Kim Family Search Discussion page ONE | TWO | THREE | FOUR | FIVE
Please feel free to discuss the Governor’s report and the Kim Family search below in the comments.
Joe Duck
Have Blog. Will Travel. Vaccinate!
Kim Family Search Discussion page ONE | TWO | THREE | FOUR | FIVE
Please feel free to discuss the Governor’s report and the Kim Family search below in the comments.
Joe Duck 
This is KIM SEARCH DISCUSSION page SIX. The Governor’s report is expected to come out today (Friday) with a Press Conference at about Noon.
Thank you all. I only wanted to share this info to let everyone know why I’m not doing more actively as I’m so passionate about this as everyone seems to be so actively DOING something & I want to so much, but it’s hard to tell how things are going to be from one minute to the next and I don’t want to commit to doing something and then not be able to follow through and let everyone down.
994 – maggie ALL forms of MD are hard, period.
Paul, Gayle, Lisa, and to all others who have suffered tragic events – my deepest empathy goes out to each and everyone of you
Maybe this is what has drawn this particular group together and have ‘stuck’ together & why we all feel so passionately about this, as well as we all have wanted so much in our life to do something that would actually make a significant difference. I’ve thought a lot why this particular group has come together and stayed together. I ran into a similar group years ago when we first got on-line – anyone remember Prodigy? We stayed together until they shut Prodigy down. A group of them actually got together in the summer and had a blast. People traveled across country.
Regarding reasons for why some people pull away: there can be a thousand and one reasons and I agree it does help to try to understand the person’s reasons but some people are just plain selfish and mean spirited and unless everything is centered around them, then they have no use for those who can’t center around them.
I’ve tried checking into other forums, etc, and I just can’t stomach the hatefulness so I haven’t been involved in any for a blue million years and didn’t intend to get involved in this one, but I wanted correct info so much and felt so passionately about this. I think our country as a whole is tired of everyone passing the blame and want people to start taking responsibility for their own actions, which I think they should, but I also think this mind set has also caused a lot of people to forget how to be caring, understanding of humaness and compassionate.
Now that I have totally gotten off topic and given my ‘views’ I shall get back on topic. Maybe Joe needs to start another page just for us to general chit chat!!!
D.H. – be careful and keep an eye out on this person. Of course you know, they could post as one name here and another there. But from everyone’s post here, its hard to imagine that anyone here would do that, not saying there couldn’t be because we all are faceless people sitting behind a keyboard. I hope it’s not anyone from here. Remember how many hits Joe said this was getting, so it may just be a ‘lurker’ who doesn’t have the nerve to post here.
One of the things in the beginning of this, also, which made me start looking for more info was in poking around the internet for more correct info, I ran into a least have a dozen post here and there about people telling their tale of getting lost in this very same area, on Bear Camp road & I was horrified that this had been going on for so long and nothing had been done. Also, if I’m remembering correctly, at the beginning, some site had a video of a woman who had started up the other side of the mountain the same night the Kims did and ran into snow also. She tried turning around and couldn’t and ended up backing all the way down. She was horrified as she too had thought, from reading a map, that this was a viable shortcut and said had she left a bit earlier which would’ve put her further up the mountain when she ran into snow, that she could’ve so easily gotten her self in exactly the same situation as the Kims and that she had nothing in her car to help her or help her survive. And I have no idea where I saw that to direct anyone to or give a link.
The more I think after reading post here, the more I’m leaning towards just continue on as is, maybe, as someone earlier suggested give each report a number and then use that number when referring to each report. Or since the post are number, maybe A, B, C, etc.
Is going to be interesting tomorrow. Dutch Brothers better show up and for the weekend, Glen is going to have to show us all how to hang upside down and get little sleep and still be viable.
Here a some links I found, one to an article the rest should be to video. Not anything new, but one does show the pilot who found James, but is interesting to watch to refresh for the report due out today.
This is also where I found the video of the woman I referred to. I couldn’t remember the name of the road coming up the other side of the mountain, but if those who do, maybe you can go to the site and type in search and then look at the video links.
http://news.com.com/5208-1028_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=23276&messageID=208121&start=246
http://www.kgw.com/
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120506_news_bear_camp_road_.568427c4.html
http://www.kgw.com/blcS.sc
http://www.kgw.com/blcS.sc?search=Bear+Camp+Road&cat=multi
Often aviation accidents will have the same cause over and over, but it involves different persons and different locations. With a roadway it would seem it should take fewer incidents to result in a change being made. This seems even more true in a rural area where someone going out and posting a sign saying ‘coast’ won’t be a major enterprise involving dozens of governmental jurisdictions.
Cartography changes might take a little more effort but I’ve often felt that even if there is a map warning it may not be seen or heeded.
There was an upthread use of the term “geocoding-light” for the use of a mass of untrained people for GIS data collection. I am trying to find the reference I came across long ago for the jurisdiction that actually did use senior citizens, boy scout troops and youth offender groups to do a massive geocoding project. I am sure some politician will want only the highway department to post signs, but it sure seems that a simple ‘coast this way’ and ‘rugged terrain ahead–All vehicles should carry survival gear’ signs is a solution that a few Boy Scouts or a few retirees could manage.
Fools Gold,
yes, that was me, coining the “geocoding-light” I liked your idea and will, when I get my act together post our discussion to the suggestions page as well.
And its true, the simple cartography changes (like improving the warning text/color/line weight is truly….not hard or time consuming give or take the inevtiable few meetings they will have over a few changes) it sounds like they reprint the maps yearly or so anyway, it would just be a minor change for the next printing….even the color scheme would be a pretty easy change without doing a major overhaul. I think its a good map, that needs some fine-tuning and more thought applied to the forest areas and warnings. I did give it a “C” and not an “F” ! 🙂
Frances,
Well I love your first post for the day, sets things off very nicely I think. You wrote it very well and I agree with you most of the time, including today. I do agree also, that unfortunatley some people are too entirley selfish and narcisstic to be empathatic, and its just who they are, and they happen to be people in our own families and circle of friends at times. It’s interesting what you write about prodigy. I dont know anything about that group. Anyway, you should not feel bad at all for your lack of time to devote to this cause, the posting you do here is enough goodwill, and that does mean and do something.
And I think you hit on something interesting about passing blame. There certainly is a balance there, and I respect your opinion on that being a bit older than myself (wouldnt know, unless you had said so before!). I’ve noticed some people have a hard time seeing the reality of situations now and just want to always blame the victim (or someone)…seems this could be a backlash from a long time of focusing away from personal responsibility? I wouldn’t know but I have picked up on something like this and think it is interesting.
Well, lets see what today brings!
DH on page 3 post (335) you link yourself directly to djdee over on MT. I have gone over to MT and read the posts over there. Of course Pac is completely out of touch.
DH I think you need to let it rest. I myself am quite disturbed by your posts over on MT both in DIRECT support of Pac and your very negative comments about this blog and the people over here. I am not looking for a fight with you here but you brought this up.
For myself I will now always wonder how genuine your posts are here especially after you sent me a private email regarding your previous comments here and what you have written to Kati’s dad.
If I were you the last thing I would want is people going over there and reading your posts. I don’t think anyone is stalking anyone but I do think you have some explaining to do. If you really do support Pac then you should go and support him, if you don’t then stop acting like you do.
There are a lot of people here spending a lot of their own time trying to make something good out of something horrible we don’t need people involved in this process flip-flopping.
I can’t speak for everyone but I feel pretty confident that nobody here that wants to help wants another Pac-a-like pretending to be something else.
This is all I am going to say about this. As far as I am concerned DH the rest is in your court. As for anyone else if you want to get very annoyed go ahead over to MT and read what is being said about our efforts over here and not just by Pac.
There is a press release issued by RescueWiki in Florida but it seems to simply be a site with a good name and high hopes but no actual content or procedures page other than the normal ‘how to use Wiki’ stuff.
glenn,
well, I’ve been trying to pick my battles…
all I can say about that blog, is that what I did read (only about 2 pages worth) pac was in true form, and I found “passingthetime” person to be quite reasonable. And I have also found DH confusing but dont want to hurt her feelings anymore if she doesn’t mean to be, since I did once. For the record, I am not passingthetime….just mapper.
in fact, starting to feel weird that you all call me mapper instead of my real name.
Glenn, you have courage to bring this up. Allow me to now duck for cover.
For the record, I read every page of the MT. I agree with mapper. Pac.. his usual self. I will say this, at least he picks a side and sticks with it. DH, I am completely confused. Passingthetime seems to simply yet passionately be defending the kims.
Mapper, scooch over, Im ducking in there.
I could not find any article in todays Oregonian.
Kudos to Glenn for outing a most strange situation…Pac is Pac is Pac. D.H. – I confess I am utterly confused on your position, esp in light of your comments / apology to Kati’s dad in contrast to your seemingly being a twin of Pac over on M.T. – and, for the record, I never post over there as Paul or anyone else. I have NO desire to ever engage Pac-thetic again in this lifetime. Hey, I like that new name.
Paul – thanks, I looked too and didn’t see anything.
Glenn, Thank you for the info. It really saddens me to think what must happen in peoples lives to bring out such anger and comments. It also reminds us that under the anonymity of the web some posters can be less than honest and forthcoming. I had to catch my breath at the comments on MT, am saddened by the duplicity DH, and am ever so thankful for Joe’s blog here.
Thank you to all who have posted here with genuine open minds, concern and compassion. While I can’t participate to the level many of you are, I am catching up at least daily and appreciate this group and Joe’s special space.
Joe – I’m Sooo Confused 😕
This page is labeled the Governor’s Report – do we not have a general comments page anymore? Or, are you going to start a New Governor’s Report page once it is released??
9- Paul – Yes, I too was looking for the Oregonian article
and was unable to find it. I’m wondering if they have to
wait until after it’s officially made public/press
conference etc.?
14- Anyway, I pulled this quote from it:
“‘We are going to provide them with an after-action report that really is who knew what when and how they learned the information or how they received the information,’ said Evinger. ‘It’s about what went right and what they could have done better.'”
It’s from one of the outside Sheriff’s in charge of the
review.
Talk about diplomacy! Check out that last sentence!
I wonder how much deep and thorough this investigation will
really be. The fact that they’re taking another week may
be a good sign…
I am glad that we have raised all the questions we have
raised here, and that they have been looking at this blog.
14- typo
“I wonder how deep and thorough this investigation will
really be”
8 (and prior) – Mapper and Tara, please make room for me because I need to duck, too. I couldn’t stomach reading all of it, but what I did read was plenty. Pac is his usual self, and DH is just – well, as said above, confusing. I don’t remember how it is that I ran across Joe’s blog early on, but I’m glad. No worries about me posting there. Life is too short, and I’ve been spending most of it camped out right here because I think this is a good place.
12- Angela –
I believe this is the pre-Govenor’s report breakfast
roundtable general discussion!
Lisa – (17) Of course, How silly that I forgot that official meetings and discussions always have pre-discussions and roundtables!
Well, I just read a couple of pages over there and had to hold myself back. Pac is even worse than I thought, and definitley an abuser, he just is. And I can’t believe how others have followed suit. The passingthetime person is totally reasonable and they are just slamming her/him with insluts. I….really hope that person comes over here, at least pac was kind enough to supply her/him with the link. I can’t believe he is trying to make that person think they are crazy, and everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon…it is hard to read….yuck.
17/ Lisa, yes, ’tis…pass the Dutch Brothers please ?
🙂 I need to work on my typos/spelling
anyway, yes of course, the round table. I love this dignified blog. I feel like I just came back to the good neighborhood.
19- Mapper…don’t know if you read my discussion many,many pages ago about rural vs city, Portland vs rural Oregon, and hostility towards all things California in Oregon, but I think some of that is at play over on MT. I am not defending it, I am just saying it exists in this state and it is kind of sad.
The comical thing is, as far as I can tell, very few people on this post are from CA., only the Kims were.
20 – Did someone say Dutch Bros? At least I can stop waiting for it to be the 5th (well, and wait longer for the OSSA report). And it’s the weekend, so we can stay up into the wee hours to discuss – assuming that there is much substance to discuss.
Paul,
yes, it is kind of funny to me, as I have been accused of being a californian several times…I did live there 7 months out of my 29 years….so, that is probably too much as far as some are concerned! but I had compared this to how wisconsin people hate illinois people…I am now realizing it is so much worse! I also read about the hate war on the city-data message boards…..quite a lot of hate for the californians.
I’m not even going over there (MT) to look! I’ve seen enough here!
I really think there are deeper issues that fuel that
kind of hostility.
I think ‘passing the time’ is a very interesting name
choice!
I hope they feel that calm!
just ordered dutch bros. coffee…cant wait to try it!
26 – Go Tara! I do hope that it’s as good out of the bag as it is out of their little drive by hut. I’m sorry I can’t help myself whenever this comes up 😳
‘Hating’ other people is a cheap way – a quick fix that
‘haters’ use to try boost their own self-esteem.
‘I’m better than them.’, etc.
It’s a shallow and useless waste of time, and really
just makes the ‘haters’ more bitter or negative and
unhappy, because part of them knows how low it is.
Good morning everybody.
Welcome to the pre-game show?
Based on many comments and emails it was clear most people wanted to have ONE discussion going rather than separate discussions, so this is the place to discuss the report as well as continue our own discussion.
I think the report is due out at noon but I’m not finding info at the Governor’s website.
I’m sure I’ll be the next to order the coffee…I’m becoming more curious all the time.
come on mapper… give it try…. insert peer pressure here. 🙂
In an analogy type of comparison, if:
good self-esteem = good health
‘hating’ = junk food
I really think Dutch Bros should give me free coffee for life after all of this for all of the free advertising (and to RRR and JoCo, too, because they started it by first mentioning it and getting me all riled up).
I agree Maggie. I got all riled up about it too.
Or, better yet, Joe should get paid for advertisements and add their logo on his site…. that way, we could all just click on the logo and get our coffee quick and easy.
This briefly talks about the Sheriff’s report delay:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_010407_news_kim_report_delayed.aa51add.html
😀 Attention 😀
There are 3 different “reports” of interest coming up:
1) Oregon Governor’s Report on Kim Search comes out today about NOON.
2) Oregon State Sheriff’s report on Kim search, focusing mostly I think on the Josephine County SAR efforts. This has been delayed for at least a week.
3) Portland PD 35 page summary of the missing person casework (but not SAR efforts). I think we’ll have a copy of that online by Saturday or Sunday. This has been out for some time but many feel facts (e.g. Edge Wireless ping stuff) were misreported by media.
34 – Perfect, Tara! Even better if we could click the link and a latte just appears.
35 – Thanks for the link, Joe. It will be nice once we have all of each, won’t it?
You knows guys, I’m got posting anywhere for a few days, so this is the last for a while. I am not trying to be deceptive, just useful and honest. I don’t believe it’s necessary to be on one side or the other, whatever the “sides” are. Personally, at this point, I want nothing more than something positive to come out of all this. I have started a project to honestly assist SAR make some money, or get some equipment from corporate sources. Volunteer SAR needs helps. The truth is the real me is usually right there on the table. If Pac is a friend, so be it. Right now he’s certainly being nicer to me that anyone else on these boards. That doesn’t mean I agree with everything he says, or especially his delivery. If you really knew me, you would see that I am a loving mother, grandmother, and mother in law. A retired USAF patriot. A bit of a geek and a golfer. A person that tends to be kind to others. And that’s about all you’d really need to know. I have enjoyed much of my time here, and will continue to observe. I’m not sure what at this point it would have benefitted anyone or anything for me to participate further than I have anyway. Believe it or not… I now have a fondness for you all.
One of the things that has come to my attention is
how important it is for those whose jobs directly affect saving people’s lives to not become jaded or ‘burned-out’ at
work, or to feel a kind of numbing toughness that produces
a more cavalier, distanced, ‘I’ll get it done,’ approach.
I had noticed how before the search was narrowed to
Josephine county, the quotes involved official saying
things like, ‘that missing family,’ which almost makes
them sound like more distant ‘objects’. Then, after
they found Kati and the girls and were looking for James,
they said ‘we’re treating this as if we’re searching for
one of the members of our own family.’
I think that’s the right idea, I just think it would have
been helpful if they truly had that idea all along.
24 – Not wanting to offend any Oregonians, but when we spent a lot of time there with family and visiting some property we had there for some years, the scourge of having CA plates was palpable. We were seen as alien invaders coming to contaminate the state, I think, despite us being well behaved and following the rules. Obviously, most locals up there are gracious, warm people, and if otherwise, we wouldn’t be havng these discussions about the Kims now. But Californians have definitely been seen as interlopers for as long as I can recall.
As an aside, my kids (grown) still can’t get over other people pumping our gas at the OR service stations, as they are too young to remember full service stations here at home. Do they still do that, and if so, it would have been harder for the Kims to have slipped unnoticed into a gas station, possibly paying by cash.
And I thank many of you for taking the time to see what my comment last night was about. I did feel personally stalked, and I still have no idea what that other persons motivations are toward me. With someone like me, I will defend myself. But for now… it’s low profile Dee who would rather not develop high blood pressure. And where IS that Dutch Bros. anyway?
40 – Madeleine, yes we still can’t pump our own gas here. Wow, that’s a point I never even thought of until you mentioned it – wherever the Kim’s got gas, it would have been pumped for them.
re#2: Thanks Frances, you’re kind.
39- addition
I don’t mean to over-generalize – I don’t know how all
officials were feeling about searching for the Kims in
the beginning i.e. ‘another missing family,’ or ‘we’ve
got to find this missing family!’.
Most likely there were officials with all different
views. I just got those impressions from quotes I saw from some officials.
39 – Lisa, regarding LE or searchers getting “burned out”. It is hard for anyone in those positions not to become drawn into the case personally, but they have to walk a line where they are still able to operate rationally and not make decisions based upon more personal reasons. If not for the ability to detach when needed, nobody could survive those jobs. Think of seeing people you consider family missing, hurt or killed everyday, you would not be able to maintain for long. But I don’t think it meeans the are burned out or not giving their best, they are trying to be objective. I agree with you that the search seemed to take on anoter dimension after the rescue, but I think that was normal. And I do believe that it became a personalized effort for everyone involved.
I speak from experience on this, as my job has taken me into places I will never forget, dealing with people who do heinous things to people who didn’t deserve it. But you learn to compartmentalize to a point so it doesn’t take you down with it. And you turn your feelings into something positive to get the job done. Otherwise, you can’t help anybody.
45- I agree you have some very good points there. I just
don’t necessarily have as much confidence as you seem to
that all the officials necessarily cared as much as you think/hope they did all along.
I know you have to compartmentalize to some degree. I did
some advocacy work for abused children which included a
chain saw murder of a spouse.
I just think that it’s a real and present danger that
sometimes people can become so detached that they don’t
do as good of a job as they could.
46 – I have to chime in with this again. Maybe it’s my naive, optimistic and hopeful way that I am, but I really have seen or heard NOTHING that has convinced me that anyone actually did not care. Whatever issues there were, I still can’t believe that this was one of them. I could be wrong, but I just haven’t seen any evidence to suggest it.
Lisa, agreed, and I’ve run across people who say that no case has gotten to them as they are “always” detached. That tells me a lot about them, and they would not be the person I want on my case were I a family member. Nor would I want the other extreme.
What I would want is a consummate professional who can get the job done without being hampered by either a too-personal involvement or a complete lack of empathy. Another thing is that some of the best people I know and have worked with simply don’t come across well on TV!
46- This is the type of thing that can’t really be proved
with evidence, but that does not mean that it is not
an important issue, and aspect of this kind of work.
I’m not saying that I know this to be true. There were
just certain quotes that seemed to reflect certain
attitudes, and there also seemed to be a lack of speed,
efficiency, and dedication to handling some of the
important information and leads. It is a big issue in this
kind of work in general, and it’s possible that some of
those routine attitudes may have affected this case.
Just because something can’t be proven, doesn’t mean it
can’t or shouldn’t be mentioned or discussed.
49- Also, I’m not saying that I thought there was
anyone who didn’t care at all. It’s more about how much
caring there was, at different times, some of which could
have been critical to finding them sooner.
50- Just for an example, it seemed like there were various
reasons why clearing BLM 34-8-36 sooner slipped through
the cracks. But John James mentioned Friday how he thought it should be done. It turned out it didn’t get done until John Rachor did it on Monday.
Now again, I’m not saying that had to do with how much
caring there was. But when everyone seems to know how
common of a mistake it is to take BLM 34-8-36 at the
fork, it is still hard to figure out why that wasn’t
done sooner in a critical/emergency SAR situation. Even in a ‘courtesy clearing of roads’. It seems like a no-brainer.
Lisa, I agree that the checking of that road seemed like the obvious place to look, given what we know now and what was known early on. That’s why I am awaiting the details of the process which I hope will be included in the upcoming reports. I did a lot of criticizing of some of the principals in this case early on, but now will wait for the reports and any comments from them to see their side of what they did. There are so many aspects of any operation that are simply not made public at the time, but we should be seeing some of that info soon.
51- addition
It actually seems to me based upon what I have heard even from JoCoSAR that the fact that 34-8-36 was not cleared was more because there were some assumptions made that they probably weren’t on that road. Hopefully, we’ll get to
hear more of that explained.
52- I agree Madeleine! 🙂
48/Madeleine – the detached thing does not bother me so much…we don’t work in their worlds, and – as a human being, if you are dealing with difficult issues, if you are to surviv e in your profession, at some level you have to detach. I’m thinking of oncologists who deal with terminal cancer patients; SAR professionals whose subjects are often found deceased; homicide detectives, coroners, psychologists who specialize in deranged people…etc. If these people did not “detach” in some respects, they would lose their sanity AND their ability to do their jobs. I think Glenn could speak to this better than I as he has done SAR work in the past.
49 – Lisa, this is just my (not so) humble opinion on this. I promise, this is not aimed at you at all but at this tendency in general to suppose we know how much people care and how much it even really matters.
I agree that speculations about people caring can be mentioned or discussed, but just my personal opinion that it’s not really fair to assume we know what is in someone’s heart, especially when there are still so many facts not yet in. Way, way back on whatever page when this came up and people said that Brian Anderson and Sara Rubrecht “didn’t care” and that his tears on TV were either fake or for his own personal/political reasons I said then, too, that we do not know this and that it isn’t fair to assume – that’s just how I am about juding people’s insides. I’ve been called naive before for taking people at face value as I did with what I saw as sincerity in that press conference, but as we started to hear more from JoCoSAR, it started to seem as if maybe some folks had been judged prematurely on how much they cared or not – it’s fine, no impportant!, to look at what was done right, what was done wrong, what needs to be done in the future, but to me that is, in many ways, separate from what is supposedly in someone’s heart. Honestly, if I’m ever missing, I want someone to FIND me, and so as long as they are doing their job, I don’t really care how emotionally involved they are or are not. Madeleine nailed it, in my opinion – without a certain amount of detachment, most folks couldn’t make it through more than about one very sad case. Now clearly, if someone does make callous statements about missing people (and there is one of those, but I haven’t heard his side yet – maybe it was out of context?), then they are probably not the right person for the job.
Anything without proof *can* be discussed and speculations made – I just don’t always think it’s fair, and I don’t think it’s even remotely near as important as the ultimate actions taken/not taken, regardless of feelings. Ultimately, if someone is to be hung on something, let it be on their provable deeds, not on their improvable thoughts/feelings. Just my $0.02. This one gets me every time. Stepping off soap box. No offense intended, so I hope none is taken.
Is it Noon yet? 😉
(55) This touches on a subject that really varies from person to person. Detachment is critical to long-term existence in any “emergency” related services and longevity is key to experience and hopefully excellence.
However, empathy is as much of a skill for an emergency professional as it is an emotion or feeling. Empathy is an important part of the equation and emergency personnel need to excel at it however it doesn’t mean they need to be “emotionally” involved.
A fine line but an important one. When people get to close to a situation and emotions take over it doesn’t always mean you get the best decision process.
I believe I posted earlier about SAR needing to set operational tempo to get the upperhand in these situations. Good decisions and a level head are two requirements in achieving a sustainable edge.
For myself I was a “first responder” for emergency situations and any “SAR” related was mostly Search and Recovery – that is no emotion game and a game that is certainly no fun at all.
The bottom line with all of this. Emergency Services are made up of professionals who are real people, they are human, they have feelings and nightmares, they make mistakes and they are certainly NOT robots.
56- Maggie I’m not assuming anything, and I’m not hanging
anyone.
I’m not assuming I know what’s in someone’s heart.
It is fair to bring up this issue. It’s a very real
issue in this kind of work in general, and it’s possible
that it affected this case at certain points.
I’m not pointing fingers at individuals. I really just
wanted to mention that at times it seemed like these
issues could have affected the outcome of the case.
If you read what I said carefully and objectively, you’ll
see that I was generalizing, and not claiming to absolutely
know these things and indite people.
To me, the most important thing is that James Kim’s life
was lost, and it’s vital to understand all the potential
factors which may have contributed to that loss.
I would never not bring up such a potentially important
issue – just don’t take it wrong.
What I brought up was a grey area, and people seem to
being making it black and white – it’s not.
Maggie, good points, but I know there are many who feel like Lisa. And I also think that my using the word “detached” perhaps wasn’t the best choice. It sounds too cold and impersonal. I have always maintained that being “professional” can include having total empathy for victims, family members, patients, whatever the case may be. Part of being professional is to keep personal opinions to one’s self out of respect to family and others. Doesn’t always happen under duress, though, which may account for some unfortunate comments in this case.
It’s similar to how LE officers often exhibit a dark humor among themselves, as do medical examiners, doctors, funeral directors and others at times. It shouldln’t spill over to the public, for obvious reasons. LE gets in trouble all the time for some comment slipping out.
When the typed transmissions between LAPD officers in their vehicles became public some years ago during the Christopher Commission endeavors, there was some very damning stuff in there that was actually nothing at all, just stress relief between colleagues. Wrong place to do it, though, it came under scrutiny and caused all sorts of problems. And some of it was admittedly over the top.
are you guys reading the report? and Joe are you going to link it? I found something about it on Kgw.com
58 – Thank you, Lisa. I promise I’m not taking it wrong and did read carefully and objectively. You said you don’t have as much confidence that they did care, and I’m not so inclined without more information because it doesn’t seem entirely fair to me. I could be wrong. We just disagree – no harm in that. Different thoughts and ideas are part of what’s so interesting and great here.
As I said yesterday, the most important part is not
blaming individuals.
The most important part is understanding what happened
and why.
Some of the reasons why will undoubtedly only be known
to officials themselves, even after the reports are out.
As Paul said, sometimes the whole truth can only be found somewhere in the middle.
But motivation influences action. And it can be a big issue
in this kind of work.
I’ve said many times that I thought the SAR effort really
tried and did the best they knew at the time, but until
the search picked up, it “seemed” there were times when
the search was being performed just as a “duty” or “job”.
And that was very frustrating for me.
60 – Madeleine, exactly! I have plenty of “inside jokes” about (believe it or not) my mother’s illness, death, etc. that would not be funny or appropriate outside of the context of the exact situation at that time with those others who were under equal “duress,” for lack of a better term. Dark humor is an odd thing.
Click to access kimchrono.pdf
😀 Attention 😀
Thanks Tara – I thought it would be noon but here it is!
Click to access kimchrono.pdf
are you guys reading the report??
yeah I think it is. Im reading it….. its got alot of information
62- Thanks, Maggie.
It’s important to understand all the possiblity I was
allowing. I didn’t say that I didn’t “have as much
confidence that they did care.” I truly think EVERYONE
cared. It is more a matter of degrees of caring, at different points, and how that can affect an outcome.
This is what I said:
“I just don’t necessarily have as much confidence as you seem to that all the officials necessarily cared as much as you think/hope they did all along.”
It’s important not to ‘black and white’ it. I’m not a
‘black and white’ girl. Most of life happens in the
grey areas, and people try to call it black or white,
because it makes them feel more comfortable.
The truth is, life is really more complex and intricate
than most of our designations allow.
I really do think all the officials cared to some degree
all along.
Interesting that it is all timeline. I guess I expected some kind of commentary for some reason? I probably won’t get to completely delve into this until tonight.
Boy, am I GLAD my Dutch Bros. came before I checked in for the first time today… am sitting here gulping… score A!
Will be as short as possible off topic and them get back on topic…
I take everyone at ‘face’ value here, the face they put on themselves here. I’m not going over the the MT board as I think that’s where I went once just to check on the ‘flavor’ over there and couldn’t take much of it and came back here and posted how horrible I thought it was there and everyone was a follower of Pac. Immediately after that is when I recall seeing the first post from D.H.
basically giving a negative viewpoint of our views here referring to me as ‘bitter Frances’ even though I CLEARLY stated I had not read the whole forum/message board. And I seriously doubt at that time that D.H. had had enough time to sit and read from beginning to that current point when she posted her comments. Also, I trust Glen’s and other’s opinion as they have proven themselves to be open minded, level headed, objectionable, yet still understanding and empathic. D.H. attitude seemed to soften a bit as others attempted to try to explain to her what our general view & goal was.
D.H. – I do not know how I feel now, but if you have inticed someone against you, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Don’t be posting here looking for support if you have fanned the flames yourself. If you have not, then I repeat my caution to be careful. If you are posting one opinion there and another here, well, you are the one who has to face yourself in the mirror every day and I for one will be cautious of you.
I have to go now, but will check back in and read the report
Here’s a link to another article I found from the
Boston Globe. It put things a little differently than
other articles have, and it’s an interesting outside
perspective:
(But it doesn’t say anything absolutely new.)
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/01/03/oregon_to_review_its_search_process/
The other thing I just want to state here in general it is best to not to “read into” what I say. If you do that – you will undoubtedly go farther than what I mean, and you will go into your own interpretations.
I really write what I think, I don’t imply things. A lot
of times I think there are subtleties and other possibilities.
Odd, kgw.com no longer even shows the link on their home page. Anyway, katu.com has this article Governor’s Office press release to kind of go with the timeline:
http://www.katu.com/news/5101431.html
Maggie, you have e-mail (hopefully) at your website.
Sen. Feinstein calls for BLM Investigation of locked gate:
http://www.mailtribune.com/update/update.html#kim
Text from Sen. Feinstein website:
Washington, DC – U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)
today questioned Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne on the consistency of the safety protocols used by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The recent tragic death of California resident James Kim called attention to the inconsistency of the measures used by the BLM to manage and secure federal roads.
California resident James Kim perished over the Thanksgiving holiday trying to rescue his wife and two daughters. The Kim family’s vehicle had been stranded when it was trapped in a snow bank on a BLM road that was supposed to be closed to the public, but was not properly secured.
In a letter to Secretary Kempthorne, Senator Feinstein urged the Department to determine whether BLM protocols were followed, or if new procedures need to be put in place. Senator Feinstein is expected to be the new Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on the Interior and Related Agencies.
The following is the text of the letter sent to Secretary Kempthorne:
January 2, 2007
The Honorable Dirk Kempthorne
Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Dear Secretary Kempthorne:
I write regarding the tragedy that befell a constituent of mine, James Kim, and his family, over the Thanksgiving holiday. I hope you can shed some light on the particulars of this situation and what actions the Department has taken to prevent similar occurrences in the future.
I understand that BLM personnel participated in the search for the Kim family and I want to commend their efforts. However, I am disturbed by what appears to be a failure to follow instruction and a deviation from agency policy that contributed to cause this incident. It is my understanding that a BLM supervisor directed agency personnel to lock the closure gate on BLM Road #34-8-36, but that direction was not followed, nor was the supervisor informed that the gate was not locked. It was also reported in the media that a non-Bureau combination lock had been placed on the gate to keep it open.
This appears to be the third incident of unintentional entry involving this road in 2006. I would appreciate your direct involvement in determining whether BLM protocols were followed, or if new procedures need to be put in place. I would like a number of specific questions answered:
* Did BLM personnel disregard instruction to lock the closure gate to Road #34-8-36?
* Does BLM or the Josephine County Sheriff patrol the gate to Road #34-8-36 when it is supposed to be closed? How frequently?
* Was there a non-Bureau lock on the gate to keep it open?
* Was there adequate signage to deter accidental public access?
Thank you for your personal attention to this matter. I look forward to your involvement and response.
Best Personal Regards,
Sincerely,
Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator
Was it ever determined if CNN’s footage of a cut lock lying next to the gate was for real? An old cut lock? A throwdown cut lock? Just curious, I know we discussed it but don’t recall if CNN ever explained or reiterated that it was found that way.
I emailed CNN and asked for an explaination and cited the news reports that claimed there was no lock… and ones that claimed it wasnt a BLM lock… I asked for follow up on that, or an email. still no word back.
Oh, I sent the email WEEKS ago.
Reading through the timeline it occurred to me to try to imagine being Kati with 2 small children all alone after James left to find help and did not return, for two long nights and nearly 3 days in the wilderness… all alone with the children! In a car with no gas, no tires, no heat and probably no light any longer, to say nothing of no food, water or other basic needs. And no James. If nothing else I would like to hear how she managed to get through those two nights.
Thanks, Tara. I wonder who else would have been putting non-BLM locks up there, if indeed that lock was ever on the gate (or even there before the media arrived)? Too bad they couldn’t pull prints from the lock to see who handled it, not much chance of that, though.
I’m sorry, but I always distrust politicians jumping on bandwagons, so wish Senator Feinstein had waited for all the currently scheduled reports before asking for yet another investigation. I know the locked gate is an important issue, but still….
There remains the issue of local access for people with legitimate reasons to get up there, as I understand it, and I hate to see that access permanently impacted until all things are considered.
Madeleine RE: BLM lock vandalized report. I heard, I think local news, that the a lock was damaged when the tow truck picked up the Kim’s car but it was not the official BLM lock and had been put up to keep the gate *open*.
82 – Gayle, those two nights alone have haunted my mind many times as well. How incredibly terrifying.
79 – Madeleine, got it! I’ll respond this evening with a little story 🙂
Madeline, I think there will only be one “investigation” by BLM into the gate and signage issue, which is already underway if some of the email responses to (maggie or others on this blog are correct). The answer to the Senator in about four weeks or so, will just come from that review.
The Senate is in session. The Senator’s questions are so targeted to that one gate which is certainly OK, but it doesn’t mention problems that may exist across the BLM inventory. Well this is just the first of many letters I am sure that Dept of Interior has received on these issues.
I think it’s good that Senator Feinstein is stepping up.
That will definitely put more pressure on the BLM than
we could ourselves. And there may (or may not!) have been
requests from Kim family and friends for her to do so.
I think it will be hard to keep the gate locked. But she
also asked if there was adequate signage! And as we know,
there is not! So the more pressure, the better, to get it
done. 🙂
I also want to say for the record – that I do know that
high intensity public work – like law enforcement and social/medical work, can be extremely difficult and
taxing, and is truly honorable and commendable work.
I think they deserve really good benefits and need time
to rejuventate themselves.
I did not mean to sound overly-critical or unfair.
I was just trying to point out how sometimes relative
degrees of ‘burnout’ can be an issue than can affect
cases.
😀 Attention 😀
You can use “GR” for the Governor’s report and everybody who read THIS note will know what you mean!
I thought the Govs report would clear up many things but I’m still very confused and frustrated that the key elements about “why you made that decision” are absent. This is probably going to lead to more, not less, finger pointing at individuals which should not be the focus here.
The big question for me:
Why, in a world where instant communications via the internet/email/blogs/IM chat are freely and easily available even in most remote areas, do you need so many hours to get highly relevant information to key stakeholders?
The questions that jumped out at me from the GR were these:
* Why did OSP report that Sara at Josephine County said all the Bear Camp spur roads were searched? I think this must have been a misunderstanding – there are several hundred miles of spur roads up there, and everybody involved would have known that all those roads could not have been covered except by a careful helicopter road by road search and there is no indication that was done.
* Why did the family want to focus the search on the Coast? The Curry Co. Supervisor’s Office suggested the Bear Camp route on December 1 to officials.
* The role of Carson Helicopters in all this is very important. It appears to me that the dialog of James’ dad and sister with Carson, which probably will never be known, would shed a lot of light on why so much of the search time was spent looking in the wrong areas. One very odd thing was the mention in the report of Mapquest sending them along an “impassable” Highway 38. I’m pretty sure this was a misunderstanding at the time confusing 38 with Bear Camp, and I’m wondering how much confusion that would have caused.
I have just started dissecting the Governor’s Report and this sequence of events jumped out at me:
01 1000 DEC 2006 – Oregon Emergency Response System – Call taken from Dennis Dinsmore, Curry County [Sheriff].
Incident description:
Curry County [Sheriffs Office] is requesting air assist in looking for overdue family that left Portland en route to California. It’s believed that they took a road out of Grants Pass to Gold Beach. GR at 3 (my bolding).
By 10:50 a.m., the Oregon National Guard knew that the “Search area is somewhere between the towns of Galice and Agness northeast of Gold Beach near the southern Oregon coast.” GR at 3.
This caught my attention immediately – as early as Friday morning, Curry County believed that the Kim family was lost between Grant’s Pass and Gold Beach.
The National Guard was preparing to launch a search in this area, Gr at 4, and recognized the need to “Have people that can ride in helicopter that know the roads,” GR at 3. The weather in the search area was “clear and blue skies.” GR at 3,4. So before Noon, the Oregon National Guard selected a helicopter, assigned the mission to a National Guard officer, and was preparing to launch. GR at 4.
Now, this seems like a plan that was destined for success. But shortly before Noon, the National Guard search is abruptly put on hold:
01 1151 DEC 2006 – Oregon Army National Guard Aviation
– Called Curry County Sheriff’s Department, LT Dinsmore, 541-247-3242, to inform him that we were notified of a civilian helicopter agency [Carson Helicopters of Grants Pass] has been contracted to assist in the search.
– The sheriff indicated that the Father is extremely wealthy. Been trying to get helicopters to assist in search. The father is taking a private jet coming into Medford and the sister is taking a private jet into Gold Beach. GR at 5.
However, the Curry County Sheriff still wanted the National Guard:
01 1222 DEC 2006 – Oregon Army National Guard Aviation
– Curry County Sheriff’s Department, LT Dinsmore, called. He wanted to know if we would launch a helicopter if he could ground all civilian aircraft in the area.
. . .
– Called COL Greenwood to update him on the situation
– Said we can’t interfere w/ civilian agencies
. . .
– Family contracted Carson Helicopters
– 3 a/c airborne for search mission en route to Curry County GR at 6.
And then comes this interesting detail:
1 a/c working Grants Pass to Gold Beach over Bear Camp Road
– 2nd a/c en route to Newport to work south along coast
– 3rd a/c working Roseburg to N. Bend
. . .
– Family strongly feels they are along highway 101. Family wants Carson to concentrate along 101. GR at 7.
So there’s what I get out of this part of the timeline: By 9 a.m. on Friday morning, December 1, Curry County believed that the Kim Family was lost between Galice and Agness, and by Noon the Oregon National Guard was prepared to send helicopters, trained search teams, and employing people “that know the roads.” GR at 3, into that very area.
And then this National Guard operation is put on hold by James Kim’s own Father, Mr. Spencer Kim (preceded,as has been reported, by his lawyer). Mr. Kim proceeded to disregard allOregon efforts and launch his own search, and even presumed to direct the search area, although he presumably had no particular knowledge of Southern Oregon mountains.
By taking these actions and making these decisions, it appears that Mr. Spencer Kim may well have sabotaged a National Guard operation that might well have found his Family on Friday afternoon.
Wouldn’t it be sad if the helicopter that the Kim Family heard on Friday afternoon was a lone Carson pilot doing a quick fly-over of Bear Creek Road while rushing to comply with Mr. Spencer Kim’s directions.
87 – Barnadad, thanks, I understand the need for putting pressure to get things done. I’ve just had bad luck with some politicians who champion a cause that is a hot button item, then don’t follow up later when funds are needed or other issues come up. Nothing personal toward DF.
88 – Lisa, I of course didn’t take your comments for anything other than the best of intentions with respect for people who do these jobs. You were stating how some comments struck you, and that is perfectly OK! Your thoughtfulness has been apparent throughout these discussions.
90 – Brenda, that jumped out at me, as well. It sounds as though Mr Kim’s search impeded the SAR and possibly contributed to delays in locating the family. How sad.
82/Gayle – so well put, and I am all but certain it was reported previously that the car battery was long gone, so yes, they had no light either. 2 terrifying nights after having already spent seven ? A worse nightmare I cannot imagine.
Turf battle?
Sorry. Blame the family is bad enough but blame the family’s lawyer? Is that supposed to be one step better?
Helicopters can coordinate their search patterns. What do you think happens when fire, police and three TV news stations all have helicopters in Los Angeles at the scene of some event?
Also, it seems that the National Guard helicopter was tasked for an area rather distant from the coastal area the family-hired helicopters were to search, so don’t blame this on the family’s lawyer: what did that National Guard helicopter pilot want: all civil aircraft west of the Missippi grounded for his benefit?
If there was a discrepancy in the search areas better procedure would be to describe the search areas, give a brief statement of the reasons… and come to a decision as to the most likely area.
90/Brenda: If you’re interpretation of that information is correct, that is sad and pathetic indeed. I would hope that there are laws that allow govt agencies to conduct searches unimpeded by overt pressure from the families involved. Great wealth and power has often been at odds with great common sense – though well intentioned his efforts surely were.
90-
It is interesting to contrast that, to this:
(From the SF Chronicle article about the search which
has not been disputed)
[Friday afternoon]
“With no searchers having driven about 30 miles of Bear Camp Road, Dinsmore called for a helicopter from the state Office of Emergency Management. A Blackhawk military helicopter was dispatched from Salem.
‘That took a while,” Dinsmore said. ‘Sara and I determined we were going to clear the road by air. There are stretches of road where there’s heavy tree cover and it’s hard to see from the air. Sara indicated they would have a Sno-Cat clear the entire length.’
The helicopter went up late Friday afternoon, came back to Gold Beach at 5:30 p.m. to refuel and searched again until midnight. There was no sign of the Kims. Eventually, Dinsmore believed, Sno-Cat vehicles were able to make it through the entire road.
‘We had cleared Bear Camp,” Dinsmore said. “We cleared it as far as people could travel in wheeled vehicles and then with helicopter flyover into the nighttime hours.'”
Joe, thanks for posting. I drafted questions on the GR timeline as well. Two overlap your first and third above.
My other question is on the “leisurely” pace of dealing with the cell phone maps on Sunday – meet at 0800, call the cell expert at 1100, plan to search somewhere in the afternoon. I think Kim was alive all day Sunday. SAR HQ’s got notice of the ping Saturday night. I thought SAR HQs works 24/7 during a search even if daylight is needed for ground assets.
Your point on air assets is very troubling in light of this fact (which in retrospect may have been the perfect SWAG) that the Oregon National Guard identified the likely search box on day one of the search on Friday, Dec 1st at 1050:
“Search area is somewhere between the towns of Galice and
Agness northeast of Gold Beach near the southern Oregon
coast.”
So Oregon Nat Guard flies a two hour plus mission on Friday and is not used again until late Monday afternoon when its FLIR goes up. Is this because of the reliance on three Carson Helicopters? Also the Oregon NG Friday mission is delayed by a couple of hours because the Carson helos are in the area- OK that I understand.
But over the weekend, can’t four helicopters search adjacent sectors of airspace if someone draws the quadrants in the first place? Who is responsible for “getting a handle on the air mission”? The private helo pilot didn’t have an issue with this- so the FAA Air Traffic Control didn’t seem to be an issue. (I am not a pilot). But it sounds like the NG sat on the ground awaiting a call for 72 hours. I have no problem with them sitting, but why no liasion member at the SAR HQ that is trained to employ available assets.
This is a point for clearing up on future searches. Thanks again Joe.
Paul, I was thinking the same thing. Where I live, we have skies full of craft at any given emergency, the traffic/news helicopters alone manage to take up a great deal of airspace. I don’t get the Guard wanting all civilian craft down before venturing forth, unless there were dozens of small craft out for a looksee. It would, though, be a bit tricky having simultaneous search ops going on in the same area by different entities not communicating with each other, that part I can understand.
I am curious about Mr. Kim’s strong thought that they had met with problems when already at the Coast, wonder how he drew that conclusion?
Turf battle…
Is there any specific information as to who scrubbed the planned National Guard mission or just that the NG pilot was pissed that he would not be alone up there and he would not be the one calling the shots so he took his marbles and went home?
I guess one of the questions is, if the National Guard
helicopters had searched more, would they have done more
than just cleared Bear Camp?
It is easy to assume that they might have, but the
Blackhawk helicopter did not search local roads, and
that effort was directed by local Sheriff personnel,
from two counties.
It was late at night by the time clearing Bear Camp
was completed, but adjacent roads were not cleared the
next day, Saturday.
I wonder why?
I don’t think Mr. Kim interfered with the search by sending only one helo into the Bear Camp area. Surely he wouldn’t have thought he had exclusive access to the three areas he was searching that precluded the NG from flying? Did I miss something that indicates he demanded excluive rights to search these areas? I thought his lawyer notified the agencies of their intentions, which was proper.
[82] .. I have often thought about Kati’s situation that time too. To be alone in such dire circumstances would be awful enough, but to be there as she was with her precious, helpless little ones in such apparent hopeless circumstances boggles my mind.
102- It will be interesting to hear her story, but I think
in such circumstances you often find your greatest strength,
and just like James did, you give everything you have to
try and make the situation better.
90 – Brenda, thank you for laying that out as you have. I haven’t had the time to realy dig through the timeline with as much attention as I will this weekend, but just in scanning it over, the same thoughts occurred to me as well as something I wanted to look at more carefully when I re-read. It’s concerning and saddening.
Just a couple other things I noticed:
GP page 12 – Sounds like Wilsonville Visitor Center provided “scenic” routes not on the map?? Interesting. I wonder what those routes were. Of course, there’s still the whole thing about Kati saying they hadn’t gone there, but that struck me.
GP page 14 – As Joe mentioned, it seems really odd to me this whole idea that Sara Rubrecht reported Bear Camp and all spur roads searched. Wouldn’t most know that it simply wouldn’t be possible considering how many miles of those there are? Just struck me oddly.
GP page 19 – As part of the description of James, presumably by Kati (?) “not an outdoorsman.” Nope, just an everyday kind of guy who found himself in this situation. I’ve heard descriptions of James that gave me the impression he was fairly savvy about the outdoors, but that doesn’t make him a survival expert, so the idea that they did as well as they did for as long as they did seems that much more remarkable to me after that comment.
GP page 23 – I’ll be interested to hear more about the “technical communication difficulties”
Anyway, those are the things that jumped at me on first glance.
Since people always seem to like suggestings for searching through information, even in .pdf (Acrobat Reader) files such as this one, there is a binoculars icon near the top, and if you click it, you can do a search.
You can also save this file to your computer if you’d like by clicking on the toolbar – makes it handy in case you’d like to review it while not online.
Re: GR 5:51pm
phrase “last cell phone use” seems to have been attributed to a tower in Salem, a tower in Eugene and also a tower in Glendale(?) partly because “last cell phone use” is an ambiguous phrase being sometimes used to indicate ‘last known cell phone use prior to their disappearance’ and ‘last use of their cell phone during their disappearance’. ‘last known cell phone use’ might have been better terminology: atleast that would have alerted people to the fact that it is a value that might change during the investigation.
104 – OK, the mind is broken today. Please imagine that every time I typed “GP” above that I actually typed “GR.” I don’t know what “GP” would even stand for.. 😳
105- Fool’s Gold
Can I just ask? You stike me as someone who might have
known James. It’s up to you of course, whether you want
to address this question or not.
Pale Yellow Band phenomena?
At autopsy a pathologist never dictates ‘gold wedding band’. A woman in a singles bar would take one glance at the ring and say ‘wedding band’ but at work might record it as ‘pale yellow band on third finger’ or something like that since she does know that it is gold and does not know that it is a wedding ring.
I think the same thing may have happened with the Fuqua Cell Phone Ping Data: it is described as being attributed to a tower with a 26 mile signal range but the added work of the engineer made it more precise by overlaying ‘unobstructed line of sight areas’ and also overlaying ‘known roads’ as well as ‘known roads with a SAR history to them’. This made the “PING” info more useful but that tagline about 26 miles has a way of destroying the information’s value in the minds of SAR personnel.
106/Maggie: Girl Power ?? 🙂
Sent you mail this a.m.
107,105,Fools Gold as fool.
No. Never met him. I’m sure most of the searchers never met him or, like me, never even heard of him prior to the search efforts. Not really relevant though.
Note: Upthread there was a reference to ‘scenic routes’. This is actually good thinking. Often people who are tourists have sudden impulses to take a scenic route or see some ‘touristy stuff’. Even local yokels might detour to show an out of town visitor some touristy site. It is a good thing to bear in mind from time to time that trying to figure out someone’s route selection often means making less than optimal choices simply because that is what a lot of people routinely do. Tourists do not have the local knowledge that SAR people often expect everybody to have.
It would be really interesting to hear more from OSP
Lt. Brian Powers. I wish he would discuss some of the
issues here.
110- Fools Gold are you saying you’re SAR – I don’t
remember – what’s relevant is relative to individual
perception.
Here’s a confusing detail:
01 1429 DEC 2006 SGT Nam – Oregon Army National Guard Joint Emergency perations Center
– CPT Houston called. Said they are launching the helo now. They’ll be flying between Solis and Agnes, OR and then to Gold Beach. They shouldn’t be down there for long due to low light and bad weather conditions. GR at 9.
I can’t find Solis on my map, my map program can’t find it, and USPS has no Post Office there. Does anyone know where Solis, Oregon, is?
The National Guard helicopter left Salem at at 2:30 p.m., overflew “Solis” and Agness, and was on the ground at Gold Beach by 4:50 p.m., so this helicopter was in the air approximately for 160 minutes. It is around 175 miles from Salem to Agness (WITHOUT the Solis detour) and around 20 miles from Agness to Gold Beach. So the NG helicopter flew 195 miles in 160 minutes.
Although the NG pilot undoubtedly moved with all deliberate speed and spent as much time over the search area as possible (assuming that the Galice-Agness area was still the target area as it had been earlier that day), this doesn’t leave a lot of time for a detailed search.
I continue to believe that if trained National Guard crew had not been prevented from conducting a military-style in the area specified by the Curry County Sheriff on a day with “clear and blue skies,” GR at 4, for two additional hours, the outcome of this sad episode might have been different.
Very good points all the way through, Fools Gold.
