Of course we are not alone in the universe, but not for the reasons suggested by most UFO enthusiasts.


I can’t tell you how much I wish the UFO stories were all true.   In fact I’d be thrilled if even *one* of them was a credible story.   But they aren’t.  It’s very, very unlikely that even a single one of the thousands of reported stories about aliens visiting earth are true, for the reasons I discuss below.

Every so often Astronaut Ed Mitchell is quoted – here at CNN – talking about the Government cover ups of Roswell and other alien incidents he is convinced prove the existence of extraterrestrials and their visits to earth.    With all due respect to Mr. Mitchell’s accomplished career this is an area where he’s by no means an expert and clearly has just been convinced by the same silly stories that have convinced thousands of other people “We are not alone”, mostly because they want to believe rather than because there is any compelling evidence.    In fact there is no compelling evidence of alien visits to earth, and the idea the Government is covering up those visits is just dumb.

Don’t get me wrong – it is in my view it is nearly *certain* that there are at least *millions* of other planets with intelligent life on them.   I’ve blogged about why I think there’s a very high likelihood that there are probably many billions of civilizations in the universe.     In short it’s because we – as little replicating macromolecular structures – are unlikely to be all that special and because the universe is so darn huge with hundreds of billions of *galaxies*, each with hundreds of billions of stars and probably billions of planets.

But unfortunately for us earth lies in the low traffic zone of our milky way galaxy.    We are so far from the center, and so far from even the closest star, that visits from aliens – especially organic ones like the dude pictured in the silly Roswell hoax – are very, very unlikely.    Even with advanced technologies it would likely take many organic being lifetimes to travel to earth.  Tommo corrects me on this – time dilation would allow organic beings to travel extensively if the ship could approach speed of light.

Why would they choose this part of the Galaxy when the center is teaming with  star systems and probably millions of times more life per sector?

Don’t flatter yourself – the idea that we have attained some special status of great interest to more advanced beings that have the technologies to travel throughout the galaxy is a weak idea.   Possible, sure, but weak.

We are NOT alone in the universe, but we won’t be visited anytime soon.

Signed,

Roswell Joe

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About JoeDuck

Internet Travel Guy, Father of 2, small town Oregon life. BS Botany from UW Madison Wisconsin, MS Social Sciences from Southern Oregon. Top interests outside of my family's well being are: Internet Technology, Online Travel, Globalization, China, Table Tennis, Real Estate, The Singularity.
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82 Responses to Of course we are not alone in the universe, but not for the reasons suggested by most UFO enthusiasts.

  1. Matthew K. says:

    Joe Duck, how can you say intelligent life definitely exists elsewhere out there and then say with just as much certainty that we have not been visited yet? Even mainstream scientists agree that some form of life must exist somewhere out there, the probability is just too high to ignore. But then you say with just as much certainty that it’s impossible we’ve already been visited. You say there isn’t hard evidence, however there is evidence all over the place. It may not be the illusive hard evidence, but isn’t it enough to warrant a more intensive investigation instead of ignoring it and labeling it as a hoax? We are all brainwashed into laughing and dismissing it without a second thought when we should be giving it a more thorough examination with an open mind.

    So why haven’t we had the “Whitehouse lawn landing” yet? Probably because everyone would freak out. Look at what happened when “War of the Worlds” went on the air, people literally committed suicide. I tend to think it wouldn’t be that bad today but there would still be mass hysteria. Also, the religious people would probably get very defensive, after all aren’t we supposed to be God’s center of attention? Why wasn’t there any mention of this in religious texts? Lots of religious people would probably do something crazy and label them as demons, causing even more mass hysteria. Until we as a world become more scientific in our ways of thinking I sadly think first contact will be postponed. We have great potential and I think they (the extraterrestrials) see this, but in many ways we are still too primitive.

  2. John Gabriel says:

    We are probably not alone. However, only intelligent life can create intelligent life. Although I completely reject religion, I also reject evolution because it is false.

    I am not saying the big bang did not happen – just that it might be a controlled experiment and many of our ideas regarding the same, are in all likelihood completely off-track.

    The reality is that no one knows how the universe came to be.

  3. Brainless_Skeptic says:

    I with they were true

    I go to church

    I have never looked into UFOS or even did an FOIA the thousands of proof in FOIA

    but just like this blogger I know they are not real
    I just have never bothered thinking about it.

  4. Brainless_Skeptic says:

    I know that people like us have never bothered looking up and just like the above 2 posters I dont know anything about UFOS

    But UFOS cannot be real we dont need to even get informed its just impossible so we can do little research

  5. Truthseeker says:

    Edgar Mitchell has walked on the moon. And he was told this by the Joints Chief of Staff, a higher position that some guy with a computer and a blog.

    I think that writing a blog does not mean you know what UFOS are sorry but you seem silly.

  6. Truthseeker says:

    All you have to do is spend a little more than 15 minutes doing some research and your uninformative theory about UFOS will actually provide something worthwhile.

    And if you look at the poll 60% to 40% believe we have been visited, so you are now in the intellectual minority.

  7. Truthseeker says:

    Why do they put these brainless blogs to the top, did you notice nobody is learning anything from this bloggers emptyheaded theory on UFOs.

    Good grief UFOs are real
    why are you trying to be in denial

  8. Tomas says:

    I think its a little foolish to believe an alien lifeform with the knowledge and means to come here would bother to make itself known to mankind as a whole. I don’t doubt that they’ve visited, but I do believe that they probably took one look at humanity and said, “Nope. These guys would be a poison to the galaxy. They can’t take care of their own planet or even stop killing themselves.”

  9. Mike D. says:

    The other possibility….

    I know we think we’re such an oh so interesting species and all, but what if alien visitors really just crave smoked salmon, and this is the only place in the universe to get some. That to me would make far more sense than coming down here to monitor some hairless warmongering genocidal group of talking monkeys. If you seriously look at our track record, it’s not pleasant.

  10. Lance says:

    Great post!

    It has got to be depressing for UFO believers and “researchers” to know that, after 60 years, we don’t know even one additional fact about UFO’s. I was a believer as a teen, but began to see that Ufology as a science makes for a pretty good casserole recipe.

    Stephen Bassett, the organizer of the conference, is on the record saying that he does not care about the credibility of his “witnesses”. And he presents witnesses who are discredited, disheveled and disappointing. Some are known frauds.

