Kim Search discussion page ONE
Kim Search discussion page TWO
Questions for Kati Kim:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/questions-for-kati-kim/
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
Joe Duck 
The Kim Family Search discussion continues below. For the FIRST 1032 comments leading to this page go here: https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/06/james-kim-search/#comments
Thanks Joe.. The load and scroll time was getting a bit long.
So 1000 is your theshold eh Joe…
Think you are right, Glenn, this topic has been wrung out pretty good with the article today and 1000+ (!!!-wow) posts. There are Susan’s remaining questions, but it is hard to say if there is impetus enough for those to be run down by the media. The good news is a lot of hard questions were pursued and the answers brought to light. Almost certainly some good changes will come out of that, and I like to think Susan’s e-mails to the Oregonian played a role. As someone who recreates regularly in the Rogue corridor, I certainly hope some good changes come out of it. So great of Joe to host this site, and so many interesting and thought provoking posts.
Thank you, Joe! Wow, 1000.
Glenn – I think WordPress would have kept going to at least 2000 comments. However the page was about 350k,. A browser can handle a larger files than that but as Spencer noted it was loading somewhat slow even on broadband and it seemed like we should get a clean slate going.
Susan’s e-mails did nothing. Your group did nothing. You came up with no ideas of any value. The Oregonian did all of the reporting and all of the analysis. This forum has been nothing, and I do mean nothing, but a vehicle for you people to congratulate yourselves on how concerned you are, and to engage in your pointless fetish for how the Internet can solve these things. Which it cannot.
Pacman, we that do not even make our true identities known have nothing to gain by doing this. This is about as opposite as egotistical and arrogant as can be. I will never be congratulated for this, GIVE IT A REST!
The Oregonian writers probably found this site as one of the first sources when they did a google search.
Excuse me, but what the hell did you or any of the rest of you contribute? The only thing you’ve done is act as the James Kim Hero Public Relations Volunteer Team. It has been a thoroughly unimpressive performance. If this is the Internet at work, then we ought to go back to beating on rocks.
Your the one with nothing to contribute. I really wish you would go away for the time you had promised.
I am done responding to you.
And you know what’s even worse than telling it like it is about the Kims and the SAR team? In this crowd, the cardinal sin is to tell it like it is about the Internet and about the crowd of Positive Thinking Wannabe Wellwishers. Guess what? They’re still dead, and in the final analysis all of your keyboarding hasn’t made a hill of beans worth of a difference. You haven’t even come up with a single idea that would change anything if it happened again the day after tomorrow.
But I have performed a great service. I have deflected your anger and frustration away from the person in the mirror. Everyone needs a lightning rod, so have at me you impotent fools!
Try it a different way: Someone, anyone, exactly what information did you provide to anyone? Come on, out with it. This ought to be really good.
PacNWer – I have agreed in principle with many of your comments (see some of my earliest posts), but your delivery needs so much work it is beyond pathetic. You seem to have more anger in you than Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski and Osama bin Laden put together.
The only “great service” you have provided is to give every poster on this forum a role model for someone you would never, in a million years, want to be like.
Go back to the Medford forum and spew your blather there, they seem to like you.
PacNWer – I’m confused. You started an excellent, diplomatic, and constructive discussion over at the Mailtribune Forum here: http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1086&st=0
But here at my humble blog you really have an axe to grind, apparently with everybody who has posted something over here – what’s up?
well Frances, maybe glenn was right after all, maybe he does have something to do with it. I cant think of any other reason to be such a….. about people gathering to exchange thoughts, conversation, and ideas.
This has been great to talk to all of you, well most of you, and thanks to our wonderful host Joe.
joe…I am stunned for the very first time todaym (as if today wasn’t full of surprises). thanks for that link.
Simple question: What has any of you added, other than #1 making yourselves feel good and #2 promoting the Internet even though it has been totally useless in this situation? You can do nothing other than attack me, which I think is useful because it will keep you from hurting yourselves. But really: What do you have to show for yourselves?
I have something to show for myself. I’ve boiled it down to the essentials, which is the abdication of personal responsibility. I’ve come up with a specific message to get out to the public that would SAVE LIVES if it were done.
You people have done none of that, and you’ve rejected my message because it focuses on the Kims idiocy and irresponsibility, which you have deemed to cruel for words. So tell oh brilliant ones, what have you done?
Joe – thank you for that link. I about choked. He mentions some of the same ideas tossed around here plus another good idea about radio station info that he didn’t mention here. Interesting.
Read ALL of his posts over there. He’s not always so nice…same M.O. – hits the same topic over and over and over, and then 300 more times just to be thorough, then scathingly ridicules anyone not on the same page. Given, he is a bit more diplomatic at times, but it’s the same ranting and raving.
And I continue to believe he gets his Ya Yas off by getting us to respond to him.
Thank you Joe, for weighing in. He will have some suitably antagonist, belittling response I am certain.
I believe the internet would be a threat to those who want to be the center, the one and only with good ideas. The inernet makes it possible for many of us to talk and come up with good ideas….this must be very hard on the narcissists among us, who believe they are the ones who should be recognized.
really, this is all becoming very clear to me!
Re pakbaby. Probably belts down a few and gets increasingly crusty as the day unfolds. Best option is to ignore such posters. Vigorous dissent is possible while still maintaining a decorum of civility. Discourse with such people is usually utterly pointless.
Just call me the chilly wind that knows no fear or favor. Somebody’s dead, and three others almost bought the farm, because of all these absolutely lame-brain misjudgments and character flaws run rampant in a society that would rather stamp “hero” on them than hurt anyone’s feelings.
James Kim died because he was too irresponsible to turn around on a snowy night, and because some undersheriff wanted to watch a football game rather than pick up the phone. Meanwhile, a bunch of his geek friends mentally masturbated about the Internet while deciding that telling it like it is was too cruel.
I’m telling you, this minor tragedy rather neatly encapsulates a whole lot of problems that we’ve got as a people.
run of the mill sociopath if you ask me, but roy might also be right on with the alcoholic slant too….lol Roy.
Yeah, Frances, I know James Kim is your hero. Bad choice. Try a Marvel comic book. They make more sense.
Thanks mapper and thanks for all the excellent input.
PacNWer – I think it’s too early to know if the type of online environment we’ve talked about over the past few days will help in future cases.
Note that friends of the missing climbers in China now have a blog set up for that distant rescue effort: http://fowlerboskoff.blogspot.com
My thinking is that often people die as much from a lack of quality information flow and lack of good information processing as from the natural hazards. The internet is good at managing information and getting it out fast to people who can process it.
Joe, tried 4 times to post the (now modified) link below, but the post never shows up. Leaving out the ht tp colon doubleslash part to see if it goes through
http://www.adn.com/outdoors/story/8499801p-8393134c.html
Roy did you get an error message? Link and post seems to be OK now. Normally WordPress should take your http:// OR your www. and turn it into a link automatically.
First, it seems there are at least two story lines – and two threads of discussion: 1) what the Kims did and 2) what the searchers did. Would it make sense to discuss these two story lines on two different pages?
In regards to what the Kims did, I think most agree they made several mistakes during the evening of Saturday, November 25, but these mistakes might not have been fatal.
As I questioned before (#353 in previous discussion) and as Roy is now suggesting (#992 in previous discussion), the turning point for the Kims was probably the intersection where NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36 fork. I believe that, in the dark and rain or snow, the Kims never saw the small sign pointing the way to the coast and never heading down NF 23. On this point, I am not convinced that Kati Kim’s memory is accurate when she talks about moving rocks and backing up. Rather I believe, without the gate locked to stop or warn them, they unknowlingly followed BLM 34-8-36 past this intersection and continued on this narrowing and long logging road until they had no opportunity to turn around. I can’t believe that they knowingly went down the wrong road thinking or hoping it would lead to the coast.
Thus, again I question or suggest that the BLM’s failure to lock the gate at that intersection was critical. Had the gate been locked, the Kims might have continued along and up NF-23, perhaps making it to the other side, or perhaps more likely being forced to stop. But NF 23 was searched much sooner than BLM 34-8-36 and it is likely they would have been found sooner. Or perhaps they would have turned around at that critical intersection, where there should be enough room to turn around, and headed back to Galice and to safety for the night.
But I have not seen any of the news reports, including the great report in the recent Oregonian, really resolve this key question.
Do others agree the Kims most likely never went on NF 23?
Could Pacman (I like that – he’s going to gobbel us up – oh – scared – be the unheard of, unknown mystery sherriff?
OK, OK, totally and completely petty & facetious
Joe, posted links previously on your site without problems. Didnt get an error message this time. Looked like the post went through, but it was never on the refreshed page after clicking submit.
Tried to attach it to this post, but once again it didnt show up. Am using IE7. Maybe something distinct to my computer…
Rob Z – clarifying – never went on NF 23 past that junction ? That is an interesting theory. I have not checked to see if the original very lengthy press conference from the Oregon State Police is still up. My memory is that in the conf the officer said Kati Kim said they backed up Bear Camp down to that junction after they could go no further, that that was when James had the door open (so he could see backwards…seems WAY more probable you would have the door open to back up – I’ve been in some incredible snows and never opened the door so I could see FORWARDs as the paper claimed today). I need to listen to that press conf if it is still available.
I have trouble reconciling the version in todays paper with my memory of the account in the press conf….and, in many respects, your theory makes more sense, but Kati Kims account seems to contradict it.
If they went up Bear Camp PAST the junction why wouldn’t they just keep backing down BC instead of going down that junction…unless you had such a bad case of get-there-itis you thought it might ultimately get you to Gold Beach.
RobZ,
I too think its highly unlikely they ever went any further down NF23 than where they veered left at that fork. The two explanations attributed to Kati, namely 1. They went down this road looking for a place to turn around (wildy implausible. Doesnt take 20 miles down a logging road the find a place to turn around, plus they could have easily done a 3 point turn at the wide bear camp/blm road fork) and 2. They wanted to head downhill to get out of the snow (seems implausible, makes much more sense to just drive out the way they came on 23. They knew it also headed downhill and to civilization. Plus in very limited visibility how would they even have known the BLM road went downhill, or wouldnt start climbing steeply around the next bend).
Ive yet to see any plausbile rationale as to why they would drive 20 miles down a logging road unless they didnt realize they’d left 23. Its the only thing that makes sense. To me anyway.
Pac…man I am really holding back here. You have no idea who you are playing with.
In any event…considering the tone and approach of your recent posts we must have hit a home run! You just happen to be on the opposing team and you just lost…I laugh in your general direction.
We busted our butts here and worked directly with Peter Sleeth and got this information out…sorry your life sucks now because of it…but WE WON!
We will make a difference in the long run…PERIOD.
Bye bye
er veered right at the fork. Sorry. Always getting my left/right mixed up. Not the best person to ask for directions.
Roy
Glenn, I’m with Roy on PacNWer, and I know I have said it before and then made the mistake of letting him suck me in again with his vitriol, but I will not again. To quote Roy: “Best option is to ignore such posters. Vigorous dissent is possible while still maintaining a decorum of civility. Discourse with such people is usually utterly pointless.”
Utterly and totally.
It is also possible that they thought they made the wrong turn long after they turned onto the BLM road. Ie they are on the BLM road, but still think they are on the right road, then after it gets narrower and narrower think they probably made a wrong turn at one of the BLM road forks–not realizing their wrong turn was way back at the Bear Camp/BLM fork (They might not even have seen the road going up to the left, the real NF23).
Roy
That just makes so much more sense than any of the other versions (veered right in error at the junction)…
It was the one thing about todays newspaper account I found lacking…they kind of glossed over it.
Roy – sorry but I can only think it’s some quirky WordPress thing that does not like the format. This is supposed to kick it into “moderation” but I don’t have any in the moderation queue at this time.
RobZ if a lot of people say to break this up into separate sections I’m happy to do that, but I hate to make people bounce around that much since all this Kim Search stuff is related. There are now many comments in other posts relating to this discussion so I’m sticking to the “one case/one set of comments” for now.
An alternative could be a threaded discussion forum but that requires logins and in I often get frustrated trying to find and follow related threads.
Rob (33+), I think it is definitely possible that they never went past that junction on NF 23/Bear Camp Rd. There are a few other roads off of 34-8-36 where they may have backed up, and since they were so very lost, I don’t know whether Kati would necessarily be able to say for certain where exactly they were when they backed up, especially if they did think that they were still on that same road – maybe I’m wrong. After seeing pictures of that fork in the road and watching the CNN report about how confusing it is and how small the sign pointing to the coast is (kind of tacked onto the bottom of the larger signs, if I remember correctly), my hunch is that they took that wider turn to the right, not realizing they’d gone off the path. Pure speculation. I don’t think we will ever know for certain.
Ok, PacNWer, show me ONE place where your brilliant message has been gotten out to the public and you’re specific message has been implemented & exactly WHERE you have made ANY difference?
Your pat yourself on the back for something you haven’t accomplished. None here has claimed to have accomplished anything of any great significance.
People are equal here, not a pack of your followers as on the message board Joe linked to.
Is is amazing that you actually talk like a human over there but here represent yourself as as a wild eyed, self absored, self appointed God. Split personality disorder, might have hit on something there…
Ok, admittedly didn’t read all the post – not interested in getting in another message board ( I know this isn’t officially a message board, but blog) & especially not where Pacman is.
Why are you upset the undersherriff was watching a football game instead of doing his job? It was the Kims fault that he was even asked to leave his football game. Geesh, pacman, slipping there a bit aren’t you?
(40)…thanks for your comments Paul…but as we all know Pac is a putz (sorry but you all know it). It is time he is exposed – the article today must have left him speechless and his response tonight is definitely linked to things happening today. Something hit close to home for Pac today and if he continues to post he should come clean so we can really engage in an intelligent conversation.
Pac whatever it is…you are connected to this situation whether it is CNET related, SAR related or maybe you just don’t like the Kim’s for some reason.
Come out from hiding and let us all in on your little game.
You know there are people that are putting in their time to improve this horrible situation – people should respect that – if you don’t then you must be trying to cover this up.
One last thing Pac…your posts are what drive me to want the truth to come out even more. So if you think you are deflecting us…for me anyway you are fueling me to go further.
Na, Pacman. I much perfer Barbies – she’s done everything in the world, has everything in the world but doesn’t have a brain in her head. Now THAT’s a real hero!!
PacNwer – It is a free country – is it not? A lot of
good ideas have been generated and discussed here. If you don’t like it, don’t participate. It sounds like this is just a source of frustration for you. You seem to have a short fuse and little tolerance for other views.
We have a lot. We don’t hate you – but if you feel attacked
you must realize that you tend to attack first. You can call us all the things you want, trying to satisfy yourself with your cleverness. But it is futile my friend, or foe – take your pick.
You seem to have a fetish for condemnation. I kind of
feel for you… But it is of your own choosing. Personal
responsibility as you like to refer to it. This isn’t
an argument you’re going to win, or can win. This is bigger
than just an argument. So if that is your aspiration again –
you will not achieve your desire.
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead …
We are not out to change the whole world, but we are here
to discuss these issues. And who is to say what might
ultimately come from it…
RE: 33
Is Bear Camp NF 23 from the beginning, or does that begin
at the fork – I have not seen those maps.
From all the reports I’ve read they took Bear Camp to the
fork and continued on BLM 34-8-36.
I think actually that one of Sara R’s mislead assumptions
was that they would have been on Bear Camp Rd. because
they would have seen the sign to the coast.In the article she says that is what she feels the most guilty about – not realizing that they wouldn’t have seen it because it was snowing.
Lisa, from the exit off I-5, it’s Galice Rd, which turns into BLM Road 34-8-36, but then turns into FS 23. The Kim’s basically continued on 34-8-36 to get to where the car was found (whether they went down FS 23, the actual continuation of Bear Camp Road, at all is the question), which is no longer Bear Camp Road. I know, confusing, huh?
Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Camp_Road
RE: 48
Thanks Maggie!
After saying that, I wonder if the actual “Bear Camp Road” portion is commonly referred to only as the FS 23 portion after finding this:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2005/0602/sport/stories/03sport.htm
Still, 34-8-36 starts well prior to where it meets FS 23, and the fork to the right is still 34-8-36. FS 23 heads more straight and eventually gets to the coast.
RE: 50
Thanks for that too! I wonder why the numbers work that way.
Maybe it’s because the Forest Service boundaries are near
the fork. Anyway, I have to call it a night!
Maggie I don’t think there is a “standard convention” for naming the roads up there even by BLM and USFS. I think the raft guide services use “Bear Camp” to mean the whole route from Galice to Gold Beach. Locally people generally talk about the “Bear Camp” route as the combination of roads from Merlin to Galice to Agness to Gold Beach which includes the Merlin to Galice Road, BLM 34-8-36 NF23, and I think NF 33 as well.
Re #33 (and #35-37, 39, 41-43, 45, 48-50): Just to be explicit, I believe there is plenty of blame to go around: 1) BLM could have locked the gate on November 1, as they were supposed to have done. 2) The Kims could have avoided getting into the situation they got themselves into. 3) The SAR could have been conducted better.
Of course, our purpose isn’t to assign blame but to understand what wrong so as to better avoid a similar situation in the future. In the case of the Kims, I think they would have had a better chance of correcting their earlier mistakes if BLM hadn’t made its mistake.
But, for now, my sense is just speculation. I’d like to read the media reports of what Kati said more carefully, and also study the elevation profile of the roads to see where the road goes up and down. In particular, Kati’s comment that they went a particular way to get to a lower elevation doesn’t necessarily make sense. If it was dark, and raining or snowing, they couldn’t see more than a hundred yards or so, if that, to tell if a road went up or down. I think the only way to know whether a particular road continued up or down was to drive it.
Paul (#43): Yes, even the recent Oregonian article didn’t really address the fork in the road. I’d like to email them to see if they know more than they wrote.
Thanks, Joe. That was how I first understood it until I ran across the mailtribune.com article – in any case, definitely can see how it can be confusing. Thank you for clarifying!
I can’t speak to what the BLM fork does as I have never been down it, but I can verify the Wikipedia description as accurate. Bear Camp, as I have always known it, climbs fairly quickly after you leave the Rogue river. It winds past some houses after leaving the Rogue, then climbs at a steep and fairly consistent pace until you reach the ridgetop. It is a pretty good climb – elevation at Galice being about 700, Bear Camp Summit is 4500.
Maggie I just read that MailTribune Article you linked and it did seem to have researched the names well. I’m still confused how many people would say “Bear Camp” only means NF23 rather than the whole route.
Joe (#44): It’s your site and I respect your thinking. Maybe it would help for people to include a “subject line” to start each post to help follow the different threads. But maybe it is fine as it is. In any case, splitting the discussion was just a suggestion…
A quick observation on ‘processes’ in the last two sentences of post 28.
The one part of this story which seems to get better with time and multiple news reports, are the actions taken by the employees at EDGE communications. When I first read about their involvement I was struck by the ‘self starting’ nature of those engineers, while marveling at what must be a truly streamlined corporate environment. This organization had far more reasons to fail at disseminating their synergetic information which ultimately was the cause and circumstance for discovering the Kim’s.
They developed an ad hoc process creating information which was accurate and timely. They did this without profit motive, politics, and ego or government mandate. How many can honestly say they work in such an environment? I can hear numerous responses from past and present workplaces; ‘that’s not our concern’ or ‘people are already working on that, don’t you think they know what they are doing?’ or “only George knows how to access that information and he’s on vacation’ finally ‘did you fill out a Form 7765a/1 ?’ the last is a personal favorite.
The greatest information has no value if it is inhibited by faults in the ‘process.’ There is an entire industry devoted to process mapping, development and testing. Although largely overlooked by many organizations or dismissed as ‘we’ve already done that’ a study of the actions taken by EDGE may provide a worthwhile benchmark.
From past posts one can already glean which occupations should require licensing or accreditation versus appointment. I’m assuming the engineers at EDGE were not appointed to their respective positions.
RobZ, I understand what you’re saying regarding the post, but my vote goes with keep it like it is. In each post, most address a variety of topics and it often would be hard to narrow it down to one subject. Yes, to get the understanding of what has been said you have to go back & read a lot & for those of us who’ve been on here for a while, it was getting a bit much to scroll all the way up & down, so it was a good thing Joe did to split it, but I also like that he kept it in the same format. I feel more like it’s a group of people bouncing ideas, thoughts & feelings around as if they were in the same room sharing & brainstorming.
Joe, this is where I got confused back a little earlier. Bear Camp and N23 – for a while I thought they were one & the same.
60 – Navigator, great point about EDGE! I, too, was amazed at how they were able to just take initiative and make it happen and provide quick information. Imagine if everything worked so efficiently…
58 – Frances, I tend to agree with keeping this as is since there are often various subjects in one post, and I find it easier to find everything on one page.
joeduck (#28) you’re right it’s too early. Maybe eventually it will work. Meantime, someone ought to say the truth about it up to now. No pain, no gain.
frances (#29), you don’t seem to understand that a LE professional is always on duty even when off-duty. Taking that phone call was his job. By not taking it, he got someone killed. No excuse. Same deal with the Kims. Female animals take better care of their young than Mrs. Kim did, and male animals do a better job of protecting their young than Mr. Kim did. Dumb and Dumber is this story.
RE: Joe/#56: Can’t speak for other outdoors folks, but in my experience rafters, outfitters and guides have commonly referenced the entire stretch from the turn off just before Galice all the way to Agness as Bear Camp road. Several accounts have also referenced the road the runs from Merlin to Galice as Bear Camp, which I had never heard before. That is a distinct and separate road, the Galice Rd. or also called Merlin/Galice Rd.
The NBC Today program this morning interviewed Peter Sleeth about his Oregonian article. (highlighted by the Oregon State football watching debacle). Matt Lauer had clips from State Police saying they were reviewing procedures, but a nearby County sheriff (who was not on camera) said he thought the Kim search was well run. ( well maybe in his County)
So thanks to anyone here who communicated with Peter Sleeth, it gives him support that he is pursuing a worthy story which hopefully will result in the State Police or even the Governor improving SAR procedures.
For instance, combinations of minimum training, certifications, credentialing for County SAR coordinators could be raised. The thresholds when the State Police take charge of the search could be set or improved. Most Counties probably need no help, and just do fine with the current setup.
The Statewide SAR coordinator should have the Governor’s support to make this happen. I’ll bet the State has a great record for SAR results overall, but something fell apart on this one search. Maybe just a few tweaks are necessary statewide, once the specific leadership problem is fixed. The Mt.Hood search for lost climbers now underway shows how professional a search can be. An amazing, well coordinated, dedicated effort. So the talent is there in abundance.
Some stats: http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/docs/sar/sar_annual_report_2005.pdf
95% of searchs which locate missing people on land are completed within 24 hours. 2005 SAR Report Oregon, Chart, page 53.
Josephine County had about 10 searchs (missions) for Missing Persons, Beacons, + Rescues during 2005. 2005 SAR Report, page 20. (note there is a higher number of 38 but these include 12 training missions, evidence searches, civic stuff, etc.) Unbudgeted expenditures in at least the Josephine County 2005 budget don’t seem to be a problem from the charts. (just $40 for food). The county had an impressive 7200 hours of volunteer work, by the Sheriff’s SAR team, dog handlers, mountain rescuers, etc. Magnificent.
Statewide (2005) SAR Report page 7 + 33, “from the chart, we can see that 86% of all SAR missions ended with all subjects recovered alive.” The subject stayed lost (3%) or was found dead (9%) or multiple (one dead,one alive–1%) or not reported (1%) in the remainder of searches.
Since almost 90% of searches are for Oregon residents, hopefully the very few local residents who do, will complain less about in state/ out of state.
Sunday, December 17, 2006, Oregonian.
“About 730 people got lost or needed rescue in Oregon last year. Only 24 were climbers, and fewer than 12 percent came from out of state.” Susan Nielson in Oregonian. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/susan_nielsen/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166234137153910.xml&coll=7
Also from Susan’s great column, “As far as I know, nobody charges and nobody wants to,” says Georges Kleinbaum, the [Oregon]state search and rescue coordinator. If people worry about getting billed, he explains, they’re more likely to delay calling for help, whether for an injured companion, missing friend or lost child.”
Here is the site for his annual Oregon SAR reports, etc. http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
I hope we hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS. IMHO they need to review signage throughout their inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest intersections and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe they already do something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.
So here is Mr. Georges Kleinbaum public info from his annual report. Hope it is still current.
If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, or critiques of this report, please send them to:
Search and Rescue Coordinator
Oregon Emergency Management
P.O. Box 14370
Salem, OR 97309-5062
You may also contact the State Search and Rescue Coordinator by e-mail at:
gkleinba@oem.state.or.us
63 – Paul, yes, it does look like most current articles refer to it the way you said Galice to Agness – there have been just enough variations (the biggest one being the one that I mentioned finding in post #50 where mailtribune.com article refers to it as only FS 23) to make it a little unclear for those of us not familiar with it. Whatever the locals say is good enough for me – wherever it actually starts, the Kim’s definitely wound up off of it.
Paul I think your’s is the most common usage but reading my own old posts I also made the mistake of implying that the Merlin-Galice Road = Bear Camp Road because I thought they were used interchangeably. I’ve been up to Galice about a dozen times over the years for rafting, further when getting shuttled back from wilderness rafting trips.
Part of the confusion is “Bear Camp Route” which would almost always mean Merlin exit of I-5 to Gold Beach on 101 VS the “Bear Camp Road” which technically is probably ONLY NF23 though I’m still not sure about that.
Google online mapping, I think wrongly, shows a “Bear Camp Road” shooting to the right near junction of the BLM road up from Galice and NF23. There was talk of this as a detour and I’m anxious to get up there in the spring to see the layout and also hike into Big Windy Creek.
Here’s part of the response I got from BLM. The first part of the letter just reiterates what BLM has already told the press. I have to say, that whether the BLM used to close and lock that gate or not, and for whatever reason a BLM employee did not lock it and follow up, the BLM is doing an excellent job of keeping the public informed. And they are looking forward to how improvements can be made.
“In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern
Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of
experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road
#34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to
those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for
future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
roads provide public access.”
Excellent start by BLM and good job by you Susan. Smiles.
glad to hear that susan. But from my thinking, no one has pointed the finger enough at BLM/ National Forest. I think they actually know they should be doing more in that area and it IS their responsibility. I think they must be embarassed and relieved that more people are talking about SAR and Josephine County than them.
I’m very happy either way, that they realize this.
On MSNBC…
Was the search for James Kim mismanaged?
Dec. 18: New details are emerging about the search and rescue operation for the California father and husband, who died trying to find help for his wife and daughters in the Oregon wilderness. NBC’s Jennifer London reports.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??f=00&g=21b85ef0-68e1-41a0-91a5-d4e4a01113f0&p=hotvideo_m_edpicks&t=m5&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16262193/&fg=
Re: #70 If link does not work…
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm
Then select video.
Joe – I will be most interested to hear your account of what the Windy River drainage is like. I’ve done day hikes up several of the drainages from the Rogue (though never Big W.) and they are arduous, to say the least. If we get a permit again I will likely try to go BW, but my impression is you can’t get far before there is a cliff.
Bob H. has disappeared, I was hoping to hear from him how the Oregonian article has resonated in the local community.
ps. susan. my thinking is also that….blm/national forest…well that is what it is….national.
I think we all have a right to weigh in on that. Can you tell me who you contacted/emailed? I wouldnt mind adding my two cents, whether or not they read it.
70 – Thank you for the link, Gayle.
I know that Kati Kim likes to write – so maybe one day
she will write the story and the course of events as she best remembers it. But being that it was dark – and not just dark but ‘up in the mountains dark’ and snowing,
being that they were taken by such surprise at the actual conditions up there, and that it all led up to such trauma -who knows how accurate or detailed her memory witll be. Also, she may not choose to be interviewed or write about it. And I respect whatever choices she makes.
It seems to me that even though there were warning signs –
they thought they were just warning signs, and they didn’t
expect the conditions to be that serious at that time of
year in Southern Oregon.
I read one quote where she said “it just got out of control
on the road.”
72- BLM email is Michael_Campbell@blm.gov
I just emailed him back with Bob H’s suggestion about gates on either end, that say road closed-local traffic only, but it can be driven around, so locals can use it, but others realize there is no thru traffic.
I think BLM has handled themselves well. They reported the vandalism. Then they reported their mistake, that it was not vandalism. And now they are looking into solutions.
It is too bad it was not locked on November 1. But like I have said before, no matter how many gates and signs, and no matter how smart we are, people are people, we make mistakes, we get lost. Someone will get lost there again, according to that article on Sunday, most likely a local, so Josephine county still has a lot of work to do on their coordination and communication.
I agree with you. But no one has mentioned the National Forest at all really, and I do believe they are responsible for maps of that area. I will contact them.
76, Thanks, that reminded me about my idea for the map signs for the logging roads, with the “you are here” dots, I just emailed him that suggestion as well.
A process redesign for the BLM gate near Bear Camp Rd.
Presently, the gate is locked closed on or around 1 Nov. From past posts the lock or locks have been cut so people could gain access during the ‘closed’ season for purposes of hunting, snow mobile riding or cross country skiing, etc.
The before mentioned has failed and seems unnecessary by locals who want to utilize the area during the winter.
Proposal, have the gate locked OPEN by the BLM. When it is deemed safe, the gate can be latched in the open position until winter. The gate should be operable by locals wanting to use the area in the winter. This new gate would remain open for approx 30 seconds (allowing one vehicle to pass) before a self closing device, passively returns it to the closed position. A sign on the gate could indicate DEAD END or local traffic only.
From this I’m assuming the people who previously cut through the locked gate would be happier. Additionally assuming, a closed gate was message enough to out of area travelers wishing to proceed to the coast.
This seems like a relatively cheap approach and an easy pilot study for future applications.
yes, and its one of the best ideas, and inexpensive to boot. your right that people will still get lost, but this could help so many people that do, or help them not to get lost.
but, I do beleive we need to contact the national forest specifically, or it would be a joint project between the blm/national forest. I am not completley sure how the two split responsiblities but I know the national forest does mapping or at least provides maps.
sorry, my post (79) is referring to (77)
Great work guys!
I wonder if any changes in the confusing signage at the NF 23 / BLM 34-8-36 junction have been made, YET?
Would seem an imperative, simple, common sense remedial matter but I wouldn’t be surprised if it remains now as before.
Locked gates on public roads restrict the use of those roads to the public who WANT to use them.
If the signs at that junction were large and appropriately positioned a locked gate would not be required.
RE: 85,86 Kip
Hi Kip! I had wanted to thank you for:
797] Much of what I have been thinking and feeling during the unfolding of this tragedy you have expressed very well. . Your passionate and caring nature comes through loud and clear. I am reminded of James. Thanks Lisa.
Comment by Kip | December 16, 2006
I was wondering if you knew James directly or indirectly?
Of course it’s up to you whether you want to say anything
about that or not. I was just curious.
Mostly, I had wanted to thank you, and then I didn’t know if you were still reading.
PacNWer, I was being smart alec & picking at you – of course I know they are always on duty, sheesh…
Kip, I am neutral on gates on roads.
I am most frustrated with the lack of direction there seems to be on that road, and the national forest and blm clearly have responsiblities in that area. Then, when someone gets in trouble up there its up to Josehpine County to act!
I liked Bob’s idea on the gates (seemed very reasonable) but like I said, I’m neutral.
The thing is, it sounds terribly easy to get lost up there, and its not normal to have so little help to travelers, and we are talking about federal land, locals might know their way around but even they have had trouble from what I have read. Come on National Forest and BLM give the people some tools to work with so they dont get into trouble!!!!!!!!!
I mean, look at everyone having trouble even with the roads naming convention!!! This is not good or normal!!! I feel this needs to be addressed by the national forest and blm.
Okay, I have said that enough, thanks for listening.
Check this out, brief but intriguing…looks like they’ve stirred up the hornets nest, i.e. ” Law enforcement agencies that were involved in the search have challenged the article’s claims. ”
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_121806_news_kim_search_debacle_.20ecb8d1.html
#76, if Mrs. Kim likes to write, then let’s hope she likes to write the truth. “It just got out of control out there?” Sorry, not good enough. That woman’s got some explaining to do:
1. Were they aware of the winter storm forecast?
2. They had lived in Eugene. Were they aware of the standard routes to the coast? Did they ever intend to take Hwy. 42 or were they set on Bear Camp Road as a shortcut even before they “missed” the Hwy. 42 exit?
3. They had brunch in Portland but didn’t get to Roseburg until 8 p.m. even though it’s a three-hour drive there. What took them so long?
4. There was a rain/snow mix falling when they ignored the first warning sign. Snow was falling when they ignored the next two warning signs. Why did they keep going?
5. Were they so focused on getting to that resort in Gold Beach that they allowed themselves to ignore obvious warnings?
6. They used an ODOT map, and you can’t see Bear Camp Road on that map without spotting the warning label, “This route closed in winter.” What did they think about the warning?
7. When did they get gas that day?
8. They didn’t even have rain clothing let alone snow clothing. They had lived in Eugene for several years. Come on, what’s up with that?
9. As they ignored all these warnings, did they never think about their two children? Mr. Kim was 35 years old and she is 30 years old. They are allegedly “brilliant,” and they are not a couple of kids.
So, Mrs. Kim, do write. And do tell the truth. Thank you!
86, I agree, Bob’s suggestion that there are gates at both ends of Bear Camp Road, they say no thru traffic, but they only close one lane, so you can drive around them for local traffic. Add to that those map signs with the little red dots, for the locals that get lost or the tourists that ignore the closed gates and then get lost.
To the extent that improvements are made to Bear Camp Rd., government entities — the BLM, probably — might wind up assuming a bunch of liabilities implied by treating Bear Camp differently than other roads. This begs the question of whether or not to improve Bear Camp Rd into a state highway equivalent to Hwy. 38 or Hwy. 42.
Of course, you’d wind up with a state highway running between two wilderness areas. But it would do much to assure that future clueless travelers wouldn’t be stranded, because it would be better marked, have smoother grades and better maintenance.
This might be the answer: Rip up some of the last remaining wilderness so as not to endanger any more brilliant people.
Lisa, Hello! you ask if I knew James? .. no, not much more than I know you but sometimes that’s enough for essences to sparkle through
Susan – re:91 – The road is only one lane.. If you gate one lane, the road is fully gated 🙂
I’ve said this before, there are side access roads that could meet Bear Camp road past the gate.. You don’t even have to lock the gate if one is installed, just engineer a way to make sure it self closes. There is a 2 mile stretch about 8 miles from galice where the road really starts the climb to Bear Camp – those 2 miles are almost a 10% grade. I’d say a gate at the bottom of this would make sense.
People can take side roads to detour back around (just a couple miles of detour) or gate the road and have a 10″ wide space to go around. The presense of the gate will prevent the unwary people trying to go to the coast but people willing and capable to navigate can still get through.
There are more than a few less remote, less dangerous roads in the state that are gated – the only access is made available by foot/ski or snowmobile.
RE: 95
That sounds like a good idea.
#94, I couldn’t care less what they ate or how many times they stopped to go to the bathroom. I don’t think it’s a crime that they were late getting to Roseburg. It’s probably the least important of my questions, but the answer would help round out the picture.
Knowing where they were going is a big issue, and several of my questions bear on it. If they packed for the moment, there’s no crime in that, either, but they sure as hell had no business on a snowy mountain road in a storm that any fool had to have seen right outside the car windows.
In fact, James Kim had to open his car door to be able to drive. Wouldn’t you think that he’d have known is was “winter?” I am not one bit forgiving of the undersheriff who failed to answer his phone during a football game, nor am I inclined to be too forgiving to the Kims.
One mistake or two mistakes, okay. But those people racked up a very long list of misjudgments that, when taken together, constitute negligence and gross irresponsibility. The SAR team should have gotten them out of there, but they should have never been there in the first place.
And yes, if people are going to be as stupid as the Kims were, then they’d be better off staying home.
Also, Re: 93
Thanks Kip! That’s true – I love that!
PacNWer – I think your name should be “packin grrrrr”…
But really are you able to discuss these issues without
insulting people?
Why do you do it? Why does it interest you?
Pac, how about if we say you are right, the Kims made mistakes, no one on this forum has done a single thing to solve or improve the situation, we are just here to make ourselves feel better. You won. Now please move along and start your next fight elsewhere.
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the sheriff for the mount hood rescue states that the state of oregon has given him EVERY RESOURCE AVAILABLE and the US military at his disposal.
I guess it just takes calling…. that doesnt sound like a money thing to me.
As the Kims were so stupid and incompentent, they should’ve just stayed home & never go anywhere.
I know, up to a certain point, it would be helpful to know about the Kims thought process and actions, but there is also a point where it just plain doesn’t matter. How about how many times they stopped to go to the restroom, they took too long eating, they ate the wrong things – knowing they were going to be traveling…etc. etc.
When you travel with two little kids, especially one being a baby, there are certain things which you are must take, these things take up a lot of room, abiet, rain coats, etc. don’t take up much room. Also, some people pack for unforseen and some pack just for the moment. This is the difference in people. And don’t even go into the unprepared stuff, that has been covered over & over.
RE: 89
Thanks Paul, that’s interesting. It sounded
like the article really got it right. I wonder
what the law enforcement protests are.
89-Paul, thank you for the link. Interesting. I’m curious, too, where LE believes the article is incorrect. It definitely did seem to explain quite a bit and match up well from what we know. Once again, if they do have a different side of the story to tell, I’d sure love to hear it – maybe that article will prompt them to do so (but probably not).
Re: 102 Tara
That’s true. I do remember hearing the undersherriff
saying in one of the press conferences that ‘we don’t have
a lot of money here in Josephine County’- making it sound
like that was one of the reasons why they weren’t doing
more. So, I don’t know – maybe they didn’t realize what
resources could really be at their disposal? I know that
almost seems to give them too much of an excuse for not doing more. Sara R definitely didn’t call in those heat seeking helicopters.
I wonder why she didn’t. I guess at that point she wasn’t
convinced they were stranded in the area? And thought she might look foolish for requesting such a large operation?
I e-mailed the link to yesterdays Oregonian article to the reporters at the San Fran Chronicle who wrote the 12/10 article. Bigger paper, in theory more resources to investigate with, lots of local interest down there, you would think they would want to know more, but I have not heard back yet.
The [i]San Francisco Chronicle[/i] is a good choice for you, because they’ve fully bought into the James Kim, American Hero line and therefore will be happy to ignore the Kim family’s irresponsibility while magnifying that of the SAR managers.
Lisa – the only reference Anderson made to “not being a wealthy county” was in response to the question “why doesn’t Josephine County have any copters up.” They don’t have helicopters period. That doesn’t excuse not utilizing the military birds in a timely manner (as the Oregonian article alleged) but he wasn’t making an excuse for their efforts.
Going back to the football game/phone call thing.. I wonder what the expectation of an “undersheriff” is to be available for calls on their day off. I’m somewhat sympathetic to allowing law enforcement officers days off where they are 100% free from the stress of work – it’s a stressful job – I believe the demands of the job require uninterrupted time off. The Oregon Live article doesn’t shed a good light on him there.
105-Lisa, that’s one that I really wonder about, too, the Natl Guard helicopters just sitting there in Salem for two nights waiting for the call that Sarah Rubrecht never made, even though they were actively searching in that area by then. Was there something wrong with the flow of information so that Sarah Rubrecht didn’t receive it, such as the report from the couple who was not able to complete their assignment to check that road where tire tracks (and bear tracks) were seen? Did she have info but just not know that the Natl Guard heat-seeking helicopters were available to her (though Curry County seemed to know and did use them)? If that’s the case, did her boss, Brian Anderson also not know that they were available? Or his boss? Again, questions I doubt will ever be answered, but just that piece alone is plenty damning and says a lot about how screwed up the supposed “coordination” was.
108-Spencer, I wondered that, too, about the day off. It’s kind of like Detective Weinstein of Portland Police being out sick the day – I do think that all people need to have their days to be sick or watch a game, but someone else needs to be available to respond in their absence – considering these are life and death issues. What about Brian Anderson’s boss, presumably the sheriff? Or even someone else superior to Rubrecht? Nobody dies if I’m not at my desk, but we still have people cover in others’ absences.
Sorry, not takin’ the bait PacMan.
As a lifelong resident of the Northwest who is proud of the largely warm, friendly and humanitarian spirit of those who live here, I think your chosen name is an insult to the region.
(62) putz
(90) putz
(92) putz
(97) putz
(100) susan why don’t we just call him a putz?
(107) putz
Hey putz enough of your useless comments and insults. Give it up already. Why don’t you just pour yourself a nice tall glass of STFU and go back “Observing”.
108-Spencer, here’s where the Oregonian did show Anderson in a more sympathetic light:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1165652726218920.xml&coll=7&thispage=1
I was a little surprised by the difference between the older article and the one on Sunday in terms of how each portrayed Anderson.
(102) yes…all it would have taken was a phone call. Maybe Sara R. thought whomever she would have to call would be busy watching a game or something and wouldn’t answer the phone!
(112) Different report perspectives…it is good that the reporters in the same paper can have different views…not something you would see out the NY Times…
(109) Maggie it borders on criminal negligence…
Re: 106 Paul
That’s a great idea Paul! I would think they
would be very interested, because there was
so much interest in the story down there.
Re: 108 Spencer
Thanks for clarifying the context of that quote.
I still think when such a big case is going on – an
emergency – a crisis search and rescue – all Law
Enforcement should be available for communications. Even more so because it was his last week. It’s not like he was far from a break. It just sounds like a very selfish incompetent un-sherriff-like thing to do.
One of the real questions I have, that again can’t be
proven but I would like to hear explanations of, is why
there were hotspots in the drainage Monday night, and
when they went to them Tuesday they found a trail of clothes, but then they’re guessing he died Monday?
How do you explain that?
116: Bears or Deer – either one would leave a heat signature that could easily be interpreted as a man, and there are plenty of both in the Rogue River Wilderness. It would not be unusual in the least for either animal to go sniff at the left items, thinking there might be food. Both are aclimatized to humans from all the rafters/kayakers on the Rogue River.
I just can’t see him surviving longer than 2 nights, the coroner speculated the same, and that is meant with no disrespect to him or his effort in any way.
Who is the SHERIFF?
Re #33+: I emailed Oregonian reporter Peter Sleeth to ask: “What exactly did the Kims do at the intersection where BLM 34-8-36 and NF 23 fork? … In your investigative reporting, did you learn anything that might shed light on just what they Kims did (and knew) at this critical fork?”
He replied: “I cannot tell you the answer to that, as only Kati Kim knows, and she is not talking. My hunch is they simply took the right instead of the left at the Y in the road. I emphasize, however, I do not know.”
EX-SHERIFF DETECTIVE CRASHES INTO HOME, BLAMES FRIEND
http://www.newswithviews.com/Taft/john17.htm
I know this was 2005 but come on.
this just gets better and better.
Southern Oregon Sheriff Tramples Civil Rights Again
he stole a friggin chicken. I dont think the sheriffs department has benn busy or training.
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/05/06/09/worden.htm
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/04/03/29/worden.htm
How is Valdez involved in this story? I know Anderson is, but …
hes the previous sheriff…. he had to be responsible for training in some manner
testifies to the organization of the department
Um… eh hem. Excuse me, Frances. But I’m from the Medford forum, and I am not included in “a pack of your followers as on the message board Joe linked to.” That was pretty rude. I have a mind of my own, and you should not lump over 1,000 people at Medford forum into one group. I believe that would be “over-generalization”. Thank you.
Re: 117,118 Paul
Yes, I hadn’t thought that the animals would want
to sniff them but that makes sense as a possibility.
Still, there were not hotspots on Tuesday.
It would be really informative if we could get the
perspective of some of the ground searchers,
like the Oregon Mountain Rescuers. I would
like to know what the strategy was.
Thanks, I know you meant no disrespect. I still just
think it was Tuesday. And although I’m not basing that
on what the first responder said – the fact that it looked
like it hadn’t been that long, could be significant.
It’s just frustrating because there were so many missed
opportunities to find them earlier.
Okay- clarification Valdez- I dont know he previously worked in the sheriff department. The sheriff involved in both of those ridiculous news stories (link above) is
Sheriff David H. Daniel. On the Josephine COunty Website David Daniel is listed as Sheriff. It is possible he resigned as it appears theres alot of controversy surrounding him. One website calls him a liability to the state of oregon for mishandleing the department.
Sorry I got sidetracked on this…. I really wanted to know who was sheriff and man I got more than I bargained for.
okay this is it. Ill stop… but IF he is still sheriff:
“GRANTS PASS, Oregon — What do you do if you’re the sheriff of Josephine County and your budget is being cut due to an economic recession? If you’re David H. Daniel, you remodel your office; it’s good therapy for the blues. That’s right, you get new wallpaper and have a custom made desk and get new furniture. It cost this reporter $18.61 in cash to ferret out his information from a reluctant sheriff. It took a sheriff’s office employee one-hour to pull three invoices out of a file. One hour to find three invoices? The remodeling of Daniel’s office cost taxpayers $2,962. Daniel had so much fun spending this money he also had the Cave Junction office remodeled for $660. The total costs were $3,622. If Dave were a good steward of taxpayers’ money during this time of economic recession, he could have bought a nice oak desk at a county auction. There were reportedly several of these desks that went for $6 dollars each. Daniel gave his used furniture to a struggling deputy district attorney. Interestingly, the furniture was good enough for someone else but not good enough for Daniel. Daniel is often referred to as the million-dollar sheriff. “
Tara you should be a detective…you find anything and everything 🙂
Giddy up!
Re: 129
No – that’s interesting Tara – investigational research
can be very helpful. And that would make sense why there
hasn’t been an official sheriff.
A little Josephine County Sheriff history…
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=121
Josephine County SAR info…
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
2006 Jospehine County Election results… Anderson lost to Gil Gibertson, and David Daniel did not run.
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/page.asp?navid=185
BTW, I am not the ‘Gayle’ married to David Daniel that I read about in his history page at the Sheriff’s website. 🙂
Re: 133-136
Very interesting. Thanks, Gayle!
ALright… my guess is that David Daniel resigned and Gil Gibertson’s term hasnt started yet (or Anderson wouldnt have been there) and Anderson must have been acting sheriff??
So, glenn (#111), did you learn a new swear word today? 🙂
D.H. (#127) you mean you’re not my “follower?” I’m just crushed, I’ll tell ya! 🙂
tara (#130), what possible difference does it make if some sheriff’s office got remodeled? Is that what you call using the resources of the Internet to aid in SAR?
packrash, no one suggested turning bear camp into a state highway, and I definitley didn’t beg the question, or hope for you to beg the question, answer it, and cry about it all at once.
Asking for better signage and maps of the national forest and blm in that area, is in line, in that most of the federal areas I have been to, well, I made it out alive, and as you can tell, I am not that smart. So they must be doing something right with signage and maps in most federal areas.
Tara,
(139) No actually PacNWer u said u were going to stay away for a week…u didn’t…guess we just can’t trust much of what u say.
Since you brought up post (130) I think all of the expenditures during the last 5 years should be audited. Maybe some of the money could have been better spent on preparing the organization to do what it is supposed to do…who knows what they could find?
Pretty much everyone involved in this thread wants to fix the obvious problems in JC so that no one else has to loose their life. You are the only one that I see here that wants to deflect the issue – you are connected to the problem somehow and instead of fixing it you want everyone to assume the role of an ostrich – just stick our heads in the ground.
Well we are sticking all of our heads into the details and we are peeling back this onion and every day more and more sees the day of light. God willing someone with some real leadership will step up in JC and fix what is broken.
thanks for the links, sorry hit submit too fast. see, I’m such an IDIOT!
(140) – make bear camp into a toll road. that way there is a record of everyone that goes in…on the opposite side you can reconcile their ticked and all the money can go to SAR.
It would even create a couple more jobs!
now were putting our heads together glenn! toll road, I like it. Maybe an elevated oasis with a mcdonalds and starbucks right in the middle too.
Maybe a gas station with maps….
Frances I am not sure about the days, but I know she said they burned one, and then they burned all three at once to try to make a lot of smoke.
An interesting article about Undersheriff Anderson… May give some insight to his attitude.
Click to access usobserver-issue14.pdf
More on the Sheriff and Undersheriff…
http://www.usobserver.com/archive/may-06/anderson-complaint.html
I hope Kati writes her thoughts specifically to you P-fed and I hope she is not bound like we are to shreds of respect, to keep ourselves somewhat inline because we are participating in someones blog, not unlike uninvited guests. I’ve got a pretty good idea glenn knows a few more swear words…
I hope Kati tells you exactly what she was and is thinking, if she is ever to read the things you have written and assumed about her and her family.
She owes you no explanation, of anything, ever. period. Who is she accountable to here? NO ONE. Time to accept it and move on with your life.
I had not read this article until tonight… Covers the Kim story with tidbits of info I had not read elsewhere.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003470308_ordeal10.html
Gayle.
thanks. wow. geez.they had no idea how to handle this situation.
Gayle (150)
that paints a different picture entirely.
Re: 148
Wow! Thanks Gayle! Talk about dysfunction and incompetence!
I didn’t have a good feeling about Brian Anderson when
I saw him at the press conferences. It just seemed to me
that he had some real integrity issues. And now here is
proof…
hey- was it a sar team that first spotted james or a local?
(146) maybe a gas station with everyone saying…Don’t take this road, don’t take this road!!! Were all gonna die!!!
(150-152) Gayle and Tara you guys should start a detective agency.
And Tara don’t worry even though Gayles “claims” she isn’t Daniel’s wife…she will be an asset in the investigation 🙂
(154) Chopper jock hired by Mr Kim spotted James Kim’s body.
LOL, Glenn (#157). Tara, whaddya think, do you want to try a little Cagney & Lacey? Just kidding. 🙂
(155) Oh yeah…scratch that one…everyone should already know that about these roads that look nice and comfy on a map. Just a bunch idiots with cruise control on and looking for the next starbucks!
your right glenn, people need to be alert and slowing down as much as possible up there, I propose 5 starbuck’s one for every 10 miles, as soon as they convert it to a toll road.
Parting Comments Riding into the Western Sunset…
All you pukes sound like a bunch of airhead Californians except for my buddies PacNWer and Observer.
God bless America! This is the land where you stand on yer own two feet and take responsibility for your actions and if yer do somethin’ stupid ya don’t blame the guys trying to help. It pains me to think America’s losing its edge and all the Rugged Individualists who built the country for a bunch of low-life gadgeteers who sit on their asses typing and typing and typing. So you think you’re gonna change the world ? Good luck.
And don’t you tenderfeet go drivin’ on no mountain road in the winter when you don’t know your ass from a hole in the ground !!!
we need detectives on our fancy internet team!!!!
Wondering question – I won’t have time to go back and re-read all post until later in the week, so maybe some of you can help me remember as there’s just so much infomation.
When did the first helicopters get up in the air? Did I read somewhere that it was Friday that Katie said they burned their last tire? Isn’t smoke from a tire fire very visible? I remember as a kid, we used to burn tires for heat & light when we were sleigh riding (one night my brother got a sleigh runner right through his thigh – opps, we shouldn’t have been sleigh riding, especially at night -irresponsible) & the smoke which came from those tire fires was massive.
Gold Beach, OR, citizens have tried to correct problems on Bear Camp Rd…
http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907
Frances,
I think its the kind of thing that might make a person decide to set out on foot.
I havn’t read the article in awhile, but from what I recall, they had heard a helicopter in the distance at that point, but that is it.
Francine (#145), was your brother declared a hero on national TV, or did your parents at some point say, You goofball, what the hell were you doing THAT for?
mapper (#149), given that Kati was one of two adults who, by her gross negligence and irrsponsibility caused a widespread upheaval, I think she owes everyone an explanation. But, in the manner of the selfish rich of California through the years, I’m not going to hold my breath waiting.
Mickey M (#161), I couldn’t have said it better myself. And to the Compassionate Peanut Gallery, I am not Mickey M. I realize you’d like to see conspiracies everywhere, but you really need to put the joint down and go outside for a breath of fresh air every now and then.
Re: 150
Wow! Even that Seattle Times article indirectly shows
how much incomptence there was.
Here is how Anderson characterized a call on Sunday Dec. 3:
“Brian Anderson’s home phone rang before 9 a.m. on Sunday, Dec. 3. It was Sara Rubrecht, county emergency-services manager. “Hey, boss,” Anderson remembers her saying. It looks as if they’ve narrowed the area where that missing family might be.”
Boy that really sounds like two people who are urgently
involved in search and rescue doesn’t it! He doesn’t quote
her directly, but still. And she was referring to the
cell phone information.
Here is something else he said on Sun. Dec. 3rd:
“Up to then, no one had been clearly running the operation. “There was some frustration on the search originally,” Anderson said later, “because there was no clear-cut agency in charge.”
