Kim Search discussion page 8

The Kim Story discussion continues below.

This is the 8th page of approximately 8000 comments so far. Please feel free to chime in.

For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages click here or at the “Kim Story” tab above. The Governor’s report and other documents can be found via the “Kim Story” page.

1,155 thoughts on “Kim Search discussion page 8

  1. The Kim Family Search discussion continues in this comment section. For previous information and related stuff please click on the “Kim Story” link at the top of any page or go here:

    😀 Attention 😀
    Some of the numbers people have used below may be off by ONE because comment moderation places comments in time sequence so they change the numbers.

    SO…best to use the normal blog convention of a person’s name and RE: or italics for best results.

  2. Just wanted to update all of you. There was a somewhat tense exchange between Myself and JOCOSAR the other night. You may have seen that we both agreed that a face to face would be good for us emotionally. Phil who posts here facilitated that meeting this evening and it was very beneficial.
    When the OSSA report comes out, (if) then you will certainly have a lot of additional insight to chew on.
    I would like to say that if by the time it goes through the filtering process and is compiled into the report I hope it is written as I stated it. We all know that when a story is told it can be related differently than it was originally stated.
    JOCOSAR and I made a point to allow each other to completely state our thoughts and then discussed and clarified.
    Our recollection of all of our interactions were not exactly the same so I guesss we may have to agree to disagree.
    I do know that I met with an intelligent and engaging woman who is so torn and devastated by all this that she is physically ill.
    I do feel that this lady has been left swinging at the end of a rope and that sucks. I don’t beleive she was the one in charge of all the logistics of the search so maybe some people should ease up on her. There were a lot of other players in the game.
    I still say that my early interaction with her was not very good but after visiting with her I maybe have a better understanding of where her state of mind was.
    I will come back after the report is out and advise you if I feel that my statements were portrayed as given to the investigators.
    Sorry for the long post but if you knew me you would think this is short.

    Comment by John James | January 11, 2007

  3. Oh I quickly scanned through some of todays posts and a couple of thoughts/answers. I don’t beleive they made the summit of the 23.
    The road from the time it leaves Merlin-Galice rd. Is the 34-8-36 rd. and is called the Galice Access rd.
    At the imfamous fork where the signs are at the 14 mile mark is where the BC23 rd. Known as Bear Camp rd. starts and forks left.
    The 34-8-36 forks to the right and continues out to where the Kims ultimately stopped at the intersection of County Line rd.
    Speculation has questioned if the Kims got to the “viewpoint on bear camp and went from there to where they got stuck and I say “NO WAY”.
    I am confident that they attempted to go up the BC23 and only barely went up, backed down and went to the right and continued down the 34-8-36.
    The reason the road went over the top was one of politicians wanted to make that road part of the “Winnemucca to the Coast” highway. Due to lack of interest and funding it was never made into a major thoroughfare.
    Hope this helps

  4. I was a little incoherent there but it is late and i worked 12 hours today just like most days

  5. Oh one other response to a question posted somewhere today??????
    I am pretty certain that they didn’t have a clue that they were any where near Black Bar.
    I need to get a life I am blogging to myself you are all in bed.
    I’m gone

  6. Hi,John..when I saw you came on I stayed here. It was me who wondered if they knew they were near your lodge. Still there?

  7. John….what a very kind and caring post.

    One of my great concerns has been the long-term damage that may be done to people by things that have been said since the Kims missed that turnoff onto 42.

    You, JoCoSar, and many others involved in this incident will, I suspect, have the rest of your lives colored by this tragedy. My heart goes out to each of you and I deeply wish that you will find the healing you seek.

    Many years ago, in another life, I worked as a pediatric nurse. The memories are still with me…the losses one couldn’t prevent…the sense of responsibility that one didn’t do enough.

    I remember as a child reading what was said to be an old
    French saying…”To know all is forgive all”. I try to remember the importance of forgiveness every day.

    My very best thoughts,

  8. It’s been a strange couple of days…many warnings of a storm that has moved into the northwest. Brought back memories of Thanksgiving week…and the weather warnings
    that occurred then. If I remember correctly, Mike Donahue
    from KOIN-TV in Portland had strongly warned that travelers
    should drive home on Saturday rather than Sunday because of an incoming storm. Gave me a bit of a chill when he did that.

    Haven’t seen anyone mention this yet…but remember seeing a brief news video several weeks ago. I think it was a cousin of James’…had been at the Thanksgiving gathering
    at Seattle. He mentioned how devoted James had been to the children…so much so that it had been very difficult to have a conversation with him because James was so busy tending to Penelope and Sabine.

    I thought of that interview when I read the comment from
    the Denny’s waitress that the Dad looked so tired. Road trips with young children can be hard on the parents.


  9. John, I think you’ve been very coherent and have truly shown your sincerity and desire to help in all aspects of this situation. Thank you very much.

    I don’t know if you will see this tonight but I wanted to ask you if you knew whether they were planning on changing the size or shape of the signs, because I think they way they are now, they don’t stand out as much as Warning signs
    really should. I think they would be more effective if they were diamond-shaped warning signs with a thick red border that would draw more attention to the fact that they are Warning signs, and not just ‘information’ signs.

    I also think there should be larger, clearer signs at the fork, to distinguish between Bear Camp and 34-8-36, possibly saying that 34-8-36 is not a through route. I don’t know what they would need to say in regard to not affecting traffic to your lodge.

    Before you came here and spoke, I had been inquiring about the signs and I had been referred to ‘public relations’. But it sounds like you have more direct contacts. There may even be more people, such as friends and co-workers of James who would be interested in donating money towards signs. I don’t know how much money is needed. I would be interested in knowing your thoughts about these ideas.

  10. 9,10- Thank you for your tender, caring thoughts Nancy. There has been so much that is heart-breaking in this story.

  11. #3 John James,
    Thank you for your update. Your narrative of it was very moving. You seem to be a mind with a kind soul.

  12. 14. #13 I meant to a say a man with a kind soul, although I guess that would mean you had a kind mind also.

  13. I will concede that the AP story by Jeff Barnard implies that they knowingly took the right side of the fork, knowing that the left fork was the route to the coast. As I have stated earlier, I’m possibly wrong and probably crazy, but I think this implication is wrong.

    To be clear, I can think of 3 scenarios:
    1. They knew the left fork went to the coast. They didn’t know where the right fork went. They took the right fork anyway.
    1a. They took the left fork, knowing it went to the coast. They decided they couldn’t make it on that road. They went back to the fork and took the right side, not knowing where it went.

    2. They didn’t even realize there was a fork and breezed right through the fork, taking the right side.

    3. They knew there was a fork. They made a conscious decision that the right side of the fork was the way to the coast, and took the right fork.
    3a. They knew there was a fork. They thought the left side was probably the way to the coast. They took the left side. They decided the left side must not be the way to the coast. They returned to the fork. They took the right side, thinking it was the correct road to the coast.

    Scenario 1 (and 1a) are implied by the AP story by Barnard.

    Scenario 2 and 3 (and 3a) explain (sort of?) why they would have continued for 20 miles on the BLM road. Namely, they thought they were on the road to the coast.

    Scenario 2 (and 3? and 3a?) are consistent with countless people taking the wrong side of this fork when trying to get to the coast.

  14. Orygungirl 854 – I was the one who posted a similar thought previously. I didn’t ho into that kind of detail though. What bothered me is the yellow warning signs ke4ep saying Bear Camp Rd when there are not any signs (as far as I know) saying that this road is Bear Camp Rd. As I previously noted, “Bear Camp RD” as a name if realy confusing. Different maps show it in different ways. As I started to follow this case, I kept trying to figur out just what “Bear Camp Rd” meant. Even posters on here have used it to refer to different things. I now know what it means to locals, but it is not likely that the Kim’s knew that night. If it were me driving I would assume the warning signs apply only to FS-23 and not to 34-8-36, especially with 4 warning signs for 23 and none for 34-8-36. I posted that I wondered if they perhaps thought 34-8-36 was a possible route around the closure on 23.

    I think the first improvement to the signs would be identifying which road is which. Other ideas that I saw here, I think from Paul, was to post signs on 34-8-36,after the fork, stating that “this is not a route to the coast turn around and use FS23” or something like that. There should be a now warning sign on 34-8-36, after the fork, as well. Perhaps the 4 warning signs should state “Coast Route closed Nov 1 – ? due to snow blocking the road”. Another warning sign saying, “Oregon Coast use highway 199” or something like that should be posted at the beginning in Galice. Also at the fork a big green sign (like on the freeway) or brown sign should clearly show which way to coast and in yellow on the same sign – “road closed Nov 1-?” Perhaps on the same sign or one next to it, “34-8-36 not a through route. Through traffic use FS-23”. Just some more ideas.

  15. Repeated posts since FoolsGold posted prior to caffeine taking effect:


    I think I would interpret those bright yellow signs about snow blockage to relate to “The Road” which in this case means: A series of roads of various official and unofficial designations leading to the coast.

    However, I don’t think a sign of ‘may be blocked by snow 28 miles ahead’ would be particularly daunting. I would continue onward seeing that message. Now add to it something about ‘No motorist services’ or ‘No food, fuel or lodging’ and you might get some different reactions particularly if traveling with kids in the car.

    What sign is appropriate for the ‘Fateful Intersection’?
    Narrow, uninviting and climbing road on the left is proper roadway to the coast, while wider and more inviting and descending roadway to the right is a logging road spur leading nowhere? Should there be an addendum to the sign about ‘If trying to get to a lower elevation in hopes of being “below the snow line” you ain’t gonna make it on this road’?

    Irrespective of fuel worries or eventual “snow blockage” concerns, what should have been done? Stop near that intersection and await daylight and passing traffic? Stop near that intersection and take coastal route in daylight if snow is not too deep?

    Taking a descending route to get below the snow line seems like a good idea, but for two facts: the road lead to nowhere and it did not lead below the snow lline. It simply caused them to get stuck in the snow off in the middle of nowhere rather than to get stuck in the snow along a route on which there MIGHT have been some sort of traffic eventually.

    They were already on a rather rough road in a remote area and there simply was not going to be a sign that said “this road off to the right leads to nowhere” since just about all the roads in the area lead off to nowhere.

    Duplicate information.

    In this search the request for credit card and phone information from the hotel appears to be a request for information that in fact had already been given to the “originating agency” (SFPD).

    Yes. Ofcourse. How many times do you have to enter onto the form the same information over and over. No matter what form it is. How many times do you have to go through the identification routine when dealing with a credit card company over some billing error? There is duplication. Some of the information may not have been in fact known to Portland at the time, some might. It would still have been useful, but the hotel felt privacy laws were a consideration too. Properly so to some, improperly so to others.


    Has anyone added up the various categories and numbers of detours and spurs that are available on this ‘coastal route commonly known as Bear Camp Rd’.

    Some suggested categories:
    Turnoffs that appear inviting.
    Turnoffs that appear to be the proper road.
    Turnoffs that appear to be daunting and remote.

    I certainly think that searching all the spurs may have been senseless but searching this particular spur road should have been a fairly high priority because of its known history as a common mistake in the area.

    Duplicate information

    The housekeeper who initiated the Missing Persons report may have had a list of all credit cards but the hotel might have been able to provide ‘credit card in use’. It might have been “better” information, it might not have been.

    Also ofcourse the various agencies may not have had all the information. When people started talking about the last known cell phone use they didn’t repeat the cell phone number.

    So even if the detective was asking for duplicate information, he may not have known it.

  16. 17 – Ater finally reading that article, I will NOT conced that it implies anything like what Charles is trying to make it say. Based on his own rules of interpreting that story, thew 4th sign is mentioned, but it doesn’t say that Kati mentioned it. If this is the AP article he keeps refering to, here is a quote,

    “Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.”

    It does not say that Kati told them they saw the sign. It seems that the reported added the detail about the 4th sign just same as he earlier did regarding After leaving the freeway, the Kims drove past a gas station, pizza parlor and coffee shop The way the reporter reported it sounds like he’s telling it in 3rd person and it is not clear that Kati told him they knew 23 was correct and they just decided to go the other way.

  17. 20. dkf747

    yeah, I love it when someone tells me how to read and what to conclude!! Notice that was one of his first posts as Charles, set to make us thing we all dont know anything about the media or comprehension.

    I can’t believe I missed an opportunity to freely tell Charles how I felt last night, as it seemed it was acceptable to do so by the majority! 🙂

    Though I must admit, I had gotten bored with his posts anyway and was able to easily skip over them.

    No matter who Charles was or shows up as next, I highly doubt he is a reporter.

    When he is not being horribly offensive (the most interesting thing he does) his writing is just tedious and uninteresting…long winded, reaching. Not good writing. Good grammar, good handle on the use of formatting. But…not good writing.

    Is it okay to post that? I’m challenging his idea that he is a hard hitting journalist. If he “was” it does’nt suprise me it is in the past.

    I am sorry Detective Mike had to go through that. Though I am sure he wasn’t the least bit worried about Charles accusations of defamation.

    But it is nice we seem to have all kinds of experts in the house (like Joy being a nice lawyer:) were any of Charlies mind control tactics to work on anyone.

  18. Regarding the Barnard AP story, it’s exactly the paragraph that dk747 quoted (along with earlier paragraphs that say “Kati Kim told searchers . . .” that *implies* that they knowingly took a road that they didn’t know where it went. In fact, the paragraph builds to it, but the implication is made in the last sentence, or even last phrase: “They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.”.

    I agree that it is merely a poorly written story. I would be very surprised if Kati said anything at all about the fork (and truly talking about THE fork) to anyone. That is why in comment #16 I asked if there have been any other reporting of any statements she might have made about the fork.

  19. mapper, thank you for not feeding the troll. He/she/it/whatever is not a run-of-the-mill mess ’em up SNR eating troll, but co-opting a discussion to serve one’s own agenda is the essence of a troll.

    The discussion of the hotel policy does illustrate one point. We have postdated information that was not merely unknown but unknowable at the time. The PPD did not know that any given set of records would duplicate information already known; they were trying to figure that out.

    I think I will try posting in the morning instead of close to midnight Eastern time; late at night I not only fall prey to a weakness for flowery language, I also lose my thread. JoCoSAR, you asked about the tendancy folks here have to grind their axes exceedingly fine. Based on my observations of online social behavior since 1984, I’d say this is quite typical and is not necessarily indicative of people’s “offline” state of mind. There have been some studies done that point to absence of normal social cues, among other things.

    I must be off to bedevil the lives of COBOL programmers everywhere. This is almost entirely unlike herding cats; it is something like herding clowns by throwing ballon-animal dogs at them. We put a flash-bang in every 100th or so dog to keep ’em hopping.

    Be excellent to each other!

  20. Tharwood – COBOL! Oh my, those clowns must be getting a little gray by now 🙂 Love the analogy!

    Thanks for your thoughts, information, and posts – even enjoyed the ‘flowery language’

  21. Tharwood…COBOL??? I thought after ADM Grace Hopper denounced the language she invented that it went by the way of the 8-track tape 🙂 My deepest sympathies… 😛

    Now that Volleyball has been finally rejected from this space I will feel compelled to participate again. It is my belief that he is collecting information off of others for his own profit at some point in the future. I just don’t want to be party to anything that profits anyone except Kati Kim and/or Oregon SAR.

    Rumor has it the OSSA report will be delayed again – I think everyone should realize how important this investigation is and how determined they are to get a factual representation of the events out. From my perspective I don’t care how long it takes to get the investigation as long as it is thorough. I guess patience is a virtue!

    John James I am glad you had a chance to talk to Sara R. directly – I hope you both can move on from it. I was pushing you the other night because I had some questions and you answered them – thank you – and I was satisfied with your answers and for the record I had no problem with you getting paid a reasonable fee for your services. I am sorry you felt attacked it was not the intention. I think the compensation question is a legitimate one to ask. I also realize now that you are battling some heavy waves of guilt (the ole woulda, shoulda, coulda) and you should rest assured that you did more than most would have done. I am positive the Kim’s are grateful for your efforts.

    I also think people should just back off on Sara R. at this point until we have all the facts then people can decide for themselves. I hope she can come out here and discuss the issues intelligently with everyone when the time is right. I really wish they would lift the gag. I think Phil’s post the other night is very telling. Remember she is physically ill and had to be hospitalized and she has the weight of the world on her – I don’t think she is the daughter of Atlas – let’s cut her some slack for the time being.

    Det. Mike W. I don’t think the fishing that VolleyBall (I can still hear Tom Hanks screaming “Wilson”) was attempting was on the mark. I think the work you did on the report is excellent and I really appreciate your willingness to share and spend your personal time here to help us all of understand this. The alignment of time, facts, and events cannot be accurately relayed in a police report as you said it has to be accompanied by personal testimony – thanks for adding the point I think it is very important. As I have said before to me you are a rare breed and demonstrate true leadership qualities. I think you have been forthright and you are not trying to SPIN anything.

    As yes I posted a couple of times yesterday as Lurking…but you all probably figured that out already. I was keeping my mouth shut but I couldn’t resist my comment about the LA Times and NY Times. The NY Times has even had a Pulitzer Prize winner caught plagiarizing. I am a WSJ fan and tend to try to read newspapers that are middle of the road – hard to find.

    Two things I think can be said about the news media. They measure their accuracy different than most of us do. 95% accurate is a perfect score to them – must be that new math. Also recent studies show that over 70% of Americans do not trust the media. That is a sad fact about our media. John Pulitzer once said the three most important things about reporting are: Accuracy, Accuracy and Accuracy. I am sure he has rolled over in his grave dozens of times by now.

    Sorry for the long post…

  22. Glenn…hahaha. I did not put it together that you were lurking (thought maybe it was someone who was gagged in a corner somewhere). But I was becomging concerned about your whearabouts. Though I know sometimes I have a life and though you might too, this was highly suspect.

    Interesting, about the 70% that dont trust the media. I wonder what the percent is that doesn’t trust the government, and if there is a lot of overlap there. I do remember learning in one my culturual geography classes, that, supposedly westerners are much more suspicious of government.

    Interesting. I guess, if your me.

  23. (32) Bamadad, Thanks for the link. I read the article and it is fairly balanced, however I keep getting this feeling by people reporting the story that they are missing a key element.

    James Kim leaving his vehicle actually played a major role in their discovery. If John R. had not his footprints in the snow he may never have gone to look further up that road.

    As everyone has stated they are surprised just how far they drove up the horrible road – any person experienced with the area would not expect someone to travel as far as they did on the road.

    Staying put is an old school rule. The problem with leaving is you are more exposed to the elements and you have to be prepared to plan your shelter needs, etc. Obviously James Kim was not in that state of mind. Many survival experts advocate moving to find help.

    I really wish people that are going to write an article would seek out an expert for some of this information.

  24. Good morning Glenn and welcome back! We missed you!

    The article Barnadad linked to mentions a BLM report that is due out the end of the month. I’ve skimmed a lot of the ‘volleyball’ exchanges and may well have missed it, however I don’t remember seeing anything about the BLM report before.

  25. 36 – OOPS should have included the section of the article I was referring to (I hate it when I hit submit before paste 🙂

    from page 2 of the Salon opinion link posted above:
    Sure enough, there has been a flurry of investigations and calls for action. They’ve come from Sen. Feinstein, the governor of Oregon, and the Bureau of Land Management, the federal agency responsible for the road where the Kims got stuck. The BLM’s investigation is expected to be complete by the end of this month

  26. (37) Angela, The investigation has been ongoing with BLM and is one they started early on. To BLM’s credit the initiated an internal investigation immediately before anyone asked them to and they came out right away and stated they didn’t follow procedure in conjuction with that gate.

    They said an internal investigation would be done to determine how, why, etc.

    It should be noted that in the very beginning someone stated that BLM did lock that gate and it was vandalized. I am sure if BLM said that or someone else did.

  27. Thanks Glenn,
    Understandably with so many parties involved there are so many reports and investigations that it is a whole other maze to follow.

  28. Seems to me that if Sara R can’t take public scrutiny she might want to think about getting in another line of work. Comes with the territory. Gotta be able to take the heat. It could happen again.
    Also doesn’t seem like a good idea to have an SAR coordinator who gets motion sick easy working in the mountains. It’s going to affect her work.
    Also sounds like she maybe changing her story and trying to get John James to feel guilty for being honest, even if it doesn’t make her look good. Trying to have it both ways.
    I don’t mean to be sexist, but I think most men in her position would just take it in stride. It happens.

  29. (39) Angela in regard to the gate. It should have been locked in any case. I can understand someone making the decision to delay closing the gate because they thought someone might still be up there…but within 3 weeks someone should have determined that and eventually closed and locked that gate.

    I know the locals will jump up and down about this. But somebody within the BLM understood the problem up there otherwise they would not have created a policy that stated the gate should be closed and locked on Nov 1st.

    It doesn’t mean that if the gate were locked and closed that the story would have ended up any differently just would have been a different spot where it all went down.

    I also think an approach that allowed locals access to area while making it VERY CLEAR WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that if you don’t know THIS road you shouldn’t be here!

  30. Good morning all.

    Bamadad thanks for that link. It was definately one of the more balanced articles I’ve read, and the reporter makes some strong points in regard to Mr. Kim’s letter to the WP.

    Glenn, glad to see you back as you. I suspected yesterday, you were incognito as Lurking.

  31. 40- Your’re right, I suppose if she woke up feeling sick that day, she should have called into work sick…oh wait, the one person that called in sick that week was criticised for that as well. How do you win?

  32. I won’t be posting here a lot – don’t want to start any fights. Just reading and had to put in my 2 cents.

  33. (40) Oldtimer, I have no problem with public scrutiny on anyone whether they are male, female, green or even alien. It does go with the territory.

    Out of respect for her track record (which is pretty darn good if you take the time to look) and her inability to actually comment on the subject what would it hurt anyone to wait for the OSSA and then discuss. If you have any doubt about my position I suggest you read early on in this thread and see how critical I was of Sara R.. That was really obnoxious of me to do without all the facts. It was purely an emotional response given the limited facts we had from the press.

    I am not sure it was motion sickness that she was experiencing – I do know that she had a medical problem and that may be a contributing factor.

    I think the male/female comment is really unnecessary. I think it has been shown many times over that men and women are equal except that we each come from different planets. 🙂

    I guess I missed the part about making John James feeling guilty. I don’t remember reading that. We have no way to judge whether Sara R. has and or is changing her story – she can’t talk about it.

    We do know that John James has said in his own words that he has changed his story and he wasn’t trying to deflect or be malicious he just tried to keep some details out of the press and elaborated more information during the official investigation. John James please clarify my point if I have this wrong.

  34. touchy subject.

    Oldtimer doesn’t help his position by calling himself oldtimer.

    however, it is no secret, especially to us women that people harbor these thoughts, wether they are vocal about them or not in the workplace. It has been my experience we have to work much harder for people to take us seriously, and sometimes even make ourselves less attractive. What is funny, is how often people are surprised by smart women, especially those of us in the technical field. Often, I have found this seems to even stir some ugly competitive thoughts from some men. I have had more trouble with those men than ever with my own sensitities getting in the way….some will go as far as sabotage to look better than the woman who is obviously smarter and better at what she does….often making less money too and having had to work harder for it.

    Sara has to be careful if she wants to be taken seriously, its unfortunate but true.

  35. I believe John James didn’t change his story, I believe John James said that he didn’t tell all the details until asked by the detectives. He said that there will be people who will say he changed his story. I believe you are putting
    words in his mouth. He said he’d take a lie detector test. I knew I’d get in trouble about for the male/female remark but it does strike me. Just being honest.

  36. I don’t believe women are less competent than men. But I believe most men would not act the way Sara R is.

  37. (51) Oldtimer with all due respect adding more details, leaving off details actually does amount to “changing” a story. Doesn’t mean the context was changed and I will accept that was what you meant.

    If lie detector tests were reliable they would be allowed in a court of law. The tests themselves are highly suspect. The fact that someone can put a tack in their shoe and cause intentional pain while questioning will skew results of the questioning.

    BTW that is why they make you takes your shoes off during the test 🙂

  38. oldtimer.

    I have enjoyed my conversations with sara. But if I could give her one peice of advice, it would be to, no matter how bad all the insults are hurting her, to try to be patient and wait for the truth to come out. To, at least act less emotional about it, even if she feels much differently.

    Easier said than done, but I understand your point and that even though you say it…in a controversial way, you have a point.

    Please dont take that the wrong way sara….

  39. ps….I am speaking out of bounds a little bit, I do not know if Sara is even speaking now. I havn’t kept close enough track to this message board in the past day or two to even notice glenn was “lurking”

  40. Leaving out detail does not amount to changing a story if you haven’t been asked all the exact details before. Look you talk like you’ve made up your mind and you’re one-sided. John James was very honest – like someone said, he has nothing to hide. It doesn’t sound like he’s the one who keeps changing his story. Sorry you don’t want an honest opinion. We can agree to disagree, but it sounds like you’re the one who’s not seeing straight.

    I’d better be going before we start arguing too much. That’s not why I’m here.

  41. (53) Oldtimer, I am guessing that someone your comments about the way Sara R is reacting has to do with realibility or emotional stability, etc…

    For the record I would hire women over men for the majority of cases. It is my experience (1000’s of employees) that women are:

    1) Are smarter in dealing with most situations
    2) Take their job much more seriouly
    3) Are focused on the end result and not what matters today
    4) Have better attendance
    5) Bring less issues to the work place
    6) Much better with the details
    7) Are far more reliable

    I think about my grandmother who worked in a shoe factory next to a man doing the same work for the same amount of hours getting paid far less than half what he was getting paid – my grandmother was a single mom it was not easy for them – but I never ever heard her complain nor my parents for that matter.

    Women in the workplace get hung out to try dry too many times and what for…to protect a man…that just isn’t right.

    Just my two cents…

  42. (3) John, thank you vor sharing that. I’m glad that you and Sara R were able to sit down and talk. I wish both of you peace.

  43. (57) Oldtimer, I never said John James wasn’t honest. I think he has answered the questions honestly.

    Don’t start with the leaving out details is ok as long as your not asked about them, come on, next you will be saying it really depends on what your definition of “is” is!