    Hilariously, at yesterday’s press conference, Bassett threatened the government with the release of embarrassing documents if they don’t precipitate the “disclosure event” by the end of May.

    Somehow, I don’t think the government (or anyone) even noticed. And Bassett will go back to his borrowed couches and basement rooms until next year, when his credibility is sure to be somewhat less (and hey, it wasn’t very high anyway).

    Lance

  11. Jeff says:

    You’re a moron. Edgar Mitchell has been to a place that you will never go in your lifetime. He’s been to the place that aliens come from. He’s seen more than you will ever see. Compared to you, I would consider him enlightened and certainly a more credible source than you. What are your credentials? Have you been to space? Have you worked for NASA? Have you talked to hundreds, if not thousands of military and other high ranking officials? Do you have any F-ing idea what your talking about?

  12. Truthseeker says:

    Do you Want To Support The Troops?
    Being Skeptic Not as Cool as you Thought?

    Below is a list of Military/Government insiders and scientists who have made public statements that some of the UFOs do not come from Earth, but not all, they will also testify under oath that the government is covering up the reality of extra-terrestrial life.

    Testimony that Explains the Secrecy
    Merle Shane McDow: US Navy Atlantic Command
    Lt. Col. Charles Brown: US Air Force (Ret.)
    “Dr. B”
    Lance Corporal Jonathan Weygandt: US Marine Corps
    Maj. George A. Filer, III: US Air Force (Ret.)
    Nick Pope: British Ministry of Defense Official
    Larry Warren: US Air Force, Security Officer
    Sgt. Clifford Stone: US Army
    Master Sgt. Dan Morris: US Air Force, NRO Operative
    A.H.: Boeing Aerospace Employee
    Officer Alan Godfrey: British Police
    Sgt. Karl Wolf: US Air Force
    Ms. Donna Hare: NASA Employee
    Mr. John Maynard: DIA Official
    Dr. Robert Wood: McDonnell Douglas Aerospace Engineer
    Glen Dennis: NM UFO Crash Witness
    Sgt. Leonard Pretko: US Air Force
    Dr. Roberto Pinotti: Italian UFO expert
    Dr. Paul Czysz: McDonnell Douglas Career Engineer
    Astronaut Edgar Mitchell
    John Callahan: FAA Head of Accidents and Investigations
    Michael Smith: US Air Force Radar Controller
    Franklin Carter: US Navy Radar Technician
    Neil Daniels: United Airlines Pilot
    Lt. Frederick Fox: US Navy Pilot
    Captain Robert Salas: US Air Force, SAC Launch Controller
    Prof. Robert Jacobs: US Air Force
    Harry Allen Jordan: US Navy
    James Kopf: US Navy Crypto Communications

    Witness Testimony
    Overview
    Astronaut Edgar Mitchell: May 1998
    Monsignor Corrado Balducci: September 2000

    Radar and Pilot Cases
    Introduction
    FAA Division Chief John Callahan
    Sgt. Chuck Sorrells: US Air Force (ret.)
    Mr. Michael W. Smith: US Air Force
    Commander Graham Bethune: US Navy (ret.)
    Mr. Enrique Kolbeck: Senior Air Traffic Controller,
    Dr. Richard Haines
    Mr. Franklin Carter: US Navy
    Neil Daniels: Airline Pilot
    Sgt. Robert Blazina (ret.)
    Lieutenant Frederick Marshall Fox: US Navy (ret.)
    Captain Massimo Poggi
    Lt. Bob Walker: US Army
    Mr. Don Bockelman: US Army

    SAC/Nuke
    Introduction
    Captain Robert Salas
    Professor Robert Jacobs: Lt. US Air Force
    Lt. Colonel Dwynne Arneson: US Air Force (ret.)
    Colonel Ross Dedrickson: US Air Force/AEC (ret.)
    Harry Allen Jordan: US Navy
    Mr. James Kopf: US Navy/ National Security Agency
    Lieutenant Colonel Joe Wojtecki, US Air Force
    Staff Sergeant Stoney Campbell: US Air Force

    Government Insiders/ NASA/ Deep Insiders
    Astronaut Gordon Cooper
    Merle Shane McDow: US Navy Atlantic Command
    Lieutenant Colonel Charles Brown: US Air Force (ret.), October
    Dr. Carol Rosin
    “Dr. B.”
    Lance Corporal John Weygandt: U.S. Marine Corps,
    Major A. Filer III: U.S. Air Force
    Mr. Nick Pope: British Ministry Of Defense
    Admiral Lord Hill-Norton: Five-Star Admiral, Former Head of the British Ministry of Defense
    Security Officer Larry Warren: United States Air Force,
    Captain Lori Rehfeldt
    Sergeant Clifford Stone: United States Army
    Major-General Vasily Alexeyev: Russian Air Force,
    Master Sergeant Dan Morris: US Air Force/NRO Operative (ret.)
    Mr. Don Phillips: Lockheed Skunkworks, USAF, and CIA Contractor
    Captain Bill Uhouse: US Marine Corps (ret.)
    Lieutenant Colonel John Williams: US Air Force (ret.)
    Mr. Don Johnson
    A.H.: Boeing Aerospace, December 2000
    British Police Officer Alan Godfrey
    Mr. Gordon Creighton: Former British Foreign Service Official
    Sergeant Karl Wolfe: US Air Force
    Donna Hare: Former NASA Employee
    Mr. John Maynard: Defense Intelligence Agency (ret.)
    Mr. Harland Bentley: US Army
    Dr. Robert Wood: McDonnell Douglas Aerospace Engineer,
    Dr. Alfred Webre: Senior Policy Analyst Stanford Research Institute
    Denise McKenzie: Former SAIC employee
    Mr. Paul H. Utz
    Colonel Phillip J. Corso, Sr.: US Army (ret.)
    Mr. Glen Dennis
    Lieutenant Walter Haut: US Navy
    Buck Sergeant Leonard Pretko: US Air Force
    Mr. Dan Willis: US Navy
    Dr. Roberto Pinotti

    Technology/Science
    Introduction
    Mr. Mark McCandlish: US Air Force
    Professor Paul Czysz
    Dr. Hal Puthoff
    David Hamilton: Department of Energy
    Lieutenant Colonel Thomas E. Bearden: US Army (ret)
    Dr. Eugene Mallove
    Dr. Paul La Violette
    Mr. Fred Threlfall: Royal Canadian Air Force
    Dr. Ted Loder

    All the above insiders have spoken out about what they saw and what they know about what our government is hiding

    I ask you again do you support our military? Do you think these people would lie?
    Do you want our taxes spent on secret black-op programs that we never get told about?