Anderson set up a command post at the Josephine County search-and-rescue headquarters and invited everyone to meet there to pull information together. They ramped up for a full search Monday morning, Dec. 4.”
It just speaks for itself…
(161) your absolutely right…don’t blame the people trying to help…just glad you realize your comments are so amazingly stupid and that you want to accept responsibility and ride off into the sunset.
I find it very interesting that you have been able to create three such distinct personalities you should seek help from someone – hey that can be your next step in accepting responsibility for your issues.
If anyone out there knows Sharon Prow let her know she is my hero! oh no…I said hero….
Hey Glenn, the old Sheriff’s out of work, he has a ton of time on his hands for creating personalities and trying to control public opinion.
Hey glenn, do you have kids? How would you feel if their lovely Uncle Jim Kim and Aunt Kati Kim took them on some backroad during a snowstorm, without the right clothes, without gas and after ignoring a warning on the map and three on signs along the way?
A grizzly bear sow treats her cubs better than Kati Kim treated her babies. Oops, but grizzly bears are stupid. I keep forgetting about the brilliant.
(172) follow the river is old school…the contemporary position is to stay put. That used to be what they preach up until about 12-15 years ago. I don’t anyone can blame James for heading out…I think most of us experienced or not would have done that at that point.
glenn (#172) how about re-writing that: “The ordeal she and her husband put their defenseless children through …”
I think I just figured it out: No one commenting here has kids, or knows anyone who does. You’re all single and in love with nothing but your computers. Kids? Let ’em fend for themselves! Responsibility? That’s for the pre-Internet generation.
Ignore it or else it feeds on antagonism…
yeah, packie your the face of humanity
(174) four kids, three girls and a boy. I am sure all four of them would be pretty sad that Uncle Jim has died but they would all view him as a hero since he died trying to save their lives.
As for me, stuff happens everyday, everywhere and to anybody. No one is immune from this.
I also know if they had an Uncle Paccy they would call him Uncle Putz.
Lisa, I know. But its not going away even when we ignore it. I’ts monday, long day, and if kati ever does read this, I hope she can atleast get a little satisifaction….
Loving Luddites !!!
Hey all you internet junkies … Paleolithic man knew how to start a fire and live in the Ice Ages !
Now all you youngin’s know how to do is sit on yer fat asses and program I-Pods!
You can’t even start a fire to save your ass!
(177) PacNWer your views and attitude most certainly put your children (if you have any) in more danger than the Kim’s ever have.
You really have some serious issues.
but we can spell.
Article… letter to the editor…Oregon’s Criminal Negligence: The Kim Family Tragedy …
http://www.ocnsignal.com/index.html#anews
(scroll down the last item on page)
I’m sorry, I am going back into ignore mode. But I dont know that it will do a thing.
brilliant frances. What’s a lighter? hang on, I’ll google it.
But Glenn…(186) I whole-heartedly agree.
(185) u don’t have a clue, I could out-hike you, out-hunt you, out-raft you, out-climb you and certainly out-camp you. I have kicked ass at everything I have ever done – the internet is just another frontier to conquer.
As for starting fires do you know what a plow is?, a piston?, how about a cord? or maybe even a saw?
And I am not some youngin and my ass isn’t fat and after my third iPod (too bad u didn’t get that right) burnt out I didn’t get another.
Just as a thought I would leave you with…since you can’t learn anything from us techies…did you know you could create fire from a soda can and chocolate bar?
(191) now that one was funny!
Please just go away – what are you some kind of
masochist who likes to make people hate you?
You’ve said the same things over, and over, and over,
and over, and over again.
It’s boring and it’s old. And we don’t agree with
you – so go on your merry old boring same old same old
insulting way.
You like to pick on nice people. Wow – that says a lot
for you and your life.
Look you don’t really get at us – we may respond –
but you really don’t affect us otherwise…
So you’re wasting yourself…
(196) but Lisa I am having fun…oh oh glenn has to go to timeout 🙂
You know Pac and Mickey and Obsolete remind me of that kids song…one of these kids is doing his own thing…
Hey did you guys toture the neighborhood pets when you were younger?
197
We should make an internet site that lists these items as necessary survival gear.
(197) well really you can as long as you have sunlight. Problem with the soda can is the bottom has a brushed finish – will not reflect well. Use the chocolate to polish the bottom of the can and yes it will make it unbelievably smooth and reflective. Since the bottom of the can is concave it will focus the reflection to a point from the center of the bottom of the can (ie. you must hold the can to capture the sun light into the polished bottom of the can)…hold pocket lint or good tinder in the focus point and it will light.
I don’t think the chocolate would taste to good afterward.
quote from PacNWer at his other stompin grounds:
“I thought you were supposed to put the baby in the dryer after microwaving it!”
dont talk to me about mistreating babies. Thats NOT FUNNY.
Re: #183) I also know if they had an Uncle Paccy they would call him Uncle Putz.
Sorry but, Glenn, you crack me up. LOL
#127 – D.H. You’re right, am so sorry. After about four days with nearly no sleep – not because of this but because of my home responsibilites & during free time had no engery to do anything but sit at computer, and yes, being very emotional about this, I’ve made several mistakes I shouldn’t have made & found it proper to apologize on several occassions. Now, after finally getting a good night’s sleep, the article about the mess up
seemes to relieve some of my anger, at least the info is out there and someone is paying attention – I hope I have a better head on me now.
Gayle & Tara & Suan,Robz, Paul, good job!
Spencer, the idea of a gate, but a space on the size just large enough for snow mobiles,etc. but not large enough for a car/truck – have I got that right? That’s sounds like the best idea to me as even a gate that was supposed to shut automatically – well, let’s face it, there are going to be those who prop it to stay open or it could even get hung up in snow, etc.
Glen, yes it does border on criminal negligence especially after reading the link that Gayle provided about the standards for the local SAR’s. It would be interesting to see if in the info they gave about being a SAR unit gave info about what resources are available other than what their immediate SAR unit has.
Regarding time off for sherriff’s cops, etc. Yes, sure they do. But, ESPECIALLY in a small community, during an emergency, it’s still their responsibility.
Now to the lighter side:
Glenn, they’re going to need the income as people are going to be afraid to visit that area as (1)tourist aren’t welcome (2) If you run into trouble, if we’re watching a ball game or don’t feel too well, we can’t help you
Naw, forget gating the road, just gate the community as they want outsiders to stay out!
Hey, ya’ll come to WV – we may be barefooted, toothless hillbillies, but we’ve got snow sking, snow boarding,
http://www.skiingwv.com/
white water rafting, http://www.wvaraft.com/
world known top class hotel,
http://www.greenbrier.com/site/
all the mountains you wanna hike,
bungie jumping off bridges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_Gorge_Bridge
And to beat it all, we welcome & appreciate our tourist.
And lastly but by no means any where near leastly – well yea, maybe so, Pacman, putz.
Do you guys know the compass heading trick with your watch?
This version is for Oregon or anywhere north.
Put a stick in the ground to make a shadow
Put your watch on the ground (analog face none of that techie stuff here) so that the hour hand points toward and inline with the shadow line
Find the mid-point between your hour hand and 12 o’clock and visualize a line from that point through the center of the watch – that line will be a North-South line you can determine your heading from that. If you are a believer of DST then use 1 o’clock instead of 12.
Re: 198 Glenn
You can do what you like of course, but that was my
final comment on the matter and now I am going into
ignore mode.
(203) hee hee…well these guys are a joke and if we don’t make light of it you can’t get through it. I am writing to webster to have their names put into the dictionary as part of the definition of absurd.
a fire starting trick: the last time I was climbing a couple 14ers we camped below tree line and my friends were trying to find a bunch of tiny sticks to get the fire to light… I showed them that it lights EASILY if you use a birds nest. And they are easier to find than you think.
(206) Actually Frances I think every kid should take survival courses. For me it actually started way back in Boy Scouts and the final test for wilderness survival merit badge – blindfolded..led arm to shoulder through deep woods and left for two days. We had flint, two canteens each, and a knife. We simulated a plane crash and had to survive for two days completely on our own. That really started my passion for the outdoors and I have been at it ever since.
Amazing to be able to enjoy what we have in the country but it really demands respect.
I have been quiet to this point but …
Talk about being an internet techy!! Pacy has been busy, busy, busy… posting 108 times to the other forum on the missing family with a total of 207 Total Cumulative Posts on a huge amount of topics.
( 18.2 posts per day / 1.14% of total forum posts ).
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showuser=1645
Included in his posts is this from Mr Responsibilty….
(quote) Reminds me of this fancy radar detector I put in my car. Oh, it worked just fine. BEEEEEEEEEEEEP! A lot of good that did when the Oregon State Police hit me with an instant-on radar. At 92 mph in a 65 zone on I-5. Cost me $380 and that’s not including what the insurance company did to my rates when they found out about the ticket. I wasn’t mad. I figured the state needed the money. (unquote)
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=600
Were there children in the car at the time?
hey where did everybody go? is there anybody out there in the dark?
Hey 209
I don’t give a rat’s ass what you said before, but this is the first time you started to make some sense !!!
But don’t expect the rest of us to idiot-proof every country road and every nook and cranny of what is left of nature for all you arrogant tech pukes.
And like I said before, don’t anyone go on no mountain road unprepared in the winter !!!
Mapper,
we would just burn one at a time and as I said, it made a heck a lot of pure black smoke that traveled nearly straight up. I know wind can affect the direction of smoke, but burning three at once, man that sure had to be one heck of a lot of smoke for no one to see, especially if copters were in the air anywhere near the time before the some could have dissipate.
Mickey M. aka Pacman?
We need our net dectectives on this – Susan, Tara, Gayle, Paul, mapper, get to work guys!
pacnwer
using a hick accent doesnt convince us you are micky mouse.
Just kidding of course, Mickey M. Putz # 2
(212) Tara … i beg to differ…they most certainly are mickey mouse!
Yea, mapper, it’s certainly the type of thing which would make me finally decide to set out on foot, especially given the length of time they were up there.
Also, I’ve always been told – if you get lost in the woods find a creek of some substance or river & follow it, you will eventually find someone living next to it.
Could this be what James was doing?
Regarding hearing from Katie – there’s sure a lot of stuff I hope she doesn’t see, but unfortunately she will. Although I would like to hear from her, I don’t consider it a requirement. The ordeal the woman went through up there, loosing her husband, all the media attention she didn’t seek, doesn’t want and isnt’ used to and right here at Christmas. No I don’t expect to hear from her and hold nothing against her if she never decides to give anyone any reasons, explanation, etc.
Pacman, as my name is Frances and I post as such, all my life those who have thought they were being so ‘cutey’ to call me Francine have all been, guess what…
Putz
121-123 Well, having taken part in a rooster rescue myself, that chicken story is disgusting. I can’t believe they actually killed the chicken.
Frankly, I don’t think biker gangs do poker runs, that’s for us yuppy bikers, poker runs are almost always charity runs. I’ll find out.
(218) us boaters do though!
Hey Puz, I’m a WV hillbilly, I have two dozen. None of my freinds have any as I had I had them all
Lisa, yea, I know and it’s starting to get a bit boring, but just couldn’t help a bit of poking at the mule.
Sure I can start a fire, I take a lighter and a little bit of printer paper…
or over-clock my computer…
213-GLENN, please don’t compare them to good old Mickey Mouse. They don’t hold a candle to him.
222-yes Frances I knew exactly what you meant
Im here and lol. Frances I dont think you have a mean bone in your body.
Glen,
Hey, man this is all, sincerely complete seriousness…
Can you really? How? I’d like to teach my 19 year this as the things she always has
Cell phone
iPod
Soda
Chocolate
229, second that.
sorry glenn, I wasn’t ignoring THAT much, I got a call on what the oldtimers call the telephone. Man those things are annoying! I hate talking to people in real life!
Wow, Gayle, you know how to really find ’em! Lovely place. I have to keep reminding myself of people like Spencer, they guy at Black Bar Lodge, the guy with the ‘copter & all the Burger Kings. Heck, they sound more like WV people.
Im out- my cold medicine got the best of me.
Just my opinion, but I truly think Oblivious, Mickey Mouse and Sou’Wester are distinct and different people.
But I digress – this is escalating into a pissing contest of epic proportions. You want to really infuriate them? IGNORE THEM ! Engaging with them just begets more escalation, more name calling, more taunts and insults and mindless blather. Your giving them what they want, a reaction.
p.s. Sou’Wester – reread my post 476 “as a parent I think having an infant and a 4 year old in the back seat obliges one to a higher standard of caution and care than one would exercise otherwise.” I have 2 young children for the record.
Glen, thanks, printed this out to show my daughter.
Hey PacNWer…do you still have your 93 Turbo Diesel Golf?
Guess we should call you Brian…how long do you think before I find out your last name?
Can I join the detective agency too?
Cagney, Lacey & Glenn 🙂
This is the reply from ODOT (Oregon Dept. of Transportation) giving me an explaination about the web cam map for Oregon. I was asking about a road over near Bend Oregon that had a x on the road in red. It said winter closer. I asked them why this can’t be put on the Bear Camp Road.
Mr. Hollenbeck,
Thanks for your email message. We are looking at ways to clarify the situation for travelers in regard to Bear Camp Road.
It is not an ODOT highway (It belongs to BLM) so we can’t indicate whether it is open or not because ODOT doesn’t make that call – and TripCheck reports only on state highways.
But we are taking a look at all of the light green colored roads on the Web site (these are non-ODOT roads use simply for reference) and determine their value and condition.
Our approach is likely to be taking the line green road representing Bear Camp Road off of TripCheck all together. This should eliminate any confusion as to whether this road is a good option – regardless of the season.
Thanks again for your email and input.
Regards,
Glen Hammer
System Manager
TripCheck.com
Paul we tried to ignore them. And it seemed to me when we gave an inch, let him talk, treated him with respect, he just talked louder and more often, with italics and bold.
But it is getting late so I am done with them. I just read the chicken article…I don’t know what to say about that at all.
Except, some people should be less concerned about how someone from illinois feels about how to spend US tax dollars on federal land, and more about how their local taxes are spent. I have a right to have my say about idiot-proofing those roads.
Bob, you have to read an article/letter posted above by a resident, her name is Sharon Prow I believe, maybe someone will post the link again, as I am not sure anymore which it is.
Thanks Mapper, I would like to read it.
ah, found it
http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907
yes, thanks a lot for e mailing IDOT Bob, that response is very telling.
sorry…hahaha IDOT = illinois DOT…
(243)…yeah Frances – WV…all one big family right?
heh heh…sorry I couldn’t resist; you set it up so beautifully.
236- not Brian Anderson?
Frances, One of my best friends in the Marines was from WV the big Hill Billy. 🙂 just kidding also he was awsome.
Mapper great article. Frances, which article you talking about. I have been out of the loop for awhile.
Frances,
well, they (or he) certainly are outnumbered. Too bad most of us have a little respect and dont say EVERYthing we think. Truly this was not what I would call a contest as I hardly got started, and will not say everything I think.
Glen, I agree and even put my daughter in Girl Scouts. Unfortunately, the local was a joke. But she did get to go camping and used her first out-house. It was soooo funny to hear her reaction to it.
Opps out-house = civilization
Well, now Putz#2 – don’t you’se be hiking your tail into the cities & expect our tax payer dollar’s to save you when you get a flat tire in the middle of the ‘hood.
We only take care of ‘homies
(248) I don’t know the last name yet.
(249) mapper u said “he was” – sorry to hear you lost one of your best friends.
(252) BTW…Frances is a name both M and F used in my family going back for generations.
Had to go for a bit… yea, Glen, if I’ve learned nothing else in the life (according to some I haven’t, gosh who could I be referring to?!) you gotta keep a sense of humor.
91-95 Bob H, I emailed the BLM with your idea about the gates on either side of Bear Camp Road, that you could drive around. Basically saying local traffic only. But then Spencer said those are one lane roads, so how would you drive around?
Yea, Susan, you biker yuppies only do runs for things like the MDA, you’re wimps and worthless.
Thank you for the bikers who make a run for the MDA. Bless you.
(255) pull a Joey Chitwood move and get the car on two wheels and slide on by while grabbing your starbucks at the tollbooth. Pretty simple actually .
They ought to have a gate that you have to manually open and it closes automatically (and yet u can do that without power)
(256) I am deeply wounded now – I understand you should talk to the males in the family with the name Francis…
Susan, after I read that it didn’t read like I mean – you know I was thanking bikers like your, right?
(249) that was Bob. I was never a marine but I did work for the air force (in…california) but with a wonderful person from west virgina as well.
Susan, It’s called a half gate. With a big sign on it with all the particulars. At the start of Bear Camp Road it’s is very wide, plenty of room for a half gate.
I was told there are people working on this idea as we speak.
Hey, Mickey a.k.a. pacman must have a sense of humor – I clicked his link and it goes to the disnes site. Ok, that’s a good one.
Francis, great article in Oregonlive!
I meant Disney. Sorry, Tara, where ever you are I often mis my typos & mis-spellings.
I mean miss, geesh, me.
Good. Thought I’d messed up again. whew.
(261) I hope something gets done and soon!
RE:243 Frances – I can’t speak to tourists and OR (I am a lifelong resident), but there is a definite OR / Calif. issue that goes back decades. Some long-time residents seems to feel that “those Californians” have ruined their state and our now intent on ruining ours. I don’t know if this is more pronounced in Southern Oregon, but given the large influx of CA residents into Medford, Ashland and Grants Pass, it is certainly possible. People want someone to blame, so they blame more traffic congestion; housing prices that have shot up so dramatically that the middle class have been priced out of many portions of the state that used to be very affordable; and all manner of other perceived wrongs on out-of-staters and, specifically, Californians.
The truth is so much more complex than that, and it is simplistic and narrow minded in my opinion to think that way, but plenty of people do.
Pretty sure we’ve got some other Oregonians on this post, they may add, further explain, or disagree as they see fit.
Thanks, Tara – but sure I do – I hate unjustness, self-righteousness, and unfairness or be unkind to my kids.
It’s really not a gate, it will be concreated in the ground on both sides, it will be big. It goes half way accros the road, but still able to drive around it. It will be down at the beginning of the road which is down by the river on the Galice Access Road. This is the main highway down along the river.
Former Governor Tom McCall was infamous for his “visit but don’t stay” comment, and he was governor a long, long time ago (1967-75). He was also the source of much of the land-use planning that has kept Oregon from suffering the same urban sprawl that Seattle, Los Angeles and other large cities suffer from. The first bottle bill in the nation also came into being on his watch.
Like I said this half gate should be on both sides of the mountain, one on the Galice Access Road and one down at Agness. (Coast side)
Later, Tara, I’m going to be pretty soon too, tomorrow’s gonna be a long day, but this has been such a pressure relief as well as always educational.
IF Katie ever reads this or anyone ever tells her about it, I hope she makes if far enough or they include the laughs.
I see from joe’s homepage he went to school in Madison.
susan, maggie, he could be kicking us out of here anyday. I’ll be on my best behavior.
Good night.
So!
268 So!
I have found quite a bit about PacNWer…as for location he is near Eugene. He buys stuff on eBay…and his political views are something else.
I thought he said at some point he lived up in Seattle, but I must be mistaken. I can’t speak to his politics, but his anger level seriously creeps me out (ditto Oblivious and Mickey Mouse). I’m just glad he’s not my neighbor, (but I have good friends in Eugene…maybe they should be worried).
Frances, you may not know this being so far away, but the football team for the Univ of Or in Eugene are The Ducks…inadvertent humor on your part…or maybe not.
(278) I don’t think so…private plane that is. I think PacNWer might be from TN originally. I could be totally wrong but I will piece it together.
One thing that turned up tonight I won’t report but if you want to know then drop me an email…it will make u laugh or just sigh. Not sure which.
(279) Joe plays football too?
277 – Some people thing that way, but they are a minority…some of them are also angry…hmmmmmmmm.
glennforum@yahoo.com
Good job, Bob. Please don’t be offended by my poking fun at Oregon. Goodness knows, WV sure gets made fun of & I could care less. I just felt everyone needed a bit of comic relief.
But in all seriousness, there does seem to be some reality behide some sour attitudes about tourist in Oregon hense the article earlier in the site about this. Can you please give me some, honest serious insight on this?
mapper, I agree, reason or ignoring him only made him worse. The only thing which seems to have an effect is poking at the mule(s).
Yea, my daughter and I keep looking for a T-shirt someone came up with which says WV – it’s all realtive, but because PC (politically correct) got offended, they took them off the market.
Was it Tara who posted it on Sunday right after the main article.
Hey Glenn, I’m a big girl, if you miss a good shot, shame on you!
Bob
Here’s the link to my refference
http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166234137153910.xml?oregonian?yedcsn&coll=7
Personnaly, no offense to your family, but I HATE the name Frances, and yes, it is my real name.
Interesting post from the Listening Post blog:
Sunday, 10 December 2006 – 3:44 PM
Name: shandi
I was lost on that very same road back in August. My mother lives in Cave Junction just outside of Grants Pass. We decided to take a road trip to Gold Coast. I looked at a tourist map (that I obtained for free). It showed the Bear Camp route trough Agness as a “scenic” route.
We drove around those BLM logging roads for almost 5 hours before finally getting out. Thankfully, I had a full tank of gas… and of course it wasn’t snowing.
Why did I get lost? I grew up in the Siskyous and know how easy it is to get off track. Those particular roads are the most confussing I have ever come across. It looks like they were all paved at around the same time. You can’t tell which roads are significant and which ones are logging roads. Some of the logging roads are even wider and have the appearance of being more well traveled. And…. signs… There were some, but not stratigically placed at crossroads. There was a BLM map carved on wood placed at the top of the mountain. It said, “you are here” in one corner. Problem was, it didn’t resemble the tourist map at all. None of these roads were blocked off. I didn’t see any gates, closed or not. Some of the wooden signs were in desperate need of repair and I couldn’t make out some of the town names on them. They also directed you to the same town by going in separate directions.
Someone needs to re-map and re-sign these roads, or this tragedy will happen again. I was completely lost… in the SUMMER.
It insults me when I hear people say that James Kim was ignorant and made mistakes that risked the lives of his family. I’ve been there. It is a very easy mistake to make. One that any of us could have made.
-=-=- end of post.
288 – It IS a very scenic drive…horrible signage to be sure; easy to get lost – absolutely, but real pretty while you’re getting lost.
Glenn, well maybe it’s just the way they say it here in WV…shivers.
Bob, on the half gate, what about it getting blocked open by snow, etc or people proping it always in the open position? I’m not sniping, I seriously want to know. I really know very little about gates and didn’t know you could have a manually/open, auto/close gate with electricity.
I meant without electricity
They are ALL logging roads……….
Does it have a particular name which describes it? I’d like to see what it looks like, out of curiousity.
Wow, Glen, and pacman said that the Kims used live in Eugene… certainly has all the markings of a personnal vendetta,…
If it walks like a duck, talks, like a duck..
Bob, I can understand a wilderness area not wanting to become urban, but to be so harsh and unappreciative of tourist and visitors? Are they really this unfriendly to such?
Well, Glenn, at least I know he lives accross country, but you did make mention of him owning a private plane..
I know NOTHING about football and beleive me it was completely inadvertent.
I meant completely unaware and unintentional. Sorry for keep posting, but mind goind in a bunch of different directins as trying to catch up on some stuff on the computer.
Glen, don’t know where to send e-mail to you.
Anyway, this does seem to be a case of sometimes it takes a national tragedy to correct a local problem which affects more than locals in which the locals won’t/can’t take care of.
Continuing my thinking in #33+, I want to reconstruct what the Kims did on the night of Sat/Sun Nov. 25/26. I plan to do this in two parts: 1) Roseburg to Galice and 2) Galice to where they stopped their car for the night. Following is the first part, based on ODOT, Google and Yahoo maps. I’ll use topo maps to create the second part, as I am interested in just how the road climbs and falls after leaving the Rogue River at Galice. Of course, local knowledge that I lack – I’m from Eugene – will help a lot with the second part.
— Begin Part 1: Roseburg to Galice —
According to Yahoo Maps, it is 139 mile or about 3 hours and 34 minutes from the Denny’s in Roseburg to Gold Beach via Highway 42. Google Maps puts the distance at 133 miles or about 2 hours and 49 minutes via Highway 42. (Google recommends saving a few miles by bypassing Coquille.) Accepting the more conservative Yahoo figure, if the Kims left the Denny’s on Saturday, November 25, at 9 p.m. and had taken Hwy. 42, they could have been in Gold Beach by roughly 12:30 a.m. early Sunday morning.
As it was, the Kims presumably started on the correct route:
1. Head west on West Harvard Ave. toward Exit #124 – go 0.3 mi, 1 min
2. Turn left to merge onto Interstate-5 south – go 4.4 mi, 5 mins
3. Take Exit #119 onto Hwy. 42 toward Winston/Coos Bay …
But just 6 minutes from Denny’s, they missed the Hwy. 42 exit to the coast.
Having missed the exit, their best option would have been to continue another 7 miles south to exit #112 and then follow Dillard Hwy./Hwy. 99 back to Hwy. 42 and the coast. They could have also turned around at any of several exits for Myrtle Creek (#108, #103), Riddle (#101) or Canyonville (#99).
But the official state map produced by ODOT (I have the June 2003 edition) shows a paved road all the way from Grants Pass to Gold Beach via Merlin, Galice and Agness. It is true the map has a small red box with fine red print saying, “This route closed in winter,” but the route otherwise looks like a fine secondary route on the official state map. It is shown on the map as a bold solid black line. In any case, if the Kims thought the road from Galice to Agness was a usable, then at some point south of Roseburg it would have made more sense to continue south rather than turn around.
One can take several Interstate-5 exits to reach Galice: Wolf Creek (#76) or Sunny Valley (#71) provide access from the north; Hugo (#66) or Merlin (#61) provide access from the east. We’ll probably never know which exit they took, and it probably doesn’t matter. But it is most likely that they took exit #66, resulting in the following trip from Denny’s:
1. Head west on West Harvard Ave. toward Exit #124 – go 0.3 mi, 1 min
2. Turn left to merge onto Interstate-5 south – go 57.6 mi, 54 min
3. Take Exit #66 toward Hugo – go 0.3 mi
4. Turn right on Monument Dr. – go 2.2 mi, 4 mins
5. Turn right on Pleasant Valley Rd. – go 2.7 mi, 5 mins
6. Continue on Galice Rd – go 11.4 mi, 18 mins
According to Google Maps, it is 74.5 miles or about 82 minutes from Roseburg to Galice. Thus the Kims likely arrived at the intersection of Galice Rd. and BLM 34-8-36 on the bank of the Rogue River around 10:30 p.m. or perhaps a little before.
According to online sources, there are gas stations at the following exits south of Hwy. 42: Myrtle Creek (#108, #103), Canyonville (#99, #98), Azalea (#88), Barton Rd. (#86), Glendale (#80), Wolf Creek (#76), Sunny Valey (#71), and Merlin (#61). Of course, if one wanted to determine whether and where the Kims purchased gas, credit card records would probably reveal the answer.
— End Part 1: Roseburg to Galice —
Have got to call it a night.
It’s starting to look like a Chat Room around here. Not much content any more, guess the real discussion is done. Will look elsewhere for the serious discussion.
(212) WOW…92MPH. PacNWer what if you hit a car with a family in it? You are completely irresponsible and have complete disregard for those around you.
#1 Danger in Oregon for tourists – BLM roads
#2 PacNWer driving recklessly
How dare you criticize James Kim when you have an irresponsible attitude about driving – you make a car a weapon! Wake up and slow down!
If you want to go fast then invest your money in racing and do it on a track!
Kim Editorial Sums it all up so well:
http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1166487929309700.xml&coll=7
Today’s Oregonlive / Oregonian.
I said it earlier, if you read through all his posts, there is plenty on that other site to make you question if Sou’Wester is playing with a full deck.
D.H. – if you have a meaningful contribution to make or question to ask, by all means do.
(297) Thanks Paul – another good find.
OR-CA, WI-IL, Kiwi-OZ, CAN-US, I think that’s everywhere, and I think the rivalry is pretty one sided. I can tell you most people in IL have no clue what that WI word is they use for us. The only reason I know is my husband is from Milwaukee originally. But I also think the vast majority of people in WI judge us one on one. I never feel uncomfortable WI. And let’s face it, there’s a lot to criticize about a state or country that develops too fast, they make a lot of mistakes. The slower developing country or state should appreciate their neighbor. After all they get to watch the mistakes and learn from them and even avoid some of the same pitfalls. That’s a pretty good deal, learning from a mistake, without having to pay the price of actually making the mistake yourself.
But there are always some exceptions. Some weak people can’t take responsibility for their own situation, so they stereotype and blame others. You can always spot a weak dog, it’s the one snarling and barking and biting. A confident, well adjusted dog, doesn’t feel threatend. It’s actually kind of sad, O-P-MM they talk the talk about being responsible for our own actions, and then blame others for all their problems. My guess, O and M are children or adolescents. With some education, they’ll probably grow into P’s. My guess, P has some very serious unresolved issues with his own parents. Since we don’t know what they did to him to make him turn out this way, we should try to be understanding. Which is not the same thing as letting him stomp all over us. You have to set boundaries with people like that, that’s part of their issue, they never learned from their own parents about setting proper boundaries. But that would explain his attitude about James and Kati Kim’s parenting, it’s not them who he is really mad it.
Still Ann’s advise was best, to ignore them, we are just reinforcing them. They crave negative attention. That’s probably the only attention they had growing up, so they mistake it for love. While it’s quite sad, none of us are going to be able to fix it for them.
As one other poster theorized some time back, the other plausible answer for Sou’Wester is the bottle or some equivalent….at times rationale & reasonable, other times ?…reminds me more than a bit of a few alcoholics I have known – the nicest of people sober, the most horrific when in the cups.
(297) right, Paul, excellent summary, a very good find. I think it’s a very articulate summary of what we have been trying to say on this forum. I love the quote, “Yet in times of crisis, “People don’t rise to the occasion. They default to their training.” “
(301) His recklessness in other parts of his life provide additional evidence to that theory.
Yes, the irony of screaming down the interstate at speeds that would most certainly result in fatalities beyond his own at the same time he criticizes James for imperiling his family. With James K. it was a mistake in judgement…to me purposedy speeding (and were not talking 5 or 10 miles over the limit here folks) is something else altogether.
So what about this. Edit it, spruce it up, flame it, I have no pride of authorship. Need to get Joe’s permission if it is signed with his blog title out of respect for him.
Somebody can send it to National BLM at the Dept of Interior (BLM.gov) and USFS at Dept of Agriculture plus to a local Congressional Office in California and Oregon.
———————-
One of our bloggers received this reply from BLM (Wash-Oregon) about 16 Dec 06:
“In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road #34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
roads provide public access.”
Many of us hope to hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS nation-wide. BLM/USFS needs to review signage throughout your inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest/confusing intersections annually and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe BLM already does something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.
Look at this photo of the intersection on Bear Camp in wet, not snowy weather. It’s obvious what is wrong!
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002
Some of us believe that this could be a systemic problem, because the responsible official at the local BLM did not know about, or if so, they did not put a high priority on it. Or no one listened to their customers, who are all the motorists (local and out of state) who use that intersection. Otherwise we should have heard that the repair of this intersection is in some 5 year budget program.
Here is the recent report of a “local customer” who apparently has been complaining to BLM for years about that intersection. BLM and USFS read this. It is obvious that your customer service is lacking. Many others have complained. A local lodge owner even helped mark the road, which works marginally in dry,clear weather.
http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907
BLM and the USFS could start with the official State maps depicting all routes thru your property and check those routes for similar problems. (Where the road is much more treacherous than it appears on the map.) That would cut out the large number of spur roads for budget reasons. If you saw some self-help, scrawled, painted directions on the dry pavement, like here with the words “Coast” and “Dead End”– seems that’s a clue something is not working.
Our hope is that we don’t get a new sign, ONLY every time someone dies, due in small part to the absence of a sign or gate. We are NOT talking about a big program here, just a system to identify those few places (less than 10) which the current system has failed to find.
Respectfully,
[this was signed “The Joe Duck blog” but removed by editor to avoid confusion]
Scroll down and check out post #766 at the other site – more blame game:
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=760
Re: 300 Susan, 304 Paul
Yes, this is someone who doesn’t have much control of
themselves (at least P is – are you saying P and S may
be the same?) Anyway there’s a lot of the same energies
there amongst all of them, namely anger.
Putting down others is one of the quickest and cheapest
self-esteem tricks in the book, and is behind so many
insults, as well as more serious situations. It’s really
about ignorance and making themselves feel better than
someone else. But it’s cheap, and when you apply yourself
to it full-time, it doesn’t really fufill you, so you
get angrier. At least that seems to be the case here.
Re: 306
Even Swedes and Norwegians do it.
Now you’ve still just got a gossip column going on here. One long attack rag against someone you say doesn’t deserve your attention. By the way, I think many of your assumptions and speculations about Pac are way off.
Lisa, I dont know, I don’t know what his issue is. But your 100% right about one thing, its about him, and no one else. He wants his voice to be heard, and for those who hear it to think its also the best and most worthy of being heard. I dont know if he has enough of a heart that any of this is coming from a bad childhood or low self-esteem. I think he’s just sociopathic, there are some deeper issues and reasons to act this way. We could very well make him our next case/study project after wrapping up what went wrong in the Kim case. We could save P from himself. Maybe.
But everyone says ignore him yet were still talking about him, if not at him. I really dont know that he will stay away no matter what is said or not said by anyone. Like I said, I dont know if this all is going anywhere anymore, but if Kati ever reads it atleast she will know for sure P,O,MM are not winning any popularity contests, and furthermore — She doesn’t owe anyone anything! She has been through hell. Now she doesn’t even have James to protect her and it makes me sick to think of people like Pac pounding on her for answers. That is so sick and wrong, and I hope she knows it, and never ever is made to feel guilty enough by some sociopathic nut that she actually cracks. No one with any decency is expecting an apolgy or explanation from her.
Paul – I was wondering if you could possibly email the
link at 149 – the article about the sheriff and the
undersheriff to those same reporters at the SF Chronicle.
Unfortunately, I don’t know how to email links.
I really think the undersheriff (acting sheriff) was a huge part of this failure. If you read the Seattle Times article
link at 151, you can tell he was just sitting around doing
nothing till he was forced into the hot seat.
And he was Sara R’s superior…
RE 294
Some very nice route analysis. I would like to add a few comments about various internet mapping services and their uses.
Google, Yahoo, MSN do not make their own maps. They provide information from other sources in four (more or less) similar layers.
1. The map displayed is from two primary providers (Navteq and/or Tele-Atlas) this is verified by the license disclaimer on the bottom of the map display.
2. The imagery is derived from government and private agencies. This is a cobbling of satellite (Landsat, Space Imaging, etc) and digitally scanned aerial photographs. This accounts for the variation of resolution and mix of color and black and white imagery. The map from above is displayed as a layer over this imagery.
3. Route optimization software. This could be organic, but many companies provide such a service. This is the program which calculates the directions between two points. Typically they use a road classification hierarchy and a speed category to arrive at a solution.
4. Business Directories/ Phone Directories are used to locate businesses, individuals or any other destination associated with the above layers.
The warning about using NF-23 may be small or difficult to read on the ODOT map, yet I can’t find any such warning associated with the same route using the internet. Although I find these services to be of superb convenience with light speed response, a base axiom remains valid – Travelers beware.
Upon reading Rob Z’s post I could see how one could be lulled into believing the selected route as quite viable (Merlin – Gold Beach) 78 miles and two to three hours time to travel.
Re: 308 DH
I thought you didn’t want to be here in this “chat room.”
Anyway, this really isn’t what I want to be discussing,
But what I said is very true.
Plus, most of it hasn’t been an attack rag – most of it has been on topic. And you can’t compare the mostly constructive or humorous things we have written about this poster – to the abudance of attacks that border on pathology that they have sent to us.
Believe me, we did not begin the attack.
The guys at the Chronicle have yet to respond on my e-mailing them the Sunday Oregonian link…seems futile to send anything more along.
D.H. – doesn’t seem any worse to me than the stuff I see over at the Mail Tribune forum. Why do you care so much? If it bothers you that much, go somewhere else. Seems Oblivious did, and I can’t vouch for others, but I don’t miss him.
It’s a puzzlement…Mickey Mouse and Sou’Wester keep coming back…if you totally disagreed with the content/comments of a given blog and everyone there aggravated you, why would you keep coming back except to fish for some kind of reaction because you got your Ya Yas off that way?
And that’s not to say contentiousness and disagreement are a bad thing…you don’t want to fall prey to group think…but I think there has been a fair amount of disssension and disagreement amongst quite a few of us at various times, but it has been infinitely more civil & respectful than those 3.
On map quest I requested directions from Sunny Valley (north of grants pass on I5) to gold beach and requested that seasonally closed roads not be shown. Bear camp route was the route suggested.
(306), No I think they are three different people. I think O is a child or an adolescent. I think M is an adult, but with very little or poor education, but possibly somewhat self taught. He seems to have a bit of poetic talent as well. And I think P is an adult and well educated. But sadly I think all three had similar parenting. Constant criticism at best, if not some more serious form of neglect or abuse. I have yet to meet a bully that was not using that as a defensive mechanism to cover up a coward.
glenn, better be careful about your amateur sleuthing. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, you’ve posted about my alleged identity is even remotely accurate. I’m telling you this in case you should publish the name and address of someone who is absolutely unconnected with me and they should want to pursue you for defamation.
I live in Seattle not Eugene. I am not from Tennessee. Don’t own an airplane or a VW Golf. You’re wrong about all of it. I advise you to give it up before you get yourself in some real trouble.
I suspect you will take this comment as evidence that you’ve come close to my identity, but you haven’t. You should consider this comment notice that you’ve been warned that you’re wrong.
As for the rest of it, I am laughing at you folks. Your Internet rallying has accomplished nothing of value for future SAR operations, and in the meantime you’ve shown that your “compassion” is completely phony. How many of your children work for CNET, anyway?
And riddle me this, Batman: Why on earth is the Kim family soliciting donations on line? Money doesn’t exactly seem to be a problem for that crew.
Re: 309 mapper
I know, it made me wish I had never brought Kati
up. I doubt she will ever read this though. I don’t
think people who care about James can read these
blogs because of those 20/20 -ers who are so aware
of their hindsights.
thats funny, it looked to me like friends of the kim’s were just accepting gifts and donations. But yes perhaps kati rushed home from the hospital to start soliciting money, right.
Re: 313 Paul
It may be that they are looking into it, but they
just have been too busy to contact you. I have a
feeling they’re really interested.
I remembered right, you are from Seattle.
Not to agree with you, but I’m not sure what relevance your true identity has anyway beyond possibly explaining why you are so intent on repeatedly bashing James Kim.
For the record, I agreed numerous times with your basic premise that he made a horrific error in judgement, but what is the point of endlessly repeating that refrain ? He paid with his life, is that not enough for you ? Clearly others have made the same mistake. He’s not the first person to get lost and/or stuck up there. We can’t undo what he’s done, but we can discuss and address various ways to try to prevent it from happening again – better signage, gates, changes to maps, etc. It’s also relevant to look at where SAR oversite failed as the Sunday Oregonian article did. I understand the Josephine County authorities are disagreeing, but they need specifics to back them up which I have yet to see or hear.
Lisa,
I hope your right, but it reminds me of that temptation most of us would have, if we knew something was out there, we didn’t want to read it, but couldn’t resist.
I know some friends must be reading (here or other blogs), or eventually will. At least I’m happy to see most people are decent and kind, and it is obvious who they are, and I hope obvious to friends of the family, or family, that read all of this, and that most people understand and support them, very much.
ps. lisa, you didn’t bring up kati, pac made it well known early on that he had a problem with the whole Kim family and their “stupidity” and “irresponsibility”
all the while, on other sites, he will say that the issue has been beaten to death (the kim’s stupidity).
I guess he just wanted to make sure that here, that we all got the same beating, and he could play devil’s advocate over there. your hiliariously shifty pac. all further evidence to me you have no feelings, and are here only to mess with people. its like you dont even have enough heart to support your own words and thoughts, so much passion devoted only to anger, but no purpose.
Paul (#321) that’s a reasonable question. Here’s my answer: I’m no different than the others who, for whatever reason, got sucked into the Kim misadventure. Everyone’s got their opinions about it, and it so happens that my opinions are different from the weepy, Oprah-fied mush that’s been spread so thickly through the media.
This being the Internet, and I being a maladjusted sociopathic meanie that I am, I’m ever so willing to mix it up. If nothing else, at the very least I think a fair view would be that I’m not afraid to point the finger wherever it should be pointed. Surely you’ve read my comments about the undersheriff who didn’t pick up his phone that one night, and about the former dispatcher who was not competent to be the SAR coordinator.
The problem with the crew on this website is that, by and large, they are wallowing in that hero mush. It ought to be clear to all that this is primarily what I object to. The Kims themselves are highly culpable here, as are a handful of the SAR leaders. It’s the story of Dumb and Dumber.
Oh, and as for all the handwringing about whether Kati or the kids will read this or other blogs, I suggest that everyone get over it. Anyone who thinks that people are obligated to sing nursery rhymes and tell fairy tales is living in la-la land.
For better or for worse — I think for worse — this one became a national story. Which means that it’s in the public domain. Which means that it stands for more than just one guy dying. Which means that people can, and should, say exactly what they think. That’s what Americans do, like it or not.
Our compassion isn’t “completely phony” – but riddle me
this – at this point, do you think you deserve it?
Also, people wanted to give the Kim’s donations.
That’s how it started. They didn’t ask first. People
wanted to give first. Riddle yourself that.
We are here to discuss this situation. A lot of good
ideas have been generated. Our purpose is not only
to only accomplish something of value for future SAR
operations, so that is not a valid point.
It is a cheap way of trying to win an argument that we
are not having with you.
I think someone else needs to stop crying about the use of the word HERO and GET OVER IT. If that is your biggest objection you are spending way too much time worrying about being called a hero, you want to be the best, smartest, brightest, the HERO. Your not. Go back to reading comic books with neat little endings and cape’s.
Your upset over a WORD and for some reason PacNWer, that doesn’t surprise me.
(316) seriously pac…your threats will not work. Doesn’t matter if I am right or not – you took the bait.
As for putting someone’s name out here – I wouldn’t do that unless it was publically known (i.e people in the story, reporters, etc).
But at least your not picking on the defenseless Kim’s anymore we moved your attention elsewhere.
Your reckless behavior in your personal life speaks volumes of the demons you are facing. For your sake and other innocent people I hope you stop – you are going to kill somebody some day.
#324 – I strongly disagree that the lions share of the postings have been “wallowing in that hero mush”. The majority of the posting have been speculations on – and discussion of – what went wrong at every level: the Kim’s decision making process; the SAR oversight (or lack thereof); the miscommunications at multiple stages.
You clearly say EXACTLY what you think, now and always. I would argue that judgement and respect for the feelings of others often make holding ones tongue the more compassionate course of action. I recognize you completely disagree with that and I don’t think our two viewpoints are reconcilable.
mapper (#326), words are shorthand. It’s not the word that bugs me, it’s the sentiment behind it. The sentiment is unbalanced. Taken in total, the Kims should be held up as an example of negligence and irresponsibility, not of heroism.
glenn (#327), no “threats” from me. Just a notice.
Apologies, I let him suck me in again.
pac, your worry and focus on the word “hero” is what is unbalanced.
(326)
Definitions of the word Hero
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
1 b : an illustrious warrior
1 c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities
1 d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work
2 b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL
It seems James Kim fits within several definitions of the word.
1c fits him to a “T” in his personal life, family and work.
1d he definitely showed a lot of courage.
2b he is the central figure of this event.
3 I am sure his kids thought he was hero even before this fateful event.
I am not sure how anyone can debate the definition. It is clear that James Kim was a Hero.
(329) We are the ones giving you notice. You are begging for this attention and we can dig all we want.
How do you explain your criticism of the Kim’s accidental irresponsibility whilst you “brag” about speeding at 92mph? That is deliberate irresponsibility and you are putting other people’s lives in danger. In some states that borders on reckless endangerment (a very serious charge).
Why don’t you explain to everyone here why it is ok for you to be deliberately reckless and irresponsible but no one else can?
You know PacNWer there is no honor in what you do or say…not only hear but in the other places you have made comments.
You are a very crass individual…
Your joke about putting a baby in a dryer or microwave – really what is wrong with you?
Speeding at 92mph? There is no reason for anyone to drive at that speed on a public road. Do you think yourself that important that you can disregard other people’s lives so you can arrive 1 minute earlier?
So you want to sit here and judge the Kim’s (there is no honor in that), smear their good name, etc. Did you actually think that people would sit idle and let you continue?
Why don’t you go out find something honorable to do today? I am sure you have a lot to make up for.
Are you saying Glenn that you’ve never done anything irresponsible or risky for those with you? If you haven’t, how fortunate for you. You are now just glomming onto whatever you can to discredit Pac. You can find “something” to discredit nearly anyone. PacNWer is honest, thus his revelation of the accident he had. Sometimes he is “brutally” honest, or perhaps honest without much reservation. He will admit that I think. And I do not think anyone expects the Kims should be perfect. In a way, they were unlucky that they did not get away with their risks this time. Everyone takes risks to some degree. Although with the Kims, their risks were huge with their children, and their misjudgements and mistakes continued to a remarkable degree. Their story evokes horror in anyone, and hopefully a response of vowing not to let it happen to ourselves.
This campaign to discredit PacNWer seems to be rather a negative waste of time concentrating on an individual. And a “project” to psycho-analyze him would even be a bigger waste of time. So the character of this message board has changed from constructive to trivial, and that is hard to deny. I initially had positive feelings about this board, but that was a long time ago. Now it is becoming dominated by “Frances Like” bitterness, which is not a compliment.
I do compliment you on by and large a constructive board, until the last part. Until then, it was mostly interesting and informative, and gave me some good ideas. Even though I did have to weed through a lot of comments that emotionally supported the Kims actions, and after a while got to be repetitive. There should be “condolence” boards all to themselves, and then boards that are not “condolence” boards to express opinions and share information, IMHO.
(297) Paul, thank you for that link. I, too, think it’s a pretty good summary and points out the need for training, good coordination and a means for relevant information to flow.
RE: 335 / D.H. – you are spot on, IMHO, on:
“…a negative waste of time.”
I count myself among the guilty, I let him suck me in again. He’s pretty good at baiting, you must concede, but we’ve been equally good at snapping at the bait. I think we’ve gone in about 100 circles with him (& O & MM) and made absolutely no headway and never will.
(335)
D.H…appreciate your comments. It isn’t the points that Pac makes…it is his delivery and quite frankly they are mild on this board compared to what he is saying on other boards.
This board has tons of great information and we should all be thankful for Joe for bringing this together. We are also all working very hard to make a difference in the future – and we would love to have you join us in that. A challenging voice to what we want to do is necessary to get it right.
However where things really got weird with Pac is his out-of-the-blue rants, put-downs and absurd behavior. I recommend going back to the top of this page and reading posts 7 and 9 – short posts but speak volumes of his motives. The rest of us are trying to do something honorable, making something positive out of this horrible situation others like Pac want to disrupt, derail and even sabotage our efforts – he deserves all the crap he gets from everyone on this board.
Every single time someone agreed with his points (and we ALL conceding them over and over again) he turns around within a short-time and attacks someone. I even got sucked into it on the original thread and even said…yeah Pac…yada yada ya, and then you will read later from me…you know back you just don’t know when to shut up.
Quite frankly Pac is a disruptor and he thrives on that role but at some point you can’t ignore it and you have to take a stand – that is what everyone is doing here – we don’t have to take his crap and when he dishes it out he is going to get back.
As for myself…aye yi yi…oh I have screwed up in my life too many times – I could really write a book about. I have directly cheated death three times for what could be considered stupid mistakes in hindsight. I have pushed the envelope too many times…broken a few bones…one incident caused me to spend a month in the hospital and a year of physical rehab and multiple operations.
Yeah I have messed up a lot but I am one of the few lucky ones to still be alive…guess that is why I figure I can say something about it.
You should hear the lectures my kids get. But you know, they are really street smart, happy and fun kids and they all get top grades in school. I am sure my kids dread the ole here goes dad again but they listen and learn…my oldest daughter calls them my “one time” stories…because they always start out – you know one time I did this and this is what happened…
I feel bad in someways about the Pac crap rolling here in the blogs…but that is a small price to pay for the power of the blog and I do agree with Mapper – someone needs to defend the Kim’s honor – as nothing to do with who was right or wrong – the man is dead – he paid – his honor should be protected and respected along with his memory.
Re: 335
This is an open discussion board. There are many, many
people – locals – people who have been on those roads
that say it is too easy to make these mistakes. They
say the roads are very confusing and poorly marked – the
signs are too few and the information is weak – it is not
clear enough that the road is impassable in the winter on maps. One woman who wrote an editorial about these issues lives on these roads.
So the roads would be even more confusing at night in the
mountains – when it starts to snow. The point is there
were innocent mistakes. A lot of people recognize this.
A lot of people don’t.
Understanding that there were mistakes made – but that
they were innocent mistakes – that is an opinion. That
may “emotionally” support the Kim’s actions, but it
is a valid opinion.
Empathy can be part of an opinion. I have not seen any
postings on this board which would qualify only as
condolence postings. That’s just an excuse for people
who don’t want to hear much sympathy for the Kims.
Re: 311 Navigator
Yes, I am trying to put myself in the place of the Kims during the evening of Sat, Nov. 25 to try to reconstruct – as best as possible given imperfect information – what they might have known and hence to understand the choices they made. I start with the assumption that they are/were smart people, but making decisions based on the limited information they had and hindered by 1) poor weather and visibility, 2) tiredness, 3) anxiousness to get to the coast, 4) children, and 5) perhaps other stresses we will never know about. I am not interested in judging them, only in understanding, as it isn’t helpful to second guess what they did that night.
I am interested in changes that could be made to prevent future tragedies. In particular, looking at the ODOT map, I was stunned that a one-lane road with no turnoffs that is impassable in the winter would even be shown so boldly! The fact that the map said “closed in winter” isn’t helpful as 1) it wasn’t winter and 2) the road wasn’t closed but rather was open to traffic. I think this is one place where changes should be made.
In the second part of my analysis, I hope to get a sense of the role that the open gate might have played. My hunch, as I indicated before, is they went straight though at the critical fork between NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36, not even realizing in the bad weather that they had made a wrong turn – until perhaps it was too late to turn around and go back.
Just to be clear, my understanding is that the Kims did NOT use an Internet mapping service to navigate but rather the printed ODOT map. I am just using the Internet mapping services as a convenient way to see and understand the geography.
Re: Many other posting
Please folks, we are starting to see a fairly low signal-to-noise ratio here. Could we try to limit the cross talk and comments on individual posters and focus on the substantive issues at hand: How to learn from the Kim tragedy to prevent something similar in the future? Thank you.
I know the kims used a paper map, but I think we should try to contact mapquest and let them know that their route (even when in advance search mode request to illimenate seasonally closed roads) is Bear Camp Route and it shouldnt be given as a viable route.
others may use mapquest and take that road.
heres the link to email a comment.
http://help.mapquest.com/jive/mqsuggest.jspa
RE 340
Rob Z, we are in complete alignment about the analysis you are conducting. My comments about the internet mapping service was to illustrate the similarities between those using a paper map or a high tech (presumably better) version which may be of the same origin.
There is absolutely no judgment inferred or intended on my part.
Just a cautionary note to illustrate, the delta between low tech and high tech in this situation may be zero.
RobZ, paul, gayle, glenn, lisa, maggie, mapper along those lines of RobZ, has anyone taken a look at my CMT 305 and earlier CMT 64. These took a bit of time to write.
I think Pac is actualy trying to goad us into ACTION with his posts here. And he’s laughing at us because he can say a few things, little things, and send people off on a tirade that detracts from the purpose at hand. How easily we are re directed! His forum at the mailtribune was the picture of civility and purpose. There are some good concrete suggestions on there. its so much slower though than this site! Maybe its reverse psychology (which does not work, anyone with kids knows that!)he’s attempting here. “You people will accomplish nothing”…. Sounds like it could be a reverse psychology approach to me…
Cant we all just put our heads/resources together for a plan? why does it have to be a competition?
I see 64 but not 305. I occasionally work and sleep during posting so I am sorry I didn’t stop to say, I read it, and I am in full agreement! I thought maybe people were tired of me also harping on the USFS and BLM so I figure, my opinion on that is pretty well noted!
I think I read someone….above or elsewhere, they actually got lost up there and came across one “you are here map” but it was carved out of wood!?!?!?
that would be a nightmare! I dont think that is the kind of map/sign neccessary up there!
