Kim Family Search in Rogue River Wilderness of Oregon 4 Kim Search discussion page ONE Kim Search discussion page TWO Kim Search page THREE Kim Search page FOUR Kim Search page FIVE Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:Like Loading...
The Kim Family Search discussion now spans 4 pages of over 3300 total comments.
You are now on page 4 of the comments.
Hey I am awake now…where is everyone?
(3) Ah Tara…I knew I could count on you! Good Morning.
Crazy night last night…but I see all the slackers are still away.
I have to run to the airport…be back a little later.
I just spent the last hour reading all the girls’ er I mean the more than 500 posts since I went to bed last night. (I’m in the DC area now) I’ve been on a lot of forums, and I’ve never seen a thread grow this fast! Anyways, it sure was nice to hear from wpflem. I’m glad he was here. It’s also cool to read posts for SAR members. Got a lot of respect for what you do. I’ll be back later.
It looks like last night sort of wore everyone out! 😀
6 – Good morning, DH. Yes, that was a late one. And I’m feeling it this morning.
Guess everyone is recovering from the posting frenzy last night. Unbelievable! Wpflem dropping in was amazing, and truly illustrates that you never know who is here.
Hi Maggie, good morning. Nice to see you.
G’morning all. Just read through the posts…whew! It was an exciting/busy night on this blog!
re8: Yes, that was shocking AND amazing, Madeleine!
Hi Gayle, like reading 5 morning papers, eh?
8 – Madeleine, yes, so true. Anyone can be reading along with us. And then sometimes some of them even show up. What an incredible place this is. It really was nice having wpflem drop by – he sounds like such a strong Dad, and that made me feel good that Kati has someone like him right now.
10 – Gayle, happy reading. Plenty there to read, huh?
12 – A real page turner, yes. 🙂 Hated to sign off and go to bed but as it is this morning came way too early. (yawn ‘n stretch) Had only one home care client though so that wasn’t so bad. It seems like time is really dragging though, waiting for the report to come out.
re14: I would certainly personally say “excruciating” waiting for the report to come out! I feel like such a fool sometimes! Oh well, enough about me. 😳
14 – Yes, passing time until the report comes out is hard. I can see us lined up in front of our screens on the 5th, drumming our fingers, awaiting the report to devour it. Bet it will be a big relief for JoCo, in many ways. And I hope it will answer any lingering questions the families might have.
The 5th is a Friday… I sure hope we won’t have to wait till the following Monday to hear about it.
re17: Heaven forbid, Gayle!
re16: Certainly a good way for any forum to keep a readership, that’s for sure!
Yikes, I hadn’t even thought about the report due on a Friday! Friday is a bad day for the news media to cover things, so this will be interesting. We can assume they are lurking here, I suppose.
17 – Gayle, bite your tongue 🙂 I’m with you, though, I hope not, but it makes you wonder. Aren’t BOTH reports due then? Perhaps the one Kulongoski is requesting will take more time to release, but I’d hope the OSSA might be in our hands a little faster maybe.
THe best thing about this forum is that we’ve had about 2000 posts to figure out essential questions that we have.
I cant remember, sleep deprivation, but did they say they would release the ENTIRE report to the public?
23 – I thought that with the Kulongoski one they didn’t really say what would be released, and that the OSSA one that Josephine County requested that they would release any problems. Neither really sounded like we would necessarily hear all of it for certain, if I remember correctly – but I’m sleep deprived, too, so that’s just from what could be bad memory.
Oh boy, does that Kona coffee I got for Christmas taste good this morning! We just finally got our Dutch Brothers too here in Newport about a month ago. Finally! I love the Mochas!
25 – DH, yes, Dutch Brothers is awesome. Not just their coffee, but the people. I could go on. I was running too late to get one this morning. I’d better stop or I’ll go on a huge tangent.
re20: Oh yeah, probably the CIA, FBI, DAR, Dick Cheney, and Hillary Clinton too!
That was so funny last night that JoCo and RRR were in the same room on 2 computers.
What???!!! Did everyone rush out to Dutch Bros. or go to their coffee machines???
Good Morning Everyone I hope all has recovered well
I wonder if JoCo is lurking yet. JoCo, are you going to have a new screen name on the 5th? Maybe I shouldn’t ask… a little paranoid this morning.
RRR!!! Good morning! Are you near the beautiful Rogue River this AM?
Why yes I am. However not many can’t be it is sooooo swollen from all the rain its HUGE!
Oh, that’s right. Sounded like JoCo was going to be very busy this AM.
How far is your resort from Galice? You don’t have to answer that.
Nope she is not even out of bed yet is my guess….
I am Galice
If I remember correctly, as a kid I used to tube over the Galice rapids down from Indian Mary, no life jacket of course. If my poor mother would have known, she would have freaked out. I used to swim across the river at Indian Mary, too. People jumped in the river on the other side from that spot I think. Those were the days!
What happened on #37????
I am not sure what happened I tried to use and arrow and it just didn’t send it. People still do all that still river stuff, it is job security for some now 🙂
Tara are you still watching with one eye??
Ok, totally off topic, but since everyone else here is currently off topic, I guess it’s ok.
As a coffee fanatic, I just couldn’t resist all the talk about this wonderful Dutch Bro. coffee, so I just ordered some and if it doesn’t live up to all of the oh’s & ah’s here, I will hold each and everyone who has praised it responsible. ; )
Just kidding, of course. But I really did order some.
Hi! Good Morning!
I found this quote from a CNN interview transcript, I just wanted to share:
“HAHN CHOI, FRIEND AND FORMER COLLEAGUE OF JAMES KIM: ‘As a father, I know he loved his kids so much. And his wife. He loved them so much. I know he would do anything for them.’
SIMON: Hahn Choi used to work for James at another high-tech venture, but says it felt more like a friendship.
CHOI: ‘I never saw him get mad. He was one of those people you could talk to all the time, you know? You know, it’s strange, because, you know, he was just a really good, good human being. It just doesn’t — you don’t find that very often.'”
Very Nice Dutch is the only way to go (for coffee)!!!
Yeah, I was quite the adventurer as a kid.
46- Very Nice Lisa, from interviews I have read and stories the media has given out I truley believe he as a true golden person.
44 – Lisa, I think I saw a clip of that person’s interview about James, or read it. JK had to have been a great guy to know and work with.
re43: Oh well, we have to talk about SOMETHING waiting for Jan 5th to come around! Frances, let us know what you think about the Dutch Bros!
Just in case anyone didnt’ see this last night in the shuffle, this is Kati’s review of her husband on Yelp. I don’t think it could be said better. How lucky for her to have had him and for him to have had her, too:
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.
We are apparently Dutch Bros. deprived in the Evil State of CA. Or at least I’ve never heard of it. But you all have spurred me to go find a cold Red Bull in the fridge to assist in recovering from last night!
51- I skipped the coffee this morning also and went straight for the Diet Pepsi
Okay, I had to go look it up, and we DO have Dutch Bros., in Central and Northern CA. Not where I live, it would be a 3 hour drive. And it would have to be VERY, VERY, VERY good for that to happen!
Here is another CNN transcrpt quote:
“JOHN RASHER, HELICOPTER PILOT: ‘First, I saw movement down in the trees, and something rapidly moving back and forth. As I got closer, I could see it was someone waving an umbrella.
When I got up to her, there was an SOS stormed in the snow, in big letters, probably five feet high. And then next to that it said “out of gas,” that was stomped in the snow.
I didn’t feel comfortable landing there. It was very tight where she was. I couldn’t have landed right where the car was.’
ZAHN: Another helicopter is called in. It maneuvers into the narrow pass. What they find is a miracle.
DANIEL TOWNSEND, VOLUNTEER PILOT: ‘Her first response when I walked up to her is, she just had a big smile on her face, she was jumping up and down, you know, just saying, thank you for finding us, for getting us.'”
re52RRR: Oh yeah, only difference here is before coffee I go straight for the REAL Pepsi!
good morning all!!
The tree crew is here this AM already. The saws are a rippin’!
Good Morning JOCO hahahahahahahha
Hi JoCo, nice to see you!
This place is so funny…
RRR – I can’t believe you beat me here…did you set your alarm clock?
and just yesterday, you were making fun of me for being so addicted to this place…ha ha
54- What a moment that rescue was, incredible! We should probably remind anyone not entirely familiar with the case that they didn’t get stuck from running out of gas but ran out due to keeping warm from the heater for as long as they could stretch out their fuel.
Tara, are you still here?
re50: Yes, she must miss a guy like that so much!!! 😥
Well yes I had an alarm set but not for this just to get up this morning!
tara?????? yooo hoooo???
Oh what? I show up this morning and everyone bails?
65 – Yes, definitely. The thing that struck me is that Kati sounds like she has a great sense of humor (many of her Yelp reviews are quite funny) and truly appreciated James – even publicly like in that review, and that’s not super common – and I really think that her girls can’t help but grow up well with someone like that as an influence that can show them humor and appreciation just be being herself.
re63: Technically they did not get stuck by “running out of gas”. But running low on gas was mentioned early in several accounts as influencing their decisions. They may have planned on getting more gas in Merlin area but couldn’t find a station open. What do you say locals? Are stations open at 10:30pm in the area where they got off the freeway? Wow, I almost feel guilty talking about this. Almost.
stations in merlin closed that late for sure!
And we established yesterday I think, that the last place that they got gas was in Halsey (near Albany)..someone did the math on that too..
THere are two gas stations in Merlin one RIGHT off the freeway that is open until 11 on weekends 10 on weeknights, the second is in the town of merlin and it is about 3 miles off the freeway it closes around 9
Good morning everyone!
I can’t keep up…go to bed at way too late an hour, wake up and find a couple hundred posts since I signed off…so it is futile to complain about sleep depravation since all of you by default must be way more deprived than I.
74 – Good Morning Sunshine, Paul! Yes, depravation is an understatement. All I know is that it was after 2AM.
JoCo, good morning! Your OR locals have been taunting the rest of us about the good coffee up there, no fair! By the way, I found a number of 4WD clubs listed in OR, a few from the southern area. There’s got to be somebody who knows whether these particular groups would be a good fit to help with SAR ops (I’m sure they already are helping out in many locations).
What you wouldn’t want would be what we used to refer to as the “hot dog” groups who had no regard for the land, safety or anything else, just drinkin’ and drivin’. The legitimate clubs tended to be family oriented and not like that at all, but again, I haven’t been involved in the activity for a long time. Some of your other SAR groups likely have experience working with these clubs as volunteers, I can’t think they wouldn’t have hooked up by now. I’ll keep nosing around…
JoCoSAR- there was frost INSIDE my car last night when I left, can’t say I have EVER had to scrape the INSIDE of my window!!!
D.H. – visited your site, see that you’re a Duck alum (assume from the music school). Very cool.
RogueRiverRat78 – you ARE Galice, interesting. So, as a local, and one who would be definitely impacted by policies with Bear Camp road, what is your opinion of all the various suggestions posted here on what to do with BC going forward ??
p.s. – you all type WAY faster than I can.
So that one right off the freeway PROBABLY was still open. Hmmm… It was about 220 mi. from Halsey. So they only has about 80 miles to spare, if that. They probably burned that up quick on that spur road, heating with it, etc. But… they probably would have had enough gas to turn around and go back to Galice/Merlin I would think.
72 – Yes, JoCo, tara did the math on it back in comment 355 of page 3:
“my findings are that the saab fuel tank at capacity is 301 miles. From hasley to galice without any side jaunts its 169.89 miles. If they didnt stop anywhere else they had a little less than half a tank of gas.”
I don’t think it would be likely that they stopped in Merlin for gas after that unless they used a different card or something – not likely.
Here are some more CNN transcript quotes I thought were
“PHIL FLEMING, KATI KIM’S FATHER: ‘At this point — I have certainly a big bag of emotions, it’s been an extremely difficult week. I am elated that the children have been found and that we have our babies back. But I have an intense worry about James at this point.’
ZAHN: ‘Kati, seen in this photo taken at the rescue site, pleads for the search to continue. She hasn’t seen James since he set out on foot two days before.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Apparently. Must have been the hardest decision that man ever faced in his life, to leave his wife and his two babies in an area where he knew was nothing.’
HELLER: ‘That is just very, very nasty terrain down in there. Mr. Kim was going from one side to the other. He was going through the water, trying to work his way downstream.
There were many times that our searchers were — while they were trying to follow him, they could not figure out how he had got from one point to another.’
GRIFFIN: ‘But James was leaving clues to help searchers track him.’
HELLER: ‘Looks like it’s part of a skirt.’
GRIFFIN: ‘As we retrace James Kim’s journey, Sergeant Heller continues to find more evidence Kim was leaving a trail.’
HELLER: ‘It is a wooden teething ring. Says “haba.” H-a-b-a.
It appeared that he was leaving these clothing articles to, you know, to mark his trail.’
GRIFFIN: ‘At this point in the search, Heller and other rescuers still had hope.’
HELLER: ‘My gut feeling was that he’s alive, he is cognizant. He’s doing his best to make sure that we can find him.’
GRIFFIN: ‘Did you have hope?’
HELLER: ‘Yes. At that point, definitely definitely had hope. ‘
GRIFFIN: ‘But they were still far behind.’
I’m assuming anyone at that gas station right off the 5 at Merlin would have come forward and/or was interviewed in case they paid with cash?
72- JoCo, I know we talked about the gas in or near Albany, but is that based on recollection or strictly gas receipts? I realize most people may tend to use their cards for all their gas on a trip to track it, but we’ve been known to drop in some extra gas using cash on the spur of the moment, say at a pit stop (“let’s top it off while we’re here”).
I can’t say that really in the winter it would impact me not as a local but our resort we don’t do alot of shuttles in the winter so no real effect on us, I believe signage would and could be improved HOWEVER people will so go up to play and those who are curious from the coverage of all of this
220 miles from Halsey to Gold Beach I should say. According to Google maps.
84 – I hate to say it, but yes, count me curious this summer. I intend to take that drive. I’ll rent something more suitable than the useless Mustang, and I’ll go when it’s very summer (August or so – anything before July 4th is very iffy…), and I’ll bring extra everything just in case, but yah, I’ll be one of many that will probably go take a peek.
86- personally for me as a “local” and a SAR member and business person of galioce that is what is the scarest for me from all the media coverage of the area are going to be the looky-loo (no ofense Maggie) these seems to also be the people who get into trouble
80 – On the highway it would get the 301 miles, but on Bear camp rd the gas mileage would go down I think.
84 – You’ve run a lot of shuttles for us over the years, and we always stop on my way to our put-in at Argo for a refresher on the back deck. You live in paradise.
I assume the shuttle route through Powers closes about the same time and for the same reasons as Bear Camp ? So in winter you have to go all the way to Gold B and up and around?
re86: No, I ain’t peekin’ or travelin’ on Bear Camp! I’m a scaredy cat at my age 55. Not unless I get driven in there by RRR when I DJ a party!
88 – You are not going to get great mileage on B. Camp, steep climb, twisty road…
89- True Powers way is sometimes closed the same time, Yes we go ALL the way around.
90- Maybe I should add a tour company to galice “Bear Camp Tours” so people then can look but not get lost or stuck!!! hhmmmm
re90: So now that I brought that up RRR, how would I get into your place to DJ for you? I have a big 15pax Dodge Van… high clearance, but…
87 – River, yes, I can understand that. My plan was to just go see the Redwoods, but I won’t be able to just drive past. I promise that I’ll be one of the very, very careful ones with the right vehicle/right time of year/right time of day/provisions, etc. I do think that you are right, though – Oregon seems to be the looky-loo state (at least that’s how it usually is on my commute whenever someone pulls over even for a flat tire…).