    Its Time To Open the Books

  13. Lavarat says:

    For 60

    Years

    The Skeptics Have Made Themselves

    Look Foolish Over and Over

    Now That The Truth Says

    That UFO Researchers were right

    How will Skeptics deal with facts that are against them

  14. xroc says:

    They do not use the same communication mediums that we use. Every once in a while their communication mediums fluctuate due to the natural flows of the Universe and in one form or another a medium that we can monitor can be influenced as if hit by waves in a pond. When we detect the fluctuations we just say “WOW!” and move on.

    Our scientist tell us that since if it can’t be observed multiple times it proves nothing, but listen carefully they are not denying its existence. They know it exists because it happened once, they just can not prove why and how it happens. They are trying to tell us what they will not even admit to themselves. We already have public proof of what is out there.

    The next time you enjoy your favorite selection of chocolate take a moment to imagine the origins of the coca plant as we know it going back to a time when Mar’s was still able to support abundant life and realized you may be consuming a product produced from the fruits of another world. Too bad they did not survive our Universe would be a different place.

    NASA knows there was once life on Mars, but they are not covering it up, they just can’t prove it yet. They can’t let free their tongs until they can best the skeptic.

    We will know.

  15. lavarat says:

    “The Ramey Memo” Is the smoking gun

  16. Lance says:

    I know the stories of some of the folks in the above list (I note that many names are repeated).

    Walter Haut–a Roswell witness, initially had not seen anything but as the years went on, his story got BETTER and BETTER and by the time he was on his deathbed, he had seen the bodies, the craft, everything. If he had lived a bit longer he might have repaired the craft and flown away in it.

    Glen Dennis is considered a liar by ALL of the major Roswell researchers. Again his story changed and got better over the years. In every point that he claimed that could be checked into, he was found to be a liar.

    Phillip Corso’s story Day After Roswell contains known falsehoods, even admitted by his co-author.

    The list above uses the classic UFO religion tactic of Quantity over Quality. Many of the names above are people who witnessed nothing . Others are just UFO buffs. None provide a convincing piece of evidence.

    At yesterday’s conference Bassett announced a “breakthrough” in the silly alien implant removal story. His witness just presented the same sad “evidence” and the press (if any were in the room) just yawned.

    It would be funny if Bassett wasn’t such a sad, sometimes deranged and pathetic man.

  17. Truthseeker says:

    Testimony that Explains the Secrecy
    Merle Shane McDow: US Navy Atlantic Command <——–not cooky
    Lt. Col. Charles Brown: US Air Force (Ret.)
    “Dr. B”
    Lance Corporal Jonathan Weygandt: US Marine Corps
    Maj. George A. Filer, III: US Air Force (Ret.)
    Nick Pope: British Ministry of Defense Official<—-not cooky

    Master Sgt. Dan Morris: US Air Force, NRO Operative
    A.H.: Boeing Aerospace Employee
    Officer Alan Godfrey: British Police
    Sgt. Karl Wolf: US Air Force <——also not cooky
    Ms. Donna Hare: NASA Employee<—–not cooky
    Mr. John Maynard: DIA Official
    Dr. Robert Wood: McDonnell Douglas Aerospace Engineer
    Glen Dennis: NM UFO Crash Witness
    Sgt. Leonard Pretko: US Air Force<———also not cooky
    Dr. Roberto Pinotti: Italian UFO expert
    Dr. Paul Czysz: McDonnell Douglas Career Engineer
    Astronaut Edgar Mitchell<———–more not cooky
    John Callahan: FAA Head <—-not cooky

  18. Trevor says:

    I think it’s hilarious that most of you who are posting have probably never read any relevant piece of information on UFOs, such as the study performed by Sturrock and company (‘UFO Enigma’), yet you seem to have definite opinions in favor of them not visiting.

    Take it from someone who has studied the subject for over 15 years and has actually talked to witnesses who have seen UFOs, it is HIGHLY likely that we have visitors. It is highly unlikely that they will make open contact.

    For any of us to say that we know what’s out there is just speculation. Even scientists argue over the number of possible civilizations in our Milky Way. If one of those civilizations is just a thousand years ahead of us technologically, that’s HUGE.

    Do you homework on the subject. Don’t be like Seth Shostak or Bill Nye and make proclamations about what you THINK is going on. Until you look at the data, you can’t make an educated guess.

    For those of you who are religious, this may challenge your worldview. It should. You should do some introspection at this point.

  19. Truthseeker says:

    Lance you would make a good arguement if you provided something compelling, so far you do not appear to know what your talking about.

    Your going to need to grow up Lance

  20. Truthseeker says:

    How will skeptics deal with being wrong for 60 years?

    Its psychologically traumatic for skeptics to deal with being wrong.

  21. Lance says:

    Truthseeker,

    Before I grow up, may I ask in the reposted list above, when you typed the word “cooky” over and over, did you actually mean “kooky”?

    LOL–and VERY convincing.

  22. Truthseeker says:

    If I was a skeptic I would call myself “kooky” thats what skeptics spent time doing, is getting those terms corrected so they look cool online

  23. FAKELance says:

    I don’t know about this that or UFOs or anything

    but I post my opinion online but never research

    I am a skeptic and I know all the answers just from google

  24. Lance says:

    I need to note here that the believers, in a sprit of fairness and openness so common among UFO nuts, are posting using my name. Hopefully, the barely comprehensible thoughts of the impostors separate them from my own ravings?

  25. wonderin says:

    what would happen if aliens were to make first contact with the leaders of some other country, say china… what would that say to americans? would the papers try to play it down, and would people be as interested? or would it be laughed at and made to be a hoax?

    what if they made first contact with north korea, or somalia, or france? if aliens wanted to play with our global politics they could easily do so depending on where they made first contact.

  26. Robert says:

    Malmstrom AFB, Montana (1975):

    Staff Sgt. Joseph M. Chassey—Former Minuteman ICBM maintenance technician, 341st Missile Maintenance Squadron, Malmstrom AFB, Montana:

    Chassey states that one night in the fall of 1975, he overhead a two-way radio transmission alerting Air Force Security Police about an unknown craft hovering over the base’s Weapons Storage Area.

