individual hikers but will be the hotels, resorts, hiking clubs and perhaps even the SAR responders.
Someone stole my sign this weekend.
I figure it’s on a dorm wall somewhere!
Dorm wall or bureaucrat’s bonfire!
Ugh on the stolen sign. I’m also hoping for bucket loads of snow again this year if that helped last year.
Buckets of snow?
Well, I don’t think there are any ski resorts in the area so I wouldn’t wish tons of snow on anyone. I do know what you mean though about decreasing the risk but it takes quite a good many separate events to cause any trouble.
There may be a few cars that wander into danger but successfully extricate themselves by turning around or just happen to have a full tank of gas in their vehicle or some warmer clothes and blankets. We don’t read about the near misses. We don’t even read about those who get stuck for awhile. We only read about the extreme cases who get stuck in a storm with low fuel, inadequate maps, no water, no sleeping bags and inadequate signalling skills. And even in the Kim Search, he almost made it! I don’t know if expenditures for gates would save more than one life in a decade. And tons of snow would immobilize alot of people who really need to get out and get things accomplished.
WOW we are coming up to two years since…incredible.
Re 1409 Glenn – I have field tested SPOT in numerous areas in Southern Oregon. My first location was Bear Camp Road. The device did not work in several locations up there due to no satellite reception. I also attempted to test the 911 feature, I think that SPOT still has quite a bit of work to do on this feature!
We are working with the company at a state level and trying to improve our communications with other companies like this one.
Things are still moving ahead here in Oregon at the state level and the new Governor’s SAR Policy Commission has had their first meeting. Next meeting is scheduled for Dec. 3. Many good things brought up in first meeting, I will keep you updated!
I just got my first media call yesterday from KOIN News out of Portland. They wanted to talk about the 2nd anniversary. I guess I wasn’t prepared for that quite yet!
I am driving to Salem tomorrow to assist with a presentation by OSP to detectives throughout the state on media relations. The presentation is based on the Kim Search. I am excited that others can learn from this mission for years to come!
I hope that everyone is doing well! Glad to see our “core group” still here! Thanks Joe!!!
Talk soon, Sara
Interesting thing I found on the internet while sitting home sick today…
“Kati Kim here. Owner of the store formerly known as “Church Street Apothecary.” Yes, the all-powerful state agency known at the “California Pharmacy Board” was unhappy with the name of my business. Accordingly to a law from 1905, only licensed pharmacies may use the word “apothecary” in their name. You guys won. Great job on putting us out of business! No, I could not afford to re-brand the store, website, and re-do my trademark and llc licenses. Despite the fanciness of lots of our products, we only had a $2 mark-up on organic diapers and took a similar loss on other basic organic and homeopathic items.
So, here’s the deal: I refuse to go down without a fight, and, with the opening of the Day Street Rec Center, I just know all my Noe Valley parent friends are gonna _need_ flowers and cards and other gift items within walking distance. Bonus for the moms – clothes. Yup, I’m installing a clothing rack for women’s and children’s clothing. Think doe, only without the forest theme.
Shameless promotional plug, I know. But, mama’s got mouths to feed. And I’m pretty sure my employees are not stoked on finding employment elsewhere.
So – Long live 1767 Church Street.
And poo on you, Pharmacy Board!!!!”
1417 – Bureaucratic dunderheads strike again ! Nothing like putting a small business out of business to help with the recession.
1416 – 2 years, amazing, seems like yesterday. It is consoling to see how often cell phones have played a role in SAR since the Kim tragedy, though not always successfully. In the years since I have paid much more attention to SAR stories. Most times they end well, but often the person(s) are never found – alive or dead – which I feel speaks to just how hard it is to find the proverbial needle in a haystack. Despite all our fancy high tech toys and ever encroaching civilization, the wilderness is still vast and if you get lost in it, can be very unforgiving.
Local news stations in the area tonight are mentioning the Kim’s as well as new signs and something about new kiosks. I heard a bit on NBC 8 on the evening news and then on the radio that there will be more on the 11PM news on CBS 6. Can it really be two years already? Still so very sad.
Reading back and seeing Sara (hi Sara!), looks like the CBS 6 (KOIN) news tonight is the one for which she was contacted. I’ll be watching.