    Why are you harping on this issue with John James? He should be commended for bringing information to LE and SAR. He did the right thing – nothing to be ashamed of there. He stepped up that is more than most people would do. I think I see it very clearly. I certainly agree with you that I disagree with you.

  44. 17 – Rodney, nice summary. I have my hunches and thoughts that 2 and/or 3 sound likely, but cases have been made for all of those options. Thank you for summarizing and laying it out like that for consideration.

  45. I think women are great – better than men in many cases at many things, and can be as competent as men.
    I’ve said my two cents and I’m going. Thank you. Bye.

  46. (61) Maggie, nice job on getting the PR up on your site. I saw the original one and now I need to go through and read it again. Looked like that was a little fun getting that done.

  47. I am a doctor who peforms life saving surgery and medical interventions on a regular basis, I know the joy of life saving intervention and the terrible feelings that come from not being able to save everyone.

    The James Kim case prsented a most difficult, time constrained SAR challenge with many false leads coupled with very distracting early concerns about possible foul play.

    Personally, I think some of the good people involved with the search are beating themselves up unnecessarily.

    As a departmental chairman and senior member of a large public health facility, I often counsel MD’s & other providers over difficult cases.

    If JOCOSAR, John James, or other persons closely associated with the search are having difficultly coping and think talking with me might be helpful, I would be glad to do so. A good mechanism might be to leave a contact number and good time to call via Joe. Alternatively, I don’t mind if he gives out my email address to select individuals for this purpose.

    Tonight I’ve invited my department and a few others over to my house for a low class pot luck and earnest discussion about our recent experiences. Most of these good folks covered and allowed me the 6 weeks away to cope with the crises and the aftermath which looks like it will go on, and on, and on.

  48. 21 – Mapper, so well put. Most of us have all read the same exact articles many times over, and we still have come to some different thoughts or possibilities, some of which may never yield a definite answer. I’ll tell anyone that wants to know (or even if they don’t) what I think and why, but we don’t all have to have the same interpretations. In fact, I like it that we all don’t 🙂

  49. (65) Kati’s Dad…as always you are a stellar example of class while bearing all of this weight. That is a wonderful offer. Wow!

    Also glad to see that you are able to start resuming your normal life activities, IMHO it is that groove that really allows of us to keep our chin up and moving forward.

  50. Why was there concern over foul play?
    Why was it viewed as annoying? Was it that it was felt to be clearly invalid or simply delaying the search?

  51. 64 – Thanks Glenn. Yes, there were a few bumps getting the police report up, but I think we are all set now 🙂

    65 – Kati’s Dad, you really are such a wonderful and caring person. I’m so glad that Kati has someone like you in her corner. You are all still in my thoughts every day.

  52. Glenn/post 33: Welcome back, I did not realize you were “lurking”…I, too, am a WSJ fan, but I would hardly classify their editorial page as unbiased. There financial and news reporting is, for the most part, some of the more objective I have read. Their editorial slant is huge and unmistakable – they and Fox News are twin sons of different mothers, but unlike Fox News, we’re talking about their editorial page, not their news content, so that’s ok.
    You never responded to your mail, I’m not quite sure what to make of that.

  53. Kati’s Dad wrote:
    If JOCOSAR, John James, or other persons closely associated with the search are having difficultly coping and think talking with me might be helpful, I would be glad to do so. A good mechanism might be to leave a contact number and good time to call via Joe.

    This is a really nice offer from Kati’s dad who has been great about sharing some of his experience and insights here.

    If you were closely associated and want to do this please email me your contact information and several good times to call you and I’ll pass that along to Dr. Fleming.

  54. (71) Paul, basically there was nothing more to be said on the subject. It is that simple. 🙂

  55. 73/Glenn: when someone extends an olive branch and you don’t acknowledge it in any way it leaves the impression the recipient isn’t interested in accepting it. If you feel better lumping me in with CW,DH,BH & Pac, so be it. That is so far removed from the truth as to be laughable, but I somehow am feeling like that is what is going on.

  56. Kati’s Dad – with your experience in this area I am wondering if you have any suggestions for guidelines of how we might talk about the details of the investigative reports most constructively. How can something be effectively and constructively critiqued without people feeling there is blame involved?

  57. (74) Paul, really get over it. Olive branch accepted. Can we sit around the fireplace and sing Kumbaya? Seriously though you are taking this somewhere were none of us have to go.

    I am going back to putting my tinfoil hat on.

  58. (75) Oldtimer you definitely rang a tone loud and clear there…yes exactly we should all try to talk about this in the spirit of helping, improving and definitely NOT blaming.

    I am very happy to say that I agree with you and would love to hear everybody’s suggestions on that question.

  59. How can something be effectively and constructively critiqued without people feeling there is blame involved?

    This is an excellent question everybody should ponder.

    Also a good time to remind people that it’s great to discuss facts / ideas / procedures here. Avoid insults and personal attacks.


  60. Foul play–early on no one of course had any idea what had gone wrong, all kinds of theories were emerging. There was thought to be some irregular credit card activity that really fueled the fire. At one point we were called and told many leads were coming in and then asked what clothes the children would have been wearing. That was very painful.

    I find it hard to really describe the depth of our despair, especially before the girls were found safe. We had a lot of nightmares. One night I awoke expecting to go to the gallows to be hanged. On the day the girls were discovered, I actually woke up thinking in cynical disgust, oh how nice now to transition from my sleep getaway back into a real nightmare. I’m only occasionally drink alcohol and then in only in careful moderation, but I sure developed an eye for Wild Turkey liquor on the store shelves. I tired a little but it was of no help.

    Let me add, I think all the inquiry was appropriate given the urgency to find them and I sure would do not want my comments to seed a feast for critics. And I really know very little beyond what I’ve said on the subject of foul play.

  61. 82. Kati’s dad, it sounds like you could write a book.

    And nightmares are bad enough when they are just in your sleep.

  62. Glenn, glad to see you back as yourself, didn’t know you were “Lurker”, either. Wondered where you were!

    Kati’s Dad, you and your family are amazing, and you have exhibited nothing but class and integrity throughout our discussions here.

  63. (80),(81), Kati’s Dad, Maggie…

    Yes I am quite stunned at the realization of just how deep the well of disparity was.

    Kati’s Dad your description really shaped the depth and frightening aspect of the reality of being a parent. We all worry about our children but to go days like that and with all of the attention it must have really amplified everything.

    Thanks for continuing to share your inner self it is rare to see the openness. I hope we all try to learn something from all of this.

    Not a big drinker myself but I could see how Wild Turkey could definitely be a required item during all of this.

  64. It seems once again a poster with a different point of view has been driven off this forum. Sorry Oldtimer, I think it’s a shame. Not saying I agree with everyone who posts, but I do feel that as long as they are not abusive, profane or overly aggressive, they should feel welcome to post their thoughts. That has not necessarily been the case here. When someone posts a thought not in keeping with the opinions of certain posters here, they are hard hit and driven away. I have personally felt cautious about what I post, lest I be in disagreement with someone and be driven off, as well. Dr Fleming had a point with his comment about the degeneration of this forum. I am glad to see he has returned despite that observation.

    NO ONE has all the facts in this case, and it may be no one never will but the people directly involved and then only in their area of participation. The media articles and reports can be picked apart, turned every which way but loose, and many suppositions can be made, but NO ONE knows ALL the facts. It may be that no one person ever will.

    There are many very talented, intelligent, deep thinking individuals here, many with life experience who could contribute greatly toward improvements in all aspects that may have fallen short in the Kim’s case and help prevent this from happening again. I hope this does happen and in a more constructive manner.

    This has been my first and only experience with a blog, and probably my last. In any case, I am leaving. To SAR and the LE involved, I sincerely say thank you for all you do. Thank you Joe Duck, for this site and allowing me to post here. My best to you, as well. And I wish all the very best for the Kim family. I am so glad that Kati, Penelope and Sabine are warm and safe, and I will keep them in my prayers for healing from their experience and loss.

    I wish everyone here all the best.

    Now, talk amongst yourselves…

    ‘bye all

  65. Gayle…I agreed with Oldtimer…and tried not to offend Sara or anyone else in the way I said it. It IS a touchy subject.

    I didn’t agree with the way he said it, but I agreed with the gist of his point.

    I’m surprised you feel this way, and hope you stick around. I think Oldtimer didn’t really want to stay…

  66. 75 I answered this once, but then I guess I dosed off and lost it, rats. I was up a good bit of the night in the hospital.

    Communicate, communicate. Person to person is the best, email and other electronic means of quick expression often leads to misperceptions because one does not have the facial, body component that so often assists in interpretation of another’s meaning. I say when angered write out the response in rage on a separate document then allow some time for cooling reconsideration before posting. I’ve had to do that thrice regarding events relatinng to this case, but not on this forum. In medicine when we do morbidity or mortality rounds, we often think in terms of our fallability, “but for the grace of God go I” since we all have bad cases from time to time.

    We have an outstanding example of healing communication in post 3 above. The John’s communication really struck a chord with me and prompted me to communicate as I have done today.

    “I do know that I met with an intelligent and engaging woman who is so torn and devastated by all this that she is physically ill.”

  67. Hi all,
    Just checked here to make sure I wasn’t crazy while BLOGGING myself last night. Couldn’t sleep after meeting Sara as that poor lady is in dire straights.
    Joe Duck,
    Kati’s Dad offered to communicate directly and I would appreciate you providing him my e-mail that you have.
    I have to repeat that I feel all I have said has been consistent.
    I did make a personal decision to not share everything, as that is a right we have as humans and I excercised that as a judgement call.
    When the time came that OSSA was going to do their investigation and they contacted me at that point I had to provide full disclosure to them.
    On another note my position of defending the media comes from a personal tragedy 8 years ago when my father-in-law was abducted by a couple of youth and murdered and his body dumped in a remote area.
    The media jumped on the missing persons story and I know that without them and the great folks from Jo Co Search and Rescue, he probably wouldn’t have been found and the murderers would walked away to offend again.I feel that quick response to the media brings forth public input that can resolve an emergency.
    I do also know the media or should I say individuals within it can be unscrupulous.
    I think we are better off having the media than without them

  68. Just a saide bar here. I really don’t have time to be here as I am in the middle of building a shop for my JUNK but I came in to thaw out. It is snowing like a BIG DOG here

  69. (86) Gayle,

    Sorry to see you go. You have been here since the beginning. Hope you reconsider.

    In regard to Oldtimer – I thought the post about female versus male were offensive so I responded. He also said we were putting words into John James mouth – I disagreed.

    He said he didn’t want to argue but placed comments that begged for argument. That is the nature of a blog and quite frankly the beauty. Can you imagine all of us in a room talking like this? There would be yelling, fights, etc…it would be crazy however the blog is a platform that facilitates highly charged subjects into discussions which in the end produce a lot of value. I guess you have to take the good with the bad and everybody has good and bad to share.

    Referring to Oldtimer’s post (40) he said if Sara R. can’t take the public scrutiny… well the same goes for blog territory. Whether we like the tone or not blogs are really changing things. Gayle this blog is MILD compared to most when discussing an emotionally charged subject.

    In a way you have had a rare opportunity to witness this here but it has also given you a benchmark now that I think few blogs can measure up to. So I hope you continue to post and share – we are subject to people’s comments based on what we say after all we wouldn’t want to just be sheeple! (That was for you Paul since that is one of your favorites)

    But I understand needing a break. We all do and will at some point here. Looking forward to your return.

  70. 90 – John, thank you for your clarification.

    As has been mentioned pages back, the media really can be a double-edged sword.

    If not for all of the media attention, where would you or John Rachor or Eric Fuqua have been in all of this. Probably just doing your thing not knowing that you could be helpful somehow.

    I still don’t feel like I have the whole story from the media, and I’m not sure how accurate or not everything has been reported (hoping the OSSA report will help for me to decide), but I’m glad that they did get the word out that there was a family in need of help.

  71. Just apersonal note in response to some thoughts about Gating off roads. This applies to roads in all areas on public lands.
    Don’t surrender your rights to access. That is a slippery slope that we don’t want to go down
    In my decades of life here in this area there have only been two cases of loss of life on that road system that I am aware of.
    I realize that two is too many but sometimes sh** happens.

  72. (90) John, thanks again for sharing. It really helps a lot. I fully understand and appreciate your comments about sharing details – I agree with you – I think you exercised the correct judgement.

    You are absolutely correct about the early hours of an event and just how critical it is to get the media involved.

    We are most definitely better with the media than without regardless of how biased they are. I couldn’t imagine a world without it!

  73. (96) John hear that loud and clear. We do live in a free country and we should always fight to protect our rights or you are right – people that don’t have a clue will take them away!

    I think gating can work if it is a drive around gate with a warning sign. I am sure someone will still go there but at least we haven’t punished the many for the benefit of the few.

    Something has to be done otherwise you would have never painted on those roads.

  74. (90) John sorry to hear about your family loss. We had a close family friend who was murdered in her driveway while her husband watched by someone who was stalking her.

    The media played a major role in moving the case along and the perp was finally apprehended.

  75. Sorry that I can’t address questions with a reference to their post. I find that this blog is sort of like a huge tapeworm it is easy to find the beggining and the end but all the stuff in the middle becomes a mass of convoluted lines

  76. 96 – John, I agree 100%. Somewhere (maybe the half gate mentioned quite a bit) there is a happy medium where those who want to can take full advantage of the beauty and all the area has to offer, but those who don’t know better will have some warning to make them aware. I’m never for completely closing people off from “dangerous” places when it’s not necessary – people just need to know what choice they are making headed in.

  77. 86/So, Oldtimer is being driven off for having an atttitude that belongs in the 1950’s? Get over it, women and men can do the same jobs. Wow, revelation, call the press! He just hasn’t gotten the memo.

    Personally when I’ve posted I have not felt threatened in the least, and I was hoping to get someone riled up in a difference of opinion. How could someone be driven off? It’s a dang comment thread! Fire back! If you don’t feel like firing back, don’t say anything, it will blow over in a few hours anyway. It’s how this whole thing works.

  78. One thing about the signage up there. To me it is very clear but I know the area.
    Rest assured that the BLM engineer has plans to completely redo it even without spencers letter or pressure from SEN. Feinstein

  79. (102) Rocket demonstrates the efficiency and reality of the comment thread. Gayle no offense but Rocket’s response is classic and really how this whole thing works. Spot on Rocket!

  80. (103) John, I think the attention by Senator Feinstein is a mistake and is just grandstanding. After all Pelosi has trumped her now.

    In any event, I think BLM really does have their act together and I am impressed overall with their process and response.

  81. Maggie,
    \You are right
    I remember when I was younger and maybe less responsible LOL.
    I used to ski a ton at Mt. Bachelor. I remember that the best skiing was of course off the highest chair and out of bound. You literally had to ski past a sign that said something like, “you are about to go out of theboundaries of the ski area, if you get lost and need rescued you will be billed $50,000 per hour to come recover you”.
    I of course threw a snowball at the sign each and every time I skied past it (thought I was pretty funny)

  82. Rocket, I agree, differing opinions is what finds solutions. State the opinion, get ready to make the case, or be enlightened and learn. what a great way to solve some of these issues!

  83. I didn’t get the idea that Oldtimer actually meant to say that “men are better than women” but just used a poor choice of words. Just my impression when reading through the comments. I could be wrong.

    Anyway, I don’t want anyone to go away. This place really is quite tame compared to most, as others have said.

    John, I’ll be glad to see new signs!

  84. 106 – LOL, John 🙂 At least you were adequately warned, even if you were young and bold enough not to care (been there!).

  85. (106) John…but you knew the area and I think that is the whole point. We should all be responsible for our own actions as long as we understand what we are getting ourselves into.

    If we don’t understand that and when something happens I think it is wise to show extra compassion and understanding toward the person(s) but I think I also think you should show compassion no matter how someone ended up where they did but you could say…well he knew what he was doing, etc. – like the recent Mount Hood situation. Terrible shame what happened but all three knew exactly what they were getting into.

  86. Back to signage again, The road engineer indicated to me they would also enjoy volunteers to help place the signage in a weekend work crew fashion.
    This might be a viable option to donating greenbacks since when we donate labor we know where it goes

  87. Mggie.
    Is “BOLD” a PC term for clueless LOL. That was me for sure.
    But I gotta admit I was happy and learned a lot about myself and the out of doors

  88. Rocket 102, I assure you that people are “driven off” of this board. The only open comment board is the one on the Mountain Tribune. The rest are censored. I assume this is to “protect the children.” You can’t have anyone running around and telling the truth, such as “James and Kati Kim were probably nice enough people, but they were fools to drive up a dangerous mountain road in a snowstorm in the middle of the night.”

    (a portion of this comment was deleted by Joe Duck)

  89. 110 – Glenn, I agree. Needing to know what you are getting into is key! Beyond that, if someone does go anyway, I do feel it fair for folks like SAR to be compassionate and try just as hard. Now, once the person is safely rescued, alive and well, then I hope that their mom sits down and has a little chat with them about common sense – but that’s later. 😉

  90. 102.

    I’m sorry. I’m not doing my part. Would you like to discuss the shapefile vs. the geodatabase? The .axl over the .mxd in terms of IMS? GeoMedia vs. ArcMap? Google Earth….. ? 🙂

    I have been trying to censor myself so Joe never has to (though I know I may walk the line at times). So I am surprised Gayle. I like you. Of course I feel the reality is more like what Rocket says.

    And, its not like we all got together to agree on stuff. I’m surprised there is majority thinking here, but there is sometimes, and we are all strangers.

    As I have admitted before, I would be stricter in terms of moderating people than Joe is. The fact that alot of us may agree that a poster is abusive, is, at times an effect of Joe’s supreme tolerance. They are allowed to stay and are eventually called on it.

    This time, Oldtimer kinda came out with the guns firing…and he knew it.

    In my experience, this blog/forum has been the MOST intelligent and the distractions are minimal (by abuse)

  91. People are not censored here unless they are consistently rude or beligerent to others (in general, just acting troll-like). Most of us are glad that Joe is as fair as he is to put up with a certain ration and then know when to pull the plug.

  92. You guys are scaring. I have never, ever, ever read or commented on a blog prior to hanging with you guys. If other blogs are really harsh I am glad to steer clear

  93. My toes have thawed. Back to the grind in the frigid valleys of good ol’ southern Oregon.
    Best to all

  94. (119) John have you ever engaged in a conversation about religion or politics? How long does it take? People have very strong feelings about things.

    Some of it is scary but this kind of stuff is evolving and actually improving communication.

    Look at what is happening…Tara invited you…you came…as a result you ended up meeting with Sara R., etc…you have gotten different perspectives, you can speak your mind…people can speak theirs.

    I think the whole thing is amazing and in the end I think you will agree something positive will come out of this.

  95. Joe Duck,
    Is there a way to put a time stamp to go with the threads it would help me with the flow of the subject so i could keep up. ?????????

  96. (122) John oh no!!!…LOL

    That was attempted before and was worse than the Titanic incident. The board went into lala land.

    But you are right it would be nice…but the cure is worse than the disease.

    Try to keep warm out there.

  97. John,

    I think you stepped in at a particularly emotional moment. I think most of us are total cream puffs. I think it may be hard for new comers to see that we are defending against….certain people that just walked into this virtual room. And the other stuff, well I can’t really speak of that.

    In fact when I say “we” I am not referring to anything except what seems to be general consensus among total strangers over a period of time. I have found most people here to be decent and kind.

  98. Backpedaling, Backpedaling , Backpedaling, on my part. Didn’t mean to imply you guys were over critical. In fact I have found you folks mostly gracious and intelligent.
    I have learned and the site helped facilitate some growth between Sara and I.

  99. 129. Rocket

    I know. Thats why I keep saying I mean to suggest some things about the ODOT map in the suggestion area here…but…yeah I hear you. That sounds like work and homework

    I guess you might have to settle for things being generally mild here!

    The business….well, it depends how you look at it…strictly gis, about 5 years. (that sounds way too long though, I am getting old)

  100. 131/ This is really a big issue to tackle, and if we tackle it successfully, what other issues have we forgotten?

    Is there an official suggestion area?

    I’ve been in the “business” way too long, pushing 14 years. Ouch

  101. 133. Oh my God, in GIS years your pretty much elderly.

    Okay, are you referring to the ODOT Map? I think if you go to the top of the page, you can find some direction, to get to the page Joe has creted specifically for suggestions.

  102. 80/Kati’s dad: We “lost” our daughter – then 3 – at the coast once for about 30 minutes. She loved to hide silently from us and thought it was a game – she was there one second, gone the next, and we were right there. It was at a state park with lots of people, so the scary thought of abduction was in our minds. She was within yards of us the whole time, hiding in heavy brambles where only a child could go. When I think about how unspeakably horrible I felt then, -the desperation, the fear, the anguish, and I read your words about your daughter and grandchildren, it breaks my heart and I cannot fathom how you held up as you did. You are generous to come here and share your feelings and insights with us, we thank you often, but we cannot thank you enough.

  103. Yikes – I went to walk the dog and we’ve got people leaving! Due to some of the problem comments from a few days ago I don’t like to say when I’m leaving because that may encourage people to “sneak in insults”, but suffice it to say I’ve got a lot going on right now and I’m only here a few hours a day.

    PLEASE follow Dr. Fleming’s excellent advice above and review before you post.

    Hey, do you do blog *house calls* Doctor?

  104. (135) Pac well I….

    Oh I have followed Dr. Fleming’s excellent advice and now I have nothing to say to Pac. LOL.

    How much do I owe you doc? Thanks.

  105. Hey folks – I just want to say no offense taken. I’m just not the type to want to get in any blog bashing. I’m too old, I know better!

    Everyone has their opinions. It’s good to talk about them. It’s best to keep them civil.

    Maggie, you were right – I wasn’t saying that men are better than women. It’s just about handling what’s likely to come your way in the line of duty. Especially in LE or the military.

    I helped clear the Nazis out of their concentration camps and clean them up too. I won’t go into details – believe me, you don’t want to hear them.

    It’s a matter of perspective. Hard things come your way. You’ve got to handle them. It’s always possible.

    Gayle, I hope you didn’t leave on my account.

    I just can’t keep up and don’t have it in me to argue. I don’t like all the negativity.

    I might be in and out, as I see fit.

    I think you’re a good group. I hope you get a lot done. This story inspired a lot of people.

    Don’t feed the trolls. LOL

  106. What’d I tell you? joeduck doesn’t want the truth posted here. None of you do. You’re too wonderful.

  107. 113/135/143: PacNWer: Sorry, we won’t play anymore. I’m sure you’ll be welcome at the other sandbox, you’ve a very sympathetic audience there.
    Glenn – Levity works wonders, whenever he shows up I have a vision of Jack Nicholson’s twisted face and that classic “Here’s Johnny” line….Redrum, Redrum, Redrum.

  108. 86 – Gayle: I do hope you’ll come back, we appreciate your involvement & contributions. Dissent is a good and powerful thing and a force for change. The fact that you feel as you do is all the more reason you should stay. We all get emotional, these are emotionally charged topics, but I agree with the comment that relative to other sites I have lurked at, J.D. is largely a model of polite civility. It does not mean we cannot do better, but the absence of your voice will make that process harder, not easier.
    141 – Old Timer: welcome back, I am glad you decided to drop back in. Anybody who has had the life experience you have had, especially that of cleaning out concentration camps and struggling through that darkest of times in our history is someone whose wisdom and insighs I want to hear. I didn’t agree with everything you said in your 1st post, but I’ll fight fiercely for your right to say it.

  109. Oldtimer

    I agree with Paul, in that your life experience makes me want to hear more from you. And my opinion, may differ from others (and I am a woman) you can say whatever you want at that age!

    I honestly was not offended by what you wrote. I think it is silly to pretend that those attitudes are not out there, and people like Sara, and myself need to be aware that we will be judged more harshly if we are too emotional (publicly) when we are under scrutiny.

    Funny thing is, when I was working for the military, the people were GREAT. It was another consultant (male) who had issues…and he would try to get me to react.

  110. 147/Mapper: You make a great point. You hear various minority groups say all the time that various predjudices are a reality and that, unfair as it is, you’re better off to be aware of them than not – and that you have to hold yourself to a higher standard BECAUSE those attitudes are out there.

  111. 😀 Attention 😀

    Blog vs Forum vs Freedom of speech items.

    Normally blogs do not have this type of “conversation” and many comments that are “off topic” (not related to the blog post “article”) are deleted by the blogger. Commenters who don’t follow the rules several times in a row are usually banned.

    Here we are using the blog in an unusual way – as a discussion forum for the Kim Story. This has worked much better than I thought it would. Almost all the feedback I got earlier asked me to keep it this way.

    In the interest of free speech and also not spending my life editing other folks, I’ve tried to be very lenient. I did tighten things up a few pages ago and started deleting some abusive and offensive comments. That will continue.

    If you do insults or even “name calling” you may be deleted eventually. If you respond to somebody who is name calling you also may be deleted.

    However I really expect people to IGNORE those who are trying to rile things up using insults or disparagements.


  112. I hate it when I am late reading the blog and come across a pile of deletions. Often there is no explanation of why. Like Gayle this is my first blogging experience. I’m amazed at it’s power and depth, largely attributable I think to the diversity and interest of the many participants here.

    But I do not like *gates* !! Joe, rather than censoring by deletion why not move any so called off the wall ‘offensive’ post to a special archive page so it are available to a reader if HE/SHE chooses? The “moved” post could be referenced by a link to that archive page.

  113. 151 -Joe/Kip: I have an alternate suggestion, why don’t you e-mail Kip one of the deletions and see if he still feels that way? Personally, I think your few and far between deletions have been timely and well-deserved, esp considering some of the key players who come here to share their thoughts and insights.

  114. Hey all, I wrote Jeff Barnard of the AP, who wrote the story here:

    I asked about the implication that Kati stated they knowingly took the right fork, not knowing where it went. (See earlier discussion on this page of comments.)

    From his reply, it is clear to me that she made no such statement (at least to his knowledge).

    I have asked him if I can quote the e-mail here. If he agrees, I will post the pertinent parts.