RRR, you can also email me from the DJ site I gave you last night.
re92: RRR, I think you may be on to something! 🙂
Hey RRR – still no word from anyone…only phone call was from my old boss…I am dyin here!!!
93- Oh in the summer time you can take Bear Camp we go 2 sometimes 3 times a day over that road with our 15 pas vans and a carvan of customer shuttle cars. However I still believe sticking to the MAIN higways 101 and the other that cuts to I5 is the way to go and is prettier!
97 – I at least got to tell him our frustrations from the table last night..he agreed. He has a 10:30 this morning.
99- BUmmer deal! At least he made the list!
Welll….. I’ll be looking for some VERY good directions if the time comes. I have a lot of DJ gear, not just a microphone and CD player. 🙂
101- I have put you on my music list for this next year I am sure I will be in touch with ya!
(45) I don’t get it…every time I have gone out for dutch coffee…I get stuck with the whole tab!
and…yes…I am back!
My daughter’s family lives in Medford, so I’d be driving from that direction and staying with her.
99- I am sitting in the same room as my father he is telling me about the animals dancing in the woods!!! AAAGGGGHHHH
dancing with critters??
re102: Cool, RRR! I’ll look forward to it!
103- Hmmm bummer how that works out for ya
re105: What’s in your coffee this AM?
109- Sorry I went straight for the Diet Pepsi no coffee
103 – Welcome back, Glenn! That was funny 🙂
re101: And trust me, you wouldn’t believe how much emergency and survival gear I have right now! It’s embarrasing!
Hi Glenn!! I missed you…
Last set of CNN Transcript quotes (I just found there was
some interesting information that I hadn’t heard before,
and since we’re waiting for the 5th and the resport and
all…) But of course, it’s optional to read if you want to:
“ZAHN: ‘After nine days stranded in the snowy mountains of southern Oregon, Kati Kim and her two children are safe.
For Kati’s father, Phil Fleming, the news is bittersweet.’
FLEMING: ‘It was just unbelievable joy to have my three girls back. That joy, however, is tempered over our concern about James.’
ANDERSON:’ We are going to continue to look until we find James. We are operating on the assumption that he’s still alive. And we’re going to try to find him.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘They are going to have to follow the creek, or hop the creek and go over here, where they can walk. And I don’t know if they can, because no one’s ever been there.’
ZAHN: ‘Rescuers traced his footprints. ‘
ANDERSON: ‘We brought in a specialist for — a man tracker that we can put in, see if we can find his footprints, and continue to work that out.
We’re continuing to work it today. If we don’t find him today, we’ll continue to search tonight, and we’ll do it again tomorrow.’
ZAHN: ‘But it’s James himself who gives the search teams hope. Rescuers find the clues he’s left behind.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘A blue girl’s skirt and pieces of an Oregon state map that were sort of cut up. And these, according to the information I have, were sort of placed, again, with our belief that little signs are being left by James for anyone that may be trying to find him.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘You have hope. You put somebody in there and you don’t give up on it. You go to the bitter end with it. And you know, when they announced it, it was pretty quiet in my aircraft.’
ZAHN: ‘James Kim, father and husband, had hiked more than 16 miles through brutal terrain before freezing to death. A state trooper called his journey super human.’
ZAHN (on camera): ‘James Kim’s tragic story is fascinating because there are some ways it might have ended differently. Just like it is for all of us, life is filled with coincidences, choices made that could have gone a different way, leaving all of us wondering what if?’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Edge Wireless put a gentleman over here. It was through his computer model that we were able to locate a cellular tower hit that concentrated the search in the Bear Camp area.’
ZAHN: ‘But in the end, James Kim’s footprints saved his family.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Apparently the private helicopter pilot that actually saw them said he tracked Mr. Kim’s footprints in the snow to this location. And he said he had picked the footprints up back on this road and tracked the prints back out here to the vehicle.’
ZAHN: ‘James Kim’s story: five days in the frozen wilderness, a 16 mile hike in sneakers, came so close to a happy ending.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘So I want to make sure that’s clearly understood. They did nothing wrong. James Kim did nothing wrong. He was trying to save his family.’
(113) Nice to see you finally up! I was back first thing this AM…what time did you guys go to last night?
They did NOTHING wrong
115 – It was after 2AM, that’s all I know.
115- It was 20 to 2 when I left
Lisa, thanks for posting those excerpts, very interesting. The last one is so poignant. We need to quote the last two or three sentences whenever the Pac wannabes show up here to begin railing about James making bad decisions.
Maggie – your photo was hilarious!! I haven’t been out for one since the search ended!! I needed that!! Thank you..
120- Just highlighting that they did do nothing wrong
116RRR: Your opinion?
I keep dreading PacNWer showing up here the same time as Kati’s dad. No doubt he is shadowing, and he did not jump in last night.
121 – Just so anyone who wants to know is in the loop – yesterday I took a picture of my Dutch Brothers on my desk at work (yah, I work) because I got a new camera that I was playing with, and I sent it to JoCo in case she needs one while working on the investigation paperwork and can’t get away to get one. A virtual pick me up.
123- Remember it is my opinion……They did do nothing wrong for the situation they were in…THey stayed with the car….rationed food…burnt tires for heat…….It is text book “hug a tree” program…….I question what the thoughts were as they were driving up the road, back road, not alot of signs, dark, no traffic, when I travel I can’t say I would have continued down a road with conditions as that
I think the point is they made innocent mistakes.
It’s a kind of relative right/wrong where when
someone gets into trouble because they don’t
really know the dangers at the time – and then
they try so very hard to do all they can to
make it better to the point where it takes their
life, that it’s more important to acknowledge
what they did right – trying – than what they
did wrong, when they didn’t know better at the
I’m sure that was said shortly after the full
outcome was known, during an especially emotional,
grieving time. When you focus on respect.
124 – Paul, I would like to hope that Pac would have some sensitivity – I’ve said before, I tend to be optimistic and sometimes naive, but I really would hope. If Kati’s dad has read a bit of this, I think he’d know anyway how most of us feel. There are plenty of Pac’s out in other places – we’ve been lucky, really, to have so few.
As I told JoCoSAR last night, I wish that there was a way to “Download” peoples minds after they have passed, To know the thought process that someone has in a situation as the Kims and to make choices as they did befuddles me.
Well Folks as much as I would love to stay and chat I must be on my way the shower calls me…..I have a 11:30 meeting I must prepare my self for….I shall check back later gaters!!
128 – Maggie, I would hope too but for the fact that he has never shown anything but overt INsensitivity and has, in fact, gone out of his way to incite turmoil and controversy and offend everyone ( i.e. the ridiculous joint commentary). I gave up hope with that one some time ago.
127 – Well put, Lisa. At some point they realized what the situation had become (understandable mistakes getting into it), but it was too late to undo it, and they made great decisions from there. Kati and the girls lived through it. James almost did.
131 – Yah, Paul, you are likely correct. I’m just a good hoper 🙂
(129) you would be amazed at some of the researching going on there…they hope some day to have a virtual replay of the memories. It would be a huge victory in crime solving. Plus you could pass life experiences from generation to generation.
134 – Wow, Glenn. That’s one of those kind of cool/kind of scary things right there.
134…better than truth serum, huh?
Will let you know, D.H. Did I read where you are currently in D.C.? On my side of the country…Well, including shipping was only $18, so if everyone who oh’d & ah’d chips in, it shouldn’t be too much out of pocket to reimburse.
Joking aside, can’t check in like I was able to do for a few days last week and when I do get a chance to check in, is for limited time, so I can’t keep up with everything.
Especially like last night when Katie’s dad checked in, posting was so fast and so much… whew … but I’m trying to at least get the gist of things. Today seems just as fast.
See if anyone can help – if I print out the posts, it is much too small to read for old eyes, if I copy & paste into a word processing program, it looses the numbering.
Is there a way to print out so the font size is readable and not loose numbering of post?
Good morning to everybody!
RRR’s talking about brain downloading! It’s a great good idea:
127 – I feel that the measure of people isn’t that they make mistakes and get into messes from time to time, we all do. It’s how they handle an emergent situation, and these people did a valiant job of trying to utilize their resources. And I loved that James (and Kati, too, I’m sure) kept things under those horrific circumstances as normal as possible for the kids, reading stories, pretending they were camping, etc.
Thinking about the Kims made me remember once getting lost driving back from Oregon late at night when my kids were young. We were going through the Redwoods area, and what a place that is at night! I think we were supposed to stop, but husband had an abcessed tooth and we needed to keep going for home (truly get-there-itis).
Dumb and dumber to drive through there unfamiliar with the roads in the pitch black night. Fortunately, we ended up having gone in a big circle and got back to the place we turned off, finally. But for luck, we could have just as easily gotten on a side road and been no different than the Kims.
139 – Madeline, that describes my feelings exactly. Right down to getting lost (not Redwoods, but close enough, and no bad tooth).
138 – Playstation 5 – that’s really amazing.
Christopher Walken stared in a moved about that – it was
really wild – made a big impression on me. They could
record people’s consciousness. And then you could put
on head phones, and strap in, and experience it, including
the feelings. It was called “Brainstorm.” It was a kind
He was good in it. It’s one of those movies that really
made an impression. I’ve seen a lot that I don’t remember…
But you have to be in the mood for it.
re137: No, I’m not from D.C. Visited there once! 🙂 I’m on the good old central Oregon Coast, Newport area.
138 – Hi, Joe, Good Morning from one of the zombies.
Re: Your link: With my luck, I’d have a smarmy, smart-mouthed computer that had downloaded the brain cells of someone like.., well, nevermind, it would get ugly.
144 – Yeah, last night was the zombie zoo 🙂
145 – Have you noticed that later at night is when the good breakthroughs seem to happen? JoCo casually drops a tantalizing tidbit, or Kati’s dad appears and completely energizes the whole place! The very basis for addiction, itermittent “treats” of information.
I’ve driven on mountain roads Colorado at night –
narrow winding roads up high with immense
drop-offs – that have that kind of grating that makes
your vehicle bounce all over the place… And in a
lightweight small pick-up truck with nothing in the
back it’s hard to control, and you think you’re going
to bounce right off the edge…
What started out as a fun mountain ‘night time drive’, becomes much more…
I’ve driven similar logging roads in Oregon, up above the Umpqua, but now I know better to do it in the daytime, and
try to not look over the edge!
And I better stop soon because my typos are starting to
get the best of me… for some reason it is easier to
spot them in the font on the blog than in this little
146 – Have notice that too, that many momentous items seem to come in the evening…hence the dark shadows under my eyes today.
sorry- rrr or joco was asking if I was here earlier. Im in and out.
Speaking of the evening I’ll check back in later.
Gotta get some errands and work done.
PLEASE remember that I’m not here most of the time so please respect the other participants and avoid any abusive comments.
So there was a reference somewhere to there being 3 SARs online, either last night or this morning. I’m clear on RRR and JoCo, who is the 3rd ?
Lisa, drop offs are the one thing I cannot abide, would not want to drive those type of roads at night. I used to go to work on a perfectly nice two lane mountain road with dropoffs, and had to do it at night much of the time, which I hated. Even in broad daylight, it drove me nuts when I was on the cliff side. I always figured one of those hunched over guys on a loud motorcycle would take a curve wide coming down and knock me off the edge like a marble off a table.
(142) Johnny Mnemonic is a great movie about this…
You want drop-offs ? Try the gravel road in deep N.E. Ore. that goes to a place called Hat Point Overlook (looks into the Snake River Hells Canyon). Yikes.
(151) Who is Joe talking about? 🙂
151 – Joe, we will try to behave. I can’t say what you might come back to, though, if you go away for awhile.
146 – Madeleine yes this has become very addictive for that reason, I think. I’m afraid to leave the computer.
152 – Paul, not spreading rumors, so tara please correct if I’m wrong, but I think last night it turned out that tara is involved with SAR to some degree.
I sure hope Joe is not referencing my post 131. In fairness to all of us, it is more that someone comes along and purposely incites things with highly inflammatory commentary. As you observed yesterday Glenn, things are appropriately respectful up until that/it happens….and that’s is not to say we all agree all the time either. Accusations to the contrary, I don’t think this is “groupthink”.
I can’t talk here anymore..I have been “Sequestered” almost. I will continue to read, but not post. Sorry, thank you all! You know it will kill me! I will be back on the 5th for sure!
Does that mean Tara and RRR are going to disappear as well ?? Figured it was inevitable something like that might happen.
159 – We will miss you. Thank you again.
159 – JoCo, I was afraid of that! Now it will really be tough waiting ’til the 5th. Thanks for everything you have contributed to this discussion, it was invaluable.
134- Is everyone here perfectly OK with having their entire life downloaded???!!! After downloading some of that stuff, most likely shocking some of it… your ideas about your past relatives might change quite a bit… for anyone! No thanks! Stay outa my brain! You’d need some really good filters. 😯
re159: Oh crap!!!
Now, not only will I be waiting impatiently for Jan 5, I’ll be wondering why you were sequestered, which I will probably never know. 😥 oh well, it’s not all about me, that’s for sure.
Paul – I believe it’s tara?
Also – please learn from this:
One time after a night-time ice storm in the mountains
of Virgina, I was driving down the main ‘4 lanes in each
direction highway’, etc. I had pulled over the night
before, when I noticed the roads became eerily empty
around 7pm at night (early January). I turned on the
radio, and heard the ice storm warning. But the next day,
we were told the highway was salted and safe to drive
I was still being cautious – driving 55, while others
were whizzing by me, even though the grassy median and
sides of the road were littered with abandoned twisted
tractor-trailers and cars in unbelievable positions like
strewn toys which had to be abandoned the night before (many people slept in schools!)
Anyway, going over a long bridge, my light-weight small
pick-up truck immediately started fish-tailing completely
out of control – so much that my mouth opened wider than
it ever had and I couldn’t help but gasp in one continuous inhalation until I was at end of the bridge and I got control of my truck again.
Luckily I was alone on the bridge at time, because my
truck swerved completely into both of the other lanes
on either side of me at different times.
At the end, there was one thought in my mind – ‘terror’.
I just thought now I know the true meaning of ‘terror’.
I will never drive in those conditions again, even if
advised it is safe. Although it is true my truck was
light, and I didn’t have snow tires, etc. It’s still
not worth it to me.
My father and I also did a 360 on black ice once, where we
totally went into the on-coming lane in the beginning.
*There’s my personal Public Safety Warning!*
Im still here. and will be.
167 – Are you kind of / sort of SAR ? Why are you not subject to the sequestering ?…if you can safely say of course.
167 – Didn’t Vivien Leigh say we’ll always have Tara ?
169. it’s true. been here since day one. wont go anywhere. not even Pac can run me off.
166 – Lisa, thank you, so true. I can tell you, too, that the same exact thing can happen even in just rain. I know because I spun my Subaru (even a Subaru) in rain a few years back headed up towards Seattle on I-5. Came quietly to a stop on the side of the road in front of those that managed somehow to avoid me. That was the day I stoppped speeding for good. Especially in the rain – rain of all things! The next was my other Mustang that was totalled in the rain, going the speed limit, around a curve on one of Portland’s bridges – bouncing off the sides and just waiting for someone to come speeding up and hit it. We lived. Now I drive even slower – sure it irritates people, they honk, gesture, go around, etc., but the unexpected can happen, and I don’t need another jaw-dropper like you described. Let’s all be safe out there 🙂
I know it’s kind of intense but I just wanted to share
that because maybe it will help save one of you or
someone you care about one day…
Snow is bad for numerous reasons, but ice is really
Now I don’t like to drive in icy conditions – at all.