It is good to think of scenic routes when searching, but I was curious about this info that Wilsonville Visitor Center worker “provided the Kim family with an Oregon map and gave them scenic routes not on map” (GR page 12) and then similarly says “provided the Kim family with several routes between Myrtle Creek and Grants Pass over the mountain to Gold Beach that were highlighted” (GR page 13). It is great that this was recreated and given to officials (assuming that the Kim’s did go there – still puzzling, that discrepancy). I’m just really curious what routes they highlighted “over the mountain.”
113- But who would have been directing them locally, and
would it have been any different?
(113) Perhaps “Solis” is a mistake for “Galice” (since Agness is spelled Agnes in the same sentence).
i JUST read the report. I had the same thoughts as Brenda. I am wondering why they would not search just because civilians were in the way. They should have searched anyways. That is a big issue in this report.
116 – Ellen, that makes so much sense! This report was taken “as is” without corrections, so that might be. Sounds the same and would make sense.
I have a lot of catching up to do…
119 – better get scootin’ Glenn! 😉 I’ve been waiting to hear your take on this.
I was wondering where you were, glenn. I was just going
to write, ‘Where’s glenn – eating dinner?’
89- Joe I very much agree with your post! Now we have
this timeline, and there are just more burning questions. 🙂
Actually my wife had vehicle trouble today so we were tied up all day. But all is good now. I need to spend some time with the kids but I am going to go through all of this soon.
Does anyone know the “sources” for the GR? Was it from direct “testimoney”, interviews with people are transcribed from other reports including the dailys during the search and/or JoCo’s investigation. Maybe Brian Anderson would be so kind as to respond to that.
Did anyone see the article today from the Oregonian?
Glenn, it almost sounds like it’s just a collection of notes from the reporting agencies:
“Listing reflects details from Oregon Emergency Management, Oregon Emergency
Response System, Oregon State Police, Oregon Military Department, and the Office of
the Governor.
No changes have been made to the state agency chronological listing of events as
submitted, to include spelling or grammar, just formatting changes and transfer to this
master document.”
GR pgs 5 – 8
Delay of launching National Guard Helicopter. I’ve had to read these pages a couple of times. It is NOT the pilot that delayed the launch – it appears to be through chain of command. All they knew at National Guard Aviation is that 3 private helicopters were searching.
My guess is that standard operating procedure is during a search to verify who is going to be searching where. I don’t want to jump to the conclusion that National Guard was refusing to participate – it is entirely possible that they were waiting for an official Air Coordinator Sadly, I suspect no one was used to having three civilian air craft and just did not have a process in place to immediately implement this coordination. I suspect safety of all concerned was the issue.
SOLIS – GR pg 9. This is just my wild guess; however I’m wondering if this is a misspelling of Galice?? Notice later how very different the spellings of Sara’s name – it seems to get worse and worse. So, based upon that we know that spelling is not verified; and could Easily add to miscommunication. Definitely doesn’t bolster a lot of confidence if that is the case, however communication with the pilot likely was much clearer than the possible misspelling of Galice. Again – this is just my guess after wading through the entire chronology twice.
(72) Frances I am sorry you had to read the comments from djdee on MT especially after reading your warm post to her even this AM. I am sure you are as disappointed as I am and others here.
(124) That is a very important point. Based on a cursory look at the posts here it sounds like we definitely need to get more first hand response.
Personally I think JoCo should lift the ban on the SAR people and others to come and speak freely here at this point. There is some damning information here and it is at best 2nd, 3rd hand. They deserve a right to speak for themselves. I really wish this would happen. It would save everybody a lot of hassle, time and energy – not to mention anger all over the place.
I am disappointed that the GR wasn’t more a result of direct interviews, etc. Sounds like the Governor’s office is going to need some type of thorough follow up – maybe that is why JoCo created an additional investigation.
Again we need to tread softly until we can get some direct answers.
Madeline 91 agree with you on the politicians.
Fools Gold– on your 99, which mission?
Fools Gold– Also on your 108, I agree. I have just thought the cell phone ping was the missing key to narrowing the whole search considerably and immediately, but about two pages ago, JoCoSAR replied to my question by saying the cell phone map identified 57 sites or so in pink across several counties, so the search box stayed very big. Well, I still don’t know about that.
Seems to me you plot the intersections with roads or spurs and send out four choppers at first light Sunday morning. Each flies to one fourth of the 57 or more (if multiple) intersections in an assigned quadrant. But again, easy to say, hard to do.
BH– good comments too.
post (125) addition:
I do know that air searches often involve a grid system. Also search aircraft often make methodical but sharp turns – it is always critical that all aircraft stay within their assigned grid in these cases. Air control is key. I’m thinking that at the beginning they wondered if all three might be over bear camp road – they just didn’t have the information and had to wait for Coordination. It is incredibly sad that such good intentions as getting as many eyes in the air as possible actually delayed getting the local SAR in the air. Of course that wasn’t the intention, and at this point who knows if it would have made any diffence – of course it was during the critical time that the tires were burning so one does have to wonder.
(129) typically ALL searches follow a grid pattern or predefined search spectrum depending on “local” factors (geography, weather, etc) unless there is something that focuses the search.
Fool’s Gold at 94 said: Turf battle?
as the Governors Report said, the National Guard could not fly while private aircraft was in the area. GR at 6. You did read my post before replying, didn’t you?
Sorry. Blame the family is bad enough but blame the family’s lawyer? Is that supposed to be one step better?
It was reported that Spencer Kim’s lawyer was involved in the SAR effort before Mr. Kim flew in. As you might know, rich people hire very good attorneys. In the Governors Repoirt, the Curry County Sheriff acknowledges that he is aware of Mr. Spencer Kim’s wealth and that he is aware of and opposes Mr. Kim’s private (and unsuccessful) SAR effort.
Are you claiming that neither Mr. Kim nor his attorney influenced the search opewratio0n on or before Friday, December 1? If so, why?
Helicopters can coordinate their search patterns. What do you think happens when fire, police and three TV news stations all have helicopters in Los Angeles at the scene of some event?
I think that these things are really neat, but that none of these things were a factor on that sunny Friday and are completely beside the point.
Also, it seems that the National Guard helicopter was tasked for an area rather distant from the coastal area the family-hired helicopters were to search, so don’t blame this on the family’s lawyer: what did that National Guard helicopter pilot want: all civil aircraft west of the Missippi grounded for his benefit?
Please read page 9 of the Governor’s Report and get back to me on this. BTW, you need to add two more s’s and one more i.
If there was a discrepancy in the search areas better procedure would be to describe the search areas, give a brief statement of the reasons… and come to a decision as to the most likely area.
Yes, that would have been nice. In fact, that is exactly what the Curry County Sheriff did for the Oregon National Guard. Because, at least according to the Governors Report that you rather obviously have not read, the CuCoSheriff asked them to search the area between Galice and Agness. And, not to belabor an obvious point, that target area is exactly the area where the Kim Family was stranded on the afternoon that James Kim burned the first tire.
My logic tells me that a military-style search over this area might have either discovered the Kim Family or discovered evidence that might have led to their rescue. What does your logic tell you?
Again, please read the Governors Report. I am.
Personally I feel uncomfortable that oftentimes when it
comes up there seems to be such a big deal about Mr.Kim’s
wealth. It almost sounds like people are jealous or
resentful of it. I don’t know if this is true, but it sure
comes up a lot.
131- I don’t understand why the National Guard was grounded
in terms of searching the Bear Camp and local roads, it
seem that it was such a different area than where the
Kim’s wanted the Carson helicopters to search. Why couldn’t
both efforts be made?
(132) A person in his position will utilize their resources under their control – it is natural for someone to do that.
If any of us had a large amount of wealth and had a family member go missing we would do everything we could to save them – maybe except for Pac.
Ross Perot established the benchmark decades ago – he rescued his own employees on foreign soil when US resource couldn’t.
Not sure how the money plays out in people’s opinions. Seems strange to me that NG Chopper Jocks wouldn’t fly.
About this being just the timeline, it sounds like this is intended to be only one piece of the whole:
http://www.katu.com/news/5101431.html
“This is a press release courtesy of the Governor’s Office
Today the Oregon Office of Emergency Management delivered a report to Governor Kulongoski outlining the facts and timelines surrounding the efforts undertaken by state agencies to assist in the search for the Kim family last month in Southwest Oregon.
The Governor called for this report on December 22, 2006 and charged the Office of Emergency Management to lead the compilation of a chronology of steps taken by the primary state agencies participating in the search, which included the Office of Emergency Management, the Oregon National Guard and the Oregon State Police. The chronological report includes information from these three state agencies from November 30 through December 7, 2006 relating to their efforts assisting the local responders in the areas of public affairs, investigation, search and coordination with public and private entities.
“This report provides the first round of facts relating to the state’s support of the local search effort for the Kim family last month, which is necessary in order to move forward with a broader assessment of search and rescue in Oregon,” the Governor said.
The report delivered to the Governor today is not an account of official actions taken by various Sheriff’s offices, local police departments, private agencies, or individual citizens during the Kim search. The Oregon State Sheriffs’ Association is still in the process of compiling information from the numerous local agencies and private individuals involved in this search, as requested by officials in Josephine County. It must be understood that the timeline released today is only one component of the facts of the entire search and bigger picture. It is likely that the report that is forthcoming from the Sheriffs’ Association will fill in many areas in this timeline.
“After we have all of the facts from both the state and local levels, I will convene a task force of federal, state, local and private sector partners to review this information and our approach to search and rescue efforts,” the Governor continued. “I appreciate the extensive time and efforts undertaken during this search, and my goal for the task force is to identify ways to strengthen our coordination and communication in the future in order to adequately ensure the safety of Oregonians and our visitors.”
The Governor will appoint his taskforce following the completion of the Sheriffs’ report.”
[GR] “2-02-06 – Oregon State Police
9:05 pm OSP Lt. Brian Powers spoke with Josephine County Search and Rescue Coordinator Sara Rubrecht and was informed that Bear Camp Road and all of the spur roads had been searched….Rubrecht stated that she had been told that Curry County had ended their search on 12/01/2006 and Josephine County planned to end their search also…”
>>> all of the spur roads had been searched
Lisa 133 – the GR pgs 5 indicate that the launch was delayed (not grounded) as the National Guard received information that their were 3 private helicopters involved in the search. This delay started at 11:25 Friday morning and apparently lasted until lauch authorization at 3:10. It wasn’t until 12:26 that there was any disclosure that the three helicopters would be searching the three different areas. I can certainly understand the initial delay, though I’m not sure about waiting until after 3:00 for final authorization.
134- Yes, I think it’s true, if anyone had those resources
and was in the same position – I think they would try to
do everything they could. I just don’t think it should be
an issue – it just enabled him to hire helicopters to
help search for his son.
132- It is only relevant – IMO – if his affluence and connections impeded the search. People with financial clout have that capability, however, it is a double-edged sword, used judiciously it can HELP SAR enormously. It is too early at this point to say which, if either, occurred.
139- To me it sounds like feathers and potentially egos
were ruffled – and who knows how that may have affected
the search. I think good coordination from command with the National Guard should have been able to coordinate the different elements effectively and well. It seems to me, that the more resources there are – the better, and this could have been worked out more efficiently.
Maggie 135 RE: this is a part of the whole is very important. I thought this would be more detailed, but it sounds like the Sheriff’s report is the one that’ll be comprehensive.
128 Cell phone maps.
It may be a matter of precision and confidence.
A signals engineer would start off with the 26 miles but it seems that the “overlays” add a measure of uncertainty and ‘probable areas’ and the SAR personnel may be unnecessarily and certainly unwisely clinging to the ’26 miles’ and mentally downgrading the value of the information because the overlays provide a more specific location but do so with an unknown ‘confidence level’ that is utterly unfamiliar to SAR personnel. Looking back it sounds not only reasonable but clearly critical and highly valuable information. I can just see a political cartoonist showing two people looking at the same cell map: one walks in circles muttering 26 miles to himself, the other says ‘right here, I think’. Same information. Two divergent assessments of it.
[133] …helicopter dual private / public searches
Public sector officials would rather say no if able to justify their no-action rather than take a risk and saying yes. It’s human nature and the nature of government.
141 – Yes, Joe, and the above same also said:
“The Governor will appoint his taskforce following the completion of the Sheriffs’ report”
So I get the idea that perhaps eventually the task force will aim to pull ALL of the information together for an even bigger and more comprehensive report that blends all info and draws some real conclusions on what went right/wrong and needs to be done in the future. Now, whether this is something we will ever see is a whole other question.
136- I know Kip, it’s very hard to understand.
turf battle
“…My logic tells me that a military-style search over this area might have either discovered the Kim Family or discovered evidence that might have led to their rescue. What does your logic tell you? …”
I agree with you but question just WHY that military style search did not take place? It appears to me to be an ANG pissing contest about ‘we fly in airspace that we own and don’t share it with privately chartered helicopters’. The mission seems to have been scheduled but not flown. SOMETHING happened. And you seem upset if I point the inquiry at the ANG.
137- Yes, thanks Angela for pointing that out.
142 Fools Gold– spot on, my friend. but as to 146, which mission was scrubbed? It is strange that Oregon NG assets sat for 72 hours. That part I don’t understand at all.
Maggie, how long do you think before we have the OSA timeline of County activities is issued and then the whole TF report is complete– I am guessing one month for the first and another two months beyond that for the second. Don’t know if due dates have been published.
The GR(or GP:)) gives you a timeline of the involvement of the State Agencies. I realize that it raises more questions and does not provide the answers that some people want.
The OSSA report should provide more details about the thought process that went into certain decisions and the information used to make those decisions.
Hopefully at some point the individuals involved in the search will be able to talk more freely.
I an no longer a member of the Josephine County Sheriff’s Office and can talk about the search. I am choosing not to provide information at this time. The main reason is that I would like the investigators from OSSA to finish their investigation. I may provide more information when the report is published. Also, the tactics used by certain members of the media has cause problems for me and my family.
I will make a comment about Spencer Kim. He is a remarkable individual.
Brian Anderson
Until this report I had not thought of the possibility that having access to far more than the usual number of resources may have created problems here. How were all the aircraft from many different agencies and carson being coordinated if at all?
I’d sure like to hear from the (dozens?) of pilots involved or almost involved in this search. Was there much coordination by or with Carson? They are mentioned as relaying to OSP that the car was found – I assume this happened after John Rachor had given Carson the coordinates. But hadn’t Rachor had also talked to some pilots the day before?
wow….still catching up and have not read the report yet.
Brenda, fools gold,lisa
brenda I do think you sould be careful making sweeping assesments about money, lawyers and rich people. You seem to be a very intelligent person but when you throw your opinion in between the lines and get somewhat argumentive with the other thoughtful people here it, well, it doesn’t work.
All I can say is, on the last page you said “this is why map-makers make so much money”
what do you condsider a lot of money? because we dont. We do okay if were very good and technically savvy and have learned and mastered gis. But did you know that cartographers that start in the army corps of engineers start at something like 16,000 a year…..I dont care where you live, thats not a lot of money anywhere. so I have to wonder for myself if your making the same sweeping generalization about the lawyers and rich people, etc. of course, I will read the report. But I dont need to have read it to see where your inserting your opinion and accusiong others of doing just that.
Anyway
fools gold, I am interested to read this part about the cell map as this is one area that has bothered me all along.
148 – Bamadad, hard to say when the Task Force will have the more “comprehensive” report, but I bet it will be awhile. I haven’t seen any anticipated dates. That, I think, would be the report most interesting to see, but I wonder if it’s one that we ever will see.
149 – Brian Anderson, thank you again for speaking up. I can understand your reasons for not wanting to comment right now. After the investigation is complete, it really would be interesting to hear your comments if you decide to discuss. I am sorry to hear that the media has caused problems for your family – given the reports that we’ve all read, I can only imagine it’s been tough. It sounds like folks in LE learn to face criticism almost as a matter of course, but it’s unfortunate for a family to kind of get sucked into things.
Brian,
Yes, thanks for joining us. It’s as if I have become numb to all the people related to this case popping up here. It’s an honor.
I think most of us, most people, know there is hardly ever any one person or event that can be blamed in a crisis, much like other people have noted, airplanes usually go down after a series of mistakes and problems, hardly ever one simple error or malfunction.
As we have all seen, right down to the pine branch covering rt. 42 exit on the interstate, its like more factors than anyone could possibly imagine contributed to James’s death.
It’s simply my hope that everyone will learn something new here, and refrain from harshly blaming and simplifying any one person or agency.
If its any consolation, I’ll bet most normal people have forgotten about this search and JoCo’s inolvement (except for us). I’m sure most people here in illinois still dont even know where josephine county is, or that it was the site of this tragic event. There is a whole world out there that simply doesn’t know or care who did what. Assuming you did everything in your power, well and right, that might not be much consolation, but at least you should know that there is more than likely a whole country (everything east of oregon) where you and your family could pass by unnoticed!
Brian – thanks for checking in again. You were pretty much in the center of the national media firestorm and handled it well. Sorry to hear this has been hard on your family as well as you.
Glenn: I need to spend some time with the kids
Good advice for all of us with kids!
PS. On a lighter note, but kind of interesting. A very good friend of mine is a crime reporter in California. She still….has never heard of this case. Granted she admits to never reading the news, just reports it. But I think that might give you some guage, that even though this story is wildly popular….well I think still, most people who do follow the news, dont follow it for long or very in depth!
I have to go, but I am stopping by, and I guess one of
the questions I still have is why the heat seeking helicopters weren’t ordered out on Sunday night after
the cell phone workers helped narrow the search to a much
smaller area.
I mean from what I remember reading, the cell phone people
pretty much narrowed it down to BLM 34-8-36 because of
elevation issues and they had cleared Bear Camp at that
point.
156- This isn’t addressed to anyone in particular – just putting it out there.
The Daily Courier has respected my privacy. They have not called me at home. I have an unlisted phone number.
However, the same cannot be said for other media sources.
I do know that two other members involved in the search have changed their home phone number. The GR does list phone numbers. This is wrong.
Brian Anderson
Ok only here for a brief moment.
I think the GR raises more questions than it could possibly answer. I don’t think the timeline encompasses the entire picture at all and quite frankly without a clear picture of ALL the efforts going on (San Fran, Portland, Joco, Nat Guard, etc, etc, etc…) we will never be able to accurately look at what could be improved especially inter-agency (where the majority of change could benefit). There will be a natural resistance especially with “govt” agencies they are very turf protective.
I am going to continue to distill what I read both in GR and here…way too early to get any farther (significantly at least) from where we were yesterday.
Maybe the report we get in the next couple of days will add more to the scenario.
(149) Brian thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I am hoping for the day when all of you can speak freely and we can get to the bottom of things. I empathize about the media – been on both sides of that fence. It can be horribly unfair what they can do. Keep your chin up – in the end truth will prevail and some of this will be set right, some won’t but hey that is the American way!
Brian Anderson and Sara Rubrecht have my personal thanks for all the work they did on the Kim Search. Three people were found ALIVE! The intense media scrutiny has been unfair towards them. They sacrificed family time during the search because that is their job and I’m sure would do it again in a heartbeat. If I ever get lost and need assistance I know if they were looking for me that I stand a good chance of surviving.
(158) Brian that is disturbing about distributing phone numbers directly in the report. Typically it is on specific cover-pages for people that “need” to know.
The grief from the media can be pretty intense.
I have questions, but the most burning ones, I think the answers can only come from Brian Powers or a report that he gives the answers or at least more detail in. For me this GR only restated facts we knew or created more questions.
(158) Brian, Have you considered or others getting a PR firm to start swinging the bat for you. You can turn the tide and in fact this blog can be a big part of that. You may want to consider getting some assitance in this area.
If you have questions about this, please feel free to email me and I will be glad to connect up some people for you.
158 – Brian Anderson, I did notice that phone numbers were listed in the GR and was, frankly, surprised. While we all wanted as much complete information as possible, that’s not what I had in mind. Regardless of positions in what becomes a high profile case, people are still people after all.
Yes, thank you Brian Anderson for being here and for
sharing what you can with us. If you can provide more
information after the OSSA Review, you know we would be
interested in hearing it.
(163) has a funny typo…I meant assistance. If anyone knows what assitance is…please let me know! LOL
(160) Redmex…thanks for the post. I think you are new…welcome. Please elaborate on your experiences and your reasons for such high praise. I for one would really appreciate knowing. Thanks.
Glenn.
I think assitance would be a combination of persistance and…a not so nice word.
I think we could all come up with applications of what it would refer to. We could use it to refer to the media, perhaps!? as in, I can’t believe the assitance of that reporter for calling his home, having got the phone number from today’s report.
(168) LOL could be the new happenstance!
168 – oh mapper, you are so right that Glenn may have just coined a word so useful – you could even make a noun, like someone who happens to be an assitant 🙂
Brian, Josephine County Sheriff’s Office lost a great individual and leader. I really wish the best for you in the new chapter of your life. The Kim search happened during the last week on your tenure with JOCO SO and I know you would have preferred winding things down differetly. You stepped up to the plate, did your job, and should be proud. You did a good job. Most of the media are vultures and are only interested in selling stories. They do not care what their ripple effect is on folks and their families.
Hey Briaster, you know who much I’ve appreciated your advise and leadership over the years. Keep the faith and know that you did the right thing and are one hella of a good person.
Welcome to you, RedMex. We don’t bite much.
Hi Glenn, I am new and thanks for the welcome. I have known Brian for almost 14 years. He is one of the most ethical people I have ever known. He takes his job seriously and always give 150%. I heard about this site yesterday and thought I’d take a look. I’m disheartned with the intense media scrutiny that both Brian and Sara have been under.
Hi Maggie and thanks for the welcome.
173 – RedMex, if it helps any, there are many of us here who have come to feel that we have not yet gotten the real story from what the media has reported thus far and are no longer as quick to point fingers at anyone. For most of us, I think, our minds have changed and become open (re-opened) in many different ways as new information became “known.” It’s always good to have the balance of other voices aside from what we read in the media. Glad you are here!
I have read the GR. It was published using raw data and lacked the information provided by personal interviews.
My interview with OSSA was two hours.
Brian Anderson
I am anxious to see or hear how this information was obtained from each person or agency….
Brian, I totally understand your frustration with the media, they can be relentless and just plain wrong in pursuit of a story.
I think you’re wise to wait for the reports to speak, as you presumably gave input already and it hasn’t been incorporated yet until published. I hope you get to set the record straight.
163 – This is series, and will require assitance to resolve. All your bases are belong to us.
(Sorry, Glenn, couldn’t resist) 🙂
BLAH!!!
😉
166/Lisa – I thought it was a seance where every sits down, but others had done me better…
I have known Sara for about 6 years and she is an excellent Emgergency Services, Search and Rescue Coordinator. She’s been on many, many searches that have had a good outcome. As a matter of fact, the day after the Kim search she was in the same area looking for someone else. That did not make the media. She’s gone through hell lately, with terrible people, sending her terrible e-mails. I for one sincerely appreciate everything she’s done.
180/RRR – could you, would you, elaborate ?? Bad cup of Dutch Brothers ? The GR ? The weather in Oregon ?
Ellen at 116) said: (113) Perhaps “Solis” is a mistake for “Galice” (since Agness is spelled Agnes in the same sentence).
But of course! Ellen comes through again!
Let me revise my Oregon National Guard helicopter timeline: Time in the air is still 160 minutes. Salem to Galice is 170 miles, Galice to Agness is 35 miles, and Agness to Gold Beach is 20 miles, for a total distance of 225 miles, adding 32 miles to our prior total.
So how fast could the National Guard pilots have made the trip between Salem and Galice? According to Wikipedia, the UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter has two large propellors, two huge engines, a minimum crew of 2, and a maximum speed of 222 mph. However, it is unlikely that the NG pilots traveled down the I-5 corridor at maximum speed, but probably at a cruising speed more like 170 mph. At that speed, they could have made it to Galice in an hour, arriving around 3:30 p.m. Let’s assume that they only concentrated on the target area and that they later traveled between Agness and Gold Beach at this assumed cruising speed, for a trip time of around 10 minutes and placing them over Agness around 4:40 p.m. This scenario would allow 70 minutes to cover the area between Galice and Agness, or about a linear mile of territory every two minutes. If we assume that they made two or more passes over the target area, then we must also assume a faster flyover time. This scenario assumes straight-line flight and does not allow for take-off and landing times or deviations or delays in flight, any of which would tend to shorten the time available over the target area.
On December 1, the Sun rose at 7:30 a.m. and set at 4:45 p.m. If the timeliine above is reasonable, the NG helicopter left Agness and landed shortly after Sunset. There is no mention of a subsequent search and the NG helicopter returned to Salem by 7:16 p.m., around 3 1/2 hours after their Sunset landing at Gold Beach.
Now, let’s imagine a different scenario: The NG helicopter departed Salem around 12:30 p.m. as scheduled and arrived over Galice by 2:00 p.m. (for a speed of 110 miles per hour). If the NG helicopter left Agness at 4:40 p.m., the crew could spend 160 minutes or more over the target area. A single sweep would allow a linear ground speed of 1,000 feet per minute. Of course, the NG crew would spend their time over the target area more efficiently and would travel faster but would cover a lot more terrain. In addition, the search team would have, at a minimum, two trained and experienced pilots to scan the terrain below (I’ll bet that the Carson helcopters only had a single pilot with no training) and possibly could have arranged to pick up “people that can ride in helicopter that know the roads.” GR at 3. How much would RRR’s knowledge of this territory helped in a helicopter that afternoon?
For several hours before Sunrise and for several hours after Sunset, the Sunlight slants through the trees at a steep angle, making it hard to see anything on a narrow, tree-lined road unless the helicopter is directly overhead. Consequently, a slow midday search is far preferable to a speedy late-afternoon search and may have been critical to the conclusion in this case.
And what was the Kim Family doing on the afternoon of December 1? “Dec. 1: They burn all four remaining tires to signal for help and for heat. The fire burns out in the afternoon.? They hear a helicopter, but can’t locate it.” Timeline from San Jose Mercury News.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/16188148.htm
Does it seem reasonable that a National Guard helicopter cruising the area between Galice and Agness for 2 1/2 hours might see this fire? Is it reasdonable that the Kims would have heard this huge twin-bladed helicopter moving slowly overhead and found some way to attract attention? It appears that by the time that the NG helicopter appeared over Bear Camp Road, the Kims had already burned all four of their tires and had no ammunition left. A couple of hours might have made all the difference.
We should note that the Kim Family was not hiding at the invisible edge of a tree-lined road. Instead, they were parked at a relatively wide intersection that was relatively visible at an angle. Look at this satellite picture of the intersection:
http://www.layoutscene.com/james-kim-path/index.html
Surely someone would have seen a four-tire fire on a clear day, if only they had been in the area.
So we can properly ask why the trained and experienced pilots of the Oregon National Guard pilots did not leave Salem around Noon as scheduled, why they did not recruit people that can ride in helicopter that know the roads,” GR at 3, and why they didn’t spend several two or three hours flying back and forth between Agness and Galice during the early afternoon instead of making one or two quick passes late in the day.
Of course, we now know the answer: The National Guard helicopter was grounded because private aviation was reportedly operating in the target area. Although Spencer Kim sent that helicopter off on another errand, the National Guard didn’t know this and remained at the ready, burning fuel and daylight and waiting for an order to proceed.
Like the Coast Guard, any military operation naturally excludes private aircraft from the surrounding airspace. And in uncontrolled airspace, this is exactly as it should be. Any way that you put it, the National Guard helicopter wasn’t in the search area because the Carson helicopters were supposedly operating in that airspace. Under those conditions, the National Guard could not conduct its operations in a safe manner.
So who put the Carson Helicopters in the air? It wasn’t the CuCo Sheriff – he was opposed to it. It wasn’t JoCo – on December 1 they had yet to appear as actors in the Governor’s Report. It wasn’t even PacNWer. So whose actions and decisions grounded the Oregon National Guard? You tell me.
177/CitizenCane. I’d like to know also. Wonder if that will be in the OSSA report.
[160].. “Three people were found ALIVE!” …yeah, thanks mainly to 2 private citizens acting on their own volition, John Rachor and Eric Fuqua.
175/Maggie. I’m glad to hear that your minds were changed when you got more information.
186/Kip. You should not believe everything you read in the Oregonian. Besides private citizens many volunteers and Sheriff’s Office personnel worked very hard to find the Kim’s. The bottom line is that someone found them and it does not matter who it was.
I can’t speak though the duct tape…I only have a small hole for the Dutch Bro’s straw…..My hands are bound behind me….I am typing with my nose!
186 – We don’t have nearly the whole story yet! Why they certainly deserve credit and praise, you’re implying negative things about the official effort that may be premature…if there is anything we’ve seen here, it is how subsequent revelations can drastically change perceptions.
189/RRR – No, say it ain’t so !! The dreaded darkened room with the single white glaring lightbulb, the solitary wooden chair, and ominous men in dark suits lurking in the shadows intensely asking questions. 🙂
187 – RedMex, in fairness, I have to say that for many of us it’s not necessarily a “change” of mind, but it is definitely a more open mind, realizing that we still really don’t know. Once *the* Oregonian article came out and we heard no response to the contrary, it seemed it must be true. But then, folks like JoCoSAR and RRR started posting on here with some different explanations for things and a different point of view, and it became something to seriously consider. At this point, I think many of us are still waiting for the real story to finally make its way out, whatever it actually is. Does that make sense?
189 – LOL! 😀
189/RRR – Watch out for those dreaded men in dark suits lurking in the shadows. Do you need to be rescued?
I think ultimately it will be more important to be objective
than subjective…
192/Maggie. Makes absolute sense and I totally agree. I appreciate the open mindedness. JoCoSAR and RRR would know how things went down.
(194)I am more concerned about the ones lurking across the street in a crown victoria……
Who’s Gomer?
Gomer Pile???
RogueRiverRat78
196 – And when they were able to participate, JoCoSAR and RRR both shed a LOT of new light and also happen to be very likable as well. I bet they are chomping at the bit as much as we are for them to be able to speak!
If you can say, RedMex, were you involved in the search? I know some folks can’t say much or don’t want to say much, so it’s understandable if you don’t say. Just curious.
RedMex reminds me of someone…
(197) You only have to worry if it is a black tahoe.
200/Maggie – I was in Portland during the search but dealt with the aftermath.
197/ Let’s see, who do we know who drives Crown Victorias ?? 😛
203- RedMex, how did you deal with the aftermath?
That’s a cute smiley Paul!
205/Lisa – Press, e-mails, telephone calls, employees, etc.
207 – Madeleine, that was all really nicely put.
208- RedMex, will you be able to reveal your identity to
us as to who you, RedMex, are eventually?
Brian, your comment about Spencer Kim being remarkable made me realize something about this case. The paradox is that a seemingly ordinary family turned out to behave in an extraordinary fashion when faced with this crisis.
Spencer Kim immediately used the means at his disposal to get a search going. Kati’s family provided strong support throughout, and is helping to put the pieces back together. Kati kept her baby and small child nourished and comforted for a miserable period of time under awful conditions. James, of course, not only went without food to provide for the family, kept the children entertained and after making his unbelievable trek, paid the ultimate price.
These people played the hand they were dealt with grace and courage and dignity. I’m sure that those who searched for them did the same, and any mistakes made should not detract from their overall efforts. Anytime there are multiple agencies involved in an operation, communication is taxed and there will likely be lessons learned for the next time. If the overall system and motorist awareness can be improved from this after action analysis, that would be the best tribute to everyone involved.
208/Maggie – When the report comes out, I’d be happy to. Madeline, that was nicely put.
It would seem to me Spencer Kim may have taken action only after realizing that the leadership / coordination of the SAR effort was in disarray and that time was very fast running out for his son.
212 – RedMex, that wasn’t me – it was Lisa 🙂
213/Kip – Wow! I urge you to keep an open mind until the OSSA report comes out. Again, do not believe everything you read in the Oregonian. From what I understand, Spencer Kim is a pretty remarkable individual that would move heaven and earth for his family. I would do the same thing if ever in that situation and had the means to do so. I don’t think it’s fair to say the leadership was in disarray.
215- Will the leadership be able to refute and respond fact for fact what it is now implying the Oregonian got wrong?
213/ Kip: Your comment are starting to get more than a little Pac-thetic. That is a total speculation on your part.
216/Lisa – Do you work for the Oregonian?
don’t make it personal anyone
218- Ha! No.
Kip (213) – The BOLO went out to the agencies late in the day on 11/30. By the next morning, several agencies were coordinating efforts at the same time Spencer Kim was putting together his resources, the hired helos. I don’t think he “realized” overnight that “leadership/coordination was in disarray”, that seems unfair.
To any family member awaiting news of a missing person, the nuts and bolts of putting together an operation of this type are probably most frustrating to endure. But Mr. Kim appears to be very decisive and had the means and opportunity to do what he did, and he went for it.
I’ve just heard all this about how the Oregonian got it
wrong, and I haven’t heard any proof of that.
And I wonder if I ever will.
Help, Joe – 207 didn’t appear to go through to the board, so retyped it and posted (#211) from memory, but with some changes, I see. Can you delete the first one, #207, lest anyone think I’m really into hearing myself pontificate?? Thanks!!
222 – Or any proof that the Oregonian was 100% correct, either.
Hopefully once the investigation is out there will be some answers to balance. That’s my hope. It doesn’t sound like everyone who has wanted to say something to refute what the Oregonian has reported has been at liberty to fully do so – yet.
224 – Madeleine, 🙂 . I noticed that and was going to say that you said the same thing a bit differently but beautifully – twice!
225- Well if no one is able to dispute them, they are
correct.
225 – Bravo, well said….hard to defend yourself with a Crown
Victoria parked out front. 😛
I am wondering what the criteria for the GR report was for reports from different agencies…….Who got the say so as to what gets put in and what gets left out from all the info gathered from the different agencies….
228 – Thank goodness, she got the duct tape off. Hard to breath, talk or drink Dutch Bros that way.
227 – Thank you, Paul.
226 – OK.
RRR (228) pretty darned good nose-typing!
Interesting question. I assumed that all that was included was the chronology from the state agencies. If the Governor’s office has received other reports then will they be made public? Or will they all be saved for the task force? Or is the Governor’s office just waiting out of courtesy for the OSSA report?
224 – Thanks, Maggie, for the kind words. Some nights you just can’t get me to be quiet around here… (okay, lots of nights).
It doesn’t sound to me like the facts the Oregonian had
are wrong. It sounds like people are going to try to explain
that the reasons behind the facts make them more ‘understandable’ or ‘justifiable’, etc. It’s going to
be about ‘wiggle room’. That’s just what I see coming at
this point, objectively speaking.
(231) Yes I thought it was a good question to stew over…..
233 – I have heard enough from JoCo, Brian & RRR to have serious doubts about the Boregonian account. Kati’s dad also seems to have an open mind, which I think is a sign that they may have more than a few things wrong. Regardless, I am keeping an open mind BOTH ways and I think anything at this point is sheer speculation.
RedMex – Welcome and thank you for the comments.
Brian Anderson – It is so unfair what the spotlight of the media brings. I am so sorry for you and your family. I appreciate your desire to allow the OSSA investigators to complete their process and I hope you will join us once that phase of the review is complete.
Paul (235) Well put 🙂
RRR, it appeared to me that each of the agencies listed was asked for a timeline of their actions/communications, period. Then somebody merged them into the one document, allegedly “unchanged”, I believe the report stated. If this was to be the extent of this document, with more details coming in later reports, I would have sent a sample format around to the agencies so everyone was on the same page. Perhaps they did that, since there weren’t too differences in layout. I did note that one agency kept goofing up Sara’s last name, which seemed preventable.
Please Note: From here on out, am blaming all typos on Fred, the largest and friendliest of my cats, who shows extreme and intense interest whenever I’m typing. He also sends faxes by himself by standing on the redial button, and retrieves incoming faxes with his paw from inside the printer. Soon he’ll be posting here, I fear. If suddenly Madeleine begins demanding better catfood, do not be fooled.
[215] – RedMex… well, that’s how it appears to me, the SAR leadership and coordination was one big bungle. James needn’t have died. The information in the GR report only serves to confirm my view. Take for example: 2-02-06 – Oregon State Police report — It said the Bear Camp road and it’s spurs “had been searched”. (presumably 34-8-36 is a spur) How am I supposed to reconcile that road reported officially as having been searched.. when it was not?!
Please, please… my opinions are based on more than just what I’ve read in the Oregonian.
I’m sure Spencer Kim is a remarkable man. I never thought nor meant to say anything to suggest he wasn’t. On the contrary I admire him very much for taking on the search initiative.
I look forward to when it’s all out, everywhere. That
will be interesting. I’m sorry I’m being too serious.
I will go away now.
I mean no blame. I just have to be real.
Goodnight, everyone! 🙂
238 – LOL 🙂 =^..^=
RRR – Ok, slowly pondering here (and waayy too many hours studying tonight so brain not fully connecting dots) Anyway – the GR – I’ve been wondering why if the chronology was requested on December 22nd and there was no editing, no input from other agencies, nothing other than slicing and dicing existing data reports – then why did it take until Jan 5th to release this?
242- hhhmmm Good question……
238 😆 Madenline, maybe Fred is just jealous . . .
235- Paul, you know if it was that serious the Oregonian
would have retracted…
I also have a Fred
I have a freddette…..
I have 3 freds (well, one is an ette, too)
238// Meow Mix ???
242 – Angela, good point, I’m guessing that there was a shortage of slicers and dicers due to holidays. There were maybe 7 work days there, and for gov’t folk to sit down, agree to a final format and merge the individual chronos, that doesn’t surprise me. And they probably threw in a committee that had to approve it, even though basically it was a compilation. Chalk up another couple of meetings and days.
My Fred showed up one night while we were in the hot tub and he’s never left.
And we really haven’t heard anything but personalities,
which are likeable, but that ain’t facts…
[217] – “213/ Kip: Your comment are starting to get more than a little Pac-thetic. That is a total speculation on your part”
Paul, almost always I like what you have to say and how you say it, but!!
Let me just say this, so far anything I’ve speculated here has later proven out.
245 / I disagree – I think the Oregonian is probably waiting like all the rest of us for the official report to come out. Newspapers are notoriously reluctant to print retractions, even when they clearly get something wrong.
253 / We’ll know a whole lot more in a week or so, one way or the other.
254- We’ll see, won’t we…
Paul, Lisa, Maggie, Mad (can I call you mad!?:) everyone else.
I try to look at it this way. Were mistakes made? Absolutely. Was the Oregonian wrong? Probably yes and probably no.
The distinction I try to make, is that more than likley the SAR people AND the leadership did their jobs the way they were trained to do them
Things have changed drastically in the last few years with technology and what is avaialble (for instance pings and the need to create line of sight maps based on that data).
It is my opinion there may be problems with the protocols, and the investigation will reveal those gaps. I do not believe (though its possible) that the investigation will reveal gross negligence on SAR’s part or of any one person or agency.
We can certainly scrutinize the protocols, which may be outdated. We can also ask questions about funding and such and how that effects the needs of the particular agency.
That is my opinion, anyway, having worked in government you have certain rules to follow (not unlike the hotel workers who refused the credit card numbers). It is my opinion many reporters do not understand the stories they work on, many of them not having the education to back up the claims, as many journalists simply major in journalism or english…not politics or world geography, or local government. I noticed this was rampant in the hurricaine katrina aftermath and the blame on fema.
reporters are quick to blame, as they may see something as “common sense” wheras often protocols prevent government workers from using their common sense.
I know I have said much of this before (and not perfectly but I think you get my point), dont mean to be a broken record. But I think it is an important disticnction to make….we can take issue with the way things are done, and what is written, the system. But I do believe (or hope and am pretty sure its quite likely) the people were doing their jobs.
I’m interested to hear if any of the JoCo people would agree with me….this is my perception.
244, 246, 247, 248, 249, 251: LOL, I knew you were kindred souls! Fred says “Hey!”
I reading for the last hour or so. This is a good vehicle to get opinions and feelings out. Don’t know Sara or Brian but I sure do think they are getting the short end of the stick with the media and Kip. Lisa, you seem like a fact kinda person. You’d make a great cop. By chance do you own a crown victoria? lol.
I have two Freds, 16 and 15… 🙂
Really going!
259- No, I just have to be honest
257 – Mapper, very well put. Talking about the gov’t workers and others not being able to step outside the box reminds me of the stories where the water delivery guy, as an example, stops and helps somebody in trouble and is later in big trouble for not following his exact route by helping the person in distress. Or the pizza delivery guy who saves a life at an accident and is then canned because some fool didn’t get his pizza in 30′. Shortsighted, those companies. There are some parts of the envelope you can push, even at a gov’t agency, but others are difficult to go around.
[239] – “I’m sure Spencer Kim is a remarkable man. I never thought nor meant to say anything to suggest he wasn’t. On the contrary I admire him very much for taking on the search initiative.”
That’s the spirit that built our country. A private citizen acting independently to help out at his expense.
Wasn’t it one of his rented ‘copters that rescued the girls? With private citizen John Rachor standing by after radioing their location?
Mapper (257) Certainly some good points.
I ran across some information that may or may not become an issue for future SAR efforts in Josephine County. I apologize I don’t have the details or proper names in front of me. The gist is that the Forest Service for years has paid a few in lieu of taxes to states and counties that have Forest Service (USFS) land. The theory being that because of the land taken by USFS property taxes are not generated for this area. Yet some public services are still required on the federal land (like SAR). Of course the Federal Government does not and will not pay property taxes, thus the payment in lieu. In some areas this payment in lieu of taxes has been a substantial amount. If I understand correctly as of 2006 this payment will has been cut. This means that sparsely populated counties with large amounts of federal land could sustain a significant revenue blow.
I have no idea the extent to which Josephine County receives such funds or if the State will be picking up the difference. I just saw a quick blurb, knew the background of these payments and began to wonder.
262 – I knew you would have Freds!
257 – Mapper, I’m very inclined to agree with you. Like most, I’m holding out for more information once we have “facts,” but my mind is very open, and I know that not everything I read is necessarily true or necessarily false – not matter what channel it’s on or what newspaper it’s in or even what blog it’s on 😉
Still, I pick up on sincerity fairly well (no, it’s not 100% and can’t be proved, but it’s served me extremely well so far), and I have some thoughts along with yours as to what kinds of things we might find out. I could be wrong. Just my opinion.
(264) Are you talking about O&C monies???
264 OOPS typo – darned FRED!! “few in lieu of taxes” should be “fee in lieu of taxes”. Though since they’ve apparently cut off the funds maybe few was correct after all 🙂
264. very interesting. I knew the boundaries and lines of responsibility between agencies up there were confusing (and probably especially to some reporters) but that is something to really think about.
Now…that I think of it and this is not along the same line of thought, I think joco said they used a USDA map…..of the National forest (even more confusing but maybe that helps narrow down, at least for me another agency that is doing mapping in the area, more specific than odot).
CitizenKane (264) – I’ve seen it called different things within different States. O&C typically means operating and Capital to me. This was actually a Payment In Lieu of Taxes that was paid directly from the Federal Government, I believe deposited in the State Government funds then divided out to the various counties. I can do some research next week for the federal program name.
Maggie…yes, an open mind is always good! (understatement of the year? well its only janurary). I certainly am also open to finding out that there were some bad seeds involved, and the protocol is not the perfect sheild. I hesitate to say it in front of Brian….but Sheriff Daneils quotes were certainly damning…though I do believe its quite possible they were taken out of context.
Mapper (269) – Didn’t the USFS GIS department provide SAR with specific maps? I know during fires etc. the USFS prints off detailed maps of the specific area involved- I would assume something similar happens for SAR.
[259] – Mattman, for the record, I have the highest respect for JoCoSAR. She’s very intelligent & expresses herself very well. I love her spirit. Whatever the outcome, I won’t be changing my mind about that. I wish her well now and always. I mean it.
272- Something like that “could” have happened……. 🙂
272. from what I understand (not sure, joco and others would know) my understanding is usfs provided them with paper maps.
it is also my understanding that the joco gis department probably has some digital data or they aquiring some from the usfs or whatever agency maintains the digital data for the logging roads in that area.
your getting at the heart of what I am wondering about too.
MUST HAVE MORE DUTCH BROS…….
Mapper – (275) – 🙂 it’s a good thing because otherwise they might have to put the volunteers to work drawing the maps. And after ‘watching’ RRR pull her hair out the other night trying to draw a line on a map that might just be too funny, though not productive 😆
Just cause I didn’t know the program……..
277. hahah. and well, unfortunatley it only gets harder from there! they really need to keep their gis people or there mapping abilities, and map analysis abilities, and IMS (allowing for future geocoding and emergency assistance and real time updates) will die, along with the entire gis program and all the work they have already put into it.
I hope they do get to keep their skilled workers or they are set up for disaster or worse trouble with high priced consultants.
271 – Mapper, yes, I agree. Even the Daniels quotes – I think the words were pretty disgusting to hear, BUT… context is everything, and all I really saw was the quote with no real certainty about context – so I can’t comfortably make that judgement call quite yet. Madeleine really nailed it somewhere up there around comment 61 or so about context.
Glad you are back around here some more tonight!
280. yes, I’m not around as much as I was during the holidays but I am glad to report I didn’t set of any fire alarms in public tonight. And you all might be subjected to me pretty late tonight too as I fell asleep mid-day and my schedule is all messed up! I hate to say this place is often more interesting than my own social circle!:)
Oooohhhh you have your own social circle…..I am jealous!!!
I’m turning into a zombie and must go to sleep – Thanks all for the pondering and thought provoking discussions.
Just one last question before I head to sleep – How far can we open our minds before our brains fall out??
Have you ever seen the “reach” toothbrush commercial>?> Flip top head…..I like that idea!!
🙂 Oh yes, if we had flip top heads then we could have eyes in the back of our heads too – of course everything would be backwards. . .
281/282 – Hahahaha, you mean there is a life outside of this blog?? I haven’t seen it in weeks. I have zero social life. Thank God my man is the way he is. I’m amped on coffee (made by said man), and I’ll be here for hours.
283 – Good night Angela! That was funny.
Well I am in a locked room with the TV on and my lap top on wirless…..hhhmmmmm
maggie your man sounds admirable.
and I doubt all of you charming people lack a social circle. you are so humble.
Just me and my Fredette! Oh yeah did I mention I am manager of a Resort and it is our off season……I AM BORD!!!!!! NO LIFE!!!!
288 – I can’t complain. We both tend to live on our computers, back to back, saying “hi” once in awhile 🙂
289/RRR The Rogue is running 10000 cfs, that would cure your boredom…or, better yet, the Illinois at 3700…that would really take care of it. P)
OH MY GOSH!!! Don’t tempt me I was checking out my favorite surfin spot….JoCo would KILL me…..It would kinda like be a suicide mission if I went and played in the river right now…
292/I’ve never been on it that high, I would assume most everything except Blossom and Mule Creek would just wash out.
So are we going to make any bets on the time line for OSSA report……I have heard a week….Do I hear two????
10 days, I’ll wager a Dutch Bros coffee card. 😉
well shoot now i will have to take you up on that first i must look at a calendar paul i will give you a date tomorrow and the bet will be on!
I think everyone has fallen asleep…another interesting day on J.D. – never a dull moment that’s for sure. Last one out please turn off the lights please ?
Are we all leaving for the night?
Well I started out sitting up in bed talking on my lap top I have now fallin down to a prone position but I am still here
I’m going to let you nice ladies have a slumber party. I am all tuckered out. It’s girls night out on Joe D from here on out, unless Glenn is still lurking…or someone else.
Here is something to leave you with…nothing new really, but hot off the press:
http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/oregonian/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/2007_01.html#222359
I’m still up maggie…just can’t think of anything i felt like adding tonight! I read most of the report but didn’t quite get through the whole thing.
As tara and others have said (maybe you too) it seems to bring up more questions for me than answers.
Couldn’t the national guard and the private pilots…couldn’t that have been arranged better? I mean, it seems like the national guard was being ….how shall I say…..well fools gold referred to it as a “pissing contest” I am inclined to believe that is what it sounded like from what I read. This is a coordination issue in my opinion more than a …only one organization can be in the sky at one time…what gives? I live near O’hare airport…enough said.
and the cell map. I am not in the state of mind tonight to dissect the time and date stamp on the report. But, I have my theories about how that really could have been improved, but am waiting until people can speak their peace about it I guess.
I kinda stopped reading, near the part they found kati.
Anyone know what time the Oregonian posts the new news on its web site……Can ya tell I am biting at the chop here!!
Yes, Mapper, more questions than answers. I did scan through it and promised myself I’d read it through again tonight, but it almost sounds like my first read may have been good enough based on the discussions.
I know so little about having all different helis flying around and not running into each other – but I lived close enough to O’Hare, too, to think that there’s some kind of solution 😉
So much of the rest of it I’m just in the same boat as most of us, waiting to hear.
Goodnight to my newly found minions, and always remember that Dogs have Owners, Cats have Staff.
Chow,
Fred
Well my email has crashed I can’t send anymore it must be a sign…Going to call it a night…I am sure I will return bright and early to sit on the side lines and NOT talk hehehehe like that worked today….Have a good night!!!!
Paul just left a link above of a snipet, but I think any articles usually go up shortly after midnight. Do you think we’ll see one tonight?
Good night, RRR. Hope you can visit tomorrow 🙂
Well heck it is worth waiting just a few minutes then if midnight is the timeline! HA timeline I find humor in that ….GOD I am tired
Night Madeleine – I shot you an email.
Good Night ALL!!!! (even thos cyber monkies who are steaking us out and tattling to the cops!!!)
thanks paul, just looked at the article…also hits on some of what I am questioning! thanks.
In defense of people trying to read the line of sight map, I did a project on this kind of mapping just this past summer. I know most people have never even thought of or heard of such a thing.
This is the kind of thing I would like to change and be included in protocols, as I have said before, gis people can do line of sight maps. okay getting ahead of myself. I am going on a limb and making assumptions but what I wanted to read, is that eric f. was put in touch with joco gis people. I have not seen any evidence of this, only that the process happened very slowly and eric had to deal with people who were unaccustomed to this type of procedure and they made him wait…and wait. gis people should have been involved as soon as eric said something about line of sight mapping. the gis people would have been the perfect bridge of communication between eric and the higher ups at joco (or whoever he was dealing with).
again, these are all assumptions of what did or did not happen. and I am saying, truly I understand this is an obscure resource (line of sight maps) that most people know nothing about, and is probably not often used in searches.
now…people are talking about it, that is a good thing.
