I just spent the last hour reading all the girls’ er I mean the more than 500 posts since I went to bed last night. (I’m in the DC area now) I’ve been on a lot of forums, and I’ve never seen a thread grow this fast! Anyways, it sure was nice to hear from wpflem. I’m glad he was here. It’s also cool to read posts for SAR members. Got a lot of respect for what you do. I’ll be back later.
Guess everyone is recovering from the posting frenzy last night. Unbelievable! Wpflem dropping in was amazing, and truly illustrates that you never know who is here.
8 – Madeleine, yes, so true. Anyone can be reading along with us. And then sometimes some of them even show up. What an incredible place this is. It really was nice having wpflem drop by – he sounds like such a strong Dad, and that made me feel good that Kati has someone like him right now.
10 – Gayle, happy reading. Plenty there to read, huh?
12 – A real page turner, yes. 🙂 Hated to sign off and go to bed but as it is this morning came way too early. (yawn ‘n stretch) Had only one home care client though so that wasn’t so bad. It seems like time is really dragging though, waiting for the report to come out.
re14: I would certainly personally say “excruciating” waiting for the report to come out! I feel like such a fool sometimes! Oh well, enough about me. 😳
14 – Yes, passing time until the report comes out is hard. I can see us lined up in front of our screens on the 5th, drumming our fingers, awaiting the report to devour it. Bet it will be a big relief for JoCo, in many ways. And I hope it will answer any lingering questions the families might have.
Yikes, I hadn’t even thought about the report due on a Friday! Friday is a bad day for the news media to cover things, so this will be interesting. We can assume they are lurking here, I suppose.
17 – Gayle, bite your tongue 🙂 I’m with you, though, I hope not, but it makes you wonder. Aren’t BOTH reports due then? Perhaps the one Kulongoski is requesting will take more time to release, but I’d hope the OSSA might be in our hands a little faster maybe.
23 – I thought that with the Kulongoski one they didn’t really say what would be released, and that the OSSA one that Josephine County requested that they would release any problems. Neither really sounded like we would necessarily hear all of it for certain, if I remember correctly – but I’m sleep deprived, too, so that’s just from what could be bad memory.
Oh boy, does that Kona coffee I got for Christmas taste good this morning! We just finally got our Dutch Brothers too here in Newport about a month ago. Finally! I love the Mochas!
25 – DH, yes, Dutch Brothers is awesome. Not just their coffee, but the people. I could go on. I was running too late to get one this morning. I’d better stop or I’ll go on a huge tangent.
If I remember correctly, as a kid I used to tube over the Galice rapids down from Indian Mary, no life jacket of course. If my poor mother would have known, she would have freaked out. I used to swim across the river at Indian Mary, too. People jumped in the river on the other side from that spot I think. Those were the days!
I am not sure what happened I tried to use and arrow and it just didn’t send it. People still do all that still river stuff, it is job security for some now 🙂
Ok, totally off topic, but since everyone else here is currently off topic, I guess it’s ok.
As a coffee fanatic, I just couldn’t resist all the talk about this wonderful Dutch Bro. coffee, so I just ordered some and if it doesn’t live up to all of the oh’s & ah’s here, I will hold each and everyone who has praised it responsible. ; )
Just kidding, of course. But I really did order some.
I found this quote from a CNN interview transcript, I just wanted to share:
“HAHN CHOI, FRIEND AND FORMER COLLEAGUE OF JAMES KIM: ‘As a father, I know he loved his kids so much. And his wife. He loved them so much. I know he would do anything for them.’
SIMON: Hahn Choi used to work for James at another high-tech venture, but says it felt more like a friendship.
CHOI: ‘I never saw him get mad. He was one of those people you could talk to all the time, you know? You know, it’s strange, because, you know, he was just a really good, good human being. It just doesn’t — you don’t find that very often.'”
Just in case anyone didnt’ see this last night in the shuffle, this is Kati’s review of her husband on Yelp. I don’t think it could be said better. How lucky for her to have had him and for him to have had her, too:
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.
5 stars.
We are apparently Dutch Bros. deprived in the Evil State of CA. Or at least I’ve never heard of it. But you all have spurred me to go find a cold Red Bull in the fridge to assist in recovering from last night!
Okay, I had to go look it up, and we DO have Dutch Bros., in Central and Northern CA. Not where I live, it would be a 3 hour drive. And it would have to be VERY, VERY, VERY good for that to happen!
“JOHN RASHER, HELICOPTER PILOT: ‘First, I saw movement down in the trees, and something rapidly moving back and forth. As I got closer, I could see it was someone waving an umbrella.
When I got up to her, there was an SOS stormed in the snow, in big letters, probably five feet high. And then next to that it said “out of gas,” that was stomped in the snow.
I didn’t feel comfortable landing there. It was very tight where she was. I couldn’t have landed right where the car was.’
ZAHN: Another helicopter is called in. It maneuvers into the narrow pass. What they find is a miracle.
DANIEL TOWNSEND, VOLUNTEER PILOT: ‘Her first response when I walked up to her is, she just had a big smile on her face, she was jumping up and down, you know, just saying, thank you for finding us, for getting us.'”
54- What a moment that rescue was, incredible! We should probably remind anyone not entirely familiar with the case that they didn’t get stuck from running out of gas but ran out due to keeping warm from the heater for as long as they could stretch out their fuel.
65 – Yes, definitely. The thing that struck me is that Kati sounds like she has a great sense of humor (many of her Yelp reviews are quite funny) and truly appreciated James – even publicly like in that review, and that’s not super common – and I really think that her girls can’t help but grow up well with someone like that as an influence that can show them humor and appreciation just be being herself.
re63: Technically they did not get stuck by “running out of gas”. But running low on gas was mentioned early in several accounts as influencing their decisions. They may have planned on getting more gas in Merlin area but couldn’t find a station open. What do you say locals? Are stations open at 10:30pm in the area where they got off the freeway? Wow, I almost feel guilty talking about this. Almost.
THere are two gas stations in Merlin one RIGHT off the freeway that is open until 11 on weekends 10 on weeknights, the second is in the town of merlin and it is about 3 miles off the freeway it closes around 9
Good morning everyone!
I can’t keep up…go to bed at way too late an hour, wake up and find a couple hundred posts since I signed off…so it is futile to complain about sleep depravation since all of you by default must be way more deprived than I.
JoCo, good morning! Your OR locals have been taunting the rest of us about the good coffee up there, no fair! By the way, I found a number of 4WD clubs listed in OR, a few from the southern area. There’s got to be somebody who knows whether these particular groups would be a good fit to help with SAR ops (I’m sure they already are helping out in many locations).
What you wouldn’t want would be what we used to refer to as the “hot dog” groups who had no regard for the land, safety or anything else, just drinkin’ and drivin’. The legitimate clubs tended to be family oriented and not like that at all, but again, I haven’t been involved in the activity for a long time. Some of your other SAR groups likely have experience working with these clubs as volunteers, I can’t think they wouldn’t have hooked up by now. I’ll keep nosing around…
D.H. – visited your site, see that you’re a Duck alum (assume from the music school). Very cool.
RogueRiverRat78 – you ARE Galice, interesting. So, as a local, and one who would be definitely impacted by policies with Bear Camp road, what is your opinion of all the various suggestions posted here on what to do with BC going forward ??
So that one right off the freeway PROBABLY was still open. Hmmm… It was about 220 mi. from Halsey. So they only has about 80 miles to spare, if that. They probably burned that up quick on that spur road, heating with it, etc. But… they probably would have had enough gas to turn around and go back to Galice/Merlin I would think.
72 – Yes, JoCo, tara did the math on it back in comment 355 of page 3:
“my findings are that the saab fuel tank at capacity is 301 miles. From hasley to galice without any side jaunts its 169.89 miles. If they didnt stop anywhere else they had a little less than half a tank of gas.”
I don’t think it would be likely that they stopped in Merlin for gas after that unless they used a different card or something – not likely.
Here are some more CNN transcript quotes I thought were
worth posting:
“PHIL FLEMING, KATI KIM’S FATHER: ‘At this point — I have certainly a big bag of emotions, it’s been an extremely difficult week. I am elated that the children have been found and that we have our babies back. But I have an intense worry about James at this point.’
ZAHN: ‘Kati, seen in this photo taken at the rescue site, pleads for the search to continue. She hasn’t seen James since he set out on foot two days before.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Apparently. Must have been the hardest decision that man ever faced in his life, to leave his wife and his two babies in an area where he knew was nothing.’
HELLER: ‘That is just very, very nasty terrain down in there. Mr. Kim was going from one side to the other. He was going through the water, trying to work his way downstream.
There were many times that our searchers were — while they were trying to follow him, they could not figure out how he had got from one point to another.’
GRIFFIN: ‘But James was leaving clues to help searchers track him.’
HELLER: ‘Looks like it’s part of a skirt.’
GRIFFIN: ‘As we retrace James Kim’s journey, Sergeant Heller continues to find more evidence Kim was leaving a trail.’
HELLER: ‘It is a wooden teething ring. Says “haba.” H-a-b-a.
It appeared that he was leaving these clothing articles to, you know, to mark his trail.’
GRIFFIN: ‘At this point in the search, Heller and other rescuers still had hope.’
HELLER: ‘My gut feeling was that he’s alive, he is cognizant. He’s doing his best to make sure that we can find him.’
GRIFFIN: ‘Did you have hope?’
HELLER: ‘Yes. At that point, definitely definitely had hope. ‘
72- JoCo, I know we talked about the gas in or near Albany, but is that based on recollection or strictly gas receipts? I realize most people may tend to use their cards for all their gas on a trip to track it, but we’ve been known to drop in some extra gas using cash on the spur of the moment, say at a pit stop (“let’s top it off while we’re here”).
I can’t say that really in the winter it would impact me not as a local but our resort we don’t do alot of shuttles in the winter so no real effect on us, I believe signage would and could be improved HOWEVER people will so go up to play and those who are curious from the coverage of all of this
84 – I hate to say it, but yes, count me curious this summer. I intend to take that drive. I’ll rent something more suitable than the useless Mustang, and I’ll go when it’s very summer (August or so – anything before July 4th is very iffy…), and I’ll bring extra everything just in case, but yah, I’ll be one of many that will probably go take a peek.
86- personally for me as a “local” and a SAR member and business person of galioce that is what is the scarest for me from all the media coverage of the area are going to be the looky-loo (no ofense Maggie) these seems to also be the people who get into trouble
84 – You’ve run a lot of shuttles for us over the years, and we always stop on my way to our put-in at Argo for a refresher on the back deck. You live in paradise.
I assume the shuttle route through Powers closes about the same time and for the same reasons as Bear Camp ? So in winter you have to go all the way to Gold B and up and around?
87 – River, yes, I can understand that. My plan was to just go see the Redwoods, but I won’t be able to just drive past. I promise that I’ll be one of the very, very careful ones with the right vehicle/right time of year/right time of day/provisions, etc. I do think that you are right, though – Oregon seems to be the looky-loo state (at least that’s how it usually is on my commute whenever someone pulls over even for a flat tire…).
93- Oh in the summer time you can take Bear Camp we go 2 sometimes 3 times a day over that road with our 15 pas vans and a carvan of customer shuttle cars. However I still believe sticking to the MAIN higways 101 and the other that cuts to I5 is the way to go and is prettier!
Last set of CNN Transcript quotes (I just found there was
some interesting information that I hadn’t heard before,
and since we’re waiting for the 5th and the resport and
all…) But of course, it’s optional to read if you want to:
“ZAHN: ‘After nine days stranded in the snowy mountains of southern Oregon, Kati Kim and her two children are safe.
For Kati’s father, Phil Fleming, the news is bittersweet.’
FLEMING: ‘It was just unbelievable joy to have my three girls back. That joy, however, is tempered over our concern about James.’
ANDERSON:’ We are going to continue to look until we find James. We are operating on the assumption that he’s still alive. And we’re going to try to find him.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘They are going to have to follow the creek, or hop the creek and go over here, where they can walk. And I don’t know if they can, because no one’s ever been there.’
ZAHN: ‘Rescuers traced his footprints. ‘
ANDERSON: ‘We brought in a specialist for — a man tracker that we can put in, see if we can find his footprints, and continue to work that out.
We’re continuing to work it today. If we don’t find him today, we’ll continue to search tonight, and we’ll do it again tomorrow.’
ZAHN: ‘But it’s James himself who gives the search teams hope. Rescuers find the clues he’s left behind.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘A blue girl’s skirt and pieces of an Oregon state map that were sort of cut up. And these, according to the information I have, were sort of placed, again, with our belief that little signs are being left by James for anyone that may be trying to find him.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘You have hope. You put somebody in there and you don’t give up on it. You go to the bitter end with it. And you know, when they announced it, it was pretty quiet in my aircraft.’
ZAHN: ‘James Kim, father and husband, had hiked more than 16 miles through brutal terrain before freezing to death. A state trooper called his journey super human.’
ZAHN (on camera): ‘James Kim’s tragic story is fascinating because there are some ways it might have ended differently. Just like it is for all of us, life is filled with coincidences, choices made that could have gone a different way, leaving all of us wondering what if?’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Edge Wireless put a gentleman over here. It was through his computer model that we were able to locate a cellular tower hit that concentrated the search in the Bear Camp area.’
ZAHN: ‘But in the end, James Kim’s footprints saved his family.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Apparently the private helicopter pilot that actually saw them said he tracked Mr. Kim’s footprints in the snow to this location. And he said he had picked the footprints up back on this road and tracked the prints back out here to the vehicle.’
ZAHN: ‘James Kim’s story: five days in the frozen wilderness, a 16 mile hike in sneakers, came so close to a happy ending.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘So I want to make sure that’s clearly understood. They did nothing wrong. James Kim did nothing wrong. He was trying to save his family.’
Lisa, thanks for posting those excerpts, very interesting. The last one is so poignant. We need to quote the last two or three sentences whenever the Pac wannabes show up here to begin railing about James making bad decisions.
121 – Just so anyone who wants to know is in the loop – yesterday I took a picture of my Dutch Brothers on my desk at work (yah, I work) because I got a new camera that I was playing with, and I sent it to JoCo in case she needs one while working on the investigation paperwork and can’t get away to get one. A virtual pick me up.
123- Remember it is my opinion……They did do nothing wrong for the situation they were in…THey stayed with the car….rationed food…burnt tires for heat…….It is text book “hug a tree” program…….I question what the thoughts were as they were driving up the road, back road, not alot of signs, dark, no traffic, when I travel I can’t say I would have continued down a road with conditions as that
I think the point is they made innocent mistakes.
It’s a kind of relative right/wrong where when
someone gets into trouble because they don’t
really know the dangers at the time – and then
they try so very hard to do all they can to
make it better to the point where it takes their
life, that it’s more important to acknowledge
what they did right – trying – than what they
did wrong, when they didn’t know better at the
time.
I’m sure that was said shortly after the full
outcome was known, during an especially emotional,
grieving time. When you focus on respect.
124 – Paul, I would like to hope that Pac would have some sensitivity – I’ve said before, I tend to be optimistic and sometimes naive, but I really would hope. If Kati’s dad has read a bit of this, I think he’d know anyway how most of us feel. There are plenty of Pac’s out in other places – we’ve been lucky, really, to have so few.
As I told JoCoSAR last night, I wish that there was a way to “Download” peoples minds after they have passed, To know the thought process that someone has in a situation as the Kims and to make choices as they did befuddles me.
Well Folks as much as I would love to stay and chat I must be on my way the shower calls me…..I have a 11:30 meeting I must prepare my self for….I shall check back later gaters!!
128 – Maggie, I would hope too but for the fact that he has never shown anything but overt INsensitivity and has, in fact, gone out of his way to incite turmoil and controversy and offend everyone ( i.e. the ridiculous joint commentary). I gave up hope with that one some time ago.
127 – Well put, Lisa. At some point they realized what the situation had become (understandable mistakes getting into it), but it was too late to undo it, and they made great decisions from there. Kati and the girls lived through it. James almost did.
(129) you would be amazed at some of the researching going on there…they hope some day to have a virtual replay of the memories. It would be a huge victory in crime solving. Plus you could pass life experiences from generation to generation.
re: #49
Will let you know, D.H. Did I read where you are currently in D.C.? On my side of the country…Well, including shipping was only $18, so if everyone who oh’d & ah’d chips in, it shouldn’t be too much out of pocket to reimburse.
Joking aside, can’t check in like I was able to do for a few days last week and when I do get a chance to check in, is for limited time, so I can’t keep up with everything.
Especially like last night when Katie’s dad checked in, posting was so fast and so much… whew … but I’m trying to at least get the gist of things. Today seems just as fast.
See if anyone can help – if I print out the posts, it is much too small to read for old eyes, if I copy & paste into a word processing program, it looses the numbering.
Is there a way to print out so the font size is readable and not loose numbering of post?
127 – I feel that the measure of people isn’t that they make mistakes and get into messes from time to time, we all do. It’s how they handle an emergent situation, and these people did a valiant job of trying to utilize their resources. And I loved that James (and Kati, too, I’m sure) kept things under those horrific circumstances as normal as possible for the kids, reading stories, pretending they were camping, etc.
Thinking about the Kims made me remember once getting lost driving back from Oregon late at night when my kids were young. We were going through the Redwoods area, and what a place that is at night! I think we were supposed to stop, but husband had an abcessed tooth and we needed to keep going for home (truly get-there-itis).
Dumb and dumber to drive through there unfamiliar with the roads in the pitch black night. Fortunately, we ended up having gone in a big circle and got back to the place we turned off, finally. But for luck, we could have just as easily gotten on a side road and been no different than the Kims.
Christopher Walken stared in a moved about that – it was
really wild – made a big impression on me. They could
record people’s consciousness. And then you could put
on head phones, and strap in, and experience it, including
the feelings. It was called “Brainstorm.” It was a kind
of suspense/thriller.
He was good in it. It’s one of those movies that really
made an impression. I’ve seen a lot that I don’t remember…
138 – Hi, Joe, Good Morning from one of the zombies.
Re: Your link: With my luck, I’d have a smarmy, smart-mouthed computer that had downloaded the brain cells of someone like.., well, nevermind, it would get ugly.
145 – Have you noticed that later at night is when the good breakthroughs seem to happen? JoCo casually drops a tantalizing tidbit, or Kati’s dad appears and completely energizes the whole place! The very basis for addiction, itermittent “treats” of information.
I’ve driven on mountain roads Colorado at night –
narrow winding roads up high with immense
drop-offs – that have that kind of grating that makes
your vehicle bounce all over the place… And in a
lightweight small pick-up truck with nothing in the
back it’s hard to control, and you think you’re going
to bounce right off the edge…
What started out as a fun mountain ‘night time drive’, becomes much more…
I’ve driven similar logging roads in Oregon, up above the Umpqua, but now I know better to do it in the daytime, and
try to not look over the edge!
And I better stop soon because my typos are starting to
get the best of me… for some reason it is easier to
spot them in the font on the blog than in this little
comment box.
Lisa, drop offs are the one thing I cannot abide, would not want to drive those type of roads at night. I used to go to work on a perfectly nice two lane mountain road with dropoffs, and had to do it at night much of the time, which I hated. Even in broad daylight, it drove me nuts when I was on the cliff side. I always figured one of those hunched over guys on a loud motorcycle would take a curve wide coming down and knock me off the edge like a marble off a table.
You want drop-offs ? Try the gravel road in deep N.E. Ore. that goes to a place called Hat Point Overlook (looks into the Snake River Hells Canyon). Yikes.
151 – Joe, we will try to behave. I can’t say what you might come back to, though, if you go away for awhile.
146 – Madeleine yes this has become very addictive for that reason, I think. I’m afraid to leave the computer.
152 – Paul, not spreading rumors, so tara please correct if I’m wrong, but I think last night it turned out that tara is involved with SAR to some degree.
I sure hope Joe is not referencing my post 131. In fairness to all of us, it is more that someone comes along and purposely incites things with highly inflammatory commentary. As you observed yesterday Glenn, things are appropriately respectful up until that/it happens….and that’s is not to say we all agree all the time either. Accusations to the contrary, I don’t think this is “groupthink”.
I can’t talk here anymore..I have been “Sequestered” almost. I will continue to read, but not post. Sorry, thank you all! You know it will kill me! I will be back on the 5th for sure!
159 – JoCo, I was afraid of that! Now it will really be tough waiting ’til the 5th. Thanks for everything you have contributed to this discussion, it was invaluable.
134- Is everyone here perfectly OK with having their entire life downloaded???!!! After downloading some of that stuff, most likely shocking some of it… your ideas about your past relatives might change quite a bit… for anyone! No thanks! Stay outa my brain! You’d need some really good filters. 😯
Now, not only will I be waiting impatiently for Jan 5, I’ll be wondering why you were sequestered, which I will probably never know. 😥 oh well, it’s not all about me, that’s for sure.
One time after a night-time ice storm in the mountains
of Virgina, I was driving down the main ‘4 lanes in each
direction highway’, etc. I had pulled over the night
before, when I noticed the roads became eerily empty
around 7pm at night (early January). I turned on the
radio, and heard the ice storm warning. But the next day,
we were told the highway was salted and safe to drive
normally.
I was still being cautious – driving 55, while others
were whizzing by me, even though the grassy median and
sides of the road were littered with abandoned twisted
tractor-trailers and cars in unbelievable positions like
strewn toys which had to be abandoned the night before (many people slept in schools!)
Anyway, going over a long bridge, my light-weight small
pick-up truck immediately started fish-tailing completely
out of control – so much that my mouth opened wider than
it ever had and I couldn’t help but gasp in one continuous inhalation until I was at end of the bridge and I got control of my truck again.
Luckily I was alone on the bridge at time, because my
truck swerved completely into both of the other lanes
on either side of me at different times.
At the end, there was one thought in my mind – ‘terror’.
I just thought now I know the true meaning of ‘terror’.
I will never drive in those conditions again, even if
advised it is safe. Although it is true my truck was
light, and I didn’t have snow tires, etc. It’s still
not worth it to me.
My father and I also did a 360 on black ice once, where we
totally went into the on-coming lane in the beginning.
166 – Lisa, thank you, so true. I can tell you, too, that the same exact thing can happen even in just rain. I know because I spun my Subaru (even a Subaru) in rain a few years back headed up towards Seattle on I-5. Came quietly to a stop on the side of the road in front of those that managed somehow to avoid me. That was the day I stoppped speeding for good. Especially in the rain – rain of all things! The next was my other Mustang that was totalled in the rain, going the speed limit, around a curve on one of Portland’s bridges – bouncing off the sides and just waiting for someone to come speeding up and hit it. We lived. Now I drive even slower – sure it irritates people, they honk, gesture, go around, etc., but the unexpected can happen, and I don’t need another jaw-dropper like you described. Let’s all be safe out there 🙂
re:166 – This is a funny story, not too serious. I probably won’t confess the serious road/ice experiences. Logging roads at Johns’s Peak, Medford area, Jacksonville hills, used to ride dirt offroad motorcycles (dirt bikes) all over those roads (never really got lost, they eventually got you back to starting spot). One particulary boring winter in the valley, myself and my X (blechh!) were going stir crazy and took the bikes up to John’s Peak in the snow. So we were riding up the roads ok in the mountains (not good roads you know probably like Bear Camp spur roads)… all of a sudden my back tire spun out and I ran square into a tree. I was OK what with all my football player looking protective gear and helmet on. Only thing is… ALL the snow in the tree fell squarely on top of me.
Actually, I’d ride in that gear in desert motorcycle races over by Bend, and occasionally I would fall, of course. It got so I kind of liked falling, because I could roll all the way down a rocky hill without even getting hurt. I know, I’m warped.
166 – The short version of my icy experience: on my way to 3rd shift work on a nice 2 lane that was iced over, the wind spun my car around until it stopped facing home. I took it as a sign and drove home and called in. No harm, no foul, just less a day’s pay.
159 – Sorry to hear that JoCo won’t be posting. I wonder if someone above her/him has been reading her posts…
What I meant was Gayle, yes, I’m definitely a Tomboy.
I hope that superiors haven’t been reading, but as we well know now, just about anybody could be reading. It’s almost tempting to move to a private message board, but that would exclude so many people, and someone would feel left out, and part of the point of this board is for everyone to learn positive things and get the most possible contributions to solutions.
Yes, Maggie, I agree. I tend to drive more slowly too
now – especially in wet conditions. That experience turned
me into a slow lane (not under the speed limit) but better ‘safe than sorry’ driver.
I also had a close call once on interstate 95 where it was
5 or 6 lanes across, and I was in the far left ‘fast lane,’
with a cement barrier to my left. I decided to change to
the next lane over, and as I was doing so, all of a sudden
I could feel that there was no power under my gas pedal. There was no ability to accelerate anymore… My whole leg
went numb with panic clear up to the top of my thigh…
Luckily, in those moments there was no one immediately
in the lanes to my right, so I was able to ‘coast’ over
to the right shoulder.
I got it towed, and they said my fuel valve had just shut
off. Just closed. “No fuel.” I had fuel in my tank, but it
couldn’t get through.
For you who live with the snow/ice conditions, is it true that bridges ice up easier than the road? Lisa’s awful experience made me think of this. That’s what I was told when I worked in the mountains, “especially watch out for the bridges”.
Sometimes I think about how it was raising teenagers to make it through to age 20, and I’m SO glad we didn’t have awful road conditions to add into the mix. But I guess we make up for it with nuts who shoot people on freeways, etc. and innocent people stumbling into gang crossfire.
179 – A different car can be a very good thing. I have another Mustang now (that I hate when it’s not summer), and every day that it rains (mostly daily this time of year), I dread the commute if it goes fast enough. I know, I’m the only person who *wants* to be stuck in slow traffic when it’s like that because then I know I’ll make it home without hydroplaning. The minute I can afford a different car, I’m buying it. Hopefully before next winter.
re180: Ooooh…. that shooting people on the freeway when angry sounds like San Antonio… I lived there for 10 years in USAF. That happened to a fellow USAF band member there. Bullet went thru his door and shot his foot! Then on a side road near my house, I did something to irritate a guy in a truck, he opened his door and tried to kick my car! I’m sooo happy to have retired and living in quiet little South Beach, Oregon!
Anyway I have more questions about the ground search
and other aspects of the Kim case, but I guess it’s
true we’ll have to wait!
One aspect that I think is difficult is when you
have a family member who is lost in a not extreme
situation (like Mt. Hood) and you want to or are
able to look for them – but you’re not allowed
a lot (or most?) of the time.
tara – do you know about this?
If it was a situation where I felt like I was ‘up’
or fit to help in the search that would be extremely
frustrating for me.
I hadn’t pegged San Antonio for road rage. One of our staff was shot at one day after work on the 14 Freeway, and he was shaken up for months. It was strictly random, don’t think they ever caught the guy. Sometimes the gangs shoot at each other, and sometimes they “jump in” new members by making them go shoot at people! Other times, it’s just a sicko or “ordinary” road rage. Seems to come in clumps of incidents that may not be related, I think they feed off of each other.
I’m sure Pac would say the people should have known they might be shot at, worn a flak vest, bullet proofed their cars, etc. Uh-oh, Joe put us on quiet this a.m. with respect to saying things about others, so I’d better knock it off.
185) I would think that some family members just search on their own anyway… not that I’m encouraging that! Could get in a lot of trouble/danger and get in the way of official search.
Wow, I think I can actually hear the wheels turning in JoCo’s head at this moment… the steam coming out of his/her ears… banging on the desk or the computer screen in frustration. Perhaps he/she should go take a walk. 😛
I wanted to say this last night but I was interested in hearing more from Dr. Fleming so Ill say it now.
I think it was mentioned to some degree, but I really think its important to be careful of what information is given in here. Personal information, assumptions of identity and thoughts spoken out loud should be weighed and measured carefully before posting.
You never know who is just silently reading.
Ever wonder if all these names posted are names and personallities JoeDuck made up and you are the only one whose not a part of Joes imagination? Hmmmmm….
p.s. the reason why I mentioned the ice storm incident
was not only because my truck was fish-tailing, but
it was fish-tailing so wildly and out of control – like all over the other lanes – back, and forth, fast and swerving…
In a way I didn’t even know was possible…
But now you do, so you don’t have to learn the way I did!
192 – I would say…YA SURE, YOU BETCHA… and tell a good Lena and Olie joke but I am really not from around here. My first 30 yrs were in upstate NY and the next 20 in WA state and OR. I think my accent is generic. 🙂
An odd expression heard here in MN, I think, is ‘out east’. I always say ‘back east’ and ‘out west’. Guess it’s all where you’re from.
191 – Tara, you are right. Shame that we have to weigh and measure, but while some are lurking innocently and reading to learn, others may be skulking about gathering info to relay to who knows who for nefariuos purposes.
And if certain posters reside in Joe’s imagination, oh, man…
Im sure the answer you are looking for wont satisfy because it sure wouldnt satisfy me, but its true…. people can quickly become in need of rescue themselves while attempting to help.
188 – Re: family members searching on their own. That’s what I was trying to say last night when I probably offended Kati’s dad by saying that I couldn’t have stayed home (he did exactly the right thing). I would have to be doing something at or nearby the scene. I’d be driving the last known route, checking places they might have stopped, based upon my knowledge of my kids, something. I don’t wait well (or follow directions well when told “no”, in a situation like this for that matter).
I wouldn’t go off into the woods or wilds looking for somebody, that’s not my area of expertise, not a hiker or tracker. They’d be looking for me, as well.
191 – Ever wonder if all these names posted are names and personallities JoeDuck made up and you are the only one whose not a part of Joes imagination? Hmmmmm….
Joe’d have to have multiple personality disorder…hmmmm
(203) not all of Joe’s theorized personalities would be allowed in there – so based on your – ah let’s say interesting thoughts – please refer to a unisex facility out of respect for joe…and his merry band of personalities.
Oh yeah – 209 – I couldn’t pull off a nap with the chain saws outside, the guys walking on my roof, the chunks of tree trunk falling on the roof making me think that someone just fell down hard in the kitchen!
191 – Tara, yes, I agree that we do need to be careful. I think Joe mentioned something like 2000 hits a day possibly reading along with all of us. Yikes, figments of someone’s imagination. I’m too sleep deprived to ponder that…
One problem I think that would be important to try
to find solutions for, as has been discussed, is finding a
way to determine when locals have a hunch or a lead,
how legitimate it could be.
Because sometimes locals know the area better than
anyone, and if John James of Black Bar Lodge noticed
tire tracks that stood out to him as suspicious
somehow, even though ‘there are tire tracks all over
the place’…
And I know glenn and Joe Duck have talked about the
capacity of the internet to help with this aspect of SAR
information gathering.
After all, it was the helicopter pilot’s “hunch” that led to the fastest success, and could have led to even faster
success if he had set out on Saturday. He could even have
still found James on the road!
How awesome that would have been! Even if he had just
told someone about his hunch about them taking that wrong
turn at the fork, on 34-8-36, maybe one of Spencer Kim’s
hired helicopters could have searched there!
(He thought about setting out right away on Saturday, but
his family had Christmas tree cutting plans.)
Tara is with us, but JoCoSar is not, and we still don’t know about RRR yet – I think work under the presumption that someone from one or more investigations is reading so comment accordingly if you in an “at risk” position.
214 – I wondered about those too.
217 – I think you bring up something that we really can’t answer without some feedback from someone actually involved. For instance, I could easily forsee a situation in ANY high profile SAR where the professionals involved are overwelmingly inundated with well informed, well intentioned, tips. How do you discern the good from the bad, the meaningless from the meaningful ?
For example, before JoCoSar weighed in, people took Sara R to task for following up on a tip from her husband’s employee, but why would that tip be any more or less credible than a tip from the owner of Black Bar??…esp when that person was all but certain they saw the Kim’s on the pass??
I’m not a SAR expert, so I’m just guessing, but maybe in high profile cases tips get ignored due to the sheer volume in deference to following defined policies and procedures that have stood the test of time.
It would be interesting to hear from someone in the know on this as it ties into so many elements of the Kim search.
217/221 – Lisa and Paul, I wonder about all of the local tips that pour in, too. It sounds like that may be part of what Glenn and Joe are working on as a way to somehow “filter” tips. Indeed, there must be plenty of them, especially once any real level of press becomes involved. I would be that there are typically some that are pretty wacky, some that are fairly likely/pertinent, and a few that could fall into both categories. In general, I’ve always wondered what kind of system is in place and what could be done to get the best/most likely to the top of the heap. I agree, Paul, that after the fact it’s easier to second guess why one particular “incorrect” lead was followed up on when another “correct” lead was not. Anyone know how it’s usually handled? Is there some system that’s similar to a “triage” (for lack of a better analogy on no sleep) for incoming tips? Great issue for discussion. I miss JoCo’s input…
Yes, it seems that right now they have a policy
where they may more or less ignore some tips and
investigate others further based on relative factors
at the time. Sara R’s husband’s employee having
somehow positively identified them? I don’t know
how that works when pictures of them and their
car/license plate have been all of the news.
I would be interested in asking John James why he
thought those tire tracks seemed significant and
worth mentioning as opposed to ‘tire tracks being everywhere’… there must have been a reason why
he thought it was important… it may still have
had to do with a ‘hunch’ and timing…
All I can say is, I’m glad John Rachor has a
helicopter!
And I’ll be checking back in later, but I think
I need a ‘nap’ too…
I’ll check to see if anyone’s around and responds
first.
223 – Lisa, I’m around, but mostly working and kind of checking in. I will be interested after the 5th when JoCo has more freedom to discuss both the tips because I got the impression that she had plenty more to say about both of them and couldn’t…
Sounds good Maggie. I know we won’t hear for sure
until the 5th or after. But I was just wondering
if John James saw the tire tracks before there
‘were tire tracks everywhere’ – tire tracks that
went one way – and didn’t come back! And maybe
he checked further up the road…! I know he had
to stop when they ran out of snow, but these
questions still interest me…
I still have a hunch the “truth” – to the degree that we will ever know all of it – will fall somewhere in the middle. While it is true papers need to be sold, surely everything reported in the Sunday O article cannot be a fabrication and/or misinterpretation.
One facet we likely will never know with certainty is how events unfolded that night on that road. Kati’s memory could be far from perfect due to all the subsequent trauma and she may, understandably, not wish to talk about it with the media for years, if ever.
That may be true, but last night her father made
it sound like she may be ready sooner. He said
she’s very direct, and she has an excellent
memory, and it sounded like he was very sure
of that.
227 – Paul, I’ve always agreed with you about the truth falling in the middle – if we ever hear all of it. From what Kati’s dad said last night, and reading her reviews on Yelp, I do get the idea that Kati will probably “tell it” at some point, and like many, I hope she does. I’ve also wondered how acurately she will be able to remember that first night – perhaps many of the things about their thoughts as the confusion began and that kind of thing (sometimes trauma does make those memories more elusive, but not always – hard to say), but since they were so desperately lost, I wonder if she would be able to say for sure things like which roads were what (for example whether they did ever actually get onto FS23 or actually turned around elsewhere on the spur). In any case, whatever she would want to say, I think we’d be all ears. For now, I’m looking forward to whatever bits we actually get to hear more “factually” on the 5th – yet I worry that it won’t necessarily be much that’s released. But you know me, hopeful anyway 🙂
229 – That is true. Given the intent to improve and prevent a recurrence, it would be good from the source why they kept going and what she feels would be appropriate to adequately warn someone in the future.
It kind of seems surprising to me that they hired a
‘footprint specialist’ to look in a creek bed in the
winter. For me, it’s just a time issue… One thing
about that creek bed, there weren’t a lot of places
he could go. It was forward, backward, or up, and all
the trail evidence he was leaving pointed forward…
I keep making typos all over the place “good to hear from the source” (233). Darn sleep deprivation….but hopeful Maggie, are you not in the heartland somewhere (2 time zones over) and did I not see that you were on until the wee hours last night ? I shouldn’t complain.
I commend your hopeful nature, it is a good quality to have.
233 – My pure speculation on why they kept going was because they either:
1. thought that they were still on the correct road (believing they were on Bear Camp Rd) or
2. realized they were very lost but thought that they could get un-lost if they just went a little more – until finally deciding to stop in a place where it was only raining hoping some rest and some daylight would give a different perspective to get out
(now that’s a question that just occurred to me that I hadn’t heard asked in so many words…).
Pac would say “get-there-itis,” but I’m not convinced. Had to have that word on here at least once today… 🙂
234 – Once you get down into it about a mile it is far more a sheer canyon than a creek bed. Topo maps show very severe slopes on both sides. Little wonder he was forced into the water some of the way, there was no other way down.
235 – Paul, I must be sleep deprived, too, because I read right past that as you meant to type it… I’m here in Portland with you guys (I think you both said you are here??) and was up until 2-ish. I need a nap. But I’m working…
Much as I hate to give P any credit, I think he’s onto something with his sunk-cost thing. The turn-off to Bear Camp is 13 or 14 curvy miles off the 5. They knew the right route was another hour back up the 5. I think of all the times I’ve gone over the route from PDX to the coast in winter weater; you encounter snow and you think it will only last a short while – if I can just get over the summit I’m home free.
249 – Different Lisa, but you really should try it sometime, it is the most beautiful trip. Abundant wildlife, beautiful scenery, exhilarating whitewater, I’ve been hopelessly hooked for over 25 years.
Paul, I do understand completely about the sunk-cost thing and have experienced that myself also headed to the coast when it was iffy and not really wanting to head all the way back that far in – though if it looked just bad enough, I would anyway. So, to a degree, I think it’s possible here, but more than that, I just really don’t think they had any idea quite what they were up against or that it was really going to get that bad – until it acutally did and was too late to turn back because they didn’t know how to get “back.” Maybe that’s the point – I’m not sure. I do think it’s separate/different from the idea of wanting to get to their nice hotel so badly that they would take such a risk – I really just can’t fathom that. Who knows. These are the things that maybe, just maybe, Kati will feel like discussing some day, but otherwise it’s so hard to say for sure. So many possible lines of thinking.
No, I’m not offended by what I read here. I think it appropriate and natural to ask questions. Kati has told me many details, but I haven’t really asked her specific questions. She will tell the story in her own fashion.
On the subject of my not going to Oregon right away, I just say we all react differently and I think it is quite alright for some folks to view that in a critical light. I struggled with that decision and in retrospect, I feel comfortable that I did right thing given Sandy’s mother state of mental distress and my great uncertainity in knowing I might be helpful. I suppose my best role would have been interacting with the professional search and rescue team. Anyone remember the Floyd Collins story? His DAD walked around signing autographs. I think for a fee.
RRR, someone asked me earlier if I was a Tomboy because I talked about riding dirt bikes. I was proud to say yes. Are you a Tomboy? Just killing time, not really an important question.
I think most of us would have done the same thing. At the time, I put full faith in searchers. It wasn’t until afterward (unsuccesful search for James) did I start to ask questions and feel uneasy about placing too much faith in the protocols and the search methods. I am not saying that I am being critical now, just that I identify with your reasoning, and I am certain its just that stable sort of attitude you have that will be of great benefit to your family.
Hey, Phil! This is Ellen (Zoner Frank wife, in MA). I’m a lurker here, but have been curious to ask if anyone yet knows who sent the textmessage to the cell phone. Was it a friend who was aware that the family was missing? A technical professional who knew that a text message required less “oomph” than an actual cell phone call to get through? Or was it just one of those “mysteries of life” that bless us every now and then? If you don’t want to reply here (although there may be general interest in your answer), send me word via Frank’s e-mail.
Well its a testament to Dr. Flemings strenth. Because, it didn’t take much for me to get offended, and I have certainly spoken my piece about it on occasion! I hope that is okay with the Flemings even though I’m not involved and it may have been at times better to ignore the few that have been rude and, frankly amazingly unempathatic to the point of being inhuman, in my opinion. The whole thing is just so very EASY for me to understand. Who hasn’t gotten lost?
The more I look at that map too, the more it bothers me. Has anyone else noticed that the roads in that area do not even have names on that ODOT map?
I’m not blaming the map makers but they seriously need to look at that ODOT map and get to working on a better map. I would think this, no matter if that was factor in Kati and James decisions that night.
288) I thought the text message came in before they even stopped on the 1st night (Sat.) So a tech pro would not even know they were lost yet. In fact, friends didn’t think they were missing yet either, it had just happened. If the messages came in some other time, then I guess I’m wrong. But I think it was that very first night that they got lost.
I don’t think Kati’s Dad is going to be posting much or carrying on conversations here, I could always be wrong tho. So why don’t you all just come back in here, sit down, and act normal?
Quoting news reports: “One of the Kims’ cell phones had received two text messages around 1:30 a.m. on Nov. 26, the day after the family was last seen at a restaurant in Roseburg, Ore.”
So we are talking about late Saturday/early Sunday morning of Thanksgiving weekend.
I think I just answered my own question. No way it could have been a SAR person. Nor was any friend/family yet aware they were missing. Must have been just someone sending a normal communication to them. Yet, I still wonder if this person is even aware of the role that he/she played in finding Kati and the girls. Would the cell phone logs trace the sender as well as the recipient?
For someone who was so critical of going off topic and such in the beginning, you have really opened up.
In my opinion things have gotten a little out of control, but that is my opinion, its a forum, a blog, its under Joe’s control only, but he doesn’t have time to sit around and moderate.
I do hope some of the chatter while talking about more serious subjects fade’s into the backgroud. We are in the midst of people that have lost members of their family and I think they will speak for themselves when and if they feel like it.
I do hope everyone remains on good behavior and tries to stick to the topic of conversation, and in my mind the topic is pretty broad, its just that latley its gotten a bit too crazy, does anyone agree?
I thought I had also read that someone (was it an edge wireless person?) had gotten the phone numbers and started sending text messages. Is this right? Or something like that?
294) Mapper, people change their minds. I mean, I could go back and research what was going on in the period you’re referring to, but I’d rather not. I think you’re choosing to remember “negative” things, move on, don’t carry a grudge.
I’m not trying to “speak for” anybody. Noone was “speaking” at all!!!!!
See, I leave my desk from work to come home, and Kati’s Dad stops back in again. Thank you, Mr. Fleming, for popping in again. I am very glad that you are not offended. I understand that you did what you needed to do by being where you were while the search was going on, and I don’t think anyone can give any good reason why you should have done any differently. Even if someone could, it really would be none of his business. I am very glad to hear that you are not signing autographs for a fee – not sure I ever heard that story… Kati is so lucky to have a dad like you in her corner. You clearly love her and support her, and that’s really so nice to see. You all hang in there and keep knowing that we’re thinking of you.
294 – Mapper, even though I feel like I’m one of the guilty parties, I’ll back you that today has gone WAY off topic – not that it’s anything offensive necessarily, but more like a chatroom. That’s not an all bad thing, even kind of good, to a degree. There is a line somewhere (hey, you are the map girl), and I felt like we were nudging over it just a tad. Way back on page one I was almost afraid to post for fear of muddying things up because it was very on topic – now it’s become almost complete opposite. Somewhere in between there is a line, I think. Just my opinion.
304 – It really would be kind of nice to know who it was that sent those two messages (I think there were two back to back). Even if I never got to find out who, just for that person or person(s) to know that somehow the signal made it through and helped.
I have heard that there is really no way to find out who sent them….We have had other searches where text messages have let us know where people are because they take so much less battery power and air wave stuff to send
I read and its possible that its not right but I read that it was a text message from the house sitter. She was worried because the Kims were supposed to be home to relieve her and she hadnt heard from them. She attempted numerous calls but all went to voice mail. Then she attempted the text message. Again, I READ that.
308 – Tara, there’s a good point – whoever sent the text would know that they sent it. If they speak up, we’d know. I’m not sure otherwise if either sending/receiving cell phone companies could or not…?
Thanks, I was trying not to be harsh, glad you understand. I am guilty too so if i was noticing it I knew something must be different!
I just want to say I am very honored that people close to Kati have joined us, that SAR people have joined us, and I hope everyone feels welcome to post here, join the conversation and that the regulars here, well were not like a clique that you cant break. I hope that makes sense.
So I sat in a meeting today about the search and the investigation, I don’t want to damper anyones hopes, however I just don’t want you all to be disapointed if the 5th comes along and you all hear no new word, the word is they will take their time the timeline is the 5th but if they can’t get things done then they will take the time they need
316-
Thanks, hopefully if the governor is reading along he will feel inclined to look me up! I do enjoy cartographic design much more than some of the the technical and analytical work I do!
Thanks for the vote of support!
It is hard work, and obviously a level of responsibility when making maps for public consumption. So, I hesitate to blame ODOT. But there are some very obvious rules that they have broken on that map and I would at least be happy if they took a few simple suggestions to fix some of those mistakes.
It looks like they tried to include a little too much information on the map, and not enough of the absolutley critical information. Hopefully this incident is a catalyst for change. I would not be surprised if many tourists were led astray by that map. Oregon is difficult, with all that wilderness area, but it’s not a good enough excuse to have this confusing of a map.
The trouble is, its not really even confusing until you realize what is missing, and some design choices that are very “off”
A traveller, with no prior knowledge would have no idea all the topo and road info that is missing on that map, in the bear camp area…..is it then so hard to understand they might have made a wrong turn? I dont even see any road names in the area! One could assume by that map that the route will be clearly marked and that its the only main road, that it will be easy to follow.
Its a challenge to do it right, but something needs to be done. They could start with first, making the warning box and text and arrow a uniform color, and not red like all the other benign red lines. Thats just an immediate start, a quick fix. But its easy and cheap.
Ok…I keep hearing all this – hey we are getting off-topic.
We all need to lighten up a bit. This has been a rollercoaster ride from the beginning. We all need a break now and then and currently we are in the “grey” area before the report is out and the investigation is going on.
I hate to even say this…but it has been all the off-topic stuff that has lead to people divulging information they probably would have never done – if it stayed soley on topic.
There is value to the conversational element for all of us. Helps us understand each other and helps some get comfortable with this forum.
Let’s keep the flow casual and see where it goes…we don’t need to control everything in life.
314) I’m going to be visiting my family in Medford for the next few days, and I must say I’m sure I’ll feel a dam site more welcome there than I am here.
321- I agree Glenn – Don’t you feel like you will run out of things to talk about if you don’t get a little light hearted every now and then…keeps people sane…
DH I didn’t mean to offend you. Of course your welcome here. I’m just feeling very sensitive toward outsiders that may feel we are cliquey.
Glenn, yes I agree with you, I hope you understand where I was coming from. I knew I would catch flak for saying something, but I felt I needed to at the time.
I’ll say what I usually say – there is a balance. Now that it’s been mentioned, maybe we’ll give a little more thought about some of the stuff we put out there, and if we still want to after that, then we do. I don’t think Mapper is asking that we make this a sterile environment, unless I totally misunderstood.
(325) Fully understand…but people are not soley about facts, figures and pieces of information.
To successfully engage people in a comfortable and open environment we need to let the ebb and tide carry the current. Whether we like it or not this blog has become a large facilitation of all the information about this SAR effort…
And it goes far beyond the few facts that we are trying to get to the bottom of. It involves 100’s of people.
I would really like to see more the lurkers joining in…and I might add they probably have started because they can see the people here are really human and they really care – not a bunch of drones who just want to throw their opinions around.
Not trying to flatten you mapper…I think you are great and your map work is fantastic…we just need to let this take its course.
Maggie, no. you didn’t misunderstand! Your quite right. I’m not always completley focused at all. There is a balance indeed and I am glad to have gotten to know you all and go off topic on occasion.
I agree with Glenn in that the more casual conversation has led people to feel comfortable enough to make this a real give and take. If it’s slow on topic, what’s wrong with a little chatter about getting coffee, for example? It led right back into the topic after a short (fun) diversion. And as soon as there is a serious question or issue, people snap back right away.
I agree, Maggie and Mapper, that staying on topic is the goal, but I’ve been on sites where you get cut down instantly if you mention an experience you feel pertinent or whatever. Thankfully, not here. Dealing with this group can admittedly be a little like herding cats, but we’re pretty compliant, for the most part.
I just feel we were really starting to make progress in the last couple of days…because we were letting people get comfortable…now JoCoSAR is out…for a while at least.
It would really benefit this forum if the lurkers keep swooping in for a comment or two…very helpful for everyone.
One other thing…a lot of people state we really are proud of SAR, etc…well this has become their sounding wall to vent and finally have a chance to talk to others about this. The James Kim effort was probably the biggest effort in JoCo…so let’s give these guys some room. They need a place to come and talk, shout, whatever. They benefit and in the end we benefit even more.
Hi Ellen, I don’t know anything about the cell phone signal.
Sandy and I had a flight scheduled before the ordeal to go to Germany today for New Year’s, but we didn’t feel right going, so we cancelled and headed for Laughlin and Las Vegas. The girls left yesterday and I will admit I feel guilty now not doing my share of babysitting, it’s been a big part of our lifestyle since the beginning of the month. I have renewed respect for those parents who take loving and proper care of their children, a good bit of work, they are.
Yes, I am exceedingly proud of Kati. She handled herself and cared for her girls in exemplary fashion during their entrappment in the Saab. I’ve also been very impressed with the graceful way she has conducted herself in the aftermath.
I find all the attention this story has attracted very interesting. There are many parallels with the Floyd Collins story of 1925.
Kati’s Dad: You are probably not around right now but I’m glad you’ve stopped in and we’ve gotten a glimpse of the father/grandfather, because I see this family is in good hands. I so worry about Penelope–gosh the look on her face when in her Dad’s arms. I can’t stand it when my 15 month old cries when I leave for work…I can’t imagine what it must be like to tell a girl she will never see her father again. I really hope she is ok and am glad she has such a loving grandfather.
333/336 – I agree 110% that because of your support, Kati’s Dad, and Kati’s spirit, things will be closer to OK. Definitely it will be different because James isn’t there, but the spark and charisma and humor with which Kati shares on Yelp (sorry, that’s the only bit of Kati outside of this that I know), the girls will be blessed.
Now I’ll have to go read up on the Floyd Collins story you’ve mentioned…
332 – Kip, I don’t think it’s a matter of discouraging anybody in particular from posting, but rather asking anyone who does post to be considerate enough not to make wild statements for the shock value. As we do have a family member (and who knows who else) present, and persons involved in the rescue, the discourse can at least be civil and reasoned, IMO. If Pac posts nonsense, he will get flamed, and then it discourages others who might want to participate but don’t want to wade through it all. I think it’s fine to have a code of ethics on a board, why not?
333 – Kati’s Dad, I meant to say to – yah, I hate that, too, when I construct some long response and then I lose it before I can post it. Anything longer than about 5 easy to remember sentences, I copy into a notepad file just in case… 🙂
And I do hope you enjoy some fun in Laughlin and Vegas – you deserve it!
“It was the tragedy of Floyd Collins, perhaps, which gave the clearest indication up to that time of the unanimity with which the American people could become excited over a quite unimportant event if only it were dramatic enough.
Floyd Collins was an obscure young Kentuckian who had been exploring an underground passage five miles from Mammoth Cave, with no more heroic purpose than that of finding something which might attract lucrative tourists. Some 125 feet from daylight he was caught by a cave in which pinned his foot under a huge rock. So narrow and steep was the passage that those who tried to dig him out had to hitch along on their stomachs in cold slime and water and pass back from hand to hand the earth and rocks that they pried loose with hammers and blow-torches. Only a few people might have heard of Collins’s predicament if W. B. Miller of the Louisville Courier-Journal had not been slight of stature, daring, and an able reporter. Miller wormed his way down the slippery, tortuous passageway to interview Collins, became engrossed in the efforts to rescue the man, described them in vivid dispatches-and to his amazement found that the entire country was turning to watch the struggle. Collins’s plight contained those elements of dramatic suspense and individual conflict with fate which make a great news story, and every city editor, day after day, planted it on page one. When Miller arrived at Sand Cave he had found only three men at the entrance, warming themselves at a fire and wondering, without excitement, how soon their friend would extricate himself. A fortnight later there was a city of a hundred or more tents there and the milling crowds had to be restrained by barbed-wire barriers and state troops with drawn bayonets; and on February 17, 1925, even the New York Times gave a three- column page-one headline to the news of the denouement:
FIND FLOYD COLLINS DEAD IN CAVE TRAP ON 18TH DAY; LIFELESS AT LEAST 24 HOURS; FOOT MUST BE AMPUTATED TO GET BODY OUT
Within a month, as Charles Merz later reminded the readers of the New Republic, there was a cave-in in a North Carolina mine in which 71 men were caught and 53 actually lost. It attracted no great notice. It was “just a mine disaster.” Yet for more than two weeks the plight of a single commonplace prospector for tourists riveted the attention of the nation on Sand Cave, Kentucky. It was an exciting show to watch, and the dispensers of news were learning to turn their spotlights on one show at a time.”
