The Kim Story discussion continues in the comments below. Please feel free to chime in.
For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages click here.
Joe Duck
Have Blog. Will Travel. Vaccinate!
The Kim Story discussion continues in the comments below. Please feel free to chime in.
For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages click here.
Joe Duck 
The Kim Story discussion continues in this comment section.
Please feel free to chime in.
For background and earlier Kim Story discussion pages go here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/kim-story/
Joe – how many total posts 🙂 Wow!
About the painted directions at the intersection. I do believe it is possible to overlook even in the best of weather and a bright sun. They are also non-standard and I think some pedople would ignore a homemade direction like that.
Mapper…you are smart and intuitive. 🙂
dkf747
spray painted directions speak volumes in and of themselves….
homeade directions are never a good sign (no pun intended:)
Joe Duck is a very good man! 🙂
1381,1386 Glenn and Paul’s comments
This has been my main question. Why didn’t they go back the way they came? Kati did say that they were running low on gas from their efforts to get out of the snow in some article. Were they 2 miles from 34 down the spur they took to turn around? My main confusion has been that I thought Bear Camp Rd. was the name of the whole road. And Paul cleared that up for me.
I had so much trouble getting the page to refresh, then froze up, rebooted a couple of times, I don’t know if I got an answer, if anyone knows, at to where the Viewpoint is that Kati referred to as near their turn around or backing down point.
Is it on Bear Camp or BLM34-8-? If the Viewpoint is on 34 before it intersects with BC/FS23, then it makes sense that they never went on BC/23 at all, but took the right option at the intersection of BC/23 and 34 and then drove to the Viewpoint, backed down or took the spur off of that road, drove lower to get out of the snow.
Does anyone have a link to a map that shows the names on the road and how it changes from Galice Creek Rd. (is that also called 23 along with BC?) and to Bear Camp? And does it show the Viewpoint?
If you can help me with this, then I’ll get to my real work and leave you all alone!
It’s my mom’s 93rd birthday today and she requested chocolate chip cookies for her freezer stash, so best be getting those baked.
Wow, that was smoother than I thought it would be.
I’m trying to simplify searching and navigation by putting relevant links on this page which is listed at the top of *every* page of Joe Duck:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/kim-story/
Paul re: how many comments? The first six pages all went over 1000 comments. Total comments are now approx 6600!
1387/Mapper: I’m inclined to agree with you, the most critical element is the maps. There are NO signs, anywhere, on I-5 directing drivers to Merlin et al as a possible coast route. Beyond the maps it is ambiguous signage; there should be a sign at the junction/turnoff before Galice that unequivocally states the potential dangers ahead.
That does not answer why they continued on down the fork, which is still a germane question, but in terms of preventing a recurrence, the maps and the signs seem crucial.
Also, for what it’s worth, I think Mr. Wilson sounds too polite and reasonable to be Pac, despite his Seattle address.
5 mapper, Yes, they do speak volumes! I am trying to imagine driving and coming upon them. I would not trust them completely, and would wonder why they were there, but I would just go the way I think is right. At least before this tragedy happened that’s probably what I would have done. There’s a reason for the standards.
Orygungirl are you on a dial-up internet connection?
Any error messages?
Are other people having problems with the page loading? Even with all the comments these pages are not huge, just large. However I think WordPress is not used to so many comments in such a short time.
7/Orygungirl: The summit rest stop is on FS23 aka Bear Camp. Several of us have expressed doubts they EVER made it that far. That is at 4000′ plus and if snow was the issue, it seems unlikely they would have made it that far.
Joe remember Maggie’s last Google Earth map, maybe that link could go at the top of a page as a permanent entry, because there will be all sort of directions and areas described in the OSSA report.
Joe, I jsut submitted a long paragraph and it didn’t load. I think we are all catching up and trying not to get behind! I am much better at baking than blogging, so here I go.
11 – No problem here, Joe. 🙂
I am on AFN, computer less than a year old.
11/ No page loading probs here.
Lost that post, so will repeat more briefly…
During my overnight Mt. Hood blooper, we did go back the way we came after the 9 hours to get the car out of the “jello snow”. We questioned that decision as we had driven in going happily down the east facing slopes that were a foot of snow, and back up the west facing slopes with less snow. We knew we would have to navigate those snowy east facing slopes (several of them) and that it would be risky enough that we thought we would have to walk out the 10 or so miles we had come in. The road ahead looked much better than the one we had to backtrack on and there were even tire tracks, but we decided known was better than unknown.
I think the Kims may have thought going back the way they came, if they had been driving in the snow for a while on that road, was riskier than night than taking the spur road. In many cases it was a better decision to wait out the storm. Not this time, unfortunately. I’m still unsure if they drove more than 2 miles as Kati said after the decision to spend the night. More than 2 miles downhill on the spur road to get out of the snow.
Oh, I know what I did. I lost that submission because I refreshed insteat of clicking submit. My error. I have done that more than once since my mouse is constantly jumping up there to refresh.
5 The viewpoint is on FS23.
As to the name Bear Camp Road – it is the most confusing road to identify. On some maps it appears the
FS23 is Bear camp rd. while 34-8-36 is both Galice Creek rd and Galice access road. Locals say that 34-8-36 from Galice to the intersection is part of Bear Camp RD. That’s probably the true one, but it seems to me that what one person calls Bear Camp rd is not the same as what another person thinks it is. Two things about that: one, I wonder if there are street signs that identify it as Bear Camp rd? (I’ve seen the pics identifying it as 34-8-36) The second thing, the yellow warning signs say Bear camp rd. with a 23 marker on it. So based on the signs it appears that Bear Camp rd is FS23, and not 34-8-36, but the locals refer to the whole thing as Bear Camp Rd. Does this help clear it up? If it does, explain it to me please. 🙂
Another thought that came to me while typing the above. The warning signs say, “Bear Camp Rd. May be closed…”, but no sign says the spurs may be closed. Since the ODOT map says the same thing, the absence of signs about the spurs might have led them to think gthey could get around the closure.
dkf747 Yeah, maybe about getting around the closure, but remember these are BLM logging roads and even covered with snow, if is obvious that they deteriorate as you travel further on them unless they are currently being used for logging.
Quote: “Hastings said the Kims spotted some warning signs that the one-lane road is often blocked by snowdrifts and decided to turn back. The snow was coming down so heavily that James Kim had to open the car door to see as he backed up. They turned right onto a spur road and drove 15 miles before they could go no farther.”
“At first it was only raining, she told Lee, but snow began falling as they got higher in the mountains. She said the road was pretty bad and at one point she and her husband had to get out and remove rocks from the road. They soon realized they weren’t going to make it over the mountain and decided to turn around and drive back to a lower elevation to get out of the snow. Around the Bear Camp Viewpoint high in the mountains, the Kims sidetracked onto a spur road in an attempt to turn around and traveled about 2 miles.”
This isn’t a direct quote from Kati, but did they actually drive 15 miles down the spur road “before they could go no farther” before they turned around “near the Viewpoint” or had they already driven the 15 miles on 34-8-36, were “near the viewpoint” and then “could go no farther”, backed up and took the spur road they were found on for 2 miles to another intersection…
REVELATION! Oh, maybe they went down that spur road to turn around (the 2 miles) and then came back to the intersection of 34-8-36 and the spur road they had turned around on. and this is where they were found.
If this is it and someone can confirm (also still would like a map link) I’ll go make the cookies.
Thanks for any help. This is what kept me awake last night.
I don’t recall reading that Kati mentioned a Viewpoint. But, looking at the area on Google Earth it is apparent that FS23 climbs up a ridge, and within a half mile it appears that you can see down both sides. From there up to the county line the road alternates between the ridge top and the south slope of the ridge.
Looking back east from the 23/BLM junction, BLM 34-8-36 skirts a north slope for about 2 miles before reaching a multiway junction (Serpentine Spring, Peavine Valley Rd?). From there east it drops down to Galice Ck.
So if I were at the 23/36 junction, heading N on 36 (into the maze) might appear to be the fastest way to lower altitudes. Couple that with the fact that it is wide and paved, and we might get some idea of why they took that route.
But in retrospect they should have stayed at the junction, even if it meant getting snowed in. Searchers made it to this point by Friday. On the other hand, it could have been a lot colder.
paulj
I was having a problem with all of the acronyms. What stumped me was this ICS thing that has popped up. RRR-78 and others have referred to it and it got the best of me. There is sooo much information about ICS that I have been away trying to understand it.
The way I see it now is that while Sara in involved with the search she is not the IC. It seems that she and JOCOSAR were in the field with other searchers. If I understand RRR-78, JOCOSAR and Sara have a good understanding about resources and where to get “stuff” in a hurry.
If the IC and staff are making decisions what roll does someone such as JOCOSAR and Sara have? If the IC is making all of the operational decisions then why is someone tasked with resources taking any heat?
Maybe RRR-78 will help me understand. It would seem to me that the IC group would be pleased to have JOCOSAR and Sara and their knowledge. I don’t see the need to crucify the cook because the coffee is cold.
Thanks Paul, again.
I think they were intent on getting out of the snow.
I quoted an article regarding Kati’s conversation with her friend Lee. It’s not a direct quote, but she must have mentioned the viewpoint as it is in several articles referenced as “in the area of Bear Camp Viewpoint”. Maybe she herself didn’t mention it. That would lead back to my thinking that they never took the left hand choice at the intersection of 23 and 34-8-36.
What map are you looking at?
It would be great if Joe could put that link at the top of the page for quick reference.
Herb
Great question. I also thought Saras role was different, as where I am from “emergency coordinator” means something different than what I have read here, since Jocosar spoke up.
13 – Bamadad – until Joe puts the Google Earth up, please click on the link in my name, and it will take you to links of what I traced and what RRR did for the Peavine Route as well.
I’m going to make a couple of posts here that you ought to find interesting. I apologize in advance for the length of both of them.
I am a former journalist. I did it for more than a decade before moving to more lucrative pursuits. Along the way, I worked for a metropolitan newspaper of the Portland Oregonian‘s size and reach, but not that specific publication. The reason I mention my background is to try to lend credibility to my reliance on the Associated Press story that I mentioned on the sixth comment page, post #1374.
A newspaper reporter is a researcher and a writer. The researcher gathers facts and opinions, and the writer arranges them in a readable way. People who haven’t done that job would be amazed at how challenging it is to write a readable account. When I started out as a reporter, I would almost literally pound my head in frustration over this. Reading the newspaper seems so easy, but just try writing those articles. It is a very constraining format, much more than people know. I would compare newspaper journalism to Kabuki theatre. It is highly stylized.
As someone who has written articles very much like the AP story, I am certain that readabiility is why it didn’t attribute every single element to Kati Kim or the police who interviewed her. I’ll repost the excerpt below with a couple paragraphs added. I will boldface the key parts and explain, on the basis of my extensive journalism background, how I think it should be properly read.
Authorities said that over a period of days, Kati Kim recalled more and more them details that allowed them to piece together her husband’s final days.
After visiting Seattle and Portland over the Thanksgiving holiday, the family headed back to California, planning to stay overnight at a luxury lodge along the Rogue River near Gold Beach on the southern Oregon coast.
After stopping for dinner in Roseburg on Nov. 25, they headed south on Interstate 5, intending to cross the Coast Range on Oregon Highway 42.
Kati Kim told searchers that when they realized they had missed the turnoff, they looked at a roadmap and found a direct route that went from the little town of Merlin over the mountains to Gold Beach. They did not consult their two laptop computers for an online map.
After leaving the freeway, the Kims drove past a gas station, pizza parlor and coffee shop. On the way they passed at least three yellow signs warning that Bear Camp Road to Agnes and Gold Beach might be blocked by snowdrifts. The road is paved but one lane, originally built to haul logs out of the Siskiyou National Forest.
Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.
Kati Kim told searchers they got stuck in snow once, managed to get turned around, then decided to stay put because they were low on gas. With almost no food or water, the family waited a week, running the car to keep warm at night, then burning the tires. When the small supply of baby food ran out, Kati Kim nursed her daughters.
Reporters don’t get their information by osmosis. They talk to people. In this case, I’m sure the AP reporter had at least one long conversation with authorities about what Kati Kim told them. The reporter had other information as well, from his prior interviews and stories.
When you write a newspaper story, journalistic convention says that you should use quotes sparingly, almost always for illustrative purposes except when the exact wording becomes the story itself. That’s because long quotes lose readers. Interviews are often choppy and meandering, and people don’t speak succinctly. This is especially true of police. Along the way, I did the police beat. Those conversations are full of jargon that has to be translated to plain English, so lengthy quotes of police would be gibberish.
Aside from the judicious use of quotes, readability calls for a logical flow. This means inserting contextual material to give meaning to individual facts. By the way, Readability does not imply manipulation or dishonesty. Quite the opposite. Readability is a good thing; it lends adds context, logic and structure, and therefore establishes accuracy and credibility.
Attribution is similar to quotation. All information in a newspaper story must be attributed, except when it is observably true or generally accepted as fact. But attribution cannot be allowed to kill readability, because if people don’t read your story then you’ve performed a useless task. Not only that, but a newspaper is a business, and if newspapers are not readable people won’t buy them. It’s a sad but true fact.
Therefore, as with quotations, you don’t attribute at each step of the way if it interrupts the narrative. Instead, attribution can be implied; at some level, a reporter can rely on his readership’s elementary logical skill. Believe me, editors and reporters can have some pretty colorful arguments over how much attribution to stick into a story.
The material about the number of warning signs didn’t need attribution because it’s observably true. The information about the gas station, pizza parlor and gas station didn’t have to come from her either, as long as she identified what route they took. In practical reality, I suspect that this stuff did come from her, and that police used it to nail down her approach to Bear Camp Road, via Galice Road through Merlin, Oregon.
The road being paved but one lane didn’t have to come from Kati Kim, because it’s observably true. Its history as a logging road didn’t have to come from her or the police either. It was obviously inserted as context, and we can figure that the AP reporter did a bit of research to get that tidbit. I assume it’s true.
But I very strongly believe that the material about the fork came from Kati Kim’s statements to authorities. The attribution is implied, and the meaning is clear. A reasonable reader would (and should) understand it to mean that the Kims saw the fourth warning sign and decided to take the logging road.
The attribution “told searchers” or “authorities said” is given three times in the excerpt. It’s not attached to each bit of information from authorities because it would impede the narrative flow. The attribution to what happened at the fork in the road is implied. This fits with standard journalistic convention.
Remember, the AP wrote a newspaper story not a police report. It’s an article designed to be read by the general public. As someone who has written a couple thousand stories published in newspapers, I think people who see it otherwise are misreading the AP’s report. I would add that the Associated Press is as close to Joe Friday as it gets. They’re not perfect, but let’s put it this way: If my mother told me something and the AP contradicted her, I’d tell my mother to check her facts.
I do agree with those who say that only Kati Kim can provide a definitive account. I would like to see such an interview, but we don’t have one. This leaves us with two choices: Give up trying to figure out what route they took and why, or carefully read what has been reported. I chose the AP article because the AP is generally solid, and because the article was based on interviews with her “over a period of days.”
18 – Orygun, my hunch, too, that either the Kim’s thought that they were on the correct route all along and/or possibly turning around on a spur but being confused (easy to do) and maybe thought they were turning out the way they came but were not? Just a guess, pure speculation.
There are typos and misspelling above (no spell check on this site), and one correctable error: I meant to write that if newspapers are NOT readable, people won’t buy them. Mea culpa.
24/Orygun: No map, I can’t find the viewpoint on a map, though it may be on one. I’ve been over BearCamp probably 30 times at least in conjunction with rafting the Rogue. For clarity, I should point out that I am ALWAYS going the opposite direction the Kims were – from Agness to Galice, so the forked intersection does not have the same impact on my memory as if I was going the other way.
27-Charles and 28-Maggie,
I have started the cookies for Mom, but will take some time later to look at all the material you have compiled.
Maggie, what a lot of work you have done.
I’m looking forward to going over all of the story and links again and maybe finding information I haven’t seen.
The news stories have caused part of the confusion as well as the mixing of direct quotes and reporting you all discussed yesterday.