*I think too Paul that west-coasters may be having lunch!*
re:166 – This is a funny story, not too serious. I probably won’t confess the serious road/ice experiences. Logging roads at Johns’s Peak, Medford area, Jacksonville hills, used to ride dirt offroad motorcycles (dirt bikes) all over those roads (never really got lost, they eventually got you back to starting spot). One particulary boring winter in the valley, myself and my X (blechh!) were going stir crazy and took the bikes up to John’s Peak in the snow. So we were riding up the roads ok in the mountains (not good roads you know probably like Bear Camp spur roads)… all of a sudden my back tire spun out and I ran square into a tree. I was OK what with all my football player looking protective gear and helmet on. Only thing is… ALL the snow in the tree fell squarely on top of me.
Actually, I’d ride in that gear in desert motorcycle races over by Bend, and occasionally I would fall, of course. It got so I kind of liked falling, because I could roll all the way down a rocky hill without even getting hurt. I know, I’m warped.
(159) probably for the best…good luck…look forward to your return – Happy New Year 2 u JoCoSAR.
173 – Are you a ‘tomboy’? 🙂
166 – The short version of my icy experience: on my way to 3rd shift work on a nice 2 lane that was iced over, the wind spun my car around until it stopped facing home. I took it as a sign and drove home and called in. No harm, no foul, just less a day’s pay.
159 – Sorry to hear that JoCo won’t be posting. I wonder if someone above her/him has been reading her posts…
re175 – Oh, definitely! 😈
159. that totally irritates me. not on her part but just the whole waiting deal. I dont wait well.
What I meant was Gayle, yes, I’m definitely a Tomboy.
I hope that superiors haven’t been reading, but as we well know now, just about anybody could be reading. It’s almost tempting to move to a private message board, but that would exclude so many people, and someone would feel left out, and part of the point of this board is for everyone to learn positive things and get the most possible contributions to solutions.
Yes, Maggie, I agree. I tend to drive more slowly too
now – especially in wet conditions. That experience turned
me into a slow lane (not under the speed limit) but better ‘safe than sorry’ driver.
I also had a close call once on interstate 95 where it was
5 or 6 lanes across, and I was in the far left ‘fast lane,’
with a cement barrier to my left. I decided to change to
the next lane over, and as I was doing so, all of a sudden
I could feel that there was no power under my gas pedal. There was no ability to accelerate anymore… My whole leg
went numb with panic clear up to the top of my thigh…
Luckily, in those moments there was no one immediately
in the lanes to my right, so I was able to ‘coast’ over
to the right shoulder.
I got it towed, and they said my fuel valve had just shut
off. Just closed. “No fuel.” I had fuel in my tank, but it
couldn’t get through.
Now I have a different car, but
now I like to stay in the right lane! Happily!
For you who live with the snow/ice conditions, is it true that bridges ice up easier than the road? Lisa’s awful experience made me think of this. That’s what I was told when I worked in the mountains, “especially watch out for the bridges”.
Sometimes I think about how it was raising teenagers to make it through to age 20, and I’m SO glad we didn’t have awful road conditions to add into the mix. But I guess we make up for it with nuts who shoot people on freeways, etc. and innocent people stumbling into gang crossfire.
179 – A different car can be a very good thing. I have another Mustang now (that I hate when it’s not summer), and every day that it rains (mostly daily this time of year), I dread the commute if it goes fast enough. I know, I’m the only person who *wants* to be stuck in slow traffic when it’s like that because then I know I’ll make it home without hydroplaning. The minute I can afford a different car, I’m buying it. Hopefully before next winter.
Yes, bridges ice more easily than roads because they’re
exposed to the cold both from above and below.
The ground takes longer to get cold so roads are more
insulated in that way.
What year Mustang do you have?
re180: Ooooh…. that shooting people on the freeway when angry sounds like San Antonio… I lived there for 10 years in USAF. That happened to a fellow USAF band member there. Bullet went thru his door and shot his foot! Then on a side road near my house, I did something to irritate a guy in a truck, he opened his door and tried to kick my car! I’m sooo happy to have retired and living in quiet little South Beach, Oregon!
Anyway I have more questions about the ground search
and other aspects of the Kim case, but I guess it’s
true we’ll have to wait!
One aspect that I think is difficult is when you
have a family member who is lost in a not extreme
situation (like Mt. Hood) and you want to or are
able to look for them – but you’re not allowed
a lot (or most?) of the time.
tara – do you know about this?
If it was a situation where I felt like I was ‘up’
or fit to help in the search that would be extremely
frustrating for me.
I hadn’t pegged San Antonio for road rage. One of our staff was shot at one day after work on the 14 Freeway, and he was shaken up for months. It was strictly random, don’t think they ever caught the guy. Sometimes the gangs shoot at each other, and sometimes they “jump in” new members by making them go shoot at people! Other times, it’s just a sicko or “ordinary” road rage. Seems to come in clumps of incidents that may not be related, I think they feed off of each other.
I’m sure Pac would say the people should have known they might be shot at, worn a flak vest, bullet proofed their cars, etc. Uh-oh, Joe put us on quiet this a.m. with respect to saying things about others, so I’d better knock it off.
Although I understand the need for rules
in such situations to help keep order, it
seems to be one of those contradictions.
We live in a free country, but we can’t
help search and rescue our loved ones?
I’d be interested in hearing more about
those rules and guidelines…
185) I would think that some family members just search on their own anyway… not that I’m encouraging that! Could get in a lot of trouble/danger and get in the way of official search.
Wow, I think I can actually hear the wheels turning in JoCo’s head at this moment… the steam coming out of his/her ears… banging on the desk or the computer screen in frustration. Perhaps he/she should go take a walk. 😛
180 – In MN we have both snowy/icy conditions and the gang crossfire thing, at least in the Twin Cities, not so much the freeway shootings.
I wanted to say this last night but I was interested in hearing more from Dr. Fleming so Ill say it now.
I think it was mentioned to some degree, but I really think its important to be careful of what information is given in here. Personal information, assumptions of identity and thoughts spoken out loud should be weighed and measured carefully before posting.
You never know who is just silently reading.
Ever wonder if all these names posted are names and personallities JoeDuck made up and you are the only one whose not a part of Joes imagination? Hmmmmm….
Oh wow Gayle, lucky you! You have both! Do you have that Minnesota accent?
p.s. the reason why I mentioned the ice storm incident
was not only because my truck was fish-tailing, but
it was fish-tailing so wildly and out of control – like all over the other lanes – back, and forth, fast and swerving…
In a way I didn’t even know was possible…
But now you do, so you don’t have to learn the way I did!
192 – I would say…YA SURE, YOU BETCHA… and tell a good Lena and Olie joke but I am really not from around here. My first 30 yrs were in upstate NY and the next 20 in WA state and OR. I think my accent is generic. 🙂
An odd expression heard here in MN, I think, is ‘out east’. I always say ‘back east’ and ‘out west’. Guess it’s all where you’re from.
191 – Tara, you are right. Shame that we have to weigh and measure, but while some are lurking innocently and reading to learn, others may be skulking about gathering info to relay to who knows who for nefariuos purposes.
And if certain posters reside in Joe’s imagination, oh, man…
tara, do you mean in regard to my (187)?
Lisa, no that was a general note to all.
Im sure the answer you are looking for wont satisfy because it sure wouldnt satisfy me, but its true…. people can quickly become in need of rescue themselves while attempting to help.
#191: HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!! Not me, he could never imagine me!
Nor could he type that fast!
188 – Re: family members searching on their own. That’s what I was trying to say last night when I probably offended Kati’s dad by saying that I couldn’t have stayed home (he did exactly the right thing). I would have to be doing something at or nearby the scene. I’d be driving the last known route, checking places they might have stopped, based upon my knowledge of my kids, something. I don’t wait well (or follow directions well when told “no”, in a situation like this for that matter).
I wouldn’t go off into the woods or wilds looking for somebody, that’s not my area of expertise, not a hiker or tracker. They’d be looking for me, as well.
191 – Ever wonder if all these names posted are names and personallities JoeDuck made up and you are the only one whose not a part of Joes imagination? Hmmmmm….
Joe’d have to have multiple personality disorder…hmmmm
Either everyone suddenly fell asleep or Joe had to use the men’s room.
(191) I hear the footsteps…do you hear the footsteps?
would he use the mens room or the ladies room??
203 – I think everyone is getting a little paranoid about what to say and not say. Although your point about everyone falling asleep has merit, too.
(203) not all of Joe’s theorized personalities would be allowed in there – so based on your – ah let’s say interesting thoughts – please refer to a unisex facility out of respect for joe…and his merry band of personalities.
No worries Joe – I got your back!
(205) you know what they said about great minds…LOL…tara I think we both have issues! 🙂
Actually, a nap is sounding good to me. I don’t hear footsteps but I think I do hear the muffled sound of my pillow calling my name. 🙂
207 – lol, Glenn
Oh yeah – 209 – I couldn’t pull off a nap with the chain saws outside, the guys walking on my roof, the chunks of tree trunk falling on the roof making me think that someone just fell down hard in the kitchen!
191 – Tara, yes, I agree that we do need to be careful. I think Joe mentioned something like 2000 hits a day possibly reading along with all of us. Yikes, figments of someone’s imagination. I’m too sleep deprived to ponder that…
I want to talk about issues relating to the search,
but I feel like I can’t because of the investigation!
I was also curious about JoCoSAR’s posts 97 and 99,
but I don’t know what they mean.
I wish Joe would hurry up and get back from the bathroom!
I have no idea what they were talking about in 97 and 99, Lisa, sorry. Maybe RRR will be back after her appt???
I will probably probably be in and out of here until later this evening, when I will return more in earnest.
One problem I think that would be important to try
to find solutions for, as has been discussed, is finding a
way to determine when locals have a hunch or a lead,
how legitimate it could be.
Because sometimes locals know the area better than
anyone, and if John James of Black Bar Lodge noticed
tire tracks that stood out to him as suspicious
somehow, even though ‘there are tire tracks all over
And I know glenn and Joe Duck have talked about the
capacity of the internet to help with this aspect of SAR
After all, it was the helicopter pilot’s “hunch” that led to the fastest success, and could have led to even faster
success if he had set out on Saturday. He could even have
still found James on the road!
How awesome that would have been! Even if he had just
told someone about his hunch about them taking that wrong
turn at the fork, on 34-8-36, maybe one of Spencer Kim’s
hired helicopters could have searched there!
(He thought about setting out right away on Saturday, but
his family had Christmas tree cutting plans.)
I think the John Rachor, the helicopter pilot should
get a Hero award somehow…
I think John Rachor…
Tara is with us, but JoCoSar is not, and we still don’t know about RRR yet – I think work under the presumption that someone from one or more investigations is reading so comment accordingly if you in an “at risk” position.
214 – I wondered about those too.
217 – I think you bring up something that we really can’t answer without some feedback from someone actually involved. For instance, I could easily forsee a situation in ANY high profile SAR where the professionals involved are overwelmingly inundated with well informed, well intentioned, tips. How do you discern the good from the bad, the meaningless from the meaningful ?
For example, before JoCoSar weighed in, people took Sara R to task for following up on a tip from her husband’s employee, but why would that tip be any more or less credible than a tip from the owner of Black Bar??…esp when that person was all but certain they saw the Kim’s on the pass??
I’m not a SAR expert, so I’m just guessing, but maybe in high profile cases tips get ignored due to the sheer volume in deference to following defined policies and procedures that have stood the test of time.
It would be interesting to hear from someone in the know on this as it ties into so many elements of the Kim search.
217/221 – Lisa and Paul, I wonder about all of the local tips that pour in, too. It sounds like that may be part of what Glenn and Joe are working on as a way to somehow “filter” tips. Indeed, there must be plenty of them, especially once any real level of press becomes involved. I would be that there are typically some that are pretty wacky, some that are fairly likely/pertinent, and a few that could fall into both categories. In general, I’ve always wondered what kind of system is in place and what could be done to get the best/most likely to the top of the heap. I agree, Paul, that after the fact it’s easier to second guess why one particular “incorrect” lead was followed up on when another “correct” lead was not. Anyone know how it’s usually handled? Is there some system that’s similar to a “triage” (for lack of a better analogy on no sleep) for incoming tips? Great issue for discussion. I miss JoCo’s input…
Yes, it seems that right now they have a policy
where they may more or less ignore some tips and
investigate others further based on relative factors
at the time. Sara R’s husband’s employee having
somehow positively identified them? I don’t know
how that works when pictures of them and their
car/license plate have been all of the news.
I would be interested in asking John James why he
thought those tire tracks seemed significant and
worth mentioning as opposed to ‘tire tracks being everywhere’… there must have been a reason why
he thought it was important… it may still have
had to do with a ‘hunch’ and timing…
All I can say is, I’m glad John Rachor has a
And I’ll be checking back in later, but I think
I need a ‘nap’ too…
I’ll check to see if anyone’s around and responds
223 – Lisa, I’m around, but mostly working and kind of checking in. I will be interested after the 5th when JoCo has more freedom to discuss both the tips because I got the impression that she had plenty more to say about both of them and couldn’t…
Sounds good Maggie. I know we won’t hear for sure
until the 5th or after. But I was just wondering
if John James saw the tire tracks before there
‘were tire tracks everywhere’ – tire tracks that
went one way – and didn’t come back! And maybe
he checked further up the road…! I know he had
to stop when they ran out of snow, but these
questions still interest me…
225 – Lisa, they are definitely good questions. I’ve wondered the same.
I still have a hunch the “truth” – to the degree that we will ever know all of it – will fall somewhere in the middle. While it is true papers need to be sold, surely everything reported in the Sunday O article cannot be a fabrication and/or misinterpretation.
One facet we likely will never know with certainty is how events unfolded that night on that road. Kati’s memory could be far from perfect due to all the subsequent trauma and she may, understandably, not wish to talk about it with the media for years, if ever.
Afterall, John James probably has a better knowledge of
people’s general behavior on those roads than just about
That may be true, but last night her father made
it sound like she may be ready sooner. He said
she’s very direct, and she has an excellent
memory, and it sounded like he was very sure
227 – Paul, I’ve always agreed with you about the truth falling in the middle – if we ever hear all of it. From what Kati’s dad said last night, and reading her reviews on Yelp, I do get the idea that Kati will probably “tell it” at some point, and like many, I hope she does. I’ve also wondered how acurately she will be able to remember that first night – perhaps many of the things about their thoughts as the confusion began and that kind of thing (sometimes trauma does make those memories more elusive, but not always – hard to say), but since they were so desperately lost, I wonder if she would be able to say for sure things like which roads were what (for example whether they did ever actually get onto FS23 or actually turned around elsewhere on the spur). In any case, whatever she would want to say, I think we’d be all ears. For now, I’m looking forward to whatever bits we actually get to hear more “factually” on the 5th – yet I worry that it won’t necessarily be much that’s released. But you know me, hopeful anyway 🙂
I agree that the “truth” often falls in the middle…
p.s. I think he said when she’s ready she’ll ‘put it in
her own words’ or something like that.
229 – That is true. Given the intent to improve and prevent a recurrence, it would be good from the source why they kept going and what she feels would be appropriate to adequately warn someone in the future.
It kind of seems surprising to me that they hired a
‘footprint specialist’ to look in a creek bed in the
winter. For me, it’s just a time issue… One thing
about that creek bed, there weren’t a lot of places
he could go. It was forward, backward, or up, and all
the trail evidence he was leaving pointed forward…
I keep making typos all over the place “good to hear from the source” (233). Darn sleep deprivation….but hopeful Maggie, are you not in the heartland somewhere (2 time zones over) and did I not see that you were on until the wee hours last night ? I shouldn’t complain.