Hey Maggie…two years yep…I think of James still on a regular basis. Amazing the impact this one man had on so many.
I had to step out tonight without a jacket and it was cold enough here to remind me of this story…
Nicely done news segment. Privacy laws have apparently been loosened as well, which was a concern with the Hotel Lucia in Portland not being willing to release info. It was also nice to see John and Sara, and it does sound like some changes have been make specifically to Bear Camp Road but also a wider regional response as well. Hopefully lives will be saved as a result. Still so sad.
Here you go!!!
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=9163@koin.dayport.com&navCatId=156
http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=9163@koin.dayport.com&navCatId=156
Howdy (or more fitting ALOHA!!!) folks!! Good to see everyone still poping in around here!!!
Can you believe it has been two years already!! WOW!!!
If there is anything personally I have learned (and I have brought alot back from all this) from the Kim Search is to…….
Life is short.
Break the rules.
Forgive quickly.
Love truly.
Laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that
made you smile.
We can only live and learn!!! Hope all is well with everyone and glad to see the board still moveing!!!!
Wow, that dredged up a lot of old feelings re-watching the story, still so incredibly sad. Much good has come of the tragedy though, good that may save other lives in the future. Hi to all the regulars, amazing so many still check in here so many years later.
This was sent to me today by another SAR Coordinator. My only comment is “wow.”
http://www.oregonquarterly.com/winter2008/feature1.php
“…James wanted to turn around, but she thought the road too narrow, the edge dangerously steep….”
Well, she was probably right. Had they attempted some sort of U-turn on a narrow, snowy and probably icy road with sharp drop offs, just what criticism do you think would later be heaped on them for having chosen to risk utter ruin by cascading down a steep slope to oblivion where no passerby would ever spot their mangled vehicle?
“…She also divulged that they passed 34-8-36, sticking with Bear Camp, the correct coastal road. As they gained elevation, the snow deepened. So James opened his door, stuck his head out, and backed down the road. …”
Okay. This turned out to have been wrong but at the time getting out of their predicament seemed desirable and the manner chosen surely seemed reasonable.
“…Then, rather than turn around on the wide paved Y, the Kims drove twenty-one miles further away from the known world, disregarding additional opportunities to turn back. …
Yes, this seems strange. Stress? Cold? Fear reaction from the decision making about turns on icy roads? Who knows? Just as cell phones are not always available so too is there often a lack of rational thought and decision making in remote rugged areas.
“…From this multitude of incautious choices…”
Oh wow. Incautious choices! How about the two very experienced hikers who got onto the wrong trail in Denali? Those two women were not in a particularly alien environment yet they made incautious choices and seemed unaware of their actual direction of travel.
We often allocate a good deal of SAR/Medical Evacuation resources on motorcyclists who challenge obvious hazards and repeatedly view others getting rescued or snowmobilers who use their machines to climb slopes and then turn around just as the going gets too hazardous. When the snowmobiler miscalculates, the avalanche rescue people don’t hang back and talk about incautious choices.
The Kims were on a trip, not an expedition. Through various errors or map-misreading they found themselves in a rugged, remote area devoid of signage and road markings. The sun is falling, the snow is falling, the gas guage is falling, their spirits are falling and perhaps not all of their decision-making was at its peak. Even when the vehicle was out of gas they still felt that ‘passing traffic, even a passing snowplow’ would be along in the morning. Well, perhaps they still didn’t quite realize that they were no longer in Kansas, but often people don’t quite realize just how bad things are. Pushing onward in the hopes that things will get better? Heck, what on earth does the entire casino industry WANT people to believe in? Turning around and driving out of the area? Thats like recalling a politician from office, it may be the best thing to do but the politician sure doesn’t want people to know that.
Thanks for sharing the article. It annoys me on a lot of the same levels as FoolsGold already mentioned and mostly because it drips with an air of know-it-all-ish-ness under fancy wording and completely lacks any compassion whatsoever. The Kim’s made mistakes. Pretty much most of us who’ve been checking back here for the past two years get that. Still, in my mind it comes back again to the idea that so many times similarly scary situations just do all work out in the end and becomes a story about a near miss instead of actually ending in such tragedy. Nobody expects something like this to happen to them. They just don’t.