How do you great contributors get anything done?
I did find that I can be sticky from the cookies and still keep one hand clean to grab the mouse and click refresh. But typing takes two hands so I’ll just keep quiet.
orygungirl-
my normal activities are suffering due to my posting and reading and some side research…after viewing maggies website and knowing she will be doing lots of scanning I am just in awe! Must be the dutch brothers, must get some of that.
Second posting as promised.
Last week I hooked up with Dee, who has posted here as “DH” and on another board as “Djdee.” I picked her because I agreed with her point of view about the Kim situation. I offered to carefully research and write a narrative of the thing from start to finish, to be posted on a different website with a moderated comments forum.
I have finished the narrative, which runs for almost 10,000 words. Dee is a website developer. We originally had planned to include this on her Oregon SAR site, but then mutually decided to set up a separate “Kim Tragedy” site.
That site will be up and running by tomorrow afternoon, and maybe sooner. It will contain the narrative, which I have written and which Dee has helped edit, along with a comment board. We will edit the comment board with an eye toward preventing the emotional exchanges seen here and elsewhere, while still having a useful, informative and productive discussion.
Dee will post here sometime today, and I might return later on as well, but we’ve agreed between the two of us to try to limit the frequency and the intensity of any comments here. There’s been too much heat, and too little light, shed on the incident.
30-Paul
My only trip over the whole road was from Gold Beach to Merlin, and we camped, so I don’t remember much at all about intersections. Also, didn’t notice all the spur roads.
When you raft the lower Rogue Wild and Scenic, do you take out at AGness? I did come back on that road from that raft trip in mid June once and there was considerable snow, but only in spots. It had snowed and hailed mercilessly on our second day on the river. In fact we begged and offered to pay lots of money to one of the lodges to take us in, but they were full. I don’t remember which lodge it was. By sunset the weather had changed, as it does, and we had some sun to dry out all our gear.
On the way back (they had shuttled three cars for us) we had huge and violent snow ball fights, blocking the road and bombarding the cars behind us (they were all friends, of course). It did get out of hand when the headlights of a new BMW got broken. Yes, there was restitution to pay.
Such a different experience I have had on that road, and I’m sure this is true for any of the posters who live here.
(33) LOL…thanks.
31 – 32 Orygun, thanks! I never knew how cool Google Maps was until that, and it was actually very interesting – not at all “work-like.” Please note that the path I traced does *not* address any going on or turning around on FS23, just taking that right at the FS23/BLM intersection, and that was mainly based on what I was reading and seeing on other maps throughout the media.
My life has become almost non-existent, but the one hand on the Dutch Bros pulls me through. Tonight I am being forced to go have a life for a few hours, but I’m only going kicking and screaming. So I treated myself to another latte today (which I never do). 😉
Paul…still unsure? 🙂
Anyway, you posted something yesterday I wanted to comment on and also Madeleine and am too lazy to look it back up (and actually trying to do something else here, like work!)
Madeleine,
Thanks for looking into an alternate arguement for what happened with the airspace. My bigest question with all that was simliar…since when does Spencer Kim control the airspace? I’m interested in learning more….as it comes in.
Paul. I’m with you. The poster in question yesterday was abusive in my opinion, more than just about anyone we have seen. Browbeating a point over and over, and ridiculing other posters as if they are too stupid to read and come to conclsions deserves calling out indeed. I was probably wrong to do it the way I did it, and feel even worse about insluting grod more than said poster….but I felt her posts were abusive and…said upwards of 20 times its enough. But, what is or is not abusive is sometimes a matter of personal opinion, I suppose.
Charles,
I started on the MT forum and ended up here when it became too personal. I appreciated the sparring between the posters, including Djdee and PacNWer as a lot of imformation was exchanged. It’s what got me addicted. I don’t mind differing opinions and try not to see statements written in the heat of the moment as “fact” or “not fact”. Sometimes it is just the omission of a word like probably or possibly that changes the context. I see this all as an exchange of ideas. A very rapid exchange at times and very stimulating. I am so glad that all these people care enough to keep the flame alive and look forward to yours and Dee’s efforts. I miss her on both forums. I am a newbie, but have spent many days just reading. It is the possibility that our access to these thousands of logging roads in the backcountry of Oregon and other similar NW states would be closed to the public that is my personal interest. And of course, the identification with and empathy for the Kim family.
(33) Have you ever been banned at another forum before? Just curious…
38 – Orygun, I do think that many of us agree that we would not want to see access to these roads closed to the public. There is a middle ground somewhere – somewhere along the lines of the half-gates or similar maybe so that people can use these roads and areas but will know what they are going into if they do before it’s too late.
27/33 – Mr. Wilson, an extremely thorough, enlightening & informative write-up on the newspaper industry, thank you. I think you make some extremely valid points. The key quote, IMHO from AP is: “They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.”…but it does not address the “why” of that decision, which is the one that troubles me most.
(37) OMG it is like The Return of Jason.
I would like to say for the record that I don’t believe anyone should be fired.
Acknowledging mistakes in a public arena can be a tricky thing. People can get personal about it on both sides – some taking it personally, some meaning it personally. But there are also times when acknowledging mistakes is just that; it is just an acknowledgement of mistakes.
The mistake(s) would be acknowledged no matter who made them.
It is the defensiveness against the acknowledgement of mistakes that makes people think it was a personal attack when no personal attack was meant.
I acknowledge mistakes I make often, and I do not feel like I am personally attacking myself.
Just because people are named, and it is acknowledged that mistakes may have been made, does not make it a personal attack.
Reasonable people always make reasonable mistakes. But that does not mean those mistakes should not be acknowledged and learned from, especially in critical and emergency situations.
42. I always wondered what he did for a living.
44 😉 (Ok, sorry. Done now.)
39/Glenn: I would be STUNNED if C.W. is Pac; Pac was never that eloquent nor that rationale. Disagree if you will, but if I were Wilson I would be insulted.
(33) Pac and DH glad you have found each other – I am sure your sparkling beams of truth will continue to shine for a long time with your moderation and editorial oversight.
DH glad you took my advice and decided to support Pac instead of playing both sides against the middle.
But Pac please no more visuals about you hooking up with DH – thanks.
Good luck with your new site – I mean it. 🙂
44/Mapper: I think you & Glenn are both wrong, not that it’s terribly important. I think Wilson’s posts have been respectful, appropriate and well mannered, in complete contrast to he to whom you compare him. Just because he takes a similar position doesn’t mean they are one and the same.
Paul
I disagree. Pac, while insluting, took great pains to capitalize the middle of his name and relyed heavily on formatting and grammar, wrote very well indeed. Just not very nice or reasonable.
Glenn I just laughed out loud in public, that was embarassing.
(46) Paul go back to page 1 of this forum and look at Charles’s posts and then Pac’s. You be the judge and in fact when Pac was trying to make his case early on he used the same format as Charles did here.
Both of them stop posting over at MT.
Charles links an article on MT…
Isn’t it ironic there is a reporter at the Washington Post named Charles Wilson but this Charles Wilson speaks about being a reporter in the past…
They are both from Seattle.
It just looks like a concerted effort to get their damaging message out without the scrutiny of others – in effect they are creating the Anti-Joe blog where here we really are trying to keep an open mind and the facts and exchanging ideas…whereas you will see that Pac and DH will moderate any message that detracts from their message.
And why would Charles state he needed to take a break before he escalated the language.
Come on Paul you really can’t fall for this…can you?
49 – Mapper, I admit, some latte came out my nose, and I made a bit of a scene…
Glenn, exactly the esculating language….we are sharing a brain right now. I am glad we will be sent to time out together if joe gets mad.
Oh my goodness – what an afternoon it appears more mystery and intrigue 🙂
(46) I could tell you a lot more…but let’s see what happens. I am sure it will be clear soon enough and I am positive Charles Wilson is just another name to hide behind – there are 67 of them in the Seattle area. 🙂
If joeducks were set up like digg.com I think it could be a very helpful real time decision making tool for SAR leaderships.
“Digg is a digital media democracy. As a user, you participate in determining all site content by discovering, selecting, sharing, and discussing the news. What can you do as a Digg user? Lots. Every person can digg (help promote), bury (help remove spam), and comment on stories… you can even Digg and bury comments you like or dislike.” http://www.digg.com
Just think if if if — after the Kims were reported missing John James, John Rachor, Eric Fuqua, Joe Duck and Spencer Kim had posted their thoughts and findings to a widely known digg like SAR specific web site. I betcha their stories would have popped to the “front page” and, hopefully, been followed by immediate, appropriate search action.
or… had the refusals by the hotel and restaurant to disclose vital credit card information been immediately publicized on ‘this’ web site, a few thousand emails to their managers from concerned joeduckers may have persuaded them to be more cooperative..
A *digg* like “JoeDuck Emergency-Central” web site as a key information source for SAR leaderships is the way to go, I think.
Would be a nice tribute to James too.
(33) Also Charlie or whomever you are nice to see you trying to launch your agenda off of all hard work Joe has done here.
It is not unlike the advertising attempt by DH earlier here on the forum – but she was advertising her services…which is really a gray area as far as blogs go not something you really should be doing without permission from the blog owner.
Charles– very professional. thanks. Have you or do you plan to visit the actual site near Bear Camp?
charles (regardless of who you might have been in a former screename)
I think having your own place to talk about this is a great idea, if the majority of the people here have a different focus, the arguments detract from the cause. I think the people here and the people whose opinions are entirley different…have differnt causes all together. You will probably do better with DH and at another site, simply to reduce arguements here. I mean that respectfully.
(55) Kip you are a very smart man indeed…please make sure you keep in touch with us as move forward – in fact we are planning to interface to over a dozen like services.
Very perceptive of you…digg and other tagging repositories are a great way to connect the dots out here.
Charles welcome and thanks for the journalism insights. I added the “not” you mentioned above and a few typos though that’s way too time consuming for me to do unless it’s a huge problem with understanding somebody’s comment.
Please feel free to post the links to the new site here when you and D.H. are done with it. Sorry you did not feel welcome enough here to keep the discussion in one place.
A theme here is that people keep popping in or writing in other places to “defend” their areas of expertise and I think that is fascinating. Charles says the journalism in the case is fine, OSP says OSP handled everything according to hoyle, SAR says SAR was handled correctly, etc.
So, in this defensive tradition here’s my defensive statement about blogging the Kim Story:
I’ve been *extremely* sparing in moderation here, contrary to some emails and accusations over at the Mail Tribune forum. I’m guiltier of allowing too much than censoring things, which has been at most a handful of comments and one commenter who was asked to stop. This out of about 6600 total comments.
The song remains the same here: ALL ideas about the story are welcome and NO abusive comments or insults are welcome.
23- Now keeping what I said in 43 in mind, after the “official” SAR effort began on Sunday Dec. 3, Sara R was officially in the position of Logistics Coordinator.
However, prior to that, during the “courtesy clearing of
roads,” she was the SAR coordinator who was supervising that effort under the Undersheriff.
Please correct me if I am wrong, or there is some more technical explanation of the role.
And please keep in mind that these issues would be important to me no matter who the specific individuals involved were.
Joe, I agree you have been incredibly tolerant, and was suprised by what I read over at MT…something about you being a communist. I know I would be quite strict compared to you!
32 and 36, Maggie and mapper
I have been ignoring my work and even let some phone calls go by. I shared with a friend that I have become obsessed!
Yikes, just as I was writing this, the friend stopped by and I didn’t hear her at the door. She called out, “Are you on there again?” so I talked to a real person for a while.
So nice to have a place to share and thanks to JoeDuck for providing it and to all of you for sharing.
61 – I’m just trying to sort out what responsibilities one has in either position that you mentioned (SAR Coordinator before narrowed down to Jo County or Logistics once it was – if I’m understanding correctly). As pointed out above by Tara (and similarly in previous posts by JoCoSAR), GR does show Logistics coordinator booking rooms and arranging for meals.
(61) Lisa I am confident that Sara R. was mis-understood with the statements in the press.
It could have been as simple as we cleared bear camp road and spent the day clearing the spur roads.
Based on what I have read about the amount of spur roads there is no way anyone with good knowledge of the area would think they cleared all the spur roads in the amount of time they had.
How close is this area to Curry County btw? Does anyone know? When did Curry County suspend their search
Kip – Digg style interface for SAR. That is a *really* interesting idea. Also easy to set up using Pligg which is an open source Digg clone that can be used to create sites like Digg.
However my initial thinking is that although the project should work to get missing person stories quickly Dugg to spread the word an enlist the minions of diggers in the search for people and cars, the blog and database portions of an SAR site would simply collect the basic information. Note that of the tens of thousands of annual missing person cases there are at most a handful that get Kim story attention.
Detective Mike and I were talking about this on the phone and he noted how unusual this case was in terms of media attention and national interest – this from somebody who handles thousands of cases.
65 – Glenn, I’m inclined to believe that there was some kind of miscommunication somehow, too – anyone who knew anything about the area would know that there are too many miles of spur roads. Something doesn’t match.
I may be naive, however I would like to throw out the possibility that there was no blame and identifying the ‘mistakes’ is really just a semantically different way of identifying a point of blame.
There is certainly a sequence of events that led to both an incredible rescue and the tragic loss of life. For many reasons that have been well discussed we are all drawn into the unfolding of this tragic ending. And many of us are searching for solutions that could have prevented the final outcome.
I’d just like to propose the possibility that everyone involved from the Kims to Police to the State to SAR to the reporters did the what they believed was best at that time given their own perspective, and experience.
Was it perfect – No, of course not! There are likely lots of areas for improvement – much of which has been focused on here. Great ideas have been discussed from Prevention including better maps, signage, and emergency preparedness; to much armchair hindsight opinions (and likely much more lively comments to come once the investigative reports are released).
So Joe, thanks Again for the blog space. It really is a special place!
55 – Kip, such a neat idea. I love Digg but had never thought of it as being so helpful in something like this. Very nice!
(67) I am focusing on the details also involving Curry County. I also believe that Sara R.’s role was diminished during this effort. Not sure how much and for how long and wonder how much of an impact it had on efficiency.
Also is it standard for the L&C to book hotel rooms? I know it is part of logistics just wondering what level that groundwork would be done at.
68 – Angela, I join you in the naive corner if it is naive, then, because that’s seemed a possibility to me all along as well.
The first rule of journalism is, “Never assume anything.” The second rule of journalism is, “If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out.”
My having cited the AP article favorably does not mean that I think “the journalism in this case is fine.” Far from it.
When our website in up and running you will see that, in fact, I am pretty critical of much of the reporting. I think the Associated Press story that I have cited was excellent. I have mixed views about the Portland Oregonian‘s coverage. I think the San Francisco Chronicle has been deficient. I think the national media had done a bad job.
60/Joe – Thank you for hosting and censoring with a light hand.
50/54: Glenn/Mapper et al: I DID go back and look at page one and I concede you’re comments on the formatting issue are spot-on. I can see I am in the minority in my belief…even hopeful Maggie seems to agree with you. IF you & Mapper are right, we all know it will take very little time at all for said party to revert to the tone and texture that made his previous taunts unbearable by all – he/she just can’t contain himself.
If I am right, as you say, it will be clear soon enough.
In EITHER event, Joe is right (and its his blog, so he’s right even if he’s not 🙂 : “ALL ideas about the story are welcome.” Let’s not make the man feel unwelcome right out of the gate.
Hi Maggie – did the postman bring you a package today??
74 – Hi Angela 🙂 Sadly, I won’t be home until after 6 or so (then out again), so I do not know yet… I’m using visualization to imagine mailman placing it in the box. If it comes, I might not be able to scan until tomorrow – well, unless I drink coffee when I finally get back home 😉
Charles–
Have you read most if not all the comments on this blog by Joe Duck? Have you found any useful ideas to prevent a similar future tragedy? Will you be publishing them?
73 – Hopeful and naive Maggie says maybe… pretty compelling reasons to suspect. I’ll wait – for that, for the mailman, and for the OSSA report.