On topic / off topic: my 2 cents is, for those who have been here since near the start, a break helps every now and then. It is a very heavy, sad yet at the same time inspirational story. We’ve been obsessed with the facts and specifics. It is good to get to know the human element of some of our blogging counterparts.
I am so glad Kati’s dad has joined us. I think that is something we have all wondered constantly about…how is she doing?…how are the girls?…how’s her support network?…what would a family member think of all these comments? It is good to know she has such capable hands behind her for support.
Dr. Fleming,
Is it frustrating to deal with the widespread enduring attention or do you see any benefit? Feel free to not answer I am just wanting to understand. Thank you for everything so far…
(332) I have no problem with Pac as long as he would switch his mantra, come up with something new, stop giving legal advice unless he is on the Oregon Bar…
332 – I have to disagree. There is no one quite like Pac (well , O & MM, but they were here but briefly), and I truly believe his major motivation is to stir up conflict. Disagreement, contrary opinions, those are fine. His motivations go far beyond that. He crosses basic lines of courtesy and respect flagrantly and frequently.
347 – no, it is not just that…there is more to it than that. Go back and re-read some of his choicer posts, there are very troubling elements that go far, far beyond a difference of opinion.
How is a lurker supposed to break in with thoughts on this tragedy, when whatever they say gets drowned out by discussions of coffee or whatever. I took a stab at posting an idea yeserdat and within a short time it was completely forgotten as everyone started going off topic. I could imagine some lurkers feeling it isn’t worth trying to break in with a comment that will get ignored or drowned out. Me, being a forum junky, don’t mind giving it a shot, but what about others?
That said, I don’t mind going a little off topic now and then, as long as someone brings int back quickly. Last night I went to bed around post 540 and when I got up today there were over 500+ posts to read, with a significant number of them way off topic.
Now I’ve said this, but I don’t want to get into a 50 post discussion on this as it is off topic. 🙂
Paul I have been here since we were in the first 200 comments. Just voicing a frustration. I think everyone knows I dont always stick to the topic. Maggie hit the nail on the head when she said its become like a chatroom isntead of a forum, and I did take DH to task for saying the same thing, and putting us all down a few thousand comments ago. Maybe I did have a grudge. Sorry.
Thanks Kati’s dad that is a very interesting story and prespective, much to think about.
Interesting story, Mr. Fleming. Reminds me of how the Natalie Holloway story took off, who knows which stories will capture the attention of people and which won’t? Had there been an internet in ’25, I don’t know if people would have been talking about the cave rescue operation vs. Floyd’s own actions or what.
My dad was a newspaperman, and one of my earliest memories is hearing him talk about having to cover the Kathy Fiscus well story when we first moved to CA, a public sensation as well. He had a sister who was killed in an accident at a school picnic, and as a result had a lifelong aversion to morbid curiousity. Made it hard for him in the news business!
What we don’t want is a carnival atmosphere surrounding the ordeal of Kati’s family, it deserves to have a positive, educational outcome.
Thanks dkf747, I hear you loud and clear and thought maybe some felt that way. I also hope we can stop talking about it now and just know that some people are feeling that way! Thanks 🙂
344 – Kati’s Dad, thank you for pointing out that story (still working on the longer read that you linked as well…). I see what you mean about the parallels – there sure are a few. Way back on here somewhere, I think we’ve talked once in awhile about just what it was this time that really grabbed our attention and made us watch every moment of your daughter and son-in-law’s rescue ordeal unfolding as we cheered along and then cried along, and there were a lot of reasons that all made some sense – the sense of hope when your girls were found made us really think that the whole thing could have a happy ending, the idea that this was a young family complete with babies that seemed so happy and likable, for some it was the identification with how such a tragedy could unfold, for some it was because they knew James from TechTV and his podcasts on CNET. There are a million reasons, I suppose. But still, it is sort of interesting why it just happened to be your family’s plight and not something else going on that we barely remember.
354 – There was a story some years back that gripped the country, life in the balance…the young girl who was trapped in the old well?…ultimately rescued safely….can’t remember her name, but it was a huge national story.
No it is not frustrating now, but I’m obviously concerned about the little kids receiving too much media exposure.
Kati has grieved considerably, but she is otherwise doing as well as can be expected considering her dear loss. The girls are doing fine. As can be anticipated, the 4 yr has lots of questions about her Angel Dad now. Sandy and I are heartbroken at what they have lost. But to keep it in perspective, it’s a scene played out with children every day in this country especially with the ongoing sacrifices of the wars. I do not think there will be long trauma from their days of enduring freezing and starvation. The long-trerm effect will be from the loss of their much beloved and most capable really great Dad.
358 – The first case was Kathy Fiscus, who fell in a well in ’49. The news media fell over themselves covering it (my dad was sent as a reporter). She was found dead, and it was a very big story. The other one, around 1988, was Jessica McClure, I think in TX, who survived and got married a few years ago.
Dr. Fleming it’s really great to have you checking in here. I think everybody has been touched but also somewhat surprised about how Kati’s family story gripped the entire nation even as other huge news was in our event horizons. Your points in 361 are well taken indeed.
The Floyd Collins story vs mine disaster may be a good parallel. It’s easier to access some stories/people and I think with Kati and James we all felt “wow, this could have happened to my family”. I still think this is an amazing story in many respects.
Can’t stay now as we have a family movie to watch but FYI the stats yesterday showed about 5000 people “watching”. [CORRECTION – 5000 “views” which could come from a smaller number of people]
Tara – ha! I like the idea that I’m many of the commenters here but it’s not the case. In fact I haven’t even seen any indication anybody is using two name (except when it’s obvious it’s the same person like Dr. Fleming or RogueRiverRat. (Hey RRR – are there really 78 Rogue River Rats over there on the River?)
I’m just a lurker here, but I recognize what a critical mass of attention is now being focussed all of you who are active on the JoeDuck site, and hope that the momentum you have already started — to act toward solutions and not be bogged down in just gossip — can be continued.
If I may throw out my question, as i stated last night I am amazed by all of you who are “hooked” (for lack of a better word) on this search, my question is why?? I mean I know why I am because I was involved directly with it. And knowing that many of us who worked it wonder ourselves as to why we were effected as we were from working it, to see people “hooked” is strange also.
371 – All the investigations I think have kind of paused things a bit…waiting to see what comes out of those, what topics we’ve tackled will be addressed by them, which ones won’t….what the investigations deem to be the truly critical elements, etc.
Speaking of media, Ellen, that raises another good point. Which comes first: The public “jumps” on a story at first mention and the media sees the opportunity and cranks it up, or does the media really have the strongest role in determining what makes a huge story? Did Greta make Natalie Holloway into a top headline story, or did she merely report what the all-Aruba-all-the-time public wanted to hear?
371 – Ellen, I’m glad that it is apparent what we all trying to do here. Of course we are curious about things related to James and Kati’s situation, but the focus is on what can be done in part, I think, because so many of us feel that it could have been us with just the wrong set of circumstances lining up. Anything to prevent that is a good thing.
Madeleine, all of your insight into the media angle so far has been interesting and fascinating – too much going on to name them by number (did that make any sense?), but thank you.
350 – dkf747, I just took a look back, and many of us did respond to your idea about the electronic sign (which I loved because of the updating for current conditions it had). Did we miss something? If so, please do speak up!
372 – RRR, I have to bring up the media again. There was good publicity at the beginning to try and help get the story out to increase the chances of finding the family. So lots of people were following it along, and got drawn in by the ordinariness, if there’s such a word, of this nice, normal family ending up stranded in the middle of nowhere while tantalizingly close to civilization. If it could happen to them, it could happen to anyone!
People just identify with ordinary people who get into awful situations without expecting to. And then it became a cause for some of us to make something good come from it. Just my two cents. (My cents are adding up fast tonight, I’d better let others have a chance to talk…)
(371) You can count on it! Work has already begun, organization of the future efforts has begun, keep your eyes here – you will start to see the information flow in early Jan. Joe and I (and others – not sure if they want 2 b mentioned) have begun laying out a strategy to involve internet technology and volunteers in a system that could make a difference in these efforts.
If JoCo SAR will give Joe and I a 1/2 to 3/4 of a day I plan to fly to Oregon and facilitate a process session to collect the key datapoints and identify potential process failure points so that we can supplement the existing SAR process with an organized platform for volunteers, SAR and the families to participate in solving the many mysteries during a SAR effort (>48hours).
We are also at the very beginning stages of a Memorial Database to allow people to enter the location information of fatalities on our roads. If someone traveling pulls up a Google map they can get an overlay with our data and the points of concern will be dotted on their travel path. Hopefully it will cause a traveler to look more closely at the map and read the details for each data-point.
(372) I think the outcome could have been different. IMO James did not have to die. With better systems and more eyes to assist it is our goal that we can shorten the time it takes to find someone missing. Better to try and do something then not.
(377) I thought if the sign were going to be electronic then it should be a memorial of some sort to really let people know the depth of the decision they are making. I thought I posted that too…
Stop me if I am prying too much but you say in your opinion James did not have to die, do you think with the “better systems and more eyes” would have prevented that?? I know its your opinion just asking…..
382 – Only speaking for myself, but that is the question that lingers in my mind, and I’m hopeful the two-pronged investigations will shed some light on that. Just a few days would have made the difference – was there some way to shave a few days off the process ? To me it remains an open ended question.
This story drew me in because of my interests and I could relate to the Kims, and I read the news a lot anyway (probably more susceptible to be drawn in) But also because its a map story to me. Maps are used in both prevention and maybe not enough in response. There are so many new technologies that are not utitlized (and for obvious reasons like funding of because they are new and not yet part of protocols). I was drawn in thinking, gosh I have this software on my own computer, to think I might have been able to at least assist others, who were not privy to the government info, with maps, I could have assisted private pilots, etc. just using free data I could download online. Or even, just myself to better understand the situation or to try to take an educated guess about what James might have done, and later to find out where he might have gone wrong (the ODOT map)
Anyway, it was an interest from my map and government prespective but also because I have an interest in human stories…and the internet.
Funny that Kati’s dad should bring up the Floyd Collins story vs. the mine disaster. A few years back…was it the Sago mine? I havn’t looked at the link yet, it was the one in Pennsylvania. That one also drew me in because there was talk of a faulty MAP being at the root of the problem.
(382) I do not know enough yet to answer that question. My gut tells me it could have been different…not trying to judge what was done or not done…just want to see if we can improve it. I think SAR on the ground kicked serious butt. It is my hunch that the the standard coordination process was interfered with this time – don’t know why yet and I don’t think people were allowed to do their job…now would that have made a difference…I don’t know.
Also I have been involved in this since the beginning…before all the media got involved…the word was spreading out on the net and I remembered James from pre GT4 days…and I have everything cataloged from several sources and I am going to see this through at this point.
Hopefully we can do something to help the next person that is lost.
376 – Maggie, thank you for those kind words! I was going to say to RRR that with the internet, people not only can follow a story, but actually become part of it. How many of us have sent e-mails or called or had access to public figures from this incident? Look at us now, we’re here talking to Katy’s Dad, RRR and JoCo and others involved in SARs, etc. So we are, in effect, part of the story. I don’t think it’s a case of just being hangers-on, I think we see a way to change something and we’re attempting to do it.
I have to admit I also have questions. Because I know Joesphine County has a GIS department. I wonder what the communication is like between the actual SAR and the people that make maps in-house. Because, GIS people can do line of site maps, and it does bother me to think, they dont even know this, the edge wireless people did not even have to do this themselves or explain it. All they would need is the info for the cell tower (coords) and a USGS DEM and the gis people for JoCo should have probably been involved in that.
I wonder about communication within the county but I am not trying to be critical, but this was one of my original questions. I dont have the answer myself. But it is two emergent technologies that have collided in this case (gis and cell phones)
RRR, my interest began with my regular CNET news-email arriving with the info the Kim family was missing. After reading where they were traveling and supposed to be traveling to, I emailed everyone I could and suggested they check Bear Camp Rd (because of memories of DeWitt Finely; I lived in the NW then). From there on I had to follow events as they unfolded.
386 – I don’t think it was quite as simple as that. There are dozens upon dozens of spur roads that take off from Bear Camp…off of each of those spur roads are more roads. Zoom in on Google, it looks like spagetti. The forest canopy is dense, and unless you are all but directly over the subject, you are not going to see them….and in the early going they were trying to cover everywhere from Roseburg to Crescent City. It was only further on that they narrowed the scope to Bear Camp based on the cell pings.
…but your question will hopefully be addressed in the near future one way or the other.
385 – Mapper (I swear, I’ll be quiet after this one), you are so right about maps. I was haunted after the Cerritos air disaster some years ago because I was convinced that an error in the chart could have contributed to the small plane flying up into the Aeromexico jet at the edge of the Los Angeles Terminal Control Area. For a couple of years, we’d been telling the company who made the charts that the landmark that marked the edge of the TCA was no longer there, but was still showing on the charts. I still wonder if the private pilot was confused, looking for a huge green tank to tell him he was headed into the TCA.
390- I can tell ya our GIS person was in constant contact with us, (housed in the same building) I don’t know about the communication with the Cell and GIS.
I know I sound critical, obviously I wasn’t there but it has been my experience working with GIS that most people are unaware of what it is and it really takes time for its full functionality to come out, even when there is a full time employee using gis in house. It was just the line of sight map issue that bothered me the most because it seemed to me that should have been easier to come up with, though it sounds like the edge guys had their own way of doing the map anyway.
392- As a business manager in the Galice area, I can tell ya you weren’t the only one emailing, I received MANY emails from friends and family asking if they stayed at our resort, or if they passed through…..It was a huge effort
385 — sometimes the thought is enough to make me want to quit my profession, so much liability! That is why we put huge disclaimers on most maps we make so that we don’t get sued!! But its really very interesting and I know most of us do our very best to make maps “true”
398 – yes that is what I read. The article just made it sound so “difficult” for everyone. Obviously these are new things (I mean had anyone heard of a ping 15 years ago or was it used to find missing people?) there is just so much new stuff and wasy to coordinate with people. I dont blame JoCo, its just that there is a lot more now than ever to deal with.
mapper, good maps are a must but I think you’ll agree one must read a good map effectively too. I’ve boated/sailed the Pacific and Atlantic coasts. I admit I’ve had a few really close calls, near disasters, because of reading the map (chart) incorrectly, making wrong assumptions.
Until this search I can only remember two others, and they were in the neighboring county that the Cell programs to help us out. This is a first for us and as you can see from the MT hood Search it will be of help in many more
Yes, of course. People need to read maps correctly but we are trained to design in such a way that makes it possible to understand maps better. It is an art and a science and I could show you two maps of the same thing, and one would pass but one would be 10 times better….you know?
(406) we used it…not for SAR but for commercial purposes. Shame is…this capability could be much better and the carriers could really do something about this…
[393] … “but your question will hopefully be addressed in the near future one way or the other.” Paul, I sure hope it is. I wish there were more folks asking that very same question. It’s the crux of the issue. imo.
413- From and insider few I have to agree, I believe that some people did the job they were assigned however in a true ICS system you are correct people didn’t get to do the job they needed to or should have
Well I would be happy to take anyone up in the road and show the crazy road system when the weather is better of course (however that is summer time and then I only get one day off a week so you better schedule early!)
(414) ok here is the biggie…do you think if it went down like it supposed to…like so many times before…do you think time could have been saved in the search?
416- No I don’t think that time could have been saved honestly…….if time was saved I believe it would be such a minute amount it wouldn’t be worthy……It was more about communication and politics and people afraid of stepping on toes
417 – Interesting. It would have to be days to have made a difference for James (I still doubt he made it more than 2 nights and quite possibly only made it one).
418- But all those things you posted in 536 on page one have been in other searches and had negative outcomes and yet the media draw has NEVER been like this….
418 – Paul, I went back and re-read that (you should re-post it here maybe), and once again, my thoughts out of your keyboard. Lots of reasons all rolled into one. The only reason I can think of to add for myself is because it’s somewhat “local” and because I’ve taken similar roads in similar mountains and understand even in daylight how difficult and confusing it can be – could have been me.
420 – Was not speaking to the media draw so much as what got me drawn in. I can’t address what drew so much national attention…here in OR, the Crater Lake story recvd comparable coverage, as did Mt Hood recently.
421 – Can’t find the link, but the coroner later clarified that he doubted James could have made it beyond Monday, but that was his guesstimate as the body never re-entered rigor mortis and his core temp has equalized with the outside air temp, making it impossible to get much beyond a guestimate.
424 – River, if he had only known. After that many days, I’d have left, too. At that point, a decision has to be made while you still have one to make, and if it looks like help might not come, that may be the only chance. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sadly, it’s a gamble. Very sadly, Kati and girls lost James in that deal.
[417] … gees, ONE person, at his own volition, on his own tab, use his noggin and his knowledege of the area, one day decides to find the Kims, and HE does.
“communication and politics and people” sounds like excuse making gobblygook.
431) Mail Tribune forums. I hesitate to direct you to a URL, then you will truly see the idiot. Forums are well linked from http://www.mailtribune.com.
[411] … Paul, yes. Admittedly only an educated guess. One press conference they pulled out a topo map of the W.C. area with pins showing the *new*!! locations of where the car was parked, where James left the road, etc. anderson looked confused and uneasy imo with his role in the presentation. Ever see somebody turn a map upside down or sideways when trying to make sense of it? Means to me they are not confortable working with maps.
437 – River, feel free not to answer. As part of JoCo’s “almost sequestering,” is he/she able to still be in contact with you and others? I just hope there is still some outlet, especially if JoCo is lurking and wishing to comment.
(429) If there were signs of fire then it would leave me to believe he could have lived longer than I think he did. Given the temperatures, etc…being wet I don’t think anyone could have survived long. The numbers just don’t work.
As for rigor-mortis and determining time of death it would be almost impossible to determine it. I am not a doctor and only a doctor (MD/ME) can state time of death. With those cold conditions rigor can begin within 10 minutes and btw…the faster rigor sets in…the faster it goes away – that has to do with the acid build up in the muscle tissue, etc. In river recoveries I have actually seen an expert factor in the amount of silt built up under the fingernails to aid in determining length in water…it is pretty morbid stuff but determining time of death is critical in a lot of cases.
Glenn on the first page of all this you posted a big long thing but in caps it says “Accept the fact SAR failed in it’s mission”…..Do you really think that?
439- As far as I know they are still able to talk with us all but I dunno, I have left a couple messages today with them and yet have not heard back…..Could have just gotten busy I dunno
(441) based on what I knew at the time yes most definitely. Do I feel that now? Sure in some regards…
1) Katie and the kids were found by non SAR volunteers
2) James was first spotted by a non SAR resource
So in that regard I would say yes.
Do I think things could have been done better and could have saved James? I don’t know…
Did SAR do the best they could? I would say the feet on the ground did their very best – as always – however was their focus and coordination compromised? – maybe we need to find that out. Also would SAR have found them with better coordination before the volunteers did…who knows but worth looking into.
I have been very critical of Anderson and Sara R. from the beginning – with one-sided information and no response from either. My opinion on part of this equation is changing thanks to JoCoSAR but in whole I think we need to see the results of the investigation.
Joe Duck and a few others had startling insight on where to look for James…how did they come up with their assessment of where to look and SAR coordination did not? I think that is worth looking into.
Hope that gives a balanced response…in the beginning I was pretty angry with what I was hearing from locals and the press…I make no apologies for that…I think that collective anger (from many) caused this all to happen and ultimately I hope it will lead to something positive from this.
449 – River, if you were to read back through all of the pages, you would start to see the gradual shift from many of us once we started hearing the other side. Jumping from Page One to Page Four is really and incredible leap in thoughts, actually 🙂 JoCo did much mind opening here.
[446] …. Maggie, that’s ALL that I heard too, until RRR’s [429] comment tonight. I cannot believe James could possibly have slept at all that freezing night. Wet & cold. Deathly worried as he must have been.
wpflem (777, third comments), you wrote that “Kati will tell her story.” Will she give a real interview to a real reporter who will ask real questions? Look, this story was a national event. It’s a shame what happened, but her husband is being called a hero, when in fact both he and Kati ignored a whole series of warnings and simple common sense in their rush to reach that resort.
I realize that this is terrible knowledge, but that’s what tragedy is about. I think Kati’s got a bunch of questions to answer, and I hope she’ll do so in a candid interview.
1. Why did they ignore four warnings?
2. Why didn’t they pat attention to the weather forecast or to the snow falling outside their windows?
3. Why didn’t they have clothing adequate for a rainy night, let alone a snowy one?
4. Is it true that they had been on that road before, as Bob Hollenbeck has alleged?
5. Did she and her husband discuss their route?
6. Did they take Bear Camp Road by mistake or by design?
7. Why didn’t they fill up the gas tank in Roseburg?
8. Why did they keep on going when it should have been obvious that they were in trouble?
9. Given that your daughter had lived in Eugene, OR for quite a while, how is it that they wound up on the single most dangerous road through the Coast Range in the middle of the night, when other safe routes ae so well known?
People here will hate me for asking those questions, but I’m here to tell you that the VAST majority of people who still think about this tragedy have been asking questions like those. They boil down to: What in hell were they doing there to begin with?
It’s terrible that James Kim died, but three other people came close to dying, including two defenseless and completely dependent children. This is an issue of responsibility and negligence. Other people face it all the time.
p.s.: To all, I didn’t show up while Kati Kim’s father was here because I had gone to bed. Had I been on line, I wouldn’t have hesitated for a microsecond to post my questions. This Oprah gush-fest is outrageous and dishonest. Grow up!
452- I am just finding it very strange that some of the feelings you all voiced here were feelings of those that some felt while on the search and afterwards
462- Well I asked Glenn about his comment of saying that SAR failed and if he really thought that……My feeling for about 2 weeks after the search was the same….That SAR….That “we” failed…..but I was feeling as from being someone on the inside working, so to hear (read) it from a bystanders point I find it interesting.
435 – DH – Don’t keep apologizing for your earlier posts. I was pretty much outspoken myself about what had been published regarding SAR, things I couldn’t understand. And I should know better, as the media always says things that the persons involved are not allowed to respond to, so it’s usually one sided.
For me, one of the other lessons of this project is to be a more objective person when evaluating the first “facts” reported in cases such as these. The early reports were all we had to go on, and nobody wants to write posts full of weasel words like “alleged” and “it was reported”. I personally will try to be less scathing (as I was mostly elsewhere, not so much here) until I have heard something from the other side. My mistake was listening to what seemed like frank admissions from Sara that she was completely off the mark in the operation, overwhelmed, didn’t know what was going on, etc. That’s how it sounded, and that didn’t set well.
467 – River, from a personal standpoint, ouch! There are surely still some questions, but again, I do hope that if you read along with us, you’ll see where some failures that seemed certain have been called into question.
Mapper – has Pac EVER answered your questions about his/her qualifications?…about what makes him/her qualified to be the designated arbiter off what is most relevant and important?…No ??…yeah, I didn’t think so.
Thank you for laying out your qualifications so well. Nice to have a map expert in the fray given the topic at hand.
Thanks Paul. And, as I stare at this page, kind of with my head turned, like is this really happening…I remember he has not answered my questions at all.
P.S.: I am utterly unqualified for anything, but in spite of that I remain the only poster who has offered ANY practical ideas that would save lives. As we all know, most of you have absolutely ZERO interest in doing that. You’d rather cry a river of tears for James Kim, Hero of the Woods than stoop to saving any lives.
471 – Mapper, remember when (maybe you don’t) I didn’t say anything when Pac piped up because I thought he’d go away with no response? Then at one point you mentioned that you say something because if any friend or relative of James or Kati were to read this, you would want them to know that someone said something and didn’t just let them trash the Kim’s that way?
It’s taken until now. You were right. I understand.
Joe – I want to know why we are taken to task for name calling and Pac is allowed to engage in all manner of abuse and still post with impunity. I was deleted for such a post, yet if I went back through the last several thousands of posts I am certain I could pull enough of his abuse to curl anyone’s hair. It seems a double standard.
It is not my place to provide information, speculate, or even ask her those same questions. Hey, this is her tale, she will choose how and when to tell the story. The only thing I can say is that I believe she will give an honest and very straight forward accounting of the ordeal.
re483) Joe, does that pertain to everyone, or just me? I like you and your forum to put it bluntly, but should I be singled out? Am I being punished? I don’t care about me not posting on subject, but I do care about being singled out. Did I miss a public announcement by you not to post on subject? Thanks.
(494) I am sure Joe has his opinion but I think he is just recognizing your frustration with your loose lips! Loose lips sinks ships…
I don’t think it is punishment but just a clear reminder to tighten up your lips…you keep posting things that could compromise JoCoSAR…and besides that you make more work for Joe.
492 – Kati’s Dad, if you’ve stuck around even after that and so easily responded as you did, then I think you are through about the worst of what folks here have worried about you reading, and I know even more that much of Kati’s courage and strength must have come right from you (not that this is much compared to what you’ve been through, but not everyone would stay and respond at all). Anyway, I’m glad that you are here.
So Pac, you say you have no qualifications in this area at all….you must do something. I mean, you think your ideas are the only practical ones and that none of us have any interest in saving lives, at all. What is your basis or life experience for all of these things you present as so factual? Please, we need some background on Pac to better understand your stance and brilliance.
495) Well, I still feel singled out. Don’t pull any punches. I mean lots of other people are perfect. That’s how I’m feeling. You know, I feel bad enough about it already, believe me. But in the end, i am only concerned with the opinion of the subject theirself.
It’s best that I will be on vacation for a few days. You probably would not believe how I have tried to make up for this. But one things for sure, I need to walk away for a while . I don’t need my dam computer screen making me cry.
492 – You have character, class, courage and admirable restraint. I applaud heartily your response. Thank you again for being with us.
496 – What would I add ?..you say it so well.
497 – ditto.
490 – Glenn, I’m sorry. It has to be said. Then I’ll go back on topic. Please do not ever use Pac and Dutch Brothers in the same sentence again because if the association begins, all of my mornings will not be OK. Driving through Dutch Brothers is an almost religious experience – now almost sullied. Please stop. OK, I’m back on signs and maps!
[492] – Kati’s Dad… you set a badly needed good example here giving a civil & responsible response to a NW’r post. Thank you. Best wishes to you and your wonderful girls.
501 – We are all more than a little tired, and last time I checked, you had something like a half dozen trees fall on your house. I’m sorry your feeling dumped on, it’s probably a misunderstanding. We like your participation.
Paul 488 is a fair question about why some comments were deleted and others have not been and I’m not sure I have a good answer, but here are some factors. Also note I’m not deleting much right now unless it addresses identities of people.
1) This is my blog but it’s not my job – I try to read everything and get in a few comments but it would be very hard to take the time to review all the comments and delete and edit according to an objective standard, even if I had one.
2) I don’t have a good objective standard. When this started I thought it would go to a few hundred comments at most. By tomorrow we’ll probably top 4000. I’ve never even seen that at *any* blog let alone mine.
3) For reasons that are confusing me (cuz I’m a pretty objective guy) I do not agree with many of the regular posters here about what is abusive stuff vs spirited and mean-spirited criticism. Former is bad, latter is acceptable.
If somebody says to me “Joe’s idea is idiotic and is based on foolish assumptions” I do not consider that abusive (just mean), but if they say “Joe is an idiot” I say it is abusive. Maybe I’m hanging out with Silicon Valley types too much, but it’s considered good form to bash ideas and bad form to bash people and I agree with that standard, especially in this blog style discussion.
4) I’ve left in criticism of Kati and James because it’s relevant to the discussion. That was a tricky decision and I almost went the other way, deleting the many mean spirited comments that appear to have little regard for the fragile emotions in play, especially in the families. I was very happy to see Dr. Fleming handle questions so gracefully and I’m confident Kati can handle her critics without suffering emotional damage.
Also, deleting all the objectionable stuff would defy the very spirit of the online community that creates blogs in the first place and I think it’s part of why so many are here to listen to the dialog and participate. Also, I really think (or maybe I just hope?) that James and Kati, both very enthusiastic online people, would understand this. James was, after all, a blogger himself.
DH,
I do apolgize, please dont take it so seriously. I just made one comment earlier, and please understand you were not so nice in the beginning here. No one wants you to cry and go away, at all. Theres a lot going on here, your definitley not singled out 🙂
507 – Part II 🙂 ?
Joe want to clarify I had no problem with you deleting what you deleted of mine. I guess where we differ is under your #3 above, I still feel Pac routinely & flagrantly steps over the line, but it is your blog so I won’t belabor the point. I wasn’t looking for mass deletions, just fairness.
My reasoning for taking Pac so seriously, is because I am a woman of Kati’s age…a strong woman. But I have also suffered loss and people like that really can get to you no matter how strong you are.
I’m so happy Dr. Fleming is there for Kati, and is here a picture of restraint.
But, I know at times I have also needed a voice, to keep me grounded, that the criticism was unfair and uncalled for. Kati owes no one anything, she did not decieve anyone.
I am not asking you to delete pacs words.
Just understand my position, I hope.
Thanks for the blog, and thanks Maggie too, we seem to be on the same page about that!
I’m trying to stay away from personally insulting pac, but I do sense he is an abusive person…hey my minor was sociology okay. And I am just calling that out, though I guess it is a personal insult and for that I apolgize.
D.H. 494 – D.H. I’m really sorry to have upset you over this and of course I mean that *everybody* should work hard to preview comments and make sure they do not address the identity of other posters. Glenn understood my concerns in his comment 495.
Thanks Paul. Frankly, I’m at the point where I’ll probably delete only the comments that might compromise identities. So go ahead and repost whatever I deleted earlier and it’ll probably stay up!
RRR – the software here is called “WordPress” and as the blog owner I can use a control panel to access statistics about how many people visit per day.
518 – Nah, I’m going to try to adhere to a higher standard and not stoop to the low level of my antagonist. We can all take a lesson from the amazing & admirable restraint displayed by Kati’s dad. If he can exhibit such self-control, I can do no less than try to emulate him.
okay so anyway, pac I am still deeply interested in what is you do. I really want to know your factual basis for why you think none of us care about lives being saved, and why your approach is so practical.
Simply changing the ODOT map, to make the warnings better, could be done in one work day by the right person…certainly not expensive. Are you saying that would be counter-productive to saving lives?
521 – Paul, I’m picking the middle again. I’ll say something, but it may only be 🙄 instead of nothing since that didn’t work. Maybe now that the questions have been put out there, the need to demand answers on those points will lessen (still hopeful me!).
522 – Yes, Joe, we’ve been very responsible with the emoticons 8)
Maggie you’re hopefulness is inspiring. If Pac cannot respect the answer from Kati’s dad then I think we should all just give up on him. My guess is he will be unable to.
SO just to touch on you never know who is watching or reading these…..Just and FYI I heard today that the blog has been printed out and is at folks interviews for the investigation….Just shows ya you never know who is watching
Well, it is nice to get the attention, but beyond some people perhaps participating who were told not to, how could the blog help them with an official investigation into what went wrong ?…if anything did ? We are merely speculating and discussing on what was reported elsewhere. Seems almost kind of desperate and/or a bit too “big brother is always watching ” for me.
534 – I had a feeling that was going to happen. He/she was just a bit too forthcoming with very specific info that, given the quasi gag order, was sure to come back and bite him/her. Not that I think that is right or anything…if it’s all true, why should it matter ?
lol…yes I am still worried that if this got really big my friends, ex’s, family would know what I am doing (and trashing a certain ex’s fire department in the early pages). I certainly do like my anonyimity here (I know I spelled that wrong…). I dont think anyone I know would really care about me posting here, but still, its a little weird to think that I have given enough away for someone to figure out who I am…gosh, I just hope that person is not pac and he comes to find me ….hahaha. sorry but I have thought about that.
RRR…I hope none of this is used against you. It does sound a bit “big brother” to me too.
I always did get the feeling this was attracting attention though, this has been a great, no, excellent group.
542- Don’t sweat it……The whole techno world could be watching and using cyber monkeys to transport info to big brother….We speak the truth and our opinions are ours you can’t hold that against us!
543- better get it in or I will take all avalaible for myslef 🙂
546 – You are commercial, you get a set allocation no matter what I thought. A sore subject with private boaters like me, but not really, you need to have that assurance to run your business…I am just jealous.
Dr. Fleming, this may sound strange, but I hope Kati writes a book if she decides she wants to discuss her ordeal. It might be therapeutic and would certainly be of interest to others. On the down side, some would protest that she was taking advantage of a tragedy, which is simply petty and small. It would also be a tribute to James for his daughters. I have no doubt that she would be honest and open, should she choose to do this.
Good night, all, Joe has tucked everyone in. I’m writing the last post number down to see what the posting gremlins put up overnight.
Thats funny…posting gremlins. I’m still working, crazy, trying to figure something out that is driving me nuts.
Anyway, I would read Kati’s book too. And your right, some might criticize that too. I know this could be a life changing event, who knows what it might inspire her to do. I do hope that eventually, after the pain subsides, it is an inspiration of sorts. Perhaps she will find herself interested in new causes, or maybe even a proponent of some ideas we talk about here…I bet she has some pretty good ideas herself, which I would love to hear.
If I were her, right now…I know how I would be feeling, at least pretty sure. I would never want to set foot in oregon again. (no offense to oregon) but I know I would not feel the same about adventuring and camping. I’d probably want to hide away with my family, or alone, and knowing me, well I would probably spend about 2 months in sweats on the couch too. But she probably can’t do that. She probably is stronger than myself too. But I can’t help but jump to her defense anyway. I know that girl would never purposefully put herself, her babies and her husband at risk. I’m positive of that.
Having heard many of the details of the case, I think it very desirable for Kati to detail their family tragedy in a book. I think there is so much inspiration in the way they cared for the children and cared for each other.
I do think it would be counter-productive for her to be agressively questioned by a reporter acting in mean-spirited style like a prosecuting attorney.
The issue of whether or not James should be considered a hero, in my opinion, should be left to individual opinion.
I was personally struck by what Kati posted in a public forum well before their vacation entrapment. This has been previous posteed here:
“My Husband
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.”
This Father-in-law responds, “What chivalrous behavior. In a bygone era, James surely would have been called Sir and dressed in shining armour. He would have been honored as a knight most worthy of his Lady–I’m not sure what the Korean equivalent would be.”
Kati and James made some decisions that dreadful night that ended up placing them all in serious jepardy. I personally believe both he and Kati dealt with the consequences in heroic fashion. Penelope was strong and supportive. And baby Sabine? Well, she was just a cold and hungry baby girl.
558 – Kati’s Dad, if anyone could say it in a book, it would be Kati. When I read what Kati wrote about James as a husband, it really struck me, too. Not only because of what it said about James but because of what it said about Kati just for saying it. The bit of humor included was just a bonus.
Like most of us here, I’d join you in saying that both James and Kati were indeed heroic, to.
At some point someone (I think Pac) implied Kati owes answers because the media made this a national story. Kati owes the media and the public NOTHING beyond what she chooses to share. Unlike those in Hollywood, she did not willingly choose the intense media scrutiny that befell her. She should do what she feels is best for her and, most especially, her children. The only reason I could possibly think of for her to speak out would be to defend or explain the decisions of that night and to speak for he who can no longer step up to defend himself. The when, and with who of doing that is entirely up to her to choose, if she chooses to do so at all.
Kati’s Dad: I think there is only one, maybe 2, people on this forum who have said she “owes” anything. Don’t take that seriously at all. Any time something is available for public consumption, you get all kinds.
Ultimately, this case got people’s attention for so many different reasons. For me, as a mother of a 15 month old living in San Francisco area, my heart went out to another mother in dire straits. I pictured Kati desperately tryingto keep her little ones alive in the cold. (I remember hoping that she was a nursing mother.) I looked on the internet for more information about the ordeal, found the jamesandkati website and others, and it just went from there–learning more about this very appealing family, the heroic efforts of the SAR, the tragedy of James not making it, the story about the story, it just all snowballed and so here I am almost into the next year still reading.
Kati’s primary concern now is providing for children. I was very impressed with how much she worked to keep their two businesses afloat when got home to San Francisco.
I wanted to write in regard to your curiousity about why
this story has interested and captivated the public so…
I think there are numerous reasons why so many people
were drawn to the story. I know my own, and I have heard
reasons from others here. Many of us have lost loved ones
in traumatic circumstances… Some loved James from his work… Some of us have Korean ties… Some have local ties… Some have precious young children… Some are SAR volunteers… Most all of us care deeply… Many fit more than just one of those descriptions…
But I really think the overall greatest reason had to
do with the pictures of James, Kati, and the girls. You
could tell how happy they were – you could tell truly how much love was there.
There is magic in those pictures… There is their own
unique special magic – that made caring people care more,
and curious people more curious…
The amazing story which unfolded afterwards was another
compelling aspect…
But I live in Portland and I was caught up in profound caring and concern for your daughter’s family, as soon as
I saw those pictures on the news, which was the first night
it was announced that they were missing…
They looked like people I would/could care about. They
looked like people who could be friends of mine…
But mostly it was the undeniable magic of their own
unique happiness and love… It’s transcendent, in
way that makes you want to reach for the stars…
You can see it when you look at those little girls…
And I don’t think you have to worry about the girls
receiving too much media attention in the future – time
moves on, attention will lessen, new compelling stories
will capture the public’s attention.
Even if Kati were to write a book, what the media always
focuses on the most, is a current, unfolding story…
Once these investigations are complete and made known,
I believe that most of the attention will fade quickly,
but those of us who care will do our best to honor their
story, and Kati and James, in our hearts, and by trying
to do something that could really make a difference…
563 – Kati’s Dad, I’m impressed, too! That takes a combination of courage, strength, and probably a bunch of other qualities to jump back in after such an ordeal and take care of business (lame pun intended). I know that Kati said she wasn’t sure she could do it (another comment from Kati on Yelp was posted here on Page Two, comment 1146), but it sounds very much like she can, and I agree that the stores she and James started together are a gift in quite a few ways. Thank you again for being here and sharing your thoughts.
558 – Kati’s Dad, re: what you said about Kati being cross examined, that’s what I was thinking, too. It seems that if a book preceded any interviews, it would be easier to keep the “journalists” from going afield looking for a sensational aspect of the incident. And the book would stand, in the end, as Kati’s account of what happened, period. Thanks for sharing your insights here, I know it must be puzzling, frustrating and very difficult to see so much of your family’s personal life up for discussion.
I agree that if Kati’s chooses to write a book, a lot of
people would be inspired by the details of their story,
and Kati’s words, and would want to read it. And I don’t
think that would bring too much additional media coverage,
because I think most of that is complete.
A book would be good. It would help to support the kids financially, and that’s a good thing also. Some people have surmised that since Mr Kim is involved that no funds are needed by Kati’s kids, I have come to believe that might not be totally true. So I now encourage any funds donated to Kati’s children, or any funds from book etc. for kid’s futures.
572 – And I think I’d skip Nancy Grace, too, though she can be entertaining when she has her sights set on somebody we don’t like (OJ, Scott Peterson, etc.) There must be some objective journalists out there still.
I posted earlier on about retracing their driving choices to get a better understanding of how and why they made the decisions they did and ulimately how they ended up where they were.
Is there anyone out here with specific local knowledge willing to try the exercise and maybe Mapper can take the information and create a map showing the path we think and the assumptions that could have been made a different turn junctions, etc…?
I think if a television interview were ever chosen to
be done, Anne Curry is the most compassionate and
non-invasive interviewer. She really seems to respect
people’s boundaries, unlike some, who just like to go
for any controversy and ratings. Again, though – that’s
not necessary – it would be a personal decision. A book,
if chosen, could say everything she wants to say.
If I may ask Mapper? I’m a map lover. I spend hours looking at maps just for fun. I’m sort of a roadgeek and in a newsgroup related to roads others sat that map companies sometimes strategically place errors on their maps to protect from copyright infringement. If another company, or person, makes a map from theirs, the hidden errors will prove if it is a copy or not. Is this true? If so, does ODOT make their own maps or do they hire a map company to do it? I’d hate to think they would do this in an area like Bear Camp road in future updates. I realize this is not part of what happened with the Kims, but just wanted to know if it is true that companies do that?
glenn – don’tcha know?? 🙂 Good morning…great conversation. Just wanted to say hello and I am still here watching. I have almost had to remove my keyboard from my computer to avoid response at times! My most difficulty comes with my desire to speak more with Dr. Fleming!! Personal closure, I suppose. Anyway, I miss you all!
578 – Glenn, I’m hoping to do just that, retrace the path(s) but not until about August. By then, it might be more difficult to understand markings as the Kim’s were seeing because I do hope that there will be better signs…
579) Anne’s from Ashland, also.
578) That would take a very objective point of view. Interesting tho. Personally I’m quite curious to hear Kati’s story on that subject.
583 – we miss you too, hope all is well. Isn’t Dr. Fleming a class act? This is a terrible hardship for Kati and the kids, but it is consoling knowing there is that caliber of support there.
595- It would be risky with even a 4WD and chains right now, the main road of bear camp is actually closed because of a slide (its and annual closing) However how others get lost and stuck is there is a road that goes AROUND the closure and still sticks ya on all them spur roads.
Late May would be a safe guess…It really depends on the winters we have and how fast the snow melts and what damage has happened to the road during
597 – RRR / Rand is always telling me they want to fix and/or reroute Bear Camp due to the slides but there is no money. Has there been any change on that ? The Peavine / Serpentine (wrong spelling I know) detours are awful.
600- Peavine is still as bad as it has ever been…..Bear Camp’s “slide” that had it closed FOREVER has been fixed and is nice, however they still close it in the winter for “precaution” cause it can always slide in the winter….In a nutshell….NO CHANGE
Lisa RE: blog stats. I should not have written “5000 people” above. The stats for yesterday showed 5459 “views” which probably means “pages viewed”. One person could view several pages or log on many times as many of you appear to be doing, and this would mean fewer total people. I don’t get a “visits” stat from WordPress though I may set that up later.
603 – Lisa, BLM 34-8-36 is not a dead end, and there is more than one way to loop around. Not saying any of the roads would be easy to do that, but it does loop and connect at other points from what I could see.
(600) Paul what about the detours? Do they increase the distance traveled? Have they been upgraded at all with signage? How obvious is it when you end up on the detour?
603 / Lisa: you really should Google map it and zoom in. I was not exaggerating when I say it looks like spagetti. The network of spurs off that road speaks loudly to how and why so many get lost up there. I am sure RRR can address this more knowingly than I, being right at the base of Bear Camp.
609 – I should defer to RRR on your question as this last summer I was not on BC, having departed the Rogue through Powers route North. The detours did increase the distance considerably, but had seemingly been fixed before the Kims headed up BC. The signage is not very good, IMHO, although I did not get lost.
609- Yes the detours increase the milage….No it is not always obvious when you are on a detour sometimes the only difference is paved verse a dirt road, and the signage stinks……Detours in the woods are not marked like detours in the city, sometimes you are luck if you get a sign during the detour usually it is just at major intersections
613 et al // RRR – sorry to pass these queries to you, but you can’t get much closer to BC than you are, and if you ARE Galice, your shuttle drivers are up there a lot and I just assume you know the area far better than I, though I know it pretty well.
618 – I will definitely pay you a visit this summer and identify myself. Even when we strike out on the lottery I pick up cancellations and head down in late summer or fall. A lot of the faces in the resort seem to have changed over the years, so am unsure if it has changed hands or if it is a generational thing. Have been coming there since 1982, when BC was still gravel (egad that was bad).
619- You have to remember at ONE point that road was gated and usually is closed……My opinion and guess would be that it is a road less traveled usually and when closed off if you have snowmobile or some fun winter toy it would be the place to be because you would want untouch less crowded areas. As to how far down they would go I dunno…….When you go out to play like 4 wheeling or snowmobiling how far would you go???
(621) Bob H. has stated over and over again that the road is never gated nor locked and hasn’t been for years…Do you know how long ago it was gated or locked? Bob H. any thoughts?
625- Most of our operations on Bear Camp are looking for overdue people who either used that route to get the coast, or were doing some outdoor activity such as hunting, snowmobiling, 4 wheelling, or those who go out to just play in the snow and wondered to far….I think that really covers most of our missions on there
Maggie RE: Pageviews and refreshes – yes, probably a refresh ads a page view to the stats. Normally “view” means a download of one .htm file but I’m not sure it that is how WordPress is keeping the stats. This page we are on is a single, fairly large htm file.
583 – JoCo, glad you are still here and didn’t gnaw off your fingers trying to keep from posting!! I would have been sitting there muttering to myself as I read, no doubt.
I’m trying to remain optimistic that any government entity or designee in recorded history will have a report completed when projected (I’m not talking about your part, but the reviewers). There are times when I’m working on a project and I want to shake everyone and yell “CAN WE JUST GET ON WITH IT, PLEASE??” It’s better to have a complete report than a hurried one, but I hope it does come on the 5th. If for no other reason, I don’t want to think of you gnawing and muttering while we wait.
627 – Joe, I refresh the page often, or I go to my handy desktop icon for the current page and go in that way. Both would show as traffic, I guess. Knowing how many different people came in would be interesting. Also, time of posts would be nice if it showed with the dates, but I do love your simple, easy to navigate format.
Yep. Actually, its often just cartographers acting alone, that will add little mistakes on purpose. This is their way of “signing” the map since they can’t actually put their name on it, especially if it is a big atlas. They can say, look mom, I made this map and I can prove it….
I dont know if this is as common as it used to be and I didn’t want to bring it up, but almost did just to point out that humans are actually drawing some of those lines by hand, and sometimes throwing in a few surprises too!
As for ODOT, more than likely they have a few people, a collection of GIS and computer science people, probably some with geography/cartography backgrounds like me that do their maps. That big road map has probably seen a few different hands taken to it to make updates and changes. Its possible they have hired consultants to do the maps, but doubtful. I’m sure I could find out!
I just called the Forest Service to ask why the signs on
Bear Camp haven’t been changed even though, as it said
in that local editorial, many locals have been complaining
about them being inadequate warnings for years.
I was told that the two people who are usually in charge
of Public Affairs are on vacation till the 8th. There’s
someone else I could talk to later today, but it sounds
like he may not know as much.
I know that other officials are also looking into the
signage issue, but I thought it might be good for some
additional public inquiry.
Plus I’m just curious! I want to hear the reasons why the
signs haven’t been changed, if they really plan to
change them, and when that would happen.
633- I would say that we are proberly 50/50 for those who get lost from locals to tourist….Those who are 4 wheeling or something of the sort are usualy on skid roads (off the main road) stuck in mud or snow or turned around….Tourist are usually ran out of gas lost and stuck…..
I thought this was worth posting again. Notice Bear Camp Road is not noted as “closed” and Bob H. had asked them why and they responded with something along the lines of…that is a federal road and we can’t say if it is closed or not. (the actual response is on another page of comments here).
This is an example of confusion of government agencies in that area and how that could affect travellers and JoCo SAR (and other county SAR’s in that area).
Also notice, unlike the google maps, you wont see the level of detail on the ODOT maps neccessary to really make a good judgement about that area, in particular, I mean you might not realize your entering the “spaghetti bowl” Paul speaks of.
Again, it is a challenge for ODOT to do this right, so I dont completley fault them, but I still want to point this out.
649- Well of course it is always easier when people are just stuck in snow on a road HOWEVER there is always the element of WHICH road unless they are able to communicate what FS road sign they saw last
I know that is kind of a common sense question, but
I just wanted to get a feel for how difficult and
complicated most other SAR operations are compared
to the Kim case.
652- Each SAR case stands alone there is never the same case twice even if the general info of “Stuck on Bear Camp” is the “mission” there are always TONS of variables for each search, weather, people & resources available, what were the people doing at the time of getting lost, are they wanted people, do they want to be found, how much info we get from dispatch or family members and so on
Do you think that after this, SAR may train in
the drainage at all?
In some ways, this story could contribue to the
general public not going in the drainage, but then
again – they might get curious. I guess you never
know for sure what might happen.
Well, all along I have said Kati owes no one an explanation, so of course I am with you all on that! 🙂
I have to admit I was lurking around on some of the MT boards last night and I did see what I was afraid of, some people outright saying, they thought James estate (how they put it) should be charged for the search.
I find this just disgusting of course, as I have said their was no deception (as in the runaway bride case for example).
People seem to have dropped that nasty line of thinking and for that I am glad, but it does worry me there is that sort of thinking out there, that some might liken an innocent traveller, lost, for reasons most of us out of towners would get lost for (I assume). I mean, it really could happen to any of us, but especially those of us who are travelling in the area. Its hardly fair to compare that to, say, a drunk driver.
Also, I can’t even fathom how hard it was for James and Kati to care for the kids during those days alone in the car, in the cold. I have gotten into some sticky situations but never had to worry about a child, that changes everything! I had to go without food for 3 days once, and once I set my mind to it, and knew in 3 days I would have a meal, I was okay. But, I don’t think you can really say that to a little baby…
Anyway…I have to say, and I hope it’s okay. After reading Kati’s review of her husband. He was a hero…nothing short of a dreamboat I must say!! 🙂 She was right to feel protective of him (“back off ladies!”)
654- I do know that some of our specialty teams are planning to train in the following year in the drainage, they have trained in Taylor Creek which is I believe east of BC which is very much the same terrain as Big Windy.
I believe the story will do two fold…..just as you said people will NOT go into it and yet people will GO into it, just to say it wasen’t that tough what was there problem, and they will either be ok or we will end up going in again.
655 – I should have said that one path is the typically assumed route with the turn onto the BLM, and the other still makes that turn but then travels differently than to end in the same exact location (that’s how I knew the road looped). I mentioned it somewhere around page 2 or 3 and posted a picture. As I said then, I’m in no way even speculating that an alternate route was taken, but I was just curious if there was another way to get there, and there was, at least whenever the satellite picture was taken(in fact there were a few ways), but it is really interesting to actually follow the paths in Google Earth to get a rough idea. I’ll post it tonight.
Glenn, sorry I missed that, still sorta catching up! Looks like Maggie has taken this task. Well, I certainly think its worthwhile to first take the ODOT map, then surmise from that, its all the info you have and figure your about to take the route (get the old imagination going).
Then, take the google stuff, the spaghetti bowl and see how easy it would be to turn off the “route” that is on the ODOT map.
I bet there would be a few places that would show to be highly suspect. (but you already know this I am sure)
I’d like to overlay the ODOT map with some of the census road files or the satellite stuff……but that won’t be possible with my schedule 🙂
I am thinking there is probably a state ArcIMS site where I can get a look at this…will look that up and post later (a website where I can overlay the odot data on satellite stuff)
I say this because I think its important to use the source that they had (odot) with what is (satellite info would be the best way, I think, to see the spur roads, or the census data…from what I have seen so far)
662- mapper, I think your mapping skills are so amazing!
I have never heard so much about it before. But you, like
RRR and so many others, are such a resource here because
of your special knowledge!
Well, I was just like others who have mentioned they are “map nerds” (okay so they didn’t exactly say that) and then I found out its actually a career (I was like…you can major in geography!? But I love geography, that sounds like fun)…so maybe those people that find they love maps might think about putting those skills to work! Majoring in geography is the best way to start (4 year program), and then also pair it with some computer science courses.
Its not always fun or exciting, but its very challenging and its a growing field too. Just thought I would throw that out there if anyone is following along and thinking about the future!
666- With my involvment with SAR I have found many a “NERD” of maps, compass, paper pushing, ect….They are a wealth of knowledge and frankly I HATE MAP & COMPASS so I will leave it up to you all now since you have a love for it 🙂 Don’t get me wrong I can map and compass with the best but I would rather not
haha…yeah, once I met my 12 classmates in undergrad out of 20,000 in the school I realized…well not everyone thinks geography is fun! Were a fun group though!
Mapper, I wish I’d have realized this back in college. I took some geography classes focused mainly on Asia for one of my majors, but this kind of thing seems way more fun to me than what I learned then. I’m *always* looking at maps – can study them for hours for no good reason whether places I’ve been, never been, will visit, have no desire to visit doesn’t matter, still interesting. I think part of it is because I am perpetually lost and just think that if I study and memorize a map I’ll be OK – doesn’t work, but still fun!
In that case Maggie, you should have no regrets. When you have to stare at them all the time at work, your so busy thinking about creating them and how to make them understandable, and focusing on peoples reactions, and then going back to the drawing board to change or refine….you dont spend a lot of time anymore just studying them like a casual observer would, and that is part of the fun!
I wonder if chef’s feel this way about food…God I hope not, note to self…never become chef.
[669] …. Maggie, I just checked in and see your “I’m *always* looking at maps – can study them for hours for no good reason whether places I’ve been, never been, will visit, have no desire to visit doesn’t matter, still interesting.”
Fits me totally! probably many other posters here too.
Since we’re discussing maps, (BTW, thanks mapper!) Both the Rand McNally Road Atlas and the American Map co. atlases show Bear Camp as a scenic route to the coast. They’re not shown as being the same type of road as 42 though.