I commend your hopeful nature, it is a good quality to have.
Also, they knew from Kati his goal was to get down
out of the mountains…
233 – My pure speculation on why they kept going was because they either:
1. thought that they were still on the correct road (believing they were on Bear Camp Rd) or
2. realized they were very lost but thought that they could get un-lost if they just went a little more – until finally deciding to stop in a place where it was only raining hoping some rest and some daylight would give a different perspective to get out
(now that’s a question that just occurred to me that I hadn’t heard asked in so many words…).
Pac would say “get-there-itis,” but I’m not convinced. Had to have that word on here at least once today… 🙂
234 – Once you get down into it about a mile it is far more a sheer canyon than a creek bed. Topo maps show very severe slopes on both sides. Little wonder he was forced into the water some of the way, there was no other way down.
235 – Paul, I must be sleep deprived, too, because I read right past that as you meant to type it… I’m here in Portland with you guys (I think you both said you are here??) and was up until 2-ish. I need a nap. But I’m working…
237 – he’s been gone a while hasn’t he? Knock, knock furiously, on wood.
I get confused…then you’re the one in WA county, yes? I was confusing you with someone else. Lisa is PDX (or thereabouts) too ?
241 – Yep, that’s me.
Yes, so why a ‘footprint specialist’ in such a
Yes, I’m in Portland.
Yes – I’m near Mt. Tabor.
Much as I hate to give P any credit, I think he’s onto something with his sunk-cost thing. The turn-off to Bear Camp is 13 or 14 curvy miles off the 5. They knew the right route was another hour back up the 5. I think of all the times I’ve gone over the route from PDX to the coast in winter weater; you encounter snow and you think it will only last a short while – if I can just get over the summit I’m home free.
Lisa near Mt. Tabor ? Has Lisa near Mt. Tabor been down the Rogue ?
Right next to it, actually. Looking out my window at it
– one of my favortie views, ever. I love Mt. Tabor.
247 – Ah, the Lisa I know near Mt. Tabor cannot see it from her window. That would have been too coincidental / small world’ish.
Not down the Rogue, but to Roseburg, and down the
Umpqua… (though not on a raft – swimming!)
That’s true – one time I was going to Cannon Beach in
April and it was snowing in the Coast Range!
249 – Different Lisa, but you really should try it sometime, it is the most beautiful trip. Abundant wildlife, beautiful scenery, exhilarating whitewater, I’ve been hopelessly hooked for over 25 years.
Time for my nap…
I would love to go there sometime… It’s a shame
about the bisquit fires though. It was the bisquit
fire there, right?
biscquit? yes, sleep time…
Hardly affected the canyon at all, add it to your list of must-things-to-do.
Sleep deprived brain confusing biscuit with Bisquick ? – definite nap time indicator.
Yes! (On both accounts!)
The Bisquick fire is the one that happened in your oven when you forgot to set the timer. Ok, I’ll quit while I’m ahead.
Nighty nappy, Lisa. I’m so jealous.
Paul, I do understand completely about the sunk-cost thing and have experienced that myself also headed to the coast when it was iffy and not really wanting to head all the way back that far in – though if it looked just bad enough, I would anyway. So, to a degree, I think it’s possible here, but more than that, I just really don’t think they had any idea quite what they were up against or that it was really going to get that bad – until it acutally did and was too late to turn back because they didn’t know how to get “back.” Maybe that’s the point – I’m not sure. I do think it’s separate/different from the idea of wanting to get to their nice hotel so badly that they would take such a risk – I really just can’t fathom that. Who knows. These are the things that maybe, just maybe, Kati will feel like discussing some day, but otherwise it’s so hard to say for sure. So many possible lines of thinking.
263 – Well hello there!
Hi RRR, what can you tell us? How come you don’t have the number at the end of your screen name tonight? How ya doin?
I can’t tell ya much cause I am at a sar boar meeting right now listening to a detective
266 – Glad you could show up. Be careful.
263 – Yay, it’s R3! Are you back, can you stay?
266) Ah, I see, how interesting. You have a webrowser on your cell phone? Laptop? Wireless? Sorry, just curious.
I am slow to type I am on my phone internet. I will be here for it for a bit
Is that silly board meeting going to be over soon so you can attend to the really serious stuff here?
it started aT 4 I hope it is over soon its like listening to a campaign blah
No, I’m not offended by what I read here. I think it appropriate and natural to ask questions. Kati has told me many details, but I haven’t really asked her specific questions. She will tell the story in her own fashion.
On the subject of my not going to Oregon right away, I just say we all react differently and I think it is quite alright for some folks to view that in a critical light. I struggled with that decision and in retrospect, I feel comfortable that I did right thing given Sandy’s mother state of mental distress and my great uncertainity in knowing I might be helpful. I suppose my best role would have been interacting with the professional search and rescue team. Anyone remember the Floyd Collins story? His DAD walked around signing autographs. I think for a fee.
the up coming sheriff is here. . . .
RRR, someone asked me earlier if I was a Tomboy because I talked about riding dirt bikes. I was proud to say yes. Are you a Tomboy? Just killing time, not really an important question.
RRR, so how do you like that new sheriff?
Hi Mr. Fleming, who’s Floyd Collins? Guess I don’t remember it .
yeah I am a bit of a tom boy but I caN clean up with the best of them
Maggie and Madeleine, where are you guys?
I am going to stay neutral on my feelings on the new sheriff
Of course, I understand RRR.
I think most of us would have done the same thing. At the time, I put full faith in searchers. It wasn’t until afterward (unsuccesful search for James) did I start to ask questions and feel uneasy about placing too much faith in the protocols and the search methods. I am not saying that I am being critical now, just that I identify with your reasoning, and I am certain its just that stable sort of attitude you have that will be of great benefit to your family.
Kati’s Dad, since you’re a doctor (med dr.?) are Kati’s feet doing OK I hope?
Dr. Fleming. I love the way you talk about your daughter. You seem to hold her in high reguard. Thats very nice.
(273) Thanks for your post. Appreciate your perspective on all of this…blogging is an amazing thing…very glad you were not offended.
ok all iam blowing this joint cathc ya’ll when I get home
Good RRR, see ya later.
Hey, Phil! This is Ellen (Zoner Frank wife, in MA). I’m a lurker here, but have been curious to ask if anyone yet knows who sent the textmessage to the cell phone. Was it a friend who was aware that the family was missing? A technical professional who knew that a text message required less “oomph” than an actual cell phone call to get through? Or was it just one of those “mysteries of life” that bless us every now and then? If you don’t want to reply here (although there may be general interest in your answer), send me word via Frank’s e-mail.
Well its a testament to Dr. Flemings strenth. Because, it didn’t take much for me to get offended, and I have certainly spoken my piece about it on occasion! I hope that is okay with the Flemings even though I’m not involved and it may have been at times better to ignore the few that have been rude and, frankly amazingly unempathatic to the point of being inhuman, in my opinion. The whole thing is just so very EASY for me to understand. Who hasn’t gotten lost?
The more I look at that map too, the more it bothers me. Has anyone else noticed that the roads in that area do not even have names on that ODOT map?
I’m not blaming the map makers but they seriously need to look at that ODOT map and get to working on a better map. I would think this, no matter if that was factor in Kati and James decisions that night.
Thanks for stopping in again Dr. Fleming.
288) I thought the text message came in before they even stopped on the 1st night (Sat.) So a tech pro would not even know they were lost yet. In fact, friends didn’t think they were missing yet either, it had just happened. If the messages came in some other time, then I guess I’m wrong. But I think it was that very first night that they got lost.
I don’t think Kati’s Dad is going to be posting much or carrying on conversations here, I could always be wrong tho. So why don’t you all just come back in here, sit down, and act normal?
glenn has never acted normal. 🙂
Okay. I did a little Googling.
Quoting news reports: “One of the Kims’ cell phones had received two text messages around 1:30 a.m. on Nov. 26, the day after the family was last seen at a restaurant in Roseburg, Ore.”
So we are talking about late Saturday/early Sunday morning of Thanksgiving weekend.
I think I just answered my own question. No way it could have been a SAR person. Nor was any friend/family yet aware they were missing. Must have been just someone sending a normal communication to them. Yet, I still wonder if this person is even aware of the role that he/she played in finding Kati and the girls. Would the cell phone logs trace the sender as well as the recipient?
For someone who was so critical of going off topic and such in the beginning, you have really opened up.
In my opinion things have gotten a little out of control, but that is my opinion, its a forum, a blog, its under Joe’s control only, but he doesn’t have time to sit around and moderate.
I do hope some of the chatter while talking about more serious subjects fade’s into the backgroud. We are in the midst of people that have lost members of their family and I think they will speak for themselves when and if they feel like it.
I do hope everyone remains on good behavior and tries to stick to the topic of conversation, and in my mind the topic is pretty broad, its just that latley its gotten a bit too crazy, does anyone agree?
Maybe its just me…
I thought I had also read that someone (was it an edge wireless person?) had gotten the phone numbers and started sending text messages. Is this right? Or something like that?
Good Evening Folks
294) Mapper, people change their minds. I mean, I could go back and research what was going on in the period you’re referring to, but I’d rather not. I think you’re choosing to remember “negative” things, move on, don’t carry a grudge.
I’m not trying to “speak for” anybody. Noone was “speaking” at all!!!!!
Oh, hi again RRR.
See, I leave my desk from work to come home, and Kati’s Dad stops back in again. Thank you, Mr. Fleming, for popping in again. I am very glad that you are not offended. I understand that you did what you needed to do by being where you were while the search was going on, and I don’t think anyone can give any good reason why you should have done any differently. Even if someone could, it really would be none of his business. I am very glad to hear that you are not signing autographs for a fee – not sure I ever heard that story… Kati is so lucky to have a dad like you in her corner. You clearly love her and support her, and that’s really so nice to see. You all hang in there and keep knowing that we’re thinking of you.
295- did the text msg ? get answered?? Sorry trying to catch up
294 – Mapper, even though I feel like I’m one of the guilty parties, I’ll back you that today has gone WAY off topic – not that it’s anything offensive necessarily, but more like a chatroom. That’s not an all bad thing, even kind of good, to a degree. There is a line somewhere (hey, you are the map girl), and I felt like we were nudging over it just a tad. Way back on page one I was almost afraid to post for fear of muddying things up because it was very on topic – now it’s become almost complete opposite. Somewhere in between there is a line, I think. Just my opinion.
302/ It was the text message that Edge got the “ping” off of.
304- Correct but do you know that your cell phone is constantly receiving “pings” its the satellites sending the info to it
304 – It really would be kind of nice to know who it was that sent those two messages (I think there were two back to back). Even if I never got to find out who, just for that person or person(s) to know that somehow the signal made it through and helped.
I have heard that there is really no way to find out who sent them….We have had other searches where text messages have let us know where people are because they take so much less battery power and air wave stuff to send
I read and its possible that its not right but I read that it was a text message from the house sitter. She was worried because the Kims were supposed to be home to relieve her and she hadnt heard from them. She attempted numerous calls but all went to voice mail. Then she attempted the text message. Again, I READ that.
Jeeze… Pac’s not here so we have to create our own controversy.
I agree with Mapper. We need to stay close to topic. It’s hard to participate when things keep going way off.
air wave stuff??? nice…..
311-Air wave is my technical term 🙂
308 – Tara, there’s a good point – whoever sent the text would know that they sent it. If they speak up, we’d know. I’m not sure otherwise if either sending/receiving cell phone companies could or not…?
Thanks, I was trying not to be harsh, glad you understand. I am guilty too so if i was noticing it I knew something must be different!
I just want to say I am very honored that people close to Kati have joined us, that SAR people have joined us, and I hope everyone feels welcome to post here, join the conversation and that the regulars here, well were not like a clique that you cant break. I hope that makes sense.
However with the coverage you would think that people know text msg played a big role and they can assume they helped out in their own mind
314 – Came through crystal clear, Mapper. Maybe you could make some of the new and improved and better explained maps 🙂
So I sat in a meeting today about the search and the investigation, I don’t want to damper anyones hopes, however I just don’t want you all to be disapointed if the 5th comes along and you all hear no new word, the word is they will take their time the timeline is the 5th but if they can’t get things done then they will take the time they need
317 – Thank you for updating us, River. At least there’s a target date and an investigation being done relatively quickly.
(292) normal is relative…or is it all my relatives are normal…
Thanks, hopefully if the governor is reading along he will feel inclined to look me up! I do enjoy cartographic design much more than some of the the technical and analytical work I do!
Thanks for the vote of support!
It is hard work, and obviously a level of responsibility when making maps for public consumption. So, I hesitate to blame ODOT. But there are some very obvious rules that they have broken on that map and I would at least be happy if they took a few simple suggestions to fix some of those mistakes.
It looks like they tried to include a little too much information on the map, and not enough of the absolutley critical information. Hopefully this incident is a catalyst for change. I would not be surprised if many tourists were led astray by that map. Oregon is difficult, with all that wilderness area, but it’s not a good enough excuse to have this confusing of a map.
The trouble is, its not really even confusing until you realize what is missing, and some design choices that are very “off”
A traveller, with no prior knowledge would have no idea all the topo and road info that is missing on that map, in the bear camp area…..is it then so hard to understand they might have made a wrong turn? I dont even see any road names in the area! One could assume by that map that the route will be clearly marked and that its the only main road, that it will be easy to follow.
Its a challenge to do it right, but something needs to be done. They could start with first, making the warning box and text and arrow a uniform color, and not red like all the other benign red lines. Thats just an immediate start, a quick fix. But its easy and cheap.
Ok…I keep hearing all this – hey we are getting off-topic.
We all need to lighten up a bit. This has been a rollercoaster ride from the beginning. We all need a break now and then and currently we are in the “grey” area before the report is out and the investigation is going on.
I hate to even say this…but it has been all the off-topic stuff that has lead to people divulging information they probably would have never done – if it stayed soley on topic.
There is value to the conversational element for all of us. Helps us understand each other and helps some get comfortable with this forum.
Let’s keep the flow casual and see where it goes…we don’t need to control everything in life.
314) I’m going to be visiting my family in Medford for the next few days, and I must say I’m sure I’ll feel a dam site more welcome there than I am here.
321- I agree Glenn – Don’t you feel like you will run out of things to talk about if you don’t get a little light hearted every now and then…keeps people sane…
321) Thank you Glenn, my post 322 was up before I saw yours.
DH I didn’t mean to offend you. Of course your welcome here. I’m just feeling very sensitive toward outsiders that may feel we are cliquey.
Glenn, yes I agree with you, I hope you understand where I was coming from. I knew I would catch flak for saying something, but I felt I needed to at the time.
I’ll say what I usually say – there is a balance. Now that it’s been mentioned, maybe we’ll give a little more thought about some of the stuff we put out there, and if we still want to after that, then we do. I don’t think Mapper is asking that we make this a sterile environment, unless I totally misunderstood.
(325) Fully understand…but people are not soley about facts, figures and pieces of information.
To successfully engage people in a comfortable and open environment we need to let the ebb and tide carry the current. Whether we like it or not this blog has become a large facilitation of all the information about this SAR effort…
And it goes far beyond the few facts that we are trying to get to the bottom of. It involves 100’s of people.
I would really like to see more the lurkers joining in…and I might add they probably have started because they can see the people here are really human and they really care – not a bunch of drones who just want to throw their opinions around.
Not trying to flatten you mapper…I think you are great and your map work is fantastic…we just need to let this take its course.