Lisa and Glenn re: Curry County and Spur road issues:
I think the the Curry County line is under 5 miles from where the car was found. I don’t understand why Curry felt so confident they could not have made it over to Curry, but it may be because Bear Camp and spurs up there were impassable at the higher elevations.
Regarding the clearing of Bear Camp spur roads. I think there was a misunderstanding about the huge difference between these two statements.
“Bear Camp Road is cleared” vs “Bear Camp road and the hundreds of miles of spur roads branching off from it are cleared”.
In my opinion it is a mistake to think such misunderstandings lie at the heart of all this since the search in that area was NOT called off. However we see again that a *very simple* statewide central data depository would have allowed everybody (Carson Choppers, OSP, SAR, media) to determine which roads were clear and which needed to be searched. I do not think individual negligence led to the death of James Kim, it was a lack of quality communication that got him lost and a lack of quality communication that kept him from getting found in time.
(73) And all ideas are subject to be challenged by anyone here and they should be…that is exactly what is about forcing thought and re-thinking, etc.
Joe’s point about insults is very important and I know I am guilty of that but in most cases I believe it was in self-defense but it doesn’t make me any better than the original insult.
We all need to try to remain civil even though this is a very emotionally charged topic. We are nearing the finish line here and the conversations happening now and in the future will most likely shape a lot of stuff to come.
It is important everyone should be able to post as long as their posts are geniune and not intended just to insult and flare up battles with each other.
Being a devil’s advocate is one thing…but PacULizing something is a whole other issue.
For the record I want to see a photo of Paul when he is “stunned” 🙂
68-Angela. Very nicely stated.
Edit:
Charles–
Have you read most if not all the comments on this blog? Have you found any useful ideas to prevent a similar future tragedy? Will you be publishing them?
Not just Joe’s comments, but everyone’s.
68- Angela, I disagree heartily that identifying mistakes is really “just a semantically different way of identifying a point of blame.”
It is about identifying cause and effect. And what can be improved.
It’s people and their emotional issues that determine how they feel about ‘mistakes’.
We can’t learn unless we look at cause and effect relationships. And that includes acknowledging when they didn’t turn out too well.
Of course “everyone involved from the Kims to Police to the State to SAR to the reporters did the what they believed was best at that time given their own perspective, and experience,” that is what all of us are doing all of the time.
But in hindsight we categorize our actions in terms of ‘good, better, best, not best, etc.’ in order to learn.
65- Glenn, it was not just the press who made those statements, it was the State Police, it was in the GR.
77/Maggie: Hopeful Maggie will always be, naive – I don’t think so…worldly wise is more appropriate. 🙂
(78) I agree with your last statement – nicely put.
I think Curry County was pretty close and I think they suspended their search…so I am just trying to put into context how JoCo (Josephine County) could be thinking they should end their search as well.
And the point about Sara R.’s comment is that I think the media is not reporting her statement accurately at all – she will have to clear it up at some point. I just don’t see their version as anything she would say directly – I think her phrases were mis-interpreted.
Bamadad #76, I posted on this board way, way long ago in the first comment thread. I was seeking more clarity on the satellite photos of the route. I’ve looked through the various comment threads, and the ideas for preventing future tragedies.
Yes, the narrative has a section that incorporates what we thought were some of the best ideas we’ve seen. The real point of the narrative, and the new site, is what you’ll see in the beginning as its “Preliminary Recommendations” section.
We hope that people will give more recommendations through the comment board that we establish.
The narrative will be a dynamic document. We’ll made changes in response to new reports as they come out, and possibly in response to comments and criticisms of our views. I think the central narrative will be valuable in a number of ways, one of them being to reduce the tendency to re-hash what really doesn’t have to be re-hashed.
I’m eager for Dee to get the HTML coding finished so we can get up and running. But I’m about as far from a technogeek as they get, so I’ll just have to wait in line like everyone else. 🙂
(82) There are areas where she was quoted…in the press and the GR. I think both places do not tell the whole story. I can’t see someone coordinating an effort making such a gaff – it is the core of what they do and she has done it for years on hundreds if not thousands of SAR efforts.
Also keep in mind please the GR does nothing for us – it is a compilation of notes, extracts from other sources and not directly from any individual involved. I think the GR report really was a complete waste of time – from the standpoint of getting to the bottom of something. I am really disappointed in that report.
82 – Lisa, re: 65 – Since no one was interviewed for the GR and it doesn’t seem possible to have cleared all spurs, I’m inclined to think that it may have been miscommunication.
Lisa (82)
I really like your statement
But in hindsight we categorize our actions in terms of ‘good, better, best, not best, etc.’ /i
To me this is much less pointing the finger then “mistakes”. Mistakes indicates there was a right and wrong decision and I just haven’t seen evidence that was the case.
(Or I’m overly optimistice about human nature – back to naive) 🙂
79/Glenn: PacULizing ?? – I can’t find that in Merriam-Webster online. 🙂 I will defer further comment until we have better clarity on the issue.
72/C. Wilson: Please end the suspense: as you can see, quite a few souls here think you are an alias for our good friend PacMan. You could, of course, lie. I suspect if you are and remain well behaved Joe will not censore again. If I am right, and you are not, then you are owed an apology.
I like Joe’s summation at the end of 78 on the causes.
88 – oops – didn’t get the italics turned off. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the second and third paragraphs were quoting you Lisa – Sorry about that
87-
I am going to stop talking about these issues because right now I am getting sick of them.
But it is not only the alleged or misunderstood statement about the spur roads being cleared. It is also the statement about the search being concluded that is troubling to me. Because that means that it was being concluded even though all the spur roads, especially the most important and significant spur roads had not been searched.
I’m sorry I just feel a need to be objective, and not swayed by personal feelings.
I always wondered why Pac was so upset about james being called a hero. now he is starting another site? you think he would admit using the internet is a good idea?
Paul, I mean no disrespect to newcomers, ever. I will eat my sock if I am wrong (to quote maggie, my new favorite term)
But I dont expect to find conclusive evidence here, especially from the source.
(91) Lisa do you think I am being swayed by personal feelings?
I am being swayed by facts not misunderstandings in the press and/or mistakes in the GR.
We will have to see if my hunch is right.
I am pretty critical of much of the reporting. I think the Associated Press story that I have cited was excellent. I have mixed views about the Portland Oregonian’s coverage. I think the San Francisco Chronicle has been deficient. I think the national media had done a bad job.
Thanks for clearing that up Charles. I think a lot of people would basically agree with you about this.
92/Mapper & Glenn – take a look at page one again…don’t you find it the least bit odd that Charles Wilson would post respectfully and intelligently at Post 399 and that, then, in post 400, his supposed alter ego would go on a total rant and rave ???
I still think they are different people and feel the man deserves an apology. He has conducted himself very well. It’s not fair to sweep him into the same boat just because he shares some of the same views.
91 – Lisa, I am trying to be objective as well, and my personal feelings are that I still have not been able to make sense out of all of this because I don’t feel like I have enough pieces yet to put the whole puzzle together.
I’m sorry. Now I will stop talking about it.
88-
Thanks Angela. Sometimes ‘mistakes’ is just a faster, easier word than saying ‘not the best course of action’ etc.
I know it can be a word that people don’t like.
But I don’t mean it in a tremendously negative way, just a designational way.
I know I’m not blaming anyone, because that’s not how I feel. I don’t feel blame should go to anyone. Not to any group. No to any individual. I actually don’t believe in blame for blame’s sake, and I’ve said that before.
But cause and effect always interest me. And I think they are important to look at.
93- Where are you getting your facts from glenn?
68 “I’d just like to propose the possibility that everyone involved from the Kims to Police to the State to SAR to the reporters did the what they believed was best at that time given their own perspective, and experience” and 82 “that is what all of us are doing all of the time”
I disagree… How many of our actions are motivated by and initiated “because we feel like it” without thinking it through clearly first? It takes conscious effort to do ones best at all things all the time. Very rare. Our world would be a different and a much better place if what you said were true.
(99) Same as everybody else here but I am assuming the JoCoSAR and RRR have an inside track to some of the story and I will at this point put more weight into the information provided by them and Brian Anderson and Det. Mike W. than I will The Oregonian.
Mike W. has shown us so much is wrong with the reporting-how can it be wrong for a lot of stuff around his involvement but then be correct for others for which we have not heard from directly.
I think this played out differently than The Oregonian articles suggest and how the GR represents. I think the OSSA will shed a lot of light on this dark subject.
(95) Yeah Paul you are right. I am sorry Charles Wilson. Good luck with your site.
Paul 95 I agree with you Paul after rereading 399 & 400 on page one. In fact the lengthy cmt 400 by Pac, seems to have been accepted by most (not all) of the following 30 or so comments despite James’ death being so fresh and startling at that time. Later Pac flipped out.
Mr. Wilson’s reply above at 85 is good enough for me.
The more responsible info that is on the net, the better chance better funding and training of SAR and better preparation by motorists will ensue.
I have a root canal scheduled for Thursday, about the same time as Mr. Wilson’s website is published– so I hope for success from both ventures.
100- I think you have a point there, Kip. I think there are two basic levels of our best normal behavior. They could be designated as ‘average level effort’, and ‘above average
level effort’, (when we are really putting all our effort into trying our best.)
Now people may argue differently, but I think most would agree that we are not all operating at ‘above average level effort’ all the time. We do so when we feel we need to – for a test, or a crisis, a challenge – we ‘rise to the occasion.
It does not seem possible to operate at ‘above average level’ all the time, because it would be too tiring. Even with Dutch Bros., it couldn’t be pulled off!
Good afternoon! Happy discussing! 🙂
102/Glenn: Thank you – so you know, you did have me second guessing myself until I saw those adjacent posts then I knew I was onto something….but Mapper said in 92 she would eat her sock ?? 🙂
Paul…I said I was sorry. Not wrong. I’m not eating my sock. Just trying to control myself for the benefit of the board. I will eat my sock and take a picture if I am wrong and Charles can laugh at me and post the picture to his website. Surely that will make up for all this if I am wrong.
103- Good Luck with your root canal, Barnadad! 🙂
p.s. Does thermal imaging interest you at all in terms of being an effective tool that with techinical improvements and increased affordability could be used to help find people more quickly and easily in the future? I think it could be very promising…
Hello all – I can’t really post right now, but just stopped in to let you know I’ll be trying to jump a bit later to clear up a few things. And Glenn, I’ll try to address your general eyewitness questions, plus info re: report variances, if I can. Good evening to all.
oops…sorry…jump IN a bit later. still working now.
[62, 68, 100, 104] – Interesting that ‘doing ones best’ issue has come up here. If we actually do our best with what is at hand at the moment considering what we know etc. then nobody can later really find fault. Even if later viewed as a mistake what else could have been the outcome? Nothing else. I’d rather do my best and make a mistake rather than not doing something for fear I was going to be blamed for making a mistake. Doing my best entails so much. Sometimes doing nothing is doing my best. If I don’t have the skill or aptitude to do something then “my best” could say pass on it. I could go on and on this topic! I’ve had the pleasure of exchanging emails with 2 joeduck posters and both could verify that my ending salutation was “bestous” …a word I coined to do with doing my best, thinking of their best, etc. Seems easier and sometimes more acceptable to say than “love”. But in effect both are one, I think.
Reminding people of this place we have to post ideas rather than discuss the case:
Improving travel safety in Bear Camp Road Area:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/rogue-river-road-safety/
I’d hoped people would review their own comments and post a summary of the suggestions here using “cut and paste”, but … not much luck with that 😦
Tara contacted me and ask that I view and comment here.
I want to see all the info from the OSSA report as that will be the most accurate. I don’t think I type well enough to give you all I have to comment about.
I do want to say that I beleive that most if not all of what the media reported is and was accurate.
Unquestionably there were a lot of judgement calls made that probably had significant bearing on the outcome of this event.
I do want to express that any comments I have made were in no way a critique of the volunteers of SAR.
I am saddened that there seems to be a position among some of the upper level people in SAR that the public just gets in the way in a search.
The truth is the public has many more eyes and ears to help narrow the possibilities.
It is also abvious that there are many “local folks” that know the roads much better than anyone in LE/SAR.
I was amazed throughout the early stages of this effort how often the roads and locations were misstated during press conferences.
I want to clarify one major point.
My brother and I never told Sara R. to “check those spur roads”. We specifically said we were only able to check the 34-8-36 road out about a mile on the sleds and we ran out of snow, and that we had seen tracks that were relatively fresh but had been snowed over. We told them the 34-8-36 needed to be checked fully as we COULDN’T check it on the sleds.
Sara R. and the Deputy with her said “they had it handled”
so we left.
I will likely have more comments after the OSSA report comes out.
My one other comment is that I feel it is very sad that James Kim died and that Kati and their daughters had to go through what must have been a living hell.
Having said that I beleive that they did have ample opportunities to turn around and head back to the highway, and chose to continue down into a very remote and obviously degrading road system in the middle of a storm and at night.
I guess sometimes you have to accept responsibility for your own decisions and no one can 100% protect you from yourself.
Hopefully everyone learns from their mistakes.
(106) Ditto…LOL, P.T. Barnum a man after my own heart!
John welcome to the blog and thanks so much for checking in and to Tara for inviting you over here!
Joe,
I have been meaning to post suggestions to the other place and have been avoiding it like homework! I do have intentions, and I believe I will.
Joe,
Thanks for the welcome.
I hope the OSSA report bring a lot of clarity to this ordeal. The early GR timeline leaves a lot to be desired as far as accuracy goes.
112 – John,
Welcome. I thought that was how it was about the road being cleared.
Do you think that the Kims ever reached or turned on FS23 at the intersection where the little sign that says “Coast” is, and where the hand painted words on the road are. Or did they take the right hand spur to 34-8-36 in the beginning?
I think you would know this and there has been some discussion.
Thank you for coming on to Joe Duck’s blog.
106/113: I’m totally lost at this point, am not sure what you’re both saying. Are you implying I’m a sucker? It sounds like you both are still in agreement that the two are one in the same…if so, I agree to disagree and leave it at that.
(112) Welcome John James…glad to hear your thoughts.
Yes Tara delivers yet again!
Yes, Welcome James, very interesting to hear your perspective too. Thanks.
Sorry! John James!
I beleive that at one point early after she was rescued Kati commented that they tried to take the fork to the left (the bc23 road) but only barely could get up it because of the snow. She said they backed down and then chose the right fork (the 34-8-36) and then headed to their stranding.
Just for clarity my odometer says they traveled about 24 miles from the intersection at Bear camp before getting stuck
I have animals to feed, I will check this later and reply to your thoughts.
John
Thank you for coming and sharing, Mr James. Welcome. 🙂
That is pretty much what was reported wasn’t it?
John,
I had never heard the part about the snow and not being able to get back up bc road…that makes so much sense.
Well, okay, I heard it, just not in those words, it just makes more sense about why they went down the logging road.
Message 122-John James
That is what I had originally thought from reports, then changed my mind with more info. It makes sense and explains her comment about backing down.
Do you mean 24 miles down the right hand road? Is this what you call the intersection in that post 122? And were they stranded prior to the turn off to Black Bar Lodge–your lodge, right? Was this mostly a down hill direction or mostly level?
Besides not turning back after backing down bc23, it confounds me that they would go 24 miles down the 34-8-36 road. If so and I haven’t misinterpreted what you said, I wonder if they thought they could get to the coast that way.
Off to my mom’s 93rd birthday party with cookies in hand.
John James, thanks for the clarifications. The Portland Oregonian article that quoted you telling Sarah Rubrecht to have the road cleared figured prominently in my analysis of events. I hope that, once we have our website up and running (see my comment #33 here), that you will read it and offer your thoughts. My top priority is to have an accurate view of the events themselves.
I struggled with whether the Kims backed down Bear Camp Road and then took the spur, or whether they paused at the fork, saw the fourth snow warning, took the spur and got stuck somewhere along the spur. Either way, they’d have taken the logging road by conscious decision rather than because of inaccurate signs.
As I reviewed the media accounts, I concluded that they didn’t back down Bear Camp Road but rather down the spur after they got stuck. It’s a little unclear to me, but my best guess for the moment is that they went farther down the spur than where they ended up, ran into snow and then backed down to where they parked.
