The Kim Story discussion continues in the comments below. Please feel free to chime in.
For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages click here.
Joe Duck
Have Blog. Will Travel. Vaccinate!
The Kim Story discussion continues in the comments below. Please feel free to chime in.
For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages click here.
The Kim Story discussion continues in this comment section.
Please feel free to chime in.
For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages go here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/kim-story/
Joe – how many total posts 🙂 Wow!
About the painted directions at the intersection. I do believe it is possible to overlook even in the best of weather and a bright sun. They are also non-standard and I think some pedople would ignore a homemade direction like that.
Mapper…you are smart and intuitive. 🙂
dkf747
spray painted directions speak volumes in and of themselves….
homeade directions are never a good sign (no pun intended:)
Joe Duck is a very good man! 🙂
1381,1386 Glenn and Paul’s comments
This has been my main question. Why didn’t they go back the way they came? Kati did say that they were running low on gas from their efforts to get out of the snow in some article. Were they 2 miles from 34 down the spur they took to turn around? My main confusion has been that I thought Bear Camp Rd. was the name of the whole road. And Paul cleared that up for me.
I had so much trouble getting the page to refresh, then froze up, rebooted a couple of times, I don’t know if I got an answer, if anyone knows, at to where the Viewpoint is that Kati referred to as near their turn around or backing down point.
Is it on Bear Camp or BLM34-8-? If the Viewpoint is on 34 before it intersects with BC/FS23, then it makes sense that they never went on BC/23 at all, but took the right option at the intersection of BC/23 and 34 and then drove to the Viewpoint, backed down or took the spur off of that road, drove lower to get out of the snow.
Does anyone have a link to a map that shows the names on the road and how it changes from Galice Creek Rd. (is that also called 23 along with BC?) and to Bear Camp? And does it show the Viewpoint?
If you can help me with this, then I’ll get to my real work and leave you all alone!
It’s my mom’s 93rd birthday today and she requested chocolate chip cookies for her freezer stash, so best be getting those baked.
Wow, that was smoother than I thought it would be.
I’m trying to simplify searching and navigation by putting relevant links on this page which is listed at the top of *every* page of Joe Duck:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/kim-story/
Paul re: how many comments? The first six pages all went over 1000 comments. Total comments are now approx 6600!
1387/Mapper: I’m inclined to agree with you, the most critical element is the maps. There are NO signs, anywhere, on I-5 directing drivers to Merlin et al as a possible coast route. Beyond the maps it is ambiguous signage; there should be a sign at the junction/turnoff before Galice that unequivocally states the potential dangers ahead.
That does not answer why they continued on down the fork, which is still a germane question, but in terms of preventing a recurrence, the maps and the signs seem crucial.
Also, for what it’s worth, I think Mr. Wilson sounds too polite and reasonable to be Pac, despite his Seattle address.
5 mapper, Yes, they do speak volumes! I am trying to imagine driving and coming upon them. I would not trust them completely, and would wonder why they were there, but I would just go the way I think is right. At least before this tragedy happened that’s probably what I would have done. There’s a reason for the standards.
Orygungirl are you on a dial-up internet connection?
Any error messages?
Are other people having problems with the page loading? Even with all the comments these pages are not huge, just large. However I think WordPress is not used to so many comments in such a short time.
7/Orygungirl: The summit rest stop is on FS23 aka Bear Camp. Several of us have expressed doubts they EVER made it that far. That is at 4000′ plus and if snow was the issue, it seems unlikely they would have made it that far.
Joe remember Maggie’s last Google Earth map, maybe that link could go at the top of a page as a permanent entry, because there will be all sort of directions and areas described in the OSSA report.
Joe, I jsut submitted a long paragraph and it didn’t load. I think we are all catching up and trying not to get behind! I am much better at baking than blogging, so here I go.
11 – No problem here, Joe. 🙂
I am on AFN, computer less than a year old.
11/ No page loading probs here.
Lost that post, so will repeat more briefly…
During my overnight Mt. Hood blooper, we did go back the way we came after the 9 hours to get the car out of the “jello snow”. We questioned that decision as we had driven in going happily down the east facing slopes that were a foot of snow, and back up the west facing slopes with less snow. We knew we would have to navigate those snowy east facing slopes (several of them) and that it would be risky enough that we thought we would have to walk out the 10 or so miles we had come in. The road ahead looked much better than the one we had to backtrack on and there were even tire tracks, but we decided known was better than unknown.
I think the Kims may have thought going back the way they came, if they had been driving in the snow for a while on that road, was riskier than night than taking the spur road. In many cases it was a better decision to wait out the storm. Not this time, unfortunately. I’m still unsure if they drove more than 2 miles as Kati said after the decision to spend the night. More than 2 miles downhill on the spur road to get out of the snow.
Oh, I know what I did. I lost that submission because I refreshed insteat of clicking submit. My error. I have done that more than once since my mouse is constantly jumping up there to refresh.
5 The viewpoint is on FS23.
As to the name Bear Camp Road – it is the most confusing road to identify. On some maps it appears the
FS23 is Bear camp rd. while 34-8-36 is both Galice Creek rd and Galice access road. Locals say that 34-8-36 from Galice to the intersection is part of Bear Camp RD. That’s probably the true one, but it seems to me that what one person calls Bear Camp rd is not the same as what another person thinks it is. Two things about that: one, I wonder if there are street signs that identify it as Bear Camp rd? (I’ve seen the pics identifying it as 34-8-36) The second thing, the yellow warning signs say Bear camp rd. with a 23 marker on it. So based on the signs it appears that Bear Camp rd is FS23, and not 34-8-36, but the locals refer to the whole thing as Bear Camp Rd. Does this help clear it up? If it does, explain it to me please. 🙂
Another thought that came to me while typing the above. The warning signs say, “Bear Camp Rd. May be closed…”, but no sign says the spurs may be closed. Since the ODOT map says the same thing, the absence of signs about the spurs might have led them to think gthey could get around the closure.
dkf747 Yeah, maybe about getting around the closure, but remember these are BLM logging roads and even covered with snow, if is obvious that they deteriorate as you travel further on them unless they are currently being used for logging.
Quote: “Hastings said the Kims spotted some warning signs that the one-lane road is often blocked by snowdrifts and decided to turn back. The snow was coming down so heavily that James Kim had to open the car door to see as he backed up. They turned right onto a spur road and drove 15 miles before they could go no farther.”
“At first it was only raining, she told Lee, but snow began falling as they got higher in the mountains. She said the road was pretty bad and at one point she and her husband had to get out and remove rocks from the road. They soon realized they weren’t going to make it over the mountain and decided to turn around and drive back to a lower elevation to get out of the snow. Around the Bear Camp Viewpoint high in the mountains, the Kims sidetracked onto a spur road in an attempt to turn around and traveled about 2 miles.”
This isn’t a direct quote from Kati, but did they actually drive 15 miles down the spur road “before they could go no farther” before they turned around “near the Viewpoint” or had they already driven the 15 miles on 34-8-36, were “near the viewpoint” and then “could go no farther”, backed up and took the spur road they were found on for 2 miles to another intersection…
REVELATION! Oh, maybe they went down that spur road to turn around (the 2 miles) and then came back to the intersection of 34-8-36 and the spur road they had turned around on. and this is where they were found.
If this is it and someone can confirm (also still would like a map link) I’ll go make the cookies.
Thanks for any help. This is what kept me awake last night.
I don’t recall reading that Kati mentioned a Viewpoint. But, looking at the area on Google Earth it is apparent that FS23 climbs up a ridge, and within a half mile it appears that you can see down both sides. From there up to the county line the road alternates between the ridge top and the south slope of the ridge.
Looking back east from the 23/BLM junction, BLM 34-8-36 skirts a north slope for about 2 miles before reaching a multiway junction (Serpentine Spring, Peavine Valley Rd?). From there east it drops down to Galice Ck.
So if I were at the 23/36 junction, heading N on 36 (into the maze) might appear to be the fastest way to lower altitudes. Couple that with the fact that it is wide and paved, and we might get some idea of why they took that route.
But in retrospect they should have stayed at the junction, even if it meant getting snowed in. Searchers made it to this point by Friday. On the other hand, it could have been a lot colder.
paulj
I was having a problem with all of the acronyms. What stumped me was this ICS thing that has popped up. RRR-78 and others have referred to it and it got the best of me. There is sooo much information about ICS that I have been away trying to understand it.
The way I see it now is that while Sara in involved with the search she is not the IC. It seems that she and JOCOSAR were in the field with other searchers. If I understand RRR-78, JOCOSAR and Sara have a good understanding about resources and where to get “stuff” in a hurry.
If the IC and staff are making decisions what roll does someone such as JOCOSAR and Sara have? If the IC is making all of the operational decisions then why is someone tasked with resources taking any heat?
Maybe RRR-78 will help me understand. It would seem to me that the IC group would be pleased to have JOCOSAR and Sara and their knowledge. I don’t see the need to crucify the cook because the coffee is cold.
Thanks Paul, again.
I think they were intent on getting out of the snow.
I quoted an article regarding Kati’s conversation with her friend Lee. It’s not a direct quote, but she must have mentioned the viewpoint as it is in several articles referenced as “in the area of Bear Camp Viewpoint”. Maybe she herself didn’t mention it. That would lead back to my thinking that they never took the left hand choice at the intersection of 23 and 34-8-36.
What map are you looking at?
It would be great if Joe could put that link at the top of the page for quick reference.
Herb
Great question. I also thought Saras role was different, as where I am from “emergency coordinator” means something different than what I have read here, since Jocosar spoke up.
13 – Bamadad – until Joe puts the Google Earth up, please click on the link in my name, and it will take you to links of what I traced and what RRR did for the Peavine Route as well.
I’m going to make a couple of posts here that you ought to find interesting. I apologize in advance for the length of both of them.
I am a former journalist. I did it for more than a decade before moving to more lucrative pursuits. Along the way, I worked for a metropolitan newspaper of the Portland Oregonian‘s size and reach, but not that specific publication. The reason I mention my background is to try to lend credibility to my reliance on the Associated Press story that I mentioned on the sixth comment page, post #1374.
A newspaper reporter is a researcher and a writer. The researcher gathers facts and opinions, and the writer arranges them in a readable way. People who haven’t done that job would be amazed at how challenging it is to write a readable account. When I started out as a reporter, I would almost literally pound my head in frustration over this. Reading the newspaper seems so easy, but just try writing those articles. It is a very constraining format, much more than people know. I would compare newspaper journalism to Kabuki theatre. It is highly stylized.
As someone who has written articles very much like the AP story, I am certain that readabiility is why it didn’t attribute every single element to Kati Kim or the police who interviewed her. I’ll repost the excerpt below with a couple paragraphs added. I will boldface the key parts and explain, on the basis of my extensive journalism background, how I think it should be properly read.
Authorities said that over a period of days, Kati Kim recalled more and more them details that allowed them to piece together her husband’s final days.
After visiting Seattle and Portland over the Thanksgiving holiday, the family headed back to California, planning to stay overnight at a luxury lodge along the Rogue River near Gold Beach on the southern Oregon coast.
After stopping for dinner in Roseburg on Nov. 25, they headed south on Interstate 5, intending to cross the Coast Range on Oregon Highway 42.
Kati Kim told searchers that when they realized they had missed the turnoff, they looked at a roadmap and found a direct route that went from the little town of Merlin over the mountains to Gold Beach. They did not consult their two laptop computers for an online map.
After leaving the freeway, the Kims drove past a gas station, pizza parlor and coffee shop. On the way they passed at least three yellow signs warning that Bear Camp Road to Agnes and Gold Beach might be blocked by snowdrifts. The road is paved but one lane, originally built to haul logs out of the Siskiyou National Forest.
Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.
Kati Kim told searchers they got stuck in snow once, managed to get turned around, then decided to stay put because they were low on gas. With almost no food or water, the family waited a week, running the car to keep warm at night, then burning the tires. When the small supply of baby food ran out, Kati Kim nursed her daughters.
Reporters don’t get their information by osmosis. They talk to people. In this case, I’m sure the AP reporter had at least one long conversation with authorities about what Kati Kim told them. The reporter had other information as well, from his prior interviews and stories.
When you write a newspaper story, journalistic convention says that you should use quotes sparingly, almost always for illustrative purposes except when the exact wording becomes the story itself. That’s because long quotes lose readers. Interviews are often choppy and meandering, and people don’t speak succinctly. This is especially true of police. Along the way, I did the police beat. Those conversations are full of jargon that has to be translated to plain English, so lengthy quotes of police would be gibberish.
Aside from the judicious use of quotes, readability calls for a logical flow. This means inserting contextual material to give meaning to individual facts. By the way, Readability does not imply manipulation or dishonesty. Quite the opposite. Readability is a good thing; it lends adds context, logic and structure, and therefore establishes accuracy and credibility.
Attribution is similar to quotation. All information in a newspaper story must be attributed, except when it is observably true or generally accepted as fact. But attribution cannot be allowed to kill readability, because if people don’t read your story then you’ve performed a useless task. Not only that, but a newspaper is a business, and if newspapers are not readable people won’t buy them. It’s a sad but true fact.
Therefore, as with quotations, you don’t attribute at each step of the way if it interrupts the narrative. Instead, attribution can be implied; at some level, a reporter can rely on his readership’s elementary logical skill. Believe me, editors and reporters can have some pretty colorful arguments over how much attribution to stick into a story.
The material about the number of warning signs didn’t need attribution because it’s observably true. The information about the gas station, pizza parlor and gas station didn’t have to come from her either, as long as she identified what route they took. In practical reality, I suspect that this stuff did come from her, and that police used it to nail down her approach to Bear Camp Road, via Galice Road through Merlin, Oregon.
The road being paved but one lane didn’t have to come from Kati Kim, because it’s observably true. Its history as a logging road didn’t have to come from her or the police either. It was obviously inserted as context, and we can figure that the AP reporter did a bit of research to get that tidbit. I assume it’s true.
But I very strongly believe that the material about the fork came from Kati Kim’s statements to authorities. The attribution is implied, and the meaning is clear. A reasonable reader would (and should) understand it to mean that the Kims saw the fourth warning sign and decided to take the logging road.
The attribution “told searchers” or “authorities said” is given three times in the excerpt. It’s not attached to each bit of information from authorities because it would impede the narrative flow. The attribution to what happened at the fork in the road is implied. This fits with standard journalistic convention.
Remember, the AP wrote a newspaper story not a police report. It’s an article designed to be read by the general public. As someone who has written a couple thousand stories published in newspapers, I think people who see it otherwise are misreading the AP’s report. I would add that the Associated Press is as close to Joe Friday as it gets. They’re not perfect, but let’s put it this way: If my mother told me something and the AP contradicted her, I’d tell my mother to check her facts.
I do agree with those who say that only Kati Kim can provide a definitive account. I would like to see such an interview, but we don’t have one. This leaves us with two choices: Give up trying to figure out what route they took and why, or carefully read what has been reported. I chose the AP article because the AP is generally solid, and because the article was based on interviews with her “over a period of days.”
18 – Orygun, my hunch, too, that either the Kim’s thought that they were on the correct route all along and/or possibly turning around on a spur but being confused (easy to do) and maybe thought they were turning out the way they came but were not? Just a guess, pure speculation.
There are typos and misspelling above (no spell check on this site), and one correctable error: I meant to write that if newspapers are NOT readable, people won’t buy them. Mea culpa.
24/Orygun: No map, I can’t find the viewpoint on a map, though it may be on one. I’ve been over BearCamp probably 30 times at least in conjunction with rafting the Rogue. For clarity, I should point out that I am ALWAYS going the opposite direction the Kims were – from Agness to Galice, so the forked intersection does not have the same impact on my memory as if I was going the other way.
27-Charles and 28-Maggie,
I have started the cookies for Mom, but will take some time later to look at all the material you have compiled.
Maggie, what a lot of work you have done.
I’m looking forward to going over all of the story and links again and maybe finding information I haven’t seen.
The news stories have caused part of the confusion as well as the mixing of direct quotes and reporting you all discussed yesterday.
How do you great contributors get anything done?
I did find that I can be sticky from the cookies and still keep one hand clean to grab the mouse and click refresh. But typing takes two hands so I’ll just keep quiet.
orygungirl-
my normal activities are suffering due to my posting and reading and some side research…after viewing maggies website and knowing she will be doing lots of scanning I am just in awe! Must be the dutch brothers, must get some of that.
Second posting as promised.
Last week I hooked up with Dee, who has posted here as “DH” and on another board as “Djdee.” I picked her because I agreed with her point of view about the Kim situation. I offered to carefully research and write a narrative of the thing from start to finish, to be posted on a different website with a moderated comments forum.
I have finished the narrative, which runs for almost 10,000 words. Dee is a website developer. We originally had planned to include this on her Oregon SAR site, but then mutually decided to set up a separate “Kim Tragedy” site.
That site will be up and running by tomorrow afternoon, and maybe sooner. It will contain the narrative, which I have written and which Dee has helped edit, along with a comment board. We will edit the comment board with an eye toward preventing the emotional exchanges seen here and elsewhere, while still having a useful, informative and productive discussion.
Dee will post here sometime today, and I might return later on as well, but we’ve agreed between the two of us to try to limit the frequency and the intensity of any comments here. There’s been too much heat, and too little light, shed on the incident.
30-Paul
My only trip over the whole road was from Gold Beach to Merlin, and we camped, so I don’t remember much at all about intersections. Also, didn’t notice all the spur roads.
When you raft the lower Rogue Wild and Scenic, do you take out at AGness? I did come back on that road from that raft trip in mid June once and there was considerable snow, but only in spots. It had snowed and hailed mercilessly on our second day on the river. In fact we begged and offered to pay lots of money to one of the lodges to take us in, but they were full. I don’t remember which lodge it was. By sunset the weather had changed, as it does, and we had some sun to dry out all our gear.
On the way back (they had shuttled three cars for us) we had huge and violent snow ball fights, blocking the road and bombarding the cars behind us (they were all friends, of course). It did get out of hand when the headlights of a new BMW got broken. Yes, there was restitution to pay.
Such a different experience I have had on that road, and I’m sure this is true for any of the posters who live here.
(33) LOL…thanks.
31 – 32 Orygun, thanks! I never knew how cool Google Maps was until that, and it was actually very interesting – not at all “work-like.” Please note that the path I traced does *not* address any going on or turning around on FS23, just taking that right at the FS23/BLM intersection, and that was mainly based on what I was reading and seeing on other maps throughout the media.
My life has become almost non-existent, but the one hand on the Dutch Bros pulls me through. Tonight I am being forced to go have a life for a few hours, but I’m only going kicking and screaming. So I treated myself to another latte today (which I never do). 😉
Paul…still unsure? 🙂
Anyway, you posted something yesterday I wanted to comment on and also Madeleine and am too lazy to look it back up (and actually trying to do something else here, like work!)
Madeleine,
Thanks for looking into an alternate arguement for what happened with the airspace. My bigest question with all that was simliar…since when does Spencer Kim control the airspace? I’m interested in learning more….as it comes in.
Paul. I’m with you. The poster in question yesterday was abusive in my opinion, more than just about anyone we have seen. Browbeating a point over and over, and ridiculing other posters as if they are too stupid to read and come to conclsions deserves calling out indeed. I was probably wrong to do it the way I did it, and feel even worse about insluting grod more than said poster….but I felt her posts were abusive and…said upwards of 20 times its enough. But, what is or is not abusive is sometimes a matter of personal opinion, I suppose.
Charles,
I started on the MT forum and ended up here when it became too personal. I appreciated the sparring between the posters, including Djdee and PacNWer as a lot of imformation was exchanged. It’s what got me addicted. I don’t mind differing opinions and try not to see statements written in the heat of the moment as “fact” or “not fact”. Sometimes it is just the omission of a word like probably or possibly that changes the context. I see this all as an exchange of ideas. A very rapid exchange at times and very stimulating. I am so glad that all these people care enough to keep the flame alive and look forward to yours and Dee’s efforts. I miss her on both forums. I am a newbie, but have spent many days just reading. It is the possibility that our access to these thousands of logging roads in the backcountry of Oregon and other similar NW states would be closed to the public that is my personal interest. And of course, the identification with and empathy for the Kim family.
(33) Have you ever been banned at another forum before? Just curious…
38 – Orygun, I do think that many of us agree that we would not want to see access to these roads closed to the public. There is a middle ground somewhere – somewhere along the lines of the half-gates or similar maybe so that people can use these roads and areas but will know what they are going into if they do before it’s too late.
27/33 – Mr. Wilson, an extremely thorough, enlightening & informative write-up on the newspaper industry, thank you. I think you make some extremely valid points. The key quote, IMHO from AP is: “They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.”…but it does not address the “why” of that decision, which is the one that troubles me most.
(37) OMG it is like The Return of Jason.
I would like to say for the record that I don’t believe anyone should be fired.
Acknowledging mistakes in a public arena can be a tricky thing. People can get personal about it on both sides – some taking it personally, some meaning it personally. But there are also times when acknowledging mistakes is just that; it is just an acknowledgement of mistakes.
The mistake(s) would be acknowledged no matter who made them.
It is the defensiveness against the acknowledgement of mistakes that makes people think it was a personal attack when no personal attack was meant.
I acknowledge mistakes I make often, and I do not feel like I am personally attacking myself.
Just because people are named, and it is acknowledged that mistakes may have been made, does not make it a personal attack.
Reasonable people always make reasonable mistakes. But that does not mean those mistakes should not be acknowledged and learned from, especially in critical and emergency situations.
42. I always wondered what he did for a living.
44 😉 (Ok, sorry. Done now.)
39/Glenn: I would be STUNNED if C.W. is Pac; Pac was never that eloquent nor that rationale. Disagree if you will, but if I were Wilson I would be insulted.