Maggie, no. you didn’t misunderstand! Your quite right. I’m not always completley focused at all. There is a balance indeed and I am glad to have gotten to know you all and go off topic on occasion.
I agree with Glenn in that the more casual conversation has led people to feel comfortable enough to make this a real give and take. If it’s slow on topic, what’s wrong with a little chatter about getting coffee, for example? It led right back into the topic after a short (fun) diversion. And as soon as there is a serious question or issue, people snap back right away.
I agree, Maggie and Mapper, that staying on topic is the goal, but I’ve been on sites where you get cut down instantly if you mention an experience you feel pertinent or whatever. Thankfully, not here. Dealing with this group can admittedly be a little like herding cats, but we’re pretty compliant, for the most part.
329 – Well, if it means we can talk about coffee… 😉 Sorry, could not resist that one.
Sorry for the soapbox speak…
I just feel we were really starting to make progress in the last couple of days…because we were letting people get comfortable…now JoCoSAR is out…for a while at least.
It would really benefit this forum if the lurkers keep swooping in for a comment or two…very helpful for everyone.
One other thing…a lot of people state we really are proud of SAR, etc…well this has become their sounding wall to vent and finally have a chance to talk to others about this. The James Kim effort was probably the biggest effort in JoCo…so let’s give these guys some room. They need a place to come and talk, shout, whatever. They benefit and in the end we benefit even more.
Now where is Pac so I can have some fun!
..”we just need to let this take its course”
agreed — but imo that means at least not discouraging people like PacNWr from posting here.
Rats. Just prepared a long message, but lost it.
Hi Ellen, I don’t know anything about the cell phone signal.
Sandy and I had a flight scheduled before the ordeal to go to Germany today for New Year’s, but we didn’t feel right going, so we cancelled and headed for Laughlin and Las Vegas. The girls left yesterday and I will admit I feel guilty now not doing my share of babysitting, it’s been a big part of our lifestyle since the beginning of the month. I have renewed respect for those parents who take loving and proper care of their children, a good bit of work, they are.
Yes, I am exceedingly proud of Kati. She handled herself and cared for her girls in exemplary fashion during their entrappment in the Saab. I’ve also been very impressed with the graceful way she has conducted herself in the aftermath.
I find all the attention this story has attracted very interesting. There are many parallels with the Floyd Collins story of 1925.
(329) I bet I can name some of those sites…LOL
Kati’s Dad: You are probably not around right now but I’m glad you’ve stopped in and we’ve gotten a glimpse of the father/grandfather, because I see this family is in good hands. I so worry about Penelope–gosh the look on her face when in her Dad’s arms. I can’t stand it when my 15 month old cries when I leave for work…I can’t imagine what it must be like to tell a girl she will never see her father again. I really hope she is ok and am glad she has such a loving grandfather.
(333) I have been reading a lot on Yelp…Kati is definitely something special – those kids will have a bright and happy future because of her.
Floyd Collins… the trapped cave explorer? I am trying to get how its alike. I will think on it but if you feel like ellaborating, Im all ears. thanks.
The historian in me will be interested to learn more about Floyd Collins — starting here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Collins.
All our best to you, Sandy, and your clan.
333/336 – I agree 110% that because of your support, Kati’s Dad, and Kati’s spirit, things will be closer to OK. Definitely it will be different because James isn’t there, but the spark and charisma and humor with which Kati shares on Yelp (sorry, that’s the only bit of Kati outside of this that I know), the girls will be blessed.
Now I’ll have to go read up on the Floyd Collins story you’ve mentioned…
Is the parallel with the media attention?
332 – Kip, I don’t think it’s a matter of discouraging anybody in particular from posting, but rather asking anyone who does post to be considerate enough not to make wild statements for the shock value. As we do have a family member (and who knows who else) present, and persons involved in the rescue, the discourse can at least be civil and reasoned, IMO. If Pac posts nonsense, he will get flamed, and then it discourages others who might want to participate but don’t want to wade through it all. I think it’s fine to have a code of ethics on a board, why not?
I have other theories on the parallels but its only theories and I am interested in your spin on it, if youre so inclined Dr. Fleming.
333 – Kati’s Dad, I meant to say to – yah, I hate that, too, when I construct some long response and then I lose it before I can post it. Anything longer than about 5 easy to remember sentences, I copy into a notepad file just in case… 🙂
And I do hope you enjoy some fun in Laughlin and Vegas – you deserve it!
Wisespread enduring attention to this story.
“It was the tragedy of Floyd Collins, perhaps, which gave the clearest indication up to that time of the unanimity with which the American people could become excited over a quite unimportant event if only it were dramatic enough.
Floyd Collins was an obscure young Kentuckian who had been exploring an underground passage five miles from Mammoth Cave, with no more heroic purpose than that of finding something which might attract lucrative tourists. Some 125 feet from daylight he was caught by a cave in which pinned his foot under a huge rock. So narrow and steep was the passage that those who tried to dig him out had to hitch along on their stomachs in cold slime and water and pass back from hand to hand the earth and rocks that they pried loose with hammers and blow-torches. Only a few people might have heard of Collins’s predicament if W. B. Miller of the Louisville Courier-Journal had not been slight of stature, daring, and an able reporter. Miller wormed his way down the slippery, tortuous passageway to interview Collins, became engrossed in the efforts to rescue the man, described them in vivid dispatches-and to his amazement found that the entire country was turning to watch the struggle. Collins’s plight contained those elements of dramatic suspense and individual conflict with fate which make a great news story, and every city editor, day after day, planted it on page one. When Miller arrived at Sand Cave he had found only three men at the entrance, warming themselves at a fire and wondering, without excitement, how soon their friend would extricate himself. A fortnight later there was a city of a hundred or more tents there and the milling crowds had to be restrained by barbed-wire barriers and state troops with drawn bayonets; and on February 17, 1925, even the New York Times gave a three- column page-one headline to the news of the denouement:
FIND FLOYD COLLINS DEAD IN CAVE TRAP ON 18TH DAY; LIFELESS AT LEAST 24 HOURS; FOOT MUST BE AMPUTATED TO GET BODY OUT
Within a month, as Charles Merz later reminded the readers of the New Republic, there was a cave-in in a North Carolina mine in which 71 men were caught and 53 actually lost. It attracted no great notice. It was “just a mine disaster.” Yet for more than two weeks the plight of a single commonplace prospector for tourists riveted the attention of the nation on Sand Cave, Kentucky. It was an exciting show to watch, and the dispensers of news were learning to turn their spotlights on one show at a time.”
On topic / off topic: my 2 cents is, for those who have been here since near the start, a break helps every now and then. It is a very heavy, sad yet at the same time inspirational story. We’ve been obsessed with the facts and specifics. It is good to get to know the human element of some of our blogging counterparts.
I am so glad Kati’s dad has joined us. I think that is something we have all wondered constantly about…how is she doing?…how are the girls?…how’s her support network?…what would a family member think of all these comments? It is good to know she has such capable hands behind her for support.
Is it frustrating to deal with the widespread enduring attention or do you see any benefit? Feel free to not answer I am just wanting to understand. Thank you for everything so far…
(332) I have no problem with Pac as long as he would switch his mantra, come up with something new, stop giving legal advice unless he is on the Oregon Bar…
My god the man never stops…same stuff every time.
332 – I have to disagree. There is no one quite like Pac (well , O & MM, but they were here but briefly), and I truly believe his major motivation is to stir up conflict. Disagreement, contrary opinions, those are fine. His motivations go far beyond that. He crosses basic lines of courtesy and respect flagrantly and frequently.
347 – no, it is not just that…there is more to it than that. Go back and re-read some of his choicer posts, there are very troubling elements that go far, far beyond a difference of opinion.
How is a lurker supposed to break in with thoughts on this tragedy, when whatever they say gets drowned out by discussions of coffee or whatever. I took a stab at posting an idea yeserdat and within a short time it was completely forgotten as everyone started going off topic. I could imagine some lurkers feeling it isn’t worth trying to break in with a comment that will get ignored or drowned out. Me, being a forum junky, don’t mind giving it a shot, but what about others?
That said, I don’t mind going a little off topic now and then, as long as someone brings int back quickly. Last night I went to bed around post 540 and when I got up today there were over 500+ posts to read, with a significant number of them way off topic.
Now I’ve said this, but I don’t want to get into a 50 post discussion on this as it is off topic. 🙂
Paul I have been here since we were in the first 200 comments. Just voicing a frustration. I think everyone knows I dont always stick to the topic. Maggie hit the nail on the head when she said its become like a chatroom isntead of a forum, and I did take DH to task for saying the same thing, and putting us all down a few thousand comments ago. Maybe I did have a grudge. Sorry.
Thanks Kati’s dad that is a very interesting story and prespective, much to think about.
well I happen to like hearing what NW’r has to say.
OK you all wanted to stay on topic seems to me things are going anit-Pac…..
Interesting story, Mr. Fleming. Reminds me of how the Natalie Holloway story took off, who knows which stories will capture the attention of people and which won’t? Had there been an internet in ’25, I don’t know if people would have been talking about the cave rescue operation vs. Floyd’s own actions or what.
My dad was a newspaperman, and one of my earliest memories is hearing him talk about having to cover the Kathy Fiscus well story when we first moved to CA, a public sensation as well. He had a sister who was killed in an accident at a school picnic, and as a result had a lifelong aversion to morbid curiousity. Made it hard for him in the news business!
What we don’t want is a carnival atmosphere surrounding the ordeal of Kati’s family, it deserves to have a positive, educational outcome.
352 – I respectfully submit I don’t…at all.
Thanks dkf747, I hear you loud and clear and thought maybe some felt that way. I also hope we can stop talking about it now and just know that some people are feeling that way! Thanks 🙂
344 – Kati’s Dad, thank you for pointing out that story (still working on the longer read that you linked as well…). I see what you mean about the parallels – there sure are a few. Way back on here somewhere, I think we’ve talked once in awhile about just what it was this time that really grabbed our attention and made us watch every moment of your daughter and son-in-law’s rescue ordeal unfolding as we cheered along and then cried along, and there were a lot of reasons that all made some sense – the sense of hope when your girls were found made us really think that the whole thing could have a happy ending, the idea that this was a young family complete with babies that seemed so happy and likable, for some it was the identification with how such a tragedy could unfold, for some it was because they knew James from TechTV and his podcasts on CNET. There are a million reasons, I suppose. But still, it is sort of interesting why it just happened to be your family’s plight and not something else going on that we barely remember.
354 – There was a story some years back that gripped the country, life in the balance…the young girl who was trapped in the old well?…ultimately rescued safely….can’t remember her name, but it was a huge national story.
350 – dkf747, you are in the right place 🙂
No it is not frustrating now, but I’m obviously concerned about the little kids receiving too much media exposure.
Kati has grieved considerably, but she is otherwise doing as well as can be expected considering her dear loss. The girls are doing fine. As can be anticipated, the 4 yr has lots of questions about her Angel Dad now. Sandy and I are heartbroken at what they have lost. But to keep it in perspective, it’s a scene played out with children every day in this country especially with the ongoing sacrifices of the wars. I do not think there will be long trauma from their days of enduring freezing and starvation. The long-trerm effect will be from the loss of their much beloved and most capable really great Dad.
Wasen’t the girls name Jessica that was trapped in the well
RRR I think so
358 – The first case was Kathy Fiscus, who fell in a well in ’49. The news media fell over themselves covering it (my dad was sent as a reporter). She was found dead, and it was a very big story. The other one, around 1988, was Jessica McClure, I think in TX, who survived and got married a few years ago.
And will always be known as baby jessica
361 – Your timely reminder of the fatherless and motherless children of the Iraq conflict is well put, there are so many of them.
Dr. Fleming it’s really great to have you checking in here. I think everybody has been touched but also somewhat surprised about how Kati’s family story gripped the entire nation even as other huge news was in our event horizons. Your points in 361 are well taken indeed.
The Floyd Collins story vs mine disaster may be a good parallel. It’s easier to access some stories/people and I think with Kati and James we all felt “wow, this could have happened to my family”. I still think this is an amazing story in many respects.
Can’t stay now as we have a family movie to watch but FYI the stats yesterday showed about 5000 people “watching”. [CORRECTION – 5000 “views” which could come from a smaller number of people]
Tara – ha! I like the idea that I’m many of the commenters here but it’s not the case. In fact I haven’t even seen any indication anybody is using two name (except when it’s obvious it’s the same person like Dr. Fleming or RogueRiverRat. (Hey RRR – are there really 78 Rogue River Rats over there on the River?)
🙂 I am sure there are many many more Rogue River Rats then 78 here
(350) Please post it again or reference your previous post…sorry it got lost in the fog…
Darn, Joe, here I thought you were sort of a cyber Phil Hendrie, doing all the “voices” here.
And don’t forget this media circus (from more recent days): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Sago_Mine_disaster
I’m just a lurker here, but I recognize what a critical mass of attention is now being focussed all of you who are active on the JoeDuck site, and hope that the momentum you have already started — to act toward solutions and not be bogged down in just gossip — can be continued.
If I may throw out my question, as i stated last night I am amazed by all of you who are “hooked” (for lack of a better word) on this search, my question is why?? I mean I know why I am because I was involved directly with it. And knowing that many of us who worked it wonder ourselves as to why we were effected as we were from working it, to see people “hooked” is strange also.
371 – All the investigations I think have kind of paused things a bit…waiting to see what comes out of those, what topics we’ve tackled will be addressed by them, which ones won’t….what the investigations deem to be the truly critical elements, etc.
Speaking of media, Ellen, that raises another good point. Which comes first: The public “jumps” on a story at first mention and the media sees the opportunity and cranks it up, or does the media really have the strongest role in determining what makes a huge story? Did Greta make Natalie Holloway into a top headline story, or did she merely report what the all-Aruba-all-the-time public wanted to hear?
371 – Ellen, I’m glad that it is apparent what we all trying to do here. Of course we are curious about things related to James and Kati’s situation, but the focus is on what can be done in part, I think, because so many of us feel that it could have been us with just the wrong set of circumstances lining up. Anything to prevent that is a good thing.
Madeleine, all of your insight into the media angle so far has been interesting and fascinating – too much going on to name them by number (did that make any sense?), but thank you.
350 – dkf747, I just took a look back, and many of us did respond to your idea about the electronic sign (which I loved because of the updating for current conditions it had). Did we miss something? If so, please do speak up!
372 – RRR, I have to bring up the media again. There was good publicity at the beginning to try and help get the story out to increase the chances of finding the family. So lots of people were following it along, and got drawn in by the ordinariness, if there’s such a word, of this nice, normal family ending up stranded in the middle of nowhere while tantalizingly close to civilization. If it could happen to them, it could happen to anyone!
People just identify with ordinary people who get into awful situations without expecting to. And then it became a cause for some of us to make something good come from it. Just my two cents. (My cents are adding up fast tonight, I’d better let others have a chance to talk…)
(371) You can count on it! Work has already begun, organization of the future efforts has begun, keep your eyes here – you will start to see the information flow in early Jan. Joe and I (and others – not sure if they want 2 b mentioned) have begun laying out a strategy to involve internet technology and volunteers in a system that could make a difference in these efforts.
If JoCo SAR will give Joe and I a 1/2 to 3/4 of a day I plan to fly to Oregon and facilitate a process session to collect the key datapoints and identify potential process failure points so that we can supplement the existing SAR process with an organized platform for volunteers, SAR and the families to participate in solving the many mysteries during a SAR effort (>48hours).