(64) Hey bamadad…I just read 64. At that point in this thread I was really focused on processing all the mount hood data so I am sorry for not spending any time on this until now…
You have a very good summary of the data points both in regard to current coverage and the past history of SAR in Oregon. I read through all of those stats previously and was quite surprised that there weren’t a lot more city slickers losts up in those hills as some would have liked us to believe.
As far as Peter Sleeth – thank god somebody has the drive to get to the bottom of this. I have had some minor communication with him throughout this and he has been very candid, polite and definitely wanting to get more out than he has so far – not sure I really want to know just how bad it is.
Yes I guess we all better hope a review in under way. Sounds like BLM is really trying to be on top of this – that’s good…just sad to see such a tragedy like this to bring it to the forefront at least it is better than ostrich mode.
I also think it is very important for everyone to understand that SAR doesn’t ever place blame on the victim(s) regardless of how it happened. SAR’s mandate is clear – the name says it all – Search And Rescue. It is becoming painfully clear just how important it is to have someone with the proper experience, fortitude and openness required to be successful as the coordinator of a SAR effort.
As sad as this sounds…I don’t think finding the Kim family was really the priority of Rubrecht and Anderson based on their decisions, actions and their personal situations. It really wasn’t until Mr. Kim flew up there in a private jet did things get fired up. I just keep going over and over the missed opportunities and bad decisions on Friday, Saturday and Sunday night, etc…etc…etc… each one of those opportunities turned into another loop in the noose around James neck.
344 / Bamadad – just clarifying, post 305 ?…that’s my post with a link. Did read your other lengthy 64, excellent info and subsequent good resource contact info on how we can get some of this stuff put into action.
346 – Carved out of wood. I know exactly which map is being referenced, and while not the best map in the world, it is not nearly as decipherable at the author insisted…or I guess I should say I can understand it.
(345) Christine I don’t think PacNWer is trying to be that clever. You did give him too much credit. The intent of his posts and approach is very clear. You are correct about the re-direct…it has happened but we always seem to find our place again.
Outside of this forum and Pac’s participation there is a lot going on.
For me I guess most of the issues surrounding the Kim’s tragedy has been aired out now it is time for the systems in place to review and correct. Hopefully they will and it won’t be swept around a rug.
For my attention regarding PacNWer…I was brought up if there was a bully in the school yard you just went up and kicked his arse…sometimes and unfortunately it is what it takes. If some think dealing with Pac has detracted from the depth of wisdom here – I apologize – I am just trying to clean up the school yard.
It is my guess in the long run Pac will be a distant memory and something long-lasting and helpful will come out of this and will help save a life someday.
337 Everything you said, ditto. Our fault, it’s only going to work if we all totally ignore him. Then he’ll go away, and then he’ll come back again later hoping we forgot our pledge to ignore him. He doesn’t thrive on negativity, he needs it, like we need to breath. If we don’t give him what he needs, he’ll go find it elsewhere.
(344) bamadad, yes, I did read your comments in (64) and liked what you had to say. I had previously posted the same link from Susan Nielsen/Oregonian because it speaks volumes. I’ve still not heard back from Patty at BLM, but my hope is that it’s because they’ve received several emails such as mine and are busy working on good ideas for the roads, etc.
Still would be curious how the Sleeth article is being received in Grants Pass & Medford. We know the sheriff did a radio press conference where he said the article is flat out wrong, but the evidence thus far that Sleeth has it “right” is pretty compelling.
Joe, Spencer, Bob H. – have you seen any specific refutations from the Sheriff and/or other agencies in the area that you can cite or link to ?
In addition to the OR / CA issues I cited in 268, there is the all too common rural/city divide in Oregon. It is amplified in Oregon in that Portland/Salem/Eugene have the lions share of the population base, so tend to drive decisions politically, but are generally more liberal than the rest of the state, esp the rural areas. The point of all that is you end up in a situation where folks in Josephine County may be less inclined than they should be to take constructive outside criticism from anyone in the city, esp the city of Portland.
REPOST: So what about this. Edit it, spruce it up, flame it, I have no pride of authorship. Need to get Joe’s permission if it is signed with his blog title out of respect for him.
Somebody can send it to National BLM at the Dept of Interior (BLM.gov) and USFS at Dept of Agriculture plus to a local Congressional Office in California and Oregon.
———————-
One of our bloggers received this reply from BLM (Wash-Oregon) about 16 Dec 06:
“In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road #34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these roads provide public access.”
Many of us hope to hear the same review is underway at the BLM and USFS nation-wide. BLM/USFS needs to review signage throughout its inventory. Just a small program to fix the 10 most confusing intersections would be a great start. An urban traffic engineer could help them. Most urban areas find the 10 deadliest/confusing intersections annually and then as funds permit improve them. Maybe BLM already does something like this, but Bear Camp Road proves that any such program is not working.
Look at this photo of the intersection on Bear Camp in wet, not snowy weather. It’s obvious what is wrong!
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002
Some of us believe that this could be a systemic problem, because the responsible official at the local BLM did not know about, or if so, they did not put a high priority on it. Or no one listened to their customers, who are all the motorists (local and out of state) who use that intersection. Otherwise we should have heard that the repair of this intersection is in some 5 year budget program.
Here is the recent report of a “local customer” who apparently has been complaining to BLM for years about that intersection. It is obvious that your customer service is lacking. Many others have complained. A local lodge owner even helped mark the road, which works marginally in dry,clear weather.
http://www.currycountyreporter.com/news/results.cfm?story_no=1907
BLM and the USFS could start with the official State maps depicting all routes thru your property and check those routes for similar problems. (Where the road is much more treacherous than it appears on the map.) That would cut out the large number of spur roads for budget reasons. If you saw some self-help, scrawled, painted directions on the dry pavement, like here with the words “Coast” and “Dead End”– seems that’s a clue something is not working.
Our hope is that we don’t get a new sign, ONLY every time someone dies, due in small part to the absence of a sign or gate. We are NOT talking about a big program here, just a system to identify those few places which the current system has failed to find.
Respectfully,
[Editorial note – this was signed “The Joe Duck blog” because bamadad was asking about a community effort note. I (Joe) removed that for now to avoid people thinking I wrote something I didn’t ]
Comment by bamadad | December 19, 2006
Maggie, thanks for the input on my cmt 64 post. I know that sometimes the word doesn’t get to the proper official who can make something happen. Even on something this widely publicized. At the least, a letter to the local Congressmen or Senator out there (make sure he/she was reelected or send to the new chap) will prompt some kind of eventual response. Same goes for higher level within an agency.
I think whoever went to the local BLM level was completely correct and very sharp and got an immediate response, if they already weren’t in action. (Susan, I think did this and I quoted from her post– she did very well).
So I was just toying around with how a blog like this would work. This kind of blog is just a post it, and you can’t make edits or flag people. Not sure what kind of blog software this is or permits the editing functions.
(353) I am wondering what follow up will occur in regard to additional articles, etc…
(353) was that the new sherriff that did the press conference?
#356: “Sheriff Daniels, Josephine County Sheriff, had a press conference on local stations in the Southern Oregon area tonight. He hasn’t been seen for some time, because he has some kind of undisclosed medical issues. They were serious enough that he withdrew from a political race earlier this year.
Daniels disputed the Oregonian piece and said that some of the statements attributed to his SAR leader and OSP were lies. He also disputed some of the other claims made in the Oregonian.
In reference to OSP taking over, Daniels said it didn’t happen this time and won’t happen anytime. They work together in searches, but the statutory responsibility and authority for SAR is long established as belonging to the Sheriff of the affected county.”
(356) Has anyone found a link to the presser?
Sounds to me like he takes pretty strong exception to the article, hence my interest in how it is playing out locally…calling them “lies” is pretty strong language.
Re: 353
Yes, Paul that’s true. It’s interesting that so far as
we know they’ve just said it’s wrong but they haven’t
clarified what’s wrong.
I won’t be able to participate as much because I have
some other issues that are pressing – I will check
back in.
I just wanted to say that it was nice to “meet” all
of you and it has really helped renew and affirm my understanding of how many truly good quality people
are out there.
At some point I would like to backtrack and follow-up on
all the emails that have been sent to different agencies,
to send more, and also to check in a month or two, and see what the follow through is.
I will keep your email address, glenn, because I’m sure
that would be a good way to catch up on any developments!
I hope a record of this blog may be able to be kept on this
website, but I don’t know how all that will work.
Keep up the good work! It’s very admirable!
Affectionately, Lisa
Glenn – I’ve not been able to find a print version of the press conf., hence my solicitation. Kind of vague to allege the account is lies yet not give specifics to back that up.
(64) bamadad, just re-read your article, excellent common sense advise. Do you think USFS will do a review as well as BLM, or that BLM is doing that for USFS? Somehow I thought USFS owned the land and BLM managed it for them, but I really don’t know.
BLM did write me back “In light of the recent Kim family tragedy that occurred in Southwestern
Oregon, the Oregon/Washington State Office has convened a small team of
experts to review the policies and procedures related to management of road
#34-8-36 and other routes in the vicinity of the Bear Camp Road. The
purpose of this review is to determine to what extent, if any, changes to
those policies and procedures are in order to reduce the potential for
future incidents in consideration of the variety of uses for which these
roads provide public access.”
I have not heard back from Portland police, I was hoping to clear the name of Mike Weinstein and/or to find out if a review was underway by them.
I wrote Oregon State Police as well, have not heard back.
It seems you would want to constantly want to review coordination and communication. Not just when things went wrong, even when they go right.
I just had a thought, someone posted an article about Josephine county SAR, and I think there was some reference that SAR must have certain qualifications. Maybe there is some kind of licensing or oversight by some government agency that both the volunteers and professionals must belong to. That agency might be very receptive to feedback and questions. If anyone remembers which # that article is in, let me know.
363, found it, 134
“Every Member of the Josephine County Sheriff’s Patrol SEARCH & RESCUE must meet certain standards and training to ensure a safe and successful search and/or rescue. The standards are developed and maintained by the Oregon State Sheriff’s Association (OSSA). These certification standards are the minimum which meet state requirements of the Office of Emergency Management and still allow the flexibility for the specific needs or conditions in which our ground personnel operate. The OSSA certification standards are the minimum standards for SAR personnel who will be involved in the field with ground SAR operations as well.”
So now have to figure out how to contact OSSA.
Re: #344 Yes, I did read the posts (you did a wonderful and time consuming job of puting this together!) and agree. Sorry, I don’t comment but rarely, mostly just share whatever I find by linking, but I do read each and every post when I have a chance to sit down at the computer.
Susan, this it the one, I think…
http://www.co.josephine.or.us/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=143
Lisa, pls keep my email too! …kipscott at gmail dot com
Re: 367
Thanks kip! I will!
Also p.s.
I heard today on public radio our Oregon Governor, Ted
Kulongoski, saying that he thinks one way to improve
SAR is to have the state get more involved. He cited how often the efforts begin in more than one county,
and that it would be good to have more oversight and
coordination from the state.
I know some people think more bureaucracy = more of a problem. But I don’t think that would be true in this case. It sounds like there would be more specialized competent people overseeing SAR for the whole state.
And I think his response had even more to do with the
Kim’s story than with Mt. Hood, because that was not
a multi-county search.
Joe, if that was you over at Medford forum… that is the danger of one person owning a so called “forum”… you’re right. This is definitely “your little blog”. Emphasis on “YOUR”. Your need to go over there and stir it up by attacking PacNWer at the expense of our thread was not becoming of the owner of this running thread over here. Over there, it’s one of many Topics in the Mail Tribune forums, not “owned” by anyone but the Mail Tribune, who are trying to be objective. But you’re NOT being objective, and as the owner of this “forum”, you have crossed the line. Just for revenge at one person, you have sacrificed your credibility.
#345, it’s good to know that it only took 1,350 messages on this board until someone finally figured out a big piece of what I’m trying to do. It’s what gadflies have done throughout the ages. Now come on, people, you’ve had all this time to come up with ideas. I’ve actually done it. Did it a looooooooong time ago.
If I so (fill in the adjective), then how come I’m the only person here who’s actually come up with a specific list of ideas that, if promoted, would SAVE LIVES? That’s what it’s about, right? Right?
Maybe not for you, then.
I’ve always insisted on having a cell phone with analog as well as digital, but as scarce as they’ve become, last week I had to bit the bullet when I got my new phone – all digital, and possibly all limiting when it matters most on the way to some of the remote places I like to camp where analog sometimes kicks in where digital didn’t exist. Anyway, something else to think about when considering people lost somewhere even less urban than just rural:
http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/communication/stories/165028.html
In response to attending a survival school.
I can attest to no finer medium to appreciate the ability to endure or appreciate being in such a circumstance. As a former member of the military, I was required to complete an 11 day survival course. Additional courses included Jungle, Water and Desert techniques. I’m NOT advocating the attendance of any of the afore mentioned, just passing along my personal experience.
The first or second day is filled with accepting your station in this situation. Hunger pangs equate to starving and the lack of comfort equates to impending doom.
Day three/four….the hunger pangs have stopped….my thoughts of food are central to every action and movement. Previous qualms about consuming ants or other insects have ceased. In fact, I openly consume them in an effort to maintain core body temp. This has become my primary function during daylight hours, between finding and constructing shelter.
The fifth day, traveling a mile would be an accomplishment, don’t want to leave familiar territory, but needed to find salvation. I make my mattress out of pine boughs (as trained) stacked at least four feet high. I had a knife and the knowledge to construct the afore mentioned long before sunset (3 PM).
Day six, my first (and only) experience with hallucinations. They are in fact 3-D, full color and appear as real as anything else. Between my boots, as I sat resting against a pine tree, was an ear of corn with a pat of butter and steam rising. I recall grasping at that inviting and familiar food source without success for some time.
Day seven to eleven, I could have committed the Lindburgh kidnapping, as I have no reliable recall. I was able to make the final point in this exercise.
When approached by the instructors, I was handed a clipboard and asked to complete the questionnaire, I thought I was looking at a combination of the SAT and ACT tests.
Several days later, I was presented with the same questionnaire and reviewed my answers. There were about 15 questions, most of which I have long forgotten (1981). The one question I do recall was…Farmer Brown has two cows, he sells two cows, how many cows does Farmer Brown have? I drew a picture of a cow as a response.
Attending survival school was a million dollar experience, I would not give a nickel to repeat If this perspective can offer ANY insight to the trials of a survival experience (without the benefit of training) it was well worth it.
(370) Pac how long ago did you come up with your ideas?
Navigator, thank you for sharing your experience. As well as you explained it, and I think you did that very well, I still can only imagine.
Two questions, both of which may be dumb.
1. What *exactly* do the warning signs on Bear Camp Rd say? I read a reference that seemed to indicate those signs essentially say “Bear Camp Road is closed and dangerous blah blah blah” as opposed to “The road you are currently on is closed and dangerous blah blah blah”. Can someone tell us exactly what they say? The obvious point being, if you’re not from around there, you probably have no idea what “Bear Camp Road” is.
2. Has anyone seen any comments from Kati, even secondhand, about whether James explored the roads during the days they were stranded? I seem to remember something about her saying they were constantly scared of a bear attack, but I can’t find it now.
Thanks.
RobZ, I posted a couple times last week that I believe they never went past the fork on the “correct” side. I think everything can be explained with that scenario. And that scenario makes the most sense. I also believe that Kati probably doesn’t know.
Susan and Gayle,….Susan, looks like Gayle found the Josephine County standards for SAR. Good job. Supposedly they are higher than the state minimums. So anyone want to compare. The Oregon SAR standards are at:
Here is the site for his annual Oregon SAR reports, etc. http://www.oregon.gov/OOHS/OEM/tech_resp/sar.shtml
Question from Susan:
Do you think USFS will do a review as well as BLM, or that BLM is doing that for USFS? Somehow I thought USFS owned the land and BLM managed it for them, but I really don’t know.
I think they will act independently. The land upon which Kim died was BLM (I think) and BLM will probably start a review with modest prodding based on his death. USFS would likely need a bit more prodding to review their signage- it would detract from their fire fighting efforts.
Yes this was unclear to me as well, but they are completely separate agencies (maybe some coordination), but BLM is Dept of Interior and USFS is Dept of Ag. BLM also manages oil, mineral, drilling rights on its property– so I hope these guys can spring for a few new directional signs, some Dead End signs and a gate or two.
From their web sites:
The Bureau of Land Management (BLM), an agency within the U.S. Department of the Interior, administers 258 million surface acres of America’s public lands, located primarily in 12 Western States.
The Forest Service was established in 1905 and is an agency of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The Forest Service manages public lands in national forests and grasslands, which encompass 193 million acres.
Re: #375 part 2… this is from
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4832318
“He was on dirt for a long time — for miles,” Rachor said. “He was only on snow about 100 yards. Right where he hit the snow there were bear tracks. I don’t know which came first, the chicken or egg. I understand (Kati Kim) told someone they were terrified of bears. Whether he saw the bear tracks and decided to leave the road or whether he tried to head down a drainage to get to civilization, we just don’t know that.
It’s the only reference I have seen.
375 – The signs say, exactly: Bear Camp Rd. may be blocked by snowdrifts X miles ahead. There are 3 signs. They are all quite large and all but impossible to miss. They are bright yellow. They do not say the road would be closed, but I think “blocked” is all but saying the same thing. The number of miles ahead changes from sign to sign as they are each closer to the ridge summit.
(378) Begs the question…were they operating at their stated standards?
382 – I still think the previously stated theory, based on Kati’s testimony, that he thought he was descending the creek above Galice is very interesting. Of course we’ll never know for sure, but given where she says they thought they were, it makes sense.
(372) Your post brings good insight to how James was feeling and thinking. 9 days without a lot of food, from what I have read he didn’t eat anything he made sure his wife and kids had all the food.
Navigator how would you assess James’s efforts after leaving the car in the type of condition he was in? Were you surprised at how far he made it in that canyon?
Post 372 speaks directly to James state of mind after 7+ days without food. I suspect none of the rest of us are qualified to address, as Navigator has, how coherent (or not) his thoughts were (or weren’t).
Just found this here…
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120606_news_camp_road.25238b1.html
…Burel said the Forest Service and BLM wanted like to hear from the public about what they think should be done with Bear Camp Road and the spur roads off of it.
They can call Patty Burel at the US Forest Service in Medford at (541) 858-2200.
#369 D.H. – What is with you ? There is NO evidence, zero, that Joe has posted on that forum. Joe has largely stayed above this fray, to his great credit, opining very infrequently and largely on matters totally unrelated to PCNWR. What HAS happened is other posters have – as they have here – grown fed up with Sou’Wester trying to hijack the blog and with his incessant blather about the same points over and over and over. I will not engage further with Sou’Wester, nor with you, but I had to speak up on Joe’s behalf as that was a cheap shot.
Video about Bear Camp Road being closed in winter…
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?q=james+kim
(372) Navigator, thank you for sharing that incredible insight into what it’s like trying to survive. I really can’t even imagine.
(377) Rodney, I’m still kind of thinking the same – that the Kim’s never made it onto SF23 and instead took that right continuing on 34-8-36 (I’m curious if anything there shows 34-8-36 as such that may have made them also think it was a continuation of the route they were already on??), once down that road they maybe took one of the offshoots from which they actually backed up, and most of all – they were desperately lost, and I don’t know whether Kati would actually have any better idea now than then of exactly where they turned or backed up. As others have said, just a hunch. I really doubt that we will ever know for certain. What we do know is that particular fork in the road has confused plenty of people, and most were just fortunate enough to make it back out of there.
PAUL: – You decide. If I’m wrong, I apologize.
There’s no escaping Pac-Man.
At this link:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-m…ness-of-oregon/
Pac-Man (as they call him there) conducted himself just as righteously and egotisically as he does here, but with an added dose of immaturity and anger, check this stroke of brilliance out:
“Susan’s e-mails did nothing. Your group did nothing. You came up with no ideas of any value. The Oregonian did all of the reporting and all of the analysis. This forum has been nothing, and I do mean nothing, but a vehicle for you people to congratulate yourselves on how concerned you are, and to engage in your pointless fetish for how the Internet can solve these things. Which it cannot.”
I’m browsing around trying to get into some intelligent discussion re: this case, which to me is getting more curious by the day (Sarah, shame shame) and this guy is everywhere – what exactly do you get out of browbeating complete strangers? It’s clear that you get off big time on attention and I know I’m feeding the monster, but dude you need to lighten up – life is short.
Joe
Navigator, Susan, RobZ, Gayle
I have had similar, even longer, military training, decades ago. One of those “wouldn’t ever do it again, but wouldn’t have missed it for the world” deals. Where was yours, Navi?
That survival aspect drew me to this thread for info. Plus by watching the internet videos and photos, I wanted to figure out when I would have turned back. That soon became clear and at that point, I let out, an “oh, my God” sigh. and worried about any rescue.
Then I wanted to see what I would have done if I was propelled forward to his post-stuck predicament, but with only his equipment/resources. Obviously, I would have made different choices, but the wildcard here is the dynamics of a wife, 4 year old, and infant in the car for six days. That is a huge factor.
Anyway, once I was done with that, I posted some info here to give perspective on the SAR response, because the SAR response just didn’t make sense at the command and control level
…..and to write a draft email and post it, so the younger internet savvy folks, could just take my draft comments (CMT 355), make it their own and send them off to BLM, USFS, Congress, whoever.
Re: 375 Rodney
The only signs I saw on Bear Camp in the CNN photos
said “Warning May Be Snow Drifts Ahead”.
There is the editorial from the woman who lives there (you can find the link at post 245) and she says they say “‘Bear Camp Road’ May Be Closed in Winter.”
I know I saw photos that said what I first quoted,
and I will try to find them. Still it’s obvious that
“May Be” is not clear or strong enough to dissuade people who don’t know the mountains better.
Re: 376
You go girl, Francis. This blog is meant to be
informative, but real and relaxed. Some people
want it to be more on point, some people want it to
also be enjoyable. I believe there’s room for both.
But the people who really complain like D.H. are just
eager to be critical.
I agree though that it’s probably best not to engage
in a lot of personal assault and speculation – because it can get out of hand and take up a lot of blog space. Then it all turns into “As the Blog Scrolls…” Which is very
much what the confusing statements of 369 seemed to reflect.
(it’s hard to stay away!)
1. This is a person’s personal blog – everyone who comes here knows this – this has never been represented as anything other, to my knowledge. Being’s one personal blog, they can run it any way they choose and let what ever they want flow. If another comes to a personal blog & doesn’t like it the way it’s run, or doesn’t feel it holds the amount and/or quality of information they are seeking, then go to someone else’s blog, forum, message board or start your own of any of the previously mentioned.
2. If you don’t like the feelings/sentiments of people posting on someone’s personal blog, then go elsewhere
3. One person does not have all the answers nor are the solutions found quickly, easily or from one person only. It is a formulation of time, thought – individual as well as group – effort, trial & error, give & take, use & throw out. It is a process.
4. Those who share a similar general opinion, effort & viewpoint have the right to assemble without people who only want to cause trouble, attack and bring little constructive to the group. When a group has communicated in a decent manner among itself, there is nothing wrong with that group continuing to want to do so in said manner & want new comers to the group to a do so, as well. This does not mean the group doesn’t welcome new input.
5. D.H. for one who resented being called a follower of PW, you surely spend a great deal of effort defending the very one you resented being called a follower of.
6. You took offense at something I said and now you’re trying to bait me. Amuse yourself. I made a mistake. I recognized and admitted my mistake, I sincerely apologized, gave an explanation – not excuse, explanation & excuse are different. There’s nothing more I can do than that, and nothing more I will try to do.
7. One thing I thought I might be able to bring to this forum which no one else seemed to have done so far at the point I did, not that I’m anything special or had any insight that no one else had, but only that no one else had brought it up at the point I did, was the dynamics of the inside of the workings of officials of a small community. Location may be different, faces may be different, names may be different, there may be less significant individual differences, but the basics of human dynamics are not nor are the inner dynamics of the workings of a small community. If I have exhibited any bitterness it is because I’ve personally witnessed how this dynamic can put lives at risk, as was done in the Kim’s case.
Thought processes have been intense, efforts have been, are being made. Emotions have been wound up. Yes, including my own. Sometimes the best relief can be humor, take a break, stretch a bit, humor can be used as a mental walk to ease up before getting back to work. One does not have to keep things completely serious all the time or one’s nose to the grindstone every second to make progress. And because there is not complete seriousness 100% of the time and because noses are not kept to the grindstone 100% of the time, does not mean that the focus or interest is being lost or re-directed.
If you see my efforts as ‘bitter’ so be it.
MY PROFUSE APOLOGIES TO JOE DUCK. After some research, this was not Joe Duck. I jumped the gun. Once again, my above posts #369 and #392 are not true about Joe Duck. Joe, you are free to delete them. I’m so sorry.
Into thin Ozone …
Holy Leapin’ Luddites !!
Now let’s all start being creative and start thinking about new inventions to prevent foolishness and bad luck.
Ah-ha! I know! Thanks to the internet, we will solve the problems of humanity and make this a better world and everyone will be happy.
First invention in the blog hall of fame is the Electric GPS Driver Collar or Robo-driver.
This handy device when properly placed on the driver’s collar is a GPS based system incorporating the highest accuracy in positioning tech (and it also serves you coffee in the morning if you program it to). Now this little gizmo will Auto-matically (no pun intended) ZAP the driver with a harmless but painful electric shock whenever he or she misses a turn and goes the wrong way.
And … The Electric GPS Collar will keep ZAPPING the driver at ever increasing frequencies until he/she pulls a U.
And … The Electric GPS Collar cannot be removed until … the driver fills the car’s Gas Tank !!
Brilliant! Perfect Stocking-stuffer!
Next … A brain-implantable version of the Electric GPS Collar!
Navigator – very insightfull & helpful
(389) I was going to suggest to D.H. that he should verify that is was Joe in the first place…
A simple Hey Joe did you post…
Then respond…Thanks Paul something needed to be said.
RE 386, 387, 374, 379
To your posts I can only answer the following…..I KNEW it would only last 11 days, I KNEW I was being observed, I KNEW it was an exercise.
After three or four days, the afore became irrelevant. This may seem hard to believe, but is the truth from my perspective. I WAS LOST and had to rely on my training. Missing a meal or being delayed by hours during travel has NO effect upon me. I do appreciate how this may not be such a circumstance in other conditions. I would assess, surviving the trials of Mr. Kim without training as beyond my realm of comprehension. He did a stellar job compared to my personal experience or expectation! PERIOD!
I can say, after the first four or five days (I had NO family) my mental capabilities were reduced to that of a simple hunter/gatherer. PERIOD. Should anyone have a different experience, by all means speak up!
(395) cool thanks for stepping up. it is appreciated.
Re: #390 Here’s that link again…
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?q=james+kim
click on …Road that isolated family was supposed to be closed…in the menu. Video has pics of road signs on Bear Camp Rd.
Does anyone know if there are any national SAR standards which each state and/or local SAR has to meet?
Thank you, DH, for being so honest. 🙂
(398)
Thanks for your assessment very interesting to try to understand the superhuman effort he put in. That is one dedicated father – amazing what love for your family can make happen. It is also further testament that James King should be remembered as a hero.
Your insight is appreciated.
(402) sorry I did it again…James Kim…not King…I wonder who James King is…could he be a hero too?
397-392 He apologized, right away. Everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone will admit it.
Re: 375, 390
Also here’s the article that has CNN video. They
took the original pictures of the road off the
article to provide more room for advertising.
I haven’t seen the video myself because I still
have dial-up and it’s so slow.
http://cnn.com/2006/US/12/11/griffin.oregon/index.html?eref=sitesearch
(404) re(397) about (392) please see (399)
406 LOL! that was good, and yes, I missed 399, or was it 392? 397? 404?
Sorry
(407) sounded like u committed a 1267 regarding that 404 in relation to the 397 that was responding to 392 and ultimately ended up here…
come to think of it you can’t get there from here…
(370) Hey Pac if a lot of this frustration you are exhibiting has to do with the frustration of not seeing your idea implemented you really need to send me an email and I will take a serious look at it and see if there is a way to get your idea done.
Ideas are just that…ideas. Executing on them to make them real is a whole other story and if this what is driving you nuts and getting you so angry believe I have been there…been my whole life trying to turn ideas into real things.
If your serious about making something happen then drop me that email.
RE 393 Bamadad,
My training was near Spokane, WA, Miami, FL, Tucson, AZ and the Philippines.
I have no wife or children to consider, so your question is beyond my realm of comprehension. (As is any other in regard to family safety).
My training was in regard to surviving an aircraft crash and contacting rescue. The part of this post I find most compelling, is the added survival of a wife and children. I can’t provide any information in regard to the afore mentioned. I would suggest, your sense of self preservation equating to the preservation of your deserving family or any other person involved. That is the credo by which I have conducted my life, since survival training, at least.
Sorry for the milque toast answer.
RE 393 Bamadad,
If you went through similar training, I know I’m asking for a lot, what were your experiences?
I’d be interested in hearing from someone who’s viewed
the videos of the road and the signs recently, an
exact quote of what they say…
I’m joining this conversation late after stumbling on the site while doing an Internet search. I’m very interested in the signage issue. The warning signs, according to the CNN video, say “BEAR CAMP RD (NF-23) MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOWDRIFTS 33 MILES AHEAD,” “BEAR CAMP RD (NF-23) MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOWDRIFTS 28 MILES AHEAD” AND “ROAD (NF-23) MAY BE BLOCKED BY SNOWDRIFTS 10 MILES AHEAD.” Here’s my question: Forget about the Kims for a minute and assume I’m a dumb tourist driving on I-5 looking for a route to the coast. I check my Randy McNally atlas and see an unnamed route leading from Grants Pass to Gold Beach. So I take the exit. What does the exit sign on I-5 say? Does anybody know? I assume it says “Galice Road” because isn’t that the name of the road at that point? At what point does the road actually become “Bear Camp Road?” So if I’m driving on Galice Road and I see a sign that says “Bear Camp Road (NF-23) may be blocked by snowdrifts,” I might say to myself, “OK, I’ll be sure to stay on Galice Road and not turn off on Bear Camp Road,” not realizing that Galice Road and Merlin-Galice Road and NF-23 and Bear Camp Road are all essentially the same route, the one that I am taking. How would I know that, unless I’m using a detailed map, or I’m a local?
glenn, (373), I’ve been posting about this on two forums, both of which you are familiar with. Do your own research.
Frances (376) the administrator of this “personal blog” is free to delete and comments he sees fit, for any reason. By the way, there are times when I think I’m long-winded, but at least I have something to say.
Some answers for the rest of you:
– The signs on the road say that it may be closed by snow in X miles. Before you engage in another foolish, unhelpful debate over the wording on the signs, consider that the uber-brilliant James Kim had to open his car door because it was snowing so hard. Don’t ya think he might have figured that those signs applied even to a super-techie from San Francisco? Nah. Guess not.
– I’m not Mickey M or Observing. If you had a brain in your collective head (more on that one in a bit) you’d see that I’m the grain of sand in your oyster. So go build a damned pearl, smart ones. Even a mollusk knows how to do that, for God’s sake.
– Earlier in this whole colloquy (on the prior thread) someone mentioned “the beehive” in relation to what can be achieved by Internet collaboration. I offer a different model: The corporate meeting. Once you get more than three people in a business meeting, the total I.Q. declines in direct proportion to the number of people in the room.
– If you’re not careful, I just might get pissed off enough to do your work for you and tell you what can be learned from the SAR failures. Wouldn’t that be the shits, though? Imagine having that nasty sociopath, who has already come up with recommendations that would save more lives in one season that any of you sorry-ass blatherers will save in your entire existence on the planet, do the rest of your work for you. So come on, children, do something — anything — useful. I’m waiting.
LOL
Kyle,
yes, I see this the same way but hadn’t even thought of that. Just another way to get confused, of the many possibilities. I used to do databases for emergency 911 call center’s and the naming convention of the road is very important to keep everyone on the same page, and its suprising sometimes how many different people can call one road something different. But when a call comes in, it has to match to the database…..
though, they are not quite that far yet (I dont think)! just another way the naming convention of the road, if its not well understood and standard it can get sticky.
I guess, a traveller from out of the area would see the signs almost the same way a computer would….no previous history, no background, no opinion. It needs to make sense.
nice tribute to James Kim starting 42:15 this InDigital podcast
http://revision3.com/indigital/holiday06
412 / Lisa – see my post 383, I re-watched the CNN video and froze framed it the times they showed the signs and copied it down verbatim.
(417) Thanks a lot for the link Kip…that was well worth watching. He had so much going for him and such an amazing future…just so very sad it had to end so early for him.
413, Kyle, that is an excellent point. I agree, that makes the most sense, you articulated it very well.
413 Kyle: I can’t remember if there are signs that say “Gold Beach” on I-5, I don’t remember any. I do know Bear Camp is a definite hard left off of Galice Rd. and that the snow warning signs start a bit after you are on Bear Camp. When I say Bear Camp I am referring to the entire stretch from where you leave Galice Rd. all the way to Agness, which is how most of the locals reference it.
Re: 413 Kyle
Thanks for the quotes about the signs. I don’t know
what the signs say at the exit. My impression from all
the accounts I’ve read is that the Kims probably knew
they were going to drive Bear Camp Road after they missed
the other road and that:
1)If they were able to see the signs, they assumed that it was too early in the year for the road to be blocked by snow drifts. They probably thought those signs were for the upcoming winter.
2)If they were unable to see the signs it was because when they got into the higher altitudes it started to snow very
heavily. Unfortunately, we do not know when the heavy snow
started in relation to the placement of the signs.
So that issue is still speculation. Only Kati Kim may
remember what they were seeing and thinking.
Re: 413 PacNWer
You don’t know. You don’t truly know the course of
events. So don’t insist that you do.
You do need to know that I truly do not care what you think. And it is my impression that most of other posters feel similarly.
So no matter how much you insult, name-call, and
accuse, etc., etc., ad infitum – I don’t care. It has
no affect.
You are full of yourself, and contrary to your wishes,
you do not affect us the way you hope to, the way you’d
like to.
You are not our “puppet master,” and you never will be.
The primary exit off I-5 for Merlin, Galice and the Galice Rd. is labeled simply “Merlin”…to clarify, NF-23 and Bear Camp road are distinct and different from Galice Rd and require a left turn to get onto. Zoom in on one of the map services and you’ll see it.
Lisa, like the other James Kim hero worshippers here, you have added absolutely, positively nothing to the solution to reduce the likelihood of repeats of what happened. What’s more, you have no interest in doing so.
You would rather that a negligent, neglectful, irresponsible set of parents be humored rather than their behavior analyzed and held forth as an example not to follow. Doing so would save lives, but it would hurt some feelings. Screw the lives, right Lisa?
LOL^2
I found this at wikipedia.com the “definition” of bear camp road.
“Bear Camp Road is a rugged mountain road traversing the Southern Oregon Coast range in Josephine and Curry counties. Bear Camp Road is a combination of BLM Road 34-8-36 (Galice Rd) starting just south of Galice and Forest Service Road 23 which continues from the 12 mile point on 34-8-36 to Agness. The road is named for a camp and viewpoint at the 4,600 foot summit near the Josephine/Curry county line.”
did we already establish it was the combination of roads?
(426) I wonder how much of that information was there before this incident…
considering theres an entry for James Kim, Id say none. But it says he GREW UP in portland oregon.
wonder if hed ever been on Bear Camp Road before.
Tara,
yes that has been established. But I think Kyle brings up the point that no matter what the road is, or what it is known as, a traveller will only know what the map says, and if the sign says “bear camp road” and the traveller thinks they are on Galice Road….the traveller doesn’t care if a sign says “bear camp road may be blocked by snow”
I saw that and I think its a very good point.
Perhaps in the suggestions to BLM that needs to be brought up.
I liked this….
“The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account.”
— Walter Lippmann
(433) Lippmann has perspective and he doesn’t forget I am not surprised he would have made such an assessment.
He is lucky his parents emigrated here…if I have the right guy here.
Walter Lippmann, the son of second-generation German-Jewish parents, was born in New York City on 23rd September, 1889. While studying at Harvard University he became a socialist and was co-founder of the Harvard Socialist Club and edited the Harvard Monthly.
(435) I thought that was the guy…didn’t he start The New Republic? He died a while back…I don’t remember when.
Walter Lippmann died on 14th December, 1974.
426 – 427 The wikipedia article was created on 12/9/06. See post 48+ on that description vs others.
Re: 424 PacNWer
Yes – I – am – a – James – Kim – worshipping – zombie.
I – want – James – Kim – to – be – called – a –
hero – and – therefore – people – will – die.
Look that is as ridiculous as your characterization
of this situation. You like black and white polarization.
Everyone has learned from this situation. Already
lives will be saved.
No less lives will be saved for James Kim being referred
to as heroic or a hero in his devotion for trying to save his family after they got into trouble.
It’s not like people are going to drive recklessly into
snowy mountain areas and say, “I want to be a hero like
James Kim…” Come on, you know better than that.
James Kim is not being called a hero for the mistakes
which got them into trouble, and everyone knows that.
It’s like you’re just stuck on a technicality you can’t
get over. And you should know that you’re not going to
be able to change the opinion most people have – around the
world – because this story became a news item around
the world.
You can always have your opinion. But your mission will
not be accomplished. You are out numbered by people who felt for this family, and were moved by this story. James Kim met tragedy and made phenomenal efforts in the face of it. That’s how heros are made. If he had just sat in the car, he would not be regarded as much as a hero. He would probably be commended for making the best of their situation.
But then there would be the ‘haters’ and their ensuing
diatribes. [diatribe – def. – “a bitter, abusive criticism
or denunciation.” – Webster’s]
We are all working on ideas to try to help stop repeat
situations. We have not added absolutely positively nothing. Just because you try to minimize everything to
the lowest common denominator, doesn’t mean it’s true.
But most importantly, I don’t care if you think I’ve contributed in any way or not. I’m not playing by your
rules, you are. You can dictate the value of what everyone
does in your little world, but not in ours. In ours, it
is just your opinion… And it doesn’t hold as much
weight as you want it to.
Now please don’t have a tantrum – because that won’t help
you get your way.
Your opinion is allowed to be important in your world.
But don’t insist that it’s important in ours.
Really, I don’t want a negative relationship with you.
But these things are true. It’s your perspective, but
you can’t force it on other people.
429 Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.
Re: 421. Paul: Thanks for the info. It sounds like the warning signs about snowdrifts come after you’ve turned off Galice Road onto Bear Camp Road. But are the names of the roads clearly marked so that outsiders not familiar with the area realize they are on Bear Camp Road? It seems that outsiders might not realize that the warning signs about snowdrifts on Bear Camp Road refer to the road they are on and instead assume that they refer to some offshoot they should avoid. It would be helpful if the signs said “THIS ROAD may be blocked by snowdrifts,” or better yet, “This road is closed in winter and unsafe in snow or rain.”
Lets put it this way, I have lived here since 1959 and hunted that whole country up there for many years icluding this year and the road signs are lousy. I will wager when all said and done you will see better signage up there and down in the valley.
Maybe some of these sign change suggestions should be relayed to…
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120606_news_camp_road.25238b1.html
…Burel said the Forest Service and BLM wanted like to hear from the public about what they think should be done with Bear Camp Road and the spur roads off of it.
They can call Patty Burel at the US Forest Service in Medford at (541) 858-2200.
Gayle, Thank you for the info, I will give them my suggestions.
443 This link about the gate crap makes me sick. I will say it again and again THAT GATE HAS NEVER BEEN LOCKED.
The snow signs are on Bear Camp. The turn off TO Bear Camp from the Galice Rd. is marked reasonably well. Signage once you get up onto Bear Camp is pretty pathetic as Bob H. states, but the snow signs are pretty straightforward and all but impossible to miss.
Bob R-
Having the perspective of someone who knows and who has lived in the area is invaluable, thanks for joining us and contributing….BLM may not like what you have to say, but it needs to be heard.
Paul, you must know the area also?
Wow – quite the discussion here!
I think for the new blog that will focus on SAR cases specifically I may need to find ways to keep personal stuff separate – it makes it harder to stick to the facts though it also has made the conversation pretty lively. I think this Kim case is unique in many ways though and probably this discussion is also … unique!
D.H. thanks for the apology. FYI I’m registered at the Mailtribune forum as well as Joe Duck, not Joe.
Nice to see Bob Hollenbeck here – I think he’s the only person here who has been in the Big Windy Drainage and I was hoping he’d share any ideas he has about how long he thinks it took James Kim to hike down to where he was found.
RE: The I-5 Exit sign at Merlin, I’m pretty sure, does NOT mention the coast and says simply “Merlin”. Somebody suggested earlier they may have left I-5 at Hugo but I think an interview with Kati said it was Merlin exit.
Joseph, that is a tough question to answer about how long it took him to get almost to the bottom of the canyon. If everybody would look at the 12 pictures, #8 I believe it shows how rough that drainage is. You can see some rock cliffs in the creek area. I would venture to say from the County Line Road down to where they found him maybe a day. By this time I would say he was pretty weak so he moved pretty slow. That canyon is so brushy and steep. (thats why I hunt out there every year, lots of game)
Bob do you go down into that same canyon and hike down along the creek or stay up on the higher ground usually?
I always stay on the high ground, like I said it’s to brushy. I have been down to Black Bar and fished down river from the Lodge and it’s rough hiking down along the river. Huge boulders, and lots of rattle snakes, see them in the summertime only.
Bamadad – your comment 355 went into moderation automatically (I think due to having many links which can trigger a filter) and I just approved it. Note I removed the signature line that said “The Joe Duck blog” to avoid confusion even though I understand what you meant there.
Since your long comment is now so far up feel free to repost and I’ll try to approve it faster.
This next year when I go out there hunting I am going to take a vehile that has Onstar and try it out and see if I can get out when you push the emergency button.
449 Bob-
Know it well, but not as well as you, I live in PDX, but have run the Rogue probably 30 to 35 times over the last 25 years…have also run the Illinois once. Have been over Bear Camp too many times, when I first started traversing it, it was almost all gravel, and not very good gravel at that. It is a spectacularly beautiful place, I love the Rogue River and the surrounding area.
Paul, your right it is a beautiful place. My dad hunted bear back in the 60s all over that country. But just think they did it at night time with bear dogs. I tell you what, I would never hunt it at night, not those steep canyons! 🙂
Bamadad – looks like your 355 post is there now and also in 305 as well. Now I see why you mentioned it. What a great letter as a sample to send.
Joe – thank you for getting those posts unmoderated. I did notice, though, that while the name of your blog was removed from the the 355 post, it is still on the 305 post. Thought I’d mention in case you’d like to remove the signature on that one as well.
Bob – thanks, really interesting.
Paul – Sorry not to answer your question about how locals are feeling about the story, the fact is I don’t really have a feel for that yet.
The quick answer, just from my perspective, is that locally the story is seen as “over” and there are not any big conerns about the management of the SAR effort.
Saw a small bit on news (Mon night I think) with the Sheriff suggesting the Oregonlive/Oregonian story was unfair.
I’ve only talked to a few friends about this but frankly I don’t think it struck the same chord here that it did elsewhere.
Thx Maggie!
457 Bob: Yes, that is something I’ve tried to convey throughout, how brutal bushwacking through that drainage must have been. I have tried, “tried” being the operative word, to hike up some of the side creeks and streams whilst rafting the Rogue (though not B.W.)…blackberry, poison oak, boulders as big as cars or bigger in places…truthfully I’ve never made it too far up any of them…so when I think about James, starving, wet and cold, wearing sneakers slogging 5+ miles down that drainage, I just shake my head in wonderment. Incredible.
459 / Joe – Thanks, appreciate the comments on the local perception, it’s interesting. Hope I didn’t offend anyone with my comments on rural vs city / Willamette Valley vs the rest of the state.
Bob, I would really be interested to hear if Onstar would work out that way. I keep thinking some summer I’d like to drive down (I live in Portland) to see the Redwoods, so it would be the perfect time to check out the Rogue River while I’m out that way. It sounds like Bear Camp Road can be tough even in the summer, so I don’t know whether I’d really plan on trying to take it (definitely not in my Mustang), but I might at least go down it a bit to get an idea.
Paul, your description of the terrain grabs me every time. Definitely different from a stroll through a typical forest preserve or going a little off the path. I don’t get how he did it either, other than sheer determination.
Joe, thanks for sharing what’s going on locally. I wondered if there would be more of an outrage or even less with proximity, but that sounds about like out this way.
Re: 305/355 bamadad – I’m sorry that I am not reading this blog every hour. 😉 But I did read your post. I tend to be a bit slow and deliberate in my thinking, so in my mind I am not quite up Bear Camp Road and certainly not to the SAR effort. As you can see in my post 294, in my mind I am still on the road between Roseburg and Galice.
The more I think about the official state map published by ODOT (and other maps), the more I think the map was the start of the tragedy, although by no means the only problem. The official state map is intended for tourism, for people visiting from out of state, right? One could expect that roads on this “official” map meet some sort of basic standards, i.e., are intended for general use.
Obviously, Bear Camp Road isn’t intended for “general” use, certainly not at all in the “winter” (which probably extends from November through April) and not even in the summer for the casual traveler. I’d say that Bear Camp Road (and roads like it) are intended for 1) logging, 2) sporting men and women who are looking for adventure, for example, rafting the Rogue, and 3) people with local knowledge. Thus Bear Camp Road shouldn’t have been on that map. (And, no, the “close in winter” disclaimer isn’t enough, as the road was neither closed nor was it winter.)
I don’t have a specific recommendation, yet, but I am leaning towards something like the following: If a road doesn’t meet some basic level of usability, safety, signage, and emergency service, then it doesn’t belong on an official state map, nor as a recommended or shown route on any general-purpose printed or online map.
On the other hand, such a road does belong on BLM and USFS maps, topo maps, and other similar specialized maps used by people who are looking to go into rugged areas.
The point is that seeing a solid bold line from Merlin to Gold Beach on an official state map sets up certain expectations, and what one sees and encounters afterwards are filtered through those expectations. I can imagine the Kims getting increasingly nervous as they went up Bear Camp Road: No other traffic. Dark. Limited visibility. Warning signs. But it was getting late and they were, what?, only an hour or so from the coast. So close to a nice warm bed at their reserved lodge. The kids are tired and crying. At what point do the warnings get to be strong enough that one makes a choice that, the official state map be damned, this road isn’t a through road and it is time to turn around? And what if by the time you reach that point of turning around, it is too late to do so?
Again, my hunch is that if the gate had been locked, they would have continued on NF-23 and possibly made it through or, more likely, gotten stuck or turned around. But because the gate was open, they probably continued on before the warning signs were strong enough, thinking they were on the right road and that if they just pushed on everything would be ok.
P.S. For part 2 of my route analysis, I am trying to get hour-by-hour weather data to get a sense of what the snow level was. The topo maps will provide elevations, and also show all the side roads. If those with local knowledge could help fill in other details – for example, where the signs are and what they say – I think we can get a pretty accurate idea of this part of their journey. Of course, there is going to be some guess work. For example, it is still uncertain whether the Kims got to where they stopped their car via BLM 34-8-36 or via some other road that looped back, as some have suggested.
Kyle 415 and replies. Yes, I agree. I hadn’t even thought of that until I read the reference yesterday, which is why I asked about the exact wording.
Paul, thanks for the info on the signs. I understand they are impossible to miss. But the point being made is that if you don’t know that you are on Bear Camp Road (or even NF-23), then you don’t know that the signs are talking about the road you are on.
I’m not even talking about the Kims and whether they had any doubt whether the warning signs applied to the road they were on. The general point is: Unless it is clear to travellers that they are on “Bear Camp Road” and/or “NF-23”, those gigantic impossible-to-miss warning signs can certainly be misinterpreted by intelligent people.
RobZ, do you have Google Earth? It has built in elevation info that seems reasonably accurate. Might be helpful for you as you try to guess what roads they were going up and down in the BLM network (after missing the fork). For *me* anyway, that is easier than looking at topo maps.
RobZ (464) exactly. very well said.
RobZ, Bob, Navi, Susan, Paul, RodG
My training is as an Army Ranger and although I am 3000 miles away, I can see the Oregon map and its indications of straight shot (though mindful of surrounding high elevations.) So without other knowledge, I would have exited I-5, ……but as I have said from watching the videos and photos, hope I would have turned back as soon as Bear Camp narrowed to one lane. (Night time, fuel, distance to travel, weather, family aboard, my own long experience in winter in Colorado and the Alps, etc., count as well) But who is to judge, we have all taken risky shortcuts. That is when I sighed, “Oh, my God” at what the Kims put themselves thru.
The intersection further up is a test as well. If I got that far “up the creek”, so to speak, I would have to get out of the car, stand in front of it with a flashlight and figure it out. Then again, I carry a compass in the glovebox.
European countries, have signs which show the main route via a heavier black curve and the lesser road with fainter lines/curves on a yellow triangle route marker. European roads are full of these intersections where the main route looks like a cowpath and the side road looks like a boulevard. Built up areas have dozens of these signs to show the main route thru a city. They work well and you can zip right thru.
I am thankful Bob is back, with local knowledge and great, measured judgment. BTW, I also sighed when I saw that Big Windy drainage on the posted topo map, those contour lines are so close together at a few points–meaning likely cliffs on either side of the stream, which reportedly is neck deep in spots. That is rugged. He made amazing progress. Hallucinations given his status were certainly possible. peace to you, fella.
Anyway I hope several of you, if you want, will grab what you want of CMT 305 and send it out. Add your name without the JD Blog signature.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166585109174210.xml&coll=7&thispage=2
pertinent part:
Governor weighs in
A spokeswoman said Gov. Ted Kulongoski plans to take a hard look at the “after incident” reports on recent search and rescue missions in Oregon to “identify whether there are gaps in the system.”
“It’s too premature to speculate now,” said Anna Richter Taylor, the governor’s communications director. But Kulongoski will look at whether the state needs to play a bigger role in covering the cost of searches and in ensuring communication among the agencies involved.
This is a good sign.
Joe, your CMT 454. Thanks. Hope some posters here ship out CMT 305 as they see fit… or cut and paste it with the other ideas here.
Can you tell how many folks visit your blog each day? What was the range from the highest to lowest over the last weeks? This is my first time taking more than a casual interest in a blog and participating. Whatever the number, it has been a good experience and I thank you.
4 letters to the editor in the Oregonian today (don’t have link at moment, read them in the paper – see OregonLive), on the article that ran Sunday. 2 are critical of SARs oversight, 1 is critical of the Kims, and the last falls somewhere in between. They echo the range of opinions we have seen here.
Re: 470 Letters to the Editor link…
http://www.oregonlive.com/letters/oregonian/?archive
I have a question I haven’t seen anyone else address here or elsewhere…
On Sat morning after James left on foot for help, Kati is reported to have said she heard a heliocopter 1-2 hours later and failed when trying to signal it. How far away at that point was James and could he have heard it, too? My guess is he was still on the road. I am guessing he did not hear it since he didn’t turn around and return to the car to assist in signaling should another be heard. If he heard them while in the drainage area, was there any evidence he attempted to signal? How far does sound travel in the mountains?
(450) Joe, I noticed when I was on that mountain climbing site, they had a whole area just for “venting”, like those that wanted to get nasty could and those that didn’t want to read that sort of stuff could just stay away from that area. Personally, I like this format. There’s only one person trying to rile everyone up, and he’s very good at it. Actually much better at it than we are at ignoring him. So I’m assuming since he seems to suck all of us in sooner or later, we don’t really mind him that much. I’ve got used to him, you don’t really needt to read it anymore, he never says anything new, same story, same insults, and it gets the conversation very lively.
(470,471) Thanks for the heads up and the links. I read through the editorials…interesting about placing blame. I think that is right where everybody gets off the track.
I don’t think this is about placing blame…I think it about elevating the mistakes, issues, etc to the surface so that it can be corrected for the future.
For some people they think the blames falls soley on the Kim’s and because they made a mistake in the first place any other mistakes that follow don’t matter – everyone should get a free pass…after all if he didn’t make that initial mistake in the first place, etc…
That is the part of the equation that I find so very odd. Some want to forget that these are PAID professionals supposedly doing a job and a pretty important job where lives are at stake.
Should a paid professional who makes a series of mistakes be allowed to continue making those mistakes in the future?
I have been asking a lot of people this question lately…if you were lost and/or a family member needed a SAR effort would you want Sarah Rubrecht coordinating the effort?
The one thing that is for certain in this sad story – James Kim will never make this mistake again.
Isn’t it time someone put a stop to the mistakes that Sarah Rubrecht has made?
bamadad – first, thanks for several interesting insights.
RE: Blog stats: I do get stats from WordPress and they show a huge increase in traffic which then subsided and went back up in part due to the Mount Hood missing climber tragedy.