(33) Pac and DH glad you have found each other – I am sure your sparkling beams of truth will continue to shine for a long time with your moderation and editorial oversight.
DH glad you took my advice and decided to support Pac instead of playing both sides against the middle.
But Pac please no more visuals about you hooking up with DH – thanks.
Good luck with your new site – I mean it. 🙂
44/Mapper: I think you & Glenn are both wrong, not that it’s terribly important. I think Wilson’s posts have been respectful, appropriate and well mannered, in complete contrast to he to whom you compare him. Just because he takes a similar position doesn’t mean they are one and the same.
Paul
I disagree. Pac, while insluting, took great pains to capitalize the middle of his name and relyed heavily on formatting and grammar, wrote very well indeed. Just not very nice or reasonable.
Glenn I just laughed out loud in public, that was embarassing.
(46) Paul go back to page 1 of this forum and look at Charles’s posts and then Pac’s. You be the judge and in fact when Pac was trying to make his case early on he used the same format as Charles did here.
Both of them stop posting over at MT.
Charles links an article on MT…
Isn’t it ironic there is a reporter at the Washington Post named Charles Wilson but this Charles Wilson speaks about being a reporter in the past…
They are both from Seattle.
It just looks like a concerted effort to get their damaging message out without the scrutiny of others – in effect they are creating the Anti-Joe blog where here we really are trying to keep an open mind and the facts and exchanging ideas…whereas you will see that Pac and DH will moderate any message that detracts from their message.
And why would Charles state he needed to take a break before he escalated the language.
Come on Paul you really can’t fall for this…can you?
49 – Mapper, I admit, some latte came out my nose, and I made a bit of a scene…
Glenn, exactly the esculating language….we are sharing a brain right now. I am glad we will be sent to time out together if joe gets mad.
Oh my goodness – what an afternoon it appears more mystery and intrigue 🙂
(46) I could tell you a lot more…but let’s see what happens. I am sure it will be clear soon enough and I am positive Charles Wilson is just another name to hide behind – there are 67 of them in the Seattle area. 🙂
If joeducks were set up like digg.com I think it could be a very helpful real time decision making tool for SAR leaderships.
“Digg is a digital media democracy. As a user, you participate in determining all site content by discovering, selecting, sharing, and discussing the news. What can you do as a Digg user? Lots. Every person can digg (help promote), bury (help remove spam), and comment on stories… you can even Digg and bury comments you like or dislike.” http://www.digg.com
Just think if if if — after the Kims were reported missing John James, John Rachor, Eric Fuqua, Joe Duck and Spencer Kim had posted their thoughts and findings to a widely known digg like SAR specific web site. I betcha their stories would have popped to the “front page” and, hopefully, been followed by immediate, appropriate search action.
or… had the refusals by the hotel and restaurant to disclose vital credit card information been immediately publicized on ‘this’ web site, a few thousand emails to their managers from concerned joeduckers may have persuaded them to be more cooperative..
A *digg* like “JoeDuck Emergency-Central” web site as a key information source for SAR leaderships is the way to go, I think.
Would be a nice tribute to James too.
(33) Also Charlie or whomever you are nice to see you trying to launch your agenda off of all hard work Joe has done here.
It is not unlike the advertising attempt by DH earlier here on the forum – but she was advertising her services…which is really a gray area as far as blogs go not something you really should be doing without permission from the blog owner.
Charles– very professional. thanks. Have you or do you plan to visit the actual site near Bear Camp?
charles (regardless of who you might have been in a former screename)
I think having your own place to talk about this is a great idea, if the majority of the people here have a different focus, the arguments detract from the cause. I think the people here and the people whose opinions are entirley different…have differnt causes all together. You will probably do better with DH and at another site, simply to reduce arguements here. I mean that respectfully.
(55) Kip you are a very smart man indeed…please make sure you keep in touch with us as move forward – in fact we are planning to interface to over a dozen like services.
Very perceptive of you…digg and other tagging repositories are a great way to connect the dots out here.
Charles welcome and thanks for the journalism insights. I added the “not” you mentioned above and a few typos though that’s way too time consuming for me to do unless it’s a huge problem with understanding somebody’s comment.
Please feel free to post the links to the new site here when you and D.H. are done with it. Sorry you did not feel welcome enough here to keep the discussion in one place.
A theme here is that people keep popping in or writing in other places to “defend” their areas of expertise and I think that is fascinating. Charles says the journalism in the case is fine, OSP says OSP handled everything according to hoyle, SAR says SAR was handled correctly, etc.
So, in this defensive tradition here’s my defensive statement about blogging the Kim Story:
I’ve been *extremely* sparing in moderation here, contrary to some emails and accusations over at the Mail Tribune forum. I’m guiltier of allowing too much than censoring things, which has been at most a handful of comments and one commenter who was asked to stop. This out of about 6600 total comments.
The song remains the same here: ALL ideas about the story are welcome and NO abusive comments or insults are welcome.
23- Now keeping what I said in 43 in mind, after the “official” SAR effort began on Sunday Dec. 3, Sara R was officially in the position of Logistics Coordinator.
However, prior to that, during the “courtesy clearing of
roads,” she was the SAR coordinator who was supervising that effort under the Undersheriff.
Please correct me if I am wrong, or there is some more technical explanation of the role.
And please keep in mind that these issues would be important to me no matter who the specific individuals involved were.
Joe, I agree you have been incredibly tolerant, and was suprised by what I read over at MT…something about you being a communist. I know I would be quite strict compared to you!
32 and 36, Maggie and mapper
I have been ignoring my work and even let some phone calls go by. I shared with a friend that I have become obsessed!
Yikes, just as I was writing this, the friend stopped by and I didn’t hear her at the door. She called out, “Are you on there again?” so I talked to a real person for a while.
So nice to have a place to share and thanks to JoeDuck for providing it and to all of you for sharing.
61 – I’m just trying to sort out what responsibilities one has in either position that you mentioned (SAR Coordinator before narrowed down to Jo County or Logistics once it was – if I’m understanding correctly). As pointed out above by Tara (and similarly in previous posts by JoCoSAR), GR does show Logistics coordinator booking rooms and arranging for meals.
(61) Lisa I am confident that Sara R. was mis-understood with the statements in the press.
It could have been as simple as we cleared bear camp road and spent the day clearing the spur roads.
Based on what I have read about the amount of spur roads there is no way anyone with good knowledge of the area would think they cleared all the spur roads in the amount of time they had.
How close is this area to Curry County btw? Does anyone know? When did Curry County suspend their search
Kip – Digg style interface for SAR. That is a *really* interesting idea. Also easy to set up using Pligg which is an open source Digg clone that can be used to create sites like Digg.
However my initial thinking is that although the project should work to get missing person stories quickly Dugg to spread the word an enlist the minions of diggers in the search for people and cars, the blog and database portions of an SAR site would simply collect the basic information. Note that of the tens of thousands of annual missing person cases there are at most a handful that get Kim story attention.
Detective Mike and I were talking about this on the phone and he noted how unusual this case was in terms of media attention and national interest – this from somebody who handles thousands of cases.
65 – Glenn, I’m inclined to believe that there was some kind of miscommunication somehow, too – anyone who knew anything about the area would know that there are too many miles of spur roads. Something doesn’t match.
I may be naive, however I would like to throw out the possibility that there was no blame and identifying the ‘mistakes’ is really just a semantically different way of identifying a point of blame.
There is certainly a sequence of events that led to both an incredible rescue and the tragic loss of life. For many reasons that have been well discussed we are all drawn into the unfolding of this tragic ending. And many of us are searching for solutions that could have prevented the final outcome.
I’d just like to propose the possibility that everyone involved from the Kims to Police to the State to SAR to the reporters did the what they believed was best at that time given their own perspective, and experience.
Was it perfect – No, of course not! There are likely lots of areas for improvement – much of which has been focused on here. Great ideas have been discussed from Prevention including better maps, signage, and emergency preparedness; to much armchair hindsight opinions (and likely much more lively comments to come once the investigative reports are released).
So Joe, thanks Again for the blog space. It really is a special place!
55 – Kip, such a neat idea. I love Digg but had never thought of it as being so helpful in something like this. Very nice!
(67) I am focusing on the details also involving Curry County. I also believe that Sara R.’s role was diminished during this effort. Not sure how much and for how long and wonder how much of an impact it had on efficiency.
Also is it standard for the L&C to book hotel rooms? I know it is part of logistics just wondering what level that groundwork would be done at.
68 – Angela, I join you in the naive corner if it is naive, then, because that’s seemed a possibility to me all along as well.
The first rule of journalism is, “Never assume anything.” The second rule of journalism is, “If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out.”
My having cited the AP article favorably does not mean that I think “the journalism in this case is fine.” Far from it.
When our website in up and running you will see that, in fact, I am pretty critical of much of the reporting. I think the Associated Press story that I have cited was excellent. I have mixed views about the Portland Oregonian‘s coverage. I think the San Francisco Chronicle has been deficient. I think the national media had done a bad job.
60/Joe – Thank you for hosting and censoring with a light hand.
50/54: Glenn/Mapper et al: I DID go back and look at page one and I concede you’re comments on the formatting issue are spot-on. I can see I am in the minority in my belief…even hopeful Maggie seems to agree with you. IF you & Mapper are right, we all know it will take very little time at all for said party to revert to the tone and texture that made his previous taunts unbearable by all – he/she just can’t contain himself.
If I am right, as you say, it will be clear soon enough.
In EITHER event, Joe is right (and its his blog, so he’s right even if he’s not 🙂 : “ALL ideas about the story are welcome.” Let’s not make the man feel unwelcome right out of the gate.
Hi Maggie – did the postman bring you a package today??
74 – Hi Angela 🙂 Sadly, I won’t be home until after 6 or so (then out again), so I do not know yet… I’m using visualization to imagine mailman placing it in the box. If it comes, I might not be able to scan until tomorrow – well, unless I drink coffee when I finally get back home 😉
Charles–
Have you read most if not all the comments on this blog by Joe Duck? Have you found any useful ideas to prevent a similar future tragedy? Will you be publishing them?
73 – Hopeful and naive Maggie says maybe… pretty compelling reasons to suspect. I’ll wait – for that, for the mailman, and for the OSSA report.
Lisa and Glenn re: Curry County and Spur road issues:
I think the the Curry County line is under 5 miles from where the car was found. I don’t understand why Curry felt so confident they could not have made it over to Curry, but it may be because Bear Camp and spurs up there were impassable at the higher elevations.
Regarding the clearing of Bear Camp spur roads. I think there was a misunderstanding about the huge difference between these two statements.
“Bear Camp Road is cleared” vs “Bear Camp road and the hundreds of miles of spur roads branching off from it are cleared”.
In my opinion it is a mistake to think such misunderstandings lie at the heart of all this since the search in that area was NOT called off. However we see again that a *very simple* statewide central data depository would have allowed everybody (Carson Choppers, OSP, SAR, media) to determine which roads were clear and which needed to be searched. I do not think individual negligence led to the death of James Kim, it was a lack of quality communication that got him lost and a lack of quality communication that kept him from getting found in time.
(73) And all ideas are subject to be challenged by anyone here and they should be…that is exactly what is about forcing thought and re-thinking, etc.
Joe’s point about insults is very important and I know I am guilty of that but in most cases I believe it was in self-defense but it doesn’t make me any better than the original insult.
We all need to try to remain civil even though this is a very emotionally charged topic. We are nearing the finish line here and the conversations happening now and in the future will most likely shape a lot of stuff to come.
It is important everyone should be able to post as long as their posts are geniune and not intended just to insult and flare up battles with each other.
Being a devil’s advocate is one thing…but PacULizing something is a whole other issue.
For the record I want to see a photo of Paul when he is “stunned” 🙂
68-Angela. Very nicely stated.
Edit:
Charles–
Have you read most if not all the comments on this blog? Have you found any useful ideas to prevent a similar future tragedy? Will you be publishing them?
Not just Joe’s comments, but everyone’s.
68- Angela, I disagree heartily that identifying mistakes is really “just a semantically different way of identifying a point of blame.”
It is about identifying cause and effect. And what can be improved.
It’s people and their emotional issues that determine how they feel about ‘mistakes’.
We can’t learn unless we look at cause and effect relationships. And that includes acknowledging when they didn’t turn out too well.
Of course “everyone involved from the Kims to Police to the State to SAR to the reporters did the what they believed was best at that time given their own perspective, and experience,” that is what all of us are doing all of the time.
But in hindsight we categorize our actions in terms of ‘good, better, best, not best, etc.’ in order to learn.
65- Glenn, it was not just the press who made those statements, it was the State Police, it was in the GR.
77/Maggie: Hopeful Maggie will always be, naive – I don’t think so…worldly wise is more appropriate. 🙂
(78) I agree with your last statement – nicely put.
I think Curry County was pretty close and I think they suspended their search…so I am just trying to put into context how JoCo (Josephine County) could be thinking they should end their search as well.
And the point about Sara R.’s comment is that I think the media is not reporting her statement accurately at all – she will have to clear it up at some point. I just don’t see their version as anything she would say directly – I think her phrases were mis-interpreted.
Bamadad #76, I posted on this board way, way long ago in the first comment thread. I was seeking more clarity on the satellite photos of the route. I’ve looked through the various comment threads, and the ideas for preventing future tragedies.
Yes, the narrative has a section that incorporates what we thought were some of the best ideas we’ve seen. The real point of the narrative, and the new site, is what you’ll see in the beginning as its “Preliminary Recommendations” section.
We hope that people will give more recommendations through the comment board that we establish.
The narrative will be a dynamic document. We’ll made changes in response to new reports as they come out, and possibly in response to comments and criticisms of our views. I think the central narrative will be valuable in a number of ways, one of them being to reduce the tendency to re-hash what really doesn’t have to be re-hashed.
I’m eager for Dee to get the HTML coding finished so we can get up and running. But I’m about as far from a technogeek as they get, so I’ll just have to wait in line like everyone else. 🙂
(82) There are areas where she was quoted…in the press and the GR. I think both places do not tell the whole story. I can’t see someone coordinating an effort making such a gaff – it is the core of what they do and she has done it for years on hundreds if not thousands of SAR efforts.
Also keep in mind please the GR does nothing for us – it is a compilation of notes, extracts from other sources and not directly from any individual involved. I think the GR report really was a complete waste of time – from the standpoint of getting to the bottom of something. I am really disappointed in that report.
82 – Lisa, re: 65 – Since no one was interviewed for the GR and it doesn’t seem possible to have cleared all spurs, I’m inclined to think that it may have been miscommunication.
Lisa (82)
I really like your statement
But in hindsight we categorize our actions in terms of ‘good, better, best, not best, etc.’ /i
To me this is much less pointing the finger then “mistakes”. Mistakes indicates there was a right and wrong decision and I just haven’t seen evidence that was the case.
(Or I’m overly optimistice about human nature – back to naive) 🙂
79/Glenn: PacULizing ?? – I can’t find that in Merriam-Webster online. 🙂 I will defer further comment until we have better clarity on the issue.
72/C. Wilson: Please end the suspense: as you can see, quite a few souls here think you are an alias for our good friend PacMan. You could, of course, lie. I suspect if you are and remain well behaved Joe will not censore again. If I am right, and you are not, then you are owed an apology.
I like Joe’s summation at the end of 78 on the causes.
88 – oops – didn’t get the italics turned off. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the second and third paragraphs were quoting you Lisa – Sorry about that
87-
I am going to stop talking about these issues because right now I am getting sick of them.
But it is not only the alleged or misunderstood statement about the spur roads being cleared. It is also the statement about the search being concluded that is troubling to me. Because that means that it was being concluded even though all the spur roads, especially the most important and significant spur roads had not been searched.
I’m sorry I just feel a need to be objective, and not swayed by personal feelings.
I always wondered why Pac was so upset about james being called a hero. now he is starting another site? you think he would admit using the internet is a good idea?
Paul, I mean no disrespect to newcomers, ever. I will eat my sock if I am wrong (to quote maggie, my new favorite term)
But I dont expect to find conclusive evidence here, especially from the source.
(91) Lisa do you think I am being swayed by personal feelings?
I am being swayed by facts not misunderstandings in the press and/or mistakes in the GR.
We will have to see if my hunch is right.
I am pretty critical of much of the reporting. I think the Associated Press story that I have cited was excellent. I have mixed views about the Portland Oregonian’s coverage. I think the San Francisco Chronicle has been deficient. I think the national media had done a bad job.
Thanks for clearing that up Charles. I think a lot of people would basically agree with you about this.
92/Mapper & Glenn – take a look at page one again…don’t you find it the least bit odd that Charles Wilson would post respectfully and intelligently at Post 399 and that, then, in post 400, his supposed alter ego would go on a total rant and rave ???
I still think they are different people and feel the man deserves an apology. He has conducted himself very well. It’s not fair to sweep him into the same boat just because he shares some of the same views.
91 – Lisa, I am trying to be objective as well, and my personal feelings are that I still have not been able to make sense out of all of this because I don’t feel like I have enough pieces yet to put the whole puzzle together.
I’m sorry. Now I will stop talking about it.
88-
Thanks Angela. Sometimes ‘mistakes’ is just a faster, easier word than saying ‘not the best course of action’ etc.
I know it can be a word that people don’t like.
But I don’t mean it in a tremendously negative way, just a designational way.
I know I’m not blaming anyone, because that’s not how I feel. I don’t feel blame should go to anyone. Not to any group. No to any individual. I actually don’t believe in blame for blame’s sake, and I’ve said that before.
But cause and effect always interest me. And I think they are important to look at.
93- Where are you getting your facts from glenn?
68 “I’d just like to propose the possibility that everyone involved from the Kims to Police to the State to SAR to the reporters did the what they believed was best at that time given their own perspective, and experience” and 82 “that is what all of us are doing all of the time”
I disagree… How many of our actions are motivated by and initiated “because we feel like it” without thinking it through clearly first? It takes conscious effort to do ones best at all things all the time. Very rare. Our world would be a different and a much better place if what you said were true.
(99) Same as everybody else here but I am assuming the JoCoSAR and RRR have an inside track to some of the story and I will at this point put more weight into the information provided by them and Brian Anderson and Det. Mike W. than I will The Oregonian.
Mike W. has shown us so much is wrong with the reporting-how can it be wrong for a lot of stuff around his involvement but then be correct for others for which we have not heard from directly.
I think this played out differently than The Oregonian articles suggest and how the GR represents. I think the OSSA will shed a lot of light on this dark subject.
(95) Yeah Paul you are right. I am sorry Charles Wilson. Good luck with your site.
Paul 95 I agree with you Paul after rereading 399 & 400 on page one. In fact the lengthy cmt 400 by Pac, seems to have been accepted by most (not all) of the following 30 or so comments despite James’ death being so fresh and startling at that time. Later Pac flipped out.
Mr. Wilson’s reply above at 85 is good enough for me.
The more responsible info that is on the net, the better chance better funding and training of SAR and better preparation by motorists will ensue.
I have a root canal scheduled for Thursday, about the same time as Mr. Wilson’s website is published– so I hope for success from both ventures.
100- I think you have a point there, Kip. I think there are two basic levels of our best normal behavior. They could be designated as ‘average level effort’, and ‘above average
level effort’, (when we are really putting all our effort into trying our best.)
Now people may argue differently, but I think most would agree that we are not all operating at ‘above average level effort’ all the time. We do so when we feel we need to – for a test, or a crisis, a challenge – we ‘rise to the occasion.
It does not seem possible to operate at ‘above average level’ all the time, because it would be too tiring. Even with Dutch Bros., it couldn’t be pulled off!
Good afternoon! Happy discussing! 🙂
102/Glenn: Thank you – so you know, you did have me second guessing myself until I saw those adjacent posts then I knew I was onto something….but Mapper said in 92 she would eat her sock ?? 🙂
Paul…I said I was sorry. Not wrong. I’m not eating my sock. Just trying to control myself for the benefit of the board. I will eat my sock and take a picture if I am wrong and Charles can laugh at me and post the picture to his website. Surely that will make up for all this if I am wrong.
103- Good Luck with your root canal, Barnadad! 🙂
p.s. Does thermal imaging interest you at all in terms of being an effective tool that with techinical improvements and increased affordability could be used to help find people more quickly and easily in the future? I think it could be very promising…
Hello all – I can’t really post right now, but just stopped in to let you know I’ll be trying to jump a bit later to clear up a few things. And Glenn, I’ll try to address your general eyewitness questions, plus info re: report variances, if I can. Good evening to all.
oops…sorry…jump IN a bit later. still working now.
[62, 68, 100, 104] – Interesting that ‘doing ones best’ issue has come up here. If we actually do our best with what is at hand at the moment considering what we know etc. then nobody can later really find fault. Even if later viewed as a mistake what else could have been the outcome? Nothing else. I’d rather do my best and make a mistake rather than not doing something for fear I was going to be blamed for making a mistake. Doing my best entails so much. Sometimes doing nothing is doing my best. If I don’t have the skill or aptitude to do something then “my best” could say pass on it. I could go on and on this topic! I’ve had the pleasure of exchanging emails with 2 joeduck posters and both could verify that my ending salutation was “bestous” …a word I coined to do with doing my best, thinking of their best, etc. Seems easier and sometimes more acceptable to say than “love”. But in effect both are one, I think.
Reminding people of this place we have to post ideas rather than discuss the case:
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
I’d hoped people would review their own comments and post a summary of the suggestions here using “cut and paste”, but … not much luck with that 😦
Tara contacted me and ask that I view and comment here.
I want to see all the info from the OSSA report as that will be the most accurate. I don’t think I type well enough to give you all I have to comment about.
I do want to say that I beleive that most if not all of what the media reported is and was accurate.
Unquestionably there were a lot of judgement calls made that probably had significant bearing on the outcome of this event.