    Chassey said that the incident was widely discussed at the missile mechanical shop the following day. He later heard additional details about it from a friend, who was a helicopter re-fueler.

    Apparently, two base helicopters had been scrambled to chase the intruder, which rapidly flew toward Belt, Montana, some ten miles distant. As the pursuing choppers neared the town, the unidentified craft quickly doubled-back to Malmstrom—leaving them far behind—and again hovered over the WSA for a short period of time before finally departing.

    Chassey states that the object was described as an extremely bright light and was assumed to have been a bona fide UFO because of its superior capabilities. He emphasized, “It flat outran the helicopters. We heard that it zipped out to Belt and back to the base in no time.”

    Chassey, who separated from the Air Force at the end of October, 1975, believes that the incident occurred shortly before he left Malmstrom.

    Comment: USAF documents from October 1975, declassified via the Freedom of Information Act, confirm other UFO sightings at the Weapons Storage Areas at Wurtsmith AFB, Michigan, and Loring AFB, Maine. At the time, each base hosted B-52 nuclear bomber squadrons. At Wurtsmith, initial sighting reports referred to the unidentified craft as a “helicopter”, however, the radar operator aboard a nearby KC-135 aircraft later tracked the craft traveling at approximately 1000 knots, far faster than any known helicopter. At Loring, some reports mentioned an “unidentified helicopter” near the WSA. However, eyewitness accounts from a B-52 ground crew indicated that the “helicopter” was bright orange, football-shaped, and had hovered silently. (For an extended discussion of these cases, consult Lawrence Fawcett and Barry Greenwood’s authoritative book, Clear Intent, later re-named The UFO Cover-Up.)

  27. Robert says:

    1st Lt. Philip Moore—Former Atlas ICBM launch officer (Deputy Missile Combat Crew Commander), 579th Strategic Missile Squadron, Walker AFB, New Mexico:

    Moore, who retired as a Lieutenant Colonel, states that one night in the fall of 1964, while on alert in the launch capsule at Atlas Site 7, his missile commander, Major Dan Gilbert, received an extraordinary call from one of their “sister sites”, either Site 6 or Site 8. The commander at the other site reported that an extremely bright light was repeatedly hovering directly over the site, racing away, returning, and hovering again. Apparently, one of the enlisted men at the site, perhaps the security guard, had observed this activity and reported it to the missile commander.

    Moore states that some of Site 7’s own enlisted men, including Tech. Sgt. Jack Nevins, were ordered up to the “silo cap” to monitor the situation. Moore states, “They reported the UFO zooming from the direction of Site 6 to the direction of Site 8 and hovering for awhile at the end of the movement…They all described it as a silent light that moved extremely rapidly—instant go and instant stop, no getting up to speed or slowing down. The common comment I remember was that everyone thought it was a UFO, and that it was hovering directly over Sites 6 and 8 and nowhere else. Thus, it was specifically interested in those sites.”

    Moore states that the Site 7 crew were never debriefed and never warned not to discuss the incident. “In other words,” he said, “there was no official discussion or acknowledgment.” Moore concluded, “I personally believe that there is something to the UFO/ICBM connection. I know the Air Force covers-up when it feels the official need. UFOs over ICBM sites could be one of those official needs.”

  28. Lance says:

    The above cases (cut and pasted here by Robert) are interesting but say nothing of extraterrestrials–just lights in the sky.

    I note that in the recent Morristown UFO Hoax, that witnesses described movement and size and intent that simply were not possible for flares in the sky (which they were revealed to be).

    Nothing above is really different from the history of UFO sightings (which I will warrant that I know a considerable bit about despite the freakishly written opinions above). There are thousands of reports of lights in the sky, almost all are easily explained as prosaic.

    I would guess that helicopter is a pretty good guess for the above event –during the time period radar was prone to false reading. UFO believers are silent about the damning fact that as radar has improved, UFO radar tracks have dwindled.

  29. Lance says:

    I am reminded also of the idiotic Steven Greer on CBS’s 48 Hours.

    Greer is one of the stars of Bassett’s “Disclosure” movement and claims to regularly communicate and interact with UFO’s.

    He took the CBS crew into the field and soon was shrieking about some lights he saw in the distance-he said they were his alien friends but as the lights got closer, it became more and more apparent that on this night, at least, the aliens were driving a conventional helicopter.

    Just think of it, Greer claims to REGULARLY communicate, see and be able to call down at will, UFO’s be he can’t provide ONE ounce of convincing evidence. And he is at the top of the heap when it comes to this sorry field.

    The main purpose of the UFO community (at this time) is to provide humor and in that calling there is no equal.

  30. Lavarat says:

    Lance I advise you do a little more research so you have a better grip of what is going on.

    So far you don’t appear to really have any ideas that hold any water.

  31. Lavarat says:

    Lance,

    You have nothing, no proof of anything, no testimony to back up your claim that, Dr. Mitchell is a hoax or that you have the answer.

    Please show some evidence or else nobody will waste their time.

  32. JC says:

    The entire Universe is so well fine-tuned, just for life on earth to exist. If anything were even a fraction off at an atomic level, life would not exist. To ASSUME that life came from nothing and just “magically” appeared is beyond human comprehension. I used to believe in UFOs, ETs and that life on earth was just by luck. However, the more I studied UFOs and everything that has to happen in order for life to exist on earth, the more I realized that life had a Creator. There’s a reason why there’s no hard evidence for UFOs. Satan and his co-horts have control over the air and are spiritual beings, not physical. Accept the TRUTH. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. There is a spiritual war going on for your soul. Unfortunately, I believe in the near future, the spiritual realm will collide with the physical. No UFOs. No ETs. Just plain demons since the beginning of Creation.

  33. TruthSeeker says:

    aul Hellyer, a former Minister of Defence in the Pearson Government, has announced his belief that UFOs are real and that the US is developing weapons systems for space which are to be used against alien craft entering earth’s airspace. He voiced his opinions at the recent “2005 Toronto Exopolitics Symposium”. Exopolitics is a new term used to describe the study of the politics of extraterrestrial contact. It is usually discussed in a context which assumes that enough evidence exists from existing UFO reports to conclude that some UFOs are craft that are piloted by beings originating from other planets and solar systems. Hellyer’s comments received some coverage in the national media and stirred some interest and reaction from the public, mostly from those who have some interest in UFOs.