I do not know if eric was an engineer or had gis capabilities (I dont want to go into exactly what I mean by this). I learned a bit about line of sight mapping this summer when doing a project on locating scenic viewpoints in a certain national park I wont mention. If eric is more an engineer or cell phone technolgy kind of guy he would have benefitted from having gis people help him create the map, if he was relying on older methods of line of sight mapping (I keep hearing the term triangulation, and that is why I say this). They may have a certain way of doing this mapping at edge, I am interested of learning about it.
I care not to speculate any longer. will wait and see. Thanks to Eric though, if you are out there listening. This is just the type of assistance I have wondered about, and how gis could be useful, and used in ways it is not currently being used.
Thanks to Eric.
Good evening all. Wow- took me forever to catch up on the posts.
It was an interesting presentation, that the GR was basically a timeline from the various state agencies, but then again, that’s pretty much exactly what they said it was going to be I think.
I’m going to again urge patience, and don’t try to gleen too much from raw data. I was directly involved (albeit not with the SAR mission) and parts of it had me wondering. Having been interviewed for the OSSA rpt., as well, I think you will find more of what you’re hoping for in the way of questions answered in that report, as well as the supplemental reports directly submitted by those involved.
oK MIDNIGHT was the number there is more posted about the cell call
315 – Hi there Det Mike! Yes, we are all really hoping that the OSSA report will be more of an answer instead of more of another question.
Detective,
good to hear from you again! When it slows down I start letting my mind wander to the dark side of speculation.
Maggie,
I got your e-mail hours ago and responded, only my response was sitting in the outbox, all by itself. Just found it when I saw your post. Must have been the fault of you-know-who, The Orange One. I sent it just now!
316 – Yes, the Oregonian’s new article is up (have not read it yet)
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1168059307281390.xml&coll=7
319 – Oh no, mine’s Orange, too!
Goodnight madeleine and fred
312 – Mapper, I’m so glad that we have someone here that understands all that GIS stuff and has ideas about how things could work together for best efficiency. Time is so key, I think.
G’night, Mapper. I went over and read the article in the Sat. Oregonian, but it appears to be the same as the Friday story. I give up…will have a fresh look in the a.m.
Have not been able to get back today until now and mind is not functioning very well at present. Have just skimmed through, hopefully can get clear headed tomorrow.
So this may have been addressed already – roads were cleared by copters – with such a canopy, wouldn’t be impossible to consider any area completely cleared from the air?
The personnal phone numbers should “NOT” have been on the release to the media and general public. Although important to get reports done, care should be taken.
323 It does appear to be the same but if you look at the bottom there are 3 pages…..
Hello, my name is Phil and while I do not have the celebrity status of some of the other posts, I did play a middle management role in the command post during the Kim search. Even though I am only a volunteer, I am non-the-less bound by Sheriff’s Office policy not to provide details of the search. The safest way to adhere to this policy is to simply not say anything, but are just a couple of things I cannot resist commenting on. I will however attempt to be careful not to cross the line.
My first comment concerns entry 47 (did the search managers care). My position afforded me the privilege of working directly under Brian Anderson, Brian Powers, Jason Stanton, and Sara Rubrecht. I don’t think I’m divulging any state secrets when I tell you that I was VERY impressed with their personal commitments to the search effort, you could see it in their eyes. They insisted that all of us work as if it was our family lost out there. Then there is the fact that they stayed late into the night before leaving the operation in the hands of the night shift, and were there before everyone else in the morning. So yes, Anderson’s tears were real, and they were far from the only tears in the command post that day. Bottom line is that I would pick them to manage a search for my children anytime.
Maggie,
Thanks. I have been at it for about 8 years if I count part of my schooling. There are many parts of GIS I dont completley understand. It really takes a team of us with different specialties to cover everything. I am someone that has a pretty broad understanding of GIS and several specialities (due to my proficiency in taking internships instead of real jobs for a good number of those 8 years:)! and I like to learn things completley instead of halfway…but it is still so difficult.
But, this is also how I have a good idea of what challenges other government agencies will have utilizing gis and their gis employees, especially if they have a very small department and not a lot of funds. I’ve been in that position several times….being the only one (or even one of a team of 2) map person(s) in an agency is a tough role.
And our experience is farily universal, in that role.
At times I may sound critical of other cartographers (ODOT) or how the gis was incorporated in the search or utilized, or if they were involved in the communication process with eric. The truth is I am sympathetic because I know that quite often they have many challenges to overcome to begin with, at the upper level of management.
okay, though, that odot map needs to change 🙂
326 – Phil, welcome very much here. I’ll be glad when all of you can speak as much as you care to speak 🙂 Some may disagree with me, but I’ve always been convinced that lack of care was never an issue here, and to me, the sincerity came through very clearly. Thank you very much for stopping by and saying what I’ve had a “hunch” about and most of all for your tireless efforts. My sincere admiration and respect for all of your hard work.
I am nervous about posting this…but want to say “Thank you” to each of you. Especially to Joe for having such a
fine blog, which has attracted so many good people.
I’m hoping that Brian Anderson will see my comments…or that someone will let him know that I appreciate him very much.
I’m probably much too emotional…hoping that thhis isn’t too inappropriate…or wasting space.
This story has touched me deeply….for many reasons. I have
friends who have a cabin at Powers and have told me many stories of their adventures near the Rogue. One of my physicians is of Korean descent…a saint, who went through a difficult time a year ago, himself, and revealed his deep devotion to his family. I have a small craft booth at the Oregon coast…nothing like Kati’s two boutiques…but from everything I’ve read she is doing what I would dearly love to do, if I had the health and energy to do so.
Other bits and pieces of experience that made James Kim’s plight tug at my heart.
FOr whatever reason, this year I have struggled with anniversary dates…moreso than usual. December 6th would have been my brother’s 58th birthday. He died nineteen years ago. As I watched the news coverage unfold, I desperately prayed James would be found alive. Even as details were revealed that left me thinking no one could survive what he had endured, I still needed to believe that
somehow he had made it.
When Brian Anderson said that James’ body had been located,
I was devastated. Brian…my heart went out to you. It meant so much to me that you responded as you did…though I
ached for what it was doing to you. Thank you for caring so much. Thank you for the comments you have made here.
I’m not sure if it was the 6th, or the 7th, that I began reading this blog…but have been following it closely since
then. It has been a tremendous help for me. I thank all of you for being such caring people.
What an incredible spirit James was…and continues to be…
to have inspired such an outpouring of love and devotion.
My warmest wishes,
Nancy
327 – I bow to you for all things that are Map/GIS, of which I don’t know a heck of a lot, but I do know that something is not right about that ODOT map!
Well I have been gone for a little over 2 week’s and as I have been trying to catch up UGH!!! lots of new info!
Just a little funny, we went to Canada, coming one day (stayed at my sis’s on the border hopped back and forth) the guy went thru the back of our car lifting up the spare tire cover and found the stash I have been trying to accumulate,
3 lighters
3 space blankets
candles
big bag of peanut butter cups
Food bars
plastic bags
He commented “well this is an interesting stash….. ” I replied “just trying to be a responsible traveler!” He said “good for you!”
I must also admitt with all the discussion here I still was not as prepared as I should have been…. no shoes but clogs, no warm coat, no hat, I did remember to throw in a pair of socks….
I have in the last couple of weeks told myself to not let gas get below 1/2 ect but found myself at midnight pushing thru on fumes because we just wanted to get there.
We went out to dinner one night and my daughter wanted to walk back to her aunts with her cousins, so I went with her, light sweater, light coat, clogs no socks, no gloves, no hat, jeans…. 28 degrees and the wind blowing, I was sooooo cold, In 15 minutes I can’t even imagine being like that for 9 days!
Its amazing even with the best of intensions how your old behavours slip back in.
Laurie
Thanks Nancy and Phil
I think I speak for everyone when I say we hope you keep posting if you want to, and welcome!
Nancy, nice first post! Sounds like you’ve been reading along with us for quite awhile, and I’m glad that you spoke up. I think for many of us there have been different kinds of similarities where we could relate that sort of made this story pull at our hearts. Many of us joined you in wishing almost against reason that James could be found alive – especially after Kati and the girls made it. It was almost impossible to not be hopeful of another miracle.
Don’t be nervous around us – you’ve seen how we are 😉
Well welcome back, Laurie! Wow, two weeks worth of posts to catch up on here doesn’t even seem doable… Sometimes I feel like missing just half a day can be pretty rugged sometimes.
I’m picturing the back of your car at border crossing and the look his face while calling it an “interesting stash.” It’s so true that many of us could be better prepared – I’m a little better now, but still wouldn’t really be ready for anything quite on the scale of what the Kim’s went through.
Thank you Maggie and Mapper, I will not likely be on here much, but I very much appreciate the level of concern and efforts to be open minded I’ve seen when reading this blog over the past several days.
To entry 223, yes the Oregonian did get it wrong, but I can’t fault anyone for thinking that way. The irony is that it was the Oregonians willingness to use information entirely out of context that led LE officials to issue a gag order to all of us involved. And rightly so, had we tried to “straighten them out” it would have only made it much worse. In the long run we are all better off waiting for an official third party review. And yes the OSSA investigation is very much third party review. While I can’t provide details, I can tell you their research phase was intense.
I will give you one specific aspect of the Oregonian reporting that has been very misleading. They have focused on blaming Rubrecht for much of what they say went wrong. They have also attacked her qualifications to run a search. This is crazy, she is not a search manager, it is not part of her job as SAR Coordinator. I’m not saying her role isn’t important, it is, but there is always a sworn Deputy in charge. She coordinates resources for them. So because she is the one placing the calls for helicopters there is an assumption that she was responsible for the whole search. It is a classic case of shooting the messenger. And the sad part is that the Oregonian knows this.
As for entry 339, there are many conflicting reports. This entry makes reference to a conversation reported in the GR between Powers and Rubrecht. And I agree, that the statement taken from Powers report does not jive with what we know. To say that they are both good people would be an understatement, but somewhere in the effort to balance thousands of details over multiple sixteen to eighteen hour days, these misunderstandings happen. Keep in mind that this communication slip had no impact on the search. Those responsible for searching the spur roads had teams up there every day from Friday on. By the way, Bear Camp is part BLM, part USFS. I’m not sure how many spur roads are in the BLM areas, but there are 160 spur roads off Bear Camp in the National Forest.
Maggie, Laurie,
this whole thing has justified the usual mess of stuff I keep in the trunk of my car. I thought i was just lazy, after moving so many times and not wanting to deal with certain odds and ends (even a winter coat and some extra shoes and fire kindling back there!). Now I feel like I can just go ahead and leave it there!
I do imagine how funny I would look walking out of the woods wearing an assemblage of the clothing i have left in there….it was left there for a reason 🙂
335 – Phil, what you have said about the gag order really does make an awful lot of sense. I can understand not wanting to dig the hole any deeper and instead hushing and letting a third party investigate and sort it out more objectively. As you can tell, we are all *very* interested in hearing that report and hope that anyone temporarily “hushed” will be free to express whatever comments they have.
For so long, we had only information from the media, and then some different perspective from JoCoSAR and RRR, but even they, like you, were not able to say much other than that it wasn’t quite correct.
Anyway, even if you are not able to post much, it’s good to have you here when you can be!
336 – I never unpacked my trunk from summer camping, thought about finally doing it, and then this happened. So yes, I have a weird assortment in my trunk, and some of it I’d be very glad to have if I needed it – plus I still don’t feel like putting it all away 🙂
Phil, yes it is good to hear from you. If you can, could you tell anything else about the map used in the search? did it come form the USDA or USFS? Does BLM do their own maps, I mean, I know at least one agency must be doing a pretty comprehensive map of the area, I would be interested in learning who this is, if anything to correct my own thinking about the situation and where to direct my concerns if I have them
for example I really would love to suggest the “you are here maps” but am not sure if this would have to be a joint project between agencies, or if it would be a usfs thing or even usda map, but the structure done by antoher agency? I dont know
Not being part of the SAR law enforcement group, but rather the investigative end, I have not been “gagged” with respect to the ongoing inquries. Out of respect for the ongoing independent investigations, of course, I will not be commenting on specific aspects of the case either right now.
That said, I would like to share some personal insight with regard to the media. Specifically, the Oregonian. And I’m certain this will not come as a surprise to any of you, but as someone who feels like one of the most often “misquoted” (literally and through “editorial inference”) persons involved in this investigation, I can tell you I have never been involved in a missing persons investigation that has been so media-generated (and I have been involved in upwards of 1500 missing persons cases over the past years).
Don’t get me wrong- the media can have a definite valuable role in sharing information with the public, but sharing “information” or “news” is the key here. Putting something on Page 1 that basically amounts to an extended editorial does not, in my book, qualify as “news.”
The Oregonian, in particular, also has a tendency (and I wish I could recall the correct terminology for it), but they have a tendency to “sandwich” editorial comments or observations, if you will, between quotes from, say, law enforcement officials in this case. The resulting effect is the written equivalent of whatever editorial comment appears in between two quoted statements (often out of context, to begin with) from one source, is the feeling, though or criticism being conveyed by the quoted person. Does that make sense? I know it’s late.
And despite how it may seem, I am not anti-media, just anti-inaccuracy. The media is often a valuable ally, especially during missing persons investigations, as they share information with the public to assist us in locating people safely, albeit usually in less critical circumstances as this.
sorry, that was meant to read feeling, thought, or criticism…
An acquaintance had to evacuate in an RV and rather wisely chose to take the RV along the back-country roads rather than the overly clogged freeway. Certain decisions become critical and tempers do flare in an overcrowded RV stuffed with pets and personalities and being driven along difficult back roads by a driver under great stress. They never passed by an open gas station or an operating ATM. Different things become important under different circumstances. So the “stash” under the spare tire, while obviously incomplete, is still not a bad idea. In some circumstances you might trade that entire jar of peanut butter for a half ounce of insect repellant!
LOS maps. Perhaps its unusual but LOS maps will become more and more important. Not just cell towers, but viewpoints, zoning issues, surveillance, etc. Someone does not have to know much about the details of an LOS map to realize the tremendous “nugget” that was being offered to the SAR people who had so far been dealing with a lot of low-grade ore. A 26 mile circle with the freeway depicted on it isn’t much help but with the back roads and particularly the back roads leading to the coast on it and their tributaries, you get a good tool. Even the receptionist at the SAR place should realize the value of the nugget.
I think there have been some allegations of the newspapers “not getting it right”. Good!! Any newspaper that waits until they get things absolutely right would be of about as much use as a SAR agency that waits for July to deal with the snow. Everyone must deal with uncertainty and incomplete information. I think the greatest gain that may come from the various reviews is the realization that separate agencies with separate terminology and formats for reports are not going to be working well anymore. Standardization and precision in communication become important. “Last known cell phone use” appears at first glance to be rather specific but as more information became available its meaning changed completely. A Road referred to as “Bear Camp Road” is in reality a complex maze of various designations and branches. And “searched Bear Camp Rd” can mean anything from went out and tried to search a portion of it to completed the search of its entire length to completed the search of its entire length and all reasonable detours and tributaries. A ‘search’ can be “noted that I saw no tire tracks at a particular turnoff and therefore conclude a certain tributary need not be searched right now” or a ‘search’ can be ‘I drove the road as far as I could but it was so demanding I couldn’t even look at the turnoffs’.
Its a lot of information that is being fed into the SAR centers and coordination is important.
One restaurant had the description of the vehicle posted in large letters even after it had been found. I’ve seen flyers posted about a “missing person” several weeks after a headline-making discovery that it was a voluntary departure to embark on a new life. Everyone “gets things wrong” because those who wait for something to be absolutely and totally correct are often a great threat to the success of the mission.
Ironically, when I had a conversation with an unnamed Oregonian reporter yesterday (who might have written the Friday night/Sat. am news story people have been referring to), I let him know I did not appreciate his “editorializing,” by adulterating what factual information my agency had provided to various reporters, in the spirit of transparency and open communication, which PPB is big on. I have to give him credit that this particular person was actually reasonable to deal with, and did, in fact, acknowledge that the sandwiched editorial comments were those of the Oregonian’s “own investigation,” despite the written inference that PPB was being critical of SAR operations, which, from the beginning, we have not commented on.
Detective Mike.
I do understand what your saying. I can’t remember any direct quotes I have read from you. But I completley understand what you mean.
Fools Gold – not disagreeing with the waiting til they get everything just right idea. However, in this case, the media has seemingly attempted to play the law enforcement/SAR agencies against one another, in order to get more play out of public emotion.
The other thing that many have commented on is the fact that, when any media outlet has reported certain information as “fact” or whatever they’re calling it, which is not refuted by the alleged “source,” that often seems to be taken as something along the lines of “silence = consent,” which could not be further from the truth.
340 – Det. Mike, it made perfect sense how you explained it, and I think you are correct that it’s not a surprise to a many people who have read the Oregonian even before this. There have been a few here such as Madeleine and Paul that know a bit about how the media works and have discussed it some, even Kati’s Dad mentioned it with reference to past stories, and it sounds like it really can be a double-edged sword.
I respect that you may not wish to answer this at this time (or maybe not even later), but I’ll put it out there just in case it is something you feel may be commented on even in general. Pages back on this very ongoing blog, there was some discussion about the media’s reporting that you were out sick on the day that information first came to your desk about this missing family. Since time is critical, many of us were a bit puzzled that there would not always be someone available to handle this sort of information in the absence of someone like yourself. If there is any light you can shed on this, I’d be interested. Again, it’s perfectly understood and respected if this is not something that you would like to address, especially with the other investigation in progress, but I couldn’t help but put it out there in case you do wish to comment.
In any case, it is very good to have you here, and I very much appreciated what you’ve had to say.
I think most would be understanding of the idea that, during an ongoing investigation, or even after it has seemed to slow down or resolve, “no comment” might equate to agreement with whatever information is floating around out there in the world. Again, couldn’t be further from the truth.
It’s just that our responsibilities obviously extend beyond correcting or feeding the media, including accurate and timely documentation of the incident, debriefing critical internal information, further follow-up, etc. Not to mention investigators’ other ongoing cases in which someone expects the same level of professional involvement and committment, even if it might not be such a high-profile case.
Sadly, the “silence = consent” idea is a powerful one, and I think many of us were guilty of that until we started hearing even just the murmur of objection from underneath the gag. That’s when the mind “re-opening” began to occur.
The media ain’t perfect but neither was the James Kim SAR effort. The media is a communication bridge between government and its master, the public. Allowing government to control what the media communicates is a bad idea. Libel and slander law does it well enough.
Maggie – How about I answer that somewhat generally. First of all, it is true that on Wed., 11/29 (which, someone pointed out to me today that I incorrectly noted as 11/28 in my report by accident, which would have been prior to the police report in San Fran even having been made)… on Wed. I was out sick, as reported in the Chronicle. However, as my report notes (which has already been made public), the missing person report wasn’t even made in San Fran until after normal business hrs., so I wouldn’t have known about it until the next day normally, unless someone specifically contacted me about it.
As for having people avail. 24/7 – we do, and I generally am. The “notification” to PPB was made by a San Fran police officer (who did a bang up job at initiating this missing persons case, in my opinion), who left a voicemail for me with an “FYI” message, generally advising me that a San Fran family had been reported missing and might be passing thru Portland on a roadtrip. He noted he would fax me a copy of their report to my office, which he did.
My office receives probably 250+ “FYI” calls or requests for outside agency assistance each year. Each one is reviewed as it comes in. Not one case gets by without being fully reviewed for viable information which might require our immediate or future assistance…..
James need not have died, that’s so damn sad and maddening to me. Geees, even just an ordinary guy like Joe had it right. Not in hindsight either.
One helicopter flying the BLM 34-8-36 road from the well known notoriously confusing Bear Camp fork on Friday Dec 1st or on the following day was all that was needed. Even a snowmobile woulda probably worked. If the Kims weren’t spotted the engine noise would have given them hope that help was near. James would not have felt compelled to set out on his fatal trek. Bloody hell!!
The investigations are all one sided governmental sponsored. Some balance is needed. Perhaps John Rachor, Eric Fuqu and Spencer Kim want to tell their stories in detail, publicly. Afterall they (and James) are the true heroes here. I wonder if any SAR or government official has considered asking them? …Dumb question!
The reason I knew about the San Fran officer’s call that night is because I DO take my responsibility seriously, and recognize that emergent situations happen round the clock. I happened to call and listen to my voicemails, as I often do, late in the evening, although, as I mentioned, it was an “FYI” message. I have a 24/7 pager, and if anyone has any concerns regarding missing persons related to the CIty of Portland, you can believe me when I say they do not hesitate to contact me at any hour of any day (either directly or thru our 24 hr dispatch center). Additionally, we always have a persons crimes (I am part of the Homicide/Assault Detail) supervisor on call, 24/7, 265 days a year.
oops….365 days/yr.
Kip – keep in mind I’m only referring to Maggie’s question, and any comments regarding the media have nothing to do with positions regarding SAR, which I am not qualified to comment on. I do agree with you that folks such as Fuqua, et al, are true heroes, to come forward when they did not have to. Nothing is ever meant to take away from their altruistic efforts.
Government (at least our agency) does not want to control the media – we just want what factual information we provide to be accurately reported. THe media is free to editorialize all they want, as long as they own it and don’t attribute it wrongly to someone else. That’s what free speech is all about, isn’t it?
350 – For somewhat generally, you really did answer it pretty specifically, and I appreciate that! Joe here has arranged through someone in your office, I believe, to have that report (I think it’s the same as you just referenced?) sent to me so that I may scan it and post it to share with the others here, so it’s good to hear that the information will be included. Thank you for shedding your light on this – it was one of those pieces that just didn’t sound quite right. I promise, that’s my last question for now, and I’m just very glad to hear as much of your perspectives as you care to share.
352 – Personally, I’d prefer a 265 day work year 😉 It’s fair to want accuracy, for better or for worse, in the media. I don’t think anyone can really argue with that.
Always glad to try and clear up questions – especially related to my responsibiities, and which have already been made public through my report (yes, same one). You’ll find it is basically a detailed, narrative chronology of my involvement from the start. Includes everything from how we were notified, everyone our agency had contact with, information that was received and investigated, right up to and including the specifics regarding the hotel which chose to invoke its privacy policy and how that transpired. I hope it provides some insight for everyone, given that it our job is fact-gathering, and we try to report our involvement professionally, thoroughly and objectively.
(357) Here Here!
the 265 days part
Power is flickering here during storm, time to turn off battery backup and computer before it blows up. Thanks for keeping open minds.
Thank you so much, Det. Mike. I look forward to receiving the report and getting it posted to share. As you can tell, we are all just wanting to understand – as factually as we can find – what all transpired in this case that has gripped so many of us and do whatever we can to help in the future. Sincerely, thank you very much.
Yes, power is flickering a bit here out in the outskirts as well… Have a good night!
[354&355].. Det Mike, I appreciate your responding and contributing openly your views here. Thank you.
I don’t know about ‘playing one agency against the other’ or not.
IF each and every agency were honest and forthright and made no attempt to shield themselves from scrutiny it would be not only unnecessary for the media to play one agency against the other, it would be impossible.
There was a death in the cold and damp. There is an inquiry underway. The inquiry, still at preliminary stages, appears to reveal that the death was an unnecessary one but not one resulting from any callous or overt acts. Signage issues, tree limbs, phone calls, maps, … things are being looked at but it seems the agencies may be paying more attention to the spotlight’s glare than to what the spotlight reveals.
A thought and a suggestion.
We, the general public, have no where to turn to get information on news events other than the news media. The news media has not lived up to their responsibility of reporting the facts, just the facts, ma’m. That is the reson myself and from the postings, most others here have turned here to try to get the facts without the ’embedded & misleading & disguised’ editoral comment and spin.
What we are seeing on Joe’s little blog here, I think, as I am open to being corrected if I am wrong, something of a novelity here – people of a factions of an event which had made the news interacting with each other, in a fashion fairly unmonitored (don’t take offense Joe, am getting ready to explain) other the the good judgement of the person whose blog this is and each individual and then the group itself. I think we’ve done a pretty good job of keeping things civil & coming up with some good questions and suggestions and ideas.
As Katie was presented with a list of questions derived from this blog, once all of the reports are in, those who of their own free will have joined us here, who were involved in the this tragedy, would they also be willing to submit to a list of questions derived from this blog?
The list of questions being gathered & editied before presentation in the same manner which the questions to Katie was submitted.
We, the public, KNOW the media isn’t always feeding us the unbiasised truth, but we have had no where else to turn.
In doing this it would servie purpose on both sides – we would get our news uneditied, unspun, the other side can have what they have to say put out there to the public unedited and unspun.
I hesitiate to suggest this as I’m not able to do any of the actual work in this, but at the same time, I think it’s ok to throw it out there should others choose to.
And to those officials involved in this case, thank each and every one of you for coming here.
Correction: we the public know the news medis ISN’T always feeding us the unbiased unspun facts, but UNTIL now, we’ve have no where else to turn to get our news
Phil, at 326, thanks for the insight, but I have a question below.
“The next day, Fuqua called state police at 5:49 p.m. (Saturday), saying he had information about the exact time of the Kims’ last cell phone transmission, and that it was within 26 miles of the company’s Glendale cell tower in the direction of the “mountains going toward the coast.”
The Portland detective, Michael Weinstein, wrote in a report that the first contact he received about Fuqua came that evening. Weinstein passed that information to state police, and by the next morning, searchers were meeting with Fuqua and poring over maps he provided highlighting areas of cell coverage.” Oregonian and GR
Phil at 326
“They insisted that all of us work as if it was our family lost out there. Then there is the fact that they stayed late into the night before leaving the operation in the hands of the night shift, and were there before everyone else in the morning. So yes, Anderson’s tears were real, and they were far from the only tears in the command post that day. Bottom line is that I would pick them to manage a search for my children anytime.”
What did the “night shift” do with the cell phone map or the cellphone information during the 12 hours from 2000 Saturday night until the 0800 meeting and subsequent 1100 meeting with Fuqua on Sunday? My guess is “Nothing”. ….and if I am right, that is what is wrong with your search.
This might be fixed by having an expert available (24/7) from a state agency or private agency to help you with collecting and interpreting this technical information on future searches. (like a radiologist who can interpret Xray films 24/7) That is until the expertise is available routinely at the county level. This info is not easily retrievable, I think we heard it takes hours of pouring over files in the cell phone office.
Who was in charge of the “night shift”? I hope it was the 2nd or 3rd most experienced SAR person, who could collect, eval the intel and plan the next days activities to start at first light or dispatch assets during the night. My guess is that this was the case. If it was some well meaning volunteers, who recorded phone calls, answered media, made coffee, then that is not so good.
For Det Mike, thanks for participating– I too was happy to see how fast this search formed on Thursday and Friday. You and the SF police were in no small part responsible for that. Did you add any context to the cell phone engineer info, when transmitted to the State Police? Did you know if Fuqua could draw a map of likely locations of last cell phone use? Does this rise to the top of the pile of tips? Is it (aside from an eyewitness sighting beyond the last known point on the expected route of travel) the best available tip? The reason I ask is because the Jo Co SAR seems to have treated it in a slow, methodical manner.
Thanks.
Well I agree there is a fine line between editorializing and presenting context. I think the Oregonian is doing just fine. I don’t want them to publish the GP Chronology without providing some context. They tell us what is new and changed from past stories and they can correct past factual inaccuracies.
The agencies have their own press spokesmen if they want to clear up specific items. If they don’t, then the public is left hanging and trying to keep an open mind. Or they can come to Joe Ducks blog and get the “ground truth”!!! or the “groundup truth”.
368.
bamadad, you write so well, like so many on this forum. I have to say you have summed up what worries me, in particular, about the timeline of what happened with Eric’s info. I thank you, cause now I dont have to try to forumlate this thought myself as I had the exact same question, about the timeline. Though, it probably comes through pretty clearly in my posts already.
Detective,
I’m glad your here. You also write very well and I’m glad to read your informative responses.
I especially like the thought of working 265 days a year though!
(369) 😆 “groundup truth”
Pretty soon we’ll put it in the coffee grinder with some Dutch Brothers . . . . Speaking of which, I’m definitely ready for another cup of jo
me too angela….me too.
349 – Kip, will all due respect, libel and slander laws don’t keep the media from at times misreporting information. I wouldn’t want a censored media, of course, just one that takes responsibility for what they print. And the public needs to hold them accountable when their personal views are incorporated into news stories as fact.
LE agencies, for example, very often cannot comment on an ongoing investigation, so media will often play the game of throwing things out there and seeing what sticks. Or they go with an angle that is designed to provoke a response that people are simply not free to make at the time. As Detective Mike alluded to, the “no comment” is interpreted as “Aha! It must be true”. I guess people are used to seeing the bad guys say this on TV when confronted with truth.
At tmes the media can be used as pawns by less than savory individuals or groups who have an axe to grind. On the other hand, I’ve seen some excellent investigative reporting that shed light where others couldn’t, reporting at its best. Bottom line, opinions belong in editorials that are clearly marked as such, not woven into news stories.
(368)
I would like to address the point about pouring over cell phone records. The records for all cell phone traffic are typically called Call Detail Records (CDR) and there is also low level switch data typically managed by the engineering groups within a cell phone provider.
These records are not paper records; these records are rows of data within databases. The issue with any of the switch data, and/or call detail records is the sheer volume of them. They are stored in a mechanism that is designed for billing processing, diagnostics, etc. So to process through the information takes a long time even for computers.
To put the size of it into perspective think about how many people have bank accounts in the USA. Think about how many banking transactions each account holder does every day. Think about how much work it would be for someone to process information out of the transactions just in the ATM networks (separate companies, etc).
Ok now let’s compare to cellular. There are twice as many people in the USA that have cellphones than have bank accounts! Approximately 100 million plus have banks accounts – About 230 million people have cellphones. Now think about how many text messages, phone calls, etc are performed by each person each day. You are talking about billions and billions of transactions. Now think about the process of searching through days of those records with computers to find message traffic that is marked with the signature of a particular cellphone.
It just is a huge data problem and takes a long time to process it. BTW – since the platform typically isn’t designed to handle this type of request it takes up a lot of valuable resource that the cellphone provider doesn’t have. While they are processing a data search it takes away from the computing power they need to effectively run their networks.
Now this is a generalization of the process and some cellphone providers might have different capabilities but I hope this provides some insight to the size of the issue when deal with cellphone data.
Det Mike – thank you for the insight and reminders. I can barely begin to imagine working on over 1500 missing persons cases and what that must do to your psyche. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to provide additional insight and perspective (unless you can really pull off that 265 days, then maybe not so busy 🙂 )
Phil at 335– excellent comments, thank you very much. Supports previous JoCoSAR statements and provides some perspective on the road network off Bear Camp== first time I have heard there are over 160 spur roads. I have seen the Google Earth map from early on and saw the maze. That is why I have focused on the cell phone map– it just narrowed the box quite a bit with X number of intersections (57 or so I think) but I still don’t have a handle on how much.
Glenn
Good Morning!
Thank you for that database info. If I may read between your lines: Are you saying that Eric’s initial call was that he had an idea to go through this data, however he had not done so at that point? That it wasn’t until late Saturday that he had gone through the enormous task that you described and that was the second call? Something like, Yes, my idea did pan out and I do have some data
(378) Hard to say. I am not sure how many switches he had to search or if Edge has their data in one central repository. He probably started searching immediately it just takes an enormous amount of time to process that much data. Eric sounds pretty resourceful and I think he began immediately
I hope Eric posts here so we can hear directly from him.
(377) I think it also translates into over 400 miles of roads. Maybe in addition to the skull and crossbones on the sign we should add:
Pack Mules are suggested to be used on these routes.
of course not to be confused with the lurking PacMule(s) that hang around here. 🙂
Angela,
if I may read between the lines of the lines you think glenn may be reading into the timeline. 🙂
Its my hypothesis, that eric had the ping information when he made the first call (and had the are narrowed down but not a map). Downtrodden by the response, realized he needed to do a line of site map (or something specific like thiis) and called back later.
I wonder if eric even had the best knowledge to do this kind of map, found help, learned quickly, or what.
just a hypothesis, extraordinary either way to me.
Hopefully we hear from eric one day soon!
(379) and (381) Yes, Eric defintiely sounds persistent. It’s funny, when you first mentioned line of sight mapping I had this visual of just looking for what you could see – sounded so easy. Finally it dawned on me that you weren’t at the spot looking out, you were looking at the map calculating what you could see from that spot. (yes, I can be so slow sometimes) Still sounded pretty simple – just draw a line. It’s amazing how 2-D we can be at times!! Topo – oops not just a line! Just trying to trace the Peavine road on the internet the other night was difficult and I know that was just the tip of the iceberg.
Angela,
Well…your post gets at one of the fundamental reasons gis is still a growing discipline and not always properly funded or understood by decision makers in government agencies. Many people are unaware of what we do and what analysis capabilties gis software has, and what level of training professionals need to be able to operate at a certain level.
I understand this though…and certainly wasn’t expecting people to follow me when I was ranting about it 3 pages ago!
ps. eric may have used something other than gis to create his map (or someone did for him or whatever). just commenting on our past discussion of the line of sight map!
Mapper (383) – And thank you so much for your expertise and plain language in explaining so much of this. With your help here on this blog I’m at least beginning to understand how little I know 🙂
Glenn Cmt 375 thanks. I knew it was difficult. I hope a cell phone engineer could tell us, how many hours it would take from receipt of the cellphone number to drawing up a map. Given the Kim example– I am just guessing but I think around 6-15 hours. Mr Fuqua had some help from another engineer putting this all together. But this would have to done by a mosaic of providers along the route of travel. Complicated and expensive.
I am trying to figure out if this could be a standard of practice for every SAR in a similar situation.
One sad thing is that this blog has not drawn one anonymous SAR professional from outside Southern Oregon to provide some facts. Maybe this is just the exceptional set of circumstances.
Angela,
Thanks. I’m still learning about my own field every day! As mentioned before I have been at this for quite a few years and I didn’t make my first line of sight map until last summer, as it is not really a common or neccessary application unless you work with that kind of thing regularly.
I’m very curious about Eric’s methods and if it is what I think it is.
Glenn Cmt 375 thanks. I knew it was difficult. I hope a cell phone engineer could tell us how many hours it would take from receipt of the cellphone number to drawing up a map. Given the Kim example– I am just guessing but I think around 6-12 hours. Mr Fuqua had some help from another engineer putting this all together. But this would have to done by each provider along the route of travel. Complicated and expensive.
I am trying to figure out if this could be a standard of practice for every SAR in a similar situation.
One sad thing is that this blog has not drawn one anonymous SAR professional from outside Southern Oregon to provide some facts. Maybe this is just the exceptional set of circumstances.
bamadad,
I could give you pretty specific details about the time it would take to drawing up this kind of map, and if it could be implemented in most governments. The variable is really the cell information (pings and coordinates of the tower)
But I guess I am just waiting to hear more first before I comment too much on it.
Kati’s blog…1/5/07…Six months ago my husband made post-holiday vacation plans for me and the family. We had a tradition of working the family business on X-mas eve, participating in the obligatory holiday family rituals, and then enjoying some post-ritual relaxation. Unfortunately, my husband was unable to fulfill the familial obligations this year. However, the vacation was paid for in-full and my children and I certainly merited some post-holiday relaxation.
The trip was great. The relaxation blissful. The return trip was less than ideal. A 5-hour delay on the first leg of our return meant that we missed all of our connecting flights. A diaper shortage, surplus of exhaustion, incompetent and surly (alternately) AA reps, and it all added up to 36 hours of holiday travel misery. Luckily, when we missed our return flight to SFO by 7 minutes, my travelmates and I were able to secure a complimentary room at the LAX La Quinta. Although our lost luggage meant that we lacked essentials like toothpaste and clean underwear, the midnight – 3:45 am slumber was quite refreshing.
My only complaint was the attitude of Jose, the off-hours manager, who insisted on knowing the destination of my 4am elevator ride. He made sure I was aware that access to both the exercise room and the pool was prohibited in the middle of the night .
Luckily, this was all made up for by Cognac, the friendly and adorable off-hours front desk person who sent me down to the corner AM PM for juice and milk for my jet-lagged babies. Clued in by the guy begging for hotdog money and multiple car horn honks, I’m pretty sure that few non-hooker ladies make the same early-morning supply run. Unfortunately, I only had a $50 bill and the AM PM clerk refused to accept a large bill for my meager purchases.
Sad but safe, I returned to the La Quinta to prepare myself for the final leg of my trip back home.
At first I was skeptical of my ability to return unharmed; but, upon my departure, Cognac had assured me that he had my back. True to his word, he was waiting out front for me when I returned to the hotel. Not only that, but, since I’d only been able to purchase milk (juice and bottled water denied on account of my lack of small bills), Cognac brought fresh bottled water up to the room, free of charge.
The La Quinta’ll never make my short list of must-see sights in LA, but I’ll always have fond memories of Cognac and his midnight water run for me and my travel-weary babes.
377- FYI there is 160 FORREST SERVICES roads ONLY, which does not count the BLM roads up there and that is what they were actually found on…..BTW GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD Morning Blog!!
Mapper, thanks.
http://www.travelbygps.com/articles/tracking.php
Here is a current article of some interest on cell phone tracking. Doesn’t really answer the SAR usage question.
I’ve noted one apparently glaring deficiency. Nowhere have I found in the GR anything that was a ‘The Story So Far’ sort of summary for SAR personnel or the media to get brought up to speed on the situation. There didn’t seem to be any status reports generated. No one prepared and issued ‘asset utilization summaries’ or the like. There seems to be a lack of ‘snapshots’ showing what teams were available, what were they tasked to and what was happening. As the locus of control shifted from the coastal county to Josephine County, did the SAR coordinator get a briefing or update of any sort? Did the personnel get a “the story so far” type of summary or where they all expected to either remember things or repetitively look them up all the time?
Name, vehicle description, last known point of contact, last known cell use, cell numbers, intended destination. All this stuff probably changes or gets corrupted with transmission to new people. Avoiding constant errors by having an official ‘update’ seems a good thing to do.
bamadad.
well, this is where you start to see the huge disparity between agencies with funding and without. yes, all phones will have gps….and when the call comes into 911 some call centers will be ready and some wont (automatically the call will show up on a map in the call center)….this is geocoding-heavy. Many of us in gis have worked to get the databases ready for when this is all in full swing (actually driving around with laptops..yes, yours truly, recording or making sure addresses are correctly recorded in the gis data)
for now, many times a line of sight map will need to be created, and its my opinion — the expertise lies with the cell phone provider to get the ping data.
the expertise to make the map lies with gis people or cartographers, often employed by the very agencies in question here.
here is a link that speaks of line of sight mapping
http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume18/communications2.html
now… I feel I must stop speaking about this, as I do not want to insert my idea into what should happen too much 🙂
its been awhile since i was working in the e911 area, most of the time I work now with hydrology and geology, and less with municipal gis so I just dont want to insult the people who are working hard in this area more recently (like eric).
mapper,,,
I wonder if various computer programs already in existence might have helped. What about movie “sets” wherein a model is computerized and then a viewpoint is changed. The programs are all set up to have POV be correct for objects and terrain. Perhaps existing algorithms would have made the task easier or faster?
386- I agree Barnadad – some objective SAR professionals
would be very helpful to have.
I must say again that for me the main issue is not blame,
and everyone makes mistakes.
Some mistakes are more innocent and understandable,
‘people truly didn’t know better’.
But so far, some mistakes seem more massive and were
made by people who should have known better.
I don’t care who made the mistakes. I care that the mistakes
were made that contributed to a family’s long, harrowing
ordeal and suffering. Suffering that almost led to all of
their deaths.
‘All the spur roads have been checked? Josephine County is
going to end the search?’
What! Hello?
I don’t plan on attacking anyone – no matter how big their
mistakes were.
But that doesn’t mean that the mistakes were not huge,
and at this point, seemingly gross and negligent.
I’ve been feeling choked by this kind of ‘favoritism
protectionism’, and it doesn’t help anyone to protect
them from some major mistakes they made. I won’t be harsh, but they won’t really learn, if we all go ‘ooooh, it’s
okay, didn’t mean to make mistakes…”
The explanations I’ve heard so far have been very weak.
‘There were tire tracks everywhere.’ Not when John James
first saw them. ‘They were farther down that road than
almost anyone had been before…’ So? Sounds like excuses
to me.
I’m not going to rake anyone over the coals.
I know people tried.
And Phil I know people cared, especially toward the end
of the search after Kati and the girls were found. But
there seems to be something very lacking in the ‘courtesy
checking of roads’. And you know who was in charge of that
at the time.
Again – I will wait. I will not be personally harsh.
But I don’t think the Sheriff’s report is going to clear
this ‘road’. Maybe it will.
I would love to have it all explained! 🙂
No hard feelings, I would feel this way no matter who
was ‘repsonsible’.
And Maggie, I can’t not say these things at this time.
I will wait to decide ultimately what I really think.
But I can’t hide the way I’m feeling now.
State Officer Powers wouldn’t just say those things,
that was a very important call…
Well, Fools Gold,
I am not sure your experience in this area as you sound quite knowledgable.
All I can say is, good raster elevation data and the observer point (in this case, the cell tower) and gis spatial analyst extension (given the data was accurate and already downloaded, projected, etc). It would take me about ….10 minutes at the most to come up with something reasonably accurate.
The resulting map would have two colors… a binary map. The cells would represent “true” or “false” true being….yes this in line of sight.
I actually did a project to see how accurate this method is. Its not perfect. but quick and better than searching 2000 sq. miles.
eric may have spent a little extra time to create something with degrees of confidnece (ie. true, truer, truest)
Ersi should be paying me for so heavily touting their product! 🙂
now i really should be quiet! 🙂
sorry, ESRI
I want to say that I’ve just now looked at the photos that were taken of the ‘intersection’ at which it appears the Kims took a fateful ‘detour’ onto a logging road by going to the right when they should have continued straight ahead into rising terrain on the narrower route to the coast.
I can truly state that even now, knowing full well which is the correct route to the coast and seeing the signage in a photo taken in clear weather and in daylight, I would still think the wide, inviding and slightly descending route would appear to me to be the favorable route and would appear to me to be the ‘main road’.
So I can’t really say that in a snow storm with the windshield perhaps obscured by snow, ice and condensation, at night, under stress and after a long day, I can’t in any way at all fault someone for making the same choice I would make now in daylight, in clear weather and knowing the situation.
(384) The cellphone providers typically have solid mapping capabilities within their organizations unless they are a MVNO type operation. They need the mapping capability for spectrum coverage, tower coverage maps, etc…they are quite sophisticated in their mapping capability.
glenn,
well I have asked this question several times with no real responses. I am glad that they do. But if they dont, all I am saying is there are people in house that can do this kind of thing too.
RRR – I’m sorry. I’m sure you probably don’t like my
post. I am fond of you – and JoCoSAR.
It really isn’t personal for me. But I really am upset
by these mistakes as they seem to be revealed so far,
from a number of sources.
Again, I would be upset with these mistakes, no matter
who made them.
Ultimately we will know more, and this all too shall pass…
But I just can’t hide my feelings.
403- I have learned to have tough skin, I may comment to my computer screen and then let it slide….No hard feelings.
glenn,
In fact, it doesn’t matter to me who does the map, as the people doing maps at the cell phone company are the same kinds of people who would be working for the county either as engineers of map makers.
what matters to me, is that there is a bridge of communication. what has bothered me, and its an assumption, is the timeline, and if joco fully utilized their in house gis people to help communicate the info eric was giving to them.
and truly, it is in the past. in fact I am much more interested in what can be learned for the future.
RRR
I am fond of you too. I hope this is not terribly offensive as I do feel I am speaking out of bounds right now, and I dont have the facts. I do hope you will forgive my speculation!
406- I am telling ya’ll don’t be tip toeing around, we have thick skin and can take it…We don’t want you to feel as if you can express yourself freely and then have to apologize for your words…We can take it and we will let you know equally what we think……Fair enough 🙂
R3
your a better human than myself! I simply dont like to be wrong so I would rather not say anything!
the truth is, no matter what happend as I have said before, I understand this is not normal or something done regularly. I am not interested in placing blame on an under funded county, with sincere volunteers and professionals.
I’m much more interested in some low-tech “you are here maps” !
But I have been drawn into commenting on some of these things as I do have some experience with them.
I have gotten it out of my system for the most part.
I won’t harp on it. I just needed to do that.
Did I hear the Breakfast bell ring…..
I think so! 🙂
I will be interested in hearing more of your guys’
explanations. I know there are a lot of spur roads, but
isn’t 34-8-36 like ‘the one’ that people get mixed up
on the most if they’re trying to take Bear Camp to the
coast?
I know you probably won’t be able to answer that! 🙂
Is there or are there standard procedure(s) for the
order in which those roads are cleared?
Have you eaten breakfast?
I liked the part mapper about you ending up wearing those
clothes in the back of your car, that have been left there
for that other reason… I bet you’d still look cute! 🙂
412- As for the calls that have been “recorded” for the area there has only been ONE from memory that was on that particular road…You see most calls are “Help I am suck send a tow truck” not “Help I have lost my family and I think they MAY be up there”….When Dave was qouted the 34 something calls are calls for service not always a search…Does that help???
As for a standard for clearing roads it all depends on the information that is given to us….ie location of travel, each case is totaly different so then the order of how roads are “cleared’ is ALWAYS different….No two SAR calls are EVER the same across the board weather it is a BC call or a RIver rescue call…..
I am in the process of eating breakfast!! Had to cook it first….
Gayle
just got around to reading the copied text from katis blog. She is a great writer and quite funny! She is really keeping her sense of humor! I know in times past for me too, it was certainly helpful in getting me through.
Lisa,
hahahah. I was going to elaborate on the stuff that is left in the trunk of my car but with the attention this blog has been getting I thought maybe not everyone wants the image of a woman walking out of the forest wearing shorts over her jeans and a tank top on her head, as most of the stuff left in my trunk, with the exception of my winter coat is from summer as well! but, we do what we must to keep warm right!? I would also be burning magazines from 2004 and probably throwing a few high heels into the fire along with the mags.
hahah. I guess I should put some more appropriate gear into the car, but most of my driving is suburban as of late.
Madeleine – I liked that about how dogs have owners, cats
have staff! That is so true! My 16 to be 17 in April, orange
kitty likes me to always pour his food fresh right in front
of him, and he likes me to pet him while he eats! He is
very high maintenance!
I know that is off topic, but I thought I would say something lighter! 🙂
RRR – Whatcha eatin and are the crown vics still there? lol
416- Some slop! No I think that they got washed away in the rain last night…..
You had rain and the Wimer area has snow.
418- Very nice did you pull out your ski’s????
414- mapper, that just gets even better!
Not enough for that but the “muddin” is a kick in the ass! There are some BLM areas out here by my house that are perfect for that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/05/AR2007010501736.html
Lisa/396: I am not going into just how much editorializing you are doing in that entry except to say it is considerable. We don’t have all the facts yet but you seem to have reached multiple conclusions.
What I will ask is this: Could you PLEASE do something about your “wrap” and/or use of the return key ?? You entries are harder to read because they are formatted so strangely and run on like mega-Haiku’s. I don’t see this happening with anyone else so I can only assume you type about 5 words and then hit your return key. I know, I know, it is (and I concede) an exceedingly minor point, but I suspect I’m not the only person who it bugs.
RRR (407): – You rock RRRat!
It is very clear to me how hard the Josephine County SAR team worked on the Kim search. I wish the Sheriff’s report could show how unfair some of the reporting appears to be on this as well as a lot of the early comments here at the blog.
I know the Oregonian has been using the blog to find information and sources but I sure wish they’d check in with comments because in this format people can correct things quickly. One-way news media has been unfair to people and to the facts.
It does appear to me that information flow could have been much faster making better use of simple internet tools to collect and distribute info as it came in. I remember when the first tips came in from Edge – why didn’t that tip immediately refocus the search?
Also why don’t state agencies or even Sheriff’s offices have simple online environments (blog/forum/web posts/alert emails) to keep interested parties informed of developments? The time to set these things up, even by a non-technical person, is under one hour.
Why so little coordination with Carson Helicopters? It feels to me like there were dozens of independent searches going on here: Portland Police / Air Natl Guard / several State agencies / Curry Counties / Josephine County. On top of that there were the independent efforts by Fuqua and Rachor which were key to finding the Kims.
All of this info could have flowed into a central place and been seen by all involved in the search and non-confidential stuff seen by the public.
RRR
I dont know if I am speechless because of that article (422) or if its because I’ve hardly stopped posting since last night.
422- Wow. I just read that, and I am crying…
What a powerful letter from Spencer Kim, James’Dad.
It really sums it up so well, and even adds more
information (about media helicopters, etc.) that
we did not know here…
You can tell what a remarkable man he is, and you
can feel his love for James…
Thank you, Mapper and Maggie, for your kind welcome.
Three quick comments I would like to make….first a question.
On the coast there is a radio channel one can tune to for
current weather information. Does such a service exist on
I-5?
Second…although we are nearing the end of the current solar minimum, there was a series of Xclass flares that occurred in early December. I strongly suspect that this activity may have been a factor in this tragedy…or, at least, in the way many people responded to this tragedy.
About the media…I was involved a few years ago with an article that was published in a well-known and respected magazine…written by a writer I very much admire. Even
though he and I exchanged several emails, had two phone conversations, and a follow-up phone conversation with the fact-checker…there were still some problems with the published article. Not defending the media here…just noting that even when people are trying *very* hard to be
accurate, misunderstandings can and do occur.
Nancy
423- Paul – don’t talk to me that way. I don’t tell you
what to do with your opinions. And I don’t care what you
think of mine.
428- This is a blog not an article.
😀 Attention 😀
Thanks RRR for this link to letter by Spencer Kim, father of James. It is a very articulate outline of his thoughts:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/05/AR2007010501736.html
428/Lisa. You are right. We are entitled to our opinions that what makes living in America so great. Everyone does not need to agree with what we say but it’s our right to say them. I don’t like what the KKK has so say but they are entitled to their opinions. No I’m comparing you to the KKK at all. I am making a point that we can all say what we want.
422/RRR: Great post, thank you. Well, we know how he feels about it…many of the same issues as have been brought up here.
paul, joe
do you ever wonder how often we have been unofficially quoted here?
not saying spencer used us a source….its just sometimes odd as some of the things I read cover this blog like an outline.