I do want to express that any comments I have made were in no way a critique of the volunteers of SAR.
I am saddened that there seems to be a position among some of the upper level people in SAR that the public just gets in the way in a search.
The truth is the public has many more eyes and ears to help narrow the possibilities.
It is also abvious that there are many “local folks” that know the roads much better than anyone in LE/SAR.
I was amazed throughout the early stages of this effort how often the roads and locations were misstated during press conferences.
I want to clarify one major point.
My brother and I never told Sara R. to “check those spur roads”. We specifically said we were only able to check the 34-8-36 road out about a mile on the sleds and we ran out of snow, and that we had seen tracks that were relatively fresh but had been snowed over. We told them the 34-8-36 needed to be checked fully as we COULDN’T check it on the sleds.
Sara R. and the Deputy with her said “they had it handled”
so we left.
I will likely have more comments after the OSSA report comes out.
My one other comment is that I feel it is very sad that James Kim died and that Kati and their daughters had to go through what must have been a living hell.
Having said that I beleive that they did have ample opportunities to turn around and head back to the highway, and chose to continue down into a very remote and obviously degrading road system in the middle of a storm and at night.
I guess sometimes you have to accept responsibility for your own decisions and no one can 100% protect you from yourself.
Hopefully everyone learns from their mistakes.
(106) Ditto…LOL, P.T. Barnum a man after my own heart!
John welcome to the blog and thanks so much for checking in and to Tara for inviting you over here!
Joe,
I have been meaning to post suggestions to the other place and have been avoiding it like homework! I do have intentions, and I believe I will.
Joe,
Thanks for the welcome.
I hope the OSSA report bring a lot of clarity to this ordeal. The early GR timeline leaves a lot to be desired as far as accuracy goes.
112 – John,
Welcome. I thought that was how it was about the road being cleared.
Do you think that the Kims ever reached or turned on FS23 at the intersection where the little sign that says “Coast” is, and where the hand painted words on the road are. Or did they take the right hand spur to 34-8-36 in the beginning?
I think you would know this and there has been some discussion.
Thank you for coming on to Joe Duck’s blog.
106/113: I’m totally lost at this point, am not sure what you’re both saying. Are you implying I’m a sucker? It sounds like you both are still in agreement that the two are one in the same…if so, I agree to disagree and leave it at that.
(112) Welcome John James…glad to hear your thoughts.
Yes Tara delivers yet again!
Yes, Welcome James, very interesting to hear your perspective too. Thanks.
Sorry! John James!
I beleive that at one point early after she was rescued Kati commented that they tried to take the fork to the left (the bc23 road) but only barely could get up it because of the snow. She said they backed down and then chose the right fork (the 34-8-36) and then headed to their stranding.
Just for clarity my odometer says they traveled about 24 miles from the intersection at Bear camp before getting stuck
I have animals to feed, I will check this later and reply to your thoughts.
John
Thank you for coming and sharing, Mr James. Welcome. 🙂
That is pretty much what was reported wasn’t it?
John,
I had never heard the part about the snow and not being able to get back up bc road…that makes so much sense.
Well, okay, I heard it, just not in those words, it just makes more sense about why they went down the logging road.
Message 122-John James
That is what I had originally thought from reports, then changed my mind with more info. It makes sense and explains her comment about backing down.
Do you mean 24 miles down the right hand road? Is this what you call the intersection in that post 122? And were they stranded prior to the turn off to Black Bar Lodge–your lodge, right? Was this mostly a down hill direction or mostly level?
Besides not turning back after backing down bc23, it confounds me that they would go 24 miles down the 34-8-36 road. If so and I haven’t misinterpreted what you said, I wonder if they thought they could get to the coast that way.
Off to my mom’s 93rd birthday party with cookies in hand.
John James, thanks for the clarifications. The Portland Oregonian article that quoted you telling Sarah Rubrecht to have the road cleared figured prominently in my analysis of events. I hope that, once we have our website up and running (see my comment #33 here), that you will read it and offer your thoughts. My top priority is to have an accurate view of the events themselves.
I struggled with whether the Kims backed down Bear Camp Road and then took the spur, or whether they paused at the fork, saw the fourth snow warning, took the spur and got stuck somewhere along the spur. Either way, they’d have taken the logging road by conscious decision rather than because of inaccurate signs.
As I reviewed the media accounts, I concluded that they didn’t back down Bear Camp Road but rather down the spur after they got stuck. It’s a little unclear to me, but my best guess for the moment is that they went farther down the spur than where they ended up, ran into snow and then backed down to where they parked.
What’s your reading of that, and what is the basis for your reading of it?
Finally, when you read the narrative you will see that it criticizes both the Kims and Sarah Rubrecht. It does not attempt to say who was more negligent, only that both parties were. It also singles out a number of participants for praise, among them being the SAR volunteers and yourself for trying hard to get that road searched.
We have various categories of judgments. For whatever it’s worth, you wound up in our highest one, “admirable.” I’d definitely want you as my neighbor, that’s for damn sure. Happy trails, friend.
112- Thank you so much John James! That helps clear up those questions very well!
And thank you so much Tara, for inviting him here! 🙂
It really helps to have all sides of the story!
Oops I need to rewrite something:
As I reviewed the media accounts, I concluded that they didn’t back down Bear Camp Road after being stuck there. It’s a little unclear to me, but my best guess for the moment is that they went farther down the spur than where they ended up, ran into snow and then backed down to where they parked.
Okay, I’m going to re-write it this way:
John James, thanks for the clarifications. The Portland Oregonian article that quoted you telling Sarah Rubrecht to have the road cleared figured prominently in my analysis of events. I hope that, once we have our website up and running (see my comment #33 here), that you will read it and offer your thoughts. My top priority is to have an accurate view of the events themselves.
I struggled with whether the Kims backed down Bear Camp Road and then took the spur, or whether they paused at the fork, saw the fourth snow warning, took the spur and got stuck somewhere along the spur. Either way, they’d have taken the logging road by conscious decision rather than because of inaccurate signs.
As I reviewed the media accounts, I concluded that they took the logging road on purpose; went farther down the spur than where they ended up; ran into snow; then backed down to where they parked.
What’s your reading of that, and what is the basis for your reading of it?
Finally, when you read the narrative you will see that it criticizes both the Kims and Sarah Rubrecht. It does not attempt to say who was more negligent, only that both parties were. It also singles out a number of participants for praise, among them being the SAR volunteers and yourself for trying hard to get that road searched.
We have various categories of judgments. For whatever it’s worth, you wound up in our highest one, “admirable.” I’d definitely want you as my neighbor, that’s for damn sure. Happy trails, friend.
I assume that the driver, although in a four wheel drive vehicle, was not really all that familiar with rugged terrain and extreme conditions. He might not have been skilled in negotiating the correct route at that critical intersection. Had he known that it was ‘coastal route’ versus ‘maze of nowhere roads untravelled by anyone’ he would have probably stopped there at the intersection or atleast near it. He might have been able to sweep away some snow from the roadway or put some debris from the car onto the road. He didn’t attempt these extreme measures because he had no way of knowing that this was a critical juncture.
Signage? Maps? I don’t know if anything would have helped.
Its real difficult to see the results of all these separate items that went wrong. One wrong turn, one unwise yielding to the desperate temptation to press onward, one junk food item not grabbed enroute, one skimpy blanket left behind …and things go seriously wrong. Stopping at the intersection would have been sufficient to have saved their lives. The traffic would have been sparse, perhaps non-existent, but the search would have been on that road.
I wonder most about the CAP… Civil Air Patrol. They were never used and I think they were never contacted because they use ‘fixed wing aircraft’ that fly as opposed to ‘rotary wing aircraft’ that “beat the air into submission”. Oh, okay… no more aviation related jokes!!
Given the location where the vehicle actually was located and also considering the ‘fateful intersection’… I think fixed wing aircraft would have been useful despite SAR types saying they are not so good in dense foliage.
[131] – more negligent is a charged phrase. It implies inattention to one’s business. I don’t buy that. Not sufficient evidence at this point …mainly conjecture.
😀 ATTENTION NEW PEOPLE 😀
Problems searching the site? Do this:
1) Click on the Kim Story link at top of *every* page at the blog.
2) Click to the page or item you want.
3) Use “Control F” or other browser search to look for the words or commenter you want. Hit next to cycle through comments or words.
[123]-Hello John James… Can you tell us if any government agency has asked to or has interviewed you in connection with the current SAR investigations?
I wanted to quote one of Kati’s recent posts because I think it is very telling of some of what she and Penelope are going through, and I thought some of the language she used was very interesting. [But remember it is a review of a store.] I think that while this is not the time and place for her to tell her whole story, she can still be included for those interested:
“Not long ago, I noticed a change of signage – cuter, oranger, and much more inviting. The window displays have also improved. I heard whisperings of a change of ownership, but hadn’t wandered in to check it out for myself. Recently my daughter’s treasured pink umbrella was damaged beyond repair. Since I’m without vehicle, I’ve been dreading rainy morning walks to pre-school.”
“The sales lady (new owner?) was so sweet and full of energy I wanted to take her home and call her “grandma.”
The highlight of my trip was when my daughter chose the green umbrella over the lavender or pink. She said it was because green is my favorite color, and she wanted to make me happy. Then she asked “Mom, are you sad that you don’t have a husband anymore?.” When I told her I was, she said “Don’t worry, I’ll take care of you now.”
“We’ll be back soon. Plus, I have _tons_ of used baby clothes, and it looks like I won’t be having another one anytime soon!”
It just doesn’t make any sense that they got on the logging roads (BLM maze) on purpose. If they went up 23 at first, but changed their mind, I can’t think of a reason they would opt to go back to the fork and take the BLM side as opposed to just giving up and heading back the way they came.
Also, if they were on the BLM side on purpose, I can’t think of any reason they would continue 24 miles on it.
John James has been quoted as saying he has had to redirect countless people who have gone the wrong way at the fork. Why would the Kims be any different? I know what Kati said about backing down and going the other way, but I think she’s talking about in the maze, not at the fork.
Anyway, I don’t suppose it really matters.
John James, when you say you checked a mile on the sleds, you mean you checked a miles from *where*? From the fork at 23? From your lodge access road? Somewhere else?
Also, SAR personnel have posted on here that there were tracks *everywhere* on those logging roads. I take it you disagree with that?
Thanks.
what’d i miss?
Charles Wilson, #27, I totally disagree with you on what parts of that story are from Kati and which parts are narrative from other sources. And I’m a pretty reasonable reader.
Rodney,
I also think that is possible (just went the wrong way as it would be very easy to do, having seen the intersection). I dont completley understand what happened there….but can kinda understand the logic of going down the logging road even if they knew it was a logging road. I guess its true i havn’t paid as much attention to this part and have just taken the reports as they are and havn’t read much into it, as it is the bigger picture I focus on.
Welcome back, by the way! been awhile since I saw your name.
Lisa.
Wow, thanks for posting that. Poor Penelope, its terrible to feel that sense of responsibility when you know one of your parents is unhappy. I’m amazed Kati is even able to do the things she is doing. I’d probably be too depressed to move.
hey mapper, Ill join you eating that sock if youre wrong…….
Tara,
at least I will be in good company if that day ever comes!
Ill bring my dutch bros…
138- Rodney G
I know you asked those questions of John James, and those are excellent questions!
I think when he says they checked a mile on the sleds, he means from the fork. But I hope he’ll come back to answer that himself!
139- tara, is that an understatement…?/!
[you don’t have to answer that! :)]
137 – The only reason that makes sense to me is the recent thought I posted. The warning signs say “Bear Camp FS23 May be closed…” but there are no signs, as far as I know, about the spurs being closed. Perhaps they thought they would be a way around the closure. No other explanation makes sense. The only other possible reason I can think of is that they thought they were on the right road when they went to the right at the fork. However, some people seem to be saying that that is wrong.
For those interested, poster “JoCoSAR” mades statements about many tracks the logging roads on page 2 #875 and page 3 #66. She also posted her account of the converstation between Sara and John James on page 2 #887.
Finally, and semi-unrelated, she posted on page 2 #829 that the cell phone map only narrowed the search to a 26 mile wedge. It’s my understanding that there was line-of-sight information on the map that narrowed it much more than the full wedge, right?
(135)Not a blogger so bear with me. Answering to Kip, I definitely spent quite a bit of time with two Detectives who were interviewing for the upcoming OSSA report.
I do also want to say that the intersection is confusing and loads of people annually make the mistake and go the wrong way.
The thing that shocked me was how far they went. I don’t know of anyone who has driven that far.
I am not kidding you, this road steadily degrades to the point that the brush is slapping the middle of your windshield for a long way before the Kims decided to stop.
When I drove the CNN crew out to the location it blew me away that they continued on that road in that weather.
I do also feel that the true Hero in that whole event was Katy Kim, how amazing is that lady to feed her children from her own body to save their live.
I want her for my Mother.
She is awesome!!
141- [Yes, Mapper, I know. I did the same kinds of things for my mom and the rest of my family. I can remember trying to cheer everyone up and comfort my mom starting around age three.]
John James, so nice of you to share your info. Once you take the right (incorrect) fork into the BLM roads, is it easy to stay on 34-8-36? From the maps (online), which is all I have, it looks like you’d have to guess correctly on anywhere from 3 to 8 different “forks” on the BLM roads themselves just to stay on 34-8-36. Are there signs indicating that road number? I’m just amazed at how far they travelled on that road as well. I mean, we don’t know that they stayed on 34-8-36 to the final spot of the car, but it looks like they might have. Thanks again.
(148) Hi John, I didn’t realize you were the one that took the CNN crew out there. How did that come about? Did CNN call you or did you call them?
I am glad you did it…the coverage was interesting.
148- Yes, I think Kati did an amazing and remarkable job!
I remember she stated that one of the reasons James felt he had to leave the car and try to get help Saturday was that both of the children were crying from hunger.
It will be very interesting when we get to hear her side of the story and why they went so far down the road. My guess is they couldn’t believe how bad it was/thought that they didn’t really have enough gas to backtrack, and kept hoping they’d get to a better place ahead, even just to stop and wait for help.
Just a thought…is it possible they thought the road might lead to a lodge? I am just building on lisa’s thought that maybe they might find something ahead
as, this is common in my part of the world…if you just keep going you will run into something soon.
[148]..Thanks John James very much for responding. Another question I’ll try. You know the Windy Creek drainage well I’m sure. Would you care to speculate just how far James traveled down the depression from the road that 1st day, Saturday, before night time fell? I’d think it would have been impossible for him to make headway in that morass in the dark, wouldn’t you agree?
Kip, (#133), when the website is up and running you will see that I carefully define terms. I am aware of the high emotion here caused, in part, by the use of charged terminology. One thing I did was go to a dictionary, and in the narrative (which of course no one here has read yet) try very hard to use words literally rather than figuratively.
From Merriam-Webster’s On-Line Dictionary:
Negligent: Failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances.
At this juncture, based on everything I have read and the considerable thought I put into it, both Dee and me think the Kims and Sarah Rubrecht were negligent.
I used other terms, too: Flawed, Irrelevant, Admirable, Praiseworthy, Uncertain. Out of a spirit of accommodation, equanimity and a touch of mercy, I stayed away from terms like Reckless, Heroic, Crazy, Monstrous and Psychopathic. You give a little, you get a little 🙂
You will see that some people fell into both positive and negative categories. This reflects the human reality that people are often a very mixed bag. We thought some aspects of the Kims behavior were negligent, and other aspects were admirable. We thought some aspects of Rubrecht’s behavior were negligent, and some aspects were praiseworthy.
I’m whipping Dee hard to get that site up and running, and she working her fingers to the quick — just like I did last weekend, I keep reminding her. 🙂
Rodney G (#140), then we’ll just have to disagree. You say to-MAY-to, I say to-MAH-to, but let’s not call the whole thing off, alright? 🙂
By the way, admirable is not faint praise. Merriam Webster’s On-Line Dictionary:
Admirable: Deserving the highest esteem
I want to respond to the comment someone referred to by JOCOSAR i think 886.
JOCOSAR claims I changed my story a bunch of times.
JOCOSAR is a liar.
I will testify under oath as to my converstion with the deputy and Sara R.
My brother was there also when we talked to them.
We will take a polygraph.
I wonder if Sara R. would do the same.
Her story has changed repeatedly.
I have tried to be diplomatic in my comments about her, I had hoped that maybe she just misunderstood that we told her we only checked the road a mile out because we ran out of snow.
There seems only to be two possible explanations for her story, either she misunderstood or she is covering her rearend for not checking the road.
My brother and I have been ripped in the local Letters to the Editor in the Courier by her Father. I haven’t responded because there is no point.
#155 Charles, yep, no problem. Just sayin’ that reasonable people can read it differently. And I’m only reading it for clues about the route taken. I have no stake, no opinion, and no interest whatsoever as far as defending or questioning anyone involved. Truly.
148 “I do also feel that the true Hero in that whole event was Katy Kim, how amazing is that lady to feed her children from her own body to save their live.
I want her for my Mother.
She is awesome!!”
Thanks for your comment, I don’t want to take anything from James; but it is true, Kati is an awesome mother. I think it will be most apparent when she finally does tell the story. Be sure to have a box of Kleenex tissue nearby, you’ll need it.
(155) Could you please give us your analysis of the word hero and its definition in Websters?
Do you think James or Kati Kim relate at all to the definition?
(148) I don’t know that anyone is sure exactly where he entered the drainage. I know the OPS maps that they made were very innacurate on many occasions.
I suspect he only got half way down the first day he entered it (maybe saturday) and the rest of the way sunday.
No o0ne will ever know.
It is a steep harsh brushy gorge and tough in good conditions
142/tara/mapper – You’re going to need a stockpot to make stew if people keep joining up. 🙂 Still confused about what you were saying at 106.
John James – would really love to hear answer to the 2nd part of 138. Also, could you comment on how quickly, in terms of miles, the BLM fork road degrades ?…in other words, in your opinion, would they have known fairly quickly they were on something a far cry from a route to the coast ?
I returned to work to take one of my colleagues told me that some folks in this part of New Mexico and nearby Colorado where roads have recently and frequently been closed to due to bad weather and deep snow have taken to packing emergency precautionary supplies and are now calling them KIM KITS.
@John James… John, after meeting up with Sara and the deputy, on Friday Dec 1st I think it was, did they or any official connected with the SAR effort subsequently contact you looking for advice, information, suggestions, …?
I apprecate the opportunity to ask you these questions but if you cannot or don’t answer I accept that 100%.
In answer to (138) I only saw one set of car not ruck sized tracks that went out the 34-8-36. They had been snowed over but were very obvious. It had snowed prior to the Kims going out the 34-8-36 and it snowed for two days after the stopped out there. The only other tracks that JoCo sar would have seen were those and my sleds for 1 mile That is if they even went out there the day I saw them up on the hill
163 Kati’s dad – good to see you again.
How does Kati feel, if at all, about the media firestorm that descended upon this story? Have you told her how much opinion it has generated here at JD and what strong emotions it has evoked in people? I understand if it hasn’t come up.
165 should have said TRUCK sized tracks
Glenn, you will see when you read the narrative that I made quite an effort to avoid extremes of any sort. From Merriam Webster’s On-Line Dictionary.
heroic: supremely noble or self-sacrificing
Different people will see things differently of course, but we didn’t see any heroic people in those events. On the plus side, the highest we went was admirable, again in the literal sense of the term.
I will add that many of these words have multiple definitions. I have arrogated to myself the sovereign right to define terms as I see fit when I am writing something. My only obligation is to give the definitions in hopes of avoiding misunderstandings. 🙂
John James, I don’t know if you overlooked my post 131, maybe because I garbled it just before that, but I’d be interested in your response. I’m not doubting your account of anything. Quite the opposite, believe me. I’m really interested in your take on the questions, because I want to get it right.
Katis Dad
I am sorry that I wasn’t able to follow my instincts and go home and get my other truck that can go further in the snow.
We had my brothers truck and the sled trailer and couldn’t take it out the road.
Every single day I regret not pursuing this myself. I should never have let someone else make me feel that I didn’t have a right to be searching for them.
Your daughter is truly the epitomy of selflessness and I applaud her heroism.
Please know that I have huge regrets that i know I could have saved James’ life had I only pursued my hunch
Paul, I have many thoughts on the subject as you might guess. I just dont want to discuss them here. I do not think your a sucker.
I will eat my sock if I am wrong. If charles is not pac, I will eat Taras sock if pac and charles are not in kahoots.
mapper, Ill soak it in Dutch Bros, just in case… see, Im open minded!
KIP 164
No one ever contacted myself or my brother. They repeated to us at least three times the day I saw them that “they had it Handled”
(168) Charles,
I understand how you want soverign rights to changes thing that meet your agenda. In any event I wasn’t expecting you to take the right to change the actual word I was asking about. The word I asked about is Hero. Here is the definition for Hero from Webster.com.
Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: ‘hir-(“)O
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hErOs
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work
b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL
So I will ask you again. Do either James or Kati Kim fit any of the above definitions of the word. Of course with your sovereign rights to pick what you want you just might be tempted to choose definition 1a, 1b or even 3 but let’s see how common sense applies to your selection of particular definition.
Forgive me for pushing the point. I just would like some clarity on it. Thanks.
(173) John did you miss my question in (151)?
163- That’s great, Kati’s Dad.
Last night I asked Det. Mike W if he thought it might be
possible to having something like a ‘Kim Act’ that would require all cell phone and credit card contracts to require emergency contact information. Unfortunately, he didn’t think that exact legislation would be likely. Hopefully maybe some other related legislation will. But we want all the good that possibly can, to come out of this…
164- Good question Kip. I think the issue of finding how SAR and locals who really know the area can work together with more efficiency and respect, is so important.