“…What might have prevented James Kim’s death and his family’s life-shattering ordeal? Perhaps approaching the unknown with a bit of caution; evaluating the physical world for signs of danger; and realizing that help is not always a phone call away, that sometimes, despite the reassuring trappings of civilization we drag along on our journeys, each of us is all alone in the world…”
Even doing all of that cannot save every person every time. I bet many of us are a little more cautious as a result of this tragedy, and it’s safer that way, but it’s not foolproof and doesn’t mean tragedy of a similar or different kind cannot happen. Sometimes things work out; sometimes they just don’t. I’m about to embark on a drive next week through Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas and then Oklahoma (or the Southern route instead if the weather looks too terrible on that route) in a sports car that hates snow and am absolutely petrified about it, but it cannot be avoided in this case, and I go with safety items in the trunk and in touch with at least one or two people who are aware of our route (more are welcome, though, and we might even try to track our journey on my blog if we can) in the hopes that all of this will keep us safe. Because of the Kim’s tragic ordeal, I’m going more prepared than I otherwise might have considered (though I still hope it’s prepared enough), and the Kim’s are constantly on my mind, especially now, this time of year, and my heart still aches for them while I hope that we make it safely.
If not, I hope the woman who wrote this essay that won a writing contest but wouldn’t have won a compassion contest never attempts to tell my story.
One sailor’s comments about his well-prepared day sailer and surviving a three-day major Pacific storm off the coast of Oregon:
“Another aspect to our survival was we did not have a ham radio, a life raft, or an EPIRB. During the storm we’d believed in our ability to survive because we had to.
Attitude.”
Does this impact any of the roads the Kim’s were on? Wen they decommission does that mean they just stop maintaining them, etc?
BLM to decommission roads, trails along Rogue ( Oregon )
GRANTS PASS — The U.S. Bureau of Land Management plans to decommission up to 20 miles of roads and about the same amount of trails this year along the Hellgate recreation section of the Rogue River.
The work would be done as part of the Rogue River Corridor Restoration Project that begins at White Horse Park where the Applegate River pours into the Rogue. The project reaches downstream some 20 river miles to the mouth of Grave Creek in the Rogue National Wild and Scenic River Corridor.
“The main intent is decommissioning roads and trails within the river corridor, all within about a quarter mile of the river,” said Tony Kerwin, an environmental planner with the BLM’S Medford District.
The BLM will hold a public presentation on the project beginning at 6:15 p.m. March 17 at North Valley High School, 9741 Monument Drive, Merlin. Agency employees will be available to answer questions until about 8 p.m.
The Rogue was one of the original eight rivers included in the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act of 1968. The designation includes 84 miles of the river, beginning seven miles west of Grants Pass and continuing downstream to the mouth of Lobster Creek about 11 miles east of Gold Beach.
http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090226/NEWS/902260334
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_042709_news_bear_camp_road.1189acfd3.html
Woman rescued on road where James Kim died
03:17 PM PDT on Monday, April 27, 2009
By Associated Press
GALICE, Ore. — A woman and her dog were rescued after her car got stuck in the snow on the narrow mountain road near where a California man died in 2006.
Patricia Burel, BLM Medford
The Grants Pass Daily Courier reported that Sophia Latham was apparently trying to drive to the coast from Galice when her car got stuck Friday night on Bear Camp Road.
Latham and her border collie stayed overnight in her car before she hiked about seven miles to get within cell phone range.
Josephine County Sheriff Gil Gilbertson freed her car. He says only heavy-duty, four-wheel drive vehicles should attempt the road this time of year.
James Kim of San Francisco died in December 2006 trying to find help for his family when they got stuck just off the same road.
Even in Oklahoma Maggie is staying on top of things – nice to know. After all that happened with that story you would think folks would think twice before attempting that trip with poor conditions!
There is only so much that signage can do. There were quite a few up-thread comments about “outback mentality” in certain areas. I previously posted about my own thoughtless venture into a resort area wherein there were only two gas stations each of which was closed. I pulled in to one of them while “sucking fumes” and the owner soon just happened to drive in to pump a few gallons into his fishing boat’s tank, so I got a reprieve from my thoughtlessness.