66o , it might have been in the MT forum, but a local called “Rogue Fly” said the other possible ways to the point they were found would require a 4wd truck. Their car wouldn’t make it that way. He/she sounded quite confident that they went through the fork we all know about now. I think I believe him/her.
I’ve many times taken a road shown on a map as rough, perhaps hazardous, knowing well I was taking some chance. But always glad I that had the opportunity to make up my mind for myself, considering the risks I could envisage at the time, whether or not to take the route.
Another thing that bothered me about the ODOT map, as I have already mentioned they use the color red for very general purposes, and also for warnings. But, notably in the area of Bear Camp, “Scenic”, is spelled out in red letters. So, they are using red letters to say, “hey, come on over and look at this!” and then…there is the warning box I have pointed out…in the same red color with the itty bitty curvy arrow. Now don’t get me started on the pink text in the box…thats just wrong on another level! 🙂
I havn’t looked at the atlases but I will now that you mention it.
If you can see yourself focusing on such minutia you should consider this career!
676 – dkf747, you are probably very right. I know that the alternate route I traced (still making that first veer to the right onto the BLM road instead of continuing on Bear Camp Rd) hits some elevation quite a bit higher than the route we’ve all seen throughout the media, so I, too, think it’s unlikely that it’s the path the Kim’s took. Still, as part of Paul’s “bowl of spaghetti” comparison, it was interesting to see how the roads twist and wind and sometimes connect up with each other and sometimes dead end completely.
RRR I forget if you can answer this type of question, but have you seen or heard any “local” stories that explain why the Carson choppers didn’t fly the BLM road on which they were found early on in the search effort?
I’ve been guessing they were not familiar with the local territory but it seems like they would have asked about and flown the main “mistake roads” up there very early on.
I still don’t understand how long it took for the “local” info from people who know the roads up there, let alone people like Mr. Rachor and Mr. James at Black Bar who have properties up there, to get processed by the early search effort.
During wintery months in SW Oregon it is, apparently, not uncommon at all for people to get stranded on back roads stuck in snow. Why not recognize this phenomena formally and tailor a systematic response to that kind of presumed emergency when in the future it occurs? Using helicopters but if not available then primarily snow cats and snow mobiles. Had this approach been taken at the outset when the Kims were 1st reported lost, James’ death very likely would never have happened.
681 – Hopefully something along those lines will come out of this. I can’t speak to this, perhaps RRR or others with experience can comment, but so many lost stories that I read about in OR are more along the lines of the Mt. Hood and Crater Lake sagas…people on foot in the wilderness. Percentage-wise, it seems like there are far more of those, and perhaps that’s why there is less structure for this type of search ?
680 – yeah, that’s still nagging at me too.
Kip and Paul RE: 681 & 682. Kip I think there is a methodology and it was followed here tho the Govs report should address this very specifically.
I think a key part of SAR is to focus search on the last known point or LKP. I’d suggest that in a case like this, where the people are traveling fast and to a clear destination, that won’t work as well as profiling the person and their possible motivations and likely actions.
Keep in mind that it’s actually unusual to have deaths – usually people are recovered safely. I think I read that in 16 out of 17 Oregon SAR efforts the people are alive.
The Kim search should probably not be taken as a “typical” SAR operation. It was anything but that.
681- I’m not sure – Kip. They might feel like they already
have a systematic approach, but it’s hard to implement
because each situation and resources are unique as RRR
said in (6530. I guess only SAR personnel could try to answer that question.
682- It may be Paul, that the stories more likely to make
the news are those about people who are on foot because those are harder searches that can be more dramatic and
take a long time. I think on foot in the wilderness, it’s
often that difficult ratio of so much space in relation to
1 person. (But in this case it seemed to be more that it
was such challenging terrain.)
679 – I’m thinking I saw a map on another forum where somebody had posed another possible route. It had the Kims going past the right turn, then making a later right turn. I couldn’t make much of it since I don’t know the area.
674 – Kip, Maggie: I love maps, have a bunch of older ones. With all the freeways in So CA, I like to see how the roads used to go, and have found and taken some of the old roads that are still left. It’s sad to find the remnants of old towns or businesses that once were thriving until somebody built the freeway and took away the visitors.
My favorite around here is the old Ridge Route over the mountains between Los Angeles and Bakersfield. Until recently, you could still leave the main roads and find the old road from the early 1900’s and find remnants of once-thriving businesses on the only way over those mountains in those days.
678 I don’t know about a career, I already have one. I do spend a lot of time studying maps. Which reminds me. I lost the link to the ODOT Map, which I did see earlier on. I didn’t like that map much either, at least for the SW Oregon area. Going to have to look for the link now.
My name Conan. I’m cousin of Ahnold (Ah-nold). Cousin Ahnold told me in hospital he found your blog. He laughed and pointed at deez blog conversation and said:
Deez guys all girlie-men. Dumkopf Glenn is girlie-man. Dumkopf mapper is girlie-man. Don’t know Nord from South. In Caleefornia we have CALTRANS, no maps needed. Ten CALTRANS guys work roads. One guy works, nine drink coffee. Same like you guys, you all girlie-men. I like better hot Latino blood. I like hot, no ice, no snow, no dumkopfs.
I agree Joe…the profiling needs to happen…either by strangers over the internet, or by the detectives working with SAR or the sheriff,or someone named John Ranchor…someone needs to try to understand the motiviations of the person lost and try to understand what they were trying to do, and where they might have gone wrong.
Unfortunatley its protocols that might keep this sort of common sense from working. Which I believe is why a whole lot of us are here talking, we recognize this. And as RRR has mentioned, and I have mentioned…government workers have to worry about stepping on toes, etc, politics.
We are free from that here. I hope this sort of profiling becomes more prevalent in the protocols…but I wonder how much of that is actually happening, and at what level…
lol…Joe, you have attracted some intresting attention, must be getting popular.
Madeleine that is SO interesting! I like that kind of stuff too. I must say, I drove in L.A for the first time last year, in a rental car no less, and had to find my way from the airport to Victorville where I am working on a side project. I, seriously…cannot believe the maze of freeways, it just boggles my mind!
683- It almost sounds like they had never really had to do this kind of search before, and therefore they weren’t prepared for it with enough personnel who were qualified to go into the canyon, and also a really well thought-out strategy, for truly covering enough ground in the canyon in a very short amount of time.
(688)
Ihr schrecklicher Gebrauch von der deutschen sprache ist eine beleidigung zu denen des deutschen erbes. Conan und Arnold würden nicht thre meinungen teilen. Gehen sie bitte weg!
692 – Would be interesting to hear from RRR on this question. Some potential mitigating factors: 1. the drainage became increasingly steep and treacherous, injuries to searchers become a potential complication. 2. they had to be sure, as they descended, that he had not left the canyon. Enough ground in a very short amount of time may not have mattered, he may have already expired as they entered the drainage. Finding the car a few days earlier surely would have made the difference though.
691 – Mapper – A local fellow took it upon himself to “save” the old Ridge Route, and over the course of several years, had it designated a historic road, no easy feat. They GPS’d it, cleared the rocks, and now all repairs must be done to the code that was in effect in the early 1900’s, nice thick cement rather than blow and go stuff like they do today. Several gov’t agencies were or still are arguing over who should be maintaining it, and some slides closed it a year or so back. There have been TV shows, web sites and a great book about it, and it’s really fun to see the ruins up there. Uh-oh, I’d better get back to the topic…
I found the ODOT site and was browsing the maps and came acroos the Josephine County maps. It’s pretty interesting to me how they show the fork and the way they name the road that the Kims are assumed to have used. I’m kind of changing my understanding of how they ended up going that way and choosing at the various forks in the road which one to take. It’s still not that clear but that map shows the logging road in a different way than the way Google maps shows it.
A link: http://egov.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/CountyMaps.shtml
701. Darn, I am on my work computer, having trouble viewing pdf’s so I can’t look at it. But that is an important point though, how differently things are portrayed on different maps.
700. Thats really interesting. I once tried to take old rt. 66 all the way from Chicago, at least the parts that are still drivable and not interstate. Oh, come on, this is on topic in my opinion! I knew if I said something yesterday I would get it! I can’t really explain what I was getting at. If we posted about this 100 times I might think it was a bit much…come on you know what I mean!
Well, I’m back home and have the Google Earth file where I traced the likely route (and the unlikely one). Turns out my webhost has some issue with the .kmz file type until I have them “allow” it (and I doubt I’ll hear back over the holiday weekend), so I don’t really have a place to post it (unless I put it on Google Earth, but I didn’t really want to do that). For now, if anyone wants it, you can email me at:
phoebe1dawn-duckblogfolks at yahoo.com
Yes, this is a “disposable” email address just for here – never know who is reading, right? 😉
(706) you need t-soft…if will solve of all your international needs…
What part didn’t you understand?
Basically told him his use of the german langauge is an insult and that Arnold and Conan would not agree with his opinion of the people here and he basically could go away now.
704 – Mapper – No, I meant that I will gladly go off on a dissertation about old roads at the slightest provocation and get busted for inciting thread drift (better than thread hijacking, I guess).
707. 708. hahaha. I can’t concentrate now. I’ll be back later. I’m going to get in trouble now too cause all I can think about is…does arnold really have a brother named conan?
I told my wife Sandy about my comments to this group regarding our decision not to go Oregon immediately on hearing the news that our family was lost. She personally was doing the vast majority of the phone calls so she knows best. She reminded me that one of the Oregon officials in charge encourged us not to join in. I’m sure we would have gone had we been encouraged otherwise. I did have a brief conversation with James’ Dad regarding his decision to go up and to be involved early on.
I don’t mind stating some of the facts of the case as they relate to my personal involvement. I thought it was most pathetic that first afternoon and evening seeing and listening in to Sandy on the telephone all evening calling in desperation to area officials, police stations, motels then even to auto repair shops searching for evidence of the children. Seeing a tender loving Mother/Grandmother in that kind of desperation was agonizing for me. Personally, I just felt numb and didn’t know how to react other than to provide close support to Sandy. I tried to prepare myself for the worst news possible. The kids had been missing a full 5 days when I finally received the news of their disappearance. I was on my way to lunch with one of my partners when I received the call from San Francisco notifying me just as I pulle up the restaurant parking lot. I turned to Lara and said, “I’m sorry I don’t think I can eat now, my kids are missing.” I dropped her at the hospital and drove immediately to Sandy’s school and asked the prinicipal to call her out of the classroom. When she asked to talk with me immediately per phone, I had to tell her. She could barely walk unsupported and neither of us could restrain our tears of worry. We did not eat for two days. It just felt wrong knowing that our San Francisco was lost, and possibly starving. One friend and my son finally persuaded us to eat by telling us how they had prepared soemthing special on our behalf. If Kati does go the book route, perhaps she will want to review these events with us.
On a lighter note I want to tell everyone that one of James and Kati’s shops was named in honor of Penelope’s first word, “Doe.” It meant, ball, cloud, dog, balloon, most anything. Yes, they were a very loving group.
oh…710. I definitley think, that I have read the Kim’s were using the state issued ODOT map, and that has been linked here several times. I linked it on the last page somewhere around the 470’s (I think it was the last page).
I think its very important to keep that in mind when considering what they might have done. has anyone heard if they had any other map?
697- But the main point is “Enough ground in a very short
amount of time” does matter because we are not sure when he passed. You know it would matter to you, if it was a loved one of yours.
And in general, it always matters if you are doing an SAR where you are trying save someone’s life.
“Enough ground in a very short amount of time”, always matters.
Unless it is beyond any possibility that someone could be
alive, SAR operations should always be conducted as rescue efforts and not recovery efforts.
Of course, the beginning was very important too – but so
was the ground search!
703 tHAT’S ONE OF the things that bothered me, and I posted ab out it over at MT. Looking at Google maps it seems that there are many forks between THE FORK and where they were found. I could not comprehend how they got where they were from there by looking at the Google map. It didn’t make sense. I could see on Google that 34-8-36 went all the way to where they were found. Actually, they were found at the end of it, where it intersects with another road. However, Google maps shows a lot places where they could have chosen another route (forks) but somehow always chose the 34-8-36 route. I’ve been wondering about it for weeks. Then I decide to pull up the county map and it is drawn differently. I see 34-8-36 labeled as Galice Creek rd. from Galice all the way to THE FORK and even after it. The way the map is drawn seems to help me see a little clearer how they could have ended up there, where they were found. I’m also now reminded that James said he was going to walk Galice Creek and it’s interesting that the road is named Galice Creek rd on the map. This gives me a different perspective than I had using Google Earth or maps. I don’t think it is a new angle or anything.
It is interesting that the county map does not show as many logging roads as Googllle does, but I have no idea. Just my thoughts.,
712 – Kati’s Dad, I’m so glad that you are here. Thank you for sharing that with us. What an agonizing time it must have been – I can’t imagine. I still think that you were right where you needed to be by not traveling to Oregon and staying put in a familiar environment instead of dealing with everything and then pacing unfamiliar floors.
Kati’s Dad – thanks so much for the many thoughtful comments you’ve made over the past few days. What a roller coaster of emotions it must have been for you over the past several weeks.
725 – OK, now *that* is the ODOT map that I have. I did notice that on the safety information there they have plenty of information, but absolutely nothing about being careful of things like logging roads. Might not be a bad idea.
715 – Joe, maybe I will go ahead and put it on Google Earth tonight. I’ll need to create an account and all of that. I just wasn’t sure about putting it out there so publicly with that alternate route traced and give the wrong idea and confuse someone…
733 – Pretty straight-forward to get from the 5 to the Bear Camp turn off, the critical element is the BLM fork, but it’s so poorly signed. I still wonder if they did not end up on that fork straightaway as others have theorized.
Thank you so much for telling us about your experience and perspective in the story. It gives it so much additional
richness and depth…
I was wondering why they named the store ‘Doe’. I love
does, and have been really close to some (eating apples out of my hand!)outside of Eugene. I didn’t know if Kati’s time there had anything to do with it. But it is even more
special that it was Penelope’s first and favorite, word!
It was very quiet here today without you. I think everyone
had gotten spoiled by your special presence, and had missed
you!
****************
Now- I am going to discuss my frustrations with the ground
search, so you may want to skip this part.
692- Paul, and you know I mean no personal issues here, but
these are all very important issues to me. Yes, they kept
saying they weren’t sending more personnel in the canyon
because it was potentially dangerous. But that in itself
is an important SAR issue: when is it too dangerous for
SAR personnel to search and rescue?
I could understand why on Mt. Hood during all the storms,
etc.
But if James could do it in his condition, I think more SAR could have been able to do it.
It wasn’t easy to be sure, it wasn’t ‘a road’.
But there’s just no denying that if James was able to
make that much progress without serious injury other than
the exposure and hypothermia – that there are serious
questions about progress in the canyon.
(734) (736) I thought I saw a photo of the fork…or it was part of a video (maybe CNN) and I seem to remember that the route left had a sign warning of snow, and in the middle a sign that said Oregon Coast…does anyone remember that and is that accurate for that fork?
(735) Lisa…yes and no regarding the progress. I can’t speak to why they didn’t drop small teams along the creek…however a grid search is just that…a methodological and somewhat slow process.
Remember James was focused on getting to help and he could have thought just around the bend of this creek has got to be that town/help.
The search team had to track and follow and at times when they lost his trail had to stop, etc…and also at any time he could have tried to get out of the creek and they had to look at that as well.
He also could have been injured and sought shelter under a fallen tree, a cave etc…Searching for someone who is injured and under a tree is just like hide and seek. The worst thing a searcher wants to do is realize they walked right past where the missing person is.
They also couldn’t have been trekking through the creek recklessly like James did…
Glenn RE: Embedding pix. Nope, WordPress does not allow that in comments, only in the posts. *However* you could post it elsewhere and link to the URL in your comment.
742- glenn – 2 teams – ‘slow deliberate search team’
and ‘fast cover ground team’.
It’s just common sense if you’re trying to save someone’s
life to have both! Especially in the cold! I sounds like
they didn’t have enough of both! Not when they were clearing
roads and not when they were in the canyon.
Barnadad said they’re called ‘deliberate’ searches and
‘hasty’ searches. And he’s also had military experience.
Well, pac never answered my specific questions, so I certainly hope Kati nor her father feel obligated to answer his.
I did find out a few itneresting tidbits about pac last night while reading up a little on the MT forums.
Hes not from the Pacific Northwest orginially
He lives in Seattle, far from the area in question
He thinks the term hero is unique and specific to men who have served in the armed forces, and men who have not made mistakes, mistakes preclude someone from being a hero.
But the rest is a mystery. Maybe he will finally answer my questions, but I wont hold my breath.
688/714 – Conan, Sie versuchen stark, aber Sie sind nicht lustig und nicht, störend genug, um irritierend zu sein. Jetzt seien Sie ein guter Junge und gehen Sie Spiel in der Straße.
I doubt he speaks German of any kind, just has a very bad phony German accent.
(748) Thanks Maggie…I have seen a photo of a different spot or that spot further back on the road. It actually showed the fork. Does anyone have that one?
I feel like I am having a weird dream, where everyone I know speaks (and types) German and they never told me before. Gayle’s even got the weird B. I took German too, I dont even remember what its called.
Good picture Maggie. It shows how “near” the lodge would have appeared at that turnoff. (TuTuTun, the lodge they were heading for, via the Lobster Creek bridge to North Bank Road, is about 5-10 miles closer than Gold Beach)
A few days ago somebody suggested that commercials showing 4WD cars being able to go “everywhere” were partly to blame. I thought that was kind of a stretch at the time but perhaps it really did factor in here – this was a vehicle that was supposed to handle winter driving without trouble. I wonder if the decision to drive on was based partly on confidence in their car.
(769) I think these photos are important in understanding. The second photo Maggie put up is closer to what I was looking for…but not so close to ground (looking up). Also like to see how the road actually splits.
769 – Joe, yes, so true about the 4WD false sense of security. I hate to say it, but I drove my Subaru (actually a twin of the Kim’s Saab) on some roads that it probably didn’t belong on a few summers back thinking AWD meant all would be dandy. Now I don’t think I’d chance it. Thank goodness it was summer.
735/Lisa – I think you were referencing my 697…and no, I don’t take it personally…it’s one of those mutual – but respectful – differences of opinion. I wasn’t there so I can’t know with any more certainty than you, I just have this nagging suspicion that there was a lot more to slogging down that canyon than we realize, which is why I would welcome comments from RRR on this. We’ve seen how the term “clearing a road” could have more implications/complications than we all at first thought. I’ve more issues around the questions surrounding the length of time it took to find the car than around the time it took to work down the canyon. Who knows, when the findings of the investigations come out maybe we’re both right.
(769) Saab’s used to have a strong reputation for bad winter weather driving…equipped with their gislaved (sp?) tires, etc…however their vehicle was a re-badged Subaru.
It seems to me so much common sense was lacking in the Kim search operation — eg…
– the painfully slow ultimately ineffective *protocol* road searches. It may have been more useful if the SAR people buzzed loudly a bunch of power saws together. Sound can travel long distance on a still wintery night. If heard, would have given the Kims hope.
– John Rachor found the female Kims and HE directed the SAR to them. Then the SAR futilely attempted to follow James’ path down the drainage. James at this point had a 3 day head start. It seems fairly obvious that if he were still alive (which I doubt very much, given the preceding frigid nights, his already weakened condition, and the likelihood he was soaking wet) …he could have, likely would have covered a lot of ground and it would make sense to try to intersect his probable path at multiple points down the drainage, as damn fast as possible, by whatever means available & most suited. But no, as the official spokesman and presumably the man in charge complained at a press conference, they just “couldn’t catch up” ..duh
For whatever reason, I have not been able to create a new account on Google Earth Community tonight – every user name is taken, even one involving my cat’s name and something mushy, so I think it’s broke… I’ll keep working on it or come up with another plan. It really is interesting to “ride along” to get an idea.
Hey Mapper- Would it help in your mapping process if we sent SAR members out in the field and GPS the spagetti roads, who would we give that info to so we could confirm the right mapping?? Do you think it would be something worth a training mission- JoCoSAR is asking.
Boy, go away for a minute and you miss a lot of fireworks. I never even saw what P was deleted for, but based on his previous posts I could guess. THANK YOU JOE !!
RRR
I don’t know about a training mission. But if you keep maps in house, your gis person could then add the gps’d logging roads to the maps you have. I think that would be quite helpful yes, if you dont already have a good map of them. If you cant get something reliable from the usfs, blm, or odot, I think this would be a good investment.
Your gis person could just create the roads (from the gpsd files) and overlay them on whatever maps you currently use.
Kip the “couldn’t catch up” comment by Anderson really struck me at the time as well, and I’m guessing (uneducated and wildly) they will conclude that there should have been teams dropped lower in the canyon immediately rather than the laborious “man tracking” that seemed to move so slowly.
I do NOT think this would have saved James Kim because it seems very unlikely he was alive when the search began, but they did not know that at the time. I get the idea they thought they’d catch up to him within hours, dead or alive, and this led to the decision to take less risks dropping SAR people into a dangerous canyon.
(801) Joe you also were pushing for SAR to look further up the creek…the whole time! Not only the locals out there on the ground…but you here on the blog had key information for them.
800 – if they gave you something understandable and reliable it might not be worth the time if joco doesn’t have money to be out gps’ing. But, if its a volunteer thing, it might really be good to have your own, independntly maintained data source for those logging roads, that way your gis person can get more famliar with working with them, and incorporating them into all of your in-house maps. This could really help in many ways that will become apparent over time.
thanks for the update on saddam glenn. I thought it was still a couple of hours away….that whole thing is just scary. I do wish they didn’t do hangings still….
807- At this point I believe that we are already using our GIS person and putting all that info together for further use…..Just and FYI a fellow SAR member of a neighboring county stopped at the Willsonville Chamber of Commerece this week and asked for a scenic route to the coast from their and they gave him the same map that was giving to the kims, with BC highlighted
But they were too far ahead – there was too much uncovered
space inbetween.
Was there a strategy? And why all that uncovered area
if as has been suggested, smaller teams could have been
dropped in by helicopter and covered all the ground on Tuesday.
812 – is it still my understanding that this element is unclear ?…that the chamber employee swears they stopped and Kati says they did not ?? I thought I saw something in a subsequent press item where the chamber stop was retracted, that it was bad information. It’s an important element, just looking for clarification.
812, yes I was just thinking also, USFS could maybe even provide the data to your gis person if you do not already have it…but I would not discourage gps’ing the logging roads at all, but you would have to do it often enough (if they change periodically) so that the data is always up to date, if your gis person will be using them in the maps (as I am sure you know this!)
We still understand the same however we have not seen the retracted statment. The point of me stating it is that they are still directing people that way they haven’t learned their lesson
Not sure how to format a link here, but this goes to the video of the turnoff, which I look at from time to time as a point of reference. Imagine this at night, in worsening weather.
RRR (819) that’s really something about the Wilsonville map. Even if the Kim’s didn’t get that bad recommendation it shows how easy it is for people out of the area to think that’s a viable route to the coast.
Glenn I think you may be giving me too much credit for pinpointing James location early on. The Big Windy reports were coming in from SAR by the time I was talking about that as the place, though I remain confused why it was assumed he did not make it as far as he did or even farther down the canyon and out along the Rogue.
No there is no error, we are again in the same room on two computers, they posted some links of the fork in the road and I can see it on their computer as being posted on here with number 824 and 827 yet on my screen they are not posted any suggestions??
Sorry JoCoSAR – I didn’t realize it but you went into moderation due to the links and I just approved those two comments which will appear ABOVE in sequence.
Being in the same room, on the same internet connection, we have often gotten the response that we are typing too fast…that is always funny! We have been competing to click the “submit comment” first!
Wednesday 11/15/2006, by AJ Flores and Clyde Davidson.
Bear Camp Warning Signs (MAYBE BLOCKED BY SNOW DRIFTS) are now all in
place at 4 locations to warn the public heading to Agnes/GoldBeach.
County Road #2400/Merlin Galice Rd. off I-5 ramp exit 61: @MP 0.39 (Maybe
Blocked 33 miles ahead) near Rays Market,
@MP 5.00 (Maybe Blocked 28 miles ahead).
Galice Access Road (BLM 34-8-36), @ MP 2.1 (Maybe Blocked 10 miles ahead)
also installed on post above sign a Diamond shape Orange Reflective plaque
to help attract the publics attention.
BLM Road 34-8-36 turns into Road #23 Bear Camp. @MP 12.35 (Maybe Blocked 6
miles ahead) also installed on post above sign a Diamond shape Orange
Reflective plaque.
We also have photo’s that will be down loaded and filed for our
documentation and hard copy as well.
844 – Joe, what does it mean when I get a message saying “You are Posting Too Fast – Slow Down”. Too many messages, or literally typing too quickly? Hitting send too fast?
You are sure right about JoCo and R3 getting the joint jumping…
655, 660, 705, 730 and more – I’ve *finally* got this posted somewhere. This is the Kim’s likely path that I traced out as well as a very unlikely alternate route. I’ve included the other points widely seen on internet pictures. You will need to download Google Earth in order to use it (which I’ll post next since there is a link limit that Joe just explained).
Maggie, did you take into consideration that they may have taken the Peavine detour? I still think that needs to be considered. That is the first sign to the coast after you turn right off of Merlin Galice Rd….many more miles before that road hits the “Bear Camp Road.” I just a few days ago realized that the 34-8-36 road is actually the same as the Bear Camp Road off of Galice Creek..
Ok so I am just enough of a computer geek to get myself in trouble how does this google earth thing work…I downloaded so if I click on a link you put up it will automaticly work??
861 – River, once you install Google Earth and go to my link, click on the one to see it in Google Earth (not map), and it should open. Then you can zoom in and almost be on the road, roughly…
Still reading back about 50 posts to catch up. You all have been busy.
Maggie that’s GREAT work on the layout. Thanks for posting that and pinpointing things!
RRR – you should just get to click on through to load the mapping file which has a kkz extension. You may get connection errors if there is a firewall but often can ignore those and load the maps.
875-it’s not bad anymore..just longer. They fixed it some time ago when they closed Bear Camp due to slide. That’s why I asked about dates of ariel photos…I have our GIS photos at my work office, those photos were just taken last year…would be very interesting..wish I had them here!!!
874 – have you checked under your lamp shades ?…noticed a clicking sound on your phone line ?…do items in your house seem like they’ve been moved around ?…yeah, I thought so. 🙂
Sheesh, you all are chatty 😉 I’m curious enough now that when you all go to bed, I’ll do the Peavine and repost it with that (exhausted, but drinking coffee and likely up for many more hours). Joe, thank you for the compliment; it was fun, and I was kind of proud of myself having never done anything like that before. Anyone who hasn’t tried it, it’s actually very easy – give it a whirl!
Glenn, I can say only a few things in German, which we will not discuss here 🙂 For Japanese, I’m your girl (or girl/boy if I’m not identifying myself as either).
812+ – It does concern me that Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce would actually direct anyone over Bear Camp Road, especially at this time of year and just after this tragedy. Unbelievable.
In the time it took me to type this, I bet there will be 20 more messages (or more).
888 – Aw, shucks. The alternate route that I traced, is not the Peavine route, is it (don’t have it up right now)? Are you saying you think it was Peavine or you think it was the one I randomly drew as my alternate route?
889 – Maggie – I share your frustration…these folks all took the Evelyn Wood typing correspondence course. Any time I type anything over a sentence I come back on 30 posts from where I left. Simply amazing about the Chamber given all the publicity.
Maggie – what I am saying is that I think that the most logical route to where they ended up is this:
Galice Cr. to Peavine Rd to Bear Camp Rd to 34-8-36 turnoff all the to the near end. The shortcut I don’t think that they took is the one that you highlighted on your google map..make sense?
the fact that James was presumably backtracking the route he had driven in would indicate the green line road was the one they had used to enter…. would it not?
it won’t show our line on the map…I don’t think that you personally will be able to do it without our map or not having been up there…but you are smart….we are trying to do it too…
I’ll be awake Maggie! hahaha. I’m still working or I would have checked out your stuff already. I’ve taken my flexible office hours a little too seriously this week. My schedule is so messed up!
I’m sure most of you know, but just in case… You can zoom in very, very close in Google maps and even tilt the view by holding down the middle mouse roller key thingy (gosh, I’m tired – can’t remember what that’s called). Anyway, it almost brings you there – though clearly not as dramatically as the terrain really seems to be.
919 – Kip/JoCo – I think Kip was asking whether the green path I drew was how the Kim’s drove in, and was thinking that if so, it would have been the same one that James first walked down heading away from the car – right?
GOLD BEACH, OR–Peavine/Serpentine Springs route to Gold Beach and the coast will be closed Nov. 1st for reconstruction. The BLM has awarded the Peavine/Serpentine Springs Road Reconstruction & Surfacing contract to Roy Garren Construction. Construction staking began on Oct. 20th and is expected to be complete by Nov. 3rd. Brush removal/clearing and grubbing will begin on Nov. 1st . Route will be closed from Nov. 1st until
reconstruction is complete around the 1st of June.
Traffic will be routed over Forest Service Road # 25, the Briggs Valley road up Taylor Creek to FSR 2510. Briggs Valley road will accommodate two way traffic for all users except logging traffic. The detour will then proceed along the 2510 road to FSR # 2402, the Chrome Ridge road, then along the Chrome Ridge road to BLM route 35-9-1.4, at Hanson Saddle. The detour will then proceed along road 35-9-1.4 to BLM route 34-8-36, end of detour. These roads are single lane with turnouts and will have two-way
traffic. Logging traffic coming from road 35-9-1.4 will be routed down Chrome Ridge Road (FS 2402). Chrome Ridge Road will accommodate “one way traffic only” from the junction of roads FS 2402 & 35-9-1.4 to road 34-8-36
on Galice Creek. Public one way traffic will also be allowed along this section of the Chrome Ridge road.
The BLM is pursuing to repair the Galice Access slide and remains optimistic that the repair can be completed in 2005. The BLM’s highest priority remains opening a safe, cost-effective and reliable route to Agness and the coast.
923 – JoCo, I’m glad you can speak (or are speaking if you can’t, whichever). Do you think that the route outlined above is the one I should try tracing (sounds like Paul’s spaghetti already)?
Re-reading 848 you have to wonder…just how strong do the new signs need to be ? 4 very large signs in neon yellow placed at regular intervals seemingly routinely get ignored. I initially thought a skull and cross bones was sarcasm or at the least tasteless overkill. Maybe not. I have trouble faulting BLM if they felt that was a pretty thorough job of signage.
Ok Maggie I got the dang line to draw how do I Get it do go without stopping each time I stop I have to start over a new line I can’t keep tracing!!! I know now what I HATE MAPPING ggggggrrrr that JoCoSAR person
936 – Basically, you just click points, and it will draw a line. Does that help?
937 – Mapper will always be the Mapper(ette). I’m just drawing stuff on maplike stuff already done. If I actually had to draw anything for real, it would be very scary. My maps are kind of like stick people maps.
we just had a horrible thing happen with our joe duck site. both of us were locked out…everytime we tried to get here, it said page not found…there were some upset folks in this room…and some horrible things said!!! We though maybe something happened to Joe’s site…what a tragedy!! We would all get sleep!!
OK, I found how Peavine all connects and will start working on it. Question: Following Galice Road, there are two ways to get onto Peavine. There is a left onto BLM 34-8-36 that then meets 35-8-2 that then meets Peavine. OR going past that first left, if you keep going, there is another road to the left that doesn’t show a name but clearly becomes Peavine shortly. Which one is the likely way of getting onto Peavine?
Paul re:overload due to traffic – I don’t think so because this is hosted on a very robust platform at WordPress. Traffic was higher back during the search though it’s been going up again over the past few days.
959 – ditto, but mine is otherwise starting to really wonder if she needs to stage an intervention of some sort…some variation of 12 steps to Joe Duck independence.
Glenn – I know I said I wasn’t gonna respond, but anytime you are ready, you come here to GP and we will personally drive your happy ass up that mountain and show you ourselves!!!!!!!!
975 – Glenn, did you ever see Thelma and Louise ?…I think JoCo & RRR could be the Thelma & Louise of Bear Camp Rd., you might want to think long and hard about that invitation.
(980) point is…looking at a hybrid sat image like this in conjunction with edge wireless data, your personal knowledge, etc…it could be helpful – I am asking because I don’t know…but this is kind of seeing the forest and not just the trees…down in the thick of it looking at USDA maps might not give this perspective.
712-Kati’s Dad: thanks for sharing more. I imagine as the days go by there must be an overwhelming need to share some of what has happened. Doing so in a somewhat anon (albeit public) place can be therapeutic. I think it speaks a lot that you’ve chosen Joe’s forum as a place where you can put some things down in writing. Most of us are here for the same reason–it seemed a rational and intelligent place to be.
(With some exceptions but those seem to be taking care of themselves.)
glenn – I still think that you are putting way too much weight on that cell phone map…really, I promise to explain soon. I have not seen yet how this particular “exercise” would have helped at all during the search. It is fun to play with right now, but honestly, all kidding aside, our GIS did much better than this. Please believe me until I can explain the cell phone map better!
(982) early on when you first started breaking ur rules and posting here…didn’t you make the comment the JoCo couldn’t reposition sats, etc…
I also get the feeling that this is the first time you have used this Sat technology…correct me if I am wrong.
Point is half the internet is using this stuff and a lot of good ideas on where to search, etc…came from people visualizing this area by looking at these hybrid images.
This approach is SOP for military.
Just wondering if you think this could help with the big picture of things…it is interactive…you can mash it up…make custom views…have maps that just show what you want so you can focus on it.
I would think all of this could be very valuable in the process…and guess what a bunch of volunteers could do this grunt work for you with input from you.
991 Yes, LOTS of dead ends though where I ended was at the turn off to bear camp. I was tired of push pins by then and didn’t finish the part that you had already done in green. Someone smarter than I could possibly combine the two. . . . What a long and frustrating route that must have been in the dark, snow and cold. Scenic route my #$%&* (and Glenn I didn’t even have to use an interpretor software for that one)
993 – Basically, you will want to go back to Google Earth, go into the Community section, create an account, and then post it somewhere. It will let you describe it and “attach” the Google Earth file that you saved. Does that help?
(996) While your thinking…think about having that capability on the fly while deployed…yes even in the wilderness and it might happen if those towers go up.
Ok, so as i hear you, you think that during an active search, we could have like one volunteer dedicated to interacting with people on the internet via virtual maps? Then using that interactive information as “leads?” Is that what you are saying?
(996) also how valuable would a “think out loud” secure forum be where all kinds of SAR professionals from around the world can listen and respond to stuff being bounced off the wall?
as for the “on the fly” part..you mean something like a mobile data terminal with an edge cell card for internet connection in the field (that would only work where there is a signal of course)?
1000! Again!? I’m going to wait until late tonight or tomorrow to put up the new page – it should take a lot more comments and I don’t want to break things up any more than is needed.
(1003) well if they piggyback or just deploy WiMax on the towers…you would have full wifi out there and fast wifi.
Tablets, umpc’s…
I also think it would be invaluable as a platform to collect details to fill in the holes during the immediate review. More details collected incrementally during process and less forgot.
1002 – I need to give that some real thought before I give you a real answer…I have an opinion on it, but not sure how to put it in words quite yet…keep suggestions coming though…I am trying to sort out how to verify “professionals” and not quacks, I am also thinking of how much time would be used chasing crazy ideas, or how to share critical investigative clues that we can’t release to the public…things like that…working it out in my brain!
(1003) I could even see as part of the roll up for each day (even in the field) each searcher could post to a secure mini-blog, even with images from search their thoughts on the day…max 15 minutes…blast out their info, intell…then they go to bed…and/or people then respond, challenge, discuss the information and someone else collects all the gems of data from all the discussions and all the searchers and you start to paint a picture of information.
The cool part is it all happening real/time and strategy can be adjusted in a near real/time manner. You would have the coordinates to feed FLIR, SATS whatever you needed and you would collect even more info.
That is setting operational tempo. SAR has one luxury that a victim doesn’t…SAR can make GOOD decisions with GOOD information – the victim in most cases can’t. SAR needs to make that its advantage.
one major problem that I see, ok two…SAR has one computer, most of our SAR folks are not entirely computer literate, and the biggest of all…most searches start with the possibility of criminal element. I just don’t see how we could possibly share all of that real time and not compromise something…still thinking!!
Sheesh, it’s like a maze to connect up with no dead ends. Anyway, very crude right now, but I’ve added Peavine if our SAR folks say it’s correct?? If you scroll way in, there are many other options off of this, too, but most don’t get you there.
(1011) One of the issues of information control is you are forcing a least common denominator approach. Of course I am not suggesting all of this information just be free flowing like here…the press would have a field day and so would lawyers.
The model I have been playing with…is one where people prove themselves either through certification, and actual results. Also not one piece of analysis would ever be done by just one person – it would be given out to multiple people and the results combined. Over time participants would have a rating and expertise categorization, etc…
So I know there are a ton of obstacles but think of the power this type of stuff brings, confidence, and man it could be a real positive thing for SAR feet on the ground to see how their efforts are paying off.
In the end the victims win…more will be found sooner. Dead or alive…it matters that they are found.
(1014) criminal is a different ballgame…but I fully understand.
Key thing about this – this is something that can attract large corporate sponsors. Most visionaries will see this as a no-brainer. I firmly believe information could be a key element in maximizing SAR’s advantage of being able to make more GOOD decisions then they victims can.
I am following you Glenn, it sounds like cool stuff..sounds like more management time and less time in the field too…but, if it was to work, less time in the field may be needed if we are in the right place…right?
Is there a model of this somewhere? any other discipline?
Oregon State SAR has enough trouble just putting together a State resource list…this all seems so “forward” in such a prehistoric society such as SAR! It seems as though many SAR communities are still trying to evolve from good ole boy 4×4 clubs full of families of volunteers. Some counties only have 14 search volunteers…period. How do we balance?
That is Peavine detour…mostly paved now since that long obscure post I did earlier about paving…that’s the route I personally think that they took…of course, without the information that they had been up there before…
GREAT! Thanks so much, and a wonderful job you did!! I’m looking at these glorified goat trails and thinking if you didn’t have a compass, how could you even have a clue which way you were headed. Naturally the days in the car would allow orientation through the sunrise / sunset – but before that when it was cloudy / snowing etc. OMG.
Congrats JoCo and RRR – you qualify for a new medal or something!!
It will be interesting when the time is appropriate to learn how this was discovered.
Thanks so much for all your contributions, it really is great having you here.
JoCo has a GIS already, in my opinion, its really not SAR’s job to be doing the maps in the field. I think its more about GIS communicating more directly with SAR magagment, and the protocol including them more in the process.
Many counties and municipalities already have something like this in place. (gis in the field)
Maybe I misread something, just got home, just catching up. dont know if I will quite tonight though.
1022 / 1028 – WOW! Now that is quite the trek. I can’t follow the thinking of that very sharp hairpin getting onto it instead of continuing straight, but other than that, once on it, it would make sense.
(1021) Isn’t that always the $64k question. We need to build a model for this. I need a lot more information to put something together…which I plan on visiting JoCo to get that!
Once we have a model I am sure a few of involved can scrape some hardward together for you guys to try some of this out. We all have to realize it is going to experimental (maybe we just use on the criminals first – LOL – just kidding). and it will most likely be wrong in the beginning.
So a parallel effort will need to be employed in the early days of this. But I think this could get legs…
If we show success then there are some very important people that need to see this and we can then scale and make a difference.
So this is a start and I am sure after a few thousand more posts we will come up with something.
JoCoSAR…remember this…it is always easier to say – we can’t do that because of this, etc…do you guys take that attitude when you are searching for someone? So let’s figure it out and get past those obstacles…there are lives to be saved.
PS – When someone tells me I can’t do something…impossible never happen…that is when I get excited and I know I am on the right track.
(1029) I think the issue with GIS is they don’t get their hands dirty…they need to be responsive to specifics happening and being gathered in the field. They need to produce mapping reliefs in an interactive more real time manner than they do today.
When you are driving on it, the intersections are very obvious. Most other roadways have gates on that particular route…they made that route better when they closed bear camp road due to the slide. these photos must have been before that. I can’t see any burned areas from the biscuit fire in the area either…which would mean that these were pre-2002 photos.
I am not going to tell you its never going to happen, but this is already happening, but keep in mind they already have a gis and should build off of that. there is a thing called arcpad, which allows field techs to take inhouse data into the field. this sounds more practical to me than what your proposing with google stuff and etc. but I am just catching up. I dont want JocoSar to get all overwhelmed when there are already cases in other municipalities and counties they could use as a model and not just us and our ideas.
1035 – Great point, JoCo! I wondered that when I first started messing with them – how old are they and what all has happened since then seems to matter quite a bit more out there than it would in my unchanging neighborhood.
1037 – Kip, that’s what I started wondering when I realize how far from it this was – but it was still interesting to see and understand what had gone on before they even got to that fork. Looks like it was even trickier than the more direct route – I’d be that much more stressed out personally.
glenn – a couple of things…I did mention that I was still thinking…don’t think that I am ruling anything out at this point…maybe I could think to myself? I was just voicing some things here…
Also, our GIS has a mobile trailer and a brand new $10,000 plotter just for this field response purpose. This was purchased with a grant just after the Deer Creek Fire here…they are very much willing to get their hands dirty and respond to the field to fulfill our EVERY mapping need!!!
[1041] – thanks Maggie. thanks too for helping out by explaining what I was trying to say earlier tonight. lots gone by since that… just want to let you know i appreciated your initiative.
(1050) bad choice of words…hands dirty…today I do not see the close link between the SAR feet on the ground and GIS. I need to understand how it works better today to make an assessment of how it could be closer. I think that is key.
1047 – I think when RRR was Grrring over the maps she and Thelma (excuse me) JoCo, would have torn him limb from limb were he in the same room.
JoCo / RRR, earlier you said “you” think this is how they went…did “you” mean just you two or was that the official take of larger SAR ?…relevant to gas, but also to their state of mind. If they rambled around Peavine instead of staying on BC they would be more exhausted, more frustrated, more uncertain, when they came to the fork they ultimately turned down.
I can’t remember either, what do the elevations look like along Peavine ?
1056 – sorry, oh geez..I was only representing my very own opinion there…not sure what everyone else thinks..and, like Kip says, not sure it really even matters…
1058 – So JoCo what does make you think they took this awful Peavine route vs. the still awful but not as awful looking other “direct” route? Because of the coast signs pointing that way?
google maps is great, in general. but the functionality of gis is far beyond. for instance line of site maps. this is a sophisitcated calculation based on raster elevation data that we can do with esri gis in the spatial analyst extension. but the average person cannot walk along and pick up google maps and do something like that. I dont even think google earth has that kind of fuctionality to the kind of analysis we do with GIS.
gis is truly very complicated and I dont know who they have working there but I trust they are up on the latest, and the only thing holding them back is funds and jurisdictional issues.
ok I am off to bed…see you all tomorrow…JoCoSAR, RogueRiverRat and RogueRiverRat78 think about those ideas…send me your thoughts good and bad…same for the rest of youze…I am collecting all the ideas.
And those out there lurking – GET INVOLVED – let your opinion and ideas be heard – thanks Angela for stopping in.
Glenn – I think that you are correct in some ways. Most searches are so very easy. They are not like this at all! I think that what really needs to happen, and I hope that it will with the Governor’s comments on this search, is more funding available (through grants or whatever) for SAR in general. When you have a unit with only 3 running vehicles, it is hard to justify spending time and money on incredible technology that would not be used nearly as much…I hope that I am making sense? I am certainly not opposed to your suggestions or ideas, I just think that we need to back up a tad bit…
Been thinking on this all day…still think they may ultimately have had BC in mind all along, never intending to turn at Roseburg. They left Seattle that morning, 3 hrs to PDX minimum…another 3 to Roseburg…with young kids many stops I am sure, and likely some shopping too….another hour to the Merlin turn-off. 7+ hours driving time MINIMUM, along with a baby and 4 month old, it’s dark, late, you’re exhausted, and then you end up on circuitious Peavine ?!?…no fan of Pacs, but I think his sunk-cost fallacy plays well into those circumstances…that or just severe exhaustion and perhaps more than a bit of panic.
Speaking of Jurisdictions – and just a what if diversion here:
How much more complicated would everything have become if the Kim’s car had been over the county line? By then was ICS in place with what coordinated multi-agency cooperation existed? Or might that have delayed things?
Just a curiousity due to the proximity to the county line. . . .
Glenn – I have come up with a good solution, you seem to be the only one in the wrong time zone..move closer so that you can stay up later talking to us! Isn’t that a great idea?!
1074 – Paul, they stayed the night in Portland the night before this. Seattle was the night prior. I’m still trying to decide about the rest, maybe sunk-cost thing to a certain degree not expecting it could get that bad until it was too late, but I don’t think I’ll ever buy the other theory that they wanted to get to their luxury lodging badly enough that they didn’t care about risks.
OH…how many times we have talked about that!!!!! Would have probably worked out the same really…since resources were already in place. Finding the car in Curry Co and James in Josephine…not much difference really..I just can’t imagine how it could have been different. All things possible I guess…All of those counties were in the same room anyway.
(1074) BTW…the sunk cost falacy used to be called “good money after bad” – it isn’t a new concept and Pac certainly didn’t come up with it.
Sure everybody wants to get to their destination, they don’t want to lose their deposit…but there is no way in hades that a loving family like the Kim’s pushed on into the wilderness with their kids in the car on purpose!
Call it what you will…sunk cost falacy is not the cause of this situation. They made a wrong turn and they got screwed – plain and simple.
1082 – JoCo, I’ll give it a try, but no one explains it quite like Pac. In the most nutshell version, if I understand it correctly, you are this far into the trip that even if it starts to look bad, you keep going thinking “heck, we’ve already come this far – no point in turning around now.”
1079 – oh no, I never bought that crock of Pac fluff…more the part that you are so far down a route that you feel you can’t turn back as you have so much time and energy invested into it that you must push on…it is late and I am sleep deprived so forgot their stay in PDX….of course, it was the lousy hotel here that would not share the card info.
1073 – yeah, still here. WHAT is this Dutch Brothers coffee thing? Excuse my ignorance, but I have never heard of it, and I drink my fair share of good java.
[1042] – thanks JoCoSAR for your response. whilst i feel in an expressive mood I want to say I appreciate your openness and willingness to speak your mind here, perhaps at some considerable personal risk. A most refreshing change from ALL public servants (if by chance you are one, of course) that I’ve ever encountered. Just imagine if Dick Cheney, as an example, could be met *face to face* in a forum environment such as here. Discussing openly and honestly the great affairs of the world? …nice to dream.
1080 – I have this awful visual of two sheriffs (or other appointees) out back of command center having a pissing contest to see who gets to do PR announcements; etc. That would have taken till July to reveiw – arghhh. . .
1090 – I am here at this point to learn. Plain and simple. I am in no way above admitting that I know it all. I think that there are so many cool things happening here, that I can’t bear to stay out of it anymore. I dont think that we are talking so specific to the kims at this point that I could get into trouble. I am on an opinion finding mission. I am simply here to learn. No matter whom I work for!
“heck, we’ve already come this far – no point in turning around now.”
i know that syndome well. especially when hiking, climbing that next peak. determined. the getting there finding there’s one more next peak. must push on. It’s an emotional thing, a powerful driver.
Glenn – 74 degrees ??! We hate you…still, I’d rather rust in Oregon…and JoCo and RRR really have it good being close to my beloved Rogue River. Am a rare breed, was actually born here.
623 I have hunted up there for 20 years+ and never seen the gate locked, I have hunted Christmas trees up there after Thanksgiving. The only gate/gates I have seen closed are the one just before the slide last year. Then you took the Peavine road up and came down the Chrome Ridge Road. A few yars ago the gate was closed on the Peavine road but now it is chipped sealed all the way to the top. They did this until they fixed the slide.
you dont have to get your gis guy in touch with me. my guess is he is a fairly young nerd like myself with his own network of other map friends of his own, held back by the same things SAR is held back by. Or, they pay him so little he is not very experienced but is learning better how to help. Some counties have huge gis departments and some have…one person. The technology is there, its all about funds and how many people you have and how much gis has been integrated into people’s workflow. but I see you have an ims so I can tell its a fairly sophisiticated operation you have.
Unfortunatley, it is usually the top decision makers that have the problem accepting GIS and its functionality, and making provisions in the budget for it as it is an emerging technology.
Bob ! – you’re back, welcome back. There was a Spencer who is local who posted in the early pages, but he went away, which was a shame because he had good things to contribute. I really think the ultimate decision on the road should be left to those who live there, it’s your home, not ours.
mapper – I had you right until the “ims” part…we actually have 2 GIS guys. They are amazing!! RRR’s dad was their boss until he retired. Everyone around here loves the GIS guys. They are almost famous and can do no wrong!! Granted, they are both looking for new jobs due to the fact that many county employees here will be laid off in January!
[1093] – back in engineering school we had a course entitled Engineering Economy. Sunk cost study was a big part of that course. IMO PacNWr did right by bringing it up. In fact most of his points were good. Just that people here didn’t want to listen. For example it’s not certain that the poster ‘Kati’s Dad’ is legit. I hope and think so, but could be otherwise.
Maggie, I am excited about your mapping triumphs today, I still havn’t gotten around to looking at any of the creations today. It’s like I can’t bring myself to look at another map! 🙂
1123 – Mapper, like I said, all I did was trace it – you are in no danger, I promise 🙂 I do enjoy it, though. Google Earth is amazing to me. I was able to find this place in Gifford Pinchot (in WA) on there where I had once been and haven’t been able to find since by following it along in Google Earth.
1122 – Kip, I do agree that when Pac was making an attempt at being civil and not trying to be shocking or deliberately offensive, he did bring up some good points and even possible theories. Without saying what’s been said a million times, it was all in the presentation. Zero delicacy there on any good points and then purposely over the top on the ridiculous points meant to antagonize. One word – troll. I was wrong when I said I’d never called him a name. I called him that one. And I meant it.
I’m convinced that Kati’s Dad is Kati’s dad for as many reasons as I find Pac offensive. And even if I’m wrong (which I doubt this time), it doesn’t make anything Pac said any more sensitive or appropriate in presentation.
1127 – I’m no Pac fan, but think he had relevant points when he stayed on topic, which was only about 1/4rd of the time, the rest of the time he was sermonizing, slamming people, being sarcastic, snide and offensive to just about everyone – even those who agreed with some of his points. I thrilled he’s departed.
Maggie…you are right. No need to second guess yourself. That was Kati’s dad, and pac is ….well whatever you want to call him, I have other words I like better.
1124, 1131 – River (since it’s easier than typing RRR for some reason to me…), you picked it up immediately. I spent quite awhile before I was able to come up with the paths I traced out. With no practice at all, you got it done.
1137 – I think Pac has finally zapped my hope as far as he/she (I’ll still eat my sock if Pac’s not a he) goes. Up until the deletion tonight, I thought maybe. Everything else is hopeful, but even for me, that’s a lost cause.
Wish I has seen that deletion….no, actually, I guess I am glad that I didn’t. If it was bad enough for Joe to finally step in it must have been pretty offensive.
1140 – So River, if you can say (won’t it be nice after the 5th?), does that mean you are not one of the office/paper people but one of the on the ground doing people?
[1130] … Maggie, if it were all abuse, i’d share your view. but otherwise I like the idea of leaving it up to the individual reader to glean any nuggets possibly shared and to overlook any accompanying crud.
1145 – It was left up to the individual, and I did find a couple of “nuggets” (I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist that…). Most of what Pac has said has not been deleted, so I think Joe was more than fair.
Well, I am going to attempt to get a reasonable amount of sleep tonight for a change. It has been yet another interesting day…isn’t technology fascinating ?
1155- Well yes I can relate a bit more to those who have not been in the field…..However if I had a choice its always nicer SOMETIMES to be in the field.
1156 – with that I am off to the land of sheets and covers…my theory was you were a kayaker at heart….when I was guiding the more adventurous ones were, which fits with your SAR avocation.
1149 – Kip, just in case, that really was not meant to be directed back at you. I just couldn’t resist a pun like that. I understand what you are saying. I think I just have a slightly different opinion.
I thought you were going to bed… I’m still here. Not sure who may be lurking. It’s the perfect time for someone to jump in if you’ve been reading along and wanting to say something.
Ok, so I have a scenario…not sure why it still matters to me, but here I go…they didn’t leave Roseburg until about 8:30. It would have taken them about 2 1/2 hrs to get to the turnoff at merlin galice road in bad weather (raining or snow). I would think that if they took the straight bear camp road and not peavine, it wouldnt have taken them until 130am to get to the junction (assuming that’s where the first possibility for a ping would have been). I think that I remember Kati saying that they stopped the car at about 2:30. Would it have made sense that it would have taken them about an hour to drive from the junction of 23 and 34-8-36? Hmmmm?? timeline sounds just about right. I am sticking with my Peavine route. Not sure again why it matters, but it does to me….