434.
joe is this what you were getting at with mentioning the oregonian in your above post?
434- His comments are from him…However what you all comment on here is from what “research” you all have done…..
(429) Lisa sorry I concur with Paul’s request about hitting the return button. Your posts are typically long and although very worthwhile do make the reading of the rest entries somewhat tedious at times.
I would suggest you just let the word wrap features of the edit window do its thing and just hit return at the end of paragraphs.
I also think a lot of us had higher expectations regarding the GR. We need more information and until we have all the reports all we are going to be able to do is speculate. I haven’t posted much because I am still waiting for concrete information that can lead to answers.
436. I’m not sure I follow you….
(431) We should be talking to Spencer as well. I hope he makes a post here some day. We could really use his input for our ideas.
438- He may sound similar because we are all reading the same info to make statments like that…..He may be reading ALL the same blogs and articles and so forth out on the net as we are and has drawn his own conclusion from those and from living the search himself…..
WHERE AS what we have posted on here we have ALSO gathered from info on the web and so forth….
Any clearer??
439.
spencers letter certainly was well written, I wonder what his future plans are, as he seems to really be focusing on doing something, and he sure seems to have wealth to back it up.
437/Glenn: Thank you Glenn.
431/Joe – I think it is very telling that RRR was the first to put up the Washington Post link. It speaks well to her desire for transparency and an open and honest forum, shows a lot of class and character.
428/Nancy: I am not aware of an FM/AM channel in that corridor like that, but many of the Saab’s I have been in have WB/Weather Band on their radios and I am relatively sure it is active down there. RRR or Joe may be able to verify or disput e that and, of course, it is possible their Saab did NOT have WB.
440 yes, I thought you meant that but wasn’t sure. However, in our beginnings here….it seemed like that first very critical article from the oregonian was fueled by us….just specualtion and wondering if anyone else had wondered about this.
437- I will try to not to hit the return button. I some of my longer posts seem longer because of that and I like to use spacing. I was an English Major, and I write poetry. I think now I naturally prefer paragraphs that are shorter in width. To me, they are easier to read than big wide blocks that go on, and on, with no spacing.
But please, remember what the real priorities are of these situation. Please remember what’s really important.
And by all means, don’t read my posts if you don’t want to.
RRR. Is there anything that the searchers from Mt Hood learned from the Kim search from you guys? I’d be interested in knowing. You may have alredy discussed this and if you have I hope you don’t mind doing it again.
444- typo – “I think some of my longer posts…”
445- I personally haven’t heard anything….I am sure there are some things they have learned there are always things we learn from OTHER searches that we can apply in our line of work
447- I have to say though with all the media coverage I am sure they learned to handle themselves BETTER with media then we did…I have not HEARD that just a speculation…Also I have NEVER heard of PINGS used as much as we have in the last month…AGAIN ALL SPECULATION
😀 Attention 😀
To search the blog for Kim Story items click on Kim Story tab at the TOP of the blog. Go to the comment page or item you want.
To search within comment pages hit “Control F” and then type in the words or commenter you are looking for. Depending on your browser use “find again” or “Next / Previous” to find the same word again in the page.
443/Mapper – I have wondered that too.
439/Mapper – Yes, this is important…I think it is good to reiterate a few things about Josephine County, it is – relatively – sparsely populated. It has limited financial resources. A search of this scale and complexity just does not happen very often down there. The financial resources to do things they would probably like to do regarding SAR may not exist. A resource like James’ father could make possible changes that might not occur otherwise.
448/RRR – The speculation makes sense. I had never heard of pings before but they were used quite a bit and all over the news. Thx for the info.
450 – agree. not sure of spencers intentions, but agree that is worth reiterating.
448. makes sense to me too
I would still like to know whose responsibility it was to flip those signs over that said “Road IS closed” on the back of them (the 4 signs that say “Road May be closed by snow”). I would also like to know when, in general, they are flipped over…is it driven by the calendar ?; is it driven by snow on Bear Camp summit?; is there a defined criteria? That is a crucial element in my mind, and one that readily could have saved a life. It is neither gray nor subject to Oregonian interpretation or manipulation – you can see it in the photos on photobucket.
who were the aviation authorities for this SAR operation?
448/RRR: I think it is fair to say they HAVE had much more media experience PRIOR to the recent Hood tragedy. Mt. Hood Search and Rescue is in the news in Portland on a semi-regular basis. Due to it being one of the most popular climbing Mtns. in the U.S., folks get lost up there all the time. It speaks to the respective population densities, too, that they would have far more experience in handling the media than you.
MattMan- Could you email me please….RogueRiverRat78@excite.com
Now I feel uncomfortable, like I can’t be myself, so I will have to go… bye
457- Ok that is a little ridiculous….That is what I was talking about, we want to hear imput good or bad….
Mapper: I’ve wondered about how much this info is used but don’t really know. The stats indicate a lot more views than comments – page views seem to be running about 10 page views for each comment.
Paul: Yes, I have been completely impressed with the Josephine County folks we’ve heard from here. It’s too bad the Sheriff’s association has told many of the deputies not to speak here because that could quickly help clear up the reporting confusion that is making Oregon look bad.
Lost in this search for a “smoking gun” is the fact that there are almost always mistakes made by all parties involved in a tragedy. The Kims made several, national officials made some, Oregon officials, Local, etc, etc. We all make mistakes every day.
Usually these mistakes have little consequence, but but sometimes they combine into a tragic outcome. I’m trying to avoid getting all wrapped up in finding the “key mistake” and think about how information could have flowed more smoothly and quickly. It’s not even clear that would have saved James Kim but it might have helped.
457/Lisa. Don’t go, I want to hear your comments. I don’t care if folks don’t like how you format your blog – who gives a rip as long as you get the info out. Stay and speak your mind.
Joe,
very well put. there is some REALLY great writing going on here the past day or so! I keep saying that. I agree with you very much, about the multiple issues at every level….and that communication flow is a very good place to focus energy.
that includes you lisa, now get back here.
457/Lisa: I think that is a complete and startling over-reaction to my post 424, as was your response in 429.
From Mr. Kims’s article: aviation authorities opened search area air space up to media – what kind of lunacy is that?
Man, oh, man.
I think Spencer Kim was writing from his own experience and opinion, I think the fact that we’ve hit so much of the flaws he mentioned is our quest for the truth and facts & the back & forth, correcting this or that, clarifing, all the input to get to facts.
Fracnes,
yes, the aviation/media thing. I think i was too stunned by that tidbit to process the information as of yet. lunacy, good word. though not an area I know much about (airspace) will listen with interest to anything more we hear about this!
Wow, you all have been busy since I finally fell asleep last night. So good morning!
422 – RRR, thank you for that link to Spencer Kim’s article. Hopefully he will be able to make some changes since he definitely seems like a man with some influence.
428 – Nancy, I think the radio channel in the area has been suggested since this tragedy, but I don’t think it exists. It is a good idea, though. Your experience with the media makes sense – and that’s why I think it is important not to treat much as absolute gospel.
434, 443 etc – Yes, I’ve wondered about that, too, how often things are read here by the media. Interesting!
It looks like some of the numbers up above are off by one when people referenced? (like 417 & 418 / 427 & 423 – can clearly tell what’s being referenced, but the post number is one off?) Anyway, it seems to have fixed itself. Just one of those curiosities.
Now that I’m almost caught up (of course there probably have been more posts while typing this), I getting some coffee and then going to wait to pounce on the mailman who may have the police report for me to scan for you fine folks. Likely Monday, but sometimes mail is fast.
(444) I love your posts!!!! I just think it is easer to read the way you are doing it now. Thanks otherwise it looks like your trying to dominate the comments.
Thanks for trying to accomodate. I understand your English major side, my wife is the same way and I try to be however in the world of email, texting, and blogging all of the formalities of proper English writing unfortunately take a second seat including grammer and spelling.
You should see how tough I am with our children and their mis-use of the language during instant messaging. My 11 year old says but it I can words with less characters – yeah that worked until I had her explain KOOL instead of Cool. But anyway…I think you know what I mean.
Spencer Kim:
… aviation authorities acquiesced to media requests to relax restrictions and allowed low-altitude media flights in the area while the aerial search was still underway. This untimely and irrational decision caused many rescue helicopters to abandon their operations for one full afternoon due to dangerous conditions created by media airplanes
This was news to me – did I miss this in the Oregonian reporting this? It seems like a *very questionable omission* by the Oregonian and local news if they failed to report that media aircraft were interfering with search aircraft.
Anybody know if this happened before or after the car was found?
465 – “I getting some coffee” ?!?! Clearly I need some.
maggie!
your right…I just checked and in the last few minutes (or is it hours, man i have been sitting here too long but am enjoying sitting here after a long week!) the post numbers have changed and I dont know why.
thanks for taking on the scanning, your so nice to us.
Fool’s Gold at 146) said: I . . . question just WHY that military style search did not take place? It appears to me to be an ANG pissing contest about ‘we fly in airspace that we own and don’t share it with privately chartered helicopters’. The mission seems to have been scheduled but not flown. SOMETHING happened. And you seem upset if I point the inquiry at the ANG.
Let’s take the example of a squad of police officers responding to an emergency. Do these officers open the scene to any civilian who wants to wander in and help? No, they don’t. Instead, they secure the area and exclude anyone who didn’t belong there. Otherwise they simply couldn’t do their job.
Same thing here – when you call in the military, you get a full-scale, no-nonsense, highly-trained, experienced, and fully-focused response. Here, the State of Oregon was prepared to send a Blackhawk helicopter with four sets of eyes over the search areas soon as 12:30 p.m. on Saturday. As we know, that didn’t happen. But what you propose would be unsafe and detract fromthe search and, without air traffic control, completely unworkable.
Lisa, I too LIKE your posts and don’t want you to leave. There are a lot of post on here and scrolling back & forth, when you post a long post, it can double and sometimes triple the scrolling just to read it. Especially when I’m on the laptop which only has a 15 in. screen.
OK, now you can correct me for all of my grammar & typo’s, OK? I make a lot. Please don’t be upset.
467/Joe Duck – Good point. I hope the OSSA folks were able to interview the reporters. I doubt the media will report that they interferred. If you watch NewsWatch on the Fox channel, they point out weekly some media bias and media not correcting their mistkes. But until I know the facts I will remain open minded but a bit skeptical.
467- joe, thats why I asked who the aviation authorities were. I am wondering who (which agency) was in charge of the air search.
(467) Yes that is blowing my mind. Not surprised The Oregonian would miss it…it could imply media had a part in the failure of finding James Kim alive. How about that one for a twist?
I think it is absurd that a decision was made to allow media into the airspace and limited rescue personnel from doing their jobs. That is one problem with the media…the whole paparazzi element they seem to thrive upon!
I think the Lunch Bell rang….Or nap time…
Barnadad at 148) said) It is strange that Oregon NG assets sat for 72 hours. That part I don’t understand at all.
Simply put, the Oregon Air National Guard search was activated by the Curry County Sheriff at 9:00 a.m. on Friday, December 1, when he asked Oregon Emergency Management for an air search of Bear Camp Road. As we know, this air search was delayed until late Friday afternoon for safety reasons. Early Saturday morning, December 2, Curry County ended their search and the Oregon Army National Guard’s Curry County Blackhawk mission was officially over.
Although the helicopter crew waited in Eugene on Saturday morning for a call from Josephine County, they gave up and returned to Salem and stood down. Both Oregon Emergency Management and the Oregon Army National Guard monitored the search throughout Saturday afternoon and evening, all day Sunday, and much of Monday. At 2:44 p.m. on Monday afternoon, December 4, Douglas County asked for a helicopter with specialized radar for night operations. This helicopter flew on Monday evening and again on Tuesday evening and was released on Wednesday afternoon when James Kim was found. Of course, this Douglas County mission was an entirely different mission than the Friday afternoon mission at the request of the Curry County Sheriff.
Bottom line: The Oregon Army National Guard was prepared to fly a Blackhawk helicopter over the search area on Saturday, Sunday, and/or Monday morning. They did not fly because Josephine County never asked them to.
(476) One of my biggest questions…
467/Joe: That is the first time I have heard that before today, that media potentially interfered with official efforts. An ironic twist to be sure if true.
Brenda wrote: The Oregon Army National Guard was prepared to fly a Blackhawk helicopter over the search area on Saturday, Sunday, and/or Monday morning. They did not fly because Josephine County never asked them to.
This item, and certainly the Oregonian spin, suggest that Josephine County didn’t want to search very aggressively. We’ve heard otherwise from several of the SAR people who checked in here.
I wish we could know more about key decisions that are getting pinned on Josephine County in a way that does not make sense to me because I don’t think the SAR team would be expected to coordinate all this air traffic.
Air search points of confusion for me:
1) Where was Carson in all this? Theirs was the main air search effort. They had several choppers up for many days. Why didn’t they search the spur roads via overflights?
2) Why did Josephine County turn down aircraft support if in fact they did?
3) Why wasn’t air support used to fly the length of the road on which they were finally found by Rachor, I think a full day after he reported seeing footprints and tire tracks?
Kip at 214) said: It would seem to me Spencer Kim may have taken action only after realizing that the leadership / coordination of the SAR effort was in disarray and that time was very fast running out for his son.
The Governors Report points to a different conclusion. At 5:23 p.m. on Thursday, November 30, the Oregon State Police sent a teletype message to other police agencies alerting them to look for the Kim family. By 10:00 a.m. the next morning, the Curry County Sheriff had determined that the Kim Family might be stranded along Bear Camp Road and had asked the State of Oregon for an air search.
The State of Oregon quickly swung into action and within 2 hours it was ready to launch a sophisticated Blackhawk helicopter with a trained and experienced crew of 4. Had the State of Oregon gone ahead with its plan, the Blackhawk crew might have spent as much as 3 hours covering the 34 miles between Galice and Agness. Because the weather was clear and because James Kim burned his last four tires on that afternoon, it would appear that this mission had a high chance for success.
I submit that the Oregon SAR effort was going very well until Mr. Spencer Kim decided to bypass the State of Oregon and launch his own search. The CuCo Sheriff said that Mr. Spencer Kim was trying to influence Curry County operations and we know that Carson Helicopters flew over the Sheriff’s objections. We know that the Carson Helicopter operations prevented the State of Oregon form launching its search mission.
From that point that Mr. Kim became involved in the Curry County swearch, the assets and efforts of the Oregon Army National Guard and Oregon Emergency Management were squandered. And we should note that these events took place long before Josephine County SAR ever became involved.
Well, if the NG helicopter crew was simply standing around waiting for a call from Josephine County I would suggest that someone remind them that telephones make outgoing calls too and such things can be confirmed rather than assumed.
453 – I’d bet the signs are turned to reveal ROAD CLOSED only when the road is closed by a land/rock slide.
466 – I had her explain KOOL instead of Cool. Kewl, Glenn 🙂
482- Then if 34.4.36 has a current ROCK slide on it then why aren’t they turned IT IS BLOCKED……
Its a rock slide not snow but blocked is blocked
482 -483 – 484 I’m confused 😦
The road 34.8.36 (the begining of BC) CURRENTLY have a rock slide on it making it IMPASSABLE…The signs COULD be flipped since the road is IMPASSABLE right now, even though the signs say “May be blocked by snow drifts” and “IS blocked by snow drifts”….Blocked is blocked…..The signs STILL say “May Be blocked”….
Any clearer??? 🙂
485- This goes back a few pages to a topic Maggie and I discussed. The signs – the 4 signs that say “Road May BE blocked by snow X miles ahead” hava a different message on the back of them. The signs can be flipped over when the road is closed to read “The road IS CLOSED”…I will check the photos and put up the exact wording.
484 – thanks, Paul
My apologies, the sign does NOT say closed, but says IS BLOCKED on the back side of it, check this picture and note the caption that the photographer put at the top” “back of ALL MAY be blocked signs”
Hi Gayle! 🙂
The point RRR is trying to make is, those 4 signs STILL are not flipped over despite the fact that the road is blocked by 1. a slide and 2. snow drifts at the summit. I guess one could read into that that someone is still not on top of this very critical issue despite the loss of one life and all the attendant media attention. RRR, correct me if I am wrong on this please ?
489 – In other words, right now drivers are still seeing MAY be blocked. Since there are rock slides now, the sign should be flipped because the back side of the signs say IS blocked.
So I really, really wonder why they are not? Especially after all this attention – wow.
Sounds good to me
491/ – Which, given ALL that has happened, is nothing short of astounding IMHO.
492 – Or at least we know the signs weren’t flipped as of the day the pictures were taken just a few days ago. Maybe the sign fairy has flipped them since then?
490 – Hi Maggie ! 🙂
491 – My bad, as well.
Have we ever been able to find out WHO is responsible for flipping the &*#$ signs? I’m all agitated about this again. And I sense I’m not the only one.
Am all but certain an earlier post by a local had indicated that, even when James & Kati headed up the road on that fateful night, that – had they stayed on BC, (which we STILL don’t know for sure), they never would have made the summit because – even then – snow blocked the road…which begs the question I have belabored too much – why were the signs not flipped THEN.
495- NO sign fairy has flipped them…I only know that cause I came into town YESTERDAY (1-5-7) and they are NOT flipped
499 – This is ridiculous! WHO is supposed to flip them? I’d love to send them an email with my thoughts…
497. 500.
Is this Chicago Maggie!? hahaha. sorry, couldn’t help it.
501..oh, I’m using Chicago as an adjective. The Inland North Maggie….
I don’t understand why the Kims did not turn around when they started to hit snow before it got so bad. Am I missing something? I can’t imagine what they went through and hope to never find out. I just keep thinking that if it were me, I would have turned around before I got stuck and gone back the other way.
sorry. anyway. about those signs. well first of all I was glad to see they have another side. Totally refutes claims that they were good enough to begin with (pac always trying to drive the point home that “may” was strong enough language)
this is disturbing R3. I wonder why…
Sorry everyone that I have harped on the signs so/too much. It’s just so frustrating to me because THEY ARE THERE…this isn’t a case of inadequate signage, or non-existent signage, or missing signage…these are signs that ARE there, that – IF REVERSED – very possibly would have resulted in a totally different outcome. I, personally, could not fathom the Kims driving by 4 separate signs that say “Road IS blocked” and continuing on their way.
502 – Hehehehe, mapper!
Anyone curious, on my blog I posted a thing about accents that is amazingly accurate.
[492] – #85, Page 2 — Comment by Kip | December 18, 2006 …
“I wonder if any changes in the confusing signage at the NF 23 / BLM 34-8-36 junction have been made, YET?
Would seem an imperative, simple, common sense remedial matter but I wouldn’t be surprised if it remains now as before.”
Hi everyone – I am just stopping by for a minute and wanted to thank everyone who said nice things. I think I just need a break. I did get kind of worked up, and it all has to do with my pain about this story.
As far as the English Major/not hitting return stuff goes, I will just try to get used to it. It’s a weird feeling for an English Major to not have control of where a line ends. It’s like I have to learn to just let go… And it’s weird for me to type in this little box. Before I was just filling it and hitting return at the end. I just wasn’t used to the whole comment box thing.
As far as typos go – no one elses’ typos ever bother me!
The only typos that ‘get’ me are mine! And here, because
there is no editing, I have had to learn to ‘Surrender to the Typos’!
I was always more of a creative English Major than a Grammar
Junkie anyway, and with literature and poetry there is a lot
of creative license allowed. But for the record, I can say I won 1/2 of a Scholarship Award one year for “English Major of them Year”, at my little Quaker College.
It was a shocker. Because I wasn’t trying for it at all – I didn’t even know it existed. I just loved my work. I was actually sick in bed for the award’s ceremony. This one professor kept calling me and asking me if I was going to it, and telling me I should, and I couldn’t figure out why.
It was one of those – I am in a dream? moments. It felt good that it was split with another girl because otherwise I think I would have felt like too much.
I am mostly going to be taking a break. But I may have to comment on something informational before I go! I’ll have to
get ‘refreshed’ and take a looksy!
Just a little clarification-
Ok YES there is snow on FS23 right now and the sign is for FS23…….THe sign STILL says “May be blocked”
HOWEVER the rock slide IS on 34.8.36 BEFORE it actually turns into FS23 so TECHNICALLY you can STILL take the Peavine Route to get to FS23 BUT I am willing to betcha money that it is BLOCKED with snow especially after the rain we have had in the last couple of days…..
508- There’s a good typo for you! “English Major of them
Year!” Oh!
506. well it was the implied swear words too 🙂 When I was working in california I found people to be so….well…not so straightforward. hahaha. and your usually so well behaved! its like my mom, when she gets mad her southern accent comes out. maybe your inner chicagoan comes out when your upset?
508- Also typo! ” It felt like it would have been too
much.”
Lisa! I’m glad you came back, and I had wondered if you were an english major.
embrace the typos. Yes, sometimes I see what I have typed and thought, wow I sound stupid. But I know I can spell, and the point gets made, whatever.
Its fun, we get to come up with fun words like assitance, or assitant 🙂
(480) Brenda I wonder how much was turf battle with Curry County, we may never know but my experience tells me that people would react in a way to reduce resources to convince the interfering civ to back off. Pure speculation but it would be nice to know how much of that goes on with the personalities involved.
511 – I almost hate to admit it, but when I’m not on here, I have a bit of a trucker’s mouth. I’m just careful when and where 🙂 But, yes, that was me being… straightforward!
513 – Mapper, what are you implying about English majors? Be careful… I’m one, too 🙂
Now I wish I hadn’t said that!
(497) Do you think they need some assitance with the signs?
518 – There’s already plenty of assitance with the signs – that’s the problem 🙂 Assitantly left as is, or I mean, as may be.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754762/posts?q=1&&page=101
Ick!!! I love Joe Duck!
518 – I think we need some accountability on the signs. What is the point of having stronger wording on the back if nobody is responsible for turning them around, which seems to be the case.
Maggie! funny thing because I wondered the same about you (the english major thing, not the truckers mouth). Actually most people here have a way with words.
Glenn, I think maggie and lisa could provide some assitance with the wording of the signs. perhaps?
520 – If you were to go back to the time when *the* Oregonian article hit, and before there was any murmur of another side, many of us did say the same things based only on what we thought we “knew.”
522 – So English major is a good thing, right? I’d gladly lend my assitance to the bloody signs – first I’d flip them while I worked on “ominous” wording. I still want to know WHO is supposed to have flipped them and WHY they haven’t been!
516- I thought you probably were Maggie! You seem a bit
the hardcore grammarian!
I wouldn’t be surprised if Madeleine is too…
And there’s probably more! 🙂
525 – I don’t no nothin’ ’bout that there grammir thing but i like to write good.
(523) Yes I think you would find similar threads in many places around the same time.
I think over here we have tended to open-minded and this thread has lasted longer. I wouldn’t be surprised if a new thread started over there some people would have the same opinions still and others would be like most here.
Keep in mind we still don’t have a lot of answers to many of the questions we have had from the beginning. I think it is natural for people to have the reactions many of us have had especially with dealing with such an emotionally charged story.
Who knows after we have all the data some of those questions we will re-appear and opinions may or may not change based on that. One key difference here I think at this point even people that made mistakes I think we would be more reasonable with our responses – afterall they are human too.
English major is good. I think paul would help you enforce the flippage of the signage.
So…is this an odot job? here you have the owner of the signs to deal with ….could it be blm?
Mail truck is here – pouncing mailman to see if police report has delivered.
527 – Glenn, very well put. Our minds have opened, and we are still here waiting for “truth.”
And no police report today. I should get it on Monday and will scan/post by Tuesday night (Monday is the one night I have commitments…).
oK I am going to let the cat out of the bag…..The responsiblity of the SIGNS are Forrest Service…It is a couple of pages back JoCo posted it before her banning….
531/RRR – I have a comment for you and JoCo…if it IS true that you are being shadowed/followed to insure your silence, I cannot help but think, in a municipality with scarce resources, that those folks in the Crown Victorias could be utilizing their time in more productive ways (like catching robbers, stopping crime, patrolling neighborhoods). It floors me that they would pull people away from legitimate work to tail you two, and it has a bad smell about it as well.
(528) I didn’t think a skull and crossbones required an English major to get right. 🙂
Thanks for the compliment Information Only Now could you explain to Mrs. Duck why I’m spending so much time on this story?
Maggie let me know here or by email if that report (Portland Police Bureau summary of their role in the Kim Case) made it to you today. Portland Police were great about working to clue us in about that report and get it out but I’m not sure if it got mailed to you yesterday of if it’ll be mailed Monday since I called them on the afternoon Friday.
(527) Another point I think needs to be mentioned.
A big part of all this effort is to try to help improve these efforts however that may come about.
I think it is critical for any of us not to rush to judgment about anyone, James Kim, Kati, Spencer, Sara R, Mike W., Brian Anderson, etc…
If you look back at their histories (based on what we know) all of them look like hard working, decent people with decent track record. What all of these people need more than anything is our support! The more support we give, the more answers we will receive, the more answers we receive, the more conceivably we can accomplish.
As I have said before. If you must judge a person, do not just a person by their mistake but judge them what they do after that mistake.
We need to be there for all of these people just like they would be there for us if we needed them.
Just my two cents…
503 wrote “I don’t understand why the Kims did not turn around when they started to hit snow before it got so bad. Am I missing something?”
Well I can kinda answer that…. last year during spring break we were coming backto Eugene from little sis’s in Bend, Just me and Grace our than 8 yr old. I decided to take the Albany route since I always drive by that exit, and the gate was open… Just curious. Well let me tell you it was one of my top 10 scary routes, but I don’t ever think I thought of turning back, why?
1) Because it had been bad, and it I did’t want to go thru it again on the way back down.
2) It could’nt get much worse
3) The gate was open, so it must be ok, I must just be a big wimp…
4) Trip check had road conditions so it must be ok….
I hit snow, Ice, Rocks, warning signs ect. Never saw another person, car or building,no cell signal, no one knew the change in route….
But I did find out where Tombstone Oregon is…. I think there is a reason why its called Tombstone. Always wondered where it was when I called Tripcheck for the road conditions.
Laurie
(529) You shouldn’t be broadcasting stuff like that about the mailman…would if their spouse were posting here 🙂
Sorry couldn’t resist…just my late comeback from something I sure you said earlier…LOL.
520- I am glad we have a more respectful blog. Anonymity is not always a good thing.
(539) You can be more anonymous here then you can on Free Republic or Mail Tribune both required verified accounts before you can post.
Here you can be completely anonymous as witnessed with post (520).
534 – Hehehe, Joe. Please say hello to Mrs. Duck from all of us that keep you away.
535 – Report did not arrive today.
533 – Sure, skull and crossbones works. And I vote for no signs that require a flip.
536 – Very well put.
Laurie
Wow. Well I can compleltey relate to your first 3 reasons and know about the 4th as an issue.
Pretty scary, the way you put it.
Has anyone ever driven on Needles Highway in South Dakota? I am wondering what bear camp road is like in relation to Needles Highway. It cant be that bad…but that is what I would compare it to from everyones desctiption.
Needles Highway is in a state park, and you have to pay to access it, and I do believe it is closed during parts of the year. (not sure).
531 – RRR, OK, so it’s the forest service. That’s a start. If I can figure out a decent email address for that area, I’m emailing a picture from the batch taken (unless someone tells me that’s not OK, I’m assuming it is) and respectfully (without the &*^%$#) asking that they be flipped.
I would GUESS you could just got to the Forrest Service for our local section and start there….
537 – Laurie, I think many of us have made similar decisions not knowing enough to appreciate how bad things can really get. It’s so easy for me to understand. Especially if it was just raining at first (hence Gayle’s “rain here/snow there” sign idea). It’s been said before, most of us just got lucky. And throughout, it looks like the Kim’s just couldn’t catch a break at any turn – except for Kati and girls being rescued.
533 – I think the skull and crossbones would catch some
people’s eyes – but I don’t think the state would do it –
it’s too ‘unregulated’.
Also, with pirate stuff being so popular – I don’t think it
has the same ‘fear-factor’ it used to.
And I think it would egg kids and thrill-seekers on!
I’d be interested in hearing if RRR thinks it would work,
or if the state would consider it…
oops!
544 – I’m on it. I’m too mad to send the email this morning (OK, OK, it’s afternoon – I just woke up a few hours ago), but after some more coffee and some calming music I’ll email them. Have others already done the same on that issue, I wonder?
546- I never thought about the whole pirate theme of it but I can see the sense in that….Since our world is very DE-SENSITISED….since the media coverage of MANY things..
I dunno about the whole skull and cross bones as a marker….I kinda like the idea of if being a “memorial” route and possibly posting people who have died or lost their way…..I think it makes it more meaningful and maybe make people dig a little deeper and THINK before going up there…
okay my thoughts are mixed up, I know laurie is talking about a different road.
But I keep thinking about Needles highway, probably because it is the most recent road I have been on this treacherous. But, its really a tourist attraction. But, its part of a state park and you have to pay to drive it. Its very beutiful, and dangerous. But, I do believe its closed in winter. point is, it is managed and is definitley not a state highway or toll road.
but glenn, maybe your idea (toll road), that I think was slightly in jest, is really on the right track.
possibly? Not suggesting a state highway but a state park possibly? I dont know if this is possible in that area just throwing it out there (again). obviously charging people to drive it would help with maintenace of the road, sar funds, and, obviously keeping track of people driving there.
Maggie, I have some thoughts I would like to share as well and have been holding back until I get definite answers about jurisdictions, who is mapping who is repsonsible for exactly what, etc. I have a pretty good idea I know…but have been holding off on acting. I am trying to narrow down exactly what blm, usfs, usda, is supposed to be doing where and what it is they are to be providing.
let me say this….I saw the structures in those pictures that would hold a “you are here” map, complete with good encasing and a bullet hole. why not a map in there, just some stuff about geology or something….great, really, if your not trying to save your life.
I’m very tired, I should probably stop posting!
551.sorry, i meant to say….there is some stuff in there that was not a map…something not helpful.
548- I don’t think anyone’s asked for any signs to be flipped.
551- Mapper, I think that sounds like a good idea!
I was wondering have you/are you going to/or have you debated contacting ODOT about any map issues?
550. before people get upset with me for suggesting a toll road in a state I dont live in…
just an idea to get the minds working….maybe people who live in oregon would have a free pass…and much like the pass we use on the tollways here, you could have a little sticker in your car so it clocks you going through, and going out. or maybe you pay a low yearly fee, like $30 and you can travel all year that the road is open.
just ideas.
(549) I am for the memorial approach big time…we thought it was out of the question money wise…skull and crossbones to me was the next best thing.
I don’t buy the pirate analogy…otherwise all the poison bottles in the world would be changed.
Whatever the solutions the wording CAN NOT BE TOURISM FRIENDLY. It needs to state the truth and level of danger that exists. May needs to change to will. Winter needs to be changed from October to whenever the snow is gone, etc…
A list attached to the bottom of the warning sign listing the people who have died or been lost would be helpful as well.
554- Just remember this is a VERY RURAL area….Power could be an issue…..Solar Power could also be and issue since it is a HIGH density area with trees
Lisa.
I havn’t contacted anyone yet. I know they can read here if they want to. If I dont see any actions or response to concerns in the next couple of months I may bring it to them. I will probably at least get my thoughts together and post it to the suggestoins page soon.
I thought it was funny last night when someone asked me
if I was from the Oregonian…
I thought later I should have said, “Yes, I’m Lisa Sleeth.”
557- I was just curious!
Early on, I don’t remember if I read it here or on one of the techy sites, (or heck maybe I dreamed it, who know’s it all runs togather….) 😉 Anyhow, someone was talking about coming up with a cell phone notification system, you would pay a fee to your cell phone provider and you could leave a message about what route you took ect, you would give it a time you would call the service back by, if you had not checked back in by your effective date, the auto dialer would start dialing 1st to your cell phone incase you just forgot to check in, than to tell whoever was on your list that you are overdue and the route you took ect…..
I think this is a GREAT idea! I don’t know how many times I have changed my route or decided to do something else, spend the night in a hotel ect, but did’nt want to wake folks up, bug them ect. I even remember a couple of years ago, I had broken my leg and we decieded to stay home instead of traveling with the rest of the family to N. Washington, well New Years day we decided to just go for it, it was actually pretty fun, talking to everyone on the cell phone, they kept calling and saying how much they were missing us, I think I was even talking to my mom as we drove in and walked in the door, asking what the weather was like (cold and LOTS of snow) I can now just imagine if we had “disappeared” on the trip, everyone would have been looking in the Eugene area, with NO IDEA where we could possibly be…. Pretty scarry!
Anyhow, how could we get something like this going? Has anyone read anything aboutit? How hard would it be to do? Does this sound doable?
laurie
558- That was supposed to be a joke!
551 – Yes, whatever “useful information” was in the encased (survived that bullet hole!) structure shouldn’t be too hard to either replace or supplement with a “you are here” map. Give folks a chance to undo what they’ve done and get out instead of die. So simple, so powerful/useful, and already halfway done.
555 – I agree completely. Give folks a chance to know not to even wind up at the structure above when it’s not a safe time to even be there.
550+ – Even if an actual toll road itself couldn’t realistically be done, there is much in that concept that might be adapted somehow and is worth some thought, I think.
560 – I love that idea! I can’t remember seeing that exact one here as much as other ideas (but there’s been a LOT of information over this many pages), but that’s great because it doesn’t even rely on cell service in places where it doesn’t exist (another thing that would be so nice if it could be changed, but is a much huger issue…).
555- glenn, I can present your ideas along with the others when I call about changing the signs in general. The people I need to speak with will be back at work Monday.
Unfortunately I have the feeling that the more complicated
or involved the ideas are, the less likely they are to
be implemented.
Also, for a memorial, I think the families would have to
want it also/give permission, etc.?
Maggie,
Yes, agreed. get rid of that silly yellow thing they have in there. no wonder someone shot at it 🙂
and yes…I dont know about a toll road, your right I just wanted to bring up the concept again as my mind has wandered to the last treacherous road I was on, and it was very well managed in a way that was not disruptive to the local area.
maybe there is something valuable in this thought, and I dont know what it is exaclty….but lauries mention of the phone system is interesting.
and yes I think much of this has been posted here before…in some form or another. I remember joes suggestion about the pen and paper.
I’m all for low tech when low tech works, its the best option.
555/Can Not Be Tourism Friendly may be too strong, I am ambivalent on this…this road sees a lot of tourist traffic in the summer, late spring and early fall, when it is perfectly fine for that. Mostly it is rafters, fisherman, etc, but there are folks who use it to go to Gold Beach too. I would defer to the local consensus on this as tourism is a significant revenue source for them. But absolutely the potential winter dangers need to clearly and unequivocally communicated in whatever fashion works best.
566- Just keep in mind Paul we will be back to using the “DETOUR” again since the rock slide…So not only is it a YUCKY road it will not be about 3 miles longer on a twisty road following HOPEFULLY good detour signs….
566 – Just please no flipping signs (yes, I mean that two ways) with tourist friendly for summer and tourist unfriendly for “winter” that no one will bother to flip.
More on flipping:
I wonder if this sounds like the right district?
Galice Ranger District (Grants Pass Interagency Office)
Pam Bode, District Ranger
2164 N.E. Spalding Avenue
Grants Pass, OR 97526
568 – I should have said it a USFS district. Anyone know if that’s the one where the flipping signs aren’t flipped? (won’t you all be glad when I learn a new word other than variations of flip?)
Yes it is the Galice Ranger District
*I’ve got to go for the night – goodnight ~*
567/RRR – with sheer drop offs in places and no guard rails…yeah, I remember it well, just a lovely detour that one !!
572- Well since we are talking about timelines….if they won’t flip a sign do you remember how long it got to open the road from the LAST slide….
573/RRR – I don’t live there as you do, but my vague memory is years and years. I’m sure you could enlighten me further ??
just in case I have piqued anyones interest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needles_Highway
I think it is interesting to note, there are no entries here about lost travellers or accidents, despite the high liklihood that there could be.
I’m not knocking oregon, at all. I just for some reason felt like posting this, as maybe it will inspire ideas in someone else out there.
RRR – you have mail.
I am here sorry just got back,…..Had to set up for the Seahawk Cowboy game!!!
540 – Yep, you’ve got to watch that bunch on FR, they’re a feisty group.
574- It was proberly close to two years before they reopened it and had it repaired
(560) we have several ideas in the hopper that is definitely one and one which some have the resources in hand to implement. We will be distilling several ideas into projects pretty soon and will be asking people to help out. Keep your eyes posted.
One idea that has a lot of interest is a mashup for travel maps. Where there will be a site where people can enter a memorial location (i.e. like the white cross on the side of the highway) with a description of the event.
When you plan a trip you can apply the memorial layer and it will show you any memorial locations in the database with push pins at the locations along your route. That may help people understand just how bad or how good a road is.
Maggie, if you find the email address, it may help to post it here ans several people can email. Perhaps get their attention better?
re: 560 – That is a great idea. I have to reveal that I am deaf. I hope that such a service will include some way that I can take advantage of it. If it was done by text message then it would work for people like me.
Well I am keeping an open mind on the “media” helo interference until I hear when and where. If it was during the search of Big Windy Creek from Monday on, then whoever granted the media access has some explaining to do. Maybe the media loiter area was constrained by time and distance to stay far, far away. If the media broke those rules, well bad, bad.
The rest of Mr. Kims letter is pretty sound. (not sure the BLM had a “duty” to close the gate though.) I hope he helps out SAR nation-wide, because quite a few of these outfits need some help.
Take a look at the National Association of Search and Rescue website at http://nasar.org/nasar/ Dedicated, experienced individuals on the BOD and staff, but a very lean organization with limited corporate support. At least that is how it appears to me. This is more of a educational and membership organization with a staff of seven positions with a few of those vacant back in early 2005. Look at their org chart. The BOD is larger and has experienced “veterans” from across the US.
Joe at 449) wrote: This item, and certainly the Oregonian spin, suggest that Josephine County didn’t want to search very aggressively. We’ve heard otherwise from several of the SAR people who checked in here.
JoCo may not deserve that, but the Governors Report does tell us that after the Curry County search ended on Friday evening, nobody asked for another search by the Oregon National Guard until Monday afternoon, and then only after Mr. Spencer Kimmade a telephone call to Washington, D.C. Even after this request, the National Guard helicopters spent most of their time on the ground.
I wish we could know more about key decisions that are getting pinned on Josephine County in a way that does not make sense to me because I don’t think the SAR team would be expected to coordinate all this air traffic.
I suppose that the SAR information would naturally come through the Sheriff’s review because SAR is a County agency.
Air search points of confusion for me:
1) Where was Carson in all this? Their’s was the main air search effort. They had several choppers up for many days. Why didn’t they search the spur roads via overflights?
Because Carson wasn’t searching the area around Bear Camp Road. On Friday December 1, the Carson helicopters “were scheduled to search highways 38, 42, and 126.” On Saturday, Carson had “3 helicopters the air searching for Kim family in the following areas: Highway 42 west from Roseburg; Grants Pass to Crescent City, CA with a high concentration in Cave Junction area; and Bear Camp north with a high concentration from Tri-City to Highway 199.” Without more information, we can’t know what Carson did on Sunday, but they possibly followed the same route.
The Carson helicopters didn’t find anything on Bear Camp Road because they weren’t even looking in that area.
2) Why did Josephine County turn down aircraft support if in fact they did?
The Governors Report contains no indication that Josephine County ever rejected air support because it was never directly offered. It is up to the County Sheriff to request National Guard assistance and that eventually happened here, although not until the afternoon of Monday, December 4.
3) Why wasn’t air support used to fly the length of the road on which they were finally found by Rachor, I think a full day after he reported seeing footprints and tire tracks?
An excellent question that the Governors Report does not try to answer. So far, I count one possible flyover by Carson early Friday afternoon, December 1, although it was apparently in transit to the Coast and not searching that area, and another flyover or two later that afternoon by the Blackhawk. Unless Carson searched the area another time, the only person to do a complete search ofthe BLM road was John Rachor.
It strongly appears that Mr. Spencer Kim, possibly through misinformation, decided that James and Kati simply could not be lost in the wilderness and used his influence to redirect the search toward other areas. The Governors Report amply shows the extent of his interference. It is sad because if Mr. Kim had merely stayed out of CuCo Sheriff Dinsmore’s way on Friday December 1, the Bear Camp Road area would have been searched by 4 experienced National Guardsmen in a fully-equipped Blackhawk helicopter. I cannot help but believe that spending 3 hours of searching over this area on a sunny day might have ended differently.
581 – Tara, I tried posting the link I found on their Contact Us page, but I think it went into moderation… But I bet my comment will show back up, and I think that’s an *excellent* idea for more to write. It would be helpful though if anyone knows how to best describe exactly where those signs are located – sounds like it’s on NF23 (the one the Kim’s may not have taken to the left and turned right onto the BLM road)?
I read Spencer Kim’s letter to the Washington Post (my local paper). Although I agree with him regarding the media aircraft, I still don’t get why the Guard couldn’t have gone ahead and searched anyway? It’s not like they were flying over the area that needed to be searched.
I’ll definately send an email and your right, we need to nail down terminolgy to prevent confusion.
Tara at 454) asked: who were the aviation authorities for this SAR operation?
The area around JoCo is uncontrolled airspace – nobody is in charge at low altitudes (below 18,000 feet or so). Pilots have an affirmative duty to look out for each other and avoid collisions. This is the main reason that the Oregon Army National Guard wanted exclusive use of the airspace over Bear Camp Road – with 4 people watching the ground, who would look out for other air traffic?
587 – Glad to hear you’ll add your voice, Tara! This one just frustrates me because it’s literally something that can be done immediately without waiting to think up any new wording, create the signs, go through red tape, etc.
Brenda at 476 I agree with your timeline and am not critical of the Oregon Air NG for sitting for 72 hours, but Crikey, it’s like not playing LT (NFL MVP + a star running back) in the Chargers’ upcoming playoff game. [I am adding the detail not for American women who seem to know football very well, but for those viewing us from England].
Toll road- I live 3000 miles away and if there is anymore discussion of making a free road a toll road, I swear I’ll move to Australia.
Fools Gold at 481) wrote: Well, if the NG helicopter crew was simply standing around waiting for a call from Josephine County I would suggest that someone remind them that telephones make outgoing calls too and such things can be confirmed rather than assumed.
If you read the Governors Report, you would see that Oregon Emergency Management was on the telephone regularly with JoCoSAR and with the Oregon National Guard between 10:00 a.m. on Friday, December 1, and 3:00 p.m. on Wednesday, December 6.
I have a sense that you do not like the procedures that the Oregon Army National Guard must follow in these situations. There is nothing that anyone here can do about that, so you might try writing your Congressman.
Brenda, then why did Mr. Kims letter state the aviation authorities opened airspace for low-altitude media flights in the area with the search still underway? who were the aviation authorities he was referring to?
Tara, as to time and place, ….my GUESS is that the media wanted access to the Big Windy Creek drainage area after Kati and the little ones were found.
Why? Great media interest. Hundreds of magnificent volunteer searchers on the ground, some slung below helicopters being inserted into the creek, some hope of a great rescue video. Just a guess. But someone who watched the Portland news coverage would know better.
Glenn at 514) said (480) Brenda I wonder how much was turf battle with Curry County, we may never know but my experience tells me that people would react in a way to reduce resources to convince the interfering civ to back off. Pure speculation but it would be nice to know how much of that goes on with the personalities involved.
Please reread the series of exchanges between Oregon Emergency Management and Curry County Sheriff Dinsmore. GR at 3-7. In these exchanges, you see a Sheriff that is ready to search the Bear Camp Road area as soon as possible. As the morning wears on, you can see his increasing frustration at the delay, even wanting to shut down all air traffic. When reviewing Sheriff Dinsmore’s actions on that Friday, I have the strong impression of a guy who is trying his very best to arrange for a search of an area where he strongly (and correctly) suspected that the Kim Family was stranded. I then get the sense of a guy who is coming under increasing pressure to do something else that he doesn’t want to do. Finally, I have the impression of a guy who knows what he is supposed to do but who has been overruled by an outside authority.
So there is a turf war, as you said, but with who? Not with JoCo, because they were engaged in their own separate activities and weren’t competing with CuCo. With Oregon Emergency Management? They were communicating with each other and had been ready to start the search since Noon. The Oregon State Police? They were out searching the highways. So that only leaves one party who was not cooperating – the party who put private aircraft in the air and kept them there against the advice of the CuCo sheriff and Oregon Emergency Management. And who was that?
(594) I understand the conflict and who the parties were. My question is why didn’t the Sheriff deploy the air resources. There is always air traffic, professional chopper jocks know how to handle it.
So why didn’t he deploy? I was speculating he didn’t deploy to force Spencer’s hand…I don’t know I am trying to figure that out.
(590) Crikey Mate! Make Bear Camp a toll road! Throw some shrimp on the barbie will ya mate!
Barnadad at 590) said: Brenda at 476 I agree with your timeline and am not critical of the Oregon Air NG for sitting for 72 hours,
As the Governors Report shows, the Oregon Army National Guard was chomping at the bit to get in the air and start the search. They were undoubtedly the best search option available in this end of the United States.
but Crikey, it’s like not playing LT (NFL MVP + a star running back) in the Chargers’ upcoming playoff game.
Well put. However, we shouldn’t assume that JoCo SAR “blew it” by not calling the Blackhawk in on Saturday or Sunday. After all, they DID have helicopters in the air, albeit private helicopters. The weather conditions might have been so bad over that weekend that JoCo knew that the Blackhawk couldn’t conduct a search. There may be other reasons, but it does appear that JoCo didn’t request a Oregon National Guard helicopter until after Mr. Spencer Kim had called Washington, D.C., and then informed JoCo SAR that two helicopters were on the way. More pressure, anyone?
594- Brenda
It would seem to me that the party truly not cooperating
is the party grounding aircraft.
There is no legitimate reason not to have the National
Guard searching Bear Camp while the Carson helicopters
are searching the coast.
This is not like having police and civilians clashing,
in a search where you have to worry about gunfire, etc.
These is a search where helicopters are flying and can be
coordinated to fly in different places.
The right priority would be to use as many resources as
possible to search.
It still sounds like a turf war, and just become Mr. Kim
didn’t do exactly what authorities wanted i.e., nothing –
that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have cooperated with him.
Why do you keep on insisting blaming Mr. Kim?
It sounds like authorities were the ones being stubborn,
and digging in their heels.
If civilians hadn’t been able to participate in this search,
who knows when Kati and the girls might or might not have
been found.
If John James lead and suggestion had been followed, James
might still be here.
I’m so sorry! I completely forgot!
Old habits!
I doubt the overlay of crosses on maps would be worth the effort or that Chambers of Commerce would particularly care for the idea.
It seems an unresolved issue as to whether Josephine County should have called for use of air assets or whether the NG simply felt they should have, but no doubt the NG could have picked up a telephone too.
The problem may have been a poorly planned but legally mandated change from Curry County to Josephine County and a lack of an incident command post that was properly organized.
594/597 and related: Brenda, your narrative certainly seems compelling, but I maintain there is still much we do not know. What if, for reasons unknown, you’re wrong ?? Consider that family members may be reading here. Consider the emotional fallout from essentially outlining a version of reality in which Spencer indirectly caused the death of his own son. What if you are wrong?
How many of you would continue driving on the road that night? He made the choices that put him in the situation where his life ended.
Wow Jake…
A ray of light on the true mistakes.
Thank You.
603, 604 – We discussed that, endlessly, earlier on. See PacNW’er’s posts for details.
603….. Me!
Hate to admit it but even with what I have learned in the last 2 mos, when you are in the middle of something, brain does not always engage, just adrenaline, and wanting to get out!
(603) I have no idea if I would have done the same. I wasn’t there – how could you possibly now?
Jake what about those two cars in Colorado that got swept away in the avalanche? They should have gotten up on time to make it to the mountain in time…should they have been driving on the road when everyone there knows they have avalanches all the time!
603 He made choices, yes, but what role did poor signage, inadequate maps, and other factors play in those choices ? How do you know that he/they did not choose to abort that route at a point that was reasonable, and then, because of ridiculously inadequate signage at the fork, and a sudden blinding storm, they got hopelessly lost??
Let’s not forget that posting anonymously is a breeze here…Jake could be Pac, Grod could be djdee/D.H….so easy for that to be the case.
(604) Oh My Grod!
605…
We discussed that?,when?
800 posts ago?
“family might be reading”???
How bout the people that were trying to help?
We know they are reading!!!
Yet we second guess…it’s very sad.
Glen…warp speed Mr Zulu
603/604 – Please see previous posts on almost every other page for that discussion. To answer your question, if I didn’t know the area, missed my exit, saw that as a viable route on a map, knew that it was only raining – then yes, I might have taken that route and continued until I realized that it was much worse than I expected. Then I would only hope that I’d be lucky enough to be able to get out. The Kim’s were not lucky. Instead, they stopped in the rain and woke up snowed, survived what I can’t even fathom, and then finally someone died for simple mistakes many people could have made.
(611) James Kim and family should have never been even given the opportunity to be on the road. It was supposed to be closed Nov 1st. It wasn’t – the Forest Service messed up. It is pretty clear and they even admit it. Don’t understand why some of you want to pin this soley on James Kim and oh yeah btw he died! So I think he paid his dues and deserves to be left alone.
No, sorry, just lurking, not posting… until you just now mentioned me.
611 – Huh? Let’s help by informing people that this is not a safe route. If they mistakenly go there at the wrong time, they might die. That would be helpful.
609…
Paul…I am me..lol.
Ya might know me from the Hood board.
As a matter of fact…I think ya asked
me to come post on this board..said my opinion
would be valued.
I have never posted…on this thread.
I felt I could not control my anger at the
TILT of this board. I think I even said that
on the Hood board.
Sorry…but i cant stand it anymore…but I’m
gonna go watch the game…and have a beer..try to
cool off…lol.
615/ D.H. Thank you for your candor, appreciate that, apologies for casting aspersions.
(603),(604) Doesn’t everybody agree that James Kim earned his peace. What good would it do anyone to continue to berate and slam this guy. He is dead. There is no honor in any of it and next you will want to rip his widow apart. Those comments are just shameful.
Give it a rest – we are trying to work this through with the living and as a result keep more people living then to go through that absolute horrible hell that James Kim did!
I would love to hear what any LE, SAR or other people directly involved in this make their stand clear – Should we leave James Kim alone?
Maybe if enough the professionals stated it – the detractors would finally stop.