Sometimes the best thing a Chamber of Commerce can do is put up a “No Motorist Services for xxx Miles” sign. It avoids having their town be the subject of more gruesome headlines. Anything that prompts a concern for a traveller’s safety prior to treking on a rugged remote road can only help the local economy, not hurt it.
There is only so much that signage can do.
Yes, cuz we even learned later from Kati Kim that she knew they were heading off the main drag – they had just assumed they were not heading into dangerous territory. Although signs might prevent some problems they won’t prevent all of them. I sometimes “live dangerously” with low gas rather than go a bit off route to make sure I have a full tank. No signs will help me with that.
re: 1434
That is precisely what I mean about “outback mentality”.
That “main drag” wasn’t much of a main drag and just about ANY turnoff would indeed have been heading into territory that was more dangerous. An unwarranted assumption about passing traffic or passing snowplows shows a lack of full awareness. There probably wouldn’t have been any on that “main drag” but there was even less of a chance on any of the turnoffs.
Still, once stuck they generally made good decisions about staying put and rationing their food.
Signage won’t do it all. And my error was that I didn’t even glance at the gauage once or think of gasoline before heading off into a remote area. I got lucky. It would have been more of an annoyance than a danger had I been marooned there. It was my thought processes that were deficient. Fortunately, I was merely in a sparsely settled scenic area, not really a rugged one. Small settlements existed, a police station, passing traffic, etc. It was mainly a complete brain failure on my part.
I got lucky.
We all take risks both intentionally and unintentionally that usually have no consequences but sometimes land us in huge trouble.
I think there’s too much of a tendency to look at the “bad luck” situations and think people made serious errors in judgement or didn’t plan properly or were stupid or whatever rather than recognize that risky behavior usually goes unpunished. Sure there are “risk takers” who tend to have more problems but often the difference between a safe and a deadly trip is nothing more than a freak event that may never be repeated.
After I learned that the Kim’s *knew* they were going off the beaten track (rather than were victims of bad signage) I became convinced that their tragedy was much more a tragic fluke event than something we can do much to prevent in the future.
Hey there everyone!!! Come visit our great blog site….I think you’ll like it!
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Sad news today involving an important person linked to the Kim family search and rescue. It appears Daniel Townsend a helicopter pilot, who was involved in rescuing Katy and the girls, was killed in a crash somewhere in Central Oregon.
It’s been a long time since I’ve looked over these post and I can’t remember if he posted on here or not. Still, I thought everyone might like to know.
What sad news, he obviously was a very brave man who dedicated his life and work to helping others. He will be missed and my thoughts go out to his family.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/nwheadlines/2009/10/todays_headlines_kin_questions.html
Just saw the same news that theelkbugler saw but at a different website. This was the pilot who flew Kati and her girls out. He was so young, too. Such a shame.
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_101409_news_pilot_killed_kim_family_rescuer.2179d1914.html
Minor correction. Scott Dunn was the pilot who flew Katie and the girls out. Danny was his spotter and the young blonde man seen in the pictures carrying the baby. There was a wonderful ceremony for Danny here in Medford yesterday. He was a kind loving man and will be missed by all.
It’s been almost two years since the Kim incident, and I was thinking of everyone here and stopped by to check in on you all. I am so sorry to read of the death of Daniel Townsend, that is so very sad.
It’s good to read up the thread and see that the Kim case is used for educational and training purposes. Hope Sara and her team are doing well, and best wishes to all of you.
Sad news in another young death.
Thanks John for corrections and nice to see people still checking in here after so long a time.
Bear Camp route symies travelers
By Jeff Duewel of the Daily Courier
Comments (No comments posted.)
Gene and Deborah Hill of Murphy are the latest drivers to be confounded by the Bear Camp Coastal Route.
Last year the Bureau of Land Management and Forest Service put up more signs and two large information kiosks with maps, to keep people from getting lost on the winding road that goes over 4,500 feet and is not plowed in winter. The road connects Galice in Josephine County to Gold Beach on the coast.
In spite of the new signs, on Monday the Hills ended up calling 911 because they came upon a locked gate at milepost 9 of the route, a couple of hours after leaving Gold Beach.