I have to say with looking at maps and comparing it to the mental pictures I have of a map I saw with the possible “ping” area’s and with having driven that road I somewhat have to agree……..
1172 – JoCo, you know far more about it than I would. Most of the reports I read mentioned leaving Roseburg at 9:00PM and stopping at 2:00AM. Still pings at 1:30AM.
I was trying to read above and not ask the same things, but I don’t think I asked this… Why would it direct someone over the Peavine route instead of on the “straight” road? Does that also have to do with the Biscuit fire and/or landslides or other road changes? Is it a “better” route? As you may be able to tell, I’ve never been out that way…
In your travel timeline analysis have you made allowance for delays when they were ‘backing up in the snow’ and for the time they spent stuck in the snow where they ~used up a lot of gas~ before getting under way again?
From the sounds of things as to what we have heard they really only got stuck at the ending spot trying to turn around….Yes we allowed for bad weather driving, slow, moveing obsticals out of their way and so forth.
Ok well since the light is on and it is a bit brighter….. I believe I will head on out to my own house now…..Was a nice chat tonight, those catching up think on the route info for peavine and look at the map….I think its even starting to make sense in my head! Good-nite!
[1162] — Maggie, thanks for the clarification. You are perceptive! Yes, I was puzzled by your response but thot it best not to maybe muddy the waters more by addressing the issue. A bad habit of mine, sweeping things I’d rather not face under the carpet hoping they’d go away or that they didn’t exist.
BTW in my book Joe’s a hero. And there are not many heros in my book! I commend him for the tolerant, humble, encouraging manner in which he conducts himself here and for the unique and excellent work he is doing with this, his blog.
1182 – Please feel more than free to take out my incorrect version of the Peavine route and re-post it. It might make it less confusing. You can actually just right-click on it to delete it along with the pushpin. Might make it less confusing. Good night, and thank you for your insight – again!
Your very much welcome and the one I posted I believe did not have your line on it…..JoCoSAR says good night to we believe she got stuck in moderation again….she has been typing but nothing seems to be posting again. Good night all!
1183 – We definitely agree that Joe’s pretty darn cool for letting us all kind of take over in here! Glad you understand the spirit in which I intended my comment – in my own mind some things are so hilarious, but they do not always translate well online.
1185 – Oops! You are correct, I just had my drawing clicked to show up as well in Google Earth. JoCoSAR, keep trying because I’d love to hear whatever you have to say!
I just am compelled to say. I am still awake and am following along, but my brain is kinda like cheese whiz having worked on maps of my own for the last…almost 24 hours. So, I’m content to sorta sit back and just read what you all are talking about and am just sort of fascinated by all the conversation and your great activities. I have looked at a couple of the google earth maps but I just am not in analysis mode to think too much about it but all your theories sound interesting.
I want you to know, Maggie, you are not alone. I am also compelled to tell you, that, I slept on the floor of my office last night/morning! So, I basically fell asleep at my desk too! But it was a first for me! It really wasn’t comfortble but I had convinced myself I could get more work done in less time if I just stayed there, and I got almost a whole weeks worth of work done (it being a holiday week and all and I was the only one there). I didn’t plan it, so only had my jacket as a pillow. I have to say, even though I did get a few hours of sleep in, the few times I woke up and thought, this is not comfortable…I thought of the kim’s in their car. Not fun.
Anyway, time to sleep for real, not on the floor! Great work guys!
Whatever terminology is used there often is a tendancy to push on rather than deviate and often that tendancy is the correct one. Sometimes a pilot who did not make a 180 when he should have is better off continuing onward. Sometimes its a matter of ‘known versus unknown’. You know how bad the past few miles have been and how difficult it is going to be to turn around and find your way back. You don’t know for sure how much further you have to go but you so desperately want to imagine yourself as having ‘almost reached the crest’ and so it will soon be downhill to Gold Beach. Amidst the uncertainty of not knowing where they were, fatigue, hunger, the decision making skills need not have been impaired. It would be tempting to even say that most people would indeed press onward and hope for the best.
I just viewed the link to the pictures of the side road James & Katie took. Wow, I don’t know what average logging roads/side roads are in Oregon, but here in WV this looks like some normal mountain roads, not anything like a logging or side road. If I were traveling that road, I’d think this was a standard mountain road, not a logging or side road.
1188 – Mapper, I wondered if you were still out there reading along. I didn’t actually get to sleep at my desk – I wanted to, but I did have coffee. I have thought more than once lately when getting into my cold car that it could not have been even remotely comfortable for the Kim’s either, and sleeping would not have been easy. I was grateful in a new way that I could turn on the heat – I hate being cold more than most things. Enjoy your full night of nap in a real bed.
It would seem to me that with all the retirees, Boy Scout troops, church groups, youth offender centers and work release details, there should be enough manpower to obtain GIS data on roadways, signage, pipelines, hydrants, etc.
Even if search teams did not have GPS units, more precise data as to locations could have been obtained so that partially searched roads could be precisely determined as ‘searched as far as point x’.
another thing to consider perhaps… the Kims driving at night, light snow falling, windshield wipers doing their job well of clearing the glass, heater on so it’s cozy, headlights lighting the way ahead sufficiently well, making way slowly but ok. I’ve been there quite a few times. Feeling quite secure snug inside the car, shielded from the blackness and chillyness of the outside away from the car. Can give a false sense of security, I know. So you push on a bit further. Till maybe you can’t or until the stark reality of the situation sets in.
No one noticed this so while everyone’s asleep I get to be the one to point it out. Hope Pac is listening because it might mess up some of his theory. Anyways, Pac ha been emphasizing how many warning signs they drove by on their way up the mountains. My question is: If they took the Peavine route, are there any warning signs on it? Once you take that detour and get back to BC, are there any of those warning signs between there and THE FORK? I wonder if the first warning sign they saw was the one right after the fork in the road?
JocoSar
I read your theory and Kips questions shortly after and i was wondering the same thing. I recall reading that kati said they got stuck and it took a LONG (she emphasized) time and gas to get unstuck. Does that work with your proposed timeline/route?
Just wondering…
Think I’m beginning to catch up some, at least on pg. 4 of posts – mama got a laptop for Xmas – as I’m catching up, I’m jotting down a few thoughts- and as I jot down these thoughts, I mean not to offend anyone, but I do have an opinion and every opinion has an opposing opinion, an opinion is just that – not a determination of facts – as well as I’ve only been able to catch up on page four, there may be some info I’ve missed by not yet being able to go back further to catch up, which would be over a week of posts.
Why the story caught my interest – my family has been a fan of James Kims since we first saw him on Tech TV or was he on even when it was ZDTV – along with several other personalities there. James light just sparkled through. Then when I found out more of the details of the story – it touched my heart as well as there were several times in my life I found myself in potentially tragic circumstances due to just making human mistakes and it definitely has the ‘but for the grace of (I will use God, but one can insert anything one chooses here) go I. As well as thinking of those two babies…
I turned to the internet for more information as the information from the tube and the interviews I saw, things just didn’t ‘add up’, somethings just didn’t seem quite right about the search – I was looking for solid info, not opinions and was running into nothing but opinions until I landed here as well as here the people did try to find facts and base opinion of researched facts and try their best to be decent to each other. One can disagree in a civil manner, they do not have to be brutal, cruel or mean to do so.
Hearing from Katie – I also would like to hear from Katie, not to criticize what they did or didn’t do, but simply from a human interest. I do not fault or blame Katie nor James in any way what so ever. But if Katies never speaks out, I’m fine with that. Katie did not seek media & public attention and when thrust upon her, she has not fanned it nor has she used her little girls as some would. Yes, she’s made a few comments on Yelp, but I have a feeling one of several things – she had to let frustration out somehow – sometimes your emotions are so drained, you just don’t think or care what you do – or she made the statements for a purpose & if this was the case, as she hasn’t ‘milked’ her family’s story, then she had a very good reason for doing so and that reason is her’s and I have no problem with her doing so.
I think James could’ve/should’ve been saved – not only that, I think the whole family should’ve been found sooner. Buring THREE tires…enough smoke to …
well, I’ll just stop there on that one … there are other issues which bother me also,, but this one really sticks with me & to keep from repeating, many of Glens and Lisa’s concerns & questions I have also…
I’m not trusting the ‘official’ report to supply the answers… circling the wagons, etc., small town, big fish in little sea, etc. Am not faulting the acutal searchers, but do have some serious concerns about the ‘officials’.
Someone earlier mentioned the Sago disaster – this is my neck of the woods and there was the same going on there as I mentioned small town, etc.
The first reports came out it was all the miners fault, then slowly, slowly only through constant media attention, it has come out just how much the ‘officials’ were at fault. NONE of those miners should’ve died. Although I may have missed the very latest, the latest to my knowledge is all the families were called together to be given an official report and junk was thrown at them in a junk manner – even the governor was there and he shut it down because of this. The more the truth is coming out, the more is shown how much the officials were at fault, and a great deal of fault was due to officials not following regulations which were in place. The ONLY way the truth will come out is to keep media attention focused on it, as with the Kim SAR. I do give my apologies to the local SAR people who are posting here, no offense intended to you personally, but I KNOW how small town’s work & how small town officials work. My hope is the unlings don’t get sacrificed to save the officials, if the officials need saving.
Regarding James’ death as well as the Sago miners, that they shouldn’t have died when & how they did – part of me believes when it’s your time to go, nothing can stop it and even if it is averted, something else will just happen again — but part of me says, no these people shouldn’t have died when & how they did and even if it were there time, there were serious, serious mistakes made by the officials in both cases. The one thing which can make it bearable is that good comes from these things. Light shined where light wasn’t shining and needed to be shined, improvements made where improvements shouldn’t have to have such tragedies to be made.
1197- Very good points Frances, I HEARD that they actually burnt all 4 tires of the car, however it was at nightime so visually would have been hard to see the smoke.
1194- As for the warning signs on BC the Peavine road turn off is the FIRST one you come, I know they would pass at least ONE warning sign on Merlin Galice Road, I do believe at the mouth of Peavine there is a general warning sign about Peavine but done qoute me on that….I will have to look when I go home….
1200- I hadn’t realized it was nighttime, not sure if I recall one way or the other, but here is another point which sticks with me and it may be just too, whatever – picky or not apply at all. Three tires creates a heck of a lot of smoke & although heat rises, the coldness of the air there wouldn’t it have kept the smoke from completely disappearing by day? It takes some time to burn three tires.
(1200) They should have piled on as many boughs as they could have gathered and kept a strong fire going – 24/7. I know hindsight is 20/20 but if anyone else is reading this…remember fire is most important in survival and should be kept going 24/7. When pine is available you should have a pile next to the fire…when you hear a helicopter, etc…pile them on…smoke follows!
Pac’s allegations that Kati and James ignored multiple warning signs are just simply wrong based upon what Kati has told me. Again, clarification specifics will come in time from her.
I never saw what Pac wrote that got him censored, but I think it makes sense. The discussion here may ultimately lead to implementation of some very useful changes in procedures, road signs in risk areas, map alterations, individual responsibility (example: leave travel itinerary or plan frequent phone contact with family or friends),etc.
I hope that in the formal review process the issue of how private and individual search, rescue, and recovery efforts can best be coordinated with publically funded resources will be examined in ernest.
Inevitably, there will always be elements of chaos in these cases, but developing or improving guidelines and protocols will improving chances of lives.
Glen, isnt is nearly impossible to get wet pine to burn?
I’m just remember back to when I was a kid as well as time spent on my grandparents farm. Could the heat of the tire fire been enough to dry the pine out enough, once thrown on a large fire.
Also, I did not know until reading here that a test message takes less resources than a phone call, am passing that info on to my daughter, who now informs me SHE already knew @this@
Kati’s dad, anything Pac post is best ignored. Nothing one responds back to him or regardless of the manner, makes any difference to him. He just wants to inflame & attack. We’ve tried it all.
(1205) eventually the will burn…more importantly is the amount of smoke that green, wet pine boughs will produce.
A lot of people that get stranded think they will be rescued “tomorrow”…however from a survival standpoint you need to inventory absolutely everything you have, then plan and gather resources for 3 days, 7 days, etc…a planning mentality will greatly increase your odds for survival – planning and executing actually keeps you busy and focused on achieving small goals…each accomplishment piles on confidence and increases postive attitude.
Frances makes a good point about circling the wagons. I had thought about that myself. We’ll just have to wait and see. I’m sure we will pick apart every detail and discover any attempt to hide stuff.
(1214) I am trying to keep an open mind about this…one big difference in this case…is that the investigation is really being driven from the Governor’s office…that should plow though the local politics, etc…
1205- Yes, here in the rainy parts of Oregon most all wood has to be cut and dried before it can really burn –
depending on how thick the tree is. And they only had
access to smaller limbs/branches.
When you’re talking rainy or snowy Oregon (it’s all about
elevation), you’re talking Wet, Wet, Wet, and more Wet.
You’re talking unbelieveable saturation! Where you step
on the ground and water oozes out of it because the ground
is too saturated to take it all in yet!
Didn’t I read somewher where Katie said they tried to find wood to burn but it was too wet & they even put some under they’re car to try to dry it out – I’m taking that to mean to keep more rain or snow on the wood and maybe he heat of the car to help dry it out?
1222- It isn’t that saturated all the time – but it happens,
often. In one house I lived in where the basement would
leak when it rained – a mushroom grew on someone’s sneaker
down there! It was crazy!
Dr. Fleming, I want to address your posting on 1204 – I think that you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of “organized chaos!” I am not sure that there is ever a way to avoid that in a large case like this. I am not sure how long you have been reading along with this, but I will tell you if you haven’t noticed, RRR and myself were directly involved in this search and are trying to be very careful about what we speak of here to not jeopardize the investigation that we asked for. This investigation was called for by us local SAR people. We watched as the media used us as a scapegoat for the event, even to report untruths alltogether, or only half truths. Instead of firing back at them, we decided to have an official outside investigation. What I am saying is that I know that this search did not go perfectly. I have never seen one that has…especially this size. I am hoping that this report will outline what things need to be fixed. The list will definitely be very long. My hope is that people will give their opinions and suggestions on better ways to fix those things whether it be here or in some other fashion. I dont mind at all sharing our laundry list, I just want the correct laundry list to be shared.
I can tell you that I do not think that anything was done in such a manner that if done differently, James would still be alive. Those here can debate that comment all day long. You have to understand my perspective. I was there. I have reviewed everything over and over…not just while awake either! Please know that I am connnected to this event in a way that I will never be able to explain to anyone. I love this family.
I am here to learn, as I mentioned before. I hope that the report reveals what needs to be revealed. I also hope that I can come back after the 5th and answer some unanswered questions. Keep in mind that I will only do that if the questions are asked intelligently. I am not going to humor questions like “why didn’t you find him alive.” I am not sure that questions like that can be answered. Processes can be fixed and policies can be fixed. I continue to be one person. All of the responsibility and none of the authority. I am going to do my best. I want to be a better SAR….please keep that in mind…
Oh geez!!! What a ramble…sorry! Guess I need more coffee?
Also remember that all of the tires were burned before anyone was called to that area to search for them…there are searchers just “patrolling” that area looking for smoke signals…
JoCo I so wanted to look up the time frame for this but haven’t had the time to do the research. Lisa, you seem to be excellent at research…hint hint. time line, when tires were burned, when ‘copters were in the air, according to news reports.
JoCo, I do understand your position.
1223- I think you may be right Frances – that sounds familiar.
And I bet James would have even had a harder time starting
a fire in the Big Windy Creek area. It seems it would have been even wetter, and if he had been successful, he might have worried about it getting out of control – with such dense forest there. He probably just wanted to put all his
energy into trying to keep warm and making progress in
terms of distance.
1235 – I do not think that James had the means to start a fire in the drainage where he slept. I would imagine that if I were in that position though, a large forest fire would be a great signal to authorities…or not?! It was so wet down there, I can’t imagine that a fire would have had any opportunity to get out of control!! too bad…
1236 – very true tara. I think that answer could only come from Kati now. Once she has had a chance to recount all of the days and all of the fires built. I can tell you however, that from Friday on, there were helicopters overhead that would have seen ANY smoke from that area. I think that Rachor even mentioned once that he wouldn’t have seen the car until he was DIRECTLY overhead…needle in a haystack theory once again!
1238 – if you read that, it would have been a recollection of what was taken with him from the car. I don’t believe (I may be wrong), that he had ANY when he was found.
1240 – also, about the lighters…if he had one on him when found, remember that there were places in the drainage he would have had to SWIM! I am not sure if any of you have had to try to start a soaked lighter before???
Kim — whose family told rescuers he had some outdoor experience and had eaten berries while stranded, not knowing if they were poisonous — took two lighters with him when he left the car, Anderson said. “Maybe he got a fire going,” he said at a news conference. http://wcco.com/topstories/topstories_story_339074218.html
One of the multiple news stories reporting this. Probably a stupid point but I am frustrated with what appears to be lots of inaccuracies from the news. Just wondering if this too was inaccurate.
Again, even if he had them, I know he was swimming neck deep at times and probably couldnt have gotten a fire going but its wierd they werent found.
As I have said before, there were many inaccuracies reported. I do believe that he left the vehicle with two lighters, what I am saying is that I know he wasn’t found with two lighters.
1241- I thought about the wet lighter problem – that’s true
too.
I think they may have burned the first 3 tires on Thursday?
I will research.
I think the problems he might have considered with building a fire in the Creek if your lighters were working is
mainly two-fold:
1) It’s so wet on the ground it’s hard to find enough dry material/ or an area to build
2) You still may be concerned about a fire getting out of
control if you started one, because of the nature of fire
and it’s abilities to consume fuel, even damp, if it gets
big enough (Also the higher parts of the trees wouldn’t have been so wet. Plus you’re down in a narrow canyon.
Does it really sound like a good idea to start a fire
down there where you could easily get trapped by it?
THIS IS THE TIMELINE AS REPORTED BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Nov. 17: James and Kati Kim and their two daughters leave San Francisco in their family car for Seattle.
Nov. 24: The Kims leave Seattle for Portland.
Nov. 25: The Kims have dinner at Roseburg and leave around 9 p.m., planning to take Highway 42 to the coast, but miss the turnoff. They take Bear Camp Road, planning to take it to the coast. At 10:30 p.m., the Kims spot signs warning that winter conditions might make driving difficult. They turn back and end up on a side road about 15 miles north of Bear Camp Road.
Nov. 26: Around 2 a.m. the Kims are running out of gas. They stop at a forked intersection and call for help on their cell phone, but are unable to get service. It rains and snows all day. The Kims start up their car for heat.
Nov. 27: It snows all day. The Kims try to stay warm by running the heat in the car, but only periodically to conserve gasoline.
Nov. 28: The Kims remain in their car. It snows and rains all day.
Nov. 29: Weather starts to clear. The Kims start fires with magazines and wet driftwood to stay warm.
Nov. 30: The Kims use a spare tire to start a fire in the afternoon.
Dec. 1: They burn all four remaining tires to signal for help and for heat. The fire burns out in the afternoon. They hear a helicopter, but can’t locate it.
Dec. 2: About 7:45 a.m. James leaves the car in search of help. He builds a fire for Kati and the children, and says that he will return by 1 p.m. The Kims think the town of Galice is 4 miles away. It is about 15 miles away. James sets out for Galice, walking on a road for about 5 miles before turning off down the Big Windy Creek ravine.
Dec. 2: Kati Kim sees and hears a helicopter but fails to get its attention. James Kim doesn’t return in the afternoon.
Dec. 4: 1:45 p.m. A helicopter searcher spots Kati Kim and her children at their family car. They are taken to Three Rivers Community Hospital and released in good health.
Dec. 5: Search and rescue personnel find clothes identified as those of James Kim, arranged in a pattern that may have been intended to give searchers clues to his whereabouts.
Dec. 6: The body of James Kim is found at the bottom of Big Windy Creek. He had walked a little over 10 miles, but his body was only about a mile from the car.
Tara, I know from personnal experience that the reporters will get things wrong and sometimes misrepresent things on purpose. But also they often get things right. JoCo says there were a lot of things especially the main article reported was wrong. A lot of the wrong reporting seems directly related to the undersherriff.
Again, lets hope the official report clears up some of these things. And I have never agreed with Pac, but his statments regarding the reporters are true. Certainly they tapped thier interviews and if so, it can be gone over to see what was mis-reported and what was not.
There is a true story about a couple who got lost in the mountain woods in California. The temp dropped below freezing at night. They spent two nights freezing huddled together. Third day they stumbled on an old campsite (turned out to be a campsight of a lost hike that died in that spot a year before). They found the campers belongings and found matches. They wanted to start a fire to signal. They started a small fire (for fear of starting a forrest fire). A helicopter flew right over them. When they saw they helicopter not notice them they said they didnt care if they burned the whole forrest down. They made the fire huge and were rescued. (and the deceased hiker was returned to his family)
I cant help but think after all those days in the car, then the despiration that lead to the hike out (and the drainage) and desire to save his family, that man wouldve lit that forrest up in a heart beat if he could have. IMHO.
JoCo – Wow, I was not feeling well last night and fell asleep early. Took me forever to play catch up this a.m.! As I recall, there were conflicting reports on the fires. First, it was reported after Kati’s rescue that they had burned all the tires, then that they had burned them all at night. Then, there were other reports that they had started fires during the day, but I’m unclear if those involved tires or not. Now I’m mad that I didn’t catalogue all of this info at the time for easy retrieval.
JoCo, after reading over my comment again, it reads as if I meant you stated most of the mis reporting was realted to the undersherriff. That’s not what I meant. That statment is on opinion of mine, NOT anything JoCo said.
1252 – I agree…I would think that regardless of what was printed, one day Kati will tell us all with a clear mind. I have read conflicting reports as well. As I didn’t speak to Kati of this personally, I would have to only look at news reports as well.
We appreciate your knowledge and you being here. We are
just asking the questions we have. Most of the questions we would be asking whether you were here your not. It is great that you are here to help, and give your perspective.
We all believe that you and RRR truly tried and did the
best that you thought you could do at the time, given the
your roles and the pressure, etc.
And we know you can’t answer all the questions now – but
at the same time, it wouldn’t be right for us to not ask
the questions we have just because you are here, and we wouldn’t want you to take them the wrong way.
A shorter version of saying this is – no one is attacking
you, and unless we get some other person who gets out of
line, no one is going to attack you on or after the 5th!
We are just trying to learn and understand what happened
in all aspects of the situation, because that is the best
way to truly learn from it.
thank you Lisa..I am really not being over sensitive today, I was really just trying to make a point to Dr. Fleming. More so just sum things up. He may not have a chance to catch up around here, so I saw him here and thought I would try to at least address some certain issues in that posting, that’s all. I have pretty thick skin, and I will continue to answer the questions that I am able to answer. I am still being VERY careful about the investigation however. Please remember that. I also know that I may be subject to criticism after the 5th, and I am ok with that as well…as long as I am criticised for the RIGHT things that we did WRONG….
1256 – also, I hope that you keep asking questions. I would hope that you are all keeping them logged somewhere so that you can re-ask them next weekend. Note to self – make no personal plans away from the computer next weekend!!
I do consider all the ideas you have introduced for your post.
They are very convincing and can certainly work. Nonetheless, the posts
are very short for novices. May you please prolong them
a little from subsequent time? Thanks for the post.
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Joe Duck 
The Kim Family Search discussion now spans 4 pages of over 3300 total comments.
You are now on page 4 of the comments.
Hey I am awake now…where is everyone?
hi glenn.
(3) Ah Tara…I knew I could count on you! Good Morning.
Crazy night last night…but I see all the slackers are still away.
I have to run to the airport…be back a little later.
I just spent the last hour reading all the girls’ er I mean the more than 500 posts since I went to bed last night. (I’m in the DC area now) I’ve been on a lot of forums, and I’ve never seen a thread grow this fast! Anyways, it sure was nice to hear from wpflem. I’m glad he was here. It’s also cool to read posts for SAR members. Got a lot of respect for what you do. I’ll be back later.
It looks like last night sort of wore everyone out! 😀
6 – Good morning, DH. Yes, that was a late one. And I’m feeling it this morning.
Guess everyone is recovering from the posting frenzy last night. Unbelievable! Wpflem dropping in was amazing, and truly illustrates that you never know who is here.
Hi Maggie, good morning. Nice to see you.
G’morning all. Just read through the posts…whew! It was an exciting/busy night on this blog!
re8: Yes, that was shocking AND amazing, Madeleine!
Hi Gayle, like reading 5 morning papers, eh?
8 – Madeleine, yes, so true. Anyone can be reading along with us. And then sometimes some of them even show up. What an incredible place this is. It really was nice having wpflem drop by – he sounds like such a strong Dad, and that made me feel good that Kati has someone like him right now.
10 – Gayle, happy reading. Plenty there to read, huh?
12 – A real page turner, yes. 🙂 Hated to sign off and go to bed but as it is this morning came way too early. (yawn ‘n stretch) Had only one home care client though so that wasn’t so bad. It seems like time is really dragging though, waiting for the report to come out.
re14: I would certainly personally say “excruciating” waiting for the report to come out! I feel like such a fool sometimes! Oh well, enough about me. 😳
14 – Yes, passing time until the report comes out is hard. I can see us lined up in front of our screens on the 5th, drumming our fingers, awaiting the report to devour it. Bet it will be a big relief for JoCo, in many ways. And I hope it will answer any lingering questions the families might have.
The 5th is a Friday… I sure hope we won’t have to wait till the following Monday to hear about it.
re17: Heaven forbid, Gayle!
re16: Certainly a good way for any forum to keep a readership, that’s for sure!
Yikes, I hadn’t even thought about the report due on a Friday! Friday is a bad day for the news media to cover things, so this will be interesting. We can assume they are lurking here, I suppose.
17 – Gayle, bite your tongue 🙂 I’m with you, though, I hope not, but it makes you wonder. Aren’t BOTH reports due then? Perhaps the one Kulongoski is requesting will take more time to release, but I’d hope the OSSA might be in our hands a little faster maybe.
THe best thing about this forum is that we’ve had about 2000 posts to figure out essential questions that we have.
I cant remember, sleep deprivation, but did they say they would release the ENTIRE report to the public?
23 – I thought that with the Kulongoski one they didn’t really say what would be released, and that the OSSA one that Josephine County requested that they would release any problems. Neither really sounded like we would necessarily hear all of it for certain, if I remember correctly – but I’m sleep deprived, too, so that’s just from what could be bad memory.
Oh boy, does that Kona coffee I got for Christmas taste good this morning! We just finally got our Dutch Brothers too here in Newport about a month ago. Finally! I love the Mochas!
25 – DH, yes, Dutch Brothers is awesome. Not just their coffee, but the people. I could go on. I was running too late to get one this morning. I’d better stop or I’ll go on a huge tangent.
re20: Oh yeah, probably the CIA, FBI, DAR, Dick Cheney, and Hillary Clinton too!
That was so funny last night that JoCo and RRR were in the same room on 2 computers.
What???!!! Did everyone rush out to Dutch Bros. or go to their coffee machines???
Good Morning Everyone I hope all has recovered well
I wonder if JoCo is lurking yet. JoCo, are you going to have a new screen name on the 5th? Maybe I shouldn’t ask… a little paranoid this morning.
RRR!!! Good morning! Are you near the beautiful Rogue River this AM?
Why yes I am. However not many can’t be it is sooooo swollen from all the rain its HUGE!
Oh, that’s right. Sounded like JoCo was going to be very busy this AM.
How far is your resort from Galice? You don’t have to answer that.
Nope she is not even out of bed yet is my guess….
I am Galice
If I remember correctly, as a kid I used to tube over the Galice rapids down from Indian Mary, no life jacket of course. If my poor mother would have known, she would have freaked out. I used to swim across the river at Indian Mary, too. People jumped in the river on the other side from that spot I think. Those were the days!
What happened on #37????
I am not sure what happened I tried to use and arrow and it just didn’t send it. People still do all that still river stuff, it is job security for some now 🙂
Tara are you still watching with one eye??
Ok, totally off topic, but since everyone else here is currently off topic, I guess it’s ok.
As a coffee fanatic, I just couldn’t resist all the talk about this wonderful Dutch Bro. coffee, so I just ordered some and if it doesn’t live up to all of the oh’s & ah’s here, I will hold each and everyone who has praised it responsible. ; )
Just kidding, of course. But I really did order some.
Hi! Good Morning!
I found this quote from a CNN interview transcript, I just wanted to share:
“HAHN CHOI, FRIEND AND FORMER COLLEAGUE OF JAMES KIM: ‘As a father, I know he loved his kids so much. And his wife. He loved them so much. I know he would do anything for them.’
SIMON: Hahn Choi used to work for James at another high-tech venture, but says it felt more like a friendship.
CHOI: ‘I never saw him get mad. He was one of those people you could talk to all the time, you know? You know, it’s strange, because, you know, he was just a really good, good human being. It just doesn’t — you don’t find that very often.'”
Very Nice Dutch is the only way to go (for coffee)!!!
Yeah, I was quite the adventurer as a kid.
46- Very Nice Lisa, from interviews I have read and stories the media has given out I truley believe he as a true golden person.
44 – Lisa, I think I saw a clip of that person’s interview about James, or read it. JK had to have been a great guy to know and work with.
re43: Oh well, we have to talk about SOMETHING waiting for Jan 5th to come around! Frances, let us know what you think about the Dutch Bros!
Just in case anyone didnt’ see this last night in the shuffle, this is Kati’s review of her husband on Yelp. I don’t think it could be said better. How lucky for her to have had him and for him to have had her, too:
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.
5 stars.
We are apparently Dutch Bros. deprived in the Evil State of CA. Or at least I’ve never heard of it. But you all have spurred me to go find a cold Red Bull in the fridge to assist in recovering from last night!
51- I skipped the coffee this morning also and went straight for the Diet Pepsi
Okay, I had to go look it up, and we DO have Dutch Bros., in Central and Northern CA. Not where I live, it would be a 3 hour drive. And it would have to be VERY, VERY, VERY good for that to happen!
Here is another CNN transcrpt quote:
“JOHN RASHER, HELICOPTER PILOT: ‘First, I saw movement down in the trees, and something rapidly moving back and forth. As I got closer, I could see it was someone waving an umbrella.
When I got up to her, there was an SOS stormed in the snow, in big letters, probably five feet high. And then next to that it said “out of gas,” that was stomped in the snow.
I didn’t feel comfortable landing there. It was very tight where she was. I couldn’t have landed right where the car was.’
ZAHN: Another helicopter is called in. It maneuvers into the narrow pass. What they find is a miracle.
DANIEL TOWNSEND, VOLUNTEER PILOT: ‘Her first response when I walked up to her is, she just had a big smile on her face, she was jumping up and down, you know, just saying, thank you for finding us, for getting us.'”
re52RRR: Oh yeah, only difference here is before coffee I go straight for the REAL Pepsi!
good morning all!!
The tree crew is here this AM already. The saws are a rippin’!
Good Morning JOCO hahahahahahahha
Hi JoCo, nice to see you!
This place is so funny…
RRR – I can’t believe you beat me here…did you set your alarm clock?
and just yesterday, you were making fun of me for being so addicted to this place…ha ha
54- What a moment that rescue was, incredible! We should probably remind anyone not entirely familiar with the case that they didn’t get stuck from running out of gas but ran out due to keeping warm from the heater for as long as they could stretch out their fuel.
Tara, are you still here?
re50: Yes, she must miss a guy like that so much!!! 😥
Well yes I had an alarm set but not for this just to get up this morning!
tara?????? yooo hoooo???
Oh what? I show up this morning and everyone bails?
65 – Yes, definitely. The thing that struck me is that Kati sounds like she has a great sense of humor (many of her Yelp reviews are quite funny) and truly appreciated James – even publicly like in that review, and that’s not super common – and I really think that her girls can’t help but grow up well with someone like that as an influence that can show them humor and appreciation just be being herself.
re63: Technically they did not get stuck by “running out of gas”. But running low on gas was mentioned early in several accounts as influencing their decisions. They may have planned on getting more gas in Merlin area but couldn’t find a station open. What do you say locals? Are stations open at 10:30pm in the area where they got off the freeway? Wow, I almost feel guilty talking about this. Almost.
stations in merlin closed that late for sure!
And we established yesterday I think, that the last place that they got gas was in Halsey (near Albany)..someone did the math on that too..
THere are two gas stations in Merlin one RIGHT off the freeway that is open until 11 on weekends 10 on weeknights, the second is in the town of merlin and it is about 3 miles off the freeway it closes around 9
Good morning everyone!
I can’t keep up…go to bed at way too late an hour, wake up and find a couple hundred posts since I signed off…so it is futile to complain about sleep depravation since all of you by default must be way more deprived than I.
74 – Good Morning Sunshine, Paul! Yes, depravation is an understatement. All I know is that it was after 2AM.
JoCo, good morning! Your OR locals have been taunting the rest of us about the good coffee up there, no fair! By the way, I found a number of 4WD clubs listed in OR, a few from the southern area. There’s got to be somebody who knows whether these particular groups would be a good fit to help with SAR ops (I’m sure they already are helping out in many locations).
What you wouldn’t want would be what we used to refer to as the “hot dog” groups who had no regard for the land, safety or anything else, just drinkin’ and drivin’. The legitimate clubs tended to be family oriented and not like that at all, but again, I haven’t been involved in the activity for a long time. Some of your other SAR groups likely have experience working with these clubs as volunteers, I can’t think they wouldn’t have hooked up by now. I’ll keep nosing around…
JoCoSAR- there was frost INSIDE my car last night when I left, can’t say I have EVER had to scrape the INSIDE of my window!!!
D.H. – visited your site, see that you’re a Duck alum (assume from the music school). Very cool.
RogueRiverRat78 – you ARE Galice, interesting. So, as a local, and one who would be definitely impacted by policies with Bear Camp road, what is your opinion of all the various suggestions posted here on what to do with BC going forward ??
p.s. – you all type WAY faster than I can.
So that one right off the freeway PROBABLY was still open. Hmmm… It was about 220 mi. from Halsey. So they only has about 80 miles to spare, if that. They probably burned that up quick on that spur road, heating with it, etc. But… they probably would have had enough gas to turn around and go back to Galice/Merlin I would think.
72 – Yes, JoCo, tara did the math on it back in comment 355 of page 3:
“my findings are that the saab fuel tank at capacity is 301 miles. From hasley to galice without any side jaunts its 169.89 miles. If they didnt stop anywhere else they had a little less than half a tank of gas.”
I don’t think it would be likely that they stopped in Merlin for gas after that unless they used a different card or something – not likely.
Here are some more CNN transcript quotes I thought were
worth posting:
“PHIL FLEMING, KATI KIM’S FATHER: ‘At this point — I have certainly a big bag of emotions, it’s been an extremely difficult week. I am elated that the children have been found and that we have our babies back. But I have an intense worry about James at this point.’
ZAHN: ‘Kati, seen in this photo taken at the rescue site, pleads for the search to continue. She hasn’t seen James since he set out on foot two days before.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Apparently. Must have been the hardest decision that man ever faced in his life, to leave his wife and his two babies in an area where he knew was nothing.’
HELLER: ‘That is just very, very nasty terrain down in there. Mr. Kim was going from one side to the other. He was going through the water, trying to work his way downstream.
There were many times that our searchers were — while they were trying to follow him, they could not figure out how he had got from one point to another.’
GRIFFIN: ‘But James was leaving clues to help searchers track him.’
HELLER: ‘Looks like it’s part of a skirt.’
GRIFFIN: ‘As we retrace James Kim’s journey, Sergeant Heller continues to find more evidence Kim was leaving a trail.’
HELLER: ‘It is a wooden teething ring. Says “haba.” H-a-b-a.
It appeared that he was leaving these clothing articles to, you know, to mark his trail.’
GRIFFIN: ‘At this point in the search, Heller and other rescuers still had hope.’
HELLER: ‘My gut feeling was that he’s alive, he is cognizant. He’s doing his best to make sure that we can find him.’
GRIFFIN: ‘Did you have hope?’
HELLER: ‘Yes. At that point, definitely definitely had hope. ‘
GRIFFIN: ‘But they were still far behind.’
I’m assuming anyone at that gas station right off the 5 at Merlin would have come forward and/or was interviewed in case they paid with cash?
72- JoCo, I know we talked about the gas in or near Albany, but is that based on recollection or strictly gas receipts? I realize most people may tend to use their cards for all their gas on a trip to track it, but we’ve been known to drop in some extra gas using cash on the spur of the moment, say at a pit stop (“let’s top it off while we’re here”).
I can’t say that really in the winter it would impact me not as a local but our resort we don’t do alot of shuttles in the winter so no real effect on us, I believe signage would and could be improved HOWEVER people will so go up to play and those who are curious from the coverage of all of this
220 miles from Halsey to Gold Beach I should say. According to Google maps.
84 – I hate to say it, but yes, count me curious this summer. I intend to take that drive. I’ll rent something more suitable than the useless Mustang, and I’ll go when it’s very summer (August or so – anything before July 4th is very iffy…), and I’ll bring extra everything just in case, but yah, I’ll be one of many that will probably go take a peek.
86- personally for me as a “local” and a SAR member and business person of galioce that is what is the scarest for me from all the media coverage of the area are going to be the looky-loo (no ofense Maggie) these seems to also be the people who get into trouble
80 – On the highway it would get the 301 miles, but on Bear camp rd the gas mileage would go down I think.
84 – You’ve run a lot of shuttles for us over the years, and we always stop on my way to our put-in at Argo for a refresher on the back deck. You live in paradise.
I assume the shuttle route through Powers closes about the same time and for the same reasons as Bear Camp ? So in winter you have to go all the way to Gold B and up and around?
re86: No, I ain’t peekin’ or travelin’ on Bear Camp! I’m a scaredy cat at my age 55. Not unless I get driven in there by RRR when I DJ a party!
88 – You are not going to get great mileage on B. Camp, steep climb, twisty road…
89- True Powers way is sometimes closed the same time, Yes we go ALL the way around.
90- Maybe I should add a tour company to galice “Bear Camp Tours” so people then can look but not get lost or stuck!!! hhmmmm
re90: So now that I brought that up RRR, how would I get into your place to DJ for you? I have a big 15pax Dodge Van… high clearance, but…
87 – River, yes, I can understand that. My plan was to just go see the Redwoods, but I won’t be able to just drive past. I promise that I’ll be one of the very, very careful ones with the right vehicle/right time of year/right time of day/provisions, etc. I do think that you are right, though – Oregon seems to be the looky-loo state (at least that’s how it usually is on my commute whenever someone pulls over even for a flat tire…).
RRR, you can also email me from the DJ site I gave you last night.
re92: RRR, I think you may be on to something! 🙂
Hey RRR – still no word from anyone…only phone call was from my old boss…I am dyin here!!!
93- Oh in the summer time you can take Bear Camp we go 2 sometimes 3 times a day over that road with our 15 pas vans and a carvan of customer shuttle cars. However I still believe sticking to the MAIN higways 101 and the other that cuts to I5 is the way to go and is prettier!
97 – I at least got to tell him our frustrations from the table last night..he agreed. He has a 10:30 this morning.
99- BUmmer deal! At least he made the list!
Welll….. I’ll be looking for some VERY good directions if the time comes. I have a lot of DJ gear, not just a microphone and CD player. 🙂
101- I have put you on my music list for this next year I am sure I will be in touch with ya!
(45) I don’t get it…every time I have gone out for dutch coffee…I get stuck with the whole tab!
and…yes…I am back!
My daughter’s family lives in Medford, so I’d be driving from that direction and staying with her.
99- I am sitting in the same room as my father he is telling me about the animals dancing in the woods!!! AAAGGGGHHHH
dancing with critters??
re102: Cool, RRR! I’ll look forward to it!
103- Hmmm bummer how that works out for ya
re105: What’s in your coffee this AM?
109- Sorry I went straight for the Diet Pepsi no coffee
103 – Welcome back, Glenn! That was funny 🙂
re101: And trust me, you wouldn’t believe how much emergency and survival gear I have right now! It’s embarrasing!
Hi Glenn!! I missed you…
Last set of CNN Transcript quotes (I just found there was
some interesting information that I hadn’t heard before,
and since we’re waiting for the 5th and the resport and
all…) But of course, it’s optional to read if you want to:
“ZAHN: ‘After nine days stranded in the snowy mountains of southern Oregon, Kati Kim and her two children are safe.
For Kati’s father, Phil Fleming, the news is bittersweet.’
FLEMING: ‘It was just unbelievable joy to have my three girls back. That joy, however, is tempered over our concern about James.’
ANDERSON:’ We are going to continue to look until we find James. We are operating on the assumption that he’s still alive. And we’re going to try to find him.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘They are going to have to follow the creek, or hop the creek and go over here, where they can walk. And I don’t know if they can, because no one’s ever been there.’
ZAHN: ‘Rescuers traced his footprints. ‘
ANDERSON: ‘We brought in a specialist for — a man tracker that we can put in, see if we can find his footprints, and continue to work that out.
We’re continuing to work it today. If we don’t find him today, we’ll continue to search tonight, and we’ll do it again tomorrow.’
ZAHN: ‘But it’s James himself who gives the search teams hope. Rescuers find the clues he’s left behind.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘A blue girl’s skirt and pieces of an Oregon state map that were sort of cut up. And these, according to the information I have, were sort of placed, again, with our belief that little signs are being left by James for anyone that may be trying to find him.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘You have hope. You put somebody in there and you don’t give up on it. You go to the bitter end with it. And you know, when they announced it, it was pretty quiet in my aircraft.’
ZAHN: ‘James Kim, father and husband, had hiked more than 16 miles through brutal terrain before freezing to death. A state trooper called his journey super human.’
ZAHN (on camera): ‘James Kim’s tragic story is fascinating because there are some ways it might have ended differently. Just like it is for all of us, life is filled with coincidences, choices made that could have gone a different way, leaving all of us wondering what if?’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Edge Wireless put a gentleman over here. It was through his computer model that we were able to locate a cellular tower hit that concentrated the search in the Bear Camp area.’
ZAHN: ‘But in the end, James Kim’s footprints saved his family.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘Apparently the private helicopter pilot that actually saw them said he tracked Mr. Kim’s footprints in the snow to this location. And he said he had picked the footprints up back on this road and tracked the prints back out here to the vehicle.’
ZAHN: ‘James Kim’s story: five days in the frozen wilderness, a 16 mile hike in sneakers, came so close to a happy ending.’
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ‘So I want to make sure that’s clearly understood. They did nothing wrong. James Kim did nothing wrong. He was trying to save his family.’
(113) Nice to see you finally up! I was back first thing this AM…what time did you guys go to last night?
They did NOTHING wrong
115 – It was after 2AM, that’s all I know.
115- It was 20 to 2 when I left
Lisa, thanks for posting those excerpts, very interesting. The last one is so poignant. We need to quote the last two or three sentences whenever the Pac wannabes show up here to begin railing about James making bad decisions.
(116) ?
Maggie – your photo was hilarious!! I haven’t been out for one since the search ended!! I needed that!! Thank you..
120- Just highlighting that they did do nothing wrong
116RRR: Your opinion?
I keep dreading PacNWer showing up here the same time as Kati’s dad. No doubt he is shadowing, and he did not jump in last night.
121 – Just so anyone who wants to know is in the loop – yesterday I took a picture of my Dutch Brothers on my desk at work (yah, I work) because I got a new camera that I was playing with, and I sent it to JoCo in case she needs one while working on the investigation paperwork and can’t get away to get one. A virtual pick me up.
123- Remember it is my opinion……They did do nothing wrong for the situation they were in…THey stayed with the car….rationed food…burnt tires for heat…….It is text book “hug a tree” program…….I question what the thoughts were as they were driving up the road, back road, not alot of signs, dark, no traffic, when I travel I can’t say I would have continued down a road with conditions as that
116
I think the point is they made innocent mistakes.
It’s a kind of relative right/wrong where when
someone gets into trouble because they don’t
really know the dangers at the time – and then
they try so very hard to do all they can to
make it better to the point where it takes their
life, that it’s more important to acknowledge
what they did right – trying – than what they
did wrong, when they didn’t know better at the
time.
I’m sure that was said shortly after the full
outcome was known, during an especially emotional,
grieving time. When you focus on respect.
124 – Paul, I would like to hope that Pac would have some sensitivity – I’ve said before, I tend to be optimistic and sometimes naive, but I really would hope. If Kati’s dad has read a bit of this, I think he’d know anyway how most of us feel. There are plenty of Pac’s out in other places – we’ve been lucky, really, to have so few.
As I told JoCoSAR last night, I wish that there was a way to “Download” peoples minds after they have passed, To know the thought process that someone has in a situation as the Kims and to make choices as they did befuddles me.
Well Folks as much as I would love to stay and chat I must be on my way the shower calls me…..I have a 11:30 meeting I must prepare my self for….I shall check back later gaters!!
128 – Maggie, I would hope too but for the fact that he has never shown anything but overt INsensitivity and has, in fact, gone out of his way to incite turmoil and controversy and offend everyone ( i.e. the ridiculous joint commentary). I gave up hope with that one some time ago.
127 – Well put, Lisa. At some point they realized what the situation had become (understandable mistakes getting into it), but it was too late to undo it, and they made great decisions from there. Kati and the girls lived through it. James almost did.
131 – Yah, Paul, you are likely correct. I’m just a good hoper 🙂
(129) you would be amazed at some of the researching going on there…they hope some day to have a virtual replay of the memories. It would be a huge victory in crime solving. Plus you could pass life experiences from generation to generation.
134 – Wow, Glenn. That’s one of those kind of cool/kind of scary things right there.
134…better than truth serum, huh?
re: #49
Will let you know, D.H. Did I read where you are currently in D.C.? On my side of the country…Well, including shipping was only $18, so if everyone who oh’d & ah’d chips in, it shouldn’t be too much out of pocket to reimburse.
Joking aside, can’t check in like I was able to do for a few days last week and when I do get a chance to check in, is for limited time, so I can’t keep up with everything.
Especially like last night when Katie’s dad checked in, posting was so fast and so much… whew … but I’m trying to at least get the gist of things. Today seems just as fast.
See if anyone can help – if I print out the posts, it is much too small to read for old eyes, if I copy & paste into a word processing program, it looses the numbering.
Is there a way to print out so the font size is readable and not loose numbering of post?
Good morning to everybody!
RRR’s talking about brain downloading! It’s a great good idea:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/2006/05/15/with-enough-money-current-technology-could-compute-the-billions-of-neurons-in-the-brain/
127 – I feel that the measure of people isn’t that they make mistakes and get into messes from time to time, we all do. It’s how they handle an emergent situation, and these people did a valiant job of trying to utilize their resources. And I loved that James (and Kati, too, I’m sure) kept things under those horrific circumstances as normal as possible for the kids, reading stories, pretending they were camping, etc.
Thinking about the Kims made me remember once getting lost driving back from Oregon late at night when my kids were young. We were going through the Redwoods area, and what a place that is at night! I think we were supposed to stop, but husband had an abcessed tooth and we needed to keep going for home (truly get-there-itis).
Dumb and dumber to drive through there unfamiliar with the roads in the pitch black night. Fortunately, we ended up having gone in a big circle and got back to the place we turned off, finally. But for luck, we could have just as easily gotten on a side road and been no different than the Kims.
139 – Madeline, that describes my feelings exactly. Right down to getting lost (not Redwoods, but close enough, and no bad tooth).
138 – Playstation 5 – that’s really amazing.
134
Christopher Walken stared in a moved about that – it was
really wild – made a big impression on me. They could
record people’s consciousness. And then you could put
on head phones, and strap in, and experience it, including
the feelings. It was called “Brainstorm.” It was a kind
of suspense/thriller.
He was good in it. It’s one of those movies that really
made an impression. I’ve seen a lot that I don’t remember…
But you have to be in the mood for it.
re137: No, I’m not from D.C. Visited there once! 🙂 I’m on the good old central Oregon Coast, Newport area.
138 – Hi, Joe, Good Morning from one of the zombies.
Re: Your link: With my luck, I’d have a smarmy, smart-mouthed computer that had downloaded the brain cells of someone like.., well, nevermind, it would get ugly.
144 – Yeah, last night was the zombie zoo 🙂
145 – Have you noticed that later at night is when the good breakthroughs seem to happen? JoCo casually drops a tantalizing tidbit, or Kati’s dad appears and completely energizes the whole place! The very basis for addiction, itermittent “treats” of information.
139
I’ve driven on mountain roads Colorado at night –
narrow winding roads up high with immense
drop-offs – that have that kind of grating that makes
your vehicle bounce all over the place… And in a
lightweight small pick-up truck with nothing in the
back it’s hard to control, and you think you’re going
to bounce right off the edge…
What started out as a fun mountain ‘night time drive’, becomes much more…
I’ve driven similar logging roads in Oregon, up above the Umpqua, but now I know better to do it in the daytime, and
try to not look over the edge!
And I better stop soon because my typos are starting to
get the best of me… for some reason it is easier to
spot them in the font on the blog than in this little
comment box.
146 – Have notice that too, that many momentous items seem to come in the evening…hence the dark shadows under my eyes today.
Im here.
sorry- rrr or joco was asking if I was here earlier. Im in and out.
Speaking of the evening I’ll check back in later.
Gotta get some errands and work done.
PLEASE remember that I’m not here most of the time so please respect the other participants and avoid any abusive comments.
Thanks!
So there was a reference somewhere to there being 3 SARs online, either last night or this morning. I’m clear on RRR and JoCo, who is the 3rd ?
Lisa, drop offs are the one thing I cannot abide, would not want to drive those type of roads at night. I used to go to work on a perfectly nice two lane mountain road with dropoffs, and had to do it at night much of the time, which I hated. Even in broad daylight, it drove me nuts when I was on the cliff side. I always figured one of those hunched over guys on a loud motorcycle would take a curve wide coming down and knock me off the edge like a marble off a table.
(142) Johnny Mnemonic is a great movie about this…
You want drop-offs ? Try the gravel road in deep N.E. Ore. that goes to a place called Hat Point Overlook (looks into the Snake River Hells Canyon). Yikes.
(151) Who is Joe talking about? 🙂
151 – Joe, we will try to behave. I can’t say what you might come back to, though, if you go away for awhile.
146 – Madeleine yes this has become very addictive for that reason, I think. I’m afraid to leave the computer.
152 – Paul, not spreading rumors, so tara please correct if I’m wrong, but I think last night it turned out that tara is involved with SAR to some degree.
I sure hope Joe is not referencing my post 131. In fairness to all of us, it is more that someone comes along and purposely incites things with highly inflammatory commentary. As you observed yesterday Glenn, things are appropriately respectful up until that/it happens….and that’s is not to say we all agree all the time either. Accusations to the contrary, I don’t think this is “groupthink”.
I can’t talk here anymore..I have been “Sequestered” almost. I will continue to read, but not post. Sorry, thank you all! You know it will kill me! I will be back on the 5th for sure!
Does that mean Tara and RRR are going to disappear as well ?? Figured it was inevitable something like that might happen.
159 – We will miss you. Thank you again.
159 – JoCo, I was afraid of that! Now it will really be tough waiting ’til the 5th. Thanks for everything you have contributed to this discussion, it was invaluable.
134- Is everyone here perfectly OK with having their entire life downloaded???!!! After downloading some of that stuff, most likely shocking some of it… your ideas about your past relatives might change quite a bit… for anyone! No thanks! Stay outa my brain! You’d need some really good filters. 😯
re159: Oh crap!!!
Now, not only will I be waiting impatiently for Jan 5, I’ll be wondering why you were sequestered, which I will probably never know. 😥 oh well, it’s not all about me, that’s for sure.
152
Paul – I believe it’s tara?
Also – please learn from this:
One time after a night-time ice storm in the mountains
of Virgina, I was driving down the main ‘4 lanes in each
direction highway’, etc. I had pulled over the night
before, when I noticed the roads became eerily empty
around 7pm at night (early January). I turned on the
radio, and heard the ice storm warning. But the next day,
we were told the highway was salted and safe to drive
normally.
I was still being cautious – driving 55, while others
were whizzing by me, even though the grassy median and
sides of the road were littered with abandoned twisted
tractor-trailers and cars in unbelievable positions like
strewn toys which had to be abandoned the night before (many people slept in schools!)
Anyway, going over a long bridge, my light-weight small
pick-up truck immediately started fish-tailing completely
out of control – so much that my mouth opened wider than
it ever had and I couldn’t help but gasp in one continuous inhalation until I was at end of the bridge and I got control of my truck again.
Luckily I was alone on the bridge at time, because my
truck swerved completely into both of the other lanes
on either side of me at different times.