    So anyway, after seeing his reply, I can personally 100% discount his story as any evidence that they knowingly took the right fork without knowing where it went.

  115. Gated access: I too would want gates kept to a minimum. Archeology sites in rural areas might be gated if otherwise prone to vandalism. Extreme risk areas such as excavations or repairs in progress might be gated. Otherwise signage should be sufficient. Its simply that signs must be visible and well-worded.

    Outback Mentality: Those who enter the Australian ‘Outback’ must develop a survival awareness even if they are simply tourists in an RV. There have been cases were tourists lacked survival sklls: not knowing how much water had to be carried, not knowing how far someone can travel on foot by day and by night, not knowing that letting air out of the tires for better tractions out of deep sand means letting a lot of air out of the tires. Oregon is not the Australian Outback, but some areas seem to require a similar Mental Transition. Vehicle and people have to ‘survial mode prepped’ by signage. It doesn’t seem to be required in very many areas of Oregon, but it sure seems to be needed in the area of Bear Camp Road which is mapped as a ‘route to the coast’ but clearly can turn into a route to the middle of nowhere without much indication of just where the change takes place.

  116. [152] — Paul, I’m interested in anything and everything “I think” worthwhile relating to the events and human personalities involved in this tragic story.

    Frankly I did see 2 recent posts that I felt would very soon disappear. I saved them before they did. IMO there are some truths in what was said.

  117. 153/Rodney G: great work, Detective G, excellent find on a crucial element of the story. The facts just keep getting re-written with each new development.

  118. 155/Kip: I defer to the greater wisdom of his honor, Judge Joe. 🙂 I meant no disrespect, I just find that posts laden with so much vitriol, poison and name calling, whatever truths they may contain are more than offset by their intent to disrupt and create mayhem, IMO. Joe has exercised an incredibly light hand.

  119. 153 – Good job, Rodney for taking the initiative to find out! I always seem to forget that reports usually include their email addresses at the bottom of their articles. I hope that you will be able to post the response.

    What did you mean by feeling certain now that they didn’t “knowingly took the right fork without knowing where it went” – do you mean that they took it thinking they were still headed on the “correct” path to the coast? (sorry, didn’t have a chance to go back and read the article…)

  120. RodneyG Great! After reading the article, that is what I thought. It’s nice to get confirmation of it.

  121. [158] — Paul, it’s a matter what one focuses on. I’m looking for pearls …it seems to me you’re looking at the muck.

  122. Kip RE: deleted expletives vs deleted wisdom vs ?.

    Kip I’m sympathetic to what you are saying, and it’s an interesting idea to maybe move the small number of deleted comments that I decided were inappropriate to a sheltered area. I’m thinking about how that might work.

    This is it’s own big discussion and has no clear answers so I’m open to alternatives. One major problem when you do *not* do much censoring of insults is that people get offended or fearful of comments and leave, don’t participate, or join in with the insults and the conversation quickly degrades to nonsense. For a funny example of that check out how the *content guidelines discussion itself* over at the The thread wound up with people hurling insults!

    Part of the problem here has been that several of the more experienced online people like to “feed the trolls”, throwing insults back at those who are looking to pick a fight. People vary in how they react to this – it upsets some and others love to watch it or play that game.

    Also, some deletion is out of my personal respect for the Kim Family, the SAR and LE folks and many others who worked on this extraordinary case. With few exceptions they have already endured far more than a reasonable dose of criticism *in addition* to many weeks of personal anguish. I admit I’d like to “bias” this discussion in favor of examining solutions to the many challenges that came up in the Kim story rather than criticizing individuals.

  123. 162 – Joe, thank you for your fair stand on the trolls. I appreciate the balance that you show. There’s a fine line in my opinion between someone perhaps saying something a little rudely on occassion vs. actually being a troll consistently going out of their way to try to stir the pot, and I think you usually nail it pretty darn well. I do understand people wanting to know what they might have missed either for entertainment or to genuinely see any good points that may have been included along with the garbage, but to even put those comments on some other page still gives trolls more attention than they deserve since if they are not fed any attention at all, they will eventually starve and either go away or come back and be play nice. Still, if it could be done, at least it could be “contained” somewhere else.

    If only there was a way that the trolls and those who would like to hear what they have to say could email each other… Not realistic, but it would be nice. I get the feeling that it wouldn’t really be as much fun for the trolls, then, though because it misses the point of getting people all riled up.

    Anyway, just adding my opinion and voicing my appreciation for the stand that you have taken.

  124. [162] — Joe… The understanding and kind and tolerant tone YOU set is a very big reason why I am spending so much time here with your blog.

  125. 162. JD said, “Kip I’m sympathetic to what you are saying, and it’s an interesting idea to maybe move the small number of deleted comments that I decided were inappropriate to a sheltered area. I’m thinking about how that might work.”

    It would be like looking in your junk mail folder when you get a notification from Outlook. Even though I know it’s just going to be more junk, I can’t keep myself from going there to look. Duh.

    I have mixed feelings about censoring, but I have seen some pretty caustic posts here, especially when the fur starts flying. You seem to be finding a good balance.
    I do like Kip’s idea of just moving those posts, however. Then it would be up to us the readers if we want to read what you consider to be crossing the line. But please, no expletives.

  126. RE: Route – not sure if everyone caught this yesterday, or even if it is that important, but until then I was unaware that Tu Tu Tun lodge is 6 or more miles UP the Rogue River from Gold Beach. It is only relevant in that it provides one more credible reason why they might have deemed Bear Camp an efficient route for where they were ultimately heading.

  127. I’m sorry, but just in defense of some of us…..I think you have to admit there are some people that, no matter how much you ignore them, they keep coming back. And when they insult family members of Kati, it has at times been too much to take (or detectives, etc). I am never going to be able to be a model of appropriateness. In fact I’m starting to think some of my posts look a bit hokey, must be all those smileys. I need to learn how to do the one with the sunglasses.

    Sometimes it is easy to ignore them, other times it hasn’t been. And talking about the liklihood of cw being pw, was too irresistible for most of us to take, for awhile. Please forgive us.

    But, I am still reminded of the ancient SNL skit with the shark at the door….delivery, delivery….

    I’m not convinved ignorning does the trick, but luckily I had been bored into submission and had been ignoring for awhile (well that and I dont want to get kicked out….)

    I’m sorry that this is taking so much of your time joe, and hopefully the warnings are enough to keep you from editing all day and night.

  128. Thanks for the nice words everybody. I’ve been blogging regularly for over a year but have never faced these issues.

    RE: Deletions –
    I want to be clear here – we are NOT talking about many deleted comments out of over 8000. I’ve tried to summarize the censor activity below. Note that if a writer asks me to remove their own comment I do that.

    There was several short deletions several days ago that were inappropriately talking about the identity of another person.

    The long “Fitzwater” rant I deleted yesterday against Charles Wilson appeared to have no basis in anything (some thought it may have been auto-generated from a program) and I had no feedback from “Fitzwater” except a short insult which was also deleted. His comment email address was bogus.

    PacNWer’s views are hardly hidden at this blog though he was asked not to post here a few days ago because I felt he could not constrain the insulting tone. I agree with PacNWer that in his case I have not done an ideal job. I threw out a *small amount* of his commentary on perhaps a total of 5 or so of his comments because I decided I did not want to take the time to edit out the insulting stuff line by line, and also thought it might be misleading if I edited somebody that extensively.

    Charles Wilson was asked to temper what I thought was an inquisitional tone he took with others. I had reason to believe he was chilling the dialog here, which has been very cordial for the most part and I think that civil and welcoming tone is the reason we’ve heard from so many interesting people.

    Both Charles and PacNWer are good writers and could choose a tone that would be acceptable here.

    Keep in mind that perhaps the worst problem is that some people will decide not to participate because they don’t want to be criticized for their views. I will not exercise much control over basic criticisms – rather it’s up to those here to respect the views of others.

    I’m wondering about the idea that springs from several comments above. I could create a mailing list and would then send deleted comments to those on that list.

    Hmm – another idea springs to mind which would be a separate “hall of shame” for blog comments from all over the place. This area would be censorship free.

  129. 171 – Joe, perfect! A mailing list (sounds so simple, but I couldn’t quite bridge the gap on that thought) of the deletions sounds like a great idea to me.

  130. Hey Joe, I like that idea of a Hall of Shame….. Then you can look or not. 😉
    Trust me Joe has not had to deleate much at all, you should have seen the Blog over at C-net when they were first lost…. Turned your stomach the amount of HATE that was spewed over there by a bunch of racist folks, I felt sorry for the person who had the deleate button job.

  131. the hall of shame sounds funny to me. But, probably wouldn’t be appropriate…but its still funny…. not sure.

  132. 168/Kip: thx for the link…the visual of it drives the point home. Theoretical story here: I’m from out of state, I am going to Tu Tu Tun, and I see 3 routes on a map that take me there. One involves a warning about being closed in winter, but it being late November, and being unfamiliar with the route, one might reasonably conclude it might still be open. Hwy 42, from a visual perspective, appears to wind circuitously through the coast range before dumping me in Bandon, many many miles North up the coast from Gold Beach. Hwy 199 takes me all the way down to Crescent City, again many many miles South of Gold Beach. The 3rd route, although not a highway, not only takes me seemingly straight to Gold Beach, but goes right to my ultimate destination – 6+ miles East of Gold Beach.

  133. 171- I like the idea of a hall of shame….yet i am afraid it would encourage people to continue their behavior….Ya know doing it just to get into the “Hall of Shame”…I might be like a game for some

  134. 175 & 168 Kip/Paul

    This has been my thinking all along. It looks like the quickest way to get to a good night’s sleep. Add to that the missing of the exit for route 42, if that is true.

    153 – RodneyG I’m looking forward to Jeff Bernard’s response.

  135. I do like the “hall of shame” idea as well, but I just wonder if that will only encourage people to try that much harder to win that “honor.” OK, OK, now don’t anyone get mad at me, I’m just putting that out there… Whatever keeps them from being distracting and lowering the integrity here works for me.

    Kip and Paul, thank you for the map link for the Tu Tu Tun (that’s hard to type) and the discussion with it. Even in this many pages and weeks I hadn’t even considered that. Interesting.

  136. 171/Joe: I will defer to the majority, being ambivalent on the alternatives. More pressing is which alter-ego most appropriately fits Joe: the hustling referree in the striped shirt, whistling bloggers for offensive & defensive fouls, taunting, face-masking, occassionaly throwing players from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct, and awarding most-valuable-player awards to level headed peace keepers? (ADK)…or Judge Joe, solemnly stepping in to keep the peace, wisely and with restraint adjudicating the incessant squabling and dispensing appropriate sentences to offenders found guilty of violations, including banishing them in extreme instances to cyber halls of shame? 🙂

  137. Ok, I have a question for LE, SAR, Family ect. When this first happened, I think as early as thursday or friday I made a couple of posts over at C-net suggesting that they notify all the logging companies, log truck drivers ect to be watching for the family, also to offer a reward.

    We used to live in Myrtle Creek, and I know that this time of year there are alot of loggers sitting at home, but the thought of a nice big fat reward, and a great Christmas for their families would maybe motivate folks to go out looking, or for those still working in the woods to take a walk around during lunch instead of taking a nap, drive down an extra sprur road ect. So was this type of thing ever discussed? What was the reason for not offering a reward, were you afraid of more people getting lost? more false tips?

    To my way of thinking these are folks who know alot of these woods like the back of their hands, I know of a couple I could have seen taking their horses out…. Seems like the reward could have been a motivation that would have gotten alot of people up off the couch almost an invitation to help.


  138. 178/Maggie: I must give credit where credit is due, it was Orygungirls compelling narrative of yesterday that refocused me on the maps, and then paulj alluding mistakenly to Tu Tu Tun being in Agness that got me looking at where TTT really is, and it just made OryG’s case all the more compelling.

  139. Hall of Shame sounds to me like an idea worthy of at least a trial run.

    There is no question that I was induced to participate some on this blog because I sensed a strong sense of good will with the majority of participants.

  140. Thank you, Paul. I do kind of remember that from my speed reading last night now that you mention it. Still, glad it came back up because it is interesting. Another reason why the road either shouldn’t be on the map or needs way better clarification. I did notice in some of the Oregon tourism brochures that I’ve collected over time that this route is not even drawn on any of their maps.

    Kati’s Dad, I’m glad that you are here, and I hope that whatever the solution that we keep things rolling in the right direction.

  141. Jeff Barnard of the AP has denied my request to quote him here. I am going to type up a further explanation of my earlier comments, but I want to be careful with the language so I can accurately state what we know.

  142. 185/RG – Did he offer a reason? I was anxious to read that, look forward to your further explanation.

  143. Jeff Barnard of the AP has denied my request to quote him here

    Thanks for trying Rodney – and invite Jeff to drop on in and quote himself, himself!

    My favorite thing about this environment is that it is a two-way (or more) communication platform. Most news distribution is a strictly a one-way environment and that’s one of the many reasons online news and blogs are having such a big impact.

  144. I have thought about this question for several days, as a grandfather of three (infant,6 yrs,12yrs). The question may be silly or not, but it is human:

    How do you take care of an infant and a four year old inside a car in 40 deg, rainy, late Fall weather for 9-10 days? ….and not know when the final day of being stranded arrives.

    I understand how the two small ones are fed, plus the suitcases are packed for a weekend trip, but what about spending the rest of the time? What is the biggest challenge?

  145. You have biased your discussion toward happy talk and mutual admiration. Every other forum where this has been discussed to any degree has come down heavily against the Kims. You can’t handle that, joeduck, so you block comments from anyone who differs from your line.

    Your rules against invective and insults are one-sided; those who differ from your line are insulted at will. When they answer the insults they are blocked. All of this is because you cannot bear to consider the truth, which is that James Kim is dead because of his and his wife’s recklessness.

    (last part deleted by Joe)

  146. Jeff Barnard of the AP wrote:
    Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.

    Due to the language of that paragraph, and the language of the preceding paragraphs in the story, some have interpreted that the paragraph above was written based on statements made by Kati Kim (to “searchers” as the story calls them).

    After reading Barnard’s reply to my inquiry, I can say with quite a bit of certainty that the quoted paragraph above was *not* based on any statement by Kati Kim.

    I think that’s as clear as I can make it, and as fairly as I can state it.

    We still don’t know if they knew the left fork was the coast, or even if they knew there *was* a left fork. It still stands at the 3 scenarios I listed in comment #17. As far as I’m concerned (and I may be all wet), the AP story has simply been removed as evidence of scenario #1 in my comment #17.

  147. Fear, boredom, bitter cold, hunger, thirst, restlessness, lack of tp, panic, despair, providing comfort & reassurance, lack of patience, lack of sleep, more fear…it boggles the mind to think of it.

  148. Would love it if John Rachor dropped in here. He’s a person deserving huge credit yet have seldomly seen his name mentioned in the media reports.

  149. 188 How do you take care of an infant and a four year old inside a car

    I read somewhere, maybe something Kati’s dad wrote, that James pretended with Penelope that they were camping, and even read them bedtime stories at night just like at home.

    Just as a mom, I’l bet the girls slept alot….. Bored, hungry ect.


  150. Ok, what am I doing wrong with the quotes?????

    togather at the begining and end of quote (without the spaces) correct???

  151. (161) Kip did you see all those pearls of wisdom in post (190) please do share them with us…because I can’t see any. Kip not picking on you but post (190) is a perfect example of what should NOT be in this discussuon.

    Now Pac thinks the State of CA should investigate Kati Kim.

    How can anybody think what Pac has to say is worth anything? He has been beating the same drum each time he posts. It is old, tired, and just not worth anyone’s time.

    The whole idea of the censored mailing list or hall of shame just reminds of people that want to rubber neck as they pass a train wreck.

    It is Joe Duck’s blog and he should do what he wants here – he sets the tone, etc. I think it is admirable that he takes in so much input but frankly he has enough to deal with in RL, family, this blog, all the issues, etc. Joe you always seem to go way beyond the call.

  152. (194) Kip I love it! I didn’t read that before my (200) on your (161) in regard to Pac (190). 🙂

  153. (195) Kip we have been trying. Tara is the herder…we find em and she ropes em…then they post. 🙂

    It would be great to hear from him.

  154. Maybe Joe should somehow highlight the “Hall of Shame”-type posts in red (the color the face of the person making the post ought to be), and leave them on the regular page so we can read around them, if desired. Less work for him, I’d think.

    Since the name of the abuser doesn’t appear until after the post, it would save us from having to read any of the offensive material should we choose not to; the red type would serve as a warning that we are about to enter Troll Territory.

  155. 181- regarding a reward that might have motivated some loggers to search:
    – volunteers helped a lot in this case. There was a patron at Denny’s who remembered a family that looked like the Kims, the EDGE technician who tracked down the phone pings, the lodge caretaker to checked as far down BLM 34-8-36 as snow would allow, and a helicopter pilot who found the car. All without a reward.

    – I doubt if there was any logging in this neck of the woods at the time. Certainly there wasn’t any down BLM 34-8-36, else the road would have had some tracks down it (other than the snowed over ones the Kim car made).

    – the car was 20 miles down this spur, the last 6 miles were rough and overgrown. I would conclude it was not an active logging area.


  156. (188) Bamadad, Isn’t that something? This scenario is so hard to even imagine! The wonder of kids they can find fun with a stick and rock! I think James and Kati did an amazing job caring for those kids! They didn’t even have frostbite and were not terribly dehydrated – just amazing.

  157. A new question. Well, not new, but maybe not discussed lately.

    In re-reading some old stories, I found news articles that said that when Rachor found the girls, they had actually left a note in the car and had set off on foot.

    This seemed incredible to me when I read it. If true, it would be an amazing part of the story.

    Kati’s Dad, or anyone, do you know if Kati had indeed “given up” on waiting and had set out on foot with the girls?

  158. 209 – Rodney – I remember something about them leaving the car, too, but it seems like Kati thought better of it and was returning, if I recall correctly. Or I could be confusing this with something else.

  159. 207 – In addition, we have no idea how many of the organized SAR volunteers were loggers. Someplace I saw mention of some 80 volunteers being involved.


  160. I read with keen interest all 10 comments made by newcomer poster Oldtimer today. Damn shame he was NOT welcomed with open arms. I sure hope he returns.

  161. 188 – Bamadad, I’ve wondered that as well. But especially during those last two days when James was gone and not there to try to make it seem like some camping trip. How then do you not just give in to fear and just lose your mind, a mom alone with her babies and worried that James hadn’t returned. I suppose you look in their eyes. I can’t even fathom.

    191 – Rodney, thank you for sharing what you heard back from Jeff Barnard.

  162. (213) Kip he kind of walked in with guns a blazing…lol. I think it all worked out in the end and he came back and we all agree he can add a lot to the discussions.

  163. (214) Maggie I am still wondering why James didn’t return to the vehicle as he indicated he would.

  164. 209 – 210 I remembered reading that, too, that Kati was about to leave the car, but was returning to it at the time John Rachor spotted her. Thank goodness she did not leave.

    213 – Kip, many of expressed that we do hope Old Timer stays, and it sounds like he/she might pop in once in awhile, and I definitely hope so!

  165. Believe Sen Atkinson is a fan of the New Mexico SAR model. I think local LE and SAR have mixed emotions about it.

    The New Mexico model has had great success since they implemented it.

  166. 216 – Glenn, that one, why didn’t James return to the car, has filled more of my thoughts than a lot of my questions about all of this. No matter which way I play it in my head, it’s just as heartbreaking. Did he know that he was not coming back until he had help no matter how long and wanted to make it “easier” by saying a few hours? Did he really intend to come back that quickly, thinking that with Galice being only 4 hours away he could make it and be back that quickly, but then couldn’t stop himself from continuing to try once he realized help wasn’t that close? In any case, that just breaks my heart for Kati and girls.

    This leads me to the best article that I have read out of every single one of the many we’ve all been reading:

    I’ve posted this before, but it really grabs me every time.

  167. (221) Kip that is one of the funniest posts ever here! You just made my day! BTW the gender thing was a funny part of this thread early on…people had no idea what anyone was.

  168. 209-210-218 Kip, Remember she was waving the umbrella with the reflector tape on it? I also remember some comment about her leaving the car, but not the part about thinking better of it. Wasn’t she by the car when he saw her? After two days agonizing about what happened to James (she most likely knew he didn’t make it), her own judgment may have been impaired. If she did, or thought about leaving the car, we can assume that she had no idea how far it was to help or wherever James had set out for.
    She would have been very, very hungry by then, especially since she was nursing two hungry children. Besides hunger, She would have been thirsty. When I was a nursing mother, I would get so thirsty a minute or so into the nursing that I would have to get up right then and go get a glass of water–even if it meant letting the baby cry a bit. Do any of you moms remember that? I wonder how they were getting water…especially after James left.

  169. Hmmm… now that I think about it, OK, Oldtimer is a boy, definitely not a girl 🙂 Thank you!

    Honestly, though, it’s not because of any of the comments about men and women and how they either react or are perceived in society. I’ve said similar things (just differently). It’s only because now I recall the comment about clearing Nazi’s – I don’t think they were letting women do that then. So Oldtimer’s a boy 🙂

  170. 220/Maggie- it’s been so long I can’t remember who posted it originally, but in terms of him returning I think the Galice Creek to Galice theory is very compelling…I think he fully intended to return that day…that he thought he’d duck down Big Windy, slog a few miles into Galice, get help, and be back – perhaps late, but with a car and rescue. He just didn’t know that’s not where he was.

  171. (226) Paul that could very well be…as Brian Anderson on more than one occasion – I just hope I get the chance to ask him that.

  172. [223] — Glenn, yes I remember the shock when mapper was revealed as she! Also, it was so darn obvious for so long that JoCoSAR was indeed a woman, a spirited one at that, before finally, finally she admitted it! there were others, forgotten just who right now. >> good stuff!

  173. 228 – It was the question of Pac’s gender that led me to say I’d eat my sock if he wasn’t a boy, and look how out of control that got 🙂 Gender here can be a funny thing! I had no idea Mapper was a girl at first – or mappette as we starting calling her for awhile.

  174. Kip your wish might come true…we finally made progress on it tonight and that is all I am going to say. 🙂

  175. I suspect that at many points, both in the drive and walk, James thought: I’ll just see what’s around the next bend. Situations like this involve lots little decisions, with maybe a few significant ones thrown in.


  176. Does anyone know what happened to Susan? I saw that Spencer surfaced at another of Joe’s entries, but she used to add much and then, not long after the Oregonian article, she vanished.

  177. [226] — Paul — “he’d duck down Big Windy, slog a few miles into Galice, get help, and be back”

    I rather doubt that. If he had a sufficiently elevated viewpoint before or at the point he left the road, the forested expanse (aerial link below) he would have seen in front of him would likely have discouraged him from hiking down into it.

    I suspect his decision making ability at that time was impaired probably due to effects of early hypothermia.

    Sure would be helpful to hear from somebody with expertise in that field.

  178. (234) Kip I think this image helps get some perspective…

    From where he left maybe he thought this was going to cut time off instead of winding on all the roads…


    Maybe he thought it would get him back to the car more quickly…


    He thought the creek would lead to the town he was shooting for anyway!

    Just pure speculation on my part.

    Another question that begs at me…I wonder if John R. didn’t hear the roads were cleared on Friday – would he have flown Fri and Sat? On Sat he might have even seen James on the road…that question keeps circling in my head.

    IMHO it is the only factor that if had been different could have potentially changed the outcome and only because John R. did find the footprints while searching on his own.

  179. 235 – Hi RRR 🙂 Most of the layoutscene images were taken with the incorrect location before the correct one was know, but there is a note on any of those pages.

  180. [235] — RRR — thx RRR. My intention in referring to that aerial was to show the wild topography and the dense forest-vegetation cover from the markers “left road” to “pants found” to “clothing found” and beyond..

  181. [236] — Glenn: “on Sat he might have even seen James on the road…”

    even just hearing the sounds of a helicopter would have been heartening music to James..

  182. (244) Kip, Of all the things outside of the gate actually being closed (I know, I know it was never closed but it was supposed to be) I think about John R. deciding not to fly because he had heard it was searched. To me this IS the most significant question that needs to be answered.

    If anyone has different information about this point I would love to hear it.

  183. [245] & [246] … try right click & copy then paste link (url) to browser… should work ok. (If worth the bother…)

  184. [247] Glenn, agreed! i’m really looking forward to hearing what he has to say. ironic that he who deserves the most accolades is humbly in the background.

  185. (247) Kip I have been sitting on this question since day 1…let’s see how long before that other site adds it to its copyrighted narrative!

  186. 234/Kip: I still think he may have thought that, but his reasoning ability was surely suspect, if not from hypothermia, then from starvation. That example from the very earliest posts of the ex-military who had actually gone that long without food was intense. If it was ANY reflection of his state of mind at the time, impassable forests may have seemed a stroll in the park to him at the time.

  187. But hey I thought you didn’t want to blame anyone. Back to blaming the SAR folks again, huh? What about the Kims, who ignored the warning on a map, three on the signs, the weather and everything else? Oops, there I go again, playing the blame game! All depends on who we’re blaming, doesn’t it?

  188. I’ve wondered what James’ water situation was when he was walking the road. Depending upon his mental condition from being so long without proper hydration and nourishment, he could have also been hallucinating and thought he saw a cabin, people, or a road. If not at ehe beginning of his trek, it was certainly possible toward the end. And perhaps he thought he could obtain water in the drainage area.

    And then there were the bear tracks, no way to know when that critter was up on the road without knowing the exact conditions to see when the tracks could have been made.

  189. (251) Kip as I think about it and the drive for the answer has nothing to do with blame. I think SAR, etc did an amazing job with this just like James and Kati were amazing at keeping their children safe throughout this ordeal.

    It is just the only factor that I can see that could have made a difference. It would be really good to know how to avoid that happening in the future so another John R. out there could do what they do best – be an amazing human being and lend a hand to help someone.

    That is the value that all the answers will bring. Anyone out there looking to blame anyone in all of this just doesn’t get the long-term picture and value this could bring someday.