157- I think it’s great that you are offering to take a lie detector test, John. I believed in your account all along.
I get overwhelmed with the way these posts come across so please forgive my lack of skill at blogging.
I will try to post a Google Earth map I put together that show key waypoints. You would be shocked at the distances as most the maps you have seen in the media have been wrong
John do you own the Black Bar Lodge? If so, I owe you an apology I called your lodge the Black Bear Lodge like 50 times in the beginning – someone here – I think it was Paul was kind enough to point it out to me. Sorry about that.
Wouldn’t shock me John James 🙂
Rodney G (#158), you’ve illustrated the hazard of implied attribution. What’s logical to one person might be so to another person. Reporters constantly face this balancing act. I think the AP leans quite a bit toward step-by-step attribution, but there’s no arguing that in the article I cited the attribution is implied.
The only thing that would clear up the issue, and several others surrounding the Kims’ actions on the night of Nov. 25-26, is a detailed interview with her by a careful, informed reporter.
I remember conducting one such interview with the wife of a guy who had been killed in the collapse of the Hyatt hotel in Kansas City back in the early 1980s. Reached her on the phone in her hospital bed and had a respectful but thorough conversation that went through all the details including the gory ones. I was nervous as a cat, but it turned out well and I got a very nice letter from her later about how much she appreciated being able to tell her story.
If Kati Kim gives an interview, I hope she gives it to someone who is fully informed of the situation and will politely ask questions that will clear up the ambiguities that remain in the accounts thus far. My narrative lists several of those ambiguities, as well as questions for other participants in the events.
171 – Good enough, other more compelling topics at hand & we agree about far more than we disagree anyway. I will offer that Tara, being the self-sufficient independent type, will likely insist on downing the sock herself. 🙂
(177) John maybe you can answer a question I have been struggling with for a while…how close is the area where the Kim’s were found to Curry County? I have found a discrepancy in one of the timelines that I am trying to resolve. Thanks for your local knowledge it is a big help.
glenn, Yes I took the CNN crew out there to do the story for CNN Presents.
It aired on the Paula Zahn show and Anderson Cooper. If you saw it I am the the OKIE looking guy not the Movie star looking guy.
3 I have driven Bear Camp from GP to the coast about 30 times. I’ve almost taken that “spur” road about 27 of them. It’s the instictive way to go…the nature flow of the roads. Only the painted COAST arrow lets you know what way to go which shoots off to the left and up a fairly steep hill. The right way doesn’t seem right.
Also, I have daughter who yells the whole time on that road. She even refuses to call it “bear camp” –she calls it “death trap” road. I’ve also seen personally 3 cars go off the edge–in which case it is virtually impossible to spot the car.
Google Earth is great…but unless you’ve been there you won’t have a clear picture of the situation–which is dire.
There are also many other spurs and spurs of spurs that someone could easily get lost on. Had James and Kati known the extent of the situation they surely would not have tried that road. BUT, it IS deceptive when looking on many maps and the warnings are not very deterring, but detouring rather.
(183) John thanks for the clarification. If you would so induldge me, did you call them to come out? How did you know who to contact? I have always wondered that. Thanks.
John, dont put yourself down for not realizing what would happen. You did the right thing.
I have also learned the hard way, to follow my hunches (though they are not even always right, so its still hard to know when to follow them for sure). You did what is right and had no way of knowing Sara would misunderstand, or disregard your words.
The 34-8-36 road is within a mile of the Jos. county Curry county line. In fact the road to the immediate west is called county line road.
(184) Thanks for the information my independent albeit non-scientific study with the photographs confirms your real world experience.
thanks for the comments mapper. I feel like crap on a daily basis thinking I had the chance to save a mans life and couldn’t
178/Glenn – easy mistake to make, there are certainly plenty of black bear in that canyon, as John J would 2nd. The lodge is named for the nearby rapid and falls, Upper Black Bar and Lower Black Bar (falls).
(187) Wow, last I heard it was about 5 miles away. Within a mile now I am really puzzled why Curry County suspended their search. I am still trying to piece together that part of the decision process. Thanks for the input James.
I was made aware of the kims by a blogger on here that is a friend rogueriverat78. She e-mailed me about them being missing. When I contacted JOCO sheriffs on Dec.1st it was just a hunch nothing solid
glenn, when you read the narrative you will see that my labels are adjectives and not nouns. So the word “heroic” would be the right word for me to define in the context of the narrative. If you choose to regard any of the participants as a hero, or their actions as heroic, it’s your prerogative to do so.
170- John James, that is so beautiful. I am just someone who was also deeply touched by this story. And what you said just adds to it. Thank you so much.
166 Paul, Kati is innundated with media contacts wanting her to give her story. Just today a CNN representative called me today trying to get through to her. They also are trying to get through to Spencer Kim especially after his very recent Washington Post letter.
For now Kati as far as I can tell is mostly preoccupied with caring for her girls, see post 136. I had the great privilege of taking on a Fatherly role for nearly the whole month of December. Child Care providers usually get little recognition, but is a demanding chore with young kids.
Kati is also dealing with the energy sapping agony of the normal grief process. I have only to look at my wife Sandy every day as a barometer of the toll that takes. Sandy loved James very much. He always respectfully addressed her as MOM. His death has been hard on Sandy. She told me one day shortly after he was found, “How can not love the man who loved my daughter so much.” James was overflowing with noble qualities.
no apologizes about the name of the lodge. You are not the first to mis state it and I am sure not the last. It would be easier to rename it LOL
(193) Charles sorry you didn’t answer it but I understand why you wouldn’t. My question wasn’t in regard to your narrative which I am eager to read but more toward the technicality of a word definition and how you perceive the use of such.
[155]…Charles Wilson — Before I posted comment [133] I looked up ‘negligent’ in Merriam-Websters: “negligent implies inattention to one’s duty or business”. I see absolutely no evidence indicating Sara or James were inattentive to their ‘duties’. Mistakes were made, possibly. But not deliberate neglect, that’s a powerful ugly charge imo that in NO way fits either character in question.
So Paul, Maggie and I are willing to eat socks if we are wrong. What are you going to do if you are wrong? 🙂
(196) John you are the owner right? I know there is another John involved in this saga as well…just trying to keep them straight. Thanks.
John you probably didn’t realize what you got yourself into by coming here. 🙂 You are someone a lot of us have wanted to speak to for some time. Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to keep thing straight. Appreciate your help and answers.
Tara,
Maggie is still on the fence, but when she makes up her mind, I would be she would be willing to eat her own sock too.
glenn,
Yes the lodge is mine. The other John is definitely an amazing guy. He took his own personal helicopter burning his own fuel and pursued his hunch and ultimately is the one who found Kati and the girls. His name is John Rachor
202 sorry, I meant mapper… 🙂
glenn,
We can blame Tara for my presence, Just kidding.
I have tried to keep it low key out of respect for the Kims.
202. sorry I would be willing to *bet* …
137 & others – Also, if they were on the BLM side on purpose, I can’t think of any reason they would continue 24 miles on it.
I wasn’t there, have no idea if it was raining or snowing at the point they drove down the BLM road after backing down BC, or how far into the BLM road it begins to degrade to a really rough road, but I wonder if they drove that far because the road degraded to a road so narrow they felt they couldn’t safely do a k-turn or back up to the intersection, and kept going hoping for a spot to turn around which didn’t come until they had gone as far as where the car was found. Any locals think this is a possibility?
170 Thanks for your post, most kind of you to say what you did.
Gayle, You may be right about the turning around aspect. There are wider spots evry 1/4 mile or so but if it was foggy who knows
(205) Im sneaking off to go change my email address…. 🙂
192- I would like to know HOW I notified you when I DON’T EVEN HAVE YOUR EMAIL!~!!!!
199- Am more confident than ever they are not one-in-the-same, but socks seem kinda extreme, esp mine. I will write a humorous, self-skewering confessional parody song. Maggie can attest to my abilities to comply.
Katis Dad,
I would love to express verbally to you the emotion I felt when I stood at the site where your family spent nine days. I am a father of an 8 year old daughter and I literally cried thinking of what Kati and the girls went through out there.
That was the most emotional moment of my life second only maybe to my daughters birth
Hi there RRR! Welcome back. What’s new ? Any word on when the report might be released ?
(205) John that is funny…Tara something. Now my next question is a doozie and I mean to ask it very respectively. I am following a set of questions that I have been compiling for all the people in this saga that I get chance to ask.
In any event, here is the question.
Did you receive any compensation, expenses or financial benefit from CNN or any other media organization?
If you didn’t I would like a definite No please. I think this point is very important. Thanks for taking the question.
Katis dad.
I would love to meet your family some day and tell them face to face I am sorry I couldn’t help more.
sorry Rogueriverrat78, I have a gal that has worked for me for 10 years at Black Bar that has the same e-mail but it is with a different ISP apparently. Sorry for the confusion
John James, the person working on the other website tells me she’s getting close to being able to put it up, but in the meantime I will tell you that we identified Bob Rachor as among the “admirable” people in this. He saved three lives. Doesn’t get much better than that.
Hhhmm what a conscience….
Glenn,
I did bill CNN for guiding them out there and using my vehicle. I would have done it for free but they are a huge company and can afford it.
I decided to donate the $550.00 to donate the money to the JO CO SAR even before I took them out there.
When I started to hear Sara R comments about me I rethought my position and contacted the local BLM road engineer Jim Roper and offered instead to donate the money towards some better signage at the imfamous intersection of the BC23 and the 34-8-36. I have also talked to several of my outfitters and local guides and they want to donate also.
We hope this can be done in the name of James Kim
Glenn,
I also haven’t received a check yet but they sent me paperwork
(220) John thank you for you answer. Did you end up donating the money?
Paul. I am looking forward to your song and dance.
I will say my best friend is a contentious reporter. I would invite her here as I believe she would take issue with many of charles journalistic viewpoints (no matter who he is or was here before). But, she has no stake in this so probably wouldn’t care, and has other things to do.
I admire her very much as a writer and we usually see eye to eye about integrity. heck maybe I’ll send her an email and tell her to look, but she would probably find it most funny and interesting to make fun of my geography major like hobbies.
but anyway, paul, yes we usually do agree, so whats this one little thing!?!! no big deal!
192 & 211 was made aware of the kims by a blogger on here that is a friend rogueriverat78. She e-mailed me about them being missing.
The way I read this was that a friend of RR78 contacted Mr James.
218…we identified Bob Rachor
Isn’t his name John Rachor? My bad if I am wrong.
Again sorry but apparently the RRR78 on here is not my friend. Rogueriverrat78 at a differnt ISP notified me.
sorry for the coincidence
His name Is JOHN Rachor
John,
I must say, that seems an excellent way to donate some money. I sure do hope that they use it that way! 🙂
The BLM will be looking at this in Feb-Mar. I hope it will be a worthwhile effort and maybe save some other travelers
Glenn #215, that’s a funny question. The reason it’s funny to me is because when I was a print reporter I saw people do unbelievably crazy things to get themselves on television. I still remember the day when I was interviewing some guys indoors. They were in short-sleeved shirts (at the days of setting the thermostat at 74 degrees!) on a day when it was 15 degrees below zero without the wind chill outside.
Well, the TV crews came in and said the light inside wasn’t good enough and could they come outside and talk? Took ’em about 20 seconds to get out there. They didn’t even put their jackets on. It was like a crackhead reaching for another hit off the pipe. Later on in my career I saw it all the time.
So I’d be pretty surprised if John got paid by CNN. The TV guys don’t have to pay ordinary people. Celebrities will be paid. I could imagine Kati Kim being offered money for her story, but not John James.
John, I guess I’d better be crystal clear on this one. I am in no way, shape or form even beginning to think of starting to suggest that you mugged for the cameras. I saw you on CNN, and I was genuinely moved by your anguish. So my comments about TV appearances are general and have nothing to do with you specifically. It’s just that when I saw that question I remembered those guys standing out in the snow in 15 degrees below zero in their short sleeves. The wind was blowing, too. You had to be there. 🙂
John is there any way any of us can donate to improved signage? Where would be send a check and to whom should it be made out?
Gayle #225, you’re right. My bad.
170 – Mr. James, this posting along with your other comments made here tonight, has made me an admirer. Please don’t beat yourself up over “what ifs”. Everyone involved in this tragedy are only human.
BTW, you are doing just fine as a first time blogger. Thank you for coming here to answer our questions.
(230) Charles thanks for your post. I have been wrestling with this for a while. I have the same feeling about being paid. I might be wrong but I believe John James had to reach out to CNN to offer his services with an upfront stipulation to get paid for his time. John maybe you can elaborate?
John James thank you so much for coming here, telling us your story, and answering our questions. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your being here. It is like a blog dream come true for me to have you be here. I have actually been wishing for some time that you would come here. I really wanted to hear your story confirmed, because I had a strong feeling it was true, and it was being questioned. If only we could get all the most important parties involved (other than Kati), it would help so much to give us a more complete picture of events, and ultimately be more helpful in terms of trying to solve problems and make improvements.
So John James, that was a fee for services rendered not just for giving an interview, correct? Kind of falls in the cracks, I guess. I’m a bit surprised they’d do it, but then if you squired ’em around I guess it makes sense.
The BLM is also going to change the signs that say “Bear Camp 23 May be closed due to snow” Stating next year they will
say “Bear Camp 23 IS closed for winter travel”
213 John, I try not to write too much in a public way of some of the things Kati told me out of respect for the fact that it is her story to tell. Nonetheless, I will go ahead now relate that when Kati and I watched the CNN special together and the camera showed showed the site of where all the dirty diapers had been tucked under the car and area of the burned tires, Kati said to me, “We thought we were going to get into trouble for making such a mess out there. James swore he was going to come back and personally clean up the site.” Like, I said a bit ago, any person with a real heart will need a box of Kleenex nearby when they hear the true fact of this most bittersweet tale.
Some folks can argue that James might not rise to their own definitions of heroic, but I can state without equivocation: James Kim was thoroughly imbued with noble qualities.
237 – THAT is welcome news!…hope there is no flipping involved in that process, because we’ve seen how well that works.
One other thing, glenn. After I left journalism, the shoe was on the other foot and I often got interviewed by the media. Was on TV a bunch of times, too. I hated being on TV. The lights really freaked me out, and I just hated looking at myself. For the life of me I don’t understand why anyone would want to be on TV, but then I’ve never understood why people would want to use meth, either.
220- Your going to donate money you earned for taking CNN up to re-trace the Kim’s step…What money of your own are you going to put forth towards the “donation”……Turning your CNN money in for donations is like winning the church bingo jack pot and then donating it for a strip bar to be built….It just dosen’t sound right nor like your putting “your” money into a good cause…Just as like Oh I got some extra cash I can spill it now to look good
Gayle I do beleive that you will be able to donate to the sign fund. I will contact Jim from the BLM and find out if and how you could do that. I will repost here and give you info
[195] … Kati’s Dad — “James was overflowing with noble qualities.” … A most beautiful thing to say and feel and see in your son-in-law !!
237 0- Now that is really good to hear. Thank you, John, for sharing.
Good evening, everyone. Glenn – DId you ever get an answer from anyone in LE regarding eyewitness information, etc.?
[238] And you know him better than any of us, which is another reason why all this talk of whether he was a hero or not by strangers disgusts me. Who are we to judge when we know so little.
RRR78 give me a break I was the one up there looking for them not you. How about you donate something other than your cynicism
234- Glenn, I don’t think there is anything wrong with him being paid for that.
I hope you’re not trying to make an issue out of it, because I don’t think that should be an issue.
I need money. If I could have helped the media in a similar case after the fact I would have offered and or accepted money to do so.
I think you are possibly being coached by the other side, and I think it’s wrong.
241 A most inappropriate and offensive comment in my opinion, perhaps you should take a blog break.
Charles Wilson,
I was approached by one of my outfitters to take CNN up there because I know the roads better than just about anyone. I did make it clear from the outset that the compensation would be required and that i intended to donate it.
247- Oh I donate more then my share…more then you would ever know
(245) Hi Mike! Lots of posts I know. No I have not. I would appreciate your insight. Thanks. Also I have some questions for you do you have time to talk a call from me tomorrow?
I am glad to hear that
IMHO, there is nothing wring with John James being paid for services (not the interview) by CNN and then donating the money as he plans to do. I see no difference between that money and the same amount earned for services from any other source.
254. (wrong) sorry for typo
Sorry I’m a bit behind this evening, but wanted to address a couple of things people have asked about – (176) I may have misunderstood the ? last night to mean could legislation be passed to *require* emerg. contact info to be included in CC and cell acct. info – still don’t think so. But doesn’t mean a push for CC and cell cos. to *allow* voluntary customers to maybe pre-authorize verified LE access during emergency situations.
Also, a few people have referred to the “restaurant” (I’m presuming the Denny’s in Roseburg) refusal to cooperate – that’s never been the case. Each of the people at Denny’s was terrific, and provided info as soon as they were able. Not sure why the confusion, but just wanted to clear that up. They were great.
254. agree
Thanks for being here John. And I agree your doing great for being a new to this (blog), and again, I really hope you dont beat yourself up too much. In fact your probably one of the only people now that can say they have made a change, to get those sings fixed.
[248] & [254] ….ditto !
Thanks for the support you guys
I have offered to go up there and dig the post hole for the sign and put my labor into seeing that it is followed up on.
Maybe Kati and the girls will be emotionally healed enough to come and see the signage improved and possibly dedicated
I would like to clarify something. These things only. I have never spoken meanly about John James on this blog. In the comment referenced above when I spoke about Mr. James, I was defending him, not attacking him. I have never blamed anyone here at all! I have not changed my story about anything. I have not said a word to ANYONE here for quite some time!!! I have been sitting here quietly watching in frustration, not being allowed to clarify a damn thing! To have someone come on here now and attack me is wrong. John, I have never ever done anything to you personally. If you remember correctly, it was not Sara R. that you had a conversation with, it was the “other deputy” that was in the vehicle at that time. Sara R. was not rude to you in any way, she was quiet.
John, I think that your input and local knowledge here is valuable. I appreciate you being here, but get real John, this is not about you and I. I am not sure why you have so much hatred built up about this.
I am sorry for this posting but enough is enough! It is getting entirely too personal! You certainly won’t catch me doing that here.
John, if I could meet you in person, I don’t know what I’d do, shake your hand or give you a hug, maybe both. I am glad to have met you here. Thank you so much for posting, and I hope you’ll feel free and welcome to return here.
Whoa!…kaboom
As a guy who’s been lost on that road a few times myself, and with my own girls, I’d sure like to see that sign get posted!
(248) Lisa you really are out in left field on this one. No one is coaching me. I am trying to get to the bottom of several things here. You should see the questions I have for “the other side” – can’t even believe you said that!
Do I think it is right for John James to take money? I really don’t know. But I think it is highly strange for someone who states they are guilt ridden and ask themselves over and over again – I should have done more, etc… to then somehow want to call CNN and offer his services for pay. Whether John James needs money or not is irrelevant – it speaks to a very important point he makes:
He stated yep the media pretty much got it right see post (112), etc…he is on their payroll and his opinion is biased and we all need to take it with a grain of salt.
How soon you forget how critical I have been of Sara R. and Brian Anderson? I am no ones puppet.
As I said to RRR in a post the other day do not under estimate my tenacity to get to the truth.
Maybe Mike W. can shed some light on this…how do Detectives view opinion from a witness that has been paid and they are commenting on the person that has paid them?
In addition to being appropriate to get compensated for expenses, $550.00 is a pretty minimal amount of money, at least where I’m from.
[256] .. Det. Mike — Each of the people at Denny’s was terrific, and provided info as soon as they were able…. They were great”
Thanks for that Mike. I for one had it wrong.
260 – …
Eric F, as in Edge Eric?
241- Yes, stop trying to attack him just for any little thing you can – please get your priorities straight, RRR.
These issues are more important than immature, unrelated attacks. Sorry RRR, but it’s true.
249- Thank you Kati’s Dad.
Joy…agree 🙂
mapper. 🙂
Jocosar. You need to go back and read your post you said I changed my story many times. I have never said anything different. I was just the guy up there trying to help and I was made to feel I was nothing but a liability. I would love the opportunity to talk to you in person but a lot of things were said to me that you were saying around the sheriffs dept. so I didn’t dare to contact you. I have had many friends in the Jo Co sheriffs dept over the years and know retired as well as current officers. I have no hatred towards you but i will not allow my brother or myself to be libeled and slandered. If you wish to contact me I left my cell number with you on several occasions. Please feel free to call I do not hate you. But I won’t be torn apart for trying to help
(263) Eric…wazz up? Good to see you here.
Yes, but can not talk about anything reguading the case. Perhaps in the future Mr Mapper we can get together and figure out the best way to convey mapping information to LE or SAR.
I will absolutely call and clear up and misunderstanding or confusion. I appreciate the offer. Thank you.
Back to “read only” mode.
252 – I’m not able to take individual questions right now by phone – mostly because I’m still trying to play catchup from priority cases such as this arising, and I know you’ll understand that has to be a priority right now. I’ll be happy to continue trying to check in here though for now. Maybe later on, hope that’ll be alright.
As far as eyewitness info – obviously I would never presume to be able to speak for or represent the interpretation of another person, such as Sarah R., as you earlier asked with respect to “eyewitness” information from I think an acquaintance she knew somehow…? Generally, cases are sometimes made on eyewitness accounts, HOWEVER, in these types of cases, “eyewitness” info can run the gamut. It can be extremely valuable and it can amount to zero, and can sometimes be a “red herring” or sorts.
You would think that, with any given case, where missing persons (and vehicle description, including license plate info) were broadcast by the media, there would be a number of people who may or may not have seen something related – totally depends on each individual case.