We are also at the very beginning stages of a Memorial Database to allow people to enter the location information of fatalities on our roads. If someone traveling pulls up a Google map they can get an overlay with our data and the points of concern will be dotted on their travel path. Hopefully it will cause a traveler to look more closely at the map and read the details for each data-point.
There is more…
(372) I think the outcome could have been different. IMO James did not have to die. With better systems and more eyes to assist it is our goal that we can shorten the time it takes to find someone missing. Better to try and do something then not.
(377) I thought if the sign were going to be electronic then it should be a memorial of some sort to really let people know the depth of the decision they are making. I thought I posted that too…
Stop me if I am prying too much but you say in your opinion James did not have to die, do you think with the “better systems and more eyes” would have prevented that?? I know its your opinion just asking…..
382 is to 380 sorry not good at this cross refing!
382 – Only speaking for myself, but that is the question that lingers in my mind, and I’m hopeful the two-pronged investigations will shed some light on that. Just a few days would have made the difference – was there some way to shave a few days off the process ? To me it remains an open ended question.
This story drew me in because of my interests and I could relate to the Kims, and I read the news a lot anyway (probably more susceptible to be drawn in) But also because its a map story to me. Maps are used in both prevention and maybe not enough in response. There are so many new technologies that are not utitlized (and for obvious reasons like funding of because they are new and not yet part of protocols). I was drawn in thinking, gosh I have this software on my own computer, to think I might have been able to at least assist others, who were not privy to the government info, with maps, I could have assisted private pilots, etc. just using free data I could download online. Or even, just myself to better understand the situation or to try to take an educated guess about what James might have done, and later to find out where he might have gone wrong (the ODOT map)
Anyway, it was an interest from my map and government prespective but also because I have an interest in human stories…and the internet.
Funny that Kati’s dad should bring up the Floyd Collins story vs. the mine disaster. A few years back…was it the Sago mine? I havn’t looked at the link yet, it was the one in Pennsylvania. That one also drew me in because there was talk of a faulty MAP being at the root of the problem.
This is all of interest to me!
A major reason I find the Kim tragedy so gripping is that James’ death need never have happened.
Their car was found parked in plain sight at a junction on a back road not far off a direct route from I-5 to their intended destination.
Why did it take a week to locate such an obvious target on a road well known for inadvertently detouring errant drivers?
385- Did you know we had a county guy GIS system doing our mapping for us.
(382) I do not know enough yet to answer that question. My gut tells me it could have been different…not trying to judge what was done or not done…just want to see if we can improve it. I think SAR on the ground kicked serious butt. It is my hunch that the the standard coordination process was interfered with this time – don’t know why yet and I don’t think people were allowed to do their job…now would that have made a difference…I don’t know.
Also I have been involved in this since the beginning…before all the media got involved…the word was spreading out on the net and I remembered James from pre GT4 days…and I have everything cataloged from several sources and I am going to see this through at this point.
Hopefully we can do something to help the next person that is lost.
376 – Maggie, thank you for those kind words! I was going to say to RRR that with the internet, people not only can follow a story, but actually become part of it. How many of us have sent e-mails or called or had access to public figures from this incident? Look at us now, we’re here talking to Katy’s Dad, RRR and JoCo and others involved in SARs, etc. So we are, in effect, part of the story. I don’t think it’s a case of just being hangers-on, I think we see a way to change something and we’re attempting to do it.
I have to admit I also have questions. Because I know Joesphine County has a GIS department. I wonder what the communication is like between the actual SAR and the people that make maps in-house. Because, GIS people can do line of site maps, and it does bother me to think, they dont even know this, the edge wireless people did not even have to do this themselves or explain it. All they would need is the info for the cell tower (coords) and a USGS DEM and the gis people for JoCo should have probably been involved in that.
I wonder about communication within the county but I am not trying to be critical, but this was one of my original questions. I dont have the answer myself. But it is two emergent technologies that have collided in this case (gis and cell phones)
okay I responded before you said that joco has a gis…..interesting.
RRR, my interest began with my regular CNET news-email arriving with the info the Kim family was missing. After reading where they were traveling and supposed to be traveling to, I emailed everyone I could and suggested they check Bear Camp Rd (because of memories of DeWitt Finely; I lived in the NW then). From there on I had to follow events as they unfolded.
386 – I don’t think it was quite as simple as that. There are dozens upon dozens of spur roads that take off from Bear Camp…off of each of those spur roads are more roads. Zoom in on Google, it looks like spagetti. The forest canopy is dense, and unless you are all but directly over the subject, you are not going to see them….and in the early going they were trying to cover everywhere from Roseburg to Crescent City. It was only further on that they narrowed the scope to Bear Camp based on the cell pings.
…but your question will hopefully be addressed in the near future one way or the other.
385 – Mapper (I swear, I’ll be quiet after this one), you are so right about maps. I was haunted after the Cerritos air disaster some years ago because I was convinced that an error in the chart could have contributed to the small plane flying up into the Aeromexico jet at the edge of the Los Angeles Terminal Control Area. For a couple of years, we’d been telling the company who made the charts that the landmark that marked the edge of the TCA was no longer there, but was still showing on the charts. I still wonder if the private pilot was confused, looking for a huge green tank to tell him he was headed into the TCA.
390- I can tell ya our GIS person was in constant contact with us, (housed in the same building) I don’t know about the communication with the Cell and GIS.
I know I sound critical, obviously I wasn’t there but it has been my experience working with GIS that most people are unaware of what it is and it really takes time for its full functionality to come out, even when there is a full time employee using gis in house. It was just the line of sight map issue that bothered me the most because it seemed to me that should have been easier to come up with, though it sounds like the edge guys had their own way of doing the map anyway.
392- As a business manager in the Galice area, I can tell ya you weren’t the only one emailing, I received MANY emails from friends and family asking if they stayed at our resort, or if they passed through…..It was a huge effort
Edge brought us their map they had created on their own without request before we even were at a map creating level.
385 — sometimes the thought is enough to make me want to quit my profession, so much liability! That is why we put huge disclaimers on most maps we make so that we don’t get sued!! But its really very interesting and I know most of us do our very best to make maps “true”
398 – yes that is what I read. The article just made it sound so “difficult” for everyone. Obviously these are new things (I mean had anyone heard of a ping 15 years ago or was it used to find missing people?) there is just so much new stuff and wasy to coordinate with people. I dont blame JoCo, its just that there is a lot more now than ever to deal with.
mapper, good maps are a must but I think you’ll agree one must read a good map effectively too. I’ve boated/sailed the Pacific and Atlantic coasts. I admit I’ve had a few really close calls, near disasters, because of reading the map (chart) incorrectly, making wrong assumptions.
(400) A lot of have known about pings for a long time…
We were using them back in the early to mid 90’s to track things…
Until this search I can only remember two others, and they were in the neighboring county that the Cell programs to help us out. This is a first for us and as you can see from the MT hood Search it will be of help in many more
It WAS the Sago mine I was thinking of, thanks for that link! For whatever reason I thought it was in Pennsylvania!
Is use to take an act from god to get the info on cell pings or triangulation of cell towers for a lost person
Well come on Glenn I knew YOU had heard of it!
Yes, of course. People need to read maps correctly but we are trained to design in such a way that makes it possible to understand maps better. It is an art and a science and I could show you two maps of the same thing, and one would pass but one would be 10 times better….you know?
(406) we used it…not for SAR but for commercial purposes. Shame is…this capability could be much better and the carriers could really do something about this…
Map reading is also an art if you don’t use it you loose it!
 RRR … ya think the under sheriff ever learnt to read a topo map? I don’t.
410 – Seriously ?
 … “but your question will hopefully be addressed in the near future one way or the other.” Paul, I sure hope it is. I wish there were more folks asking that very same question. It’s the crux of the issue. imo.
(382)…now I am prying… 🙂 what do you think of angle that I am working on in post (388)
413- From and insider few I have to agree, I believe that some people did the job they were assigned however in a true ICS system you are correct people didn’t get to do the job they needed to or should have
Well I would be happy to take anyone up in the road and show the crazy road system when the weather is better of course (however that is summer time and then I only get one day off a week so you better schedule early!)
(414) ok here is the biggie…do you think if it went down like it supposed to…like so many times before…do you think time could have been saved in the search?
416- No I don’t think that time could have been saved honestly…….if time was saved I believe it would be such a minute amount it wouldn’t be worthy……It was more about communication and politics and people afraid of stepping on toes
372 / RRR – See my post in the very 1st listing, #536. Those are my reasons.
417 – Interesting. It would have to be days to have made a difference for James (I still doubt he made it more than 2 nights and quite possibly only made it one).
418- But all those things you posted in 536 on page one have been in other searches and had negative outcomes and yet the media draw has NEVER been like this….
In all your research has anyone read what the autopsy said the predicted time of death was?
418 – Paul, I went back and re-read that (you should re-post it here maybe), and once again, my thoughts out of your keyboard. Lots of reasons all rolled into one. The only reason I can think of to add for myself is because it’s somewhat “local” and because I’ve taken similar roads in similar mountains and understand even in daylight how difficult and confusing it can be – could have been me.
420 – Was not speaking to the media draw so much as what got me drawn in. I can’t address what drew so much national attention…here in OR, the Crater Lake story recvd comparable coverage, as did Mt Hood recently.
IMO if only one thing I could change about the search….Would be for some how James Kim to not leave his family and to have stayed at the car……
(421) Yes I read what was reported…however it is almost impossible to pinpoint time of death in those conditions.
Do you know what the temp of the water was during that time?
Was there any sign of a fire at his perceived campsites?
421 – Can’t find the link, but the coroner later clarified that he doubted James could have made it beyond Monday, but that was his guesstimate as the body never re-entered rigor mortis and his core temp has equalized with the outside air temp, making it impossible to get much beyond a guestimate.
424 – River, if he had only known. After that many days, I’d have left, too. At that point, a decision has to be made while you still have one to make, and if it looks like help might not come, that may be the only chance. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sadly, it’s a gamble. Very sadly, Kati and girls lost James in that deal.
 … gees, ONE person, at his own volition, on his own tab, use his noggin and his knowledege of the area, one day decides to find the Kims, and HE does.
“communication and politics and people” sounds like excuse making gobblygook.
425- No sign of fires at the campsites, I couldn’t tell ya the water temp other then cold, they were primary run offs from the Mt of snow
If I go back and read my posts at MT about SAR… which I just did… I was an idiot in light of what we’ve recently learned from SAR personnel.
431 – River, MT is mailtribune.com’s forum:
431) Mail Tribune forums. I hesitate to direct you to a URL, then you will truly see the idiot. Forums are well linked from http://www.mailtribune.com.
 … Paul, yes. Admittedly only an educated guess. One press conference they pulled out a topo map of the W.C. area with pins showing the *new*!! locations of where the car was parked, where James left the road, etc. anderson looked confused and uneasy imo with his role in the presentation. Ever see somebody turn a map upside down or sideways when trying to make sense of it? Means to me they are not confortable working with maps.
Oh, I’ve deleted some of the recent ones, don’t hold em against me. Live and learn.
436- Nope I am at my own house today I haven’t spoken with them since beofre 3 today
Oh dear, I believe I heard a “whoosh” of activity toward Medford. Sorry about the diversion. I can’t seem to say anything right lately. 😕
437 – River, feel free not to answer. As part of JoCo’s “almost sequestering,” is he/she able to still be in contact with you and others? I just hope there is still some outlet, especially if JoCo is lurking and wishing to comment.
(429) If there were signs of fire then it would leave me to believe he could have lived longer than I think he did. Given the temperatures, etc…being wet I don’t think anyone could have survived long. The numbers just don’t work.
As for rigor-mortis and determining time of death it would be almost impossible to determine it. I am not a doctor and only a doctor (MD/ME) can state time of death. With those cold conditions rigor can begin within 10 minutes and btw…the faster rigor sets in…the faster it goes away – that has to do with the acid build up in the muscle tissue, etc. In river recoveries I have actually seen an expert factor in the amount of silt built up under the fingernails to aid in determining length in water…it is pretty morbid stuff but determining time of death is critical in a lot of cases.
Glenn on the first page of all this you posted a big long thing but in caps it says “Accept the fact SAR failed in it’s mission”…..Do you really think that?
439- As far as I know they are still able to talk with us all but I dunno, I have left a couple messages today with them and yet have not heard back…..Could have just gotten busy I dunno
 “425- No sign of fires at the campsites”
i’m intrigued. RRR, are you saying that evidence WAS found definitely indicating a James overnight campsite?
re:439 – I told him/her to take a walk earlier.
Joco, hang in there, we’re with ya!
443- I am saying there were no signs of fire along James treck that was tracked
443 – I did hear that there was an indentation where James likely slept that Saturday night – that was all I’d heard, though.
(441) based on what I knew at the time yes most definitely. Do I feel that now? Sure in some regards…
1) Katie and the kids were found by non SAR volunteers
2) James was first spotted by a non SAR resource
So in that regard I would say yes.
Do I think things could have been done better and could have saved James? I don’t know…
Did SAR do the best they could? I would say the feet on the ground did their very best – as always – however was their focus and coordination compromised? – maybe we need to find that out. Also would SAR have found them with better coordination before the volunteers did…who knows but worth looking into.
I have been very critical of Anderson and Sara R. from the beginning – with one-sided information and no response from either. My opinion on part of this equation is changing thanks to JoCoSAR but in whole I think we need to see the results of the investigation.
Joe Duck and a few others had startling insight on where to look for James…how did they come up with their assessment of where to look and SAR coordination did not? I think that is worth looking into.
Hope that gives a balanced response…in the beginning I was pretty angry with what I was hearing from locals and the press…I make no apologies for that…I think that collective anger (from many) caused this all to happen and ultimately I hope it will lead to something positive from this.
448- Very Good
449 – River, if you were to read back through all of the pages, you would start to see the gradual shift from many of us once we started hearing the other side. Jumping from Page One to Page Four is really and incredible leap in thoughts, actually 🙂 JoCo did much mind opening here.
 …. Maggie, that’s ALL that I heard too, until RRR’s  comment tonight. I cannot believe James could possibly have slept at all that freezing night. Wet & cold. Deathly worried as he must have been.
452- Yes I am seeing that as I sift threw the pages.
447…and, as Tara pointed out earlier, JoCoSar could be one of Joe’s alternate personalities. 🙂
wpflem (777, third comments), you wrote that “Kati will tell her story.” Will she give a real interview to a real reporter who will ask real questions? Look, this story was a national event. It’s a shame what happened, but her husband is being called a hero, when in fact both he and Kati ignored a whole series of warnings and simple common sense in their rush to reach that resort.
I realize that this is terrible knowledge, but that’s what tragedy is about. I think Kati’s got a bunch of questions to answer, and I hope she’ll do so in a candid interview.
1. Why did they ignore four warnings?
2. Why didn’t they pat attention to the weather forecast or to the snow falling outside their windows?
3. Why didn’t they have clothing adequate for a rainy night, let alone a snowy one?
4. Is it true that they had been on that road before, as Bob Hollenbeck has alleged?
5. Did she and her husband discuss their route?
6. Did they take Bear Camp Road by mistake or by design?
7. Why didn’t they fill up the gas tank in Roseburg?
8. Why did they keep on going when it should have been obvious that they were in trouble?
9. Given that your daughter had lived in Eugene, OR for quite a while, how is it that they wound up on the single most dangerous road through the Coast Range in the middle of the night, when other safe routes ae so well known?
People here will hate me for asking those questions, but I’m here to tell you that the VAST majority of people who still think about this tragedy have been asking questions like those. They boil down to: What in hell were they doing there to begin with?