    Hellyer’s History as Political Nomad

    Paul Hellyer was first elected as a Liberal from Toronto’s Davenport riding in 1949. He was, at that time, the youngest MP to serve in Canada’s parliament. He served as a parliamentary assistant to the Minister of National Defence and then went on to serve as the Associate Minister of Defence in the cabinet of Prime Minister Louis Saint-Laurent. He later served as Minister of National Defence in Prime Minister Pearson’s cabinet in the mid 1960s and served as Minister of Transport in the cabinet of Prime Minister Trudeau. His most notable and controversial achievement was the integration and unification of Canada’s army, navy and air forces into a single organization, the Canadian Forces.

  34. TruthSeeker says:

    The Catholic Church as made the statement “Extra-terrestrials are ok to believe in, they too are God’s children”

    I guess your religous argument failed.

  35. Chuck Canada says:

    I’m still not convinced we’ve found intelligent life here on earth. If indeed there are ‘aliens’ out there in the void, they wouldn’t bother with us. Only humankind’s vanity makes us worthwhile. Scientifically, we know next to nothing about our own planet. How could we ever hope to travel the stars when we can’t safely harness the power of even mundane substances(as given by Einstein, you know E=mc^2)? We are a long way from being ‘on the radar’ for any civilization other than our own.

  36. TruthSeeker says:

    The Skeptics are proof that humans are not very smart.

  37. TruthSeeker says:

    I can’t believe you think Dr. Mitchell is lying.

    how silly and stupid can you people get

  38. Chuck Canada says:

    Lying, that’s possible. I tend to think of it as selective hearing, then expounding on what you “heard”. Does that make it a lie? Depends on your intent I suppose.

  39. Mark says:

    Another egotistic human with a puny brain unable to grasp technology a million (or more) years ahead of us.

    They certainly CAN travel across a galaxy in a short period of time. We have only had technology for a couple hundred years (if that). They may have advancing technology for a billion years! So far ahead of us that we are mere insects in intellectual comparison to them. Why would you communicate with ants? The same reason they don’t feel compelled to communicate with us.
    They know technology that we cannot even comprehend. May be even time travel, or parallel universe travel.

  40. TruthSeeker says:

    He was briefed at the Pentagon by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
    Have you ever been briefed at the Pentagon? NO

    Please do your homework.

    Mitchell is an American Hero a true hero, stop being so anti-american.

  41. Mikey says:

    To the blogger who denies the possibility based on the amount of time a being would need to travel here. How do you know that more intelligent beings from other worlds can’t bend time and space in order to create an accelerated path from which to travel?

  42. Lance says:

    Dear Truthseeker and Lavarat,

    While it does seem unfair to argue with you as your above posts show your childlike inability to follow an argument, I do need to clear up a few things.

    I am not calling Mitchell a liar. Mitchell makes no explicit claims (he is not even a UFO witness, as far as I know) instead he gives his opinion that the government is covering up the UFO story. I am again not calling him a liar, I am merely saying that I think he is wrong.

    Mitchell does believe a lot of WOO WOO claims like remote healing and ESP. Is there the slightest possibility that ANY of them are wrong?

    In the UFO religion, anyone who believes is a friend and must be supported however silly they are.

    As I said before Bassett said on the record he doesn’t not care if his witnesses are credible. And I am sure that you feel that is responsible and right.

    And I pity you…

  43. TruthSeeker says:

    Mark you are correct.

    We are still burning massive amounts of fuel to get into space, its very silly to think that humans are technologically advanced, people think ipods are high-tech, they have no idea what the human potential could be if we were not denied the truth.

  44. Diane says:

    I can understand how people who have never experienced the phenomena have trouble buying into the possibility that ETs are out there and watching us. Yet, many of these same skeptics have no difficulty at all putting their faith in an invisible all-knowing god who they claim is out there and watching over us. They believe that their god created man in ‘his’ image and we’ve been given dominion over the universe. Personally, that’s way more difficult for me to believe, and I see that belief system as being created by a select group of men who use it to dominate the rest of us. As someone who had a childhood and adolescence fraught with interaction with ‘something,’ I KNOW that we are not alone, whether that ‘something’ is interdimensional or extraterrestrial. My earliest experience had to be at the age of 2 or 3 and continued through my teen years. I’m 58, so we’re talking early 50s, way before the abduction literature. These experiences have always been in my consciousness….it’s not like I read a book and convinced myself. No doubt there are thousands of hoaxes…faked photos, outrageous intergalactic travellers and the like. Don’t assume that the phenomena is a figment of the imagination because of them. I don’t consider myself an ‘abductee.’ More like an experiencer of something I really don’t understand but wish I did. What makes me laugh more than anything is the concept of ‘if they exist why don’t they land on the White House lawn?’ People who ask this question have watched ‘The Day the Earth Stood Still’ way too many times. Let’s assume they exist. Let’s assume they’ve been watching us and interacting. If so, then they know who and what we are as a species…we’ve got a mindset of shoot and ask questions later (and not just when it comes to this subject). Here’s an analogy…a group of scientists goes into the jungle to study apes…do they introduce themselves to the head ape to make their intentions known? No. They tranquilize them, study them, tag them and release them back into the general population. Folks, in the galactic scheme of things, we’re the apes.

  45. TruthSeeker says:

    Mitchell was briefed at the Pentagon by the big boys, and he knows what he is talking about.

    Now he says this is all true, Roswell was not us, it was something else, yes ET.

    As far as I am concerned if you read Mitchell’s resume and education credentials including getting the Presidential Medal of Honor award and 5 Doctorate degrees, plus much more to be the record holder for the longest lunar walk that he is telling us what has been scientifically proven.

    Now what are you trying to argue that you know more than this great man?

  46. TruthSeeker says:

    I understand why so many are skeptical in fact I am to some degree. Its because the media has distorted the facts for many years leaving it impossible for us to get a good hold on it.

    If Roswell was just a weather balloon, then why does the USAF still refuse to declassify it?

  47. JoeDuck says:

    Thanks for many interesting comments! It is surprising to me that so many are challenging what I’d argue is an obvious and almost inescapable conclusion based on the rather extensive history of hoaxes and UFO reports that almost always boil down to misaprehension or misperception.