At the end, there was one thought in my mind – ‘terror’.
I just thought now I know the true meaning of ‘terror’.
I will never drive in those conditions again, even if
advised it is safe. Although it is true my truck was
light, and I didn’t have snow tires, etc. It’s still
not worth it to me.
My father and I also did a 360 on black ice once, where we
totally went into the on-coming lane in the beginning.
*There’s my personal Public Safety Warning!*
Im still here. and will be.
167 – Are you kind of / sort of SAR ? Why are you not subject to the sequestering ?…if you can safely say of course.
167 – Didn’t Vivien Leigh say we’ll always have Tara ?
169. it’s true. been here since day one. wont go anywhere. not even Pac can run me off.
166 – Lisa, thank you, so true. I can tell you, too, that the same exact thing can happen even in just rain. I know because I spun my Subaru (even a Subaru) in rain a few years back headed up towards Seattle on I-5. Came quietly to a stop on the side of the road in front of those that managed somehow to avoid me. That was the day I stoppped speeding for good. Especially in the rain – rain of all things! The next was my other Mustang that was totalled in the rain, going the speed limit, around a curve on one of Portland’s bridges – bouncing off the sides and just waiting for someone to come speeding up and hit it. We lived. Now I drive even slower – sure it irritates people, they honk, gesture, go around, etc., but the unexpected can happen, and I don’t need another jaw-dropper like you described. Let’s all be safe out there 🙂
I know it’s kind of intense but I just wanted to share
that because maybe it will help save one of you or
someone you care about one day…
Snow is bad for numerous reasons, but ice is really
dangerous!
Now I don’t like to drive in icy conditions – at all.
*I think too Paul that west-coasters may be having lunch!*
re:166 – This is a funny story, not too serious. I probably won’t confess the serious road/ice experiences. Logging roads at Johns’s Peak, Medford area, Jacksonville hills, used to ride dirt offroad motorcycles (dirt bikes) all over those roads (never really got lost, they eventually got you back to starting spot). One particulary boring winter in the valley, myself and my X (blechh!) were going stir crazy and took the bikes up to John’s Peak in the snow. So we were riding up the roads ok in the mountains (not good roads you know probably like Bear Camp spur roads)… all of a sudden my back tire spun out and I ran square into a tree. I was OK what with all my football player looking protective gear and helmet on. Only thing is… ALL the snow in the tree fell squarely on top of me.
Actually, I’d ride in that gear in desert motorcycle races over by Bend, and occasionally I would fall, of course. It got so I kind of liked falling, because I could roll all the way down a rocky hill without even getting hurt. I know, I’m warped.
(159) probably for the best…good luck…look forward to your return – Happy New Year 2 u JoCoSAR.
173 – Are you a ‘tomboy’? 🙂
166 – The short version of my icy experience: on my way to 3rd shift work on a nice 2 lane that was iced over, the wind spun my car around until it stopped facing home. I took it as a sign and drove home and called in. No harm, no foul, just less a day’s pay.
159 – Sorry to hear that JoCo won’t be posting. I wonder if someone above her/him has been reading her posts…
re175 – Oh, definitely! 😈
159. that totally irritates me. not on her part but just the whole waiting deal. I dont wait well.
What I meant was Gayle, yes, I’m definitely a Tomboy.
I hope that superiors haven’t been reading, but as we well know now, just about anybody could be reading. It’s almost tempting to move to a private message board, but that would exclude so many people, and someone would feel left out, and part of the point of this board is for everyone to learn positive things and get the most possible contributions to solutions.
171
Yes, Maggie, I agree. I tend to drive more slowly too
now – especially in wet conditions. That experience turned
me into a slow lane (not under the speed limit) but better ‘safe than sorry’ driver.
I also had a close call once on interstate 95 where it was
5 or 6 lanes across, and I was in the far left ‘fast lane,’
with a cement barrier to my left. I decided to change to
the next lane over, and as I was doing so, all of a sudden
I could feel that there was no power under my gas pedal. There was no ability to accelerate anymore… My whole leg
went numb with panic clear up to the top of my thigh…
Luckily, in those moments there was no one immediately
in the lanes to my right, so I was able to ‘coast’ over
to the right shoulder.
I got it towed, and they said my fuel valve had just shut
off. Just closed. “No fuel.” I had fuel in my tank, but it
couldn’t get through.
Now I have a different car, but
now I like to stay in the right lane! Happily!
For you who live with the snow/ice conditions, is it true that bridges ice up easier than the road? Lisa’s awful experience made me think of this. That’s what I was told when I worked in the mountains, “especially watch out for the bridges”.
Sometimes I think about how it was raising teenagers to make it through to age 20, and I’m SO glad we didn’t have awful road conditions to add into the mix. But I guess we make up for it with nuts who shoot people on freeways, etc. and innocent people stumbling into gang crossfire.
179 – A different car can be a very good thing. I have another Mustang now (that I hate when it’s not summer), and every day that it rains (mostly daily this time of year), I dread the commute if it goes fast enough. I know, I’m the only person who *wants* to be stuck in slow traffic when it’s like that because then I know I’ll make it home without hydroplaning. The minute I can afford a different car, I’m buying it. Hopefully before next winter.
180
Yes, bridges ice more easily than roads because they’re
exposed to the cold both from above and below.
The ground takes longer to get cold so roads are more
insulated in that way.
181
What year Mustang do you have?
re180: Ooooh…. that shooting people on the freeway when angry sounds like San Antonio… I lived there for 10 years in USAF. That happened to a fellow USAF band member there. Bullet went thru his door and shot his foot! Then on a side road near my house, I did something to irritate a guy in a truck, he opened his door and tried to kick my car! I’m sooo happy to have retired and living in quiet little South Beach, Oregon!
Anyway I have more questions about the ground search
and other aspects of the Kim case, but I guess it’s
true we’ll have to wait!
One aspect that I think is difficult is when you
have a family member who is lost in a not extreme
situation (like Mt. Hood) and you want to or are
able to look for them – but you’re not allowed
a lot (or most?) of the time.
tara – do you know about this?
If it was a situation where I felt like I was ‘up’
or fit to help in the search that would be extremely
frustrating for me.
I hadn’t pegged San Antonio for road rage. One of our staff was shot at one day after work on the 14 Freeway, and he was shaken up for months. It was strictly random, don’t think they ever caught the guy. Sometimes the gangs shoot at each other, and sometimes they “jump in” new members by making them go shoot at people! Other times, it’s just a sicko or “ordinary” road rage. Seems to come in clumps of incidents that may not be related, I think they feed off of each other.
I’m sure Pac would say the people should have known they might be shot at, worn a flak vest, bullet proofed their cars, etc. Uh-oh, Joe put us on quiet this a.m. with respect to saying things about others, so I’d better knock it off.
185
Although I understand the need for rules
in such situations to help keep order, it
seems to be one of those contradictions.
We live in a free country, but we can’t
help search and rescue our loved ones?
I’d be interested in hearing more about
those rules and guidelines…
185) I would think that some family members just search on their own anyway… not that I’m encouraging that! Could get in a lot of trouble/danger and get in the way of official search.
Wow, I think I can actually hear the wheels turning in JoCo’s head at this moment… the steam coming out of his/her ears… banging on the desk or the computer screen in frustration. Perhaps he/she should go take a walk. 😛
180 – In MN we have both snowy/icy conditions and the gang crossfire thing, at least in the Twin Cities, not so much the freeway shootings.
I wanted to say this last night but I was interested in hearing more from Dr. Fleming so Ill say it now.
I think it was mentioned to some degree, but I really think its important to be careful of what information is given in here. Personal information, assumptions of identity and thoughts spoken out loud should be weighed and measured carefully before posting.
You never know who is just silently reading.
Ever wonder if all these names posted are names and personallities JoeDuck made up and you are the only one whose not a part of Joes imagination? Hmmmmm….
Oh wow Gayle, lucky you! You have both! Do you have that Minnesota accent?
p.s. the reason why I mentioned the ice storm incident
was not only because my truck was fish-tailing, but
it was fish-tailing so wildly and out of control – like all over the other lanes – back, and forth, fast and swerving…
In a way I didn’t even know was possible…
But now you do, so you don’t have to learn the way I did!
192 – I would say…YA SURE, YOU BETCHA… and tell a good Lena and Olie joke but I am really not from around here. My first 30 yrs were in upstate NY and the next 20 in WA state and OR. I think my accent is generic. 🙂
An odd expression heard here in MN, I think, is ‘out east’. I always say ‘back east’ and ‘out west’. Guess it’s all where you’re from.
191 – Tara, you are right. Shame that we have to weigh and measure, but while some are lurking innocently and reading to learn, others may be skulking about gathering info to relay to who knows who for nefariuos purposes.
And if certain posters reside in Joe’s imagination, oh, man…
191
tara, do you mean in regard to my (187)?
Lisa, no that was a general note to all.
Im sure the answer you are looking for wont satisfy because it sure wouldnt satisfy me, but its true…. people can quickly become in need of rescue themselves while attempting to help.
197
Thanks!
#191: HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!! Not me, he could never imagine me!
Nor could he type that fast!
188 – Re: family members searching on their own. That’s what I was trying to say last night when I probably offended Kati’s dad by saying that I couldn’t have stayed home (he did exactly the right thing). I would have to be doing something at or nearby the scene. I’d be driving the last known route, checking places they might have stopped, based upon my knowledge of my kids, something. I don’t wait well (or follow directions well when told “no”, in a situation like this for that matter).
I wouldn’t go off into the woods or wilds looking for somebody, that’s not my area of expertise, not a hiker or tracker. They’d be looking for me, as well.
191 – Ever wonder if all these names posted are names and personallities JoeDuck made up and you are the only one whose not a part of Joes imagination? Hmmmmm….
Joe’d have to have multiple personality disorder…hmmmm
Either everyone suddenly fell asleep or Joe had to use the men’s room.
(191) I hear the footsteps…do you hear the footsteps?
would he use the mens room or the ladies room??
203 – I think everyone is getting a little paranoid about what to say and not say. Although your point about everyone falling asleep has merit, too.
(203) not all of Joe’s theorized personalities would be allowed in there – so based on your – ah let’s say interesting thoughts – please refer to a unisex facility out of respect for joe…and his merry band of personalities.
No worries Joe – I got your back!
(205) you know what they said about great minds…LOL…tara I think we both have issues! 🙂
Actually, a nap is sounding good to me. I don’t hear footsteps but I think I do hear the muffled sound of my pillow calling my name. 🙂
207 – lol, Glenn
Oh yeah – 209 – I couldn’t pull off a nap with the chain saws outside, the guys walking on my roof, the chunks of tree trunk falling on the roof making me think that someone just fell down hard in the kitchen!
191 – Tara, yes, I agree that we do need to be careful. I think Joe mentioned something like 2000 hits a day possibly reading along with all of us. Yikes, figments of someone’s imagination. I’m too sleep deprived to ponder that…
I want to talk about issues relating to the search,
but I feel like I can’t because of the investigation!
I was also curious about JoCoSAR’s posts 97 and 99,
but I don’t know what they mean.
I wish Joe would hurry up and get back from the bathroom!
I have no idea what they were talking about in 97 and 99, Lisa, sorry. Maybe RRR will be back after her appt???
I will probably probably be in and out of here until later this evening, when I will return more in earnest.
One problem I think that would be important to try
to find solutions for, as has been discussed, is finding a
way to determine when locals have a hunch or a lead,
how legitimate it could be.
Because sometimes locals know the area better than
anyone, and if John James of Black Bar Lodge noticed
tire tracks that stood out to him as suspicious
somehow, even though ‘there are tire tracks all over
the place’…
And I know glenn and Joe Duck have talked about the
capacity of the internet to help with this aspect of SAR
information gathering.
After all, it was the helicopter pilot’s “hunch” that led to the fastest success, and could have led to even faster
success if he had set out on Saturday. He could even have
still found James on the road!
How awesome that would have been! Even if he had just
told someone about his hunch about them taking that wrong
turn at the fork, on 34-8-36, maybe one of Spencer Kim’s
hired helicopters could have searched there!
(He thought about setting out right away on Saturday, but
his family had Christmas tree cutting plans.)
I think the John Rachor, the helicopter pilot should
get a Hero award somehow…
I think John Rachor…
Tara is with us, but JoCoSar is not, and we still don’t know about RRR yet – I think work under the presumption that someone from one or more investigations is reading so comment accordingly if you in an “at risk” position.
214 – I wondered about those too.
217 – I think you bring up something that we really can’t answer without some feedback from someone actually involved. For instance, I could easily forsee a situation in ANY high profile SAR where the professionals involved are overwelmingly inundated with well informed, well intentioned, tips. How do you discern the good from the bad, the meaningless from the meaningful ?
For example, before JoCoSar weighed in, people took Sara R to task for following up on a tip from her husband’s employee, but why would that tip be any more or less credible than a tip from the owner of Black Bar??…esp when that person was all but certain they saw the Kim’s on the pass??
I’m not a SAR expert, so I’m just guessing, but maybe in high profile cases tips get ignored due to the sheer volume in deference to following defined policies and procedures that have stood the test of time.
It would be interesting to hear from someone in the know on this as it ties into so many elements of the Kim search.
217/221 – Lisa and Paul, I wonder about all of the local tips that pour in, too. It sounds like that may be part of what Glenn and Joe are working on as a way to somehow “filter” tips. Indeed, there must be plenty of them, especially once any real level of press becomes involved. I would be that there are typically some that are pretty wacky, some that are fairly likely/pertinent, and a few that could fall into both categories. In general, I’ve always wondered what kind of system is in place and what could be done to get the best/most likely to the top of the heap. I agree, Paul, that after the fact it’s easier to second guess why one particular “incorrect” lead was followed up on when another “correct” lead was not. Anyone know how it’s usually handled? Is there some system that’s similar to a “triage” (for lack of a better analogy on no sleep) for incoming tips? Great issue for discussion. I miss JoCo’s input…
221, 222
Yes, it seems that right now they have a policy
where they may more or less ignore some tips and
investigate others further based on relative factors
at the time. Sara R’s husband’s employee having
somehow positively identified them? I don’t know
how that works when pictures of them and their
car/license plate have been all of the news.
I would be interested in asking John James why he
thought those tire tracks seemed significant and
worth mentioning as opposed to ‘tire tracks being everywhere’… there must have been a reason why
he thought it was important… it may still have
had to do with a ‘hunch’ and timing…
All I can say is, I’m glad John Rachor has a
helicopter!
And I’ll be checking back in later, but I think
I need a ‘nap’ too…
I’ll check to see if anyone’s around and responds
first.
223 – Lisa, I’m around, but mostly working and kind of checking in. I will be interested after the 5th when JoCo has more freedom to discuss both the tips because I got the impression that she had plenty more to say about both of them and couldn’t…
224
Sounds good Maggie. I know we won’t hear for sure
until the 5th or after. But I was just wondering
if John James saw the tire tracks before there
‘were tire tracks everywhere’ – tire tracks that
went one way – and didn’t come back! And maybe
he checked further up the road…! I know he had
to stop when they ran out of snow, but these
questions still interest me…
225 – Lisa, they are definitely good questions. I’ve wondered the same.
I still have a hunch the “truth” – to the degree that we will ever know all of it – will fall somewhere in the middle. While it is true papers need to be sold, surely everything reported in the Sunday O article cannot be a fabrication and/or misinterpretation.
One facet we likely will never know with certainty is how events unfolded that night on that road. Kati’s memory could be far from perfect due to all the subsequent trauma and she may, understandably, not wish to talk about it with the media for years, if ever.
225
Afterall, John James probably has a better knowledge of
people’s general behavior on those roads than just about
anyone…
227
That may be true, but last night her father made
it sound like she may be ready sooner. He said
she’s very direct, and she has an excellent
memory, and it sounded like he was very sure
of that.
227 – Paul, I’ve always agreed with you about the truth falling in the middle – if we ever hear all of it. From what Kati’s dad said last night, and reading her reviews on Yelp, I do get the idea that Kati will probably “tell it” at some point, and like many, I hope she does. I’ve also wondered how acurately she will be able to remember that first night – perhaps many of the things about their thoughts as the confusion began and that kind of thing (sometimes trauma does make those memories more elusive, but not always – hard to say), but since they were so desperately lost, I wonder if she would be able to say for sure things like which roads were what (for example whether they did ever actually get onto FS23 or actually turned around elsewhere on the spur). In any case, whatever she would want to say, I think we’d be all ears. For now, I’m looking forward to whatever bits we actually get to hear more “factually” on the 5th – yet I worry that it won’t necessarily be much that’s released. But you know me, hopeful anyway 🙂
I agree that the “truth” often falls in the middle…
p.s. I think he said when she’s ready she’ll ‘put it in
her own words’ or something like that.
229 – That is true. Given the intent to improve and prevent a recurrence, it would be good from the source why they kept going and what she feels would be appropriate to adequately warn someone in the future.
It kind of seems surprising to me that they hired a
‘footprint specialist’ to look in a creek bed in the
winter. For me, it’s just a time issue… One thing
about that creek bed, there weren’t a lot of places
he could go. It was forward, backward, or up, and all
the trail evidence he was leaving pointed forward…
I keep making typos all over the place “good to hear from the source” (233). Darn sleep deprivation….but hopeful Maggie, are you not in the heartland somewhere (2 time zones over) and did I not see that you were on until the wee hours last night ? I shouldn’t complain.
I commend your hopeful nature, it is a good quality to have.
234
Also, they knew from Kati his goal was to get down
out of the mountains…
233 – My pure speculation on why they kept going was because they either:
1. thought that they were still on the correct road (believing they were on Bear Camp Rd) or
2. realized they were very lost but thought that they could get un-lost if they just went a little more – until finally deciding to stop in a place where it was only raining hoping some rest and some daylight would give a different perspective to get out
(now that’s a question that just occurred to me that I hadn’t heard asked in so many words…).
Pac would say “get-there-itis,” but I’m not convinced. Had to have that word on here at least once today… 🙂
234 – Once you get down into it about a mile it is far more a sheer canyon than a creek bed. Topo maps show very severe slopes on both sides. Little wonder he was forced into the water some of the way, there was no other way down.
235 – Paul, I must be sleep deprived, too, because I read right past that as you meant to type it… I’m here in Portland with you guys (I think you both said you are here??) and was up until 2-ish. I need a nap. But I’m working…
237 – he’s been gone a while hasn’t he? Knock, knock furiously, on wood.
I get confused…then you’re the one in WA county, yes? I was confusing you with someone else. Lisa is PDX (or thereabouts) too ?
241 – Yep, that’s me.
238
Yes, so why a ‘footprint specialist’ in such a
situation?
Yes, I’m in Portland.
Yes – I’m near Mt. Tabor.
Much as I hate to give P any credit, I think he’s onto something with his sunk-cost thing. The turn-off to Bear Camp is 13 or 14 curvy miles off the 5. They knew the right route was another hour back up the 5. I think of all the times I’ve gone over the route from PDX to the coast in winter weater; you encounter snow and you think it will only last a short while – if I can just get over the summit I’m home free.
Lisa near Mt. Tabor ? Has Lisa near Mt. Tabor been down the Rogue ?
Right next to it, actually. Looking out my window at it
– one of my favortie views, ever. I love Mt. Tabor.
247 – Ah, the Lisa I know near Mt. Tabor cannot see it from her window. That would have been too coincidental / small world’ish.
Not down the Rogue, but to Roseburg, and down the
Umpqua… (though not on a raft – swimming!)
That’s true – one time I was going to Cannon Beach in
April and it was snowing in the Coast Range!
249 – Different Lisa, but you really should try it sometime, it is the most beautiful trip. Abundant wildlife, beautiful scenery, exhilarating whitewater, I’ve been hopelessly hooked for over 25 years.
Time for my nap…
Happy Zzzzzz’s
251
I would love to go there sometime… It’s a shame
about the bisquit fires though. It was the bisquit
fire there, right?
biscquit? yes, sleep time…
or biscuit!
Hardly affected the canyon at all, add it to your list of must-things-to-do.
Sleep deprived brain confusing biscuit with Bisquick ? – definite nap time indicator.
I will!
258
Yes! (On both accounts!)
The Bisquick fire is the one that happened in your oven when you forgot to set the timer. Ok, I’ll quit while I’m ahead.
Nighty nappy, Lisa. I’m so jealous.
Paul, I do understand completely about the sunk-cost thing and have experienced that myself also headed to the coast when it was iffy and not really wanting to head all the way back that far in – though if it looked just bad enough, I would anyway. So, to a degree, I think it’s possible here, but more than that, I just really don’t think they had any idea quite what they were up against or that it was really going to get that bad – until it acutally did and was too late to turn back because they didn’t know how to get “back.” Maybe that’s the point – I’m not sure. I do think it’s separate/different from the idea of wanting to get to their nice hotel so badly that they would take such a risk – I really just can’t fathom that. Who knows. These are the things that maybe, just maybe, Kati will feel like discussing some day, but otherwise it’s so hard to say for sure. So many possible lines of thinking.
hello all
263 – Well hello there!
Hi RRR, what can you tell us? How come you don’t have the number at the end of your screen name tonight? How ya doin?
I can’t tell ya much cause I am at a sar boar meeting right now listening to a detective
266 – Glad you could show up. Be careful.
263 – Yay, it’s R3! Are you back, can you stay?
266) Ah, I see, how interesting. You have a webrowser on your cell phone? Laptop? Wireless? Sorry, just curious.
I am slow to type I am on my phone internet. I will be here for it for a bit
Is that silly board meeting going to be over soon so you can attend to the really serious stuff here?
it started aT 4 I hope it is over soon its like listening to a campaign blah
No, I’m not offended by what I read here. I think it appropriate and natural to ask questions. Kati has told me many details, but I haven’t really asked her specific questions. She will tell the story in her own fashion.
On the subject of my not going to Oregon right away, I just say we all react differently and I think it is quite alright for some folks to view that in a critical light. I struggled with that decision and in retrospect, I feel comfortable that I did right thing given Sandy’s mother state of mental distress and my great uncertainity in knowing I might be helpful. I suppose my best role would have been interacting with the professional search and rescue team. Anyone remember the Floyd Collins story? His DAD walked around signing autographs. I think for a fee.
the up coming sheriff is here. . . .
RRR, someone asked me earlier if I was a Tomboy because I talked about riding dirt bikes. I was proud to say yes. Are you a Tomboy? Just killing time, not really an important question.
RRR, so how do you like that new sheriff?
Hi Mr. Fleming, who’s Floyd Collins? Guess I don’t remember it .
yeah I am a bit of a tom boy but I caN clean up with the best of them
Maggie and Madeleine, where are you guys?
I am going to stay neutral on my feelings on the new sheriff
Of course, I understand RRR.
Kati’s Dad,
I think most of us would have done the same thing. At the time, I put full faith in searchers. It wasn’t until afterward (unsuccesful search for James) did I start to ask questions and feel uneasy about placing too much faith in the protocols and the search methods. I am not saying that I am being critical now, just that I identify with your reasoning, and I am certain its just that stable sort of attitude you have that will be of great benefit to your family.
Kati’s Dad, since you’re a doctor (med dr.?) are Kati’s feet doing OK I hope?
Dr. Fleming. I love the way you talk about your daughter. You seem to hold her in high reguard. Thats very nice.
(273) Thanks for your post. Appreciate your perspective on all of this…blogging is an amazing thing…very glad you were not offended.
ok all iam blowing this joint cathc ya’ll when I get home
Good RRR, see ya later.
Hey, Phil! This is Ellen (Zoner Frank wife, in MA). I’m a lurker here, but have been curious to ask if anyone yet knows who sent the textmessage to the cell phone. Was it a friend who was aware that the family was missing? A technical professional who knew that a text message required less “oomph” than an actual cell phone call to get through? Or was it just one of those “mysteries of life” that bless us every now and then? If you don’t want to reply here (although there may be general interest in your answer), send me word via Frank’s e-mail.
(273) (285)
Well its a testament to Dr. Flemings strenth. Because, it didn’t take much for me to get offended, and I have certainly spoken my piece about it on occasion! I hope that is okay with the Flemings even though I’m not involved and it may have been at times better to ignore the few that have been rude and, frankly amazingly unempathatic to the point of being inhuman, in my opinion. The whole thing is just so very EASY for me to understand. Who hasn’t gotten lost?
The more I look at that map too, the more it bothers me. Has anyone else noticed that the roads in that area do not even have names on that ODOT map?
I’m not blaming the map makers but they seriously need to look at that ODOT map and get to working on a better map. I would think this, no matter if that was factor in Kati and James decisions that night.
Thanks for stopping in again Dr. Fleming.
288) I thought the text message came in before they even stopped on the 1st night (Sat.) So a tech pro would not even know they were lost yet. In fact, friends didn’t think they were missing yet either, it had just happened. If the messages came in some other time, then I guess I’m wrong. But I think it was that very first night that they got lost.
I don’t think Kati’s Dad is going to be posting much or carrying on conversations here, I could always be wrong tho. So why don’t you all just come back in here, sit down, and act normal?
glenn has never acted normal. 🙂
Okay. I did a little Googling.
Quoting news reports: “One of the Kims’ cell phones had received two text messages around 1:30 a.m. on Nov. 26, the day after the family was last seen at a restaurant in Roseburg, Ore.”
So we are talking about late Saturday/early Sunday morning of Thanksgiving weekend.
I think I just answered my own question. No way it could have been a SAR person. Nor was any friend/family yet aware they were missing. Must have been just someone sending a normal communication to them. Yet, I still wonder if this person is even aware of the role that he/she played in finding Kati and the girls. Would the cell phone logs trace the sender as well as the recipient?
DH
For someone who was so critical of going off topic and such in the beginning, you have really opened up.
In my opinion things have gotten a little out of control, but that is my opinion, its a forum, a blog, its under Joe’s control only, but he doesn’t have time to sit around and moderate.
I do hope some of the chatter while talking about more serious subjects fade’s into the backgroud. We are in the midst of people that have lost members of their family and I think they will speak for themselves when and if they feel like it.
I do hope everyone remains on good behavior and tries to stick to the topic of conversation, and in my mind the topic is pretty broad, its just that latley its gotten a bit too crazy, does anyone agree?
Maybe its just me…
Ellen,
I thought I had also read that someone (was it an edge wireless person?) had gotten the phone numbers and started sending text messages. Is this right? Or something like that?
294) No.
Good Evening Folks
294) Mapper, people change their minds. I mean, I could go back and research what was going on in the period you’re referring to, but I’d rather not. I think you’re choosing to remember “negative” things, move on, don’t carry a grudge.
I’m not trying to “speak for” anybody. Noone was “speaking” at all!!!!!
Oh, hi again RRR.
See, I leave my desk from work to come home, and Kati’s Dad stops back in again. Thank you, Mr. Fleming, for popping in again. I am very glad that you are not offended. I understand that you did what you needed to do by being where you were while the search was going on, and I don’t think anyone can give any good reason why you should have done any differently. Even if someone could, it really would be none of his business. I am very glad to hear that you are not signing autographs for a fee – not sure I ever heard that story… Kati is so lucky to have a dad like you in her corner. You clearly love her and support her, and that’s really so nice to see. You all hang in there and keep knowing that we’re thinking of you.
[300] …nice
295- did the text msg ? get answered?? Sorry trying to catch up
294 – Mapper, even though I feel like I’m one of the guilty parties, I’ll back you that today has gone WAY off topic – not that it’s anything offensive necessarily, but more like a chatroom. That’s not an all bad thing, even kind of good, to a degree. There is a line somewhere (hey, you are the map girl), and I felt like we were nudging over it just a tad. Way back on page one I was almost afraid to post for fear of muddying things up because it was very on topic – now it’s become almost complete opposite. Somewhere in between there is a line, I think. Just my opinion.
302/ It was the text message that Edge got the “ping” off of.
304- Correct but do you know that your cell phone is constantly receiving “pings” its the satellites sending the info to it
304 – It really would be kind of nice to know who it was that sent those two messages (I think there were two back to back). Even if I never got to find out who, just for that person or person(s) to know that somehow the signal made it through and helped.
I have heard that there is really no way to find out who sent them….We have had other searches where text messages have let us know where people are because they take so much less battery power and air wave stuff to send
I read and its possible that its not right but I read that it was a text message from the house sitter. She was worried because the Kims were supposed to be home to relieve her and she hadnt heard from them. She attempted numerous calls but all went to voice mail. Then she attempted the text message. Again, I READ that.
Jeeze… Pac’s not here so we have to create our own controversy.
I agree with Mapper. We need to stay close to topic. It’s hard to participate when things keep going way off.
air wave stuff??? nice…..
311-Air wave is my technical term 🙂
308 – Tara, there’s a good point – whoever sent the text would know that they sent it. If they speak up, we’d know. I’m not sure otherwise if either sending/receiving cell phone companies could or not…?
306, 310
Thanks, I was trying not to be harsh, glad you understand. I am guilty too so if i was noticing it I knew something must be different!
I just want to say I am very honored that people close to Kati have joined us, that SAR people have joined us, and I hope everyone feels welcome to post here, join the conversation and that the regulars here, well were not like a clique that you cant break. I hope that makes sense.
Thanks.
However with the coverage you would think that people know text msg played a big role and they can assume they helped out in their own mind
314 – Came through crystal clear, Mapper. Maybe you could make some of the new and improved and better explained maps 🙂
So I sat in a meeting today about the search and the investigation, I don’t want to damper anyones hopes, however I just don’t want you all to be disapointed if the 5th comes along and you all hear no new word, the word is they will take their time the timeline is the 5th but if they can’t get things done then they will take the time they need
317 – Thank you for updating us, River. At least there’s a target date and an investigation being done relatively quickly.
(292) normal is relative…or is it all my relatives are normal…
316-
Thanks, hopefully if the governor is reading along he will feel inclined to look me up! I do enjoy cartographic design much more than some of the the technical and analytical work I do!
Thanks for the vote of support!
It is hard work, and obviously a level of responsibility when making maps for public consumption. So, I hesitate to blame ODOT. But there are some very obvious rules that they have broken on that map and I would at least be happy if they took a few simple suggestions to fix some of those mistakes.
It looks like they tried to include a little too much information on the map, and not enough of the absolutley critical information. Hopefully this incident is a catalyst for change. I would not be surprised if many tourists were led astray by that map. Oregon is difficult, with all that wilderness area, but it’s not a good enough excuse to have this confusing of a map.
The trouble is, its not really even confusing until you realize what is missing, and some design choices that are very “off”
A traveller, with no prior knowledge would have no idea all the topo and road info that is missing on that map, in the bear camp area…..is it then so hard to understand they might have made a wrong turn? I dont even see any road names in the area! One could assume by that map that the route will be clearly marked and that its the only main road, that it will be easy to follow.
Its a challenge to do it right, but something needs to be done. They could start with first, making the warning box and text and arrow a uniform color, and not red like all the other benign red lines. Thats just an immediate start, a quick fix. But its easy and cheap.
Ok…I keep hearing all this – hey we are getting off-topic.
We all need to lighten up a bit. This has been a rollercoaster ride from the beginning. We all need a break now and then and currently we are in the “grey” area before the report is out and the investigation is going on.
I hate to even say this…but it has been all the off-topic stuff that has lead to people divulging information they probably would have never done – if it stayed soley on topic.
There is value to the conversational element for all of us. Helps us understand each other and helps some get comfortable with this forum.
Let’s keep the flow casual and see where it goes…we don’t need to control everything in life.
🙂
314) I’m going to be visiting my family in Medford for the next few days, and I must say I’m sure I’ll feel a dam site more welcome there than I am here.
321- I agree Glenn – Don’t you feel like you will run out of things to talk about if you don’t get a little light hearted every now and then…keeps people sane…
321) Thank you Glenn, my post 322 was up before I saw yours.
DH I didn’t mean to offend you. Of course your welcome here. I’m just feeling very sensitive toward outsiders that may feel we are cliquey.
Glenn, yes I agree with you, I hope you understand where I was coming from. I knew I would catch flak for saying something, but I felt I needed to at the time.
I’ll say what I usually say – there is a balance. Now that it’s been mentioned, maybe we’ll give a little more thought about some of the stuff we put out there, and if we still want to after that, then we do. I don’t think Mapper is asking that we make this a sterile environment, unless I totally misunderstood.
(325) Fully understand…but people are not soley about facts, figures and pieces of information.
To successfully engage people in a comfortable and open environment we need to let the ebb and tide carry the current. Whether we like it or not this blog has become a large facilitation of all the information about this SAR effort…
And it goes far beyond the few facts that we are trying to get to the bottom of. It involves 100’s of people.
I would really like to see more the lurkers joining in…and I might add they probably have started because they can see the people here are really human and they really care – not a bunch of drones who just want to throw their opinions around.
Not trying to flatten you mapper…I think you are great and your map work is fantastic…we just need to let this take its course.
Maggie, no. you didn’t misunderstand! Your quite right. I’m not always completley focused at all. There is a balance indeed and I am glad to have gotten to know you all and go off topic on occasion.
I agree with Glenn in that the more casual conversation has led people to feel comfortable enough to make this a real give and take. If it’s slow on topic, what’s wrong with a little chatter about getting coffee, for example? It led right back into the topic after a short (fun) diversion. And as soon as there is a serious question or issue, people snap back right away.
I agree, Maggie and Mapper, that staying on topic is the goal, but I’ve been on sites where you get cut down instantly if you mention an experience you feel pertinent or whatever. Thankfully, not here. Dealing with this group can admittedly be a little like herding cats, but we’re pretty compliant, for the most part.
329 – Well, if it means we can talk about coffee… 😉 Sorry, could not resist that one.
Sorry for the soapbox speak…
I just feel we were really starting to make progress in the last couple of days…because we were letting people get comfortable…now JoCoSAR is out…for a while at least.
It would really benefit this forum if the lurkers keep swooping in for a comment or two…very helpful for everyone.
One other thing…a lot of people state we really are proud of SAR, etc…well this has become their sounding wall to vent and finally have a chance to talk to others about this. The James Kim effort was probably the biggest effort in JoCo…so let’s give these guys some room. They need a place to come and talk, shout, whatever. They benefit and in the end we benefit even more.
Now where is Pac so I can have some fun!
[327]..”we just need to let this take its course”
agreed — but imo that means at least not discouraging people like PacNWr from posting here.
Rats. Just prepared a long message, but lost it.
Hi Ellen, I don’t know anything about the cell phone signal.
Sandy and I had a flight scheduled before the ordeal to go to Germany today for New Year’s, but we didn’t feel right going, so we cancelled and headed for Laughlin and Las Vegas. The girls left yesterday and I will admit I feel guilty now not doing my share of babysitting, it’s been a big part of our lifestyle since the beginning of the month. I have renewed respect for those parents who take loving and proper care of their children, a good bit of work, they are.
Yes, I am exceedingly proud of Kati. She handled herself and cared for her girls in exemplary fashion during their entrappment in the Saab. I’ve also been very impressed with the graceful way she has conducted herself in the aftermath.
I find all the attention this story has attracted very interesting. There are many parallels with the Floyd Collins story of 1925.
(329) I bet I can name some of those sites…LOL
Kati’s Dad: You are probably not around right now but I’m glad you’ve stopped in and we’ve gotten a glimpse of the father/grandfather, because I see this family is in good hands. I so worry about Penelope–gosh the look on her face when in her Dad’s arms. I can’t stand it when my 15 month old cries when I leave for work…I can’t imagine what it must be like to tell a girl she will never see her father again. I really hope she is ok and am glad she has such a loving grandfather.
(333) I have been reading a lot on Yelp…Kati is definitely something special – those kids will have a bright and happy future because of her.
Floyd Collins… the trapped cave explorer? I am trying to get how its alike. I will think on it but if you feel like ellaborating, Im all ears. thanks.
The historian in me will be interested to learn more about Floyd Collins — starting here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Collins.
All our best to you, Sandy, and your clan.
333/336 – I agree 110% that because of your support, Kati’s Dad, and Kati’s spirit, things will be closer to OK. Definitely it will be different because James isn’t there, but the spark and charisma and humor with which Kati shares on Yelp (sorry, that’s the only bit of Kati outside of this that I know), the girls will be blessed.
Now I’ll have to go read up on the Floyd Collins story you’ve mentioned…
Is the parallel with the media attention?
332 – Kip, I don’t think it’s a matter of discouraging anybody in particular from posting, but rather asking anyone who does post to be considerate enough not to make wild statements for the shock value. As we do have a family member (and who knows who else) present, and persons involved in the rescue, the discourse can at least be civil and reasoned, IMO. If Pac posts nonsense, he will get flamed, and then it discourages others who might want to participate but don’t want to wade through it all. I think it’s fine to have a code of ethics on a board, why not?
I have other theories on the parallels but its only theories and I am interested in your spin on it, if youre so inclined Dr. Fleming.
333 – Kati’s Dad, I meant to say to – yah, I hate that, too, when I construct some long response and then I lose it before I can post it. Anything longer than about 5 easy to remember sentences, I copy into a notepad file just in case… 🙂
And I do hope you enjoy some fun in Laughlin and Vegas – you deserve it!
Wisespread enduring attention to this story.
from http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/ALLEN/ch8.html
“It was the tragedy of Floyd Collins, perhaps, which gave the clearest indication up to that time of the unanimity with which the American people could become excited over a quite unimportant event if only it were dramatic enough.
Floyd Collins was an obscure young Kentuckian who had been exploring an underground passage five miles from Mammoth Cave, with no more heroic purpose than that of finding something which might attract lucrative tourists. Some 125 feet from daylight he was caught by a cave in which pinned his foot under a huge rock. So narrow and steep was the passage that those who tried to dig him out had to hitch along on their stomachs in cold slime and water and pass back from hand to hand the earth and rocks that they pried loose with hammers and blow-torches. Only a few people might have heard of Collins’s predicament if W. B. Miller of the Louisville Courier-Journal had not been slight of stature, daring, and an able reporter. Miller wormed his way down the slippery, tortuous passageway to interview Collins, became engrossed in the efforts to rescue the man, described them in vivid dispatches-and to his amazement found that the entire country was turning to watch the struggle. Collins’s plight contained those elements of dramatic suspense and individual conflict with fate which make a great news story, and every city editor, day after day, planted it on page one. When Miller arrived at Sand Cave he had found only three men at the entrance, warming themselves at a fire and wondering, without excitement, how soon their friend would extricate himself. A fortnight later there was a city of a hundred or more tents there and the milling crowds had to be restrained by barbed-wire barriers and state troops with drawn bayonets; and on February 17, 1925, even the New York Times gave a three- column page-one headline to the news of the denouement:
FIND FLOYD COLLINS DEAD IN CAVE TRAP ON 18TH DAY; LIFELESS AT LEAST 24 HOURS; FOOT MUST BE AMPUTATED TO GET BODY OUT
Within a month, as Charles Merz later reminded the readers of the New Republic, there was a cave-in in a North Carolina mine in which 71 men were caught and 53 actually lost. It attracted no great notice. It was “just a mine disaster.” Yet for more than two weeks the plight of a single commonplace prospector for tourists riveted the attention of the nation on Sand Cave, Kentucky. It was an exciting show to watch, and the dispensers of news were learning to turn their spotlights on one show at a time.”
On topic / off topic: my 2 cents is, for those who have been here since near the start, a break helps every now and then. It is a very heavy, sad yet at the same time inspirational story. We’ve been obsessed with the facts and specifics. It is good to get to know the human element of some of our blogging counterparts.
I am so glad Kati’s dad has joined us. I think that is something we have all wondered constantly about…how is she doing?…how are the girls?…how’s her support network?…what would a family member think of all these comments? It is good to know she has such capable hands behind her for support.
Dr. Fleming,
Is it frustrating to deal with the widespread enduring attention or do you see any benefit? Feel free to not answer I am just wanting to understand. Thank you for everything so far…
(332) I have no problem with Pac as long as he would switch his mantra, come up with something new, stop giving legal advice unless he is on the Oregon Bar…
My god the man never stops…same stuff every time.
332 – I have to disagree. There is no one quite like Pac (well , O & MM, but they were here but briefly), and I truly believe his major motivation is to stir up conflict. Disagreement, contrary opinions, those are fine. His motivations go far beyond that. He crosses basic lines of courtesy and respect flagrantly and frequently.
347 – no, it is not just that…there is more to it than that. Go back and re-read some of his choicer posts, there are very troubling elements that go far, far beyond a difference of opinion.
How is a lurker supposed to break in with thoughts on this tragedy, when whatever they say gets drowned out by discussions of coffee or whatever. I took a stab at posting an idea yeserdat and within a short time it was completely forgotten as everyone started going off topic. I could imagine some lurkers feeling it isn’t worth trying to break in with a comment that will get ignored or drowned out. Me, being a forum junky, don’t mind giving it a shot, but what about others?
That said, I don’t mind going a little off topic now and then, as long as someone brings int back quickly. Last night I went to bed around post 540 and when I got up today there were over 500+ posts to read, with a significant number of them way off topic.
Now I’ve said this, but I don’t want to get into a 50 post discussion on this as it is off topic. 🙂
Paul I have been here since we were in the first 200 comments. Just voicing a frustration. I think everyone knows I dont always stick to the topic. Maggie hit the nail on the head when she said its become like a chatroom isntead of a forum, and I did take DH to task for saying the same thing, and putting us all down a few thousand comments ago. Maybe I did have a grudge. Sorry.
Thanks Kati’s dad that is a very interesting story and prespective, much to think about.
well I happen to like hearing what NW’r has to say.
OK you all wanted to stay on topic seems to me things are going anit-Pac…..
Interesting story, Mr. Fleming. Reminds me of how the Natalie Holloway story took off, who knows which stories will capture the attention of people and which won’t? Had there been an internet in ’25, I don’t know if people would have been talking about the cave rescue operation vs. Floyd’s own actions or what.
My dad was a newspaperman, and one of my earliest memories is hearing him talk about having to cover the Kathy Fiscus well story when we first moved to CA, a public sensation as well. He had a sister who was killed in an accident at a school picnic, and as a result had a lifelong aversion to morbid curiousity. Made it hard for him in the news business!
What we don’t want is a carnival atmosphere surrounding the ordeal of Kati’s family, it deserves to have a positive, educational outcome.
352 – I respectfully submit I don’t…at all.
Thanks dkf747, I hear you loud and clear and thought maybe some felt that way. I also hope we can stop talking about it now and just know that some people are feeling that way! Thanks 🙂
344 – Kati’s Dad, thank you for pointing out that story (still working on the longer read that you linked as well…). I see what you mean about the parallels – there sure are a few. Way back on here somewhere, I think we’ve talked once in awhile about just what it was this time that really grabbed our attention and made us watch every moment of your daughter and son-in-law’s rescue ordeal unfolding as we cheered along and then cried along, and there were a lot of reasons that all made some sense – the sense of hope when your girls were found made us really think that the whole thing could have a happy ending, the idea that this was a young family complete with babies that seemed so happy and likable, for some it was the identification with how such a tragedy could unfold, for some it was because they knew James from TechTV and his podcasts on CNET. There are a million reasons, I suppose. But still, it is sort of interesting why it just happened to be your family’s plight and not something else going on that we barely remember.
354 – There was a story some years back that gripped the country, life in the balance…the young girl who was trapped in the old well?…ultimately rescued safely….can’t remember her name, but it was a huge national story.
350 – dkf747, you are in the right place 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_McClure
No it is not frustrating now, but I’m obviously concerned about the little kids receiving too much media exposure.
Kati has grieved considerably, but she is otherwise doing as well as can be expected considering her dear loss. The girls are doing fine. As can be anticipated, the 4 yr has lots of questions about her Angel Dad now. Sandy and I are heartbroken at what they have lost. But to keep it in perspective, it’s a scene played out with children every day in this country especially with the ongoing sacrifices of the wars. I do not think there will be long trauma from their days of enduring freezing and starvation. The long-trerm effect will be from the loss of their much beloved and most capable really great Dad.
Wasen’t the girls name Jessica that was trapped in the well
RRR I think so
358 – The first case was Kathy Fiscus, who fell in a well in ’49. The news media fell over themselves covering it (my dad was sent as a reporter). She was found dead, and it was a very big story. The other one, around 1988, was Jessica McClure, I think in TX, who survived and got married a few years ago.
And will always be known as baby jessica
361 – Your timely reminder of the fatherless and motherless children of the Iraq conflict is well put, there are so many of them.
Dr. Fleming it’s really great to have you checking in here. I think everybody has been touched but also somewhat surprised about how Kati’s family story gripped the entire nation even as other huge news was in our event horizons. Your points in 361 are well taken indeed.
The Floyd Collins story vs mine disaster may be a good parallel. It’s easier to access some stories/people and I think with Kati and James we all felt “wow, this could have happened to my family”. I still think this is an amazing story in many respects.
Can’t stay now as we have a family movie to watch but FYI the stats yesterday showed about 5000 people “watching”. [CORRECTION – 5000 “views” which could come from a smaller number of people]
Tara – ha! I like the idea that I’m many of the commenters here but it’s not the case. In fact I haven’t even seen any indication anybody is using two name (except when it’s obvious it’s the same person like Dr. Fleming or RogueRiverRat. (Hey RRR – are there really 78 Rogue River Rats over there on the River?)
🙂 I am sure there are many many more Rogue River Rats then 78 here
(350) Please post it again or reference your previous post…sorry it got lost in the fog…
Darn, Joe, here I thought you were sort of a cyber Phil Hendrie, doing all the “voices” here.
And don’t forget this media circus (from more recent days): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Sago_Mine_disaster
I’m just a lurker here, but I recognize what a critical mass of attention is now being focussed all of you who are active on the JoeDuck site, and hope that the momentum you have already started — to act toward solutions and not be bogged down in just gossip — can be continued.
If I may throw out my question, as i stated last night I am amazed by all of you who are “hooked” (for lack of a better word) on this search, my question is why?? I mean I know why I am because I was involved directly with it. And knowing that many of us who worked it wonder ourselves as to why we were effected as we were from working it, to see people “hooked” is strange also.
371 – All the investigations I think have kind of paused things a bit…waiting to see what comes out of those, what topics we’ve tackled will be addressed by them, which ones won’t….what the investigations deem to be the truly critical elements, etc.
Speaking of media, Ellen, that raises another good point. Which comes first: The public “jumps” on a story at first mention and the media sees the opportunity and cranks it up, or does the media really have the strongest role in determining what makes a huge story? Did Greta make Natalie Holloway into a top headline story, or did she merely report what the all-Aruba-all-the-time public wanted to hear?
371 – Ellen, I’m glad that it is apparent what we all trying to do here. Of course we are curious about things related to James and Kati’s situation, but the focus is on what can be done in part, I think, because so many of us feel that it could have been us with just the wrong set of circumstances lining up. Anything to prevent that is a good thing.
Madeleine, all of your insight into the media angle so far has been interesting and fascinating – too much going on to name them by number (did that make any sense?), but thank you.
350 – dkf747, I just took a look back, and many of us did respond to your idea about the electronic sign (which I loved because of the updating for current conditions it had). Did we miss something? If so, please do speak up!
372 – RRR, I have to bring up the media again. There was good publicity at the beginning to try and help get the story out to increase the chances of finding the family. So lots of people were following it along, and got drawn in by the ordinariness, if there’s such a word, of this nice, normal family ending up stranded in the middle of nowhere while tantalizingly close to civilization. If it could happen to them, it could happen to anyone!
People just identify with ordinary people who get into awful situations without expecting to. And then it became a cause for some of us to make something good come from it. Just my two cents. (My cents are adding up fast tonight, I’d better let others have a chance to talk…)
(371) You can count on it! Work has already begun, organization of the future efforts has begun, keep your eyes here – you will start to see the information flow in early Jan. Joe and I (and others – not sure if they want 2 b mentioned) have begun laying out a strategy to involve internet technology and volunteers in a system that could make a difference in these efforts.
If JoCo SAR will give Joe and I a 1/2 to 3/4 of a day I plan to fly to Oregon and facilitate a process session to collect the key datapoints and identify potential process failure points so that we can supplement the existing SAR process with an organized platform for volunteers, SAR and the families to participate in solving the many mysteries during a SAR effort (>48hours).
We are also at the very beginning stages of a Memorial Database to allow people to enter the location information of fatalities on our roads. If someone traveling pulls up a Google map they can get an overlay with our data and the points of concern will be dotted on their travel path. Hopefully it will cause a traveler to look more closely at the map and read the details for each data-point.
There is more…
(372) I think the outcome could have been different. IMO James did not have to die. With better systems and more eyes to assist it is our goal that we can shorten the time it takes to find someone missing. Better to try and do something then not.
(377) I thought if the sign were going to be electronic then it should be a memorial of some sort to really let people know the depth of the decision they are making. I thought I posted that too…
Stop me if I am prying too much but you say in your opinion James did not have to die, do you think with the “better systems and more eyes” would have prevented that?? I know its your opinion just asking…..
382 is to 380 sorry not good at this cross refing!
382 – Only speaking for myself, but that is the question that lingers in my mind, and I’m hopeful the two-pronged investigations will shed some light on that. Just a few days would have made the difference – was there some way to shave a few days off the process ? To me it remains an open ended question.
RRR78
This story drew me in because of my interests and I could relate to the Kims, and I read the news a lot anyway (probably more susceptible to be drawn in) But also because its a map story to me. Maps are used in both prevention and maybe not enough in response. There are so many new technologies that are not utitlized (and for obvious reasons like funding of because they are new and not yet part of protocols). I was drawn in thinking, gosh I have this software on my own computer, to think I might have been able to at least assist others, who were not privy to the government info, with maps, I could have assisted private pilots, etc. just using free data I could download online. Or even, just myself to better understand the situation or to try to take an educated guess about what James might have done, and later to find out where he might have gone wrong (the ODOT map)
Anyway, it was an interest from my map and government prespective but also because I have an interest in human stories…and the internet.
Funny that Kati’s dad should bring up the Floyd Collins story vs. the mine disaster. A few years back…was it the Sago mine? I havn’t looked at the link yet, it was the one in Pennsylvania. That one also drew me in because there was talk of a faulty MAP being at the root of the problem.
This is all of interest to me!
A major reason I find the Kim tragedy so gripping is that James’ death need never have happened.
Their car was found parked in plain sight at a junction on a back road not far off a direct route from I-5 to their intended destination.
Why did it take a week to locate such an obvious target on a road well known for inadvertently detouring errant drivers?
384- Interesting……
385- Did you know we had a county guy GIS system doing our mapping for us.
(382) I do not know enough yet to answer that question. My gut tells me it could have been different…not trying to judge what was done or not done…just want to see if we can improve it. I think SAR on the ground kicked serious butt. It is my hunch that the the standard coordination process was interfered with this time – don’t know why yet and I don’t think people were allowed to do their job…now would that have made a difference…I don’t know.
Also I have been involved in this since the beginning…before all the media got involved…the word was spreading out on the net and I remembered James from pre GT4 days…and I have everything cataloged from several sources and I am going to see this through at this point.
Hopefully we can do something to help the next person that is lost.
376 – Maggie, thank you for those kind words! I was going to say to RRR that with the internet, people not only can follow a story, but actually become part of it. How many of us have sent e-mails or called or had access to public figures from this incident? Look at us now, we’re here talking to Katy’s Dad, RRR and JoCo and others involved in SARs, etc. So we are, in effect, part of the story. I don’t think it’s a case of just being hangers-on, I think we see a way to change something and we’re attempting to do it.
ps RRR
I have to admit I also have questions. Because I know Joesphine County has a GIS department. I wonder what the communication is like between the actual SAR and the people that make maps in-house. Because, GIS people can do line of site maps, and it does bother me to think, they dont even know this, the edge wireless people did not even have to do this themselves or explain it. All they would need is the info for the cell tower (coords) and a USGS DEM and the gis people for JoCo should have probably been involved in that.
I wonder about communication within the county but I am not trying to be critical, but this was one of my original questions. I dont have the answer myself. But it is two emergent technologies that have collided in this case (gis and cell phones)
RRR
okay I responded before you said that joco has a gis…..interesting.
RRR, my interest began with my regular CNET news-email arriving with the info the Kim family was missing. After reading where they were traveling and supposed to be traveling to, I emailed everyone I could and suggested they check Bear Camp Rd (because of memories of DeWitt Finely; I lived in the NW then). From there on I had to follow events as they unfolded.
386 – I don’t think it was quite as simple as that. There are dozens upon dozens of spur roads that take off from Bear Camp…off of each of those spur roads are more roads. Zoom in on Google, it looks like spagetti. The forest canopy is dense, and unless you are all but directly over the subject, you are not going to see them….and in the early going they were trying to cover everywhere from Roseburg to Crescent City. It was only further on that they narrowed the scope to Bear Camp based on the cell pings.
…but your question will hopefully be addressed in the near future one way or the other.