However, almost without exception, a certain number (always varies, and no specific % applies) will call in “tips” that I would bet they honestly believe are intended to help – I think the public, in general, wants to help. Unfortunately, when over 100 (I don’t think that’s an exaggeration) tips are received, with each swearing they are virtually 100% certain they had seen THE car, with THE CA license plate (personallized) or THE family – in about 50 different places at virtually the same time – I think you get the idea. We have to take the totality of the circumstances in triaging these tips, with none being discarded without full *reasonable* consideration, before decided to act or not on each one.
Here’s the kicker (sorry this is long) – one would think that, if only a normal license plate were provided (with what, 6 or 7 digits), that would generate the most “I think I may have seen that vehicle” calls – since any digit could be misinterpreted. But when LE puts out a personalized plate (that would generally be highly recognizable as the KIM’s plate was) – one would think that would generate far fewer “possibles.” Couldn’t be further from the truth, in my experience. Ends up multiplying the # of callers by 3,4 or even 5 times…something along those lines, but you get the idea. It’s unbelievable.
Sorry for long answer to your short question.
(274) Gotta warn you Eric…Mapper is F and she claims to be a temptress. 🙂
I would very much like to speak to you about Edge at some point.
🙂 Eric so glad to here from you here!
Ms. Mapper
Glenn (to clarify 264) I was contacted by CNN not the other way around. And my intention was to donate the money from the start. Not everyone has a personal agenda.
Glenn I do not!
(276) Great response Mike…thanks for the information.
Jocosar
I really do want the opportunity to talk to you.
any time is good
264- Sorry glenn, I disgree with you on this one, and as you can see, a lot of other people agree there is nothing wrong with him taking money for such services.
To say that he is on the media’s “payroll” like there is some kind of conspiracy is absurd.
And he was just verifying that the Oregonian was right as to his account of his part of the story.
(279) Thanks John I am just trying to clarify a lot of things here. I have a list of over 150 inconsistencies that need feeling in. You have helped on several thanks.
hi eric. 🙂 we completely understand not being able to answer any questions. good to see you here.
Glenn – I would like to confirm what John said about his plan to donate the CNN fee. I played a minor logistical role between him and CNN at one point, and it was to me that John made the offer to donate the Money to SAR.
As a side note to John – I have no problem with your new plan for the money, but if you changed your mind based solely on Sara, please be advised that she is a SO employee and not a member of our non-profit organization. We reside in a County facility, but pay all our own utilities, purchase and maintain our own vehicles, and receiving no County funds. We exist solely on community donations. As I said, your new plan is good too, so no hard feelings.
No comment from me RE: payments to witnesses. Personally speaking (and this is me personally here, not as a cop), I have no problem with a guy getting paid for his time and expenses (which are being donated at any rate – way to go John) – especially when CNN or any other media outlet is attempting to use his expertise to make $$$ themselves.
Thanks lisa
I can’t know what other people said to the Oregonian but I know what I said. And I certainly didn’t get paid for any other interviews. I was paid $50.00 per hour for my time and vehicle. I was not paid for any on air time. That was just a bonus for them. In fact I was the one that contacted SAR to request that the Sheriffs deputy in the CNN story come along.
By the way I thought CNN was very accurate and sensitive in their story
Eric I am very much interested in hearing your story, if you ever are able to talk about it…you know where to find me. I can only imagine at this point!
Phil
I was going to call you but I received a lot of flak from LE and really felt degraded. I would also like to talk to you on the phone or meet for coffee at some point. And we can talk about helping SAR
Eric F – A prince among men, to be sure. I am grateful for what you did, giving me the chance to contact you and doing the right thing as a human being.
deleted at mapper’s request
Hey John James, (#250) I don’t think there is one single thing wrong with asking for payment from CNN for squiring them around. I hope you don’t see me as criticizing you, ’cause I ain’t doing that. I was just reminiscing. The print people and the TV people are a little like Iran vs. Iraq. 🙂
Eric F
I have to say also that you are awesome. Putting forth the effort you did was commendable.
No problem Charles.
They got a great story and they needed to pay for the services. They really were nice guys and really felt for the Kim family when it was all said and done
Wow! What a night on the blog! “Star-studded!”
You guys have worn me out.
Thanks for listening and putting up with me.
I will check back again
Best regards,
John
I can’t believe how hard it must be (or have been) for all of you to have kept quiet for so long. Its really interesting to hear so many of your voices tonight.
I am a bit overwhelmed!
(286) Thanks Phil. I just think it is amazing how many eyes are watching this site. So many sit there and lurk and then all of a sudden they have to chime in. I think it is great!
Charles you should write a narrative about the blogging world, etc.
All of you need to open up and say what is your mind!
Let me say something else, John, in hopes of making it even clearer what I think. Where I come from, people get paid for their work. If you squired CNN around, you worked. If you choose to donate the proceeds, great. But it’s your decision, your money and your business.
p.s.: Did I ever tell you that I once almost punched out a TV cameraman in the U.S. Capitol building. Yep, right there under a marble doorway. One of the cops saw it and stepped in. Good thing for the TV guy. I was prepared to do some serious damage, and not just to the equipment. Those people are animals. 🙂
[238] Kati’s Dad: I’m more of a lurker here, but I have to say just when the conversation turns into an abstract (albeit interesting) exercise of map reading and creating proper signage, a glimpse of the true horror of what happened comes through (from Kati’s Yelp page, your comments) and it throws me for a loop. I can’t imagine how Kati deals with reminders of it all (her daughter’s umbrella, her destroyed car). Really, I just feel for her so much.
(300) Charles just when I think you are starting to make some sense you have to throw in some off the wall comments (i.e. punching a TV cameraman?)
Yes, and thank you so much Eric F – you really ended up being the one with the proof – the info that truly narrowed the search location.
I hope you will be able to talk with us more after the investigation!
Fair enough John, I still have your cell number and I’ll give you a call tomorrow. As you know I don’t work for any of the agencies involved, yet this ordeal has been difficult for many of the volunteers such as myself. The Oregonian even got hold of my personal cell phone and although I agree with it, the SO gag order has been painful all the way around. Talk to you soon.
It was a long time ago, glenn. He really had it coming. But it’s just as well the cop was there.
(293) Iran and Iraq with a smiley…???
Maggies going to eat her sock for going out tonight!
🙂 true mapper
(293) Charles the Iran/Iraq comparison to print and tv media – I don’t get it? Over 1,000,000 people died in the course of the Iran/Iraq conflict…sorry to be somewhat off-topic that analogy is really strange to me.
307- Mapper I’ll bet she’ll want to!
Joe, are you here? Can you believe it?
And yes, Eric F – you are also a true hero in my book!
Oh boy. glenn, there is a considerable amount of rivalry and mutual disrespect between print reporters and people who work in the electronic media.
Glenn, I think Charles WIlson is the real thing–probably not his real name, but you can’t fake good writing. Some of his previous posts were put together pretty well. AND from what I’ve just learned about the media–I bet they get punched a lot!
Kati’s Dad – It breaks my heart to read that Kati’s little girl feels she needs to take care of her Mom. That is a terribly heavy load for a little girl to carry. My heart goes out to the entire family.
Now I am blog dreaming again…
Ok, tara – how about Brian Powers?/! After the investigation?
wait for it…. wait for it….. 🙂
312 – Eric, you mean it’s not just the paparozzi that gets punched?
(312) I am not doubting Charles writing skills, wit and what he is about and what he is doing.
BTW thanks for stepping up for the Kims that is really something!
Lisa–thanks. Dare I suppose that just about anyone else in my shoes would have done the same. My part in this was highly touted–but on the grand scheme of things –it was nothing.
Eric F, if you are Eric Fuqua, in the forthcoming narrative you are listed among those whose actions were praiseworthy.
Adapted from Merriam Webster’s On-Line Dictionary:
praiseworthy: Laudable, worthy of favorable judgment
(313) Gayle it just might be part of James shining through for his family! 🙂
So Phil, can you tell us anything about the cell phone map as to how it was handled Saturday night and by the night shift? I think you said you were a volunteer in the JoCo cmd post that evening.
Was JoCoSAR the central command post that night for more than one county or was the search in JoCo about to be called off? All very confusing to me.
Eric, welcome to pac-wilson’s human coding system.
I am still going with hero.
313 Penelope is an amazingly intelligent and socially savy child. Kati is so fortunate to have her as a little support person.
313- Gayle, yes, I know your post is addressed to Kati’s Dad, but I just wanted to say, I had a similar experience as a little girl – it is a child’s way of trying to compensate for their pain and the pain of all those around them.
316 — I just dont think he could be that PacNW guy that I saw everyone quarelling with earlier.
Katis dad – she is really cute too!
324 – So did I.
324 My heart goes out to all the children who have lost their Father’s in Iraq, of course, the broader picture for any child who loses a loving Father. It was hard to watch the part of the evening news today when they showed the children kissing their fathers who are being sent back to Iraq.
I’m nowhere near caught up with this incredible night that’s been going on here.
John James – it’s very good to have you here! Thank you so much for sharing with us and for what you tried to do.
Eric F – you have made Mapper’s night, and I’d love to hear more from you (I’m still catching up, so maybe once I get to the end you will have said some more 🙂 .
Kati’s Dad – anytime you tell us a little more about James or Kati, my heart breaks a little more for your family.
Det Mike – if you are still here, I’m sure you have plenty on your plate, but I wondered if you happened to know whether the report got into the mail on Friday or today? I haven’t received it yet.
And now I need to try to catch back up.
(and I’m not wearing any socks)
287 – Mike, couldn’t agree more. If John got paid for taking a crew up there, I don’t have a problem with it. It’s not like the knife store witness in the OJ trial selling his story to the Enquirer, then getting bounced as a prosecution due to the clobbering he would take by Johnnie C.!
324- Sorry Kati’s Dad – I didn’t mean to overlap, I wasn’t sure if you were still with us, or may have gone to sleep. Although it’s difficult on such an exciting evening. I’m so glad you are here with us for all of this!
From what I was able to determine, the search got underway in the right area without Eric’s positioning information. I think his information, along with some other data, enabled Lt. Powers (also deemed “praiseworthy”) to persuade Sarah Rubrecht not to call off Josephine County’s SAR effort on Sunday, Dec. 3.
The peripheral importance of the information is why I used the label I did for Fuqua’s action. Also, I would note that James Kim died on Sunday afternoon and Josephine County’s continuing SAR effort had no role in finding his body. Kati Kim and her children were located by a private helicopter pilot, so while the Mr. Fuqua and Lt. Powers’s efforts were praiseworthy they were not lifesaving or potentially lifesaving.
This isn’t to denigrate them. To the contrary, their efforts were laudable and worthy of favorable judgment.
315- tara, you are better than santa! 🙂
Kati’s Dad– Sir, I just want you to know how much I empathize with Kati, James, and the two little ones. I’ve been all too close to being in that exact same situation myself. I did what I did because I HAD too. Hearing the news of their rescue was truely one of the greatest moments of my life.
(334) that’s just cool!
318- Eric F, I disagree, but you are humble and that makes you even more – a hero and charming!
@ Eric F. — I just want to say I sure admired your initiative in this search. It must have been so frustrating knowing what you knew but not being able to get your information acted upon immediately. I hope details of the jamming bureaucratic roadblocks you encountered are disclosed in the upcoming SAR report. If not perhaps you could air the story as you experienced it, here.
I join many others here at joeducks’ commending you for your independent sleuthing efforts and for your dogged persistence in getting that information through thick heads in the way.
Maggie (329) – I’ve decided that Fred the Cat can eat my socks if we’re all wrong.
By the way, yesterday I bought a paperback book to take with me to the hopital for when my husband was sleeping. I thought I should broaden my horizons from the Kim case for a break while away from the computer, just to keep my head from spinning from all the activity here.
I had not read the synopsis of the book. Imagine my surprise when I began reading: Story of a lost woman on a desolate Oregon Rd. to the coast (Tillamook Co.), car found abandoned, family member (who is also LE) is involved in search, cell phone calls enter into the story, etc., etc., and that was only the first 50 pages. I could not believe it, my get away book didn’t get me away at all.
334- and caring!
334. – 🙂
Also, while were throwing out the praise. thanks to the detective too for apparently taking eric seriously.
338 – Please share the title and author?
Madeleine, thats just wierd!
(341) There are several regular citizens that stepped up and beyond the call of duty in this case. They all should be commended – Kati and kids are alive today largely due to their efforts.
I think it is important to note that Kati as a mother did an amazing job keeping those two precious beams of light safe and well!
338 – Madeleine, that is pretty ironic. I hope your husband is feeling much better today.
Charels sir, remember what they taught you in reporters school? I think it was the first lesson…something about a chicken, a fox, and an henhouse?
mapper (341), the new website is very close. As we speak, Dee is sending me e-mails as she codes each section. The comment forum is ready, too. So, once you and others get the chance to read through it, you’ll have plenty of opportunity to suggest changes.
The narrative is intended as a dynamic document. It will be altered as new reports emerge and/or as Dee and I are persuaded to alter our views. We persuaded each other on some aspects of the analysis over the weekend, so our minds are not closed by any means.
John James should absolutely have accepted compensation for his time with the CNN news crew. How many of the news crew folks are working voluntary? Diane Sawyer brings us news stories at a salary of around 8 million a year and she is a pauper compared to Oprah who makes over $200 million.
John, you did the right thing. It’s your money. If you choose to donate it to a good cause, then good to you.
One of the major network stations offered to pay for our plane tickets from Albuquerque to Oregon if I would agree to an exclusive the morning after Kati and the kids were found. I said no, but I had I been unable to afford the tickets, I would have probably taken the offer. CNN did pay for our hotel one night in Albuquerque.
To Eric F. and John James: Thank you both for participating here, but most especially for what you did. John, please don’t agonize over what you think you should have done, there is no way to know for sure how that would have turned out. Fate has a way of stepping in for some reason or another, always frustrating, I know.
Eric, regardless of what one or two posters here may say, I believe your efforts led to the rescue. Thank you for caring enough to get involved.
Eric (346), when Gore Vidal described America as the home of the literal and the land of the dull, he was thinking of me. Could you please spell it out for me? Thanks.
I think it is worthy noting how so many of the people who felt compelled to act and who ultimately salvaged the situation have said they did so because they could see themselves in the same situation, with their own children, etc. Something to think about when slinging about criticisms of the Kims.
Charles (pac)
With all due respect I feel like I am watching a bad version of the movie twister…where the flashy villain tries to steal everyone’s ideas because he has finally realized the value of them, and wants to be the hero in the end.
respectfully…
Bamadad #321 – Sorry, but I was told I went too far already. After all none of us can be certain what the OSSA thinks is noteworthy, and none of us want to do anything to mess up their efforts to produce an accurate, timely report. I have much to say and can only ask that you respect the position I am in.
With that said I must also let you know that in my efforts to be vague on details, I may have misled you as to my role. I was attending an EMT class out of town over the weekend, so my involvement began Monday morning. The briefing we received did give me a good insight into the decisions that had led up to that point, but even after I am allowed to speak, I can’t provide a firsthand account of the weekend activities.
341- Yes, I believe that Det. Mike is probably one of those too many unsung daily heroes…
Maggie !!! – we missed you !!! The roof blew off the house while you were gone. Every time I hit refresh I have 15 minutes of reading to do. My laptop is smoldering. LOOK what happens when you go out for one night !!!
Charles– well I differ with your take on the “peripheral importance” of Eric’s positioning information, which we have been calling the cell phone map. Why do you call it “peripheral”?
Until I hear more, I think it was key, even Lt.Power’s said something like that. So here are my assumptions as to it’s worth:
If whoever received it at the JoCo HQ’s Saturday night had a clue as to how to interpret it or had called Eric F for help or asked him to come to the HQ’s ASAP, JoCo could have done many things with this intelligence that might have saved James before Sunday afternoon.
For instance send up the FLIR by midnight to look at likely points of intersection. If James knows someone is searching from the sound of rotor wash, then maybe he would have stopped in place, sheltered up and waited for rescue instead of plunging into neck deep water later Sunday. He could have perhaps assumed his family would soon be found.
JoCo could have had a plan to send up the other three Carson helos and the one additional NG helo at daylight and nailed down those 50 or so intersections, that JoCoSAR said were on the cellphone map. If James hears the cavalry coming, maybe he would sit and rest and know his family would soon be safe.
So until I hear that this “positioning information” was imprecise, that is what was wrong with the search … in my humble opinion.
….and the test is not that it wouldn’t have made a difference in this case, but that it will make a difference in the next case.
Why do you call it “peripheral”?
Off to bed for me here on the east coast. It’s been an eye-opening and eye-popping night. I don’t know how some of you have the time and energy to devote to contributing here. I can barely get my household jobs done in between refreshing the page and reading along. Not to mention, the extra pound or two from sitting so much in front of my computer all the time. I’m beginning to think you all are retired senior citizens!
Eric, I too want to add my praise for your actions and humble demeanor. What you did went above and beyond. Thank you.
Good night everyone.
316-Eric / Finally someone else agrees with me! 🙂 Very cool you came to visit us tonight, you saved 3 lives and came so close to saving a 4th. Kudos to you!!!
Charles
My Q is in regard to your comment 332
Phil, thanks for clearing that up, that you began on Monday. and thanks again for being a volunteer. You folks set a wonderful example. thanks.
Well done… to Eric and John James, both.
Gayle and Mapper: Sorry, meant to post the book name: “Gone”, by Lisa Gardner (2006). Had I turned it over and read the back, I’d have seen the following included: “A car has just been found abandoned on a desolate stretch of Oregon highway…..”
Of course it’s not a missing vacationing family, just a missing woman, but it was so strange having it be this particular topic! Oh, and Lt. Gregg Hastings from OSP, another familiar name to this case, was thanked as an advisor for the book. Small world, indeed.
Adirondacker, thanks for the kind words, he’s doing fine, home and resting, having confounded the cardiologists. Oh, and I always thought the Adirondacks sounded so cool to visit.
goodnight, Im out.
thank you eric.
thank you john.
361 – Thank you so much, I like that author, have read a lot of her novels. But not that one yet. 🙂
Charles.
I think Lt.Powers said the cellphone information was a “breakthrough”. Of course the location of the James’cellphone ping and the cell tower were bass ackwards. But it wouldn’t take a genius to clear that up in about five seconds– there is no cell phone coverage up on Bear Camp Road. So you run it back to ground to get that cleared up.
Thanks. Have to check out now. Sleep.
‘night all
Mapper, I sent you mail, unless I read your address wrong.
347 – I knew I shouldn’t have refreshed the page! I’ve been trying so hard to be good all night…..biting my tongue.
“new website” = slanted, egotistical, personal debate forum, under autocratic rule, farming for viewers on another’s site?
And yes, now that I’ve stuck my nose in it (and it stinks!) I have to say I’ll chew my socks, also. But, I don’t think I’ll have to.
Goodnight.
Adirondacker, a formal hello to you! and good night! 🙂
Do any of those who might know (RRR, JoCo, Phil) have any better idea as to when the report might be released? With some of the contentious debate tonight betwixt some of the parties I am more anxious than ever to see it.
I got it paul, I wrote back.
352- Mapper, I believe you may deserve a prize for this one… 🙂
367 – Boy, there aren’t many of us in the non-sock camp. If our meager camp is right on this, you’ll need a Sockpot for all those socks (groan!)
I do agree that many of those rules sound more like a totalitarian state than a true forum of open ideas, unlike our beloved Joe Duck.
371- or prizes!
night tara, Gayle, and Adirondacker! 🙂
373. Thanks Lisa, no socks please! And no…I do not deserve a prize. Thank you all for putting up with me.
Bamadad #356, if Mr. Fuqua had never learned of the location, how would anything have changed? If the Josephine County SAR effort had gotten the information on Saturday morning, how would things have changed? The search was already concentrated in the right area. The cellphone ping didn’t matter.
Where has Joe been through all of this? I’m sure he must have observed some of it… With a big smile no doubt! 🙂
(372) Paul, it is pretty obvious plus a little bird told me tonight that Pac was finally banned over at MT. He had to re-invent himself plain and simple…but the subtle clues are there if you look.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they are going to try to make some money off of this – I could be wrong but we will see.
Something isn’t right with the picture we are being presented from Charles Wilson.
However if he is successful in making something positive out of this for others than that is all that matters.
Charles #332 – Can’t believe I’m doing this after I swore to myself that I’d done my last post, but I am going to repeat something I already covered in a previous post. Oh, before I go on, I want to say that I understand you could not have known what I am about to tell you, and I agree with most of what you said.
My point is very simple – SAR missions are conducted under a strict command structure. The vast majority of decisions are made with team input, but there is always one Incident Commander shouldering ultimate responsibility. In the normal routine this is not the Sheriff, and may be delegated to a line Deputy or someone in between. Just for clarification, that person is never Sara Rubrecht. I have worked with her on occasions where she and I wanted to keep a search going and the IC pulled the plug, and on other occasions we have felt we were burning out the volunteers for no reason, but the IC said to keep going. In short it is not her decision.
As SAR Coordinator it was her job to hold the conversation with Brian Powers (see GR), but anything said about canceling the search was her relaying information from the IC. So blaming her is akin to shooting the messenger. Of course I’m not saying that there was anything wrong with discussing when to end the search, based on known information that may have been an appropriate consideration at the time. I’ll withhold my judgment until the OSSA report is out. Same with the conversation with John James on the hill. Not that John had any way of knowing this, but the other “Deputy” was in charge, not her.
Someone posted an entry awhile back that raised the concern that the OSSA report was going to be glowing because the government will protect itself. My concern is the opposite. How often do you think they find some poor sole in middle management to pin the whole thing on. Sara may have made some mistakes, or maybe she didn’t, and if she did she can be held accountable in due time following due process. But for whatever reason the Oregonian and then much of the world has zeroed in on her and the gag order has prevented SO admin from rescuing her. She has received more hate mail than anyone I’ve ever known, and all the time she is going though the human emotions of second guessing herself (as we all are), and she wants to be allowed to grieve for the Kim family, but knows anything she says will sound insincere.