It’s terrible that James Kim died, but three other people came close to dying, including two defenseless and completely dependent children. This is an issue of responsibility and negligence. Other people face it all the time.
p.s.: To all, I didn’t show up while Kati Kim’s father was here because I had gone to bed. Had I been on line, I wouldn’t have hesitated for a microsecond to post my questions. This Oprah gush-fest is outrageous and dishonest. Grow up!
452- I am just finding it very strange that some of the feelings you all voiced here were feelings of those that some felt while on the search and afterwards
454 – it is more a slog than a sift.
 …. Paul, I’m interested in knowing the truth. When I think I know what is, I’ll tell it like it is. Not beat around the bush with befuddlings.
457 – RRR, can you elaborate, please?
460 – That’s fine, I just don’t see why it is such a huge issue, male or female. It’s a tempest in a teapot for me.
462 – Hi Gayle! Yes, I’m very interested in that as well, River.
462- Well I asked Glenn about his comment of saying that SAR failed and if he really thought that……My feeling for about 2 weeks after the search was the same….That SAR….That “we” failed…..but I was feeling as from being someone on the inside working, so to hear (read) it from a bystanders point I find it interesting.
235 – Paul, I was wrong to have been hopeful this time.
Do I think now we failed……Not really
Pac I am almost starting to hope kati answers your ridiculous questions so maybe you realize how ignorant you sound.
But, I also hope she doesn’t, cause its not a requirement of her.
Who do you think you are? You really remind me of a wife-beater, and yes that is the truth, not a personal insult.
I’m just about sick of attitude.
435 – DH – Don’t keep apologizing for your earlier posts. I was pretty much outspoken myself about what had been published regarding SAR, things I couldn’t understand. And I should know better, as the media always says things that the persons involved are not allowed to respond to, so it’s usually one sided.
For me, one of the other lessons of this project is to be a more objective person when evaluating the first “facts” reported in cases such as these. The early reports were all we had to go on, and nobody wants to write posts full of weasel words like “alleged” and “it was reported”. I personally will try to be less scathing (as I was mostly elsewhere, not so much here) until I have heard something from the other side. My mistake was listening to what seemed like frank admissions from Sara that she was completely off the mark in the operation, overwhelmed, didn’t know what was going on, etc. That’s how it sounded, and that didn’t set well.
467 – River, from a personal standpoint, ouch! There are surely still some questions, but again, I do hope that if you read along with us, you’ll see where some failures that seemed certain have been called into question.
Mapper – has Pac EVER answered your questions about his/her qualifications?…about what makes him/her qualified to be the designated arbiter off what is most relevant and important?…No ??…yeah, I didn’t think so.
Thank you for laying out your qualifications so well. Nice to have a map expert in the fray given the topic at hand.
Thanks Paul. And, as I stare at this page, kind of with my head turned, like is this really happening…I remember he has not answered my questions at all.
mapper, I guess in addition to sociopath, cruel, heartless, abused child and acloholic, I can add wife beater to the list. Serial killer, anyone? 🙂
467 – Thank you, RRR. 🙂
464 – Hi, Maggie. 🙂
as an aside… is sleep deprivation starting to show on the board tonight…shortness we haven’t seen before here?
P.S.: I am utterly unqualified for anything, but in spite of that I remain the only poster who has offered ANY practical ideas that would save lives. As we all know, most of you have absolutely ZERO interest in doing that. You’d rather cry a river of tears for James Kim, Hero of the Woods than stoop to saving any lives.
471 – Mapper, remember when (maybe you don’t) I didn’t say anything when Pac piped up because I thought he’d go away with no response? Then at one point you mentioned that you say something because if any friend or relative of James or Kati were to read this, you would want them to know that someone said something and didn’t just let them trash the Kim’s that way?
It’s taken until now. You were right. I understand.
Pac, no one owes you any explanation.
479- Practical ideas are great Pac however what are you going to do with them once you have come up with them….That is what counts
476 – Just thought it a good time to remind you he’d dodged your very relevant inquiries.
469 – Maggie…I know, but I still greatly admire your doggedly hopeful nature. As to my being right, it’s just kind of sad.
479 – yes, Pac, we’ve heard the same and the same and the same. 🙄
455) That’s what I’m betting on, Paul! And… I proofread this!
477 – You forgot egocentric, narcissistic and grandiose.
Joe – I want to know why we are taken to task for name calling and Pac is allowed to engage in all manner of abuse and still post with impunity. I was deleted for such a post, yet if I went back through the last several thousands of posts I am certain I could pull enough of his abuse to curl anyone’s hair. It seems a double standard.
486 🙂 yeah that is kinda where I was going.
Gayle, I do wonder if the sleep deprivation is lending itself to some shortness tonight!
(481) u and I RogueRiverRat78 are cut from the same cloth.
Hey Pac your ideas and $1.50 will get you a nice cup of Dutch Bros coffee!
488 – No disrespect intended towards you nor your site, it is a great forum.
On Comment by PacNWer 456
It is not my place to provide information, speculate, or even ask her those same questions. Hey, this is her tale, she will choose how and when to tell the story. The only thing I can say is that I believe she will give an honest and very straight forward accounting of the ordeal.
490 – LOL, Glenn.
If I am to be of any help to anyone on any level, first I have to take care of me… going to get some Z’s. G’night all. 🙂
re483) Joe, does that pertain to everyone, or just me? I like you and your forum to put it bluntly, but should I be singled out? Am I being punished? I don’t care about me not posting on subject, but I do care about being singled out. Did I miss a public announcement by you not to post on subject? Thanks.
(494) I am sure Joe has his opinion but I think he is just recognizing your frustration with your loose lips! Loose lips sinks ships…
I don’t think it is punishment but just a clear reminder to tighten up your lips…you keep posting things that could compromise JoCoSAR…and besides that you make more work for Joe.
492 – Kati’s Dad, if you’ve stuck around even after that and so easily responded as you did, then I think you are through about the worst of what folks here have worried about you reading, and I know even more that much of Kati’s courage and strength must have come right from you (not that this is much compared to what you’ve been through, but not everyone would stay and respond at all). Anyway, I’m glad that you are here.
So Pac, you say you have no qualifications in this area at all….you must do something. I mean, you think your ideas are the only practical ones and that none of us have any interest in saving lives, at all. What is your basis or life experience for all of these things you present as so factual? Please, we need some background on Pac to better understand your stance and brilliance.
495) Well, I still feel singled out. Don’t pull any punches. I mean lots of other people are perfect. That’s how I’m feeling. You know, I feel bad enough about it already, believe me. But in the end, i am only concerned with the opinion of the subject theirself.
(492) Your example of restraint is impressive. I think you are a hero too!
(498) Don’t blow sunshine…don’t pull any punches…
In that one particular incident you were singled out – heck you even pointed it out – TWICE.
Glad you did and Joe took care of it.
I wouldn’t sweat it too much. Tomorrow is another day.
It’s best that I will be on vacation for a few days. You probably would not believe how I have tried to make up for this. But one things for sure, I need to walk away for a while . I don’t need my dam computer screen making me cry.
492 – You have character, class, courage and admirable restraint. I applaud heartily your response. Thank you again for being with us.
496 – What would I add ?..you say it so well.
497 – ditto.
490 – Glenn, I’m sorry. It has to be said. Then I’ll go back on topic. Please do not ever use Pac and Dutch Brothers in the same sentence again because if the association begins, all of my mornings will not be OK. Driving through Dutch Brothers is an almost religious experience – now almost sullied. Please stop. OK, I’m back on signs and maps!
 – Kati’s Dad… you set a badly needed good example here giving a civil & responsible response to a NW’r post. Thank you. Best wishes to you and your wonderful girls.
501 – We are all more than a little tired, and last time I checked, you had something like a half dozen trees fall on your house. I’m sorry your feeling dumped on, it’s probably a misunderstanding. We like your participation.
503 – I needed some levity…I’m in stitches.
Paul 488 is a fair question about why some comments were deleted and others have not been and I’m not sure I have a good answer, but here are some factors. Also note I’m not deleting much right now unless it addresses identities of people.
1) This is my blog but it’s not my job – I try to read everything and get in a few comments but it would be very hard to take the time to review all the comments and delete and edit according to an objective standard, even if I had one.
2) I don’t have a good objective standard. When this started I thought it would go to a few hundred comments at most. By tomorrow we’ll probably top 4000. I’ve never even seen that at *any* blog let alone mine.
3) For reasons that are confusing me (cuz I’m a pretty objective guy) I do not agree with many of the regular posters here about what is abusive stuff vs spirited and mean-spirited criticism. Former is bad, latter is acceptable.
If somebody says to me “Joe’s idea is idiotic and is based on foolish assumptions” I do not consider that abusive (just mean), but if they say “Joe is an idiot” I say it is abusive. Maybe I’m hanging out with Silicon Valley types too much, but it’s considered good form to bash ideas and bad form to bash people and I agree with that standard, especially in this blog style discussion.
4) I’ve left in criticism of Kati and James because it’s relevant to the discussion. That was a tricky decision and I almost went the other way, deleting the many mean spirited comments that appear to have little regard for the fragile emotions in play, especially in the families. I was very happy to see Dr. Fleming handle questions so gracefully and I’m confident Kati can handle her critics without suffering emotional damage.
Also, deleting all the objectionable stuff would defy the very spirit of the online community that creates blogs in the first place and I think it’s part of why so many are here to listen to the dialog and participate. Also, I really think (or maybe I just hope?) that James and Kati, both very enthusiastic online people, would understand this. James was, after all, a blogger himself.
Yikes… part II tomorrow night, OK Paul?
I do apolgize, please dont take it so seriously. I just made one comment earlier, and please understand you were not so nice in the beginning here. No one wants you to cry and go away, at all. Theres a lot going on here, your definitley not singled out 🙂
507 – Joe, thank you again. This is amazing. At least we haven’t hit 1000 on this page yet, so you get a little rest.
So how can you all tell where the hits are on the page??
510 – River, I meant that we had not gotten up to the magic 1000 posts mark on this page – which is when Joe starts setting up another whole page.
How many hits to the blog itself Joe can tell you. I think he said 5000 today??
Ahhh Ok…I get it now….let me just tuck my blonde roots back in
(510) I use a crystal ball…
507 – Part II 🙂 ?
Joe want to clarify I had no problem with you deleting what you deleted of mine. I guess where we differ is under your #3 above, I still feel Pac routinely & flagrantly steps over the line, but it is your blog so I won’t belabor the point. I wasn’t looking for mass deletions, just fairness.
Joe, I hope Kati can take it.
My reasoning for taking Pac so seriously, is because I am a woman of Kati’s age…a strong woman. But I have also suffered loss and people like that really can get to you no matter how strong you are.
I’m so happy Dr. Fleming is there for Kati, and is here a picture of restraint.
But, I know at times I have also needed a voice, to keep me grounded, that the criticism was unfair and uncalled for. Kati owes no one anything, she did not decieve anyone.
I am not asking you to delete pacs words.
Just understand my position, I hope.
Thanks for the blog, and thanks Maggie too, we seem to be on the same page about that!
I’m trying to stay away from personally insulting pac, but I do sense he is an abusive person…hey my minor was sociology okay. And I am just calling that out, though I guess it is a personal insult and for that I apolgize.
glenn – you have email
D.H. 494 – D.H. I’m really sorry to have upset you over this and of course I mean that *everybody* should work hard to preview comments and make sure they do not address the identity of other posters. Glenn understood my concerns in his comment 495.
Thanks Paul. Frankly, I’m at the point where I’ll probably delete only the comments that might compromise identities. So go ahead and repost whatever I deleted earlier and it’ll probably stay up!
518 – Joe, do you really want to run around licensing us quite that way? 😉
RRR – the software here is called “WordPress” and as the blog owner I can use a control panel to access statistics about how many people visit per day.
518 – Nah, I’m going to try to adhere to a higher standard and not stoop to the low level of my antagonist. We can all take a lesson from the amazing & admirable restraint displayed by Kati’s dad. If he can exhibit such self-control, I can do no less than try to emulate him.
Ha Maggie – sure, just look how well you have handled the emoticons!
okay so anyway, pac I am still deeply interested in what is you do. I really want to know your factual basis for why you think none of us care about lives being saved, and why your approach is so practical.
Simply changing the ODOT map, to make the warnings better, could be done in one work day by the right person…certainly not expensive. Are you saying that would be counter-productive to saving lives?
521 – Paul, I’m picking the middle again. I’ll say something, but it may only be 🙄 instead of nothing since that didn’t work. Maybe now that the questions have been put out there, the need to demand answers on those points will lessen (still hopeful me!).
522 – Yes, Joe, we’ve been very responsible with the emoticons 8)
Guess last night is getting everyone…..falling asleep at the computer
Glenn u still here??
I’m barely here…
Maggie you’re hopefulness is inspiring. If Pac cannot respect the answer from Kati’s dad then I think we should all just give up on him. My guess is he will be unable to.
Pretty sure Glenn is 2 timezones east of us, but he was here late last night.
SO just to touch on you never know who is watching or reading these…..Just and FYI I heard today that the blog has been printed out and is at folks interviews for the investigation….Just shows ya you never know who is watching
Wow, River. I do hope that it’s because we’ve brought up good questions.
I don’t really know the reason for it, I am sure that they are just monitoring what folks who are on the front line and letting others know.
Rumor is because JoCoSAR got in trouble for talking so much about it on here
Well, it is nice to get the attention, but beyond some people perhaps participating who were told not to, how could the blog help them with an official investigation into what went wrong ?…if anything did ? We are merely speculating and discussing on what was reported elsewhere. Seems almost kind of desperate and/or a bit too “big brother is always watching ” for me.
Well I don’t really care, I haven’t said anything I wouldn’t say to anyone’s face……
Watch your back RRR….don’t want you to get caught in the middle of something messy.
Honestly I am not worried like I said I have not said anything out of line that I wouldn’t have or will say to anyone else.
However I must call it a night for tonight….Last night is catching up with me very quickly
534 – I had a feeling that was going to happen. He/she was just a bit too forthcoming with very specific info that, given the quasi gag order, was sure to come back and bite him/her. Not that I think that is right or anything…if it’s all true, why should it matter ?
Thats the thing it dosen’t matter the point of the whole thing is to get the truth out…….if you speak the truth then you have nothing to hide
lol…yes I am still worried that if this got really big my friends, ex’s, family would know what I am doing (and trashing a certain ex’s fire department in the early pages). I certainly do like my anonyimity here (I know I spelled that wrong…). I dont think anyone I know would really care about me posting here, but still, its a little weird to think that I have given enough away for someone to figure out who I am…gosh, I just hope that person is not pac and he comes to find me ….hahaha. sorry but I have thought about that.
RRR…I hope none of this is used against you. It does sound a bit “big brother” to me too.
I always did get the feeling this was attracting attention though, this has been a great, no, excellent group.
539 – ditto for me too. You have a nice evening there on the beautiful Rogue…need to get my permit application in for this summer.
Goodnight all – this goose is cooked, too.
Goodnight Maggie….clear night on M.T.
542- Don’t sweat it……The whole techno world could be watching and using cyber monkeys to transport info to big brother….We speak the truth and our opinions are ours you can’t hold that against us!
543- better get it in or I will take all avalaible for myslef 🙂
MT? Do you mean Lisa? 😉
546 – You are commercial, you get a set allocation no matter what I thought. A sore subject with private boaters like me, but not really, you need to have that assurance to run your business…I am just jealous.
Nah I don’t run the lower with my work, I was talking about just for me personally!!!
But do make sure you stop in for your world famous galice burger and an ice cream cone!
547 – man it is late…yes…she’s on MT, you’re WA CO, I’m in SW…need sleep.