What’s your reading of that, and what is the basis for your reading of it?
Finally, when you read the narrative you will see that it criticizes both the Kims and Sarah Rubrecht. It does not attempt to say who was more negligent, only that both parties were. It also singles out a number of participants for praise, among them being the SAR volunteers and yourself for trying hard to get that road searched.
We have various categories of judgments. For whatever it’s worth, you wound up in our highest one, “admirable.” I’d definitely want you as my neighbor, that’s for damn sure. Happy trails, friend.
112- Thank you so much John James! That helps clear up those questions very well!
And thank you so much Tara, for inviting him here! 🙂
It really helps to have all sides of the story!
Oops I need to rewrite something:
As I reviewed the media accounts, I concluded that they didn’t back down Bear Camp Road after being stuck there. It’s a little unclear to me, but my best guess for the moment is that they went farther down the spur than where they ended up, ran into snow and then backed down to where they parked.
Okay, I’m going to re-write it this way:
John James, thanks for the clarifications. The Portland Oregonian article that quoted you telling Sarah Rubrecht to have the road cleared figured prominently in my analysis of events. I hope that, once we have our website up and running (see my comment #33 here), that you will read it and offer your thoughts. My top priority is to have an accurate view of the events themselves.
I struggled with whether the Kims backed down Bear Camp Road and then took the spur, or whether they paused at the fork, saw the fourth snow warning, took the spur and got stuck somewhere along the spur. Either way, they’d have taken the logging road by conscious decision rather than because of inaccurate signs.
As I reviewed the media accounts, I concluded that they took the logging road on purpose; went farther down the spur than where they ended up; ran into snow; then backed down to where they parked.
What’s your reading of that, and what is the basis for your reading of it?
Finally, when you read the narrative you will see that it criticizes both the Kims and Sarah Rubrecht. It does not attempt to say who was more negligent, only that both parties were. It also singles out a number of participants for praise, among them being the SAR volunteers and yourself for trying hard to get that road searched.
We have various categories of judgments. For whatever it’s worth, you wound up in our highest one, “admirable.” I’d definitely want you as my neighbor, that’s for damn sure. Happy trails, friend.
I assume that the driver, although in a four wheel drive vehicle, was not really all that familiar with rugged terrain and extreme conditions. He might not have been skilled in negotiating the correct route at that critical intersection. Had he known that it was ‘coastal route’ versus ‘maze of nowhere roads untravelled by anyone’ he would have probably stopped there at the intersection or atleast near it. He might have been able to sweep away some snow from the roadway or put some debris from the car onto the road. He didn’t attempt these extreme measures because he had no way of knowing that this was a critical juncture.
Signage? Maps? I don’t know if anything would have helped.
Its real difficult to see the results of all these separate items that went wrong. One wrong turn, one unwise yielding to the desperate temptation to press onward, one junk food item not grabbed enroute, one skimpy blanket left behind …and things go seriously wrong. Stopping at the intersection would have been sufficient to have saved their lives. The traffic would have been sparse, perhaps non-existent, but the search would have been on that road.
I wonder most about the CAP… Civil Air Patrol. They were never used and I think they were never contacted because they use ‘fixed wing aircraft’ that fly as opposed to ‘rotary wing aircraft’ that “beat the air into submission”. Oh, okay… no more aviation related jokes!!
Given the location where the vehicle actually was located and also considering the ‘fateful intersection’… I think fixed wing aircraft would have been useful despite SAR types saying they are not so good in dense foliage.
[131] – more negligent is a charged phrase. It implies inattention to one’s business. I don’t buy that. Not sufficient evidence at this point …mainly conjecture.
😀 ATTENTION NEW PEOPLE 😀
Problems searching the site? Do this:
1) Click on the Kim Story link at top of *every* page at the blog.
2) Click to the page or item you want.
3) Use “Control F” or other browser search to look for the words or commenter you want. Hit next to cycle through comments or words.
[123]-Hello John James… Can you tell us if any government agency has asked to or has interviewed you in connection with the current SAR investigations?
I wanted to quote one of Kati’s recent posts because I think it is very telling of some of what she and Penelope are going through, and I thought some of the language she used was very interesting. [But remember it is a review of a store.] I think that while this is not the time and place for her to tell her whole story, she can still be included for those interested:
“Not long ago, I noticed a change of signage – cuter, oranger, and much more inviting. The window displays have also improved. I heard whisperings of a change of ownership, but hadn’t wandered in to check it out for myself. Recently my daughter’s treasured pink umbrella was damaged beyond repair. Since I’m without vehicle, I’ve been dreading rainy morning walks to pre-school.”
“The sales lady (new owner?) was so sweet and full of energy I wanted to take her home and call her “grandma.”
The highlight of my trip was when my daughter chose the green umbrella over the lavender or pink. She said it was because green is my favorite color, and she wanted to make me happy. Then she asked “Mom, are you sad that you don’t have a husband anymore?.” When I told her I was, she said “Don’t worry, I’ll take care of you now.”
“We’ll be back soon. Plus, I have _tons_ of used baby clothes, and it looks like I won’t be having another one anytime soon!”
It just doesn’t make any sense that they got on the logging roads (BLM maze) on purpose. If they went up 23 at first, but changed their mind, I can’t think of a reason they would opt to go back to the fork and take the BLM side as opposed to just giving up and heading back the way they came.
Also, if they were on the BLM side on purpose, I can’t think of any reason they would continue 24 miles on it.
John James has been quoted as saying he has had to redirect countless people who have gone the wrong way at the fork. Why would the Kims be any different? I know what Kati said about backing down and going the other way, but I think she’s talking about in the maze, not at the fork.
Anyway, I don’t suppose it really matters.
John James, when you say you checked a mile on the sleds, you mean you checked a miles from *where*? From the fork at 23? From your lodge access road? Somewhere else?
Also, SAR personnel have posted on here that there were tracks *everywhere* on those logging roads. I take it you disagree with that?
Thanks.
what’d i miss?
Charles Wilson, #27, I totally disagree with you on what parts of that story are from Kati and which parts are narrative from other sources. And I’m a pretty reasonable reader.
Rodney,
I also think that is possible (just went the wrong way as it would be very easy to do, having seen the intersection). I dont completley understand what happened there….but can kinda understand the logic of going down the logging road even if they knew it was a logging road. I guess its true i havn’t paid as much attention to this part and have just taken the reports as they are and havn’t read much into it, as it is the bigger picture I focus on.
Welcome back, by the way! been awhile since I saw your name.
Lisa.
Wow, thanks for posting that. Poor Penelope, its terrible to feel that sense of responsibility when you know one of your parents is unhappy. I’m amazed Kati is even able to do the things she is doing. I’d probably be too depressed to move.
hey mapper, Ill join you eating that sock if youre wrong…….
Tara,
at least I will be in good company if that day ever comes!
Ill bring my dutch bros…
138- Rodney G
I know you asked those questions of John James, and those are excellent questions!
I think when he says they checked a mile on the sleds, he means from the fork. But I hope he’ll come back to answer that himself!
139- tara, is that an understatement…?/!
[you don’t have to answer that! :)]
137 – The only reason that makes sense to me is the recent thought I posted. The warning signs say “Bear Camp FS23 May be closed…” but there are no signs, as far as I know, about the spurs being closed. Perhaps they thought they would be a way around the closure. No other explanation makes sense. The only other possible reason I can think of is that they thought they were on the right road when they went to the right at the fork. However, some people seem to be saying that that is wrong.
For those interested, poster “JoCoSAR” mades statements about many tracks the logging roads on page 2 #875 and page 3 #66. She also posted her account of the converstation between Sara and John James on page 2 #887.
Finally, and semi-unrelated, she posted on page 2 #829 that the cell phone map only narrowed the search to a 26 mile wedge. It’s my understanding that there was line-of-sight information on the map that narrowed it much more than the full wedge, right?
(135)Not a blogger so bear with me. Answering to Kip, I definitely spent quite a bit of time with two Detectives who were interviewing for the upcoming OSSA report.
I do also want to say that the intersection is confusing and loads of people annually make the mistake and go the wrong way.
The thing that shocked me was how far they went. I don’t know of anyone who has driven that far.
I am not kidding you, this road steadily degrades to the point that the brush is slapping the middle of your windshield for a long way before the Kims decided to stop.
When I drove the CNN crew out to the location it blew me away that they continued on that road in that weather.
I do also feel that the true Hero in that whole event was Katy Kim, how amazing is that lady to feed her children from her own body to save their live.
I want her for my Mother.
She is awesome!!
141- [Yes, Mapper, I know. I did the same kinds of things for my mom and the rest of my family. I can remember trying to cheer everyone up and comfort my mom starting around age three.]
John James, so nice of you to share your info. Once you take the right (incorrect) fork into the BLM roads, is it easy to stay on 34-8-36? From the maps (online), which is all I have, it looks like you’d have to guess correctly on anywhere from 3 to 8 different “forks” on the BLM roads themselves just to stay on 34-8-36. Are there signs indicating that road number? I’m just amazed at how far they travelled on that road as well. I mean, we don’t know that they stayed on 34-8-36 to the final spot of the car, but it looks like they might have. Thanks again.
(148) Hi John, I didn’t realize you were the one that took the CNN crew out there. How did that come about? Did CNN call you or did you call them?
I am glad you did it…the coverage was interesting.
148- Yes, I think Kati did an amazing and remarkable job!
I remember she stated that one of the reasons James felt he had to leave the car and try to get help Saturday was that both of the children were crying from hunger.
It will be very interesting when we get to hear her side of the story and why they went so far down the road. My guess is they couldn’t believe how bad it was/thought that they didn’t really have enough gas to backtrack, and kept hoping they’d get to a better place ahead, even just to stop and wait for help.
Just a thought…is it possible they thought the road might lead to a lodge? I am just building on lisa’s thought that maybe they might find something ahead
as, this is common in my part of the world…if you just keep going you will run into something soon.
[148]..Thanks John James very much for responding. Another question I’ll try. You know the Windy Creek drainage well I’m sure. Would you care to speculate just how far James traveled down the depression from the road that 1st day, Saturday, before night time fell? I’d think it would have been impossible for him to make headway in that morass in the dark, wouldn’t you agree?
Kip, (#133), when the website is up and running you will see that I carefully define terms. I am aware of the high emotion here caused, in part, by the use of charged terminology. One thing I did was go to a dictionary, and in the narrative (which of course no one here has read yet) try very hard to use words literally rather than figuratively.
From Merriam-Webster’s On-Line Dictionary:
Negligent: Failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances.
At this juncture, based on everything I have read and the considerable thought I put into it, both Dee and me think the Kims and Sarah Rubrecht were negligent.
I used other terms, too: Flawed, Irrelevant, Admirable, Praiseworthy, Uncertain. Out of a spirit of accommodation, equanimity and a touch of mercy, I stayed away from terms like Reckless, Heroic, Crazy, Monstrous and Psychopathic. You give a little, you get a little 🙂
You will see that some people fell into both positive and negative categories. This reflects the human reality that people are often a very mixed bag. We thought some aspects of the Kims behavior were negligent, and other aspects were admirable. We thought some aspects of Rubrecht’s behavior were negligent, and some aspects were praiseworthy.
I’m whipping Dee hard to get that site up and running, and she working her fingers to the quick — just like I did last weekend, I keep reminding her. 🙂
Rodney G (#140), then we’ll just have to disagree. You say to-MAY-to, I say to-MAH-to, but let’s not call the whole thing off, alright? 🙂
By the way, admirable is not faint praise. Merriam Webster’s On-Line Dictionary:
Admirable: Deserving the highest esteem
I want to respond to the comment someone referred to by JOCOSAR i think 886.
JOCOSAR claims I changed my story a bunch of times.
JOCOSAR is a liar.
I will testify under oath as to my converstion with the deputy and Sara R.
My brother was there also when we talked to them.
We will take a polygraph.
I wonder if Sara R. would do the same.
Her story has changed repeatedly.
I have tried to be diplomatic in my comments about her, I had hoped that maybe she just misunderstood that we told her we only checked the road a mile out because we ran out of snow.
There seems only to be two possible explanations for her story, either she misunderstood or she is covering her rearend for not checking the road.
My brother and I have been ripped in the local Letters to the Editor in the Courier by her Father. I haven’t responded because there is no point.
#155 Charles, yep, no problem. Just sayin’ that reasonable people can read it differently. And I’m only reading it for clues about the route taken. I have no stake, no opinion, and no interest whatsoever as far as defending or questioning anyone involved. Truly.
148 “I do also feel that the true Hero in that whole event was Katy Kim, how amazing is that lady to feed her children from her own body to save their live.
I want her for my Mother.
She is awesome!!”
Thanks for your comment, I don’t want to take anything from James; but it is true, Kati is an awesome mother. I think it will be most apparent when she finally does tell the story. Be sure to have a box of Kleenex tissue nearby, you’ll need it.
(155) Could you please give us your analysis of the word hero and its definition in Websters?
Do you think James or Kati Kim relate at all to the definition?
(148) I don’t know that anyone is sure exactly where he entered the drainage. I know the OPS maps that they made were very innacurate on many occasions.
I suspect he only got half way down the first day he entered it (maybe saturday) and the rest of the way sunday.
No o0ne will ever know.
It is a steep harsh brushy gorge and tough in good conditions
142/tara/mapper – You’re going to need a stockpot to make stew if people keep joining up. 🙂 Still confused about what you were saying at 106.
John James – would really love to hear answer to the 2nd part of 138. Also, could you comment on how quickly, in terms of miles, the BLM fork road degrades ?…in other words, in your opinion, would they have known fairly quickly they were on something a far cry from a route to the coast ?
I returned to work to take one of my colleagues told me that some folks in this part of New Mexico and nearby Colorado where roads have recently and frequently been closed to due to bad weather and deep snow have taken to packing emergency precautionary supplies and are now calling them KIM KITS.
@John James… John, after meeting up with Sara and the deputy, on Friday Dec 1st I think it was, did they or any official connected with the SAR effort subsequently contact you looking for advice, information, suggestions, …?
I apprecate the opportunity to ask you these questions but if you cannot or don’t answer I accept that 100%.
In answer to (138) I only saw one set of car not ruck sized tracks that went out the 34-8-36. They had been snowed over but were very obvious. It had snowed prior to the Kims going out the 34-8-36 and it snowed for two days after the stopped out there. The only other tracks that JoCo sar would have seen were those and my sleds for 1 mile That is if they even went out there the day I saw them up on the hill
163 Kati’s dad – good to see you again.
How does Kati feel, if at all, about the media firestorm that descended upon this story? Have you told her how much opinion it has generated here at JD and what strong emotions it has evoked in people? I understand if it hasn’t come up.
165 should have said TRUCK sized tracks
Glenn, you will see when you read the narrative that I made quite an effort to avoid extremes of any sort. From Merriam Webster’s On-Line Dictionary.
heroic: supremely noble or self-sacrificing
Different people will see things differently of course, but we didn’t see any heroic people in those events. On the plus side, the highest we went was admirable, again in the literal sense of the term.
I will add that many of these words have multiple definitions. I have arrogated to myself the sovereign right to define terms as I see fit when I am writing something. My only obligation is to give the definitions in hopes of avoiding misunderstandings. 🙂
John James, I don’t know if you overlooked my post 131, maybe because I garbled it just before that, but I’d be interested in your response. I’m not doubting your account of anything. Quite the opposite, believe me. I’m really interested in your take on the questions, because I want to get it right.
Katis Dad
I am sorry that I wasn’t able to follow my instincts and go home and get my other truck that can go further in the snow.
We had my brothers truck and the sled trailer and couldn’t take it out the road.
Every single day I regret not pursuing this myself. I should never have let someone else make me feel that I didn’t have a right to be searching for them.
Your daughter is truly the epitomy of selflessness and I applaud her heroism.
Please know that I have huge regrets that i know I could have saved James’ life had I only pursued my hunch
Paul, I have many thoughts on the subject as you might guess. I just dont want to discuss them here. I do not think your a sucker.