385 – Mapper (I swear, I’ll be quiet after this one), you are so right about maps. I was haunted after the Cerritos air disaster some years ago because I was convinced that an error in the chart could have contributed to the small plane flying up into the Aeromexico jet at the edge of the Los Angeles Terminal Control Area. For a couple of years, we’d been telling the company who made the charts that the landmark that marked the edge of the TCA was no longer there, but was still showing on the charts. I still wonder if the private pilot was confused, looking for a huge green tank to tell him he was headed into the TCA.
390- I can tell ya our GIS person was in constant contact with us, (housed in the same building) I don’t know about the communication with the Cell and GIS.
RRR
I know I sound critical, obviously I wasn’t there but it has been my experience working with GIS that most people are unaware of what it is and it really takes time for its full functionality to come out, even when there is a full time employee using gis in house. It was just the line of sight map issue that bothered me the most because it seemed to me that should have been easier to come up with, though it sounds like the edge guys had their own way of doing the map anyway.
392- As a business manager in the Galice area, I can tell ya you weren’t the only one emailing, I received MANY emails from friends and family asking if they stayed at our resort, or if they passed through…..It was a huge effort
Edge brought us their map they had created on their own without request before we even were at a map creating level.
385 — sometimes the thought is enough to make me want to quit my profession, so much liability! That is why we put huge disclaimers on most maps we make so that we don’t get sued!! But its really very interesting and I know most of us do our very best to make maps “true”
398 – yes that is what I read. The article just made it sound so “difficult” for everyone. Obviously these are new things (I mean had anyone heard of a ping 15 years ago or was it used to find missing people?) there is just so much new stuff and wasy to coordinate with people. I dont blame JoCo, its just that there is a lot more now than ever to deal with.
mapper, good maps are a must but I think you’ll agree one must read a good map effectively too. I’ve boated/sailed the Pacific and Atlantic coasts. I admit I’ve had a few really close calls, near disasters, because of reading the map (chart) incorrectly, making wrong assumptions.
(400) A lot of have known about pings for a long time…
We were using them back in the early to mid 90’s to track things…
Until this search I can only remember two others, and they were in the neighboring county that the Cell programs to help us out. This is a first for us and as you can see from the MT hood Search it will be of help in many more
Ellen
It WAS the Sago mine I was thinking of, thanks for that link! For whatever reason I thought it was in Pennsylvania!
Is use to take an act from god to get the info on cell pings or triangulation of cell towers for a lost person
Well come on Glenn I knew YOU had heard of it!
Kip,
Yes, of course. People need to read maps correctly but we are trained to design in such a way that makes it possible to understand maps better. It is an art and a science and I could show you two maps of the same thing, and one would pass but one would be 10 times better….you know?
(406) we used it…not for SAR but for commercial purposes. Shame is…this capability could be much better and the carriers could really do something about this…
Map reading is also an art if you don’t use it you loose it!
[409] RRR … ya think the under sheriff ever learnt to read a topo map? I don’t.
410 – Seriously ?
[393] … “but your question will hopefully be addressed in the near future one way or the other.” Paul, I sure hope it is. I wish there were more folks asking that very same question. It’s the crux of the issue. imo.
(382)…now I am prying… 🙂 what do you think of angle that I am working on in post (388)
413- From and insider few I have to agree, I believe that some people did the job they were assigned however in a true ICS system you are correct people didn’t get to do the job they needed to or should have
Well I would be happy to take anyone up in the road and show the crazy road system when the weather is better of course (however that is summer time and then I only get one day off a week so you better schedule early!)
(414) ok here is the biggie…do you think if it went down like it supposed to…like so many times before…do you think time could have been saved in the search?
416- No I don’t think that time could have been saved honestly…….if time was saved I believe it would be such a minute amount it wouldn’t be worthy……It was more about communication and politics and people afraid of stepping on toes
372 / RRR – See my post in the very 1st listing, #536. Those are my reasons.
417 – Interesting. It would have to be days to have made a difference for James (I still doubt he made it more than 2 nights and quite possibly only made it one).
418- But all those things you posted in 536 on page one have been in other searches and had negative outcomes and yet the media draw has NEVER been like this….
In all your research has anyone read what the autopsy said the predicted time of death was?
418 – Paul, I went back and re-read that (you should re-post it here maybe), and once again, my thoughts out of your keyboard. Lots of reasons all rolled into one. The only reason I can think of to add for myself is because it’s somewhat “local” and because I’ve taken similar roads in similar mountains and understand even in daylight how difficult and confusing it can be – could have been me.
420 – Was not speaking to the media draw so much as what got me drawn in. I can’t address what drew so much national attention…here in OR, the Crater Lake story recvd comparable coverage, as did Mt Hood recently.
IMO if only one thing I could change about the search….Would be for some how James Kim to not leave his family and to have stayed at the car……
(421) Yes I read what was reported…however it is almost impossible to pinpoint time of death in those conditions.
Do you know what the temp of the water was during that time?
Was there any sign of a fire at his perceived campsites?
421 – Can’t find the link, but the coroner later clarified that he doubted James could have made it beyond Monday, but that was his guesstimate as the body never re-entered rigor mortis and his core temp has equalized with the outside air temp, making it impossible to get much beyond a guestimate.
424 – River, if he had only known. After that many days, I’d have left, too. At that point, a decision has to be made while you still have one to make, and if it looks like help might not come, that may be the only chance. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sadly, it’s a gamble. Very sadly, Kati and girls lost James in that deal.
[417] … gees, ONE person, at his own volition, on his own tab, use his noggin and his knowledege of the area, one day decides to find the Kims, and HE does.
“communication and politics and people” sounds like excuse making gobblygook.
425- No sign of fires at the campsites, I couldn’t tell ya the water temp other then cold, they were primary run offs from the Mt of snow
If I go back and read my posts at MT about SAR… which I just did… I was an idiot in light of what we’ve recently learned from SAR personnel.
430- MT?
431 – River, MT is mailtribune.com’s forum:
http://www.mailtribuneforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1003
431) Mail Tribune forums. I hesitate to direct you to a URL, then you will truly see the idiot. Forums are well linked from http://www.mailtribune.com.
[411] … Paul, yes. Admittedly only an educated guess. One press conference they pulled out a topo map of the W.C. area with pins showing the *new*!! locations of where the car was parked, where James left the road, etc. anderson looked confused and uneasy imo with his role in the presentation. Ever see somebody turn a map upside down or sideways when trying to make sense of it? Means to me they are not confortable working with maps.
Oh, I’ve deleted some of the recent ones, don’t hold em against me. Live and learn.
436- Nope I am at my own house today I haven’t spoken with them since beofre 3 today
Oh dear, I believe I heard a “whoosh” of activity toward Medford. Sorry about the diversion. I can’t seem to say anything right lately. 😕
437 – River, feel free not to answer. As part of JoCo’s “almost sequestering,” is he/she able to still be in contact with you and others? I just hope there is still some outlet, especially if JoCo is lurking and wishing to comment.
(429) If there were signs of fire then it would leave me to believe he could have lived longer than I think he did. Given the temperatures, etc…being wet I don’t think anyone could have survived long. The numbers just don’t work.
As for rigor-mortis and determining time of death it would be almost impossible to determine it. I am not a doctor and only a doctor (MD/ME) can state time of death. With those cold conditions rigor can begin within 10 minutes and btw…the faster rigor sets in…the faster it goes away – that has to do with the acid build up in the muscle tissue, etc. In river recoveries I have actually seen an expert factor in the amount of silt built up under the fingernails to aid in determining length in water…it is pretty morbid stuff but determining time of death is critical in a lot of cases.
Glenn on the first page of all this you posted a big long thing but in caps it says “Accept the fact SAR failed in it’s mission”…..Do you really think that?
439- As far as I know they are still able to talk with us all but I dunno, I have left a couple messages today with them and yet have not heard back…..Could have just gotten busy I dunno
[429] “425- No sign of fires at the campsites”
i’m intrigued. RRR, are you saying that evidence WAS found definitely indicating a James overnight campsite?
re:439 – I told him/her to take a walk earlier.
Joco, hang in there, we’re with ya!
443- I am saying there were no signs of fire along James treck that was tracked
443 – I did hear that there was an indentation where James likely slept that Saturday night – that was all I’d heard, though.
(441) based on what I knew at the time yes most definitely. Do I feel that now? Sure in some regards…
1) Katie and the kids were found by non SAR volunteers
2) James was first spotted by a non SAR resource
So in that regard I would say yes.
Do I think things could have been done better and could have saved James? I don’t know…
Did SAR do the best they could? I would say the feet on the ground did their very best – as always – however was their focus and coordination compromised? – maybe we need to find that out. Also would SAR have found them with better coordination before the volunteers did…who knows but worth looking into.
I have been very critical of Anderson and Sara R. from the beginning – with one-sided information and no response from either. My opinion on part of this equation is changing thanks to JoCoSAR but in whole I think we need to see the results of the investigation.
Joe Duck and a few others had startling insight on where to look for James…how did they come up with their assessment of where to look and SAR coordination did not? I think that is worth looking into.
Hope that gives a balanced response…in the beginning I was pretty angry with what I was hearing from locals and the press…I make no apologies for that…I think that collective anger (from many) caused this all to happen and ultimately I hope it will lead to something positive from this.
448- Very Good
449 – River, if you were to read back through all of the pages, you would start to see the gradual shift from many of us once we started hearing the other side. Jumping from Page One to Page Four is really and incredible leap in thoughts, actually 🙂 JoCo did much mind opening here.
[446] …. Maggie, that’s ALL that I heard too, until RRR’s [429] comment tonight. I cannot believe James could possibly have slept at all that freezing night. Wet & cold. Deathly worried as he must have been.
452- Yes I am seeing that as I sift threw the pages.
447…and, as Tara pointed out earlier, JoCoSar could be one of Joe’s alternate personalities. 🙂
wpflem (777, third comments), you wrote that “Kati will tell her story.” Will she give a real interview to a real reporter who will ask real questions? Look, this story was a national event. It’s a shame what happened, but her husband is being called a hero, when in fact both he and Kati ignored a whole series of warnings and simple common sense in their rush to reach that resort.
I realize that this is terrible knowledge, but that’s what tragedy is about. I think Kati’s got a bunch of questions to answer, and I hope she’ll do so in a candid interview.
1. Why did they ignore four warnings?
2. Why didn’t they pat attention to the weather forecast or to the snow falling outside their windows?
3. Why didn’t they have clothing adequate for a rainy night, let alone a snowy one?
4. Is it true that they had been on that road before, as Bob Hollenbeck has alleged?
5. Did she and her husband discuss their route?
6. Did they take Bear Camp Road by mistake or by design?
7. Why didn’t they fill up the gas tank in Roseburg?
8. Why did they keep on going when it should have been obvious that they were in trouble?
9. Given that your daughter had lived in Eugene, OR for quite a while, how is it that they wound up on the single most dangerous road through the Coast Range in the middle of the night, when other safe routes ae so well known?
People here will hate me for asking those questions, but I’m here to tell you that the VAST majority of people who still think about this tragedy have been asking questions like those. They boil down to: What in hell were they doing there to begin with?
It’s terrible that James Kim died, but three other people came close to dying, including two defenseless and completely dependent children. This is an issue of responsibility and negligence. Other people face it all the time.
p.s.: To all, I didn’t show up while Kati Kim’s father was here because I had gone to bed. Had I been on line, I wouldn’t have hesitated for a microsecond to post my questions. This Oprah gush-fest is outrageous and dishonest. Grow up!
452- I am just finding it very strange that some of the feelings you all voiced here were feelings of those that some felt while on the search and afterwards
454 – it is more a slog than a sift.
[451] …. Paul, I’m interested in knowing the truth. When I think I know what is, I’ll tell it like it is. Not beat around the bush with befuddlings.
457 – RRR, can you elaborate, please?
460 – That’s fine, I just don’t see why it is such a huge issue, male or female. It’s a tempest in a teapot for me.
462 – Hi Gayle! Yes, I’m very interested in that as well, River.
462- Well I asked Glenn about his comment of saying that SAR failed and if he really thought that……My feeling for about 2 weeks after the search was the same….That SAR….That “we” failed…..but I was feeling as from being someone on the inside working, so to hear (read) it from a bystanders point I find it interesting.
235 – Paul, I was wrong to have been hopeful this time.
Do I think now we failed……Not really
Pac I am almost starting to hope kati answers your ridiculous questions so maybe you realize how ignorant you sound.
But, I also hope she doesn’t, cause its not a requirement of her.
Who do you think you are? You really remind me of a wife-beater, and yes that is the truth, not a personal insult.
I’m just about sick of attitude.
435 – DH – Don’t keep apologizing for your earlier posts. I was pretty much outspoken myself about what had been published regarding SAR, things I couldn’t understand. And I should know better, as the media always says things that the persons involved are not allowed to respond to, so it’s usually one sided.
For me, one of the other lessons of this project is to be a more objective person when evaluating the first “facts” reported in cases such as these. The early reports were all we had to go on, and nobody wants to write posts full of weasel words like “alleged” and “it was reported”. I personally will try to be less scathing (as I was mostly elsewhere, not so much here) until I have heard something from the other side. My mistake was listening to what seemed like frank admissions from Sara that she was completely off the mark in the operation, overwhelmed, didn’t know what was going on, etc. That’s how it sounded, and that didn’t set well.
467 – River, from a personal standpoint, ouch! There are surely still some questions, but again, I do hope that if you read along with us, you’ll see where some failures that seemed certain have been called into question.
Mapper – has Pac EVER answered your questions about his/her qualifications?…about what makes him/her qualified to be the designated arbiter off what is most relevant and important?…No ??…yeah, I didn’t think so.
Thank you for laying out your qualifications so well. Nice to have a map expert in the fray given the topic at hand.
Thanks Paul. And, as I stare at this page, kind of with my head turned, like is this really happening…I remember he has not answered my questions at all.
mapper, I guess in addition to sociopath, cruel, heartless, abused child and acloholic, I can add wife beater to the list. Serial killer, anyone? 🙂
467 – Thank you, RRR. 🙂
464 – Hi, Maggie. 🙂
as an aside… is sleep deprivation starting to show on the board tonight…shortness we haven’t seen before here?
P.S.: I am utterly unqualified for anything, but in spite of that I remain the only poster who has offered ANY practical ideas that would save lives. As we all know, most of you have absolutely ZERO interest in doing that. You’d rather cry a river of tears for James Kim, Hero of the Woods than stoop to saving any lives.
471 – Mapper, remember when (maybe you don’t) I didn’t say anything when Pac piped up because I thought he’d go away with no response? Then at one point you mentioned that you say something because if any friend or relative of James or Kati were to read this, you would want them to know that someone said something and didn’t just let them trash the Kim’s that way?
It’s taken until now. You were right. I understand.
Pac, no one owes you any explanation.
479- Practical ideas are great Pac however what are you going to do with them once you have come up with them….That is what counts
476 – Just thought it a good time to remind you he’d dodged your very relevant inquiries.
469 – Maggie…I know, but I still greatly admire your doggedly hopeful nature. As to my being right, it’s just kind of sad.
479 – yes, Pac, we’ve heard the same and the same and the same. 🙄
455) That’s what I’m betting on, Paul! And… I proofread this!
477 – You forgot egocentric, narcissistic and grandiose.
Joe – I want to know why we are taken to task for name calling and Pac is allowed to engage in all manner of abuse and still post with impunity. I was deleted for such a post, yet if I went back through the last several thousands of posts I am certain I could pull enough of his abuse to curl anyone’s hair. It seems a double standard.
486 🙂 yeah that is kinda where I was going.
Gayle, I do wonder if the sleep deprivation is lending itself to some shortness tonight!
(481) u and I RogueRiverRat78 are cut from the same cloth.
Hey Pac your ideas and $1.50 will get you a nice cup of Dutch Bros coffee!
488 – No disrespect intended towards you nor your site, it is a great forum.
On Comment by PacNWer 456
It is not my place to provide information, speculate, or even ask her those same questions. Hey, this is her tale, she will choose how and when to tell the story. The only thing I can say is that I believe she will give an honest and very straight forward accounting of the ordeal.
490 – LOL, Glenn.
If I am to be of any help to anyone on any level, first I have to take care of me… going to get some Z’s. G’night all. 🙂
re483) Joe, does that pertain to everyone, or just me? I like you and your forum to put it bluntly, but should I be singled out? Am I being punished? I don’t care about me not posting on subject, but I do care about being singled out. Did I miss a public announcement by you not to post on subject? Thanks.
(494) I am sure Joe has his opinion but I think he is just recognizing your frustration with your loose lips! Loose lips sinks ships…
I don’t think it is punishment but just a clear reminder to tighten up your lips…you keep posting things that could compromise JoCoSAR…and besides that you make more work for Joe.
492 – Kati’s Dad, if you’ve stuck around even after that and so easily responded as you did, then I think you are through about the worst of what folks here have worried about you reading, and I know even more that much of Kati’s courage and strength must have come right from you (not that this is much compared to what you’ve been through, but not everyone would stay and respond at all). Anyway, I’m glad that you are here.
So Pac, you say you have no qualifications in this area at all….you must do something. I mean, you think your ideas are the only practical ones and that none of us have any interest in saving lives, at all. What is your basis or life experience for all of these things you present as so factual? Please, we need some background on Pac to better understand your stance and brilliance.
495) Well, I still feel singled out. Don’t pull any punches. I mean lots of other people are perfect. That’s how I’m feeling. You know, I feel bad enough about it already, believe me. But in the end, i am only concerned with the opinion of the subject theirself.
(492) Your example of restraint is impressive. I think you are a hero too!
🙂
(498) Don’t blow sunshine…don’t pull any punches…
In that one particular incident you were singled out – heck you even pointed it out – TWICE.
Glad you did and Joe took care of it.
I wouldn’t sweat it too much. Tomorrow is another day.
It’s best that I will be on vacation for a few days. You probably would not believe how I have tried to make up for this. But one things for sure, I need to walk away for a while . I don’t need my dam computer screen making me cry.
492 – You have character, class, courage and admirable restraint. I applaud heartily your response. Thank you again for being with us.
496 – What would I add ?..you say it so well.
497 – ditto.
490 – Glenn, I’m sorry. It has to be said. Then I’ll go back on topic. Please do not ever use Pac and Dutch Brothers in the same sentence again because if the association begins, all of my mornings will not be OK. Driving through Dutch Brothers is an almost religious experience – now almost sullied. Please stop. OK, I’m back on signs and maps!
[492] – Kati’s Dad… you set a badly needed good example here giving a civil & responsible response to a NW’r post. Thank you. Best wishes to you and your wonderful girls.
501 – We are all more than a little tired, and last time I checked, you had something like a half dozen trees fall on your house. I’m sorry your feeling dumped on, it’s probably a misunderstanding. We like your participation.
503 – I needed some levity…I’m in stitches.
Paul 488 is a fair question about why some comments were deleted and others have not been and I’m not sure I have a good answer, but here are some factors. Also note I’m not deleting much right now unless it addresses identities of people.
1) This is my blog but it’s not my job – I try to read everything and get in a few comments but it would be very hard to take the time to review all the comments and delete and edit according to an objective standard, even if I had one.
2) I don’t have a good objective standard. When this started I thought it would go to a few hundred comments at most. By tomorrow we’ll probably top 4000. I’ve never even seen that at *any* blog let alone mine.
3) For reasons that are confusing me (cuz I’m a pretty objective guy) I do not agree with many of the regular posters here about what is abusive stuff vs spirited and mean-spirited criticism. Former is bad, latter is acceptable.
If somebody says to me “Joe’s idea is idiotic and is based on foolish assumptions” I do not consider that abusive (just mean), but if they say “Joe is an idiot” I say it is abusive. Maybe I’m hanging out with Silicon Valley types too much, but it’s considered good form to bash ideas and bad form to bash people and I agree with that standard, especially in this blog style discussion.
4) I’ve left in criticism of Kati and James because it’s relevant to the discussion. That was a tricky decision and I almost went the other way, deleting the many mean spirited comments that appear to have little regard for the fragile emotions in play, especially in the families. I was very happy to see Dr. Fleming handle questions so gracefully and I’m confident Kati can handle her critics without suffering emotional damage.
Also, deleting all the objectionable stuff would defy the very spirit of the online community that creates blogs in the first place and I think it’s part of why so many are here to listen to the dialog and participate. Also, I really think (or maybe I just hope?) that James and Kati, both very enthusiastic online people, would understand this. James was, after all, a blogger himself.
Yikes… part II tomorrow night, OK Paul?
DH,
I do apolgize, please dont take it so seriously. I just made one comment earlier, and please understand you were not so nice in the beginning here. No one wants you to cry and go away, at all. Theres a lot going on here, your definitley not singled out 🙂
507 – Joe, thank you again. This is amazing. At least we haven’t hit 1000 on this page yet, so you get a little rest.
So how can you all tell where the hits are on the page??
510 – River, I meant that we had not gotten up to the magic 1000 posts mark on this page – which is when Joe starts setting up another whole page.
How many hits to the blog itself Joe can tell you. I think he said 5000 today??
Ahhh Ok…I get it now….let me just tuck my blonde roots back in
(510) I use a crystal ball…
507 – Part II 🙂 ?
Joe want to clarify I had no problem with you deleting what you deleted of mine. I guess where we differ is under your #3 above, I still feel Pac routinely & flagrantly steps over the line, but it is your blog so I won’t belabor the point. I wasn’t looking for mass deletions, just fairness.
Joe, I hope Kati can take it.
My reasoning for taking Pac so seriously, is because I am a woman of Kati’s age…a strong woman. But I have also suffered loss and people like that really can get to you no matter how strong you are.
I’m so happy Dr. Fleming is there for Kati, and is here a picture of restraint.
But, I know at times I have also needed a voice, to keep me grounded, that the criticism was unfair and uncalled for. Kati owes no one anything, she did not decieve anyone.
I am not asking you to delete pacs words.
Just understand my position, I hope.
Thanks for the blog, and thanks Maggie too, we seem to be on the same page about that!
I’m trying to stay away from personally insulting pac, but I do sense he is an abusive person…hey my minor was sociology okay. And I am just calling that out, though I guess it is a personal insult and for that I apolgize.
glenn – you have email
D.H. 494 – D.H. I’m really sorry to have upset you over this and of course I mean that *everybody* should work hard to preview comments and make sure they do not address the identity of other posters. Glenn understood my concerns in his comment 495.
Thanks Paul. Frankly, I’m at the point where I’ll probably delete only the comments that might compromise identities. So go ahead and repost whatever I deleted earlier and it’ll probably stay up!
518 – Joe, do you really want to run around licensing us quite that way? 😉
RRR – the software here is called “WordPress” and as the blog owner I can use a control panel to access statistics about how many people visit per day.
518 – Nah, I’m going to try to adhere to a higher standard and not stoop to the low level of my antagonist. We can all take a lesson from the amazing & admirable restraint displayed by Kati’s dad. If he can exhibit such self-control, I can do no less than try to emulate him.
Ha Maggie – sure, just look how well you have handled the emoticons!
okay so anyway, pac I am still deeply interested in what is you do. I really want to know your factual basis for why you think none of us care about lives being saved, and why your approach is so practical.
Simply changing the ODOT map, to make the warnings better, could be done in one work day by the right person…certainly not expensive. Are you saying that would be counter-productive to saving lives?
521 – Paul, I’m picking the middle again. I’ll say something, but it may only be 🙄 instead of nothing since that didn’t work. Maybe now that the questions have been put out there, the need to demand answers on those points will lessen (still hopeful me!).
522 – Yes, Joe, we’ve been very responsible with the emoticons 8)
Guess last night is getting everyone…..falling asleep at the computer
Still awake…barely
Glenn u still here??
I’m barely here…
Maggie you’re hopefulness is inspiring. If Pac cannot respect the answer from Kati’s dad then I think we should all just give up on him. My guess is he will be unable to.
Pretty sure Glenn is 2 timezones east of us, but he was here late last night.
SO just to touch on you never know who is watching or reading these…..Just and FYI I heard today that the blog has been printed out and is at folks interviews for the investigation….Just shows ya you never know who is watching
Wow, River. I do hope that it’s because we’ve brought up good questions.
I don’t really know the reason for it, I am sure that they are just monitoring what folks who are on the front line and letting others know.
Rumor is because JoCoSAR got in trouble for talking so much about it on here
Well, it is nice to get the attention, but beyond some people perhaps participating who were told not to, how could the blog help them with an official investigation into what went wrong ?…if anything did ? We are merely speculating and discussing on what was reported elsewhere. Seems almost kind of desperate and/or a bit too “big brother is always watching ” for me.
Well I don’t really care, I haven’t said anything I wouldn’t say to anyone’s face……
Watch your back RRR….don’t want you to get caught in the middle of something messy.
Honestly I am not worried like I said I have not said anything out of line that I wouldn’t have or will say to anyone else.
However I must call it a night for tonight….Last night is catching up with me very quickly
534 – I had a feeling that was going to happen. He/she was just a bit too forthcoming with very specific info that, given the quasi gag order, was sure to come back and bite him/her. Not that I think that is right or anything…if it’s all true, why should it matter ?
Thats the thing it dosen’t matter the point of the whole thing is to get the truth out…….if you speak the truth then you have nothing to hide
lol…yes I am still worried that if this got really big my friends, ex’s, family would know what I am doing (and trashing a certain ex’s fire department in the early pages). I certainly do like my anonyimity here (I know I spelled that wrong…). I dont think anyone I know would really care about me posting here, but still, its a little weird to think that I have given enough away for someone to figure out who I am…gosh, I just hope that person is not pac and he comes to find me ….hahaha. sorry but I have thought about that.
RRR…I hope none of this is used against you. It does sound a bit “big brother” to me too.
I always did get the feeling this was attracting attention though, this has been a great, no, excellent group.
539 – ditto for me too. You have a nice evening there on the beautiful Rogue…need to get my permit application in for this summer.
Goodnight all – this goose is cooked, too.
Goodnight Maggie….clear night on M.T.
542- Don’t sweat it……The whole techno world could be watching and using cyber monkeys to transport info to big brother….We speak the truth and our opinions are ours you can’t hold that against us!
543- better get it in or I will take all avalaible for myslef 🙂
MT? Do you mean Lisa? 😉
546 – You are commercial, you get a set allocation no matter what I thought. A sore subject with private boaters like me, but not really, you need to have that assurance to run your business…I am just jealous.
Nah I don’t run the lower with my work, I was talking about just for me personally!!!
But do make sure you stop in for your world famous galice burger and an ice cream cone!
547 – man it is late…yes…she’s on MT, you’re WA CO, I’m in SW…need sleep.
Good Night you all and I will catch up in the morning…….
549 – Every time I am down there, without fail…stop at the resort, then onto Argo to gear up and float my favorite river.
552-This year you will have to stop long enough to say Hi, put a face with a name 🙂 Good Night
Thanks folks and have a good night!
Dr. Fleming, this may sound strange, but I hope Kati writes a book if she decides she wants to discuss her ordeal. It might be therapeutic and would certainly be of interest to others. On the down side, some would protest that she was taking advantage of a tragedy, which is simply petty and small. It would also be a tribute to James for his daughters. I have no doubt that she would be honest and open, should she choose to do this.
Good night, all, Joe has tucked everyone in. I’m writing the last post number down to see what the posting gremlins put up overnight.
Madeleine
Thats funny…posting gremlins. I’m still working, crazy, trying to figure something out that is driving me nuts.
Anyway, I would read Kati’s book too. And your right, some might criticize that too. I know this could be a life changing event, who knows what it might inspire her to do. I do hope that eventually, after the pain subsides, it is an inspiration of sorts. Perhaps she will find herself interested in new causes, or maybe even a proponent of some ideas we talk about here…I bet she has some pretty good ideas herself, which I would love to hear.
If I were her, right now…I know how I would be feeling, at least pretty sure. I would never want to set foot in oregon again. (no offense to oregon) but I know I would not feel the same about adventuring and camping. I’d probably want to hide away with my family, or alone, and knowing me, well I would probably spend about 2 months in sweats on the couch too. But she probably can’t do that. She probably is stronger than myself too. But I can’t help but jump to her defense anyway. I know that girl would never purposefully put herself, her babies and her husband at risk. I’m positive of that.
Back to work!
(556) I’m awake…really…hey what did I miss?
Having heard many of the details of the case, I think it very desirable for Kati to detail their family tragedy in a book. I think there is so much inspiration in the way they cared for the children and cared for each other.
I do think it would be counter-productive for her to be agressively questioned by a reporter acting in mean-spirited style like a prosecuting attorney.
The issue of whether or not James should be considered a hero, in my opinion, should be left to individual opinion.
I was personally struck by what Kati posted in a public forum well before their vacation entrapment. This has been previous posteed here:
“My Husband
He brings me a latte every morning and takes out the trash. He also does dishes and keeps the kids company so I can hang out on Yelp. Plus, he helps me keep my drawers organized and doesn’t get mad when I buy clothes. He occassionally brings me a new ipod, filled with songs I’ve never heard before.
Back off, ladies. You wish.”
This Father-in-law responds, “What chivalrous behavior. In a bygone era, James surely would have been called Sir and dressed in shining armour. He would have been honored as a knight most worthy of his Lady–I’m not sure what the Korean equivalent would be.”
Kati and James made some decisions that dreadful night that ended up placing them all in serious jepardy. I personally believe both he and Kati dealt with the consequences in heroic fashion. Penelope was strong and supportive. And baby Sabine? Well, she was just a cold and hungry baby girl.
558 – Kati’s Dad, if anyone could say it in a book, it would be Kati. When I read what Kati wrote about James as a husband, it really struck me, too. Not only because of what it said about James but because of what it said about Kati just for saying it. The bit of humor included was just a bonus.
Like most of us here, I’d join you in saying that both James and Kati were indeed heroic, to.
Thank you for being here!
At some point someone (I think Pac) implied Kati owes answers because the media made this a national story. Kati owes the media and the public NOTHING beyond what she chooses to share. Unlike those in Hollywood, she did not willingly choose the intense media scrutiny that befell her. She should do what she feels is best for her and, most especially, her children. The only reason I could possibly think of for her to speak out would be to defend or explain the decisions of that night and to speak for he who can no longer step up to defend himself. The when, and with who of doing that is entirely up to her to choose, if she chooses to do so at all.
Paul, well said. She OWES no explanation.
ref note 560 12/29/06
Kati’s Dad: I think there is only one, maybe 2, people on this forum who have said she “owes” anything. Don’t take that seriously at all. Any time something is available for public consumption, you get all kinds.
Ultimately, this case got people’s attention for so many different reasons. For me, as a mother of a 15 month old living in San Francisco area, my heart went out to another mother in dire straits. I pictured Kati desperately tryingto keep her little ones alive in the cold. (I remember hoping that she was a nursing mother.) I looked on the internet for more information about the ordeal, found the jamesandkati website and others, and it just went from there–learning more about this very appealing family, the heroic efforts of the SAR, the tragedy of James not making it, the story about the story, it just all snowballed and so here I am almost into the next year still reading.
Kati’s primary concern now is providing for children. I was very impressed with how much she worked to keep their two businesses afloat when got home to San Francisco.
I definitely plan on visiting their stores.
Kati’s Dad –
I wanted to write in regard to your curiousity about why
this story has interested and captivated the public so…
I think there are numerous reasons why so many people
were drawn to the story. I know my own, and I have heard
reasons from others here. Many of us have lost loved ones
in traumatic circumstances… Some loved James from his work… Some of us have Korean ties… Some have local ties… Some have precious young children… Some are SAR volunteers… Most all of us care deeply… Many fit more than just one of those descriptions…
But I really think the overall greatest reason had to
do with the pictures of James, Kati, and the girls. You
could tell how happy they were – you could tell truly how much love was there.
There is magic in those pictures… There is their own
unique special magic – that made caring people care more,
and curious people more curious…
The amazing story which unfolded afterwards was another
compelling aspect…
But I live in Portland and I was caught up in profound caring and concern for your daughter’s family, as soon as
I saw those pictures on the news, which was the first night
it was announced that they were missing…
They looked like people I would/could care about. They
looked like people who could be friends of mine…
But mostly it was the undeniable magic of their own
unique happiness and love… It’s transcendent, in
way that makes you want to reach for the stars…
You can see it when you look at those little girls…
And I don’t think you have to worry about the girls
receiving too much media attention in the future – time
moves on, attention will lessen, new compelling stories
will capture the public’s attention.
Even if Kati were to write a book, what the media always
focuses on the most, is a current, unfolding story…
Once these investigations are complete and made known,
I believe that most of the attention will fade quickly,
but those of us who care will do our best to honor their
story, and Kati and James, in our hearts, and by trying
to do something that could really make a difference…
I saw the benefit auction thats coming up for kati and the girls. Appears that it will do well.
563 – Kati’s Dad, I’m impressed, too! That takes a combination of courage, strength, and probably a bunch of other qualities to jump back in after such an ordeal and take care of business (lame pun intended). I know that Kati said she wasn’t sure she could do it (another comment from Kati on Yelp was posted here on Page Two, comment 1146), but it sounds very much like she can, and I agree that the stores she and James started together are a gift in quite a few ways. Thank you again for being here and sharing your thoughts.
565 – Lisa, very well put.
565
What we weren’t able to do for James in time, we still
want to try to do…
558 – Kati’s Dad, re: what you said about Kati being cross examined, that’s what I was thinking, too. It seems that if a book preceded any interviews, it would be easier to keep the “journalists” from going afield looking for a sensational aspect of the incident. And the book would stand, in the end, as Kati’s account of what happened, period. Thanks for sharing your insights here, I know it must be puzzling, frustrating and very difficult to see so much of your family’s personal life up for discussion.
I agree that if Kati’s chooses to write a book, a lot of
people would be inspired by the details of their story,
and Kati’s words, and would want to read it. And I don’t
think that would bring too much additional media coverage,
because I think most of that is complete.
571
(Just say no to Barbara Walters!)
A book would be good. It would help to support the kids financially, and that’s a good thing also. Some people have surmised that since Mr Kim is involved that no funds are needed by Kati’s kids, I have come to believe that might not be totally true. So I now encourage any funds donated to Kati’s children, or any funds from book etc. for kid’s futures.
572 – And I think I’d skip Nancy Grace, too, though she can be entertaining when she has her sights set on somebody we don’t like (OJ, Scott Peterson, etc.) There must be some objective journalists out there still.
I think a book would help Kati do justice to their story…
Welcome back D.H.
Top of the morning to everyone
I posted earlier on about retracing their driving choices to get a better understanding of how and why they made the decisions they did and ulimately how they ended up where they were.
Is there anyone out here with specific local knowledge willing to try the exercise and maybe Mapper can take the information and create a map showing the path we think and the assumptions that could have been made a different turn junctions, etc…?
I think if a television interview were ever chosen to
be done, Anne Curry is the most compassionate and
non-invasive interviewer. She really seems to respect
people’s boundaries, unlike some, who just like to go
for any controversy and ratings. Again, though – that’s
not necessary – it would be a personal decision. A book,
if chosen, could say everything she wants to say.
If I may ask Mapper? I’m a map lover. I spend hours looking at maps just for fun. I’m sort of a roadgeek and in a newsgroup related to roads others sat that map companies sometimes strategically place errors on their maps to protect from copyright infringement. If another company, or person, makes a map from theirs, the hidden errors will prove if it is a copy or not. Is this true? If so, does ODOT make their own maps or do they hire a map company to do it? I’d hate to think they would do this in an area like Bear Camp road in future updates. I realize this is not part of what happened with the Kims, but just wanted to know if it is true that companies do that?
579- I agree Lisa Ann Curry would be a great person for an interview……I have met her in person and she is all you say.
Why am I hooked on this story? I don’t know, but it just grabs me, and I can’t let it go until I know what happened.
glenn – don’tcha know?? 🙂 Good morning…great conversation. Just wanted to say hello and I am still here watching. I have almost had to remove my keyboard from my computer to avoid response at times! My most difficulty comes with my desire to speak more with Dr. Fleming!! Personal closure, I suppose. Anyway, I miss you all!
578 – Glenn, I’m hoping to do just that, retrace the path(s) but not until about August. By then, it might be more difficult to understand markings as the Kim’s were seeing because I do hope that there will be better signs…
579) Anne’s from Ashland, also.
578) That would take a very objective point of view. Interesting tho. Personally I’m quite curious to hear Kati’s story on that subject.
583 – we miss you too, hope all is well. Isn’t Dr. Fleming a class act? This is a terrible hardship for Kati and the kids, but it is consoling knowing there is that caliber of support there.
583) Miss you too, but I’m not supposed to talk about you. 🙂
583 – Hi JoCo. We miss you. Glad you are reading along, and sorry it’s got to be making you nuts not to respond. Hoping things are OK for you.
578 – I suspect RRR knows those roads better than just about anyone posting, but has a business to run so…
589- I am telling ya I am going to start a tour buisness of the area….sign up early!
(580) That is an old yellow pages trick…they used to place bogus listings in to see who would steal their data…I wonder if they do that with maps too…
(583) eh? LOL
(584) Exactly my point…pretty soon it will be more changed than it is already. Maybe Bob can shed some light.
590) Well RRR, let the tourists think that it’s a round trip tour. Then at the top of Big Windy, just let them off and drive off. Just kidding.
RRR when is Bear Camp usually clear enough to go over to Coast from Galice – late May? Right now could you get all the way over with 4WD and chains?
😈
595- It would be risky with even a 4WD and chains right now, the main road of bear camp is actually closed because of a slide (its and annual closing) However how others get lost and stuck is there is a road that goes AROUND the closure and still sticks ya on all them spur roads.
Late May would be a safe guess…It really depends on the winters we have and how fast the snow melts and what damage has happened to the road during
Is it really true that 5000 different people were looking
at this yesterday?
Or it that just different hits, sometimes same people?
typo –
Or ‘is’ that just different hits… etc.!
597 – RRR / Rand is always telling me they want to fix and/or reroute Bear Camp due to the slides but there is no money. Has there been any change on that ? The Peavine / Serpentine (wrong spelling I know) detours are awful.
600- Peavine is still as bad as it has ever been…..Bear Camp’s “slide” that had it closed FOREVER has been fixed and is nice, however they still close it in the winter for “precaution” cause it can always slide in the winter….In a nutshell….NO CHANGE
Lisa RE: blog stats. I should not have written “5000 people” above. The stats for yesterday showed 5459 “views” which probably means “pages viewed”. One person could view several pages or log on many times as many of you appear to be doing, and this would mean fewer total people. I don’t get a “visits” stat from WordPress though I may set that up later.
Is BLM 34-8-36 a dead end? Would most locals who went
down it intentionally return on it as well – so there
would usually be two sets of tire tracks?
602
Still – that’s a lot more than I realized were still
reading!
I have to keep that in mind!
603- There are miles and miles of 34-8-36 without a map right here in front of me I couldn’t tell ya if for sure it is a dead end…..
603 – Lisa, BLM 34-8-36 is not a dead end, and there is more than one way to loop around. Not saying any of the roads would be easy to do that, but it does loop and connect at other points from what I could see.
602 – Joe, can I assume refreshing the page doesn’t count in the stats? If it does, I’d count for about 4,999 of those 🙂
I know this is off-topic…but breaking news…Sodamned is about to be executed.
(600) Paul what about the detours? Do they increase the distance traveled? Have they been upgraded at all with signage? How obvious is it when you end up on the detour?
603 / Lisa: you really should Google map it and zoom in. I was not exaggerating when I say it looks like spagetti. The network of spurs off that road speaks loudly to how and why so many get lost up there. I am sure RRR can address this more knowingly than I, being right at the base of Bear Camp.
Interesting:
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_122906_news_tillamook_rescue.58d6566c.html
Is there a part of SAR that involves an outdoor/field type of detective work when looking at evidence?
609 – I should defer to RRR on your question as this last summer I was not on BC, having departed the Rogue through Powers route North. The detours did increase the distance considerably, but had seemingly been fixed before the Kims headed up BC. The signage is not very good, IMHO, although I did not get lost.
611 – Quite impressive considering the Alzheimers.
614 – Paul, it was Lou Gehrig’s (ALS), not Alzheimers. Thank goodness he could still use his hands. Amazing though, huh?
609- Yes the detours increase the milage….No it is not always obvious when you are on a detour sometimes the only difference is paved verse a dirt road, and the signage stinks……Detours in the woods are not marked like detours in the city, sometimes you are luck if you get a sign during the detour usually it is just at major intersections
613 et al // RRR – sorry to pass these queries to you, but you can’t get much closer to BC than you are, and if you ARE Galice, your shuttle drivers are up there a lot and I just assume you know the area far better than I, though I know it pretty well.
617- Its ok I accept it 🙂
RRR – Do you have any opinions on why most locals would
go down 34-8-36 and how far they would go?
618 – I will definitely pay you a visit this summer and identify myself. Even when we strike out on the lottery I pick up cancellations and head down in late summer or fall. A lot of the faces in the resort seem to have changed over the years, so am unsure if it has changed hands or if it is a generational thing. Have been coming there since 1982, when BC was still gravel (egad that was bad).
Sorry am off topic, will stop.
619- You have to remember at ONE point that road was gated and usually is closed……My opinion and guess would be that it is a road less traveled usually and when closed off if you have snowmobile or some fun winter toy it would be the place to be because you would want untouch less crowded areas. As to how far down they would go I dunno…….When you go out to play like 4 wheeling or snowmobiling how far would you go???
Paul would you share your email with me ??
(621) Bob H. has stated over and over again that the road is never gated nor locked and hasn’t been for years…Do you know how long ago it was gated or locked? Bob H. any thoughts?
623- I couldn’t tell ya
621
Thanks! I was just curious if you had ideas of what
the average behavior was on that road.
Bob Hollenbeck said he has never seen it gated.
Have you seen it gated?
Also, what are the causes of most of the SAR operations
on Bear Camp?
And Thank You Again! We are so lucky to have someone
who knows these things!
625- Most of our operations on Bear Camp are looking for overdue people who either used that route to get the coast, or were doing some outdoor activity such as hunting, snowmobiling, 4 wheelling, or those who go out to just play in the snow and wondered to far….I think that really covers most of our missions on there
Maggie RE: Pageviews and refreshes – yes, probably a refresh ads a page view to the stats. Normally “view” means a download of one .htm file but I’m not sure it that is how WordPress is keeping the stats. This page we are on is a single, fairly large htm file.
583 – JoCo, glad you are still here and didn’t gnaw off your fingers trying to keep from posting!! I would have been sitting there muttering to myself as I read, no doubt.
I’m trying to remain optimistic that any government entity or designee in recorded history will have a report completed when projected (I’m not talking about your part, but the reviewers). There are times when I’m working on a project and I want to shake everyone and yell “CAN WE JUST GET ON WITH IT, PLEASE??” It’s better to have a complete report than a hurried one, but I hope it does come on the 5th. If for no other reason, I don’t want to think of you gnawing and muttering while we wait.
628- Don’t worry JoCo’s fingers are gnawed off JoCo is still dialing the phone 🙂
627 – Joe, I refresh the page often, or I go to my handy desktop icon for the current page and go in that way. Both would show as traffic, I guess. Knowing how many different people came in would be interesting. Also, time of posts would be nice if it showed with the dates, but I do love your simple, easy to navigate format.
629- aren’t
Well its time to put myself together for the day…I will check back with you all later.
626
RRR – Do most of the people get lost off road or on
the roads?
And are most locals or visitors?
(Just rough percentages…!)
Reminding folks that Google Earth is a fantastic program (as in “WoW!, this is amazing!”.
It is free here: http://earth.google.com/
This program allows you to see the roads we are talking about – start by typing in “Galice Oregon”.
For another neat view of the roads go to this Google maps view: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=merlin,+oregon&ie=UTF8&z=12&ll=42.57154,-123.651466&spn=0.10796,0.346069&t=h&om=1
Note that you can “drag” the map around and zoom in and out.
629 – R3, I’ll bet!!
(634) Yes Joe it is amazing…however it would be great if someone would lay out a potential path taken by the Kim’s.
Glenn a guy has some of the data here that should load into Google Earth automatically:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=709179
WAIT – some of this is WRONG… I can’t check now but I thought there was an updated Google Earth file with the key items. This is NOT it.
(580)
Yep. Actually, its often just cartographers acting alone, that will add little mistakes on purpose. This is their way of “signing” the map since they can’t actually put their name on it, especially if it is a big atlas. They can say, look mom, I made this map and I can prove it….
I dont know if this is as common as it used to be and I didn’t want to bring it up, but almost did just to point out that humans are actually drawing some of those lines by hand, and sometimes throwing in a few surprises too!
As for ODOT, more than likely they have a few people, a collection of GIS and computer science people, probably some with geography/cartography backgrounds like me that do their maps. That big road map has probably seen a few different hands taken to it to make updates and changes. Its possible they have hired consultants to do the maps, but doubtful. I’m sure I could find out!
Put that on my to do list.
I just called the Forest Service to ask why the signs on
Bear Camp haven’t been changed even though, as it said
in that local editorial, many locals have been complaining
about them being inadequate warnings for years.
I was told that the two people who are usually in charge
of Public Affairs are on vacation till the 8th. There’s
someone else I could talk to later today, but it sounds
like he may not know as much.
I know that other officials are also looking into the
signage issue, but I thought it might be good for some
additional public inquiry.
Plus I’m just curious! I want to hear the reasons why the
signs haven’t been changed, if they really plan to
change them, and when that would happen.
And I will follow-up!
633- I would say that we are proberly 50/50 for those who get lost from locals to tourist….Those who are 4 wheeling or something of the sort are usualy on skid roads (off the main road) stuck in mud or snow or turned around….Tourist are usually ran out of gas lost and stuck…..
Aahhh… more guy talk today… 🙂
Taking off for Medford now…
With more emergency gear than any one person should ever have…
Later….
622 / RRR – If I send it to the resort e-address will you get it ? I am going to try that since you are away for a bit.
RRR and Paul if you want me to pass along email addresses I will…no prob.
RRR you can email me at: glennforum at yahoo
And I will pass it along to Paul.
D.H. Please drive carefully and safely!
642- I will get it evenutually from the resot email
Thanks Glenn, have not tried the resort address yet, will wait to hear via you unless RRR says that will work.
(580)
here is some more info about ODOT and the GIS department
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/odotgis.shtml#About_the_ODOT_GIS_Unit
I will take some more time myself to look at it, but thought this might help you to see how things are setup.
Send it to Glenn if that is more direct/faster…works for me.
640
Thank you RRR!
Are most cases easier SAR because usually people are on
roads?
http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCMap.asp?mainNav=RoadConditions&curRegion=7
I thought this was worth posting again. Notice Bear Camp Road is not noted as “closed” and Bob H. had asked them why and they responded with something along the lines of…that is a federal road and we can’t say if it is closed or not. (the actual response is on another page of comments here).
This is an example of confusion of government agencies in that area and how that could affect travellers and JoCo SAR (and other county SAR’s in that area).
Also notice, unlike the google maps, you wont see the level of detail on the ODOT maps neccessary to really make a good judgement about that area, in particular, I mean you might not realize your entering the “spaghetti bowl” Paul speaks of.
Again, it is a challenge for ODOT to do this right, so I dont completley fault them, but I still want to point this out.
649- Well of course it is always easier when people are just stuck in snow on a road HOWEVER there is always the element of WHICH road unless they are able to communicate what FS road sign they saw last
651
I know that is kind of a common sense question, but
I just wanted to get a feel for how difficult and
complicated most other SAR operations are compared
to the Kim case.
652- Each SAR case stands alone there is never the same case twice even if the general info of “Stuck on Bear Camp” is the “mission” there are always TONS of variables for each search, weather, people & resources available, what were the people doing at the time of getting lost, are they wanted people, do they want to be found, how much info we get from dispatch or family members and so on
653- That helps a lot!
Do you think that after this, SAR may train in
the drainage at all?
In some ways, this story could contribue to the
general public not going in the drainage, but then
again – they might get curious. I guess you never
know for sure what might happen.
636 – Glenn, when I get home, I have mapped out two possible routes in Google Earth that I can post.
Kati’s Dad,
Well, all along I have said Kati owes no one an explanation, so of course I am with you all on that! 🙂
I have to admit I was lurking around on some of the MT boards last night and I did see what I was afraid of, some people outright saying, they thought James estate (how they put it) should be charged for the search.
I find this just disgusting of course, as I have said their was no deception (as in the runaway bride case for example).
People seem to have dropped that nasty line of thinking and for that I am glad, but it does worry me there is that sort of thinking out there, that some might liken an innocent traveller, lost, for reasons most of us out of towners would get lost for (I assume). I mean, it really could happen to any of us, but especially those of us who are travelling in the area. Its hardly fair to compare that to, say, a drunk driver.
Also, I can’t even fathom how hard it was for James and Kati to care for the kids during those days alone in the car, in the cold. I have gotten into some sticky situations but never had to worry about a child, that changes everything! I had to go without food for 3 days once, and once I set my mind to it, and knew in 3 days I would have a meal, I was okay. But, I don’t think you can really say that to a little baby…
Anyway…I have to say, and I hope it’s okay. After reading Kati’s review of her husband. He was a hero…nothing short of a dreamboat I must say!! 🙂 She was right to feel protective of him (“back off ladies!”)
654- I do know that some of our specialty teams are planning to train in the following year in the drainage, they have trained in Taylor Creek which is I believe east of BC which is very much the same terrain as Big Windy.
I believe the story will do two fold…..just as you said people will NOT go into it and yet people will GO into it, just to say it wasen’t that tough what was there problem, and they will either be ok or we will end up going in again.
657- Thanks!
Can you say if you were in there or not?
658- Yes I can say I was NOT in the big windy creek area.
655 – I should have said that one path is the typically assumed route with the turn onto the BLM, and the other still makes that turn but then travels differently than to end in the same exact location (that’s how I knew the road looped). I mentioned it somewhere around page 2 or 3 and posted a picture. As I said then, I’m in no way even speculating that an alternate route was taken, but I was just curious if there was another way to get there, and there was, at least whenever the satellite picture was taken(in fact there were a few ways), but it is really interesting to actually follow the paths in Google Earth to get a rough idea. I’ll post it tonight.
(578)
Glenn, sorry I missed that, still sorta catching up! Looks like Maggie has taken this task. Well, I certainly think its worthwhile to first take the ODOT map, then surmise from that, its all the info you have and figure your about to take the route (get the old imagination going).
Then, take the google stuff, the spaghetti bowl and see how easy it would be to turn off the “route” that is on the ODOT map.
I bet there would be a few places that would show to be highly suspect. (but you already know this I am sure)
I’d like to overlay the ODOT map with some of the census road files or the satellite stuff……but that won’t be possible with my schedule 🙂
I am thinking there is probably a state ArcIMS site where I can get a look at this…will look that up and post later (a website where I can overlay the odot data on satellite stuff)
I say this because I think its important to use the source that they had (odot) with what is (satellite info would be the best way, I think, to see the spur roads, or the census data…from what I have seen so far)
659-
One last question for me, and then I’ll check back
in later!
RRR do think of that fork being a place where people
commonly make a mistake and turn right on 34-8-36?
663- Yes I do
662- mapper, I think your mapping skills are so amazing!
I have never heard so much about it before. But you, like
RRR and so many others, are such a resource here because
of your special knowledge!
Thanks Lisa!
Well, I was just like others who have mentioned they are “map nerds” (okay so they didn’t exactly say that) and then I found out its actually a career (I was like…you can major in geography!? But I love geography, that sounds like fun)…so maybe those people that find they love maps might think about putting those skills to work! Majoring in geography is the best way to start (4 year program), and then also pair it with some computer science courses.
Its not always fun or exciting, but its very challenging and its a growing field too. Just thought I would throw that out there if anyone is following along and thinking about the future!
666- With my involvment with SAR I have found many a “NERD” of maps, compass, paper pushing, ect….They are a wealth of knowledge and frankly I HATE MAP & COMPASS so I will leave it up to you all now since you have a love for it 🙂 Don’t get me wrong I can map and compass with the best but I would rather not
667 –
haha…yeah, once I met my 12 classmates in undergrad out of 20,000 in the school I realized…well not everyone thinks geography is fun! Were a fun group though!
Mapper, I wish I’d have realized this back in college. I took some geography classes focused mainly on Asia for one of my majors, but this kind of thing seems way more fun to me than what I learned then. I’m *always* looking at maps – can study them for hours for no good reason whether places I’ve been, never been, will visit, have no desire to visit doesn’t matter, still interesting. I think part of it is because I am perpetually lost and just think that if I study and memorize a map I’ll be OK – doesn’t work, but still fun!
I shall catch up with you all later, I am heading into town to meet up with JoCoSAR—TTFN
670 – Send JoCo our “miss you’s!”