I’m not sensitive on any other point and I am not taking sides between her and John. I just want it understood that she was not in charge of the search. Period. So can we please give her a rest until the full story is known.
372 – Paul, sometimes I’m not sure whether I’ve logged on to “Joe Duck” or “Joe, Duck!!” Poor Joe, it’s like herding cats around here sometimes. He tries so hard to keep us civil, and we’re good for a short time, then someone stops in here and stirs things up it’s on.
I will say that Pac couldn’t go more than a few posts without referring to the “Love fest” between this site and some of the principals or whatever he called it. So there may be a whole lotta socks to stir in the sock pot after all, since I’m not sure Pac could contain himself for this many posts.
Madeleine,
Might I just say, my second favorite phrase learned on this forum is “like herding cats”
375- Mapper, you are more than a pleasure to put up with! 🙂
And now, I must say goodnight too!
hmmmm Perhaps I missed some of that earlier PACNW stuff, but from what I saw that guy seemed pretty closed minded and more willing to create conflict than any thing else. And, did PacNW ever complete any sentences? Let alone a paragraph?
382- And you know, there is no real “putting up with”
there – all pleasure for me! 🙂
(379) Thank you Phil. That definitely needed to be said and your efforts are certainly noble by doing so – thanks for sticking your neck out like that.
We need to get all the answers we can get before we can figure all of this out and I think it is highly unfair to kick people who cannot defend themselves. We should wait until they can kick back.
Yes, this evening was lively. At this point the postings have slowed somewhat. This gives me an opportunity to clear up a question in my mind. It concerns a piece in a number of postings. My question refers to the information in the roadway that says “To the Coast” or something like that. Is this a USFS/BLM sign? Would this bit of information be covered by snow? Who has knowledge of this sign (maps or information booths)? I remember reading that it was painted on the road surface.
I don’t know if this has any meaning for the outcome but it is something that has puzzled me through the many postings.
Phil (#379), we will absolutely welcome your comments at the new website. In naming Ms. Rubrecht as negligent, I wrote:
“A more thorough, and more favorable, account of Ms. Rubrecht’s actions between Dec. 1 and Dec. 6 could change our opinion.”
The website should be up momentarily, so you can read the whole thing for yourself.
Phil, we are going to be particularly interested in any insights you can provide about the structure of SAR efforts. See, one of the reasons we’re doing the other site is because we want to have a high signal-to-noise ratio. I absolutely promise you that your input will be welcomed and taken seriously.
383.
I’ve read everything he has written (unfortunatley) until I started glazing over it when he got too crazy with bold and italics. I’ve also read some of the stuff on the MT (where he says much of the same about joe being unfair, or communist).
Same message (exact same except for changing his mind about the internet being useful), same writing style, just keeping the anger under wraps cause he has to tonight. Also, he has decided to do something now so has a stake in having a better reputation. I think he let the anger out more freely before because it was just a hobby and fun for him plus he thinks were all too stupid to follow it anyway.
Plus, he and Dee? coeincedence? I think not.
But, I will eat my sock if I am wrong.
379- Thanks Phil, that really helps clarify a lot!
381 – mapper, still catching up. Does that mean my eating socks is number one? Madeleine’s herding cats is my personal favorite saying from here – and so, so true!
Back to catching up.
380/Madeleine: I like that – Joe, DUCK!! Agree also that the Pac I know and love could NEVER contain himself on a night like tonight without lashing out in vindictive, snide, sarcastic fashion at all us bleeding hearts from California…(funny thing, virtually none of the folks he was always taking potshots at are from or in CA, near as I could tell). Wish there was some way to know for sure….
Yes, Maggie, and I shall try not to overuse it as it is still my favorite!
386 – Calm Guy, there are more pictures other places (perhaps in the ones Joe has linked – can’t recall for sure). Anyway this shows the small sign to the coast:
(389) If anything mapper maybe all of us rabble-rousers over here got him to get serious and finally do something. If he can help I think it is great!
I am still amazed with all the information that is still missing how it is possible to label someone – labeling someone isn’t a good thing anyway. It is rather obnoxious.
He never was able to discuss the word Hero in conjunction with the Kims…not even about Kati.
395. agree
394 – And here is the link to the pictures Joe posted that someone took a week or so ago. One or two of these show the spray painting on the road. Plus many other shots of area.
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?start=all
385- glenn, for the record, I certainly didn’t mean to ‘kick’ anyone, and I think that ‘kicking’ and ‘kicking back’ isn’t the point anyway, and although I think you probably mean it lightly, it’s not the best or most constructive way to characterize the debate involved…
because it’s so far from the real point, and the substance involved in the real issues.
I found a video about Joe Duck!!!
I asked the question sometime this (Monday) afternoon. After searching and finding a great amount of information about ICS and the roll of each person in the “IMT” I had asked the question about what IMT roll JOCOSAR and Sarah played. It seemed to me that her roll was not in search management.
Phil, you have cleared up some of the questions I have wondered about. It seems that the messenger has taken the brunt of the criticism. Does JOCOSAR have a roll in what I understand is the “Overhead Management. While I may not be correct in some of the terms, you may be able to clear some of this up for me.
399 – Glenn, WAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!! 🙂
395/Glenn – I asked him point blank earlier today and he never did respond…maybe if you ask him? (that continues to bother me)…but if he denies it, how could one prove otherwise ? I will offer this – if it IS him, being this civil has to be eating him alive (but I still don’t think it’s him). 🙂
Calm Guy…it’s the second one on that last page marked ” THEintersectionFS…” I know that all to well….been there done that.
I’ve missed that turn several times and in broad daylight even. I’ll let you be the judge of how the white paint looks covered with snow!
Let me say why, from my viewpoint as an investigator, I think Eric F’s actions ARE, in fact, not even close to peripheral, but critical and invaluable. In a MPERS investigation (not commenting specifically on SAR, in keeping with my usual), the most important information is known as the “Last Best Information,” whether that be electronic data which can be tracked, an actual eyewitness (verifiable) contact, etc.
The first piece of almost verifiable (which later became 100%) information came from the Portland area citizen who gave us the initial info re : Denny’s, which was later confirmed. That was HUGE. It allows SAR efforts to shift resources south of Hwy 38 (and Hwy 101 connecting Hwy 38 south to next coastal mtn junction).
THEN comes Fuqua – who is able to provide verifiable (at least as far as the capture of the cell ph # info) information which…and this is the important part for investigators…confirms, by an overwhelming likelihood, that SAR is in the correct area, that had been initially determined by their collective past experience and the possibility that the family had run into trouble there.
I have the utmost respect for each and every LE and SAR and volunteer member who were involved. When the initial APB was put out by our TT (Teletype) late on 11/30, by the first of the next am, before we could even answer all the calls from southern OR agencies and OSP, offering assists, they were ALREADY searching everywhere reasonably possible, given the lack of any specific, VERIFIABLE information. With all respect, those not in LE have no idea how hard it is sometimes to assign expensive resources to a “search,” when there has been no verified information to put someone in a particular place.
The name of the game in MPERS is to pare down the search, refocus, regroup and reassign, as necessary. Despite anyone’s opinion of how the SAR went or should have gone, I have never been more proud to be an Oregonian (20+ yrs now) than I was that day. There are more ??? in MPERS type cases than almost any other type of case.
Eric brought us together in our common goal of being able to further the mission, collectively, which confirmed was most already thought, but had not yet been confirmed. Now THAT is a person worthy of accolades. He never had to come forward – but he (and his partner) did, and that’s what counts.
399/Glenn – on that outstanding note – very good find !!! – I must depart. G’Night all.
402. Paul, he may be avoiding outright swearing. I do not find him civil.
But, I also dont like talking about him for fear I am breaking the rules. you know what I think, now, as I have made that clear. I place great faith in the truth coming out eventually 🙂
if I am wrong, and we never find out I never have to eat my sock.
if I am right, and we never find out…well you dont have to do your song/dance routine.
so its really win/win.
Sorry – I realize I tend to be long-typed, but sometimes certain things just need to be shared – from those who are among those who appreciate it most.
And Maggie – had an anon call today at wk asking about the report, but was from a man (?) – I checked w/ PIO and he confirmed it was mailed to you on Fri.
406/Mapper: I like win/win, it’s good for everybody. Must clarify though, I can write song, but no way can I dance – that would be punishment for you all, not entertainment. G’Night.
(398) For the record Lisa I wasn’t even referring to you.
The only person you kicked tonight was me when you accused me of being coaches by “the other side”.
I was quite surprised by that comment and even more surprised when you had defined sides to this.
There are no sides to this set of issues. It can only be about one thing – how can we improve this for all concerned? Some of us believe the biggest chance for overall improvement is to get all the facts out.
Not so that we can label someone as a hero or negligent, or we can get somebody fired, or fuel a lawsuit or to make money from this but to understand how things happened when and how and what if anything is possible in the future to afford everyone a better result.
I take extreme exception to the phrases like “the other side”. It has been by the painstaking efforts of people like myself and Tara to get people here to finally talk (and yes Tara and I work directly every day tracking people down). Many may lurk and pop their heads in now and then but some very key people who posted tonight were a direct result of an invitation sent to them. We have many more out there to.
The analysis and opinions being presented by Charles Wilson is what many of us were even saying while the search was still going on – there is nothing new there.
A lot of us have moved from the “sides” view and are trying to create a complete picture to help us understand – you can’t possibly be on a “side” to do that.
I will admit there is one major exception for me and that is the Kim family and specifically James and Kati – to me they are off-limits. It just isn’t right to say some of the things that people are saying about them.
I am very confused with people like Charles Wilson – he is so quick to label Sara R. as negligent but refuses to even discuss that James or Kati could be a hero.
If we continue to create “sides” to this tragedy we will never have a chance of getting all the answers.
404 – Thank you very much, Det Mike. It’s always so very informative (and interesting!) to hear how these things really work. I knew it wasn’t like on TV, but still didn’t have much better of a realistic idea. I really love it when you come and explain!
407 – I’m not a man, so it wasn’t me 🙂 Wonderful, if mailed Friday, I really should have it tomorrow (odd it didn’t come today, but mail can be odd sometimes, I guess). Thank you very much!
Detective, I enjoyed reading it. You have a lot to say, that is valuable, in my opinion.
(403) Amen Eric…
(404) Thanks Mike your perspective is so helpful. Eric you should be proud of what you did – so many wouldn’t have.
Eric – now that I’m caught up and things are a little quieter, I would like to add my thanks to that of others. You are very humble, but you really did a great thing.
Maggie, Thanks for the information leading to the pictures. I didn’t see anything that indicated information to the “Coast” however I did see the “Dead End” painted on the roadway. Comparing that information to other signs, my guess is that is probably not a USFS/BLM piece of information. The pictures on the web posting were certainly clear and easy to understand. I one of the first pictures a snow covered the roadway. I doubt if a hand painted sign would show through even in light snow. The pictures were very clear and gave me a better understanding of what available information the traveler has. Thanks for taking the time to get those links to me. Someone certainly took time to get them, no easy task.
And if I may… not to sound too Officer-Friendly soundbite-ish, but… for all the media’s focus on “LE had to wait for family members to step up and provide this data,” or “private citizens like Fuqua had to step up themselves and provide that assistance,” (quotes added for emphasis only) – what the media fails to recognize is that the very tenants of community policing – which just about every agency has made strides to improve over the past 10-15 years, is BASED upon building relationships and cooperative efforts – including with non-LE persons and groups – to affect common positive change.
Not for a minute will I (or I would expect any other LE member) take any credit for the hard work and contributions of the Kim family’s other family members, friends and associates (and there were many!). ..or the efforts of people like Eric. I just wish the media could realize, and parish the thought – positively report on what I, for one, believe was a fine *cooperative* effort that was the epitomy of community policing.
Calm Guy, this one was the small sign to the coast (unless you meant the spray painted word coast?):
Definitely could not see the spray painting in the snow, and looks and sounds like it’s confusing even in great conditions.
I know I try to be more fact-based, but thank you for letting me voice some heartfelt thoughts tonight too.
(416) Mike I am curious – are you considered a visionary in the force?
I mean that in all seriousness because you seem to really understand the elements of cooperation, leadership and the ability to look at the rubix cube solution of a problem.
They really are lucky to have a resource like yourself. I tip my hat to you.
Det. Mike W., I think Mr. Fuqua’s action was praiseworthy, but I don’t see how it changed anything. On Dec. 1st, the search was focused on the correct area, i.e., between Agness and Galice. On Dec. 2nd, helicopters and people were in that area anyway.
From the governor’s log of official actions released Jan. 5th, it appears that Mr. Fuqua’s recording of the telephone ping was one of a number of pieces of information that the Oregon State Police (Lt. Brian Powers) cited in his successful effort to persuade Josephine County SAR not to call off their efforts on Sunday, Jan. 3rd.
Sunday is the day James Kim died at Big Windy Creek. The search never found him. Had it been called off on Sunday, the outcome for James Kim would have been no different.
On Monday, John Rachor, a helicopter pilot affiliated with no one, found Kati Kim and her children. His action had no connection to the cellphone ping. On Wednesday, a private pilot hired by Spencer Kim found James Kim’s body. You might be able to argue, and I stress might that the cellphone ping contributed in some way to the search for Mr. Kim’s body being concentrated where it was.
I think it’s useful to recover bodies. It provides closure for the family, that’s for sure. But I don’t regard the recovery of a body as a signal achievement. It’s a consolation prize at best.
Eric Fuqua had no way of knowing that his efforts would ultimately not make any difference. His actions were laudable and worthy of favorable judgment, but the fact that they ultimately didn’t have anything to do with the outcome is a relevant factor here. Again, I’m absolutely not damning anyone with faint praise.
Mr. Fuqua, even if you don’t like me I like what you did. My Jewish friends would call it a mitzvah, and mitzvahs deserve at the very least a tip of the hat.
418. Heartfelt thoughts are valuable too, and I think a lot of us agree that it would be hard to do these kinds of jobs well without having some empathy, to begin with.
416 – Det Mike, that really is such a great point. Imagine an article with that kind of focus on what can be done together. Perhaps in another case, another Eric for example, would step forward to offer help in something specialized. I wonder how often someone could help, but it doesn’t really occur to them that their help is needed – that maybe the PD already has that kind of thing already in place.
(420) How do you know James Kim died on Sunday? You state it like a fact.
419- Glenn, you’d be surprised how many LE and related folks are out there every day (nation- and worldwide) committed to these ideas – and putting them to work as effectively as possible. Just won’t read about it the media or get national attention – doesn’t sell news.
Thanks for the kind words.
glenn (#423)there was some excellent analysis of the time of death back in the first comment page of this board. It was painstakingly reasoned, and dovetails quite nicely with the findings of the coroner. Yes, it’s possible James Kim died on Monday but highly unlikely. He almost certainly expired on Sunday afternoon. For more analysis, you should return to the first comment page of the joeduck comment board.
(424) I actually know several but mainly in specific branch of the DOJ.
I know being a detective means you definitely have above average intuition and problem solving skills – otherwise you pretty much wouldn’t solve anything. But I really see some serious leadership qualities in your style.
Charles and I would like to invite all of you to take a look at our newly launched website and forum at KimTragedy.info. Just click on my name below. Feel free to post or lurk. We both will be going back and forth from our site to here and all the other blogs and such. Thanks.
(425) Charles I know the analysis regarding the time of his death inside and out. I did many of the calculations myself.
I cannot fathom how you say it dovetails nicely with the coronor…did you read the report?
I don’t ever remember the coronor ever mentioning Sunday in fact I think the report makes it even more clear that accurate time of death is near impossible.
420 – I’m not going to try and change your mind. That’s not why I’m here. But what I can share is that hindsight is only that. We can move forward and learn from it, but it serves no value whatsoever at the moment of action.
And my point (taking nothing away from what I recognize as Eric’s valued contribution) was that from an *investigative* standpoint, being able to provide verifiable information that assets being deployed (and yes, it is necessary to consider the financial implications for all governmental agencies) were being deployed in the correct area only reinforced the efforts already made to that point.
Det Mike W, I want to be accurately understood here: I am NOT in any way, shape or form criticizing Mr. Fuqua. If and when you read the narrative you will see that he’s on a short list of people praised. If I were your eighth-grade teacher, I’d be the guy about whom was said, “What the hell do I have to do to get an A out of the guy? Bring him the broom of the Wicked Witch of the West?”
To which I’d have answered something like, “I’m tough, but I’m fair. And when I’ve given you an A, you won’t have any doubt that you’ve earned it.”
Paul where are you? When you read the narrative on djdee’s site you will have your confirmation…just read the analysis and conclusions specifically about James and Kati Kim.
Kim’s Dad you really might not want to read it.
That’s all, folks. For tonight, that is. G’night!
431 – Glenn, it’s all there barely reworded, isn’t it… Oy. I might have to tip that way.
Det Mike, if I don’t receive the report tomorrow for some reason, is there a way that I can contact you? If not, I assume that Joe knows how to reach you, right?
(431) I meant Kati’s Dad…sorry about that.
I am just floored at the garbage from that site. It is just horrible.
At least James and Kati got “admirable” at some point.
409- Sorry glenn, I had gone away, but I am back briefly.
I truly agree with you that there should be no “sides” in this case, however, people have taken “sides” and in the instance of that comment we were talking with John James and JoCoSAR and RRR had been saying that he had changed his story, and said that he had checked the whole road, etc., so it seemed that they were taking sides. And if Sara R’s father has been writing all these nasty letters to the editor and John James says says he would easily and willingly take a lie detector test, etc. It seems that there are sides there.
And it didn’t look any better when RRR jumped in and started attacking him for the same things you were asking him about – taking money from CNN, etc. at the time.
And earlier today you said quite a number of things that led me to think you may have been talking to various potential birdies.
I so truly appreciate all the work you and tara are doing tracking people down – I think that it is so important to hear from as many people as possible.
You will find with me that the truth is more important than anything, and that is what I seek. Because the only real justice is in the truth.
I don’t care who did what, but I do care what was done and
what was not done so we can learn from it.
And you will find that I will be interested in those things
no matter who did what.
(434) It’s like a jihad against the Kims…just unbelievable.
Anyone that embraces that site and analysis will never be able to see how to improve this long-term the opinions and analysis are so short-sighted and small minded.
Sorry Joe but when you read it it will make your head spin.
At least know we know it really is Pac!
[425] — I think it possible (likely?) James died Saturday night. That’s why I asked John James earlier tonight how far he thought James Kim travelled down the drainage gulch Saturday. It seems to me improbable that he could have survived a freezing night soaking wet & malnourished as he was and exhausted after hopelessly slogging 15-20 miles that day.
The calcultions a joeduck poster made way back of estimated travelled time and distance were in my view too simplistic to be of much credulousness.
[432] … You’re not going to hear nearly as much from me from here on our.
oh, that’s so sad !
(440) Kip he very well may have died Saturday night. We just don’t know any speculation about the exact time of his death to me seem irrelevant as far as the search goes.
In my mind James should have returned to the car as he promised unless that just a way of settling Kati’s fears.
He didn’t have a chance in those conditions with the resources he took with him.
(441) Kip are you trying to make me laugh…because you did!
Det. Mike W.
After looking at the extensive amount of information concerning ICS, it seems that this form on event management is used in wild land fires and not so much in LE. However this evening Phil acknowledged that Search and Rescue used this as a management tool. If this is the case is JOCOSAR taking heat that he may not deserve and I guess in the same vain is Sarah R taking heat as well. What roll does JOCOSAR have in the IMT and is a LE person with command authority? If Sarah R is a searcher herself do all volunteer searchers leave themselves open to attach?
(438) Lisa I have more to tell you and I will some day. 🙂
Glenn, no but LOL when I read your [443]
anybody… please, what does abbreviation LE mean? I can’t find out from qik web search. thanks.
Wow, the narrative links to the pictures taken for this site. Interesting. At least we made “most valuable blog” mention.
Kip – Law Enforcement 😉
(446) and LEO is law enforcement officer
What if I don’t wear socks?
Laurie
450 – Safer that way 😉
(447) So what do you think now? Are you a potential sock eater or part of the circus?
(450) Are you a believe now? Welcome! No socks then you will have to shave your head!
452 – Glenn, it does walk like a Pac, and no doubt spouts like a Pac, and even has motive to be a Pac… I’m 98.6% convinced it’s a Pac.
452 – And I only ever said I’d eat my sock if Pac was not a boy/man. 😉
(454) I like your margin there…does that mean you only have to eat like 9.86 of the 10 toes?
456 – I waffled on that one, so I never bet the sock lunch. Paul might need some dancing shoes and banjo accompaniment.
(455) Those two…I am laughing it was like they were setting up a grand opening or something…
and now there store is empty – there is no one posting on the forums but Charles and DH are online waiting to welcome their new customers or pounce on them.
Stopped back by for a last minute – Maggie, had a feeling you’d be wondering – give it probably til Wed., since our mail has to go through our records division, get sorted, sent out, etc. and I’m pretty sure it was late Fri. afternoon it was probably put in the out box. My guess is it went to the post office mon.
(457) Think about this…if it really is Pac and he managed to maintain himself all night with minimal outbursts – that my friend is very twisted.
And yes I think Paul’s good nature was taken advantage of tonight and he was played hard. However it was very funny when he posted the kaboom…that was getting pretty intense at that point.
459 – Great, thanks Det Mike! For that and for everything here when you stop by.
[448] & [449] … thanks! seems so darn obvious,, now!!
an aside…… my exposure to and my limited particpation in this unfolding saga has been an amazing experience for me. I, like Lisa, find fascination with the truth my main driving interest. That and life and love in action. It’s all right here.