  190. [254] … Paul, I recall the x-miltary guy(?!) poster. at the time I thought what he had to say rather extreme. I compared it with my own experince years ago fasting. I did 10 days no food, only water. Felt light headed at the end but not out of control or anything like that.

  191. [258] — Glenn, I suspect if John Rachor had asked SAR what he could do to help, they would have responded negatively as they did with John James when he was trying to be helpful.

  192. 258 – Kip, people can probably go several weeks without food, but on your fast, I’m guessing you were well hydrated and not exposed to the elements as James was. Add in being sick with worry over saving your family. He was a thin guy who probably had no stores of fat to call on, either. (I’m not insinuating you were not thin, but your post sounds like you are describing a diet type of fast).

  193. (260) Kip, I am not so sure SAR really responded negatively however I think we will find out. I wasn’t there and really don’t know at this point but I do know that happens a lot in situations like this.

    A lot of pressure, things coming at the SAR personnel from all directions – it really becomes an impossible situation.

    I am sure the OSSA will cover this and we will get a clear and factual representation of the details (good or bad) and we can make our own assessments.

    Yes I feel bad for the John James situation it has to be beating him up every day. However the difference between the two situations is John R. actually found them.

    John James could have gone up that road a ways and saw tracks turning around or something and could have decided there is no way anyone went that far up the road. Who knows? I think John James stepped up and did more than most people would have done.

    James only chance would have been for him to have been found sooner and most likely on the road and not in Windy Creek. If John R. did not believe the roads were cleared he might have flown on Fri and Sat.

  194. [256] — bear tracks — way back when reading the bear scare stories on this blog, I thought to meself what a pile of nonsense. Sure, anythings possible. But black bears are almost always harmless. Sure, if you got in between a female and her cubs you might have a problem. But only then.

  195. 198 Baby Sabine cried alot. It had to have been very rough especially with the early onset of night. The details will have to come though Kati of course.

  196. (264) Kip if I remember what was speculated about the bear tracks is that they were brown bear. Does anyone know when they begin hibernation? What is their disposition right before hibernation?

    If my memory serves me right a brown bear is a grizzly?

  197. 210 Yes true, but the babie were too heavy for her and she had to turn back, there were other reasons but that’s her story to tell.

  198. [263] — Glenn: “if John R. did not believe the roads were cleared he might have flown on Fri and Sat”

    Makes sense what you say, Glenn. Why did he believe the roads had been cleared? Because of the media reports?

  199. I keep thinking along with all the things you people are thinking that, if the Black Bar Lodge had been on the map (I know, I know, it wasn’t), he would have walked the 6 miles back to that turnoff and gone down to it. Food, water, clothing, blankets…
    Even with BBL not on the map, he DID pass up on taking that road down the hill that might have gone to the river, if he had intended to follow the river at all. OR maybe he didn’t think (or wasn’t OK at all by now) to head downhill until he had walked considerably farther to the Windy Creek drainage.

    OK, I’m letting this go.

    Kati will eventually share with us James’ plan, or their plan. But this is the part of the story she doesn’t know either. Can you imagine he tortured thoughts about why he did what he did after they separated? I wonder if she reads this blog, as her dad does, and laughs ( I do hope she laughs) at us for our silly ideas, and gets mad at us for our ruthless criticisms, and even possibly thinks we may have nailed it on the head sometimes. I just hope she knows that we are hopelessly caught up in her story, for better or worse, that she has a lot of support and true concern, and that we won’t forget her and her little ones.

  200. 264 – Kip, regarding the bear tracks not being a problem, perhaps they weren’t even an issue. But again, I think it’s one thing for us in our warm houses to talk about brown bear tracks vs. black bear tracks. Who knows what was going through the mind of a guy who is starving, cold, worried about his family, etc.

  201. (270) Kip good question. I cannot find anywhere where it says that John R. talked to SAR. Maybe he talked to other volunteers (Carson) or someone that heard it and it was third hand.

    I really don’t know, just guesses on my part. But I really want to know how he had heard that.

    Kip were they any media reports on Friday to that affect?

  202. 265 & 267 – Kati’s Dad, I’m in awe by Kati’s ability to keep herself and the girls alive, and I’m so very, very thankful that she did not get too far away from that car, whatever reason. Thank you for dropping by!

  203. (270) Kip however you slice it…John R. has amazing intuition not surprising given his business success. His instinct is good and he is blessed with that gift.

    He is truly one of the heros of this story.

  204. No doubt John R is a true hero of this bittersweet tale. I love that man for his central role in saving my girls. My grief over losing James will endure, but I can otherwise die a happy man.

  205. 271 – When I first read that the car had been found near Black Bar Lodge (an error), I tried to find a map with it marked. The DeLORME atlas does not show it, though I had some idea of where it was from the associated mention of Big Windy Ck. Eventually I found it on a Rogue River rafters map. Black Bar Rapids are also marked on the Google Earth image. Later I found it marked on the Benchmark Maps atlas.

    A map like the ODOT one shows road accessible public facilities, such as campgrounds and state parks. It does not show private facilities, especially ones on 4wd roads (which it also does not show).

    A sign at the junction might have saved James. But, a sign like that might also be an invitation to vandals. The road is used to bring in supplies. Guests normally arrive by river. The Lodge owners would have to make the call on that matter.

    If James Kim had better navigational tools, the results might have a lot different. I’ve been using DeLORME atlases for years. For parts of Canada there is an excellent Backroads Mapbooks series. Forest Service maps are also strongly recommended. I don’t know what maps the local BLM offices offer.

    A GPS unit, even a simple hand held one, could have been invaluable, even it only has a base map with state highways and rivers.

    I suspect they had a laptop along. A map program like MS Streets and Trips gives a lot more details than the ODOT map. My older copy does not have topographic information, and its categorization of roads is pretty crude. Still it shows the full length of BLM 34-8-36, and even the Black Bar Lodge turnoff.


  206. 2770268
    There was a story of a black bear in Medford today who is now up a tree. He came down from the hills into a subdivision. They are hoping he will climb down after dark tonight after all is quiet.
    I ran into a black above my house about a mile while hiking one day. They are as scared as we are. They are frequently seen by hikers around the trail system above Ashland. They eat my apples every fall if I don’t get them picked in time. Darn bears!
    I’m sure they are all over the Bear Camp area. Wonder how the road got it’s name.

  207. 278- paulj said, “I suspect they had a laptop along. ”
    This is why we need worldwide wireless capability.

  208. 264/Kip: I agree with you, and you know that, and I know that, but they quite possibly did not…which leads to:
    277:Leland Stamper: Yes, there are plenty of bears in that area. Most are quite afraid of humans, but there are ones that get acclimated and unafraid because of all the rafting and fishing in the Rogue River canyon. In the lower canyon, the BLM has had to set up electric fences for coolers to go into at night. We had a large black bear raid our camp 2 years ago on an October float. Despite pan banging, rock throwing, and all manner of harassment, it still calmly broke into our coolers and ate a nice fill while we were in close proximity. In the winter, when the berries and fish are gone, the bears get more aggressive and less afraid and if James entountered a human habituated bear, he was likely in no danger, but it might have seemed to him he was.

  209. Orygungirl re:Black Bar Lodge and maps – most reports suggested that Kati and James thought they were not in that area – rather that they were about 4 miles from Galice.

  210. (278) Paulj, I think they had two laptops with them.

    (281) Kip, thanks. I am going to explore the Carson angle a little – we haven’t said much about them but they have been in the media – maybe I can find it there.

    I wonder if Carson was in communication with John R. while he was flying – didn’t John R. call someone on the radio when we saw and verified the tracks on the road were human?

  211. So the police report and photos are surfacing at the other sandbox I hear…wonder where they got those ????

  212. 279 I think I would be more concerned about cougars than bears. Although I’ve only seen one cougar and it was leaving the area fast.

  213. Jedidiah Smith. An amazing, incredible character. He was one of the early mountain men and one of the best. A noteworthy explorer/discoverer too. Among many other areas of western U.S.A, he explored the mountainous territory east of the Pacific and north of San Francisco. Sound famliar? It was then part of Spain, or was it Mexico?

    Associating James Kim with Jedidiah seems fitting to me in a way. James had many precious character qualities in common with Jedidiah. And both died alone in wildernesses.

  214. Via Joe’s media link, I found this article in the Mail Tribune about John Rachor and another volunteer pilot, Randy Jones.

    It does not mention when John first searched this area – was that Saturday or Sunday? Where is it mentioned that John had heard something about one or more roads being ‘cleared’?

    According this article (mainly quoting Jones) John was particularly familiar with this area, having driven over Bear Camp a number of times, and flow to Agness as well in his small helicopter. Jones thinks the helicopter size gave him advantages over the ones that James’s father hired (and may also the National Guard ones).


  215. [288] –Glenn, yes. By some Comanche indians. He was scouting ahead away from his party, looking for a water source, in the desert. He was attempting to save them. They were all near death from thirst. He went ahead alone.

  216. Just a little Bear funny, when we lived in Myrtle Creek we lived way out on Frozen Creek, one day the neighbor was out in the yard peering down the road yelling at her scruffy little dog to “get back here right now” Her husband followed her out asking what she was yelling about??? “Trying to get the dog back here in the yard where he belongs!” He said “ah honey, the dog is right behind you!” It was a little bear cub! Needless to say they hightailed it back into the house before Mamma Bear showed up looking for Baby Bear!

    It’s such a different life living “OUT” Grew up in Salem, spendt 5 years in Calif, 3 in Downtown LA and then Frozen Creek! My mom would always ask why they would not come trap the cougars and relocate them…..

  217. [273] & [281] — Glenn: I can’t find what I think I’m looking for! Gawd… there is so much info here. Not complaining. It’s just the facts!!

    Lisa, are you’re with us? She’s got a good handle on the “all roads cleared” issue, I think. Perhaps she could chime in now.


    mentions various searches that other counties performed, or were going to do, as of Dec 2.
    Curry Cty searched up Bear Camp (FS 23) as far as their trucks could go. Josephine Cty was going to send their Snow Cat over the remainder of the road. Coos was searching south from Powers to the Agness Pass area, and into Eden Valley and Mt Bolivar (the through route on the north side of the Rogue).

    So it is apparent that as of Friday and Saturday, the focus in all the counties was on searching the through routes. I don’t think anyone had moved to the stage of systematically clearing side roads.


  219. 279 leland stamper
    I worry about cougars when I hike anywhere in S. Oregon. They killed one next door to me. I live on the edge of a small ravine with a creek in it and the cougar was sick and living under the deck of the house next door near a water source. It had killed a dog down the street the week before. Easy prey.
    That’s what I don’t want to be, or my dog…easy prey.

  220. musing….. there’s a lot of upcoming hi tech hardware becoming available that could have helped enormously in scanning the maze of logging roads targetted in the search.
    eg. pilotless drones

    Here’s a real cheapie: A Remote Control Plane with Camera Capturing Real-time Images for Google Earth

  221. 283 – Joe, or somebody, if he’s gone

    OK, they thought they were 4 miles from Galice, and that was where James intended to go. OK, but are you thinking cross-country kind of air miles?

    Also, if their map had only one road on it and they knew they didn’t go back the way they came on that one road, how did they calculate the 4 miles. Why did they think they were driving back to Galice? The only way they could have known they were returning to Galice was to go back the way they had come. There were no other roads marked on that map, right?

  222. 297/Kip: Did you see they had drones like that for the Mt Hood effort? They never got to fly them much, too much wind and blowing snow, but they were featured prominently on the local news. The part that blew me away is they were about the size of a large R/C airplane, but they cost $30,000. I don’t know enough about them to know if they would have helped on all those roads or not, but the technology is fascinating.

  223. [262] & [258] — Madeleine, its way late, but I needed to clarify.

    I was in no way suggesting that I could even imagine what mental / physical condition James was in when he made that fateful decision, consciously or otherwise, to leave the road and hike down the W.C. drainage depression.

    I was only comparing my little 10 day fast experiment and how I felt at the end of it with some extremest comments made by a joeduck x-military poster several weeks ago.

  224. Orygungirl re:maps – the 4 miles, if I’m remembering right, was what Kati reportedly told OSP in one of the interviews. I assume they were thinking road miles. They definitely had an Oregon DOT map like the one at the Kim Story section (click above). I have not heard that used or had any other maps.

    I still think (but totally guessing here) that they thought they were heading back to Galice area when they were in fact on the BLM spur road heading away from Galice.

  225. [299] — Paul, I didn’t know about the Mt. Hood drones. Interesting, indeed.

    Many moons ago I built myself an Eipper MX ultra-light, from a kit. (need to admit one of my young at the time teenage sons ‘assisted’ and deserves most of the assembly credit). Anyway we did it and I taught myself to fly it. Was a great little machine. Cruised about 35-40 mph, stall speed about 20. I couldn’t help thinking when the Kim search was in its early stages, how I’d just like to follow Joe Duck’s hunch, which seemed very credible to me at the time, and fly those dang roads and find the Kims. No kidding, it would have been a machine well suited to the task. Assuming no fog and winds light. BTW I always wore a parachute when I flew it!

  226. 12 Lisa -Thank you for your kind words. I admire your caring and sensitivity. Best thoughts…Nancy

  227. 301 Joe Thank
    And that explains why they drove so far on the spur road…thinking they were heading towards Galice.

    You know, I was pretty good at the game CLUE as a kid. Guess that dates me! But this one is baffling. Even with all these great blogger minds working together.

    I wish Kati’s dad could just answer just two questions.
    Why did they take the spur road, what we now know is BLM 34-8-36. Did they think they were heading back to Galice?

  228. 304 – I mean Joe Duck, not Joe Thank. Really, thanks!

    I just linked to Trip Check from the Oregon SAR web site after printing out the lists for the emergency car and backpackkits. Looks like there are two accidents on I-5 between Grants Pass and Roseburg that have closed the freeway tonight. Must be icy out there.

    Well, it’s lights out again.

  229. It’s 7am in the central timezone and I’m feeling rested and like I can write off some time to myself, as “training and education” and go over to the suggestions page….must have another critical look at that odot map and I’m on it!

  230. (302) Kip I think your idea about drones is an excellent one. They certainly can help quite a bit.

  231. This is what I posted to the suggestions page — if anyone wants to read it that isn’t headed that way, or is interested in my assesment, or if you have any thoughts you would like to add, or if this gives you anything else to think about.



    Problems/Concerns and Recommendations


    1. color scheme
    2. county line symbology
    3. warning box/arrow/text symbology
    4. lack of road names in critical areas
    5. lack of critical information, inclusion of less critical information/map purpose

    1. Color Scheme

    There is a very liberal use of the color red. Red is a dramatic color and is good for warnings. However, highways, wilderness areas, warnings, and text are done in this color on this map. This liberal use of the color red diminishes the effect of the red color for warnings.

    2. County line symbology

    I did not notice a symbol for county lines in the legend. However, by looking at the map I noticed county lines were similiar to the symbology for unpaved roads, which are the same color with a slightly lower line weight. These two factors (lack of symbol in the legend, and similiarity to unpaved roads) leads to the possibility of confusing county lines with unpaved roads.

    3. Warning Box Symbology

    As mentioned the use of the color red over the entire map for highways and scenic areas already diminshes the warnings, which are red and pink. In addition, the text appears to be pink. This detracts the eye from the box, which is a red line, and the arrow which is also a red color. In addition, the slim, red, curved arrow attached to the warning box blends with the other red lines that signify wilderness areas. The arrow is also very small.

    4. Lack of Road Names in Critical Areas

    There are no road names on what “appears” to be main routes between Grants Pass and Gold Beach.

    5. Lack of Critical Information/Inclusion of Less Critical Information/Map Purpose

    Map readers may not realize the extent of logging roads and other consfusing roads in forest areas, the road map does not depict conditions accuratley in forest areas. A map at the scale of an entire state cannot include the detail neccessary to navigate a forest area, especially if there are not names on the road that are included on the state highway map. Also the inclusion of some unnecessary information may be taking away space for necessary material. Some camping areas, some topo information, some roads, some recreational areas on the map may not be neccessary for safe highway navigation in the state if it takes away from the general usefulness of the highway map. This is a highway map and the general purpose of the map should be highway navigation.


    1. Color Scheme

    There are a lot of colors to choose from besides red and green (the dominant colors on this map). It would be good to change, or phase out the use of red for general purposes on this map (ie. wilderness areas, highways, camping areas or related text).

    2. County Line Symbology

    Include counties in the legend, or get rid of counties on the map. Counties are not neccessary to highway navigation. Change color of line so it is not so similiar to unpaved roads.

    3. Warning Boxes/Arrow/Text

    Change the color of warning boxes, text and arrows. (or, if you change the color scheme of the entire map, keep them red — and make the text red too). The text of the warning is different from the color of the outline of the box and the arrow. Make all three colors the same (text, arrow and outline of box). Make it different from the color that outlines wilderness areas (at this time they are both red).

    In addition to the color changes, make the arrow that the warning points to (usually the road) a straight arrow instead of curved. Make this straight arrow slightly larger in line weight than it is currently, also increase the size of the end tip of the arrow.

    Make sure the placement of the text box is not ambiguous, and is sitting in open space so that the box is not mistakenly representing a different road or line (like a county line).

    4. Lack of Road Names in Critical Areas

    Include road names for all routes shown on map.

    5. Critical Information and Map Purpose

    This is the most difficult point. Several possibilities and recommendations.

    A. In all forest areas, in small text, indicate that travellers should see a USFS map for detailed information (or whatever agency maintains detailed maps of that area) if the ODOT map cannot accuratley portray the detail of dangerous topographic and seasonal weather elements in that area, or complicated logging road networks.

    B. Another possibility is to greatly simplify all camping areas, topo information and wilderness areas on the map and produce two state maps — one that is highway map (with more space created for warnings and detalied highway info and road names, also with an text to indicate where to get maps with more detail), and one that is a highway map with extra wilderness and forest area information.

  232. Det. Mike W., is it possible to post or forward a copy of the color map (the one produced by Eric F) that was e-mailed to you and subsequently to other agencies? Thanks.

  233. Aviation.

    The BLM has tested both forty thousand dollar drones and two thousand dollar model aircraft for video surveillance of range land.

    As for manned aircraft for a search, the Civil Air Patrol usually launches Cessna 172s which are high wind “four” passenger aircraft.

    Many jurisdictions have found that police surveillance aircraft are very expensive and have turned to ultralights for such tasks. Some of the very specialized design aircraft used in nature photography are extremely useful in searching rugged terrain for missing hikers because they fly low and slow and are designed to have stable observer platforms since nature films often require stable camera platforms.

    A Radio Controlled model aircraft pre-programmed with GPS coordinate waypoints could have flown a Sony video camera along the road and its various spurs for a pittance in gasoline and personnel, however, the flights would have had to have been flown in thirty minute segments.

  234. I would imagine that Josephine and Curry counties each have atleast one recreational club devoted to large-scale radio-controlled aircraft capable of carrying video cameras on short flights of search areas. I’m sure some coordination would have to be involved but it seems to be an idea worth some further thought since the craft can fly in rather rough weather if needbe.

    Ofcourse, since already there was some sort of mapping coordinates error in this search, one wonders if pre-programmed GPS waypoints are sufficient.

  235. I have not posted here of any significance for several days as I had begun to feel the same as Katie’s dad stated a short while back he felt, that this discussion and group was taking a downhill turn. But I have continued to read.

    I realize I have not submitted anything of importance to this discussion, only thoughts & personal opinions, and trying to bring a laugh on occasion, to help ease tension, and this post will be the same, nothing significant, just thoughts & opinions, but no laughs, as right now I feel kind of sad.

    First I want to say again & emphasis I appreciate the freedom Joe had lent us with this blog and overall I think he does a very good job. But there is a point I feel very serious about which I would like to address.

    It was clear that Charles was trolling here to try to stir up distention to divide people on this discussion to try to drive them to his site & to drum up numbers for his site. He also tried to conduct interviews here. He also was trolling here for info to place on his site. I think the majority here agree with that from the posts regarding this person. I would assume that Joe has IP tracking here. As it’s known that Charles was trying to conduct interviews here and is stealing from this site to put on his, even Det. Mike recognized that Charles was trying to conduct an interview with him, that other’s who had a involvement in this case are likely going to be concerned about posting here out of concerned that what they say here now will be taken and posted THERE & the intentions of that site are questionable. Given this, at this point, if I were one of the significant one’s, I would no longer post here. If Joe has IP blocking, I would like to see Charles, Dee, & Pac’s IP blocked and then it posted that their IP has been blocked. Yes, you can not prevent them from stealing here 100% as those intend on stealing here could access from other IP’s, but to know that effort which was possible to be put forth for their protection was put forth.

    This is not censorship for the purpose of censorship or censorship to allow only one viewpoint, this is doing whatever is possible in your effort to protect those posting here who are personally involved in the subject of this discussion and protecting the integrity of this discussion.

    Although those who have been asked to leave have been asked to leave for very legitimate reasons, it has gotten so that anyone who expresses a difference of opinion or expresses anything negative about the search efforts and any of those involved in the search are now blasted. I agree that we have learned things here which has put somewhat of a different light on what some of our earlier opinions were, and in general have agreed to withholding opinions until all the reports come out, but it seems no questions which are not glowing in nature are now tolerated of those involved in the search effort. If people make mistakes, then those mistakes need to be recognized and improved upon, and yes, they may have to take some questions and heat for the mistakes they made, THAT is the only way the methods are going to be improved upon. But we are no longer ‘allowed’ any speculation which is considered negative, based on what information we have,regarding JoCo & RRR3.

    John James came on here feeling he would get a fair shake and I honestly can’t say I think he really has. He’s conducted himself with utmost class. I was shocked beyond words at the way Sara attacked him and was shocked and saddened that more did not speak up against her uncalled for, childish, and pure out simply mean attack on Mr. James. Nor have I EVER seen anyone address to her Mr. James’ statement that her father was conducting a smear campaign against Mr. James in their local paper. If this is so, although she may not have any control over her fathers, actions, & if this is the case, then she should write into the paper herself denouncing her father’s attack on Mr. James and state it’s begin done without her approval or support. Also, they live in a small community, any problems she had with Mr. James, she could have and should have sought him out personally to resolve those. Mr. James stated he had tried to get in touch with her on several occasions and had left word for her to contact him and she had not done so. It was ONLY after her uncalled for attach here & other’s encouraged her to take Mr. James up on his offer, that she finally got face to face with him. Her method of handling this issue seriously adds more doubt in my mind of how she conducted her self in the Kim case. I realize the gag order has to be very tough, she is ill and tensions are high & have taken that all in account.

    I’m deeply sorry Sara is ill. I truly am. If she was ill when the case started and it hampered her abilities, then she should have removed herself. If she has made her self ill over this case, then she shouldn’t do so, I don’t think, and I’m speaking from my own opinion, that neither Katie nor James would want that. If she’s ill because it’s possible she’s trying to be made a scape goat for others, my heart goes out to her, but the fact is, she WAS intimately involved in the case and I still have questions about her actions but no longer feel free to ask those questions, not to her personally, as I realize she’s under a gag order, but to put forth those questions at all. I feel I now have to tip-toe and be careful, as several others have presently stated they feel this also. This is what makes me sad. I do not dispute her right to defend and explain herself, the method one does so usually tells me a lot about what type of person that person is.

    Glen, I have liked and respected your input and opinions to this discussion. I am not John James, and the way you put your question to him I found attacking and offensive. Yes, you have apologized & I respect you for that & after you later explained what you were trying to get at was understandable but the method you used was so un-Glen like, it shocked me. John James made it clear he did not ‘change’ his story, he simple did not divulge all the facts and to me there is quite a difference. It is yet to be seen why and what facts he choose not to divulge but my question is and I will wait for the reports, could this be he was trying to be respectful of the search efforts, respectful of the people involved in the search and protecting anyone involved in the search efforts? Glen, the fact that John James freely admits he choose not to divulge certain information until the investigation you seem to want to put the spin on that he’s hiding something or trying to make excuses for ‘changing his stories’.

    Also, there has been much speculation that Charles/Pac are one & the same posting under different names.
    I am not addressing whether they are or aren’t, I’m only addressing the issue of that tatic being discussed here. Glen, I also am one who did not catch on that you were posting as “lurking”. You have been one of the one’s most critical of posting under different names, yet you admit you did the same, during a time you said you would not be able to be around. It seems you deliberately misled us.

    Now for a brief comment regarding the actual subject matter – I read the article linked here regarding the John who found Katie and one of my main questions regarding the copter search seems to be answered: He evidently had a smaller copter which could get down further and closer than the other copters being used in the search.

    Respect to all, I will continue to read as I am still interested in the facts of this case.

  236. Rodney, you took the words (question) right out of my mouth! 🙂 I am so glad you asked it, I thought it, then forgot it (did this about 6 times yesterday). Then saw your question and thought, THAT WAS IT!

    Side note: did you guys realize our troll visit yesterday was,imho, *extremely* well handled….

  237. Frances, I can’t help but say, that you are so smart and wise and I kinda wish you were my mom, but that would be really insluting to my mom.

    Tara, I did notice that. I can’t help but find it funny, I mean the way it looks as your scrolling down. It reminds me of a certain movie with Dr. Evil and shooshing.

    Rodney, by the way thanks for getting that article/intentions/quotes thing cleared up.

  238. Frances, I am so glad you spoke your mind and heart requarding these issues. I too have noticed that the questioning has to be tiptoed around… I do think that questions are important, any and all viewpoints, but they must be done with tact. Joe has stated multiple times that he welcomes all opinions as long as they are done so with consideration of all the readers. That, in my opinion, does not mean the hard questions cant be asked, and in fact SHOULD be asked.
    I also think that there are several here that are reserving those tougher questions for when the OSSA report comes out. Several of us were quick to judge and proven our judgements were wrong (including myself). So, as far as I am concerned, I have learned my lesson and I am not-so-patiently waiting for the OSSA report. Then, I believe the not answered questions can be addressed.
    Again, thank you frances. Im glad you are still around.

  239. By the way….

    I have probably said this a million times (okay not that many), but I dont blame ODOT. I am sure ODOT has a disclaimer on that map anyway and they are protected from any lawsuits (maybe not but this is what I would expect).