Usually the blog would have 100 people per day up to about 200-300 if I’m blogging a technology conference, but in the days leading up to finding the Kims it went up very fast.
These are rounded to nearest 100 and don’t include the RSS ‘feeds’ which might add another 20-50 per day or so.
Dec 1: 200
Dec 2: 400
Dec 3: 1300
Dec 4: 4400
Dec 5: 9400
Dec 6: 21700
Dec 7: 17100
Dec 8: 10600
Dec 9: 5000
Dec10: 3900
Dec11: 4500
Dec12: 4800
Dec13: 3500
Dec14: 2700
Dec15: 2400
Dec16: 1800
Dec17: 3000
Dec18: 3700
Dec19: 3400
I’d guess it’ll go down a lot as media interest in the two Oregon stories goes away.
Mr. Bob Hollenbeck, Peter Sleeth would like to talk to you about the info in posts #836 & #442. “Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.” Perhaps you could call him or email him at petersleeth@news.oregonian.com
I saw your posts here and emailed Peter, he emailed me back and he seems interested in this info, if you wish to contact him.
Peter Sleeth, Reporter
The Oregonian
1320 S.W. Broadway
Portland, Ore. 97201
503.294.4119
A report on a different website generates another question for Mrs. Kim to answer if she should ever choose to grant a candid interview to a real journalist, i.e., one who asks all the relevant questions:
10. Had you or your husband ever taken the Bear Camp Road route in the past?
Oops, I guess it’s not a different website. It’s this website. I stand corrected. I looked and didn’t see it here, but didn’t look hard enough. One more reason I shouldn’t be on an SAR team.
If that report is true — a big if, considering the ability of rumors to circulate — it would cast a very different light on why the Kims were on Bear Camp Road that night, would it not?
LOL^3
Bob Hollenbeck (#442), I hope you can provide verification for what you wrote. That claim is highly relevant and would be quite damaging to the Kims if true. False rumors are so easy to get started in situations like this, as I’m sure you know. I hope you’ll contact the reporter at the Oregonian and help him investigate the claim’s accuracy.
Bob, when you say “family members down South,” do you mean Kim family members in San Francisco?
442 / 476: There are all kinds of tangents to consider IF they had been on BC before, but probably the most important, and the reason I question that assertion is:
– They would KNOW it is no short-cut. It would beg the question why they wouldn’t just turn around after they missed the Hwy 42 exit near Roseburg and backtrack. It is a solid hour, minimum, from Roseburg to the Merlin turn off. There are several exits where you could get off the freeway and head back the other way reasonably soon.
Anyone who has taken BC to Gold Beach knows it a very stressful, winding, twisting road / knows it is remote / knows it goes up quite high….even in summer that is obvious. Highway 42 is not that much faster, but it is by far a better route. I can’t imagine that anyone who HAD been over BC would CHOOSE it as their route late in the evening with small kids in the back.
Bob made a very specific statement, and it ought to be checkable by a third party or otherwise verifiable. If the Kims had been on Bear Creek Road in the past, then Mrs. Kim’s story to police and others about how and why they got there on Nov. 25th would fall apart.
If Bob’s story is true, even the diehards would drop out of the Hero Club.
LOL
Oh, and from Roseburg to Gold Beach is 4 hours via Hwy. 42 and four hours via Bear Camp Road, in good weather. Therefore, if the Kims intentionally used Bear Camp Road, the great irony is that it never would have been a time-saver anyhow.
If they’d actually been on the road in the past and still used it, as opposed to simply picking it off the map (in Roseburg, not afterwards, is what I suspect), then we could add that to the heap of their misjudgments.
But, again, at the moment Bob Hollenbeck has done nothing other than offer an intriguing story. Nail it down, Bob.
Several people have asked why they’d keep going as the road conditions worsened. I still think the following scenario is very possible since Kati said they “turned around” and thought they were just 4 miles from Galice after they stopped the car:
They headed up on NF23
They turned around on NF23 when they realized the conditions were too dangerous to keep going.
Now heading back EAST on NF23, they took the wrong turn and headed left on the logging road. (or perhaps they tried to turn back at that logging road NF23 junction and got confused about which way they’d come up).
They continue for so many miles down the logging road because they thought they were heading DOWN and back to Galice the same way they came up.
joe (#487), I’m not sure that makes logical sense. If they were eastbound on NF23, they’d have had to do another 180-degree (or close to it) turn to go down the spur. That couldn’t have been inadvertent.
Similarly, if they had tried to turn around at the junction, there were two westbound choices and one eastbound choice. Even in the snow, a 180-degree turn is a 180-degree turn. There’d have been only one path for them to take. Again, not inadvertent.
I say that they either inadvertently took the logging road while going westbound, or purposely used that path after having retreated while on Bear Camp Road.
Unless Kati Kim gives a candid interview to a reporter who will ask all of the pertinent questions without fear or favor, we’re probably not going to know. I’m not sure it matters too terribly much; it would be a footnote at best.
If Hollenbeck’s story winds up being true, that would overshadow all of this. Even if his story can’t be verified, with respect to the Kims the main event is their ever having been on Bear Camp Road to begin with. It was negligent and irresponsible, probably an outgrowth of the sunk-cost fallacy that I mentioned in prior postings here and elsewhere.
Or, as a different poster put it, “get-there-itis,” a dangerous phenomenon occasionally seen among aviators.
#487 – Joe: I can’t provide link proof on this because KGW does not still have the video up, or at least I can’t find it, but I watched the entire long press conf by the OSP after they de-briefed Kati. My memory is that she said they BACKED down Bear Camp when the realized they were in trouble. They could not get turned around because of the snow. Several posters have alluded to James having the door open going forward, which makes no sense, opening the door does not improve visibility in a blizzard, but it is often a necessity and/or improves visibility when backing up.
I am less clear on why, in her account, they turned down the road they were found on. IF they were able to back-down BC why would you not just keep doing that. It is such a steep grade that it would not be long before you would drop below the snow line….that and you know you are headed back to civilization. Perhaps they thought it might lead to Galice, but why would you take a chance on that in an unfamiliar area with snow coming down hard and kids in the back ? There’s elements to her account that I can’t make sense of.
If anyone can find a link to the lengthy press conf by OSP after they de-briefed Kati Kim please pass it along.
Paul (489), the reason they didn’t take the sure route back is probably because then they’d have had to stay in a Motel 6 in Roseburg or Grant’s Pass, and that’s no place for a hero.
(489) (487) obviously they were very lost and confused. The weather conditions deteriorating, etc. They probably figured by continuing to drive around they were just worsening their situation so they stopped and hoped that daylight would provide the information they needed to get out of there or that is they were on the road they thought they were on they had to figure somebody would be driving by sooner or later.
All of this of course is pure speculation. Not sure what purpose this really serves unless someone is preparing for a lawsuit and if that is the case then this information will come out anyway in depositions, etc.
I think everyone agrees that the signage can be improved, that maps need to be made clearer (both print and online) and of course wiki keeps getting more information.
The other lessons that can be learned directly from the Kim’s is trip preparedness…everyone should take time to think about the risks of any road trip and do as much to prepare as possible…with all of our gadgets and convenience we just tend to go with the flow and always think we can get out of anything we can get ourselves into. We live in a pretty cruel place and it is up to all of us to learn from this.
489 – Paul, the only thing that’s made sense to me is that they maybe only thought that they were on Bear Camp Road but actually took that right onto BLM 34-8-36 at the fork, thinking it was Bear Camp Road. As the road twists and sometimes loops, maybe they backed up off of one of the additional spurs off of BLM 34-8-36 but somehow wound up back on it in in the wrong direction in sheer confusion. Since they were so desperately lost, I doubt that Kati would be able to accurately recall which roads they took. I doubt we will ever know for certain.
493 – that theory continues to intrigue me and seems plausible, esp after you look at the pictures of that junction and how poorly signed it is. I’ve never been down that particular road so I can’t say how that jibes with Kati’s account of backing down BC.
(487), (489) Someone should drive up there and try to re-trace their steps. In the dark preferrably and under good clear conditions. They should has GPS and navigation technology with them to make sure they can get back out.
It would be good if two people took the time and tried to recreate why they made their choices and what led them to the spot where they ended up.
Re: 451 Bob
I really want to thank you for all your knowledge and
information. It is so important and helpful to have
your and Joe’s local perspectives.
I wanted to ask you, given what you said about James’
progress in the canyon. What you thought about why it
why so slow going for the SAR and they were able to
make so little progress. Here is a quote from one of
them:
“‘I’m amazed,’ searcher Robert Graham told reporters. ‘We spent hours down there and made very little distance. … The conditions were very rough. It’s been cold. The terrain is so rugged, just spending one day out here is very exhausting.'”[“Coroner: Kim died of exposure, hypothermia”
CNN]
The only people who got anywhere near him on the first
full search day were those coming from the Rogue River.
They said that they got within about a half mile of
where he was found. But they were blocked by the cliffs.
Re: 456, 463 Paul, Maggie
I live in Portland too. Nice to know you guys are around.
Re: 468 Barnadad
Yes, I think that’s a great idea too. I heard Kulongoski
talking about it yesterday on public radio. He said then
SAR efforts wouldn’t be so dependent on individual counties, and their ability to handle it. Excellent idea.
Re: 474 Glenn
I agree.
Re: 484 PacNWer
To the contrary on two counts. It is possible that if
the Kims had presumably traveled both Bear Camp and Highway
42 before in better weather, and knew that there was
ultimately not much of a difference time wise, they
may not have realized just how much more difficult Bear
Camp would be, as opposed to Highway 42. It is possible
that even with the warning signs they thought it might
be better maintained, or it was too early in the season
for it to be blocked.
Also, I do not technically belong in your “Hero Club.”
Because although I do think James Kim’s efforts were
extremely heroic, I do not and would not go around
worshipping him as a hero.
I think he was a very good man, a precious man, a very
honorable man. I don’t at all think he deserved the fate that befell him.
Here is a quote from one of his friends who knew him well:
“The point is this. During his life, everyone who knew him felt the considerable warmth of James Kim, who died alone in the cold. Nothing could be less fair.”
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,72253-0.html?tw=rss.index
My main disagreement with your treatment of James Kim is
this:
It’s not right to reduce people to the mistakes they made.
In this instance, James Kim and his family do not deserve
to be trashed, bashed, and insulted.
Everyone has learned from their mistakes. The general,
most important lessons from their mistakes are easy to learn from.
You don’t need to go over them again, and again, and again, bashing them everytime. That is not helpful. That is not
constructive.
That boils down to just bashing, trashing, and insulting
people who just went through a horrific tragedy.
And really what they were doing and the mistaken choices
they made were a lot more innocent and confusing than
driving down the highway at 92 miles an hour like you did.
The way you are going about it, you are really only teaching
people that you like to trash people.
495 – Glenn, I’ve thought about doing that as a detour part of a trip I’m hoping to take down to the Redwoods, but until I know more about how that road is in the summer, I’m still a bit leery (and definitely wouldn’t try it in the useless Mustang that I have). It’s not impossible (but maybe not likely?) that they took the another route to get to the same place, as I posted back on the old page (again, this was just a possible route I traced in Google Earth to get to the same place, and I’m not even saying this is it – just interesting/possible):
If I had the time, the right vehicle, just enough guts and an over abundance of supplies, I might try both just to see.
#496 You go girl !! Well said.
On google maps, 34-8-36 is labelled as 34-8-36 until the spot the car was found. If (IF!) there is any signage at all in the BLM maze, it’s possible they were just staying on 34-8-36, since that is what the road is apparently called before the infamous fork at NF23.
Now, once they are on the BLM maze, there are any number of ways, depending on various forks they took, to arrive at the final spot. But it seems very possible to me that they followed (either by signs or by luck) 34-8-36 all the way to the final spot, went past it on one or the other spurs from there, eventually “backing down” one of those spurs and returning to the final spot.
As I’ve said, we’ll probably never know, regardless of what Kati says, but I’m guessing they missed the fork at NF23, and all tales after that happened in the BLM maze.
If you haven’t looked at google maps in map mode (not satellite mode), I encourage you to do so. It is very easy to see what a maze it is in the BLM, and see there are many many ways for them to get where they did.
And as I said earlier, google earth has elevation info if you care to try to figure out where they went “up” and backed “down”.
499 – Rodney, that’s been my hunch exactly. I’ll never know.
Here’s another photo of the area that I found:
499 – and when you look at those BLM roads on Google Maps it truly is a maze !!! It looks like somebodys science experiment gone bad.
Re: 484 PacNWer
I want to clafify – it good to discuss details
of what may or may not have happened, in order
to learn and help determine where improvements
could be made.
It is a different thing – to just trash everyone
involved in this discussion including us – and
even more so the Kims – who have suffered so horribly
and severely.
Your discourse so far today has been honorable
towards us, and that is respectable and commendable,
the exception being your willingness to trash the Kims again so eagerly over whether they had or had not used
Bear Camp before.
Pics taken in the midst of the search… Some how the road areas being discussed.
http://www.kval.com/news/local/4836996.html
Re: 503 typos
I wanted to resubmit that first line:
I want to clarify – it is good to discuss details
Well, what can’t be accomplished by man has been accomplished by nature. No one will be taking this route again this winter… The BLM portion of the road has been closed due to a rock slide.
http://www.mailtribune.com/update/update.html#road
Interesting the mention of gates though 🙂
Not sure if you’ve all seen the latest news that rock slides have closed the Galice access road. . . so for those of us who drive that route. . . it’s back to the detours.
http://www.mailtribune.com/update/update.html#road
(506), (507) Some might say devine intervention…
That has been a recurring problem on that road for years.
Re: 489 (re: 487) The videos on KGW are here…
http://www.kgw.com/blcS.sc?search=James+Kim&cat=multi
these are the longest craziest links EVER but they have some pictures of Big Windy Creek. The first link actually has a rogue river photo album. Scroll through the images and if my memory is right there is a picture of Little Windy Creek also.
THe second link is someones personal blog with a photo at the very bottom from a “canyoneering” trip. here is what the writer days about the Big WIndy Creek:
“Next we continued downstream to Big Windy Creek, where Kate led a canyoneering expedition to freeze the boyscouts into submission 🙂 Canyoneering, by the way, involves equal parts climbing/scrambling/bouldering and swimming in fresh snowmelt. Fortunately, the weather remained hot. As an endnote to the expedition, all scouts and scouters plunged from the Big Windy jump rock into the Rogue, which felt dreamily warm compared to Big Windy’s icy waters.”
it kinda explains that they had to get into the water, and is the Big WIndy Jump rock perhaps the wall that stopped the SAR volunteers from going UP the drainage?
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wildrogue.com/pages/images/32_jpg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wildrogue.com/pages/32_jpg.htm&h=324&w=432&sz=39&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=5ggr-3D2V8zpyM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbig%2Bwindy%2Bcreek%2Boregon%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLR,GGLR:2005-52,GGLR:en%26sa%3DN
http://listening-for-water.blogspot.com/2006/06/first-trip-june-2nd-5-day-rogue-river.html
This link takes you to the Oregon State Police news releases. Scroll down to the right dates to see what they say in the Kim case.
http://www.flashalert.net/news.html?id=1002
Has anyone here looked into why Google Maps started showing the BC route this summer??
Here is the written form of the part of the final press
conference where they include the information they
say Kati gave them:
“The family became stranded after turning onto Bear Camp Road, a narrow and winding route over the mountains from Grants Pass. They had taken the road after missing the turnoff on Interstate 5 for state Highway 42 in Roseburg, which would have taken them to Coos Bay.
Hastings addressed several mysteries that have arisen in the saga, attributing his information to Kati Kim. She has not spoken to the media since being rescued.
‘Once on Bear Camp Road, the Kims made a wrong turn onto a logging road and the weather worsened,’ Hastings said. ‘The family noticed signs indicating that the road is often closed in winter weather, and decided they should get out of the area.’
By that time, it was snowing hard and the car became stuck when they tried to turn around. It took a long time — and a lot of gas — for the Kims to get the car out of the snow, and by then they were concerned they didn’t have enough gas to make it back down the mountain.
Hastings said the family drove a little farther back up the road, until they found a fork where they stopped. ‘They thought their silver Saab station wagon would be visible there,’ he said.”
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/07/BAGLKMRFBK7.DTL
Re: 498 Thanks Paul!
Re: Everyone else – there are so many posts – that as
we all know – it is not really possible to respond to
them all. I just want to say that I do read and appreciate all of them.
My husband and I use Bear Camp road all summer long to get to Agness. Last summer, the detour around the land slides were finally fixed after having been closed. The road received a significant amount of maintenance and grading. As addicts of the internet, we frequently would “google” map the Agness area and see what directions would come up. We noticed something that we felt was more than a coincidence. The maps at Google changed in June 2006 to reflect a route over Bear Camp, instead of routing passenger traffic over to Crescent City and then up the coast. And then, last summer, we saw scores of folks from out of state driving those back roads. . . and looking rather surprised at the terrain.
I’ve contacted NavTeq to try to figure out how they get their information but have been unable to get beyond their PR representative. I would be money that something changed with the designation of those roads with the BLM/USF in May of this year. My hunch is that it goes back to money and the ability to change some of designations in order to proceed with logging. Whatever led to the chain of events, the placed Bear Camp in NavTeq’s data base in June of 2006, is likely to repeat itself in another location, as the push and pull for logging on federal lands continues.
While the Kim’s may not have utilized the online mapping programs, this is a great opportunity to prevent people who DO from getting caught in the politics of the BLM/USF. Any ideas or resources?
Silly post, I suppose. Hopefully, it doesn’t sound too far out there.
Quote from the Farmer’s Almanac
In rivers and bad government the lighest things float to the top…
Of course Johnny Cash says it better than me…
heather
thats not silly. I read about, and I will try to find and post, some kind of litigation? recently about Josephine County changing some regulations in order to get logging to continue in that area (so they could continue to get the money. THe changes were illegal.
Ill go find that info….
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
This article from Dec 4 has more detail from Kati Kim than any other I have found.
Heather,
that does not sound out there, I appreciate your thinking. Most importantly people need to know that source data is coming from different companies or governments and what you see on google or mapquest is not always what “is” or portrayed as it “should” be.
I thought the response to Bob from the Oregon DOT was very telling, in that the route on the state map is not portrayed in a way that makes sense, because its partly a federal road, and its like they dont really know what to do with it on the state map, it creates confusion.
Anyway, what is the point if kati and james took that road before, so we can print it in the newspaper that james is not a hero? What is the point?
I understand people trying to retrace their steps to try to understand what went wrong in order to fix it. But, once again, Kati Kim does not owe anyone an explanation. This is not like the Runaway Bride who intentionally disappeared and the community spent thousands trying to find her then lied to people about who kidnapped her.
It makes no difference if the Kim’s took bear camp before. Locals have said the route is confusing, another person died up there and in the same year a family was lost. Give up your quest pac. No one else is hung up on the word hero because no one else worries about their own worth being tied up with the fact that a stranger is being called one, some imperfect stranger out there that people have the nerve to call brilliant! ouch!
If kati ever wants to talk to anyone, good for her, but what scares me, so much more than james being called a hero, is why a person out there is so mad about it. Stop the presses “james kim was a human, mistakes were made, some would tender, not charastic of a hero”
!!??!!??
More ironies for the Hero Club for Men to ponder. The eastern terminus of Bear Creek Road is 8 miles from Grants Pass, OR. Check your Mapquest, my techie children. You’ll see that from Merlin, OR to Gold Beach via Grants Pass and U.S. 199/U.S. 101 is just under 3 hours, while Bear Creek Road is listed at about 2-1/2 hours in good weather.
Even after missing Hwy. 42, they’d have made better time in the weather conditions that were obvious by looking out the window if they’d just continued to Grant’s Pass and taken 199 to 101 and doubled back from Crescent City. If it turns out that this was the second time they’d been on Bear Creek Road, then they’d have known how punishing a trip they were in for even before they ignored the map legend and the three warning signs.
I keep forgetting: They’re brilliant heroes and I am a sociopathic idiot. But guess who’s alive?
As for you Lisa, you’re in the Hero Club for Men. At least admit that much. You absolutely refuse to see what is plainly clear, which is that James and Kati Kim were negligent and irresponsible that night, not to mention just plain blockheaded. They made a series of decisions that can only be characterized as stupid, most likely because they were so intent on getting to that resort that they abandoned their common sense.
That sort of thing has happened before, and it will happen again. But some honest reporting and dissemination of prudent cautions would almost certainly save lives in the future. You and many others on this website refuse to see it, and your refusal is rooted in your absolute unwillingness to see poor Kati Kim’s feelings hurt.
Someone’s dead, and two defenseless, vulnerable and dependent children almost died because of her and husband’s negligence. Her feelings are secondary, at best, and yours are irrelevant.
493, Maggie, I think that makes sense.
It’s Miller Time!!! LOL
tara-
Thanks you for helping to find the information. Last summer, it was crazy on Bear Camp. There were all these little Honda Civics and Acura driving really really slow with people who were so confused. We always stop at the top of Bear Camp Road at the look out. It’s beautiful and a great way to get ready for the REALLY twisty stuff at the end. . .you would be SHOCKED by all the folks who asked us where they were and how much farther to Gold Beach.
That road is great as a logging road, but not for passenger traffic. There are no signs. It’s easy to get lost. I’m always terrified that someone is just going to drive off the side of the mountain.
My husband and I talked about this last summer. Someone’s going to get lost and die, now that this road is showing up on Google, etc.
Let me know if you figure out how the road designation change, tara!!!
523 – Naaaah, it’s gotta be Old Milwaukie or Old English 800.
Hero…see post (333) it’s right there in black and white.
James Kim definitely fulfills one or more of the definitions according to Webster. If someone doesn’t like that they should petition Webster to change it.
James Kim is a hero by definition.
Lisa there is no shame in recognizing the definition of the word…and of course I wouldn’t think anyone (with a brain) would go around worshiping anyone. A true hero certainly wouldn’t want that. 🙂
(525) Could be thunderbird…for a dolla twenty five!
Now Paul that is funny.
A little levity seemed in order…(or maybe it’s Nighttrain)
Re: 526 Glenn, 520 Mapper
I don’t think there’s any shame recognizing the definition
of the word! I don’t have any problems with people saying
that James Kim is a hero.
Lisa, me neither!
It more that it wasn’t my main focus and wasn’t something
I had done… I think there’s truth to it – it’s just not
the main point for me… And it was being asserted that it
was in an extreme way.
I really have the utmost respect and caring for him…
Lisa,
Its pacs main point, he thinks we all worship james kim because the media called him a hero, he thinks we are unable to form our own thoughts, and should be outraged by the hero message. If your not outraged by it, he thinks this is your main point.
you have made many fine points
I have to call it a night!
But I’ll be in checking in later…
p.s.
Thanks mapper!
Mr. Kim was indeed a great Hero!!
PacBoy is simply jealous because the Kim family had many people who loved them and joined together to search for them. Pac secretly knows he is not worthy of such affection because he is a sociopath. He wishes he were normal but it is not to be, so the next best thing is to despise those who are loved.
(529) wink wink nudge nudge
536, glenn, you are being SO good!
Into Thin Ozone … Continued
Revenge of the Luddites !!!
Did any of you internet microbrains realize that all of this would never have happened if it hadn’t been for that !*#@!@ crappy invention called the Automobile?
If those unfortunate dimwits had been walking or riding a horse or riding bicycles, by golly, they would never been on that cold road at night or they woulda turned around mighty quick.
So go ahead, sue Detroit. That’s who to blame.
What impresses me most about how people conduct their lives is not what they do or what decisions they make but whether they are doing their utmost lovingly best with what is at hand at the moment.
The sheriff the night he was watching a football game on TV failed that test.
The stranded James aced it.
#442… you’re being quoted here…
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003&st=820
kip
i agree. well said.
540… sorry, scroll down to post 826
536, I’ve already done my amateur psychological analysis (300), and made my peace (473) and I’m now going to follow your excellent example. (I know I promised that before)
just do a little LOL…seems 2 work 4 me
544, you are my new HERO, a shining example of self control
Into Thin Ozone … Chapter III
Internet Bozos of the World … Unite!
Next invention of the Internet Bozo hall of fame is… the SLAPPER. (built by the same manufacturer of the CLAPPER)
The SLAPPER is a remarkable piece of high-tech robotics that adapts seamlessly to the dashboard of most car makes/models. Once the driver enters the precise latitude and longitude coordinates of their destination, the SLAPPER will get you there. Its precision GPS system will trigger the powerful artificial intelligence algorithms built into its digital brain. When the driver makes a wrong turn, the SLAPPER robotic hand will slap the driver once, gently across the face. IF the driver persists in the wrong direction, the SLAPPER will slap the driver more forcefully, and again, until the driver makes a U-Turn.
Also built into this gadget’s fuzzy logic is the Empty Gas Tank Ear-Pull. The SLAPPER will pull the driver’s ear whenever there is a critical fuel issue.
Next: More capabilities… to be imagined !!!!
546, the horse sounds much less confusing. (ps-seriously, I do think you have poetic talent)
#546 LOL – the sequel
Glenn ? 546 – Rainier Ale ?
(549) gotta be crack.
546. deleted at Gayle’s request
551, Gayle, another poet, and you I understand!
LOL (or maybe meth)
Pingback: Holiday Travel Tips from Oregon State Police « Joe Duck
Mickey M I deleted your comment.
(554) Always a good reminder, Joe.
[number edited because posts changed]
Oops!
You’ll probably want to delete mine then,
which I totally understand. I knew I probably
shouldn’t have gone there.
Sorry Lisa – I messed you up by saying I was leaving it in and then deleting it. Your poem was a clever reply but since it won’t make sense out of context I deleted it.
Like I said I totally understand! I don’t think it really
belongs here. And I think it was a good call that you deleted the first one too.
Marie (535) and kip (539), you’ve been given complimentary memberships in the James & Kati Kim Hero Club for Men & Negligence Denial Society. It comes with an advance copy of Kati’s new book and a share of the proceeds from her Internet tip jar.
Now, to the peanut gallery, my very favorite idea in this otherwise pretty barren 1,550+ post “discussion” came from the geek whose idea was to put WiMax radios in the forest. By the way, you’re all still batting .000 and showing the world that you’d rather protect Kati’s book and movie deals than actually put out concrete recommendations that would save lives by telling the truth about their stupidity and negligence.
Congrats, “compassionate” ones!
(294 RobZ) This is part 2 of my route analysis. At the end of part 1, the Kims were at the intersection of Galice Rd. and BLM 34-8-36 on the bank of the Rogue River around 10:30 p.m., probably regardless of which I-5 exit they took.
(450 Joe Duck) You are probably right that they took the Merlin (#61) exit off of I-5. The only time we have gone to this part of the Rogue, my wife and I took the Merlin exit. I remember the Merlin exit being the clearly marked exit to get ot the Rogue.
But if the Kims stopped for gas, for a bathroom break, or to check a map, then they could have gotten to BLM 34-8-36 closer to 11 p.m.
QUESTION: I want to check the weather records, but does anyone know if it was snowing on Sexton Mtn. Pass that evening? (A year before when I had to drive down to Grants Pass from Eugene, all the truck traffic and some of the car traffic just stopped in the middle of I-5 on Sexton Mtn. Pass during a fast and heavy snow.)
So starting from this point to the critical fork between NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36, here is the route:
— Begin Part 2: Galice to critical fork —
Starting at juncture of Galice Rd. and BLM 34-8-36
1. (elev. 740′) Turn left onto BLM 34-8-36 … (follow Galice Creek upriver) – go 0.7 mi, 1% grade
2. (elev. 790′) Pass Pea Vine Rd. (BLM 35-8-2) on right – go 1.3 mi, 2% grade
3. (elev. 930′) Pass Chrome Ridge Rd. on left; continue right on BLM 34-8-36 … (follow North Fork Galice Creek upriver) – go 2.2 mi, 5% grade
4. (elev. 1470′) Pass 4WD road on right – go 1.0 mi, 5% grade
5. (elev. 1740′) Pass BLM 35-8-5 on right; continue left on BLM 34-8-36 – go 1.7 mi, 10% grade
6. (elev. 2650′) Pass unimproved road on left; U-turn right – go 0.9 mi, 8% grade
7. (elev. 3020′) Pass unimproved road on left; continue straight on BLM 34-8-36 – go 1.1 mi, 9% grade
8. (elev. 3520′) Pass 35-9-12 Rd. (and unimproved road) on right – go 0.6 mi, 1% grade
9. (elev. 3560′) Arrive at SOLDIER CAMP intersection; pass BLM 35-9-1, 35-9-14-1 and South Fork Galice Rd. on left; pass road on right; continue straight on BLM 34-8-36 – go 1.7 mi, flat
10. (elev. 3560′) Pass Hobson Horn Rd./Sourgrass Rd. on left – go 1.0 mi, slight decline
11. (elev. 3530) Arrive at CAMP HOWARD; NF 23 on left; Bear Camp Rd. (a.k.a. BLM 34-8-36) and BLM 34-9-34 on right
Ending at critical fork between NF 23 and BLM 34-8-36
Total distance: 12.2 miles
Total time: 36 minutes @ 20 mph
— End Part 2: Galice to critical fork —
Now at this point, things get a bit more speculative. It is possible that the Kims reached the critical fork shortly after 11 p.m., assuming they traveled an average of 20 mph up BLM 34-8-36. Folks with local knowledge will have a better sense of whether this estimated speed is too fast or too slow.
In any case, visibility and weather conditions could change this estimate a lot. It would be useful to know what the snow level was that night shortly before midnight, as their speed would have dropped significantly once they hit snow.
Next, I’ll look more at the lay of the land at this critical fork. Then I look at the “right” route on NF 23 from this point. Finally, I will look at the maze of BLM roads they ended up on.
(466 RodneyG) Yes, I have Google Earth and it was helpful in figuring out turns, elevations and distances. It also give a pretty good sense of just how rugged this country is when you tilt the view and “fly” through th terrain!
[repost #79 – Comment by Kip | December 7, 2006]
I can’t find the words that adequately express the admiration and love I feel for James – an incredible human being who died truly heroically.
Thinking about James’ plight in the W.C. drainage reminds me of an experience I’ll not forget.
West coast of Vancouver Island – one rainy winter day a friend and I had been trying to locate an access road to a beach we wanted to get down to. We were on a logging road that traversed a mountain side bordering the shore line.. We couldn’t find the turn off to the access road. We had been told that road ran parallel to a creek that ended at the ocean beach. We did find a creek and an old log skid path that ran beside it we thought may have been “the road”. So we parked our vehicle & headed on foot (sneakers!) down the path. The going initially was easy, a moderate downhill grade with light underbrush cover. But further down it got increasingly tougher as the trail petered out. Soon we were ducking under & clambering over fallen trees and limbs cluttering the creek bed. The undergrowth got more dense and the creek got deeper and the boulders seemed more slimy and slippery the further downstream we walked-waded. Eventually the way became almost impassable. At that point I remember well the pull of the challenge, urging me on even further…But thanks largely to my intransigent common sense partner we did turn around. Daylight was soon to be gone and we were wet & tired. The climb back up was a hell of a struggle. We were fortunate, we got out OK.
Had we not turned back, could we have survived the night in that tangled watery abyss? It’s painful just thinking how close we came to finding that out.
I’ve been thinking of James’ desperate, fatal scramble down the drainage depression.
Bob, (or anybody)… do you think it conceivable that on the Saturday James could have traveled all the way down to the point he was eventually found? The reason I ask is that I find it difficult to believe he could have survived even one night soaking wet in freezing temperatures with no shelter & no heat in that hellhole chasm.
They found an impression, I believe near a log, where they believe James slept, so I think they are certain he survived Saturday night. I believe that’s where they also found the long sleeve red tshirt…
Heather, if indeed the Google Map routing changed in mid-2006, it could be that they changed mapping providers for that area.
As you know, the current Google map uses NAVTEQ.
However, the Google Maps API appears to use TeleAtlas data, as seen at this example:
http://www.earthtools.org/index.php?x=-123.78107070922851&y=42.676756492874695&z=13&t=4&m=Map
I suppose it’s possible that the main Google Maps site used to use the TeleAtlas data, and then switched to NAVTEQ when you noticed the change in routing. Bear Camp Rd looks about the same to me in the TeleAtlas data, but who knows what kind of internal codes are on these roads for use with routing algorithms?
(Early on the East Coast, the loneliest time to post.)
551… deleted at Gayle’s request
(561) wow…thats a lot of work!
THIS JUST GETS MORE PATHETIC WITH EACH PASSING DAY:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166676907267580.xml&coll=7
Amazing, simply amazing.
deleted
(568)
Well at least we have confirmed the hotel in Portland…Hotel Lucia they refused to release the information.
The cellphone information not heeded is ridiculus. This should be investigated to see if there is criminal negligence involved. Now this is the third person that provided direct information EXACTLY where they could find the Kim’s and the idiots in charge ignored it.
570 …and Sara R does not return phone calls. So the Josephine sheriff says the Oregonian article is untrue, but I have yet to see specifics on that.
569 MARIE: Did you know that Packy is the nickname of the first elephant ever born in captivity at the Portland Zoo ? Interestingly, Packy has grown into an exceedingly mean tempered packaderm and has to be segregated from the other elephants because he’s always picking fights and bullying the other elephants. He’s just plain ornery and mean….not there are any relevant parallels here, I just thought I would mention it.
LOL many times over…
(568)
“The Josephine County Sheriff’s Office and state police did not order a search of the area with a heat-seeking helicopter that Saturday night or Sunday, even though the Oregon National Guard had one fueled and awaiting orders. Sara Rubrecht, emergency services manager for Josephine County, did not return calls Wednesday seeking comment.”
There is that name AGAIN!
572/571 – has a momentary lapse, the parallels were just too amusing to ignore (that is a totally true story).
571/569: LOL
568: Mental note: When in Portland never stay at Hotel Lucia.
I lived in the Pacific NW for 20 years and my husband and I traveled all over Oregon (among all the other states and Canada) including the Rogue River area. We even took a jet boat ride down the Rogue once in the area where they filmed Rooster Cogburn, and I remember how high the rugged, bouldered walls of the river were, how raw the country was, and was amazed anyone filmed anything there.
It makes me sputter to think this info was available to SAR while James Kim as still alive and not acted upon sooner. I would like to see the explantion why Peter Sleeth’s reporting is not accurate. Thank goodness for him. At least one investigative reporter is on top of this.
On Sat morning after James went off on foot, Kati claimed to have heard a helicopter. Has anyone heard whose helicopter that was?
561 – RobZ, very nice work!
568 – Paul, thank you for posting that link. Unbelievable. Even in the big Sunday Oregonian article last week, they did mention that there were only a few roads from which that signal could have come, so it was pretty narrowed down (sorry, don’t have the quote in front of me right now – could find it if someone wants it). All of which would have been great information if there was enough capable and competent coordination to have actually looked before a 30-year old woman had to become a widow with little girls who will grow up, graduate and get married without their father. Yes, I’m getting emotional, and I’d worry if I didn’t find that kind of thing sad. Sure, James and Kati made some mistakes (so shut up before you even speak up if you are thinking of replying about how they screwed up – tired of hearing it, and that’s not even the point anymore), I don’t give a crap who does or doesn’t feel that he’s a hero, and maybe it still would have ended this way even if there was a competent coordination, but maybe not – there was sure as hell a better chance if paid professionals had done their damn jobs – maybe, just maybe, James Kim could have made it out of there alive. With the way this thing was handled, he didn’t have much of a chance.
The hotel thing – my post 796 on the old page pretty much sums up my thoughts on this and how policies need to be changed. In a nutshell, things like ID theft are rampant, corporate offices dictate policy outside of the actual right now kind of circumstances, and I can understand why there was a delay – BUT – this needs to change (post 796 on hold page has an idea of mine).
Anyway, now I’m irate again.
PS on 576: I am one of those saps who does think James was a hero, and I, too, would LOVE more than anything to hear some explanation from Sarah Rubrecht, Brian Anderson, etc., beyond that the allegations are not true and that they have no comment. I can only believe, then, that the Oregonian’s articles have been accurate.
(577) I have seen Rubrecht’s named spelled two ways…
Sara and Sarah…can anyone confirm the correct spelling of her first name?
and why does she still have a job?
Paul (571),
Wow, that is amazing!
(deleted….)
578 – I’ve seen it both ways, too, but take a look at this where she is Sara and how to contact her for no comment:
Click to access locals_list.pdf
Agreed – why does she have a job?? I’m getting irate all over again.
This morning, KIRO-7 in Seattle cited a report that a Portland motel refused to give Portland police the Kim’s credit card information OR to provide their cell phone numbers.
Although the first claim is old news on this board, I have not heard the last claim regarding cell phone numbers. To anyone’s knowledge, did the Portland police ask for cell phone numbers from the Portland motel and was this request specifically refused?
I accept Mr. Hollenbeck’s statement that in his long experience, the gate at the now-infamous Bear Camp-BLM road intersection is never closed or locked. However, this tends to indicate that the FS/BLM official who said that he ordered that the gate be locked might be telling a falshood. Has anyone heard from the guys who were “ordered” to lock the gate? Someone with initiative could use FOIA to resolve this issue by examining the FS/BLM records for the period when the gate was supposedly locked.
CNN’s display of a cut lock can easily be explained away. Undoubtedly locks on that gate have been installed and cut soon afterward over the years and CNN found the remnants of an old lock over in a ditch and pretended like it was the actual lock that directly caused the Kim to become stranded in the wilderness. BTW, CNN lies a lot.
I am intrigued by Maggie’s hypothesis (at #497) and by her map showing an alternate (more Westerly) route that the Kim Family might have taken. Until now, we have assumed (I think) that Kim Family proceeded down the BLM road probably thinking that they were on Bear Camp Road and then James Kim hiked back down that same road in the same direction that they had come. That makes sense if we assume that James Kim was trying to return to Galice and tends to dovetail with the theory that James thought that he was entering Galice Creek.
But suppose that Maggie is right? Let’s continue to suppose that the Kims thought that they were on Bear Camp Road (or some other road leading to the Coast). If after their long drive the Kims came downhill out of the snow as reported, then maybe they thought that they had passed the high ground at Bear Camp and that they were on the West side of the Coast Range. In that case, maybe James Kim went further down that same road thinking that he would reach Agness instead of Galice. Any thoughts?
Finally, in analyzing the law enforcement response, we should recall that nobody KNEW that the Kim Family was lost in the snow until they were actually found. Before the evidence started to mount in that direction, it remained possible that the Kims had been kidnapped, or that they had driven into the Cascades instead of the Coast Range, or that they had driven off a cliff into the ocean, or that they had given up and decided to drive back to California and ended up in some sort of trouble there. It remained possible (however unlikely) that James Kim freaked out, killed his family, and headed to Mexico. I imagine that a lot of law enforcement attention was distracted by scenarios other than getting lost in the snow on Bear Camp Road and any reasonable cop would consider these possibilities and others, at least briefly. This might tend to explain why the LE leadership wasn’t completely focused on S&R.
Finally, I am confused by the concept that the BLM roads South of the Rogue River are so convoluted that they are beyond the comprehension of mortal man. After all, these roads are graded and some of them are even paved, meaning that there is a road grading contractor and sometimes a paving contractor who know those roads very well. These roads were likely graded and/or paved under a contract, meaning that the companies and BLM officials involved had direct knowledge and accurate maps of the whole area. In addition, these are primarily logging roads and the logging companies, loggers, and log truck drivers who work in the area use these roads and where they go. These possible sources of local knowledge might be useful in the future.
I have been lurking here since about post #200 (old numbering system). Thanks to everyone for the enlightening comments and to Joe Duck for providing this space.
581 – Brenda, thank you for taking a look at my alternate scenario – just for the record, I do not necessarily think that the Kim’s took that route, since there is no evidence that they did. It’s just another way to get there, and I found it interesting as another unlikely possibility. I am still inclined to think they maybe never got onto FS 23 and instead took that same right onto the BLM road believing it was Bear Camp Road – pure speculation.
You do bring up a good point that there were many other reasons they could have been missing other than being lost where they were, and I would cut LE/SAR a little slack at the very, very early start – but once they started ignoring pertinent information likely placing the Kim’s as lost in that area, I think they really botched this. Just my opinion.
Wow! I’m really impressed by the variety and quality of depth and levity this morning… There’s almost too many posts I really want to respond to at once! Unfortunately, I don’t have enough time!
I don’t think that the hotel not providing the cell numbers is that important. You would think they could have obtained that information from whomever reported them missing or from employees at the Kim owned stores or from family members.
Joe – if you need to remove a post because of inappropriate content, do you have the ability to just overwrite the text with the word DELETED so that the numbering system isn’t affected? Just wondering.
584 – rem, I think it was mainly the credit card informationt that the hotel wouldn’t release. That’s something most friends/family would not have but could have more quickly helped to determin where the Kim’s went after leaving the hotel to narrow down the search area. The private citizen Roseburg Denney’s tip came quite a bit later, so if that information had been available sooner, it may have provided another clue a little sooner.
As for the cell phone numbers from the hotel, I doubt they needed to ask. Wouldnt the family readily give that to the police?
Brenda I like your idea of finding a way to bring in logger or road contractor information. A lot of people who get lost in the west are lost on logging roads that the SAR folks are NOT very familiar with.
Clearly in the Kim’s case there were locals who knew the area well/had special information (esp. the Owner of Black Bar Lodge and the Edge Wireless) that were not brought into the process quickly.
If this is typical it’s a major defect in SAR strategy because you can easily collect and analyze *information* without having people running all over the search area getting in the way.
So it’s time to create an easy-to-navigate online system that will collect pieces of information that might be of help, combine those with existing “danger” data, and then use people online to analyze relationships, plot coordinates on maps, and provide insight. This input is free and appears to be in huge abundance out in cyberland and it can bypass the beauracracy and “crowding” that hampers a lot of SAR efforts.
Also, worthless comments are easy to bypass in this case where, as many point out above, worthless helpers use up resources and get in the way.
(587) Your just like Steve McQueen – man! 🙂
For those of us older folk out here might remember that from Cheech and Chong.
Good points all the way through your post.
Today is another amazing day of information coming forth…I am still puzzled how Sara R. still has a job?
Rem – Yes, to keep the numbers intact I’ll just write deleted.
As I’ve said I don’t like to delete stuff unless the author asks me to because this is a very bright and imaginative group, but many of the comments don’t reflect that at all.
Everybody – please be more civil and stop the petty name calling, keeping in mind that family and friends were (are?) reading the blog.
(589) BTW Joe…nice to see your efforts recognized on the family site.
Thanks Glenn!
(589 – 591) I didn’t see it – where is it? Joe, I do think that this is an amazing blog commentary, and thank you again for giving us all this place to direct our thoughts and feelings into something (mostly) constructive.
592 – Nevermind – duh – saw it. That’s very nice.
In a way, I think it’s a shame that the flaws within the system and SAR leadership efforts are being brought forth within this prime time of the holiday season. I think even more people nationally would be interested in hearing about the failings of the search, but many are very busy. I would really like to get it more press – like maybe on one of the network news broadcasts, in order to shed more light and put more pressure on all authorities involved – those involved in failings and those involved in improving them.
Joe do you have any guidelines you’d like to suggest for
comment content?
579 / Marie: I can’t speak to that, and I really should apologize for my 571 post. Elephants can’t speak for themselves and it’s unfair and mean spirited for me to cast aspersions on an animal that can’t speak for itself….it’s comparable in despicability to endlessly belittling and attacking someone who is dead; who is here neither to defend his reputation and actions nor – more importantly – to give his side of the story.
With that I will leave this issue alone and endeavor, as Joe so wisely counsels, to “be more civil and stop the petty name calling”. Thank you for reminding us Joe.
Fox News.com is participating:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,237988,00.html&e=14823&sa=X&oi=news&ct=result&cd=1&usg=__blmLt-HCRq_5MGhkWePv7iit3zk=
There’s no brand new – news, but there’s a new composite
article that discusses the new failure information – written
by Fox news with contributions from the associated press.
595/ Lisa: I think Joe’s comment, quoted in my post 596, is reasonable and clear.
597 – Lisa, I had trouble with the link and didn’t see the story on their site. Do you remember where on there it was?
599 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,237988,00.html
Re: 599
Maggie – I found it when I googled ‘James Kim search,’
the article had posted 4 hours ago and references both
the SF Chronicle and Oregonian articles – but in a fresh
format.
And here is some new information it had:
“James Kim’s father, Spencer Kim, recently sent an e-mail launching a “private-public sector initiative … in honor of James L. Kim, my beloved son.”
Kim asked friends and associates to help review laws to allow release of credit card and phone records to next of kin in case of emergency.
He also called for the U.S. Forest Service to enforce restrictions on access to logging roads with clear signs, roadblocks and closed gates during the winter. And he urged making it a federal crime to tamper with those signs and gates.”
I will try to post the link again…
Thanks Gayle and Lisa. I did see in the Oregonian where Mr. Kim mentioned credit card/phone records and the logging road issues. Hopefully more lives may be saved in the future with some fairly simple changes.
Lisa re: Comment content guidelines. I like to stay away from that because it can inhibit people who aren’t sure if it’s relevant and then get too “shy” about posting the comment.
I’d just like people to stop the baiting and personal insults which detract from the story that gripped everybody here.
However I *hate* to be a censor because it really goes against the grain of how comments should work, especially since there are now a lot of writers and far more readers participating.
Joe / Bob H – if the Josephine County sherrif ever gives more specifics as to why he alleges the Oregonian is lying please link the source and/or recap if you can. It may be via a venue that is not web accesible.
Re: 600
Thanks Gayle! Our Master-Linker!
Re: 598
I think that’s true Paul, as for the name-calling. However,
I’m a little confused and would be interested in hearing
if Joe has anything else to say on the matter.
For example, there are compliments I would like to express
about the Kim children, but I don’t know if that would fall
within what Joe has in mind.
I guess what I would like to know is – how “professional”
vs. how “relaxed” or “informal” would he prefer this to be?
Since it is within his jurisdiction!
I’m late once again! Thanks Joe! That helps a lot!
Re: 605
That was meant to be funny at the end – just want
to have respect because it is your site.
From FOX News:
Further impairing the rescue mission, managers at the Hotel Lucia, where James and Kati Kim stayed Nov. 24 with their two young daughters, declined requests faxed on Nov. 30 on Portland Police Bureau letterhead for information that could have given insight into the family’s whereabouts, police said.
Portland Detective Michael Weinstein said he tried to explain the urgency of the request and that he did not have enough time to secure a subpoena. “The Kim family were believed to be in immediate danger,” he said.
“To their credit, I could tell the manager truly wanted to help me, but he was ordered not to provide heinformation,” Weinstein told the San Francisco Chronicle, which reported the story earlier this month. Click here to read that story. The downtown Portland hotel’s general manager did not return a call Wednesday from The Oregonian newspaper seeking comment
The downtown Portland hotel’s general manager did not return a call Wednesday from The Oregonian newspaper seeking comment.
Hi Paul (596),
I respect what you said here.
I especially like the very well-expressed analogy about bashing defenseless animals and the defenseless deceased/grief-stricken ones whose plight we discuss here.
My deep and sincere apologies to Portland Zoo Packy. I’d never want to playfully pick on an innocent pachyderm, even if he is a bit persnickety! Peace to Packy!!!!
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g52024-d250254-Reviews-Hotel_Lucia-Portland_Oregon.html
I think this is the Hotel Lucia website— can anyone confirm?
While I understand the privacy rights of their guests caused them to not release CC information to just anyone—
I just don’t know why they would thwart an investigative request from a police detective without a court subpoena. Kind of surprising. I wonder what the basis was?
Obviously the hotel made a bad decision and I hope they try to make up for it or at least support a change in whatever convoluted law prevented the release?
(610) Once the hotel is confirmed…why don’t we all make a phone call to the hotel and complain about it.
For those who are interested but haven’t read it – here is an article with a lot of personal information and sentiment from those who knew James:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1165467322304590.xml&coll=7&thispage=4
Now some personal information from me (so those not interested can move on):
I had felt an uncanny affinity with James and discovered just now that we both attended two of the small Quaker colleges in the U.S. around the same time. I had felt like
he was a friend – (“Friend” is also actually another name for Quakers) and now it makes more sense.
I went to Friends’ schools starting in Kindergarten. I later went to public school, but returned to a Quaker school for college because their idea of education is so enriching. They are really about bringing out the best in humanity – encouraging social and cultural equalitarianism and understanding around the world. And you don’t have
to be Quaker at all to attend their schools. Their ideals
however, often appeal to people who like those ideals.
And they are optimists, which unforutunately in this case may not have worked in James’ favor. I think that is partly why I understood.
Here is a quote from a friend of his in the above mentioned article which I love:
“The last time she saw James was at a birthday party in August. He was massaging Sabine’s feet as Penelope was drawing with chalk.
‘I remember James sitting outside with Sabine in his lap,’ she said, ‘and she was just melting in his arms.'”
I think this is partly why this story is so gripping.
(612) Thanks for sharing; friend… 🙂
Re: 613
Thanks, glenn!
Here is a paragraph from one random, credit card holder agreement (Visa and MC):
Credit Information/Financial Statements. You authorize us to release information to others (e.g., credit bureaus, merchants, law enforcement agencies, and other financial institutions) regarding the status and history of your Account.
But this doesn’t answer the question if a merchant like the Hotel could release. ……or even what the heck “status and history” mean– seems like it should include the CC number. I guess this interaction was done only by fax. Maybe they thought they were being scammed themselves out of the Kim’s CC info. But they could have called a general number at the Portland PD to confirm. Sometimes the world gets too complicated.
Just seems there should be some room for common sense here. well I am just guessing and doing this with 20/20 hindsight.
If the Kims cared so much for their children, why did they ignore a series of warnings — one on a map and three on road signs — along with bad weather? Why did they go up there with inadequate gas and without even the sort of clothing you’d have for rainy weather in Oregon? Some “caring.”
As for the SAR efforts, something occurred to me. What proportion of the rescue attempt consisted of government resources, compared with private resources? If SAR is to be critically examined, shouldn’t the private efforts be included? Or would that hurt too many precious feelings?
Yes – I bet the problem mainly has to do with the fax
issue – there are so many imposters and tricksters out
there now, and we have a lot of problems with ID theft
in Portland. I think it would have been best if the police
could have sent one or more personnel in person. Downtown
Portland is not that big. Knowing the location of the police station I looked at the map, and it is within 5
minutes of the hotel.
LOL^4
considerable attention has been focused on the the refusal of a Portland hotel to divulge the Kims cell phone number(s)
BUT the hotel was hardly the only possible source for this info
how ’bout just asking their friends, family, co-workers, store managers, ….? cnet?
(maybe i’m missing something)
(619) at the time of the investigation that was very early on and I agree the facts around who presented what information is limited as far as cnet,friends, and family.
Sadly it probably wouldn’t have mattered because Sara R. and Anderson would have dismissed it anyway. You would have a better chance of being abducted by alien then be found by those two!
Wait…maybe if you got lost on the field at an Oregon football game – Anderson might be able to help.
Re: 616
There are often a lot of danger and warning signs on roads
that are not literal depictions of the roads at that time.
Back east, there are a lot of signs that say ‘Warning or
Caution Rock Slides’ – but I have never seen an actual rock
slide on any one of them.
There are also a lot of deer crossing signs where there
are not always deer crossing at that moment.
Most of us do not like to live in fear – and our lives
today are convenient enough that we usually don’t encounter
as many survival dangers and perils as our forefathers did.
Anotherwords, the Kims may have seen the signs but didn’t
really think they applied until the weather worsened and
they started sliding. Then they decided to get out of there
and they tried and it was too late.
That is what the accounts we have indicate.
I haven’t looked myself, and I am not sure if we can be
positive which map they had – but someone said the warnings
on the maps tend to be very small when there are any at all.
They thought they were going on an easy-going Thanksgiving
holiday road trip. They did not plan on going hiking through
snowy mountains.
In looking at this case all SAR efforts can be examined. What we have found, however, is that often private efforts
were inhibited by public rules, regulations, attitudes, inefficiency, and ineptitude.
619 – Kip, I don’t know that anyone asked the hotel for cell phone numbers – it was the credit card number that the hotel would not give out because of corporate policy.
I still can understand the hotel’s point of view. Without a crystal ball, they do not know if there is ID theft/fraud or that there is a legitimate request. I agree with Lisa where she said that an officer going in may have been a better idea in this case. In future cases, I do think there needs to be a somewhat universal policy in place in general, not just at hotels, but perhaps through the credit card companies themselves so that when someone is missing, and someone else knows where the missing person’s credit card was used, some quick action may be taken.