I will eat my sock if I am wrong. If charles is not pac, I will eat Taras sock if pac and charles are not in kahoots.
mapper, Ill soak it in Dutch Bros, just in case… see, Im open minded!
KIP 164
No one ever contacted myself or my brother. They repeated to us at least three times the day I saw them that “they had it Handled”
(168) Charles,
I understand how you want soverign rights to changes thing that meet your agenda. In any event I wasn’t expecting you to take the right to change the actual word I was asking about. The word I asked about is Hero. Here is the definition for Hero from Webster.com.
Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: ‘hir-(“)O
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hErOs
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work
b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL
So I will ask you again. Do either James or Kati Kim fit any of the above definitions of the word. Of course with your sovereign rights to pick what you want you just might be tempted to choose definition 1a, 1b or even 3 but let’s see how common sense applies to your selection of particular definition.
Forgive me for pushing the point. I just would like some clarity on it. Thanks.
(173) John did you miss my question in (151)?
163- That’s great, Kati’s Dad.
Last night I asked Det. Mike W if he thought it might be
possible to having something like a ‘Kim Act’ that would require all cell phone and credit card contracts to require emergency contact information. Unfortunately, he didn’t think that exact legislation would be likely. Hopefully maybe some other related legislation will. But we want all the good that possibly can, to come out of this…
164- Good question Kip. I think the issue of finding how SAR and locals who really know the area can work together with more efficiency and respect, is so important.
157- I think it’s great that you are offering to take a lie detector test, John. I believed in your account all along.
I get overwhelmed with the way these posts come across so please forgive my lack of skill at blogging.
I will try to post a Google Earth map I put together that show key waypoints. You would be shocked at the distances as most the maps you have seen in the media have been wrong
John do you own the Black Bar Lodge? If so, I owe you an apology I called your lodge the Black Bear Lodge like 50 times in the beginning – someone here – I think it was Paul was kind enough to point it out to me. Sorry about that.
Wouldn’t shock me John James 🙂
Rodney G (#158), you’ve illustrated the hazard of implied attribution. What’s logical to one person might be so to another person. Reporters constantly face this balancing act. I think the AP leans quite a bit toward step-by-step attribution, but there’s no arguing that in the article I cited the attribution is implied.
The only thing that would clear up the issue, and several others surrounding the Kims’ actions on the night of Nov. 25-26, is a detailed interview with her by a careful, informed reporter.
I remember conducting one such interview with the wife of a guy who had been killed in the collapse of the Hyatt hotel in Kansas City back in the early 1980s. Reached her on the phone in her hospital bed and had a respectful but thorough conversation that went through all the details including the gory ones. I was nervous as a cat, but it turned out well and I got a very nice letter from her later about how much she appreciated being able to tell her story.
If Kati Kim gives an interview, I hope she gives it to someone who is fully informed of the situation and will politely ask questions that will clear up the ambiguities that remain in the accounts thus far. My narrative lists several of those ambiguities, as well as questions for other participants in the events.
171 – Good enough, other more compelling topics at hand & we agree about far more than we disagree anyway. I will offer that Tara, being the self-sufficient independent type, will likely insist on downing the sock herself. 🙂
(177) John maybe you can answer a question I have been struggling with for a while…how close is the area where the Kim’s were found to Curry County? I have found a discrepancy in one of the timelines that I am trying to resolve. Thanks for your local knowledge it is a big help.
glenn, Yes I took the CNN crew out there to do the story for CNN Presents.
It aired on the Paula Zahn show and Anderson Cooper. If you saw it I am the the OKIE looking guy not the Movie star looking guy.
3 I have driven Bear Camp from GP to the coast about 30 times. I’ve almost taken that “spur” road about 27 of them. It’s the instictive way to go…the nature flow of the roads. Only the painted COAST arrow lets you know what way to go which shoots off to the left and up a fairly steep hill. The right way doesn’t seem right.
Also, I have daughter who yells the whole time on that road. She even refuses to call it “bear camp” –she calls it “death trap” road. I’ve also seen personally 3 cars go off the edge–in which case it is virtually impossible to spot the car.
Google Earth is great…but unless you’ve been there you won’t have a clear picture of the situation–which is dire.
There are also many other spurs and spurs of spurs that someone could easily get lost on. Had James and Kati known the extent of the situation they surely would not have tried that road. BUT, it IS deceptive when looking on many maps and the warnings are not very deterring, but detouring rather.
(183) John thanks for the clarification. If you would so induldge me, did you call them to come out? How did you know who to contact? I have always wondered that. Thanks.
John, dont put yourself down for not realizing what would happen. You did the right thing.
I have also learned the hard way, to follow my hunches (though they are not even always right, so its still hard to know when to follow them for sure). You did what is right and had no way of knowing Sara would misunderstand, or disregard your words.
The 34-8-36 road is within a mile of the Jos. county Curry county line. In fact the road to the immediate west is called county line road.
(184) Thanks for the information my independent albeit non-scientific study with the photographs confirms your real world experience.
thanks for the comments mapper. I feel like crap on a daily basis thinking I had the chance to save a mans life and couldn’t
178/Glenn – easy mistake to make, there are certainly plenty of black bear in that canyon, as John J would 2nd. The lodge is named for the nearby rapid and falls, Upper Black Bar and Lower Black Bar (falls).
(187) Wow, last I heard it was about 5 miles away. Within a mile now I am really puzzled why Curry County suspended their search. I am still trying to piece together that part of the decision process. Thanks for the input James.
I was made aware of the kims by a blogger on here that is a friend rogueriverat78. She e-mailed me about them being missing. When I contacted JOCO sheriffs on Dec.1st it was just a hunch nothing solid
glenn, when you read the narrative you will see that my labels are adjectives and not nouns. So the word “heroic” would be the right word for me to define in the context of the narrative. If you choose to regard any of the participants as a hero, or their actions as heroic, it’s your prerogative to do so.
170- John James, that is so beautiful. I am just someone who was also deeply touched by this story. And what you said just adds to it. Thank you so much.
166 Paul, Kati is innundated with media contacts wanting her to give her story. Just today a CNN representative called me today trying to get through to her. They also are trying to get through to Spencer Kim especially after his very recent Washington Post letter.
For now Kati as far as I can tell is mostly preoccupied with caring for her girls, see post 136. I had the great privilege of taking on a Fatherly role for nearly the whole month of December. Child Care providers usually get little recognition, but is a demanding chore with young kids.
Kati is also dealing with the energy sapping agony of the normal grief process. I have only to look at my wife Sandy every day as a barometer of the toll that takes. Sandy loved James very much. He always respectfully addressed her as MOM. His death has been hard on Sandy. She told me one day shortly after he was found, “How can not love the man who loved my daughter so much.” James was overflowing with noble qualities.
no apologizes about the name of the lodge. You are not the first to mis state it and I am sure not the last. It would be easier to rename it LOL
(193) Charles sorry you didn’t answer it but I understand why you wouldn’t. My question wasn’t in regard to your narrative which I am eager to read but more toward the technicality of a word definition and how you perceive the use of such.
[155]…Charles Wilson — Before I posted comment [133] I looked up ‘negligent’ in Merriam-Websters: “negligent implies inattention to one’s duty or business”. I see absolutely no evidence indicating Sara or James were inattentive to their ‘duties’. Mistakes were made, possibly. But not deliberate neglect, that’s a powerful ugly charge imo that in NO way fits either character in question.
So Paul, Maggie and I are willing to eat socks if we are wrong. What are you going to do if you are wrong? 🙂
(196) John you are the owner right? I know there is another John involved in this saga as well…just trying to keep them straight. Thanks.
John you probably didn’t realize what you got yourself into by coming here. 🙂 You are someone a lot of us have wanted to speak to for some time. Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to keep thing straight. Appreciate your help and answers.
Tara,
Maggie is still on the fence, but when she makes up her mind, I would be she would be willing to eat her own sock too.
glenn,
Yes the lodge is mine. The other John is definitely an amazing guy. He took his own personal helicopter burning his own fuel and pursued his hunch and ultimately is the one who found Kati and the girls. His name is John Rachor
202 sorry, I meant mapper… 🙂
glenn,
We can blame Tara for my presence, Just kidding.
I have tried to keep it low key out of respect for the Kims.
202. sorry I would be willing to *bet* …
137 & others – Also, if they were on the BLM side on purpose, I can’t think of any reason they would continue 24 miles on it.
I wasn’t there, have no idea if it was raining or snowing at the point they drove down the BLM road after backing down BC, or how far into the BLM road it begins to degrade to a really rough road, but I wonder if they drove that far because the road degraded to a road so narrow they felt they couldn’t safely do a k-turn or back up to the intersection, and kept going hoping for a spot to turn around which didn’t come until they had gone as far as where the car was found. Any locals think this is a possibility?
170 Thanks for your post, most kind of you to say what you did.
Gayle, You may be right about the turning around aspect. There are wider spots evry 1/4 mile or so but if it was foggy who knows
(205) Im sneaking off to go change my email address…. 🙂
192- I would like to know HOW I notified you when I DON’T EVEN HAVE YOUR EMAIL!~!!!!
199- Am more confident than ever they are not one-in-the-same, but socks seem kinda extreme, esp mine. I will write a humorous, self-skewering confessional parody song. Maggie can attest to my abilities to comply.
Katis Dad,
I would love to express verbally to you the emotion I felt when I stood at the site where your family spent nine days. I am a father of an 8 year old daughter and I literally cried thinking of what Kati and the girls went through out there.
That was the most emotional moment of my life second only maybe to my daughters birth
Hi there RRR! Welcome back. What’s new ? Any word on when the report might be released ?
(205) John that is funny…Tara something. Now my next question is a doozie and I mean to ask it very respectively. I am following a set of questions that I have been compiling for all the people in this saga that I get chance to ask.
In any event, here is the question.
Did you receive any compensation, expenses or financial benefit from CNN or any other media organization?
If you didn’t I would like a definite No please. I think this point is very important. Thanks for taking the question.
Katis dad.
I would love to meet your family some day and tell them face to face I am sorry I couldn’t help more.
sorry Rogueriverrat78, I have a gal that has worked for me for 10 years at Black Bar that has the same e-mail but it is with a different ISP apparently. Sorry for the confusion
John James, the person working on the other website tells me she’s getting close to being able to put it up, but in the meantime I will tell you that we identified Bob Rachor as among the “admirable” people in this. He saved three lives. Doesn’t get much better than that.
Hhhmm what a conscience….
Glenn,
I did bill CNN for guiding them out there and using my vehicle. I would have done it for free but they are a huge company and can afford it.
I decided to donate the $550.00 to donate the money to the JO CO SAR even before I took them out there.
When I started to hear Sara R comments about me I rethought my position and contacted the local BLM road engineer Jim Roper and offered instead to donate the money towards some better signage at the imfamous intersection of the BC23 and the 34-8-36. I have also talked to several of my outfitters and local guides and they want to donate also.
We hope this can be done in the name of James Kim
Glenn,
I also haven’t received a check yet but they sent me paperwork
(220) John thank you for you answer. Did you end up donating the money?
Paul. I am looking forward to your song and dance.
I will say my best friend is a contentious reporter. I would invite her here as I believe she would take issue with many of charles journalistic viewpoints (no matter who he is or was here before). But, she has no stake in this so probably wouldn’t care, and has other things to do.
I admire her very much as a writer and we usually see eye to eye about integrity. heck maybe I’ll send her an email and tell her to look, but she would probably find it most funny and interesting to make fun of my geography major like hobbies.
but anyway, paul, yes we usually do agree, so whats this one little thing!?!! no big deal!
192 & 211 was made aware of the kims by a blogger on here that is a friend rogueriverat78. She e-mailed me about them being missing.
The way I read this was that a friend of RR78 contacted Mr James.
218…we identified Bob Rachor
Isn’t his name John Rachor? My bad if I am wrong.
Again sorry but apparently the RRR78 on here is not my friend. Rogueriverrat78 at a differnt ISP notified me.
sorry for the coincidence
His name Is JOHN Rachor
John,
I must say, that seems an excellent way to donate some money. I sure do hope that they use it that way! 🙂
The BLM will be looking at this in Feb-Mar. I hope it will be a worthwhile effort and maybe save some other travelers
Glenn #215, that’s a funny question. The reason it’s funny to me is because when I was a print reporter I saw people do unbelievably crazy things to get themselves on television. I still remember the day when I was interviewing some guys indoors. They were in short-sleeved shirts (at the days of setting the thermostat at 74 degrees!) on a day when it was 15 degrees below zero without the wind chill outside.
Well, the TV crews came in and said the light inside wasn’t good enough and could they come outside and talk? Took ’em about 20 seconds to get out there. They didn’t even put their jackets on. It was like a crackhead reaching for another hit off the pipe. Later on in my career I saw it all the time.
So I’d be pretty surprised if John got paid by CNN. The TV guys don’t have to pay ordinary people. Celebrities will be paid. I could imagine Kati Kim being offered money for her story, but not John James.
John, I guess I’d better be crystal clear on this one. I am in no way, shape or form even beginning to think of starting to suggest that you mugged for the cameras. I saw you on CNN, and I was genuinely moved by your anguish. So my comments about TV appearances are general and have nothing to do with you specifically. It’s just that when I saw that question I remembered those guys standing out in the snow in 15 degrees below zero in their short sleeves. The wind was blowing, too. You had to be there. 🙂
John is there any way any of us can donate to improved signage? Where would be send a check and to whom should it be made out?
Gayle #225, you’re right. My bad.
170 – Mr. James, this posting along with your other comments made here tonight, has made me an admirer. Please don’t beat yourself up over “what ifs”. Everyone involved in this tragedy are only human.
BTW, you are doing just fine as a first time blogger. Thank you for coming here to answer our questions.
(230) Charles thanks for your post. I have been wrestling with this for a while. I have the same feeling about being paid. I might be wrong but I believe John James had to reach out to CNN to offer his services with an upfront stipulation to get paid for his time. John maybe you can elaborate?
John James thank you so much for coming here, telling us your story, and answering our questions. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your being here. It is like a blog dream come true for me to have you be here. I have actually been wishing for some time that you would come here. I really wanted to hear your story confirmed, because I had a strong feeling it was true, and it was being questioned. If only we could get all the most important parties involved (other than Kati), it would help so much to give us a more complete picture of events, and ultimately be more helpful in terms of trying to solve problems and make improvements.
So John James, that was a fee for services rendered not just for giving an interview, correct? Kind of falls in the cracks, I guess. I’m a bit surprised they’d do it, but then if you squired ’em around I guess it makes sense.
The BLM is also going to change the signs that say “Bear Camp 23 May be closed due to snow” Stating next year they will
say “Bear Camp 23 IS closed for winter travel”
213 John, I try not to write too much in a public way of some of the things Kati told me out of respect for the fact that it is her story to tell. Nonetheless, I will go ahead now relate that when Kati and I watched the CNN special together and the camera showed showed the site of where all the dirty diapers had been tucked under the car and area of the burned tires, Kati said to me, “We thought we were going to get into trouble for making such a mess out there. James swore he was going to come back and personally clean up the site.” Like, I said a bit ago, any person with a real heart will need a box of Kleenex nearby when they hear the true fact of this most bittersweet tale.
Some folks can argue that James might not rise to their own definitions of heroic, but I can state without equivocation: James Kim was thoroughly imbued with noble qualities.
237 – THAT is welcome news!…hope there is no flipping involved in that process, because we’ve seen how well that works.
One other thing, glenn. After I left journalism, the shoe was on the other foot and I often got interviewed by the media. Was on TV a bunch of times, too. I hated being on TV. The lights really freaked me out, and I just hated looking at myself. For the life of me I don’t understand why anyone would want to be on TV, but then I’ve never understood why people would want to use meth, either.