    As you all have gathered I am currently a GIS Analyst specializing in natural resources (I have worn many hats within the GIS and cartography world) but have also specialized in cartography (which is not exactly the same thing).

    Asking for changes to maps is not a huge issue. The changes I posted above are some of the changes I would make or focus on if I were in charge there. And most of the time, people in the position of making those changes are glad to do it and dont take it personally, and will sometimes have a reason to say — no we are not going to change that and this is why.

    I have seen some people ask are there rules to cartography? Yes, there are. Cartography is an art and a science. There are rules but there are also judgement calls to make. Cartographers, in the end have “cartographiic license” to make certain decisions where there are no rules in place. In some areas there is just heavy guidance, and not a hard fast rule.

    I am assuming that ODOT will gladly make changes if they are aware or made aware of certain problems, and if not right away, within the next few printings. I am assuming they will consider many options and issues and come to certain decisions, that, still may be refined over time.

    I do wonder if they have been reading along as they are some of the only voices we have not heard from here. It’s my opinion they will probably take suggestions in stride and work to come up with the best maps they can, as this is usually the case in the kinds of places I have worked that are similiar.

    If you look, you will see that each state has a different (but some very similiar) symbology for their maps. The current ODOT map should not be written in stone, and ODOT deceision makers should even consider checking out some other state maps for better ideas.

    hint, check out how missouri symbolizes counties….and I love how Tennessee uses the color purple and other cool tones….oh, and tennesee includes pictures of the governor and some officials…not sure if you want to go that far but aleast people might know who to complain to 🙂

  240. (314) Frances, Good morning. I will only address a couple of things in your lengthy and charged up post this AM.

    John James called Sara R. a liar – he directly attacked her. I think you are confusing a post from RRR that was over the top toward John James.

    It has been my experience that anyone that comes out with statements like:

    The other person is a liar…
    I will take a lie detector test…

    That raises suspicions with me. Anyone that knows anything about lie detector test knows they are unreliable and it is a smokescreen.

    I took that as an indication that John James had something to hide. Since he took the offensive first I decided I would ask the tough questions that I had.

    In regard to changing his story – the fact is John James did change his story although it may not be material in nature – we don’t know yet – I am assuming the OSSA report will clear that up.

    What I realized about John James comments and approach was not one of trying to cover something up but somebody dealing with a lot of self-imposed guilt. So I changed course. The questions I asked of John were legitimate and I was intense but that is the nature of this subject.

    As for Lurking…it is a commonly used term to indicate somebody is interjecting “editorial” comments. That person could be known or not known to the board. One of this main issues I am personally against open comment threads like this is the fact that people can post under any name and we will never know. I absolutely have not mislead anyone on this thread about anything and I really resent you labeling me that way.

    I was not going to participate in feeding Charles Wilson’s efforts. Regardless of what people may believe their motives are not for the greater good but for self-promotion and benefit. Just look at how much material they have taken from here without proper credit given and then they have the audacity to copyright it! Maggie I am sure you have noticed your hard work over there by now!

    It is my recollection that Sara was the one that came out here and set the record straight with John James and then suggested a sit-down to clear the air.

    Frances I would like you to explain how Sara attacked John James out here?

    The OSSA report will change a lot of opinions out here. It is prudent that we wait for that report.

  241. (314) Frances, Joe does not have IP blocking. That is controlled by WordPress plus people can spoof the IP through many services readily available out there which I am sure people like Pac and Charles probably do.

    The only way for Joe to moderate this board is to delete or edit comments which IMO is a very large task especially for someone who is volunteering their time.

  242. (314) Frances, how would you feel if John James came back and told us he was paid $50k, or that he is part of a movie or book deal now? I am not in any insinuating that he is – I am making a point.

    He put himself on CNN on national TV and got paid reasonably for his services – he should expect to be asked tough questions about it. I am still wondering why he did the CNN thing anyway? – just seems odd to me.

  243. Just my opinion, but it does not seem at all odd to me that John James would do the CNN story. To me, he clearly seems like someone who wants to be helpful and he knows the area well, so I can’t think of why he *wouldn’t* have done it. Am I missing something?

  244. (324) Maggie, I guess it comes down to personal perspective and how we all individually handle our emotions and feelings coming off of something like this.

    I don’t think there is anything missing just different perspectives. Personally I would not have done that if I were feeling the way John Jame describes…but AGAIN IT IS MY OPINION AND HOW I PERSONALLY WOULD BE. That is not to imply anything negative about John. Frances asked for an explanation and I have tried to show how I see it.

  245. 323/Glenn – just speculation, but if CNN wanted to go to the site, and there is a gag order on JoCo SAR folks, that may eliminate a lot of folks who would know the area well enough to get them there safely. One of the issues with that location is that it is very remote and only a handful of people have ever been out there. His name was prominent in the story and I thought he said they approached him, though I may be wrong about that. This is one of elements of the story that is, to me, not all that critical.

  246. (326) Paul – agreed. Out of respect for Frances I thought I would answer her questions as completely as possible.

    The whole reason these comments threads can be successful is because everyone brings their life experiences to bear and their individual perspectives which is what really drives all of our questions.

    Has anyone tried to reach out to Carson to get them to comment here?

  247. 320/Glenn: I am not going to speculate on CW’s intentions/motivations, but he and Dee’s shameless borrowing of Maggies very hard work sickens me. It is a public forum. It is not illegal; but borrowing her work without attribution or any heads-up to anyone here has all the class of plagiarism. Ditto goes for the anonymous photos that appear to be “migrating”.

    As one who initially defended him, I want to be clear. I am sensitive to some of what Frances says about opposing viewpoints being shouted down. I think it happens here. I think “Old Timer” got worse than he should have. However, there is a fine line between expressing opposing viewpoints and flogging people to death with a view and/or badgering a special guest incessantly. CW’s methods ultimately went way over that line, and Joe appropriately stepped in. BH catapulted over that line, and greatfully she is gone too. Pac?…don’t get me started. (WE did do an outstanding job yesterday of NOT feeding the troll, kudos to all). Gayle left in part because of the way Old Timer was received. I think it is something we need to keep working on, but concede it is difficult, especially when emotions get charged up, which is inevitable.

  248. 318/RRR: I am frustrated it is delayed, but I am glad they are being thorough and not rushing it. I think it speaks to all the very complex elements in this case and reinforces my conviction that those unnamed persons (who may on occassion borrow things without asking) who are reaching conclusions and passing judgement on various parties are doing so prematurely and before all the facts are in.

  249. (328) Paul if someone comes across as sexist, racist, etc…they deserve to get blasted from everyone. It is 2007 and if we are not above that by now…

    If they correct their perspective then people should accomodate and back down.

    Tough questions need to be asked her and differing opinions will appear and people should be ready to discuss and/or defend their statements if they want to make them.

    A big question here is of style, we are all different and will have different approaches to it.

  250. WOW!!!!

    I’ll understand if you have to bop me off the blog, but want
    to make a comment in response to Frances’ post. One night I started to compose a post to thank various members of this blog for their excellant comments and insights. Went back checking for the names I wanted to include…realized it was almost everyone who comments here. What a great group!

    That said, there are those moments when one has a feeling,
    after reading the latest posts, not unlike the feeling one had after reading Shirley Jackson’s _The Lottery_.

    Best thoughts,

  251. (332) Nancy…LOL Interesting perspective but who is getting stoned to death in the middle of the little town of Salem, CT?

  252. Ohhh the Lottery! Great literature reference Nancy!

    I sure do hope it doesn’t sound that bad.

  253. 331: Gayle is gone. Old Timer fled quickly (greatfully he returned, but has yet to re-post). Frances thinks it is an issue. I think it is an issue. I suspect there are others who are share our concerns, if so, please speak up.

    Kati’s Dad said the quality of our interactions had fallen. He did elaborate some on that, but I welcome further input from him as I would hate to see him leave. I think it is a problem that we need to keep working on. IMHO.

  254. But also, a good point….Nancy could NEVER be as bad as the people in question (Im certain) and people should not be afraid to post. The people in question are like 1% of posters (not sure of the stats but its probably less). I mean, were talking about some bad to the bone people!

  255. glenn I think you are so wrong it’s not even funny.

    1. Sara said John James has changed his story several times.

    2. John James read this and said Sara is a liar.

    3. Sara said she was defending him when she said that.

    4. John James said if she wants to talk she has his cell number.

    5. Sara said she would, and thanks for the offer.

    It’s all there on page 7.

    By the way, John James has posted that since their meeting they still don’t agree exactly on their interactions. So you can forget “knowing” for yourself. If they can’t agree between them, then you certainly can’t know.

  256. It really sounds as a lot of you are new to blogging, comment threads, forums.

    IMO this comment thread is mild compared to the rest of the world!

    The fact of the matter is you cannot CONTROL what is going to happen out here. It is Joe’s decision to he thinks is appropriate or not.

    It is your decision on whether you decide to read what somebody else has posted. If you don’t like what is being said then stop reading it.

    The overall value of this thread will be the culmination of everyone’s perspective – good and bad.

    To the point about Wilson – I agree with blocking him because of his desire for personal gain from somebody else’s tragedy and yes I know it happens every day. IMO it is wrong.

    Pac had good points but he flooded his posts with direct personal insults, etc and he is what they call in the forum world as a detractor. Someone who wants attention to their ideas and everyone else be damned. IMO that is why Joe has censored him. How many of us are still pounding the same points we started with on page 1? The rest of us have evolved through the process he has not.

    I might suggest that everybody lighten up a bit about trying to control all of this – it won’t work unless you do.

  257. I want to say this, I have put my neck out and invited people who are directly involved in this tragedy to come here and post. I have said to them it is a … well here’s a part
    “This blog is very different. It is filled with honest, information seeking, adult conversation that has such a mature atmosphere that people directly involved in the search have felt freedom to post there.
    Please, consider it. our objective is to learn from this tragic incident and make changes that will help prevent future incidences. I truly believe your input would be valued and respected. ”

    Please dont make me look like a liar. I believe what I wrote about this place, so lets get back to it.

    Perhaps we should curtail the unneccesay arguing about inconsequential things and go back to finding solutions. Perhaps one idea might be to compile a list of important unanswered questions to look for in the OSSA report, so that once its here and read, any unanswered questions can be examined. mmmkay??? 🙂

  258. (338) Tim, Sara with the assistance of Phil set up the meeting for the two of them. It was Sara’s and Phil’s efforts that got the two of them together to sit down.

    Thank for you for pointing out the timeline of events. My response earlier was not documenting the precise steps but the overall outcome. If you look at the whole picture it is pretty clear.

    A) John took offense to a comment made by JoCoSAR and he responded with a personal insult
    B) Sara came out (she didn’t attack John as Frances indicated she did) and tried to explain her original post.
    C) They extended an invitiation to clear the air directly, Phil and Sara made the effort to make that happen.

    That is what I took away from all of that. I don’t see how that assessment is wrong nor do I see any of this as funny.

    As I have said over and over again, the OSSA report should hopefully clear a lot of this up. Again that is why I have asked for temperance in regard to the people that are currently gagged.

    It is like beating somebody up with their hands tied behind their backs.

  259. 343/Tara: Thank you, very well put, and a hearty thank you for putting your neck out in inviting those involved to get involved here. I think your idea is an excellent one.

  260. Mapper, Went and looked at those 2 maps…. You like them?!? I do realy like the purple! Questions, whats with the letters all over the Missouri one? (AA U DD ect) I could’nt find the info in the Key or anywhere else on the front (did’nt take the time to load the back) Boy that map is detailed and small I had to blow it up to 200% to really be able to read it, I would think that you would be able to get lost much easier, in a dark car… And the Tenn one uses alot of Pink/Red I thought that was a no no? Not trying to be picky or critical, just trying to learn. So, are all 2 lane and multi lane roads always in red? And I can’t find any warning boxes to see what they should look like, where can I find a good one?
    Thanks, GREAT Job!

  261. Thank you to ALL of you. Really, I do appreciate each and every one of you. I agree that this site has become strange over the past week or so, but I continue to read “religiously.” I am learning from every poster here, even if they are posting negatively about me. I don’t mind reading it, I mind not being able to respond to it. I understand the reasons behind the “gag order,” and I have respected that. I have confidence in the report that will (hopefully) soon be released.
    As I mentioned, I appreciate all of your opinions, good and bad. I would hate to see anyone afraid to post because of the sensitivity here. I will not deny that some of the comments are hurtful, but they are expected. That doesn’t make them necessarily wrong. Perhaps the delivery was wrong, but not the opinion. If I see something hurtful, I may say a bad word to my screen and move along. If there has been an issue between myself and someone directly involved in this search, I have tried to meet face to face and eliminate miscommunication. That’s the best that I can do. Am I emotional? Of course. Is that a personality flaw, maybe. It is however my personality. I don’t feel the need to apologize for that.
    The point of my comment is only this..please continue to feel free to discuss ALL of your opinions, solutions, ideas without so much worry about those of us reading. We have the ability to stay away from here if we don’t want to read it. I personally have been trying to weed out some of the questions and ideas to make improvements, it’s just been more difficult to find those lately. I continue to try.
    This has been a long and tough month and a half. We have a long way to go. Remember that this is a process. Let’s not tear each other apart and lose sight of the reason we all came to Joe’s to begin with…

  262. JoCo, well said! I am glad you are able to continue to read the comments, it’s a healthy way of working through the feelings that come with your profession. You have demonstrated fortitude and integrity here, and your earlier input and continuing presence and comments are very much appreciated. I’ve seen many of the sites on the net dealing with this subject, and Joe’s is by far the best!

  263. JoCoSAR – Thank you so much for continuing to share as you able at this point. There really have been a lot of good things come from this site, and we appreciate all that you and others have contributed. The open minded attitude that is expressed by you and so many others is really wonderful to see. Thank you for the eloquent words.

  264. JoCoSAR,
    I believe you have done a wonderful job handling this. well for a woman anyway, 🙄
    If it had me, I’d probably be sitting in the corner talking to the wallpaper and expecting it to answer.

  265. Welcome Tim Barber. (just thanks for posting)

    Seems like we are in a period of grinding up the truth until another report comes in.

    DetMike’s report. excellent work- day and night on this search. A solid professional at work, who made a positive difference. Thanks.

  266. 344/JoCoSar: Reader’s Digest Condensed Version – Don’t let this become – Joe? DUCK!! – as one posted dubbed it? 😛
    Thank you so much for being & contributing here, duct tape and all.

  267. mapper – Do you know of a state that has a better highway map?

    I just glanced at several that I have, Indiana and South Dakota. Washington is available on line.

    On the main part of the map, labels for roads other than federal and state numbers are rare. These are, after all, state highway maps, issued by the state highway department. They should highlight the roads which are that department’s responsibility.

    Site maps on the other do give names for selected city and county roads. South Dakota has symbols and numbers for forest service and BIA roads on the map that focuses on the Black Hills. SD also has 16 road categories, all the way down to ‘unimproved other’.

    Washington names selected FS roads, particularly ones around Mt St Helens (e.g. FS 25, 23, 90). Written parallel to the road are the words ‘Closed in Winter’. I don’t see FS names (nor county road names) in other parts of the state. So these were added to deal with potential problems in an area with heavy tourist traffic.

    However, that warning did not keep a Washington resident from getting stranded in snow for two weeks on one of these roads. Right before the Kims got stuck a Bainbridge Island man was stuck on FS23 (Gifford Pinchot NF) while trying to drive to a star gazing event in Trout Lake. He was found by volunteers on snow mobiles. He stuck with the car, nibbling rice crackers and keeping warm in his sleeping bag.

    A nice feature of the Washington map is low key shading that indicates topography. County lines are still there, but in a distinct dashing that does not obscure roads.

    On the ODOT map there is another ‘closed in winter’ warning on an unnamed road that branches off of US 199 and runs into California. This was added in the 2003 edition. California’s map highlights this road as scenic, but also writes ‘(closed in winter)’ along it. California also has a number state highways that are closed in winter – 4, 108 and 120 crossing the Sierras. Some of those are little better than paved versions of historic wagon roads. 108 for example has 26% grades, and 4 is nearly one lane in places. I don’t see any FS road numbers on the California map, though there may be a few county numbers.

    Writing ‘closed’ along a road probably is clearer than ODOT’s box. Still, what could the warning box on the ODOT map refer to except the through road from Galice to Agness. It certainly doesn’t apply to the county line or to Indigo Ck.

    However I don’t think the lack of warnings and information on the ODOT was critical in this case. I read someplace that Kims were experienced car-campers; in fact that they had met via that activity. So they must have been familiar with the pros and cons of using state maps to get to places in the national forests. They must also have been familiar with winter closures of roads.

    Overall, I would say the ODOT map has the same sort of information that other state maps have, and the same quality of cartography.


  268. Oregon State Sheriff’s Association (OSSA)

    Looking back, the critical days in the Kim search were the Friday and Saturday. By then it was plainly evident by the Kims were lost somewhere between Roseburg and Gold Beach. JoCo had to be a prime search target at that point. SAR is a county responsibility. A “sheriff” is the person ultimately responsible for the coordination and the leadership of the county SAR effort. The JoCo sheriff was nowhere to be seen. His underling was inept. The search failed.

    Now who is going to tell us like it really was? A bunch of sheriffs. Really, are they going to admit that two of their special own failed so damn miserably?

    We’ll soon see.

  269. Paulj

    I disagree, thats all I have time to say right now. I think it could be better, and wether or not it has anything to do with this case, that is my assesment.

    As for roads with no names, if they dont have time to include the name, which is not difficult, dont include the road, if its not their responsiblity (if this is your argument).

    I’m not here to put down other cartographers. Have I seen better, yes? Can it be better, yes. Have I done better…yes. I dont have time to look all of them up and point them out to you.

    But the decision ultimatley lies with the ODOT if they want to improve.

    Those are my conerns and recommendations and thats that. If anyone else wants to expand on them or has a difference of opinion that is fine with me. But you wont see me changing my mind unless ODOT says….we are not going to change that and this is why.

    My assesment is based on my education and experience, not on my opinion.

  270. ODOT has a picture of the governor, along with the obligatory personal welcoming message. There are also phone numbers for the state GIS unit, a (800) ASK-ODOT number, and a source for bicycling maps.

    In addition that state has a good online ‘Trip Check’ site, and a 511 information line. Not surprisingly, road condition information from these sources is limited to numbered state highways and associated passes.


  271. Paulj

    exactly, and the tripcheck includes bear camp in the map, and not an x to say that it is closed, because its not their responsibility.

    See the letter from Bob Holenbeck.

    Do you think I am trying to trash Oregon? I am not. And whatever is on the back of the map, or the fine print, I am not paying attention to.

    We are trained to communicate. It may be your opinion that someone will know a county is not an unpaved road, but if we designed maps without taking into account things that WILL confuse people, it would be a disaster.

    Now, I must get back to doing just that.

    Thanks for your comments.

  272. (353) Kip I am trying to keep an open mind about it. I think the old days of the blue wall of silence (or whatever they called it) are long gone.

    At least they are making an effort to document it and then share it with the public. I think it is appropriate because tax dollars are used to pay for their services.

    We will see and in fact it might even be more critical of their own so as not to have an air of shielding – the stigma they have been fighting so long to get over.

  273. Tara EXCELLENT points, thank you!
    Perhaps we should curtail the unnecessary arguing about inconsequential things and go back to finding solutions…

    P.S. Tara … please run for President on this platform …

    JoCoSAR also great of you to support the open talk here. You have really been great during what has clearly been a very emotional and difficult set of experiences.

    RE: Stealing content – a complex topic. Mapper, my view is that you ‘own’ your own work and your comments here whether you identify it by your own name or not. Also, if somebody slaps a copyright on another’s writing it DOES NOT generally have much meaning in my experience.

    However there is a big debate now about who owns what online stuff and a lot of this will wash out in the courts. e.g. does Google “own” the list of searches you made at their site? They do store *every single one*. The Government also generally has access to your search queries, emails, etc though I don’t understand the all the nuances of the Government’s “Carnivore” project.

  274. Laurie

    Sorry, missed your post.

    Well…okay. Red…its okay to use it, and it seems to be the color of choice for us highways (wouldnt be mine but that is fine). Its more about contrast. If they use too much of that color, which they do, and then use the same for warnings….it blends.

    As for missouri and Tenn….there are things I like about the two maps but not everything. If I find the perfect map or one I really like I will post it for you!

    I’m kinda busy at the moment but I will try to do that soon.

  275. [358] — I can picture these guys sitting around a large round table, cig smoke, sleeves rolled up…. at work. The thorough, professional interviewing… done. The ‘facts’ are in and on the table. Now for the editing. What is said and what is ‘omitted’. What is ‘deemed’ confidential & conveniently excluded. How is this blooper steered (stirred?) around.

    The OSSA report.. Expect undamning words and slant.

  276. More about ownership –

    * The Portland Police document final edition we have linked up through Maggie’s website was scanned by the Portland Police Bureau and is “public domain” meaning it can’t be “owned” by anybody. However it was thanks to Maggie and Det. Mike’s efforts that this is available and we may have helped demonstrate that these pdf versions are a good way to distribute documents quickly to a large number of people.

    * There is no technical way to prevent people from taking comments or ideas here (or pretty much anywhere online) and placing them elsewhere. IP blocking (which prevents a person from accessing a site) is easy to bypass and not available to me unless I reconfigured this blog on my own server, and I’m not going to do that at this time. However stealing people’s content is “illegal” in most cases, and I think the best approach if you feel you’ve been seriously wronged is 1) Contact the offending site and ask them to pull your content within 24 hours 2) Contact the ISP (web host) of the offending site explaining you think they are facilitating copyright violations. 3)Take legal action.

  277. Wow. Joe, thanks for all that. It is something that tugged at me a bit, but in this case it doesn’t bother me much. But still….VERY good to know!

  278. Copyright is a real issue for me. It’s not the money that matters to me, but the principle. I don’t steal anything, at least not knowingly. You can’t copyright an idea. You can’t copyright the news. You cannot copyright a public document.

    So, I would appreciate it if those who think we have “stolen” anything would give a list of exactly what we took, bearing in mind that news, ideas and public records are not copyrightable.

    I realize that the existence of our site has irritated your group, as did my attempt to ask Detective Weinstein for an explanation of his having defamed the Hotel Lucia for not handing over information that he already possessed. Still, none of those disagreements justifies an unwarranted accusation of “theft” aimed at me or our site.

    So, please justify your accusationn with facts. Thanks.

  279. Theres a lot of things I dont have time for this afternoon Charles and that is one of them. Good luck with your site.

  280. mapper, so you only have time to make accusations, but not the time to justify them with facts? This speaks volumes of you and of this site.

  281. (365) Don’t go there mapper. What speaks volumes is how much traffic is here and who is here.

    Interesting how he has to keep scouring our site for the next great thing!

    Sometimes it just isn’t fun being in second place.

  282. I posted here about the “theft” allegation because no one has contacted us directly. If we have “stolen” any copyrightable material — even if it wasn’t copyrighted to begin with — we’ll remove it from our site.

    But you MUST tell us what the material is. We are not mindreaders.

  283. 364 – If you did secure your own scanned copy of the Portland Police Bureau Missing Persons Report through different means than the one I posted, then please disregard below.

    If you did copy the file I posted to my website, then it would be the right thing to do to credit Joe’s blog for making it available because Joe, Det Mike and I spent many hours (and well into the wee hours with a flurry of activity in the 24 hours between old and new) in order to make it available. I did this gladly, and you do not legally owe that to Joe’s blog (I’m aware that it’s public domain), but it would be the right thing to do, in my opinion, to give credit.

    This is all I have to say to you at this time. Commitments will likely be keeping me away for much of the afternoon.

  284. mapper, eons ago (in the blog world) didnt you recommend placing simple you are here maps along the BC route? was it someone else? I cant remember. Whoever it was, did it get put on the suggestions page?

  285. also, I was wondering if we ever found an answer to who was in charge of air traffic for the SAR mission. who would have the role of granting flight permissions and general control of the air traffic. SOrry if we already answered this, I just cant remember.

  286. Maggie, a public document is not copyrightable, therefore there was no “theft” involved.

    Folks, by accusing me and our site of “theft,” you’ve opened yourselves to some real problems. I’m putting each person who makes such an allegation on notice that I consider it defamatory; that I object to it; that I consider it harmful to my reputation and activities, current and future.

    I’ve contacted Joseph Hunkins to request that he follow through by cautioning each of you that an allegation of “theft” must be either specified or removed.

    I will add that if you accuse me of theft and specify your allegation, but the activity isn’t in fact “theft,” then you must retract the allegation. I’m not going to take this lightly.

  287. Another way to protect your photos, maps and even PDF’s you can watermark them.

    Also if somebody does have a real concern about their material I will ask someone from my legal team to take your questions. Just email me and I wll put you in touch.

    Getting your questions answered will not cost you anything.

  288. Addendum to my post #372: By “theft,” I mean the word itself or its equivalents. So don’t think you can rummage through a Theasaurus and say it a different way. Consider yourselves warned.

  289. [372] — “I’m putting each person who makes such an allegation on notice” … hahahaha, or as Glenn might say: L O L !!

  290. Dude, you stole peoples’ work to get information online, without any acknowledgement to them. Yeah, it’s public record. Yeah, it’s not copyrighted. You stole their work, not the material. It’s bad form.

  291. Tara

    Susan brought up the “you are here maps” and I seconded it highly!! there was a lot of discussion here and when I get around to it, I would like to post something about that to the suggestions page as well.

  292. [378] — I was unaware that Spencer Kim had questioned the Oregon authorities’ “training for search-and-rescue operations and accuses them of having no clear sense of their available resources and not fully understanding the procedures necessary to conduct an effective, well-coordinated search-and-rescue operation.” … as stated in the referenced newspaper article.

    Is this true?

  293. 382- I personally haven’t been questioned….I was just referencing the article for ya’ll

  294. 372 – Thank you, Charles for clarifying. I did not mention copyright or theft (you did) about a public domain document. I was careful to state that you have no legal obligation to do what most folks would consider to be the right thing. You have made your choice. I’ll leave it at that. You’re welcome.