617/Grod – So you are, and so I did, and may I quote you from that other page??: “I did not agree with alot of the things said during the Kims ordeal. Maybe thats cause I am a retired NYC fireman..and I know how the 2ed guessing can get out hand when tragedy strikes.”
So you would classify your comments as something other than 2nd guessing ?? That would certainly be convenient, if inaccurate.
Let’s allow him to go “cool off” and drink his beer and remain a lurker. If you don’t respond the conversation will end. It’s all been said before.
Tara at 592) said: Brenda, then why did Mr. Kims letter state the aviation authorities opened airspace for low-altitude media flights in the area with the search still underway? who were the aviation authorities he was referring to?
Damned if I know. But if there were news helicopters in the area, they wouldn’t have been there before Tuesday, after the news of Kati Kim’s rescue had become generally known. By that point, the target area was confined to the depths of Big Windy Creek canyon and to interfere, a news helicopter would have to get down in the canyon and actively interfere with SAR operations. No private pilot is stupid enough to do that.
Although there are television stations in and around Grants Pass, none of them are big enough to have a news helicopter of their own. the nearest TV market with helicopters is Portland (and maybe San Francisco), but the news helicopter pilots in either of these cities are accustomed to working in police and military environments and are professional enough not to get in the way. I’m willing to bet that all of the video of Bear Camp Road area was taken by Portland TV stations and sold to CNN and the networks.
So I think that Mr. Kim was irritated by news helicopters in the area on the day that James Kim was located, so he constructed a straw-man argument that has no real validity.
(622) Did you ever respond to my (595)? If you did sorry I missed it.
Also Spencer Kim does not strike me as a man that would construct a strawman to deflect. I don’t know him but I certainly don’t get any indication that he would do that…even Brian Anderson has stated in numerous places his high esteem for Spencer – where do you get the basis of your position? Thanks.
glenn I agree with your staments of Mr. Kim. He doesnt strike me that way either. That is why I would like to know who he was referring to. His statement was precise and ellaborate. Didnt sound constructed to me at all. Sounded to me like we needed to get to the bottom of who was responsible for the decision to relax restrictions on the air space and allow media flights in.
(624) That is part of it for the media flights…but I am more concerned why they deploy air assets even though the private pilots were in the area…that is the real question I want answered.
this is interesting: from GR p.23
05 1445 DEC 2006 – Oregon Army National Guard Aviation
– Called Sarah Rupreck, Josephine County SAR Coordinator.
– She indicated that Josephine County had not requested any support from the
Oregon Guard.
– She indicated that Spencer Kim called Washington D.C. direct. Spencer Kim
then told Josephine County that the Guard is launching 2 helicopters to assist in
the search.
that semi-confirms Mr. Kims statement on his letter:
“aviation authorities acquiesced to media requests to relax restrictions and allowed low-altitude media flights in the area while the aerial search was still underway. This untimely and irrational decision caused many rescue helicopters to abandon their operations for one full afternoon due to dangerous conditions created by media airplanes. It took personal pleas to Washington to get restrictions reinstated. The search, not media interest, should be the top priority.”
Great Game…
Paul…I don’t get your meaning here?
So you would classify your comments as something other than 2nd guessing ?? That would certainly be convenient, if inaccurate.
Seahawks RULE!!!!!!!!
Oopps Good Evening Everyone!
629 – that was sooooooo close !
619 – I’m not SAR, but I’ll post this again since they already said it, and I don’t think they mean only sometimes:
Is there anything you don’t do?
We do not judge, criticize, or lecture people who get lost or injured. It can happen to anyone.
http://www.pnwsar.org/faq.htm
631- HOLY MOLY….I am just about horse from yelling at the dang game….and I am WORN out from the energy I have excerted….It was almost like an all nighter on here!!!
Hey Joy…that was kinda a cold?
632 – perfect timing, perfect quote.
32- Good place to look for info….that is a group that has their &*$% in a row!!!
I had to dig all the bloody way back to page one to find where I’d posted it and remember the link 😉 It’s good to remember. If the ones out there busting their humps trying to save people won’t judge, that’s pretty bold to me!
Now I know why my neighbors have been screaming and yelling! (The game, I guess!)
Jake, Jake, Jake 603
Maggie’s response at 613 is eloquent, classy and mirrors mine. I have posted my opinion on this early on in similar words to Maggie’s. You can hold any position concerning his culpability, but I (we) have tried to be humane, decent and respectful.
On the media aircraft, I will bet we get a response in the next Oregonian story that puts some new perspective on this.
Maggie..
The reason is….cause its a LOSER.
It’s a No Win situation…
The Pros know this.
639 – Bamadad – do you know something about a pending Boregonian story that we don’t know ??
Lisa at 598) said: 594- Brenda
It would seem to me that the party truly not cooperating
is the party grounding aircraft.
There is no legitimate reason not to have the National
Guard searching Bear Camp while the Carson helicopters
are searching the coast.
In effect, you are challenging the Oregon Army National Guard SAR procedures. However, it was their professional and experienced judgment that it would be unsafe to conduct a search in an area with private air traffic. This is entirely reasonable in a military operations zone.
This is not like having police and civilians clashing,
in a search where you have to worry about gunfire, etc.
That is true only if you don’t see a midair collision in a remote area as a danger to avoid. You might remember that civilian pilots have no obligation to follow military orders, even those coming from a great big helicopter.
These is a search where helicopters are flying and can be
coordinated to fly in different places.
The right priority would be to use as many resources as
possible to search.
In an ideal World, that would be very nice indeed. And then we could all go to the lake! But on that clear and sunny December Friday morning, the Curry County Sheriff wanted to search the Bear Camp Road area because he thougth that the Kim Family might be trapped there. And they were. And no amount of might-have-been-nice can replace 3 hours of searching on a clear day by 4 Army pilots in a Blackhawk helicopter over an area 32 miles long and 10 miles wide, searching for a family who are standing in a clearing buring four car tires to attract attention. Can you honestly replace that opportunity for rescue with dreams of maybes and could-have-beens?
It still sounds like a turf war, and just become Mr. Kim
didn’t do exactly what authorities wanted i.e., nothing –
that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have cooperated with him.
By reading the Governors Report, I conclude that it was Mr. Spencer Kim who was delaying the Bear Camp area search by failing to cooperate with Curry County SAR. Like it or not, Mr. Spencer Kim could have grounded his helicopters or moved them far away from the search area. The Governors Report indicates that Mr. Kim he paid no attention to Curry County Sheriff Dinsmore’s informed desire to search the Bear Camp Road area. For some reason, Mr. Kim decided to search elsewhere while failing to specically tell Curry County that all activity over Bear Camp Road had ceased. If there was a turf war, it was because Mr. Spencer Kim was interfering with standard Curry County SAR procedures.
Why do you keep on insisting blaming Mr. Kim?
Who chartered the private helicopters whose operations over the target area forced teh Oregon Army National Guard Blackhawk helicopter on the ground for 2 1/2 hours?
It sounds like authorities were the ones being stubborn,
and digging in their heels.
Because the Oregon Army National Guard’s established search procedures won’t let them fly in in unsafe manner? As an arm of the United States Army, these procedures are probably matter of Federal law and therefore impossible to talk down.
If civilians hadn’t been able to participate in this search, who knows when Kati and the girls might or might not have been found.
Or maybe if the Oregon Army National Guard had been permitted to conduct their search like the Curry County Sheriff wanted them to without interference?
If John James lead and suggestion had been followed, James might still be here.
We don’t know the facts on that one yet – the Governors Report doesn’r cover JoCo SAR. But that has nothing to do with Mr. Spencer Kim and his private helicopters.
At the rate that Mr. Spencer Kim’s private air search was going, the Kim Family would have been found by a hunter next May. Mr.Kim was not only looking in the wrong places, hjis actions prevented both CuCo and JoCo SAR from looking in the right places. These may be embarrassing facts, but they remain facts nonetheless.
642- IF John James statement is true that he checked the road then YES James would be alive because John James WOULD have found him IF John James checked his road as he stated….
Hey Brenda…
“Don’t let the facts ..get in the way of a good story!”
“Don’t confuse me with the facts…my minds made up!
Here is a tidbit about the engineer and his effort to find the Kim’s through their cell phone. He had tried a day earlier but his effort was thwarted. (I don’t know if this has been posted or not. It was a news report earlier this am.)
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/010607ccjcKGWOffer.134f07cb.html
642/Brenda: I notice in your 642 you conveniently skipped over addressing my 602, so let me add this. You’ve belabored the point repeatedly, I think we’ve got it. If you’re wrong, you will be the first one here falling all over yourself apologizing, right ?? And let’s assume you’re right, don’t you think that fact will hound James’ father to his dying day, making his life a living hell ?
I say we await the rest of the reports and give this particular point a rest. How many times have speculations proven inaccurate with the release of subsequent information ?? I’ve lost count.
Paul at 602) said:594/597 and related: Brenda, your narrative certainly seems compelling, but I maintain there is still much we do not know.
There is no doubt about that. But we may properly interpret what is now before us, may we not?
What if, for reasons unknown, you’re wrong ??
If so, I will freely admit it. Can you point to an area where you believe that I am wrong, or is this a thought project?
Consider that family members may be reading here.
. . . . . OK, I’m done!
Consider the emotional fallout from essentially outlining a version of reality in which Spencer indirectly caused the death of his own son.
Those are your words and not mine. But whether you like it or not, the Curry County Sheriff’s search of the Bear Camp road area was delayed by private helicopters under the direct control of Mr. Spencer Kim. Like it or not, those are the facts as contained in the Governors Report.
What if you are wrong?
Then I will have the opportunity to learn something right. How do you handle the arrival of new and unexpected information?
I believe Brian Anderson stated Spencer Kim is a remarkable man.
Brenda- 642 and before.
Beguiling and persuasive, but I think the interplay among the two “air forces” is still unknown. You have done a lot of work on these posts and present facts in a professional manner to support a tough conclusion. Not sure if you are with an agency or govt org– have you mentioned it before? Anyway, good night to all from the East Coast.
648- I believe MANY have said Spencer Kim is a remarkable man
You are absolutely right.
Glenn at 623) said: (622) Did you ever respond to my (595)? If you did sorry I missed it.
Sorry, no. When you suggested that The State of Oregon might have been in an ego contest with Mr. Spencer Kim, I didn’t realize that you were serious.
Also Spencer Kim does not strike me as a man that would construct a strawman to deflect. I don’t know him but I certainly don’t get any indication that he would do that…even Brian Anderson has stated in numerous places his high esteem for Spencer – where do you get the basis of your position? Thanks.
Did you hear ANYTHING about news helicopters interfering with the search effort? I didn’t, and I haven’t heard anybody else refer to it. So either Mr. Spencer Kim saw something that hasn’t been reported or he constructed an argument so that he could strike it down. Ino other words, he constructed a straw man. And until someone shows me that Mr. Kim is right about this, I will continue to be skeptical.
652/647:Brenda: I will reprint this from my previous post and move on:
You’ve belabored the point repeatedly [ENDLESSLY MIGHT HAVE BEEN A BETTER CHOICE OF WORDS]
I think we’ve got it. [HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THE EXPRESSION “BEATING A DEAD HORSE???]
I say we await the rest of the reports and give this particular point a rest. How many times have speculations been proven inaccurate with the release of subsequent information ?? I’ve lost count.
Grod at 644) said: Hey Brenda…
“Don’t let the facts ..get in the way of a good story!”
“Don’t confuse me with the facts…my minds made up!
If you don’t mind telling me, what do you mean?
Paul at 646) said:642/Brenda: I notice in your 642 you conveniently skipped over addressing my 602, so let me add this.
No, I answered it at 647. Please do your homework before you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.
You’ve belabored the point repeatedly, I think we’ve got it. If you’re wrong, you will be the first one here falling all over yourself apologizing, right ??
No. I will learn some new facts and then move on a little smarter, or at least a little better-informed.
And let’s assume you’re right,
Unless you can show me some facts demonstrating that I am wrong zabvit something, I’m fine with that.
don’t you think that fact will hound James’ father to his dying day, making his life a living hell ?
And do you think that if I avoid mentioning these facts, Mr. Kim’s life will be a lot better? I am strong with the Force, Young Skywalker. But not that strong.
I say we await the rest of the reports and give this particular point a rest. How many times have speculations proven inaccurate with the release of subsequent information ?? I’ve lost count.
So fromfear that future revelations might make our present understanding wrong, we should wait until was have all of the facts and then start to think? You aren’t a scientist, are you?
Brenda…
I was trying to agree with you.
The two saying I posted were long
time sayings in the FDNY..When you were
being 2ed guessed…by people who had no clue.
585- The locations of the four signs are as follows….
#1 located on Merlin Galice Rd Just off the I-5 Ramp in front of the Rays Centry Market
#2 is located on Merlin Galice Rd just pass Crow Road
#3 is located on 34.8.36 about 2 miles up
#4 is located at the intersection of FS23 and 34.8.36
Hope that helps! 🙂
Brenda, were you involved with the SAR? I’m just curious because it seems you just started posting in the past day or so (if that is incorrect, I apologize) and you really zeroed in on the facts well and quickly (whereas my head is spinning). I was just wondering if you had been involved with the incident at a different level besides this blog.
Thanks RRR. maggie, did that link ever show up?
You bet!
657 – Thank you, RRR! I thought someone out that way would know.
659 – Tara, I tried *twice* (ok, just now three times) to post that link. Watch, Joe will unmoderate/liberate both, and then our numbers will be screwed up by two 🙂
Even only part of the link won’t go. No idea what’s going on.
Is the Governor’s Report available online to review?
Hi Kati’s Dad. Yes, it’s at:
Click to access kimchrono.pdf
662–Hello Kati’s Dad: Joe has linked the report at the top of this page (in the blue shaded area along with other links.)
Thanks
661 – OK, four tries with USFS link no good. Maybe this will work?
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/rogue-siskiyou/contact/feedback.shtml
666- Creativity!!!!!
666 – Finally, sheesh! Happy writing 🙂
(652) I still haven’t gotten an answer to my question. It wasn’t about the ego contest – interesting you worded that way.
Regardless of Spencer Kim having choppers in the air…who cares that he did that and in fact he was in the wrong area searching.
My question is: Why didn’t the Sheriff deploy air assets anyway? He would have deployed in a different area like he wanted…I don’t see how the private helicopters could have interfered with the efforts…please explain? Even if the private copters were over Bear Camp they still could have launched? We know that is true because the media copters were flying and the private copters and search copters were all flying over the same area.
Sorry to keep beating this but why didn’t the Sheriff deploy anyway? How can they blame their delay on Spencer Kim’s search effort?
got it maggie. thank you. it came up fine.
Barnadad at 649) said:Brenda- 642 and before.
Beguiling and persuasive, but I think the interplay among the two “air forces” is still unknown.
True, and we should know more when the Sheriffs Report comes out in a week. Or two. Or three. Because each Sheriff controls SAR, that Report should fill in a lot of details.
You have done a lot of work on these posts and present facts in a professional manner to support a tough conclusion.
Thank you for your kind words. I downloaded the Report on friday and went through it line-by-line. When I went into the Report, I expected to find a slow response by the Oregon State Police and a lot of dallying by the Oregon Army National Guard. I lost those notions pretty quickly when I saw that the Oregon Guard was ready to launch their search two hours after Curry County requested it. That search would have spent 3 hours between Galice and Agness on a clear and sunny day.
While I continued to read the Report, I kept trying to discover why the Oregon Guard couldn’t get clearance to fly. And that inquiry leads only in the direction of the person who charteresd the private helicopters and who told them where to search. And that person was Charles Manson, and he is rotting in jail where he belongs.
Not sure if you are with an agency or govt org– have you mentioned it before?
No, I haven’t. Answer: Registered Professional Engineer (Electrical), Recovering Attorney. I used to litigate against government agencies and I hate them so very, very much.
Anyway, good night to all from the East Coast.
Same to you!
So let me get the two deflection pictures being painted here…
1) It was James Kims fault anyway and he deserved…
and hey if that doesn’t work…let’s try
2) His dad got in the way and caused the efforts to fail.
A lot of this discussion is now starting to drive me back to the first page of the entire discussion. Maybe we really do need to look at the operation very closely and find out who made what mistakes. Brenda I appreciate your detail but with all that detail you are trying to herd a lot of people into one spot. I am not buying it. The Sheriff could have deployed air assets – I would like to know the real reason he didn’t do it.
Fact they flew when media and private helicopters were in the same specific areas. They could have flown on Friday and they didn’t. Somebody doesn’t want something out here – they are trying to hard on this point.
671 – And that person was Charles Manson, and he is rotting in jail where he belongs.
?????????????
Paul at 653) said:652/647:Brenda: I will reprint this from my previous post and move on:
You see? Allah is most merciful! And She now gives both me and the nits a relief from the endless picking! What a Gal!
673 I agree….. what the…????
673 – Gayle, I wondered, too. 😆
Pac has returned?
672 – I must be really tired and am reading that all wrong…
677- Reincarnated
its late…. this is making my brain hurt.
680 – Glad I’m in good company.
I think Pac and djdee merged…
So what does anyone think of the “FEDRAL” investigation that has been called about the unlocked gate……(swift change of subject)
and are being assitants….
Brenda how do you expect us to take you seriously?
This is really absurd. HST had a saying…if it’s too hot in the kitchen…
682 – into an assitant?
good, rrr. we were way off track.
684 – hehehe, same thought, same time. This place is scary.
(683) I think it is Feinstein grandstanding as always…
however I think the issue needs to be thoroughly reviewed. I think they messed up big time with the gate. I wonder how much that policy was impacted because of the Stevers case?
I wish I could drink coffee.
Maggie, thats just creepy. 🙂
642- Brenda
You keep trying to make it seem like what you’re saying is backed up by facts and what we’re saying is not, but the truth is the conclusions you are making are not based on facts but on speculation.
You don’t know that those Blackhawk helicopters would have found them.
The National Guard could have worked with the Carson Helicopters. It was not a military zone. It was a search
and rescue operation. They were searching in different areas. I don’t know what the standard procedures are, but it still sounds like a turf war, with the wrong priorities
to me.
And I think you have the wrong priorities when you choose to target and blame Spencer Kim so much. You seem to have some issue, either with him, or his hiring helicopters. Talk about condemning someone with hindsight!
You have written so much, there is too much I disgree with to even begin cover it all. I appreciate the facts you present, but I disagree with your insistence on and the characterization of your conclusions.
Grod at 656) said: Brenda…
I was trying to agree with you.
The two saying I posted were long
time sayings in the FDNY..When you were
being 2ed guessed…by people who had no clue.
Thanks, Grod. I’m sorry that I didn’t get it right off, but I live in Washington State, where if you tell someone a joke, you have to tell them that it is a joke or they won’t know that they are supposed to laugh. It must be rubbing off.
Has your reading on this board given you any insights into the Kim Family story?
(692) Unfortunately it is typical litigation style…bury the facts with lots of other details to create a perception that can be believed in the court of law. That is how litigation lawyers work.
My question is shouldn’t they have done some type of INTERNAL as to “who was asked to lock it” before it goes global???
(695) I think they are doing an internal investigation. They already completed their first internal and were working on another. They already admitted they messed up.
That is why I think Feinstein is just grandstanding – normal for her. Nancy has been taking the limelight away from her.
689 – Stivers 😉
I keep waiting for the “blame the lawyers” comments, and so far there hasn’t been much of that. Let’s not start now.
(And yes, I’m a lawyer.)
696- OK Maybe I missed it…I am Notorious for just skimming articals….sides I am getting awfully tired of them…
698- Darn! ok I will throw my lawyer jokes out the window 🙂
(698) I wasn’t blaming any lawyer…I was simply stating a point about Brenda’s style. It is similar to the way a litigation attorney makes their case…is it not?
I work with attorney’s every day…part of my life and I met all kinds some of my attorney’s have become good lifelong friends of mine.
(699) RRR nice diversion from the previous line of questioning (I worded it that way on purpose…LOL) but please don’t under-estimate my tenacity to get an answer. Brenda has raised what I think is a very key question about air support on Friday.
Joy at 658) said:Brenda, were you involved with the SAR? I’m just curious because it seems you just started posting in the past day or so (if that is incorrect, I apologize) and you really zeroed in on the facts well and quickly (whereas my head is spinning). I was just wondering if you had been involved with the incident at a different level besides this blog.
Joy, I am merely a close reader of the Governors Report and am trying to correlate it with other facts and conjectures that have appeared in the news media, on the MT forum, and in this blog. So far, it is the only official document that we have. I have never had a government job and would refuse to work for one that would hire me.
702- Raised it and Raised it and Raised it…..
643- RRR
Don’t want to be bone-picking with you but John James
did not state that he had checked/cleared the whole
road. He said they only got so far and had to turn
around on their snowmobiles because they got to some
points where there wasn’t enough snow to continue.
He told Sara R. that SAR should check the rest of the
road and she said “Duh, what do you think I’m going to
do.”
705- Ouch thats my funny bone!!! 🙂
(705) In all fairness it has been stated that John James has changed his story. I am not sure which version I believe.
Did it again! ::(:
Hey lisa email me…..
(708) your (705) is ok…it is the ones that cover an entire page…I keep expecting to see some of Jim Morrison’s poetry or something. 🙂
707- Where glenn? I’m interested! How changed?
707 – Now that I would really like to hear more about – very interesting.
698/Joy – but you’re one of the nice ones! 🙂
I know it was alluded to by JoCoSAR pages back that there might be more to the John James story… curiosity piqued!
714- curisoisty killed the cat (fred’s & fredette’s)
RRR – how come you can chat and JoCo cannot? Are the Crown Victoria’s about tonight or did they decide to solve some real crimes and quit harassing harmless local officials ?
Do you really see me “chatting” about the search…….Hhhmmm call me a rebal!
(711) Oh thank heaven,
(712),(714) It has been said on this forum that John James changed his story multiple times. Whether that is true or not is yet to be determined. Not sure if John is on the net but it would be great to his side of it here.
Since that was raised we can’t come to a definite conclusion until we get the facts about it.
714/718 – and this is why I am very curious =^..^=
Glenn at 672) said:Brenda I appreciate your detail but with all that detail you are trying to herd a lot of people into one spot. I am not buying it.
Glenn, the facts in the Governors Report are the Governor’s facts. If you don’t like his facts, tell him. But what you call “attention to detail” just means that I actually read the Report. Four times.
The Sheriff could have deployed air assets – I would like to know the real reason he didn’t do it.
As the Governors Report clearly tells us, Curry County Sheriff Dinsmore was frantically trying to get the Oregon Air National Guard Blackhawk into the air. He even wanted to shut down all air space in Southern Oregon. But the Oregon Guard could not fly while private helicopters were operating in the area.
Fact they flew when media and private helicopters were in the same specific areas. They could have flown on Friday and they didn’t. Somebody doesn’t want something out here – they are trying to hard on this point.
Check the Report. The two Oregon Army National Guard missions that were flown during that period were at night.
Do you have any facts that show me to be wrong? If so, please lay them out. Accusing me of distorting facts without offering proof is awfully impolite.
I also don’t think it serves anyone to hang someone out to dry with all of this. Yeah in the beginning I was very critical, etc… but you have to weigh everything in. I am sure several people have made mistakes during this effort. If any of those mistakes can be avoided in the future we need to all work together so they won’t happen again.
I had a CFO once that came to me and reported they had made a financial blunder (big one) and insisted that I fired him on the spot. I looked at him and said sorry I can’t do that. You are too valuable around here beside I can’t take the chance that the “new” guy wouldn’t make the same mistake you just made because I am pretty sure you won’t do it again.
719/ Hello Kitty!…to bad they don’t have an emoticon for that. 😛
Glenn at 685) said:Brenda how do you expect us to take you seriously?
This is really absurd. HST had a saying…if it’s too hot in the kitchen…
Until you can present some facts or arguments of your own, I really don’t care what you think.
Some comments about the snow warning signs on and before Bear Camp Rd.:
Frankly, I doubt if they are routinely “flipped”. The agencies do not have the time to monitor the signs on their lands when the weather changes. The “flippers” (Forest Svc, BLM employees) were not there when the rain turned to snow. Prior to the night the Kim family took this route to the coast, there probably wasn’t enough snow to justify closing any gates and changing the signs to indicate roads were blocked. I doubt the road was already blocked by snow. Perhaps a local knows if it snowed substantially the days before. Knowledgeable and prepared people were, and are, still using the road system at their own risk. As well, someone stated that they were not sure at that point that someone wasn’t in there. It is always risky to gate a road without doing a sweep and even then, someone could be off-road with their vehicle. If it were the first snow of the season, and occurring late at night, it is unreasonable to expect those signs to be flipped.
I personally believe that the wording “may” on the signs is warning enough. The whole idea of flipping the signs back and forth (is blocked, may be blocked, etc.) is ridiculous. This is what they would have to do in order to keep the area open for travel, work, and recreation uses. The road conditions are variable depending on the weather patterns from October through May. Those responsible for sign flipping would not know if the road was blocked by snow unless they drove up there. Again, ridiculous, expensive, risky.
The only other alternative that would protect travelers from the hazards of the road in winter would be to close it. That would not be prudent (people would find a way in) or fair (to the people who use it wisely).
The “may be blocked” sign gives a warning: that the road may be blocked by snow. This should evoke a sense of caution in wintery weather. Perhaps they could add “Proceed at Your Own Risk! Road Conditions are Not Monitored”. That would certainly get my attention if the “may be blocked” sign didn’t. Perhaps at the first sign that gives the mileage to Gold Beach a sign stating that “This route is best used for recreation purposes and is not a recommended route to the coast.” It could also suggest the use of 199, 42, etc.
Bottom line is, warning sign or not, you take heed when the weather becomes hazardous.
As a 57 year resident of Oregon, with 50 in Southern Oregon, I do not remember seeing another warning sign signifying that a road may be blocked by snow. I drive in the mountains on a regular basis year round. It is a well known fact that higher altitudes are snowy and that secondary roads may not be regularly maintained (plowed) or maintained at all. Same is true for other northwest areas.
My purpose for bringing this up is in response to comments made earlier today and to Dianne Feinstein’s request for an investigation regarding the open gate: I don’t want to see a signage and gating campaign started such that we lose access to our treasured and much used year-round recreation areas. If the Forest Service/BLM get their hands slapped in a big way, they may well respond by closing the forest to the people.
The fact aren’t wrong Brenda. It’s your conclusions and
characterizations that could be very wrong.
And I’m too tired to play your lenghty-drawn out italicized
version of “I’m so right, and I know everything”.
(720) I wasn’t implying you were distorting the facts. Facts are facts…and by the way the GR is merely an accumulation of information from other reports. We don’t even know if there were mistakes in those reports.
No personal interviews were done, etc. All the GR does is lay out a timeline and doesn’t answer any questions.
We need more information regarding NG. I understand the weather concerns, etc. I don’t get the concern about private traffic it just doesn’t fly with me. (no pun intended) There is something else going on here – and I am not implying you are behind it Brenda – I am just looking at the information and that one point just doesn’t sit right with me.
I wasn’t trying to be impolite – sorry about that.
AGAIN BRENDA…
DONT LET THE FACTS GET IN THE WAY.
(723) My post there was in reference to your off the wall comment about Charles Manson and then Allah!
720- I don’t see “frantically” in that report….Hmmm guess I should look closer….
727-
It’s not the facts that are the issue. It’s the conclusions
she’s making! Get that!
She is interpreting and making assumptions and conclusions
from the facts, plus she’s attacking people!
(724) Thanks for the local insight. I think the big problem for most people not from the area is that the combination of May Be Blocked and Winter does not translate to Oct through April.
May be blocked could be enough if they stamped the months on the sign. I read somewhere else that is what they do in other states – they are specific about the danger months.
I agree on the flipping signs…that is just a crazy idea in the first place.
NO LISA…
ITS YOUR SPECULATION…AND THE OTHERS HERE…LOLOL
WHAT FACTS DO YOU HAVE…TO ATTACK PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE?
SOMEONE ASKED ALONG TIME AGO…WHY NO SARs COME HERE…
LMAO….WHY WOULD THEY???…TO BE ATTACKED?
YOU GUYS NEED A NEW HOBBY…
724 – Orygungirl, I do respect what you are saying, but it’s now January, this terrible tragedy has happened, and the signs have still not been flipped. To someone not from around there, it might not be clear that these roads shouldn’t be taken. If they didn’t intend to flip the signs, then I don’t understand the point of printing both sides.
I’m all for keeping things open when it is safe. I understand that this is important to the local economy and to folks who just want to enjoy such a beautiful place, but in winter it’s too dangerous to let the unassuming person from someplace else wander in there and lose a life.
731- Since when have you had enough time while driving to figure out what month it is to see if the sing is applicable??? Just wondering 🙂 Its like those signs in the school zones of CERTAIN times when it is 20 and when it is NOT like by the time you look at the clock, decide if it is time to drive 20 or not your though the area! or pulled over!
(727) Grod I can understand why you retired. Did someone overhear you at a fire? Something like…hey don’t go in there, the idiot caused the fire himself…let it burn!!!
I was a fireman for several years and I can’t understand how you have the position you do on this?
732 – Grog, I promised myself I wouldn’t respond to you. But SAR folks do come here.
(732) I have talked to multiple people directly related and on the ground for this SAR operation and they definitely do not share your opinion. You should get a new hobby and stop yelling that is very impolite.
Campers – Joy had the right idea way back at 621.
738 – Yep, done.
(734) Don’t the signs say something like…road may be blocked by snow drifts in the winter?
Winter to people in Oregon might be October through April but to others they could have a different criteria. If everyone knows the period of time is Oct through Apr why not make it clear to everyone?
Do we have a campfire…. I want smores!!!
WOW GLEN…?
YOU WERE A FIREMAN?
AND WHAT POSITION DO YA THINK I HAVE?
I HAVE NOT TAKEN ONE…
CEPT TO SAY …STOP BLAMING THE SARs
740- I would have to go back and look at the picture. My point is putting months to months on it seems like ALOT of wording and by the time you read it you have passed it and I don’t know ALOT of people who SLOW down to read it all….Too wordy you miss stuff
740- and from year to year our winter differs…
(727) Grod I can understand why you retired. Did someone overhear you at a fire? Something like…hey don’t go in there, the idiot caused the fire himself…let it burn!!!
I WILL JUST DELETE THIS…LOL OK GLEN?
731 Thanks for the response. Regarding specifying months, there could be a liability there. I sat on my dock at a local lake (5000′ elevation) on the 4th of July a few years back and complained about the one inch of snow on the ground around me. Mt.McLoughlin was covered with snow for a few days after that. I suppose it is reasonable to limit the months to Oct-May here. Seems it is common sense, but that is probably cultural and geographic.
Also, about the gate. That is even a bigger issue for me as I use the forest and don’t want to be fenced out, or worse, in. I truly don’t believe that the gate would have saved a life. However, that brings up questions I still do not have answered about the backing down (which road) and going down to sleep (which road?) and where exactly was the gate (on the sleeping/found road?).
The gate isn’t in the picture of THE intersection, though I suppose it is the right hand road.
Anyone know this for sure, that the ungated road was the road the car was found on and they took that road to get to a lower elevation and out of the snow? Rather than go back on the road they came in on?
746- Lake of the WOods???
740/724 Well, a good part of the problem ties in with the maps. NOBODY from out of state would find that road if it wasn’t on a map looking like a viable route to the coast. There are no signs on the 5 at Merlin or nearby indicating coast route off the Merlin / Galice road. I agree with much of what 724 says, locals should be able to use it year-round. I think the fix lies in the maps in combination with much more robust signage for those who do attempt it.
748- Applaud
746 – From what I understood, it was the BLM road to the right at that intersection and down which the Kim’s went that had the open gate.
I also think that the sign flipping is a bad idea, but since they are there now, they should be flipped for awhile at least.
732- grod
We have all speculated from time to time. Brenda is speculating now. Just because facts are quoted in a post, does not make that post, or the opinions of the poster, FACT.
I tried personally to not blame – and even more so not to condemn ALL people involved.
The end of my first post said “Maybe there were just innocent mistakes all around.” It seems that could be true. But we can still note them, and the factors that contributed to them, so that we can learn from them.
We are not here to attack. We are here to hopefully learn and help make changes and improvements for the future.
(742) Not true you have taken the position that James Kim is soley to blame for this.
Even the people in SAR related to this effort admit their were mistakes and they are here participating either directly or by proxie and more want to post here and will as soon as the investigation is over.
Grod times have changed the shield and wall of silence days are long gone.
I don’t see a lot of blaming the SAR’s…I see a lot of people frustrated with lack of information and want answers and are not going to stop until they get those answers.
The answers aren’t going to lead to blaming the SAR’s…the answers are going to lead to a better process.
748 – 100% agreement. Win-Win.
(748) I think the gate that locals can drive around really makes a lot of sense too
Lisa at 692) said:642- Brenda
You keep trying to make it seem like what you’re saying is backed up by facts and what we’re saying is not, but the truth is the conclusions you are making are not based on facts but on speculation.
Lisa, please give me the facts that I am lying about. If you are so certain that I am wrong, surely you can show me why you are right. You can, can’t you?
You don’t know that those Blackhawk helicopters would have found them.
Nor did I say that they WOULD have found them – another straw man invasion. Does your evaluation of the facts tell you that 3 hours of searching over a 10 mile x 32 mile area by 4 Oregon Guardsmen on a sunny afternoon while the targets are burning their car tires for attention is automatically doomed to failure? Does your logic tell you that a 3 hour search in better light is preferable to a 1 hour single pass just before Sunset?
The National Guard could have worked with the Carson Helicopters. It was not a military zone.
It was when the Oregon Army National Guard ws asked to enter the search. I doubtthat Homeland Security would allow an unknown provateplane to flythat close to a Blackhawk. But I guess that while daylight faded away, they should have played nice.
It was a search and rescue operation. They were searching in different areas.
we know that now, but Mr. Spencer Kim did not tell Curry County SAR that Bear Camp was cleared until late in the afternoon. Only then could the Blackhawk launch.
I don’t know what the standard procedures are, but it still sounds like a turf war, with the wrong priorities
to me.
Well, you’ve convinced me! Now I just need to figure out whose turf was being threatened.
And I think you have the wrong priorities when you choose to target and blame Spencer Kim so much.
I have said nothing of the sort. this is yet anothe straw man argument that you have created and then confused me with. Please make your own points and stop trying to put words in my mouth.
You seem to have some issue, either with him, or his hiring helicopters.
Thanks for the psychhobabble. Mr. Kim’s helicopters interfered with a National Guard mission and, yes, I am opposed to that.
Talk about condemning someone with hindsight!
who, Me?
You have written so much, there is too much I disgree with to even begin cover it all.
So you spent your time challenging me in this way? What a waste!
I appreciate the facts you present, but I disagree with your!insistence on and the characterization of your conclusions.
The facts are not mine, but the conclusions are. I’m sorry that you spent so kuch time without mounting a real challenge. In fact, I am beginning to suspect that you haven’t actually read the Report. You really should.
And with that, I’m going to bed! 🙂
(745) I was making a point about the position you have been backing. From a SAR standpoint is makes no sense.
I am sure you did a fine job when you were a fireman please understand I was making a point more than trying to insult you.
749/753: You are both too kind…I’m blushing..no emoticon for it, rats.
752…
OH MY…SHOW ME ONE POST I HAVE MADE
THAT BLAMES THE KIMS?
LOL GLEN…THE SHIELD OF SILENCE???…HELLO
RRR – Lake of the Woods, yeah.
“but in winter it’s too dangerous to let the unassuming person from someplace else wander in there and lose a life.”
There are thousands of roads in Oregon alone where this could happen. Not to be critical, but this could be said for the ocean, a lake, river, a freeway…We are our brother’s keepers, but there is a limit to the protection that can be given to people who have managed to get a driver’s license and have a map.
I think the operative word is “unassuming”. I may have to look that up.
Don’t get me wrong. I have done what the Kims did that night. Spent a night near Mt.Hood stuck in the snow. It took 9 hours to get the 4WD out of a foot of snow on a flat area, but pulling out baby trees (oh, don’t get the trust fund environmentalists on me for that) and laying them (hundreds) behind all four wheels so we could back the car up maybe 6-10 feet at a time. Did this for a half mile to a clearing. Did I feel dumb for going in there? Yep. My biggest worry was that it would eventually make it into the papers in the spring when they found us and I would look stupid. But I went in there gleefully with no thought of ….well, we were just having fun. And we were lucky. No survival gear, improper shoes, no food or water.
On the way home we bought all that stuff. Lesson learned.
Glenn at 701) said:(698) I wasn’t blaming any lawyer…I was simply stating a point about Brenda’s style. It is similar to the way a litigation attorney makes their case…is it not?
If you want to comment about me, please have the courtesy to address the comment to me. The playground gossip style of attack is so outdated.
(755) Brenda, Lisa never said you were lying. She said your conclusions were your speculation and they could be wrong and she felt you were presenting your conclusions as statements of fact.
And your last paragraph says it…
“The facts are not mine, but the conclusions are”.
It may just be your style to get your point across but some of your conclusions to me anyway were presented in a way to be interpreted as fact. Now don’t take this personally but to me it is a form of activist journalism and we certainly have seen some of that with this case.
Also I think you should keep digging like you are doing – overall it will have tremendous value to this process in the end. I think we just need to get used to your style – it is powerful and convincing which is good as long as we can decipher reported fact from conclusion.
I mean what I am saying in a most respectful way.
Some of you guys are not being very nice to each other.
761- Very nice!! I have a personal attachment to Lake of the Woods!!!
758 – blushing emoticon is oops in between too colons 😳
764- Do we need to call the “BE NICE” police out tonight……
In MN we’re all MN nice.
I have read the report, and I’m not playing your game,
not because you’re right, but because I’m tired!
And I’m not “challenging” you or trying to mount a challenge – I’m just telling it to you like it is…
I’m not saying they’re ‘your’ facts – I’m just saying that because they are in you post doesn’t make you right.
And I never said you were lying about facts. Never.
I just said I thought your conclusions and characterizations
could be very wrong!
That’s all!
You are full of it aren’t you!
I think we might. Maybe the crown vics can help.
(759) You made it very clear in post (604) you even used the phrase “true mistakes”
There were lots of true mistakes made in this and James Kim is not the only one that made true mistakes.
So please explain to me that if you think James Kim made the true mistakes and we cannot assess any true mistakes to SAR – how is that not putting all of the blame on James Kim?
Please stop using all uppercase – in the blogging world it means you are yelling and you are most surely going to get a negative response to it.
deleted at Mapper’s request
770- I am afraid if I called the “be nice” police they would tell me that it was not important and redirect me to a pager….someone will get back to me on Monday
(762) I was explaining a comment to Joy who I was responding to. Joy said she was a lawyer I was asking her opinion on the style. It wasn’t a question directed at you.
What happened to post 621….Dosen’t seem to be working….
Glenn,
I mean my post to brenda in about as respectful of a way as her posts are toward us. your too kind.
761 – Orygungirl, trust me, I’m not saying we should label every danger – we should all know that coffee is hot and eating greasy foods makes us fat. If the Kim’s were the only family ever to wind up on that road and in danger that would be one thing, but they are not. It sounds like it’s fairly common. That can be prevented. That needs to be prevented.
Forgive my blunder – I meant to say unsuspecting, not unassuming.
lmao
(761) Hey did you guys all hear that! Yet another experience local made the same mistake the Kims made – isn’t that amazing.
Thanks for sharing that Orygungirl – I mean it.
Sometime I wonder why people don’t understand just how innocent their mistake really was.
(773) ROFL…you are twisted….YAFMF! 😛
Lisa at 7 said:The fact aren’t wrong Brenda. It’s your conclusions and characterizations that could be very wrong.
Could be, but you can’t show me where. What’s your point?
And I’m too tired to play your lenghty-drawn out italicized version of “I’m so right, and I know everything”.
Lisa, you started this conversation with a series of attacks on the facts in the Governors Report and my conclusions that, when challenged, you could offer absolutely nothing in the way of supporting facts or alternate conclusions.
Seriously, it seems to me that you have become too emotionally attached to this matter to be objective. It is clear that you get highly upset when anyone suggests that any Kim Family member might have made a mistake. Please feel free to contact me again after you gain a sense of objectivity.
Sorry I have to have JUST a bit of humor in all this or I am going loose my mind!!!!
RRR – Call out to those clowns in the Crown Vics – we need the nice police !!…lock his keys in lowercase, he’s hurting everybodies eyes.
(781) Everyone one here and probably on the planet agrees the Kims made lots of mistakes…that is NOT (Grod did you note proper use of uppercase here) what this is about.
It is about getting to the bottom of all these unanswered questions and for one reason and one reason only…
So we can make it better for anyone else needing SAR!!!
783- Sorry I was prioritized as “not emergant” I left a message….
(785) Can you fax em?
786- I am sure that their fax is turned off its the weekend….
772/Mapper: Applause !! Cheering !! Fanfare and trumpets !!
Superiority complex is astounding indeed !!! 🙂
(788) Trumpets???
(787) Wait is there a game on? See I am as twisted as you!
781- Do you really think people AREN’T emotionally attached to this???
781- Brenda, I’m not playing, not because I don’t have an opinion because I really am tired and I don’t feel it’s worth my time with you.
Not because I think you’re right! Because I don’t!
Obviously you do! We all get that!
Have fun with it!
Sorry!
You are trying to win your argument with “tactics” and frankly, I’m tired of them… 😦
790- Nah the play offs were done around 8:30pm…..
(791) You picked a really good time to yell there RRR…excellent to see good examples set for everyone.
You know I just realized something…Grod could be using a C64 and that only ever did uppercase…hmmm…not sure.
I’ve promised myself to not further engage with PacMan II – The Sequel, but Mapper did such an outstanding job I just had to acknowledge it with fanfare and trumpets !!!
794- or a C184 they did the same thing….
771..Yes ..true mistakes..facts we know happened.
I will not go thru again I think we all know.
The speculation here…lol…I heard some talkin bout
“they didnt think of it like family?”…lolol hello.
You guys know what they were thinking?
You sit in front of your puters…
“You have a right to know”…lmao…get a grip.
C64 had some GREAT games on it….
795.
thank you paul. I am trying to keep a lower profile than my posting in the pac-thetic days. but like maggie, sometimes my inner chicagoan takes over and I cant keep my mouth shut. Now I must prepare for the italics and empty yet offensive wordplay aimed at me…..ugh.
I’m out! PEACE. See yuuuz all later.
781-
And I did not attack the facts in the Governor’s report!
That is crazy!
You have been wrong about so many things! Not worth my
time! Really. Goodnight!
RRR would you mind responding to (797) and really let him understand how SAR feels about this…please!
ruh oh everyone is going to bed……NO Pouting those who are signing off…We all play nicely here…. 🙂
799 – Breathe in deeply, and release the inner Chicagoan. 🙂
802- I am afraid I am not able to answer that at this time….I know it sucks but timing is bad…..
Maggie
hahaha. i didn’t mean that you cant keep your mouth shut on occasion….just that sometimes I can’t help but speak my mind. 🙂
probably you realize what I mean, but just in case!
Thanks mapper and glenn! 🙂
(805) You don’t need to spill the beans…just tell Grod how important this forum has been for you guys on SAR and actually how helpful it has been with everyone. Grod is convinced this is all a waste of time. I think it could be helpful if he heard from somone whose feet is in the fire just how good this forum has been.
806 – I laughed at how it came across but knew exactly what you meant, so it’s all good. 😉
799- Just rise above it Mapper and don’t engage. Pac-Man II – The Sequel, is a very similar movie to Pac-Man I – The Carnage…you cannot have a rationale exchange with an all-knowing superior intellect. We are but mere peons toiling aimlessly in our blog, so far below the vast superiority of those who would teach us if we would but listen.
(806) Believe me…Maggie can’t keep her mouth shut…LOL
810..hahahah. the carnage and the sequel. new villain, different weapons. same story.
(810) Paul that should have been posted in poetic form…next time send it to Lisa for formatting please.
Lisa 🙂
Grod- I was someone who was involved with this search CLOSLY…..Talking with all these people and hearing everyone else’s options and ideas has been great…its about the solution NOT the problem……You can think whatever you want about this forum…but I think you really need to respect those here and their ideas…..You would recieve the same respect as you dish out but I see none yet…..Being involved I see a “tunnel” vision because I lived it to hear everything from everyone else and from people who are “interested” and NOT involved is very insightful.. I believe GOOD things will come from this group of people…..
When Grod is your biggest fan, it may be time to rethink what your saying.
Leave Grod out of this. He is a big boy who can stand alone.
But I can tell you dont passionaltey believe what your saying, your just enjoying the argument.
Psychobabble.
I’ve noticed from the start you are slipping your opinion in between the lines and trying to sell it as a factual argument, now you state you hate government. yeah you sound totally objective.
And by earning your living drafting for the government, you are far too insulated from the real World.
At first I thought you might be a geologist,
If I want a geologist, I’ll hire one. Draftsmen, too.
and I sensed that we might see the world similiarly with a few frustrating differences, easily overcome with thoughtful thought and discussion. Now I see that is not the case, but, much like many geolgists vs. geographers, your superiortity complex is astounding. but atleast geographers and geolgists usually come to terms within a reasonable amount of time.
Name-calling and personal attack are an interesting way to bstart a “thoughtful thought and discussion.” But I see that you get right back to the personal attacks. I can see that the blog rules just don’t apply to you.
this is just nonsense.
Then why did you start this discussion? What was your point in doing so?
and your charles manson joke and allah joke, just not funny.
I am impressed that you recognized it as a joke. Did it take very long? And I am touched that you read my posts in such detail, although you should know that I never read your posts because you never have anything interesting to say.
I see through your argument and grod….you should just give it up. your equally transparent but not as gifted with language and spinning facts to your benefit. maybe brenda will take you under her wing and teach you a few tricks
Can’t you be content to attack one person at a time?
But Grod, let this be a warning to you. Some people on this blog will attack you for agreeing with someone that they don’t like. That group hounded one momber off this blog and even followed him over to another forum and attacked thim there and then came back here and talked about him. So for yuor future happiness, please just camll me a name of some sort and you will be OK again. I will understand.
812 / Ebert and Roeper gave both films 2 thumbs way down – too pretentious, too repetitive and un-original.
(797) You still haven’t explained how your previous post wasn’t a position you were taking.
You specifically blamed James Kim for his death and said no one can blame SAR.
How is that not taking a position on this?
You response is…I am not going to go into this again…you should get a grip.
Also because of the blog a lot more questions have been raised and people are being required to produce answers and a lot of it started here. So wake up the Internet is changing everything.
815.
wow. I have total admiration for your point of view R3.
814- cute glenn! 🙂 Goodnight everyone!
Oh my 😈
Brenda …what exactly are you intentions with all these posts and cross examining EACH converstaion with you???
(815) Thanks…nicely said! You get fanfare and trumpets to!
823- Good cause I was a band geek once I like the fanfare!!
Wow RRR, that was a very nice compliment to the group here, thanks! But East coast folks you need to go to bed now ! 😉 😯
(824) even for the common man?
826- Of course!
(827) ah…you were trained in the ways of a band geek…very nice!
One time at Band camp……
(825) See ya later Joe…I’m going this time.
Brenda, take a deep breath. Just chat and take in the info instead of writing dissertations and cross examinations.
Sorry I couldn’t resist!
Whoa Glen…
I don’t say its’s a waste of time..
there is no one here that was invloved…
(that i can beleive would even post)..needs to tell me me what they feel.
Its you they won’t tell cause tomorrow you
will have another theory.
Ok time for mucic…nite all
815/RRR – More applause, foot stomping, people in the stands holding up lighters, fanfare, trumpets and kettle drums…drown out the dissonance !
(832) I am still chuckling…that was funny! I wanted to respond but I know Joe wouldn’t have let it fly. See you later.
deleted at Mapper’s request
I am thinking we are reverting to all those “other blogs” why can’t we all just be friends!`
837/RRR – OK, will you be my friend?
Opinion is Opinion I really don’t think anyone is attacking again we are (or I thought) about the solution and we ask or “question” anyone because we want to learn more….I am thinking people are getting a little OVER sensitive about things (now don’t take offense ANYONE)…
Lets all just take a chill pill and re-focus here…
838- I will be ANYONE’S friend….. You BET!!!
837 – We are, but there’s always a bully on every playground that wants to spoil the fun for everyone else. If people won’t see things their way they get angry, pick fights, and generally try to make life miserable for everyone else. The best response is to have a unified front and just ignore the bully, they usually go away eventually.
I have to go to bed, goodnight all.
841- Goodnight Pauly!
840/RRR – P.S. I will buy you a cup of Dutch Brothers anytime I am in the neighborhood friend.
Wahooo Two friends!! my social circle is growning!!! Watch out world!
843 – Paul, we’re near the same neighborhood. If I be your friend, will you buy me Dutch Bros, too?
😀 Attention 😀
I hate to censor or edit any people’s comments but the personal attacks should stop. OK to be critical of other’s *ideas* because that is constructive but don’t sling the insults.
I am your friend to R3! if you dont mind my occasional outbursts.
good night paul. I sould follow suit soon and protect my sensitive eyes from this nastiness.
847- do i strike you as someone who is bothered by occasional outburst….I seem to have my own….jump on board my friend-ship!!!! We are sailing!!!
Good nite my friends.
849- Nighters MattMan….
lol R3. good night to you. I must stop for today! 🙂
851- Night to you too mapper….
851 – Night Mapper! I *always* enjoy reading your insightful and Mappy posts!
845/Maggie – Yes, absolutely…goodnight all, thanks Joe – I still think we need to chip in and buy Joe a referee shirt someday. 🙂
Let me pick myself back up off the floor it is 12:13 PACIFIC and the oregonian dosen’t have ANYTHING NEW posted…..WHAO!!!
For The Kims..RIP.
nite
Ok so there was a mass exit there…who’s left???
858 – I’m here 🙂
859- Cool!!
860- I really hope there are no Dallas fans in here,…..cause it was a BUMMER night for ya’ll
Thought I’d check in for a minute… seems like emotions are running high tonight folks.
Welcome Det. Mike I think it may be safe for the time being right now but you never know….(might be a full moon)
Evening Det Mike!
Maggie – DIdn’t have time to read back far enough today, but did you receive rpt. by mail?
Det. Mike W – I think most of the folks have left for the night but I’m glad you have kept checking in. We should have the PPB report up for discussion by Monday as Maggie is going to scan it soon.