220- Your going to donate money you earned for taking CNN up to re-trace the Kim’s step…What money of your own are you going to put forth towards the “donation”……Turning your CNN money in for donations is like winning the church bingo jack pot and then donating it for a strip bar to be built….It just dosen’t sound right nor like your putting “your” money into a good cause…Just as like Oh I got some extra cash I can spill it now to look good
Gayle I do beleive that you will be able to donate to the sign fund. I will contact Jim from the BLM and find out if and how you could do that. I will repost here and give you info
[195] … Kati’s Dad — “James was overflowing with noble qualities.” … A most beautiful thing to say and feel and see in your son-in-law !!
237 0- Now that is really good to hear. Thank you, John, for sharing.
Good evening, everyone. Glenn – DId you ever get an answer from anyone in LE regarding eyewitness information, etc.?
[238] And you know him better than any of us, which is another reason why all this talk of whether he was a hero or not by strangers disgusts me. Who are we to judge when we know so little.
RRR78 give me a break I was the one up there looking for them not you. How about you donate something other than your cynicism
234- Glenn, I don’t think there is anything wrong with him being paid for that.
I hope you’re not trying to make an issue out of it, because I don’t think that should be an issue.
I need money. If I could have helped the media in a similar case after the fact I would have offered and or accepted money to do so.
I think you are possibly being coached by the other side, and I think it’s wrong.
241 A most inappropriate and offensive comment in my opinion, perhaps you should take a blog break.
Charles Wilson,
I was approached by one of my outfitters to take CNN up there because I know the roads better than just about anyone. I did make it clear from the outset that the compensation would be required and that i intended to donate it.
247- Oh I donate more then my share…more then you would ever know
(245) Hi Mike! Lots of posts I know. No I have not. I would appreciate your insight. Thanks. Also I have some questions for you do you have time to talk a call from me tomorrow?
I am glad to hear that
IMHO, there is nothing wring with John James being paid for services (not the interview) by CNN and then donating the money as he plans to do. I see no difference between that money and the same amount earned for services from any other source.
254. (wrong) sorry for typo
Sorry I’m a bit behind this evening, but wanted to address a couple of things people have asked about – (176) I may have misunderstood the ? last night to mean could legislation be passed to *require* emerg. contact info to be included in CC and cell acct. info – still don’t think so. But doesn’t mean a push for CC and cell cos. to *allow* voluntary customers to maybe pre-authorize verified LE access during emergency situations.
Also, a few people have referred to the “restaurant” (I’m presuming the Denny’s in Roseburg) refusal to cooperate – that’s never been the case. Each of the people at Denny’s was terrific, and provided info as soon as they were able. Not sure why the confusion, but just wanted to clear that up. They were great.
254. agree
Thanks for being here John. And I agree your doing great for being a new to this (blog), and again, I really hope you dont beat yourself up too much. In fact your probably one of the only people now that can say they have made a change, to get those sings fixed.
[248] & [254] ….ditto !
Thanks for the support you guys
I have offered to go up there and dig the post hole for the sign and put my labor into seeing that it is followed up on.
Maybe Kati and the girls will be emotionally healed enough to come and see the signage improved and possibly dedicated
I would like to clarify something. These things only. I have never spoken meanly about John James on this blog. In the comment referenced above when I spoke about Mr. James, I was defending him, not attacking him. I have never blamed anyone here at all! I have not changed my story about anything. I have not said a word to ANYONE here for quite some time!!! I have been sitting here quietly watching in frustration, not being allowed to clarify a damn thing! To have someone come on here now and attack me is wrong. John, I have never ever done anything to you personally. If you remember correctly, it was not Sara R. that you had a conversation with, it was the “other deputy” that was in the vehicle at that time. Sara R. was not rude to you in any way, she was quiet.
John, I think that your input and local knowledge here is valuable. I appreciate you being here, but get real John, this is not about you and I. I am not sure why you have so much hatred built up about this.
I am sorry for this posting but enough is enough! It is getting entirely too personal! You certainly won’t catch me doing that here.
John, if I could meet you in person, I don’t know what I’d do, shake your hand or give you a hug, maybe both. I am glad to have met you here. Thank you so much for posting, and I hope you’ll feel free and welcome to return here.
Whoa!…kaboom
As a guy who’s been lost on that road a few times myself, and with my own girls, I’d sure like to see that sign get posted!
(248) Lisa you really are out in left field on this one. No one is coaching me. I am trying to get to the bottom of several things here. You should see the questions I have for “the other side” – can’t even believe you said that!
Do I think it is right for John James to take money? I really don’t know. But I think it is highly strange for someone who states they are guilt ridden and ask themselves over and over again – I should have done more, etc… to then somehow want to call CNN and offer his services for pay. Whether John James needs money or not is irrelevant – it speaks to a very important point he makes:
He stated yep the media pretty much got it right see post (112), etc…he is on their payroll and his opinion is biased and we all need to take it with a grain of salt.
How soon you forget how critical I have been of Sara R. and Brian Anderson? I am no ones puppet.
As I said to RRR in a post the other day do not under estimate my tenacity to get to the truth.
Maybe Mike W. can shed some light on this…how do Detectives view opinion from a witness that has been paid and they are commenting on the person that has paid them?
In addition to being appropriate to get compensated for expenses, $550.00 is a pretty minimal amount of money, at least where I’m from.
[256] .. Det. Mike — Each of the people at Denny’s was terrific, and provided info as soon as they were able…. They were great”
Thanks for that Mike. I for one had it wrong.
260 – …
Eric F, as in Edge Eric?
241- Yes, stop trying to attack him just for any little thing you can – please get your priorities straight, RRR.
These issues are more important than immature, unrelated attacks. Sorry RRR, but it’s true.
249- Thank you Kati’s Dad.
Joy…agree 🙂
mapper. 🙂
Jocosar. You need to go back and read your post you said I changed my story many times. I have never said anything different. I was just the guy up there trying to help and I was made to feel I was nothing but a liability. I would love the opportunity to talk to you in person but a lot of things were said to me that you were saying around the sheriffs dept. so I didn’t dare to contact you. I have had many friends in the Jo Co sheriffs dept over the years and know retired as well as current officers. I have no hatred towards you but i will not allow my brother or myself to be libeled and slandered. If you wish to contact me I left my cell number with you on several occasions. Please feel free to call I do not hate you. But I won’t be torn apart for trying to help
(263) Eric…wazz up? Good to see you here.
Yes, but can not talk about anything reguading the case. Perhaps in the future Mr Mapper we can get together and figure out the best way to convey mapping information to LE or SAR.
I will absolutely call and clear up and misunderstanding or confusion. I appreciate the offer. Thank you.
Back to “read only” mode.
252 – I’m not able to take individual questions right now by phone – mostly because I’m still trying to play catchup from priority cases such as this arising, and I know you’ll understand that has to be a priority right now. I’ll be happy to continue trying to check in here though for now. Maybe later on, hope that’ll be alright.
As far as eyewitness info – obviously I would never presume to be able to speak for or represent the interpretation of another person, such as Sarah R., as you earlier asked with respect to “eyewitness” information from I think an acquaintance she knew somehow…? Generally, cases are sometimes made on eyewitness accounts, HOWEVER, in these types of cases, “eyewitness” info can run the gamut. It can be extremely valuable and it can amount to zero, and can sometimes be a “red herring” or sorts.
You would think that, with any given case, where missing persons (and vehicle description, including license plate info) were broadcast by the media, there would be a number of people who may or may not have seen something related – totally depends on each individual case.
However, almost without exception, a certain number (always varies, and no specific % applies) will call in “tips” that I would bet they honestly believe are intended to help – I think the public, in general, wants to help. Unfortunately, when over 100 (I don’t think that’s an exaggeration) tips are received, with each swearing they are virtually 100% certain they had seen THE car, with THE CA license plate (personallized) or THE family – in about 50 different places at virtually the same time – I think you get the idea. We have to take the totality of the circumstances in triaging these tips, with none being discarded without full *reasonable* consideration, before decided to act or not on each one.
Here’s the kicker (sorry this is long) – one would think that, if only a normal license plate were provided (with what, 6 or 7 digits), that would generate the most “I think I may have seen that vehicle” calls – since any digit could be misinterpreted. But when LE puts out a personalized plate (that would generally be highly recognizable as the KIM’s plate was) – one would think that would generate far fewer “possibles.” Couldn’t be further from the truth, in my experience. Ends up multiplying the # of callers by 3,4 or even 5 times…something along those lines, but you get the idea. It’s unbelievable.
Sorry for long answer to your short question.
(274) Gotta warn you Eric…Mapper is F and she claims to be a temptress. 🙂
I would very much like to speak to you about Edge at some point.
🙂 Eric so glad to here from you here!
Ms. Mapper
Glenn (to clarify 264) I was contacted by CNN not the other way around. And my intention was to donate the money from the start. Not everyone has a personal agenda.
Glenn I do not!
(276) Great response Mike…thanks for the information.
Jocosar
I really do want the opportunity to talk to you.
any time is good
264- Sorry glenn, I disgree with you on this one, and as you can see, a lot of other people agree there is nothing wrong with him taking money for such services.
To say that he is on the media’s “payroll” like there is some kind of conspiracy is absurd.
And he was just verifying that the Oregonian was right as to his account of his part of the story.
(279) Thanks John I am just trying to clarify a lot of things here. I have a list of over 150 inconsistencies that need feeling in. You have helped on several thanks.
hi eric. 🙂 we completely understand not being able to answer any questions. good to see you here.
Glenn – I would like to confirm what John said about his plan to donate the CNN fee. I played a minor logistical role between him and CNN at one point, and it was to me that John made the offer to donate the Money to SAR.
As a side note to John – I have no problem with your new plan for the money, but if you changed your mind based solely on Sara, please be advised that she is a SO employee and not a member of our non-profit organization. We reside in a County facility, but pay all our own utilities, purchase and maintain our own vehicles, and receiving no County funds. We exist solely on community donations. As I said, your new plan is good too, so no hard feelings.
No comment from me RE: payments to witnesses. Personally speaking (and this is me personally here, not as a cop), I have no problem with a guy getting paid for his time and expenses (which are being donated at any rate – way to go John) – especially when CNN or any other media outlet is attempting to use his expertise to make $$$ themselves.
Thanks lisa
I can’t know what other people said to the Oregonian but I know what I said. And I certainly didn’t get paid for any other interviews. I was paid $50.00 per hour for my time and vehicle. I was not paid for any on air time. That was just a bonus for them. In fact I was the one that contacted SAR to request that the Sheriffs deputy in the CNN story come along.
By the way I thought CNN was very accurate and sensitive in their story
Eric I am very much interested in hearing your story, if you ever are able to talk about it…you know where to find me. I can only imagine at this point!
Phil
I was going to call you but I received a lot of flak from LE and really felt degraded. I would also like to talk to you on the phone or meet for coffee at some point. And we can talk about helping SAR
Eric F – A prince among men, to be sure. I am grateful for what you did, giving me the chance to contact you and doing the right thing as a human being.
deleted at mapper’s request
Hey John James, (#250) I don’t think there is one single thing wrong with asking for payment from CNN for squiring them around. I hope you don’t see me as criticizing you, ’cause I ain’t doing that. I was just reminiscing. The print people and the TV people are a little like Iran vs. Iraq. 🙂
Eric F
I have to say also that you are awesome. Putting forth the effort you did was commendable.
No problem Charles.
They got a great story and they needed to pay for the services. They really were nice guys and really felt for the Kim family when it was all said and done
Wow! What a night on the blog! “Star-studded!”
You guys have worn me out.
Thanks for listening and putting up with me.
I will check back again
Best regards,
John
I can’t believe how hard it must be (or have been) for all of you to have kept quiet for so long. Its really interesting to hear so many of your voices tonight.
I am a bit overwhelmed!
(286) Thanks Phil. I just think it is amazing how many eyes are watching this site. So many sit there and lurk and then all of a sudden they have to chime in. I think it is great!
Charles you should write a narrative about the blogging world, etc.
All of you need to open up and say what is your mind!
Let me say something else, John, in hopes of making it even clearer what I think. Where I come from, people get paid for their work. If you squired CNN around, you worked. If you choose to donate the proceeds, great. But it’s your decision, your money and your business.
p.s.: Did I ever tell you that I once almost punched out a TV cameraman in the U.S. Capitol building. Yep, right there under a marble doorway. One of the cops saw it and stepped in. Good thing for the TV guy. I was prepared to do some serious damage, and not just to the equipment. Those people are animals. 🙂
[238] Kati’s Dad: I’m more of a lurker here, but I have to say just when the conversation turns into an abstract (albeit interesting) exercise of map reading and creating proper signage, a glimpse of the true horror of what happened comes through (from Kati’s Yelp page, your comments) and it throws me for a loop. I can’t imagine how Kati deals with reminders of it all (her daughter’s umbrella, her destroyed car). Really, I just feel for her so much.
(300) Charles just when I think you are starting to make some sense you have to throw in some off the wall comments (i.e. punching a TV cameraman?)
Yes, and thank you so much Eric F – you really ended up being the one with the proof – the info that truly narrowed the search location.
I hope you will be able to talk with us more after the investigation!
Fair enough John, I still have your cell number and I’ll give you a call tomorrow. As you know I don’t work for any of the agencies involved, yet this ordeal has been difficult for many of the volunteers such as myself. The Oregonian even got hold of my personal cell phone and although I agree with it, the SO gag order has been painful all the way around. Talk to you soon.
It was a long time ago, glenn. He really had it coming. But it’s just as well the cop was there.
(293) Iran and Iraq with a smiley…???
Maggies going to eat her sock for going out tonight!
🙂 true mapper
(293) Charles the Iran/Iraq comparison to print and tv media – I don’t get it? Over 1,000,000 people died in the course of the Iran/Iraq conflict…sorry to be somewhat off-topic that analogy is really strange to me.
307- Mapper I’ll bet she’ll want to!
Joe, are you here? Can you believe it?
And yes, Eric F – you are also a true hero in my book!
Oh boy. glenn, there is a considerable amount of rivalry and mutual disrespect between print reporters and people who work in the electronic media.
Glenn, I think Charles WIlson is the real thing–probably not his real name, but you can’t fake good writing. Some of his previous posts were put together pretty well. AND from what I’ve just learned about the media–I bet they get punched a lot!
Kati’s Dad – It breaks my heart to read that Kati’s little girl feels she needs to take care of her Mom. That is a terribly heavy load for a little girl to carry. My heart goes out to the entire family.
Now I am blog dreaming again…
Ok, tara – how about Brian Powers?/! After the investigation?
wait for it…. wait for it….. 🙂
312 – Eric, you mean it’s not just the paparozzi that gets punched?
(312) I am not doubting Charles writing skills, wit and what he is about and what he is doing.
BTW thanks for stepping up for the Kims that is really something!
Lisa–thanks. Dare I suppose that just about anyone else in my shoes would have done the same. My part in this was highly touted–but on the grand scheme of things –it was nothing.
Eric F, if you are Eric Fuqua, in the forthcoming narrative you are listed among those whose actions were praiseworthy.
Adapted from Merriam Webster’s On-Line Dictionary:
praiseworthy: Laudable, worthy of favorable judgment
(313) Gayle it just might be part of James shining through for his family! 🙂
So Phil, can you tell us anything about the cell phone map as to how it was handled Saturday night and by the night shift? I think you said you were a volunteer in the JoCo cmd post that evening.
Was JoCoSAR the central command post that night for more than one county or was the search in JoCo about to be called off? All very confusing to me.
Eric, welcome to pac-wilson’s human coding system.
I am still going with hero.
313 Penelope is an amazingly intelligent and socially savy child. Kati is so fortunate to have her as a little support person.
313- Gayle, yes, I know your post is addressed to Kati’s Dad, but I just wanted to say, I had a similar experience as a little girl – it is a child’s way of trying to compensate for their pain and the pain of all those around them.
316 — I just dont think he could be that PacNW guy that I saw everyone quarelling with earlier.
Katis dad – she is really cute too!
324 – So did I.
324 My heart goes out to all the children who have lost their Father’s in Iraq, of course, the broader picture for any child who loses a loving Father. It was hard to watch the part of the evening news today when they showed the children kissing their fathers who are being sent back to Iraq.
I’m nowhere near caught up with this incredible night that’s been going on here.