The gate had probably been locked earlier that day, said Abbie Jossie, Grants Pass Resource Area manager for the BLM. Galice Access Road is blocked between mileposts 4 and 9 during winter because of recurring slides, and the gates are locked on or near Nov. 5. About eight other side roads, including the one the ill-fated Kim family got sidetracked on in 2006, are also closed off in early November.
But the Peavine-Serpentine Springs route, which branches off right next to the locked gate the Hills ran into, is always open for traffic, as indicated on the signs.
It was improved after the slides started hitting the Galice Access route in 2002. It reconnects to Galice Access less than a mile from Galice Road.
Hill was unfamiliar with the Peavine route, and despite a sign showing Galice 14 miles away, he elected to go all the way back to Gold Beach, and come home via Brookings. He said was afraid he’d drive for miles down the Peavine route and find another locked gate.
Previously he had noticed a new kiosk at milepost 11 with a detailed map that showed both routes, but did not stop.
“I said, ‘Wow, that’s new.’ I should have looked at it,” Hill said.
The Hills didn’t get home until 11:30 p.m. He confirmed there was already snow on the higher spots, but the Hills had a four-wheel drive Suzuki Sidekick.
Hill said before he left Gold Beach, the Curry County Sheriff’s Office and Forest Service in Gold Beach indicated the Bear Camp route was open, easing his concerns.
“I asked if there were any detours. We totally checked it out.”
The communication gap seems to be that agencies on the west side aren’t up on the specifics of the Galice Access Road and Peavine-Serpentine routes on the east side.
Hill said he called the Grants Pass Interagency Office and got a recording, then when he called 911, the dispatcher advised him to go back to Gold Beach.
“I don’t think it’s anybody’s fault, but it’s pretty dangerous for them not to coordinate,” Hill said. “I’m aware of what happened up there, that’s why we went to the trouble of calling all the agencies to make sure the road was open.”
The route is has been a problem for winter drivers. The highest profile case in recent years involved James Kim of San Francisco, who died in December 2006 after getting lost in a snowstorm and trying to walk out and save his wife and two daughters, who were later rescued.
At least 30 other people got lost or stranded in the past 15 years on the route. A Montana man died in 1994 after being stranded for several weeks.
The Forest Service and BLM continue to advise against use of Bear Camp in the winter.
o o o
Reach reporter Jeff Duewel at 474-3720 or jduewel@thedailycourier.com
Bob, you beat me to the post! Is that the craziest story? As far as I know, the BLM did not do a press release on the closure of the gates…even on our side. I have not yet been notified.
On another note, for those interested, Katie is considering moving to either Eugene or Portland. She will run her Doe store online. This should be a great move for her and the girls! The girls are so beautiful! If Joe will remind me how to post a photo, I can do that…
A birdie told me that Katie is in the process of writing a book…she is truly amazing!
I hope that everyone here is doing well! It is so interesting to me that people still come back here…Thank you all! Sara
Jeff and Sara,
Thanks for the updates. I did go over Bear Camp both ways this weekend (6 to 8 inches of snow on top). I think the storm tomorrow may close it for the year. The Peavine detour is a real pain and I hope nobody gets stuck down in those two low saddles as it’s a long walk out (up hill both ways, really)!!!I’m driving the snow cat for Jackson County SAR this winter so call us if you need us!
Keep in touch, All
John
Crazy story! Good to see some of the same names still popping in here. Hard to believe it`s already been 3 years. Hope Katie and the girls are doing well.
Hello all!! Just thought I would drop a line to see how everyone is doing! I see people are still stopping by! Happy Holidays to all!!
Nice to see people still checking in after 3 years and about 14,000 comments on this story. Happy holidays to all!
Joe,
Do you still have the same email address? Sara
http://jocosarblog.typepad.com/jocosarblog/
Please come see! Make sure that you also visit http://katekotler.com/news/thank-you-josphinecounty-sar
Sara
Check this out folks! The Kim family with Josephine County SAR folks last week: http://jocosarblog.typepad.com/jocosarblog/2009/12/sunday-was-our-annual-christmas-party-at-sar-house-it-was-an-unusual-one-for-several-reasons-we-were-having-a-rare-cold-and.html
Hi all. thanks Joe for this great update. good to see all the familiar names. the news on the mt hood folks brought this to mind. so glad i checked in! wow, 3 years……
Funny, I was inspired to take a look here after hearing the Mt. Hood story, also.