865 – I did not receive it today… Maybe Monday? Thank you again for all of your insight last night.
RRR thanks so much for keeping people on a lighter note with your last few comments.
It’s interesting to me that the “coolest heads” we see around here are the law enforcement, SAR, and family who were all directly involved and in some cases have been under a lot of hard accusations. They have a *right* to get upset but have been very diplomatic.
Sure, reason I ask is, if you don’t receive it by mail on Mon., maybe call and check if it was mailed. I spoke w/ our PIO just after Joe checked in, and thought I overheard that a copy was being left at the Chief’s Office for you for pickup. Could be wrong, but just thought I’d throw it out there since I know you all have been waiting.
868- your welcome I am glad I could be of service….at some point you just have to laugh about it….I know I am peaking of “GET IT DONE” point I am ready to move on…..
Im still here..
I have to ask you …
Mike…why would you come here
and disscuss this?
869 – Thank you, Mike. We were all kind of trying to see if there was someone who could make it downtown during the day, but no luck. Am I correct to assume that the office would not be open tomorrow if a copy is there waiting?
Det. Mike I’d called back and left a message asking if he could mail it to Maggie’s address. But I got the answering machine on Friday about noon, so the public info officer may not have seen that message yet?
Thanks Joe. And notwithstanding my much earlier comment re: expecting scrutiny and being used to harsh criticism, etc., being slammed is never much fun. However, still believe most whom you mentioned are used to the questions, and do honestly believe everyone has the right to do just that… question. Those of us who know the facts, even if we can’t always talk about them, are not afraid of the facts being accurately shared – lessons cannot be learned, where necessary, if all, including LE/SAR/Family, etc., do not keep open minds.
I’m still here, pretty wild and wooly night, and its not even raining out! 😉
Laurie
875 – Hi Laurie. It did get a little off track for awhile 😉
876- I dunno if I would say “off track” maybe just stuck on the SAME track (or helio) OVER and OVER……
872/873 – Correct, no one in office on weekends and probably wouldn’t respond to voicemail outside of emergencies til Mon.
871 -Grod – what do you mean, why?
Det. Mike one thing I like about this format is that when the SAR report is out and the SAR folks can comment they will be able to address questions directly and not suffer as much from all the second guessing. The problem with Oregonian and other “one-way” media is that people are at the mercy of the reporter. In a blog or forum the person can defend themselves or clear up things.
Mike- I think Grod is having a hard time believeing that people who are involved would actually come on here and have an opnion and would WANT to contribute to this forum…I know for me seeing “other” views and seeing other people have a passion to “help” in their own ways and look for some type of solution as asposed to a quick fix is very incouraging…..Lighten my spirits a bit after being bogged by the media
I just edited my 879 comment to be clearer. I guess it’s not fair that I can go in and fix typos and say it other ways, but…I get to do that.
880 – And we are very grateful to have SAR folks like you here, RRR, for a different perspective. Det Mike, too!
I agree, Joe, for those who are willing to clarify. The funny thing about public perception of LE, and I think some alluded to something along these lines some time back on this or another page, is that LE has some hidden agenda or “code of silence” or something, even when mistakes are made. For any who still believe that is true as a rule, rather than the exception, those days are long gone. I don’t believe it was you who stated something about that, but I think you correctly recognize there are those who do not mind providing either explanations or clarifications, when appropriate.
Had a family emergency today, left you all on your own, and I come back to blistering range wars between the factions!
It’s dizzying to read the last several hundred posts, so will check in later tomorrow. My husband had a probable heart attack today, we’ll know more what’s up tomorrow after the angio. Kind of puts things in perspective, and in the scheme of things, it’s not productive to posture and fight here.
If anything should remind us that life is too short, studying and analyzing the Kim case should do it. Anyone bent on disruption can find plenty of spots to go play that game.
Sorry for airing personal goings on, but this has been a very long day. I’m glad Fred didn’t post while I was gone, I know he’d have jumped into the fray, no doubt making cat calls to egg people on; he loves a good ruckus.
881 – I would say not fair, but then, you are the one having to put up with all of us taking over your blog 🙄
884 – Madeleine, I wondered where you were today. Hope all is OK.
884- My thoughts are with you and your husband….hope all turns out ok….
880 – RRR, I think you’re right – and, admittedly, this is quite different for me, at least. And I know I haven’t said anything very specific, to date. However, after having accidentally stumbled upon this blog, originally, and also admittedly having to sometimes get past the initial LE urge to say, “If these people could only walk a mile,” I’d like to think those of us, such as yourself, recognize that we CAN help dispel myths or clarify facts, or whatever we can add to the discussion.
883 – Det Mike, this is exactly why it’s been so nice to have input from some of the SAR folks and from you. It takes away some of the “mystery.”
Madeleine really sorry to hear that and hope things work out fine for him soon.
879/881 – Joe, you’re so right about the media and similar outlets being one-way… even when we try to straighten them out, that’s when you find yourself often throwing your hands up, wondering why you even bothered to speak with them, since often it just results in whatever you said being made to fit the newspaper/tv/fill-in-the-blank’s “version.”
Madeleine – Best to you and your husband.
Well I am afraid my bed is calling my name ohhhh so sweetly…. I will catch you all in the morning…just remember….”lets all just be friends”!!!! G-night all!!
Thanks, Joe, he’s much more comfortable tonight and I expect he will come through this OK, thanks to good intervention. These sorts of things just stop you in your tracks, though, and you look around to see what is important, such as the efforts here. Although all opinions are surely welcome, we can’t afford to get booed offstage or sidetracked by anyone.
892 – Goodnight RRR!
Mike RE: Media stuff. The letter from Spencer Kim suggested that media aircraft interfered with the rescue aircraft. I haven’t read all the news about this but I don’t think that was reported. This is not surprising but it’s another example of how the old style media is not necessarily objective and unbiased. New media is not necessarily objective either, but because it’s interactive people generally get a shot at calling out the bias or the bad reporting. We’ve seen a little of that here and I hope there will be more as the story keeps unfolding.
That’s good news Madeleine. You be sure to rest up too. Goodnight RRR and thanks again for hanging out.
I’m off myself so goodnight to all – I think I’ll wait until Monday to put up a new page unless people go crazy tomorrow with comments.
Good night, Joe.
I’m still up drinking coffee, so I’ll be refreshing the page once in awhile to see what’s going on. And that we are all behaving 😉
Maggie, R3 and Mike, thanks, I really appreciate your thoughts.
As for the discussion here, I think most of us have changed our initial opinions as facts have emerged, and will continue to do so. Others will continue to make the facts fit their opinions.
Madeleine, am so sorry. I know your scared and exhausted.
Will keep you in my prayers. Please let us know how things are going.
Those of you who believe, lets all say a collective prayer for Madeleine.
Good Night John-Boy, Mary Ellen, Sue Ellen, Grampa, Ma, Pa, Joe! 😉
Good Night!
Thanks, Frances, it’s a comfort to stop by here and unwind, believe me.
Laurie, LOL. That’s what is sounds like here sometimes late at night.
Madeleine, I agree. While our opinions were influenced by the media (our only source), once we started to hear that there was another side, it became different – mind re-opening as someone called it and I’ve adopted.
Hang in there, Madeleine.
Hi Frances 🙂
Glad your here and unwinding Madeleine, my hubby did this type of thing once when I was out of town, drove himself to the hospital, and then home again the next morning, waited until I an the munchkin got home to let me in on the little secret! Could have killed him if I had’nt been so worried, anyhow in our case just a little to much stress….. (his dad died at 52 so…….)
Laurie
A final g’night, I’ll check in with you folks tomorrow.
Well I better sign of,f my battery on my laptop is warning me I am about to be shut down if I don’t go plug in!
Night!
Night all!
Those flippin’ signs!!
I mean that in both senses of ‘flipping’.
Its nice that flippable signs exist but this is a rural area and there is no one going around to change ‘may be blocked’ to ‘is blocked’ right away, nor should we have any proper or reasonable expectation that there would be.
As to ‘pressing onward’, I surely would have.
As to ‘pressing onward to the right’, I surely would have. Even in daylight, in good weather and knowing that the correct course is the less inviting one, I would have taken the turn to the right onto the lumber road! I’d certainly have done it with storm obscured views and storm-induced psychological pressure.
As to Airspace considerations, it remains a point that future reviews should focus on. I don’t see why a search helicopter has to ‘own’ the airspace or why search helicopters can’t coordinate grids and altitudes.
As to “Air asset utilization procedures” I think those have to be reviewed particularly in light of transitions from one county to another county. Its clear that Josephine County’s coordinator did not have a grasp on the air situation and did not particularly seem to have any desire to get a good grasp on the air situation.
Let us not forget that ‘thin threads’ are involved here. One more bag of potato chips in the car, one thin blanket, one more day, … a few hours less of confusion over the cell phone map, etc. Its unfortunate that he left the vehicle and even more unfortunate that he left the roadway, perhaps intent upon reaching the stream so as to make better time. He can understandably be considered less likely to be making optimal decisions after so many days of cold and hunger. However, SAR personnel should be held to a bit higher standards in their decision making: they are out there in uncomfortable and unfamiliar settings, but they have hot meals and hot coffee and resources available to them.
I look forward to the more detailed report that is yet to be released.
I do not look forward to Diane Feinstein’s grandstanding.
Madeleine, know what you mean about coming here to unwind, as contentious as some can be on here. Strange, isn’t it?
Sleep well.
Haven’t commented on the report as still haven’t had time to read it, but have it printed out, ready to read when I can.
As this section of Joe’s blog becomes more well known, more people are going to jump in here and try to ‘show us the light’ – a little country music played in the background, please Joe? – What they don’t get is
1. It’s perfectly OK to be emotional about an issue, if people didn’t get emotional about things, NOTHING would ever get accomplished anywhere in anything.
2. We have no problem with people having an opinion differing than the general one here, we have differences of opinions amoung ourselves, but it’s contentious and arguementative, & you people are so stupid attitudes that we have objections to.
When new people come, we’re too far down the line to repeat what issues we’ve disected in depth before, they should just be advised with a general statement and then suggested to they read the past post. They’re gonna whine & complain, but one can’t expect to jump into the middle of a month long – has it been THAT long! – on going communication and expect to be advised of everything that’s been discussed in the past and if they so choose to jump into the middle and have merit in their input over what we’ve previously covered, then they should be willing to spent the time to catch up. Not that ‘new comers’ aren’t welcome, new brains, new views.
3. There is nothing wrong with a group who share a similar opinion to gather together.
4. There are those who will not beleive that this blog has merritted those who were actually involved in this to actually post here and not where they have been posting.
It does no occur to those people that those officially involved who have posted here may possibily have done so because they realized there was a very great likely hood that they will be treated with respect and consideration, even if we have some tough questions for them or question their actions during the ordeal.
Now, for Joe’s theme music for this section of his blog, I strongly suggest Barney’s theme song…
I apologize. I insulted Brenda and grod as if this were my own forum. I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. I am sorry. I’ll try to keep a lid on it if its not too late, as I deserve total banning for such actions.
Respectfully,
mapper, would change my name to reflect who I am if it wouldn’t lead to total confusion (and my identity 🙂
904 – Laurie, I’m hoping it’ll turn out as well as your husband’s case did, thanks. I’m posting this as a public service message in the interest of peoople getting help quickly: Don’t mess around if you think something is wrong. Tell someone, call 911!
Mine didn’t say anything for over an hour while I was taking the puppy to the vet for eating an unnown substance and getting sick, probably a leftover piece of Christmas tree. He drove himself over to the vet’s to meet me there, still didn’t say anything, but the minute I got home behind him, he announced I needed to call 911 as I was walking in the door. Hello, you were out driving around having a heart attack??
Am leaving shortly to be there when they do the procedure this a.m., we’ll see the extent of the problem. Again, if anybody is not sure what’s happening to them, don’t take any chances. He had the chest tightness, was feeling dizzy and had pain in the roof of his mouth, which really threw him off base, wasn’t something he associated with a heart attack. No pain in the arm. And he had just been cleared for upcoming knee surgery with an exemplary EKG a few days ago, so go figure. Talk to y’all later, end of public health rant…
(911) Good luck Madeleine…best to your husband.
(888) Thanks for checking in Mike…sorry I missed you. I think all of us here now recognize the power of a blog to sway public opinion. This is definitely a tool that should be used by LE, SAR, etc…to get the word out and to provide a grass-roots level style of communication. This forum does the one thing a newpaper can never do – connect the public one on one with the people in the news.
I am hopeful this technology can finally provide a turning point for those really interested in learning about and from the truth to improve things as opposed to an activist jouralism approach which is subject to someone’s agenda with no real check and balance.
To all refer #816 – The last paragraph. This person came onto this blog with a contentious attitude, has consistently repeated the same tatics another person on the blog used, although not quite the extreme, but nearly so. Taking each statement, putting it in italics, then attempting to rip it apart, and to further proceed to present their interpertation & views as actual fact. This may well not be the same person but the same methods & attitude are displayed. That we are the ones refusing to listen to facts, THEIR facts. It seems the main intention of this person coming to this blog being to show us where we are all wrong & possibily in part to defend another’s views whom they agree with but who is no longer permitted on this board.
Mapper & Lisa, don’t let her tempt you. You both and Glen and others made very valid points to her points> she wants others to acknowledge her points as valid but refuses to acknowledge ANY of the points made here as valid. As with the other that was here, nothing one says makes any difference. That person, Brenda had a axe to grind when she came on this blog. If in doubt, read back through all her post.
Frances
I have always liked you.
I think it would be obvious to anyone who knows me (and that is starting to include some of you). I dont take back my words or thoughts.
I just apologize for putting them on Joe’s blog. If it were my blog it might be different. I just want to respect the rules, even if I dont always agree.
As for post 816 I think I stopped reading somwhere around where she called me a draftstmen (laughable). and only glanced at the last paragraph.
all I can say is, I truly believe no one from here followed pac anywhere, he mereley met the same resistance elsewhere, as I belive even we, havn’t had much time to devote to two message boards about this, especially since that one is so argumentive and not constructive.
I do appreciate what Joe’s blog has done, I think he is a very intelligent and tolerant guy and his initial blogging about the story has drawn a great group of people. I hope to stay on the right side of the law with him!
Madeleine,
As I have already said…best wishes and I am so sorry. I hope you come back with good news.
WOW – Looks like last night got a bit wild. I think I’m glad I was busy! Sounds almost like the virtual bar was indeed open and serving 🙂
So good morning and Great Coffee Today!
Nominations:
Best comment in the 800’s: RRR at 815 —local SAR, has an open mind to comments, appreciates many comments.
Best comment in the 700’s Orgungirl at 724 and 761 common sense and a human story (we all have one) about making a mistake in the outdoors (Mt. Hood), living thru it and learning.
Best comment in the 600’s: no winner, see Wiki entry on the “The Hundred Comments War”.
Best Comment in the 500’s: Brenda at 584,597 (90,104, 113, 185, and more) Beguiling Legal Briefs-
Best use of English Language (The Peter O’Toole Award): Fools Gold, body of work, see Cmt 908 which shredded the leading character, but retained the dignity of the Blog.
Best Comment in the 400’s: Maggie at anyplace she posted. Sensible, humane, decent, encouraging, affirmative.
Best Comment in the 300’s: Glenn at 374 for cell phone explanation and the broader view
Best Comment in the 200’s: Mapper at 258, 395 on technology and practical knowledge
Best Comment in the 100’s: Redmex at 160, 171 supporting a long time friend, Brian Anderson. Runnerup- Phil at 327, volunteer in JoCo SAR HQs, supporting SAR HQs please return and post.
Best Comment in the 00’s: Joe Duck at 01, Frances at 02 (determined)
Best promising newcomers: Mattman and Tara
Best old timers: Paul, Lisa, Madeline, Laurie, DH
Most presumptious comment– Bamadad at 917.(this one)
Hey Angela, It was Saturday night. Saturday nights’ alright for fightin’
(this a quote from an :”old”: song & those of you who know the song are telling your age, me included.
Mapper, I understand your desire to stay on the right side of the law here, but as for myself personnally, well, had no problem.
Have always liked you, too.
Ok, now HOW do you get those infamous italics already?
Gooooooooooooooooooooood Morning Blog!
Add Angela to Best Old Timers at 917
Fools Gold– what is your writing background? Any books, articles, essays, poems? Love the perspective and the slight twists you throw in.
Frances (918)
Here is a repost from one Joe did on Page Five for the italics:
Also note if you want to quote somebody you can cut and paste from their comment and put it in italics. To put things in italics just use the italic “tags” and put words in the middle of them: italics. Hmmm – I’m having trouble showing the tags, it’s the letter i inside less than and greater than symbols at the beginning of the italicized words and then this /i inside them at the end.
Barnadad – Thanks for the recap – that could have saved me wading through the Saturday night brawl 😆
RRR – Good Morming!
I’d love to buy you a cup of Dutch Brothers anytime!! I’ve always liked your posts and point of view and dedication – now that I know you are a Seahawks fan you are in even higher esteem in my book!
924- Well Thank you Angela- After last night I need that Dutch Bros this morning “crikey”! Its gets kinda wild in here sometimes…..
http://www.pageresource.com/html/textags.htm
Oh, thanks, Angela. You must’ve posted while I was searching.
Very Nice Frances—
Top of the morn’, RRR78.
My hats off to the media or at least “my” local media…..NO REPORTS!!!! I believe it may be a first in weeks…….*sigh of releif*
914 Frances, I could not disagree with you more about Brenda. She has collected the facts, made an effective presentation and made a conclusion that is unpopular about Spencer Kim’s air assets. Most of us say there is not enough info yet to reach that conclusion, if ever.
But to smear her by comparing her with Pac and his absolute vindictiveness, harassment, cruel comments toward the Kim family is so far of a stretch. It is unfair. To demonize her is improper.
What you are doing will prevent others from coming to this blog and giving their opinions, first hand accounts and links to facts. We all have to allow responsible dissent and responsible unpopular opinions. I hope Brenda will keep posting and use her skills to point out problems and improvements as more facts are developed.
This needs to be a tolerant, responsible place with just a touch of rowdy behavior to keep it interesting.
Frances at 926. Thank you for the link to enable me to make a bold comment. Take care. One of my best friends grew up in West Virginia, it is wonderful place.
‘Morning! 🙂
Does any one else not like the italics? It’s too slanted
for me! And it’s all narrow and smooshed together – it’s like the letters have no breathing room!
Hydration and Snow; Physiology 101?
This constitutes a slight ‘adide’ but I think it is an important issue to have mentioned somewhere and that it relates a bit to my earlier posts about the ‘thin margins’ which can be involved in a survival situation.
Just as it might have made a critical difference to have had one bag of potato chips in the car or one small thin blanket or one additional gallon of gasoline, so too it can be thought that having just a little bit more knowledge might have helped.
Now I am not a physician but I have been told that under no circumstances should one attempt to use body heat to melt snow. No matter how parched one’s throat may be and no matter how truly dehydrated a person can be, the amount of body heat that is expended in melting the snow is not worth the water that is gained.
I’m also told that if one wishes to convert snow into drinking water in a survival situation it is necessary to use some sort of external heat source such as a frying pan and a fire. One should never attempt to heat snow directly, but should pour some liquid into the bottom of the frying pan, add the snow and let the fire heat the liquid which will melt the snow. (I won’t mention what particular liquid may have to be used for this task but I am informed that despite any emotional reactions one may have to the mere thought it is better than trying to heat snow without any liquid already being in the pan).
And now the question: Can we get any physicans or physicists to confirm these points and can we get anyone to comment on the role that ingesting snow may have played in later mental functioning?
931 & 932
I have no problem with whatever her opinon is, but she presents it, as I said, taking each statement, putting it in italics, then attempting to rip it apart, and to further proceed to present their interpertation & views as actual fact. This may well not be the same person but the same methods & attitude are displayed. That we are the ones refusing to listen to facts, THEIR facts.
And I did not smear the Kim family.
I stand by what I said. Other’s here have voiced differences of opinion & differences of opinion but they do not tear each other down. I do not care for putting in their own interpertation & opinion as fact & when presented by others with facts, refuse to acknowledge that they have presented facts.
I’m not here to spear Brenda and she does make some very valid points.
Where in WV did your friend grow up. It has it good points and plenty of bad points.
931- Barnadad
About Brenda. I have no problem when Brenda presents actual
quoted facts, and points out what she see as discrepancies within the facts. I don’t even mind if she presents her opinion or conclusions respectfully.
But last night she was trying to build her case for blaming
Spencer Kim, and she was trying to force those who differed
with her at all to play ‘court case’.
And trying to insist that I was wrong to say she might be
wrong, just because I didn’t want to play ‘court case.’
Your honor, I do have objections to that!
I did not want to play ‘Attorney Brenda vs. Blogger Lisa Smackdown!’
And she did! And she got weird with Charles Manson, etc.
I’m sorry, but when you bring Charles Manson into your
post, that is not a good sign…
I don’t mind if she posts – as long as she ‘keeps it clean’, and doesn’t try to force court case games. That will not go over well. As we saw last night!
935.
I read something similar not too long ago. What I read also stated not to use snow unwarmed for thirst as the cold temp. tends to bring the body’s temp down even more when in a situation where it’s important to keep the body temp up.
Good points.
Good point Lisa, as you, I have no one objecting to voicing their opinions and or conclusions as long as they clarify it as such and not try to pass it off as facts.
937- I also was truly tired, and those italics are like
from a bad dream. I prefer using quotation marks – or
italics in bold.
939- Yes! She kept trying to say that I was “lying about the facts”, or “attacking the facts”, just because I was
disagreeing with her assumptions and conclusions. 🙂
Bamadad, that recap was enlightening and funny. I am glad I was included and surprised I can still win in category for newcomer.
I stayed under cover last night for the most part though reading to the bitter end from a safe distance.
Mapper, I applaud you.
Lisa, you make me laugh. out loud sometimes. in a good way. 🙂
942- Good Tara! 🙂
Fools Gold – (935) Such an excellent question about not using body heat to melt snow. Hopefully someone will have some info for us.
944- Here is a small info page about melting snow confirming the same thing…
http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch06/asch06p01.html#s1
Thank you RRR – I got frustrated trying to search. Say, do you have a recommended list of things for the ’emergency kit’ to carry around at all times. I have a five gallon bucket that I keep quite a few things in all the time. Just wondering what you would suggest?
Well, I must go. Hopefully can get back tonight.
Remember it’s no longer Saturday night, so fight’s are not ok, now!
935 – Along the same line… Does anyone recall this on Dateline, 48 hours, or one of those some time ago… a story about a couple and their baby caught in winter circumstances for days. I wish I had a better memory, but as I recall Mom fed the baby formula that wasn’t warmed and the baby did not survive.
935,944- I’m sure it’s not a good idea in weather and
situations that can easily lead to hypothermia.
Because everytime you use your own heat to heat the snow,
you loose that heat.
But I don’t think the Kims really had the luxury and resources to heat their snow.
Lisa—Cmt 937 Lisa you are correct I thought she got a little too cute trying to make a Manson joke, she misread her audience and got some deserved flak. Also her comments are so thorough, they must take hours to make, so just pick your battles, I think you did well last night.
And I hope we don’t have over-involved word battles among people from a zillion backgrounds. You recognize these are quicksand.
I think we will be surprised how Brenda (who I do not know at all) will slice it down the middle, when more facts come out.
Frances– Yes in Charleston, went on to become a cardiac surgeon.
When I get time I will tell you a story about driving back roads and your comment on Bear Camp several pages ago. You certainly made me see a different point of view.
At first I thought you were crazy to want to drive Bear Camp from the photos you saw. I have 40 years of experience with driving all over the States in mountains and snow-belts and in the Alps in snow country (military assignments). I grew up in snow country with long winters and blizzards. I hope I would have turned back early (probably because of distance to go, rocks in the road, a road that wasn’t the “thoroughfare” depicted on the map, low gas, snow, precious family “cargo”, low on survival supplies, etc.) So when I saw your comment and experience, I had to open my mind, so thanks for that. The signs are just a big trap up there and I bet I would have to have been extraordinarily careful not to get trapped at that fork.
946- Well I don’t really have a “list” am one to OVER pack ANYTHING…..Pretty much most of any of the Emergency Kits that are listed anywhere are pretty good…..I just suppliment to “personalize” for me, such has I have a hand crank radio that not only has a radio and flashlight but it has the capabilities to “charge” items such as cell phones
For me what I see is important is something to start a fire with…matches, paper, I even have just a little dry wood, dryer lint is a good fire starter and cost NOTHING and we all have it! Something I think is cool…I learned at a training is a 9 volt battery and steel wool….GREAT fire starter……
Water…I carry a cheep wal mart case of bottle water…..
And non parishable snacks….I have a camp stove with a propane bottle and some of those “dehydrated” back packer meals, cider
I make sure I can be warm, eat, and drink
The key is once you have all your stuff packed or organized CHECK IT….even non parishables can go bad
At one point they had a large tire fire. It may have been done but that would have been a good opportunity to melt and store (in whatever they had) an excess water supply.
RRR (951) Thank you so much!! My post requesting was so badly worded I wasn’t even sure I knew what I was saying; however you got it exactly (guess I need more coffee!)
Aren’t the new hand crank tools Great!! I gave several of them for Christmas gifts this year.
Thanks for the tip on the 9 volt battery steel wool – I want to go experiment this afternoon; and will definitely add to my bucket.
Also, I NEVER thought of lint as an emergency fire starter – which is pretty funny because I’m almost OCD about cleaning it out the entire pathway to outside to prevent a fire.
Thanks so much!! Of course reruns of MacGuyver would also be helpful 😉 Seriously, I’ll add the lint steel wool and fresh 9-volt today! THANKS!!
MacGuyver Fire Starting 101:
http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/cokeandchocolatebar/
953- Just remember to NOT store the battery and steel wool together!!!! And kids don’t try it at home WITHOUT adult supervision!!!!
For those of you “men” who work with wood, saw dust is a great fire starter……you can take an egg crate and fill it with sawdust and melt paraphin over it…..let it cool break them apart and there you a have fire starters also….Still need the source of fire but they burn for a good long time…..
I of course have those “commecial” survival kits to SUPPLIMENT my own kit…..Needless to say I have stratigicly packed a 24 gallon rubbermaid tub for the back of my car,……
952- That’s true tara. My guess is they didn’t have a lot
to store an excess water supply in, and can you imagine
the taste of water that’s heated over and in the smoke of a tire fire? That kind of smoke can be so thick, and soooo
smelly, that it can really affect the taste of whatever you’re trying to heat or cook.
Gayle at 948
Survival
Discovery and the Discovery Science Channels have two shows on wilderness survival. (Man vs Wild and Survivorman– Interesting for adults and kids.) I have recorded most of them over the last month or so. I am a fairly good outdoorsman and have learned much.
A month ago, Les Stroud (Survivorman)(yes quite a name) had a special about the family who survived the 14 or so days in Nevada during the winter. They lost all their toes to frostbite and barely made it.
He showed very respectfully what could be done to improve the situation. One interesting thing was his using the car seats to fashion a pair of mukluks (Arctic type boots) which saved his feet from frostbite during a 40 mile walk out thru deep snow. The stuffing and the leather were cut up and wrapped around his feet with strips of cord. He also cut up a plastic suit bag that the family had to make it waterproof. He discarded his normal low quarter hiking shoes. (This knowledge alone might have saved James, if James had a knife or something sharp to rip the seats.)
Both survivalists pace themselves to never break into a sweat in cold weather- that leads to hypothermia. They always have the capability to make fire and warm up– so Les eats snow on occasion in an emergency if he is at a very high elevation above treeline. Their goal is to descend to treeline, find a path or a road and walkout. they understand the psychological aspects of survival as well. If they were at all close to hypothermia, they would not eat snow, but rather make a fire and then melt snow.
These are two very fit, experienced, solo men who spend seven days or so in various wilderness areas with very little- a leatherman multitool or maybe a knife, maybe a firestarter (flint and magnesium) and maybe an empty canteen with a metal cup. They make fire, shelter, get water and signal for help, last they worry about food.
They never have had to worry about a partner or a family in the same situation or worry about a baby’s health. However, it is clear to me, that the Kims situation would have been easy for them to overcome within two days, while providing maximum comfort to the three family members.
I hesitate to make this last statement, because probably one in a thousand people have similar skills. and I have said that I think James was extremely resourceful during the ordeal at the site of the car.
Warning: English “majory” comment, read at your own risk or interest!
Early on, in another blog, there was a doctor who said this story played out like a classic Greek tragedy, which is true in some ways. But their tragedies always involve the powerful roles of of their gods. It reminds me even more of Shakespeare, whose plays were all about heightened situations and the roles of power struggles and beliefs – how they contribute to action, and often a final tragic outcome.
Here we can see it all playing out… James was young, desperate, heroic, optimistic. His father was trying to help save him using his own power and wealth, then there were the powers of the state and local authorities, and local people, all playing off each other, all affecting each other and the outcome. All the major players had roles.
All had good intentions, all made mistakes.
But I think there is no doubt, that Shakespeare too, would
have seen James, his heart, his plight, his heroic efforts,
as the true hero…
Thx to Bamadad – several interesting Survivorman tips are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorman
😀 Attention 😀
Unless a lot of people ask for a new page this one will stay up until late tonight.
Good afternoon Blog! The time has finally arrived where I feel I can contribute and share ideas with many of the fine people posting here. In the last month, the exchange of information, problem solving, and the desire to help facilitate positive changes in SAR, has been riveting to me. So much so, that I find myself reading way too late into the night. And, I have come to respect and admire so many of you who have put forth that effort! I almost wish I enjoyed a good cup of coffee, so I could lift a cup of Dutch Bros. in honor of you all. But, alas, I am a tea connoisseur.
Like many of you, I am not quite sure why the Kim Family tragedy has touched me so deeply. My family often turns to the Cnet web site for technology information, and always enjoyed James Kim’s reviews. In fact, my son and I were perusing the site together, when their initial news flash was first displayed there. We were both gripped with feelings of concern for him and his family. It was that concern, and desire for information, that led me to the Joe Duck blog a few days later. Another reason for my interest is that my family is privileged to call the 6 million acre Adirondack Park in upstate New York, our home for a good part of the year. From the knowledge I have gained here and elsewhere, it seems as if the Adirondacks, shares many of the same attributes of scenic beauty and wilderness areas, as the Rogue River Wilderness. Along with a plethora of endless, unmarked logging roads. Having spent so much time there, I guess I have a kindred feeling of awe and respect for the wild that many have expressed here. Of course, I now realize that sometimes that respect is not what it should be due to a false sense of security. I guess that is why I have so much empathy for the Kim Family. None of us are perfect.
What with the Holidays and family/life responsibilities now easing up, I hope to participate more often. I give great thanks to Joe for providing this blog to all interested parties in such a fair minded manner. And, I appreciate the input of people such as RRR, JoCoSAR, Det. Mike, Undersheriff Anderson, Kati’s Dad, and all of you who post here, CONSTRUCTIVELY and without derision. You have my admiration.
960- Welcome Adirondacker! We look forward to hearing more from you!
931 – I have to disagree. There is a difference between validly making a point, which I concede Brenda does well, and flogging an issue to death and refusing to concede other equally valid issues. Brenda also exihibits, as Mapper pointed out, an extreme air of superiority that I, personally, find most offensive. Humility is a trait I admire, hubris is not.
935 – I had some wilderness survival classes in college and it totally meshes with what I learned there. It is always one of the issues with lost or stranded mountain climbers…if they don’t have a stove to melt snow, they are usually doomed after a certain point.
Bamadad, I liked your awards, very creative and entertaining, thank you for the honorable mention. No disrespect in 962, I just disagree…respectfully.
I thought of a new question last night. I know they say that
they usually use the heat-seeking helicopters late at night.
But I wonder if in future instances where a family is missing in their vehicle, if it might not make sense to try and use the helicopters during the day, when the family would be more likely to be outside of their vehicle…
It certainly doesn’t seem like it could hurt, and it could
be more effective than using standardly equipped helicopters
in densely forested areas.
Yes, the more I think about it – why can’t they use them during the day? Does anyone know?
Welcome Adirondacker – I have visited your beloved park and agree it is beautiful, especially in mid-October!!
Barnadad – Thanks for the Survivorman info and the link from Joe. Even better than MacGuyver reruns 🙂 !!
Lisa – yes, the story does hold all the Shakespearan elements; also a lot of the mytholical elements. Joseph Campbell could no doubt do a wonderful lecture on this story if he were still with us.
966- oops mytholical should be mythological
Adirondacker – nice to have you here and thanks for the kind words. I grew up in Plattsburgh NY and have spent a few nights and hikes up in that beautiful Adirondack forest.
966- Yes, Angela – love Joseph Campbell! A hero himself! 🙂
I was wondering you seem to get a good grasp on a lot of more technical things – have you already revealed your areas of expertise? (or interests, etc.!)
I sent that and then I remembered something about you saying you were an attorney? (Not that it’s bad! 🙂 )
970- Here, it’s more about how you use your power! For good, or selfish reasons! (in general!) 🙂
Thank you, those who have posted the survival sites.
Before you get off the subject (this is my first experience blogging or perusing a forum of any kind and you move fast!), I have questions. Hopefully this has not already been belabored.
1. How do you start a tire on fire?
2. Was it advisable to burn all four tires at the same time. I would guess this was to get attention, make their location known.
3. My experience burning the windfall debris on my lot at the lake in rainy weather leads me to believe that a hot fire will burn almost anything, including wet evergreen branches (they dry quickly from the heat of the fire and burn fast), found woody debris. I can’t get a handle on why they didn’t keep a fire going the whole time. Perhaps it rained too hard at times, but seems there were some long periods where it was dry, or just foggy. Not as a criticism, just thinking of what I would do. Want to know what’s advisable.
Also, looking for a great website I got from Cnet–Field and Stream where you can take a 10 question survival test. I failed even after days of survival self-education.
Here’s a link about how thermal energy technology can be
used in daylight:
http://www.iejs.com/TechnologyandCrime/Law_Enforcement_Technology/thermal_imaging.htm
Lisa
🙂 actually no legal background for me 🙂 Though thanks for the comments!
Probably a jack of all trades fits best for me – though I have had wonderful opportunties working with some very talented and specialized people.
Here is the link to Field and Stream as provided on the CNET/Kim blog. Lots of interesting information including survival kits you can make. You can get to the survival challenge test from here, but the link is not working. It includes questions about survival knowledge (the 10 we should know) I hadn’t heard of, which is why I failed.
I hope this comes up as a link. If not can you show me how to do it?
http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/outdoorskills/article/0,13199,1120078,00.html
😀 ATTENTION 😀
Several of you have your own blogs or websites and I’d encourage you to think about adding that URL when you comment. Then your name will be linked to your blog (as mine is in my posts).
Of course this is _not_ required and it’s up to you.
You can link to a specific page in your blog or website as well, so it might be neat for people with blogs to expand on your thinking about the Kim story and then link your name to that specific page at your blog. This would give commenters here more control. It is also fine to put any *relevant* links to your own blog/website or other ones in these posts.
The test link is http://www.fieldandstream.com/fieldstream/photogallery/article/0,13355,1221831,00.html
It is under Related Articles when you scroll down. Still it isn’t working. Maybe too many people used it and wore it out.
This is a change of topic, but it is a big question mark for me still….Why James went into the Windy Creek drainage. I thought maybe the report would shed some light on that, but it didn’t really (at least not that I saw.) I remember that one of the officers giving a press release, in response to a question about why James went into the drainage, said that he would like to ask him that personally himself. (I don’t know the name of the officer–the guy who seemed really dedicated and cried at the end. I’d have to go back and read an article to recall the name.) Then, it came out later that Kati indicated that it was a plan based on the belief that the creek went down to Galice. This contradicted the implication from the officer at the press conference that they didn’t know why James went down into the drainage. Perhaps it doesn’t matter one way or the other, but I am still curious to know if 1) James’s decision to go into the drainage was planned, or more of a spur of the moment decision, and 2) If the search folks knew that it was a calculated decision, why did they feel the need to represent that they didn’t know if it was calculated or not?
Here is a link with clearer, easier to read information,
graphs, etc.:
http://www.temperatures.com/thermalimaging.html
And here is a quote from it:
“What is invisible to humans, particularly when only thermal infrared is present, can be “seen” by a thermal imager, or more precisely, a thermal imaging camera, especially at night. It works in daylight, too, and one can easily see the surprising differences in appearance of any object from emitted thermal “light” to reflected visible light. The shape will be the same but the brightness distribution and shadows look very different even in black and white and more pronounced when viewed in false colors.”
974- Sorry Angela, I must have gotten that mixed up with
someone else!
(931) Bamadad not sure we are getting all the facts around Spencer Kim interfering with air deployment. We definitely need many more facts before we can determine that.
As I said in one of my last posts to Brenda that she should keep digging and presenting information – I think we are a little leary of anything being reported. I am not sure it has anything directly to do with the Kims…even though with Brenda pounding that point over and over again it started to look like that. I think that is why people responded that way.
Joy (978),
Yes, this has been quite the source of speculation on this website early on. Most seemed to believe that James felt lost on the roads and rivers can be a good navigational tool. Though this also goes to comments about ‘profiling’ those who are being searched for. Understanding their thought process could help find them.
In the spirit of sharing blogs/websites per Joe:
Here is my blog entry re: the Kims–My blog is basically a bunch of baby pics for my family, but the Kim story got the attention of my family as well (I got private emails in addition to the comments)
http://aisforamelia.blogspot.com/2006/12/positive-thoughts-for-this-family.html
Here is my law firm’s website:
http://www.arkwiley.com
Actually we are going to be adding a blog to the site in the next few weeks that will deal with immigration law updates.
Joy RE: James into Windy Creek. (guessing here) My thinking is that he assumed that following the river (unlike following spur roads) eventually must lead to cities.
We know he started out thinking he was 4 miles from Galice so might have thought he was going wrong way.
Unlikely he had any idea how hostile the hiking would be there and he was probably not thinking very well by this time, so as he headed up and into more snow the lower elevations seemed very preferable. (Unfortunately for some of those nights it was actually colder in the lower elevations as reported by a TV weatherman).
It was an unwise decision, particularly since his footgear was already inadequate. People often think that a creek will lead to civilization and will be a way of making faster and perhaps easy progress over the terrain but wet feet means loss of body heat at a very high rate and it means difficulty negotiating the terrain. Its better to stay on roads if at all possible but after several days of no food and no heat thought processes suffer and a sense of his family’s situation being desperate weigh even more heavily on his mind.
978- Joy
It was Brian Anderson who said that.
I don’t think it was a ‘calculated’ decision. When Kati
tells her story, we may learn if she and James talked about
him trying to take the road all the way, and/or trying any potential short cuts. She knew where he was headed to go,
and they were looking at the map together.
It sounds to me like he thought it would be a short cut,
more direct than the windings of the road. And SAR also
didn’t know how ‘calculated’ or not it was by James.
Lisa (979)
No problem, and I’m really not trying to be secretive – I really do a lot of different things and often struggle with the simple question of occupation. Often I put down Instructor specializing in continuing education, which is also non-descript. I do have a degree in Business and have worked on national policy setting committees.
More fun is that I’m in a grad program studying mythology and archetypes. From that perspective it has been a complete study just watching the different posts on this blog!
😀 Attention 😀
Fine to leave survival tips in comments here, but better to leave Survival Tips links at this new page below – later I’ll link that page up to other sections for easier reference. https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2007/01/07/survival-tips-and-survival-kits/
Joe – Thank you!!! As always you are such a wonderful host for us. I for one am really appreciating the survival info.
960 – Welcome Adriondacker!
Joe, great idea about survival tips on its own page. You take such good care of us 🙂
Since I am now interested in the thermal imaging aspects
here and for future cases, I think it is interesting that
the person who finally ordered the thermal imaging helicopters to fly Monday night was Spencer Kim.
I know that during the days one of the issues could have
been other people in the area. But it seems like SAR could
have cleared out themselves as well as any public they
came across, and have a thermal imagining helicopter fly.
Even with numerous hot spots, it seems it would narrow it
down a lot more than trying to scan the roads with the naked eye from the helicpoters, especially with so much
tree cover.
Hello all. Love this site. Forgive me, Im new at this and I am a shy and quiet type person. Hello RRR, Im sure we know each other, I am a ground pounder for JOCO SAR. I do have that darn gag placed in my mouth also. Just wanted to say YES some of us are here, just better at listening than speaking. YES this site is helpful, useful and sometimes funny. As a SAR member I want to say we stand behind Sara R. And we are the ones that requested the OSSA review, because we want any questions answered. And if the review shows there is anything we could have done different, that would have made a difference we want to know. We want to help people, the best we can. Sorry Phil, I had to say something.
RE: James & Big Windy – this is one where we are not going to know for sure unless Kati chooses to say more, and even then his state of mind at that time must have been desperate to say the least. I find the Galice Creek leading to Galice theory the most compelling, but I thought I read somewhere here or elsewhere that he crossed several other drainages before heading down BW. I need to check a map on that.
990- typo!
“Since I am now interested in the thermal imaging,” etc.
991- Welcome!!
(935) It take 80 calories to convert one gram of ice into one gram of water. This same energy would changed the temp of one gram of water by 80 deggrees had water been ingested rather than ice! Hence, it absobs much energy from the body when eating snow / ice.
Welcome Suzyq !!…good to have you here. We most definitely welcome the comments and participation of SAR to the degree that they can and are pleased that so many have chosen to contribute to JD. (Apologies for being presumptious and speaking in plural “we”) 🙂
(984) Very bad decision considering his clothes. I have to think he only thought it was going to a mile or so and probably didn’t realize how treacherous it would be – but after so many days without food, etc…who knows what he was thinking except to do something to try to save his family.
(991) Looking forward to the day we can call engage in healthy and helpful discussions. Thanks for dropping in.
Phil you just gotta let these guys loose – they have to be going nuts by now.
Welcome suzyq! It’s so good to have another SAR person here!
Suzyq – are you being monitored too ?….we have heard that from RRR and JoCoSar…rumblings of strange cars parked outside their homes, being followed, etc. It all seems very over the top for a SAR investigation.
991- Thanks suzyq for saying something! We’re happy the
site is helpful to SAR too! 🙂
Thanks all. Now I’ll just sit back and “lurk”, I think the right word is.
Don’t worry suzyq they don’t bite here on th blog!!!
Welcome suzyq – thanks for checking in.
I know a lot of the Josephine County SAR folks have been reading and it must really be frustrating that you cannot correct problems with the reporting or add to comments here.
I am a little confused about why investigators think the gag order is a good idea at this late time in this particular case. Clearly some newspapers and national media have not reported several important details accurately and letting people talk about this would shine more light, not less, on the most truthful interpretation of all the information.
But certainly I want to encourage full compliance with that order and discourage SAR folks from posting anything they feel could jeopardize the investigation or get them in trouble.
Hi Suzyq, thanks for stopping by and your nice words (and the other new names I have seen here today).
Joe,
I was thinking about creating an anonymous blog or something, but thats no fun really! Identity issues…..and if the people I have upset find out how good looking I am, it could really ruin their day 😉 not that they read what I write. But still, must be cautious! So I doubly thank you for this anonymous posting enviornment and discussion.
1003 – Though we’ve been known to get a little silly late at night…that or someone momentous drops in and all kinds of cool stuff gets discovered (re our detective,etc.).
(1000)-Paul, can’t say the same. But I do have a neighbor that looks out the window at me when I get home. Maybe something there……….LOL
1005/Mapper: don’t berate yourself too much over last night, someone needed to say something. I came so close to saying more/same but only withheld in the sincere belief that, like the previous “movie”, this one would be in re-runs forever were I to watch it even once. Having said that, I do, and will, strive to comply with the nice guy in the striped shirt with the whistle.
986- Angela, you don’t go to Pacifica, do you? I had a
friend who went there, and I almost went there…
Lisa,
I’m not big on the italics either, or even bold, or any formatting either really (you may have even noticed my lack of consitency with grammar and capital letters).
Formatting alone wont set me off, but when its indulged in with a dose of astounding superiority it gets under my skin, mixed with opinions presented as facts, I can’t seem to help myself.
But now that I know its the trigger (lots of formatting), I can take control and get help!
I’m relieved a few of you felt the same way, though maybe not all 3 conditions sent you to the darkside as much as me.
🙂
oh, but for some reason smiley’s dont bother me!
Thanks Paul!
(1004)-Joe D. The order was placed after some people had talked to reporters. Thing were taken out of context, or made to look like facts instead of someones opinion. Which can make it harder. People that read the papers can/will take it for fact. We are not trained in PR, so someome thought it best if we just kept quiet until all is said and done. I was chomping at the bit to reply to some of the comments I have seen and only with the knowledge in the small part I played. Now I think I will go back to my dark corner.
Suzyq-
That must have been difficult, especially if you were reading after we read the first critical oregonian article. I think we are all more careful now, as some of us were a bit naive, okay…. speaking for myself there!
960 – Welcome, Adirondacker. 🙂
It’s nice to see another tea drinker (lifting my tea cup to you)here among all the coffee people.
I have been both to the Klamath Range in OR and was raised just south of the Adirondacks (Fonda), where we spent a lot of winter time. You’re so right about the similar terrain.
1005- Mapper, I agree. I think we all try to control ourselves, but sometimes it is very challenging. Sometimes in the heat of things – it all gets a little out of control. It’s called the theory of ‘matching energies’ –
energies rise up to match each other. Heat sparks heat, etc.
And Joe said something last night about how he thought it was interesting that the people more directly involved in this case SAR, LE, family members were the ones who were being the most calm and diplomatic.
I think when you’re part of the situation, you feel more
responsible for it. You realize that there were mistakes all around, and you feel even less right finger-pointing, or
focusing on a lot of mistakes.
What is great about this blog is that most everyone is here
to help make things better! I think that is why it is mostly
such a good experience. And if it was too dull we’d all fall
asleep!
In an alarming development, I must confess that Joe Duck has caused me to double my coffee consumption, largely to offset the debilitating effects of staying up far too late when someone new and noteworthy drops in for the 1st time (yes, I mean you JoCoSar, Detective, and RRR)…not that I would have it any other way! To much caffeine ?? 😯 …nah…
1016 -ok, I was trying to get the guy with the wide open eyes, but did something wrong…
Paul you were correct with 8 followed by capital O, but your period right after it killed the little guy – just fixed it. Hey, that dude 😯 looks like … ME!
Paul and Glenn– thanks for your comments.
Orygungirl:
you asked about “I can’t get a handle on why they didn’t keep a fire going the whole time.”
I think it has to do with the wet, soaked wood and the huge effort it would take to collect dry wood in any quantity. I don’t think they had a saw or ax, so it would have to be deadfall and without proper shoes, you risk frostbite/hypothermia if you are out for an hour or two. You would have to collect deadfall from the base or under trees. That is just my recollection from driving near Gold Beach. I did live in Washington State and found that to be true in some of those damp Nat Parks in late fall and winter.
I remember seeing a picture of the SAAB on the day or day after rescue. (Can anyone find this photo?)
It looked like it was setting in two to four inches of water. If that is true it would explain why no fire. The car is the shelter and properly so, but the fire would have to be elsewhere on dry land on top of rocks or dry huge logs. The baby risks exposure if taken to the fire, the little girl gets soaked if she steps in the mud or snow. Quite a mess. This is why it is remarkable they did as well as they did for that whole ten days.
When most of us were little and played in the snow (actually near the Adirondacks)– we could last about two or three hours– then we were soaked and basically needed Mom’s EMT skills to revive us with soup and standing in front of the cast iron stove or fireplace. Then after two hours of TLC we went out again.
Paul, my natural rhytyms are completley messed up, and I keep trying to fix it, and can’t! Just the talk of all the coffee here, too, has added to my consumption!
:8O:
1010- Mapper, anotherwords, I was having a hard time last night too. 🙂
It got pretty frustrating and relentless! 🙂
(1020) Try two things…OJ (not from concentrate) and melatonin. They will get your schedule adjusted. The lag feeling will go away.
Welcome SuzyQ and Adirondacker
someone else has a tire question. Long CNN article Dec 8th
Tire Question:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WEATHER/12/08/kim.survival/index.html
Servis (SAR expert) said survivors should be prepared to burn tires to create life-saving heat and to signal searchers, as the Kims did.
“Let the air out of your tires and burn the spare tire first,” Servis said. “A tire will burn from 12 to 24 hours and put out heat and black smoke. Use a little gasoline from your car and a road flare or battery jump cable to ignite the tire.”
James had magazines to use as kindling and matches or a lighter.
1022/1023 Sssshhhhhhh!!!…you’re gonna jinx us and they’re gonna come back….like Jack Nicholson in “The Shining” – “Here’s Johny !!!” 🙂
Smileys can be very therapeutic! 🙂
I may have to turn to them as my version of glenn’s ‘lol’!
(1026) All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!
1025 – If one tire will burn 12 to 24 hours, that implies they did, indeed, burn all 4 at once. I’m not trying to second guess, but why wouldn’t they string them out to make them last longer ? Maybe to get more intense heat ? I’ve never burned a tire so I have no sense of how intensely they burn or how much heat they put out.
Test Yourself: Could You Survive Being Stranded In Your Vehicle?
http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/survival/article/0,19912,1566241,00.html
1028 – Redrum, Redrum, Redrum, Redrum, Redrummmmmmm.
Barnadad,
Thank yo for your thought. I build fires at least once a year during the rainy season or just after the first snow (when permitted)at both my home and at my cabin at 5000′, which is very similar in vegetation to Bear Camp area, where I have camped. I think is is possible, but would require the gathering from under the canopy. Won’t go into detail as to gathering of material, but the fire bed stays warm until the next day after a good hot day long fire. I just think the Kims didn’t think of this as an advantage for the warmth, signaling and ability to dry out clothes, etc.
I just have to let the Kim’s “what if’s” go after all this time and focus on the search as the rest are doing.
Your snow play story beings back fond memories of my kids and our wonderful sledding years. Extra snowsuits and mitts helped get them, and me, back out sooner. I can’t imagine being a mom in Kati’s circumstances and look forward to her story of how they handled the kids so well. I read somewhere that James pretended it was a camp out.
1026- ok! 🙂
1030 – Thanks Gayle for the working link. Haven’t taken it yet, but I wonder how well I’ll do…
1025,1029
Paul, I think they burned all four tires at once as a big signal fire.