Virtual, real…. Is virtual real?
458 – That’s kind of a funny/sad visual.
460 – Yes, that was pretty good! I was, of course, not here live and trying desperately to catch up (only gone a few hours but there were a ton of posts), but I had to chuckle.
To Calm Guy – while checking out the narrative, I did find one of the photos that you mentioned not seeing with the “coast” spray painted. From just the small thumbnail it was hard to see, but if you open the link, it should be more clear:
(462) Hi Kip,
Virtual is something that exists in cyberspace (i.e. computer but most commonly related to the Internet)
So Joe Duck’s is virtual because it is exists in the ether of the net.
However, it is very much real and where the two worlds collide (virtual and real world (rw) or real life (rl, 3d)) is where things get interesting.
Kip if you want to directly email any questions regarding this stuff I will be more than happy to answer them as best as I can.
glennforum at yahoo.
465 – Glenn, is it late, or did that sound kind of deep?
(466) A well – now that is a deep thought!
[465] thanx Glenn
(468) Kip if you really want to see how far it goes you should research Project Entropia and Second Life. You can actually have a career in the virtual world and convert your virtual currency back to real hard cash!
Shave my head huh, maybe I will borrow a pair from my 9 yr old!
🙂
Boy, I bet someone like me would be a nightmare for LE… We did disneyland in Nov, then Christmas, then trip to little sis’s, I have 4 debt cards and 3 cc, all of which were used for my trip to N. Washington, since they were all so close to being maxed, I chuckled everytime I heard you all talking about most people only using 1 cc for travel……
Just a stay at home mom juggling…. And maybe tomorow a college student…. (taking my first college class in 20+ years and I am scared to death!)
Wow, I go out for the evening and we have all these excellent and new folks show up to shed light on the big picture!
Glenn if you are still up at 4am EST you are a certifiable …. computer guy.
😀 ATTENTION 😀
To navigate the pages use “Kim Story” at the top of every blog page. Then use Control F to search each page for comments. This format has worked very well and many have asked to keep it like this, so I have no plans to move to a forum style environment.
Welcome back Joe-Boy, just in time to say goodnight! 😉
Laurie
Just a very quick note – have been trying to keep up the last two days, quick short checks but not time for writing & am not compeltely caught up yet as tonight as been so active/amazing.
First I want to say, Madeleine, am very pleased to hear your husband is going to be OK. I’m getting that darn book!! (I need to read a book, I put it off as I get so consumed)
Mapper, I’m with you Wilson/Pac = same. Also, if any of my comments are used from here in any way, my permission must be asked first. I do NOT trust this site that is going up and I feel the efforts for posting here are simply to farm for their site, period. That’s why Pac a.k.a. Wilson is being civil. I post on this blog out of choice, as I do NOT post on other blogs by choice. Therefore, I choose where my words and thoughts are posted and don’t want them posted anywhere else by anyone whose intentions are very questionable to me. I mean this SERIOUSLY.
Eric, John, and the other noteworthies who have posted here tonight, thank you so much. I admire each and every one of you.
John, you should not feel bad. You should feel proud. No problem with your charging CNN, take the money and do what you wish. I have NO problem there.
Katie’s dad, nor do I have a problem with your letting CNN pay for night. Neither of you have milked the story, and THAT tells the take right there, as Katie has not. True class acts, each and every one. And your grandaughters are adorable. And full of themselves, as they should be, I’ll bet!
Det. Mike, thank you again.
Now, I’m going to say something I will probably get flamed for, but after an incident tonight, my initial feeling, which I have never spoken of, was reinforced. When RRR3 first posted on here, and then JoSar, I felt very strongly there were here to defend and do damage control for Sara R.
I think it was RRR3 who first stated she had to speak out to defend a friend and much later said she only came on the blog to learn? I may not have the exactly right, but I do remember my thoughts during certain postings. The attack against John was uncalled for here. But as I said I’ve not finished catching up. But that one really burnt me.
I have no problem with them defending their friend and the reason they first came to why they stay may have changed and that’s acceptable and fine. But I’ve read numerous article quoting John and I have never ONCE run into him changing his story EVER.
Mapper, I know having Eric here is just thrilling you and that makes me laugh, in a good way.
Bamadad-the friend who grew up in WV, right? Yes, I’m very familiar with the Charleston area, but if you’ve only been around this area of the state, you’ve not seen anything till you get to the southern part of the states in the coal fields, where I grew up. Mountain, a string of houses, a road, a railroad track, and river and the in your face another mountain. It made me feel smothered as a child, I felt I couldn’t breathe because I couldn’t see much sky. Anyway, I am able to breathe now.
And lastly and by far not leastly,
Thank you JOE DUCK.
I hate to say it, but their site looks like it may be trying to get credit for ideas from here. Attributions are lacking For a so-called newsman to report something without proper attribution speaks volumes. If I’ve overlooked them, it is likely others have also. Looks like they’re going to try to profit from this site.
The narrative is no better than anyone elses speculations, so I don’t see anything wrong with that. I stopped looking after that.
I’ve lost track …
can anyone tell me when the next official report is due to be released?
(476) I believe on Jan 5th they said it would be 1 more week which I guess is this Friday.
(474) Hi Frances. I think John James called Sara R. a liar directly in a post here and then during an exchange with JoCoSAR said he had heard secondhand that Sara R. was saying things behind John James’s back. To me that is a pretty strong response about someone especially on secondhand information.
It looks like Sara R. and John James will speak on the phone and clear the air.
I have no idea why RRR responded the way she did – I guess she is pretty close to Sara R..
I also think RRR and JoCoSAR just came here to speak their mind just like Brian Anderson and others. It must be frustrating for all of them to sit back and read some of things people are saying and not be able to respond and as their silence continues perceptions and accusations are weaved into one-sided facts.
I think when they are free to speak we are going to get a very different side of things. Phil I think eluded to that with his point about who makes the decisions to call off the search and that Sara R. was NOT in fact the IC here and if she did relay something to Brian Powers it was not her decision but she was passing along the decision of the IC.
As for my questions to John James I am following a list of questions I have for several for several of the figures in this story. What really piqued my interest is when John James made the statement that the media pretty much go it right but the GR report got it wrong. I think the majority of people here truly believe the media got it wrong especially the people on the ground and other LE. That speaks to finding motive for someone making a statement that so many others disagree with.
Understand my goal here is to understand and understanding through the truth will allow all of us to paint a complete picture of what and why.
I think it is absurd and ridiculous that a Charles Wilson can create a narrative and promote it from here that basically convicts Sara R. of being negligent. She hasn’t even had an opportunity to speak her mind. Charles and DH’s world you are guilty and be damned if you can prove yourself innocent.
Don’t even get me going about their comments about James and Kati Kim they are totally out-of-bounds.
Joe
Can you add any clarity to whether Charles Wilson is/is not actually PacNWer thru your registration records? Even if you say it cannot be confirmed one way or the other, that would be something. Maybe you answered this already, but I missed it. This is my first time on a blog, so not sure how the paper trail works.
Despite the unusual posting of Charles Wilson on page one at 399 followed by PacNWer at 400– maybe he registered twice and played an alter ego game. I hope not.
Glenn,
wow you are energy incarnate.
I have missed the thread linking Charles with the Mail Tribune site and with Djdee, can you clear it up or should I do homework? Comments at 431, 434,439. I guess I am asking where is Djdee’s site? Who is Djdee, is she the DH from this blog?
I too am getting a queasy feeling about all this.
Frances, thanks for the reply.
Lisa thanks for the comfort on my upcoming dental appt.
Good morning all.
379 – Phil, thank you for this information. I think most of us here respect Sara Rubrecht and are inclined to agree with you that a rush to judgement is not advisable. Shame on anyone who would send her “hate mail”. As if her job is not hard enough. Whatever future findings may be, I’m glad that she seems to have the support of her team and friends.
380 – Madeleine…..”Joe, Duck!”…..too, funny!
389 – Mapper, you’ve nailed it! I, too, have followed the diatribe of both parties in question, and have come to believe they have just changed their tactics to get their “judgements” viewed.
399 – Thank you Glenn. That gave me my morning laugh!
404 – Det. Mike, great post. As always you are very informative.
432 – “Anyway, folks, come see what we have to say. You’re not going to hear nearly as much from me from here on our.” Assuming you meant “out”, somehow I doubt that.
Have to get down to work now. Everyone have a good day.
Well this morning I called to volunteer for what seemed like a possible SAR mission in a park. The TV reported the lost person in a 20 second “breaking news” segment. I called the non-emergency police number, but the police said the area where the individual was lost was fairly small and it might be a criminal matter. So they didn’t need help. So there’s a tiny, baby-step start.
Frankly I am much closer to doing stuff like this, than spend time grinding up the “truth” here. That is some kind of water torture, when folks can’t respond.
John James:
Take John James, he comes here and tells his story. Good, he is welcomed. He feels bad for not doing more.
John, if you look at it, I could send $30 to some accredited outfit in Africa instead of spending it on myself or my grandkids and probably innoculate 30 kids and save one of their lives– so we do what we can and put these thoughts aside.
You and your family painted directions on the road surface, complained to officials about it and helped redirect stranded travelers. That sounds like good work to me, plus you left ample supplies (bedding, blankets, food, etc.) in your lodge if somebody got in a jam up there in winter. Thanks.
Barnadad – (480)
Good morning – looks like we need more of your awards today!! See post 33 on this page for the connections – I don’t think I can comment civilly about it right now.
Everyone else – good morning, looks like things entered the twilight zone around here last night!
I would like to make one more comment in light of last night’s very heated exchanges. Glenn, you talk about virtual vs. real life. I have to tell you all, that for the most part, your involvement with this story has been purely virtual. I think that what you are doing here is fantastic. However, for some of us, this is real life. There are real careers and reputations at stake. Some of us have worked tirelessly for years trying to make a difference. To have one single incident be the cause of career ending accusations is so very sad. I don’t think that I need to point out that up to this point, they are still only non-confirmed accusations.
This is a small town. I know for me, I have lived here my entire life (with only brief stays elsewhere). I went to elementary school through high school here. Everybody is related somehow. This is a great place to live. Small town has it’s benefits. When somebody is talked about, they find out. Period. There are no secrets in a small town like this. If there is a misunderstanding with myself and John James, that needs to be repaired. We will undoubtedly have to work together in the future and something like this cannot go undiscussed (sorry if that’s not a real word, more coffee, more sleep). I vow to call him personally and clear up any miscommunications between the two of us.
What I want for you to try to understand for just a moment while you are sitting at your computer far away from our real lives here, perhaps even in another state, is that we (those that were involved in this search), are stuck in the vortex of this search. It’s like time has been suspended, yet we still have our “normal” lives to try to live. I for one am having a very difficult time trying to find any sort of normalcy. Some of us have chosen to read along with this group even though we cannot speak. For me, it is my only guage on how others may be responding to information in reports, articles, etc.
I guess my point is, is that for some of you, this may be the only place that you are involved in search conversation. When you go to work, others aren’t talking about it anymore, you have some “Kim down time.” For some of us here, it just doesn’t stop (I know for me anyway). There is still paperwork to be completed, reports to be written and volunteers who still want to vent about it because that’s what the CISD counselor told them to do. We have all had to be each other’s support system, because we are family here in SAR. We lean on each other, we cry together. So, when we come home at night and read some critical statements or accusations from people who may only have limited information, I can guarantee that emotions are going to run high! It doesn’t surprise me that you have heard very emotional outbursts from some of us. Just please, I caution you when you judge us based on those outbursts…we are still very much living this horrific event (the search was bad enough, but the events with the media afterwards were even worse!).
Someone said to me yesterday that I was suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder….I am telling you what…this isn’t POST yet! I am still fresh in it! This is just Traumatic Stress Disorder, period!
I believe that I started into this event with somewhat of a personality disorder..I am a people pleaser. I take everything to heart. I suffer greatly when I think that somebody somewhere doesn’t like me. Perhaps those who know me well can speak to that once we are all able. I am honest to a fault. If someone asks me a question, I answer it. I do not typically stop to evaluate the political implications of an honest answer. For that, I have made a mistake here. Valuable lessons learned.
I have also learned the amazing affect of speculation. What a horrible thing that has turned out to be! I for one will make a very honest effort to limit my personal judgement based on what I read in the newspaper or see on tv.
When trying to explain my “addiction” to this site to others, it is hard to explain why I don’t just walk away from it. Lose the link forever. Well, I guess at this moment, I can’t really explain that to them. I am here, if only in the “read only” mode for now.
I hesitate to attempt to answer questions on this forum after our report is released. I am not sure that the questions will ever end. I have a feeling just by watching questioning here over the past month, that there will be so much hair splitting going on. I don’t think that there will ever be an end to questions. There may be questions that we will never be able to answer for you. No matter how hard we try. There are some of you who I have promised to talk to afterwards. I believe that questions by you will be asked for the right reasons…to make things better. To find or create better solutions. I will do my best in that regard. What I don’t want to do, is find myself wrapped up in detailed, personal questions only to defend someone. It would be too easy to give emotional, defensive responses, which don’t solve any problems at all. So, I haven’t decided yet how to handle the questioning yet, but I have several days to figure it out still.
Thank you to those of you who have managed to suffer through all of this and manage to keep an open mind. I know that it is extremely difficult with the limited information that you have. I think that it will be amazing when the OSSA report is finally released. One thing to point out is that in past searches, normal searches, when we have done an after action review, it has been noted that our documentation process needed to be improved. The details in this report will hopefully prove that we take recommendations from our AAR’s seriously and improve upon them. If we hadn’t improved that process before now, compiling the data about to be released would be near impossible! I just thought that was important to point out.
Ok, so now that I have (I hesitate to say vomitted) spilled more nonsense here this morning, I will sink back to my “read-only” mode. I must get to work and try to carry on.
484-the above post would be from jocosar…sorry
New Oregonian article refuting media air traffic allegations by Spencer Kim, link in a moment. Very interesting, was this issue brought up, as one poster speculated, to distract from another more relevant issue?
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/116831134559880.xml&coll=7
Here is the link!
On a side note, Spencer Kim’s Washington Post editorial ran in todays Opinion page in the Boregonian.
(480) Good morning Bamadad…I have been writing software and building companies for over 25 years both disciplines require a minimum of sleep! At this point I am just used to it. Occasionally I really do love to sleep in.
As for the Pac connection…either Charles Wilson is Pac or directly connected to him. My speculation on it is that Pac got himeself banned over at MT and he had to re-invent himself and instead of arguing to distract this time he had a mission and that mission was to take advantage of Joe’s hospitality and promote their new site. Since they keep getting banned at blogs they have changed their strategy.
The coincidences are just too many and timing is just too perfect.
Also IMO they are looking to profit from this.
In the spirit of the principles of SAR I do not think Charles Wilson, DH or Pac demonstrate any of the qualities that SAR represents and therefore cannot possibly deliver on any promises to improve SAR.
JoCoSAR,
Thank you for the note. I can’t begin to imagine the difficulties for everyone that was closely involved. This was traumatic event, and as you said – more trauma added on everyday.
While I have really learned a lot myself from this site, the atmosphere often goes beyond civil and I think can be counterproductive. I fully support what I believe is the primary agenda of many whom I consider the “Core” posters, and I’m very anxious to see what Glenn and Tara and team are working on. For me wading through all the other agendas is getting to be a little out there – or maybe I just need more coffee and patience today.
Glenn – I’ve hopped over to your site and if that’s a picture of you then you look WAY too young to have been working for 25 years (unless you started when you were 5!) 🙂
(484) Thanks for the thoughtful post JoCoSAR. Appreciate what you are going through and we are all looking forward to the OSSA report.
One more note…I am tired of talking about myself as a third person. Most of you have figured it out, and I am in no way doubting your intelligence…I am Sara R.
Since I know that this will be my last post until the report comes out, I thought it was only fair to be the one that “outed” myself! There, that feels better. Thank you.
(491) Thanks Angela! You should see my dad! 🙂 We are very fortunate to age gracefully but I assure you I have been at this for many many years!
PS – Literally up until a few agos I have always battled he must be too young to be doing all of this.
(493) WOW…to use Paul’s terminology…
Kaboom!
(491) and that photo was taken in 2003…FYI. 🙂
Glenn – not doubting you a bit – your experience shows in your posts. Just amazed when you said 25 years! I’ll bet in the circles it sounds like you’ve been running in that it has been a literal issue for you – I’ll bet you get called the ‘kid’ a lot 🙂
JoCoSar/Sara R. ,,,
Yes, We pretty much knew right from the start based on the tenor of your posts, however, your posts are very much appreciated by us and we do hope that you will continue to post whenever you feel moved to clarify the record.
I never addressed anything to you as ‘SaraR’ and I will continue to refer to you as JoCoSar. I’ve posted before about the differences between those who post from the comfort of their computer stations and those who are out there in the cold and damp taking far more effective action than anyone in their living room is. The mistakes some posters make are referred to as typos. Typos will no more hurt the missing person than perfect keyboarding skills will help the missing person.
Do not think that any of us are unappreciative of the difference between those who slosh through the cold and damp and those who merely post about the SAR missions.
Fools Gold – Well Said!
JoCoSAR (490) Speaking of typos! I did not mean the second paragraph to be aimed at you and in second reading realize the appearance. I was venting my frustration in reading last nights posts and the whole other site agenda etc.
Just wanted to set the record straight – now time for more coffee! (and patience 🙂 )
Jocosar,
I will be waiting for your call or if you like I can call you. We both know how to contact each other.
I feel we both need some healing and to explain things more thoroughly.
I look forward to the opportunity.
John
495 – Hadn’t you surmised her identity already, Glenn? I thought most of us had.
484 – Sara I don’t think any of us can comprehend the pressures and emotions of those involved in the Kim Family search, let alone the aftermath. I for one feel that no explanations are required to the general public, only the officials in charge. Having said that, I appreciate the efforts of so many who have come to Joe’s blog and try to facilitate an understanding of SAR in general, and as it relates to this specific case. Any and all improvements or lessons learned can only be for the best.
Take care of yourself, and please know that I mean that in the best sense. Hopefully there will come a time when all interested parties can heal from this tragedy.
(502) Who me…figure anything out? I just sit here in the dark just typing…LOL.
Yes I had my hunch. 🙂
503 – Well said, Adirondacker.
(501) John that is thoughtful post. I hope that they two of you can clear the air – very important I think.
JoCoSAR and John
I’m over 1000 miles away. I understand you both seem to be good people with similiar goals. Sara, I had thought it was you as well, and was happy to talk with you previously. Last night was the first we have seen of John and I just wanted to thank him for his part as well. From where I sit you both seem like great people. I said something last night, that I hope you didn’t take the wrong way Sara, I thank John for what he did and asked him to please not beat himself up over this, as I can clearly see his feelings are genuine, as I see your feelings are genuine. It sounds like a misunderstanding to me and….we all know that happens all the time. I didn’t mean to suggest you deliberatley ignored John when he mentioned the roads to you.
Now, from where I sit THAT is about as much as I want to say on that subject as i feel it really doesn’t concern me. Just that you should know most people on the outside are not worried about such details.
Now, I didn’t even read everything carefully, you all said to each other, so if I missed the whole point, sorry. But that should tell you something!
From today’s article in the Oregonian…
Separately Monday, state Rep. John Lim, R-Gresham, introduced legislation inspired by the Kim search and the search for three climbers lost on Mount Hood. The lawmaker wants to create a state fund to help pay liability insurance and workers’ compensation so more people can volunteer for rescues, stiffen penalties for tampering with signs marking a closed road, allow families access to credit card and phone records in emergencies and require climbers on Mount Hood to carry locator beacons.
source:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/116831134559880.xml&coll=7
hi, all. just checking in. Jocosar, thank you for taking the time and effort on that post. I think one of the great benefits from this site is the collaboration of opinions from outsiders, professionals, volunteers and family in an effort to promote critical thinking and positive change or perhaps a more supportive role from us, in the future, if needed. I believe this to be a very unique group that has the aim of being helpful and supportive. (for the most part) 🙂 I for one, am very thankful to all who helped save kati and her babies. thank you.
Jocossar- as you can see, we all appreciate you. It’s the gag order that is making this worse than it needs to be. Though a gag order is a typical government response, in this day and age (internet) it just doesn’t work like it used to. I really hope it will be lifted soon. Based on what I have learned so far, I think you can feel good about what you have done. Don’t let the people like PaC. Wilson get you down.
498/Fool’s Gold – well said.
484/JoCoSar: Thank you for your heartfelt, emotional post.
We truly cannot comprehend what you are going through and I hope you know you have the support of most who post on this forum. We all anxiously await the OSSA report. Speaking for myself, I suspect it will answer many questions and we will find that the truth – as it often does – lies somewhere in the middle of the many oppossing opinions expressed here.
Two things you said I want to comment on:
“So much hair splitting going on…” – hit home for me. I think we a have all – self included – at times analyzed this to a level of detail that some would classify as overkill. In my line of work, there is a term for those who never reach conclusions because they are so busy arguing fine points – analysis paralysis. I remain hopeful that we will refocus after the report on the larger, more actionable issues and dispense with some of the minutia.
“The amazing affect of speculation…what a horrible thing that has turned out to be.” It doesn’t require elaboration, the comment stands on its merits. People (again self included)- have judged, re-judged, made sweeping generalizations, resorted to name calling, reached unfounded or unsupported conclusions, the list goes on and on. I think we could all benefit from, as you say, limiting our personal judgements going forward (to the degree that we can).
Having now said all that, I still think this is the best, by far, forum around on this incident. While I have lurked other places, this is the only place I have posted. Our sock difference of opinion notwithstanding, I cannot post on a forum where editorial control is wielded by those have an obvious bias.