Good Night you all and I will catch up in the morning…….
549 – Every time I am down there, without fail…stop at the resort, then onto Argo to gear up and float my favorite river.
552-This year you will have to stop long enough to say Hi, put a face with a name 🙂 Good Night
Thanks folks and have a good night!
Dr. Fleming, this may sound strange, but I hope Kati writes a book if she decides she wants to discuss her ordeal. It might be therapeutic and would certainly be of interest to others. On the down side, some would protest that she was taking advantage of a tragedy, which is simply petty and small. It would also be a tribute to James for his daughters. I have no doubt that she would be honest and open, should she choose to do this.
Good night, all, Joe has tucked everyone in. I’m writing the last post number down to see what the posting gremlins put up overnight.
Thats funny…posting gremlins. I’m still working, crazy, trying to figure something out that is driving me nuts.
Anyway, I would read Kati’s book too. And your right, some might criticize that too. I know this could be a life changing event, who knows what it might inspire her to do. I do hope that eventually, after the pain subsides, it is an inspiration of sorts. Perhaps she will find herself interested in new causes, or maybe even a proponent of some ideas we talk about here…I bet she has some pretty good ideas herself, which I would love to hear.
If I were her, right now…I know how I would be feeling, at least pretty sure. I would never want to set foot in oregon again. (no offense to oregon) but I know I would not feel the same about adventuring and camping. I’d probably want to hide away with my family, or alone, and knowing me, well I would probably spend about 2 months in sweats on the couch too. But she probably can’t do that. She probably is stronger than myself too. But I can’t help but jump to her defense anyway. I know that girl would never purposefully put herself, her babies and her husband at risk. I’m positive of that.
Back to work!
(556) I’m awake…really…hey what did I miss?
Having heard many of the details of the case, I think it very desirable for Kati to detail their family tragedy in a book. I think there is so much inspiration in the way they cared for the children and cared for each other.
I do think it would be counter-productive for her to be agressively questioned by a reporter acting in mean-spirited style like a prosecuting attorney.
The issue of whether or not James should be considered a hero, in my opinion, should be left to individual opinion.
I was personally struck by what Kati posted in a public forum well before their vacation entrapment. This has been previous posteed here:
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.”
This Father-in-law responds, “What chivalrous behavior. In a bygone era, James surely would have been called Sir and dressed in shining armour. He would have been honored as a knight most worthy of his Lady–I’m not sure what the Korean equivalent would be.”
Kati and James made some decisions that dreadful night that ended up placing them all in serious jepardy. I personally believe both he and Kati dealt with the consequences in heroic fashion. Penelope was strong and supportive. And baby Sabine? Well, she was just a cold and hungry baby girl.
558 – Kati’s Dad, if anyone could say it in a book, it would be Kati. When I read what Kati wrote about James as a husband, it really struck me, too. Not only because of what it said about James but because of what it said about Kati just for saying it. The bit of humor included was just a bonus.
Like most of us here, I’d join you in saying that both James and Kati were indeed heroic, to.
Thank you for being here!
At some point someone (I think Pac) implied Kati owes answers because the media made this a national story. Kati owes the media and the public NOTHING beyond what she chooses to share. Unlike those in Hollywood, she did not willingly choose the intense media scrutiny that befell her. She should do what she feels is best for her and, most especially, her children. The only reason I could possibly think of for her to speak out would be to defend or explain the decisions of that night and to speak for he who can no longer step up to defend himself. The when, and with who of doing that is entirely up to her to choose, if she chooses to do so at all.
Paul, well said. She OWES no explanation.
ref note 560 12/29/06
Kati’s Dad: I think there is only one, maybe 2, people on this forum who have said she “owes” anything. Don’t take that seriously at all. Any time something is available for public consumption, you get all kinds.
Ultimately, this case got people’s attention for so many different reasons. For me, as a mother of a 15 month old living in San Francisco area, my heart went out to another mother in dire straits. I pictured Kati desperately tryingto keep her little ones alive in the cold. (I remember hoping that she was a nursing mother.) I looked on the internet for more information about the ordeal, found the jamesandkati website and others, and it just went from there–learning more about this very appealing family, the heroic efforts of the SAR, the tragedy of James not making it, the story about the story, it just all snowballed and so here I am almost into the next year still reading.
Kati’s primary concern now is providing for children. I was very impressed with how much she worked to keep their two businesses afloat when got home to San Francisco.
I definitely plan on visiting their stores.
Kati’s Dad –
I wanted to write in regard to your curiousity about why
this story has interested and captivated the public so…
I think there are numerous reasons why so many people
were drawn to the story. I know my own, and I have heard
reasons from others here. Many of us have lost loved ones
in traumatic circumstances… Some loved James from his work… Some of us have Korean ties… Some have local ties… Some have precious young children… Some are SAR volunteers… Most all of us care deeply… Many fit more than just one of those descriptions…
But I really think the overall greatest reason had to
do with the pictures of James, Kati, and the girls. You
could tell how happy they were – you could tell truly how much love was there.
There is magic in those pictures… There is their own
unique special magic – that made caring people care more,
and curious people more curious…
The amazing story which unfolded afterwards was another
But I live in Portland and I was caught up in profound caring and concern for your daughter’s family, as soon as
I saw those pictures on the news, which was the first night
it was announced that they were missing…
They looked like people I would/could care about. They
looked like people who could be friends of mine…
But mostly it was the undeniable magic of their own
unique happiness and love… It’s transcendent, in
way that makes you want to reach for the stars…
You can see it when you look at those little girls…
And I don’t think you have to worry about the girls
receiving too much media attention in the future – time
moves on, attention will lessen, new compelling stories
will capture the public’s attention.
Even if Kati were to write a book, what the media always
focuses on the most, is a current, unfolding story…
Once these investigations are complete and made known,
I believe that most of the attention will fade quickly,
but those of us who care will do our best to honor their
story, and Kati and James, in our hearts, and by trying
to do something that could really make a difference…
I saw the benefit auction thats coming up for kati and the girls. Appears that it will do well.
563 – Kati’s Dad, I’m impressed, too! That takes a combination of courage, strength, and probably a bunch of other qualities to jump back in after such an ordeal and take care of business (lame pun intended). I know that Kati said she wasn’t sure she could do it (another comment from Kati on Yelp was posted here on Page Two, comment 1146), but it sounds very much like she can, and I agree that the stores she and James started together are a gift in quite a few ways. Thank you again for being here and sharing your thoughts.
565 – Lisa, very well put.
What we weren’t able to do for James in time, we still
want to try to do…
558 – Kati’s Dad, re: what you said about Kati being cross examined, that’s what I was thinking, too. It seems that if a book preceded any interviews, it would be easier to keep the “journalists” from going afield looking for a sensational aspect of the incident. And the book would stand, in the end, as Kati’s account of what happened, period. Thanks for sharing your insights here, I know it must be puzzling, frustrating and very difficult to see so much of your family’s personal life up for discussion.
I agree that if Kati’s chooses to write a book, a lot of
people would be inspired by the details of their story,
and Kati’s words, and would want to read it. And I don’t
think that would bring too much additional media coverage,
because I think most of that is complete.
(Just say no to Barbara Walters!)
A book would be good. It would help to support the kids financially, and that’s a good thing also. Some people have surmised that since Mr Kim is involved that no funds are needed by Kati’s kids, I have come to believe that might not be totally true. So I now encourage any funds donated to Kati’s children, or any funds from book etc. for kid’s futures.
572 – And I think I’d skip Nancy Grace, too, though she can be entertaining when she has her sights set on somebody we don’t like (OJ, Scott Peterson, etc.) There must be some objective journalists out there still.
I think a book would help Kati do justice to their story…
Welcome back D.H.
Top of the morning to everyone
I posted earlier on about retracing their driving choices to get a better understanding of how and why they made the decisions they did and ulimately how they ended up where they were.
Is there anyone out here with specific local knowledge willing to try the exercise and maybe Mapper can take the information and create a map showing the path we think and the assumptions that could have been made a different turn junctions, etc…?
I think if a television interview were ever chosen to
be done, Anne Curry is the most compassionate and
non-invasive interviewer. She really seems to respect
people’s boundaries, unlike some, who just like to go
for any controversy and ratings. Again, though – that’s
not necessary – it would be a personal decision. A book,
if chosen, could say everything she wants to say.
If I may ask Mapper? I’m a map lover. I spend hours looking at maps just for fun. I’m sort of a roadgeek and in a newsgroup related to roads others sat that map companies sometimes strategically place errors on their maps to protect from copyright infringement. If another company, or person, makes a map from theirs, the hidden errors will prove if it is a copy or not. Is this true? If so, does ODOT make their own maps or do they hire a map company to do it? I’d hate to think they would do this in an area like Bear Camp road in future updates. I realize this is not part of what happened with the Kims, but just wanted to know if it is true that companies do that?
579- I agree Lisa Ann Curry would be a great person for an interview……I have met her in person and she is all you say.
Why am I hooked on this story? I don’t know, but it just grabs me, and I can’t let it go until I know what happened.
glenn – don’tcha know?? 🙂 Good morning…great conversation. Just wanted to say hello and I am still here watching. I have almost had to remove my keyboard from my computer to avoid response at times! My most difficulty comes with my desire to speak more with Dr. Fleming!! Personal closure, I suppose. Anyway, I miss you all!
578 – Glenn, I’m hoping to do just that, retrace the path(s) but not until about August. By then, it might be more difficult to understand markings as the Kim’s were seeing because I do hope that there will be better signs…
579) Anne’s from Ashland, also.
578) That would take a very objective point of view. Interesting tho. Personally I’m quite curious to hear Kati’s story on that subject.
583 – we miss you too, hope all is well. Isn’t Dr. Fleming a class act? This is a terrible hardship for Kati and the kids, but it is consoling knowing there is that caliber of support there.
583) Miss you too, but I’m not supposed to talk about you. 🙂
583 – Hi JoCo. We miss you. Glad you are reading along, and sorry it’s got to be making you nuts not to respond. Hoping things are OK for you.
578 – I suspect RRR knows those roads better than just about anyone posting, but has a business to run so…
589- I am telling ya I am going to start a tour buisness of the area….sign up early!
(580) That is an old yellow pages trick…they used to place bogus listings in to see who would steal their data…I wonder if they do that with maps too…
(583) eh? LOL
(584) Exactly my point…pretty soon it will be more changed than it is already. Maybe Bob can shed some light.
590) Well RRR, let the tourists think that it’s a round trip tour. Then at the top of Big Windy, just let them off and drive off. Just kidding.
RRR when is Bear Camp usually clear enough to go over to Coast from Galice – late May? Right now could you get all the way over with 4WD and chains?
595- It would be risky with even a 4WD and chains right now, the main road of bear camp is actually closed because of a slide (its and annual closing) However how others get lost and stuck is there is a road that goes AROUND the closure and still sticks ya on all them spur roads.
Late May would be a safe guess…It really depends on the winters we have and how fast the snow melts and what damage has happened to the road during
Is it really true that 5000 different people were looking
at this yesterday?
Or it that just different hits, sometimes same people?
Or ‘is’ that just different hits… etc.!
597 – RRR / Rand is always telling me they want to fix and/or reroute Bear Camp due to the slides but there is no money. Has there been any change on that ? The Peavine / Serpentine (wrong spelling I know) detours are awful.
600- Peavine is still as bad as it has ever been…..Bear Camp’s “slide” that had it closed FOREVER has been fixed and is nice, however they still close it in the winter for “precaution” cause it can always slide in the winter….In a nutshell….NO CHANGE
Lisa RE: blog stats. I should not have written “5000 people” above. The stats for yesterday showed 5459 “views” which probably means “pages viewed”. One person could view several pages or log on many times as many of you appear to be doing, and this would mean fewer total people. I don’t get a “visits” stat from WordPress though I may set that up later.
Is BLM 34-8-36 a dead end? Would most locals who went
down it intentionally return on it as well – so there
would usually be two sets of tire tracks?
Still – that’s a lot more than I realized were still
I have to keep that in mind!
603- There are miles and miles of 34-8-36 without a map right here in front of me I couldn’t tell ya if for sure it is a dead end…..
603 – Lisa, BLM 34-8-36 is not a dead end, and there is more than one way to loop around. Not saying any of the roads would be easy to do that, but it does loop and connect at other points from what I could see.
602 – Joe, can I assume refreshing the page doesn’t count in the stats? If it does, I’d count for about 4,999 of those 🙂
I know this is off-topic…but breaking news…Sodamned is about to be executed.
(600) Paul what about the detours? Do they increase the distance traveled? Have they been upgraded at all with signage? How obvious is it when you end up on the detour?
603 / Lisa: you really should Google map it and zoom in. I was not exaggerating when I say it looks like spagetti. The network of spurs off that road speaks loudly to how and why so many get lost up there. I am sure RRR can address this more knowingly than I, being right at the base of Bear Camp.
Is there a part of SAR that involves an outdoor/field type of detective work when looking at evidence?
609 – I should defer to RRR on your question as this last summer I was not on BC, having departed the Rogue through Powers route North. The detours did increase the distance considerably, but had seemingly been fixed before the Kims headed up BC. The signage is not very good, IMHO, although I did not get lost.
611 – Quite impressive considering the Alzheimers.
614 – Paul, it was Lou Gehrig’s (ALS), not Alzheimers. Thank goodness he could still use his hands. Amazing though, huh?
609- Yes the detours increase the milage….No it is not always obvious when you are on a detour sometimes the only difference is paved verse a dirt road, and the signage stinks……Detours in the woods are not marked like detours in the city, sometimes you are luck if you get a sign during the detour usually it is just at major intersections
613 et al // RRR – sorry to pass these queries to you, but you can’t get much closer to BC than you are, and if you ARE Galice, your shuttle drivers are up there a lot and I just assume you know the area far better than I, though I know it pretty well.
617- Its ok I accept it 🙂
RRR – Do you have any opinions on why most locals would
go down 34-8-36 and how far they would go?
618 – I will definitely pay you a visit this summer and identify myself. Even when we strike out on the lottery I pick up cancellations and head down in late summer or fall. A lot of the faces in the resort seem to have changed over the years, so am unsure if it has changed hands or if it is a generational thing. Have been coming there since 1982, when BC was still gravel (egad that was bad).
Sorry am off topic, will stop.
619- You have to remember at ONE point that road was gated and usually is closed……My opinion and guess would be that it is a road less traveled usually and when closed off if you have snowmobile or some fun winter toy it would be the place to be because you would want untouch less crowded areas. As to how far down they would go I dunno…….When you go out to play like 4 wheeling or snowmobiling how far would you go???
Paul would you share your email with me ??
(621) Bob H. has stated over and over again that the road is never gated nor locked and hasn’t been for years…Do you know how long ago it was gated or locked? Bob H. any thoughts?
623- I couldn’t tell ya
Thanks! I was just curious if you had ideas of what
the average behavior was on that road.
Bob Hollenbeck said he has never seen it gated.
Have you seen it gated?
Also, what are the causes of most of the SAR operations
on Bear Camp?
And Thank You Again! We are so lucky to have someone
who knows these things!
625- Most of our operations on Bear Camp are looking for overdue people who either used that route to get the coast, or were doing some outdoor activity such as hunting, snowmobiling, 4 wheelling, or those who go out to just play in the snow and wondered to far….I think that really covers most of our missions on there
Maggie RE: Pageviews and refreshes – yes, probably a refresh ads a page view to the stats. Normally “view” means a download of one .htm file but I’m not sure it that is how WordPress is keeping the stats. This page we are on is a single, fairly large htm file.