  295. [378] — “Which is an insult to the good people who risked their lives to look for the Kim family.”

    If what Spencer Kim is allegedly to have [382] said is true and he is right, then revealing the truth should not be considered an “insult” ..imo

  296. Folks, by accusing me and our site of “theft,” you’ve opened yourselves to some real problems. I’m putting each person who makes such an allegation on notice that I consider it defamatory; that I object to it; that I consider it harmful to my reputation and activities, current and future.

    I’ve contacted Joseph Hunkins to request that he follow through by cautioning each of you that an allegation of “theft” must be either specified or removed.

    I will add that if you accuse me of theft and specify your allegation, but the activity isn’t in fact “theft,” then you must retract the allegation. I’m not going to take this lightly.


    Clearly any references that have been made here to “theft” with respect to your website are using the term loosely and in fairly typical internet fashion to mean that you may have taken advantage of the work of others without sufficient attribution.

    I do not appreciate your threatening tone. You are not welcome here anymore.

    In fairness I’ll probably allow you to respond to this comment but my plan is to delete all comments from you effective after this point.

    Rather than shed light on things you have chilled the debate, the tone, and the dialog about the Kim Story. This seems an odd objective for the journalistic veteran you claim to be.

  297. Now CW is threatening to sue people? He seems bent on destroying this blog. Why can’t he just go play on his own site and leave this one alone? Who is going to join in with threats like that?

  298. He must be trying to overcompensate for the lack of something…but I am purely speculating!

    wink wink nudge nudge


  299. joeduck, we can go around and around on all sorts of things. I’m not going to do that. You and your group should know that libel law couldn’t possibly be clearer with respect to accusing someone of theft.

    Such accusations are prima facie libelous. I’ll decide at a later time whether or not to take further action. I contacted you, and warned everyone here, to preserve my rights under the law. I’m not a lawyer, but I’m pretty familiar with the rules. You’d do yourself a favor if you were too.

    Criticize me and our site all you want, but even if you don’t care about fairness or facts for your own good you should steer clear of libel.

  300. Joeduck, I would vote to delete all of his posts, including 391 and the empty threats. It really is poisoning the atmosphere. (obviously up to you.)

  301. 391: SNARLS – I’m shaking in my boots with uncontrollable fear!!! For the record, I used the word “stealing” in my post 328. As Joe alluded to above, I meant the word loosely and was referencing your tactless “borrowing” of Maggies hard work without attribution. Your bullying and intimidation scare me not at all. Go back to your sandbox.

  302. Didn’t Pac once tell us how familiar he was with libel?

    Interesting how someone can label someone as negligence in a conclusions and summary part of a narrative and not consider that libel.

    As always the CW double standard at work…

  303. 378/RRR: There were four letters in the opinion section of today’s Oregonian saying the same thing to varying degrees.

  304. CW, Dude! Just when I was hoping for a dull moment around here!

    Charles I’m very familiar with online legalities. I’ve sent you my contact information and happy to take any calls from your lawyer. Note however that based on my professional experience with online legalities your lawyer will probably advise you to … chill out!

    Unfortunately that advise may wind up costing you about $250.00 which would be better spent as a charitible donation.

    Joy – I’m thinking about doing that. Ha, better wait for Kip to read them first?

  305. 395/RRR: I tried to find the link, no luck. They were letters to the editor in response to the Washington Post op-ed letter, 4 of them, largely defending SAR, National Guard, Josephine County, etc, in the print edition.

  306. 393/Clarification: for the record, the word “Snarls” was shamelessly lifted by me from another posters private e-mail. It has since been both copyrighted and watermarked and usage of said term requires immediate payment of royalties. Payment is $1 per usage. Make your check or money order payable to Josephine County Search & Rescue or legal action will ensue. Thank you very much. :mrgreen: We now return you to our regularly schedule programming.

  307. Judge Joe. Hunh. There’s something about that I just… can’t get my head around. 😉


    There are a couple of other blogs, or blog-descended interactive sites, that are known for censoring or selectively moderating posts.

    Groklaw, has a long and sometime contenious history of censorship. PJ is not at all hesitant to delete posts and ban posters. This has given rise to a small, scruffy, but evidently proud band of “Bitter Groklaw Exiles,” or BGEs.

    Groklaw isn’t really a blog any more, it’s a special-purpose community site that examines some aspects of the law applied to open-source software. Despite the sometimes heavy-handed moderation, it is flourishing and has become a legitimate player in its niche.

    Minimsft, is a selectively moderated site. I think the original impetus here was a contentious subject — the blogger is writing about internal HR issues at Microsoft. There’s a parallel site where the “cutting room floor” comments go for anyone who wants to see them.

    My own feeling is that it’s a good compromise, as long as the burden on the actual blogger doesn’t become too heavy.

  308. orygungirl 279 paul 282 Thanks for the bear info. Reminded me of the story about “Windfall” the bear in Allegeny. I don’t know how much scouting around they did after they got stuck, but if they didn’t do much exploring maybe that’s why. Just something I wondered about.

  309. 😀 Attention 😀
    Some of the numbers people have used are off by ONE because comment moderation places comments in time sequence so they change the numbers.

    SO…best to use the normal blog convention of a person’s name and RE: or italics for best results.

    FYI I will try to fix the numbers on this page and will probably handle moderated comments differently from now on, so I think the numbering convention should work correctly from this point on.

  310. laurie and Paulj

    Well, I havn’t looked at them all (or even half probably), but I just did a little looking and I have to say my favorite so far is The Montana DOT map, even with all the pink for general use. I like the way the counties are symbolized, and the gravel roads, and unsurfaced roads have a good symbology and warning in the legend. They also have lots of good info in text, places where people will read it (ie, at the border and near yellowstone). I have not checked out washington yet. But it is good to look at states with similiar issues to oregon (lots of wilderness and topography).

    I definitley just wanted to make the point though, that not all states do it the same, there are not a lot of hard fast rules, and there might be lessons to be learned elsewhere instead of recreating the wheel.

    but of course…I am sure they would give them credit… 🙂

  311. What is the OSSA? From: —

    “…The mission of the Oregon State Sheriffs’ Association is to promote, protect, preserve, enhance and support the office of Sheriff…

    Major goals which they are constantly striving to attain:
    – maintaining a role of sheriff as the chief law enforcement officer in the county…
    – developing and maintaining a public image that will permit the citizens to have confidence in the sheriff’s ability to meet modern police problems…
    – working together to… meet the challenges collectively…”

    >>> am impatiently awaiting the unbiased OSSA report..

  312. Tara asked about ‘who was in charge of air traffic for the SAR mission.’

    Ultimately the FAA is in charge. They have many regulations regarding air traffic. In addition they issue TFRs, Temporary Flight Restrictions. According to an entry on by LynnS, ‘A TFR is used to restrict aircraft operations within designated areas to separate “non-participating” aircraft from those engaged in official activities, including search-and-rescue operations’.

    I’ve also see reference to a MFR tower (Medford?) keeping track of air traffic and assigning altitudes, etc. A licensed pilot would be familiar with all these procedures and regulations.


  313. Glenn 319/340.
    Sorry but you are wrong about who offered to meet and speak, Tim Barber is right. I extended the olive branch after admittedly jumping Sara a little hard about her “he has changed his story several times” statement. She effectively called me a liar without using the exact word.
    I used the literal word and you are making it about semantics. I overreacted. Of course keep in mind I was a little defensive being brought to the site because I was told I was being smeared.
    After Phil came here to back up the fact that from the beginning I told him before I took CNN out to the location I was going to donate it. He then offered to coordinate a meet with Sara and I.
    \I am confused as to why you are so hung up on the money thing. That was for two days work and my personal vehicles wear and tear taking people to a location where someone who didn’t know the area just died.
    Just one more little fact I haven’t even returned the paperwork from CNN for payment as I may just forget it if you would feel better. Of course then the folks I was going to donate to would just be deprived.
    How about you match dollar for dollar all I donate?
    You know put up or?
    Maggie and Frances thanks for your comments you are fair in you assumptions and interpretations.
    337/ tim barber was also correct in his viewing of what led up to our meeting.
    And please keep me informed about that $50k offer from CNN
    I could donate that to our local SAR.
    Joe Duck, sorry if I am off subject but I don’t park on this site and need to respond to speculation as I have time.

  314. [404] — Lisa… (sad) lyrics from a very popular song with many our youngers:

    “…now we see everything that’s going wrong
    with the world and those who lead it
    we just feel like we don’t have the means
    to rise above and beat it…”

    snippet from: We don’t have the means to make change… John Mayer

  315. John thank you for the comment, and I did not mean my comment above it to mean that people can’t or shouldn’t get serious about attempting to clear up the truth. That is very serious and important business.

    My “Rise above!” comment was just supposed to a general humorous reference to some of the less consequential issues
    people are spending energy on.

  316. Sorry if I killed the topic seems like you all split. I have to go feed livestock and fill water. It’s gonna freeze again. Oh yeah it never thawed!!!

  317. Lisa we are good. Glenn kinda waffles pretty hard and like the famous “Joe Friday from Hawaii 5-0 said.
    “Just the facts Maam” LOL

  318. Well, Kip all I can say is, I think most of us are here to try to do something positive!

    Joe Duck has given us the means!

    Thank you Joe!

  319. (406) Hi John, thanks for posting again. I am not hung up on the money thing. You answered the questions and I am quite satisified. Thank you again.

    I wasn’t waffling today – sorry if it seemed that way – I was trying to answer a post from someone else. Yes I understand you overreacted…etc. No biggie we all do.

    So no problem here I hope you are no longer perceiving an issue as this point.

    Thanks again for participating your input is very important and going to be even more important in the future and personally I look forward to it.

  320. 410- Thank you John, and no offense glenn (I like you and I think you are a good man) – but your ‘versions’ on this matter have been bugging me with their bias and lack of accuracy, according to all the statements that have been made by both parties. I had kind of given up, but I’m glad John is here.

    :mr green: That’s for you glenn because I like you even though I disagree with you on these matters.

  321. John, you didn’t kill the topic, it’s just a lull while people reload (kidding). The other night, there were no posts for a few hours, and I thought we’d broken something. Your participation is most appreciated, so don’t give up!

  322. John – you are always welcome here and so is JoCoSAR of course.

    I’m chiming in with Kati’s Dad to suggest in my opinion you *should* take the CNN money and not feel bad about that at all. If you wind up donating it to a good cause that’s even better.

  323. John, did I give you the impression in my email that you were being smeared or are you referring to another invitation? please let me know.

  324. 419 – Tara, I’m not a big coffee drinker, but since we don’t have any Dutch Bros. in So. Calif. that I can find, I must have it! It’s the principle of the thing, now. One of my usual missions to find the unfindable. Not to mention you all talking up how good it is. Is there a good place to order it online?

  325. sweet beans!!! this is so good!…. thanks to all for peer pressuring me into buying this coffee. yum!

  326. (417) Joe, John, Frances, Lisa, everybody!!!

    I don’t care that John James got paid. I have said this time and time again.

    Asking if he got paid was a fair and legitimate question!

    The $50k John was a hypothetical scenario to create thinking about it and it was directed to Frances.

    Lastly Frances the next time you run out of Dutch Bros – give me a call I will get some sent to you immediately so we don’t have to go over all of this again. 🙂

  327. laurie

    this link should take you directly to a zoomed in image of a pdf of the montana state map. It’s of a pass and a warning. Its not exactly the way I would do it, or perfect. But this gives you an example of what I would consider, at least better.

    The name of the pass is referenced in the warning, and its pretty clear what the warning is referring to. Though, like I said, not perfect, but different and always good to look at what other people in the neighborhood are doing.

  328. ‘Tis a thing when a smiley blooms
    On a blog across a hundred(?) rooms,
    In a room across a blog tired face,
    ‘Tis a smile for the human race!

    Awww… 🙂 !

  329. Paul & Tara, thanks, I had gone to their site once but missed the part where you could order. Back to visit it again…. It appears to be a prerequisite for posting coherently, but then I won’t have any excuses for goofing up my posts (except Fred The Cat).

  330. I agree that the Montana map looks pretty good. However the east, dominated by privately owned ranches is clearer than the west with a mix of private, national forest and national park.

    In the south there is a boxed notation ‘Beartooth Pass is closed in winter’. I encountered snow on that pass when I crossed it in September a couple of years ago. Being aware of the passes reputation I kept a keen eye on the weather forecasts, and was prepared to take another route if it was closed.

    In the Bitterroots there is a state route 38 which partly dashed (gravel?) with a ‘Shalkaho Pass is closed in winter warning’, and pass height information. Including the road or pass name in the closure warning is a good idea.

    The winter closure warning for Going to the Sun in Glacier NP is on the edge of the map in Canada. However there are other roads into the park that are routinely closed as well.

    The map also does not give any indication that US89 from Browning to St Mary (next to Glacier) is a very curvy road, even though it is 2 lane paved. Next time I go through there I’ll probably choose the longer 464 route.

    Something that complicates map choices for Oregon is the diversity of the state. Portland south to Eugene is an urban and farming corridor. On both sides of that are mountains with a mix of paved and gravel FS roads and a few state highways. FS and county roads are essential to get to many of the popular recreational activities. The eastern half is the ‘outback’, with large empty areas, and many BLM gravel roads (and distances between junctions on the order of 50 miles).

    Missouri labels a number of county roads, but there (as in Wisconsin) county roads use a compact one or two letter labeling scheme.


  331. 427- Silly but fun, and meant in fondness…

    alternate last line:

    ‘Tis a smile that loves it’s place!

  332. Paulj,

    I’m not critiquing the whole map (montana), and I’m not endorsing it. I’m not even saying if what it is saying is true. I would probably do the whole thing differently if it were me.

    Just trying to offer some points of reference and another design option, because Laurie asked.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

  333. Meanwhile, Kip, Det. Mike W went out of his way to write about how truly thorough, objective, and professinal the OSSA report will be – he’s seen some of the work they’re doing. They know that their investigative work is going to be scrutinized by other professionals who know what to look for – I think they want to do a really excellent job. We shall see…

  334. Tara,
    No you didn’t say the smear thing. I touched base with a third party to see if I should waste the energy and they felt it might merit a peek based on what they had read.
    Sorry for the confusion. You would think I would learn after the Rogueriverrat “incident”

  335. John – is there anything else we can do to help with the signs if we can’t come there to help put them in ourselves?

  336. Glenn,
    I would like you to research the whole Polygraph thing, I am going to run it by my uncle in law. He is a District court judge. I know a poly is admissable in civil law and I believe it to be admissable in criminal. You just can’t be forced to take one but if you do then the “other side” has the right to the results even if you choose not to present it yourself.
    I will research and get back to you.
    Thanks for the tip on the tack in the shoe. Guess I don’t read enought Detective Novels LOL

  337. If they were to expand the ‘closed in winter’ label on the ODOT map, what would be a good wording? ‘FS 23 is closed in winter’? ‘Bear Camp Road is closed in winter’? 4 closure signs are associated with FS23. I saw Bear Camp on only one sign.

    I imagine there are several good snow closure signs at the Agness end. But I wonder how good the labeling is from the FS23/BLM junction east to Galice? There are a couple of alternatives to the Galice Ck route, Peavine and Chrome Ridge, which are used when there are slide closures on 34-8-36. If I got up to the start of FS23 and found that it was blocked by snow, how easy would it be to find my way back to Galice?


  338. Joe, I heed your warning & am not disrespecting it. If you choose to delete this and ban me, I will accept it. I have struggled all day should I attempt to respond or not, but after re-reading numerous times, I felt I needed to at least attempt to respond. Nor did I post my earlier post without MUCH thought and patience. It was not a post posted out of left field on the spur of the moment. Especially as in the past I have admired Glen so much and usually agree with him nearly 100% and he had brought MUCH to this subject.

    I was responded to and although I have no intention of carrying this forward, I do feel I have the right to respond to what said back to me.

    I raised issues here others were concerned about but were afraid to raise. People have admitted themselves they were now tip-toeing around certain subjects and that was one of the good things about this blog, is people were able to voice a difference of opinion, it was able to be debated, as long as that difference of opinion was stated in a reasonably sane and respectful manner without personal attacks.

    IP blocking – I tried to state this in a manner which showed I did not know one way or the other if this was possible, but if it was, I felt it should be taken into consideration as I understand that posting on an open blog the comments are for anyone to take. I was concerned because of the trolling and those involved directly in the case have graciously posted here of their own free will and have been able to answer a few questions and after the gag order is lifted, will be free to answer more, should they so choose. Will they choose to or not knowing in all likelyhood their post will possibly be taken and possibility used on other sites with possible misrepresentation & possible ill-intent. I was hoping for a way to some how protect their post so they would continue to feel comfortable posting here. If it is not available or is only available by starting over, then of course that would not be feasible. I was not trying to tell Joe how to run his site and what he should and shouldn’t do with it.

    Glen infers I defend Charles posting on here. Please point out ONE time where I have EVER defended someone posting whose posting has been rude, attacking, posting simply to stir up trouble, etc. For the record, I was all for Charles, Pac & Dee being banned, not because they raised different points of view, but because of the afore mentioned reasons.

    #322 – Glen, should John James get paid a million dollars, do a movie and book deal and a stage play, I would not respect him for it, but it would be his right to do so nor would I think it would take away from his credibility of his actions in this case. I re-state – I had NO problem with your asking the questions to clear up info but I did find your method of asking in attack mode. John James clearly stated he was INVITED to come on here and posted of his own free will. You want the truth, but when someone comes on to give their version, unless it agrees with how you think they are attacked. This is NOT how you used to be Glen, what happened?

    The series of events I posted regarding John James and Sara have been outlined by Tim in post #337 and verified by John James in post #406.

    Regarding Sara’s post #344 – I found that a very intelligent, considerate gracious & mature post.

    When one post here in a manner as Charles, Pac & Dee, I do not support their being allowed to continue to post, but when one simply post a difference of opinion or are sharing their viewpoint or sharing the actual facts that happened with them, as long as they are posting in an appropriate manner, even if it’s not an agreeable opinion or viewpoint, they should be allowed to post and for their words not to be misconstrued or attacked. They also should be allowed to be asked questions in an appropriate manner.

    Asking questions regarding this mission is OK when there is a gag order on every aspect & person BUT Sara R. I am NOT attacking Sara R. As stated, there is much to be learned when the report comes out, but if one is going to stop asking questions because there is a gag order in place, then no questions regarding any aspect or person should be allowed. I repeat, I am NOT attacking or singling out Sara. I am VERY sorry Sara is ill, and I don’t want this to make her more ill, but the fact is SHE was a part of the SAR, she herself has said she doesn’t mind the questions.

    John, take the &Q# money & feel no remorse about it. You provided a SERVICE not an interview. Charge them how much your choose. Nor would I feel negatively if you took money for an interview as those who would be doing the interview would surely be using your interview to make money off of you.

    Madeline, am so glad your husband is home. Hospitals stays are exhausting, understatement. It always amazes me how the expect people in the hospital to get well when their poking, prodding, and everything else every few minutes.

    Quickly read the last several post before I post this: Glen, I do like you and neither am I attacking you, I just think you need to chill a bit.

    Glen, are you impling my problem is I ran out of Dutch Brothers? ::):

    OK, Joe, I will not bring this up again. I think I have sufficiently made my points and if those are not clear now, nothing more I can say will make them any more clear & if you tell me not to return, I will accept that.
    As I said, others have shared my concerns, I just have ventured out from beneath the cover of protection in stating the concerns.

  339. Lisa,
    Probably cash, but that may be a non issue with the attention this is getting. I just threw out the labor thing as an opportunity for those that are sorta local but maybe don’t have the disposable finances.
    I will try to keep you guys informed about those needs.
    There is no way i would have anyone forward donations to me that would hit the proverbial hornets nest with a stick.

  340. Frances! Good post and I bet I speak for many people saying it’s nice to have you (back) here!

    See, you .. just … can’t … leave!?

    Maybe this is no longer Joe’s Bar, it’s the Hotel California, where: you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave!

  341. A quick personal note since there seems to be a fixation on Dutch Bros. I used to play Racquetball years a go with Dane Boersma. He said to me one time. “hey John we are gonna start this Coffee stand thing do you want to invest any money”. In my infinite wisdom I said “Dane who is gonna waste good money buying overpriced Foo Foo coffee”
    Call me a Dumba$$ cause I didn’t get in on the ground floor

  342. John – I’m happy to volunteer on the “new sign” work crew – in fact if the BLM and USFS could nail down some dates for that project we might be able to promote that here at the blog before the attention starts to die down.

  343. I don’t mean to take sides, but these are issues that interest me generally (lie detector tests) and specifically (again I was going to bring it up before but had kind of given up – but I do think it’s important).

    I was thinking earlier, a polygraph is not something to be taken lightly.

    And I know that when administered by quality professionals they have a very high percentage of accuracy, whether or not they are court admissible.

    There’s really almost nothing worse generally speaking than
    being accused of lying when you’re telling the truth.

  344. Thank you Joe, for letting me post. I greatly appreciate it.

    Hotel CA…
    sigh so very true… I am a weak person…

    wait, I know Joe has some type of subliminal message attached to those reading his blog so that we can’t leave even when we try to 🙂

  345. Joe Duck I am gonna call you and meet in the near future for that Lunch/coffee offer.
    The road engineer said late January first of February for their focus group kinda thing so I am sure actual project would be Mid-summer. I may just give everyone his contact info and then maybe he can put them on a notice of project thing.

  346. 449/ read the success story and then throw stones at me, I will deserve those I assure you

  347. My friend just informed me they were building one in arizona, next to her. I am so jealous!

  348. John sounds great. It would be good for him to start “signing up” people now so they have a good crew to call up when needed.

    Joe has some type of subliminal message attached to those reading his blog

    It’s not me Frances, it’s all those dang smilies! They are controlling … everybody.

  349. for those of you out of the area they base their current business plan on expansion through franchising. You can buy a turn key operation as in the building the coffe equiptment blah blah blah and they will finance you

  350. Joeduck I will get his blessing to provide his contact info and let it run from there

  351. But if we work together we gotta enjoy a good OREGON microbrew at the end of the work day no coffee

  352. (453) John, interesting about Dutch Bros…a friend of mine was offered 4 states of the Krispy Kreme franchise when they got started…I still hear about!

  353. “From the time our web site went live, I offered an olive branch. I proposed at least Peaceful Coexistance. I had hoped for Cooperation since both of our web sites have similar goals. It appears that many of you have chosen not to adopt a coorperative attitude with our web site, or even to consider “peaceful coexistance”. Once again, I remind you that I am NOT a mindless clone or worshipper of PacNWer or Charles. That’s just not me. But I have explained that before, and I’ll not do it again.

    I don’t care if you quote our Narrative, link to anything on our site, or even copy maps that are already in the public domain. If I want to “own” anything, I will make that very clear. I do not use anything from here to make money. I use things as a public service. I do not simply come here to find stuff to… “take”. I look all over the web for my information. In fact, I find it hard to even return here lately.

    I want to cooperate, not fight. I also realize that many of you will not open your minds to my message. I’m usually simply ignored here. In my opinion, it is a waste of time and energy to fight instead of moving on to positive pursuits. I have acknowledged Maggie and this blog on link to PPD report on our site. I am choosing the high road.” – Dee

  354. (441) Frances I don’t recall ever saying that you stick up for Volleyball here…

    We will make this clear Paul was the main one doing that. Before Paul goes crazy…I understood your reasons unfortunately your good reasons were wasted on him.

  355. Dee did you just plagerize my “Olive Branch” quote from earlier?????
    I am just kidding trying ease some tension

  356. I don’t really know how many people checking in are local but I think at least a few hundred out of thousands who are reading daily. Of course many are already members of the excellent SAR teams in local counties so they have more than paid their volunteering dues many times over. Of course the problem with getting too many internet folks up there is that you might have to teach them … how to use a …. shovel?

  357. Dee I was just joking, I get accused of trying to be funny all the time when there are over 10,000 real comedians out of work

  358. (439) John, from my experience most LE don’t really like the baggage that comes along with the detector test. Maybe Det. Mike W. can shed some personal perspective on this.

    There are far more effective tools for determining the truth these days. I am sure the ACLU, etc will keep trying to block the technology from being used in criminal cases.

    For the record literally anything and everything is allowed in civil actions. If you have any questions about that just look at what happens in divorce cases – totally outrageous.

    The only detective type books that I have ever read would have been The Hardy Boys when I was a kid and I have seen Scooby Doo a couple of times. 🙂

  359. I will add another quick example:

    My sister lives in Vermont, and early on told me about these two nice guys who converted an old gas station and started making their own ice cream which was really, really

    She bought a little stock, sold it ‘early’ when it got to be
    worth a thousand to pay for a new roof.

    Boy is she is still sorry about that one! [Ben&Jerry’s] 😦

  360. (463) John now that was funny! However I am sure some comment about it will be worked into the narrative.

  361. Of course I am the funniest guy where I am sitting but of course I am by myself at home right now

  362. When I was in fourth grade I wanted to be a private detective. I don’t now, but I guess you might be able to tell I still have a little bit of it in me. 😀

  363. Did you guys here they found the kid that disappeared five days ago and to boot there was a kid who the guy had abducted like 4 years ago

  364. John, do you think there is anything else that can be done locally that could help prevent another case like this?

  365. john, I heard, Im SOOO happy and sickened at the same time that they had to go through that. as a mom, I wouldve died everyday my son wasnt found and at home in his bed at night. I am just soooo relieved they found those boys.

  366. Tara,
    That will be an interesting story especially the kid who was held the four years

  367. Also do you know much about the Finley case? Was that a search and rescue, or they just didn’t know until they found him?

  368. (484) John, He was abducted in 2002 and I think it is pretty close to 5 years and we was held about 60 miles from where he lived.

    Miracle indeed…really impressive that the friend of the child abducted on Monday had a keen sense and good memory – it was key to solving this case.

  369. (486)Now you know why I support involving the media right away. They can bed a PIA but they spread the word fast and furious.

  370. Lisa,
    I never payed attention to the Finley guys name as that was a long time ago but i don’t beleive there was much of a search as nobody relly had a clue where he might even be

  371. I have dial-up so I get behind…

    Yes, Finley – the man on Bear Camp who starved to death
    in his camper.