Re: 619
Kip, at this point it’s more about the cc #’s
because that is information friends and family are
less likely to have that would have been critical
in determining where else the Kims had been –
restaurants, stores, etc. on their trip.
Thats a good point, you would think the detective would be able to at least get cell phone numbers from the family. But I think the detective maybe wasn’t even working that angle, and was just interested in the credit card numbers because he knew what to do with that information. Maybe the family would not have credit card info either.
Bamadad and Lisa I agree with you…it was a frustrating thought to me too. I could see an employee disregarding a fax. But, if the police just went in person, or sent the sheriff…it would be hard for the employee to question that.
I really dont think the detective tried hard enough here…do you need a subpoena really? I think showing up in person would have done it. But that is just speculation.
622 – I’ll correct myself. I just re-read that both cell numbers and credit card numbers were requested, though it would make sense that any family member/friend/house-sitter reporting them missing would have the cell number(s), but not the credit card number. That’s the crux of the issue and one that needs some thought for future cases.
Re: 622
Maggie, I agree! You have had great insights and ideas
all along!
p.s. the Redwoods are absolutely incredible!
Re; 618
glenn – you are being a pillar of strength!
I’ll be back later!
mapper you too!
the entire public leadership/coordinating SAR effort smacks to me of “inefficiency, and ineptitude”.
it’s damn frustrating hearing all the excuses why this or that wasn’t done.
gawd! a mum and a dad and an infant and a young child just one day disappear, unexpectedly, no trace
2 possibilities: foul play or accident.
either case it’s obviously critically urgent that the responsible SAR person, entity, agency… whatever it is, GET all pertinent info (cc#’s, cell #’s, etc) ASAP. no stopping, no excuses, no buck passing, … until it’s GOT.
(628) unless Oregon is playing ball…please don’t forget that…
otherwise u r spot on Kip!
But of course Kip (628) is just full of excuses for negligent, irresponsible parents who take their kids into the middle of nowhere despite abundant warnings and with no supplies of any kind.
LOL – it’s Old Milwaukie time !!!
631 – I’ve stayed out of it, and it’s none of my business, but I’m giddy in advance of a 4 day weekend and in the mood to voice more opinions, so I just want to say that I really, really like the change to this whole beer theme way, way, way more than any other response or feeding hungry trolls. I’ll return to my silence on this. Pop a top 🙂
582 – Maggie, I agree that we can only speculate about the Kim Family’s route and even if we knew James Kim’s route and intended destination, we would not change the outcome. He faced a long and dangerous walk whether he was going forward to Agness or retreating to Galice.
I believe that we honor the memory of James Kim by trying to understand what he and his Family went through. I believe that James Kim would be honored to know that we all care enough to try to understand what happened. I also believe that James would critique his own performance in terms that we would never dare to use. Even those who criticize James and detail his apparent errors and missteps serve to give his life additional meaning beyond his huge influence on others during his brief existence.
With that respect and honor, we can properly speculate about the route that the Kim Family might have taken before they became stranded. Did the Kim Family drive past the intersection to Black Bar Lodge or did they take a more Westerly route (your proposed route)? It would be interesting to see a picture of the intersection where your proposed route diverges from the route that would take them opast the Black Bar Lodge road. Maybe someone will venture out next Spring and take some pictures.
Perhaps the Kims, believing that they were on Bear Camp Road, came to the intersection where your proposed route diverges and took the left-hand road because it appeared to lead in the direction of the Coast, while the right-hand fork would appear to lead in the wrong direction. Of course, this assumes that James Kim had some level of positional awareness when he encountered this intersection. I suspect that if I thought that I was on Bear Camp Road and came toan intersection, I would tend to take the fork that led in the direction that I wanted to go (in this case, left = West, toward the Coast).
I hope we agree that the SAR people in the field did a magnificent job, but that their search activities were directed by their supervisors. I tend to agree with you and others that their heroic efforts suffered from poor coordination at the upperlevels. In my view, “botched” is probably about right.
BTW, anyone who wonders how Sara R. got her job hasn’t spent much time around public hiring. She was already working for the County so she was a known quantity who already knew how to play the game (go along and don’t make waves). When the SAR job was funded, the politicos decided that Sara R. would get it and either kept the job announcement quiet or stonewalled any other applicants. Whether or not she was actually qualified for the job never entered the picture – it was just a political perk to be doled out to the right supporter. I wonder what the new Sheriff will do when he takes office.
633 – Brenda, so well put about wanting to try to re-trace the path that the Kim’s took, wanting to put ourselves in their shoes, so to speak, as a way of thinking about them and even in some ways to honor James. Beautiful, really.
632 – the surest way to incite further is to feed…ignoring works much better and you feel better too.
Spencer – your #108, December 18 “…Going back to the football game/phone call thing.. I wonder what the expectation of an “undersheriff” is to be available for calls on their day off. I’m somewhat sympathetic to allowing law enforcement officers days off where they are 100% free from the stress of work – it’s a stressful job – I believe the demands of the job require uninterrupted time off…”
Huh?? couldn’t believe I was reading this at the time… it’s still haunting me! maybe I belong on some other another planet..
636 – Kip, I still think everyone deserves days off. Here’s how I responded (post 109) and how I still think:
“108-Spencer, I wondered that, too, about the day off. It’s kind of like Detective Weinstein of Portland Police being out sick the day – I do think that all people need to have their days to be sick or watch a game, but someone else needs to be available to respond in their absence – considering these are life and death issues. What about Brian Anderson’s boss, presumably the sheriff? Or even someone else superior to Rubrecht? Nobody dies if I’m not at my desk, but we still have people cover in others’ absences.”
636 / 637 – Among the long list of things that went wrong, this strikes me as one of the less critical. She could have called someone else and/or escalated to someone else, so there is blame to go around
More critical to me is that, when they tried to clear the BLM road they reported back – very clearly – that they were unable to and that they witnessed snowed over tire tracks. THAT critical piece of news, and the fact that it was not acted upon for days, likely cost someone their life.
I think everyone deserves a day off…I would think the under-sheriff would know when a call was important and when it wasn’t.
If I call my boss at home, she knows its serious, or I just need to talk to her NOW.
I don’t think the undersherrif has to always be on call, I would think it would be similiar in that, the people under him would only call him when absolutley neccessary. It sounds like she did that and was either too shy to really be admanant about needing his help, or he brushed it off.
I think its similiar for firemen, they have a certain amount of time off but are subject to being called in under certain circumstances, for instance…they are searching for someone. Maybe this is different for each department.
Anderson didn’t take the call because he really didn’t care…he was still licking his wounds from losing the election – human nature – still no excuse…family missing on your watch you never step it down…you step it up and get the job done.
Happy Solstice Everyone! you too NW’r
4:22 p.m. PST 12/21/06
(641) good news about that is that the days starting getting longer again from this point forward…
Glenn, one of the main things that stood out to me when I read one of the first comprehensive articles about this…was that he was watching a football game when that call came. Never been a big sports fan so I wouldn’t understand anyway… but that little fact did bother me!
I dont know about human nature, I think my human nature would be put into “lets do something” kind of overdrive, even if I had lost some election (maybe help prove those voters wrong anyway!) but maybe I am wrong…never lost any elections.
I’m going to have to blame this on some crazy allegiance to watching football if you dont mind!
The undersheriff was a manager, and the supervisor of the SAR coordinator. It was his job to take that call, period.
I keep wondering why, if the Kims had had brunch with Kati’s old friend in Portland, they cruised into Roseburg at 8 p.m., given that Roseburg is 3 hours from Portland. Question: Were the Kims pot smokers? Maybe relaxing at the friend’s house with a joint before the trip, and time got away from them?
LOL^5
Re: 643, 640
I think there are some damn good sheriffs and under-sheriffs
out there who have a lot of integrity, and even with football allegiances would have their first allegiance to duty – especially in crisis and emergency situations with
search and rescue procedures in process.
I think it was very unfortunate that the Kims got lost
in this county under it’s current leadership.
I agree that after losing the election, this under-sheriff
had some seriously bad attitude problems.
It seems to me that human nature can range from selfish
to generous, and from everything I’ve seen and read about
Brian Anderson, he appears the selfish, self-serving type.
Re: 633
I also think that Brenda made an excellent point in her last
paragraph about how Sara R got hired and she has not yet
been fired (glenn!) – it’s so much about being an non-threatening insider to the current leadership power.
I also agree with Brenda that this is one of the best ways
we can honor James Kim. That is why I’m here – because
when he was alive I wanted him to be found in time, and
I still wish he had been.
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The best way to honor James Kim is to tell the truth about his misjudgments, in hopes that other people won’t die making the same foolish mistakes as he and his wife did.
Now as for that undersheriff, I have reconsidered my past criticism of him. I’m not convinced he did anything wrong. According to the [i]Oregonian[/i], he blew off the phone call late on the night of Saturday, Dec. 2, but was in the sheriff’s office at 8 a.m. Sunday, Dec. 3, which also happened to be his day off.
Unless someone can point to something that he could have done overnight, I’m not inclined to think that Mr. Anderson committed any error by not taking the phone call.
LOL A LOT 2NITE
wow glenn. impressive.
Maggie-
You mentioned Brian Anderson’s boss the sheriff… I believe he had resigned and Brian Anderson was acting sheriff… I believe.
644 / 648: LOL – & Old English 800 was on special tonight.
(650) impressive hardly…the world went and got civilized they don’t allow duels anymore… 🙂
651 – Ah, I think you might be right, Tara. If that’s the case, then there still should have been someone else to “cover” if that was his day off. If the policy is that Anderson was to be on call, then it does fall on him. I understand days off, but whether people cover in another’s absence or someone is on call, someone with some authority needs to be available.
I noticed that the new Oregonian article this morning really didn’t provide much new about the cell phone information than what the older article did. In fact, I think it said even less. From the older article,
http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/11663313078330.xml?oregonian?lctop&coll=7
“Castleman said Fuqua called at 5 p.m. [Saturday, Dec 2nd] to say he’d made a crucial discovery: the 1:45 a.m. text messages. The signal, he said, was delivered by an antenna on a cell tower near Glendale. The antenna pointed west toward Bear Camp Road.”
“Knowing that, Fuqua was able to deduce even more about the Kims’ whereabouts. Cell signals are hampered by mountains, which meant the signal was likely to have come from a point with a clean line of sight to the tower. That eliminated large sections of the wedge-shaped territory in range of the antenna.”
“By 6 p.m. that Saturday, Dec. 2, Fuqua was on the phone to the Oregon State Police with a message: He had a break in the case. Soon after, state police Lt. Powers, called Rubrecht to report Fuqua’s discovery.”
Hmmm, that was at 6:00PM on the very night that James Kim spent his first night outside of his car. The same night undersheriff Brian Anderson didn’t answer Sara Rubrecht’s call.
The same night as this:
“The Oregon National Guard had a helicopter equipped with sensitive heat detectors that work best in the hours before dawn. It had spent Saturday searching roads in Curry County, where official there said they were ‘going to pass the search to Josephine County.'”
“The flight log says ‘there were no requests.'”
This is all also the day after the local John James advised Sara Rubrecht twice that he’d seen tire tracks on the road where the Kim’s were found (but nothing was checked that day).
And all of this, that Saturday night, was just the first night of TWO NIGHTS that the National Guard helicopters were not called in.
I’d say there was plenty that could have been done that Saturday night from the time Brian Anderson didn’t answer his phone to the time at 8:00AM the next day, Sun Dec 3rd, that they actually met with Fuqua of Edge so that he could better explain his findings, as told by the same Oregonian article:
“The BLM road shooting off Bear Camp Road, where the family would be found the following day, was one of the few areas where a cell signal could reach and a road existed.”
Amazing.
ugh. I just got angry all over again. I was formulating my thoughts and reading them from you at the same time. Thats my exact thinking. THERE WAS A LIFE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. thats what could have been done. You worded that perfectly maggie.
the captain of a ship is always on call, day or nite, day off or not. the sheriff disgraced himself by refusing to take that telephone call… too busy watching a TV football game! sh!t!! meanwhile down the road James is trapped in a hellhole,, soaked, deathly cold, weak, worried to death for his family.. desparately struggling to stay alive
anderson is not worthy of the name sheriff. try pig
ЛОЛ
I dont speak this way and Joe I promise its not directed at anyone and Im sorry I hate this word but its the name on the article. Sorry I hope it doesnt offend anyone.
“F— the Public”
Says Brian Anderson
Affidavits cite Anderson as saying,
“citizens get what they pay for”
http://www.usobserver.com/archive/oct-06/andersonfem.htm
(658) WOW…let’s all jump up and down now and defend the scumbag Anderson. What a piece of work.
(658) If those affidavits are accurate…then there is your answer – HE REALLY DIDN’T CARE IF THE KIM’S DIED OR LIVED.
Tie that with his in-action and his actions it is obvious.
I’m sure that Anderson is a low-life. But USObserver.com is not the most reliable source I’ve ever seen.
#442 “429 Like I said a couple days ago I talked to one of the family members down south, and they said the Kims had been over the Bear Camp Road 1 time before. I just don’t know if it was in the summer or winter.
Comment by Bob Hollenbeck | December 19, 2006”
So where is Bob? It would be great if he’d expand on this statement. How relieable was the source? Of course, I realize that still it would only be 2nd hand information, and Kati will probably still not be talking.
Anderson makes Barney Fife look like a pro.
Re 662: It makes sense that if the Kim’s lived in Eugene for 6 months as reported, they may have spent some time traveling to the coast and may have chosen Bear Camp Rd. at least once. It would be nice to get some comfirmation on that.
I doubt that this will be a real popular opinion, but here goes. I don’t think that Sara Rubrecht, Brian Anderson or anyone else “in charge” truly just didn’t care. I really don’t. It takes a certain kind of person to really not care about the plight of a family complete with very young children. The phone call Brian Anderson didn’t answer – as I’ve said, for me it depends on what system/policy is place for emergencies and whether there was someone else for Sara to call on his day off. Hindsight is 20/20, and there was no crystal ball on the TV screen sort of overlaying the football game letting him know that this was a BIG, IMPORTANT call. Now, if he was who she was supposed to call, and he was supposed to be sort of “on call,” then I would agree 100% that it is negligence that may possibly have been a contributing factor in James Kim’s death. Still, I don’t think that it was just that he didn’t care – he may have been neglectful, not realizing the implications. Yes, still horrible, agreed. From that point, I do think that both Anderson and Rubrecht did care and probably even did try, but I think that they were incompetent, and that’s different from just flat out not caring, in my opinion. Between not caring or not being competent, I’d probably say not being competent is worse. As always, I could be wrong – I’m not inside their hearts/minds/political situations, etc., but just my $0.02 – I don’t think they didn’t care.
Finally, two baiting PACNWer posts ignored by various forum particpants. Good! Makes the forum vastly more readable and valuable when blowhards aren’t engaged.
Kudos to those of you taking action–like Susan taking the time to email various authorities.
Hi Gayle. Hwy 126 from Eugene to Florence is a fantastic road from Eugene to the coast, commonly used by college students at the U. of Oregon. When I was a student there, I used that road frequently. I still use the road when traveling from Newport to Eugene. Bear Camp Rd., by contrast, is little used by most people in Oregon, and until now, few Oregonians probably even knew about it. So I wouldn’t assume that anyone would take that road ever to go to the coast. I’m just going by what Bob said the Kim family said about their taking Bear Camp to the coast before. In my experience growing up in Medford, Bear Camp the couple of times anyone said anything about it, was described as a non-viable route to the coast, or more honestly… a horrible road to stay away from as a route anywhere except for a hunter, etc. Instead, I think out of state travelers see it on Google or some other map and think, “Oh wow that looks pretty, or shorter”, or some other non-reality based assumption. But this may not have been something like that for the Kims if they had been that way before. So the emphasis on Google maps etc. as being such a large factor in this tragedy would have to be adjusted. Kind of a big deal really. But at least flaws in Google, road signage, SAR management, backcountry driving awareness, etc. have been emphasized enough to fix, and that’s a good thing. I will say again that I wanted them to find the Kim’s alive as much as anybody, which is why I started following this story… along with the fact that I grew up in Medford, tubed the Rogue from Indian Mary down-river a few times, lost a friend in a rafting accident, motorcycled into some real out of the way places in Oregon, etc.
Crucifying Bian Anderson at this point hardly seems fair. Two sides to every story and we havent heard his side. And the Oregonian changed tones from their first article about him to their second–and thats suspicious to me. The US Observer article may be legit or may be partisan hackery. I’d bet on the latter. And if it is true, wouldnt be the first elected official bitter about the publics expectations for extraordinary levels of service despite not being willing to pay for them.
Not answering his phone while watching OSU play on a Sat night off? Whoopee. Nobody else ever duck a page? Wonder how many times he got stupid calls on his offtime? Or the vast majority of times he gets called on his day off, its a matter of life and death? I dont know, but I’m hardly ready to damn him on so little information.
His sincerity annoucning the discover of James Kim’s body tells you a ton about his character and for me, carries more weight than the US Observer report.
If it turns out he bungled the rescue operation, then there should be consequences for Josephine County’s Sherrif’s office, but even more so, consequences for whichever State Agency had oversight responsibility for rescue operations.
[668, sincerity?].. somehow that word doesn’t seem to fit anderson. could it be he had been promised a nice sum if James were rescued & upon hearing the sad news was overcome with regret for botching his payoff prospect? plausible. if one my sons were in James’ shoes and i discovered that the sar operation was in disarray with time very quickly running out i’d do almost anything and everything possible.
Roy, I agree with much of what you said, even while thinking, just based on the one side I’ve heard, that Brian Anderson and Sara Rubrecht did botch this in many terrible and tragic ways. Still I think you made great points about the changing tone in the Oregonian by different reporters (post 112 link, post 114 comment), questioning whether the US Observer is credible, noting Brian Anderson’s sincerity at the press conference (others might disagree why he was choked up, but I, too, felt it was sincere), and possibly not entirely blaming him for not taking the phone call (depending on policy and if he was expected to take it – that would be one detail where I’d really like to hear the other side – again, if he was the one to call, I’d say it’s negligence – but if not, unfortunate and maybe Sara’s failure by not trying someone else). I do think that if his job was to supervise Sara and/or the coordination, he failed there in a lot of ways.
I don’t mean to sound waffling – in my mind it’s clear, but it’s hard to express. He screwed up in some very important ways, but I don’t think it means he did absolutely everything wrong or didn’t try or didn’t care. Some parts seem black and white, but I keep finding some gray mixed in, too, and maybe if I heard his side I could better piece together my thoughts.
RE:668 / Roy: Excellent points all, esp….”wouldnt be the first elected official bitter about the publics expectations for extraordinary levels of service despite not being willing to pay for them.” How true, as on a national level measures supporting all kinds of services – fire, police, highways, infrastructure, schools – go down to crushing defeats, yet the public always wants more from its public servants.
There are other places in this story where indecision or inaction had far more ominous ramifications. The furor over the phone call is a tempest in a teapot relative to the failure to explore the BLM road after the comments from the owner of Black Bar, and the memo from BLM employees that they saw snowed over tracks before they had to turn around. I have far more questions about Sara R than I do about Anderson.
671 – Paul, so well put. I agree 110%.
tara (655) and Maggie (665) neither of you could possibly care less about saving lives.
[deleted]
If you did care, you’d have long since adopted my specific recommendations and been trying to get the people on this site to agitate for publicizing them. But those recommendations rest on putting a spotlight on the Kims’ negligent misjudgments, and in your world saving their feelings is worth more than saving lives.
[deleted]
sigh
How is it okay for the acting Undersheriff to not take a
call from his SAR coordinator when he knows a familiy is
missing, and they have been missing now for a week, and
that they very well could be in his territory:
“Josephine County Undersheriff Brian Anderson sat down at a desk in a spare bedroom of his Grants Pass, Ore., home on the quiet Wednesday evening of Nov. 29. Anderson, a 46-year-old with reddish hair, flipped on the family computer.
He remembers thinking about the week ahead.
Four weeks earlier, the undersheriff had thought he’d be moving into the sheriff’s office. But in early November, he lost a bitterly fought election, and he just couldn’t bring himself to work for the new sheriff. Instead of moving across the hallway, he was packing up for good.
After the holidays, he’d start a new job in a neighboring county. With any luck, everything would be quiet until then.
The computer beeped as it finished booting. Anderson’s eyes fell on a news bulletin about a San Francisco family that had vanished on a road trip in the Pacific Northwest. After reading that the family was headed to Gold Beach, one thought flashed through his mind: Bear Camp Road.
Anderson knew the road well. In March, he’d helped find members of a family who’d spent two weeks snowbound in their motor home after trying to take Bear Camp Road to the coast. And in 1995, he worked the case of a salesman who’d tried to take back roads from the coast to Grants Pass. Teenagers found the man’s body in his pickup. He’d starved to death.”
[Seattle Times, ]
Notice that Anderson had “worked” the case of the salesman
who starved to death. “Worked?” I wonder what that kind of
work, involves. It definitely doesn’t involve success in
finding a man and saving his life.
By Saturday night, most people in all of the state of Oregon, and much of the rest of the country knew the Kims
had been missing for a week, and were worried about them.
Was Brian Anderson?
Does he have caller Id? On his cellphone I presume?
Please!
And Paul, he is Sara R’s SUPER-VISOR. That means OVER-SEEING. That means he is ultimately responsible for her work. Especially in a major crisis/emergency situation.
That quote was from the article:
[The Seattle Times: Local News: A father’s fateful quest
to save his family]
Even if at this time they thought they had “cleared”
Bear Camp, he knew about all those logging roads, and
how people often get confused.
The MAN WHO STARVED TO DEATH in the CASE HE HAD WORKED
had been on BLM 34-8-36.
Tell me, WOULD YOU WANT THIS MAN IN CHARGE OF A SEARCH
AND RESCUE FOR YOUR FAMILY?
Re: 677*
Sorry, I had thought John Rachor said the man who starved
to death had taken the same BLM road.
Here is an associated press article with what he said:
“A longtime pilot and owner of eight Burger King restaurants who regularly flies his helicopter over the rugged Rogue River Canyon, he got a hunch that James and Kati Kim and their two young daughters had made an all-too-common mistake and taken the Bear Camp Road as a shortcut in winter, when it can be blocked by snow.
When people heading west from Galice to Agness get to a fork near the road’s summit, many mistakenly take the right fork into a area of old logging roads.”
http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2006/12/08/news/news08120806.txt
Still, if he knew about these common mistakes and tendencies, the (acting sheriff) Undersheriff should have
known. And they knew that they hadn’t yet cleared that
that BLM road.
I’m not saying he doesn’t have a caring nerve in his body –
I think he does – they just all mostly care for him.
He didn’t really seem to care until the media put him in
the spotlight.
Then on Sunday Dec. 4th! He organized a search team effort!
That didn’t start till Monday Dec. 5th:
“Up to then, no one had been clearly running the operation. “There was some frustration on the search originally,” Anderson said later, “because there was no clear-cut agency in charge.”
Anderson set up a command post at the Josephine County search-and-rescue headquarters and invited everyone to meet there to pull information together. They ramped up for a full search Monday morning, Dec. 4.
He knew he faced extreme pressure and scrutiny, with “a lot of eyes” watching his every move. He’d heard that James Kim’s father, Spencer Kim, a powerful Korean-American businessman from Los Angeles, had flown in on a private jet and had hired private helicopters to fly over the area. National media were assembling, too, and because of James Kim’s high-tech connections — he was a senior editor at CNET Networks Inc., a technology-themed Web site — the Internet was alive with comment and speculation.”
[that same Seattle Times article reference in post 676]
No “clear-cut agency in charge”? The Sherriff’s office is supposed to be in charge of SAR!
That’s why Sara R was working!
She has a lot of responsibility – but he was her “supervisor.”
Whatever that means… right?
Hey – the game’s on… come on… comfy seat on the couch…
Oh, Am I in the National Media Spotlight? Gee, I think
I’ll do my job…
Actions and lack of actions speak louder than words and
conspicuous sobs when it doesn’t work out…
I’m not saying they were fake – but the Undersheriff
clearly hadn’t cared much earlier on…
I think a lot of it was guilt under the pressure and in the face of the spotlight and all those people who did care…
He knew he could have done more…
(665) If Anderson cared he would have answered the phone – it wasn’t incompetence that disabled him from answering the phone – he couldn’t be bothered with work. It also fits what others are saying about his work ethic…
F the public…give me a break…his directives as UnderSheriff are a disgrace. Look at how many burglaries there were and how many were reviewed. Anderson had a grudge and that grudge left him with a “don’t care” attitude about his job.
Sprinkle a little incompetence on top of the attitude and you have a deadly recipe.
(668) I can’t judge the accuracy of the observer…however an affidavit is an affidavit and if several people are making sworn statements about Anderson – I don’t think it has to do with the observer. We would have to understand the motives of the people making the statement.
I am not sure I understand what you mean the Oregonian changed their tune about Anderson?
Lastly it is easier to understand why Sara R. made the decisions she did…look at the leadership she got from Anderson.
There can be differences of opinion without so much bitter acrimony. Some feel this is a critical issue; others feel it falls somewhere in between; still others feel other issues more critical.
The issue to me is finding ways to improve on future efforts. Anderson is gone from his position and, unlike improving signs; improving maps; discussing ways to more efficiently access/distribute info like the cell phone triangulation; hashing over his role is water under the bridge. Sara R., in contrast, could play a crucial role in future SAR efforts in Josephine county, so I see far more relevance in that.
(681) Good point Paul about Anderson losing his office…although someday he might run again. Unfortunately people tend to have short memories and he could get re-elected. It definitely needs to cleared up what his role, actions, etc and it should be made public. Taxpayers deserve to know.
I do agree until Sara R. is replaced Josephine County has some serious problems to clean up.
Brian Anderson is said to begin his new position in a neighboring county.
Just received an email response from Edward Snook at the US Observer stating there will be an article on Brian Anderson and the search for the Kims on Jan 2 or 3. Reliable or not, it will be interesting to see what it has to say.
(684) That guy at the Observer sounds fishy to me…ah..er…sorry I couldn’t resist! 🙂
Excuse my ignorance, and I did go look at the article, but I know nothing about the US Observer. It looks, in appearance, a bit like a tabloid. Some have criticized it here as utterly unreliable, while others have said otherwise.
Can anyone shed some light on the publisher, the reliability, the goals – if any – of this publication ? Given they are going to do this piece, it would be good to know more.
A bit surprising that the San Fran Chronicle has not picked up on any of this given the local interest.
(568) does anyone understand how the cell tower guys gave the information to two days before we thought? Was it Weinstein in Portland or Ruprecht in Josephine county?
I have a response on my inquiry to Portland Police, she needs me to send her the article questioning some of Weinstein’s actions. I don’t know if I should send her this one as well.
Re: 679-683
First let me say I don’t really feel bitter acrimony –
and certainly nothing at all like that toward most
everyone here.
I do have anger about what I feel are Brian Anderson’s
gross and negligent actions as acting Sheriff even
if his title is Undersheriff.
I feel like he was a big part of the problem in this case.
And I think it’s very important to point that out – and
to point out what he did and did not do that made him
such a big part of the problem.
He’s the one involved who had more experience that Sara R,
(he “worked” the case of the man who starved to death in 1995), and he many very well be the one who trained her.
Plus, as Tara said – he’s going to another county.
When I watched the press conferences about the missing
climbers on Mt. Hood – I could tell that Hood River Sheriff
was a solid, honest man.
When I watched the press conferences about James Kim, I
could tell that Brian Anderson is a man who knows how to
B.S. (not that it was all BS – I could just tell that
he’s that type).
I’m not even sure his choking up was real. How often do
Sheriff’s have to confront the fact that someone has died?
How many Sheriffs have you seen get choked up?
It would be nice to think he felt special about this case,
but most all his actions pointed to the contrary.
I wouldn’t put it past him that the ‘choking up’ was a
kind of ploy. For those who buy it, it almost makes
him an instant ‘good guy’. Awww, look at the Undersheriff –
he’s crying – he cares.
When it could just have easily have meant – ‘I know I did
a really bad job – but please don’t sue me – please
don’t blame me. Look – I’m all broken-up about this’…
Re: 686
The San Fran Chronicle may be a little jealous of the
Oregonian’s investigative reporting – they ‘scooped’ it
first.
Re: 680
I don’t know about the accuracy of the Observer, but it
looks like it’s an underfunded muck-raking operation.
Muck-raking is very important, but it’s not a big seller –
it’s true that they could get sued, so they’re not just
going to be printing a bunch of lies.
Just because I feel strongly about something – doesn’t mean
there’s ‘bitter acrimony’!
I’m just mad about what did and did not happen to try to
save James Kim!
Re: 688 addition
I am fond of most everyone here! Even with our different
nuances and vatiances in opinion.
Re: 687
Susan – yes, I think it would be a good idea to send
that one too. And if you could ask her specifically why
they didn’t send one or more police personnel to the
hotel. It is 5 minutes from the main police station.
And in the case of an entire missing family, you would
think it’s a serious enough case. They send officers out
all the time for small offenses – for a lot less of an emergency/crisis situation than that.
Susan – this is the Oregonlive / Oregonian story about the Edge Wireless tip and Credit Card records. Note the end – it’s really inspiring to me how James Kim’s father is focusing on helping future efforts rather than looking to blame agencies or people who made mistakes and failed to follow up on the key leads – that process might make people feel better but it doesn’t do much to improve the future.
Oregonlive – Wednesday, December 20, 2006
Phone location tip for Kim family went unheeded
The engineer whose cell phone records helped find the Kim family in a search-and-rescue drama that riveted the nation told police the Kims were “most likely in the vicinity of Bear Camp Road” two full days before they were found, according to a Portland police detective’s report.
The Edge Wireless engineer provided a far more precise idea of where to look for James and Kati Kim and their two young daughters than had previously been understood.
The Portland Police Bureau report, released Wednesday, said Detective Michael Weinstein immediately relayed that information the evening of Dec. 2 to the Oregon State Police, which headed the investigation into the San Francisco family’s disappearance.
Yet no detailed search of the logging roads around Bear Camp Road was begun in earnest until two days later.
The Josephine County Sheriff’s Office and state police did not order a search of the area with a heat-seeking helicopter the night they received the information or the next day, even though the Oregon National Guard had one fueled and awaiting orders. Sara Rubrecht, emergency services manager for Josephine County, did not return calls Wednesday seeking comment.
Kati Kim, 30, and daughters Penelope, 4, and Sabine, 7 months, were found Monday, Dec. 4, by a volunteer pilot on a logging road that forks off Bear Camp. James Kim, 35, who had set off for help that Saturday morning, was found dead of hypothermia the morning of Wednesday, Dec. 6.
Eric Fuqua, the Edge Wireless engineer who helped create the network that handles cell phone calls in Southern Oregon, told Detective Weinstein that he traced a “ping” from the Kims’ phone to a particular tower. He said he had a computerized “probability program” that could identify the most likely locations of the Kims’ phone.
Fuqua said he and co-worker Noah Pugsley discovered that one of the Kims’ cell phone numbers registered two very brief hits on the Edge Wireless system in Southern Oregon. Fuqua created a map of every possible area the phone signal could have originated from, and it covered a much wider area than Bear Camp Road.
“Fuqua pointed out that, based on his experience and training, he estimated the Kims’ cell phone was most likely in the vicinity of Bear Camp Road,” the report stated.
On Sunday, Dec. 3, searchers dispatched a four-wheel-drive truck down logging road 34-8-36. The Kims’ Saab station wagon had turned off Bear Camp Road onto this paved spur, which can easily be mistaken as a continuation of the main road.
The truck departed at 1:30 p.m. but could not traverse the snowbound road, county documents showed.
That night, the volunteers in the truck reported their assignment to check the road was “not completed.” The Kims’ car was later found 21 miles down that road.
Lt. Gregg Hastings, a state police spokesman, said official search leaders didn’t send up helicopters because they didn’t know exactly where to look.
According to Hastings, the state police were “aware the map was pointing to Bear Camp Road, but they also thought it could be anywhere within a 26-mile radius. They didn’t understand the map that well.”
The Portland police report recounted several turns in the case at which lack of access to records left investigators frustrated.
For example, the Hotel Lucia in downtown Portland, where the Kims stayed Nov. 24, refused to turn over credit card or cell phone contact information that could help track them, even after Weinstein faxed them a request Nov. 30 on Portland Police Bureau letterhead.
Weinstein’s report said he tried to explain he didn’t have time left in the day to secure a subpoena, and “the Kim family were believed to be in immediate danger.” The hotel’s general manager did not return a call Wednesday seeking comment.
Last week, Spencer Kim sent an e-mail launching a “private-public sector initiative .¤.¤. in honor of James L. Kim, my beloved son.” Kim asked friends and associates to help review laws to allow release of credit card and phone records to next of kin in case of emergency.
He also called for the U.S. Forest Service to enforce restrictions on access to logging roads with clear signs, roadblocks and closed gates during the winter. And he urged making it a federal crime to tamper with those signs and gates.
(673)Pac, I have a serious question. I have seen your reference to you having a solution to save lives. But somehow I have managed to miss what the solution is. I understand you think people have to take personal responsibility and be careful. While I certainly agree that would save lives, it’s only part of the solution. Even if everyone did a better job of planning and watching and being more careful, people would still get lost. Humans make mistakes. So I guess I honestly don’t get your objection to a two part solution. First let’s all continually take more responsibility for our own safety, and second, let’s continually work to improve SAR coordination and communication methods.
Also – I don’t have a lot of time today – so I can’t
be participating as much as I would like.
Re: 681
Paul – I agree that ultimately what’s most important is
finding ways to improve future efforts, I just think
that understanding as much as we can about what went wrong
and what could have been done better is important to
those efforts.
Re: 678
The quoted paragraphs:
“Anderson set up a command post at the Josephine County search-and-rescue headquarters and invited everyone to meet there to pull information together. They ramped up for a full search Monday morning, Dec. 4.”
This should have happened on Nov. 30.
(688) Brian Anderson has had media training through the FBI. He knows what is expected of him in front of the camera and he needs to be professional to get the facts out.
It is my belief that his tears were real…however they were created from guilt and shame.
(691) Susan…all I can say…well P.T. Barnum said it better than me. 🙂
LOL
Re: 693
I haven’t ruled that out about the tears glenn –
I guess I’m just not sure what they were about.
I do have a feeling he was afraid of being sued.
I got a response from Lauri Stewart of the Portland Police, shd is from the Independent Police Review Division
Here’s is my email back to her:
Thanks Lauri,
Here is the article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/10/FAMILY.TMP&feed=rss.news
I have four basic concerns:
1. If you are in charge of a department where your work can literally be a matter of life and death, there should be someone else when you are in out for any reason.
2. A fax and phone call on police letterhead is not adequate when requesting credit card information. Anyone could create a fax or make a call, I understand the hotel’s concern. Did Weinstein have an officer actually drive over there? I understand it’s only five miles away from the police station. He said he didn’t have time to get a supena, isn’t there a way to expedite that in a true emergency?
3. It sounds like all the possible cell towers in the area were not contacted and given the Kim’s cell phone numbers to see if they could help. Why was that not done immediately?
4. It sounds like Weinstein was trying to get the cell phone numbers from that hotel. Why not get them from the family and friends, probably all of whom knew both numbers and would have gladly released them. That would save time. Actually, maybe that’s why the hotel didnt’ believe him, if it was a legitimate call, why would the family not give the police the cell numbers? And wouldn’t the point of getting the cell phone numbers so to contact all possible cell phone towers for help?
(694) By the way, Peter from the Oregonian seems to be getting into the story. Some good old-fashioned investigative reporting.
(639) take his performance in this situation, added to his comments about the f public, added to his assocation with the sheriff and the chicken that was stomped to death, and the harassment of bikers on a poker run (normally poker runs are to raise money for charity). Does not create a pretty picture. I have to admit, I fell for the tears. I did not even get suspicious until I learned he was Sara R’s supervisor and I kept wondering where the real sherriff was.
690 – Joe, I agree that it is really nice to see Spencer Kim looking toward future changes – the events that have already happened can’t be undone, but maybe some of them can be prevented. We can have differing ideas of who is or isn’t to blame and to what degree, but none of that brings James back to his family. I do think that an official review with all of the facts and both sides of the story should happen to ensure that qualified and competent people are in key positions in this specific local area, but far more reaching than that could be policies such as Mr. Kim suggested related to getting vital credit card/cell phone information and what can be done about poorly marked and confusing forest service/logging roads that can be deadly to the unsuspecting. At a time when Mr. Kim could easily retreat into his grief, he’s taking action to see what can be done to save someone else’s son. I think that’s a good thing. Just my opinion.
(699) I agree it is a good thing what Mr. Kim is doing. We all handle our grief differently and I must suppose he is trying to make something positive out this horrible situation.
As far as discussing who did what, who didn’t do what…I would be willing to bet that if it weren’t for all the blogging and online discussions this information and news reports would have unfolded so quickly. This process of discussion (both good and bad) is necessary to wiggle out the truth because for some reason humans will do almost anything to keep the truth from coming out.
Does the truth bring James back?…absolutely not. Will it do anything for the Kim’s?…probably not much if anything.
Will it give the next county that hires these individuals get a chance to correct another of the same mistake? You would hope so – the next family that has a member that is lost and has a successful rescue due to new checks and balances in place to stop these mistakes from even happening will be forever grateful to those complete strangers that took their time to get to the bottom of things.
Interesting (and disturbing) how Anderson was the person in charge of the 1995 missing person case…the Kim case could have been an identical result if it weren’t the volunteers! It doesn’t look like to me that Anderson learned anything from the 1995 experience…that is dangerous.
(700) Think about how different the Kim situation could have been if we had blogs like this back in 1995…
Re: 695
Susan the letter is excellent!
There’s only one technicality in 2): the main police
station is only a 5 minute (not mile) drive from the
hotel. They are both downtown, only a few blocks apart –
so there’s even more reason why it would have been easy
and in the best interest of the search to send an officer
there. (But when she looks into it, she’ll know that.)
Re: 698
It’s true, but I want to make it clear that my main
interest here is not some kind of character assassination.
This is just an instance where character and circumstance seem to have a great influence on effort, and there is
a cause and effect relationship.
He didn’t really start to do his job until:
“He knew he faced extreme pressure and scrutiny, with “a lot of eyes” watching his every move. He’d heard that James Kim’s father, Spencer Kim, a powerful Korean-American businessman from Los Angeles, had flown in on a private jet and had hired private helicopters to fly over the area. National media were assembling, too, and because of James Kim’s high-tech connections — he was a senior editor at CNET Networks Inc., a technology-themed Web site — the Internet was alive with comment and speculation.””
It shouldn’t take knowing that there are “a lot of eyes”
(his own words) on you to do your job.
Especially when you are acting Sheriff, and there is an
SAR effort under your ‘watch’.
I am more hopeful about the majority of Sheriffs in Oregon and around the country, but maybe something needs to be done
to reinforce and re-energize the ideals of honor and duty
that accompany the position.
Or maybe SAR training literature needs to re-energize these
ideals.
Clearly in this case, they were lacking until put in the
spotlight.
700 – Glenn, I agree that discussion with various opinions is very important and even helpful in getting to the bottom of some of the many questions.
I’ve read quite a bit about the similar but also different 1995 DeWitt Finley case, but I have not been able to find enough information about Brian Anderson’s role/actions in that case to form much of an opinion on how it was handled – obviously Mr. Finley died, so it wasn’t a “success,” but it doesn’t necessarily mean that something different should have been done – even great detectives can’t always find every missing person. DeWitt Finley’s girlfriend at the time has recently expressed that the roads should have been closed in winter – hopefully this time something will be done. It would definitely be interesting to know more about Brian Anderson’s role in that case – too bad there wasn’t something like this blog commentary back then to see what people were thinking.
I agree that if not for the volunteers, this could have ended even more tragically because whatever my ideas about who’s to blame and how much, I do believe that huge and inexcusable mistakes/inactivity/incompetence by those in paid positions really botched this one.
deleted at request of author
(704) I know they have put up more signs on Bear Camp Rd…but they really should have some follow up process to gather surveys from locals, tourists, etc if the signs are effective. There are so many people that haven’t gotten lost there…there should be a way to find out who they are and ask them their opinion on what should be changed to make it safer…
I am not sure if there is a follow up process after a change it made…but if there were I would think they would get good feedback about the changes.
I want to be clear – personally, I don’t believe in blame for blames’s sake.
But I believe in understanding cause and effect, especially
when precious lives have been lost because of it.
Re: 705
Yes, glenn – I think the signs need to be stronger
and more definitive. For example starting Nov. 1 –
“Road Closed in Winter – No Thru Route” something like
that.
It also seems like the sign at the major fork between
Bear Camp and BLM 34-8-36 needs to be larger and clearer.
And maybe BLM 34-8-36 should have a sign at the fork
that says “No Thru Route”.
I have to go now! I’ll check in later!
p.s. Undersheriff Anderson and the other details in this case is just a good example of what doesn’t work and provides analysis for future cases.
Re: 706 clarify
I don’t believe in blame just for blame’s sake.
But I do believe in responsibility and accountability
especially with public officials and public servants, and even more so when lives are at stake or have been lost.
Re: 700, 703
Maggie, glenn, Paul, everyone – I also believe that general discussion and varying opinons are very helpful and needed!
Now for focusing on the good stuff – Happy Holidays!
706-710 / Lisa: Can you earn frequent flier miles blogging 🙂
*** Happy Holidays! ***
SUSAN gets my vote for most initiative on outreach – kudos to her concerted efforts to reach out to so many and convert our collective wisdom into actions / research / answers / articles.
Re: 711
Paul – That would be very convenient at this point! This story inspired me – I had never blogged before!
And actually the rest of my life needs more attention!
***Thanks for the Happy Holidays!***
Also
Re: 712
I agree wholeheartedly! ***Huge Kudos Susan!***
***Thank you!***
(702) Isn’t it interesting how people act and how hard they try at something when they know they are going to be held accountable.
Lisa your point about the scrutiny and pressure is spot-on…once Anderson knew the stakes (politically) he sprung into action – I nearly want to throw up now when I remember him saying – “We are treating him like one of our own”.
Isn’t the thought of saving a human life enough of a stake to motivate someone?
Glenn “isn’t the thought of saving a human life enough of a stake to motivate someone?”
apparently not. an example.. our planet 25000+ children die every DAY because of malnutrition effects.. nobody much cares. betcha my even mentioning it will raise some shackles.. tough.
Re: 714
glenn – thanks to you too! You have been a tower of
strength, support, and well-balanced reasoning! And yes, at times a dueling master – it is hard not to pick up the sword!
It’s true that accountability is so important – especially
with ‘good old boy’ in-club types as referenced in one of the Observer articles (and as you can see sometimes in
Washington D.C…!)
Some people too easily get too cushy and selfish with
their power, and unfortunately they are thinking mostly
of themselves and little of other people.
It seems that Anderson may have been quite the ‘good old
boy’ comfy slacker much of his time in public service.
He makes a very good example of why accountability is so
important!
Re: 715
Thanks Kip for your sincerity and recent more frequent contributions too!
It’s true that there are many needs and cares in our world,
and they can be overwhelming. But there are people who are
trying to make things better – often people who have the
money to do so (like the Gates Foundation and Bono, various Christian and other religious organizations, etc.). But there also those with other qualities and quantities to give… If it was more simple to fix it all, I think even more people would be involved. But a lot of people in this
country do give donations to such causes. Some problems are more local, and easier to try to resolve. This is not meant to be an excuse, more just how I see things at this time, and ultimately here there is too much to go into…
Again, just passing through… ***Happy Holidays!***
Kip (715) is an excellent point that’s been giving me some mental troubles. We could already have saved many lives by devoting the time and resources to the “high ROI” stuff like malaria prevention and intestinal diseases in 3rd world. Of course this is true about many of our priorities and I agree it’s somewhat misguided to focus on the “more interesting” stuff like wilderness rescues over the “high return” good actions like global health. However I also think it’s part of our human nature to relate to things in this emotional and “irrational” way.
I think this particular saga has unique features that make it very compelling, especially to other American families.
PacNWer – just comment without the personal attacks. You are mixing in legitimate comments with insults and I don’t have the time to edit your comments as I just did in #673, so I may just delete your posts from this point forward unless you stop adding the insult stuff.
Here on the local news channels tonight they have pretty much all been reporting this:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122206_news_gov_kim_report.360502e8.html
Governor requests review of Kim search
03:03 PM PST on Friday, December 22, 2006
By FRANK MUNGEAM, kgw.com Staff
SALEM, Ore. — Gov. Ted Kulongoski met with Friday with representatives from the Oregon Office of Emergency Management, Oregon National Guard and Oregon State Police regarding the search and rescue effort in Southwest Oregon for the Kim family earlier this month.
At the meeting, the Governor requested a report to detail the facts and timeline surrounding the efforts undertaken by state agencies involved in the search.
Several newspaper articles in the past week have questioned the effectiveness of the search for the Kim family.
Questions raised about effectiveness of search
“It is my hope that after we obtain the facts around this search effort, that we can come together – state and local entities – to review our respective roles and identify ways to strengthen our coordination, communication and search efforts in the future,” Gov. Kulongoski said.
“After this report at the state level is completed, I will appoint a task force, working with local and state entities, to review our collective approach to search and rescue efforts and develop recommendations for how to strengthen this partnership across state and local jurisdictions.”
The report is due to the Governor’s office by January 5, 2007.
That’s a good sign, I think.
718 – Thank you Joe.
719 – Given the early inter-agency confusion when the Kim’s first went missing, and the subsequent miscues at the county level, this is a welcome development. We’ve all been clamoring for a more intense scrutiny of the actions (or lack thereof) of Anderson and Sara R and others, it looks like we’ll get it. How much of this will see the light of day and public disclosure remains to be seen, but the fact that it seems it will happen is encouraging.
Excellent!! I hope we get to see as much of it as possible!
(781) LOL
(719) Thanks for posting that Maggie…that is good news…given the statement “…ways to strengthen our coordination, communication and search efforts in the future…” it looks as he understands where the problems are…
I am not so sure they had too many problems with the actual searching…they just weren’t told the right place to search.
My request would be that the report be made public. Any info on that possibility?
Glenn, (723) it must be some kind of blog foul to laugh at yet to be posted postings….
I think he meant 718!
(727) ywh od u ysa thta?
Re: 719
Yes, thanks for posting that Maggie! I think it’s
tremendously exciting!
I would like to see it all, and hope that is possible.
But even if it’s not or it’s full of bureaucratease
(‘bureaucratic language!’), I’m just so excited that
Kulongoski’s addressing it so quickly! Due by January 5,
that’s fast!
Re: 728
stuj a ldiw sesug!
I hope at least some of it will be made public, but I’m not sure how much of that kind of thing usually is either. I’ll be keeping an eye out for it after Jan 5th just in case. I do agree that it is encouraging, whether we get to see it or not, especially if it promotes better coordination between agencies. I agree Glenn that the problem seems not to be with the tireless searchers themselves but the direction the were(n’t) given.
Re: 719,729
I have a feeling that as Govenor, as an Oregonian, as a father, and as a caring individual, watching it all unfold really bothered him too!
(733) How can we know to tell u not to say them if we don’t know what u r going to say?
Re: 734
They’re on the dark side. Not extremely so – but
enough to qualify.
Also glenn – I could email them to you!
glennforum@yahoo.com? Do you want me to?
(737) sure of course…np
I have to go – I’ll check later to see if you reply…
KGW-8 just mentioned on their newscast (but didn’t see it on their website) that the Oregonian will be doing another article tomorrow addressing search and rescue in Oregon. I didn’t catch all of it, but in addition to the James Kim ordeal, they mentioned “Sammie” Boehlke, the 8-year old boy that went missing at Crater Lake this past October and was never found.
And here’s that article in the Oregonian this morning:
http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1166855457244220.xml?oregonian?lcfp&coll=7
It’s good to see that some serious thought is being given to the current issues facing SAR operations and how these issues can be improved. It’s also nice to see that the Oregonian’s reports helped to make Governor Kulongoski take notice.
OK folks, I’ve been following this a bit and throwing my little bit of opinion every once in awhile.
A couple of things…
The first so, so minor. Susan, the cell TOWERS don’t have the information. All of that info lies with the cell companies. The authorites can’t contact the TOWERS. Those are just structures without an office sitting below. I’m sorry, but that has bothered me. There wern’t hundred of towers to contact, just several cell providers that can give access to what calls went thru those towers.
Second: to my knowledge, Brian Anderson wasn’t responsible for the death of that man that sat up there for 66 days. Or however many it was. From what I’ve understood, no one even reported him missing. Or at least on Bear Camp. It sounds like the guy could have walked out and rescued himself, but instead he relied on his GOD to save him. Don’t blame Mr. Anderson for that. If you think I’m his cheerleader, you couldn’t be further from the truth. I was one of the first here (prior to the media reports and to some consternation) that stated the LE/SAR effort may have been incompetent.
Also, the family that got stranded last year was NOT on Bear Camp. They were north of the river. This is what I see as the biggest problem on this blog. Way too much mis-information. I could point out other details that people seem to get crossed on if I were to go back and re-read everything.
Hey, I’m not perfect nor do I expect everyone else to be, but don’t go spouting off with mangled facts, at least without admitting that your “ain’t” positive if they really are facts. I’m not sure why I keep tabs on this blog except to see who’s going to come out on top: PacNW or all his detractors.
Don’t get me wrong – I think that a clearinghouse of useful information could help in future efforts. All the soap opera stuff is not helping.
Just hoping to head off an argument…
Before all you jump down my throat about saying the soap opera stuff ain’t helping and at the same time mentioning my interst on who comes on top: PacNW or all the others… it is called sarcasm.
742 – rem, I agree that this is an incredible place for great info/ideas to hopefully bring better success to future efforts. I also agree on some of the misinformation/assumptions that creep in once in awhile and sometimes, maybe not even intentionally, appear to be presented as fact rather than as assumptions/ideas/opinions. I’m no more thrilled with Brian Anderson right now than anyone, but the idea of Brian Anderson having something to do with DeWitt Finley starving to death in his car in 1995 is one that I’ve tried finding information or a connection and really just couldn’t – I’d really be interested to read more about it if someone has found a link, I just couldn’t find anything related to him being reported missing or any known clues or searching attempts. The Stiver’s family last March may have intended to take Bear Camp Road, but they instead wound up in Douglas County (possibly from a point quite earlier on Galice Road than even the NF23 fork), and there were even fewer clues than for the Kim’s – at one point it even looked like a possible criminal case or kidnapping – and Brian Anderson was not in charge of the case. I’m glad that the trolls and their response feedings have mellowed out to almost silence so that it’s easier to read the really good thoughts and ideas and comments without having to sort/scroll through muck.
Wow, I haven’t been able to be on for several days. I tried checking in last night,but was just too tired. I knew there’d be a lot to catch up on, but it’s going to take several days, if I can catch up. Not going to comment until, unless I can catch completely up.
Anyway, going back through the last handful of post, it does look like something is going to be done.
(742) Hi Rem…You make a good point…when we make mistakes it should be cleared up. I think we all want accurate data. There is a lot of good information here as well…sure mistakes were made (names wrong, etc…) but the majority of the information is probably closer to the truth than not.
One of the reasons this blog has some activity is Joe Hunkins was right on where the searchers should have been looking – and that was before there was any information.
So I for one am glad that you are willing to help and correct some of the information however I think at the same time it would be proper to recognize all the good information that is here. As far as I know all the people here are putting in their own time to help figure this out – none of us are paid reporters, etc.
Peter Sleeth and The Oregonian have read this thread and talked to several people posting here to aid in formulating their reporting.
(742) Oh yeah for the detractor stuff that has gone on here…I have one thing to say…
LOL
Re 715, 717
Good points. Dont know that I have an answer, but working within one’s “sphere of influence” is perhaps partly a justification.
And a lot of effort is being put into malnutrition. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation gave out huge money last year to fund development of more nutritious crops for the developing world. Furthermore, many plant biologists around the world are working on such issues with funding from their respective governments ie taxpayer money ie your money.
One makes a contribution if your day to day actions contribute to the infrastructure of the USA, thereby allowing the US to have the political/governmental foundation necessary to enable scientific, economic and military power to take on such problems on a global scale.
Part of what oils our country’s wheels is our expectation that people perform their jobs competently in the pubic and private sectors along with the demand for accountability.
742 / Good points all…I’ve noted the same at times and tried to correct the ones I know something about, but there have been others where I wasn’t sure (like the guy in ’95, my memory is no one even knew he was missing in that area, but I could be totally wrong). Another is personnal attacks that go beyond the facts & comments on peoples character and/or motivations that really are unverifiable without being inside their heads. Joe said if far better than I can: “…it might make people feel better but it doesn’t do much to improve the future.” I include myself in that critique as I have been guilty at times of doing it too.