I actually participated in Cycle Oregon this year, and it was very interesting to cycle through Galice, along the Rogue River, stay in Grants Pass, and have a little bit of context for this story that was so gripping 3 years ago. Beautiful, awesome country. And still such a sad story. I wish Kati and her girls the best.
Watching the Mt. Hood accident unfold, and then the article today on Katie visiting the Josephine county SAR brought me back too. All these old familiar faces – so good to see.
It amazes me that folks are still getting lost / stuck up there (Bear Camp Rd.). It is obvious to most that it is a very remote, very rural, route – and the signage is much improved since the Kim tragedy.
Happy Holidays to all at JD !! – especially to SAR and rescuers like those risking their lives on Mt. Hood right now for what must now be deemed a recovery mission.
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2009/12/searching_with_compassion_surv.html
From the Oregonian even!!
I just stopped by because this topic came up for me recently. So nice to see you guys still posting! Thanks for the link to the article about Mrs. Kim visiting the SAR Christmas party. That was really good to read.
Just read a couple of accounts of people getting lost in OR using a GPS that programmed them far afield of the main roads, into bad conditions.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100101/D9CUTBK81.html
Of course I was reminded of the Kim case, though no GPS was involved there. In one case, the family was found after friends used the exact GPS system and followed the route straight to the family.
The bottom line will remain common sense (Do we really want to save 40′ by leaving the main road?). Good tip in the article to program the GPS for “highways only”, though haven’t tested it myself.
Great to see the Kim family visited JOCOSAR’s Christmas Party, what an moving experience for all concerned.
So nice to see many of the original group still posting on this topic. Wishing you all a safe and properous 2010!
Several GPS systems have sent motorists over non existent bridges or over a narrow pedestrian only bridge. Sometimes cars are sent to the edge of cliff. Its no excuse to rely on a map just because it is an electronic one.
Wow! I had no idea the extent of the discussion here. Just now discovering.
It’s been nearly 4 years since James and I were lost and I’m still amazed by the attention our situation received.
In case anyone’s wondering, and still reads these comments, the kids I are doing great. We live in Oregon now.
John Rachor and Sarah R have become two of our dearest friends.
Penelope (the oldest) absolutely idolizes Sarah and says she wants to be a “Search and Rescue” person when she grows up. Sabine (the youngest) adopted one of Sarah’s chihuahua puppies this past Summer at a SAR training camp at Gold Beach.
Joe – Thank you for maintaining this site.
Kati! It’s really neat to have you check in here although I hope some of the exchanges are not too upsetting to you – I did not edit much of the dialog and it got pretty heated as your amazing story unfolded.
I’m very happy you live in Oregon now and have found such fine friends in Oregon as John and Sarah. They both contributed so much to the rescue and also helped keep people informed here at the blog where a lot of folks were checking in as the days went on.
Please let me know if there’s anything I can ever do to help or show you and the girls around Southern Oregon!
Thanks, Joe!
Was actually just texting Sarah, and suggested we all have lunch sometime.
Thanks for the concern – the exchanges are really not too upsetting at this point. Though, I’m glad not to have read the “conspiracy” theories early on.
And, I agree – both John and Sarah are excellent people 🙂
Kati I’d really enjoy that! You should not list your phone here but mine is: 541-535-7640 email is jhunkins@gmail.com
Not a Thanksgiving time goes by that I don’t remember. It’s about that time of year already. So good to hear about such good friendships born from such tragedy.
Just got off OregonLive’s discussion board regarding the recent 20/20 piece on Kati. Snarls lives on, regrettably, but Kati did a fine job of trying to put him in his place – which is in a troll cave somewhere. So many years, still many strong feelings remain about this tragic event.
http://news.yahoo.com/2nd-save-pilot-found-ore-mushroom-pickers-035450123.html
John made the news again. Time passes but the same good people do what they do.
Happy Holidays. . . . . .6 years later and this thread is still around. . . . . .Hope all are found well this season!!
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