“Let the air out of your tires and burn the spare tire first,” Servis said. “A tire will burn from 12 to 24 hours and put out heat and black smoke. Use a little gasoline from your car and a road flare or battery jump cable to ignite the tire.”
I generally don’t have a lighter with me, but will in the future. Do you put the battery jump cable (already attached to the battery) two ends together to make a spark? I always have cables with me. I didn’t know this. I will read the article, but would love the answer to this question.
Click to access wshandbk02.pdf
Montana’s Take Along Winter Survival Handbook April 2002-Fifth Edition
Joe, not sure on protocol, this seems to be the most current edition. Glove Box item.
I am not religious, but I know some survival experts say to carry a Bible,(Koran or whatever) you can use it to pass the time, burn it for kindling (respectfully) and if you survive you’ll probably buy one or two more. Wink!!
968 – Thanks for the welcome, Joe. I knew there was a reason I liked your blog! Plattsburgh, huh? Any chance you were there because of the Air Force Base?
And thanks to Lisa, Angela, Maggie, Bamadad, and Gayle (fellow tea drinker…..and Fonda, NY?….I’m really feeling at home) for their words of welcome!
There is something I wanted to ask the group since the release of Mr. Spencer Kim’s statement in the Washington Post, yesterday. I’d like to comment on his second point regarding privacy law. I know all of you have spoken of an increased interest in survival practices and emergency kits for your car, but, has anyone given any thought to releasing credit card information to a family member or trusted family friend? I know I did shortly after the Kim Family’s disappearance, and I feel a bit more comfortable having done so. I also plan to call my cell phone service provider this week to see if I can allow permission for a family member to have access to my account if need should arise. I realize this might not be something everyone feels comfortable doing, but, was curious if you had thought of it?
Apologies to those suffering from caffeine dependence, but I usually can only get a few minutes in the wee hours to check in, but always interested even if only in catching up on the day’s conversations.
Mike,
We appreciate you checking in – no matter what time of day!
Adirondacker,
I thought of giving family members the CC numbers, good idea about the cell phone.
I’ll email this today thanks to your reminder. Also a copy of your passport to go with it. Yes, today.
My pup wants to go for a hike before it gets dark, so after that.
1037 – Adirondacker – now THAT’s the type of idea that can be invaluable by being shared in a forum such as this. And that’s the type of thing that can make or break a difficult MPERS (oops, sorry…missing persons) investigation, when LE is blockaded by privacy laws or the blockade du jour. Thanks very much for sharing – just one of a number of very intriguing ideas I have heard here.
1037 – Adrondacker, we discussed quite a bit pages back about the privacy issue with credit cards, and I think yours is probably the easiest and most likely solution any of us can take until (hopefully) something else can be done on another level to get the information to proper authorities as a matter of course in these situations. I haven’t gone anywhere since all of this happened, but when I do, I will be giving that information to someone. The question is still what exactly they might be able to do with it, but it’s a step in the right direction and a better place to start than with no information at all.
1038 – Hi there, Det Mike! Always nice when you can stop in. Do you have any idea how far LE could get if they did have even just the credit card number? Would that be enough to start getting the records from the credit card company?
1043 – I guess what I’m asking is whether further “authorization” of sorts would be required from the card holder or whether just being LE is enough for credit card companies to provide the valuable info once you have the number.
Adirondacker –
Excellent! When I traveled last moth I left a full itinerary with two family members and one friend. It included hotel reservations / phone numbers of hotels / where meetings were held etc. On that Itinerary I designated several times that I committed to checking in – at least every 48 hours. Just a quick call /text that we had arrived at destination or whatever. I did list which credit card we were using though not the number and which cell we had with us. I think I will include the credit card number from now on. Thanks for the idea.
1045- Nice to see that people actually leave a track of where they are going…Have to say I am guilty of not doing so…I am just such a spur of the moment person
1037 – Yes, Adirondacker, I grew up near Fonda, NY in the Mohawk Valley. Spend time in Long Lake, Indian Lake and Lake George, especially, back then. Now in MN after 20 yrs in the Pacific NW’s WA and OR.
It was probably an odd suggestion I made pages back, but I’ll share it again… to add to the car survival kit: old CD’s to use to reflect light and signal or to leave a trail if you leave the car. We always seem to have a lot of them around, use some for coasters on the desk by the computer.
(1046) Thanks RRR – I have been guilty in the past myself – However this trip was December 11th – the whole Kim story was far to fresh to take off on a long multi-destination trip without a good trail of crumbs.
1037. 1041
Do the CC companies allow this? I didn’t know that you could request this of them….
1041- So detective Mike, I am curious – does that mean that even if an officer or officers had been sent to the hotel, are the current privacy laws such that cc info can’t be given out at all to LE?
1049- Each merchant who has a CC machine has access to CC info…..it is just as simple as pushing a couple of buttons and you would have it….
To take 1037 idea even a bit further, consider, as Adirondacker suggested with cell account, contacting CC companies to add an emergency contact as an “authorized access” person, as merely having the CC #s usually won’t get you the information you;d be seeking in an exigent circumstances situation.
I have great respect for Spencer Kim and I, too, found him to be a man of incredible fortitude in my limited telephone conversations with him. I found him to be an incredibly critical thinker, who obviously has a propensity for wanting to find solutions, rather than being one to just sit back and complain or judge. Personally, I was also moved by his unwavering commitment to and love for his family.
The one drawback to his suggestion (keeping in mind that it is realized he is just throwing ideas out, with the assumption that they could be further refined later), regarding making CC #s and cell phone info available to immed. family upon request in emergencies, is that it would have to encompass Adirondacker’s idea, as well, to be certain it was pre-approved by the CC or cell phone acct. holder, to avoid problems such as domestic viol situations, etc.
1049
oh, sorry, I misread your post…you mean just leaving the cc info with family or friend?
I thought you meant something else…like calling the cc company and giving them the name of a persont that could access your account.
Cell Phone records – This could be a pretty simple release through www with each travel itinerary. Most companies have the option to keep an online record of your calls in and out. All you would have to do is give the trusted family member the web address, your user ID and password; and they could access your call records. Of course if you wanted to maintain privacy you could just update your password upon return from the trip.
Mapper (1049) If a family member had the CC numbers they could give it to LE if needed – just more information to ascertain last known position.
I really appreciate everyone’s ideas – I know I’m becoming more educated! THANKS!
time for more coffee 🙂
RE: do “privacy laws” allow for sharing of info w/ LE… there is no law, per se, but has been referred to, with respect to this case, is the privacy policy of the particular Portland hotel which chose to not provide the requested info to LE, despite the circumstances. I do feel I should point out, despite having experience much frustration that evening, that the company, as a private entity, has the right to refuse such information under the law, in the absence of a court order or sorts, which was unavailable at that hour.
As for whether CC info would have changed anything that night, I can’t speak to that at this time. But I don’t mind saying the reason we seek info such as CC and cell from a hotel, is to help narrow down the scope of our searching and make the most efficient use of limited investigative resources. Also, going to a CC company w/ specific info tends to get us a lot farther when we’re basically asking for voluntary compliance from the CC co., under exigent circumstances. It varies from CC co. to co. based not only on the company policies but on which LE representative we deal with when we call.
I know no one asked, specifically, but there are two parts to LE requesting info from companies such as CC or cell companies which come into play in MPERS investigations. If any interest, I’ll elaborate, but otherwise, it’s just sort of a technical part to what we do that no one ever really sees.
Orygungirl On using battery to start fire
Well I have never done this, saw it on a Discovery Survivorman Show (Winter Plane Crash episode in North Canadian Bush) recently– he had never done it either-dangerous. The show had a bunch of warnings. So I think I’ll defer to the internet. Here is a pretty responsible site with various methods:
http://simplesurvival.net/fireandemer.htm
oops…sorry…MPERS = Missing Persons
Det. Mike,
Yes, I would like to know about getting information on MPERS.
THANKS!!
I guess I am still a bit confused about we could do. So, is the best thing to do, call my cc company and give them a name of person, say, my father as an emergency contact?
I’m slow this afternoon….
1056 – Thanks, Det Mike. I think many of us could understand the hotel’s reluctance, especially with the ID theft as rampant as it is. Still extremely frustrating, but understandable.
This is an issue that I do hope an be addressed so that if a credit card number is known, vital and timely information may be provided. I’ve thought that it might almost be easiest if done though the credit card companies themselves, somehow. At a very primitive and simple level, even if they just had lists of legitimate LE contacts so that if they received a request from someone claiming to be LE, they could call that person back from their “list” that they know is legitimate. Obviously, this is not perfect with all of the list updating (though if done electronically, not on paper, this could be painless), etc., that would need to be done, but as a concept, I thought it would make some sense.
In any case, something standardized that gets vital information quickly into the proper hands gets my vote.
1056- Thank you Det. Mike! So in this instance with this hotel’s rules, it didn’t make a difference whether the hotel was just called or officers were there in person? I’m just asking because that was one of the questions we’ve had.
It didn’t matter if officers had showed up – there would
have had to have been a court order?
I’ll try to break my thoughts up a bit more, since it seems I tend to run-on, while typing. In a nutshell, everyone always hears, on tv, media, etc…. police were told to “get a subpoena/search warrant/court order,” etc., when requesting info about an investigation. What most don’t realize (and why should they unless they deal with it daily) is that subpoenas are issued by the local district atty’s office and the results are submitted by LE to a criminal grand jury to get “permission” to open the results to be used for the pending investigation….
1057 – Elaborate away! It’s great having you here with such insight.
1061, 1062, 1063 – give me a sec (I type slowwwly) and I think I can clear that up a bit.
The problem (sometimes) w/ MPERS investigations is that being missing, per se, is not a crime. Therefore, how can I go to a grand jury, after submitting a subpoena for info, and raise my hand and swear under oath that I believe there is probable cause (at least 51% legal certainty, based on the totality of the circumstances – sorry for the legal jargon, but it’s what we’re required to work under daily) – to have the GJ allow the use of whatever documents, etc. were received by subpoena….
Repost from my 369:
“For Det Mike, thanks for participating– I was happy to see how fast this search formed on Thursday and Friday. You and the SF police were in no small part responsible for that.
Did you add any context to the cell phone engineer info, when transmitted to the State Police? Did you know if Fuqua could draw a map of likely locations of last cell phone use? Does this rise to the top of the pile of tips? Is it (aside from an eyewitness sighting beyond the last known point on the expected route of travel) the best available tip? The reason I ask is because the Jo Co SAR seems to have treated it in a slow, methodical manner.
Thanks.”
Maybe you can’t answer the above specifically and I certainly understand, but in general have you ever seen these cell phone maps used before in a “MPERS”? Does LE teach any of this stuff as a matter of course or is it a very special, unusual kind of information?
Thanks again.
Title 18 of the United States Code (18 USC, section 2703, for anyone who’s interested in legal stuff) mandates that telecommunications and electronic communications normally protected by Federal privacy laws be provided to LE UPON ISSUANCE OF A COURT ORDER.
HOWEVER, 18 USC, section 2702 allows for the VOLUNTARY sharing of the same information with LE, under exigent circumstances, when it is believed an individual(s) are in danger of immediate death of serious physical injury…..
WHat happens in most MPERS investigations, wherein exigent circumstances are usually the case (but not always, such as in long-term investigations, where there is time to secure the proper court order) – is LE approaches the cell phone co., requesting voluntary compliance, under the voluntary provisions mentioned above. The section about voluntary compliance ALLOWS the cell ph. co, without legal liability, to provide info to LE, but it is not required. Additionally, the LE agency almost always has to promise and sign an affidavit for cell co., guaranteeing, in good faith, that LE will subsequently provide the same court order or subpoena that would have been required under the mandatory section of the law (in criminal cases).
1066-
Well Det. Mike it sounds like that legal process needs to be changed! Especially for what are often potentially emergency situations!
Do you have any ideas for changing it or improving the
system itself?
SO, where does that lead us re: this discussion. Still won’t be able to address this case specifically at this time, sorry….but, in this type of case… contact to hotel would be to request voluntary compliance. Offer was made to show up in person, letterhead request was provided by fax (w/ my business card photocopied onto face page), and offer was made to have hotel mgr. call me right back to verify LE thru the Portland 9-1-1 center, to be absolutely certain. It was made plain to me (which I will try to elaborate more on, if necessary, in future) that it didn’t matter whether I or 100 cops showed up in person, the hotel was choosing to abide strictly by their privacy policy, despite the exigency plea.
1061 – Best idea might be to call your CC co. and send written authorization to allow access to your emergency contact. Don’t know exactly how, but possibly add that person (whom you better trust explicitly) to your acct. but not provide them a CC, etc.
1062 – LE does not really have trouble accessing CC info, etc. when the company chooses to cooperate (which is usually, given that we call in on a 24/7 dedicated LE # and they have ways to verify who we are and where we are calling from. I use each of cell co. info, CC info, and much other technical data (banks, etc.) all the time with little problem, just very very time consuming, to conduct all verifications, etc., which we’re used to and expect.
[Sorry I get behind because I have dial-up]
1071- As a manager of a resort I know I would think twice about giving out a customers CC info. Course we currently don’t have a “policy” on it but I would take the info of the police or whom ever showed up and contact or pass it to the owner. My fear is all the ID theft these days….
1071 – Thank you, Det Mike, for clearing that up. It sounds like you did absolutely everything that could be done, and as long as the law remains that it’s voluntary, then it’s, well… voluntary. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain. I really didn’t understand the laws involved.
Detective.
Thank you so much for all this information.
How frustrating. I’m so very surprised by the hotel’s policy, or rather rigid enforcement of it. Is this common for them to be so inflexible?
I was just thinking this….might be most convienient to open a joint account with a trusted person, who wont be travelling with you…or spending your money!
Bamadad – RE: 1067 and your previous 369 – sorry, missed it originally…
Again, can’t comment RE: Fuqua, etc., other than to say (and the report Maggie is waiting for will go into much greater detail) I had a long conversation with Oregonian after related story was published, disagreeing with the characterization, since I was the one who provided them the info. Sorry can’t elaborate more now.
As far as these type of maps being used before, this was a first for me, and I use cell phone tracking all the time. Normally, we don’t need, or have access to, something so highly technical. I’m still looking forward to talking with Edge Wireless at a later date, if they’re willing, to learn more about how and why they have that available. Editorial comment: Edge has been extremely cooperative at all times, whenever I have contacted them.
Det Mike– When a person is officially listed as a “missing person”, though not a crime, does that person then fall wthin a certain legal criteria. If not so, perhaps it should be mad so. IF so, would it be plausible that a future law could be drafted that would essentially state: “If you are “missing” and other people’s lives are going to be risked trying to save yours–you just waived certain rights to your privacy i.e. recent CC and Cell info.?
Det Mike – I probably just slow today so sorry if you already covered this:
So, assume my trusted family member were to report me missing and could give you my cell number, credit card number, and itinerary. You would still have be relying on the voluntary cooperation of the carriers (cell, cc) however you would not have to spend time searching for the CC # being used on the trip or which cell? Is that correct – it would save a step and possibly a lot of time – though still require time consuming work with the companies?
THANKS
Thank you Det. Mike! That is very helpful, and that explains it all a lot better.
1070 – We actually have LE/legislative representatives (one of our police officers is a state representative here in OR) who actively work with legislators and Salem govt. full-time to affect positive change in laws that are related to what we do.
As for me, personally, most of what we get from private companies (bank, cell, etc.) are had through professional courtesy, one LE status is proven, and a true community caretaking function is explained. Just FYI for any ACLU people maybe lurking – we make it plain (and provide it in writing) that any information received during a community caretaking request is used SOLELY to help or protect someone. Nothing else (like it we accidentally stumbled upon potential evidence of a crime in their records) would ever be able to be legally used against anyone, without the proper court orders first being in place (difference scenario altogether, related to criminal investigations into bank, cell records, etc., which I also do).
1076 – Mapper, I agree. Given what Det Mike has now explained about the ability for sources to know that it’s a legitimate request, it does surprise me that information was not provided. I could understand if there was concern about ID theft, etc., but with this kind of pretty involved and “certain” verification, it sounds like those concerns are already fairly well addressed – so I’d volunteer it if it was my call.
1080 – Angela, good summary of how I think I understand it now, too…
1082 – Nice disclaimer, Det Mike 😉
1083. me too….reminds me of when I couldn’t get my luggage out of a hostel in scotland because I didn’t have my id, cause it was in my luggage…even though they had seen me before.
Det. Mike, how useful would having the cc information earlier (say the hotel had give it when requested)? From what I have read the CC were lasted use to buy gas and dennys (the gas before dennys). Was the search not already focusing in on an area south of dennys? Or was this before the search had even begun? Was there any attemp to retrieve the cc info from TuTuton llodge? seeing that they had the info and LE new of that on Dec 1?
from GR
“The family called the lodge coming from the Seattle area. Said they were about 3 hours away, left their credit card info and were never heard from.”
1080…my understanding is you also want to call or write(rather) the cc company and have that family member as an emergency contact too, and allow them access to your account…
why does this all sound so difficult, seems like something we should know!?!? 🙂
1080/Angela – Yes and no – We commonly rely on voluntary compliance under exigent circumstances, when a subpoena or court order are not available, or the immediacy of the situation does not warrant the proper time to legally secure such an order (a search warrant can take upwards of 6-8 hours or more, during non-business hours, depending on circumstances, not like on tv, not that you or anyone else suggested it was).
We routinely use the power of subpoena, but we have to 1) have subpoena issued by DA, 2) wait for results (which can take upwards of 1 week to as much as 4 months (!) from originating company, 3) go to Grand Jury to request opening and use of records, as appropriate, and 4) finally begin investigation with requested records (it is unlawful to use them before formally being approved by formal Grand Jury process).
Yes, having all #s available from complainant or reporting party definitely speeds things up (and we’re all about path of least resistance, while maintaining perseverence), but sometimes we still hit legal roadblocks.
As for my past experiences, have never had a hotel or similar business refuse my exigency request in many years. BUT, that being said, and not to defend hotel, but I again just want to point out (and out of respect for RRR) that they violated no law by choosing what they did. I can feel comfortable stating I do not believe there was any question as to the authenticy of the LE request, but can’t go into that further now.
gross typos sorry. 🙂
Det. Mike – Thank you so much! What an education!
and Joe – thanks again for providing this forum – I really have learned so much (and hope I never have to use most of it).
By the way RRR – I started the fire in my driveway this afternoon. Fortunately no crown victorias in the vincinity though the neighbors must really think I’m nuts (if they didn’t already). Fresh supplies have been checked and added to in my emergency section of the trunk!
THANKS!!
Thanks for all the insight on the MPERS process Mike it is helpful understanding what it takes to get anything done!
1090- so what did you use??? The 9 volt and steel wool??
Detective Mike
Never? Wow. Its so sad, it seems like a lot of things that never happened, happened to the Kim’s. I had wondered if it was an inexperienced person at the hotel you had to deal with, (and I dont expect any kind of confirmation of that as they must realize their mistake now) but it sounds like they were very determined to stick to policy, at the managment level. Must have been very frustrating.
Yes, adding my thanks to Det Mike for such an education – I had no idea how this all worked – and for Joe, again, for such a great place!
1086 Tara – can’t elaborate on that now, but can say that the intention for asking for CC info, specifically, was merely to narrow down which CC family might have been using, to track usage for most likely route to Gold Beach (i.e. gas stations, food, etc.).
And I usually will never comment re: another agency’s activities related to a case, but this has been plainly covered publicly, as well as in my public report – Haven’t seen much discussion of it really, but San Fran PD had been working on CC and cell info since the report was *first made* – my efforts were supporting theirs, as the agency of record. Fact is, it just isn’t always easy to receive immed. info from CC or cell companies, for various reasons.
Example: One major cell co. has technical abiililty to provide us with “realtime” cell data (incl. in/out call history, cell tower pinging, etc.) upon exigency request, while another, despite wanting to help, usually does not have the same info immediately available (by technical limitations). One major cell co. doesn’t even have the immed. availability to see in/out call history until the current billing period is completed (which is no better than looking at the missing person’s last cell phone bill from home). I won’t name companies, so please don’t ask.
1052 – I’m sorry Det. Mike. I may not have made myself totally clear in my post. I did in fact contact the three major credit card companies back in early Dec. and requested access to our (mine, and my husband’s) accounts be given to a family member (a trusted brother who rarely travels with us). I had to fill out paperwork allowing that access, but all three companies approved it. Tomorrow, I’ll contact our cell phone provider and request the same from them. Then, at least one person will have immediate access to those records. Again, I understand that not everyone may be comfortable with this tact. It is for each of us to decide what we take or leave from the ideas given here.
RRR (1092) oops forgot the details – yes the steel wool and 9-volt battery – then added some lint to get it going a bit! Was easy enough for this desk jockey non boyscout!
1095 – Wow, I know you won’t name companies, but I will be calling mine today to see which bunch they fall into… This is another area where I think it would be great to see some standardization. All of this technology is such a great thing and has much potential for helping in cases like this.
1097-Very Nice!!!
Maggie….standardization is a golden word in my field, and epsecially where this kind of data is concerned.
18 USC, section 2702 allows for the VOLUNTARY sharing of the same information with LE
This answered my question which was about whether the hotel could have legally shared that info. FYI I emailed the hotel about the motivation behind the refusal to share the CC records and got no reply. My hunch is that they have a firm policy and stuck to it to avoid what they thought could be a legal liability.
I’d bet that in 99% of these cases – where police are asking for info – it is reasonable to cooperate immediately – or at least after quickly calling the police to confirm it’s really an official police inquiry. I doubt a hotel would or even could suffer any liability for releasing info to the police during a missing persons investigation.
Adirondack RE: Plattsburgh AFB. Nope, my dad taught at the University but I remember the “open base” days fondly where you could tour the aircraft.
1085- Mapper, reminds me of a time when a bouncer/door person at a club thought my photo ID was fake because it
said I was 32. I was 32! He kept looking at me, smiling
knowingly and shaking his head like “No way.” People said I looked like I could have been as young as 15. Luckily it’s never caused any serious problems!
suzyq- can you email me rogueriverrat78@excite.com
1102. that is funny! I also got refused before, while using a passport instead of a drivers license. its much harder to get a passport!
1104- I know! It feels really crazy when someone questions
if you really are who you really are! Especially when you have “proof”!
Anyone ever look around on you tube???
Maggie 1098- Don’t rely on the response you receive too much as, unfortunately, most if not all of the 800# customer service reps you will get have absolutely no idea about the technical end of searching records (although I suspect some might, but are not permitted to ever talk about it). We get the info through dedicated LE contact #s for each company, or corporate security for banks, etc.
All I can say about that is find a cop you know and trust who might share his/her personal experiences about cell phone record availability with you quietly. I wish I could say more, I truly do, because I feel it’s extremely important safety information, but I’m confident everyone undertstands why I cannot.
1107 – I understand completely why you cannot say. I do have a friend who is very good friends with several at Hillsboro PD, so I might see what I can find out. I do wish that this was more standardized…
1101 Joe – Just to be clear (since I’m not sure I was), 18 USC refers to electronic communications and telecommunications data. I was using it as an example of how LE requests voluntary compliance in providing info. As for the hotel, I also used it as an example of how companies who are known for the tightest security, such as banks and cell cos., still voluntarily are legally permitted to provide the requested info to LE in emergency situations.
Sorry for any confusion, not intended.
This is the first I have seen or heard of this
1108 Maggie – As do I. Imagine how difficult it is to attempt to train someone coming into the MPERS Unit, to have to explain that 10 difference companies do things 15 different ways sometimes.
Maggie; (1098)
My cell company has an online immediate listing. If I make a call, I can sign on to my account and immediately see the number I just called. Or any calls I’ve received. Perhaps that would be a way for you to check yours.
Of course this would be no guarantee about how well they volunteer or share info – it would just give you an idea of the capability of your own cell company.
1112 – Thanks, Angela. I’ll have to double-check, but I think I am able to see the info in my account online almost immediately, so maybe that is a good sign. Like you said, at least it might give an idea of capability, even if it doesn’t address willingness. I could at least give my cell account info to a family member, as others have suggested, so that they could access the information.
Angela,
I think your right, as I have to wait a couple of hours to see any of mine.
OK folks, we are way past 1000 comments but I’m going to let this ride tonight unless problems crop up. This is part laziness and part experiment to see if it’s best to break up the comments into chunks of about 1000 as I have been or let them go to 2000 or so per page.
For the new people: Based on some feedback and the fact I don’t like forum navigation and don’t want people to have to register to comment I have decided not to use forum software for this discussion (this is an unusual way to use blog comments, but it seems to be working pretty well).
EVERYBODY is welcome to post comments as long as they are civil. I’m somewhat concerned based on a lot of input and last night’s comments that there are people out there who do not want to comment because they think they’ll get “shouted down” for their ideas, and worse that there seemed to be some suggestion that keeping some ideas out of the blog is a good idea. All ideas and facts are welcome here. No insults or abuse is welcome here.
I hope those folks take a shot anyway because this is a really fascinating story of family, hope, survival, and tragic death and *nobody* knows the whole truth here.
Thanks to everybody for keeping this so lively and interesting!
Another idea for those of you who might choose to consider authorizing someone access to your CC or cell accts. – If you have immediate online access, as Angela does, consider providing your login/password info to the same trusted person. Or at least make it available hidden within your home, where the trusted person reporting you missing might be able to make it available to LE, if you were ever reported missing.
FYI, if anyone doesn’t already know it, under most cities’ community caretaking laws (at least in Portland, for example), LE can forcefully enter a residence, if necessary (although we always prefer to have someone with a key, of course), to search to check your welfare. Either for you, in a medical emergency, for instance, or for records which might assist in locating you asap and without undue delay.
Every time I try the link now to Spencer Kim’s letter my
computer freezes, so I don’t remember exactly what he was
asking for in terms of release of this the CC/Cell phone info, but I wonder if there could be a ‘Kim Act’ that could require all credit card and cell phone contracts to include emergency contacts, and have this information always be available to verifiable LE agencies.
Det. Mike if you’re still here do you think this would be legally possible or likely to pass?
1113- sorry, Maggie – I type slowly and hadn’t read your idea, which I basically then re-stated. Yours was a good one.
RE: Sharing phone and credit card info. If your cell provider has real time info in your online account could you just provide that login info to your friend or relative rather than the “release” info? They could then login and find some things out, but I suppose in some cases they would not be able to find out as much as with a release.
1115 – I’m glad that you are not going forum.
1118/1119 – Don’t we all just think of the same clever things at once 😉
Ha – I did same cross posting re: sharing online info. I had not read Maggie and Det. Mike yet.
1117 – Wish that were possible, but I just don’t see it happening in this lifetime. But I would applaud it, and actively support any related legislation, that’s for sure.
1119 – Joe, you’re correct – might help with in/out call history, but would do nothing for cell site info, repeater tower info, voicemail info, etc. Also, raw data provides us much greater detail than consumer version. That being said, something is always better than nothing in emergency situations, and it could make a huge difference. Especially in non-emergency situations, where we’re doing more in-depth investigation into a MPERS case.
Interesting, I’m not sure what to make of my cell phone. It does say that my last call was about 30 minutes ago (correct), but doesn’t actually list the details. So I’m back to a maybe on the technological capability. The banking seems easier, depending on where the charge was made – gas stations usually take several days to post, sadly, because that would be a good one to know if more immediate.
And not to go off-topic, but Maggie’s point regarding transaction- vs. post-date transactions for CCs came into play in this case, as well (mostly for verification purposes only, not for SAR-related things) so I’m not going to go into more detail about it now, and it is addressed in the forthcoming report she’s waiting for.
1124 – And I’m waiting so very patiently for that report 🙂
Thank you Det. Mike and posters for all the valuable questions and answers. If I hadn’t discovered Joe’s site I would really be out in the cold about this information. Like RRR, I am very last minute sometimes and having this backup (set up with CC’s and cell)would speed up the process for those of us who don’t always plan ahead. I know I could be lost because I like to explore off the beaten path.
Also, I had my CC’s stolen a couple years back and tracing the transactions of the cards helped quite a bit. Interesting to look on line on your cc web site and see where those people are spending your money. Nice dinner out and gas for all their friends. Of course, I wasn’t held responsible for the deb
Orygungirl -My pleasure to be a part of the information sharing, as I’ve learned things here, as well, and appreciate the varying points of view and ideas.
Everyone have a good evening. And thanks for showing interest in what often goes on behind the scenes. As Joe pointed out awhile back, it’s things such as this blog and the ability to share information two ways that makes this a valuable resource. And for me, personally, the more we can do to dispel myths related to LE or more specifically MPERS-related investigations, the more informed the public-at-large will be. You never know when the information you have been graciously open to and willing to have shared will benefit you or someone close to you. I hope you never need to find out, but I’m confident that everyone here, myself included, has some new ideas for “tools” to put in their toolbox, if and when the need should ever arise.
Thanks Detective Mike! Your view on this is very impressive and open-minded, and I have learned something from you.
Thanks!
Thank you again, Det. Such great info and insight.
..perhaps “exersizes” could be conducted between LE and cell phone companies in the future. Run through and few practicea few “can you find me now” scenerios. Surely there will be lessons learned on both sides that can be applied the next time someones life is on the line.
Thanks Det. Mike for all the explanations. Have a good night!
Thanks DetMike for reply to my Q’s about cell phone map.
Wow that was alot of “technical” talk and I consider myself pretty tech savvy eeekkks over my head!
Thank you Det. Mike. I understand that you cant answer all questions. I do appreciate the answers and time you have given us. thank you.
(1095) The technical limitations Mike is referring to fall into a couple of major categories (and I am sure there are more).
1) The immense volume of data is just too prohibitive for their systems to process anything outside the day to day running of the network.
2) Their processing of switch data happens in a non real-time manner – typically on or around a billing cycle and it may be staggered throughout the month to handle the amount of volume. The systems were designed and built for producing an invoice not for real-time reporting. Until your bill is created they may not have the ability (system-wise) to look at the data.
For a major cellular carrier the billing system just for a region can cost 100’s of millions of dollars to implement. That is just to get it going and then it costs a lot to keep it running.
Real-time reporting of call details was never considered except for and only in support of the engineering function.
Hope that helps somewhat…I saw a lurker post from someone who seems to know a little about this and maybe they can shed some more light on the subject.
Good Evening Glenn…..I was begining to wonder if I missed the dinner bell or something 🙂
Been quiet enough that I’ve started working on the page where I hope to put the police report once I get it scanned… Where did everyone go?
(1123) The nature of the reporting whether it is banking, cell phone, cc transactions is a lot of times at the mercy of the provider where the transaction took place.
For a lot of CC transactions some companies batch their clearing transactions on some time based boundary – banks do the same thing. Some banks are better than others. Also the regulations allow for a period of “float” in most transactions. Make no mistake the overnight investment advantage of float dollars to financial institutions is really big they will not give us this revenue stream very easily.
Doesn’t seem fair that they get to make an extra dip off our money does it?
Over time the real-time transaction models will be more prevalent but it is still going to take some time.
Well I have been here just watching everyone talk to Mike and catching up on my YouTunbe and MetaCafe…..
(1137) Spent some time with family this weekend…one of my daughters returned from a 12 day trip. Nice to have her back and we have had some amazing weather here.
1139 – Very true, Glenn. It does seem pretty consistent though for me that almost any gas station takes several days, yet my favorite grocery stores are all instant, and Dutch Bros is always about 2-3 days 🙂 If all were posted in real-time it sure would make it easier for things like this where if you trusted person had your account log in, they could provide that information.
Anybody hear anything from Madeline?
1143. I think she said she’d be out all day.
(1142) Some of the grocery chains have agreements with the financial institutions and the transaction networks…yes those card swipe terminals at the checkout are more similar to a real ATM machine than the credit card processing stations at gas stations.
Grocery chains run on very low margins (1%-3%) unless of course your WholeFoods, and gas stations run on very different margins. The gas stations have no incentive to have real-time transactions – grocery stores do because they share in the fee structure of the cc transactions – especially debit card transactions – that is a bonanza for grocery chains.
My family repossesed me today. They had my wasting wreck, thrashed for overdoses of caffeine and decimated by lack of sleep, towed from the Joe Duck parking lot back into our living room. There I was restored by the frantic attentions of 2 little ones who never need caffeine as they are perpetually overdosed on energy whose endless reserves I can only wonder over.
I always like it when Mike visits, he has cleared up one of the initially disturbing elements of this story, as I suspect other revelations will ultimately leave us with a total story that is far less damming than it at first seemed.
RRR – did you get my link from earlier tdy ?
in my email??? Yes I did….
So I just had a very good converstaion with JoCo with some points she would like conveyed here….anyone up to hearing??
1149 – You KNOW we are all ears !!!
Always – You and JoCo are a wonderful source of inspiration, humor and information! 🙂
1149 – RRR, you know that none of us are ever interested in hearing stuff… Of course we want to know! 😉
will I need more coffee?? 🙂
Ok well……All this talk about a solution on here and some WONDERFUL ideas have come from this site….we have touched a little about how things can be implimented but not a WHOLE lot…..
(1142) I want to spread a word of caution about providing anyone your online account log in information. Personally I don’t think it is a good idea. People do not protect their computers well enough and viruses, etc can scoop your personal log in data faster than the blink of an eye.
One suggestion might be to secure a folder with your key information and put it in a safe deposit box and give one key to a relative. I know it is banker’s hours you have to deal but something like this is more prudent to balance risk and the need for your rescue. Another thing would be to provide instructions and access information to your computer if someone needs to get information that could help.
Family is great and I trust mine as much as the day is long however you always need to be careful with your financial data. As much as the information could help you it could also hurt you in the wrong hands.
and everyone has put ALOT of thought and time here at the the blog site and often talk about how they would like to help…However many have said they can’t for some reason or another…
they can’t meaning they can’t volunteer for SAR in their local comminuties and so forth…..
But you all are very accomplished Bloggers and internet savvy people…..We were talking about a way to incorporate that into a search….JoCo said it would be GREAT to have someone like you all at a search doing something of like this…such as you all have your own blog site and can build them ie maggie (just and example)
And if you all would commit the time and effort that you have done for this to a search then there is always a place for you…..Look at all the time WE all have spent on here talking about it…Can you imagine if that time was put into a search such as the Kims or something of the sort…..
That is a great idea, RRR. I think Glenn and Joe are working on something similar along those lines, if I understand correctly.
JoCo’s point was its time to get up off our asses and put some of this into play….contact your local SARs and get involved….We need computer geeks, bloggers, people to just sit and look at a screen of a computer sorting data, or even just recording radio records to the computer…There is a place for EVERYONE and there is NO excuse to say “I can’t do it”
Hi RRR
I think part of JoCO’s and Mine frusterations at times is that we have searches like the kims, with big media or with high profile and we get ALOT of back seat drivers and yet they have all these great ideas but in the end it is the same ten people who respond in SAR who have some new ideas but everyone who had the ideas has left and has some excuse to “not” help now…..
1162- Hi Mattman
And JoCo SAR says she can see the Dutch Bro’s coffee warehouse from her office door and during searches they deliver FREE coffee….if that is not a benifit I dunno what is!!!! Oh yeah saving lives!
1163- Or they do all the critisim and then when it comes time to preform the back out “Oh I can’t” kinda stuff….
1165 – I wonder if they could have a Dutch Bros out here like that, too… I’m not surprised they do that – good company.
So that is the jest of our conversation UNLESS she calls on my phone again and I drop it in my spagetti AGAIN….
Well the history of Dutch Bro’s is in Grants Pass….They are that good ole home town business!
1160/Maggie: am I understanding correctly that this will be somekind of virtual online SAR resource – an online brainstorming session if you will, pulling expertise from a broad base of folks with applicable talents, i.e. folks who KNOW cell; folks who KNOW maps; folks who KNOW a specific area well (i.e. Joe’s initial guess that they were on BC), etc ?
(1163) Well some of us are on it. I tend to plan out the technology I implement very well. RRR you are one of the few people that know the most about my background – you know I don’t mess around.
We are designing something significant that can be scaled anywhere on the net – to me that is key. Not something that can be used in just one place (however we will need to test it, etc in one or two places).
In addition we need some serious conversations with you guys and in context of the Kim search and until the investigation is complete everyone has their hands tied. Once the ban is lifted you can expect myself, Joe and other to be the onsite with you guys working to figure this out.
I am looking forward to it.
1170- that idea is great too however we are thinking actually GETTING out of your houses and away from YOUR computer and becoming volunteers with your local SAR…..again maybe being connected to the “virtual” sar but incorporating it with your local sar….
1170 – Yep, I spoke too soon in RRR’s description, so I think it’s a different thing. Glenn/Joe would have to answer what they are up to.
1169 – Yes, and even out this far, Dutch Bros still has that home town business feel. Every grand opening is free coffee!!!
1171- Yes I understand that because right now its like playing with a deck of cards thats not full the game just doesn’t fan out right!
1171/Glenn…but, but, that’s impossible!!…we have it on good authority that we are ineffectual and incompetent and none of our ideas will ever amount to a hill of beans….I mean, we must have heard that 400 times at least! 😆
(1175) Yes when I hear that then I know I am on the right trail. I love it when I am told it can’t happen.
My two biggest ventures were exactly that…I was told they would never happen. In any event we will see where this takes us and I sure hope it can make a difference in the end.
(1174) Tell Phil to let the dogs out! 🙂
Ok well didn’t mean to shut down the converstaion
1176- I don’t think you all have the right picture of Phil…He is not the one with the gag order on us all…I am not sure the relation of suzyq to Phil just yet….I can firmly say Phil is MORE then ready to let the BIG dogs off the porch and let them run!!!
RRR – I wasn’t sure if you were finished – quite the series of postings there 🙂
Sorry…its the NON ENGLISH MAJOR in me (sorry I couldn’t resist that one)
(1177) Well it has unfortunately. Without the specific context of the details of the Kim search it makes it near impossible to review and design data models, process models, etc around a problem unless you really understand it. We are willing to invest our time and resources in the process to produce something but we need to have access to the information that ultimately will lead our decisions down paths that create a useful system.
Just like an automobile manufacturer. They know they want to improve automobile safety but they need the data from crashes to figure it out.
Plus with all the activity around this we want to capture all the ideas.
Not sure how 1179 posted while I was still typing – must be FRED!!
Are you saying if we haven’t already volunteered with Emergency Services or our local SAR to get up and get it done?
(1178) I have no idea…I just saw his name in a post so I thought I would keep mentioning it…I am looking forward to meeting all of your in person.
1181- But you can still contact your local sar and join without knowing the specifics about the kim search…Consider it a membership drive for all counties of SAR….get the ball rolling for membership then work out the details get your dang foots in the door (ok feet)
1172/RRR – you have mail.
RRR – 1184 – slow but catching up.
YES of course – I think several of us already volunteer in some capacity or another.
(1184) I did my part there in multiple organizations for over 8 years (as an adult) it was all I had. As a non-adult I was in Sea Scouts, Fire Explorer, Boy Scouts and CAP and those places is where I got my bug.
At my point in life I am in a different position – quite frankly I don’t have the time to keep myself at a level of fitness that I wouldn’t think I would jeopardize the mission. When I do something it is all the way.
Now I can do something with technology that can help and hopefully help A LOT more than just myself volunteering.
1186- I hope so because I think you all are WONDERFUL people and have SOOOO much to offer that it is a waste if you don’t 🙂
(1188) BTW during hurricanes I am very active here with local resources but mostly on the technology side.
1187- But fitness is NOT about EVERY position…We have people who sit in front of a radio and answer it….people sit at a computer and record converstaions…people make maps…..people fill out paperwork…I am not saying you all need to go out and pound ground work in the command post and push papers, brainstorm on planning…..SAR is a guessing game, we get a clue we guess a bit better with more GREAT minds to pole on our guessing games the less guessing and better outcomes!!
1189- Glenn that is great it is what I am talking about you are involved….My father does the same thing he was in New Orleans for three weeks and now he “retired” but volunteers for Red Cross in his own way “Telling them how to run things and play politica games” hes not in shape for that!! sshhh dont’ tell him I said that
1188 – RRR, here’s my question. I would love to volunteer. Is there room for people that are not available 24/7? I have to work, have commitments (hard to tell as much as I’m here, but it’s true), so that’s what I’ve wondered about. I would not want to volunteer only to say “oh, you went missing during the day – sorry, can’t make it.” How does that work?
1192 / RRR – ditto for me. I have 2 young kids and a wife who works a lot, but there are also plenty of times when I AM available…but people are not going to go lost around my schedule.
(1190) That is exactly the point of the internet technology solution. To leverage thousands if not tens of thousands of great minds to analyze data, hunt down leads, etc. RRR I think you would be impressed with the background work that has gone on here by several people and that information isn’t even posted.
People like Tara are natural detectives – just amazing.
That is why this can be so positive we can tap into the Eric’s of the world who can provide great insight to cellular networks, other SAR experts who have had a similiar experience and can finally relay their input, it goes on and on. That level of integration can only happen with a well thought out platform that understands how to effectively manage information, maps, data, peoples idea, real data from the field, etc.
I really think when JoCoSAR, yourself and others see what we want to do I think you will be…wow right on! Let’s rock. It is killing me sitting here waiting for this investigation to be finished.
BTW for anyone out there saying…oh the idea is to big, etc…we are designing it to optimize existing SAR procedures with external help and it can be implemented and deployed incrementally so we can get immediate benefit and grow the platform through experience.
1192- ABSOLUTLY!!!! Heck you can ask my group…summer months I am NONE exsistant!!! (Stop agreeing JoCo I know your readgin!) They key is keeping your training up, we have people on our roster that are in the same position…..Yeah some days you may sacrific your life in that you were out in the middle of the night looking for someone who wondering away from a nursing home BUT it was at a time when you weren’t working. SAR is NOT and 8-5 and people dont get lost at convient times BUT you might not be able to do 8-5 but could do a 11pm-2 search (NOT THAT THEY ARE PLANNED) where somedays I may be able to do the 8-5 and not the 11-2….Make sense??? As for people who have Kids OF COURSE WE UNDERSTAND….if you can’t get a sitter ITS TOTATALLY OK!!! If a group has ENOUGH people on a roster with “differen’t” schedules and the pool is big enough there will always be a time for you to search!!
Glenn – I knew you and the team would come up with something big and incredible!!
Can’t wait to see it unveiled and test launched!!
1195 – So, for example, something comes up, I’m called to help, but it’s a weeknight, so I figure I can help from 7PM until 2AM (need some beauty sleep so I can go to work), then somehow I can be sort of fit into the schedule somewhere during those times?
Glenn please don’t take this as I am discounting what work you all are doing on the side becuase I am NOT doing that at all…We (JoCo and I) just want to see people join and not sit back and be afraid of things like…work schedules…kids…..SAR can be flexiable…
You would be amazed also HOW flexiable some employers are when you tell them what you do….I have had employers you have graciously giving me time to do a search, especially high profile things…..examples kids, elderly…..You just have to commmunicate with them….Most are in awww
ANY level of expertise can be helpful. We even have massage therapists that volunteer to come in and help keep the others on their feet – which is a totally different level of training than ground search!
1197- Absolutly! A little time is better then none….Some SAR stuff could be just sitting at a gate making sure NO one enters it because it is a crime scene….
I will admit sometimes when you are on a search….YOU Think you need beatuy sleep BUT once you are there and into it…..you forget about beauty sleep!! I know I ma young and dumb but I have done all nighters and worked and then back at the end of work and out for another night…..Just because my passion is so high on it all…..
But overall YES we will take what we can get!
1199 – Wow, Dutch Bros and a massage. I’m in 😉
1199- I WANT THAT ON OUR SEARCHES!!!!! WOW!!!!
(1198) Yes I fully understand…just wanted to make sure you knew since I have been quiet it is not a reflection of what is being done in the background.
BTW I would be more than happy to sign a confidentiality agreement if that would speed things up for us but then of course I would be marbled mouthed like you guys!
I’m in Portland – any suggestions on who to contact?
1203 we could you know we would…..sides we only take bribes 🙂
(1200) In the technology world…all nighers are a regular occurance and there have been many times where I literally have sat and wrote software for 40 hours straight. Want to talk about strange pains in your body and then not being able to fall asleep for 6-8 hours after that…very strange place indeed. But you get used to it.
1204- What county in the PD area??
1202 – OK, that isn’t on all incidents – but there is a group of therapists that likes to help out when there schedules allow.
1204- Just contact your local Sheriff, they would direct you to the right person. Some counties have paid patrol deputies who run SAR others have Coordinators….But ALL Sheriff’s can point you in the right direction..
1208- I was TOTALY excited about the massages!! Maggie hit it on the head a massage and Dutch Bros DANG!!!! Could you even imagine a Command post…..it would be like the greek gods or something!!!
1210 Goodness knows you all deserve to be treated like Greek Gods! Maybe I should dispatch the massage crew over to you to help get you all through the marbled duck tape phase of this incident! 😆
(1210) Does that include text massages too? 😛
1212 – Right along with the virtual kamikazee’s 🙂
1211- I know TWO people would be lined up in a FLASH for that!!!
1212- ha ha ha ha
MattMan- Feel free to pipe in here
1206 – See, that was exactly my concern. If I didn’t have to worry about my job, pulling all nighters would be no problem. It’s not just physically being there – I need to be alert to some degree if I expect them to keep paying me. 😉
I’m glad scheduling can be flexible!
I did notice when I was looking around at the different SAR volunteer websites and sheriff’s websites that alot of them suck. Sorry. they do. they could probably use people to make the sites better and more user friendly so that WHEN folks do want to volunteer they can. So if that is your cup of tea, you might try volunteering in that capacity.
1216= I am sure that NO matter what SAR you help out they would be very glad for ANY help you can give them……YOu know its like going to watch a play….the actors can go out and preform and get all the applause…But you know it wouldn’t have happened without those folks BEHIND the stage putting in time when they can creating props and costumes…..There is ALWAYS behind the scene work to be done in the down times
1217- I can tell ya I would judge a book by the cover…AKA a group by the website…..I am all about the cool factor!!! Go SPICE it up!
Hhmmm Ok so I didn’t mean you needed to go out RIGHT now and apply or contact your SAR we can talk more 🙂
RRR – 1220 You ALWAYS crack me up! Laughter really is the best and I love you for it!! 😛
I was signing off but I just received an email from Madeline…they got good news today regarding her husband…I am sure when she has time she will update everyone but I thought for all those concerned to pass along the good news.
Now I am off to apply for SAR…ah..er…I mean to go to sleep!
1221- Well if you can’t see the lighter side of things life must suck!!!
1222- Good Nite Glenn…Keep up the work! 🙂
1223 – I agree completely! Live . . Love. . . Laugh
the only way to go!
Glenn – thanks for the update on Madeline and her husband
This might be old news here but there were some things in here that I didn’t know, such as the name of the hotel that refused to give information (last I heard that wasn’t being released, although I assumed it wouldn’t be that hard to figure it out) and an email effort by James’s father:
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/12/22/d2.or.missingfamilyhotel.1222.p1.php?section=nation_world
I shall step down off my soap box now of getting involved with SAR and join the crowd…..Any marshmellows to roast over that fire you buildt today Angela???1
RRR you would have loved it!
First the neighbors started looking out the window. Then other neighbors ‘just happened’ to need to walk around the block. They really do think I’m nuts. It would have been great if I would have had enough lint to roast marshmallows – that really would have got them wondering!!
1226 – yes, thank you very much, that is welcome news.
1220 – RRR / fine, right, go and get us all riled up and then pull the rug out… 🙂
1229- Nice! I have roasted marshmellows over a candle once….
1231 Sounds romantic!!
1230- Oh I am still here….Just letting others use my box!! I didn’t say I was leaving!@@
I have been watching the action for some days now. Responding to RRR78 and items 1161, 1163 and 1187, those comments are right on. Not everyone is asked to jump from a chopper. Oh, don’t forget the DB.
1230- Did I mention that I don’t have kids but use to work with them and the best thing was gettting them all riled up and then giveing them back!!! hahahahaha
1234- Well welcome calm guy..
Welcome Calm Guy! Darn and I was just ready to go find a parachute!
1234- Wouldn’t that be an advertisment for SAR and Dutch Bros SAR members repelling from a BlackHawk with Dutch Bro’s in tow…..I can just see it now! Sign me up!
1238 – Too Late – You are already committed!
Committed to the funny farm maybe!
With all of the computer skills and energy I see represented in the days of this blog, there is enough people to staff each operational period. There would be no shortage of radio people and planners. Map tracking would be timely. RRR78 will need to start on the paper work. I know you will not forget the DB.
Ok, I’m really stuck on the project I’ve been working on. I think I’ve gone down the spaghetti roads and I’m not sure if I can back up 🙂 Time to get away from the computer cause somewhere I missed all the warning signs!!
Hopefully a good nights sleep will re-boot the brain.
You call can expect to receive your electronic application for JoCo SAR in your email within 7-10 days….
Well watch out for falling rocks also Angela……G-nite
Calm Guy – love the idea of the Dutch Brothers! Can’t wait to see the photos . . .
Ok RRR, you really do need some computer volunteers if it takes 7 – 10 days for the email to arrive 🙂
1245- Well I have to return cell phone calls first before I can get to email 🙂
Hi, Everyone. Thanks to you all for your kind words and thoughts. My husband came through his heart problem very well, and the angiogram showed nothing that had to be stented or bypassed. They are using meds to stabilize the situation and sent him home late today. He’s feeling SO much better than yesterday, and the excellent care he had surely contributed to his getting through this, along with all those good thoughts!
Thanks again, you folks are so very kind and considerate. Now, back to the Range Wars, I’m catching up with all the posts. Wow…
1247- I am glad to hear all is well with your husband…and is home resting nicely!
Must be bed time…. the troops have dwendled…Or are still recovering from last night…
Madeleine, that is great news, glad to hear things went so well, you were in our thoughts. In terms of what you missed, well, you know there is never a dull moment here at Joe Duck!!
Madeleine that’s really great to hear. Glad he’s doing well.
Re: The allegation that Spencer Kim hogged the airspace and was counterproductive: I wouldn’t presume to have read the pertinent data as thoroughly as Brenda has, but I did note something interesting.
Maybe I’ve missed important info, but I read aviation blogs from time to time and have done so recently. I’ve never flown helos, am not an expert on OR airspace, but used to fly (small) fixed wings and have some idea as to the issues.