“When searches cover multiple counties, gaps in communication can be crucial. The Oregon State Police took control of the Kim search for that reason. Yet, the state police has no resources dedicated to search and rescue. Even its planes lack heat-sensing radar that can locate lost people in the woods at night.” Above from Oregonian
— Very promising news from your Governor and especially from the County Sheriffs in Southern Oregon. That is a great sign.
Heat sensor radar lacking for the Oregon State Police Aircraft ?–If this is a budget high cost issue, I would check with DoD and Coast Guard for some used, excess, serviceable “sensor equipment”. With the billions being spent in Iraq and Afghan and the Big Search for Osama, I hope that US Army aircraft have the absolute latest technology and maybe some perfectly good stuff is available for transfer free of charge to the individual States. I imagine the log support for the State Police know this. The POC in DoD is Defense Logistics Agency. More particularly, these guys:
DRMS Customer Service
(Comm) 1-877-352-2255
DSN 661-7766
Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service
Hart Dole Inouye Federal Center
74 Washington Ave. N
Battle Creek, MI. 49017-3092
Easy to say, (this is not like ordering from Amazon.com) in reality, you would have to be persistent, and probably hunt around the whole aviation log system (Redstone Arsenal) to see what is available, and push the “system” to make it avail for transfer to Oregon.
Again, I hope the log folks at the State know this, have pulsed the system and come up dry. Easy to give a suggestion, difficult to actually make it happen.
(750) Ideas and $3.50 will get you a cup of joe at Starbucks! You are absolutely right execution is everything!
Re: 742 (745,746)
This is where I got most of that information from
The Seattle Times/Oregonian article:
“Anderson knew the road well. In March, he’d helped find members of a family who’d spent two weeks snowbound in their motor home after trying to take Bear Camp Road to the coast. And in 1995, he worked the case of a salesman who’d tried to take back roads from the coast to Grants Pass. Teenagers found the man’s body in his pickup. He’d starved to death.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003470308_ordeal10.html
I try to only use facts that I have read in articles or
reports to form my opinions. This seems to be a case
where facts were perhaps too general. But this is where
I got them from!
Very Important!
I never ever said Anderson was “responsible” for death
of the salesman who starved.
I did say that he didn’t seem to learn much from it.
I implied that maybe he hadn’t done a good job.
I did presume at one point, since he said he “worked”
that case, that there had been a search and rescue effort.
Perhaps his work was only a recovery effort.
It’s a shame there’s not more information.
I try to use facts to form my opinions, and I usually try
to cite them. After a while, that becomes quite a lot of
quoting and requoting.
As far as I know, blogs are for opinions – not facts only.
And I am frustrated and angry about the death of James
Kim. I’m not trying to hide it, and I’m not numb.
Maggie, glenn, rem – all good points made!
But rem it sounds like you may be skimming – maybe your
rapid eye movement is too fast when you read! Joke!
Maybe you like opinions to be stated differently. But if
it was all so dry and restrained – it would be dull.
We all have different interests and feelings about this –
that’s why it’s a forum.
(752) if he could read while rem’ing that would be worth something – I would actually go back to reading books at least in my sleep.
Here are some more facts upon which affected my opinion
of Brian Anderson, from local investigative reporters:
“Josephine County, OR – Recently, several ex-Josephine County sheriff deputies along with one on-duty officer have stepped forward with affidavits claiming that on many occasions Brian Anderson, current undersheriff, made disparaging remarks toward the public in briefings to his staff saying, “F— ’em. They get what they pay for.” According to an affidavit Anderson even went on to say that he would release the prisoners of the jail if the public didn’t want to fund it and let them deal with the criminals. In the affidavits Anderson also instructed deputies not to respond to anything other than emergency calls. Included as well was information alleging Anderson allowed “false investigations against deputies to proceed despite his knowledge the deputies were innocent,” because they didn’t belong to the “A Team” – a group some in the department call the good-old-boy club that currently exists. One of the affidavits even cites specific criminal misconduct. The US~Observer has also obtained a recent letter written by Grants Pass Chief of Police Joe Henner stating that the city police will no longer back the sheriff’s department unless it is an absolute emergency. This is because there are no procedures in place within the sheriff’s department to take care of many situations they face. In his letter Henner specifically mentioned that he had previously brought this to the attention of Undersheriff Anderson, but that no procedures have as yet been adopted. These affidavits and the letter by the city police chief come at a pivotal point for Anderson who is seeking to be elected as the county sheriff in the upcoming election on the grounds that he is well qualified for the position and has been doing a good job as undersheriff.”
http://www.usobserver.com/archive/oct-06/andersonfem.htm
Re: 754 typo no “upon”
Also, I think this quote from the same paragraph should
be highlighted (even though it pertains to city police – I think that there are “no procedures in place within the
sheriff’s department to take care of many situations
they face” is also telling):
“The US~Observer has also obtained a recent letter written by Grants Pass Chief of Police Joe Henner stating that the city police will no longer back the sheriff’s department unless it is an absolute emergency. This is because there are no procedures in place within the sheriff’s department to take care of many situations they face. In his letter Henner specifically mentioned that he had previously brought this to the attention of Undersheriff Anderson, but that no procedures have as yet been adopted.”
You could speculate that some of the above played a role in his recent election loss.
Lisa, yes, I do skim at times trying to skip over some of the personal bickering. But when people are actually discussing the subject of this blog, I read and sometimes even re-read each comment. Perhaps I totally misinterpreted your words in #733 – “I had a couple dark thoughts today about Anderson, and the man who starved to death” – but it implied to me that you felt somehow Anderson was at least partially ‘responsible’ for his demise. I’m not sure how else that statement could be taken.
I feel it a mistake to make such a large leap of logic to think that because Anderson “worked the case” that he failed on a rescue mission. LE often works cases where they are not even involved until a dead body is found.
Opinions are great, but if they are stated as if to imply they are factual it clouds the issues for everyone else.
Susan, 691, the thing to do is publicize the Kims’ misjudgments and the likely reason for them, which quite strongly appears to be get-there-itis, or in more formal terms the sunk-cost fallacy. This is a well-recognized syndrome in aviation and has been traced to plenty of fatalities.
In light of that, people should be cautioned that:
1. They should actively resist letting a journey’s goal interfere with common sense along the way. The Kims’ misjudgments were egregious, but a lot of drivers do some pretty foolish things in their haste to reach a destination. Probably the most common is driving when they’re too fatigued to be on the road.
2. The Pacific Northwest’s “temperate rainforest” climate does not mean that it’s always benign up here. If you leave the main roads, you must be prepared. Have clothing appropriate for the season, and if it’s wintertime be sure to have a full tank of gas, tire chains and an emergency kit.
3. The Pacific Northwest is big. Oregon alone is the 7th largest state in the country, and is 1.5x the size of all of the New England. If you get lost, there’s a pretty good chance you will stay lost, so it’s all the more reason to be on guard when leaving main roads.
These specific messages will save lives, especially if linked to the egregious misjudgments seen in an incident that got so much attention nationwide. If you people seriously want to save lives rather than engage in meaningless feel-good blather, you’d be out there urging newspapers and TV to send to message not to do what the Kims did.
But see, you people don’t care about saving lives. Your goal, whether you know it or not, is to soothe Kati Kim’s poor, negligent heart from the consequences of her and her husband’s failures that night. Fine ‘n dandy, children, but don’t sit here and tell anyone you’re doing any good for the public because it’s exactly the other way around.
(757) Hi rem…not trying to pick a fight here…and Lisa does a fine job stipulating her reasons and position. I feel compelled to respond since I took away a very different read on what she had posted.
It looks like you made the leap of logic about Anderson from Lisa’s statements. Nothing Lisa said would have me believe she was stating a fact but merely pondering the many aspects of Anderson’s involement.
When I read Lisa’s comment I took it as…strange that Anderson didn’t seem learn anything about the salesman case and applied it here – from what I understand in the salesman’s case they did know he was missing but they never went far enough up the road to look for him.
If you really look into the facts around Anderson it seems pretty obvious that under his leadership (or lack thereof) that the county has numerous problems specifically in the area of procedures, etc. Please remember they allowed this man to carry a gun and shoot at people if he wanted to – I don’t think any of us would want any LEO to discharge a firearm without proper procedures in place.
Also I think a lot of what we are reading are all the small building blocks that ultimately lead up to failure and as the leader – Anderson certainly bears the brunt.
If Anderson is really as bad as it looks – Josephine County did the right thing by voting him out of the position – too bad for the Kim family it didn’t happen at the last election.
LOL^6
okay…
rem I see your point about the cell towers. I wanted to say something about that too but figured it wasn’t really an important point. I get irritated sometimes because I have a lot of government and technical experience (yet less than some others) and sometimes I believe I have a bit more to go off than some of the people here. Yet, I would never discourage people from taking the time to learn these things as they go and talk them out. I myself try to stick to what I know, and comment on that. Because I think we all have specialities and its great to come to a forum where we all can contribute and…the truth tends to start to shine through the mass of info. And of course, were going to have judgements and feelings, opinions, that we can express with the hope that someone else here already knows something in that area, or has a fact, or it will inspire new research to be done.
However, I am so annoyed by some people talking about certain people (okay, P,O,MM) and then acting like they are not part of the response to those people. Talking ABOUT them is also going off subject, if your so inclined to point out that its off subject.
I really dont care, anymore. I’d rather defend the Kim’s at this point because that to me is about as useful as I feel I can be now. I dont know that Joe created this blog to be of use to the public to air out the SAR effort, the Kim’s choices, their route, etc. I know that some of us are going to in the future direct our energy into trying to use the internet and our personal skills to see what we can do, as a group. We will have a new and separate place to do that. But this, well, I think people can say whatever they want, that is of interest to the Kim case, that is withing respect of Joe, and is not a personal insult.
I have been insluted enough by P, O, MM at times enough to speak up on the Kim’s behalf. If ingorning them, or talking about them like they are not here were the magic answer to them, maybe I would hop on that bandwagon. But I dont think its fair to try to control…a forum.
This has been an emotional and interesting, multi-faceted story. Everyone has a different background, set of skills, specialities, viewpoints and I am glad Joe has only censored a few people, as some people are shy and do not want to post here if they feel there are too many rules, and that they will be trashed for their opinion not being focused enough.
Off subject — Happy Holidays!
susan (691) go look at post (15) it will make more sense.
758 – Pac, those are all three very excellent points, and I do think that it’s an important message to hear. I’ve made similar mistakes in the past, been lucky, and after what happened to the Kim’s, hopefully will not take the same risks.
I also think that people will still be people and will still make mistakes either not getting your message above or thinking they are exempt somehow (I’ve been guilty), so I hope that we will also have good plans and coordinators in place to find someone who still got lost.
(758) What term do you have for driving over 90mph on the highway?
Re: 751, 769
Thanks glenn and mapper!
Re: 757
Opinions are not only “great” – they are allowed!
I have more to say but it gets into verbal technicalities,
and I’m not sure that’s really what’s needed (I had
written up a lengthier, more detailed response, and then I lost my online connection!).
Look I have never intentionally tried to force my opinion
on anyone – I have expressed it – and I think everyone
knows the difference between stated, quoted facts and
personal opinion.
I shouldn’t beat a dead horse, or poor Mr. DeWitt Finley either but when Lisa says in post #704: “In 1995, that man gave Anderson 66 days to find him, and he still didn’t do it! He didn’t even find him dead – teenagers did!” it sounds like she is stating a fact that Anderson knew Finley was missing in his jurisdiction from day 1. If others read this without having any other background they might start thinking that it is gospel.
I can not find a single article that even mentions a SAR effort to find him. I’m GUESSING that Anderson never knew his name until they found his driver’s license in the truck. You can demonize Anderson all you want (maybe he deserves it) but you aren’t adding any credibility when you charge him with misdeeds he did not commit.
As my good buddy Bill O’Reilly would say: Lisa, I’ll give you the last word. (just a little humor to lighten us all up – Bill isn’t really my buddy)
thats the magic of the mass Rem, you came up withe a good point, you found an inaccuracy and corrected it, yet Lisa did a lot of good research and made many good points. To me you two just proved how good this kind of system can work!
As I recall from watching a one hour Dateline back in the late 90’s, DeWitt Finley’s family reported him missing when he did not return home from a sales trip to SW OR. No one knew where to look for him… He could’ve been anywhere between the southern OR coast and Montana.
(766) beating a dead horse…giddy up…giddy up
In any event…in your post (757) that I responded to you had mentioned post (733) which did not have the statements that you just mentioned (gave Anderson 66 days to find him, etc…) so my response was directly related to post (733).
As far as Finley goes…I believe they did look for him – the records are minimal but I remember reading something to that affect – I could be wrong. I am going to see if I can find it.
579… “If Anderson is really as bad as it looks – Josephine County did the right thing by voting him out of the position – too bad for the Kim family it didn’t happen at the last election.”
Undersheriff is not an elected position. From what I have read, Sheriff Daniels chose Anderson for the position of undersheriff. Anderson was running for sheriff in the last election and lost. Sheriff Daniels had been on sick leave for some time and that is why Anderson was in charge when this happened with the Kim’s.
(770) thanks for the clarification…i had that totally wrong.
Re: 766
If you read the quote from the article upon which I
was basing my opinion, it says that he “worked the case”. He was working in the Sheriff’s office at the time. The Sheriff’s office is in charge of SAR. So it seems logical that it was an SAR case.
Of course now, we can’t prove that or find enough information. But at the time, I stated that opinion, I
thought, again – logically – that it was a failed SAR
effort.
Now according to you: “I feel it a mistake to make such a large leap of logic to think that because Anderson “worked the case” that he failed on a rescue mission. LE often works cases where they are not even involved until a dead body is found.”
He’s not just LE – he’s Sheriff’s office which is in charge
of SAR.
So when according to you, is it okay to say a “rescue mission” failed?
Re: 772 addition
Maybe it has to do with the meaning of “rescue”?
(773) yeah Anderson seems to get recovery and rescue confused…maybe he need a policy for that…or at least a dictionary.
(Laughing – in a friendly way) Lisa, I was trying to live up to my promise of giving you the last word (unlike Bill, who doesn’t always) but then you asked me a question.
My point on that was that “working a case” could very well have been making sure there was no foul-play involved with Mr. Finley’s death. It doesn’t say specifically it was a SAR mission. I’m hoping Glenn can find info regarding the extent, if any, that a SAR took place. Here’s one possible scenerio: Since he was missing over such a wide area – Oregon to Montanta according to one report I’ve read here – then it might have just been a bulletin at Anderson’s office to be on the lookout for his truck. When the teenagers found his body then it became a “case to work”.
You asked when is it ok to say a rescue mission failed… not sure exactly what you are asking on that – regarding Finley I was only stating that it is possible that a SAR never took place. Anyway, a failed SAR doesn’t necessarily relfect on the competence or effort of the would-be rescuers. So far I have not heard any criticism of the Mt Hood or Crater Lake missions that didn’t have positive results.
Also, I have never heard someone who has passed, being
discovered as being “rescued”.
And I looked it up, and the Webster’s def. I found says
“to save from danger.”
At this point, I feel you are missing the point…
775 – rem, I’m agreeing with you on this since I’ve not been able to find anything showing that there ever was an actual rescue operation to have failed. If there was, and if Anderson was in charge or called upon to play a key role, then yes, I’d suppose it could be considered that he “failed.” Still, many missing people are never found, like you mentioned about Mt Hood and the boy at Crater Lake, even when there are good efforts and an operation that performs well. I’ll say again, I’m no fan of Anderson or how this operation went (botched, in my opinion), but I’m not ready to blame other missing persons cases in SW Oregon on him without more information.
What point am I missing? That Anderson screwed up the Finley case so that adds to his list of misdeeds? What I am saying is that there hasn’t been any substansiating that he did truly mess up the Finley case.
As for you comment in 778 — I’ve already stated I was one of the first on this forum to question the competence of the authorities in the Kim SAR. Go back to the previous page and you’ll see I brought it up prior to any news reporting about it.
Re: 775
And how can you say this:
“I feel it a mistake to make such a large leap of logic to think that because Anderson “worked the case” that he failed on a rescue mission. LE often works cases where they are not even involved until a dead body is found.”
And then say this?:
“You asked when is it ok to say a rescue mission failed… not sure exactly what you are asking on that ”
You just told me that you “feel it a mistake” to say
that “he failed on a rescue mission.”
So, is it never okay to say someone failed on a rescue mission?
Maybe it wasn’t SAR, but doesn’t it seem like a logical
assumption that it might have been given that the man
was missing and the Sheriff’s office who is usually in charge of SAR, “worked the case.”
Given all the evidence and all the facts we do have about
these two cases and Anderson, what I said as an “opinion” based upon his inaction in the Kim case and the facts I knew at the time, and was it was not all that “out there”.
764, I think they call it “a speeding ticket.”
To all, the points in my message 758 would be enhanced in proportion to the degree that Kati Kim would come out an candidly tell the truth about the events and decisions that led them to their ultimate parking place on Saturday, Nov. 25th.
If the goal is to save lives, there would be nothing more effective than a series of public service announcements from Kati Kim, broadcast in the cities of the West Coast, that said, in essence, “Don’t do what we did.”
Believe me, if she did that, I still wouldn’t be calling her husband a hero but I’d have a hell of a lot of respect for her. Telling the truth is never easy, and that goes triple when the truth winds up being a confession of one’s own errors. But it would it would absolutely save lives, and everyone knows it.
Lisa,
You are the one not getting it. WORKING A CASE doesn’t automatically mean SAR. When a dead body is found in the hills then they OPEN A CASE TO WORK IT. If there was no SAR then there was no failure.
Are you the one skimming now? Acccording to reports seen on this forum Mr. Finley was missing somewhere betweeen SW Oregon and Montana. I just repeated that in my post #775. If that is true then I highly doubt a SAR was initiated in Josephine County.
I think your indictment of Anderson in the Finley case is based on you “wanting” him to be guilty of a screw up there – and not on any facts. That sounds mean, but YOU are the one who just isn’t getting it.
780 and etc. – My memory of the Finley case, faint as it is, is the same as in Post 768 – they had no idea he was in the vicinity of Bear Camp…the big deal when the story broke was it was a huge surprise to find him up there, i.e. who is this guy ???
I think it is a reach to cite this in the Kim case, over 11 years ago with very fuzzy facts. It seems more like “reaching” for evidence to support a predetermined position (that Anderson is incompetent). This is one of those all too classic situations where a lot of stuff, at several different levels, was mishandled, creating a perfect storm of disfunctionality.
Re: 779, 780
Now you are both missing the point and this is getting
ridiculous!
I am not currently saying that Anderson “failed” on
the Finley case.
Now we know that we don’t know enough information,
and I have acknowledged that numerous times!
I made that statement of opinion last night but based
upon what I knew it was a logical opinion.
It was an opinion!
For me – I’m not asserting that it is my opinion now
that I know more details!
I was explaining why I said that last night…
And I was asking if it’s never okay to say an SAR failed –
because your logic seemed to imply that it wasn’t as long
as they “tried”.
Now you are condemning my opinion last night for something
I didn’t know last night!
That’s why we are discussing these things – to express
opinions and learn more facts!
PLEASE READ WHAT I SAID BACK IN POST 772:
“If you read the quote from the article upon which I
was basing my opinion, it says that he “worked the case”. He was working in the Sheriff’s office at the time. The Sheriff’s office is in charge of SAR. So it seems logical that it was an SAR case.
Of course now, we can’t prove that or find enough information. But at the time, I stated that opinion, I
thought, again – logically – that it was a failed SAR
effort.”
IF YOU HAD READ THIS ACCURATELY, YOU WOULDN’T HAVE HAD
TO KEEP BEATING A DEAD HORSE.
Notice how I say “NOW, WE CAN’T PROVE THAT OR FIND
ENOUGH INFORMATION. BUT AT THE TIME, I STATED THAT
OPINION, I THOUGHT AGAIN – LOGICALLY – THAT IT WAS
A FAILED SAR EFFORT.”
JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED IT!
I would guess that 99% of a sheriff’s cases are NOT SAR, so I fail to see your logic. I’m actually having a hard time understanding a lot that you are trying to say. You are the one not reading with accuracy.
The two of us could go back and forth. I’m giving up. You don’t like if others question your comments. Or are puzzled by them. So I shall question them no more. I am saying goodbye so that I can go ride my quad. If I find a body in the hills I’ll call LE. They’ll open a CASE (remember my OPINION that 99% of CASES are NOT SAR). There won’t be a FAILED RESCUE because there was never a SAR mission initiated.
Good day.
(775) I think the whole point about Finely was…
When someone goes missing in the area they should check all of those roads including the spurs as soon as possible to remove them as possibilities. A couple of days with Sno Cats can get that job done.
It is too bad that the Finely tragedy and the family in RV (I know they were North of Bear Camp but the point was they didn’t check every road up there) that they didn’t adopt a coordination policy that stated that all the roads need to be cleared as soon as possible to remove them from the potential spots.
That is what I took from those previous examples coupled with the fact that many locals thought the roads should be checked ASAP.
Given the canopy cover on many of the roads day time fly-overs do seem very limited however night time FLIR runs would still be beneficial.
They need to adopt a policy that if the roads are a possibility they should be cleared ASAP.
Re: 783
And this is ridiculous and you are really reading into my
opinion to say such a thing:
“I think your indictment of Anderson in the Finley case is based on you “wanting” him to be guilty of a screw up there”
You think I “want” Anderson to be guilty of a screw-up?
I don’t “want” him to be!
I “thought” he was…
What the hell is going on here? You are really misinterpreting.
I’m sorry but I found that whole sequence extremely
frustrating, mishandled, and unnecessary.
You were making a lot of assumptions about my opinion
then and now.
Re: 788
This is ridiculous!
Does anyone understand that I stated that opinion
“last night!” When it didn’t seem so wrong to assume
that if Anderson had worked the case it was an SAR
case?
I’m being attacked for an old opinion which I changed as
soon as I learned more details – but I did try to explain
why it was my opinion last night.
I didn’t know last night that if a man was missing and
it was a case handled by the Sheriff’s office that there
was only a cerain % chance it was a search and rescue.
It seemed logical that it was a search and rescue…
I don’t mind people questioning my opinion, I was still
being attacked even though I explained that when I learned
more I changed it.
(782) (764) No…that is what you get when you get caught endangering all of the innocent lives around you when you drive at insane speeds on our highways. Our best roads are designed for a maximum of 85mph.
I am still looking for one of your disparaging phrases for what you did. You must have one. Do you suffer from road rage too? Maybe you suffer from IED have you ever looked into it?
Pac you seem to be somewhat of a hypocrite to me…you claim you want to help and save lives and you have the answer – yet your personal driving habits speak otherwise?
Do you still drive so recklessly? If you really want to save lives why don’t you just slow down?
789 – Glenn, good point. I agree absolutely that when someone is reported missing and if there is any likelihood at all that someone could be lost in that area (off of Bear Camp Road in particular), those roads should be checked ASAP if possible (I’d be curious, though, how many miles of offshoot roads there are up there and how long it would take to cover – anyone know?). I guess the hard part is in cases where there is a very large area such as DeWitt Finley from Oregon to Montana – in between there must be so many similar such tricky mountain road areas (equally scenic enough to understand a driver taking a detour for the view) given all the mountains in between the two. Now with all of the information we’ve been hearing about the area in the Bear Camp Road vicinity, I’d think it a good idea to include it, especially if the person was known even generally to have been headed to or from the coast.
(791) Lisa I understand it was an opinion…but given the information that keeps pouring in about Anderson…if he were responsible for a SAR operation for Finely…it probably would have end up the same…volunteers or civilians outside the SAR effort would find them…
Hey look at that…the Finely case, the family in RV and the Kim’s were ALL found by people that had nothing to do with Anderson. Interesting…his sandbox…his watch…all failures.
Should we discuss the burglary problem in Josephine County and look at Anderson’s track record there – that is an entire other story. I have now talked to three other locals (outside of this forum) and they have all said the same thing…the problems in the county around Anderson are numerous and they are hopeful a positive change will now happen.
The burglaries….almost 1000 reported and less than 100 reviewed and investigated!!! Are you kidding me? That ratio is a direct result of an Anderson decision…
I know, rem just wanted to try to prove me wrong, even
though I had already changed my opinion. Got it.
(793) I will concide that nothing could have solved the situation with Finely…because he did absolutely nothing, etc…
However…never again should anyone ever be lost and die up on those roads – PERIOD. How many more times does something have to happen under similar circumstances before people learn?
It would be like the people in Florida not adapting and changing their construction techniques, etc…to deal with hurricanes.
Doesn’t anyone else here see the pattern in Josephine County? – spanning years with the same characters involved.
Lisa I might have to post another (482)… 🙂 but for you this time. LOL
(797) ah that would be post (482) in the first 1000+ plus posts…sorry.
Thanks glenn –
Maggie and Paul – no anger here – just frustration,
and not so much with you, as with those blog “events.”
I just felt like I wasn’t being heard or understood
properly.
Like people were still responding to what I said last
night rather than what I was saying today…
And I can understand if the logic question about failed
rescue tripped people up – but for me at that point it
was a separate technical issue.
I think that confused people.
lisa dont worry about it, I think he just wanted to make his point, that Anderson might not have much to do with that earlier case, I dont think it was directed so much at you. I think he just wanted to add his 2 cents (I’ll speak for him while he’s out on his quad).
As for Finley, I don’t know what happened there. I have heard people state “there was open road a few feet from his car” and that he could have walked out if he had tried.
I have no clue what happened in that case with SAR or if it was reported. Good thing to research.
But, that is just one of those things that has always bothered me, when single people go missing, sometimes we never even hear about it. It makes me very sad to think that if I ever disappeared one day, it might make the news once, and that could be it. Anyone that says Finley was crazy, or could have walked out….come on. Your usually the same people that say James should have stayed put. Maybe when Finley was found there was open road behind him, but how was he to know if he had been there all winter and there WASNT open road (he was found in March, probably the conditions changed during the time he was there)
I dont know. The whole idea is upsetting. Thats aside from anything to do with Josephine County! I have heard that Finley’s old girlfriend has voiced concern over signage in that area. I bet she could tell you if he had been reported missing and if Joesphine County was supposed to be an agency that was looking for him.
glenn (792) I’d say Jeremy Clarkson has your number:
Show me someone who drives slowly and I’ll show you a catastrophic bore. Someone whose life is empty, shallow and pointless. But there’s more to it than that.
They are also deeply unpleasant. Like bell ringers, they wish to impose their beliefs and their way of life on everyone else. They are people with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in amoral behaviour without empathy or remorse. And that’s the dictionary-definition of a psychopath.
This, then, is a useful tip for the police. The next time someone goes on a random shooting spree, hosing down innocent men, women and children and then making good his escape, please do not look for someone driving away at high speed in a flash car. Look instead for someone in a chocolate-brown Nissan Micra doing 28mph.
You don’t believe me? Well, think about it: how many racing drivers have been done for murder? None.
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-2469741,00.html
This is a side story that might be of interest regarding another person recently snowbound in the Pacific NW…
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_120706WABTIMESsnowsurvivorEL.5f078ed.html
I’m not sure I care that about Finley as I don’t believe Josephine County was involved except in the most remote way, as to the other folks caught on the BLM road in the camper last year, just because civilians found them doesn’t mean the local effort “failed”, maybe they just got there first or got lucky. I didn’t see any details in the PDX press at that time suggesting at all there was a problem with that SAR.
There is more than enough significant evidence in the Kim case to support screw ups that to me the other is just a side-show….and the tone of the retorts back and forth are escalating and getting personal. Maybe it’s time to just step back and let things cool down a bit.
Thanks Gayle, that was posted here in the early days. That was another case that made me shudder, just thinking about going missing and thinking that no one would really be looking for me unless friends or family made a big deal themselves!
800 – mapper/Lisa, for me also, my agreement with rem’s points wasn’t directed at Lisa or anyone else – just felt it was important to mention.
I’ve thought the same as you, mapper, about the Kim/Finley, stay with the car/go in search of help issue. These cases both highlight that it’s a risk either way and that neither always staying or always going will be the correct thing to do. Even some survival experts have said that while staying put is usually a better option, even that often depends on the situation (such as whether anyone knows that you are missing or where you intended to travel and how likely it seems that help will be on the way). I can understand both lines of reasoning.
(801) Funny how you mention a source from the U.K….completely different standard.
You never answer the questions Pac…you just spew.
I never said driving too slow wasn’t dangerous…it absolutely is. But I would rather have an accident with someone driving too slowly as opposed to someone driving too fast…thats physics 101.
Actually race car drivers have a great respect for speed limits – they go fast where they are supposed to. Under controlled conditions, in a professional environment with professional equipment and oh yeah…only with other professional drivers – you don’t have families driving around the race track.
803/804 – That got a little press out here after the fact – amazing story. I’ll have to be really nice to my friends and family and give them detailed anticipated routes so that they can create a ruckus when needed because it makes me shudder, too, mapper. When I look back at some of the road trips and exploring I’ve done, I feel really lucky. And ready to take fewer risks in the future. Yikes.
(803) They were found WEEKS after they went missing…
(805) The statistics vary on whether to stay put or move. Really depends on the situation and what equipment you have at the location. There comes a point when you have to do something and there lies the rub…wait too long and you don’t have the physical, emotional and mental endurance to complete the task…leave to early and your exposed to wilderness and they may find you in a day or two.
Judgment call given the situation…
(802 & 804) I thought it interesting that Daryl Jane went to OR after his own ordeal to try to help find the Kim family.
Where DeWitt Finley’s story plays into the Kim tragedy in my mind is (as I recall reading) where the independent helicopter pilot remembered it and that triggered him to search that area for the Kims and found their car and three of the family members.
deleted at Lisa’s request
Maggie,
Me too!!! I have done so much travelling and exploring (and I am proud of it Pac) and I made it out alive and I am sure many times I didn’t have the appropriate tools, and definitley didn’t have the local knowledge. I’ve been smart but have also been lucky.
For if I was too go missing, I dont know that it would be terribly noticable, until I didn’t show up to work. If I were on vacation anyway, that could be a big window of time! (much like the Kim’s actually) and then….well the people that care about me definitley do not have the wealth the kim’s have…unless my employer were to take it upon themselves to find me. That would be my greatest hope, too bad I wont work for these wonderful people forever!
Ps. I am taking Amtrak tomorrow, I was going to drive….
But, I hope you and me both, are not so afraid that we quit taking chances and exploring as its really one of the best things in life. I do believe this was a failure of the many different agencies (both prevention and reaction) that have responsibilities in that area. I also believe, that area is unique, and an accident waiting to happen…and the publicity just waiting to happen…there are too many agencies there that are not communicating apporpriately….Blm, USFS, JC, DOT and State of Oregon.
And Pac, even they admit this and are working on it, why you cant accept that, this is a multi-faceted problem, way beyond personal responsibility is beyond my understanding…yet, I do have a hard time following your logic anyway (again, see post 15).
809 – Glenn, so true. Such a tough call that I hope I never have to make. If anyone hasn’t seen this article, it’s worth a read and mentions how difficult that decision must have been for James Kim.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/08/MNG75MRTTA1.DTL
810 – Gayle, great point. And yes, I read the same in an article that I’d copied but can no longer find on abclocal.go.com that said:
“Ever since a Montana camper salesman got stuck in the snow driving from Gold Beach to Grants Pass over Bear Camp Road in 1994 and was found starved to death in the spring, Rachor has flown over the road whenever he visited his vacation home in the tiny community of Agness, where the Illinois River joins the Rogue.”
Re: 811
For the record, when I said: “I knew they were skimming because they missed a lot of what I was really trying to say – and just thought I was looking to attack him.”
In “they” I wasn’t talking about Paul and Maggie.
And I don’t want any personal hard feelings with
anyone.
I haven’t “attacked” anyone’s opinion because they didn’t
know everything, and I just felt like there was something
very arrogant and assumptive in the approach/reproach.
Again, not from Maggie and Paul. You seem more respectful.
Then when I tried to explain myself, I still felt like I
was being attacked.
I don’t want any personal hard feelings, and I am sorry
for taking up so much space about this – but it really
bothered me.
Goodnight everyone – Please enjoy yourselves and your
discussion…
Re: 811
Please know that when I said these things I did not
mean them literally. I said them because it felt like
this is what was being said/done to me.
“I think that everyone who doesn’t already know
everything and says anything is wrong!
So don’t say anything!
Opinions are “great” but don’t say them if you don’t
already know everything!
And don’t change it when you learn more and think
I’ll listen to you!”
Okay – I just wanted to be clear about that – done.
Really, done… I was just worried I might be
misunderstood again.
Later Joe, we can delete these if you want. But I
would prefer that people get a chance to see them.
***Peace on Earth! *Goodwill to Men* Happy Holidays***
One things for sure, nothing here is of interest at this time. The project many of you are working on outside of this board sounds great. I’ll check back some other time to see how that’s going. Too much bickering and trivial gossip for me to weed thru… Lisa, you’re dominating the board. Sorry.
Pac-
though not exactly through a public service announcement (which I find a bit of a wierd way to get a point across)I believe the kims story has and will save lives.
Today I made it to my holiday destination. I packed life saving supplies (glenn- I skipped the armor- couldnt find it), gave my destination and travel route to family members, gave cell and credit card numbers to them, called them at each of the three state lines I crossed (to say I was in the next state.. to avoid state jurisdiction issues) and when I arrive safely here.
My husband and I had a snow plan, a swamp plan, a wreck plan, a alien plan, an alligator attack plan (makes sense in one state more than others..) and several others. (some a bit extreme : )
My point is (and I am serious for the most part) that the story of the kims DID get out. It is changing the way people do things.
I am sure I am not the only one who took extra precautions.
So I believe the kims have and will save lives.
817 – Tara, the alien plan intrigues me most 🙂 Seriously, I do agree that at least in the short term, many will think about the Kim’s and probably take some extra precautions, and that is definitely a very good thing. I do wonder, though, 6 months from now, 2 years from now, and beyond if it will have fallen off the radar enough that many of us just go back to taking some of the same chances we’ve taken in the past. I hope I’m wrong, but I think it’s just human nature, until the next tragedy hits. Keeping the message flowing as much as people will heed it is good, and just in case they don’t, I’m glad to see some review of how to handle things better the next time someone winds up lost in Oregon and also hoping better signs, etc. will prevent more folks from winding up lost in the area where the Kim’s did. Glad you made it safely through three state lines!
Just an aside related to your preparedness – I’d still not completely unpacked my trunk from summer camping when I was starting to think that I really needed to do so before all my Christmas shopping, and then this story hit the news, and I decided that having all that “junk” in my trunk really wasn’t such a bad idea after all. So it’s still there even though all I do is commute on regular highways back and forth to work, and I still can’t bring myself to remove it from my trunk – just in case.
Lisa, concerned & caring… smart, persistent and yes, thankfully ‘not numb’.. It’s sad that your few detractors here are blind to a precious spirit.
Excellent input, keep it coming!!
I am saddened by all of the faith that you have all put into the media who claims that they have all of the facts. I sure hope that this investigation that I have begged for, shows what we all truly lived through..while we searched with everything that we had for six full days for the Kim family..
I personally hope that when finished and released, the real facts..those from the people who lived this search, and boxes of documentation, will answer all of the questions that you all have. It won’t answer what many of us are asking…the questions that only Kati can answer, but it will show you what we, as real people did to try to save them.
JoCoSAR – I think I speak for most of us when I say that if there is a different side that we are not hearing that would explain things differently than reported in the media so far, we would love to hear it. And if you are one of those that was out there doing the actual searching, you have nothing but my most sincere admiration and respect and belief that you were, indeed, searching tirelessly with everything you had.
Thank you, JoCo, for being in SAR and all you and others like you do. Thank you so much and Merry Christmas to you.
813 / Maggie: I thought I had read all the San Fran Chron articles, but clearly missed that one. The world needs more people like the author of that article. Pcnwr can call it hero worship if he wants, but there is no way you can overlook the gut wrenching humanity of someone fighting to keep their family alive and who gave their life in an effort to save them. It grabs so many of us because we all ask, if we were he, what would we do ? The earlier comments by those who had survival training and have actually experienced 7+ days without food makes the story that much more poignant.
JoCoSar
So interesting to hear from you. I knew some people out there might be reading that have personal experience with this case (though I was figuring more on the Kim’s side). I hope you feel okay, that most of us here want to understand and hear your side of the story. I hope its not too offensive to have read this far, and that you will feel free to speak up on JoCo’s behalf if you want to.
824 – Paul, of all of the seemingly millions of articles that I have read and re-read, that one really is the one that really strikes me the most and calls me back to read it again and again. So beautifully written and just so incredibly human. I’m glad that you found it as poignant as I did.
Since it really is so worth reading, I’ll even post the link here again:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/08/MNG75MRTTA1.DTL
820 / 821: JoCoSar – when nobody until now has seen fit to speak up, it is difficult to go on much beyond what the media has printed. The J. Co. Sheriff alleged the Oregonian article was lies, but never gave specifics and never provided anything to back up that, so I think it is unfair to be too critical of the conclusions that have be drawn here.
I have the utmost respect for the efforts of all the searchers in the field. There has been little to no criticism there. If our judgements of command and control personnel have been premature and overly harsh, that should, as you say, become clear in the course of the governor’s investigation. I hope that the results of the investigation are released to the public, we all want a fair and balanced account of what happened.
Typos in 827, sorry, it’s late….820/821 – If you do have specifics on any of the issues we would love to hear them. All along I have argued that in fairness we should hear from those in the trenches doing the heavy lifting. Now that you’ve weighed in with comments that pique all our curiosities, I hope you won’t be too circumspect about saying more.
PS..
It wasn’t a call from Anderson’s SAR Coordinator, Sara R. that he didn’t answer. All calls made from Sara to Brian were answered. That was only one of the clear “facts” that the Oregonian got totally wrong! Until Monday early afternoon, not one person had a real idea which of the four counties (Josephine, Douglas, Coos or Curry)the family was actually in, including Edge Wireless. The cell phone map narrowed the “ping” to a 26 mile pie wedge that covered all four counties, with the majority of possibilities being in Douglas County (near where the Stivers were found). Once the Kim family car was located on Monday, and the shoe prints from James were found heading into the canyon, it was then, and only then, that Josephine County was indeed the County responsible for the Search mission. With only approximately 15 hours of daylight from that moment until when James Kim was found, that was one hell of a search with all searchers pushed to their extreme limits!
This is not a case of incompetence, not by the Search Management. There is not a thing that the SAR Coordinator didn’t do that she had been trained to do. With two states and many more organizations involved, all sharing information regarding this case, the management TEAM did all that they could, as quickly as they could with the clues that were given to them.
Search and Rescue is a guessing game. You are only able to narrow your guess depending on the accuracy of the clues available to you. This search had nothing to do with lack of funds, not in my opinion. On Friday and Saturday (Dec. 1 and 2), hundreds of miles of spur roads off of Bear Camp road were checked, all by volunteers. Hindsight is so clear…why not that road? Well, we hadn’t made it to that one yet. We were on that road on Sunday evening and on Monday morning. This was a slow and methodical search for clues. Checking over the sides of roads and for disturbances in the snow. Sound sweeps were also conducted. It was not our goal to sprint to the end of a road just for the sake of calling it cleared. One possiblility was that the Kim’s had gone off of the roadway somewhere. We didn’t want someone to find a car full of bodies this spring on a road that we had claimed was “clear.”
I am sure that unless you were there, you may never understand the process. It is much easier to call the leader “incompetent.” That’s ok. Good luck finding a replacement with the previous experience, education and knowledge, who will give their personal life, heart and soul to a job that pays so little!!! You can’t work for the Josephine County for the pay or the benefits, one must have a passion for the job. And one must have the thick skin to be left to hang in the wind all alone to deal with all of the criticism afterwards, whether deserving or not!
I am not here to say that there were no mistakes made on this search. I have yet to see a perfectly run mission. What I am here to say, is that I truly believe that the things that need to be improved are nothing that would have saved James Kim. I am confident of that.
Well, unfortunately, as much as I would love to sit here all night and go through every single detail that I am able to clear up…I cannot. Due to the investigation that was initiated yesterday (by requests of Josephine County SAR itself). I want a chance to tell our side of the story instead of being accused of not doing what we were trained to do, instead of being accused of misconduct…I would love to, I just simply cannot. I shouldn’t have come here and said anything at all…but after reading nothing but blogs all day long, I couldn’t stand it anymore. There are so many untruths and speculations circulating. Hopefully, after the 5th, when the report is sent to the Governor’s office, more will be known….I hope!
JoCoSAR – Thank you very much first for all of you hard work – you are right that I doubt most of us can even begin to imagine what it’s like to actually be involved in this kind of a search. Thank you also for laying this out as you have. It gives much to consider and is definitely a side we have not been hearing. Things like clearing roads by doing more than just driving on them – that’s something that makes perfect sense when you mention it but is something hadn’t really occurred to me in terms of how much time it must have taken to confidently declare a road cleared – I wondered earlier today on here just how many miles of spur roads there are, and it sounds like there are plenty. Thank you for clarifying that all four counties were still possibilities until after that Monday when the car was found and that Josephine County was not in charge until that point. There’s much in what you wrote to think about, and I truly do hope that the investigation brings the truth to light.
Again, thank you. Sincerely.
Let me try that first sentence again: Thank you very much first of all for all of your hard work.
I just saw an interesting article on different types of searches done in these past three high profile cases (each of which has had a sad ending) and also how New Mexico has centralized operations at the state level (I think I’d heard that previously in some article). I will warn you that one of the comments from Josephine County Sheriff Dave Daniel might get some hackles up (got mine) because it reminded me quite a bit of our pal Pac in its delivery, but other than that, I did think it was pretty interesting and had some useful things to say. Anyway…
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8M6OLK00.html
JoCoSAR – thanks for checking in. There’s a lot of speculation here at the blog and it’s good to hear from somebody who was actually there.
How interesting, who is that masked man named JoCoSAR? He or she has not substantiated anything. I think he was playing for our sympathies. Because of the lack of knowing the “source”, these postings are highly suspect.
(820) Thanks for posting. I am pleased to see JoCoSAR responding. Two things (of the many) I think we would like to see…
(1) questions answered – and with the investigation going on we should get some – at this point I think we have raised a lot of questions that need review and answers and we are from the outside looking in with limited information.
(2) An understanding of how the coordination process is going to improved and how information and support from volunteers and locals is going to be handled in the future.
Now I could make a dis-tasteful joke about how long it took you guys to find us!
I also would very much like to hear your ideas and input on how we can help. Hopefully one of the reasons you posted here is because you think several of us truly want to help. If you caught wind of our idea of harnessing the power of the internet to collect, analyze and manage the data during a search effort – we really would like your input.
As for the answers if you care to clear up some of the questions I think that would be great…but we can always wait until the results of the internal investigation. I would think we all want as much input from you on how we can help from the outside.
Merry Christmas or Happy Chanakhuh everyone!
835 /D.H. – oh please! – I don’t think anonymity makes the posts “highly suspect”, we’re all anonymous here. If what he/she alleges doesn’t hold up, then it will come out in the investigation. In the interim, the input is thought provoking , interesting and ever so welcome. Just the element of “how” roads are cleared alone is very crucial, one I had utterly neglected to think about, and in hindsight totally logical.
I did think about this in terms of them following James down the canyon when others were criticising how slow it was. You can’t move at the same speed as the subject being sought because, all along the way, you have to be sure you’re still on his trail. He could have left the drainage at some point. Unlikely, but hypothermic & starving individuals do strange things.
We all still have questions, but someone on the other side has stood up and stated for the record that there are plausible, reasonable answers. It is too early to know if that is true, but if – in the end – it turns out that almost everything that could have been done was done, I would feel better about that than I feel about the alternative.
Another interesting story:
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8M6OLK00.html
I think New Mexico and Alaska have the right idea, or at least an idea that warrants close scutiny for Oregon. Some of the examples of how it works in New Mexico, cited in the above link and other articles on OregonLive, sound extremely compelling.
Re:
I think that brings up the important issue of how to balance
the various needs for slow careful searching, with the immediacy and urgency involved to save lives in time.
I wasn’t going to appear today, but this is a huge concern of mine. It is not surprising that they never caught up to James earlier, or even got near him from behind – when they were searching so slowly and carefully.
Maybe there should be different teams for different purposes: a “slow” team to be more thorough and methodical – and a “fast” team to make faster progress directionally.
p.s. Yesterday I was tired and did not make my points as
efficiently as would have been most helpful. However, I do plan to keep a lower more cautious profile from now on.
JoCoSAR, it will be interesting to see what the investigation turns up. I think there will be anomalies, because there always are. No such thing as every loose end tied. But in the final analysis, I suspect that the SAR effort will wind up being judged favorably.
The majority of commenters here simply don’t want to face the reality that the Kims’ negligence was the major issue. It’s too “cruel” from them to say that, and it would interfere with the book deal and the movie rights.
(841) Thanks for the link Paul…here are two very telling paragraphs:
Josephine County Sheriff Dave Daniel defended the training, experience and performance of his search and rescue team, adding that ultimate responsibility must fall on the Kims, who passed four signs warning snow could block the road ahead.
“My heart goes out to the Kim family and the families of the men up on Mount Hood,” Daniel said. “But the truth of the matter is in the past eight years I’ve been sheriff, we’ve done 34 search and rescue operations in wintertime up there on Bear Camp Road. In the majority of these cases, they are people that lack common sense. They are driving into snow in passenger vehicles on what is at best a two-lane road and sometimes a one-lane road.”
=-==-
I have been reviewing different states SAR policies, etc. Most of them never place blame on the people that get lost. Another interesting point…in the past 8 years they have had 34 winter time rescues on Bear Camp Road…ah hello is anyone getting this? Obviously the signs aren’t working, etc. With that much experience on Bear Camp Rd in the winter there is no excuse for anyone dying up there – period!
As for Daniels I think he just opened up season on him and his department and I think it speaks to one of the main problems Josephine County has in their Sheriff’s office – they don’t take criticism well at all. That is not a good sign of a leader…it also potentially explains why outside advice and information was not heeded by Sheriff department personnel.
It is time Oregon removed the responsibility of SAR efforts from the Sheriff’s office. New Mexico is right.
Re: 842 addition
The names for the teams could be whatever was thought
most appropriate and effective.
One example could be: the “search” team and the “speed”
team.
(843) Pac the Kim’s negligence didn’t hinder or mess up the SAR operation. The Kim’s negligence got them into the situation they were in. It was SAR’s responsibility to get them out of that. The Josephine County Sheriff’s department was responsible for coordinating SAR and making that happened. They failed.
There is a good reason professional and successful SAR operations never find blame with the victims…pyschologically it will impact the ability of SAR to do their job.
Think about it…if you are part of SAR and you keep telling yourself – gee only if they didn’t do this or they shouldn’t have been there in the first place…it takes away from the effort – it is human nature.
Your mentality if applied to the trauma centers in this country would see 100% increase in the deaths of people being treated…can you imagine a doctor saying? Well it really doesn’t matter if I treat this patient well…it was his fault for getting shot in the first place?
That Pac is what you are advocating and where your argument just doesn’t work.
With that said…it is the Sheriff’s department playing the blame on the Kim’s…I would hope the actual SAR personnel would feel differently – maybe JoCoSAR can comment about that.
Re: 844
Excellent points all glenn!
(830)
JoCoSAR – I have two questions if you could answer would be helpful…
1) Do you think Sara R will be replaced in her position as the SAR coordinator as a result of the investigation?
2) Knowing what you know now…should Sara R. keep her job as SAR coordinator and explain your answer either way?
Thanks for taking the time to read. Believe it or not we are on the side of SAR…we really want it to be more successful and help remove the barriers and frustrations that make it harder than it should be for you guys.
(712) Thanks Paul. I think I might have dropped the ball on Oregon State Police. I was positive I wrote them as well about when they take over, investigate performance, etc. But I can’t find a copy of that email. I’ll have to start over.
At least Portland police have a department to oversee and investigate public questions, complaints. But Josephine county, instead of saying “we’ll look into it”, they say “nothing was true” with no further explanation. They clearly have not looked into a single thing, but what worries me is they may have no intention of looking into anything.
I’d like to see Weinstein’s name cleared, I think it will turn out there are good answers to the questions about him. We’ll see.
Re: 841 aricle
That is by far the best article we have seen about SAR
issues generally.
Here is a quote:
“the priority each sheriff gives search and rescue funding, training, equipment and personnel ultimately determines how good they are.”
Re: 850
That’s article at (841)!
(719) That is great news! It’s interesting it took bad press to get to the point of questioning maps, gates, road signs, and coordination and communication.
I’m very happy the press finally is coming through, I was beginning to lose faith that there were any real reporters left. BLM, Governor Kulongoski, and Portland police all seem to be serious about wanting to make Oregon a better place to live and visit.
(752) Something I have wondered about that guy back in 1994. Was he a little “off” to start with? Or did he get stuck in the dead of winter, and short explorations from the vehicle were difficult or impossible? And by the time the snow was melting and he could have walked to the nearest road, by then he had then gone a little kooky? And whether he was off to start with or the experience set him into a learned helplessness situation, even if it were all and totally his own fault, didn’t he still deserve a good search? We still don’t know if Anderson actually sent a snowmobile down each road, sent a SnoCat down each road, sent a heat seeking helicopter to fly over each road? What review did Josephine county do of that case? That should have been done and it should be public record. And they should have learned from it what they did right, what they did wrong. And hopefully at least make new mistakes the next time, not the same old ones.
Another interesting article that has Kim elements in it, as well as the recent Mt. Hood search. Interesting statistics on how many get lost, how many get found, how many survive, what is all costs and who pays for it (or not):
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166853309200430.xml&coll=7
(758)Joe you might want to remove his last paragraph, he is doing the “you people” thing again.
Pac, the first three points you did not say anything that all of us have not understood from the beginning. As we have discussed frequently, we all can learn on a personal level from some one else’s predictament. That part you seem unable or unwilling to understand is that even after this, now that everyone will be more careful and prepared in Oregon, accident’s will still happen. And statiscally, mainly to Oregon residents. So the search coordination and communication needs reviewed. And signs and maps need reviewed. I think you are able to understand that, for some reason you just don’t want to. Which is fine. I just thought I was missing some big obvious solution, since you keep saying that we are missing it. But you are missing that we understood that part a long time ago.
(762) yes, mapper, I had it right in the first place, but then I kept seeing references to the “solution” and I thought I had totally missed something. I see now that I did not.
(770) Isn’t Sherriff Daniels, the one who appointed Anderson, the same one involved with the stomping the chicken to death incident? Did Daniels also appoint Rubrecht?
RE #840:”We all still have questions, but someone on the other side has stood up and stated for the record that there are plausible, reasonable answers. It is too early to know if that is true, but if – in the end – it turns out that almost everything that could have been done was done, I would feel better about that than I feel about the alternative.
Comment by Paul | December 24, 2006″
Uh huh… but what if the “someone”(JoCoSAR) that stood up is a high level manager like Anderson? Anderson seems like a guy who thinks he “knows” the public, and has probably tried to play on their sympathies and emotions before. As far as their precious so-called thorough but slow search techniques, that seems like an excuse for taking so dam long to do anything on the Kim search. I do not think Josephine Co. SAR management will be cleared, I think some horrendous errors or negligence are going to come out. Kind of like I think horrendous errors and negligence are going to come out “eventually” about the Kims. The searchers in the field of course should in NO WAY be smeared with any blame whatsoever. Any experienced field searchers would have managed the search better than Rubrecht or Anderson. With the Sheriff inactive or on sick leave or whatever his excuse is, it looks like the entire responsibility for the Sheriff’s dept. was squarely on Anderson’s shoulders. IMO, the whole picture of his part in Kim search is pretty pathetic and full of excuses.
HOWEVER… I bear no grudges here, and I sincerely wish you all a MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! I grew up here, and I dearly love the Rogue Valley and all of Oregon. During this part of my life, I am enjoying the Oregon Coast and it’s peace and quiet. But I’ve got my eye on returing to the Rogue Valley and all it’s splendor to be closer to my family. – D.H., retired usaf
(858) D.H. I think you are right about Anderson and Rubrecht…the Daniel’s end of things is somewhat new to me…I am just catching up on all the stuff he is involved in…aye yi yi. Josephine County needs to clean up some stuff.
In any event if they messed up then it should be corrected.
Rubrecht should have already been fired…she is not qualified for the job…especially after 5 years. Taxpayers deserve better.
858 / D.H. – You may well turn out to be right, and this is all a smokescreen. I’m inclined to agree with you and think that, in the end, there may be plenty of blame to go around for everyone. I do think the road/search comments from JoCoSar have merit. The roads were snowy and icy. I can’t count the number of times someone in Oregon has gone missing and they’ve ultimately found the car not ON the road, but off it on a hillside, in a river, etc. It happens all the time.