In that case Maggie, you should have no regrets. When you have to stare at them all the time at work, your so busy thinking about creating them and how to make them understandable, and focusing on peoples reactions, and then going back to the drawing board to change or refine….you dont spend a lot of time anymore just studying them like a casual observer would, and that is part of the fun!
I wonder if chef’s feel this way about food…God I hope not, note to self…never become chef.
672 – Very true, I bet. I will not become a barista, either. 🙂
[669] …. Maggie, I just checked in and see your “I’m *always* looking at maps – can study them for hours for no good reason whether places I’ve been, never been, will visit, have no desire to visit doesn’t matter, still interesting.”
Fits me totally! probably many other posters here too.
Since we’re discussing maps, (BTW, thanks mapper!) Both the Rand McNally Road Atlas and the American Map co. atlases show Bear Camp as a scenic route to the coast. They’re not shown as being the same type of road as 42 though.
66o , it might have been in the MT forum, but a local called “Rogue Fly” said the other possible ways to the point they were found would require a 4wd truck. Their car wouldn’t make it that way. He/she sounded quite confident that they went through the fork we all know about now. I think I believe him/her.
I’ve many times taken a road shown on a map as rough, perhaps hazardous, knowing well I was taking some chance. But always glad I that had the opportunity to make up my mind for myself, considering the risks I could envisage at the time, whether or not to take the route.
dkf747
Another thing that bothered me about the ODOT map, as I have already mentioned they use the color red for very general purposes, and also for warnings. But, notably in the area of Bear Camp, “Scenic”, is spelled out in red letters. So, they are using red letters to say, “hey, come on over and look at this!” and then…there is the warning box I have pointed out…in the same red color with the itty bitty curvy arrow. Now don’t get me started on the pink text in the box…thats just wrong on another level! 🙂
I havn’t looked at the atlases but I will now that you mention it.
If you can see yourself focusing on such minutia you should consider this career!
676 – dkf747, you are probably very right. I know that the alternate route I traced (still making that first veer to the right onto the BLM road instead of continuing on Bear Camp Rd) hits some elevation quite a bit higher than the route we’ve all seen throughout the media, so I, too, think it’s unlikely that it’s the path the Kim’s took. Still, as part of Paul’s “bowl of spaghetti” comparison, it was interesting to see how the roads twist and wind and sometimes connect up with each other and sometimes dead end completely.
RRR I forget if you can answer this type of question, but have you seen or heard any “local” stories that explain why the Carson choppers didn’t fly the BLM road on which they were found early on in the search effort?
I’ve been guessing they were not familiar with the local territory but it seems like they would have asked about and flown the main “mistake roads” up there very early on.
I still don’t understand how long it took for the “local” info from people who know the roads up there, let alone people like Mr. Rachor and Mr. James at Black Bar who have properties up there, to get processed by the early search effort.
During wintery months in SW Oregon it is, apparently, not uncommon at all for people to get stranded on back roads stuck in snow. Why not recognize this phenomena formally and tailor a systematic response to that kind of presumed emergency when in the future it occurs? Using helicopters but if not available then primarily snow cats and snow mobiles. Had this approach been taken at the outset when the Kims were 1st reported lost, James’ death very likely would never have happened.
681 – Hopefully something along those lines will come out of this. I can’t speak to this, perhaps RRR or others with experience can comment, but so many lost stories that I read about in OR are more along the lines of the Mt. Hood and Crater Lake sagas…people on foot in the wilderness. Percentage-wise, it seems like there are far more of those, and perhaps that’s why there is less structure for this type of search ?
680 – yeah, that’s still nagging at me too.
Kip and Paul RE: 681 & 682. Kip I think there is a methodology and it was followed here tho the Govs report should address this very specifically.
I think a key part of SAR is to focus search on the last known point or LKP. I’d suggest that in a case like this, where the people are traveling fast and to a clear destination, that won’t work as well as profiling the person and their possible motivations and likely actions.
Keep in mind that it’s actually unusual to have deaths – usually people are recovered safely. I think I read that in 16 out of 17 Oregon SAR efforts the people are alive.
The Kim search should probably not be taken as a “typical” SAR operation. It was anything but that.
681- I’m not sure – Kip. They might feel like they already
have a systematic approach, but it’s hard to implement
because each situation and resources are unique as RRR
said in (6530. I guess only SAR personnel could try to answer that question.
682- It may be Paul, that the stories more likely to make
the news are those about people who are on foot because those are harder searches that can be more dramatic and
take a long time. I think on foot in the wilderness, it’s
often that difficult ratio of so much space in relation to
1 person. (But in this case it seemed to be more that it
was such challenging terrain.)
680- me too
684- That’s supposed to be “as RRR said in 653”!
679 – I’m thinking I saw a map on another forum where somebody had posed another possible route. It had the Kims going past the right turn, then making a later right turn. I couldn’t make much of it since I don’t know the area.
674 – Kip, Maggie: I love maps, have a bunch of older ones. With all the freeways in So CA, I like to see how the roads used to go, and have found and taken some of the old roads that are still left. It’s sad to find the remnants of old towns or businesses that once were thriving until somebody built the freeway and took away the visitors.
My favorite around here is the old Ridge Route over the mountains between Los Angeles and Bakersfield. Until recently, you could still leave the main roads and find the old road from the early 1900’s and find remnants of once-thriving businesses on the only way over those mountains in those days.
678 I don’t know about a career, I already have one. I do spend a lot of time studying maps. Which reminds me. I lost the link to the ODOT Map, which I did see earlier on. I didn’t like that map much either, at least for the SW Oregon area. Going to have to look for the link now.
My name Conan. I’m cousin of Ahnold (Ah-nold). Cousin Ahnold told me in hospital he found your blog. He laughed and pointed at deez blog conversation and said:
Deez guys all girlie-men. Dumkopf Glenn is girlie-man. Dumkopf mapper is girlie-man. Don’t know Nord from South. In Caleefornia we have CALTRANS, no maps needed. Ten CALTRANS guys work roads. One guy works, nine drink coffee. Same like you guys, you all girlie-men. I like better hot Latino blood. I like hot, no ice, no snow, no dumkopfs.
I agree Joe…the profiling needs to happen…either by strangers over the internet, or by the detectives working with SAR or the sheriff,or someone named John Ranchor…someone needs to try to understand the motiviations of the person lost and try to understand what they were trying to do, and where they might have gone wrong.
Unfortunatley its protocols that might keep this sort of common sense from working. Which I believe is why a whole lot of us are here talking, we recognize this. And as RRR has mentioned, and I have mentioned…government workers have to worry about stepping on toes, etc, politics.
We are free from that here. I hope this sort of profiling becomes more prevalent in the protocols…but I wonder how much of that is actually happening, and at what level…
684/685 – warning: typing fatigue and carpal finger may set in as Joe Duck approaches 4000 posts. 🙂
lol…Joe, you have attracted some intresting attention, must be getting popular.
Madeleine that is SO interesting! I like that kind of stuff too. I must say, I drove in L.A for the first time last year, in a rental car no less, and had to find my way from the airport to Victorville where I am working on a side project. I, seriously…cannot believe the maze of freeways, it just boggles my mind!
683- It almost sounds like they had never really had to do this kind of search before, and therefore they weren’t prepared for it with enough personnel who were qualified to go into the canyon, and also a really well thought-out strategy, for truly covering enough ground in the canyon in a very short amount of time.
692- I mean for the ground search part.
ps Conan, cousin of Arnold. I’m just a girlie. No offense taken.
694- love it mapper!
you’re my mapping hero! (never thought I’d have one!)
(688)
Ihr schrecklicher Gebrauch von der deutschen sprache ist eine beleidigung zu denen des deutschen erbes. Conan und Arnold würden nicht thre meinungen teilen. Gehen sie bitte weg!
692 – Would be interesting to hear from RRR on this question. Some potential mitigating factors: 1. the drainage became increasingly steep and treacherous, injuries to searchers become a potential complication. 2. they had to be sure, as they descended, that he had not left the canyon. Enough ground in a very short amount of time may not have mattered, he may have already expired as they entered the drainage. Finding the car a few days earlier surely would have made the difference though.
I will be stunned if 688 actually speaks German.
Glenn, international man of mystery.
691 – Mapper – A local fellow took it upon himself to “save” the old Ridge Route, and over the course of several years, had it designated a historic road, no easy feat. They GPS’d it, cleared the rocks, and now all repairs must be done to the code that was in effect in the early 1900’s, nice thick cement rather than blow and go stuff like they do today. Several gov’t agencies were or still are arguing over who should be maintaining it, and some slides closed it a year or so back. There have been TV shows, web sites and a great book about it, and it’s really fun to see the ruins up there. Uh-oh, I’d better get back to the topic…
I found the ODOT site and was browsing the maps and came acroos the Josephine County maps. It’s pretty interesting to me how they show the fork and the way they name the road that the Kims are assumed to have used. I’m kind of changing my understanding of how they ended up going that way and choosing at the various forks in the road which one to take. It’s still not that clear but that map shows the logging road in a different way than the way Google maps shows it.
A link: http://egov.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/CountyMaps.shtml
(699) Yeah baby! Oh behave!…LOL…not such a mystery at all.
(701) Can you explain in more detail? I am very interested in this angle..thanks! Nice work.
701. Darn, I am on my work computer, having trouble viewing pdf’s so I can’t look at it. But that is an important point though, how differently things are portrayed on different maps.
700. Thats really interesting. I once tried to take old rt. 66 all the way from Chicago, at least the parts that are still drivable and not interstate. Oh, come on, this is on topic in my opinion! I knew if I said something yesterday I would get it! I can’t really explain what I was getting at. If we posted about this 100 times I might think it was a bit much…come on you know what I mean!
Well, I’m back home and have the Google Earth file where I traced the likely route (and the unlikely one). Turns out my webhost has some issue with the .kmz file type until I have them “allow” it (and I doubt I’ll hear back over the holiday weekend), so I don’t really have a place to post it (unless I put it on Google Earth, but I didn’t really want to do that). For now, if anyone wants it, you can email me at:
phoebe1dawn-duckblogfolks at yahoo.com
Yes, this is a “disposable” email address just for here – never know who is reading, right? 😉
696. Glenn I cant believe you know how to type the umlaut. Can you translate your German text for us?
(706) you need t-soft…if will solve of all your international needs…
What part didn’t you understand?
Basically told him his use of the german langauge is an insult and that Arnold and Conan would not agree with his opinion of the people here and he basically could go away now.
704 – Mapper – No, I meant that I will gladly go off on a dissertation about old roads at the slightest provocation and get busted for inciting thread drift (better than thread hijacking, I guess).
did you click on C ahnold’s name link? ha.
701 – dkf747, the Oregon DOT map that I have looks nothing like what is on their website.
707. 708. hahaha. I can’t concentrate now. I’ll be back later. I’m going to get in trouble now too cause all I can think about is…does arnold really have a brother named conan?
I told my wife Sandy about my comments to this group regarding our decision not to go Oregon immediately on hearing the news that our family was lost. She personally was doing the vast majority of the phone calls so she knows best. She reminded me that one of the Oregon officials in charge encourged us not to join in. I’m sure we would have gone had we been encouraged otherwise. I did have a brief conversation with James’ Dad regarding his decision to go up and to be involved early on.
I don’t mind stating some of the facts of the case as they relate to my personal involvement. I thought it was most pathetic that first afternoon and evening seeing and listening in to Sandy on the telephone all evening calling in desperation to area officials, police stations, motels then even to auto repair shops searching for evidence of the children. Seeing a tender loving Mother/Grandmother in that kind of desperation was agonizing for me. Personally, I just felt numb and didn’t know how to react other than to provide close support to Sandy. I tried to prepare myself for the worst news possible. The kids had been missing a full 5 days when I finally received the news of their disappearance. I was on my way to lunch with one of my partners when I received the call from San Francisco notifying me just as I pulle up the restaurant parking lot. I turned to Lara and said, “I’m sorry I don’t think I can eat now, my kids are missing.” I dropped her at the hospital and drove immediately to Sandy’s school and asked the prinicipal to call her out of the classroom. When she asked to talk with me immediately per phone, I had to tell her. She could barely walk unsupported and neither of us could restrain our tears of worry. We did not eat for two days. It just felt wrong knowing that our San Francisco was lost, and possibly starving. One friend and my son finally persuaded us to eat by telling us how they had prepared soemthing special on our behalf. If Kati does go the book route, perhaps she will want to review these events with us.
On a lighter note I want to tell everyone that one of James and Kati’s shops was named in honor of Penelope’s first word, “Doe.” It meant, ball, cloud, dog, balloon, most anything. Yes, they were a very loving group.
oh…710. I definitley think, that I have read the Kim’s were using the state issued ODOT map, and that has been linked here several times. I linked it on the last page somewhere around the 470’s (I think it was the last page).
I think its very important to keep that in mind when considering what they might have done. has anyone heard if they had any other map?
Cousin Ahnold told me he broke his leg when he ran into some Dumkopf from Oregon.
“In Caleeefornia no girlie-man works for CALTRANS unless plenty of coffee. No girlie-man use google maps. No girlie-man fix stupid problem on blog.”
Later he calmed down and said to me quietly:
“I like only hot, hot Latino blood. No girlie-man with fake Deutsch. Dumkopfs! .”
Maggie why not post that file at Google Earth? I think that’s a great idea and it’s neat you did that map work!
697- But the main point is “Enough ground in a very short
amount of time” does matter because we are not sure when he passed. You know it would matter to you, if it was a loved one of yours.
And in general, it always matters if you are doing an SAR where you are trying save someone’s life.
“Enough ground in a very short amount of time”, always matters.
Unless it is beyond any possibility that someone could be
alive, SAR operations should always be conducted as rescue efforts and not recovery efforts.
Of course, the beginning was very important too – but so
was the ground search!
C. Ahnold don’t work too hard on your comments as I may be deleting them soon.
Clapping for joe.
Kati’s Dad.
Thanks for that. Your experience kind of reminds me of the call I got when my dad was rushed to the hosptial unexpectedly a few years ago.
I was looking at that website with the Doe logo the other night, I was wondering about it, and I thought the logo was adorable.
703 tHAT’S ONE OF the things that bothered me, and I posted ab out it over at MT. Looking at Google maps it seems that there are many forks between THE FORK and where they were found. I could not comprehend how they got where they were from there by looking at the Google map. It didn’t make sense. I could see on Google that 34-8-36 went all the way to where they were found. Actually, they were found at the end of it, where it intersects with another road. However, Google maps shows a lot places where they could have chosen another route (forks) but somehow always chose the 34-8-36 route. I’ve been wondering about it for weeks. Then I decide to pull up the county map and it is drawn differently. I see 34-8-36 labeled as Galice Creek rd. from Galice all the way to THE FORK and even after it. The way the map is drawn seems to help me see a little clearer how they could have ended up there, where they were found. I’m also now reminded that James said he was going to walk Galice Creek and it’s interesting that the road is named Galice Creek rd on the map. This gives me a different perspective than I had using Google Earth or maps. I don’t think it is a new angle or anything.
It is interesting that the county map does not show as many logging roads as Googllle does, but I have no idea. Just my thoughts.,
(714) bedeuteten sie gefalschtes Deutsches?
712 – Kati’s Dad, I’m so glad that you are here. Thank you for sharing that with us. What an agonizing time it must have been – I can’t imagine. I still think that you were right where you needed to be by not traveling to Oregon and staying put in a familiar environment instead of dealing with everything and then pacing unfamiliar floors.
“Doe.” That is so incredibly sweet.
is that a dialect glenn?
(706)…oops my mistake in (721)…s/b gefälschtes – can you forgive me mapper?
710 The maps I linked to were county maps. Somewhere on that page http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TDATA/gis/odotmaps.shtml#Statewide_Maps is the map Iii understand Mapper to be referring to. It is the first link.
Kati’s Dad – thanks so much for the many thoughtful comments you’ve made over the past few days. What a roller coaster of emotions it must have been for you over the past several weeks.
(720) u and me both. Does anyone know what if any street signs with names exist around there?
721 Du er ikke den eneste som kan tale en andet sprog.
725 – OK, now *that* is the ODOT map that I have. I did notice that on the safety information there they have plenty of information, but absolutely nothing about being careful of things like logging roads. Might not be a bad idea.
715 – Joe, maybe I will go ahead and put it on Google Earth tonight. I’ll need to create an account and all of that. I just wasn’t sure about putting it out there so publicly with that alternate route traced and give the wrong idea and confuse someone…
(728) Now that is a far northern dialect…LOL
727 – RRR could answer that. I can’t remember.
(727) I am wondering just how easily it would be to end up where the Kim’s ended up. Starting from the highway…
733 – Pretty straight-forward to get from the 5 to the Bear Camp turn off, the critical element is the BLM fork, but it’s so poorly signed. I still wonder if they did not end up on that fork straightaway as others have theorized.
712- Kati’s Dad
Thank you so much for telling us about your experience and perspective in the story. It gives it so much additional
richness and depth…
I was wondering why they named the store ‘Doe’. I love
does, and have been really close to some (eating apples out of my hand!)outside of Eugene. I didn’t know if Kati’s time there had anything to do with it. But it is even more
special that it was Penelope’s first and favorite, word!
It was very quiet here today without you. I think everyone
had gotten spoiled by your special presence, and had missed
you!
****************
Now- I am going to discuss my frustrations with the ground
search, so you may want to skip this part.
692- Paul, and you know I mean no personal issues here, but
these are all very important issues to me. Yes, they kept
saying they weren’t sending more personnel in the canyon
because it was potentially dangerous. But that in itself
is an important SAR issue: when is it too dangerous for
SAR personnel to search and rescue?
I could understand why on Mt. Hood during all the storms,
etc.
But if James could do it in his condition, I think more SAR could have been able to do it.
It wasn’t easy to be sure, it wasn’t ‘a road’.
But there’s just no denying that if James was able to
make that much progress without serious injury other than
the exposure and hypothermia – that there are serious
questions about progress in the canyon.
733 – Glenn, from how it looks – pretty easily, at least onto that BLM road, and then if lost from there and trying to get out, I could understand it.
(734) (736) I thought I saw a photo of the fork…or it was part of a video (maybe CNN) and I seem to remember that the route left had a sign warning of snow, and in the middle a sign that said Oregon Coast…does anyone remember that and is that accurate for that fork?
Joe can you embed photos in our posts? Is that allowed?
(738) Aye Yi Yi
737 – Glen, I think I do have that picture, and it shows a small arrow to the coast below a larger sign.
738 – Pac, you are unbelievable.
(735) Lisa…yes and no regarding the progress. I can’t speak to why they didn’t drop small teams along the creek…however a grid search is just that…a methodological and somewhat slow process.
Remember James was focused on getting to help and he could have thought just around the bend of this creek has got to be that town/help.
The search team had to track and follow and at times when they lost his trail had to stop, etc…and also at any time he could have tried to get out of the creek and they had to look at that as well.
He also could have been injured and sought shelter under a fallen tree, a cave etc…Searching for someone who is injured and under a tree is just like hide and seek. The worst thing a searcher wants to do is realize they walked right past where the missing person is.
They also couldn’t have been trekking through the creek recklessly like James did…
Joe I think it’s time to block someone
(741) Can you send that to me?
(743) I don’t think Joe should block Pac…let him speak. If Katie’s dad wants to talk to him that is his choice…no one would blame him if he didn’t.
Besides Pac keeps making us look good…more and more every day.
741 I think the warnin g sign was right after the sign to the coast. I’m going by memory here.
Glenn RE: Embedding pix. Nope, WordPress does not allow that in comments, only in the posts. *However* you could post it elsewhere and link to the URL in your comment.
744 – Glenn, here is the sign to the coast
742- glenn – 2 teams – ‘slow deliberate search team’
and ‘fast cover ground team’.
It’s just common sense if you’re trying to save someone’s
life to have both! Especially in the cold! I sounds like
they didn’t have enough of both! Not when they were clearing
roads and not when they were in the canyon.
Barnadad said they’re called ‘deliberate’ searches and
‘hasty’ searches. And he’s also had military experience.
748 – I should say that I do not know where on the road it is.
I knew that I’d eventually be censored here. The weepfest can’t tolerate anything other than fellow weepers.
Well, pac never answered my specific questions, so I certainly hope Kati nor her father feel obligated to answer his.
I did find out a few itneresting tidbits about pac last night while reading up a little on the MT forums.
Hes not from the Pacific Northwest orginially
He lives in Seattle, far from the area in question
He thinks the term hero is unique and specific to men who have served in the armed forces, and men who have not made mistakes, mistakes preclude someone from being a hero.
But the rest is a mystery. Maybe he will finally answer my questions, but I wont hold my breath.
688/714 – Conan, Sie versuchen stark, aber Sie sind nicht lustig und nicht, störend genug, um irritierend zu sein. Jetzt seien Sie ein guter Junge und gehen Sie Spiel in der Straße.
I doubt he speaks German of any kind, just has a very bad phony German accent.
745- I think ‘Pac”s behavior is sick. I think it’s
borderline pathological, and unacceptable.
gates, blocking… not my druthers
(748) Thanks Maggie…I have seen a photo of a different spot or that spot further back on the road. It actually showed the fork. Does anyone have that one?
729, 725. I still can’t view PDF’s but yes I believe that is the map I have been referring to.
(749) Yes I think that can work and in a military withdrawal under fire is a whole different ballgame if thats what bamadad was mentioning.
756 – Glenn, not sure if this is it??
PacNWer you were correct about that – you eventually were censored. If you can’t post without insulting people don’t bother commenting at all.
(753) That is funny…reminds me of a joke telling someone to go play in traffic…
Sorry, Kip, but I have to disagree with you on this.
This is not about valid points, this is about sick
‘harassment’.
Sometimes boundaries are very important. You wouldn’t
want someone harassing your loved ones would you?
Would you just let them do it?
(759) Getting closer…that yellow sign looks familiar. I am looking too…
Good Evening!
I feel like I am having a weird dream, where everyone I know speaks (and types) German and they never told me before. Gayle’s even got the weird B. I took German too, I dont even remember what its called.
758- Barnadad was mentioning that he knows both types of
search techniques exist and he was wondering if both
were used.
762 – I think Kip meant blocking the road and putting up gates on the road?
(765) that would be called an ess-zett…if I remember correctly…
Good picture Maggie. It shows how “near” the lodge would have appeared at that turnoff. (TuTuTun, the lodge they were heading for, via the Lobster Creek bridge to North Bank Road, is about 5-10 miles closer than Gold Beach)
A few days ago somebody suggested that commercials showing 4WD cars being able to go “everywhere” were partly to blame. I thought that was kind of a stretch at the time but perhaps it really did factor in here – this was a vehicle that was supposed to handle winter driving without trouble. I wonder if the decision to drive on was based partly on confidence in their car.
767- I think he meant gates on the road and P on here
(769) I think these photos are important in understanding. The second photo Maggie put up is closer to what I was looking for…but not so close to ground (looking up). Also like to see how the road actually splits.
763 – Glenn, this one is really small, but maybe that’s the one?
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_120506_news_missing_family_tues.569404ac.html
769 – Joe, yes, so true about the 4WD false sense of security. I hate to say it, but I drove my Subaru (actually a twin of the Kim’s Saab) on some roads that it probably didn’t belong on a few summers back thinking AWD meant all would be dandy. Now I don’t think I’d chance it. Thank goodness it was summer.
769- I agree that had crossed my mind before.
770 – OK, nevermind. I’ll let Kip decipher if he chooses 🙂
735/Lisa – I think you were referencing my 697…and no, I don’t take it personally…it’s one of those mutual – but respectful – differences of opinion. I wasn’t there so I can’t know with any more certainty than you, I just have this nagging suspicion that there was a lot more to slogging down that canyon than we realize, which is why I would welcome comments from RRR on this. We’ve seen how the term “clearing a road” could have more implications/complications than we all at first thought. I’ve more issues around the questions surrounding the length of time it took to find the car than around the time it took to work down the canyon. Who knows, when the findings of the investigations come out maybe we’re both right.
772- However AWD have sure come along way since it first came out……
See ya, kids. Quite the sandbox you’ve got. Hope someone kicks back some TV movie royalties at ya.
(769) Saab’s used to have a strong reputation for bad winter weather driving…equipped with their gislaved (sp?) tires, etc…however their vehicle was a re-badged Subaru.
It seems to me so much common sense was lacking in the Kim search operation — eg…
– the painfully slow ultimately ineffective *protocol* road searches. It may have been more useful if the SAR people buzzed loudly a bunch of power saws together. Sound can travel long distance on a still wintery night. If heard, would have given the Kims hope.
– John Rachor found the female Kims and HE directed the SAR to them. Then the SAR futilely attempted to follow James’ path down the drainage. James at this point had a 3 day head start. It seems fairly obvious that if he were still alive (which I doubt very much, given the preceding frigid nights, his already weakened condition, and the likelihood he was soaking wet) …he could have, likely would have covered a lot of ground and it would make sense to try to intersect his probable path at multiple points down the drainage, as damn fast as possible, by whatever means available & most suited. But no, as the official spokesman and presumably the man in charge complained at a press conference, they just “couldn’t catch up” ..duh
Good night Pac! 🙄
Joe are you still around?
For whatever reason, I have not been able to create a new account on Google Earth Community tonight – every user name is taken, even one involving my cat’s name and something mushy, so I think it’s broke… I’ll keep working on it or come up with another plan. It really is interesting to “ride along” to get an idea.
(779) I think this all needs to be explored in deeper detail…I have had many similar thoughts…
(782) Try a German name… 🙂
Hey Mapper- Would it help in your mapping process if we sent SAR members out in the field and GPS the spagetti roads, who would we give that info to so we could confirm the right mapping?? Do you think it would be something worth a training mission- JoCoSAR is asking.
Hi RRR – yes, I’m here…
784 – Hey, I’ve tried Japanese (cat’s name being one of those tried…), so maybe German will work 🙂
Boy, go away for a minute and you miss a lot of fireworks. I never even saw what P was deleted for, but based on his previous posts I could guess. THANK YOU JOE !!
JoCo is going to email you answers to your questions on 680 so keep your eye out 🙂
(785) I think the areas that you think are trouble spots would be a good set to benchmark against existing maps…
(680) Absolutely critical to have answers to this…
RRR
I don’t know about a training mission. But if you keep maps in house, your gis person could then add the gps’d logging roads to the maps you have. I think that would be quite helpful yes, if you dont already have a good map of them. If you cant get something reliable from the usfs, blm, or odot, I think this would be a good investment.
Your gis person could just create the roads (from the gpsd files) and overlay them on whatever maps you currently use.
All this map talk just to let ya’ll know on our search we were using the Galice Ranger District Siskiyou National Forest map a USDA map
LOL – I just realized u censored Pac…saw the speak about it but didn’t know u did it! Well it will probably be for the better.
Good to know, I was wondering if they put something out for you to use, is it, or was it, reliable?
742- Glenn you hit it right on the head!
749- The fast cover ground team or “hasty team” would of HAD to be the swift water team
Does anyone have any idea how well Hastings did regarding this effort? He seemed very professional in the pressers…
OFFTOPIC – BREAKING NEWS…
Sodamn Insane has been executed. Good riddance – hopefully the people of Iraq can move on.
His legacy over 1,000,000 killed…unbelievable! How does this happen on our planet?
PacNWer – are you saddened by this news?
795- We believe so
Kip the “couldn’t catch up” comment by Anderson really struck me at the time as well, and I’m guessing (uneducated and wildly) they will conclude that there should have been teams dropped lower in the canyon immediately rather than the laborious “man tracking” that seemed to move so slowly.
I do NOT think this would have saved James Kim because it seems very unlikely he was alive when the search began, but they did not know that at the time. I get the idea they thought they’d catch up to him within hours, dead or alive, and this led to the decision to take less risks dropping SAR people into a dangerous canyon.
796 – that and the topography further down the drainage looks brutal.
(801) Joe that hit me too…and he kept saying we are so close…I couldn’t get my head around why he would say that…
771- Are you all looking for a picture of the Fork in the road where BC breaks off from the road that the kims were found on??
(801) Joe you also were pushing for SAR to look further up the creek…the whole time! Not only the locals out there on the ground…but you here on the blog had key information for them.
(804) yes please…
800 – if they gave you something understandable and reliable it might not be worth the time if joco doesn’t have money to be out gps’ing. But, if its a volunteer thing, it might really be good to have your own, independntly maintained data source for those logging roads, that way your gis person can get more famliar with working with them, and incorporating them into all of your in-house maps. This could really help in many ways that will become apparent over time.
806 Hang on I shall direct you all 🙂
804 yes
805 – further UP the creek ? – you’ve lost me. He was down the creek, and they did try to send a Swiftwater team up but were stymied by cliffs.
thanks for the update on saddam glenn. I thought it was still a couple of hours away….that whole thing is just scary. I do wish they didn’t do hangings still….
807- At this point I believe that we are already using our GIS person and putting all that info together for further use…..Just and FYI a fellow SAR member of a neighboring county stopped at the Willsonville Chamber of Commerece this week and asked for a scenic route to the coast from their and they gave him the same map that was giving to the kims, with BC highlighted
(811) yes hanging was far too nice for him. But I do understand your position in regard to others.
797-
But they were too far ahead – there was too much uncovered
space inbetween.
Was there a strategy? And why all that uncovered area
if as has been suggested, smaller teams could have been
dropped in by helicopter and covered all the ground on Tuesday.
812 – is it still my understanding that this element is unclear ?…that the chamber employee swears they stopped and Kati says they did not ?? I thought I saw something in a subsequent press item where the chamber stop was retracted, that it was bad information. It’s an important element, just looking for clarification.
(810) my mistake…from where I am…everything is further up…LOL. Joe pretty much nailed right where James was found! It was pretty amazing actually.
812, yes I was just thinking also, USFS could maybe even provide the data to your gis person if you do not already have it…but I would not discourage gps’ing the logging roads at all, but you would have to do it often enough (if they change periodically) so that the data is always up to date, if your gis person will be using them in the maps (as I am sure you know this!)
Anyway….I can’t believe it…the scenic route thing!
(815) Yes I read that…but put that whole part in the “fog” of news category…will be good to get to the bottom of that.
We still understand the same however we have not seen the retracted statment. The point of me stating it is that they are still directing people that way they haven’t learned their lesson
811 – agree with Glenn, good riddance to Sadam.
Up till not too long ago hanging was still the method of execution in WA state.
Susan are you still around??
814- clarification
The swift water team was on the Rogue.
One team was trailing him, excruciatingly methodically
and slowly, days behind…
And the other team was rafting down the Rogue.
Then there was the team that was blocked by the cliffs,
but they should have been dropped in by helicopter.
They (blocked by cliffs) got within a half mile of where
he was found Wednesday.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2083162403303862037
Not sure how to format a link here, but this goes to the video of the turnoff, which I look at from time to time as a point of reference. Imagine this at night, in worsening weather.
Here are two links for pics of what you are looking for…I think!! 2nd one will give you pic of fork.
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon/#postcomment
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002
great video. shows how the signs show up.
832- That is a video cut from CNN
Here are two links for pics of what you are looking for…I think!! 2nd one will give you pic of fork.
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon/#postcomment
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002
(823) Thanks for the link…that is what I was looking for.
Does the yellow sign further up warn of snow making the road impassable?
823 Wow! Look how small that sign appears! Thanks for the video perspective.
Hey Joe are you still around?? Is JoCoSAR blocked from the site…just trying to post some info for ya
RRR (819) that’s really something about the Wilsonville map. Even if the Kim’s didn’t get that bad recommendation it shows how easy it is for people out of the area to think that’s a viable route to the coast.
Glenn I think you may be giving me too much credit for pinpointing James location early on. The Big Windy reports were coming in from SAR by the time I was talking about that as the place, though I remain confused why it was assumed he did not make it as far as he did or even farther down the canyon and out along the Rogue.
RRR – yes I’m here. JoCoSAR is not blocked – do you know what the problem is – any error message?
No there is no error, we are again in the same room on two computers, they posted some links of the fork in the road and I can see it on their computer as being posted on here with number 824 and 827 yet on my screen they are not posted any suggestions??
hello??
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/photos/gallery.ssf?cgi-bin/view_gallery.cgi/olive/view_gallery.ata?g_id=6002
Well there they are problem fixed I guess
(832) Hello
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/kim-family-search-in-rogue-river-wilderness-of-oregon/#postcomment
Sorry JoCoSAR – I didn’t realize it but you went into moderation due to the links and I just approved those two comments which will appear ABOVE in sequence.
what’s moderation?? I don’t do anything in moderation!!!!
(840)…LOL
I was so frusterated cuz I was trying to help…and nobody could see me but me!!!
Does anyone know what the yellow sign says a little ways up that road on the video?
Ha JoCoSAR. You and RRR sure liven up the joint!
823 – Glenn, I have never found out what the yellow sign says that is visible up the left fork in the road. Maybe JoCoSAR or R3 will know.
Being in the same room, on the same internet connection, we have often gotten the response that we are typing too fast…that is always funny! We have been competing to click the “submit comment” first!
I believe that it is the sign that states what CB channel you should be on to tell people you are traveling on the road.
Wednesday 11/15/2006, by AJ Flores and Clyde Davidson.
Bear Camp Warning Signs (MAYBE BLOCKED BY SNOW DRIFTS) are now all in
place at 4 locations to warn the public heading to Agnes/GoldBeach.
County Road #2400/Merlin Galice Rd. off I-5 ramp exit 61: @MP 0.39 (Maybe
Blocked 33 miles ahead) near Rays Market,
@MP 5.00 (Maybe Blocked 28 miles ahead).
Galice Access Road (BLM 34-8-36), @ MP 2.1 (Maybe Blocked 10 miles ahead)
also installed on post above sign a Diamond shape Orange Reflective plaque
to help attract the publics attention.
BLM Road 34-8-36 turns into Road #23 Bear Camp. @MP 12.35 (Maybe Blocked 6
miles ahead) also installed on post above sign a Diamond shape Orange
Reflective plaque.
We also have photo’s that will be down loaded and filed for our
documentation and hard copy as well.
844 – Joe, what does it mean when I get a message saying “You are Posting Too Fast – Slow Down”. Too many messages, or literally typing too quickly? Hitting send too fast?
You are sure right about JoCo and R3 getting the joint jumping…
Everybody:
I think a comment with TWO LINKS or more will go into moderation so post one at a time if you post links.
Moderation means I have to go in and approve the comment before it will show.
It means sending too fast he he he he we are GUILTY of that
If you all think we liven up the joint you should be here in the SAME room!!! Its a hoot and a holler!!
655, 660, 705, 730 and more – I’ve *finally* got this posted somewhere. This is the Kim’s likely path that I traced out as well as a very unlikely alternate route. I’ve included the other points widely seen on internet pictures. You will need to download Google Earth in order to use it (which I’ll post next since there is a link limit that Joe just explained).
And finally, the one I worked on is here:
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=735747&page=0&vc=#Post735747
Google Earth is here:
http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html
I got a slow down message, too 🙂
Madeleine 849 – it means too many comments in a short period of time, usually this is only if you try to hit submit immediately after another comment.
That rule, like the moderation rules, are to keep out commercial spam pitching viagra, etc.
And since I’ve been busy toying that, I’ll need to wade through the tons of posts since then… 😉
Um, toying with that, I meant. Oy!
Maggie, did you take into consideration that they may have taken the Peavine detour? I still think that needs to be considered. That is the first sign to the coast after you turn right off of Merlin Galice Rd….many more miles before that road hits the “Bear Camp Road.” I just a few days ago realized that the 34-8-36 road is actually the same as the Bear Camp Road off of Galice Creek..
858 – JoCo, hi!!! I have not done that, but if things slow down around here for a bit so that I don’t miss anything, I might take the time to do it 🙂
(858) A wise man once told me…you should do everything in moderation…including moderation.
Ok so I am just enough of a computer geek to get myself in trouble how does this google earth thing work…I downloaded so if I click on a link you put up it will automaticly work??
Glenn – you know I haven’t listened to your advice before…why should I start now??!! 🙂
860 – Glenn, I say that, too 🙂
861 – River, once you install Google Earth and go to my link, click on the one to see it in Google Earth (not map), and it should open. Then you can zoom in and almost be on the road, roughly…
Still reading back about 50 posts to catch up. You all have been busy.
Maggie, I am sticking to the UNLIKELY route…I get to tell you why next weekend!!!!
OK I got it to work!
Ok, RRR was confused by my comment…I don’t think they took the white route.
when were the arials taken?
Maggie that’s GREAT work on the layout. Thanks for posting that and pinpointing things!
RRR – you should just get to click on through to load the mapping file which has a kkz extension. You may get connection errors if there is a firewall but often can ignore those and load the maps.
My scroll button is smoking again…I can’t type fast enough to get a word in edgewise. 🙂
(863) but can you say it in German…
(858) can someone map that route out on a map…sorry I would do it…but I just do not know the area well enough to do so?
RRR – sent you mail.
JoCoSar – can you again speak with us freely ?…has Big Brother turned the surveilance cam off ?
Google Earth newbies should see the layer box on bottom left and check the box for roads to see roads overlayed on the satelite picture.
Big Brother is always watching!
858 – Geez, if they got off onto Peavine I can’t see how they ever would have made it back to the BLM fork, it’s dreadful.
(875) How easy would it be to take that detour?
875-it’s not bad anymore..just longer. They fixed it some time ago when they closed Bear Camp due to slide. That’s why I asked about dates of ariel photos…I have our GIS photos at my work office, those photos were just taken last year…would be very interesting..wish I had them here!!!
Where is the Peavine detour?
874 – have you checked under your lamp shades ?…noticed a clicking sound on your phone line ?…do items in your house seem like they’ve been moved around ?…yeah, I thought so. 🙂
876 – what I have been saying, is that is the most likely route they travelled in my opinion…it is the most obvious first route!!! Promise!!
Maggie- thats the same alt. route you or someone else posted awhile back right?
thanks Paul!!
Peavine detour is the first right turn after turning onto Galice Creek Rd. off of Merlin Galice Rd.
877 Most of Google earth is several years old. No idea when that area was taken.
(881) Maggie suggested the alt-route early on…
885 thought so.
(884) Microsoft Virtual Earth has some good images of the area as well.
well, I think she was right early on.
Sheesh, you all are chatty 😉 I’m curious enough now that when you all go to bed, I’ll do the Peavine and repost it with that (exhausted, but drinking coffee and likely up for many more hours). Joe, thank you for the compliment; it was fun, and I was kind of proud of myself having never done anything like that before. Anyone who hasn’t tried it, it’s actually very easy – give it a whirl!
Glenn, I can say only a few things in German, which we will not discuss here 🙂 For Japanese, I’m your girl (or girl/boy if I’m not identifying myself as either).
812+ – It does concern me that Wilsonville Chamber of Commerce would actually direct anyone over Bear Camp Road, especially at this time of year and just after this tragedy. Unbelievable.
In the time it took me to type this, I bet there will be 20 more messages (or more).
889 – and seeing as how they were actually “accused” of giving the Kim’s that fateful map!!! No lessons learned! Crazy!
(889) 素晴らしいそれはない
888 – Aw, shucks. The alternate route that I traced, is not the Peavine route, is it (don’t have it up right now)? Are you saying you think it was Peavine or you think it was the one I randomly drew as my alternate route?
WAAAAAA…. Glenn, Japanese and German. Oh my!
Some of the the Google data is actually from county GIS records, but not sure how often it’s updated.
I will be working on your challange maggie brb
889 – Maggie – I share your frustration…these folks all took the Evelyn Wood typing correspondence course. Any time I type anything over a sentence I come back on 30 posts from where I left. Simply amazing about the Chamber given all the publicity.
(893) Well I have that to thank for from Douglas Adams…
Maggie – what I am saying is that I think that the most logical route to where they ended up is this:
Galice Cr. to Peavine Rd to Bear Camp Rd to 34-8-36 turnoff all the to the near end. The shortcut I don’t think that they took is the one that you highlighted on your google map..make sense?
Maggie, how to you trace a route? We can’t find that tool on the toolbar…any easy suggestions?
898 – Ok, got it – neither of the ones I traced, then. I will work on Peavine tonight while I’m coffee’d up and normal folks are sleeping.
899 – In the menu at the top, click on “add,” then “path.”
897 – Ok, I give up. Who???
900 – So if normal folks are sleeping what does that make all the nocturnal posters on Joe Duck ?
903 – You be the judge of that, Paul 😉
the fact that James was presumably backtracking the route he had driven in would indicate the green line road was the one they had used to enter…. would it not?
it won’t show our line on the map…I don’t think that you personally will be able to do it without our map or not having been up there…but you are smart….we are trying to do it too…
905 – Yes, that was my thought.
Glenn、 訳者を見つけたもか。
I’ll be awake Maggie! hahaha. I’m still working or I would have checked out your stuff already. I’ve taken my flexible office hours a little too seriously this week. My schedule is so messed up!
(902) Babel fish in your ears will translate any language for you.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
You can find it here…didn’t want you all to think I was some language guru or something… 😉
908 – You people are freaking me out.
905 – i am not sure I understand your question
(908)…LOL…I just posted the link…
Hey Tara check your email pretty please
I will be right back to 9000 messages.
Mapper, I know, if my hours were flexible, I’d have screwed the week up badly. Instead I almost fell asleep at my desk.
Ah, ok, I use this one…
http://www1.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
I’m sure most of you know, but just in case… You can zoom in very, very close in Google maps and even tilt the view by holding down the middle mouse roller key thingy (gosh, I’m tired – can’t remember what that’s called). Anyway, it almost brings you there – though clearly not as dramatically as the terrain really seems to be.
(917) scroller
[912] …. Maggie can better explain, Maggie Please?!
919 – Do you mean that you think the green route was the only one taken at all??? Cuz that’s what I think…
918 – yes, scroller 🙂
919 – Kip/JoCo – I think Kip was asking whether the green path I drew was how the Kim’s drove in, and was thinking that if so, it would have been the same one that James first walked down heading away from the car – right?
920 – That’s what I think Kip meant. Kip, is that what you meant?
From Oct. 2004
GOLD BEACH, OR–Peavine/Serpentine Springs route to Gold Beach and the coast will be closed Nov. 1st for reconstruction. The BLM has awarded the Peavine/Serpentine Springs Road Reconstruction & Surfacing contract to Roy Garren Construction. Construction staking began on Oct. 20th and is expected to be complete by Nov. 3rd. Brush removal/clearing and grubbing will begin on Nov. 1st . Route will be closed from Nov. 1st until
reconstruction is complete around the 1st of June.
Traffic will be routed over Forest Service Road # 25, the Briggs Valley road up Taylor Creek to FSR 2510. Briggs Valley road will accommodate two way traffic for all users except logging traffic. The detour will then proceed along the 2510 road to FSR # 2402, the Chrome Ridge road, then along the Chrome Ridge road to BLM route 35-9-1.4, at Hanson Saddle. The detour will then proceed along road 35-9-1.4 to BLM route 34-8-36, end of detour. These roads are single lane with turnouts and will have two-way
traffic. Logging traffic coming from road 35-9-1.4 will be routed down Chrome Ridge Road (FS 2402). Chrome Ridge Road will accommodate “one way traffic only” from the junction of roads FS 2402 & 35-9-1.4 to road 34-8-36
on Galice Creek. Public one way traffic will also be allowed along this section of the Chrome Ridge road.
The BLM is pursuing to repair the Galice Access slide and remains optimistic that the repair can be completed in 2005. The BLM’s highest priority remains opening a safe, cost-effective and reliable route to Agness and the coast.
923 – JoCo, I’m glad you can speak (or are speaking if you can’t, whichever). Do you think that the route outlined above is the one I should try tracing (sounds like Paul’s spaghetti already)?
Sorry…no…that really has absolutely nothing to do with this search at all!!! Just an fyi that I found…
[922] …..Maggie.. YES!
925 – Oh. Good, because that sounded hard 😉
923: “safe”?…”reliable”?…under the best of circumstances I think you would be hard pressed to ever describe that road that way.
926 – I’ll add translating English to English to my resume. That was funny 🙂
I think that the Peavine route will be more difficult…without never driving up there before!
Hey Maggie do you have to have Google Earth Plus to draw a line on the maP??
931 – Nope, I have the free version, and it works. If you click on “add” from the menu at the top, and then “path,” it should let you draw.
OK still working on it……GGrrrr
Re-reading 848 you have to wonder…just how strong do the new signs need to be ? 4 very large signs in neon yellow placed at regular intervals seemingly routinely get ignored. I initially thought a skull and cross bones was sarcasm or at the least tasteless overkill. Maybe not. I have trouble faulting BLM if they felt that was a pretty thorough job of signage.
934 – I still liked Gayle’s “rain here/snow there” idea. Something simple that makes a point because it’s not as generic.
Ok Maggie I got the dang line to draw how do I Get it do go without stopping each time I stop I have to start over a new line I can’t keep tracing!!! I know now what I HATE MAPPING ggggggrrrr that JoCoSAR person
Maggie, you might have to change your tagline to Mapper2.
936 – Basically, you just click points, and it will draw a line. Does that help?
937 – Mapper will always be the Mapper(ette). I’m just drawing stuff on maplike stuff already done. If I actually had to draw anything for real, it would be very scary. My maps are kind of like stick people maps.
Yes i think so let me try
Sorry folks – not sure what caused the blog to crash for a few minutes but seems OK now.
[936] …. “person” !!! HOHOHO
oops.. I should have said teehe-teeehheee~~
we just had a horrible thing happen with our joe duck site. both of us were locked out…everytime we tried to get here, it said page not found…there were some upset folks in this room…and some horrible things said!!! We though maybe something happened to Joe’s site…what a tragedy!! We would all get sleep!!
[940] ..crashed my machine, Joe. but ok now, on restart
Ok Kip…you seem to be the one bothered by my unisex…I AM A FEMALE!!!!!!!!!!!! Happy now?? Gee whiz!!
now watch for the “P did that” !! comments to follow….. LOL
All you map GEEKS I bow down to you!!!!!!
OK, I found how Peavine all connects and will start working on it. Question: Following Galice Road, there are two ways to get onto Peavine. There is a left onto BLM 34-8-36 that then meets 35-8-2 that then meets Peavine. OR going past that first left, if you keep going, there is another road to the left that doesn’t show a name but clearly becomes Peavine shortly. Which one is the likely way of getting onto Peavine?
Ummmm – Peavine is off to the right…
Joe – could we be overloading / taxing the site with the sheer volume & pace of traffic ?
Oh…
Maybe I just took a vote of all the spouses of people on the site and they voted to unplug us all?
Maggie, I think we may have it…standby
948 – OK, I get it now. I was coming from the wrong direction on Galice Road. This is why I’m not usually allow to map stuff 🙂 😳
Good thing i don’t have a spouse!
(944) Darn…there goes the neighborhood!
948 – I posted this but it didn’t go thru? I was coming from the wrong direction on Galice Road….
So the first right or the second?
[944] … I know JoCo! You’re great too! I mean it.
951 – I wouldn’t be surprised. My SO misses me.
951 – My hubby didn’t vote… he’s at work. 😉
Paul re:overload due to traffic – I don’t think so because this is hosted on a very robust platform at WordPress. Traffic was higher back during the search though it’s been going up again over the past few days.
maggie – 35-8-5 is Mill Cr..it connects peavine with Bear Camp..it has gates on both ends.
maggie – now that we have the road traced, what do we do to make it do what you did??
962 – Do you mean how/where to post it?
959 – ditto, but mine is otherwise starting to really wonder if she needs to stage an intervention of some sort…some variation of 12 steps to Joe Duck independence.
(962) now figure out why you didn’t find them… 🙂
(964) Don’t do it Paul…you will have to apologize to Pac…that is in step 4 or something…
I am hurt! Bang I have been shot!
oh wait a minute…that wasn’t a hard core slam was it???
I am so not responding to that one!! Glenn…c’mon now…really??
966 – NEVER !!!…plus I’d probably have to toss my laptop in step 6.
I think Pac might be rubbing off on Glenn….I might have to find another sandbox to play in
965 – Glenn, I shouldn’t laugh, but that was kind of funny in a dark humor kind of way…
(967,968,969)…I didn’t mean it like that…I meant it as we need to figure out how to do all of this better.
LOL…you gotta love the written word – so much different than verbal – dont’cha know!
968/969 – Cumulative sleep deprivation syndrome…me thinks Glenn was just attempting a little levity.
Glenn – I know I said I wasn’t gonna respond, but anytime you are ready, you come here to GP and we will personally drive your happy ass up that mountain and show you ourselves!!!!!!!!
(972) yes thanks for the confirmation that I am twisted…I already knew that. 🙂
971 – now don’t go insulting Glenn like that…. 🙂
(975) So did anyone do this type of exercise during the search for them?
Ummmm there was time for excersize during it??? hmmm missed that one@
all we did here tonight was outline a road with red ink…I am not sure how you think that may have helped finding someone on the road???
So this Peavine route, if I’m seeing it correctly, all happens well before the point where the FS23 / BLM 34-8-36 fork even happens, right?
this type of “exercise” would have been no help during the search…maybe you can clarify??
981 yes
JoCo & RRR – is this the route for Peavine (in white)?
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/735807/an/0/page/0#735807
975 – Glenn, did you ever see Thelma and Louise ?…I think JoCo & RRR could be the Thelma & Louise of Bear Camp Rd., you might want to think long and hard about that invitation.
(980) point is…looking at a hybrid sat image like this in conjunction with edge wireless data, your personal knowledge, etc…it could be helpful – I am asking because I don’t know…but this is kind of seeing the forest and not just the trees…down in the thick of it looking at USDA maps might not give this perspective.
712-Kati’s Dad: thanks for sharing more. I imagine as the days go by there must be an overwhelming need to share some of what has happened. Doing so in a somewhat anon (albeit public) place can be therapeutic. I think it speaks a lot that you’ve chosen Joe’s forum as a place where you can put some things down in writing. Most of us are here for the same reason–it seemed a rational and intelligent place to be.
(With some exceptions but those seem to be taking care of themselves.)
[971]…well haven’t you noticed that Glenn always gets a kick, a ‘LOL’, outta Pac’s comments?
Angela, we are trying…
(988) LOL
984 – Angela, that’s about where I’m tracing, too, if we understood correctly. Some of those roads dead-end, but there is a path that does go through.
glenn – I still think that you are putting way too much weight on that cell phone map…really, I promise to explain soon. I have not seen yet how this particular “exercise” would have helped at all during the search. It is fun to play with right now, but honestly, all kidding aside, our GIS did much better than this. Please believe me until I can explain the cell phone map better!
maggie – we have the line completed, we just can’t figure out how to share it with you…can you help us with that?
(982) early on when you first started breaking ur rules and posting here…didn’t you make the comment the JoCo couldn’t reposition sats, etc…
I also get the feeling that this is the first time you have used this Sat technology…correct me if I am wrong.
Point is half the internet is using this stuff and a lot of good ideas on where to search, etc…came from people visualizing this area by looking at these hybrid images.
This approach is SOP for military.
Just wondering if you think this could help with the big picture of things…it is interactive…you can mash it up…make custom views…have maps that just show what you want so you can focus on it.
I would think all of this could be very valuable in the process…and guess what a bunch of volunteers could do this grunt work for you with input from you.
991 Yes, LOTS of dead ends though where I ended was at the turn off to bear camp. I was tired of push pins by then and didn’t finish the part that you had already done in green. Someone smarter than I could possibly combine the two. . . . What a long and frustrating route that must have been in the dark, snow and cold. Scenic route my #$%&* (and Glenn I didn’t even have to use an interpretor software for that one)
I see what you are saying now….thinking of a response..
(995) That’s ok…those are internationl symbols…we all know those. 🙂
993 – Basically, you will want to go back to Google Earth, go into the Community section, create an account, and then post it somewhere. It will let you describe it and “attach” the Google Earth file that you saved. Does that help?
(996) While your thinking…think about having that capability on the fly while deployed…yes even in the wilderness and it might happen if those towers go up.
RRR is working on that now..thanks Maggie!
Ok, so as i hear you, you think that during an active search, we could have like one volunteer dedicated to interacting with people on the internet via virtual maps? Then using that interactive information as “leads?” Is that what you are saying?
(996) also how valuable would a “think out loud” secure forum be where all kinds of SAR professionals from around the world can listen and respond to stuff being bounced off the wall?
as for the “on the fly” part..you mean something like a mobile data terminal with an edge cell card for internet connection in the field (that would only work where there is a signal of course)?
1000! Again!? I’m going to wait until late tonight or tomorrow to put up the new page – it should take a lot more comments and I don’t want to break things up any more than is needed.
(1001) It’s all intell right. But very concise, can be drilled down, etc…
See the way I see it…is James Kim set the operational temp on the battlefield – you guys were always playing catch up.
SAR needs to set the operational tempo – if you control that you will win 9 times out of 10.
All of this information is distilled properly could provide really good insight on where to focus, set the tempo and seal the deal.