I noted that the CAP was chomping at the bit to be asked to help with this search, and they have very specific protocols for being invited by the Sheriff’s Office in charge of an SAR operation. There seemed to be some hard feelings being expressed re: why they weren’t asked, but that’s another story.
Bottom line, I never came across any mention about Spencer Kim being a problem, nor did they doubt that they could have been used in conjunction with the FLIR flights except that they were not invited. Again, I could have missed something one of you caught.
Naturally, there is always concern during an emergency about coordination and type of craft used (they mentioned Archers with lots of bells and whistles), but they manage to coordinate with the AF and everyone else often on disaster or search operations.
If Mr. Kim was such a fly in the ointment, it’s strange that a group of pilots willing to go up at the same time as everyone else never once brought it up other than to say they thought there were privately hired helos hired and that they could have augmented both the gov’t airships and the privately hired ones.
The final call was the Sheriff’s, according to the conversation I read. Just another strand in this web of loose ends that are part of this case. I hope to finally get some answers soon about these issues.
I should put in a disclaimer as to my coherence when reading some of these other sites, as it’s usually in the dead of night when I tear myself away from this one!
I thought this local Sheriff familiar with the area and roadways was quick to pass judgement and apply labels to outsiders who get trapped in his area. I suppose the unlocked gate and map information was no concern of his. I consider his remark “…they are people who lack common sense” is inflammatory and professionally ill advised.
Josephine County Sheriff Dave Daniel defended the training, experience and performance of his search and rescue team, adding that ultimate responsibility must fall on the Kims, who passed four signs warning snow could block the road ahead.
reference: http://www.katu.com/news/4990826.html
“My heart goes out to the Kim family and the families of the men up on Mount Hood,” Daniel said. “But the truth of the matter is in the past eight years I’ve been sheriff, we’ve done 34 search and rescue operations in wintertime up there on Bear Camp Road. In the majority of these cases, they are people that lack common sense. They are driving into snow in passenger vehicles on what is at best a two-lane road and sometimes a one-lane road.”
R3, Paul, Joe and others who wrote, thanks so much!
1252/Madeleine – interesting to hear an alternative viewpoint, we certainly got an earful on the other position, and then some.
Joe, I hope that is not stepping over the line in voicing that. I am sensitive to shouting people down, I think it is important NOT to do that. At the same time, when someones viewpoint is monopolozing all the space, and they keep hitting the topic over and over and over AND over, I don’t feel it is out of line to as them to let it rest a bit.
1252 – Madeleine, thank you for adding your perspective on this. Glad to hear that your husband is home getting some TLC from you.
1253 – Hi there, Kati’s Dad. Many of us who have seen that quote also were a bit surprised and felt the same way. After that many people have had trouble in the same place, there’s clearly some problem (things like signs, maps seem to be our best ideas as to part of what’s wrong) that can’t be considered just “lack of common sense” by so many people. Have not seen you around as much, but hoping that you are doing well.
Kati’s Dad, this statement has stuck with me from Day One when it was uttered (or at least reported). Seems like a rather short-sighted and mean-spirited thing to say, if meant as it sounded. Of course I agree with his support of the SAR efforts. His comment about the 34 searches is just amazing, I’m waiting for the lightbulb to go off -“Houston, we have a problem…”
For those who blame the Kims over and over, like an endless loop: If you had an intersection in your town, for example, where a significant number of people or pedestrians were hurt or killed, how would you respond?
Presuming that some of the motorists or peds may have made mistakes along with the inherent problems at the intersection, would you simply get together and point fingers at the mistakes the victims *might* have made? Or would you want to get to the bottom of WHY THIS PARTICULAR intersection keeps piling up stats so it can be resolved?
Perhaps not the best analogy, but all this wringing of hands about what James and Kati knew and when did they know it is not going to accomplish the most good in solving this problem.
Sorry Kati’s Dad, didn’t mean run off with your point, and thanks again for being here.
1257- So I am NOT blaming the kims as to going up there and I am NOT defending Daniels and is point just clarifing….I believe that I have done this before on this one….the 34 calls we get up there are not all the same thing…They are calls for service….mostly calls of “Hey I am stuck send a tow truck”….Each call is it’s own call like a snowflake they are NEVER two that are the same….
So what really should have been said was that we get 34 calls for service up there….Not 34 rescues…..not 34 trapped people…..Just calls for services
I’m doing okay in general. Getting ready to resume my usual work schedule tomorrow.
I expect adversarial and offensive comments from folks like PAC, but I have higher expectations of conduct from trained law enforcement professionals. Perhaps the Sheriff would like to send his assessment of the “lack of common sense” problem to kick off Senator Feinstein’s recommended investigation.
R3, my post was certainly not directed at you! The Sheriff was quoted as mentioning 34 SARs, I believe, and of course they would be different in nature. It seems, though, that that area certainly has its share of lost/stranded people compared to other locations, unless I’ve read wrong.
I just didn’t care for the “lack of common sense” comment, tempting though it might be in some situations to apply it (example, a carload of college kids go up there to drink beer, get stuck while playing hot dog hill climber with no warm clothing, no water, etc. Most would agree they could apply for the Darwin Award in that type of case.
It was an unfortunate choice of words, at best, to just lump everyone together.
1260- Oh I know I was just clarifying the numers……Counting the mission numbers is hard you kind need to lump them together because EACH one is its own mission you have to lump them together to count them someway…..
1259 – Glad you are hanging in there, Kati’s Dad. Sometimes getting back in to a regular schedule helps – not saying it makes anything all better, but it has its own comfort of sorts sometimes for me. I’m continuing to keep you all in my thoughts.
Related Topics
From answers.com
The definition:
common sense
n.
Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.
[Translation of Latin sēnsus commūnis, common feelings of humanity.]
Common sense for a “local” or person experienced with the geography and weather where the family found themselves is different than common sense in the city or a foreign country.
Poor choice of words, yes, but this definition explains to me that common sense is not universal, but defined by where you happen to be using it culturally, geographically, etc. This is why we disagree on what it means [to us].
Madeleine, I don’t know you well, but please accept my best wishes for you husband’s good health.
Kati’s Dad, is your daughter planning to file a lawsuit?
Katies Dad- welcome back, there has been some discussion about how difficult and challenging the two nights Kati had after James left the car must have been. I cannot begin to imagine her fears and sense of aloneness…all I have to say is you have one incredibly strong daughter and I admire her bravery and fortitude greatly.
Good Night all and hapy late night posting!!!
1253 – Orygungirl, thanks so much, how nice of you to say that.
Re: The common sense comment: I believe the SAR stats show that the vast number of SARs involved Oregonians, which is logical. Given that they’re from the state, I suppose one would expect them to know better. In my state, though, the I’d be no more especially knowledgeable of how to travel a particular mountain pass in most other parts of the state than anyone else driving through.
I think Daniels is speaking only from his local perspective. To him it would be a lack of common sense to ignore those signs, use a car when a truck is needed, etc… This blog has served, however, to point out things like: maps showing the road as a main road to the coast (scenic too), poor signs, confusing intersections, etc… that would confuse even many he would consider to have common sense. So, I agree, his comment was in poor taste (lacking in good taste).
(1268) Considering everything I have read about Daniels this comments does not seem out of place for him. I don’t see anyone out here sticking up for him like Sara R. or Brian Anderson.
I have asked several questions about him over the last several thousand posts but continue to get no answers and like Kati’s dad that quote has always bothered me.
1264 No lawsuit.
1265 Yes, I am very impressed with Kati’s strength and strong sense of ethics.
It should be noted that Penelope has been a wonderful little support person for all of us in the family.
*** ATTENTION: NEW OREGONLIVE ARTICLE TODAY *** Can’t get link right now, more to follow.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/116823753415560.xml&coll=7
(1273) So the $64k question…
Why did JoCo think that the Kims were not in their county?
How was that assessment made and was is double-checked?
The article points it directly back to Sara R. and Brian Anderson and I sure they are just chomping at the bit to respond to this.
I think it is important to understand how they arrived at their assessment. Bad input can lead to bad conclusions.
I also wonder how the check and balance policies played in all of this.
God morning..
1275- Good I mean
1273/1275 Good Morning RRR…not quite enough Dutch Bros at post 1275? 🙂 On the article, one thing seems indisputable, and I have not seen any of our sources argue this yet, lack of a centralized authority SEEMS to have to have badly hindered this search effort, (as New Mex. & AK have), especially early on.
1277- I am not sure my eyes were even opened yet when I typed that….
(1277) Yes Paul the NM model keeps playing out in my mind here.
1273/1274: RRR, perhaps you cannot comment, but I read into the article that Sara R concluded they were not in Jos. Cnty. because they HAD cleared BC from end to end, not an unreasonable assumption IF you thought BLM road 38-8-36 was locked. Did Sara R know it was unlocked? Also, there was a miscommunication that 34-8-36,where they were ultimately found, was cleared. How did that miscommunication happen? It seems a critical mistake/miscommunication.
My question is: we KNOW Bear Camp has been a source of repeated trouble before. How often has 34-8-36 been a problem and, if often, why was it not more carefully considered? We know the signs are hopelessly inadequate at the fork, that is clear from the photos.
1274- Sounds like Sara R may have believed that lead that
identified them as having driven down out of the mountains?
1280- I can’t answer that….
1281/Lisa – good point, or she thought that BLM gate was locked, or – and they focus on this in the article, that the miscommunication on the cell ping made it look like it had to be Bear Camp, and they knew BC was clear.
1282 – 😡 😡 😦 I wish so much you could speak !!! Darn duct tape !!
I really wish John James would confirm his experience and
what was said again. Maybe if he confirmed it outside of the Oregonian, people would believe it more.
Sorry RRR, but I have to be honest here. All the quotes and
statements the first Oregonian article had about the interaction between John James and Sara R seem very accurate and indisputable and Sara R did not deny any of them.
I don’t think she thought the BLM gate was locked!
Bob Hollenbeck said it’s never been locked!
Does anyone know or is anyone at liberty to say whether or not John James was interviewed for the OSSA investigation?
It seems to me there are some real questions on his communications and we all know how that can go – you think you are saying one thing and the listener thinks they are hearing another. Makes me wonder just what the communication was and how much it played into this event.
1285/ Bob H did indeed, but there was certainly enough expectation that it should be locked that the BLM reported erroneously, initially, that it was. If they (BLM) was mistaken it is quite reasonable to think she might have believed that. You cannot see the gate from the fork.
1287- It would be my impression that if Bob Hollenbeck is a local who says that gate has never been locked, all locals especially all SAR leaders who get a lot of calls up there would know that – that gate is never locked.
Also the BLM was just squirming initially – they were just
trying to cover themselves, and then realized that wouldn’t work – so then they came clean and were more honest.
I think we need to let Sara R. and Brian Anderson speak to this when they can. Response from John James would be good as well.
Even if the media is correct the key question remains how did they come to the conclusion that they Kims were not in the area.
1286-
Here is what was said:
“That same morning, John James, 45, the owner of Black Bar Lodge on the Rogue River, heard about the Kims ontelevision and “had a hunch” they were up on that very spur road. James said he has redirected countless motorists over the years who had strayed off Bear Camp onto the logging road.
He left a message with Rubrecht but says she didn’t call back, an account Rubrecht later confirmed. So James and his brother went up the spur road on their snowmobiles. It hadn’t snowed for a few days, and he said they hit bare ground after traveling about one mile. Before that, however, they could see fresh tire tracks that had been snowed over recently.
Later that day, he ran into Rubrecht and Stanton on Bear Camp Road. He says he told them about the tracks and that someone needed to check the logging roads thoroughly.
He says Rubrecht brushed him off. “She was rude in attitude, very curt,” James said. “They definitely weren’t real receptive to us being up there, it was like, ‘Joe Public doesn’t belong here.’ ”
Rubrecht doesn’t deny being impatient with James on the road that day. “I was trying not to throw up,” she said. Rubrecht does not recall James telling her she needed to check his road. On the contrary, she said she “lowered it on her priority list” because she recalls him saying he had checked it.
She says she did not, however, cross the road off the list of possibilities. “I would have never cleared the road just by some citizen telling me they ran the road,” she said. “But it may have gotten mentally lowered on the priority list because we only had a limited number of resources in the first couple of days.”
She says she only remembers James tell her generally to “check those spur roads,” to which her response was, “Duh? What else am I going to do?” “
1290 – Yes, that’s the version we’ve heard so far in a previous (12/17) Oregonian article.
1289 – Agreed.
Just a blurb from the Oregonian…..to the washington post article but I thought I would share….
http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/oregonian/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_oregonian_news/archives/2007_01.html#222771
Good Morning…not a good night’s sleep for me.
I was awake most of last night tortured by thoughts and visualizations of their trip. Some were as though I were in the car driving, experiencing the confusion, fear, dread, decisions of what to do next. Went to bed after Paul’s kind thoughts to Kati’s dad (1265)regarding Kati’s last two nights without James. Just can’t seem to let this go, as I’m sure the family any all of you can’t. I have fairly accurate imaginative visions having been there and in similar places a lot.
I have relief from the Mt. Hood search as I can relate less to that predicament and know I will never climb mountains in the snow.
1280- Regarding this quote “I read into the article that Sara R concluded they were not in Jos. Cnty. because they HAD cleared BC from end to end, not an unreasonable assumption IF you thought BLM road 38-8-36 was locked. Did Sara R know it was unlocked? Also, there was a miscommunication that 34-8-36,where they were ultimately found, was cleared. How did that miscommunication happen? It seems a critical mistake/miscommunication.
My question is: we KNOW Bear Camp has been a source of repeated trouble before. How often has 34-8-36 been a problem and, if often, why was it not more carefully considered? We know the signs are hopelessly inadequate at the fork, that is clear from the photos.”
Paul, is this a typo “38-8-36” and did you mean 34-8-36?
Or is the road that has the BLM gate a different road than the one they drove down to get out of the snow and spend the night? I remember Kati said that they drove a couple of miles down a road to turn around. I think this was in the phone call to her friend (Lee?). I have to find that, have read it several times, but the chain of events per Kati’s comments are still confusing. If you don’t want to backtrack, I’ll do some research.
This inquiry brings some comfort…for my pride as an Oregonian–I want us to do the right thing, for the possibility of a better understanding of the the Kim’s experience, and for the probability that we will vastly improve our SAR capabilities. I believe that all hearts are in the right place, in spite of mistakes and careless comments.
1290-
There are a lot of direct quotes in there.
To me the key question is why did they think they could
come to that conclusion without having cleared BLM 34-8-36, the road which so many locals knew they might be on?
1293 – Sorry, good catch Orygungirl – it was the typo gremlins…MORE COFFEE, need more coffee !!!
1295- Its cause he dosen’t drink Dutch Bro’s
1296 – And I am enjoying a Dutch Bros right now, since you mentioned it. But I’m not sharing 😉
1297- I was RUDLY awaken by a text message on my phone this morning so I went straight to the Diet Pepsi….
So, to clarify, BLM 34-8-36 is:
1. The road with the BLM gate
2. The road to Black Bar Lodge
3. The road they were found on some 17 miles down.
4. The road John James thought they were on and didn’t check because of the patchy snow.
5. One of the roads Sara said she would check (an assumption) when she said “duh”.
OR
6. Not a road she intended to check thinking John had checked his own road.
1299- You couldn’t have hit the nail any harder on the head!
1299- But it isn’t “John James’ Road”! It’s a BLM road!
And he didn’t say he checked it all!
He told her about the tracks on BLM 34-8-36 and said someone needed to check!
He wouldn’t have said that if he had already checked it all
himself!
Too bad he didn’t tape record the conversation!
(1294) Hi Lisa I could show you a dozen articles that I have been “quoted” in and they got it wrong. It is very frustrating when the media takes 1 sentence out of 10 and makes that the quote.
You have to be very careful how you answer questions from the press – believe me they can make you look like a genius or a complete idiot. And of course you never to get review what they are writing before it goes to press. That is one thing that a blog could help with is let the people in the article have their speak.
Something else I have been thinking about.
Let’s assume for speculation sake that Sara R. did come to the conclusion that Bear Camp Rd was cleared and was part of the decision to “end” the search in JoCo.
With all the input she had to decide which input was valid, trusted, etc. She may have come to the conclusion on the wrong input – it happens to a lot of us every day. It doesn’t excuse that is could have been a bad conclusion. Sometimes we end up in wrong place with our assumptions, input, etc. Not so dissimilar to what happened to the Kims.
It has been reported Sara R. had information from someone that worked with her husband and that person was 99.9% sure he saw the Kims and their vehicle elsewhere. She probably weighed that input pretty heavily – trusted source, eyewitness account. John James reported he had driven his snow mobile up to a certain point but ran out of snow but he saw recent tire tracks and that is should be looked into. This information as it turned out was pretty important but at the time when compared to an eyewitness report might not have had as much weight especially with a lot of people up there getting Christmas trees, etc.
I am probably wrong on my analysis and eventually I am sure Sara R. can clarify but I thought I would share my thoughts especially since I was so critical in the beginning.
I think it is very important we all take the time to understand why the decision was made and how they got there.
Besides the next time John James could be wrong and other employee that worked with Sara R.’s husband could be right – that is the reality of this type of stuff.
footnote: These are my thoughts and have had no direct input from any of the parties involved with this. Just in case someone is thinking a little bird is talking to me about this.
Good Morning, everyone. At this point, I am so ready to hear from SAR and JoCo Sheriff’s and hear their perspective, as well as the report from the Portland. I don’t doubt there was confusion, and it’s obvious that communications suffered. Even Det. Mike’s conversation with the State Police Detective is remembered with two diametrically opposed viewpoints re: the Fuqua info.
Adding to the inherent incident manageability problems in the system are the human perceptions involved. Look at how we all have perceived the same info differently, based on our background and experience (and availability of certain coffee). During the incident, it’s “What did I say vs. what you heard me say”. People think they are being succinct and informative, but the other person hears something else entirely. This is bad enough under normal circumstances, potentially fatal during a SAR operation.
1301 – As reported by the Oregonian. But I’m very interested to hear the rest of the story from pages back when JoCoSAR indicated that there may be more information about this but was not at liberty to discuss. Maybe that is correct. Maybe it’s not. I’m holding out until after the OSSA report once everyone can speak more freely.
1305- And you can guarentee keyboards will be smoking on that day!!
Why would we say that he saw tracks someone needed to check
out if he had already checked it all out himself?
He wouldn’t!
1307 – Lisa, please see Glenn’s 1303 and Madeleine’s 1304 – that’s the reason I can’t feel so certain and why my mind’s not made up about anything yet.
1299 – Orygungirl – Isn’t it typical that the media and many people zero in on the one weird comment somebody makes (we all did this)? Sheriff Daniels will be known for his “common sense” remark, which may indeed have been meant different to him than it sounded, and Sara R. gets stuck with the more verbally colorful “Duh!”, if that was even an accurate quote at all.
I think that what is obvious is that there was not a thorough and conclusive search that even checked out all leads and even all most likely spur roads before that conclusion was reached.
It seems like a very sloppy search to me.
With conclusions that were based on assumptions and
not evidence.
And that’s was it was wrong.
1310- typ0
And that’s why (the conclusion of the search)
was wrong.
(1310) Yes Lisa something went wrong. I think an “eyewitness” account had the trump card here. Maybe Mike W. can shed some light on this…
Does an eyewitness account have more weight then some physical evidence that could or could not be related?
To me Lisa that is the crux here – a “definite eyewitness” account versus physical evidence that may or may not be connected. I have to believe the eyewitness account would trump almost every time especially if the witness were a trusted source.
1310- Ok just in general from the SAR point……When someone is lost you need to have a Last Known Point (LKP) to begin a search. Such as BC area, we can send people out to search the area since it has been narrowed down. Now a call of my family is traveling from Portland to Gold Beach (without the narrowing of the CC info to Roseburg) you can’t just randomly send searchers out to search a random area…..Make sense?? So if I am reading the timeline right, the time that Sara R. stated they were finishing their search was BEFORE the narrowing down and was just out searching BC as a courtious since SAR gets calls about lost people or stranded people often in the BC area….
Ok going back to my duct taped corner!
Madeleine I just dont think Sara R and Daniel should be put in the same category for anything. He should have to answer for his common sense comment. Was it common sense that led to a chicken stompin’??!?!
(1314) Agreed I don’t think we know anything about Daniel and from what I have read it what I have seen doesn’t look to positive.
1303/Glenn – just to clarify (and RRR chime in here if I am wrong), you wrote: “Let’s assume for speculation sake that Sara R. did come to the conclusion that Bear Camp Rd was cleared and was part of the decision to “end” the search in JoCo.” My understanding from various accounts that it was a definite that BC WAS cleared, by snowcat, end to end. I agree with what you are saying, but the issue wasn’t BC as they got a cat all the way through, it was confusion on 34-8-36, the fork to the right.
1308-
Maggie, thank you I have seen them. And again blame is not what is important to me. But the truth is.
Of course, I have also not made up my mind conclusively.
But all evidence is leading in this direction as of now,
and favoritism, protectionism, and conveniently couching the truth in rationalized explanations will not work, if
that is the final outcome.
My thought is if Sara did make a mistake, without intention or negligence, just an honest mistake or misunderstanding, then this is where she learns from it. This is the first question of Sara’s judgements that I have been able to find (though i could be wrong). However, my point is I have come across a LONG list of misjudgements, mistakes, and in my opinion, a lack of common sense of Sheriff Daniel. Just an outsiders opinion. Everyone makes mistakes. EVERYONE. including pac. the true test of character is learning from them.
1317-
When it is more conclusive, I just mean if these were the mistakes that were made, they need to properly recognized!
(1316) That is correct. I should have clarified that point. No one ever said all the spur roads were cleared. However John James did make a point to Sara R. to check 34-8-36 which is a spur road. Thanks for the clarification Paul.
1317/Lisa: Those are strong words “favoritism, protectionism, and conveniently couching the truth in rationalized explanations” and I take strong exception. You are implying that most of us are taking sides in defense of Jos. Cnty, and I don’t read that into the comments at all. What I read is people saying to keep an open mind until ALL SIDES have had a chance to give their version/account of events. I will say again: I have lost track of how many times we have had to adjust our conclusions and theories with the release of additional facts from parties unheard from before.
Glenn in the governors report, it is REPORTED that Sara said and ALL SPUR ROADS are cleared.
1316- I believe it falls down to interpretation…..A family is heading to the Coast from Portland to Gold Beach…..Oops we found them in Roseburg, so MAYBE they took Bear Camp road…Lets go check Bear Camp road as if we were traveling to the Coast as if they were traveling NOT LOST NOT OVERDUE just TRAVELING…..Just to make sure they aren’t on BEAR CAMP road…… Ok Bear Camp is clearn meaning the ROAD Bear Camp is clear…..now to some that may mean JUST Bear Camp is clear…..Or that ALL spur roads off Bear Camp AND Bear Camp are clear……its about interpretation
1318-
Yes, it’s not about blame.
But if the mistakes aren’t properly recognized, they
won’t really be learned from.
And there were mistakes made all around. We are just
dicussing these potential mistakes at this time.
1314 – To be fair, I ran across some bad press given to Sheriff Daniel that goes back before this incident, where he was probably right and a lot of people didn’t give him credit (not the chicken incident). I only say this because I have firsthand experience with some of the other parties involved, and he was right to anticipate trouble. Not saying he handled it perfectly, I have no idea, but his concerns were legitimate.
My only point is that we all make judgments based on soundbites or misquotes at times, and the people involved are forever tagged with them.
(1317) Lisa I would ask you to consider the following hypothetical situation.
Assume you are out in the woods looking for a friend that is lost. While you are out there someone in the area comes up to you and states – hey I saw some footprints over there and they look pretty recent…and shortly there-after you get a phone call from someone you know and they tell you they definitely saw your friends 10 miles from where you were…
What decision do you make?
I think it is pretty easy to understand how easy it would be to take the wrong path.
Just my two cents…I also think we need to be as accomodating and open-minded as possible if we really want to get the truth – afterall until we have the truth we can’t really make all the improvements that could be made to this process.
1314 Tara, Madeleine
1263-As I posted above, common sense is subjective. We all have our concept of what it is based on our life experiences. A world traveler would certainly have more than me, especially one that got out with the people, so to speak. I have been told many times that I am too trusting and too friendly to go to an (inner) city alone. I’m not defending his statement as it appeared to be judgmental and probably a result of frustration with his job and the people he encounters who are so different from himself. But, in his mind, they were’t using his concept of common sense.
(1322) I am corrected again. Thanks Tara…see how easy it is with all the facts and non-facts swirling around.
(1324) You are absolutey right!
Are you sure you don’t want to debate that Glenn??? 🙂
*I know back to my duct tape corner!*
1324- So a mistake was made….Live and learn and move on until you have to use it again…….Does the gov report state anywhere that this Sara R. is the one in charge??
(1330) I think Pete brings up a good point (1323) it may come down to interpretation on whether the spur roads were cleared or not.
Personally I don’t see how that could be possible given the time-frame and level of resources deployed. I would think it would take a team of well coordinate sno-cats that have local knowledge of the roads to clear them in 3-4 days.
Given a proper search protocol they would be looking for them not only on the road but off the road in an accident, etc…
Also I am sure there are mistakes in the GR especially since there weren’t any personal interviews done to discuss what has been transcribed from multiple sources. Just because it was written down doesn’t make it accurate.
1299 –
BLM 34-8-36 starts at Galice, climbs Galice Ck. At the boundary with the National Forest, FS23 branches off to the left. BLM 34-8-36 continues on the north side of a ridge, and eventually follows the 2000 ft contour around Big Windy Ck, past the Black Bar Lodge turn off. It continues another 6 miles to the junction where the Kims’ car was found.
The lower part of 34-8-36 is also called Galice Access Road. FS23 is also call Bear Camp Road. Near the summit of FS23 there is a primitive campground called Bear Camp Pasture. In various usages, Bear Camp is applied to the whole route from Galice to Agness, and possibly various spurs.
The best reconstruction of the Kim’s route is that they started up BLM 34-8-36 (Galice Access) and continued on it pass the FS 23 to its end. It is unclear where they had to backup. Early discussions thought it was FS23. My best guess now is that they took one of the spurs off the end of BLM 34-8-36, hit snow, and backed down to the junction where they spend the next week.
I don’t think all the details about the search on FS23 and BLM 34-8-36 are out. It appears that the initial official efforts were to the clear the through route, by truck from both ends, and eventually by snow machine over the summit.
Miscommunication about how far the BBL caretaker had driven BLM 34-8-36 may have delayed a search down its whole length. However, the SAR volunteer who posted here around Christmas talked about a systematic effort to clear the whole length of Bear Camp and its spurs, starting from the Galice turn off. The way I understood it, this systematic search had reached the spur portion of BLM 34-8-36 the Monday morning that the car was found.
Hindsight says they should have done a quick search down 34-8-36 all the way to its end right away. But what if the Kims had slid off the Access road before the 23 junction, or had gone off on some spur of 34-8-36? A quick run down the road might not have been consistent with good SAR practice.
We also need to be careful about terminology when interpreting statements about previous SAR missions in the area. Finley, for example, was found on the Curry side of the Bear Camp summit. Stivers were lost on the other side of the Rogue River. I don’t know if anyone else was ever found at the far end of BLM 34-8-36.
paulj
Paulj,
“Hindsight says they should have done a quick search down 34-8-36 all the way to its end right away. But what if the Kims had slid off the Access road before the 23 junction, or had gone off on some spur of 34-8-36? A quick run down the road might not have been consistent with good SAR practice. ”
one suggestion on this blog about the quick run to the end of 34-8-36 was: have a quick run down the middle and a slow methodical search going behind.
Perhaps something to be considered in future cases…
(1331) I think this forum has been given enough insight into to Sara R. to see that she is an upstanding person and frankly like any human allowed to make mistakes – that’s life. Given her track record up to this is what speaks volumes about her.
The same goes for James Kim. His track record up to this series of mistakes was exemplary. Unfortunately he doesn’t get a second chance.
However, Sara R. does and we all better do everything we can to make the best of it and make sure people learn how this can potentially be avoided in the future that is assuming it could be.
I would like to hear Kati’s Dad’s opinion on this…
What is the end desire? someone fired? someone who LEARNED from this invaluable experience? I think that it will come out that no, this wasnt the perfect SAR operation. But is there such a thing? the scrutany comes from the high profile of the kim case. Scrutany can be good to learn from. It causes a indepth hard look at mistakes that were made and what can be done in the future. But to try to blame someone for the not perfect sar operation is futile. there will never be one person to blame. It was a HUGE group of people and circumstances. There will never be a perfect SAR operation. But it can get better. with CONSTRUCTIVE critisms, and a look at the future to apply what was learned.
My point is yes its important to examine the facts, present them, learn from them, and change accordingly. finger pointing and blame arent constructive. IMHO. BUT facts are. IMHO
😀 Attention 😀
It’s clear a lot of the key people are now checking in here, sometimes with comments but usually not commenting yet. Also clear that few involved think the newspaper accounts, and even the Governor’s report, are “getting this story right”. Maybe we can help fix that with more detailed information and answers.
If you are under the gag order I encourage full compliance until it’s lifted but if you can write please feel free to do so. Use the comments here or send one to me by email:
jhunkins@gmail.com and I’m happy to post the perspectives of the key people on a separate page for easier reference.
1335- I am just asking as to I have only just skimmed the report, and from the article in today’s Oregonian…my understanding of ICS is that the person in charge is the IC and sounds like OSP took that…..Yet as Search and Rescue Coordinator that dosen’t sound like an “incharge” postion more like logistics or something of that line……The person to get all the SAR help contacted and get them organized…I was just wondering if it was actually deemed that Sara R. WAS in fact IN CHARGE or if it was OSP or some Deputy….
“Weinstein said he quickly related this description to state police Detective David Steele, who was running the tip line in Salem. But Steele, in his report, remembers hearing something quite different.
The cell phone tower — not the Kims’ phone — was “near the top of Bear Camp Road,” Steele wrote, reversing the antenna’s location with where it pointed. He forwarded the erroneous information to searchers in Southern Oregon, records show.”
From the Oregonian article today.
So I suppose that JoCo SAR (I mean Jo County) will say the cell phone info made no sense– so in effect we waited until 1100 hours on Sunday in our meeting with Mr. Fuqua to figure it out. That is a COP-out (pun intended).
It should take about three seconds for someone in the Ops center at JoCo to realize there is no cell phone coverage on Bear Camp Road, so how can a tower be there, so something is amiss. Let’s call Fuqua at his home at 2100 on Saturday night during the night shift when Phil was there and get this straightened out. Or question the source of the new info back up the line to the source. I am making alot of assumptions here, but I just want to put a marker down, that this is no excuse.
I am also open-minded about JoCo SAR saying that ‘we are calling off the search in JoCo county’ late Saturday or Sunday, because that sounds unreal– There must be some position in the middle of this muddle.
On a positive note, I am pretty certain the Governor and his task force is going to solve this, so if I get lost, I hope it is in Oregon. I still am stunned that the State police and the Portland police were able to put so much attention on it from day one.
1331 – “Does the gov report state anywhere that this Sara R. is the one in charge??”
Pete, now that is a good question. Pages back it was mentioned by JoCoSAR as well that Sara R may not have been given as much ability to take the actions/make the decisions. Something about getting pens and toilet paper… Anyway, in the GR it’s hard for me to really tell either way.
1340…But I DID see in the GR that she was the one getting meals together for pilots and places to stay, so that jives with the comment by JoCoSAR.
1340- So if it dosen’t state that this Sara R. is the one in charge why all of the personal attacks from the Oregonian to her?? Because she is the one that got qouted on what possibly was wrong!? Makes no sense to me
Paul-route description is very helpful, especially finding out that 34 is the Galice CK. road. That explains all the photos of road signs with Galice Ck. on them. I’ll spend some time on that with the map.
Another question: how far is the Bear Camp Viewpoint from the intersection of BC/34 and is it on 34 or BC?
Is it on 34 or BC?
My refresh function is taking a long time. Do you think it’s because this page is getting so long?
Anyone else having this problem. I had to close out all the other web pages I had open, but it’s still taking too much time.
1326- Glenn, I wouldn not trust only one source. Not even
if it was an “eyewitness” account, when pictures of this family and their vehicle had been all over the news for days.
1332- To me, then you cannot say the spur roads have been
checked.
You have to be thorough to be conclusive!
And some spur roads have obvious priority!
Why did so many locals think they may have been down that
road!
Why did John Rachor check down that road!
Why not use the heat seeking helicopters starting Sun., when
you had the cell phone that narrowed it down to 34-8-36
because of elevation issues, and Bear Camp had been cleared?
I hope thermal imaging becomes a more inexpensive and widely used technology that can help find people in time in the future.
1341 – Now that you mention it, Tara. I did see that, too. So was Sara R not the IC?
yes 1343. after about 1000 comments my computer starts complaining. takes longer to load. that is why we have so many pages thus far…
1343- No problems refreshing here….
1345. doesnt state conclusively. but imo, that pairs up with what JoCoSAR told us about the position of Sara in the operation. perhaps SOMEDAY, we’ll find out for sure.
(1342) The press will take the quotes from whomever and whichever ones support their agenda of selling newspapers and getting people’s eyes open.
Granted that is a generalization however that is what newspapers are in the business for…sell newspapers…not report the facts.
So until you have a complete picture and personal “testimoney” directly from the people involved the media perceptions is almost 100% wrong.
1345- That is my question as to WHO is the IC…..Didn’t sound like this Sara R. person is and that the Oregonian is out on a Man (or women) hunt for ONE to blame as you all have said there isn’t really ONE…..
Didn’t I read someplace that the IC is usually a Deputy like the OSP Officers, or a Road Deputy from the Sheriff’s departement???
I agree pete.
Tara, Pete – I agree, too!
(1344) Lisa I have all the same questions you do and have had them since the beginning just like you and many others here – we have re-hashed them over and over again to the tune of over 6000 postings!
However, we cannot answer those questions until we have direct input and response from the people involved. I think we all agree bad decisions were made. For anything to be improved I think the process that led to those decisions seriously needs to be reviewed.
Lastly you need to decide what to do with the people that made the mistakes – since from what I can tell with all the information so far – nobody made a decision with mal-intent so it should be chalked up as an expensive learning event.
I am sure many will disagree but I don’t see how going for blood will change the situation for James or his family. We can grasp this opportunity to fix some things and hopefully will result in a more positive result in the future.
It looks to me as if by Dec. 3rd when the search area was narrowed down to BC, that OSP Lt. Brian Powers was at least somewhat in charge. at least at that point… it appears that way in the GR
1336-
Tara, I don’t know if this post was semi/directed at me. I hope you understand that finger-pointing and blame is not my point. I have said that so many times. I have not focused a lot on names, unless there was no choice to clarify.
But how can the mistakes be pointed out? Without the people
who made them potentially being known?
And I’ve said so many times mistakes were made all around!
(1350) I don’t think the Oregonian is out on a witch-hunt. I also really don’t think to them it is personal. I think they are trying to sell papers and headlines and get their brand in front of as many people as they can.
The more eyes they have the more print they sell and more advertisers will flock to them. It is kind of sick cycle but that is how it works and btw why I think newspapers are obsolete in an information aged based society.
If you asked somebody 40 years if they ever saw a day where opinion and information flowed so freely, I wonder how many people would think this could exist.
1355- But in TRUE ICS systems isn’t there like 4 departments UNDER the IC, I mean the IC makes the “ULTIMATE” descision but isn’t his descions helped by those working for him……Meaning Operations (aren’t they the ones in the field), Planning (These look like the paperpusher), Logistics (this maybe where that Sara R. was but looks like a postion of just gathering resources at the request of IC), Finance (In charge of money to pay for resources)….Just reading a flow chart
Lisa, it was a general comment. to all.
On MS Streets and Trips, at full zoom, there four further Y junctions on BLM 34-8-36 that could be confusing. Why did they stay on 36 rather take one of these branches? Was it because the 36 choice was obvious in each case, or was it just a matter of (bad) luck? On the map a couple of roads branch off 36 and rejoin it (34-9-7, 33-9-5). So in theory the Kims could have gotten to their final spot without staying on 36 all the time.
paulj
(1356) I just hope we are able to foster an environment here for those people to come forward and speak their mind so we can better understand the mistakes and whether they were mistakes at the time or not. A very key element here is the timeline of the decisions, data available at that time, etc.
BTW that doesn’t mean we rollover and not challenge. I think the whole point of the approach is to have people challenge each other as I go back and look at the discussions (arguments, etc…) in every one of them out poured excellent information which may not have bubbled to the surface. The back and forth discussion is critical to this process having overall success.
My letter to the Washington Post regarding the Spencer Kim column:
As a resident of the Northwest, I respect Spencer Kim’s efforts to save his son, James Kim, who died in Oregon’s Coast Range in December. I feel for the Kim family in their time of grief.
However, neither grief nor determination excuses the Spencer Kim’s misrepresentations and ingratitude expressed in his Jan. 6 column.
Oregon police interviewed his surviving daughter-in-law, Kati Kim, over a period of several days, and the results were reported by the Associated Press. The AP account shows that the Kims were not misled by the signs on the wilderness road they used on the night of November 25, but in fact made a decision to take the logging spur where rescuers eventually found their car.
It was one of the Kims’ many mistakes that led to their becoming stranded.
The family left Portland, Oregon too late on Nov. 25. When they missed not one but at least two separate turnoffs for the more viable route to the coast, Oregon Highway 42, they disregarded a printed warning on their highway map against the route they decided to take. Once on that route, they passed three prominent signs warning that it “may be blocked by snowdrifts.”
And when they chose the logging spur where they became stranded, they didn’t take the opportunity afforded by the wide intersection to simply turn around and go back toward the Interstate highway from which they’d come. Instead, they headed down an unpaved road that wasn’t on their map. They did all of this with two very young children in their car, lacking appropriate food, clothing and supplies.
The Kim ordeal was tragic, but it wasn’t the government’s fault. Spencer Kim, the government tried to save your son and his family from the consequences of their own folly.
Charles Wilson
Seattle, WA
Joe we need another page…this is getting very long…please.
1354- I’m not going for blood!
It’s just about looking the truth. [And when we know it for sure.]
I feel strongly about learning from these issues because people’s lives were/could be at stake!
Not because I want to blame people!
If you take the blame issue off the table (as I have), then you will see that what I am really talking about are the mistakes, because if you don’t talk about the mistakes, and
what they were, they won’t be learned from.
(1362) Thanks Charles for sharing your opinion.
Was the road they ended up not paved? I thought it was?
Also how do we know they even knew what road they were traveling down wasn’t on their map…they may have thought the road was on their map. I don’t know but I just don’t know how we can assume they chose a road that wasn’t on their map.
Additionally given the worsening conditions maybe they thought the fastest way to lower elevation was the way to go – again I am just speculating.
Kati’s comments to the AP really don’t give very many detailed explanations about their decisions. Hopefully we will get them from her.
Also many locals here who know the roads have stated they have been in the same situation as the Kim’s including some who hunkered down for the night to let the weather pass and hoping daylight would shed better information for them.
1360 – Paulj, I was able to find at least one alternate route when tracing it in Google Earth, so you are correct that you can still take that initial right onto the BLM road but not stay on it to get there. The problem was that the elevation on the “alternate” route I traced was quite a bit higher, so I felt it was unlikely. Anyway, if you have Google Earth (free download and very cool), you can take a look and even play around with it just to see.
(1364) Sorry Lisa I didn’t mean to imply you were out looking for blood. I meant it as a general statement for others. Your posts have been thorough and very thoughtful – I know you want to see good out of this. I am just engaging you to share my thoughts as I wind through this myriad of data, etc….
I am getting very creative with my duct tape! I have made a chair to sit in my coner wahooo Look at me
im getting another java chai….
(1362) Another point Charles if you take a really good look at the intersection to where they made their fateful turn you will see how easy it would be to go to the right on a wider road as opposed to going to the left (uphill) and narrow.
I took a poll albeit non-scientific but showed the photo to several people and asked them in if you were at this intersection in a bad storm on a road you didn’t know which way would you go and ALL of them stated they would have gone right. From the picture it looks like taking the left side is more like going off the main road.
In fact that is why John James spray painted the road warning them (of course you couldn’t see the paint in the snow). It is a mistake A LOT of people make even in the absolute best conditions – summer, perfect weather. To me I can hardly blame the Kims for take the turn down 34-8-36.
If anyone else disagrees with me regarding the intersection I would like to hear it and why. I am making my assessment based on the photographs I have seen – I have not been on that road myself.
1366/Glenn – I have not been down that road, but from various accounts I have read, and from the CNN video, my understanding is that road quickly goes from paved – at the fork – to gravel, to very rutted & poor condition in fairly short order. The CNN satelite truck driver refused to keep going on it for fear he would go off the edge. Bear Camp IS paved. One of the issues raised has been why did they continue on that road given its poor condition.
1371- I just want to touch on your comment glenn “It is a mistake A LOT of people make even in the absolute best condtions-……”
I just have to speculate from seeing the pictures that I don’t think folks would make the same choice in the middle of summer BECAUSE of the spray painting on the road it makes it VERY noticable as to what way you are to go…
The traffic in the summer time is WAY higher then also and more likely to follow someone on the road then just be the ONLY one on the road
AGAIN MY OPINION
The logging road was unpaved. We’ve all seen the TV footage. It is not on the map they used, which was the ODOT map. Kati Kim told police they took the logging road to get out of the snow, even though they didn’t know where that road went.
They shouldn’t have done that. They should have turned their car around and gone back to Roseburg or Grant’s Pass.
Yes, it would be good if Kati Kim would give a detailed public account, but she has not done it. So all anyone can do is read the various articles very, very carefully. Of all the accounts of their route, the AP story of Dec. 7 was the best I have found.
It’s short but very much to the point. It shows that the Kims decided to use the logging road, rather than ending up there because of bad signs. It also shows that they were aware of the snow warnings, because it was the fourth snow warning that made them change their route.
I realize that people sympathetic to the Kims are upset that their mistakes might be identified, but mistakes are mistakes regardless of who makes them.
http://tinyurl.com/yyq7ju
The relevant section:
Authorities said that over a period of days, Kati Kim recalled more and more them details that allowed them to piece together her husband’s final days.
After visiting Seattle and Portland over the Thanksgiving holiday, the family headed back to California, planning to stay overnight at a luxury lodge along the Rogue River near Gold Beach on the southern Oregon coast.
After stopping for dinner in Roseburg on Nov. 25, they headed south on Interstate 5, intending to cross the Coast Range on Oregon Highway 42.
Kati Kim told searchers that when they realized they had missed the turnoff, they looked at a roadmap and found a direct route that went from the little town of Merlin over the mountains to Gold Beach. They did not consult their two laptop computers for an online map.
After leaving the freeway, the Kims drove past a gas station, pizza parlor and coffee shop. On the way they passed at least three yellow signs warning that Bear Camp Road to Agnes and Gold Beach might be blocked by snowdrifts. The road is paved but one lane, originally built to haul logs out of the Siskiyou National Forest.
Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.
Glenn, once again, they did not take the logging road as the result of bad signs. They took it because of good signs. It was the fourth snow warning, and the snow that was falling, that made them change their route.
At that point, they had two choices: Take the logging road, or go back the way they came. They should have gone back the way they came. It was a tragic mistake on their part. The government didn’t do it to them. They did it to themselves.
1343 –
“Another question: how far is the Bear Camp Viewpoint from the intersection of BC/34 and is it on 34 or BC?
Is it on 34 or BC?”
Assuming Bear Camp Viewpoint is on the high point of FS 23, on the county line between Josephine and Curry, and the junction of FS 2308 (which also goes to Agness), the Kims car was found 5 miles (straight) to the NE. The FS23/BLM 34-8-36 junction is 7 miles away.
It is not entirely clear whether the cell phone maps narrowed the search down to the BLM 34-8-36 maze. The crucial junction is at 3500′ altitude. Bear Camp (FS23) climbs to something like 4500′. BLM 34-8-36 slow drops, reaching 2000′ near the Black Bar Lodge turn off. The car was a found at about this height as well. (Those altitudes are ones I took of Google Earth a couple of weeks ago.)
If Kims stopped at around 2am, and text messages came at 1:45am (is my memory correct?), that suggests that they were in cell phone line of sight near where they stopped. But reception at this low altitude must have been spotty, given the distance and hills between there and Glendale. I would expect better reception at the top of FS23 – but no one thinks they every got that high.
paulj
1372-1373 RRR I was just writing the same thing-re the painting on the road. But I am still confused as to whether they originally continued on 34/Galice Ck. Rd. as Paul has mentioned, or whether they went up BC to the left and came back.
Does anyone know where the Viewpoint is in relation to 34/BC intersection?
Welp….I am off to go put myself together for the day…Check back later gaters!
1374: This is not what Kati said!:
“After leaving the freeway, the Kims drove past a gas station, pizza parlor and coffee shop. On the way they passed at least three yellow signs warning that Bear Camp Road to Agnes and Gold Beach might be blocked by snowdrifts. The road is paved but one lane, originally built to haul logs out of the Siskiyou National Forest.
Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.”
Do you really think Kati said:
“The road is paved, but one lane, originally built to haul logs out the Siskiyou National Forest.”
Come on, get some accurate quotes!
1377 – Somewhere here I’ve read that it’s unlikely that they would have been able to make the viewpoint because of the higher elevation and snow – at least, I think I remember reading it.
As to the intersection, there is some speculation as to whether they did go straight onto FS23 and turn around or whether they initially took the BLM road to the right and perhaps did any turning around on one of those spurs. The article mentioned in post 1374 seems to indicate that they did not actually continue at all onto SF23 and took the BLM to the right. Hard to say. And hard to know if Kati would be able to accurately describe since it was dark and confusing.
(1373) Thanks RRR…but why did John James have to spray pain the road to begin with? 🙂
(1375) Charles I don’t think anyone here is blaming the government for what happened to the Kims.
The criticisms that I am reading are about the decisions that occured during the SAR effort and the confusing and misleading information flowing from the media.
Thank you for clarifying the quality of the road where they were. From the photos I have seen it looks paved but then again that is pretty much at the beginning of the spur. And thanks to you to Paul (1372).
I can only speculate that they thought they were heading to a lower elevation to escape the white-out conditions. We will have to wait until Kati gives us further info.
As for the fateful decision to go the spur that is not where I think most people are wondering about – I have assumed they took it because they were seeking lower elevation quickly. I think the main thrust of inquiry by many of us is how they were ever led to believe that Bear Camp Rd is a good choice.
Before you jump all over me about the warning sign – the wording on the signs are just not clear – most people concur with that now – doesn’t mean the Government is responsible for the Kims decisions but what it does mean is those signs need to be fixed.
The Kims were not the first people to make the mistake based on the information in those “warning” signs and they won’t be the last until it is fixed.
Thanks again for taking the time to thoughfully respond and provide the information from the AP. Helpful refresher.
To avoid escalating the language, I will pause for a while. Also, this looks like the end of a comment page. A good time to wait until a seventh page gets started. I will have some more things to say to you later.
Please a new page, Joe. Having trouble with this site, but not others. Thanks.
1381- I think if you listen to the CNN interview again you will see James said it was him OR shuttle drivers…in the summer that road is very popular by rafters…for instance my shuttle drivers will drive it two to three times in a day for shuttling cars
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1381/Glenn: This is the point I cannot get my arms around. IF they were seeking lower elevation quickly, why didn’t they just go back down the way they came from the fork? I’m not condemming them for the decision, I just don’t understand it. The road they were on climbs fairly steeply to the point where they veered right onto the BLM road. If you wanted to get down quickly why would you choose an unknown quantity over a known quantity? At least going back they would have their own tire track ruts to follow, far safer than creating new ones.
Charles from Seattle sounds awfully familiar…
Anyway, Glenn, as is probably obvious. I agree. It really isn’t much consequence to me why they got on the longging road, its why they thought it was okay to take bear camp road in the first place. Its also my professional opinion, that the ODOT map is not communicating the truth as effectivley as it should, or could. Indeed, not blame, its just what most government (and private sector) workers are glad to improve on if it has been highlighted as something that could be better.
my director asks me to change maps all the time. I dont yell at her and tell her she is wrong. On occasion I explain something to her that she may not understand and why it should be changed. But quite often, she asks me to make changes and I do not take it personally…but say, yes, you have a good point.
Then I go home and forget about it, and go back the next day and the same thing happens, no big deal. This is what we do. Who has a job and refuses to improve?
I’m just commenting on the map right now, but agree with many others here about other improvements that could be made, in the prevention area…..that do not at all signify blame, or worse, lawsuits on the horizon. Just concerned citizens trying to make it a safer place to drive, and make SAR a richer….as hopefully they wont have so many missions.
Man my typos are terrible…trying to eat too!
anyway, sometimes have to tell my boss why something should NOT be changed
and meant that maybe sar will have more money to keep if they dont have to go on so many missions in that area.
1360 I have been asking that question for several weeks. We discussed it a bit a few thousand posts ago. I wish that there were a definitely accurate map. Google Earth shows one thing, MS Streets and Trips another, Josephine County something very different. The Jo Co map on vthe ODOT site does make sense, if it is accurate, for why they took 34-8-36 and not one of the other spurs. Just the way that map is drawn seems to show that. Somebody said somewhere that some of those other spurs are only accessible by 4wd truck, which, if true, would explain why they didn’t use another spur (inthe absence of street signs on the BLM roads. Kati is really the only one that can explain and answer this question. Just my thoughts.
1382-
Mr. Wilson, you sound very polite. It just struck me
that – that part of the quote you included in your post was not Kati’s account, and it was implied that it was.
From all of Kati’s actual accounts so far – they were
not aware of the signs and issues that you seem to
believe they were aware of, until it was too late.
Also the important issues here are not about “sides,” and who’s right and who’s wrong. Everyone involved made mistakes. The importance is about understanding what mistakes were made and why, so that improvements can be made for the future.
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1372/1375 Didn’t realize the spur road shortly became a dirt road– maybe just past the unlocked gate which was 100 yards or so down the road. Wow. I wonder if the snow covered it and it felt like a hard surface on the night they drove down it. And to drive so far down it, has been a mystery too.
In any event it’s another in a series of mistakes that others have made on that road– that’s kind of the definition of stranded motorist.
I do remember seeing video of how narrow the spur was, but there was an overhead photo of the SAAB which looked like it was on a paved road or at least at a paved intersection which was covered by two or more inches of water.
Clearly some locals can clear this up. Sounds like a dirt road to me.
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