John James – it’s very good to have you here! Thank you so much for sharing with us and for what you tried to do.
Eric F – you have made Mapper’s night, and I’d love to hear more from you (I’m still catching up, so maybe once I get to the end you will have said some more 🙂 .
Kati’s Dad – anytime you tell us a little more about James or Kati, my heart breaks a little more for your family.
Det Mike – if you are still here, I’m sure you have plenty on your plate, but I wondered if you happened to know whether the report got into the mail on Friday or today? I haven’t received it yet.
And now I need to try to catch back up.
(and I’m not wearing any socks)
287 – Mike, couldn’t agree more. If John got paid for taking a crew up there, I don’t have a problem with it. It’s not like the knife store witness in the OJ trial selling his story to the Enquirer, then getting bounced as a prosecution due to the clobbering he would take by Johnnie C.!
324- Sorry Kati’s Dad – I didn’t mean to overlap, I wasn’t sure if you were still with us, or may have gone to sleep. Although it’s difficult on such an exciting evening. I’m so glad you are here with us for all of this!
From what I was able to determine, the search got underway in the right area without Eric’s positioning information. I think his information, along with some other data, enabled Lt. Powers (also deemed “praiseworthy”) to persuade Sarah Rubrecht not to call off Josephine County’s SAR effort on Sunday, Dec. 3.
The peripheral importance of the information is why I used the label I did for Fuqua’s action. Also, I would note that James Kim died on Sunday afternoon and Josephine County’s continuing SAR effort had no role in finding his body. Kati Kim and her children were located by a private helicopter pilot, so while the Mr. Fuqua and Lt. Powers’s efforts were praiseworthy they were not lifesaving or potentially lifesaving.
This isn’t to denigrate them. To the contrary, their efforts were laudable and worthy of favorable judgment.
315- tara, you are better than santa! 🙂
Kati’s Dad– Sir, I just want you to know how much I empathize with Kati, James, and the two little ones. I’ve been all too close to being in that exact same situation myself. I did what I did because I HAD too. Hearing the news of their rescue was truely one of the greatest moments of my life.
(334) that’s just cool!
318- Eric F, I disagree, but you are humble and that makes you even more – a hero and charming!
@ Eric F. — I just want to say I sure admired your initiative in this search. It must have been so frustrating knowing what you knew but not being able to get your information acted upon immediately. I hope details of the jamming bureaucratic roadblocks you encountered are disclosed in the upcoming SAR report. If not perhaps you could air the story as you experienced it, here.
I join many others here at joeducks’ commending you for your independent sleuthing efforts and for your dogged persistence in getting that information through thick heads in the way.
Maggie (329) – I’ve decided that Fred the Cat can eat my socks if we’re all wrong.
By the way, yesterday I bought a paperback book to take with me to the hopital for when my husband was sleeping. I thought I should broaden my horizons from the Kim case for a break while away from the computer, just to keep my head from spinning from all the activity here.
I had not read the synopsis of the book. Imagine my surprise when I began reading: Story of a lost woman on a desolate Oregon Rd. to the coast (Tillamook Co.), car found abandoned, family member (who is also LE) is involved in search, cell phone calls enter into the story, etc., etc., and that was only the first 50 pages. I could not believe it, my get away book didn’t get me away at all.
334- and caring!
334. – 🙂
Also, while were throwing out the praise. thanks to the detective too for apparently taking eric seriously.
338 – Please share the title and author?
Madeleine, thats just wierd!
(341) There are several regular citizens that stepped up and beyond the call of duty in this case. They all should be commended – Kati and kids are alive today largely due to their efforts.
I think it is important to note that Kati as a mother did an amazing job keeping those two precious beams of light safe and well!
338 – Madeleine, that is pretty ironic. I hope your husband is feeling much better today.
Charels sir, remember what they taught you in reporters school? I think it was the first lesson…something about a chicken, a fox, and an henhouse?
mapper (341), the new website is very close. As we speak, Dee is sending me e-mails as she codes each section. The comment forum is ready, too. So, once you and others get the chance to read through it, you’ll have plenty of opportunity to suggest changes.
The narrative is intended as a dynamic document. It will be altered as new reports emerge and/or as Dee and I are persuaded to alter our views. We persuaded each other on some aspects of the analysis over the weekend, so our minds are not closed by any means.
John James should absolutely have accepted compensation for his time with the CNN news crew. How many of the news crew folks are working voluntary? Diane Sawyer brings us news stories at a salary of around 8 million a year and she is a pauper compared to Oprah who makes over $200 million.
John, you did the right thing. It’s your money. If you choose to donate it to a good cause, then good to you.
One of the major network stations offered to pay for our plane tickets from Albuquerque to Oregon if I would agree to an exclusive the morning after Kati and the kids were found. I said no, but I had I been unable to afford the tickets, I would have probably taken the offer. CNN did pay for our hotel one night in Albuquerque.
To Eric F. and John James: Thank you both for participating here, but most especially for what you did. John, please don’t agonize over what you think you should have done, there is no way to know for sure how that would have turned out. Fate has a way of stepping in for some reason or another, always frustrating, I know.
Eric, regardless of what one or two posters here may say, I believe your efforts led to the rescue. Thank you for caring enough to get involved.
Eric (346), when Gore Vidal described America as the home of the literal and the land of the dull, he was thinking of me. Could you please spell it out for me? Thanks.
I think it is worthy noting how so many of the people who felt compelled to act and who ultimately salvaged the situation have said they did so because they could see themselves in the same situation, with their own children, etc. Something to think about when slinging about criticisms of the Kims.
Charles (pac)
With all due respect I feel like I am watching a bad version of the movie twister…where the flashy villain tries to steal everyone’s ideas because he has finally realized the value of them, and wants to be the hero in the end.
respectfully…
Bamadad #321 – Sorry, but I was told I went too far already. After all none of us can be certain what the OSSA thinks is noteworthy, and none of us want to do anything to mess up their efforts to produce an accurate, timely report. I have much to say and can only ask that you respect the position I am in.
With that said I must also let you know that in my efforts to be vague on details, I may have misled you as to my role. I was attending an EMT class out of town over the weekend, so my involvement began Monday morning. The briefing we received did give me a good insight into the decisions that had led up to that point, but even after I am allowed to speak, I can’t provide a firsthand account of the weekend activities.
341- Yes, I believe that Det. Mike is probably one of those too many unsung daily heroes…
Maggie !!! – we missed you !!! The roof blew off the house while you were gone. Every time I hit refresh I have 15 minutes of reading to do. My laptop is smoldering. LOOK what happens when you go out for one night !!!
Charles– well I differ with your take on the “peripheral importance” of Eric’s positioning information, which we have been calling the cell phone map. Why do you call it “peripheral”?
Until I hear more, I think it was key, even Lt.Power’s said something like that. So here are my assumptions as to it’s worth:
If whoever received it at the JoCo HQ’s Saturday night had a clue as to how to interpret it or had called Eric F for help or asked him to come to the HQ’s ASAP, JoCo could have done many things with this intelligence that might have saved James before Sunday afternoon.
For instance send up the FLIR by midnight to look at likely points of intersection. If James knows someone is searching from the sound of rotor wash, then maybe he would have stopped in place, sheltered up and waited for rescue instead of plunging into neck deep water later Sunday. He could have perhaps assumed his family would soon be found.
JoCo could have had a plan to send up the other three Carson helos and the one additional NG helo at daylight and nailed down those 50 or so intersections, that JoCoSAR said were on the cellphone map. If James hears the cavalry coming, maybe he would sit and rest and know his family would soon be safe.
So until I hear that this “positioning information” was imprecise, that is what was wrong with the search … in my humble opinion.
….and the test is not that it wouldn’t have made a difference in this case, but that it will make a difference in the next case.
Why do you call it “peripheral”?
Off to bed for me here on the east coast. It’s been an eye-opening and eye-popping night. I don’t know how some of you have the time and energy to devote to contributing here. I can barely get my household jobs done in between refreshing the page and reading along. Not to mention, the extra pound or two from sitting so much in front of my computer all the time. I’m beginning to think you all are retired senior citizens!
Eric, I too want to add my praise for your actions and humble demeanor. What you did went above and beyond. Thank you.
Good night everyone.
316-Eric / Finally someone else agrees with me! 🙂 Very cool you came to visit us tonight, you saved 3 lives and came so close to saving a 4th. Kudos to you!!!
Charles
My Q is in regard to your comment 332
Phil, thanks for clearing that up, that you began on Monday. and thanks again for being a volunteer. You folks set a wonderful example. thanks.
Well done… to Eric and John James, both.
Gayle and Mapper: Sorry, meant to post the book name: “Gone”, by Lisa Gardner (2006). Had I turned it over and read the back, I’d have seen the following included: “A car has just been found abandoned on a desolate stretch of Oregon highway…..”
Of course it’s not a missing vacationing family, just a missing woman, but it was so strange having it be this particular topic! Oh, and Lt. Gregg Hastings from OSP, another familiar name to this case, was thanked as an advisor for the book. Small world, indeed.
Adirondacker, thanks for the kind words, he’s doing fine, home and resting, having confounded the cardiologists. Oh, and I always thought the Adirondacks sounded so cool to visit.
goodnight, Im out.
thank you eric.
thank you john.
361 – Thank you so much, I like that author, have read a lot of her novels. But not that one yet. 🙂
Charles.
I think Lt.Powers said the cellphone information was a “breakthrough”. Of course the location of the James’cellphone ping and the cell tower were bass ackwards. But it wouldn’t take a genius to clear that up in about five seconds– there is no cell phone coverage up on Bear Camp Road. So you run it back to ground to get that cleared up.
Thanks. Have to check out now. Sleep.
‘night all
Mapper, I sent you mail, unless I read your address wrong.
347 – I knew I shouldn’t have refreshed the page! I’ve been trying so hard to be good all night…..biting my tongue.
“new website” = slanted, egotistical, personal debate forum, under autocratic rule, farming for viewers on another’s site?
And yes, now that I’ve stuck my nose in it (and it stinks!) I have to say I’ll chew my socks, also. But, I don’t think I’ll have to.
Goodnight.
Adirondacker, a formal hello to you! and good night! 🙂
Do any of those who might know (RRR, JoCo, Phil) have any better idea as to when the report might be released? With some of the contentious debate tonight betwixt some of the parties I am more anxious than ever to see it.
I got it paul, I wrote back.
352- Mapper, I believe you may deserve a prize for this one… 🙂
367 – Boy, there aren’t many of us in the non-sock camp. If our meager camp is right on this, you’ll need a Sockpot for all those socks (groan!)
I do agree that many of those rules sound more like a totalitarian state than a true forum of open ideas, unlike our beloved Joe Duck.
371- or prizes!
night tara, Gayle, and Adirondacker! 🙂
373. Thanks Lisa, no socks please! And no…I do not deserve a prize. Thank you all for putting up with me.
Bamadad #356, if Mr. Fuqua had never learned of the location, how would anything have changed? If the Josephine County SAR effort had gotten the information on Saturday morning, how would things have changed? The search was already concentrated in the right area. The cellphone ping didn’t matter.
Where has Joe been through all of this? I’m sure he must have observed some of it… With a big smile no doubt! 🙂
(372) Paul, it is pretty obvious plus a little bird told me tonight that Pac was finally banned over at MT. He had to re-invent himself plain and simple…but the subtle clues are there if you look.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they are going to try to make some money off of this – I could be wrong but we will see.
Something isn’t right with the picture we are being presented from Charles Wilson.
However if he is successful in making something positive out of this for others than that is all that matters.
Charles #332 – Can’t believe I’m doing this after I swore to myself that I’d done my last post, but I am going to repeat something I already covered in a previous post. Oh, before I go on, I want to say that I understand you could not have known what I am about to tell you, and I agree with most of what you said.
My point is very simple – SAR missions are conducted under a strict command structure. The vast majority of decisions are made with team input, but there is always one Incident Commander shouldering ultimate responsibility. In the normal routine this is not the Sheriff, and may be delegated to a line Deputy or someone in between. Just for clarification, that person is never Sara Rubrecht. I have worked with her on occasions where she and I wanted to keep a search going and the IC pulled the plug, and on other occasions we have felt we were burning out the volunteers for no reason, but the IC said to keep going. In short it is not her decision.
As SAR Coordinator it was her job to hold the conversation with Brian Powers (see GR), but anything said about canceling the search was her relaying information from the IC. So blaming her is akin to shooting the messenger. Of course I’m not saying that there was anything wrong with discussing when to end the search, based on known information that may have been an appropriate consideration at the time. I’ll withhold my judgment until the OSSA report is out. Same with the conversation with John James on the hill. Not that John had any way of knowing this, but the other “Deputy” was in charge, not her.
Someone posted an entry awhile back that raised the concern that the OSSA report was going to be glowing because the government will protect itself. My concern is the opposite. How often do you think they find some poor sole in middle management to pin the whole thing on. Sara may have made some mistakes, or maybe she didn’t, and if she did she can be held accountable in due time following due process. But for whatever reason the Oregonian and then much of the world has zeroed in on her and the gag order has prevented SO admin from rescuing her. She has received more hate mail than anyone I’ve ever known, and all the time she is going though the human emotions of second guessing herself (as we all are), and she wants to be allowed to grieve for the Kim family, but knows anything she says will sound insincere.
I’m not sensitive on any other point and I am not taking sides between her and John. I just want it understood that she was not in charge of the search. Period. So can we please give her a rest until the full story is known.
372 – Paul, sometimes I’m not sure whether I’ve logged on to “Joe Duck” or “Joe, Duck!!” Poor Joe, it’s like herding cats around here sometimes. He tries so hard to keep us civil, and we’re good for a short time, then someone stops in here and stirs things up it’s on.
I will say that Pac couldn’t go more than a few posts without referring to the “Love fest” between this site and some of the principals or whatever he called it. So there may be a whole lotta socks to stir in the sock pot after all, since I’m not sure Pac could contain himself for this many posts.
Madeleine,
Might I just say, my second favorite phrase learned on this forum is “like herding cats”
375- Mapper, you are more than a pleasure to put up with! 🙂
And now, I must say goodnight too!
hmmmm Perhaps I missed some of that earlier PACNW stuff, but from what I saw that guy seemed pretty closed minded and more willing to create conflict than any thing else. And, did PacNW ever complete any sentences? Let alone a paragraph?
382- And you know, there is no real “putting up with”
there – all pleasure for me! 🙂
(379) Thank you Phil. That definitely needed to be said and your efforts are certainly noble by doing so – thanks for sticking your neck out like that.
We need to get all the answers we can get before we can figure all of this out and I think it is highly unfair to kick people who cannot defend themselves. We should wait until they can kick back.
Yes, this evening was lively. At this point the postings have slowed somewhat. This gives me an opportunity to clear up a question in my mind. It concerns a piece in a number of postings. My question refers to the information in the roadway that says “To the Coast” or something like that. Is this a USFS/BLM sign? Would this bit of information be covered by snow? Who has knowledge of this sign (maps or information booths)? I remember reading that it was painted on the road surface.
I don’t know if this has any meaning for the outcome but it is something that has puzzled me through the many postings.
Phil (#379), we will absolutely welcome your comments at the new website. In naming Ms. Rubrecht as negligent, I wrote:
“A more thorough, and more favorable, account of Ms. Rubrecht’s actions between Dec. 1 and Dec. 6 could change our opinion.”
The website should be up momentarily, so you can read the whole thing for yourself.
Phil, we are going to be particularly interested in any insights you can provide about the structure of SAR efforts. See, one of the reasons we’re doing the other site is because we want to have a high signal-to-noise ratio. I absolutely promise you that your input will be welcomed and taken seriously.
383.
I’ve read everything he has written (unfortunatley) until I started glazing over it when he got too crazy with bold and italics. I’ve also read some of the stuff on the MT (where he says much of the same about joe being unfair, or communist).
Same message (exact same except for changing his mind about the internet being useful), same writing style, just keeping the anger under wraps cause he has to tonight. Also, he has decided to do something now so has a stake in having a better reputation. I think he let the anger out more freely before because it was just a hobby and fun for him plus he thinks were all too stupid to follow it anyway.