Yes, critical thinking and not personal allegiances/alliances is what is most important to me as well. Of course people who feel such allegiances/alliances may take offense. But no offense it intended. I don’t feel that justice will be done to James Kim, or that lessons that can be learned will really be learned, if they are glossed over.
478- Hi! glenn – Speaking of over, I know it seems mostly ‘over’ now, but I think it is very important to clear the record. John James called Sara R a liar not only because he had heard that she was saying a lot of things behind his back, but primarily and directly because he read her post(s) here where she said he had been changing his story. Very important!
I also find your questions about him and his relations with the media really surprising and out there for you. And I am beginning to think you really do need more sleep!
Because to me, critical thinking is what is most important, I am not one to agree that the media got it All oh so wrong. I really do not work for the Oregonian, and I don’t know anyone who does. But I am sure that they have almost if not all, of the direct quotes they used on tape. [It sure would be nice if we could get any of them here to verify that! Santa? Is that possible?]
I think they may have slanted some of the material slightly to point toward inefficiency and inadequacy in the search efforts. But they also do the highest level of investigative reporting, and they have really broken some very big important stories, even national stories. [I saw a program on investigative reporters in the US on a public television documentary program and they were included.)
It seems to me that what is really behind a lot of the complaints about the Oregonian articles is that people didn’t like the exposure and the way the articles made them look. I’m sure they wouldn’t be complaining if the article had heralded them as heroes, no matter what other minor inaccuracies or portrayals there might have been.
That is not to say I don’t think the media may have gotten some things wrong. I really just don’t think, they got it as wrong as some people here seem to believe at this time. It’s like they’ve become the safest place to place blame on in this story.
What if they come here, and explain their side, and have the proof they have of what they said. And you can tell that they’re good people, and then you say “Hey now that you’re here and you’ve explained yourself, and we’ve heard your side, we realize we were wrong to say all those things we said, and once again, we see the bigger picture now.”
Because they are media, I don’t know if there are legal reasons why they couldn’t come here, or how many questions they could answer. But it would be interesting! 🙂
Gayle at 508, I was just ready to post that.
That legislation is a good start. Wow, wouldn’t it be great to know if Rep Gresham or his staff ever visited this site.
I will say that the CascadeClimbers.com , whose site I followed during the Mt.Hood search has many, many members who oppose the personal locator beacons. It is an extra expense, extra weight, and rarely needed to find someone on the mountain. It will be interesting to hear the position of the Mountain SAR rescue folks on that portion. So maybe the legislation will be altered as to time, place and skill for the PLBs or eliminated.
These experienced climbers are like the explorers and astronauts of our age. I am talking about the real devoted ones who take on rock faces and aided climbs from Rainer to Denali.
off the the dentist ::groan:: later, all.
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 29, 2006:
”
I just a few days ago realized that the 34-8-36 road is actually the same as the Bear Camp Road off of Galice Creek.
”
I think this shows just how confusing the roads and naming conventions must be up there.
(512) Lisa, the comment John James referenced from JoCoSAR she had also previously corrected a little further down from her original post. She made it clear back then it was a mistake in her post – she was most definitely supporting him and she cleared it up again last night. For some reason nobody still wants to point that out.
problem with non-threaded posts is you can miss corrections buried within the thread.
So based on what I knew he said that only from second-hand information and John even said that.
I am sure both John and Sara will clear the air with each other.
Important to note that John James never directly talked to Sara R. while out on the road. John James talked to the Deputy that was with Sara R.. John could have easily cleared that up last night but chose not to.
Just to clear the record.
(511) Paul so now that you have a chance to see Charles Wilson’s manifesto…what do you think now?
My thought is that Brenda H., Pac, DH and few others are all together because they either got themselves banned from other blogs or grew tired of their arguments falling on deaf ears. Their collective activities have all but ceased anywhere else now.
(508) Good find Gayle that could be a step in the right direction.
One thought I keep having is that there will be some sort of swing back to far and they will really lock down those roads. I hope a balanced approach is applied so that people with know how and local experience can still enjoy those areas.
glenn (#516), please let *them* post the facts. JoCoSARa herself posted this: “The comment that I heard that Sara made to him that he thought was curt, was “Be careful, I would not want to have to come and look for you two up here as well.” ”
In other words, she herself posted here that she herself made a comment to him. Yet you say “John James never directly talked to Sara R.”. Please, seriously, stop posting your version of facts, and leave that to the people that have the facts.
I’ve you’ve read or been told a direct contradiction to this, then please note it as such, not as a fact.
I’m just sayin’.
“If you’ve read”, not “I’ve you’ve read” in #519. Sorry.
Just about ot the door, checking one more time, am I hooked or what?
518 – Did i read something wrong last tnight in regard to John James’s statement about who he talked with about the tracks?
112 – “Sara R. and the Deputy with her said “they had it handled” so we left.”
157 – “I will testify under oath as to my converstion with the deputy and Sara R.”
It seemed to me that he stated he spoke with both people, not just the deputy.
No judgements, just clarifying, to attempting to.
521 – “or” attempting to.
516- Glenn
Well, I’ll have to go back and look at all of that,
but just the other day in one of your posts, you said that JoCoSAR had said that John James had been changing his story, so you were using that information in that way, ‘uncorrected’.
As far as I can tell, John James was talking to both Sara R and the deputy at the same time. Maybe he was closer in position to the deputy, but she was there…
He said he would easily and readily take a lie detector test. He has nothing to hide. It will be interesting to see if Sara R would be willing to take a lie detector test after the investigation.
Paul re 511: “I cannot post on a forum where editorial control is wielded by those have an obvious bias.” – Paul
Do you not think that exists here? Actually, one of our main goals is to avoid exercising any of our biases (which everyone has)in the forum. It is not important to me if you go there or not. I would venture to say that if you do post over there, that you will not be attacked for your opinion by an arrogant core group. You will also not be the subject of endless malicious commentary when people think you are not reading. Our goal is not to do battle with this forum, but cooexist in a complementary and constructive atmosphere, all moving toward positive results in our own nitch, encouraging freedom of speech and community as fellow citizens.
Rodney – What Sara said a few thousand posts ago obviously wasn’t meant for people to dissect every word as if it was scripture or something.
(519) Please see post (260) from JoCoSAR…exactly what did I get wrong? Guess you missed the “facts” spoken directly from JoCoSAR.
(524) I can’t believe you can say that. Your analysis and conclusions section of your narrative is one of the most arrogant pieces I have ever read.
525- I think Rodney has had very good points all along.
Obviously, what people say is important.
re524: Yes, Glenn, I think I know by now what your opinion is on the subject.
Hmm…just want to throw this out there once more. Dh (dee) you were only censored when you gave JoCo’s identity away. And only ONE person has been asked to not comment here (at least that is my understanding and I believe Joe has posted this above).
And if anyone questions abusiveness all they have to do is look back at his posts or on the MT forum.
Joe has been extremely tolerant, especially to those who have had the nerve to bash kati and james right in front of their own family members. (if it were my forum you would have been banned).
[516] .. “John could have easily cleared that up last night but chose not to.”
Glenn, I wished you’d chosen “did not” rather than chose not..
Glenn: I am not sure who told you Pac had been banned at MT, but he is still there, post 1153 @ 10:53 last night….not that that proves anything either way.
(531) Thanks Kip…yes I need some sleep. 🙂
At least we will know the more complete set of offical search facts when the OSSA report is completed. And I’m sure that will be very interesting.
Okay, thanks glenn (#526), so JoCoSARa has posted “The comment that I heard that Sara made to him. . .” and she has also posted “it was not Sara R. that you had a conversation with . . . she was quiet.”. So she clearly has contradicted herself. NOTE: This is not really a big deal, as I’m sure those posts can be interpreted to make sense with each other.
You posted “Important to note that John James never directly talked to Sara R.”. Your statement only takes into account her latest quote. I’m pointing out her earlier one.
JoCoSAR,
Thank you for your post. I can appreciate the frustration being under a gag order creates. Nor did I have a problem with defending up for yourself, it was just the attack on John about the CNN money that I felt was out of line. But I also know that emotions can & do run high on here sometimes and from time to time have lashed out myself. Thank you for ‘outting’ yourself.
As I stated here many eons ago, I also grew up in a small town and fully appreciate and understand the dynamics there.
I do hope you and John do get together and work things out. I have seen a misunderstanding split a small town when instead the incident itself should bring a small town together. I have also seen people in a small town who have a problem with each other carry it on forever through others and never sit down face to face. Personally, for me the dynamics of a small town is what caused me to leave as soon as I could. Now that I am older and in my present circumstanes, there are many, many times I long for that small town. I know there would be a least a dozen people to help me with anything I needed on a moments notice and refuse any payment, I know there would be people there for me who care. I also understand that sometimes in a small town, when higher ups make mistakes, to protect themselves, often they will let the lower guy be the fall guy. I am NOT saying that is what’s happening. At this point, I’m trying hard to reserve judgement and there is just too much information still unanswered. And as you said, there are some quesions which are NEVER going to be able to answered. And you are in the thick of it and I am just sitting here at my computer screen.
You want to know honestly what my first thought was? Oh Geesh, you know where to find each other, don’t avoid each other, just face each other & settle. My father was a big fish in a little sea, no he was not involved in politics, is too complicated to explain, and unfortunately, I have seen him fan many a flame and insist many take sides in a dispute. I have seen him talk about people behind their back yet refuse to face them and sort an issue out. I hate to see anyone fall into the negative side of the small town dynamic, so you guys, if I were there, I’d call each one of you and invite you to my house, put on a large pot of Dutch Brothers, and go in my bedroom, turn my TV up loud and let you sort it out. Pull together, not apart, OK?
Also, glenn (#516), you said “the comment John James referenced from JoCoSAR she had also previously corrected a little further down from her original post. She made it clear back then it was a mistake in her post”.
Please provide a page and post number for where she “corrected” it and “made it clear back then”.
Below is the last half of post #887 on page 2. Perhaps you’re talking about the sentences that followed in the same post? I have read the rest of her posts on page 2, and I didn’t see any correction or clarification a “little further down”. But I might have missed it. I’m just looking for the facts. That’s all.
Page 2 #887, second half: “John James has changed his story many times. Not really relevant. The comment that I heard that Sara made to him that he thought was curt, was “Be careful, I would not want to have to come and look for you two up here as well.” Regardless of that particular conversation, whether he searched “his road” or not, we know now that the car was found 6.37 miles past where he would have driven anyway. Hence the reason that we cannot clear a road completely until it is driven to the end of the road by one of our own searchers and marked off on a map. We were in the process of doing just that. I would not put any blame on Mr. James regardless of what was said that day or even if he had told someone that he had searched to his lodge. I personally dont think that anyone deserves any blame of any kind. I think that we can learn from this lesson and move on as better people for the next time…there will be a next time, undoubtedly.”
Frances…how is that dutch brothers anyway!?
Finally, just in case, I’m not out to get *anybody*. Last night I directed John James to comments that had been posted on this thread, just to get his take. He responded.
Since then, some posts have questioned what the various posts were about, and what they contained. I’m just trying to make sure I didn’t miss something. At all times, I’m trying only to refer to actual posts and actual quotes from posts on this comment thread. Certainly with 7000 posts, I might have missed a lot.
Thanks and sorry.
538 mapper A+!
399 – Glenn, you found the video!! I had missed the post earlier. That is exactly the one I was thinking about when using the term to describe what Joe does. Only in my mind, the critters go off in all different directions, like we do.
Dee,
I just read your site. Why are you and Charles Wilson anonymous? When I hit “About Us” it is just some generalized, “We are Westerners. ….”
Your site would have much more credibility if you posted your bio’s and gave actual contact information. Charles said here he was a long time journalist but there is no mention of that on your site.
Frankly, I think without this information, your site will just wither among millions of blogs/ single event forums. You could actually accomplish something with more full disclosure.
Also can you confirm that Charles Wilson is not PacNWer? I think that is only fair to the readers on your forum.
If PacNWer had a conversion, then I would like to hear that.
Thanks.
524/Dee: Mapper said it better than I could.
Attacking different opinions to excess is counterproductive. I agree. I also agree this forum has been guilty of that at times….but it pales hugely in comparison to what Pac and others do over at M.T.
I don’t think people jumped on Brenda W for her opinion so much as she kept repeating it over and over and over. She was never, however, censored or banned to the best of my knowledge. I think her theory is very interesting. I look forward to the sheriff’s report shedding more light on it.
People took exception to your comments because they seemed inconsistent and very contradictory to posts you were making at the same time over on M.T., your apology to Kati’s dad being the most glaring example versus what you wrote over on M.T. a short time later.
I commend your goal to avoid exercising any of your biases on your new site, but I think it has bias nonetheless. You think JD has bias, you’re probably right, but Joe has censored only one poster, ever, that I am aware of, and he has made it his stated objective to do as little of that as possible. He has also, repeatedly, taken people to task for the equivalent of shouting people down. I commend his site and his efforts.
JoCoSAR
I want you to know that your honest and sincere post this morning was deeply touching to me. I had to get up and walk away from my computer and get myself together. I wish I could just come up there and give you a big hug.
I haven’t followed this closely enough to know who is who, but I did get a little “Aha!” feeling as I read your words. I have been mostly interested in getting the gist, and facts, as best we can, of the story. I am a baby blogger mostly motivated by wanting to know how it was for the people involved. Your courage in revealing your struggles, frustrations and real hurts meant a lot to me.
Please know that many of us who are following this story, both in the media and through various forums (this being the most addicting, thought-provoking and heart wrenching), are keeping an open mind and heart. I would venture to say this is true for all, even the more analytical of this blog bunch, and those who have had emotional outbursts, anger, tears—things that cause us to get up and walk away from our computers for a while. We are each getting something valuable out of this exchange and it is touching lives. Else, why would we all still be here?
I am glad that you have, and you have taken, the opportunity to be yourself here as much as you have. In this case, one of the benefits of this virtual world is that we can reach out (yes, positive and negative) and touch in this way in real time.
I look forward to future posts from you and John James and trust you will come to a better understanding after you talk.
RodneyG thanks for your posts.
I have tried to stay away from the “He said, she said”.
As I said much earlier, at the end of this whole process (Task Force, legislation), I hope if I ever get lost, it is in your neck of the woods. Sort of like NYC is now one of the safest cities in America.
536/Frances: I really enjoy and appreciate your insights into the dynamics of small town relationships…have been around a few small towns in my life and find them spot-on.
(535) Rodney…I will get back to you my businesses are requiring a lot of my attention today. If you also want to email me I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.
One of the issues of a non-threaded forum is that I have had to build an external database to track the information and all of the “facts” and I definitely have it cross-referenced and some of the information may have come from external sources – I do receive a fair amount of email on the topic sometimes as we all have seen it is near impossible to keep all of the events, time they happened, who said what-where straight. Information overload.
You and I have the same goal – get the facts and get them straightened out.
536 # They define the term ‘double edged sword”
D.H.’s name, address, phone, and e-mail can be obtained from a simple whois search on kimtragedy.info. Not that anyone cares. Unless she makes it private before you do your search.
Dee or “charles”
If you’ll clear up the charles/pac identity, we might get to see some sock eatin’ or a singing/dancing combo. wouldnt that be fun??? Although I fully want it to be proven that Charles is pac b/c I believe it so, a tiny part of me wants to see a picture or mapper eatin’ a sock 🙂 I know I know, Id have to eat one too, but I didnt promise pictures 🙂
Tara,
I’d make it look tres chic, it would become all the rage.
But I still dont think we have any trustworthy sources…but dare I say…Dee has a history of spilling the beans….
Must go for now, get the things done which must be done to sustain a life, especially so I can hopefully have the time to be on here in the evening when things tend to happen!!
550- Part of me wanted to say that last night! I’m really tempted to see a mapper sock eating picture! 🙂 It almost sounds irresistible!
Good Afternoon folks!
Okay I don’t mean to bring that other site over here but the people here seem to know the ins and outs better than most.
The Associated Press reported that, in interviews with authorities after her rescue, Mrs. Kim described pausing at the intersection, looking up Bear Camp Road and seeing a fourth sign warning that “Road May Be Blocked by Snowdrifts 6 Miles Ahead.” — KimTragedy.com
Cite please! Link please!
554/RRR – Wecome back !…we’ve missed you. Things are quite a bit calmer here this morning.
Well that is good
They liked my “Kaboom” when JoCo got on last night…it’s been referenced several times.
Yes, it is good.
Her long post this morning touched many of us.
I also wanted to say that another way of saying critical thinking is objective thinking. It’s just meant to thoroughly take all sides into consideration, and not be biased, but to understand all of the cause/effect relationships involved, for constructive purposes.
559- Yeah well she hit quiet a few nails on the head in that posting
It seems that Sara R may be taking this too personally, and making this too personal.
The big picture is that these are investigations and questions about an SAR case where she had a role. Her role is being looked into, but so is everyone elses.
We will see the results of the investigation when the OSSA Report comes out. And then she will be able to speak more freely about her experience.
She knows that her work, like all LE/SAR work, involves responsibilities that can potentially affect whether people
live or die, and such investigations can be commonplace when lives are lost.
I think that this has been hard and a lot of pressure, but she will come out of all of this fine. I think the less personally she takes this, the better she will be. She sounds very strong, and she has a lot of personal support.
562/RRR – Any new ETA on the report beyond what we already know, which is vague to say the least ?
563- How can you not take it personally…its her job…what she does day in and day out and puts her heart into her job…How can you not take it peronally.
I think when the report comes out many people will be surprised as to the info in it and pathways it was gatehered. Thats all I can say on that.
564- No info on the report
563/Lisa: I respectfully disagree with her taking this “too personally”. Her reputation and actions have been roundly & harshly criticized; she has been the subject of a media firestorm/circus of unprecedented & epic proportions; she has been totally unable – in conjunction with those criticisms – to speak up and defend herself due to a gag order.
Too personally?? How could you not take all of that VERY personally?
Lisa, I understand what you are saying but imho how can you not take this personally? I hope if ever I get lost or am in need of a SAR operation, that everyone involved takes it personally. as if I were a family member. just my opinion.
deleted
to ellaborate on 567, once you’re that involved, I think it would be *very* hard to just detatch, and allow critism and judgement from outsiders to just roll off you. too hard. imo
Mr. Fitzwater,
Now THAT is good writing.
(571) its real gud!
charles, can I borrow your dictionary? 🙂
568 – “Yawping philosophies”, “lickspittles”, LOL. I think Pac/CW has met his match!
568 Utterly and totally descends to the boorish & offensive level of Pac. What is this, 2 wrongs make a right ? Give me a break. You’re all on a witchhunt of epic proportions.
Quote – “Mr. Wilson respects nothing, honors nothing, and values nothing beyond himself, don’t you think?” – Lee Fitzwater.
My answer? yes, that is what I think.
567- Tara – that’s not what I meant. I feel the same way that people should always take it personally when doing an SAR operation – as if they are looking for a family member.
I just mean when a situation is investigated, that it’s best if people don’t take it so personally.
She’ll be able to clear up whatever she wants soon.
I’m just saying that there is a much bigger picture here,
and it hasn’t been all about her, and it shouldn’t be all about her. There are a lot of factors involved.
I’m just saying investigations are part of this line of work, and they’re not for the personal bad, they’re for the greater good.
566- And Paul I think you’re making it a bigger deal than it’s really been. Like Mapper said, she has a friend who is a journalist in California and hasn’t even heard of this case.
When the results of the OSSA come out, things will be able to be cleared up.
We can’t not have investigations just because people might not like their roles being looked into.
OK, where are the guys in the white suits?
Maybe Mr. Fitzwater knows a bit more than your giving him credit for.
574 – Perhaps he’s illustrating the absurd with absudity, as others have been known to do?
How about putting the question this way: How would you suggest the/such investigations and the results be handled by all involved?
579. I dont know Madeleine. There is something fishy about it indeed. Perhaps Mr. Fitzwater can expand on what he knows about Charles Wilson.
Some of the phrases sound “generated” by a computer. But….we shall see….
All I am saying is that everyone can make it worse for themselves when they focus on taking it really personally.
As part of our ongoing quest for accuracy, we would like to interview participants in the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6. We strongly prefer on-the-record discussions, but if you can make a case for confidentiality we will honor it.
Here’s how we’ll conduct interviews:
– By phone
– Recorded
– If requested by us or you within 24 hours, a followup interview to clear up ambiguities
– Complete recordings and transcripts to be published on our website as soon as possible after the interview
– You can expect a professional, respectful, candid and thorough discussion. We will expect the same.
Contact us through the website and we’ll set it up. Be prepared to verify your identity.
I am dying to know what Joe *really* thinks about all this!!!
583 – I’ll bet they’ll be lining up to do interviews.
583 😆 🙄
579/581: What is absurd is the obsession with Pac being CW; what is absurd is this obsession their website; what is the most absurd is the rambling, offensive nonsense of 568.
Joe banned Pac days ago.
Disagree with DH & CW if you want, but they have generally been civil and polite. They have their own sandbox now, let them go play in it. When I see a post like 568 it screams hypocrite to me, all your doing is descending to the same low level as those you criticize.
I like the title of Joes latest blog entry though….
I am postive its just a coeincedence….
584/Mapper: I have a pretty good idea what Joe will think about it, I will eat my sock if I am wrong ! 🙂
585 – Forgot to add: /end sarcasm.
583 – Did everyone hear that rush for the phone?
🙂 I need to get some work done today, you guys are too funny. I finally watched the herding cats video too! hahaha.
Paul, Spencer appears to be alive and well on the comments section of Joes latest blog entry! just thought I would let you know!!
(587) Are you that upset that you were wrong?
Kaboom!
Chill out my friend…life is too short.
Now I have to go back to work.
For the record I found Lee H. Fitzwater’s post to be most entertaining and very well written – could even rise to the level of masterpiece.