  372. Did you have any ideas about the best way to look/search when James was missing and they thought he was in the drainage? Or did you have any ideas of where he was – what he might be trying to do, etc.?

  373. I really felt that once James was reported in the drainage it was all over but the crying.
    I have gone down that drainage in optimal weather conditions and it is a bit** at best

  374. (494) John how many hours do you think it took James to get to the location where we was found?

  375. 496 tara.
    I have had the honor of meeting John Rachor and he is just as he appears at face value. He is an absolutely stellar guy

  376. I have a 7 year old laptop, and it seems to be having more problems/errors, because it has gotten too hot too many times from my being on this blog too much! (possibly like some blog participants!)

  377. I beleive he probably entered the drainage on saturday and survived that night and expired mid afternoon sunday

  378. Lisa, common problem. you can order replacement parts to stop that. But I hear to wait to buy a new laptop until the end of this month, new programs…if your thinking of it… just heard… dont know much more.

  379. John Rachor has offered to take me flying with him and I am ready.
    I have known him very casually prior to this

  380. (502) John, Do you have any speculation on why James would have entered the drainage after walking all that distance on the road?

  381. I hear he also has a small fixed wing craft… though it appears (just a guess) that he uses the helicopter more.

  382. 506 glenn
    My pure speculation is that he was simply out of food, absolutely stressed, and totally desperate. And maybe even he had a face to face with the alleged Bear and went down there to avoid crossing the bears path

  383. I think he has a fixed wing. His son is a very accomplished whitewater jet boat racer also.
    They like things with power

  384. (508) John, thanks for your insight your local experience in the area is very helpful. I look forward to someday seeing your lodge and the area myself.

    I need a good rafting trip!

  385. thanks tara!

    but I will probably have to wait longer because I am trying to keep the credit card critters under control…

  386. I’d like to comment about going cross country.
    If you see that you want to go down a drainage to get to a larger class river in the distance. Do not, repeat do not travel the bottom of the smaller drainage if you can see that the ridge above travels the same direction, as it always will, stay up high as long as possible.
    I know this may not apply everywhere but in my part of the country it is gospel.
    Ridges are easier to navigate and you can keep your orientation. You are also easier to spot by air

  387. ….laptop, and it seems to be having more problems/errors, because it has gotten too hot…

    Lisa 7 years may be pushing things, but sometimes heat problems are just from dust accumulation. Dell’s are notorious for this. The remedy is to blow the dust out with compressed air (generally blow it into the holes that are NOT the fan so it goes OUT via the fan vent). Second is to prop the laptop up at the back by a half inch or so to allow better ventilation.

  388. I should probably be going…

    but John if you’re still there, two questions:

    Do you think there should be better signage at the Bear Camp/BLM 34-8-36 fork, and if you do what do you think it should be?

    Also is there a geographical reason why your lodge is called the Black Bar Lodge?

  389. Joe, funny you mention that, Ive been propping my vaio up like crazy! its hilarious! I wish air wouldve fixed mine… alas, I have to order parts… but joe’s right, definately try that as a first step.

  390. Does anyone know how the kims happened to have cigarette lighters with them? They don’t strike me as smokers for some reason, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe part of a small survival kit?

  391. 514/ Lisa
    Absolutely on the signage. And it is gonna happen if I have to do it myself completely.
    Secondly the lodge was named after the original owner who was murdered by another local miner over innaproprite visits with the other miners “squaw” (not my reference about squaw that is a historical term)

  392. 513- Thanks Joe! My fan doesn’t seem to work anymore when it should. But that blows the theory that your subliminal message has to do with how we all should buy new computers so we can blog effortlessly all the time… 😀

    I was beginning to wonder who you were really working for… :mrgreen: !

  393. (520) Lisa, you can by fan rest that your laptop can sit on. Also if your batteries are charged you can run the laptop on A/C without the batteries in (if you lose power you will crash though).

    The combination of the fan rest (less than $30 at staples) and the removal of the batteries might cool down your laptop. If you place the fan rest on your lap you just need to make sure there is enough air space for the fans to work.

  394. 522 maggie -I always carry matches, candle, coffee can etc. I know it wouldn’t be enough in their situation but wondered if maybe they didn’t carry some of these things.

  395. Allright my brain is starting to itch from staring at this LCD. Time for a Brew and pizza pie.
    Adios mi Amigos

  396. Thanks glenn! I did remove the batteries, because they couldn’t hold a charge anymore anyway, but were still causing heating problems, and that helped. Now it’s more of a time management/disc workload issue, that I used to have under control until I came here. And met all of you!

    But that fan rest sounds interesting… thanks for the link!

    And thanks John if you’re still around!

  397. re469Glenn: “John now that was funny! However I am sure some comment about it will be worked into the narrative.

    Comment by glenn | January 12, 2007”

    Joe, I’m sorry, but I do have to respond to Glenn, who seems to be going passive-agressive on me.

    Glenn, like I said in my comment:
    “I also realize that many of you will not open your minds to my message. I’m usually simply ignored here.” Glenn, you shut the door on me, and insulted me with the narrative comment, dismissing me and as always, encouraging others to do the same. You are unforgiving and over-confident. It appears your apparent position in your work place makes it so your underlings never criticize you because they fear you. Therefore you can get by with being rude. You’re always taking jabs at Paul and others. Noone is apparently around you in life to keep you in line, or force you to evaluate your behavior. I’m calling you on it. But I’m sure you will attack me by lumping me in some group of some sort instead of dealing with me individually.

    Joe, I’m sorry. Had to say it.

  398. (530) Thanks for the link Kati’s Dad. I thought the story ended at the banner spot for the memorial fund and then found the rest of the story below it. Nice summary of James as a person and his heritage.

  399. (535) Dee, just to remind you and everyone. You were the one that went overboard on your posts here and drew everybody over to the MT forum and there you made your bed.

    If anyone has forgotten I suggest you review MT again and see what the wonderful djdee said over there about Joe, this forum, all the people here and Kati’s Dad even after she apologized to him here.

    You can’t play both sides – it always catches up to you.

    Whatever has happened you did it to yourself and then you made sure everybody could find it and after we did – we called you on it.

    I have no idea why you would want to draw attention to this again.

  400. 530 – Kati’s Dad, what a nice article. I read on a blog owned by a Korean-American woman while James was still missing that she and her Korean friends almost felt that by being Korean, James might just have a little more boost of Oomph! than someone else. I suppose almost anyone can say something like that about their own cultures or their parents cultures assigning various strengths, but I found it interesting and even sort of amusing the almost tongue-in-cheek way they said it from their perspectives, just believing he had to be OK because he had the Korean spirit. At that point I think most of us hoped that anything would be the difference that would just make James be found alive. Thank you for the article.

    You are all still very much in my thoughts, daily.

  401. re537Glenn: See? Unforgiving. You never forget the “negative”, do you? You’re simply repeating the same thing from oh, what, 2 weeks ago? Sounds like a grudge to me. But I won’t be posting again tonight, if ever. You are bound and determined to keep me as an enemy and to keep this thing negative. And I won’t be staying here to fight about it. I have better things to do.

  402. (539) Dee I forgave you the minute I read it. I have no grudge. You have done what you have done – no one else.

    You created that site with Charles Wilson it really looks like you have the grudge.

    I was hoping you could have come back and posted constructively.

    I really think if you want to discuss you should email me directly out of respect for what we are trying to accomplish here I will not discuss it further.

  403. CMT 530

    The column in Asian Week. Poignant, meaningful writing. Another facet to an American story. Well done, Emil.

  404. 538 Accorording to James what those ladies told you is true. About 3 and 1/2 years ago Sandy and I met Kati, James, and Penelope at the Grand Canyon Rim. James and I hiked the Bright Angel trail together. Although I was in pretty good shape he hiked circles around me. He told me not to feel bad as I lagged behind in slow time. He said that Koreans are known for thier hiking prowess and that they are typically equipped with stout legs being that Korea has a lot of mountainous terrain and are love hiking. It was source of pride for him.

    In thinking of his last and fatal trek, I can’t help but remember those stout Korean legs of his and our hike together, and that thought brings on tears. James was a very good boy and he is sorely missed.

  405. Re: Polygraphs – I’m not sure if the interest in this subject is in general or particular to this case (John James vs. SAR??) Having heard a bit from both sides there (obviously JoCo hasn’t had a chance to fully talk about her side), I’d bet that it’s not a question of anyone lying.

    There are lots of cases where both sides would pass a polygraph, believing their perception of the event and with no malice or guile of any kind. Especially during an emergent situation such as this. You could check an entire group of bank customers and staff who witnessed a robbery, and I’d bet each account is a bit different; everyone can be telling the absolute truth as they saw or recall it.

  406. 530- That’s so beautiful, Kati’s Dad – thank you for sharing that. I don’t know why, but I also feel how great the loss of James is (considering that I didn’t even know him). I think part of the fact that this story has affected so many people has to do with that transcendent quality James had which also showed in the heroic efforts he made. [I think he has a very beautiful soul that will live on with his memory.]

    I don’t know if anyone has thought about anything like this, but I think it would be really moving to have a website where friends and/or family only of James could post any thoughts or feelings they would like to post publicly about him. I think it could be a really moving and beautiful tribute, and it would warm a lot of people’s hearts.

    It’s just an idea, but I have seen so many postings from strangers and so few from people who really knew him. We are lucky to have you here!

    Did you ever see this piece from one of his friends:,72253-0.html?tw=rss.index

    I think I posted the link once before here but it was early on…

  407. Maggie, that made me smile. Thank you. I especially like this line (okay, there were two lines I like but this one is rated “G” 🙂 )
    “makes you just want to clear forests with your bare hands to find that guy.”

    thats exactly how I felt.

  408. 550 – Tara, I went back and noticed that “the bomb” is dropped once, too, so warning siren to any who don’t want to see that word. I thought it was tasteful and said in just the right context, but just in case… 😉

    I can’t believe I was able to re-find that.

  409. kudos Maggie! I loved it! thanks… and in case you didnt notice earlier, I LOVE the coffee.

  410. Maggie, loved the blog story, and I read all of the comments following the entry. With the exception of the last comment, which was particularly disgusting, the comments were very interesting. Again, people were telling what drew them into following the story. In this case, many with Korean heritage attributed it to that, but others mentioned the ages of the children, etc. So many people relate to this story for so many reasons, it’s amazing.

  411. Counting…counting…counting…

    (thinking of Kati’s Dad’s advice)

    (biting lip)

    (Joe Ducktaping my fingers away from keyboard)

    (frantically searching for Dutch Bros)

  412. 556 – Tara, I did see that you enjoyed the Dutch Bros. Yay! I’ve never tried it other than what the friendly folks have brewed for me in their little drive-by huts, but I’d imagine that has to be pretty good. Promise yourself that if you are ever near a Dutch, you will drive by. I can’t believe how friendly they always are at all of the locations I’ve visited.

    558 – Madeleine, it really is quite something how many people have related to this story for such a variety of reasons.

  413. 547- Thank you also, Maggie! I love hearing that perspective!

    550- That’s exactly how I felt tara! I was pacing my floors wanting to get in that drainage and help find him asap!

  414. 559 – Glenn, that’s funny Joe Ducktaping your fingers. When Joe and I were discussing the police reports I referred to them as Joe Duckuments 🙂

    We need a whole new lists for twists on Joe Duck (like the one I think Madeleine said, “Joe, Duck!”)

  415. 546- Thank you Madeleine for that. The interest is more general. But the accuracy and offer came up! That’s true that there can be individual, relative truths. But I think that there are pointed questions that can sometimes be asked of two parties in conflict that can be revealing.
    Still, I don’t think anyone is asking, advocating, or insisting on it here!

    Indeed it is not fool-proof, but they are currently doing brain research to try to find a more fool-proof way of telling if someone is lying! Imagine the implications/applications that could have in the future!
    [Could be useful in some cases! But not in many marriages!
    Not recommended for home use! Watch out teenagers!] 😀

  416. Leland, great try, but don’t expect results. He ceases running his mouth only long enough to change feet.

  417. No, that would be: If a troll speaks on a blog where it knows no one wants to hear it, does the troll make any noise at all?

  418. Pacnwer 568- I get it. Don’t you think you should have some consideration for the mans family? And be a decent man yourself?

  419. 546 – Lisa, OK, you’ve forced me to recall a funny story (some may not find it funny, however). True story, many years ago wheb technology wasn’t king.

    A couple of police officers had a guy in custody who they knew had committed a crime. He’s being interviewed, and it’s not productive. The guy says “Gimmee a lie detector, I didn’t do it”.

    One of the LE obtains a metal colander from the kitchen area, places it upside down over the perpetrator’s head, and ties a string to the Xerox machine into which he inserts a paper on the glass saying “He’s Lying!!!” Every question asked of the man is of course followed by one of the cops pushing the “print” button, then displaying the “result” to the accused. The guy coughed up the info pretty quickly after taking his “lie detector test”.

  420. Pac, you must be lacking for attention. I have noticed through out all of your comments and the attention you get when you post. Just leave…

  421. (making popcorn)

    (going to watch this)

    (thinks leland will need a big beer after this one)

    (…jason returns…)

  422. 549 I can’t remember the event, but James Kim’s response of the moment still lingers in my mind. He said with a consoling smile, “well you have got to have the bad to appreciate the good.”

    Thank you PacNWer, you do fulfill a role.

  423. (572)…ROFL…Let me guess he was one of those got stuck in the chimney will robbing a location

  424. Me thinks some people are just as foolish to take their chances here…but I am just speculating!

  425. Glenn, I was thinking how tempting it is to borrow a Viking Kitty long enough for a sound “Zot!!” (instant troll removal technique). I nominate Hercules, the gigantic kitty who made the news when freed from his being stuck in a dog door. He looks like he would consider trolls to be a mere appetizer.

  426. 546- Thanks Madeleine. That is a funny story, but I think this situation is quite different! This is a good samaritan just trying to defend himself. I don’t know if you were comparing stories, or just telling that story in general.

  427. There once was a WHACK
    Who reduced all discussion into ATTACK
    He ended up only receiving a lot of FLACK
    His name is PAC

    Leland Stamper knows what I am talking about and so does everyone else!

  428. Lisa, this Skype plugin is free: —

    “KishKish Lie Detector you can monitor in real-time the stress level of the person you talked with”

    There’s also a love detector available. Maybe we should try it out calling PacNW !

  429. Anyone in oregon over forty knows who Leland Stamper is. I don’t think anyone expected it to be my actual name. But just in case, it ain’t.

  430. And we were all doing so well at starving the troll of the attention he craved… 😉

    580 – That picture is too true. If I were a man, that would be me sometimes.

  431. 578- That’s a very telling quote of the quality of James’ warmth, character, and insight. Thank you, Kati’s Dad.

  432. Glenn, thank you for disengaging from the flamewar.

    People with fixed opinions about these events get me thinking about the wisdom of the SAR folk who don’t split hairs with rescued people. We can all wonder what was in James’ and Kati’s minds as they drove into the middle of nowhere. But it’s a question that has a hard-edged information-theoretic answer: they did it because they did. If they hadn’t, they’d probably have spent a somewhat discordant night in a random motel off I-5 somewhere. And someone else would have fallen into this trap. It’s happened before, it would happen again… except now people have said “enough is enough.”

    Similar reasoning applies to the coulda, shoulda, woulda thinking that can distort analysis. Should the JoCo Sherrif’s office have looked 20 miles down that road? Or “should” they have looked in a creek for a car that slid off the road? I can’t answer that question. I hope the OSSA report gives all the SAR teams good information that helps them answer it, but they’ll never be perfect. A perfect event — one about which everything is known — must be in the past, information theory tells us. The essence of “present” is imperfection.

    Now, James Kim: I don’t think he would have thought he was a hero. He might have occasionally thought he was a fool. I know I would have. He probably thought most about how to save his family. I hope I would have.

    Foolish mistakes were made, and heroic deeds were done. But to focus on them is to miss the essence of what happened.

    I think this story draws people in because we see ourselves in this chain of little mistakes and misconceptions that ends in that drainage. It seems to make a lot of people angry; angry at the Kims, angry at the SAR folks, angry that things could go so wrong so fast. But they did.

    Enough is enough. We can help fix it.

    Rest in peace, James.

  433. 593/ Maggie – we are indeed feeding the Troll, and we did so well the other day. Anyone old enough out there to remember a Star Trek – the REAL Star Trek, episode about an alien life form that thrived on hate?? It kept creating conflict and the more the conflict thrived the more powerful it became ??

    578/ Katies Dad: YOU, sir, are a class act!! Bravo!!

  434. Lisa, rest assured I was telling the story in general, yikes, don’t want any misunderstanding on that! Just injecting some levity, nothing more.

    My earlier comments re: people seeing things differently stand, since I have no personal knowledge of what transpired between Sara and John and wouldn’t dare presume to guess.

    It has been my experience when interviewing different sides to an emergent event that the recollections of the parties often don’t coincide and all involved can be entirely sure of what they said or heard. And of course if it’s a shooting in the neighborhood, some could indeed be lying.

    Using my earlier example, witnesses to a bank robbery generally have no axe to grind when describing events, they just didn’t see things the same way.

    I think it’s natural for a person who is telling something the way they remember it to state that they will “take a lie detector”. I’m just not sure it would be applicable or necessary in a case like this.

    Again, the story was purely for recreational purposes, in no way connected with our discussion except for the topic calling it to mind.

  435. Welcome Tommo, thank you for your insightful comments. Hindsight is so easy, so 20/20…our challenge is to do what we can now to change the future and “help fix it”.

  436. 599- tara, I enjoyed the book, kinda wondered what became of Leland. Ha, I even look for Joe Bens new house when I go to Eugene. No special reason, it just came to me.

  437. Busy night, had to be gone a few hours and still catching up. Lisa, on the fan, my son has a 17″ Gateway and it gets really hot too. We got one of those fans to put underneather it but the fans are on the bottom of the laptop and they suck air up through the laptop and the fan we got sucked air away from the laptop, which actually made it run hotter as it was creating a vacum. If you have fans which are on the bottom, make sure you determine which way the air flows and get a fan that blows in the same direction. They really do work great.

  438. Thanks for the welcome, I have actually been here since JoeDuck started his blog. I used to be a little voice in the wilderness 🙂

    tharwood is also me when I’m logged into WordPress.

  439. Let me just say here that the PacNWer’s out there don’t affect me at all. In fact, he does ask some valid questions that I either cannot answer due to my own lack of knowledge or cannot answer in this setting.

    I do have some difficulty with people in positions of public trust who speak out in an unprofessional manner, but that has been largely a very rare event.

  440. (609) Tommo AKA tharwood you have a lot of experience with blogging too and your comments have been well received. Thanks and nice to know and make the connection to tharwood.

  441. Thanks Glenn, and the COBOL thang really isn’t so bad. I think of it as the perl of the late 1950s. And I don’t have to write (much) of it, just analyze it 🙂

    Now that was OT. And I’m getting punchy. L8 mes amis.

    Be excellent to one another.

  442. (612) Tommo I did my share and 360 Assembly…you will have to catch me up with Cobol one of these days. 🙂

  443. Katies Dad– In response to the “mistake” of taking that road–I’ve done it myself, more than once– in broad daylight even. And, I’m pretty good with maps!
    –Eric Fuqua

  444. 603- Thank you Madeleine for clarifying that. I really do appreciate all your deep and balanced insights into all these matters.

    608- And thank you very much Francis for that tip! 😀

  445. Sorry – I left for 2 hours and PacNWer slipped in with some foul posts. I’m looking into some legal recourse as he’d agreed to stay away.

  446. Sorry Frances! For my name typo! 😀

    I always love it when you’re here! You are so honest and from the heart!

  447. 622/Joe – regardless of legal actions, it would so easy for him to circumvent…much as we all wish him to be gone, I feel you shouldn’t have to go to all that work. If Kati’s dad can rise above it, can’t we? We saw the other day what happens if we ignore him, he goes away. He is beyond offensive, I know, but can we really stop him without compromising the openness that makes this venue special?

  448. Helicopter pilot rescuer John Rachor saw “out of gas” stomped in the snow.

    I’ve driven 10’s and 10’s of thousands of miles the U.S, every state but 2. I love driving back roads. Exploring, poking around, seeing what’s around the next corner. I always knew where I was going but many, many times became lost on the roads getting there. But there was one sensible thing I was consistent about. I always carried a 5 gallon can of spare gas… just in case! Extra fuel for the car, and useful too for help getting a fire hot enough to keep burning using even wet wood to feed it.

    I can’t help but think James may not have felt compelled to set out on foot seeking help had they not “run out of gas.”

  449. 615 I used to off road explore in the deserts and mountains all the time, mostly in search of photo subjects, so I too know how easy it is to get lost. Cell phones and GPS’s in the last few years have obviously reduced the risk significantly. I once thought I was doomed to die in the desert near in the Mexico boarder in Arizona. My good Papago Indian friend finally found me and let me have it for having made a foolish decision to wander off as I did. I think the vast of majority of folks heaping criticism on James and Kati probably have little concept of how easy it is to get lost. Nonetheless, clearly in retrospect the kids made some bad choices.

  450. Was gone a few weeks and very surprised to find 1000s of posts since then to speed through. Instead of reducing in the weeks following the tragedy, the post rate seems to have accelerated. Interesting to watch how this section of Joe’s blog has evolved. Reiterates that humans are social creatures and perhaps shows a need to “connect” about important issues.

    Joe, thank you SO MUCH! for termininating Charles Wilson. Had to laugh when I saw your caps in 387. Reminds me of the Derek Smart usenet saga for some reason.

  451. Kati’s dad you are a model of civility and wisdom. I suppose the rude and insulting comments are nothing compared to the thought of losing your kids, but thank you for sharing some of your thoughts here in spite of them.

    Paul – yes, it would be easier for me to leave it all up but this is not really a normal “wild west” internet venue and there are a lot of people reading. I’m not comfortable having the PacNWer comments of tonight associated with me in any way.

  452. these 2 comments ring true with me:

    [570] — Dee’s, “…If a troll speaks on a blog where it knows no one wants to hear it, does the troll make any noise at all?”

    [610] — Kati’s Dad’s “…In fact, he (PacNRer) does ask some valid questions…”

  453. I totally dont get any criticism of John James for receiving payment from CNN. He’s absolutely entitled to payment and there isnt even a shred of ethical dilemmna about this. Nada, zilch, zero. Such criticism is so far out in left field that its enough to instantly make me question the motivation of anyone questioning this.

  454. I am almost gone for the night. But I wanted to be a little more on topic before I left.

    628- It was also reported that the waitress at Denny’s said James looked significantly tired. I know that can really make a difference too when it comes to choices/decisions.

    I know too that sometimes I have made decisions that were maybe a bit naive because I am an optimist. It seems that James also had a lot of the optimist in him?

    And together being tired and being an optimist, can really affect decision-making.

  455. [615] — Driving at night when stormy and snowing or raining hard in mountainous terrain can be very disorienting, even when all else is well. I’ve often been surprised when backtracking in daylight a route I drove the previous night how sometimes totally different it actually was from what I thought it was.

    Thinking of the Kims on 34-8-36, I’d bet what seemed up was often down and vice versa. Directions under those conditions can so often be easily mistaken too. Thinking you’re heading to Galice when in fact heading opposite direction.

  456. 631
    Joe says, “I’m not comfortable having the PacNWer comments of tonight associated with me in any way.”

    Joe, now that makes total sense. I can’t blame you at all for keeping the stench and malice separate from your good name. In your shoes, I think I would do exactly as you have done.

  457. I am talking to people who have no respect for other people.
    That being said, there are always reasons why intelligent people make the choices they make. I was using some of the information that has been available to surmise possible factors involved.

    No one is infallible. Ever.

    And no one deserves to be treated poorly for the fact that they are not infallible especially if they have suffered greatly and paid the ultimate price.

  458. 631/Joe- when you put it that way, I’m forced to agree. Here’s to your latest moniker – Terminator.

  459. hey PacNWer: try asking questions & sharing your views, respectfully, and you may not be unwelcomed here.

  460. 632 – Kip – I appreciate that Kati’s dad feels that Pac has asked some valid questions (a very gracious attitude), and you apparently agree, no problem. I personally feel that any valid questions have been far outweighed by Pac’s gratuitously insulting commentary designed to be hurtful for those closest to the situation. I don’t cut him any slack for it, I think he’s like a child who delights in making disgusting comments, and to me it is enabling him as a disruptor to allow him unlimited access.

    It does dampen the discussion, and I don’t believe it’s fair for us to feel guilty for responding, though I know that feeding them makes them worse.

    I can only speak for myself, I came here to discuss the incident to hopefully have something positive come from it. So did most of this group, I’m sure. We may not agree on everything, but 99.9% of us remain civil and gracious to each other, even when we differ.

    I also would not speak for Joe, but he has the right to maintain a site with appropriate rules and still allow freedom for people to post differing opinions. Pac was told, along with the others, that all they had to do was remain civil, which is apparently asking too much.

    I consider it a privilege to post here, not a right, and Pac doesn’t get to hold this blog hostage for his own gratification.

    I should have let this one simmer overnight before posting, but I’m tired of tiptoeing around the elephant in the living room.

  461. 642- I think everyone knew what I meant

    645- Yes, thanks Madeleine it is hard not to speak out against it.

    I think ignoring and deleting is probably most effective,
    and I respect Joe’s decisions entirely.

  462. There are definitely some opportunities for improvment in public safety, public awareness, map design, etc. as result of this tragedy, but it should be abundantly clear that this Father has not and will not cast blame on any governmental entity.

  463. Someone at my office asked me today if I was “avoiding” questions some may have posed here in my general direction the past couple days (something about a polygraph??) – I haven’t had much time to stop by, and when I did, seemed like I was at the wrong blog, but I’m here for a couple if someone thought I had disappeared. Just a busy week. Sorry if I missed something but haven’t had much time to keep up.

  464. Thanks for dropping in Det. Mike. There have not been as many questions as I’d expected about your Portland PD report. It was very thorough so I think people can “understand it” now that we have that much detail.