    Of course I’m not “certain” of my conclusions, but the “no alien visits, lots of aliens” conclusion is cleary suggested by all the data we have. The “aliens abductions” stories are not people lying, they are must misperceptions of the events. Isn’t it curious that no abductees – zero – have any definitive evidence of abductions? Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Aliens sloppily left those memories yet erased every shred of real evidence?

    For the few that are not clearly bogus or misinterpreted there is almost zero likelihood they reflect real contact.

    Why? 1) The distances involved or our unfortunate remote location in the galaxy!! Aliens are not visiting for *practical* reasons.

    2) Technologies that could travel those distances would almost certainly be well beyond our comprehension and ability to detect with any means unless the aliens wanted to be known. Why would they leave the alleged little pieces of evidence and glimpses of their ships and such? You can’t reasonably suggest that they do not want us to know about them but they have been very sloppy covering their tracks. If you can travel trillions of miles as an organic being to remote galactic locations covering your tracks 100% would be … the easy part. This of course begs the silly notion they would not want to be known. Star Trek’s prime directive aside, it is very likely that organic aliens would want to say “hi” after that trip.

  48. horatiox says:

    There may be lifeforms on other planets, but earth-like conditions are not that prevalent (not to say I buy the fine-tuning argument, though it is interesting), and I strongly doubt humans will ever encounter the little green men of sci-fi/star trek fantasies–and aliens could be malevolent (as with that nasty critter in the flick Alien itself) or toxic/viral, etc. Any life in the neighborhood of this solar system, will probably be like bacterial or moss-like.

    For that matter, the crafts of intelligent sci-fi like aliens would be constrained by the speed of light (just as we are, notwithstanding the dreams of some quantum mystic sorts), and unless they had some mysterious, unknown cloaking technology, detectable even a few light-years away.

  49. leland stamper says:

    A belief in visiting space aliens is where a lot of religions spring from. What does it mean? Who dares to say?

  50. JoeDuck says:

    Seems that only Lance and Horatiox have commented on the obvious basic science issues here.

    FYI I’m not saying Mitchell or others who advocate for UFO visits are lying – they are just applying very low levels of skepticism to the data and thus it’s easy to find “proof” of pretty much anything you want to believe in. There are many hoax folks too and it’s funny to me how comfortable UFOlogists are suffering the foolishness of the charlatans they know are lying. In many cases you can follow the money. Roswell’s tourism has boomed thanks to the “incident” and in tourism we actually identify Roswell as a travel niche approach some others are considering to boost visits to their towns. Here in Southern Oregon the hoax of choice is “Bigfoot” who pops up to the gullible every few years.

    Most knowledgeable and credible scientists belive that probably the conditions for life exist elsewhere, but very few think UFOs have come here to earth for the reasons I discuss in the post above. For those of you who want “real scientists” to support your view consider how few support your view. I’d rather use reason on my own anyway – which leads to the conclusion “no visits”.

    My guess is that to stop Mitchell’s embarrasing comments NASA showed him some classified info abut Roswell (which has been *totally* debunked and anybody who spends any time reseaching UFOs already knows this!). As a believer he simply looked for any inconsistencies or gaps or whatever and “concluded” he’d seen proof. The idea that the Joint Chiefs of Staff believe UFOs visited us is simply preposterous.

    Diane we probably are not galactic apes – more like cockroaches given there has been 14+ billion years for other brighter characters to evolve. But your arguments that we’d be abducted, prodded, and released like Apes is totally flawed. Science has spent billions of dollars in reseach trying to communicate more effectively with animals, not to mention all the dog and cat obedience training. We do not generally disguise ourselves from the “less intelligent” creatures.

    In fact for the folks who think the Aliens are here but *do not want us to know* has it occurred to you that they may be pissed off at those who are revealing their existence? 😆

  51. Tommo says:

    So… proposition:

    1. Highly advanced civilizations exist.
    2. Said civilizations “certainly” visit us and are “very unlikely” to “make contact.”

    Information theory says: a difference that makes no difference is no difference. Doesn’t matter to the hummin’ beans whether them danged aliens is there or not.

    On the scientifical front: I don’t imagine a star cluster would be an especially hospitable place for organic life. I have a vague memory of a cosmologist who said dumpy little galactic suburbs, kinda like ours, are the likely spots. AFAIR, he proposed that we are among the earlier civilizations around here.

    And never forget: space is really frakkin’ *big*. Nothing we’ve transmitted has gotten beyond a fairly small group of star systems yet.

    Champy on the other hand is real. I saw him once after a hard night at the Monopole.

  52. Tommo says:

    Oh — on lightspeed and “many lifetimes to travel to Earth” — it doesn’t require many lifetimes, time dilation near C takes care of that. Means the folks back home will long be dust when one returns, but if that is acceptable then even we monkeys have interstellar capability. We just don’t care to launch an Orion type vehicle from the planetary surface, which I think is a perfectly sensible policy 🙂

    • JoeDuck says:

      Hey Tommo, I didn’t challenge Champy’s existence. Didn’t we see her up at Fort Blunder on one of our ill-fated teen bike adventures? : )

      I’m digesting your point about aging and time dilation at speed of light. Assuming the ships could reach near light speed the occupants would be able to travel huge distances with very little aging. Still, the distances are so huge – millions of light years – it seems you couldn’t cheat a lifespan that easily. Update: Interesting Sagan quote suggested at .99c you could travel to center of galaxy in 21 years your time. Let’s go dudes!

  53. Paul says:

    Joe-
    You struck a live-wire on this one for sure!! 😀 these responses definitely remind me of the impassioned arguments I get when I confess I’m an agnostic – everybody and his brother hellbent on converting me to their particular brand of religious “truth”, like any of them have actually been there!

    I’m with you Joe. Much as I would like to believe, the science of the distances involved is extremely challenging and the paucity of credible evidence underscores the fragility of “true believers” case. That and it defies all reason that a life force of such intelligence would go to all that trouble to travel so very far, then keep itself a secret.

    Conspiracies are great fun, but reality is often considerably more mundane and boring.

  54. Tommo says:

    My bad. Wikipedia says the interstellar cruise speed of an Orion is ~ 0.1 C. I don’t recall enough specific-impulse calculations to verify, and I am too lazy to go swot ’em up. There is also a theoretical descendant of the Orion called a Mini-Mag Orion; these use magnetic confinement of fissile material and cannot be surface launched. I’d just as soon take a chem rocket or a Beanstalk to orbit, thank you VERY kindly.