Joe, you might make the Guiness Book at this rate ! (1004)
FREAKING MAPS!!!!!!!!!
Angela can you change your color of your line??
(1003) well if they piggyback or just deploy WiMax on the towers…you would have full wifi out there and fast wifi.
Tablets, umpc’s…
I also think it would be invaluable as a platform to collect details to fill in the holes during the immediate review. More details collected incrementally during process and less forgot.
I’ll try . . .
[1005] … wow! succinctly put, good stuff! Glenn.
1002 – I need to give that some real thought before I give you a real answer…I have an opinion on it, but not sure how to put it in words quite yet…keep suggestions coming though…I am trying to sort out how to verify “professionals” and not quacks, I am also thinking of how much time would be used chasing crazy ideas, or how to share critical investigative clues that we can’t release to the public…things like that…working it out in my brain!
Fascinating, cool…actionable ideas, compelling suggestions…Pac would be having kittens.
(1003) I could even see as part of the roll up for each day (even in the field) each searcher could post to a secure mini-blog, even with images from search their thoughts on the day…max 15 minutes…blast out their info, intell…then they go to bed…and/or people then respond, challenge, discuss the information and someone else collects all the gems of data from all the discussions and all the searchers and you start to paint a picture of information.
The cool part is it all happening real/time and strategy can be adjusted in a near real/time manner. You would have the coordinates to feed FLIR, SATS whatever you needed and you would collect even more info.
That is setting operational tempo. SAR has one luxury that a victim doesn’t…SAR can make GOOD decisions with GOOD information – the victim in most cases can’t. SAR needs to make that its advantage.
one major problem that I see, ok two…SAR has one computer, most of our SAR folks are not entirely computer literate, and the biggest of all…most searches start with the possibility of criminal element. I just don’t see how we could possibly share all of that real time and not compromise something…still thinking!!
RRR – here you go in Red.
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/735830/an/0/page/0#735830
p.s. to change the color go to your path (box on the left) and select it, then choose properties, then select the style, color tab
Anyone know how to overlay with Maggies??
Sheesh, it’s like a maze to connect up with no dead ends. Anyway, very crude right now, but I’ve added Peavine if our SAR folks say it’s correct?? If you scroll way in, there are many other options off of this, too, but most don’t get you there.
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/735807/an/0/page/0#735807
still at same link
(1011) One of the issues of information control is you are forcing a least common denominator approach. Of course I am not suggesting all of this information just be free flowing like here…the press would have a field day and so would lawyers.
The model I have been playing with…is one where people prove themselves either through certification, and actual results. Also not one piece of analysis would ever be done by just one person – it would be given out to multiple people and the results combined. Over time participants would have a rating and expertise categorization, etc…
So I know there are a ton of obstacles but think of the power this type of stuff brings, confidence, and man it could be a real positive thing for SAR feet on the ground to see how their efforts are paying off.
In the end the victims win…more will be found sooner. Dead or alive…it matters that they are found.
1016 – we have the exact route, if we could just figure out how to post it….maggies isn’t right enough yet
1018 – Were you able to get into Google Earth Community?
(1014) criminal is a different ballgame…but I fully understand.
Key thing about this – this is something that can attract large corporate sponsors. Most visionaries will see this as a no-brainer. I firmly believe information could be a key element in maximizing SAR’s advantage of being able to make more GOOD decisions then they victims can.
I am following you Glenn, it sounds like cool stuff..sounds like more management time and less time in the field too…but, if it was to work, less time in the field may be needed if we are in the right place…right?
Is there a model of this somewhere? any other discipline?
Oregon State SAR has enough trouble just putting together a State resource list…this all seems so “forward” in such a prehistoric society such as SAR! It seems as though many SAR communities are still trying to evolve from good ole boy 4×4 clubs full of families of volunteers. Some counties only have 14 search volunteers…period. How do we balance?
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/735838/an/0/page/0#735838
Lets give this a whirl!
We did it!!!!!!!
I’ve gotta leave now but see you all tomorrow and will set up a new page at that time.
Thanks for all the excellent comments and ideas!
That is Peavine detour…mostly paved now since that long obscure post I did earlier about paving…that’s the route I personally think that they took…of course, without the information that they had been up there before…
(1022) Great job…
Now…can we add in a different color how we think they got there…and then in yet another color where they ended up?
GREAT! Thanks so much, and a wonderful job you did!! I’m looking at these glorified goat trails and thinking if you didn’t have a compass, how could you even have a clue which way you were headed. Naturally the days in the car would allow orientation through the sunrise / sunset – but before that when it was cloudy / snowing etc. OMG.
Congrats JoCo and RRR – you qualify for a new medal or something!!
It will be interesting when the time is appropriate to learn how this was discovered.
Thanks so much for all your contributions, it really is great having you here.
The Peavine Detour is how WE think they went
Glenn,
JoCo has a GIS already, in my opinion, its really not SAR’s job to be doing the maps in the field. I think its more about GIS communicating more directly with SAR magagment, and the protocol including them more in the process.
Many counties and municipalities already have something like this in place. (gis in the field)
Maybe I misread something, just got home, just catching up. dont know if I will quite tonight though.
1027- What do you mean discovered?? This is a paved well marked “to the coast” route…..Please elaborate
1030 Sorry, my mistake – I started posted before your 1025 & 1028. No discovery, just good detective work by two people who have my upmost respect!!
1022 / 1028 – WOW! Now that is quite the trek. I can’t follow the thinking of that very sharp hairpin getting onto it instead of continuing straight, but other than that, once on it, it would make sense.
(1021) Isn’t that always the $64k question. We need to build a model for this. I need a lot more information to put something together…which I plan on visiting JoCo to get that!
Once we have a model I am sure a few of involved can scrape some hardward together for you guys to try some of this out. We all have to realize it is going to experimental (maybe we just use on the criminals first – LOL – just kidding). and it will most likely be wrong in the beginning.
So a parallel effort will need to be employed in the early days of this. But I think this could get legs…
If we show success then there are some very important people that need to see this and we can then scale and make a difference.
So this is a start and I am sure after a few thousand more posts we will come up with something.
JoCoSAR…remember this…it is always easier to say – we can’t do that because of this, etc…do you guys take that attitude when you are searching for someone? So let’s figure it out and get past those obstacles…there are lives to be saved.
PS – When someone tells me I can’t do something…impossible never happen…that is when I get excited and I know I am on the right track.
(1029) I think the issue with GIS is they don’t get their hands dirty…they need to be responsive to specifics happening and being gathered in the field. They need to produce mapping reliefs in an interactive more real time manner than they do today.
When you are driving on it, the intersections are very obvious. Most other roadways have gates on that particular route…they made that route better when they closed bear camp road due to the slide. these photos must have been before that. I can’t see any burned areas from the biscuit fire in the area either…which would mean that these were pre-2002 photos.
1029 – Hi Mapper! Welcome home, and happy catch-up reading. I think us mapper-wanna-be’s have quieted things down with map talk… 🙂
guess i may be missing sumthin… does it make a significant difference what road they trevelled before getting to the #23 – 34-8-36 junction?
glenn.
I am not going to tell you its never going to happen, but this is already happening, but keep in mind they already have a gis and should build off of that. there is a thing called arcpad, which allows field techs to take inhouse data into the field. this sounds more practical to me than what your proposing with google stuff and etc. but I am just catching up. I dont want JocoSar to get all overwhelmed when there are already cases in other municipalities and counties they could use as a model and not just us and our ideas.
1035 – Great point, JoCo! I wondered that when I first started messing with them – how old are they and what all has happened since then seems to matter quite a bit more out there than it would in my unchanging neighborhood.
oh believe me, many of us spend all our time in the field. it all depends on the job you do
1037 – Kip, that’s what I started wondering when I realize how far from it this was – but it was still interesting to see and understand what had gone on before they even got to that fork. Looks like it was even trickier than the more direct route – I’d be that much more stressed out personally.
Kip – only I guess to someone still trying to figure out how much gas they had…and it entertained all of us for quite some time…I guess that’s it???
(1037) I think it would have a big impact on how much fuel they had? That may have played into why they stopped.
(1042)…LOL…great minds
JoCoSAR thinks its entertainment to watch RRR pull her hair out while making that map!!!!
(1038) I agree they should build upon what they have.
1044 – Glenn, you are not in that same room with them, are you? 🙂
1041 – Oh, yah, and the gas thing – what they all said.
Glenn, if you can claim to still have a great mind at what is it 1:30 am there?? Oh My.
RRR – hope you don’t have to change your tag to BaldRiverRat . . . .
glenn – a couple of things…I did mention that I was still thinking…don’t think that I am ruling anything out at this point…maybe I could think to myself? I was just voicing some things here…
Also, our GIS has a mobile trailer and a brand new $10,000 plotter just for this field response purpose. This was purchased with a grant just after the Deer Creek Fire here…they are very much willing to get their hands dirty and respond to the field to fulfill our EVERY mapping need!!!
[1041] – thanks Maggie. thanks too for helping out by explaining what I was trying to say earlier tonight. lots gone by since that… just want to let you know i appreciated your initiative.
(1049) And only 3-4 hours a sleep for how many nights now because of this place. Joe I hate you! Just kidding.
1050 – our dorkiness/earnestness of all things mapping is universal
1051 – You are very welcome, Kip. Thank you!
(1050) bad choice of words…hands dirty…today I do not see the close link between the SAR feet on the ground and GIS. I need to understand how it works better today to make an assessment of how it could be closer. I think that is key.
1047 – I think when RRR was Grrring over the maps she and Thelma (excuse me) JoCo, would have torn him limb from limb were he in the same room.
JoCo / RRR, earlier you said “you” think this is how they went…did “you” mean just you two or was that the official take of larger SAR ?…relevant to gas, but also to their state of mind. If they rambled around Peavine instead of staying on BC they would be more exhausted, more frustrated, more uncertain, when they came to the fork they ultimately turned down.
I can’t remember either, what do the elevations look like along Peavine ?
Elevations look like a road on peavine!!!
1056 – sorry, oh geez..I was only representing my very own opinion there…not sure what everyone else thinks..and, like Kip says, not sure it really even matters…
1056 – Paul, I saw close to 3800 ft. Yes, more worn out, tired out, stressed out, lost, and lower on gas. That would be awful.
1057 – what ?…am refering to freezing / snow level. BC goes up to 4200 or so…how high does Peavine go ?
BTW…to me one of the biggest issues facing SAR is how to collect data, sort it out, get the wheat out from the chaffe (sp?), organize, act upon it.
If that is solved on multiple levels it will lead to more GOOD decisions which in turn should set the operational tempo.
1060 – I asked her the same thing… 🙂
Yeah yeah yeah…..creating the map took the life out of me for a bit let me let the caffine hit!!!
(1058) no apology necessary…I think he was kidding.
1058 – So JoCo what does make you think they took this awful Peavine route vs. the still awful but not as awful looking other “direct” route? Because of the coast signs pointing that way?
google maps is great, in general. but the functionality of gis is far beyond. for instance line of site maps. this is a sophisitcated calculation based on raster elevation data that we can do with esri gis in the spatial analyst extension. but the average person cannot walk along and pick up google maps and do something like that. I dont even think google earth has that kind of fuctionality to the kind of analysis we do with GIS.
gis is truly very complicated and I dont know who they have working there but I trust they are up on the latest, and the only thing holding them back is funds and jurisdictional issues.
ok I am off to bed…see you all tomorrow…JoCoSAR, RogueRiverRat and RogueRiverRat78 think about those ideas…send me your thoughts good and bad…same for the rest of youze…I am collecting all the ideas.
And those out there lurking – GET INVOLVED – let your opinion and ideas be heard – thanks Angela for stopping in.
gnite.
Glenn – I think that you are correct in some ways. Most searches are so very easy. They are not like this at all! I think that what really needs to happen, and I hope that it will with the Governor’s comments on this search, is more funding available (through grants or whatever) for SAR in general. When you have a unit with only 3 running vehicles, it is hard to justify spending time and money on incredible technology that would not be used nearly as much…I hope that I am making sense? I am certainly not opposed to your suggestions or ideas, I just think that we need to back up a tad bit…
1066 – Huh? Who? What? This is why Google Earth is as advanced as I get. You go you technical map person!
you have got to be kidding…you need a dutch brothers coffee!!!!!! You have got me; all riled up!!! Now you are going to bed?
Nighty, Glenny.
I can vouch for JoCo she is is FIRED UP!!!
Paul you still around??
Been thinking on this all day…still think they may ultimately have had BC in mind all along, never intending to turn at Roseburg. They left Seattle that morning, 3 hrs to PDX minimum…another 3 to Roseburg…with young kids many stops I am sure, and likely some shopping too….another hour to the Merlin turn-off. 7+ hours driving time MINIMUM, along with a baby and 4 month old, it’s dark, late, you’re exhausted, and then you end up on circuitious Peavine ?!?…no fan of Pacs, but I think his sunk-cost fallacy plays well into those circumstances…that or just severe exhaustion and perhaps more than a bit of panic.
(1070) get over it…you can beat up on Paul while I am gone.
mapper – I totally agree with what you are talking about…I even understood most of it! I need to figure out how to get you in touch with my GIS guy!!
Speaking of Jurisdictions – and just a what if diversion here:
How much more complicated would everything have become if the Kim’s car had been over the county line? By then was ICS in place with what coordinated multi-agency cooperation existed? Or might that have delayed things?
Just a curiousity due to the proximity to the county line. . . .
Glenn – I have come up with a good solution, you seem to be the only one in the wrong time zone..move closer so that you can stay up later talking to us! Isn’t that a great idea?!
1074 – Paul, they stayed the night in Portland the night before this. Seattle was the night prior. I’m still trying to decide about the rest, maybe sunk-cost thing to a certain degree not expecting it could get that bad until it was too late, but I don’t think I’ll ever buy the other theory that they wanted to get to their luxury lodging badly enough that they didn’t care about risks.
OH…how many times we have talked about that!!!!! Would have probably worked out the same really…since resources were already in place. Finding the car in Curry Co and James in Josephine…not much difference really..I just can’t imagine how it could have been different. All things possible I guess…All of those counties were in the same room anyway.
(1074) BTW…the sunk cost falacy used to be called “good money after bad” – it isn’t a new concept and Pac certainly didn’t come up with it.
Sure everybody wants to get to their destination, they don’t want to lose their deposit…but there is no way in hades that a loving family like the Kim’s pushed on into the wilderness with their kids in the car on purpose!
Call it what you will…sunk cost falacy is not the cause of this situation. They made a wrong turn and they got screwed – plain and simple.
Ok, stupid question department again…someone explain what “sunk-coast” is???
(1076) my point exactly…
1076 – hahah. yeah I bet working with the county you would have heard some of those terms!
see why you can’t go to sleep glenn?
(1078) I am not leaving paradise…sorry I have worked too darn hard to get here… 🙂 74 degress right now!
1082 – JoCo, I’ll give it a try, but no one explains it quite like Pac. In the most nutshell version, if I understand it correctly, you are this far into the trip that even if it starts to look bad, you keep going thinking “heck, we’ve already come this far – no point in turning around now.”
Glenn I lived in Naples for a little while…it was pretty nice….
1079 – oh no, I never bought that crock of Pac fluff…more the part that you are so far down a route that you feel you can’t turn back as you have so much time and energy invested into it that you must push on…it is late and I am sleep deprived so forgot their stay in PDX….of course, it was the lousy hotel here that would not share the card info.
1073 – yeah, still here. WHAT is this Dutch Brothers coffee thing? Excuse my ignorance, but I have never heard of it, and I drink my fair share of good java.
[1042] – thanks JoCoSAR for your response. whilst i feel in an expressive mood I want to say I appreciate your openness and willingness to speak your mind here, perhaps at some considerable personal risk. A most refreshing change from ALL public servants (if by chance you are one, of course) that I’ve ever encountered. Just imagine if Dick Cheney, as an example, could be met *face to face* in a forum environment such as here. Discussing openly and honestly the great affairs of the world? …nice to dream.
1087 – thank you maggie, I think that was the most simple definition…
1089 – Paul, I haven’t seen Dutch in PDX proper, just out in the out of the ways 🙂 And I’m grateful every day.
(1087) I believe it came from the investment world originally…hey I have already invested $100k what is another $10k. Good money after bad…
It also applies in lawsuits…if you know you can’t collect a judgement…why would spend all the money to get one?
1080 – I have this awful visual of two sheriffs (or other appointees) out back of command center having a pissing contest to see who gets to do PR announcements; etc. That would have taken till July to reveiw – arghhh. . .
1093 – Ah, thanks Glenn that origin – I see how the dots connect. Interesting.
1090 – I am here at this point to learn. Plain and simple. I am in no way above admitting that I know it all. I think that there are so many cool things happening here, that I can’t bear to stay out of it anymore. I dont think that we are talking so specific to the kims at this point that I could get into trouble. I am on an opinion finding mission. I am simply here to learn. No matter whom I work for!
(1094) Is that how they figure out who gets to do the pressers? While I’ll be…
Don’tcha Know!
1094 – How funny Maggie!! Although with your example given (PR), it would definitely be an arguement about who wasn’t gonna have to do it!!!
1097 – You betcha!!
It sure would have been easier to do that number reference thingy if Joe would have left us with a fresh page and fresh numbers darnit!!
“heck, we’ve already come this far – no point in turning around now.”
i know that syndome well. especially when hiking, climbing that next peak. determined. the getting there finding there’s one more next peak. must push on. It’s an emotional thing, a powerful driver.
1098 – Now I’m having the identity crisis – ?
Glenn – 74 degrees ??! We hate you…still, I’d rather rust in Oregon…and JoCo and RRR really have it good being close to my beloved Rogue River. Am a rare breed, was actually born here.
1102 – sorry maggie and angela…
1103 – That is rare. Most of us a implants – er, transplants.
Born in Oregon?? Me toooooo lived here in the Rogue Valley for uuuummmm over 20 years
623 I have hunted up there for 20 years+ and never seen the gate locked, I have hunted Christmas trees up there after Thanksgiving. The only gate/gates I have seen closed are the one just before the slide last year. Then you took the Peavine road up and came down the Chrome Ridge Road. A few yars ago the gate was closed on the Peavine road but now it is chipped sealed all the way to the top. They did this until they fixed the slide.
1105 – Everyone came from somewhere sometime…still, it’s a very cool place to grow up and be from, but everyone feels that way about “home” usually.
JoSoCAR
you dont have to get your gis guy in touch with me. my guess is he is a fairly young nerd like myself with his own network of other map friends of his own, held back by the same things SAR is held back by. Or, they pay him so little he is not very experienced but is learning better how to help. Some counties have huge gis departments and some have…one person. The technology is there, its all about funds and how many people you have and how much gis has been integrated into people’s workflow. but I see you have an ims so I can tell its a fairly sophisiticated operation you have.
Unfortunatley, it is usually the top decision makers that have the problem accepting GIS and its functionality, and making provisions in the budget for it as it is an emerging technology.
Bob ! – you’re back, welcome back. There was a Spencer who is local who posted in the early pages, but he went away, which was a shame because he had good things to contribute. I really think the ultimate decision on the road should be left to those who live there, it’s your home, not ours.
mapper – I had you right until the “ims” part…we actually have 2 GIS guys. They are amazing!! RRR’s dad was their boss until he retired. Everyone around here loves the GIS guys. They are almost famous and can do no wrong!! Granted, they are both looking for new jobs due to the fact that many county employees here will be laid off in January!
Bob if you don’t mind me asking….are you from here localling??
1106 – You are sooooo lucky to have the Rogue as your playground.
Back and gone. Time to hit the hay. Just wanted to post about the gates.
I have lived here since 1959….
1111. yes, many people think we are geniuses! hahaha. good to know they have the “air” as well!
IMS = Internet mapping service. I have seen that you have this on JoCo’s main web page but I havn’t spent much time exploring it.
hi and bye Bob! 🙂
🙂
mapper – thank you, now I know just what you are talking about..
1111. this is very sad, I hope they are not laid off because I wonder then who would maintain this for you.
Once again, I walk away for a minute, and I miss something. Hi Bob!
[1093] – back in engineering school we had a course entitled Engineering Economy. Sunk cost study was a big part of that course. IMO PacNWr did right by bringing it up. In fact most of his points were good. Just that people here didn’t want to listen. For example it’s not certain that the poster ‘Kati’s Dad’ is legit. I hope and think so, but could be otherwise.
Maggie, I am excited about your mapping triumphs today, I still havn’t gotten around to looking at any of the creations today. It’s like I can’t bring myself to look at another map! 🙂
DOn’t look at my map its BAD…….Its like trying to be an artist stick figure verses oil painting
1124 hahaha. well that kinda makes me want to look!
1123 – Mapper, like I said, all I did was trace it – you are in no danger, I promise 🙂 I do enjoy it, though. Google Earth is amazing to me. I was able to find this place in Gifford Pinchot (in WA) on there where I had once been and haven’t been able to find since by following it along in Google Earth.
1122 I honestly did not think his points were good. Its not just emotional.
1126. Maggie, no, I think its very cool. Really google earth and gis are two different things. I think google earth is a great resource.
1124 / RRR – don’t be so hard on yourself, it’s your first effort. You’ll be a Van Gogh someday!
1122 – Kip, I do agree that when Pac was making an attempt at being civil and not trying to be shocking or deliberately offensive, he did bring up some good points and even possible theories. Without saying what’s been said a million times, it was all in the presentation. Zero delicacy there on any good points and then purposely over the top on the ridiculous points meant to antagonize. One word – troll. I was wrong when I said I’d never called him a name. I called him that one. And I meant it.
I’m convinced that Kati’s Dad is Kati’s dad for as many reasons as I find Pac offensive. And even if I’m wrong (which I doubt this time), it doesn’t make anything Pac said any more sensitive or appropriate in presentation.
Just my $0.02.
I think I will stick with my ground pounding
1127 – I’m no Pac fan, but think he had relevant points when he stayed on topic, which was only about 1/4rd of the time, the rest of the time he was sermonizing, slamming people, being sarcastic, snide and offensive to just about everyone – even those who agreed with some of his points. I thrilled he’s departed.
Maggie…you are right. No need to second guess yourself. That was Kati’s dad, and pac is ….well whatever you want to call him, I have other words I like better.
1124, 1131 – River (since it’s easier than typing RRR for some reason to me…), you picked it up immediately. I spent quite awhile before I was able to come up with the paths I traced out. With no practice at all, you got it done.
1132 – What’s 1/4rd?? That struck me as funny for a new measurement 🙂
1134- Why thank you I believe it has to do with the tech geekness I have in my blood….I know just enough to get myself in trouble
1130 – you, my hopeful friend, said it better than I did. I am in typo h— again tonight. Can’t stay awake much longer.
1131 – Ground pounding ??? I thought you ran a posh resort ?
1137 – I think Pac has finally zapped my hope as far as he/she (I’ll still eat my sock if Pac’s not a he) goes. Up until the deletion tonight, I thought maybe. Everything else is hopeful, but even for me, that’s a lost cause.
1137- I do run a resort…..Remember I am a volunteer for SAR, Ground Pounding AKA searcher….
1/4rd started out as 1/3rd and then I changed it, but forgot to change the letters.
1139 – I was just kind of curious how one would go about pronouncing 1/4rd…
Wish I has seen that deletion….no, actually, I guess I am glad that I didn’t. If it was bad enough for Joe to finally step in it must have been pretty offensive.
1140 – So River, if you can say (won’t it be nice after the 5th?), does that mean you are not one of the office/paper people but one of the on the ground doing people?
Well funny you ask that………………………..I started as a Ground person at one point……….and now well……I plead the till the the 5th
[1130] … Maggie, if it were all abuse, i’d share your view. but otherwise I like the idea of leaving it up to the individual reader to glean any nuggets possibly shared and to overlook any accompanying crud.
Somehow I have gotten a promotion to being one of the office/paper people……THanks to JoCo
1144 – Fair enough. Whatever you are, we’re glad that you are here.
I saw it Paul…you would not have found it terribly surprising.
1145 – It was left up to the individual, and I did find a couple of “nuggets” (I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist that…). Most of what Pac has said has not been deleted, so I think Joe was more than fair.
Well, I am going to attempt to get a reasonable amount of sleep tonight for a change. It has been yet another interesting day…isn’t technology fascinating ?
1150 – Goodnight, Paul!
I believe I am JoCo are not far behind you heading sign off…..
RRR – are you a raft person or a kayak person ? I have a theory.
yeah, it might be an early night for me too hhahaa. 2am. good night.
1146 – So I would think having been on the ground and then into the office that you’d have some decent insight into both sides – that’s a good thing.
Well it may depend on your theory as to my answer……J/K I love to guide a raft but I love to play in a Kayak on my own.
Well, I’m coffeed up, so I’ll be checking in once in awhile. Goodnight to all being reasonable about sleep needs.
1155- Well yes I can relate a bit more to those who have not been in the field…..However if I had a choice its always nicer SOMETIMES to be in the field.
1156 – with that I am off to the land of sheets and covers…my theory was you were a kayaker at heart….when I was guiding the more adventurous ones were, which fits with your SAR avocation.
1159- Welp I would believe you must have me figured out! Have good rafting dreams!
Just rounding the bend at the top of Mule Creek, the current picks up, the Jaws beckon…it’s a whitewater sleigh ride !!! Goodnight.
1149 – Kip, just in case, that really was not meant to be directed back at you. I just couldn’t resist a pun like that. I understand what you are saying. I think I just have a slightly different opinion.
So is it a girly night now??
I thought you were going to bed… I’m still here. Not sure who may be lurking. It’s the perfect time for someone to jump in if you’ve been reading along and wanting to say something.
Has JoCoSAR left us again for the evening?
Nope we are both still here……I just thought we might not be FAR behind leaving…..but who knows looking at more maps….
Are maggie and mapper still here??
I’m still here, but I think mapper left.
If you can say, JoCo, has your almost “sequestering” changed a bit?
JoCo has a new idea that she is avidly typing away for ya
1170 – This is the joy of you both being in the same room – if there is a lag due to extensive typing, one of you can advise… that’s kind of cool!
Ok, so I have a scenario…not sure why it still matters to me, but here I go…they didn’t leave Roseburg until about 8:30. It would have taken them about 2 1/2 hrs to get to the turnoff at merlin galice road in bad weather (raining or snow). I would think that if they took the straight bear camp road and not peavine, it wouldnt have taken them until 130am to get to the junction (assuming that’s where the first possibility for a ping would have been). I think that I remember Kati saying that they stopped the car at about 2:30. Would it have made sense that it would have taken them about an hour to drive from the junction of 23 and 34-8-36? Hmmmm?? timeline sounds just about right. I am sticking with my Peavine route. Not sure again why it matters, but it does to me….
I have to say with looking at maps and comparing it to the mental pictures I have of a map I saw with the possible “ping” area’s and with having driven that road I somewhat have to agree……..
1172 – JoCo, you know far more about it than I would. Most of the reports I read mentioned leaving Roseburg at 9:00PM and stopping at 2:00AM. Still pings at 1:30AM.
Do you guys say that there is actually a sign to the coast that could lead drivers onto the Peavine route?
Yes and it is the first sign you come across when you turn off Merlin Galice Rd….It is the most logical for those who are just following signs blindly
I was trying to read above and not ask the same things, but I don’t think I asked this… Why would it direct someone over the Peavine route instead of on the “straight” road? Does that also have to do with the Biscuit fire and/or landslides or other road changes? Is it a “better” route? As you may be able to tell, I’ve never been out that way…
It is left over signage from when BC was closed due to a landslide as it is now closed for it….. Its not a better route
In your travel timeline analysis have you made allowance for delays when they were ‘backing up in the snow’ and for the time they spent stuck in the snow where they ~used up a lot of gas~ before getting under way again?
From the sounds of things as to what we have heard they really only got stuck at the ending spot trying to turn around….Yes we allowed for bad weather driving, slow, moveing obsticals out of their way and so forth.
1178 – OK, the lightbulb goes on. Thank you!
Ok well since the light is on and it is a bit brighter….. I believe I will head on out to my own house now…..Was a nice chat tonight, those catching up think on the route info for peavine and look at the map….I think its even starting to make sense in my head! Good-nite!
[1162] — Maggie, thanks for the clarification. You are perceptive! Yes, I was puzzled by your response but thot it best not to maybe muddy the waters more by addressing the issue. A bad habit of mine, sweeping things I’d rather not face under the carpet hoping they’d go away or that they didn’t exist.
BTW in my book Joe’s a hero. And there are not many heros in my book! I commend him for the tolerant, humble, encouraging manner in which he conducts himself here and for the unique and excellent work he is doing with this, his blog.
1182 – Please feel more than free to take out my incorrect version of the Peavine route and re-post it. It might make it less confusing. You can actually just right-click on it to delete it along with the pushpin. Might make it less confusing. Good night, and thank you for your insight – again!
Your very much welcome and the one I posted I believe did not have your line on it…..JoCoSAR says good night to we believe she got stuck in moderation again….she has been typing but nothing seems to be posting again. Good night all!
1183 – We definitely agree that Joe’s pretty darn cool for letting us all kind of take over in here! Glad you understand the spirit in which I intended my comment – in my own mind some things are so hilarious, but they do not always translate well online.
1185 – Oops! You are correct, I just had my drawing clicked to show up as well in Google Earth. JoCoSAR, keep trying because I’d love to hear whatever you have to say!
Hi guys,
I just am compelled to say. I am still awake and am following along, but my brain is kinda like cheese whiz having worked on maps of my own for the last…almost 24 hours. So, I’m content to sorta sit back and just read what you all are talking about and am just sort of fascinated by all the conversation and your great activities. I have looked at a couple of the google earth maps but I just am not in analysis mode to think too much about it but all your theories sound interesting.
I want you to know, Maggie, you are not alone. I am also compelled to tell you, that, I slept on the floor of my office last night/morning! So, I basically fell asleep at my desk too! But it was a first for me! It really wasn’t comfortble but I had convinced myself I could get more work done in less time if I just stayed there, and I got almost a whole weeks worth of work done (it being a holiday week and all and I was the only one there). I didn’t plan it, so only had my jacket as a pillow. I have to say, even though I did get a few hours of sleep in, the few times I woke up and thought, this is not comfortable…I thought of the kim’s in their car. Not fun.
Anyway, time to sleep for real, not on the floor! Great work guys!
sunk cost–Gresham’s Law–anchoring–goal fixation.
Whatever terminology is used there often is a tendancy to push on rather than deviate and often that tendancy is the correct one. Sometimes a pilot who did not make a 180 when he should have is better off continuing onward. Sometimes its a matter of ‘known versus unknown’. You know how bad the past few miles have been and how difficult it is going to be to turn around and find your way back. You don’t know for sure how much further you have to go but you so desperately want to imagine yourself as having ‘almost reached the crest’ and so it will soon be downhill to Gold Beach. Amidst the uncertainty of not knowing where they were, fatigue, hunger, the decision making skills need not have been impaired. It would be tempting to even say that most people would indeed press onward and hope for the best.
I just viewed the link to the pictures of the side road James & Katie took. Wow, I don’t know what average logging roads/side roads are in Oregon, but here in WV this looks like some normal mountain roads, not anything like a logging or side road. If I were traveling that road, I’d think this was a standard mountain road, not a logging or side road.
1188 – Mapper, I wondered if you were still out there reading along. I didn’t actually get to sleep at my desk – I wanted to, but I did have coffee. I have thought more than once lately when getting into my cold car that it could not have been even remotely comfortable for the Kim’s either, and sleeping would not have been easy. I was grateful in a new way that I could turn on the heat – I hate being cold more than most things. Enjoy your full night of nap in a real bed.
GIS–Geo Coding
It would seem to me that with all the retirees, Boy Scout troops, church groups, youth offender centers and work release details, there should be enough manpower to obtain GIS data on roadways, signage, pipelines, hydrants, etc.
Even if search teams did not have GPS units, more precise data as to locations could have been obtained so that partially searched roads could be precisely determined as ‘searched as far as point x’.
another thing to consider perhaps… the Kims driving at night, light snow falling, windshield wipers doing their job well of clearing the glass, heater on so it’s cozy, headlights lighting the way ahead sufficiently well, making way slowly but ok. I’ve been there quite a few times. Feeling quite secure snug inside the car, shielded from the blackness and chillyness of the outside away from the car. Can give a false sense of security, I know. So you push on a bit further. Till maybe you can’t or until the stark reality of the situation sets in.
No one noticed this so while everyone’s asleep I get to be the one to point it out. Hope Pac is listening because it might mess up some of his theory. Anyways, Pac ha been emphasizing how many warning signs they drove by on their way up the mountains. My question is: If they took the Peavine route, are there any warning signs on it? Once you take that detour and get back to BC, are there any of those warning signs between there and THE FORK? I wonder if the first warning sign they saw was the one right after the fork in the road?
JocoSar
I read your theory and Kips questions shortly after and i was wondering the same thing. I recall reading that kati said they got stuck and it took a LONG (she emphasized) time and gas to get unstuck. Does that work with your proposed timeline/route?
Just wondering…
great question dk.
Think I’m beginning to catch up some, at least on pg. 4 of posts – mama got a laptop for Xmas – as I’m catching up, I’m jotting down a few thoughts- and as I jot down these thoughts, I mean not to offend anyone, but I do have an opinion and every opinion has an opposing opinion, an opinion is just that – not a determination of facts – as well as I’ve only been able to catch up on page four, there may be some info I’ve missed by not yet being able to go back further to catch up, which would be over a week of posts.
Why the story caught my interest – my family has been a fan of James Kims since we first saw him on Tech TV or was he on even when it was ZDTV – along with several other personalities there. James light just sparkled through. Then when I found out more of the details of the story – it touched my heart as well as there were several times in my life I found myself in potentially tragic circumstances due to just making human mistakes and it definitely has the ‘but for the grace of (I will use God, but one can insert anything one chooses here) go I. As well as thinking of those two babies…
I turned to the internet for more information as the information from the tube and the interviews I saw, things just didn’t ‘add up’, somethings just didn’t seem quite right about the search – I was looking for solid info, not opinions and was running into nothing but opinions until I landed here as well as here the people did try to find facts and base opinion of researched facts and try their best to be decent to each other. One can disagree in a civil manner, they do not have to be brutal, cruel or mean to do so.
Hearing from Katie – I also would like to hear from Katie, not to criticize what they did or didn’t do, but simply from a human interest. I do not fault or blame Katie nor James in any way what so ever. But if Katies never speaks out, I’m fine with that. Katie did not seek media & public attention and when thrust upon her, she has not fanned it nor has she used her little girls as some would. Yes, she’s made a few comments on Yelp, but I have a feeling one of several things – she had to let frustration out somehow – sometimes your emotions are so drained, you just don’t think or care what you do – or she made the statements for a purpose & if this was the case, as she hasn’t ‘milked’ her family’s story, then she had a very good reason for doing so and that reason is her’s and I have no problem with her doing so.
I think James could’ve/should’ve been saved – not only that, I think the whole family should’ve been found sooner. Buring THREE tires…enough smoke to …
well, I’ll just stop there on that one … there are other issues which bother me also,, but this one really sticks with me & to keep from repeating, many of Glens and Lisa’s concerns & questions I have also…
I’m not trusting the ‘official’ report to supply the answers… circling the wagons, etc., small town, big fish in little sea, etc. Am not faulting the acutal searchers, but do have some serious concerns about the ‘officials’.
Someone earlier mentioned the Sago disaster – this is my neck of the woods and there was the same going on there as I mentioned small town, etc.
The first reports came out it was all the miners fault, then slowly, slowly only through constant media attention, it has come out just how much the ‘officials’ were at fault. NONE of those miners should’ve died. Although I may have missed the very latest, the latest to my knowledge is all the families were called together to be given an official report and junk was thrown at them in a junk manner – even the governor was there and he shut it down because of this. The more the truth is coming out, the more is shown how much the officials were at fault, and a great deal of fault was due to officials not following regulations which were in place. The ONLY way the truth will come out is to keep media attention focused on it, as with the Kim SAR. I do give my apologies to the local SAR people who are posting here, no offense intended to you personally, but I KNOW how small town’s work & how small town officials work. My hope is the unlings don’t get sacrificed to save the officials, if the officials need saving.
Regarding James’ death as well as the Sago miners, that they shouldn’t have died when & how they did – part of me believes when it’s your time to go, nothing can stop it and even if it is averted, something else will just happen again — but part of me says, no these people shouldn’t have died when & how they did and even if it were there time, there were serious, serious mistakes made by the officials in both cases. The one thing which can make it bearable is that good comes from these things. Light shined where light wasn’t shining and needed to be shined, improvements made where improvements shouldn’t have to have such tragedies to be made.
Katie’s dad posting, you have my utmost respect.
Dutch Brothers is in route.
Correction: underlings
Good Morning!
1197- Very good points Frances, I HEARD that they actually burnt all 4 tires of the car, however it was at nightime so visually would have been hard to see the smoke.
1194- As for the warning signs on BC the Peavine road turn off is the FIRST one you come, I know they would pass at least ONE warning sign on Merlin Galice Road, I do believe at the mouth of Peavine there is a general warning sign about Peavine but done qoute me on that….I will have to look when I go home….
1200- I hadn’t realized it was nighttime, not sure if I recall one way or the other, but here is another point which sticks with me and it may be just too, whatever – picky or not apply at all. Three tires creates a heck of a lot of smoke & although heat rises, the coldness of the air there wouldn’t it have kept the smoke from completely disappearing by day? It takes some time to burn three tires.
(1200) They should have piled on as many boughs as they could have gathered and kept a strong fire going – 24/7. I know hindsight is 20/20 but if anyone else is reading this…remember fire is most important in survival and should be kept going 24/7. When pine is available you should have a pile next to the fire…when you hear a helicopter, etc…pile them on…smoke follows!
Pac’s allegations that Kati and James ignored multiple warning signs are just simply wrong based upon what Kati has told me. Again, clarification specifics will come in time from her.
I never saw what Pac wrote that got him censored, but I think it makes sense. The discussion here may ultimately lead to implementation of some very useful changes in procedures, road signs in risk areas, map alterations, individual responsibility (example: leave travel itinerary or plan frequent phone contact with family or friends),etc.
I hope that in the formal review process the issue of how private and individual search, rescue, and recovery efforts can best be coordinated with publically funded resources will be examined in ernest.
Inevitably, there will always be elements of chaos in these cases, but developing or improving guidelines and protocols will improving chances of lives.
Glen, isnt is nearly impossible to get wet pine to burn?
I’m just remember back to when I was a kid as well as time spent on my grandparents farm. Could the heat of the tire fire been enough to dry the pine out enough, once thrown on a large fire.
Also, I did not know until reading here that a test message takes less resources than a phone call, am passing that info on to my daughter, who now informs me SHE already knew @this@
120- Yes this very true I believe that many have questioned the smoke and length of tires burning I know I have personally..
Is there a way to edit a note once written? I notice the last few words of 1204 are muddled.
Kati’s dad, anything Pac post is best ignored. Nothing one responds back to him or regardless of the manner, makes any difference to him. He just wants to inflame & attack. We’ve tried it all.
(1207)…nope…just get used to typos, grammatical errors, etc…goes with the territory of posting online.
1204- Very well put, Kati’s Dad!
I just retraced the route of BC to Peavine, to BC back to 38.8.36 and it was a trip of 36.14 miles
1207- Unfortunately, there’s no editing! It happens to
all of us!
(1205) eventually the will burn…more importantly is the amount of smoke that green, wet pine boughs will produce.
A lot of people that get stranded think they will be rescued “tomorrow”…however from a survival standpoint you need to inventory absolutely everything you have, then plan and gather resources for 3 days, 7 days, etc…a planning mentality will greatly increase your odds for survival – planning and executing actually keeps you busy and focused on achieving small goals…each accomplishment piles on confidence and increases postive attitude.
Frances makes a good point about circling the wagons. I had thought about that myself. We’ll just have to wait and see. I’m sure we will pick apart every detail and discover any attempt to hide stuff.
(1214) I am trying to keep an open mind about this…one big difference in this case…is that the investigation is really being driven from the Governor’s office…that should plow though the local politics, etc…
But as you said…we will examine every detail.
Yay – Frances! I’m so glad you’re back!
1205- Yes, here in the rainy parts of Oregon most all wood has to be cut and dried before it can really burn –
depending on how thick the tree is. And they only had
access to smaller limbs/branches.
1216- Hey, RRR (you and JoCoSAR have the hardest names to
type! – Your mystery aliases!) Are most of the trees around
there Douglas Fir?
(1217) If they are Douglas fir you will always be able to find dead branches on them…
1217- Yes we mostly have doug fir up in the elevations when you drop down lower we have pine also…I am ok with RRR
1218- There is also alot of moss in the area….granted you might get a fire started….the key would to be able to keep it going with VERY wet products
good morning to all!
When you’re talking rainy or snowy Oregon (it’s all about
elevation), you’re talking Wet, Wet, Wet, and more Wet.
You’re talking unbelieveable saturation! Where you step
on the ground and water oozes out of it because the ground
is too saturated to take it all in yet!
There is moss growing on my car! Lots of moss!
Didn’t I read somewher where Katie said they tried to find wood to burn but it was too wet & they even put some under they’re car to try to dry it out – I’m taking that to mean to keep more rain or snow on the wood and maybe he heat of the car to help dry it out?
Thank you, Lisa, but can’t be here much longer and returns will be short and intermittent.
1222- It isn’t that saturated all the time – but it happens,
often. In one house I lived in where the basement would
leak when it rained – a mushroom grew on someone’s sneaker
down there! It was crazy!
Good morning
Dr. Fleming, I want to address your posting on 1204 – I think that you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of “organized chaos!” I am not sure that there is ever a way to avoid that in a large case like this. I am not sure how long you have been reading along with this, but I will tell you if you haven’t noticed, RRR and myself were directly involved in this search and are trying to be very careful about what we speak of here to not jeopardize the investigation that we asked for. This investigation was called for by us local SAR people. We watched as the media used us as a scapegoat for the event, even to report untruths alltogether, or only half truths. Instead of firing back at them, we decided to have an official outside investigation. What I am saying is that I know that this search did not go perfectly. I have never seen one that has…especially this size. I am hoping that this report will outline what things need to be fixed. The list will definitely be very long. My hope is that people will give their opinions and suggestions on better ways to fix those things whether it be here or in some other fashion. I dont mind at all sharing our laundry list, I just want the correct laundry list to be shared.
I can tell you that I do not think that anything was done in such a manner that if done differently, James would still be alive. Those here can debate that comment all day long. You have to understand my perspective. I was there. I have reviewed everything over and over…not just while awake either! Please know that I am connnected to this event in a way that I will never be able to explain to anyone. I love this family.
I am here to learn, as I mentioned before. I hope that the report reveals what needs to be revealed. I also hope that I can come back after the 5th and answer some unanswered questions. Keep in mind that I will only do that if the questions are asked intelligently. I am not going to humor questions like “why didn’t you find him alive.” I am not sure that questions like that can be answered. Processes can be fixed and policies can be fixed. I continue to be one person. All of the responsibility and none of the authority. I am going to do my best. I want to be a better SAR….please keep that in mind…
Oh geez!!! What a ramble…sorry! Guess I need more coffee?
what the??… Im on a friends computer and there’s no refresh button
Also remember that all of the tires were burned before anyone was called to that area to search for them…there are searchers just “patrolling” that area looking for smoke signals…
1228 try F5
thanks. found it. I will furthermore blame any mistakes or ignorant comments on sleep deprivation. k?
JoCo I so wanted to look up the time frame for this but haven’t had the time to do the research. Lisa, you seem to be excellent at research…hint hint. time line, when tires were burned, when ‘copters were in the air, according to news reports.
JoCo, I do understand your position.
(1227) Your absolutely right…we cannot change what has happened…we can only work together to improve it for everyone down the road.
1232/1233 thanks.
1223- I think you may be right Frances – that sounds familiar.
And I bet James would have even had a harder time starting
a fire in the Big Windy Creek area. It seems it would have been even wetter, and if he had been successful, he might have worried about it getting out of control – with such dense forest there. He probably just wanted to put all his
energy into trying to keep warm and making progress in
terms of distance.
1221- Good morning JoCoSAR!
Frances, therein lies the issue of how accurate those news reports are….
1235 – I do not think that James had the means to start a fire in the drainage where he slept. I would imagine that if I were in that position though, a large forest fire would be a great signal to authorities…or not?! It was so wet down there, I can’t imagine that a fire would have had any opportunity to get out of control!! too bad…
JoCoSar,
I read the he had lighters on him. I read that he had two.
1236 – very true tara. I think that answer could only come from Kati now. Once she has had a chance to recount all of the days and all of the fires built. I can tell you however, that from Friday on, there were helicopters overhead that would have seen ANY smoke from that area. I think that Rachor even mentioned once that he wouldn’t have seen the car until he was DIRECTLY overhead…needle in a haystack theory once again!
1238 – if you read that, it would have been a recollection of what was taken with him from the car. I don’t believe (I may be wrong), that he had ANY when he was found.
1240 – also, about the lighters…if he had one on him when found, remember that there were places in the drainage he would have had to SWIM! I am not sure if any of you have had to try to start a soaked lighter before???
Is Angela still around in here anywhere?
Kim — whose family told rescuers he had some outdoor experience and had eaten berries while stranded, not knowing if they were poisonous — took two lighters with him when he left the car, Anderson said. “Maybe he got a fire going,” he said at a news conference.
http://wcco.com/topstories/topstories_story_339074218.html
One of the multiple news stories reporting this. Probably a stupid point but I am frustrated with what appears to be lots of inaccuracies from the news. Just wondering if this too was inaccurate.
Again, even if he had them, I know he was swimming neck deep at times and probably couldnt have gotten a fire going but its wierd they werent found.
As I have said before, there were many inaccuracies reported. I do believe that he left the vehicle with two lighters, what I am saying is that I know he wasn’t found with two lighters.
1241- I thought about the wet lighter problem – that’s true
too.
I think they may have burned the first 3 tires on Thursday?
I will research.
I think the problems he might have considered with building a fire in the Creek if your lighters were working is
mainly two-fold:
1) It’s so wet on the ground it’s hard to find enough dry material/ or an area to build
2) You still may be concerned about a fire getting out of
control if you started one, because of the nature of fire
and it’s abilities to consume fuel, even damp, if it gets
big enough (Also the higher parts of the trees wouldn’t have been so wet. Plus you’re down in a narrow canyon.
Does it really sound like a good idea to start a fire
down there where you could easily get trapped by it?
THIS IS THE TIMELINE AS REPORTED BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Nov. 17: James and Kati Kim and their two daughters leave San Francisco in their family car for Seattle.
Nov. 24: The Kims leave Seattle for Portland.
Nov. 25: The Kims have dinner at Roseburg and leave around 9 p.m., planning to take Highway 42 to the coast, but miss the turnoff. They take Bear Camp Road, planning to take it to the coast. At 10:30 p.m., the Kims spot signs warning that winter conditions might make driving difficult. They turn back and end up on a side road about 15 miles north of Bear Camp Road.
Nov. 26: Around 2 a.m. the Kims are running out of gas. They stop at a forked intersection and call for help on their cell phone, but are unable to get service. It rains and snows all day. The Kims start up their car for heat.
Nov. 27: It snows all day. The Kims try to stay warm by running the heat in the car, but only periodically to conserve gasoline.
Nov. 28: The Kims remain in their car. It snows and rains all day.
Nov. 29: Weather starts to clear. The Kims start fires with magazines and wet driftwood to stay warm.
Nov. 30: The Kims use a spare tire to start a fire in the afternoon.
Dec. 1: They burn all four remaining tires to signal for help and for heat. The fire burns out in the afternoon. They hear a helicopter, but can’t locate it.
Dec. 2: About 7:45 a.m. James leaves the car in search of help. He builds a fire for Kati and the children, and says that he will return by 1 p.m. The Kims think the town of Galice is 4 miles away. It is about 15 miles away. James sets out for Galice, walking on a road for about 5 miles before turning off down the Big Windy Creek ravine.
Dec. 2: Kati Kim sees and hears a helicopter but fails to get its attention. James Kim doesn’t return in the afternoon.
Dec. 4: 1:45 p.m. A helicopter searcher spots Kati Kim and her children at their family car. They are taken to Three Rivers Community Hospital and released in good health.
Dec. 5: Search and rescue personnel find clothes identified as those of James Kim, arranged in a pattern that may have been intended to give searchers clues to his whereabouts.
Dec. 6: The body of James Kim is found at the bottom of Big Windy Creek. He had walked a little over 10 miles, but his body was only about a mile from the car.
Tara, I know from personnal experience that the reporters will get things wrong and sometimes misrepresent things on purpose. But also they often get things right. JoCo says there were a lot of things especially the main article reported was wrong. A lot of the wrong reporting seems directly related to the undersherriff.
Again, lets hope the official report clears up some of these things. And I have never agreed with Pac, but his statments regarding the reporters are true. Certainly they tapped thier interviews and if so, it can be gone over to see what was mis-reported and what was not.
I didn’t say that what Anderson said was wrong, I am saying that if he left with two, he was not found with two. That part is correct.
Good job, Ellen. So it’s hard to determine if there were copters in the air during any of the time they had a fire going, I guess.
There is a true story about a couple who got lost in the mountain woods in California. The temp dropped below freezing at night. They spent two nights freezing huddled together. Third day they stumbled on an old campsite (turned out to be a campsight of a lost hike that died in that spot a year before). They found the campers belongings and found matches. They wanted to start a fire to signal. They started a small fire (for fear of starting a forrest fire). A helicopter flew right over them. When they saw they helicopter not notice them they said they didnt care if they burned the whole forrest down. They made the fire huge and were rescued. (and the deceased hiker was returned to his family)
I cant help but think after all those days in the car, then the despiration that lead to the hike out (and the drainage) and desire to save his family, that man wouldve lit that forrest up in a heart beat if he could have. IMHO.
Well, will check back when I can. Duty calls.
JoCo – Wow, I was not feeling well last night and fell asleep early. Took me forever to play catch up this a.m.! As I recall, there were conflicting reports on the fires. First, it was reported after Kati’s rescue that they had burned all the tires, then that they had burned them all at night. Then, there were other reports that they had started fires during the day, but I’m unclear if those involved tires or not. Now I’m mad that I didn’t catalogue all of this info at the time for easy retrieval.
JoCo, after reading over my comment again, it reads as if I meant you stated most of the mis reporting was realted to the undersherriff. That’s not what I meant. That statment is on opinion of mine, NOT anything JoCo said.
1252 – I agree…I would think that regardless of what was printed, one day Kati will tell us all with a clear mind. I have read conflicting reports as well. As I didn’t speak to Kati of this personally, I would have to only look at news reports as well.
1253 – thanks for clarification. I just didn’t want to be noted here as criticizing anyone (ok, except the media!).
1227- Also JoCoSAR
We appreciate your knowledge and you being here. We are
just asking the questions we have. Most of the questions we would be asking whether you were here your not. It is great that you are here to help, and give your perspective.
We all believe that you and RRR truly tried and did the
best that you thought you could do at the time, given the
your roles and the pressure, etc.
And we know you can’t answer all the questions now – but
at the same time, it wouldn’t be right for us to not ask
the questions we have just because you are here, and we wouldn’t want you to take them the wrong way.
A shorter version of saying this is – no one is attacking
you, and unless we get some other person who gets out of
line, no one is going to attack you on or after the 5th!
We are just trying to learn and understand what happened
in all aspects of the situation, because that is the best
way to truly learn from it.
No problem, it was my mistake. Now really gotta go.
Y’all are too fast for me today. By the time I post about something, it’s been answered above my post! Makes for strange reading…
Agreed, wholeheartedly, Lisa.
thank you Lisa..I am really not being over sensitive today, I was really just trying to make a point to Dr. Fleming. More so just sum things up. He may not have a chance to catch up around here, so I saw him here and thought I would try to at least address some certain issues in that posting, that’s all. I have pretty thick skin, and I will continue to answer the questions that I am able to answer. I am still being VERY careful about the investigation however. Please remember that. I also know that I may be subject to criticism after the 5th, and I am ok with that as well…as long as I am criticised for the RIGHT things that we did WRONG….
1256 – also, I hope that you keep asking questions. I would hope that you are all keeping them logged somewhere so that you can re-ask them next weekend. Note to self – make no personal plans away from the computer next weekend!!
Good morning to all! I’ll have a new page up shortly for comments. OK to keep posting your comments here for now.
If this keeps up I think I should open up a coffee shop (or a “Joe’s Bar and Grill”)… but I guess it would be a long drive for many of you.
I would come to your bar!!!
1246 It is already known here that parts of that timeline are wrong. At least it is wrong in where the car was in relation to where he was found.
1242 – Hello JoCo . . . I’m here in between studying and working . . .
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