  465. They must have gotten it wrong, right? Why would a polygraph have anything to do with this case?

  466. 653 – That was kind of the idea, Joe and is usually the case. I think people are beginning to understand the desire for LE to attempt to be more “transparent,” as the buzz word goes. If we turn our cards face-up on the table, many of the questions, suppositions and conjecture about LE’s involement in any particular event begin to subside. That is one of the desired signs of progress and the breaking down of barriers. I’m glad to hear it, Joe.

  467. PacNWer I’ll be deleting every comment from you due to the serious abuse earlier and what I felt were clearly racist, insulting comments. I won’t allow that here, and I don’t have the patience or inclination to edit each of your comments line by line to edit out the inappropriate material.

  468. The anonymity of the Internet is an amazing phenomenon. It’s unfortunate that some who choose to be intentionally devisive and disruptive to those who have gathered to share a common thread, while allowing and inviting individuality, are subjected to the childish behavior of one or two who choose to exploit and cower behind that anonymity.

  469. 654- Hi Det. Mike!

    Just debate about how accurate polygraphs are – John James had said he would take one, etc. – and then there were some questions about their reliability, court admissibility etc.
    Just general questions…

  470. Good Evening Mike,

    I had a quesion I asked earlier, Is there a reason Early on when all that was known was that the Kim family had left Portland and not been seen since that there was not a reward offered? I have always thought that it would have been a great motivator for people to go out and search.

    I understand why you would not want volunteers helping after an area had been identified but was just wondering, is there a reason LE maybe discouraged the reward idea?


  471. [645] — Madeleine, Joe can do NO wrong my book, even if he does something I don’t like. I haven’t felt that way for very many people, ever. My 2 sons come to mind. Whatever Joe decides to do in connection with this / his blog I support fully. But not necessarily like!

    But Joe is limited what he can do in the case of disruptive posters. Anybody can post here. So how can they be stopped?

    1) Making partial and complete deletions as soon as practicable after posted

    2) Other posters not responding, period.

    3) and most important: Setting the *tone* most of us want, by example. Joe does this superbly and it is I think the major reason his blog is so successful.

    1 & 3 …happening, now. But not 2. Perhaps we should ALL agree henceforth NO responding to disrespectful posts.

  472. 664- “Childish” is too kind, my five year old never behaves that boorishly. It is unfortunate.

  473. 665 -Ahh, I see. Obviously not court admissible under the current rules of evidence. However, definitely have value in the appropriate situations. Won’t comment re: this case, however. If whomever posed the questions was serious, I personally don’t think it would be the proper application of this specific science (and no, I am not a polygrapher but am well-acquainted with ours, who is an oustanding professional).

  474. 668/Kip: Yesterday was the 1st time we pulled that off consistently (not responding) and it seemed quite effective.

  475. Mike – nicely written!

    Kip thanks – I appreciate that comment a lot.

    Even with IP blocking it’s easy to bypass and post maliciously. I could throw *everything* into “moderation” which means I’d have to approve each comment but that’s pretty time consuming and we’d lose some of the nice give and take we’ve had on some occassions.

    If the abuse continues I’ll probably set some chunks of time when I’ll be here to moderate all the comments (I can do this in seconds), but outside of those hours people would have to wait to see their comments. This is the only way I could zap 100% of the abuse.

  476. 667 – Rewards are a subject that often come up in MPERS investigations. The general rule of thumb is this (and no, this is not an “official” rule or written anywhere in black and white)… rewards are usually not necessary, as most decent people, regardless of their motivation, are willing to step forward and offer what they have to contribute (search volunteers, information, etc.) without remuneration.

    The other biproduct of offering a reward is that each and every tip called in during an ongoing incident is triaged and followed-up as necessary. Rewards tend to encourage “false leads,” if you will, which, in some instances, severely detracts from the collective effort of making the most effective use of often limited resources.

    Rewards are sometimes offered by LE when all other efforts have been exhausted, and usually to entice someone who needs that extra $$ incentive to come forward. And the truth is that those who “wait” for a reward often have a reason, just based on what many of those folks have expressed, to avoid LE unless there IS a $$$ incentive. Sad, but true. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions about that.

    One last biproducts of rewards – those who truly sit and “wait” for the offer, once an intial reward has been put out in the public, they figure if they wait around long enough, someone might raise the reward. Usually a false impression, but again, can severely skew an investigation.

    Please remember that, since these are not policy or legal certainties, these opinions are my own.

  477. Det Mike, what can you tell us about just how tips are triaged? Especially in cases where there are just so darn many, how to you separate out which ones to consider most strongly, least strongly?

  478. Just to be clear, in re-reading my 673, no, LE does not avoid offering rewards to avoid the possibility of more tips coming in, even if there are false leads. That would be an oversimplification (my word, not that anyone suggested it). Suffice it to say that it is often decided on a case by case basis, but is considered rare in the early (i.e. investigative) stage of a MPERS case.

  479. 674- Good question, Maggie, as always. Difficult one to put into words, as well. A good portion, if not as much as 90% (professional guestimate) are so general there would be no way to follow up on particular tips (i.e. I think I saw a car that might have been that color…or model…or was it a station wagon… 2 weeks ago on a road I cannot recall at a time I just don’t remember…) – you get the idea. And yes, the majority of callers do provide this type of information, bless their hearts, because many truly just want to help.

    And even though, on the surface, it might not seem like much, one has to review, document and log each tip, especially in a large, involved case. You never know when there will emerge a “theme,” no matter how slight, amongst the slew of tips.

    The obvious ones, where a caller leaves a name and #, are often followed up by either one of the lead investigators, or are called back by local law enforcement (who tend to know their neck of the woods better), with the results provided back at a central location, to continue the comparing/contrasting of incoming info.

    Hypothetically speaking, in a case such as this one, when 50 callers all call stating they saw THAT specific vehicle, with THAT family, in 50 different places at virtually the same time (and yes, this also happens), we use what verifiable information we already have to narrow those down. Impossibilities, confirmed by reliable, independent information are not followed up further, unless something changes.

  480. Thanks Det. Mike!

    Does “a full night’s sleep” ever consider you a missing person? (I get the idea it might) 😀 [Likewise for others here!]

  481. Thanks Mike, I had just early on thought if there was a reward offered it might get folks off the couch hoping to make a few extra $$$

    Never thought about it bringing out the crazies or folks waiting to give tip until one was offered.

    Have a nice peaceful weekend! 🙂


  482. A word about ‘out of gas’. Somewhere up thread there was a discussion about carrying a can of gasoline in a car. Now we all know that we can look back at this particular incident and come up with a list of items: a snack, a blanket, etc. that would have been real nice. Topping off the tanks is a nice habit too.

    However, I think a can of gasoline sloshing around, young kids in the car, its just not a good idea at all. Ofcourse in some areas such as Washington State it would be a very wrong thing to do since such spare gas cans or cans used to supply gasoline to recreational boats are prohibited on the state ferry system.

  483. A waitress reported ‘he looked tired’. I’m sure later reconstruction of his schedule may have clarified this issue.

    I doubt the rigors of driving were helping. Frustration with missing a road sign may have played a role. Difficulties with snow or rain obscured vision through a windshield don’t help. And there is the ever present desire to make it to the waiting hotel room.

    Pressing ever more deeply into a remote area when staying closer to the “main” road to the coast turned out to be wrong. Ofcourse we don’t know if they realized they were on a spur road of some sort. They may have felt or hoped that they would come to some small settlement or country trading post.

    We can all look back at the situation and say they should have returned to a point nearer the Bear Camp Rd/logging spur ‘intersection’ as a place to get stuck. Its hard to turn around in a snow storm and its hard to retrace steps through empty wilderness behind you when the thoughts of there being civilization just up ahead somewhere are so tempting. Turning around (if possible) would have proven better if they could have made it back to Bear Camp Rd or atleast closer to it, but could they have possibly known that?

    Upthread there was some brief mention of Koreans having good leg muscles due to a habit of hiking mountainous terrain. Whatever great distances were hiked under such difficult conditions are more attributable to the heart than to the legs. The ability to keep going despite the cold, wet feet and rugged terrain was due to his concern for his family.

  484. Tommo 601 well said. welcome.

    Kip 627 Agree. With gas, he would have driven out as far as possible. Why did he leave on foot that Sat morning, … I think it had more to do with the baby’s health and how much longer the baby could be well cared for and stay healthy. That would be compelling and offset the position he had taken to stay with the car for almost seven days. Just my guess.

    I have now watched all the “survivor” documentaries on the Discovery Channel (Man v Wild and Survivorman) They haven’t added the presence of juveniles in their situations,…. each shows how to survive with absolute minimum stuff in all kinds of nature. From the edge of volcanos, snowy mountains, Utah canyons, Costa Rican rainforest, Pacific islands, far north of Cananda, Arizona deserts,– both live for seven days in the wild with a knife or Leatherman multitool, maybe some sort of firestarter, and sometimes a canteen and metal cup, (but one guy used his hat to boil a stew of snails, worms, etc with hot rocks). Quite interesting. Even these extremely fit and knowledgeable young men suffer out there from fitful sleep. They lose 5- 8 pounds over the week.

    On extra gas carrying. Some auto stores sell a non-flammable gas substitute, expensive, called “spare tank.”

  485. Lisa…

    I think a full nights sleep does consider some people a missing person!! 🙂

    Anyway, not much to add this morning…yet. But THANKS Joe for taking the time to delete the offenders comments. I really appreciate it and I already know what he is saying, am not missing anything. He/Charles truly “chilled” the conversation, to the point the other day I felt the evil was just oozing out of my computer, and I agree with how Madeleine adddressed it.

    Paul, I like you, but come on…ignorning that guy only makes him louder and more offensive. His trigger is “hero” , kati’s dad, or generally people doing constructive things like talking to each other normally. At least this is what I think.

    Maedeliene…Hercules the Viking Cat!? hahahaha.

  486. (685) Bamadad, thanks for the tip about “spare tank” I have never heard of that before but the product sounds useful. I am going to look for it.

  487. Joe wow…all the deletions, aye yi yi! What a pain to have to monitor all of this activity while we try to do something positive!

  488. Glenn, I saw the product was announced in 2000 at $24 a gallon (wow), but it is inert, nonflammable. Haven’t seen it advertised much.

    Some day we may be able to carry a gallon of Crisco for fuel ala Willie Nelson.

    I used to drive tractor on the farm in the 60’s and we had a spare clear reservoir of gas right along side/connected to the fuel line, visible so if you ran out in the field, you opened the petcock and had enough to drive another two miles. Fuel gauges weren’t too precise back then.

    Interesting post on web work groups here (not the communist Workers Daily, but WebWorkers):

  489. (689) Bamadad, thanks for the additional information. Do you know the shelf life of the product? This is something that the auto manufacturer could put right next to the SPARE TIRE.

    Tucker had it right when it came to auto safety. There are a couple of things that the manufacturers could do to make it a lot easier for everyone.

  490. (689) Bamadad, great link for the online collaboration. Nice succinct summary of the technologies and their best combined use.

    I could tell you some very funny stories about our “retreats” to strategize the future. Something insane always seems to happen and we do our best to make it a team building excercise. That article reminded me of those fun times…

    Also I had a friend who rigged up a side tank on his doodlebug many years ago. At a county fair in the middle of competing he ran out of gas! That was his solution for that – he didn’t even have a gas gauge!

  491. (689) Bamadad, Well it looks like the product didn’t make it! What a shame. The company that was marketing it:

    Emergency Solutions is located at 100 Park Avenue, 4th Floor in Baltimore,
    Maryland. The toll free number is 1-877-SPARETANK (772-7382). The website
    address is

    Doesn’t seem to be in business anymore or at least selling Spare Tank.

    The product is patented…maybe it is time for the product to be re-visited.

  492. Glenn, thanks for your comments. Yes, I noticed. Maybe these guys picked up the idea, I know some brand is available. Take care. have to go out on errands for a while.

  493. 686/Mapper: I need to clarify, I did not mean to imply nothing should be done, deletion absolutely at a minimum. I was just expressing that others have said it is easy for a banned or blocked poster to come on the site via another handle or ISP. Pac is the kind of person who I think won’t be detered by a call from a lawyer or an LE, short of hauling the guy away in chains, he’ll try to find a way to cause trouble. If Joe needs to put the entire thread into moderation, so be it. I just didn’t want him to go to whatever legal expense he was considering if it would do no good, which is what I suspect. If I am wrong, I am all for WHATEVER will get rid of his vile presence. Short of that, the next best thing seemed to continue to ignore him.

  494. Sometimes we get a bit carried away at each other, tempers get a little hot, emotions run a bit high, we on occassion will blast out at another, etc. etc. BUT I think as group in total we get along pretty well and for this much interaction of thoughts among so many different people, I think we’ve all got to be proud of how we generally get along. Every family, best friends, spouses, siblings, etc. all have moments of explosion & disagreement, but if anyone thinks they can use these times to try to divide or fan so called flames to create serious & lasting discord among us, they are sadly mistaken. I can call my brother an idiot, but don’t anyone else dare do so!!! So those who think they can possibily take advange of these burts to possibily further their own possible agenda, are quite mistaken.

  495. Glen, you have to be careful about using the smiley’s, Joe admitted last night they were sublimial messages, although he did not personnally take responsibility for them carrying a message and he didn’t state exactly what the message was but he did state it was because of the message the smiley’s carry, we are incapble of leaving.

  496. 696/Frances, good comments, I like your brother example…it is an interesting results that Pacs attacks unify this body of individuals like nothing else quite has…he’s trying to be divisive, and he’s anything but.

  497. 698/Glenn: I think they contain a new form of air-born time-release nicotine…or something equally addicting. 🙂

  498. Paul, am not sure what the contain, Joe would not be specific, but they surely do seem to be powerful whatever they carry. Hmm.. I think we should call the detective in to investigate Joe…

  499. My suspicion is the little green one carries more of an impact than the standard yellow one’s.

  500. 699, etc: Frances: expanding on Joe’s fine Hotel California analogy, with apologies to the Eagles for taking liberties with their lyrics:
    Last thing I remember, I was
    Searching for the door
    I had to find the passage back
    To the life I had before
    ’relax,’ said the Joe Duck,
    You are programmed to return.
    You can checkout any time you like,
    But you’ll never truly leave!

  501. 704- Frances

    I agree that mr. green has extra powers and may actually be the kung fu super hero of the smiley world! :mrgreen:

    705- I like that very much Paul, I would like to contribute with additional possible last line endings:

    You are programmed to return.
    You can check out any time you like,
    But your desire/computer/curiousity/
    addiction, etc. (take your pick!)
    Will continue to burn…

    heh heh heh… :mrgreen: !

  502. Speaking of curious, I wonder when the OSSA Report will be completed? I think it’s a good sign that it’s taking as long as it is – that should mean they’re doing a very thorough and careful job.

  503. 706-Lisa/ You fixed my fractured rhyme, it was a problem, thank you. Also, it should be noted that consumption of Dutch Bros. coffee is known to amplify the effect of Joe’s stealth emoticons and their nefarious addictive properties.

  504. Ah, but Paul, the never truly leave part is so true!

    And I wasn’t trying to fix it, just play with it in addition. I sometimes have rhyming tendencies.

  505. Lisa,

    I forgot to add, I always wanted to be a detective too (or secret agent…theres still time..) and I also think it has something to do with nancy drew!! I can still read those books and be entertained!

    But after reading the detective’s report….it does sound quite tedious!!

  506. [707] – “that should mean they’re doing a very thorough and careful job.”

    or, could be that their findings so hot they’re hoping with added intervening time space crowd interest in the story will dissipate somewhat.

    whatever it takes to make ‘us sheriffs’ look good… a major consideration no doubt.

    sheees, i’m sure sounding cynical.. (pls, no commment back !)

  507. Barnadad, yes I remember Kati indicating somewhere that one of the main reasons James felt he needed to leave the car
    was that the girls were crying from hunger. Hard to imagine much more compelling than that.

  508. 709- To be more specific, I sometimes have rhyming tendencies that are hard to fight off – as evidenced in my smiley poem last night! 😀

    710- Mapper, I know! But the real world always has more paperwork!

    713- Good morning RRR!

  509. 710- Also Mapper, I have a U.S. friend who can’t marry anyone from another country because of who his brother in law works for… I didn’t know things worked like that, but it’s true!

  510. Lisa,

    his brother-in-law? wow….I had to get a security clearance when I worked for the air force (as a consultant)…had to go back ten years and report all my addresses (work and residence), roommates, references from every place I lived etc. I mean, who really remembers the address and zip codes of every place they have ever worked…not to mention your friends and old roommates…had to have a few different phone books by my side to fill that thing out. They always got me on the zip code….

    they also took four vials of my blood and told me this was to get my blood type…..

  511. working from home today…talk to you all later, probably sooner than later, hopefully I can break away from the smiley’s hypnotic glare!


  512. I cannot seem to get this post up with the link to the following Forest Service 2004 road analysis that includes the Bear Camp area, so I’m just posting some cut and paste excerpts of the study. Sorry it’s so long, but I think some of you will find it interesting. It helps our case to keep the roads open to the public. Personally, I’m glad to see that the FS sees the value for maintaining backcountry roads for recreation use and it looks like they intend to maintain them for that purpose.

    January 2004

    Locally, recent analysis of Recreation Participation Trends in SCORP Region 5 (southwest Oregon including Jackson, Josephine, Curry and Coos county area) indicate that 45% of the population engage in sightseeing and driving for pleasure as a recreational activity. Last year, measuring use only upon unpaved, backcountry roads, Oregon Parks and Recreation measured 1,273,103 user-occasions within Region 5, the
    4th highest level of recreational driving in Oregon.

    Objective 4.b: “Improve the safety and economy of USDA Forest Service roads, trails, facilities, and operations and provide greater security for the public and employees”;
    • Objective 4.f: “Provide appropriate access to national Forest System lands and ensure nondiscrimination in the delivery of all USDA Forest Service programs”.

    The Recreation Experience
    Once a decision has been made to engage in a particular recreation activity, the recreation experience can be broken into five distinct phases:
    1. Planning, occurs pre-trip, it is the time spent preparing for the activity of choice;
    2. Travel to, is the time spent traveling to the chosen setting in which to engage in the chosen activity;
    3. On-site, the time of actual engagement in the activity of choice;
    4. Travel from, the time spent traveling home, or to the next activity, and;
    5. Recollection, the strongest, longest-lasting aspect of the recreation experience. Recollection lasts for a lifetime and is probably the most important variable in making a decision to engage in a particular recreational activity.
    Normally, a road’s most important role would be during phase 2 and 4 above, however, based upon SCORP research – forest roads (or driving) is frequently the activity itself. In this scenario, roads (and activities associated with them such as driving for pleasure, wildlife viewing, sightseeing, etc.) have the greatest potential to influence the recollection phase and determine the successful achievement of the user’s recreational expectations. Unsafe road conditions, and lack of adequate signing are two common experiences that can degrade a user’s recreation experience.
    Opportunities for Recreation on National Forests
    Recreation opportunities can be broadly characterized as developed recreation opportunities, and dispersed recreation opportunities. Roads providing access to these opportunities will be evaluated upon the level of use for recreation. Level of use has been developed informally through visual observation, historical records, evaluation of expected trends based upon demand information presented in the 2003 Statewide Comprehensive Recreation Plan (SCORP). Additionally, roads that provide administrative access for maintenance of trails will be favorably evaluated, where that access substantially improves management efficiency.
    Roads Analysis January 2004 Appendix D-10 Additional Road Management
    Rogue River-Siskiyou National Forest Analysis Factors
    Developed Recreation
    Developed recreation takes place in created environments. Campgrounds, trailheads, picnic sites, and recreational rentals are examples of developed recreation sites. There are 18 developed camping and picnic sites located within the Galice and Illinois Valley Ranger Districts, as well as maintained trailheads throughout. Because of the investment in these developed sites and their consistent level of use, roads accessing all developed sites are ranked as High.
    Dispersed Recreation
    Dispersed recreation takes place in more natural environments. Primitive camping, boating, swimming, hiking, wildlife and plant viewing, hunting, and driving for pleasure are among the most common dispersed recreation activities on the Galice and Illinois Valley Ranger Districts. Some other, less popular dispersed activities include firewood cutting, fishing, history and nature study, orienteering, gold panning, and non-commercial mineral location are also primarily dependant upon road access to the National Forest.
    Analyzing a route’s importance to Dispersed Recreation
    Due to the wide variety of activities that take place in dispersed settings, it is difficult to
    Safe and adequate access to recreation sites is a critical component in providing a “quality” recreation experience for Forest visitors. Roads and their management play a critical role in the public’s achievement of their expected recreational outcomes here in southwest Oregon.
    Unsafe road conditions and lack of adequate signing are two common experiences that can degrade a user’s recreation experience.

    Roads Offering Access to Historically Popular Hunting Grounds
    Core roads for access should be maintained into the following areas. Road condition and
    high challenge level of the road are not as important as the ability to access these areas via road. A high degree of self-reliance and map skills are expected by this user-group and are an integral part of the activity. Core roads (Arterials and Collectors) in these geographical areas should be rated as high importance for recreation. With some individual exceptions, locals should be rated as low. Each local should be specifically examined and evaluated during the preparation of Road Management Objectives.
    Galice Ranger District
    North District: Bob’s Garden Mountain, Bearcamp, and Sugarloaf areas (T34 and 35S R09 and 10W WM)

    It is critical to find a balance between utility and economy in the Forest road network. As the population of southwest Oregon metropolitan areas continues to grow (and gray), forest users who once worked, hiked, camped – or dreamed of doing so – will continue to look for opportunities to experience the National Forest with the assistance of their automobile.
    By utilizing the full-range of maintenance level management, we can provide an adequate road system that:
    1. Provides basic access to developed recreation opportunities;
    2. Provides access to dispersed recreation opportunities that:
    a. Requires varying degrees of driving skill;
    b. Requires various types of driving equipment, and;
    3. Will maximize benefits to large portion of our recreational users.

    1. Roads Forming Scenic Connections Between Cities or Major Paved Transportation Routes
    These roads form connections and serve as scenic and/or adventure alternatives to the primary transportation routes.
    Galice Ranger District
    FR 23 (Galice, OR. to Gold Beach, OR. – I-5 to Highway 101)
    FR 2308 (Bearcamp to Agness, OR. – alternate route)
    FR 2402 (Chrome Ridge to FR 23 or FR 25)
    FR 25 (Galice, OR to Highway 199)
    FR 2706 (Rogue River Loop Highway – Highway 260 to Highway 199 via FR 25)

    2. Roads Forming Popular Loop Drives
    Based upon the concentration of dispersed use areas along these routes, these routes receive a higher level of dispersed recreation-oriented use. Some require specialized vehicles and/or a higher level of driving skill. These roads also provide access to a high number of dispersed camping sites.
    Galice Ranger District
    FR 2200 – FR 2200-018 – FR 2800 (Waters Creek/Limpy Creek Loop)
    FR 23 – FR 2402 (via BLM)
    FR 2512 – FR 2512-675 – FR 4105 – FR 4103 (Flat Top/Illinois River)
    FR 25 –FR 2509 – FR 2706 (Taylor Creek/ Shan Creek Loop)
    FR 25 – FR 2500-226 – FR 2500-700 – FR 2500-710 – FR 2500-243 (Swede Basin Loop)

    1. The population in the Rogue Valley has continued to grow and gray over the past few years.
    2. SCORP research indicates that local participation in road-dependant recreation activities is already among the highest in the state;
    3. SCORP projections indicate that demand for these activities will continue to grow over the next several years;
    4. Objectives of the USDA Forest Service at the national level call for
    a. Provide adequate access to the National Forests;
    b. Improvements to road safety and economy;
    c. Assistance to our neighbors in adapting to economic and social change due to natural resources;
    5. Objectives of recreation management in the Pacific Northwest Region of the Forest Service address the needs and expectations of forest visitors by delivering a quality recreation experience while protecting the ecosystem;
    6. Oregon Department of Tourism estimates a $5 return to State and Local taxes for every $1 spent on recreation and tourism, and;
    7. Roads and access play a critical role in the success of our meeting users recreational expectations.

  513. 720- Yes, his brother-in-law. It’s hard to imagine how things like that could affect your life possibilities. I was surprised, I can understand it now, but still it’s not the kind of thing you think of…

    That’s amazing that they were that thorough – but I guess they feel they have to do that with everyone because of spys. Four vials of blood for blood type – I’m surprised they weren’t more honest, although I guess they have to keep a lot of secrets 8)

  514. I tried to post just the link to the 15 page pdf of the Fs study on roads, but it won’t post. Yesterday I was able to open the whole document. Today it is missing pages. If anyone wants the link, I can email it to them directly or send it to Joe and see if he can get it on the blog.


    Another try to link to the FS road analysis for area including Bear Camp

    Thanks, Kip. Let’s see if that worked. I saw some of those up a ways.
    If this works, then Joe can delete that long post if he wants.

  516. Kip – that worked for the URL. If you open it, see how about 9 pages are missing from the pdf? I’ve never had this happen and I work with pdf’s all the time. Don’t know what to do about that. Yesterday it was fine. Not that it’s a time/date thing!
    If the document won’t open correctly, then maybe we should leave my cut and paste up until we are done looking at it.

  517. Kip – I meant to ask you in the last post if the tiny url is the solution for long urls. I have never had this come up. Thanks again for the tip.

  518. Tommo wrote:
    … Foolish mistakes were made, and heroic deeds were done. But to focus on them is to miss the essence of what happened.

    I think this story draws people in because we see ourselves in this chain of little mistakes and misconceptions that ends in that drainage. It seems to make a lot of people angry; angry at the Kims, angry at the SAR folks, angry that things could go so wrong so fast. But they did …

    Very nicely put Tommo – I’d missed this last night and your longer comment was a fine one!

  519. from [722] – “…lack of adequate signing are two common experiences that can degrade a user’s recreation experience”

    duh.. !

    bureaucratic gobbledygook. sad..

  520. #708 – No wonder Glen offered to send me some Dutch Bro. if I had run out!!
    🙂 he, he.