The positive is this incident WILL be scrutinized intensely by the Governors task force. The likelihood is high that many positive changes to signage, maps, and SAR methodologies & communications will result.
(846) Excellent points glenn. It would be like the hospital refusing to admit someone for a heart attack because it was their own fault for eating wrong and never exercising. Which would probably be true. Actually, I doubt very many of us will die in our sleep from natural causes at age 100. For all the rest of us, we will probably directly or indirectly contribute to our own death. And of course we are responsible for our own health, I think people get that. But that doesn’t mean that the medical field can just have free reign with no accountability. They are making their living primarily from our mistakes.
I know a lot of people in law enforcement. They will be the first to tell you they are making a living because of other people doing stupid things. And then almost all law enforcement does their personal best to help, even when it includes risking their own lives and limbs.
So not investigating Josephine county actions would not make any sense at all. I was glad to see JoCarSAR here, but still we have seen no rebuttal of Peter’s report, asides to say it was wrong.
I agree Glenn. I think the New Mexico state-run SAR system is the way to go.
833, 841+ – Great article.
(862) Alaska’s is also really well run as as far as I can tell.
I am back and I have read through all of the comments since last night…still wish that I could answser them all.
(858) I’m afraid you might be correct D.H., especially since their comments are almost identical to the official comments. “You don’t understand, we did everything right, the newspaper in not right”, but not a single rebuttal to a single alleged mis-step.
Without going through each and every question that was asked, I would like to tell another quick story..
Exactly one week after the Kim Search, Jo Co SAR was called for another two missing subjects who were last known to be driving from Agness to Grants Pass via Bear Camp. These subjs had tried to come over on the same day that James was found. They couldnt make it further than the lookout on FS23, so they turned around. They went back to Agness, got more gas, food and booze and were to try again the next day. On Saturday, nobody had heard from them or seen them yet. Guess who got the call?? Of course Jo Co SAR did. Once again, without even the time to heal from the first search, and barely enough time for the volunteers to do maint on the snowcat, they were back. Without hesitation whatsoever. They spent all day Sunday looking for these two individuals. I spent quite a bit of time wondering to myself that day…where are the cameras? where is dad to make satellite changes? Oh wait, I forgot, this search is just like all of the others up here..this search is all on us.
At 6pm that evening we found out that the men weren’t up on the mountain..the men decided to go to Portland and party instead. We were looking for nothing…can’t say we haven’t done that before!
We don’t ever consider who it is we are looking for..we look for them as hard as we can, regardless…we will continue to do that.
As you should see today or tomorrow, the Jo CO SAR members have signed a resolution in support of their leader, Sara R.
If any of you are involved in politics at all, you should understand that in politics, there is a certain chain of command. Regardless of Sara’s training or expertise, there was always a boss. It is true however, that in the end, all of those boss’s (along with everyone else) packed up their stuff and left her alone to take the fall for the entire rap. Is that fair? Do I personally think that she should be fired? Absolutely not! Is that so that Jo Co can look for another coordinator who would be willing to walk into this political mess and try to gain the respect of all of the volunteers? Someone who may have years of field experience? Has anyone checked into how much this position pays? What the benefits are? How about what type of experience you are looking for? Is there a SAR college? How about an accredidated school? Anyone find any of that out there? Has anyone checked into any of the other good that Sara R. has done up until now? Probably not, that will all be forgotten now…especially since this is a new last name for her and nobody will search her as Nicholson…
Glenn, in reading your last comment…I have to point out to you that you say that taxpayers deserve better than Rubrecht..I want to show the breakdown in how that position is paid…
1: the position in 1/2 time Emergency Management
2: the position is 92% pd for with O&C funds (gone after this year).
3. the position is 4% pd for with State EMPG (Emergency Management Performance Grant) funds
4. the position is 4% pd for with general funds.
When Title 3 (O&C) funds are gone in June, I am not sure that they will be able to fund the position at all…but maybe in your opinion, that’s better?
JoCoSar,
Sunday December 10, there was an article detailing some fumbles and missteps that hindered the search. Below are my questions I asked Peter Sleeth of the Oregonian. His initial response to me was that he had those questions and many more, but no one would talk to him. Then on Sunday December 17 his article came out with more issues. Since then we have learned of Ruprecht’s alleged lack of experience, her muliple alleged communication and coordination errors, Anderson’s alleged “F…. public” comments and Anderson’s alleged association with Sheriff Daniels and Daniel’s alleged disgusting story about what he did to that chicken. And we have all kinds of speculation about past searches. And it sounds like an enormous number of people get lost there, so it seems the BLM is correct to be reviewing maps and signage, sounds long overdue. And the only comment we get from Josephine county is that the newspaper article is wrong. Which we could believe, but no one has actually pointed out which part they object to.
So anyway, here’s what I wrote Peter, and then he answered most of these questions on Sunday December 17, all making the leadership of Josephine county look incompetent at best.
“3. Friday: Sara Rubrecht’s deputies from Josephine county, drive past the fork where the logging road takes off to the right. The logging road that is supposed to be gated and locked and is not. The logging road that the reason it is gated and locked is because its COMMON for travelers to take that wrong turn. So did those deputies not check the gate? Did they see it was vandalized and open and not report it? Did they report it and no action was taken?
4. Friday: Sara Rubrecht is told, in person, by the owner of the Black Bar Lodge that he had seen tire tracks on that logging road and hadn’t been able to follow them in his snowmobile once he hit bare ground. She took no action?
5. Friday: John Rachor, the private pilot that finally located Kati and the girls, also thought they’d turn off on that logging road, a very common mistake, but didn’t go looking that day because authorities said they’d cleared that road.
6. Sunday: John Rachor decides to go look anyway, sees the tire marks in the snow, they had not cleared that road, but he is running low on fuel and has to go back. Did he tell any authority? Did they ignore him as well?
7. Sunday: Sheriff’s Lt. Pat Rowland said his crews asked about the back logging road, but were told — incorrectly — that the owner of the Black Bar Lodge had “cleared” it himself. Who told him that? Shouldn’t there be some way to verify what’s been cleared and what hasn’t?
I realize that many of the above “facts” can be wrong, they came from the media. But Weinstein and Rubrecht are not hard working volunteers, they are paid public professions. I think its reasonable to expect answers.”
JoCoSar: specifics:
1. Why, after the initial search team reported back that they could not “clear” the BLM road the Kims were ultimately found on, did SAR not request the National Guard helicopter with heat-seaking capabilities into the air either that night or the next day ? It was reportedly fueled, ready and on standby. Their report noted “Lots of tire and foot tracks.” – a direct quote taken off the form reprinted in the Oregonian.
2. Why were the comments of the owner of the Black Bar Lodge, MADE FRIDAY Dec 1, that he had seen tire tracks going in, but none coming out, disregarded? He twice attempted to convey the urgency/import of that find and was seemingly brushed off. His comments, at some point, turned into a misunderstanding that HE had cleared the road, which is a far cry from what he alleges he said.
Was typing 872 when 871 went up – between the 2 there are plenty of pertinent questions for JoCoSar to address. We’re all ears!…..
Another thing to point out, Rubrecht was not around for the DeWitt Finley case..not involved in that at all. Also, she was not at all involved in the chicken fiasco.
The hiring process was a long and intensive one. Sara was the clerk for the past Emergency Manager. When he left, there was only one other applicant. This other applicant was a good ole boy. A marine deputy from Curry Co. Rubrecht was a young female trying to prove herself in a mans world. It has been nothing but proving herself for the past five years!! Not just in her job, but also in an atmosphere that is plagued by good ole boy politics!
See, as much as I would love to address the certain questions and allegations from Peter, I am hoping that the investigation (again, requested by Jo Co SAR) will address these particulars for you..
Please remember that there were tire tracks everywhere! There were Christmas tree cutters everywhere! Everyone had a hunch. John James was not the only one. That road, as well as hundreds of other miles of roads were checked on Sat, Sun and Mon.
After talking to Georges Kleinbaum, the State SAR Coordinator (who would be the one that Sara would have had to request the heat seeking helicopter from), he stated that he wouldn’t have even called the Natl Guard with a request that night. The limited information on Sat night would not have been a narrow enough search area for this type of device. He also stated that the Natl Guard FLIR has not had success in finding lost subjs in Oregon. (Something that I would like more information on myself).
(869) I have a lot of questions about Anderson’s training skills, leadership skills, management skills and even his integrity. And Daniels sounds even worse.
(870) If you take a job you should be willing and able to do the job, regardless of if it pays and how much or little it pays. If you get in trouble, get in over your head, you should ask for help, demand help. Especially if your job is a matter of life and death to others, both the lost and the rescuers.
I don’t really understand what a futile search a week later has to do with the alleged mistakes in the Kim search. And if someone has a job that requires detailed education and there is no accredited college for that, why didn’t their management train them?
And wouldn’t Josephine County want to know exactly what they did right and wrong? If it’s funding issues, they could address those. If it’s training issues they could address those. If travelers are just too stupid, figure out how to make the signs and maps more idiot proof. I just don’t understand what would be wrong with reviewing procedures and seeing how to fix some.
Only fair to point out that the National Guard helicopter was requested on Friday, and did fly the area in Curry and Josephine Counties that day. Just in case that was forgotten.
JoCoSAR – thanks again for your insight. I hope people who have been very critical of the effort take the time to read the report – I’ll try to post and/or link it up here.
For me the key questions about the search relate to why the search did not focus on Bear Camp much earlier (not a JoCoSAR decision) and why the tips from locals (Black Bar Lodge owner and pilot John Rachor) were not followed up on extremely aggressively, and why the Carson/County choppers did not exhaustively cover the two mazes of logging roads west of Galice early in the process.
But far more important than the specifics is that possibly the internet has a powerful role to play because it’s a fast and simple way to collect and distribute information. Information – both coming in and going out – seemed to be a challenge for this effort and we can partly fix that without interfering by having online collection/dissemination that is linked to but not driven by the official effort.
Glenn’s working on a database for that and I’m working on the blog component so at least one approach along these lines should be ready very soon.
874 – JoCoSAR, I have to ask since I wondered last night when you first spoke up – are you by chance Sara herself? If you don’t want to answer that, I’d understand, but some of the things you’ve said made me think maybe you were.
In any case, thank you for shedding some different light and perspective on this. When one side is the only side we see, that’s all we have to consider, and this does give us other things to consider. As you have said, I do hope that the truth will come out, whatever it is. Thank you for mentioning Sara’s previous last name – that helped.
(875) wait… you are saying that Jo County SAR requested the investigation? That’s interesting, I thought I read it was the state of Oregon that requested it.
If Jo County SAR requested it, that is definitely a step in the right direction.
Susan,
I am not arguing the review process…quite the contrary. We begged for it. I have also stated that I agree that mistakes were made. Many of them. There were quite a few technical mistakes radios, etc. that can be fixed in the future. They will be fixed.
I am also not saying that the amount of money had any impact on the performance of anyone involved. I remember saying that it was a passion for the job, not the pay, that drives us here.
There were other calls for help made that weekend. I hope that the investigation will point out a very clear timeline of calls for help made. Please understand that I cannot get into that type of detail here..As much as I would love to.
Just to clear the record, I have never said that the lack of funding in the county was not an issue on this search! I have claimed that the lack of funding may contribute to the inability for Jo Co to hire someone with more field experience.
I too, wish that more could be done with the signage up on that mountain. This is the responsibility of the USFS and BLM. I can only add our opinions/advice and continue to respond to those who wander innocently into places that aren’t well marked.
Susan,
From what I understand, there are two seperate investigations occurring simultaneously. One is from the Governor, at the State level. To critique the State Agency response. One other investigation is with the OSSA (Oregon State Sheriff’s Association) and the Operations Sgt. in charge while there is no Sheriff here, and the SAR Coordinator (Sara R.) that will address all operational SAR specifics.
Hope that makes sense? I am hoping that the Gov. sticks to his requested completion date of Jan. 5th for the findings. This will force us to get the information out quickly and hopefully clear any confusion up in a timely manner. Most of the work is already taking place on a local level…critiques started here the Friday after James was found! (Wed James was found, Thursday Jo Co had a team critique and Critical Incident Stress Debrief, Friday was an Agency After Action Review). I would like to also point out that there is some serious grieving that is also taking place. Those of us involved, from the beginning, felt as though we were looking for a family member. That was in fact, part of the instructions during debriefings at the SAR house prior to each day’s searches, “Look for these people as if they were your own family.” I think that sunk in. We are greiving as if they were our own family. It’s just too bad that some of us didn’t get a full opportunity to do just that. We had to switch to defense mode to prove that we did a good job. Unfortunate!
(881) JoCoSAR, I think we are all basically back on the same page here. Somehow it always comes back to this. I think that’s how we all got hooked on this webpage. There were so many questions that were not even being asked, let alone answered.
And you are correct, Josephine County has not told their side of things yet. I will go back to awaiting judgement on Sara until we hear more. I am very relieved everyone is looking into this, we might actually get all the difficult questions asked, and maybe even a lot of them answered.
JoCoSAR, how many Josephine Co. SAR personnel are there???? I don’t remember ever hearing that. Are we talking about all the volunteer searchers from the area signing the letter of support? Just the deputies employed by JoCo? This to my knowledge has not been publicly addressed in the media.
You know, I appreciate your time here, but it’s very frustrating to hear all of this and not know what your job or supervisory level is in the job. Supervisor? Manager? Wife or husband of manager? Just a field searcher with a heck of a lot of information?(This one I doubt.) If you turn out to be Sarah Rubrecht, Under Sheriff Anderson, or someone in a comparable JoCo position, even from a neighboring county, this really isn’t the place for you to do this. It just doesn’t feel right.
883 – Susan, well put. Since it’s starting to sound hopeful that the other side will have more to say and possibly some reasonable explanations (such as the explanation of why it took so long to clear roads, etc.), I’ll wait to hear more before judging much.
(874) PS- I am very relieved to know she was not involved in the chicken fiasco. That story really upset me. My husband rescued a rooster from a parking lot of a restaurant on a busy street here in the Chicago suburbs. We actually got quite attached to Rocky before I found him a perfect home.
By the way, did Daniels get away with that?
“3. Friday: Sara Rubrecht’s deputies from Josephine county, drive past the fork where the logging road takes off to the right. The logging road that is supposed to be gated and locked and is not. The logging road that the reason it is gated and locked is because its COMMON for travelers to take that wrong turn. So did those deputies not check the gate? Did they see it was vandalized and open and not report it? Did they report it and no action was taken?
The deputies that drove past that fork were simply following the signs to the coast…as a logical first assumption to clear Bear Camp Road proper. They even took the Peavine detour, which was signed to the coast..and not talked about at all here. This may play into the theories of the gas consumption. Remember, none of us but the Kims were up there that night, nor did we know until much later, how hard it was snowing and what they could/could not see. In all of my experience on that mountain, I have never seen that gate at that intersection closed and locked. As a matter of fact, without going up there again, I wouldn’t even be able to tell you if you could see that particular gate from the intersection itself. That didn’t play into the search on that Friday. We had to assume that all gates were open and all roads were passable, because we had no proof otherwise. All of the press makes it sound as though this were the only spur road, yet in fact, there are hundreds of spur roads up there. All had to be checked, thoroughly! In my experience in Jo Co SAR, I have only done one rescue on that particular spur road, the majority of the rescues/searches have been on the many other roads up there. Again, we are on a totally new set of circumstances and I would not allow myself to use other peoples wrong turns as an indication where this particular family would/would not be.
John James has changed his story many times. Not really relevant. The comment that I heard that Sara made to him that he thought was curt, was “Be careful, I would not want to have to come and look for you two up here as well.” Regardless of that particular conversation, whether he searched “his road” or not, we know now that the car was found 6.37 miles past where he would have driven anyway. Hence the reason that we cannot clear a road completely until it is driven to the end of the road by one of our own searchers and marked off on a map. We were in the process of doing just that. I would not put any blame on Mr. James regardless of what was said that day or even if he had told someone that he had searched to his lodge. I personally dont think that anyone deserves any blame of any kind. I think that we can learn from this lesson and move on as better people for the next time…there will be a next time, undoubtedly.
This is an indirect comment on all the details of this situation, and perhaps a bit vague for many, but in my life experience the truth is usually found somewhere in the middle of opposing viewpoints. It is critically important to have the viewpoint of the other side heard and JoCoSar has brought up many we have not considered nor been aware of. The rest will likely have to await the conclusion of the various investigations.
JoCoSAR: “It’s just too bad that some of us didn’t get a full opportunity to do just that. We had to switch to defense mode to prove that we did a good job. Unfortunate!”
If this isn’t a JoCo Sheriff, Under Sheriff, or Deputy on paid staff with JoCo… I’m a monkey’s uncle!
Does it really matter what my true identity is? I don’t think so. I have been reading many pages of blogs/forums and haven’t responded until now. Not sure why now, but thought I could answer some questions. If you don’t think it’s appropriate, I can leave. I am human. That’s all that I can say about my identity. I have real feelings. I just wanted a chance to anonymously talk about this. Can you imagine what it would be like to be ordered not to publicly speak your side? Just be left to be criticised and ridiculed without any defense whatsoever? It’s impossible! I’m sorry that I cannot tell you who I am. I would hate for it to cause any damage to the real investigation later. I hope that you understand.
JoCoSAR
You mentioned that maps and signs were a responsibility of USFS and BLM. That is what I thought and to me that would be the most frustrating thing. I hope those agencies are learning how much they directly affect JoCo. What would be upsetting to me, is that if your SAR is underfunded (though you say that doesn’t make a difference) an ounce of prevention could really go a long way…help everyone!
Is there anyway that the 3 agencies (you and them) communicates about this, or is it kinda, they do what they do and we just go looking for people when they get lost?
Thanks for your input.
D.H.
On the current roster, there are approximately 100 volunteers in Jo Co SAR. Many of them are in different specialty teams, such as Mountain Rescue, K-9, Technical Rescue, Dive team, etc.
It is my understanding that everyone has been contacted regarding their support of their coordinator. It is also my understanding that they are coordinating a letter writing campaign to the editor of the GP Daily Courier.
890 – I understand why you would not want to identify yourself. Makes perfect sense. I do hope that you will continue to shed light here, as a human.
mapper-
I share your frusteration! Just finding a comprehensive map to use for the search operation iself was hard enough! Each map is different with different information. To add to that confusion, in 2002, the Biscuit Fire burned through that same area and many more skid roads were made and aren’t on ANY maps!
We have had meetings regarding this issue, even since this search. I hope that some consideration will be taken in the next publishing of maps?? Who knows?
I know that our SAR unit has talked about a personal “sign campaign.” We would like to raise our own money to put up some signs in the area. I realize that it is premature, but some ideas were signs with skulls and crossbones, a statistical sign with how many have been lost and how many have died on this road….all solar powered with lights of course! On Happy Camp Road, another problem road in our county, there is a winter park host at the snow park at the top of the mountain..this type of thing has been talked about here as well. Not sure if anything will come of any of it, but it’s discussion being had anyway.
PS
It doesn’t really matter if I am a paid deputy or not, if I were, I am certainly not getting paid for sitting here on Christmas Eve talking about this with all of you now…right?
(885) Yes, Maggie, notice I had to say I’ll go BACK to reserving judgement on Sara. Which I should have done in the first place. But in my defense, no one official or in the press was asking or answering the hard questions. And I didn’t think anyone was ever going to. Except BLM and Peter Sleeth, so they seem the most credible to me.
Sara herself said she was overwelmed. Her and Kati are both about the same age. And they are not movie stars used to the lime light. I would guess they are both very overwelmed not only by what happened, but also by the publicity. It’s also possible that one or both of them has an attorney who won’t let them talk yet.
So anyway, JoCarSAR, thank you very much for giving us some insight into the Sara side of things, however it is that you know her or know of her.
And for bringing us back to center. Let’s get all the facts first.
JoCoSAR, I can understand you can’t reveal your identity, but can you at least honestly say who you are not? Can you say you are not Anderson or Sara R?
Thank you for sharing so much with us. It’s much appreciated.
RE: 887 – One thing I can attest to, there are A LOT of roads up there to check out…spurs off of spurs off of spurs. Check the surrounding roads off Bear Camp between Galice and Agness on Google or Yahoo maps. Zoom back from the spot where the Kims were found – it looks like a bowl of spaghetti.
http://www.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wl&q=
JoCoSAR
Good to know that you guys are working on it, the skull and cross bones might just send the message, along with the stats! But I sincereley hope the federal agencies involed do their part, as it seems so unfair to me that they directly affect the SAR effort if they dont! I also hope the Oregon DOT figures out what to do with that road on its state map, and if they can’t get more detailed about what is there, they take it off.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks for your time here. I dont care who you are or are not!
894 – JoCoSAR, glad to hear about the sign issue. Whoever puts up the signs, it’s a good thing. The skull and crossbones wouldn’t be very far from the truth as a warning. Thank you again for participating. This really is information we’ve not seen in the media, and it’s good to hear the SAR perspective.
JoCoSAR: “Can you imagine what it would be like to be ordered not to publicly speak your side? Just be left to be criticised and ridiculed without any defense whatsoever? It’s impossible! I’m sorry that I cannot tell you who I am. I would hate for it to cause any damage to the real investigation later. I hope that you understand.”
Whew!… well, you even got to me with that one! It may not be my place to guess, but really, I think we’ve traveled way too far outside the box to worry about conventionality right now. I think you’re Sarah. Because I think your comment above sounds like a truly troubled woman. If you are Sarah, honestly, I feel for you. You do seem to be deserted by the other managers. I have never thought that Sarah should bear the brunt of this. Being retired military, I am trained to believe that supervisors and managers are responsible ultimately for the actions of those under them in the chain of command. Your superiors did not support you actively enough, before, during, or after the Kim search. Your shoes would be a tough spot right now.
Thank you Susan!
Think for a moment that the comments made to the Oregonian by Sara may have been said one way and twisted to look another? I know that is hard to believe, but this has happened before! Take for example “of course I was overwhelmed!” Imagine for a moment, your office that you respond to on a daily basis is mostly desolate. Nobody there but yourself. This office is in an industrial park where there is little traffic except for an occasional volunteer who wants someone to talk to. Then, from nowhere, one day there are at least 50 satellite trucks parked across the street and hundreds of people in and out of your little office. That itself is overwhelming! That doesn’t mean that she didn’t continue to do her job! That means that this was a new experience..
Let me give one more analogy about being “overwhelmed.”
Have any of you accidentally gone grocery shopping at WalMart on the first weekend of the month? Doesn’t that sometimes seem overwhelming? Do you go home? No, you get your groceries first and push through the crowd only to make a mental note to try things different next time. There are different types of overwhelming. I don’t believe that Sara ever said to anyone that she couldn’t handle her job…or that she didn’t continue to do it to the best of her ability.
896 – Susan, yes, about going BACK to reserving judgement – me, too. Based on the only information we were hearing, it was too easy to automatically believe it was either true or the only side we were going to hear. Still, not completely fair. I’m glad that there will hopefully be some truth all around to come out, and as Paul mentioned somewhere above, often the truth lands somewhere in the middle.
JoCoSAR – Whoever you are, please keep shedding light.
(890) No don’t leave, stay anonymous, we have not heard from any officials in the Bear Camp Road area, we are awaiting to hear something from the Oregon State Police and Portland Police. We have been saying all along, I wish someone who was on the search would pop in and comment.
Everyone else, let’s face it, even if JoCarSAR is a volunteer or employee, he/she is probably friends with many of these officials. Nothing wrong with him/her believing in that her friends are innocent until proven guilty.
JoCoSar, your post #894 is excellent. Sounds like you’ve been thinking, and listening to many ideas, and every single one you’ve mentioned in #894 are outstanding! Please follow through! I should think some business or charity in the area would want to sponsor the signs.
890 – I totally understand too why you would want to remain anonymous and why it is critical that you remain so, esp with multiple investigations ongoing. I sincerly hope you will not go away, we appreciate your input and comments and the ability to get a different perspective. PLEASE do not leave (excepting of course for some much deserved holiday cheer!)…
(870) Thanks for taking the time to put more relevant information into the mix. I know I have been very critical of Sara R. and Anderson. I still feel there are many questions that need to be answered and I am going to maintain a circling pattern until we all the findings are out and we can talk about this openly. Thank you for answering the question about whether you think she should be fired.
I hope JoCoSAR that after the findings are made public, we can continue having an open dialog with you and others at JoCoSAR. Heck I live far away but there is no way that I am ever going to sit idle again when someone is in need of help like this – at least I can try to do something.
Joe and I and others really would like to better understand what we can do to help. We both think the Internet can be a very well utilized resource in aiding in these searches – now I know most of the searches end quickly but these drawn out searches are where it can make a difference.
I also think a cross exchange site for SAR people around the country to share experiences and ideas would be very beneficial plus start to build a history up of experiences that future SAR efforts can research – history always repeats itself.
I have previous rescue experience – not in the wilderness – but in many difficult places and situations so I can understand somewhat of what has happened.
Another thing is clear to me that we need to find a better vehicle to get more funding for local SAR teams.
Glad to hear you did your debrief immediately as we know if you don’t small details are forgotten very quickly. I am still very concerned about the lack of policies in the Sheriff’s office.
Personally I very much appreciate you taking the time to speak out about this – it is helpful – ultimately the truth will wander out. I hope we are not taking your time away from other more important SAR activities. We can definitely wait for our answers.
If you at any point (or members of JoCoSAR) would like to discuss directly offline or online about some of the ideas (database, discussion, etc) we are working on please let me know. (glennforum at yahoo dot com)
I also propose that after the findings are made public and quickly discussed we bury the hatchet and focus on creating assets that can help out these efforts.
I was going to wait until midnight for this part…but
I hope everyone has a very Merry Christimas tomorrow and takes the time to really their loved ones and extend thoughts and prayers for those who are not here anymore and those that cannot be with their loved ones.
Joe – once again serious kudos to you for creating this opportunity for all of us – Santa better be good to you this year.
902 – JoCoSAR – I have to say that even when I read the “overwhelming” statement, I got it and could imagine that it would be nothing less than overwhelming.
When the Kims went missing with no trace there were 3 obvious possible scenarios:
1) foul play
2) accident resulting in car being hidden from view (submerged in a river, crashed down an embankment & buried in snow and/or underbrush )
3) snowbound ON a road
a different search / investigative approach is or should be used depending which scenario is assumed
#2 methodical detailed search (slow)
#3 a fast reconnoiter using mainly snow cats, snow mobiles of all snowbound roads the Kims could have been presumed to have taken
Why wasn’t the #3 scenario given weight in the Kims’s case? If it had I’m sure all targeted roads could have been scanned adequately in a matter of days. It doesn’t take a lot of sleuthing to find a car parked in plain sight in the middle of a road junction.
(893) It wouldn’t matter to me if he was a robot! Just to get some information from their side is very helpful. However, I am glad we are speaking to a human though.
Of course we are all friends. Some of us family. If I am not Sara, I am her dear friend. We all are. This is a small community. We love those who we work with. I love each and every single volunteer that I work with. To think that I may have grown up here my whole life from grade school through high school and I am now raising my own children here. I do take all of this personally. That is part of the reason why we do so well at what we do. This is one incident folks. No attention is being paid to the other hundreds of things that Jo Co SAR, or Sara have done on a regular basis. Only this one. The one where Sara’s hands were so tied behind her back. Has anyone even mentioned that she only filled the Logistics role in this incident? She was only allowed to find post it notes, pens, toilet paper, paper towels? No..because nobody wants to step up. Sara is responsible for coordinating volunteers on a regular basis. She is responsible for their training, health and well being. They are good searchers, good people. I don’t believe that has been disputed. Google Sara Nicholson. You will find a very well educated, highly respected Emergency Manager who has earned at least two awards from the state for Exemplary Interagency Coordination. State awards. There is always a chain of command, always someone else in charge…don’t make her the scapegoat here…she deserves better than that.
(901) D.H. I hope you are right and she is Sara. I like JoCoSAR, and I’d be happy to be wrong about Sara. And she just reminded me of something else that I think I have heard each one of us say here at least once (well, almost each one of us, less the obvious three suspects) but that is, that it’s not the point to get to blame someone(s). It’s the point to improve things. Mistakes will always be made, that’s human. But it’s also human to learn from mistakes and make improvements.
Whoever JoCoSAR is, she is getting us back on track.
JoCoSAR, in our defense, it gets very frustrating when you can’t get any answers, and it does make it easy to assume silence is guilt. But we know better.
912 – Susan, my thoughts exactly. I do hope that the truth makes it out, and I would love to have been wrong about Sara, too.
JoCoSAR – I keep saying it, but again, really, thank you for your perspective and comments. I’m hearing you.
Susan –
I agree with the frustration. Imagine what it must be like for the one who holds the answers and cannot answer the questions…left only to the devices of a newspaper reporter in Portland who wants to sell a story!
pssst…mapper, maggie (899,900) refer to post (874) on original thread… 🙂
ps.
the only really critical thing I have assumed about Sara is, that she probably should not have accepted such responsiblity (that job) at such a young age. I am close to the same age and completley understand what its like to try to win respect in a man’s world, as my field is also male dominated and have had some incredible experiences (when I say that I mean unbelievable and not so good). I know how much I have learned since really starting out around 22, and how careful I am to be sure I am ready for the responsiblity of a new position because I know how hard it can be to try to prove ones self when people dont want to believe you are capable of what you do. (etc, etc, etc)
However, I never knew that was a prety much, part time position, with little funding. It makes more sense to me now why that position might go to a younger person
However…I have to say I am still careful not to get in over my head! I hope Sara is holding up under the pressure.
Best Wishes and thanks for stopping here.
Glenn –
Guess we are on the same page..I had spent most of yesterday reading a forum on the Mail Tribune site. When I was referred here, I didn’t bother to read the prior 1032 postings…lots said there too..
(914) or an employee who wants to save their job…
Let’s remember that is how the system works…we are prey to the newspapers…sometimes they get it wrong…sometimes they get it right.
We are getting a clearer picture of the frustrations, issues…
I for one think the game changed (with the political animals in this mix) when they realized who James Kim was and who his father was. The chain of command is critical in situations like this and if someone over-rode the typical process in this case that is a real shame. Sara R. would be left out to dry.
And JoCoSAR your perspective is very helpful. It is going to take some time to process all this information. Remember we have been talking about this for weeks now…
Mapper –
Why should she not have taken the position. She has done a great job considering the circumstances! How would the cycle of good ole boy ever be broken if a young female with a passion for the job and the ability to make a difference never even tried? I am dissappointed to hear you talk like that. I am glad that she took the chance. I know that she will hold up fine. She is tough.
(917) I hope you find the people in this blog a little more accomodating then the ones on the mail tribune site. At times we may be quick to jump to conclusions but I think you will find the vast majority here are smart and when presented with the facts will adjust their positions and conclusions.
We very much want to help.
JoCoSar,
I am just saying that was my assumption before, when we had little information to go on. Yes, I agree. I know there is no other way to break the cycle. But a job like that in my area would be very competitive with pay, and people with many more years of experience would be fighting for it. So I had assumptions to on. I identify with Sara.
Glenn –
You make a good point about the politics and who Spencer Kim was. This made no matter to us. My point of telling you all about the search a week later, was that we look for everyone the same, regardless of their power to move satellites or pay $4500/hr for helicopters. The second group of people we searched for this month had active warrants, yet we searched with the same passion. Leave the politics to the elected officials to screw up. We have a job to do..that is to find lost people, period.
922 – Well said!
Mapper –
Thank you for your clarification. As I mentioned early on, this job does not have the pay available to compete for qualifications. If you do some more research, this particular position is part of the non union employees group in Jo Co. About 1 1/2 yrs ago, the BCC took away about 1/2 of the non union groups benefits. Around here, the better you do, the more gets taken away! There is definitely a different motivation for employees here. That’s all that I am saying.
922/923 – Yes, well said. And reassuring.
JoCoSAR.
that very much helps my understanding. I am glad to hear also, that she is tough and will hold up all right.
(914) Actually I don’t agree with you about Peter Sleeth. It is my impression from the contact that I have had with him, he just wants to find out the story. But that does not mean that he has it all right yet either. You have reminded us clearly that neither do we.
And as far as a story goes, if a competent young woman is getting set up to take the fall for an older man who is a failure at his job, insults the public he works for, participates in cruelty to animals, and picks on motorcylists trying to raise money for charity (all alleged), how much better could the story get?
So even if Peter’s motivation was only to sell a story, which again, I don’t think is true, but if this new angle turns out to be true, I’d bet he’d be more than happy to report the truth.
One testimony to her strength, that isn’t really relevant…
Since the search has been over (it’s still not really over), She has been in and out of the hospital ER 3 times for a personal medical issue. She had surgery on Friday and will hopefully be well enough by next week for the investigation. She deserves all of our well wishes!
Susan,
That part about being set up for the fall…..yeah….that is starting to look kind of interesting isn’t it? Would not surprise me! But, I shall wait and see and not jump to conclusions! 🙂
929 – Mapper, my thoughts exactly.
Susan –
I’m sorry, maybe I should clarify. I don’t personally hold anything against Peter at all. He is doing his job. I do wish however, that he would report as his opinion, not as fact…that seems to be a bit misleading. I also realize that the gag order by the Jo Co Sheriff has placed him in a position to report only what he can get his hands on, no blame to place on him there.
(931) Are you serious? A gag order from the Sheriff? The old one that I have pre-judged or the new one?
(932) I meant which sheriff, not which gag order.
The current Sheriff (until Jan 1) has directed Sara to not speak to ANYONE, except investigators, regarding search efforts. Although not a total gag order, close.
I totally agree with JoCoSAR – It would be a huge mistake to make Sara the scapegoat.
“What impresses me most about how people conduct their lives is not what they do or what decisions they make but whether they are doing their utmost lovingly best with what is at hand at the moment.”
Sara, I think, passes that test. Perhaps with flying colors.
The new Sheriff, Gil Gilbertson, has been a volunteer with JoCo SAR Dive team for several years. He will be an interesting breath of fresh air…
Thank you Kip –
I can tall you that Sara handles her job with the utmost care and more heart than anyone. I have read on several blogs how there is a question about policy to answer a phone call on your day off. Sara has no days off. She has a phone that is with her 24/7. There is never a time that you would call her and she wouldn’t answer – ever. If by some chance she decided to have a glass of wine, or be unavailable for some reason, she would have to notify dispatch, only if she could find the Undersheriff or Sheriff to take phone calls for her…remind you of this, there is no overtime pay or compensation for that 24 hr duty whatsoever! Just part of the job..
I am also not sure if I clarified here or not..the phone call to Anderson that was not answered on that Saturday was definitely not from Sara. Just think that is important to point out….
RE:#920 – “(917) I hope you find the people in this blog a little more accomodating then the ones on the mail tribune site. At times we may be quick to jump to conclusions but I think you will find the vast majority here are smart and when presented with the facts will adjust their positions and conclusions.
We very much want to help.
Comment by glenn | December 24, 2006”
Glenn, please, I’ve primarily posted on the Mail Tribune forum, and I am “smart”, and I have “adjusted” my position when presented with new info, such as JoCoSar’s lately. Please keep this in mind when making comments about posters on the Mail Tribune forum. All of us are doing the best we can (this forum & m.t. forum) with the limited info available. There are nut cases on just about every public message board.
It is very difficult to speak publicly and to totally trust sources in this case. I tend to be sceptical, in the case of the RV lost earlier this year from Ashland north of Rogue (Stivers), those of us who thought something was fishy were proven right. I think the Stiver case grandparents(whatever their name was) were running from the law, possibly even getting themselves stuck on purpose.
OK, who was the Saturday nite call from then?
D.H.
The grandparents names were Higgenbothem.
From what I heard about the phone call, it was a call from dispatch that someone was trying to find either Anderson or Rubrecht. I was told that at the end of the message left, that the dispatcher advised that the person looking had now reached Sara. Hence the need had gone away for Anderson to return the call. I would imagine that the dispatch tapes would be pulled and recorded for the record.
(929)mapper, ok, I’m trying not to jump to conclusions. But this is the same sheriff involved in the chicken fiasco. Did you read that story? That’s a bad person, period. And harrassing the bikers on the charity run. First of all I don’t think real biker gangs do charity poker runs. And secondly I don’t think a real gang would put up with that crap from the police. And those real gangs have a lot of money and attorneys and sue all the time for discrimination, which that was. No, I think he was picking on a bunch of regular guys out riding their motorcyles and trying to have fun and raise a little money for charity. And I think he knew darn well they were not a real gang, because he knew he could harrass them and get away with it. I know, I am jumping to conclusions, these are all un-substantiated opinions of mine. But I realy dislike people who are cruel to animals. They are very weak and very dangerous.
Can someone give me the link to take me back to the MT forum? I was there yesterday, but can’t get there today..
JoCoSAR …your # 937 it’s music to my ears. if ‘they’ try to nail her I, and am sure others here, would want to rally to her defense and help her in any way we could.
Nevermind…I found it..Are they really still on page 44? That’s where they were last night when I left. I never could figure out how to reply there though. This one is much easier. RogueFly is great over there. Sheds some great local insight.
(939) the grandparents story had an almost funny ending. The grandfather, who I think was a pretty young grandfather, had a warrant out for his arrest on some drug related thing. Anyway, it was not like he was some big international drug dealer, so the police station with the warrant lost him and that was that. It’s not like actively hunting around for him or anything. But one of the officers in that case happened to see the name on CNN when they were rescued. And thought to himself, “I wonder if that’s our same Higgenbothem?” and it was, so he had him extradicted back to California and arrested.
Thank you Kip…I will pass along. I don’t think what she is looking for is a “rally,” but more of a complete understanding of the incident and reactions that took place. Public education is key here, not just saving the reputation of one person as a piece of the puzzle. Hope that makes sense?
Susan –
You are correct, I could go on for days about that search in particular. Many things different in those circumstances. Again, we were searching with much passion..there were innocent children involved!
(939) I think you know to whom I meant on the tribune site…there were more than the usual three suspects that are found here.
D.H. you have been a good force here…no problems with that.
I think it is great that JoCoSAR choose this board to communicate.
I went back over to MT site..thank you to DjDee…whoever you are..I still can’t seem to reply over there. guess I will stay here for a bit longer.
LETTER TO THE EDITOR – Grants Pass Daily Courier (yet to be published)
21 Dec. 2006
Lots of negativity surrounds the recent high profile Kim Search. Bad news always makes better press. Perhaps if we as a society relished in GOOD news the story in the Oregonian would have been different, more truthful. But we don’t. We want the dirt, true or not, as long as there is a scandal or scapegoat. Anyone can sit in their armchairs and judge what they would have done differently, but none of those folks were out in the snow or down in that canyon. Those of you who were not there, and don’t do this kind of thing, have NO IDEA the emotional investment made by everyone involved, from Sara (who puts her heart and soul into every lost person and their family) to the teams who go out on assignment in the kind of weather and conditions the rest of us huddle from. If anyone here in Josephine County wishes to pass judgment on how this search was run I ask these two questions – first, when was the last time you answered the pager, got up from the dinner table, kissed your wife/husband/children goodbye and said, “I’m sorry, I have to go, someone else needs me” and then headed off to VOLUNTEER your time to find someone you didn’t help to lose. Second, I ask you to look closely at your checkbook register and see when the last time you donated a DIME to Search and Rescue in your county. They are after all, a totally volunteer group. The Ground Searchers, the Mountain Rescue Unit, ARES, the Dive Team, the Snowmobile/Cat Team, the Dog Team, and the Explorers, as well as much of the administration – all volunteer their time. They have only the equipment that has been donated or granted to them. They train on their own time, meet State requirements every year on their own time, and they search for your loved ones, in the middle of dinner, their vacation, or Christmas ON THEIR OWN TIME – what have you done lately??
Jocosar, for your info, MT board I believe sends an email after you register which you have to verify before you can actually post on the board. You may need to look in your spam folder for the email and click on link in email to be able to post.
I supposed that was the case..I checked there, no luck. Oh well, I don’t mind staying here anyway.
JoCoSAR, you are more than welcome to stay here. In fact, so glad that you are here. Wow. Really.
It looks like that other page has just about died anyway. No worries, after 44 pages of speculation, it’s probably better that way anyhow…
RE:#955. It may look dead, but it stirs back to life every once in a while. Few of us expected this story to carry on for so long, and to have such far reaching effects. We don’t post as often over there. I think people tend to take longer to mull over their comments before posting because the forum is connected to the Mail Tribune. Besides, there are many topics on that forum, not just one. The forum system over there might have something to do with it also, completely different structure and tools. We can go back and edit our comments, so we don’t have to make a new post to correct or add to something we posted earlier.
Re: 911
If you are still around, or read this later:
As everyone here has expressed, thank you so much
JoCoSAR – I have been hoping someone from SAR would
join our discussion, and doesn’t sound as if we could
have found anyone more knowledgable of the situation
than you.
I wanted to ask you if you could be any more specific
about one of your quotes about this case from (911):
“Only this one. The one where Sara’s hands were so tied behind her back. Has anyone even mentioned that she only filled the Logistics role in this incident? She was only allowed to find post it notes, pens, toilet paper, paper towels? No..because nobody wants to step up.”
That really intrigues me…
(951)I think that letter is pretty judgemental. It basically implies that if you are not directly involved you have no right to an opinion or to ask questions. And it also flat out says our society just wants dirt, not the truth. That’s a pretty strong statement and it’s mean and it’s not even true. I think that’s been the problem with Josephine County, those sorts of attacks on others make people look guilty, even if they are not. And it makes them look like they don’t want any questions asked from the outside, it looks like they want it all handled internally, a good olde boys sort of thing. I would suggest re-wording the letter that everyone wants the truth to come out, including those hard working volunteers. And go ahead and strongly compliment those hard working volunteers, but do so without insulting the rest of us. You actually don’t know what other people do and don’t do and how they contribute to society, and it’s not nice to assume because you are an SAR volunteer that you are better than everyone else. I don’t mean you are assuming that, but that’s the way that letter sounds to me. More flies with honey.
Not my letter, and I agree with you to a point…just posted as another opinion, that’s all. As you recall, I am the one advocating an outside investigation. I want someone to come in and take a look. Please. I didn’t post that letter as my opinion, just another source…that’s all.
JoCoSAR, I don’t blame you for wanting someone to talk to. Lord knows, I think you probably do need someone to talk to. In fact, I personally want to make sure that you seek more help if needed, because you are most likely under a type of stress few of us have experienced. You don’t need to reply to that… but I felt that I should put it out there for you, something inside tells me to. Now I might feel differently if you turn out to be Anderson or Daniels…. just kidding. Sort of.
Lisa – I want to answer your question..can you clarify it a bit more so that maybe I can?
D.H. – great comment. One thing that I would like to point out. When an officer is involved in a shooting type incident, they are put on admin leave and sent to mandatory counseling. This was an incredibly traumatic incident. Instead of mandatory counseling, everyone in charge bails, leaving those involved to their own resources…whether it be blogs, forums or silence all together. This should be re-evaluated for sure!
Ok, I give…for the record…I am not Anderson or Daniels. Promise.
961 – JoCoSAR, I was intrigued by that as well. Do you mean that Sara actually was allowed to play less of a role in the actual coordination of this SAR effort? From that comment, it almost sounds like she was forced into the background, yet has become a lightning rod.
Along with D.H., JoCoSAR I do hope that you will seek any help that might be needed – gotta be stressful.
Also, JoCoSAR, I am just curious to ask if you know…
Did the Finley case in involve any SAR? You can just
be a yes or no answer if it’s something you don’t want
to get into. Now it sounds like it didn’t… But you
also said you weren’t working there at the time.
I don’t know much about the Finley case. I have tried to find documentation as well. I think though, that it was actually a Curry Co. case? As I mentioned, that was before my time here. I even tried this week to ask a reporter in Curry Co. for their information. Still not much found. I would love to learn from that.
Maggie – Yes to your question, Sara was placed in the Logistics position of ICS.
Re: 961, 964
I just wanted to ask like Maggie, if you could tell
us more about why Sara’s hands “were so tied behind
her back,” etc. If you can’t comment much on it, I
understand.
JoCoSAR, strap in if certain people decide to chime in on this conversation. Some people can be cold and cruel without any logical reason. Of course in your line of work, I guess I’m preaching to the choir.
#947 Yes JoCoSAR, makes total sense. am glad you said that and am really glad that’s Sara’s view. She seems not only passionate about her work but level headed too.
#966 by who? Anderson? (if can you say?)
p.s Whoever, you are – I am glad you are clearly
not part of the good ole boys club!
966 – JoCoSAR, wow. If the Logistics position means as described above in 911 getting supplies, etc., then my heart really does goes out to Sara. Since you’ve said that you are at least close to her if you are not her, I hope you’ll let her know that any judgements made here have been based entirely on the information seen in the media up to this point, and something like this bit of information would mean something different entirely. I regret assuming that the one side I was hearing had to necessarily be the truth when I am old enough that I should know better. Again, I am grateful that you are here sharing this new perspective, and I do hope that at some point soon we’ll all hear a balanced report with plenty of good facts from all sides. I know it’s not about blame and reputations, but I do think that it is a shame if someone is wrongly accused in any situation – particularly if that’s the case in one as publicized as this. Amazing. Thank you again, whoever you are.
Also, what are the main divisions/departments in SAR besides logistics?
The Incident Command System (which you can read more about on FEMA’s website) consists of Command and General Staff. Command Staff is the Incident Commander, PIO (Public Information Officer), Liaison, Safety. General Staff consists of Operations, Logistics, Planning and Finance. It is possible to run ICS as a Unified Command. This means that the incident may have two (or more) people in charge, one in charge of the Investigative Search, and one in charge of the Ground Search. I can elaborate more if needed.
Another important addition to the story, is just because Sara is the paid Coordinator of these volunteers throughout the year, does not automatically mean that she is in charge of every search that comes her way. That will hopefully be shown in the investigation as well..
973 – JoCoSAR, if you wouldn’t mind elaborating, and if you are able to say, I would like to know more about who actually was in charge that put Sara into Logistics and more about her role – was gophering things like toilet paper and pens really the extent of her assignment in this operation?
Maggie – I would hope that an entire copy of our Incident Action Plan would be released during the investigation. I should clarify that even in a logistics postion, no opinion or suggestion goes without being heard. No single decision was made by one person. Each IC made decisions with the consensus of all of the staff involved. Everyone put their heads together and pooled resources, really, the ultimate goal was to make the right decisions..regardless of positions assigned. Hard to imagine if you weren’t there, right? I understand.
JoCoSAR, who was in charge of the Kim search?
(974) For your own protection JoCoSAR I think you have said enough. Not that I wouldn’t want you to tell us everything but if you are giving out this information during an investigation I would hate to have something like this cost your job.
For myself, I get your perspective and am very glad you are talking to us here. I hope that posting here has helped you get stuff off your chest as well.
I can wait until after the 5th to find everything out. Others may feel differently.
Hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas…
Also, it is only fair to elaborate on Logistics…that position was tasked with getting everything for everyone. Meaning, food for searchers and staff, transportation, search resources, fuel, porta potties for media, Red Cross, radios, gps’s, etc. It wasn’t only paper and pens…
Thank you Glenn. I hope the report helps as well.
Thank you, JoCoSAR. Yes, it’s difficult to imagine until you describe it. I’ll be the first to admit that I had no idea how these operations were organized. Along with you, I do hope that the information will be release during investigation.
If anyone is interested, I found this about ICS on wikipedia when I didn’t immediately find information on FEMA’s website (I’ll keep looking, but this seems to break things down and give some description) –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_Command_System
(980) Well I hope you are back here as soon as the report is filed (even before the findings public) and start talking to us about everything…
Re: 973,974
Thank you so much for that information! That is very
interesting. I wish you could tell us more about the
political power playing on the inside (obviously there
is some now, but I don’t know if there was any during the
search)… but I suppose that could be too much information.
I think we would all be interested in as much as you can
tell us…
Re: 974
It seems that is part of the problem – a discrepancy
between Volunteer Coordinator and Search Coordinator?
And now the blame is being placed on Sara, for she is
(being) called the Search Coordinator? Which implies more
than she actually had authority over?
I think that you are right though, I do not in any way, want to jeopardize the outcome of that report. It is very easy to sit here and defend all involved. I only wanted to spark a different pattern of conversation here. Just please keep an open mind and remember above all else, there is another side. Another side filled with stories of real people…real people who wanted to help, that’s all. Thank you for listening and responding positively. You have offered a small amount of light in such a dark time. Merry Christmas to all…
Maggie – look on Fema website for NIMS compliance. Should reference Homeland Security Presidential Directive #5 and #8. That should explain ICS a little bit better. I hope.
JoCoSar, I’m with Glenn on not wanting you to say more than would be, well… prudent. Stay all you want and say all you are able since we are glad that you are here and want to hear what you have to say, but I understand that there is plenty you can’t or shouldn’t say, so please do protect your self.
Of course Lisa, the blame is on Sara…she is the only one left!! Everyone else packed up their bags and moved on…
984 – Very, very well put. And thank you again. You are right that there is always another side. Thank you for reminding us to keep an open mind.
I’ll take a look at the FEMA site, thanks!
Hi, I have posted here before and tried to be constructive with suggestions about the Oregon State maps and the signage. I am from 3000 miles away.
Just curious as to Sara’s role during the Kim SAR as far as whether the SAR was the more formal Command and General Staff or whether it had two persons in charge— one for Investigative and one for the Ground Search? Did Sara R fill either of these last two roles, if that was the set up? Or did the Kim search evolve so fast that the command system was unclear or changing from past, simpler SARs?
When outsiders, like most of us here, hear “SAR coordinator”, we think this person is the incident commander or his representative calling the shots. That is the impression the Oregonian article makes.
For example, “By 6 p.m. that Saturday, Dec. 2, Fuqua was on the phone to the Oregon State Police with a message: He had a break in the case. Soon after, state police Lt. Powers, called Rubrecht to report Fuqua’s discovery.”
Why would he call Sarah, if her role is so limited, was she just answering the phone in the ops center at the time?
And why would Sara R be expected to out the NG chopper with the FLIR (heat sensor)? Is that part of the Logistics function; sounds to me it is an operations or commander’s call?
Yes, ***Merry Christmas!*** Thanks!
Sara would have been answering her cell phone, not an ops phone. As the County SAR Coordinator, and as logistics, the requests would have to come through her…maybe even as a dual role?
For clarification, no Sara was not the IC in either capacity on this search.
Merry Christmas JoCoSAR, and to everyone!
I assume as a military lifer IC is “in charge”.
JoCoSAR, I am sure glad you’re here. The insights you have shared with us really help me more fully understand the situation, especially Sara’s. Thank you for that.
I never did have a bad feeling about Sara this entire unfolding. But till now I had little to substantiate the way I felt.
Glenn and Maggie, so you now want the only person who can provide perspective on this matter to keep quiet. Why? You are so wrong. Information will offset the mountain of crap that is descending on JoCo as a whole. I could care less about the juicy politics of the situation, I am just interested in the facts, that show what I hope to be the truth , that the SAR grunts were magnificent and that the search was far more complex than we have heard. and you two (Glenn and Maggie) want to stiffle and shut that down. Great.
JoCoSAR, I would like to know why the cell call search box was not acted on as soon as the the cell phone engineers presented it? My impression based on guessing, is that it should have narrowed the search very quickly and very specifically to just a few roads in JoCo? I don’t understand why those roads would not have been checked by land vehicle and air on Sunday morning. Was the cell phone search wedge intel conveyed to the other aircraft hired by the Kims?
Or… Incident Commander? Now I’m confusing myself. :0)
(962) I am not even in the SAR business, but I thought it was common knowledge that it is extremely stressful for the rescuer. In fact, I’m pretty sure that it is actually harder on the rescuer than the rescued. There was a lot of press about that after 911 and after Katrina. And while the rescuers are rescuing they are too busy to deal with all the complicated feelings and emotions. And then they feel guilty for feeling bad, since they survived at least.
Really, that is just not right, that any SAR worker there does not have a professional to chat with anytime they want that. I can understand the county not being able to avoid a full time grief counsellor, but there needs to be a better system for these smaller towns when tragedy’s like this strike. Or even when a SAR worker just feels they need a little help.
And none of us even thought about that. I’m really glad you are here JoCoSAR.
(963) I think we had all figured that out by now! LOL!
(995) In 12 days all of the information should be public. You can wait a couple of weeks to hear all of the information? You would rather have “one of the hard working grunts” lose their job because you want a question answered?