  55. Tommo says:

    Oh, my word. It’s all so clear to me now.

    We are test subjects in a large and not terribly well run simulation of a Quatloozotic Zebleventeen Hand-Um_Thingie device, which is blogged on the Interuniversalnet. These “UFOs” are just a form of comment spamming.

    Of course, if they figure out we are onto them, we’re all toas

  56. glenn says:

    Yes Tommo we are most likely part of some kid’s ant farm. Won’t we all be surprised.

    It is improbable mathematically that earth like planets don’t exist. In fact there are probably many billions of them and almost for certain various life forms have evolved some probably even intelligent.

    To even fathom whether we have been visited takes some perspective. Would you ever try to talk to a cockroach?

    Probably not, in the same respect any life intelligent enough to travel vast distances in space and time wouldn’t probably waste their time talking to us. After all to them we would be nothing more than interstellar cockroaches.

    If they watched one speech by the likes of Barney Frank they probably would fire up their infinite improbability drive and jettison to the next closest solar system.

    In regard to Mitchell he is an American Hero and most likely has the experience and access to information that could shed some light on the topic. The topic must be taken quite seriously because if it is true it could lead to very serious ramifications for the human race both good and bad. But of course anyone that tries to upset the government’s control of information and their tidy little apple cart will most likely be demonized. That is always a clue when someone is on to something. They like to say Mitchell is a nutcase, etc…shameful really. He has done a great service to this country and he should be listened to.

    There are thousands of legitimate eye witnesses trained in observation (pilots, leo’s, military, etc) that have come forward and are coming forward. There is definitely more to this story.

    One individual who is clearly reputable that believes this topic is John Lear, son of the late Bill Lear (inventor of the Lear Jet, 8-Track, and the first car radio which he named the Motorola). John has over 19,000 hours flying time and performed secret missions for our government, etc…etc…etc…

    Well John is completely convinced of the UFO phenomena. Of course as he gets closer to the truth they attack him as well.

    It would be nice if someone finally did produce the documentation that could prove this. I think most people would rather know the truth then to be spoon feed a bunch of BS.

    Personally I think Ronald Mallett’s work on time travel could lead to some breakthroughs in the area of space/time travel.

  57. horatiox says:

    More than a few right-wing NASA-types revere the mothballed Orion project. With a few billion, and the right thermo-nuclear explosion (and assuming the Astro-knights in the space-ball survive the blast), a small craft could make it to Alpha Centauri in forty years or so, at one tenth the speed of light, leaving only a few dozen Nagasakis in its wake.

    Heinlein-style heroics.

  58. horatiox says:

    No–I consider space exploration/NASA a highly inefficient use of resources, though I imagine the rocket-heads may perfect the Orion plans over the next few decades for an unmanned shot, say launched from space (even that would produce a great deal of radioactive waste). I doubt humans could withstand the g’s from the blast.

  59. JoeDuck says:

    As much as I like the idea of exploring space I’d agree with you Horatiox that it’s hard to defend as efficient use of limited resources until you invoke the Trek mantra of going where no one has gone before. I didn’t realize how much work had been done along the Orion lines, and I’d admit this undermines a piece of my argument about aliens not visiting – the technology to visit earth from a far distance is not as advanced or time prohibitive as I was thinking.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)

  60. JoeDuck says:

    RE: Hellyur’s talk: In November 2005, he accused U.S. President George W. Bush of plotting an “Intergalactic War”. The former deputy prime minister told an audience at the University of Toronto: “The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens …

    … and I suppose Obama will bury this project? Alternative view = crackpottery.

  61. Andrew Wilson says:

    I agree that the chances of intelligent life on other planets is pretty high. However, I think that in the “busier” parts of the galaxy the chances are lower.

    On earth, evolution has taken place without much interruption from asteroids etc… (apart from the odd one). If we were in a busier part of the galaxy, I suspect that we would have had for more clashes with various objects and therefore, evolution would have been interrupted a lot more often.

  62. JoeDuck says:

    Center of Galaxy may be inhospitable to life:

    http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/environments/articles/frequent-starbursts-sterilize-center-milky-way

    Of course there are still tens of billions of stars outside of the areas that may have “too much” stellar activity for the evolution of “smart” life.

    Ultimately I think it’s mistaken to ask “gee, how could amazing molecular structures like us come to be?” rather than assume we are nothing all that special and the only trick is to *find* the other needles in the very large galactic/universal haystack.

  63. Tommo says:

    You are referring to the “weak anthropic principle:”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

  64. Peter says:

    I agree with the author of this post.
    And in my opinion, the believe in visitors from out of space is just a modern myth. ET’s are like modern gods: they are watching us and sometimes, they come down to earth.

  65. JoeDuck says:

    You are referring to the “weak anthropic principle:”

    I’m certainly not doing that intentionally since I basically find the WAP stuff “over thinking” or even pretty weird when Tipler starts talking about cosmology. I just see simple extensions of well understood principles of physics and chemistry that lead to more complicated (yet pretty well understood) biological structures AKA “us earthling homies”. Combine this with the recent finding that there are likely a “lot” of planets and one reasonably assumes … we are not alone, though we may be wall flowers at the galactic party due to our lack of intelligence and distance from other planets.

  66. horatiox says:

    The anthropic principle (weak or strong) looks something like the intelligent Design argument (sort of the physicist’s version of ID, rather than the biochemists), and for that reason, should be viewed with some skepticism. The earth does appear to be equipped for human life (say the atmosphere), and perhaps unique, to some extent; at the same time any supposed Designer (or designers?) also creates black plagues and so forth, and species which go extinct. It’s interesting, but merely an analogy–believers made use of a design analogy, the Watchmaker, a few hundred years ago–and not a necessary argument.

    That said, when and if other planets are found exhibiting earth-like characteristics (there may be one (or more) and only a few hundred light years away…), one might reasonably infer carbon-based life of some sort might be found, tho’ highly unlikely it will be the little green men of bad sci-fi ala Star Trek. The infatuation with ETs and little green men–or women– (or vulcans, klingons, etc) is due to psychological reasons, if not the usual suburban escapism, really. The alien-craze might be interpreted as a type of fetish, or transference, not altogether benevolent (consider Sgt. Roddenberry’s vulcans as displaced asians. Klingons, perhaps hispanics…, or at least bad guys. The Other, in the jargon of postmodernists)

  67. JoeDuck says:

    Discover has a good article on findings that support the idea there may be many earth-like planets in our galaxy:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/02/18/earths-may-be-common-in-the-galaxy/

    In my view the idea that humans are likely to be unique in the galaxy is nearing unsupportability based on the planet suggestions above, the overwhelming evidence for biological evolution, and the biological findings that show how easily we can get organic molecules from a recipe of inorganic primordial soup + lightning + time.