All I suggested was that JoCoSAR has said enough – if I were in JoCo SAR it would probably take me about 20 minutes to figure out who JoCo SAR based on internal emails I might have access to, memos, etc – JoCoSAR (is a she) and it won’t take long for someone to figure out who she is. It just seemed silly to me that someone could actually lose their job because they talked to us when in two weeks we will all know…
If they weren’t investigating…I would be all over it…but they are and we will get the answers.
JoCoSAR accomplished what she set out to do…get us thinking about possibilities, provide input, open our minds. I think she did that. She probably feels a lot better. I wouldn’t want her to lose her job over that – if heads are going to roll them let them roll based on the facts of the report – let’s not help set somebody up MORE as a fallguy.
Where is your Christmas spirit?
BTW…Hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas.
995 – Bamadad – Please re-read my post:
“JoCoSar, I’m with Glenn on not wanting you to say more than would be, well… prudent. Stay all you want and say all you are able since we are glad that you are here and want to hear what you have to say, but I understand that there is plenty you can’t or shouldn’t say, so please do protect your self.”
Yes, I want to hear. No, I don’t want JoCoSAR to either put him/herself in trouble or in some way jeopardize the investigation that we are all hoping will provide truth.
Merry Christmas Everyone…
Re: 989
You have always made good points all along, Barnadad.
I certainly have no idea how to answer those questions.
For now, it all seems quite complicated.
One thing does sound more certain – that there is more
accountability to go around than just to Sara R.
I hope the report makes it clear.
I wish we could hear from JoCoSAR if they think more
responsibility and accountability lie elsewhere – with
specific people or if it’s true that everyone – all
commanders – even ‘good ole boys’ really gave it their
best.
and again I thank you for the info. I have a long post, maybe tomorrow on how I think the Peter Sleeth article in the Oregonian gives the impression that Sara R. played a huge operational and command role in all of this. So I thank you for clearing up this impression.
Again for everyone on the SAR team, maybe they need another shot at some Post Traumatic Stress counseling. I am retired military and though I have never suffered from it, the military has changed 100%, from just saying “suck it up”, to have psychs in the field to help out after big time stressful missions where you lose a buddy or see some horrific events.
(978) glenn, I think she’s fine, as long as she is giving us information that would be known to most SAR’s in Josephine county. Just don’t tell us something that ONLY you would know JoCoSAR.
Holy Cr*p. Just saying that in general, not to anyone in particular. 😉
1001 – Merry Christmas, Glenn. And to all!
(1004) If she is Sara R. and they in an investigation and they were told not to speak about it – she could lose her job.
Do any of us want to be responsible for someone losing their job just because they broke an administrative directive from their superiors?
We will have our answers in a couple of weeks.
If someone is going to lose their job then let the findings speak to that.
We are getting a lot of information but a lot of questions still need to be answered.
If the situation is as suggested then Sara R. is going to be the fall guy from the politically motivated – I don’t want to fuel that.
1007 – Glenn, I agree 100%. And narrowing down isn’t too tough.
OK Maggie, apologies to you , just trying to get some perspective after all the speculation, which was driving me nuts. I just want to do practical, improve the situation type things. I know one thing, whoever JoCoSAR is,….. they can write and think very well- so this is positive. …and Sara R stock has gone up considerably.
1009 – Thank you, Bamadad. I agree, we have all been speculating and suddenly get some real information – of course we want to hear. I just worried about someone getting something off of his/her chest backfiring – like Glenn just said, I wouldn’t want to contribute. It’s all good. I agree and noticed, too, that JoCoSAR is extremely articulate and sounds very intelligent, definitely nice to see.
Re: 1007
I agree that JoCoSAR should be careful – I thought
she had already left when I sent my last post, I
wasn’t aware of any of the posts since she had
said she was leaving.
I was just writing about what I wished JoCoSAR could
talk about.
I can wait two weeks!
So ***Merry Christmas!***
(1009) absolutely that is why I wouldn’t want her fired because she took the time on Christmas Eve to help us understand.
If she is going to be a scapegoat then we can be just as a strong force to help her just as we were to bring this info out.
btw…I think anyone and everyone shouldn’t hold back on their questions and the discussions – I just thought it prudent we don’t help set somebody up. That’s all.
This has certainly been an interesting day out here!
my 2bits — please.. let *her* decide what to say, not say. I’m very sure she is very capable of deciding herself.
1013 – Amen to interesting. Just when I thought we’d covered darn near anything we were going to, I sat here last night when that first message from JoCoSAR hit and about fell out of my chair! Definitely a different angle to consider, and I, too, hope just for the sake of my own general sense of the world (usually optimistic, admittedly sometimes even naive – which I why I couldn’t understand/believe the not caring angle), that it does turn out more as JoCoSAR presents than as what we were previously hearing. If none of the actions/inactions were contributing factors to James Kim’s death, I would sleep better at night. We’ll see. Again, wherever Paul said earlier today that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle sounds about right to me and is kind of what I’m expecting we’ll hear (assuming it’s made public and we get to hear). Wow (my word of the day here – truly just kind of blown away). Wow.
(994) Kip, I really learned a lesson on this one. In the beginning I just had a lot of unanswered questions. I was more upset with the reporting than anything. But after those articles from SFGate and the Oregonian I was ready to hang Sara out to dry along with the rest of Josephine county officials. And then when someone dug up the chicken and the biker story, I was committed to hanging them out to dry.
I detect a big assumption by many posting here…. that the entire relevant truth will be disclosed this upcoming report. wish on..
1017 – Kip, I’m wishfully hoping that we will hear the truth – hoping being the operative word… It would be nice.
Yes, Glenn, extraordinary.
Merry Christmas Eve to all.
I would be interested in hearing what mistakes
JoCoSAR thought were made! Hopefully, we may
get to…
(1003) JoCoSAR, I want to email Peter from the Oregonian and let him know that he may have been set up himself. The reporting is still not thorough, but I’m hoping that he wants it to be. I want him to know there are a lot of unanswered questions still, in fact more. If there is anything specific you do or do not want me to say to him let me know. If you would rather email me directly it’s jaegerdaly at aol dot com.
(1014) agreed
So, Joe, now that we are flying past 1000 posts here, too (bet you didn’t expect that when you first started posting about this in your blog… did ya?), will you be flipping us all over to a third page? Since I haven’t said it in awhile – really, thank you again for having us all here as something like guests who’ve never left on your blog commentary.
[1016] Susan, I don’t think I’ll have to change my mind about the under sheriff. sadly, he was the wrong man for that job.
(1015) Maggie, I was just telling my husband that I’m waiting to hear from Oregon State Police and Portland Police, and then I’m moving on with my life. Maybe Pac is right, maybe we are not doing any good at all. So I am really glad I stayed long enough to see I was wrong to judge Sara without all the facts. And of course now I’m hooked all over again.
At this point we don’t know where the truth lies (like that little play on the word)
LOL
In any event you reporters wanting to sell newspapers and you have people that want to keep their jobs.
Nothing JoCoSAR has said tonight clears up some of the key facts…
Someone was told to check the road up and around Black Bar Lodge…multiple times by multiple people. Whomever that was responsible for coordinating did not do that…the road was mistakenly marked as cleared…another mistake.
I don’t think the people in charge of the Kim search are anywhere near off the hook yet.
(1017) I make no assumptions about the validity of the findings, etc…especially since it will be scrubbed by the time we see it…but we need to give it a chance and shouldn’t try to derail it in any way.
Somewhere in all this rubble there will be the specks of truth and hopefully they will come to the surface.
There is more to this story for sure and I am sure we will have plenty more to discuss as we get more of the details.
It actually bothers me more that JoCo has initiated its own investigation ahead of the state…understand why they did that…just remember it does not mean that the state investigation will be more accurate because of it…in fact it is the opportunity for those under the microscope to manipulate and manage the information to best support their agenda.
Joe, virtual as it is, you really seem like a good friend. James Kim couldn’t have asked for a better helper. Thanks for the blog and thank you for the fine example you set.
(1025) I think the jury is still out on all counts. You heard another side of the story today…first time we heard it and from someone that has had the time to take it all in and think about it…not during the flurry of all the activity.
I would like to suggest we all take the time to see what happens. If it wasn’t Sara R. handling the coordination them somebody else was and key things were missed big time.
My mind is still not made up either way.
However, JoCoSAR is an intelligent person and that certainly has raised the bar for me in some respects.
(1007) My husband says (and my husband is NOT an attorney) that only a judge can issue a gag order. So maybe Daniels is just throwing his weight around some more and Sara doesn’t know her options. If I were her I would get an attorney, and not from that county. And one that actually knows something about PR as well as the law. When someone is even considering leaving you holding the whole entire bag, there is nothing wrong with some legal advise. JoCoSAR, I wonder if that is something Peter could do, get out an update article with the general impression that Sara might need some legal help and the counties SAR might need some grief consuelling help and see who volunteers to help out. The world is a big place and there are a lot of good people in it. Sounds like Sara got a bad deal so far, maybe its time for things to go her way.
As many have echoed here, it has been a “wow” kind of time since JoCoSar weighed in…to quote from my own post 341 in the original thread, “It APPEARS there were mistakes made, certainly, but in fairness to the paid professionals, they have not yet weighed in on this blog with their version of events and/or explanations for all the various alleged misdeeds & mistakes. How many times have we heard one side of a major news event, especially through the eyes of the media and news agencies, and later found out there was another side that cast events in a completely different light ??”
Seems prophetic now, but I mention it not to pat myself on the back so much as to reiterate & remind us all it is something we should remember when scrutinizing ANY EVENT. I grew up in a media family & saw firsthand how much money and ratings can drive reporting at times. I was also involved in an event later in life that received intense media scrutiny, and as a first hand participant, was shocked at how parts of it were reported incorrectly and then never corrected. That is not to say I don’t appreciate and respect the press, there are so many things we would NEVER hear about without them.
Like I mentioned before..I am not here to clear anyones name, only to provoke a different chain of thought.
Glenn, I appreciate your hesitance to side with anyone. I wouldn’t expect you to at this point. When I explained the two different investigations, perhaps I didn’t explain well enough. The Gov. office will be simultaneously investigating the State agency response, and has no way to do that with the locals. Jo Co could have done their own internal investigation itself, but knew that it would have been questioned at a later time. This is why we requested an outside investigation with no partial involvement so that it wouldn’t be judged as biased later. I hope that makes sense? I will be happy to try to explain this better if I can?
(1017) Kip, I agree, there is no way that will happen. At best that report may uncover some issues. But we are talking, county, state, and national governments. Bureaucracy. I’m afraid we are still are dependent on some investigative reporting.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16190545/
Kim SAR is nominated by MSNBC as one of the top 20 headlines news stories of 2006. Its readers will vote for top 5 of them. So this is an immense story (not a surprise).
I wonder what the research (if any) shows on a Blogs effect on the participants in a highly public story. We are not talking about thick-skinned politicians or sports/media stars who are wealthy and can handle the spotlight. Just normal people in extraordinary circumstances– so I hope this whole SAR outfit gets some assistance and knows that most of us just want a thoughtful review and improvement in the “system”. Looks like that will happen.
along with passing on common sense to folks, so they don’t get into this kind of jam, where they need rescue in the first place. Maybe that’s another way how sense becomes “common” these days.
Imagine for a moment, if she could even afford it, if Sara R. “lawyered up,” wouldn’t that give the appearance that she was guilty of something? Maybe I am just naive in the fact that if someone does the right thing and is honest about it, they will prevail?
(1024) Kip, it will take a lot for me to change my mind about the current sheriff. Too sick the whole time this was going on, and now healthy enough all of a sudden to issue a “gag” order, which my husband thinks only a judge is allowed to do. I really don’t trust people that do violent harm or allow violent harm to animals or kids. I think that’s a sign of weakness, a sign they are cowards and afraid. And I think the weak dog pushed into a corner, is a very dangerous animal. Give me the alpha dog any day.
Susan, my bad with the terminology about the “gag order.” He gave an order…not particularly “gag.” We were all told not to talk about it to anyone….sorry!
1031 – JoCoSAR, I’d say that you accomplished your mission if it was to get us thinking of possibilities in a different direction and keeping an open mind. Thank you again.
Kip and Susan –
In regards to your qwest for the truth, or at least the whole story…if you don’t get it with the report, I will be happy to come back here and discuss openly anything that I can to clear up confusion. Can one be fired for telling the truth? I guess we can wait and see…
(1031) Who asked for the state to investigate? That shows a lot of brains and confidence. A good chance whoever asked for that knows they were not the person to get left holding the bag.
(1036) My husband will be happy to know he was right, as always. LOL!
1034 – JoCoSAR, I am optimistic and even naive (just said that a few posts back) that way, too. I always want the good guys with good hearts trying to do right to win – it’s hard when you can’t always tell which ones they are.
1038 – JoCoSAR again, yes, once you are able to say all that you want to say more freely and can help clear up the millions of questions, I’m sure we would all really like to hear it from your side. I hope you’ll hang around here. Carefully as you need to be, but still here.
(1034) I have seen both first hand…it is a craps shoot. If you think Sara R. is being wronged she should at least seek legal advice to protect her. One big advantage is the “changing of the guard” that is happening but it is also the perfect opportunity for the new guy to clean house.
JoCoSAR…I do have one question that doesn’t seem to have been asked…
Do you blame the Kim’s for their situation?
(1033) bamadad. Yes time to talk again about what the webpage can do to help.
1. Establish credibility with SAR nationally and receive credible information.
2. Establish credibility with SAR nationally and be able to pass on tips from the public. I would guess this would require training for whoever is screening the public information. Since there is so much, man hours must be spent putting it into different classifications. But that seems like something intelligent, trained volunteers could do without going on site and getting in the way.
3. Gather charitable donations from well meaning people who want to help, realize they would get in the way if they showed up, or don’t have time to help, but have money to help. And now we have to add to that list making sure both the families and rescue workers have access to grief counselling at all times. So for each search, or seaches in general, money could be raised for that specific search, or whereever it is needed, or specific aspects of the search, ie. grief counselling, helicopters. So actually we need to set up a 501(c) for that part, so people can deduct their donations.
4. Report credible current information, so there could be links to news articles and links to places to help.
5. It should have disaster planning ideas and lists (see even the 3 fellows have contributed). How to plan for a road trip disaster, snow, hurricane, tornado, terrorist, if you have kids, if you have pets, if you have elderly, etc)
6. It should have educational general information about how SAR efforts are coordinated and communicated and organized. And then for each specific situation, a what can you do section.
7. Each disaster, search, would have a place the authorities could list what they needed. Just as an example, Josephine county could have contacted the website and said, we are not getting enough thorough reporting. We are not getting grief counsellors.
I see this as something like this as well, where people can share ideas and questions. When I first had this idea I thought it was brillant, and then I was like, this will never work, and now I think it’s workable.
I do not in anyway blame the Kim family, nor do I place blame on any other people who make mistakes that we look for. Although I agree that they made some mistakes along the way, everyone makes mistakes. My job is not to judge people in anyway, my job is to make sure that we do our best to help those people. I think that a better way to spend our energy is to focus on what to learn from this whole experience rather than focus on who to blame..for getting lost, or for not searching a particular road quick enough. We need to fix some of our issues, and we also need to focus on the public education side of things. We don’t get many opportunities to take advantage of people’s heightened awareness level…now is our chance. Please help me with that.
Susan – I love your way of thinking…try this link, maybe it’s a good start, maybe not.
http://ccso.server101.com/oregon_links.htm
Good idea about non-profit. Josephine County has a non profit 501c3 number that we use for exactly that purpose. Each year, we send out a request for donations letter. All of our funding comes from those donations. We get about $30,000/yr in $5 and $10 checks from the citizens of Jo Co. All of that goes to utilities, training, fuel, etc.
(1034) Absolutely not. This is modern America, lawyering up absolutely does not mean you are guilty. Our law system is just too complicated to handle on your own. Many innocent people go to jail or lose law suits because they did not “lawyer up”. And what I was thinking was if we could get some press out there that a young intelligent professional woman MIGHT be getting set up, I think several bright attorneys might volunteer, and some maybe for no charge, just because its the right thing to do. (well, and plus they’d get famous)
1045 – JoCoSAR, based on everything else you have said here, I’m not at all surprised that you don’t blame the Kim’s. Where you said: “We don’t get many opportunities to take advantage of people’s heightened awareness level…now is our chance. Please help me with that.” – you are a breath of fresh air. If nothing else is certain, I’m sure we will all be glad to do anything we can to help there.
In our after action review with agencies involved, we did walk away with a “where to go from here” list. This included many names from agencies who will participate in a regional task force to establish something similar. Resource typing is on the list of things to work on. When a coordinator asks for a k-9 team, that team will be defined ahead of time, and that coordinator will know exactly what they will get with that request. That is just an example, but I think that the group will follow through with this very mission. Help from others is always appreciated! Thank you!!
Another idea of the task force is to create an incident management team, much like that of ODF who responds to large fire incidents. USFS and ODF have got this one figured out..we wouldn’t need to recreate the wheel, just set up our response like they have. Perhaps offer specialized training to this group that maybe each individual Sheriff’s Office couldn’t pay for themselves. Resources are slim in this part of the universe. It makes sense to pool resources and eliminate redundancy?
(1045) Thank you.
PAC ARE YOU LISTENING?
JoCoSAR– How much effort was expended on searching along or adjacent to Hwy 199? I think state-wide early on you only knew the Kims were headed for Gold Beach to the Lodge? That would be the logical choice to go to Gold Beach if you missed 38 or 42. When did that route 199 go off the table? Thanks and again, the more I hear about competing searchs, like for the other two incidents that weekend the better I feel about perspective. (I guess I feel better, bad choice of words)
1045 – A refreshing perspective, and the best one to have given you are SAR. The more you “speak” the more of my respect you earn.
I keep waiting for PcNWer to come in and drop one of his odious bombs on us again…am surprised he’s stayed away, though beyond glad that he has. Perhaps Santa came early to Joe Duck world.
Thanks again, Joe, for hosting. Merry Christmas to you and yours!!
JoCoSar – comment on this if you can ?: in earlier posts many questioned how slow the searchers worked their way down Big Windy. My experiences with the Rogue River had me taking an oppossing position, that the drainage must have been h— to go down. Both to address those earlier questioners, and to shed some real world light on what those conditions were actually like, what can you say about conditions in the drainage ? What do you think it says about James Kim and his determination ? I was surprised he made it as far as he did ? Do you feel the same ? Recognize you may be able to answer none of this as it may compromise you, so no worries if you don’t.
(1049,1050) If you want to participate with our external discussions we would really appreciate your input and who knows maybe we would ending up building a couple of applications on the internet that you could use and it won’t cost the county any money.
(1038) Well, first of all of course anyone can be fired for anything. But if you are fired without just cause, you also have legal alternatives. And I’m sure lots of employees have been fired for telling the truth. But lots have probably gone to jail for lying as well. And I bet lots of employees have sued their employers for firing them for telling the truth and won. And lots of employers have gone to jail for telling employees to lie. It’s interesting that my least favorite sheriff has employees afraid for their jobs if they tell the truth. What is he hiding?
Seriously, I think there is legal help needed there. And not from the county.
Bernadad –
I don’t believe that any roadway or possibility was taken off the map until Monday when Kati and the girls were found on 34-8-36. I know that Del Norte was searching it on Sat and Sun. I think that because it is so well travelled by citizens, we would have thought that someone would have spotted the veh with the public announcements given? I cannot give a real answer to that though without documentation in front of me. I would hate to say something from memory that was later contradicted!
A public service announcement – Santa is currently tracking over Peru.
http://www.noradsanta.org/en/map/index.php#
That is link to track Santa – thank god for Norad.
I also have the proof from a physics professor that shows Santa can do it all in one night!
Paul, I will address your questions to the best of my ability. I was not in that drainage, but have talked to many that were. Please keep in mind that after we found the footprints that led us there, we only had about 15 hours of daylight to search the five miles of treacherous canyon. Our motivation was to find a missing person, James had a motivation to save his family’s life. Although both important missions, I can’t say that we could ever duplicate his strength, no matter what training we offer!
One thing to remember about searches of any type, not just this one…we are searching for clues as well as a person. At any time, he could have left more clues for us, or left that canyon. We certainly didn’t want to miss any of that. We conducted as close to a grid search as we were able. Although we trekked through that canyon as quickly as we could, we had to be as thorough as possible. I hope that sheds some light?? Again, I wasn’t in there. I was looking at a map on a table in a warm office….much different perspective, not afraid to admit!
(1045) I dont’ know who you are but you have the right attitude and you are smart. If Sara has you as a friend that alone says a lot positive about her. 1045 says what most of us here (except our three “others”) got back to eventually. “Blame” is only important to the point that we identify mistakes. I do not ever to expect to stop making mistakes in my life, I’m just hoping to stop making the same ones. LOL!
(1045) Do you know if Daniel’s comments were taken out of context in the article? Seems like he wanted to deflect and place blame on the Kim’s.
I cannot comment on Daniels comments. That would be no better than what the newspaper did. Perhaps if he joins this forum, you could ask him. I would imagine that he could only speak of his personal opinion, lord knows, he hasn’t asked mine!
(1062) Good Answer…
If Sara R. is getting the preverbial shaft from this and it is found out to be undeserving I know there are a few of us here you can count on to help get the word out…maybe even a couple of stories in the press.
We want the process improved and we want more lives saved. There really shouldn’t be a price on that.
I think that the correct way to go about getting the word out is not through the media, they are how we got here to begin with…can’t we think of some other way? They just seem so biased…
JoCoSAR, maybe I missed something, but has Daniels even been on duty during and after the Kim search? I’ve been assuming that Anderson has been in charge of the Sheriff’s dept. during this period.
(1046) Can you even imagine how much money Josephine county would have received from all over America, let alone the world, if we had set that webpage up in advance. I am actually Canadian, I live here permanently. American’s are the most generous people on earth. I really believe in their incredible charity and generousity. Actually, if you really look, the more wealthy a nation is the more kind and generous it often is. And often the more wealthy a person is, especially in America, the more kind and generous they often are. That’s why I got so upset back in the beginning about the insults because the Kims had worked hard, studied hard, and become successful in America. There is NOTHING wrong with that. Hopefully that is what most parents are teaching their children. And not that success equates with money. That is not what your great country is about. Success is doing what you were meant to do, being good at it, and having at least enough financial sucess to meet your basic needs. (which by the way, much of the rest of the world does not have) That is what this country is all about, always has been, hopefully always will. So now we have the internet, when a tragedy happens, it would be awesome to tap the generosity of the American people. It could change things, make things happen, and it would make the people who donate feel better. In the Kim’s case, no charity was set up or published to help the local efforts. No animals were endangered, so the already established Humane Society Disaster Relief did not kick in. There was no “disaster” so Red Cross did not show up. And now we find out that stressed out rescue workers did not even have the option of counselling, locals are worried about the price of better signs. No, we can do better.
Also, I was concerned about the deliberate search JoCo did along Bear Camp and the maze of spur roads? Did they also do a hasty search? A hasty search is where you just proceed down the roads/spurs as fast as possible (20-45 mph) with the principal focus on finding the SAAB and incidentally looking for mud/snow tracks on the road edges, footprints or sounds like a whistle, … followed up by a more deliberate search later or on the way back.
Same for the drainage– was a hasty search done where a two man team just barrels down the ravine, followed by a more deliberate search behind? Again I am not a SAR person, so I only know these types exist. and I know that the types could be mixed depending on resources, probability of discovery, etc. I learned some of this from the Mt. Hood search.
Do you have any night vision goggles or capability?
How was the cell phone wedge search box handled? As far as narrowing the search box to a wedge– 26 miles long by 90 deg in dispersion ( I guess) sort of the SW quadrant. Of course that forms only a last known area and the Kims could have continued much further outside it, I suppose.
Thanks. This is important info to gain a feel for how difficult the search was and how broad the area was.
Wait Susan…did I not mention that Red Cross did show up? They were wonderful! They fed everyone! The only cost for food is the actual cost that ARC paid for their supplies. They provided the personnel and served the food, we just had to buy the supplies. They are a great resource!
The Sheriff was not involved with the search itself until after it was over. He was “running” the office while Anderson was “running” the search.
1064 – Unfortunately, for most people, the media seems to be the main way to get information. Sure, there are plenty like us to find places like this to discuss things and hear other information than what’s on the nightly news, but there are many more who are not like this.
Bernadad – at the risk of getting too deep into details, I am afraid that I will have to defer to the report for that information. I hope that all of those questions will be answered then. If not, as promised, I will be here again..trying to fill the gaps for you. I hear what you are saying though..
1068 – I’m glad you mentioned the Red Cross, JoCoSAR. I’ve donated (blood, money, etc. – no, kidding, just blood and money) to them because they always seem to turn up in places I didn’t know they would – like here on this search. That’s cool.
(1049) Do you always do an “after action review” That’s what I thought should be done after every SAR incident. The news does not mention that ever.
Sorry, but I am getting back to my original concern. Most of us here know nothing about SAR, and nothing about reporting, so why are the obvious questions occuring to us and not the reporters. When the 2000 election happened, my husband and I did not have TV. We got sick of it and cancelled it about five years before that, maybe more. With the contested elections and 911 we went to our neighbors to watch TV or had to watch the internet news. And I really learned a lot about news. Frankly, there is no other way to say this, it’s crap. If you read or watch what they report and then you go to the original document, there is often little or even no correlation. so I am back to my original concern, where did all the real reporters go? What happened to freedom of the press?
JoCoSAR, I have to ask, then, if it’s OK for you to answer this – there has been some confusion, I think, as to whether the Sheriff Daniel is boss to Undersheriff Anderson? Since it sounds like Daniel was in the picture, but just handling the office, was he still sort of in charge of Anderson?
(1064) Media is an effective tool if you have access to the right people, etc.
I have frankly never been upset one iota at the amount of resources a SAR team has on a county by county basis. …or the number of volunteers, high tech equip, etc. It is kind of like a hospital, if I keel over next to Mass General in Boston, or Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, –good chance, if I keel over in remote Northern Maine– well I hope I luck out.
I was immensely impressed with the volunteers on this Kim SAR and on the entire Mt. Hood effort. One thing I know is that the 100+ cadre of JoCo SAR volunteers were charged up and ready to go for no monetary reward and …. just getting them organized and motivated is to some extent (large maybe) due to Sara R. and perhaps others in the County. That’s a nice present to all of us.
JoCoSAR do you think a bunch of motivated people on the Internet can make a difference in SAR efforts?
Do you think the activity on Joe’s site is making any difference?
As the chain of command at Jo Co SO goes…there is the Sheriff, David Daniel (still in charge at the time), Undersheriff Anderson, Sara R. reports directly to Anderson. Under Anderson, there is a jail Lt., Det. Sgt., and several patrol Sgts. There are two patrol deputies and one patrol Sgt. trained at the same level of Search Management as the SAR Coordinator for coverage/extra help in SAR. Only one of those was involved during this search. He was assigned to Operations.
1070 JoCoSar. thanks very much. I appreciate your answer. take care. Bama
1076 – Glenn, LOL. You are killing me.
(1052) bamadad, what I think I have really been concerned about here is humanity. I somehow got from that Oregonian article that the locals hated us, (we live near Chicago, have a little log home near the Mississippi, and yes the locals all are rude about Chicagoans, yet one on one, most of them are good people in spite of their bigotry.) didn’t care if lost people lived or died, were just taking money for doing a job. The silence on their part was a BIG mistake. (thanks Mr. Chicken Killer). And from the “other three” I got that if you are stupid you deserve to get lost and never found. So does that apply if you are retarded or a kid? I am so glad JoCoSAR has joined in. It has renewed my faith in humanity.
1077 – Thank you, JoCoSAR. At one point I wondered if Brian Andersons’ boss was in the picture at all, and some things almost made it look as if Anderson was at the top of the pecking order and Daniel completely out of the picture. Thank you for clarifying.
(1079) Well you know where that response is going!!!
LOL^7
But I think it is very important. What we are establishing here is a perimeter. This will be very important after Jan 5th. We may even want to set up an invite only chat for those that really want to help and obviously extend it to others from SAR that want to speak. It would be an amazing learning experience from all of us.
Heck I want to fly out to JoCo and spend a few hours with the people at SAR and model out their issues specifically with data and process and come up with some recommendations. I would definitely do that for free!
(1061) glenn, I missed that, where did Daniels blame the Kims? Sorry, but I’m really having a problem being objective to that idiot. Tortures the chicken, harrasses the charity bikers, misses the entire search, and then show up at the end to blame the Kims and Sara. I know I promised to not pre-judge, but Daniels is not good.
1082 – All kidding aside about the reason (Pac) I think you asked the questions with that particular wording, yes, I agree that those are very important questions for reasons that matter so very much more than the first one.
(1083) See post 841…in that article…here is excerpt…
Josephine County Sheriff Dave Daniel defended the training, experience and performance of his search and rescue team, adding that ultimate responsibility must fall on the Kims, who passed four signs warning snow could block the road ahead.
Susan, I posted the link in 833:
I just saw an interesting article on different types of searches done in these past three high profile cases (each of which has had a sad ending) and also how New Mexico has centralized operations at the state level (I think I’d heard that previously in some article). I will warn you that one of the comments from Josephine County Sheriff Dave Daniel might get some hackles up (got mine) because it reminded me quite a bit of our pal Pac in its delivery, but other than that, I did think it was pretty interesting and had some useful things to say. Anyway…
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8M6OLK00.html
Comment by Maggie | December 24, 2006
(1084) Pac wasn’t the reason I asked them…however I thought it was funny the (1079) post…
I would like to hear JoCoSAR’s response to those questions.
(1084) Pac wasn’t the reason I asked them…however I thought it was funny the (1079) post…
I would like to hear JoCoSAR’s response to those questions. It will be telling in regard to another concern I have…whether SAR will want or embrace our help. My gut is that it will be a parallel effort and not initially embraced by SAR…but I could be wrong. That was the real reason for the question.
(1063) If Sara is getting the “shaft” let’s involve the press now. In spite of this mess, I have faith in freedom of the press, and in America’s freedom of press. I realize it’s gone corporate, which seems to be less reliable than if a government controls the press.
But really, this is a great country, which believes in freedom and freedom of the press. And perhaps this is finally the perfect time to talk about the fact that our “free” press no longer serves us. I have known for a long time that America’s free press is no longer reporting, it’s corporate, it’s politica, it’s not accurate. But America is still great and this can be fixed.
which questions Glenn?
Glenn, what questions are you talking about?
sorry…my computer is messing up!! Go figure, guess it needs a rest like I do…
1087 – Glenn, the reason I thought so was because of your question in 1043 about whether JoCoSAR thought the Kim’s were to blame, her (erm, his/her) response in 1045 that they were not, and then yours to Pac in 1051. I thought this was going down the same track since those seem to be his common themes (that the Kim’s were at fault and that this blogging all does nothing and never will). Sorry if I’m the one this time that got us off track onto the very thing I’ve whined about – at least you thought it was funny 🙂
(1090) See post (1076).
I will repeat them again here:
JoCoSAR do you think a bunch of motivated people on the Internet can make a difference in SAR efforts?
Do you think the activity on Joe’s site is making any difference?
And one other…How much has posting on this site helped you?
Thanks…
holy cow. that’ll teach me to sing songs around a christmas tree.
Ive been refreshing for an hour and just when I think I have caught up…..
JoCoSar. good to have you here. Sorry I missed out on the conversation, but I believe i am caught up now and I appreciate the enormous effort you have put forth to answer our questions.
(1093) It’s fine…this just answers one burning issue for me and pretty much closes out Pac’s positions…so a two for one. I thought it was keen of you to remember those points…and funny. 🙂
I have to tell you quite honestly, this site has helped me tons! If it has helped you understand a bit better, than it has helped me more. I am glad that I landed here…
(1095) Hopefully you haven’t had too much EggNog…nice to see you and Merry Christmas. My wife thinks I am nuts to keep doing this tonight…I keep jumping into family stuff and back out…kids are mostly in bed now.
JoCoSAR, I really am very glad to hear that this has helped you feel like you have gotten your side out – something that clearly wasn’t before. I’m still so glad that you landed here, too.
(1097) Well that is a nice gift…Joe will be very pleased with that.
Do you think we can make a difference in the future with some of the things we want to do to help out SAR?
(1097) I am glad you landed here also. You have definitely helped me to understand better.
Tara, Glenn – we celebrated Christmas on Friday (long story about two fully grown 3 year olds…), and I can’t even imagine having to pull myself away from here for too long today. My boyfriend did just tell me that he is about to stage an intervention if he sees me refreshing this page or typing on here much more 🙂
I had another idea from a p-message I received from another forum. Someone over there had information from Delorme about how the maps are produced and that it is near impossible to keep all the county information accurate, etc…even when counties will close a road but not take it off the map because they don’t want to lose the right of way.
Map companies needs to set up “wiki” type sites to allow locals to register and provide feedback about the maps. The feedback should be reviewed and then can be overlayed into the map updates for people to see accurate information.
1102 – ditto in my household. It is Christmas Eve.
(1102, 1104) It shows one of two things…
A) We don’t have a life
B) We really care…
Guess there is a third…
A+B
Susan (1080) Yes I agree. Plus it is refreshing to hear more about the complexity of the search.
help joe! My down arrow button is smoking.
1103 – Now that is a really good idea!
1105 – Sadly, I’m the third option, I think…
(1108) Oh, I thought I was the third option… must be the fourth previously unknown option. 🙂
Glenn, if we did nothing more than establish a site to report SAR activities, link to media reports and family web pages, set it up as a 501(c) and collect money to distribute as donors wished, that alone would be a huge help. My suggestion would be first set up the charity, establish credibility. With both the donors and the SAR. Talk to Red Cross, the Human Society, other charitable entities that already have these systems in place. And other charitable entities that eventually this web page would work with. That could set up us as the national SAR webpage. (www.sar.net is open) My experience in business has been that if you do the right thing, all the rest just follows. I’m sure it will be the same with a charitable organization. I am a tax expert, but not a 501(c) expert. But when you are ready, I could ask my pet sitters 501(c) expert, he set her and many others with a 501(c) very inexpensively. I’m thinking I could talk him into walking me through this for a good cause.
My down arrow button is a fused puddle of melted plastic… 🙂
(1110) Are you going to grab the url or should I?
Looking forward to talking about it.
I for one am amazed at what has happened here today. It is really cool. All you guys are really great especially to be putting in this time on Christmas Eve…wish you all a Merry one…I will be back on sometime tomorrow. I have things to tend to. Gnite.
JoCoSAR, did you ever hear anything about the Kim’s (James & Kati) having traveled on Bear Camp Rd. before? This was posted twice on this forum by a local who is said to have had the S.F. family tell him that. May be irrelevant to this discussion, but it is something that has been nagging at me.
Also, do you have anything to say about why the Kim’s have been so closed-mouthed in general with the public?
Joe- did you realize Sara R and Sara Nicholson were one and the same? You gave Sara Nicholsons contact info WAY at the beginning of all this. Just curious.
Glenn, please post when private chat will be, I may want to be in on it if possible. Or you can email me at surfinwebs @ actionnet.net. I’m Dee.
This has been an extraordinary day. I had no family pressures today, just me and the retrievers, bless them. Lucky me, eh? It will be different tomorrow, I have a full day planned. I might sneak on occasionally tho.
Hang in there, JoCoSAR!!! And thank you.
1115 – I noticed that, too, today when I was back over on the old page and wondered if he’d just grabbed it from an old directory…
1112 – For the domain sar.net, please let me know if you already have a registrar you typically use or if you’d like a suggestion. We can do that outside of here on that list.
I have not heard anything, except here about the Kims travelling up there before. I don’t think that really matters…
I would imagine that they are so closed mouth because they are grieving. Who would want to be involved in this if they didn’t have to be? What more should they say? I suppose it would be nice someday to hear Kati’s story, but I sure wouldn’t be rushing into that if I were her. Perhaps she is just trying to hold herself together to make some sort of normalcy for her children on Christmas Eve. Again, as I have said before, not my place to judge.
Can someone direct me how to get to the comment about Sara Nicholson and Sara Rubrecht being the same person? I am just curious…
1117 – Looks like sar.net is actually already registered and belongs to someone in Mexico that just hasn’t yet put up a site.
OK, JoCoSAR, thanks for response. Have a good day tomorrow, hope nobody gets lost up there. So did anyone watch Seahawks today? Sorry, couldn’t resist.
(1118) JoCoSAR – Did you see the question in post (1100)?
If anyone wishes to use any of my web design/developement experience, let me know what you need. I’m not backend, into design and development. http://www.surfinwebs.com
1119 – JoCoSAR, try this link:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/12/05/james-kim-update-as-of-330-pm-tuesday/#comments
Check out comment #2. Perhaps it was from a 2005 directory listing under the previous last name – unless Joe just knew somehow.
Yes- sorry joCoSar, I asked joe that question. 1124 should get you to the place….
I think that any attempt to help with this many educated and dedicated people could do nothing but help! I have promised to come back, I will certainly be open to any offers of improvement that anyone has to offer.
I saw posting number 2…unfortunately, that 955-5552 number is just for the volunteers. It is not often answered and may not be answered by the appropriate person. If you would like to contact Jo Co SAR, or Sara R., you can email srubrecht@co.josephine.or.us
I would say to leave a message at 541-474-5300, but email is the best bet. That is only checked by Sara and answered by Sara.
JoCoSar I want you to stay under the radar and not get you into any trouble, but I wanted to email you something. If your interested my email is Harley168@aol.com send me an email if you can (and have an anonymous way of doing so) Id like to send you something I found interesting.
okay got it. never mind. Ill send it to Sara
More on the domain – since the other (sar.net) has already been registered, I’ve found a couple of other options not registered – Glenn is the other list active yet?
(1114) I got an email this week to Kati Kim’s post. She was not sleeping, and got on a “blog” “forum” (sorry I don’t know the difference) to start talking. I can’t find it again, but I remember she expressed concern or fear of the press. Once JoCoSAR got me to thinking of Sara as a human, I remembered Kati’s comment about being “scared”. (not sure that’s the exact word, but definitely along the lines of intimidated, uncomfortable). Kati and Sara are two very young women, probably quite smart, who have both lost a lot and been stressed a lot, and quite probably without professional consuelling yet. We see young actresses, who thrive in the limelight, begged for publicity, desparately want to be famous, yet once they are, and the media starts to attack them personally, a lot of these young, “professional” actors fall apart. Kati and Sara are just young normal people, who are only in the spotlight because of a major trauma in their life.
I think that is way Kati and Sara are not talking yet. It has been about a month, it can take up to two years for a normal person to start coping with a loss.
Susan- I have that link but its kept out of this forum because of you know who (the three of them). email me if you want it again.
Susan – I read Kati’s comments. She also said that she’s been reading a lot of what’s in the media, even if it scares her. One more reason I’m glad most of us are gentle – can you imagine being in her shoes reading some of the stuff that’s been said? I can’t. Like you said, two regular people that were one day just doing their thing and then quickly thrust into the spotlight.
1132 – Tara, ditto here.
Tara – is it the link with Kati talking? That would be interesting…
(1114) Hi D.H.- I am not sure it even matters if Kati and/or James were on that road before. Their college memory might have been: summer, beautiful, romantic, scenic. Definitely very different than near to winter with kids at night. To me that sounds like the blame game again. I agree we are all to blame for our personal responsibility.
But I can’t tell you the number of times we have been lost, on our Harley (actually you are never lost on a Harley), in our travel trailer, in our truck , hiking, in other countries, where we couldn’t even speak the language. God and luck were on our side apparently, certainly not our normal intelligence, apparently our sense of adventure took over. But we could have died just as easily sitting at home on the couch. So the “blame game” can also be played for not risking enough.
Yes- but like I said we have some down right rude folks reading and we wanted to protect her. I can email you the link
to protect you, JoCoSar email me and Ill reply. no strings attached. harley168@hotmail.com
(1135) Yes the site where she posts is a blog and before this incident she used it to promote local businesses (her own included) with reviews, etc.
http://www.yelp.com/topic/zxXvLvoUV7x4qjjyi0sZhQ
That is the link. I don’t think we need to keep it away from anyone. She has it on a public site.
(1118) If Sara has you as a friend, she must be somewhat ok.
Or I wouldn’t mind just posting the content here without the link if anyone wants (I know, this sounds silly, and anyone that wanted to could still find it, but I agree completely with feeling the need to protect…) Let me know.
well… there it is. Did you read the latest review?
1139 – Or we could just do that since it’s not hard to find 🙂
I can’t email you, but if you want to email to yodave@charter.net…I will get it.
(1132) I agree with everyone here. Due to our “three stooges” no point in giving them ammunition to attack Kati. JoCoSAR, email me or Tara, we’ll find the link.
Here is Kati’s post if the link doesn’t work…
Dear Yelpers,
Difficult as it has been, my inability to sleep has forced me to pry myself from between my two sleeping babes each morning to read stories and view pictures of our terrible affair on the Internet. As much as I’ve been scared of dealing with the media, reading about my husband’s heroic efforts and seeing pictures of him has helped me immensely.
Reading all of your kind thoughts and prayers this morning has given me much strength.
Even though I first joined Yelp only to defend the family business against nay-sayers, I felt that I had become a part of a community and I poured a lot of heart and soul into writing about my experiences around the city with my husband and my children. I am so grateful to have had this forum, because now I can go back and read about our times together.
I believe that the family businesses my husband and I started together were a gift to me. I’m not quite confident of my ability to run them in his absence, but I have an amazing group of friends/staff who are working their hardest to keep these stores alive. Late last night I visited Church Street Apothecary and saw all the flowers, candles and notes which symbolized the grief and sympathy from our community. James would’ve been so proud.
Out of respect for him and what we created together, we will be re-opening both businesses on Monday. The girls at the stores and I have all agreed that this is what James would’ve wanted.
xo,
Kati Kim
doe/CSA
1142 – OMG. Tara, no, I hadn’t seen the latest review. And I almost wish I hadn’t because that is so incredibly sad beyond imagination.
And today’s review by Kati:
[Yelp review deleted – sorry Maggie but I thought this wasn’t a good place for that review at this time ]
(1142) which review?
what review? of what? who are these “three stooges” that everyone keeps talking about? I think I missed that??
(1148) Aye yi yi…wow…that is tough.
1150 – JoCoSAR, we have three trolls that like to stroll through here, get everyone all wound up and agitated by saying nasty things about it being all the Kim’s fault and how we are accomplishing nothing by being here and blah, blah, blah. Just scroll up awhile, and you will find them. One of them pretty much had a whole day’s worth of entertainment.
(1150) Three posters on here. PacNWer, Observing and Mickey M (whom was reported to Disney for misuse of one of their trademarks – he linked to a Disney site)
PacNWer was on the Mail Tribune site..he must not have been nearly as bad over there…crazy how some people think that is funny???
I was so bugged about that. Pac was NICE in camparison at the MT. Why? He was almost perfectly CIVIL over there.
(1148) That is really sad, how do you know it’s from Kati?
I am actually shocked about the comment from the “in-laws”. Frankly I think that is very inappropriate to publish that, after all, his parents are also grieving and confused. And they are obviously, smart and controlling people, plus from another culture. Personally I think that should have been keep private. Goes along with our “cut them some slack” concept. Hopefully his family will cut her some slack for that.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/jocosar/
Here is a website to contact Jo Co sar as well..not super user friendly though…
(1150) the three “others” cannot stop reminding us about personal responsibility. Which I think almost everyone on this forum gets. We are just not stuck on it. Its pretty obvious James and Kati had something to do with ending up lost. What the three “others” seem stuck on is that even if we all take total personal responsibility, somehow, somewhere, someone will still get lost. Humans, mistakes, go figure. And they are mad at us, (really, mad at us) because we moved past that and wondered what else went wrong. I have a theory. If your parents always criticize you, (or some kind of even worse abuse that you cannot even remember) and so you get confused and associate criticism and negativity (or abuse)with love, because that’s the only kind of love you ever got, then as an adult, that is how you seek love and attention, you look for abuse. And in order to get it, you have to dish it out. Our three “other” contributors are experts are baiting and dishing out abuse, actually much more expert at their issues than we are, so we fall into their trap, frequently. Combine that with an upbringing where you never experienced any kind of forgiveness. I honestly feel very sad for all three of them. Especially Observing, I think he is still a child. But at some point in your life, it’s time to stop blaming Mommy and Daddy, and get up and be somebody.
Good night all, Merry Christmas!
1156 – Susan, I’m fairly certain that it’s from Kati because it’s on her Yelp page (with hundreds of reviews she’s done back when none of us knew her name…). Grief is tough all around – whether you are the wife or one of the wife’s in-laws – I’m not touching the appropriateness of either party with a 10 foot pole. It did make me sad, but also showed so much strength to pull of as happy as possible a Christmas for the kids. OK, done, crying, can’t go there anymore. Let’s talk more about ideas for signs or maps or something…
(1150) My post on 846 pretty much summed up why I felt Pac was so out of line.
JoCoSAR please keep in mind when you read the entire thread (if you do) you will see several of us pretty angry – from our position and the information we have at hand we felt quite justified in our position. No apologies here – it just comes down to how important this topic is to us – a lot of us have personal experience with some of this so it hits close to home.
I am very glad that you are talking to us and even though we had strong opinions, etc you will see at the end of the day we are very sincere about trying to help and make a difference.
I may or may not read the entire thread..I have read enough in the past several days to do me for a while. Most of them are the same. I appreciate what we have been talking about now, no need for me to go back. I dont need to know who anyone is, or what things were said before you knew more information. I know that you don’t have all of the information yet, I can only hope that you get the rest in the investigation. I have nothing to hide…only to gain from experience. I can share my experience, and hope that others can learn as well…thank you for the conversation.
1162 – Whoever you are, JoCoSAR, you have truly shown yourself here to be a gentle soul who also has very thick skin and such an open mind. Sincerely.
1154 – Observing hasn’t been seen or heard from in days, I assume – hopefully – that he is gone. Mickey M. has been away for a while too, though not as long as Observing, but I miss him not one bit either. PacNWer (or Sou’Wester as I like to call him) has been absent today. I wonder if Joe finally got fed up and blocked him ?? The frustrating thing with him is that he was, occassionally, rationale, and even, at times, had constructive points. Mostly he was just hyper-critical, super-sarcastic, bitter, annoying and full of narcisstic opinions, but his rare forays into rationality threw everyone off. He could not stop beating up on the Kims, however, and that incessant rant turned everyone off. He never had anything new to add (or almost never).
So where’d everybody go? Did you all go someplace private, or is it just time for Christmas Eve? 🙂
I’m still here…but looks like everyone else is playing Santa???
Hi guys! I’m awake! DH I guess this is what you get for saying this forum wasn’t of interest anymore.
Susan, as for your theory about the naysayers. I understand that may be the case with some people, but I think its unfair too. I have family issues (and like Kati I am in a hotel tonight!). My mother is abusive (more as I have gotten older) and has treated me very coldly and is why sometimes I say I dont know that they would care if I went missing. I, however, have always been an extremely compassionate person. We who have suffered from not completley loving parents, face enough humiliation out in public for feeling that we may be unlovable. But, to further stigmatize us is really the worst. It’s bad enough to have a difficult family, to then feel that people think there may be something wrong with you, if your family isn’t quite right.
Okay, just had to get that off my chest!! I have always been an extremley (sometimes too much) sensitive soul and I don’t think we can blame the three stooges behavior completley on upbringing. If anything I think abuse makes many people more understanding and sensitive to others. Though that is not always the case.
Okay enough forum space on that, just had to speak up for the people out there that might feel like I do about that!
Its been interesting and I was like Tara for awhile there I just kept refreshing over and over trying to catch up. I guess I really dont have too much to add except its been nice getting to talk with you all and I hope everyone has a nice and safe holiday, especially if they are travelling!
I, like Kati hope to be enjoying a morning swim and….well I bet she had her reasons to post about the in-laws…no one is perfect, and as I know, no ones family is perfect! Thanks so much JoCoSAR for talking with us today, and for also saying, that naturally you understand Kati and the family probably hasn’t spoken up because they are greiving….seems quite natural to me too and I wonder why more people dont understand that.
Thanks, good night! Have a great Christmas.
ps glenn I have thoughts about what you said about the mapping and wiki….I have fears about that and thoughts about that, (good and bad, though not totally developed thoughts) but it sounds too much like work tonight to think about!! 🙂
I Santa’d as I went tonight. Now I’m steam cleaning my carpet so it smells all wonderful for Santa in a few hours! I know, I must be crazy.
I’ll be in Medford later in the week to see my Grandson, 5 yrs. old the little sweetie. His golf swing is already better than mine. My son in law rafts the rogue all the way down, he was thinking about being a guide for old people for short easy trips. Right now it’s raining for Christmas in Newport. No, it doesn’t rain here all the time.
Have a nice Christmas DH. No, your not crazy. I was up til 5am last night and it all started by deciding to go the 24hour store at 2 cause I knew I wouldn’t wake up early enough to do it before I had to leave. And oh, JoCoSAR you made a comment earlier about getting your groceries and seeing the crowded parking lot and going in anwyay…well, I am that person that sees the crowd and turns around and goes home!! I thought that was really funny.
Goodnightagain!
Goodnight, have a wonderful Christmas mapper, and once agAin JoCoSAR have a great Christmas tomorrow. JoCoSAR is so hard to say! Maybe some day you can have a real name!
Everyone was quiet for awhile, so I shut up 🙂 I’m here and have already done Christmas, so I’ll pretty much be up for several more hours checking back once in awhile (11:40P now here out West).
Merry Christmasssss!!!!!! 12midnight
I had to break down and refill my steam cleaner tank, so I’ll be around a while. My partner isn’t even getting home from work until 1am, so who knows we might both be tempted to open presents! Naw…. have a great day Maggie and JoCoSAR!!!!!!!!
[1097] lovely words… perfect! a privilege to read.
Merry, Merry!
Merry Christmas to all!
JoCoSAR thank you for bringing a lot of new insight here. I think you helped a lot of us understand how careful we should be interpreting the enormous amount of material about this case.
I also had a very nice mail today from Scott who is working closely with the family and I’ll post some positive developments he told me about after I confirm it’s OK with them to do that.
Folks it looks like the discussion is far from over so I will be moving things to a new page shortly.
I hope everybody has a fine Christmas Holiday. It has been a pleasure “meeting” so many people over the past few weeks.
Hey JoCoSAR… you still there? I’m tellin ya, it’s starting to feel pretty safe around this forum this time of night with a Deputy Sheriff around! 🙂
Thanks Joe! Merry Christmas to you!
Oooo… me have big mouth. Do we need to delete my comment Joe?
D.H. if you want I’ll delete any comment you made let me know … generally I won’t delete things unless the author of the comment asks me to delete.
1177 – Merry Christmas, Joe. Thank you again for this! If you get the OK to share, I think we’d all love to hear positive developments.
Thanks Maggie, Merry Christmas to you and yours!
IMPORTANT!
IMPORTANT!
We have passed 1000 comments on this page so I’m moving the discussion to a third comments page here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon-comments/#comments
IMPORTANT!
IMPORTANT!
IMPORTANT!
We have passed 1000 comments on this page so I’m moving the discussion to a third comments page here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon-comments/#comments
IMPORTANT!
Comment by joeduck | December 25, 2006 | Edit
PLEASE DO NOT leave more comments here or they might get deleted. Go to the NEW PAGE above to leave comments!
I was having trouble closing off the comments box without losing comments so it’s staying up for now.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
I’ve read many of your comments and, along with thousands of others, agonized over the Kim’s terrible misfortune. I want to suggest that, in James Kim’s name, we have the Exit 61 from Grant’s Pass and the Road 23 removed from any maps to be used by the traveling public. May husband and I made the same mistake as the Kim family made by taking a byway to the Oregon Coast. In mid-October of this year, we were returning home to Washington State and had no clue that 23 is no more than a one-laned, graveled, dangerous Forest Service and BLM logging roads (thats plural because the roads are in a labrinth fashion). We were not driving an off-road 4-wheel drive vehicle. It took us four-plus hours to drive sixty miles and was the most frightening trip we have every taken. We were lost in a maze of S-Curves, no signs, no guard rails and our cell phone wouldn’t work. I have vertigo and probably only looked down those cliffs three times. It was a nightmare. We finally passed, then backed up to a hard surfaced road on which someone had printed “COAST” and an arrow. We followed that road and eventually got out of that miserable situation. If someone out there would please explain to me how the BLM and Forest Service can put their logging roads on travel maps, I would really appreciate knowing this. For those who are trying to
place blame for James Kim’s death, how about starting at
the bottom line-the stupid maps!!! Also, Kati Kim was correct in saying there were NO signs. Thanks for listening. I needed to say this.
IMPORTANT!
We have passed 1000 comments on this page so I’m moving the discussion to a third comments page here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon-comments/#comments
IMPORTANT!
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