    The far more interesting questions relate to “how and how soon can we contact others”. As I noted above I very much doubt any human has ever seen any alien yet, but I’m sure we will eventually meet.

    I just hope they aren’t too hungry.

  68. horatiox says:

    Until spacecraft begin to approach the speed of light (I wager a century, or more away), sort of moot, at least from earthlings’ perspective; even approaching the SOL, nearby stars are still monumental distances. Those afflicted with the Star Trek-delusion disorder, of course believe we’ll all be beaming up and away in a few years.

    Hollywood created aliens, really, and a sort of space-opera ethos which has little to do with reality. Unlike the space-opera hacks, the cyberpunk school ala Gibson and Sterling (or earlier gents ala PK Dick, Ballard, even Orwell) did not fall for the rocketman heroics. (es tut mir leid–that might not pass the JD anti-cynicism filter).

  69. Pingback: Of course wea ranot alone in the universe, but for the reasons suggested by most UFO enthusiasts. : We are not alone

  70. rikochet says:

    well, why is it even matter? it is not going to change anything anyway.if there is anything, UFOs will eat us all alive! just like in the movie alien v. predator.

    I believe that we have not reached that point yet. Just like our ancestors were trying to discover what or who god is. soon we will find the answer whether there are intelligent beings out there or not, but not now. we just have to be more advanced, and try to solve our earthly problems so we could reach that point (global warming, wars, HIV, and so on).

  71. The Repto Sapien aliens are very real, having descended from the dinosaurs, like us. They share 98% of our DNA, allowing them to breed hybrids with humans, as recorded in the Bible, and use us as a food resource. Old Testament: NUMBERS 21:6: “And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, and much people of Israel died.” Yes, Earth is their ancestral home world. Think of them as homeboys who made good millions of years ago, having developed or acquired advanced technology that allowed them to explore space and find other planets where they settled the vast majority of their race. They always maintained a foothold here, and there is a lot of historical and archaeological evidence worldwide to this effect.
    Check out my website for more information.
    Check out all the pages on the site. I wrote it like a tabloid newspaper so that I could impress on readers an outline of what has been going on throughout history.

    Here is the information about my book abput them.
    The publisher’s website to order my book is at:

    http://www.booklocker.com/books/1417.html

    Synopsis:
    WARNING reveals a frightening alien agenda, a long-term program of
    social domination and periodic controlled genocide. Mankind is now in
    great danger. We have a terrible problem to overcome. Resolution
    requires international solidarity, then forcible negotiation with the
    aliens.
    Art Greenfield

  72. CyberPh34r says:

    Any american that says they support the troops, but call the very same men liars, are indeed hypocrites. This goes for any other country as well. Support the troops, then you must support these men.

    If one continues to play the liar card, you remain a hypocrite and that one may continue to eat their own words.

    Get on the wagon and support. Hypocrites, F*ck off.

  73. Interesting post, enojyed going over it. cheers.

  74. Why Not says:

    We have come so far since the time of Galileo and I will dare to say that the Sun is still not orbiting around the Earth.

    The UFO debate is very interesting but is dominated by arrogance and emotions. Simply the lack of use of our logic. There can be a lot of reasons why that is, but some obviously reasons could be fear, influence or just because.

    Lets face it; the universe is huge! We could deny it and believe that no one knows anything of anything, but my comment will be based on the ‘knowledge’ that the universe is huge and there are millions of galaxies with billions of planets. So yes, it is absolutely logic to state: Of course we are not alone in the universe. There are intelligent life on other planets.

    But then afterwards state that it is unlikely that any of these beings from other planets would ever have visited planet Earth (despite all the observations, reports and sightings) makes suddenly the first statement hard to believe.

    Lets say there are 100 planets with intelligent life on them. 50 of them have technology to fly in to space, but only 10 have knowledge about space we are just about to comprehend and technology far more advanced than us. And lets say, that they to had the urge to explore the universe back in the days. Found a blue planet in a telescope, compared their data and found that the planet where in the habitable zone. 100 of years later they where able to use wormholes, bend the universe, light up black matter, surf on the stars and visit Earth. Why not? It is not an argument that we are far away in the Milky Way. We do not know what kind of technology is out there. We don’t even KNOW for sure if there even is any other technology. But we can use logic and stop being so arrogant (or afraid?).

    If we had the technology what would stop us from crawl in to a spaceship and travel to Gliese581 g (planet found in 2010) or another Goldilock planet? Nothing. We search for life and habitable planets everyday, why wouldn’t they?

    I do not think you believe in your own statement about life on other planets, because it simply doesn’t make sense when you afterwards write so confident that we haven’t been visited from other planets. I know you sound like a scientist if you say there a life on other planets, but you sound like a babbling new age guru when you say ‘UFO’ or ‘Alien’. Of course you risk public ridicule if you state otherwise, but none the less: If there are intelligent life on other planets there is absolutely a chance/risk/possibility that they have been visited Earth. People have seen them – and it only takes one right!
    .
    Do you believe in life on other planets or do you not?

    • JoeDuck says:

      Thanks for the comment Why Not. I believe it’s *extremely likely* that there’s other intelligent life in our universe, but I think it’s *extremly unlikely* we’ve been visited by t hat life for the reasons I state above. Our civilization is very early on the technological path, so any prospective visitors would have little to learn from us. We’d be interesting to them as “other life”, but the distance to earth from the center of the galaxy – almost certainly where most of the life action is taking place because there are 1000s of times more suns and thus likely tens of thousands more planets in that central region. It’s *possible* aliens have visited earth of course, but the sightings are almost always easy to debunk. UFO folks tend to be smart and gullible, believing what they *want* to believe rather than what is supported by the science, which is “aliens are too far to visit us much if ever”. I’d add that I think it’s very arrogant to assume humans would be of great interest to an advanced civilization – we are really not that impressive when you consider the alternatives.

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