Plus, he and Dee? coeincedence? I think not.
But, I will eat my sock if I am wrong.
379- Thanks Phil, that really helps clarify a lot!
381 – mapper, still catching up. Does that mean my eating socks is number one? Madeleine’s herding cats is my personal favorite saying from here – and so, so true!
Back to catching up.
380/Madeleine: I like that – Joe, DUCK!! Agree also that the Pac I know and love could NEVER contain himself on a night like tonight without lashing out in vindictive, snide, sarcastic fashion at all us bleeding hearts from California…(funny thing, virtually none of the folks he was always taking potshots at are from or in CA, near as I could tell). Wish there was some way to know for sure….
Yes, Maggie, and I shall try not to overuse it as it is still my favorite!
386 – Calm Guy, there are more pictures other places (perhaps in the ones Joe has linked – can’t recall for sure). Anyway this shows the small sign to the coast:
(389) If anything mapper maybe all of us rabble-rousers over here got him to get serious and finally do something. If he can help I think it is great!
I am still amazed with all the information that is still missing how it is possible to label someone – labeling someone isn’t a good thing anyway. It is rather obnoxious.
He never was able to discuss the word Hero in conjunction with the Kims…not even about Kati.
395. agree
394 – And here is the link to the pictures Joe posted that someone took a week or so ago. One or two of these show the spray painting on the road. Plus many other shots of area.
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/Oregonpix/?start=all
385- glenn, for the record, I certainly didn’t mean to ‘kick’ anyone, and I think that ‘kicking’ and ‘kicking back’ isn’t the point anyway, and although I think you probably mean it lightly, it’s not the best or most constructive way to characterize the debate involved…
because it’s so far from the real point, and the substance involved in the real issues.
I found a video about Joe Duck!!!
I asked the question sometime this (Monday) afternoon. After searching and finding a great amount of information about ICS and the roll of each person in the “IMT” I had asked the question about what IMT roll JOCOSAR and Sarah played. It seemed to me that her roll was not in search management.
Phil, you have cleared up some of the questions I have wondered about. It seems that the messenger has taken the brunt of the criticism. Does JOCOSAR have a roll in what I understand is the “Overhead Management. While I may not be correct in some of the terms, you may be able to clear some of this up for me.
399 – Glenn, WAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!! 🙂
395/Glenn – I asked him point blank earlier today and he never did respond…maybe if you ask him? (that continues to bother me)…but if he denies it, how could one prove otherwise ? I will offer this – if it IS him, being this civil has to be eating him alive (but I still don’t think it’s him). 🙂
Calm Guy…it’s the second one on that last page marked ” THEintersectionFS…” I know that all to well….been there done that.
I’ve missed that turn several times and in broad daylight even. I’ll let you be the judge of how the white paint looks covered with snow!
Let me say why, from my viewpoint as an investigator, I think Eric F’s actions ARE, in fact, not even close to peripheral, but critical and invaluable. In a MPERS investigation (not commenting specifically on SAR, in keeping with my usual), the most important information is known as the “Last Best Information,” whether that be electronic data which can be tracked, an actual eyewitness (verifiable) contact, etc.
The first piece of almost verifiable (which later became 100%) information came from the Portland area citizen who gave us the initial info re : Denny’s, which was later confirmed. That was HUGE. It allows SAR efforts to shift resources south of Hwy 38 (and Hwy 101 connecting Hwy 38 south to next coastal mtn junction).
THEN comes Fuqua – who is able to provide verifiable (at least as far as the capture of the cell ph # info) information which…and this is the important part for investigators…confirms, by an overwhelming likelihood, that SAR is in the correct area, that had been initially determined by their collective past experience and the possibility that the family had run into trouble there.
I have the utmost respect for each and every LE and SAR and volunteer member who were involved. When the initial APB was put out by our TT (Teletype) late on 11/30, by the first of the next am, before we could even answer all the calls from southern OR agencies and OSP, offering assists, they were ALREADY searching everywhere reasonably possible, given the lack of any specific, VERIFIABLE information. With all respect, those not in LE have no idea how hard it is sometimes to assign expensive resources to a “search,” when there has been no verified information to put someone in a particular place.
The name of the game in MPERS is to pare down the search, refocus, regroup and reassign, as necessary. Despite anyone’s opinion of how the SAR went or should have gone, I have never been more proud to be an Oregonian (20+ yrs now) than I was that day. There are more ??? in MPERS type cases than almost any other type of case.
Eric brought us together in our common goal of being able to further the mission, collectively, which confirmed was most already thought, but had not yet been confirmed. Now THAT is a person worthy of accolades. He never had to come forward – but he (and his partner) did, and that’s what counts.
399/Glenn – on that outstanding note – very good find !!! – I must depart. G’Night all.
402. Paul, he may be avoiding outright swearing. I do not find him civil.
But, I also dont like talking about him for fear I am breaking the rules. you know what I think, now, as I have made that clear. I place great faith in the truth coming out eventually 🙂
if I am wrong, and we never find out I never have to eat my sock.
if I am right, and we never find out…well you dont have to do your song/dance routine.
so its really win/win.
Sorry – I realize I tend to be long-typed, but sometimes certain things just need to be shared – from those who are among those who appreciate it most.
And Maggie – had an anon call today at wk asking about the report, but was from a man (?) – I checked w/ PIO and he confirmed it was mailed to you on Fri.
406/Mapper: I like win/win, it’s good for everybody. Must clarify though, I can write song, but no way can I dance – that would be punishment for you all, not entertainment. G’Night.
(398) For the record Lisa I wasn’t even referring to you.
The only person you kicked tonight was me when you accused me of being coaches by “the other side”.
I was quite surprised by that comment and even more surprised when you had defined sides to this.
There are no sides to this set of issues. It can only be about one thing – how can we improve this for all concerned? Some of us believe the biggest chance for overall improvement is to get all the facts out.
Not so that we can label someone as a hero or negligent, or we can get somebody fired, or fuel a lawsuit or to make money from this but to understand how things happened when and how and what if anything is possible in the future to afford everyone a better result.
I take extreme exception to the phrases like “the other side”. It has been by the painstaking efforts of people like myself and Tara to get people here to finally talk (and yes Tara and I work directly every day tracking people down). Many may lurk and pop their heads in now and then but some very key people who posted tonight were a direct result of an invitation sent to them. We have many more out there to.
The analysis and opinions being presented by Charles Wilson is what many of us were even saying while the search was still going on – there is nothing new there.
A lot of us have moved from the “sides” view and are trying to create a complete picture to help us understand – you can’t possibly be on a “side” to do that.
I will admit there is one major exception for me and that is the Kim family and specifically James and Kati – to me they are off-limits. It just isn’t right to say some of the things that people are saying about them.
I am very confused with people like Charles Wilson – he is so quick to label Sara R. as negligent but refuses to even discuss that James or Kati could be a hero.
If we continue to create “sides” to this tragedy we will never have a chance of getting all the answers.
404 – Thank you very much, Det Mike. It’s always so very informative (and interesting!) to hear how these things really work. I knew it wasn’t like on TV, but still didn’t have much better of a realistic idea. I really love it when you come and explain!
407 – I’m not a man, so it wasn’t me 🙂 Wonderful, if mailed Friday, I really should have it tomorrow (odd it didn’t come today, but mail can be odd sometimes, I guess). Thank you very much!
Detective, I enjoyed reading it. You have a lot to say, that is valuable, in my opinion.
(403) Amen Eric…
(404) Thanks Mike your perspective is so helpful. Eric you should be proud of what you did – so many wouldn’t have.
Eric – now that I’m caught up and things are a little quieter, I would like to add my thanks to that of others. You are very humble, but you really did a great thing.
Maggie, Thanks for the information leading to the pictures. I didn’t see anything that indicated information to the “Coast” however I did see the “Dead End” painted on the roadway. Comparing that information to other signs, my guess is that is probably not a USFS/BLM piece of information. The pictures on the web posting were certainly clear and easy to understand. I one of the first pictures a snow covered the roadway. I doubt if a hand painted sign would show through even in light snow. The pictures were very clear and gave me a better understanding of what available information the traveler has. Thanks for taking the time to get those links to me. Someone certainly took time to get them, no easy task.
And if I may… not to sound too Officer-Friendly soundbite-ish, but… for all the media’s focus on “LE had to wait for family members to step up and provide this data,” or “private citizens like Fuqua had to step up themselves and provide that assistance,” (quotes added for emphasis only) – what the media fails to recognize is that the very tenants of community policing – which just about every agency has made strides to improve over the past 10-15 years, is BASED upon building relationships and cooperative efforts – including with non-LE persons and groups – to affect common positive change.
Not for a minute will I (or I would expect any other LE member) take any credit for the hard work and contributions of the Kim family’s other family members, friends and associates (and there were many!). ..or the efforts of people like Eric. I just wish the media could realize, and parish the thought – positively report on what I, for one, believe was a fine *cooperative* effort that was the epitomy of community policing.
Calm Guy, this one was the small sign to the coast (unless you meant the spray painted word coast?):
Definitely could not see the spray painting in the snow, and looks and sounds like it’s confusing even in great conditions.
I know I try to be more fact-based, but thank you for letting me voice some heartfelt thoughts tonight too.
(416) Mike I am curious – are you considered a visionary in the force?
I mean that in all seriousness because you seem to really understand the elements of cooperation, leadership and the ability to look at the rubix cube solution of a problem.
They really are lucky to have a resource like yourself. I tip my hat to you.
Det. Mike W., I think Mr. Fuqua’s action was praiseworthy, but I don’t see how it changed anything. On Dec. 1st, the search was focused on the correct area, i.e., between Agness and Galice. On Dec. 2nd, helicopters and people were in that area anyway.
From the governor’s log of official actions released Jan. 5th, it appears that Mr. Fuqua’s recording of the telephone ping was one of a number of pieces of information that the Oregon State Police (Lt. Brian Powers) cited in his successful effort to persuade Josephine County SAR not to call off their efforts on Sunday, Jan. 3rd.
Sunday is the day James Kim died at Big Windy Creek. The search never found him. Had it been called off on Sunday, the outcome for James Kim would have been no different.
On Monday, John Rachor, a helicopter pilot affiliated with no one, found Kati Kim and her children. His action had no connection to the cellphone ping. On Wednesday, a private pilot hired by Spencer Kim found James Kim’s body. You might be able to argue, and I stress might that the cellphone ping contributed in some way to the search for Mr. Kim’s body being concentrated where it was.
I think it’s useful to recover bodies. It provides closure for the family, that’s for sure. But I don’t regard the recovery of a body as a signal achievement. It’s a consolation prize at best.
Eric Fuqua had no way of knowing that his efforts would ultimately not make any difference. His actions were laudable and worthy of favorable judgment, but the fact that they ultimately didn’t have anything to do with the outcome is a relevant factor here. Again, I’m absolutely not damning anyone with faint praise.
Mr. Fuqua, even if you don’t like me I like what you did. My Jewish friends would call it a mitzvah, and mitzvahs deserve at the very least a tip of the hat.
418. Heartfelt thoughts are valuable too, and I think a lot of us agree that it would be hard to do these kinds of jobs well without having some empathy, to begin with.
416 – Det Mike, that really is such a great point. Imagine an article with that kind of focus on what can be done together. Perhaps in another case, another Eric for example, would step forward to offer help in something specialized. I wonder how often someone could help, but it doesn’t really occur to them that their help is needed – that maybe the PD already has that kind of thing already in place.
(420) How do you know James Kim died on Sunday? You state it like a fact.
419- Glenn, you’d be surprised how many LE and related folks are out there every day (nation- and worldwide) committed to these ideas – and putting them to work as effectively as possible. Just won’t read about it the media or get national attention – doesn’t sell news.
Thanks for the kind words.
glenn (#423)there was some excellent analysis of the time of death back in the first comment page of this board. It was painstakingly reasoned, and dovetails quite nicely with the findings of the coroner. Yes, it’s possible James Kim died on Monday but highly unlikely. He almost certainly expired on Sunday afternoon. For more analysis, you should return to the first comment page of the joeduck comment board.
(424) I actually know several but mainly in specific branch of the DOJ.
I know being a detective means you definitely have above average intuition and problem solving skills – otherwise you pretty much wouldn’t solve anything. But I really see some serious leadership qualities in your style.
Charles and I would like to invite all of you to take a look at our newly launched website and forum at KimTragedy.info. Just click on my name below. Feel free to post or lurk. We both will be going back and forth from our site to here and all the other blogs and such. Thanks.
(425) Charles I know the analysis regarding the time of his death inside and out. I did many of the calculations myself.
I cannot fathom how you say it dovetails nicely with the coronor…did you read the report?
I don’t ever remember the coronor ever mentioning Sunday in fact I think the report makes it even more clear that accurate time of death is near impossible.
420 – I’m not going to try and change your mind. That’s not why I’m here. But what I can share is that hindsight is only that. We can move forward and learn from it, but it serves no value whatsoever at the moment of action.
And my point (taking nothing away from what I recognize as Eric’s valued contribution) was that from an *investigative* standpoint, being able to provide verifiable information that assets being deployed (and yes, it is necessary to consider the financial implications for all governmental agencies) were being deployed in the correct area only reinforced the efforts already made to that point.
Det Mike W, I want to be accurately understood here: I am NOT in any way, shape or form criticizing Mr. Fuqua. If and when you read the narrative you will see that he’s on a short list of people praised. If I were your eighth-grade teacher, I’d be the guy about whom was said, “What the hell do I have to do to get an A out of the guy? Bring him the broom of the Wicked Witch of the West?”
To which I’d have answered something like, “I’m tough, but I’m fair. And when I’ve given you an A, you won’t have any doubt that you’ve earned it.”
Paul where are you? When you read the narrative on djdee’s site you will have your confirmation…just read the analysis and conclusions specifically about James and Kati Kim.
Kim’s Dad you really might not want to read it.
That’s all, folks. For tonight, that is. G’night!
431 – Glenn, it’s all there barely reworded, isn’t it… Oy. I might have to tip that way.
Det Mike, if I don’t receive the report tomorrow for some reason, is there a way that I can contact you? If not, I assume that Joe knows how to reach you, right?
(431) I meant Kati’s Dad…sorry about that.
I am just floored at the garbage from that site. It is just horrible.
At least James and Kati got “admirable” at some point.
409- Sorry glenn, I had gone away, but I am back briefly.
I truly agree with you that there should be no “sides” in this case, however, people have taken “sides” and in the instance of that comment we were talking with John James and JoCoSAR and RRR had been saying that he had changed his story, and said that he had checked the whole road, etc., so it seemed that they were taking sides. And if Sara R’s father has been writing all these nasty letters to the editor and John James says says he would easily and willingly take a lie detector test, etc. It seems that there are sides there.
And it didn’t look any better when RRR jumped in and started attacking him for the same things you were asking him about – taking money from CNN, etc. at the time.
And earlier today you said quite a number of things that led me to think you may have been talking to various potential birdies.
I so truly appreciate all the work you and tara are doing tracking people down – I think that it is so important to hear from as many people as possible.
You will find with me that the truth is more important than anything, and that is what I seek. Because the only real justice is in the truth.
I don’t care who did what, but I do care what was done and
what was not done so we can learn from it.
And you will find that I will be interested in those things
no matter who did what.
(434) It’s like a jihad against the Kims…just unbelievable.
Anyone that embraces that site and analysis will never be able to see how to improve this long-term the opinions and analysis are so short-sighted and small minded.
Sorry Joe but when you read it it will make your head spin.
At least know we know it really is Pac!
[425] — I think it possible (likely?) James died Saturday night. That’s why I asked John James earlier tonight how far he thought James Kim travelled down the drainage gulch Saturday. It seems to me improbable that he could have survived a freezing night soaking wet & malnourished as he was and exhausted after hopelessly slogging 15-20 miles that day.
The calcultions a joeduck poster made way back of estimated travelled time and distance were in my view too simplistic to be of much credulousness.
[432] … You’re not going to hear nearly as much from me from here on our.
oh, that’s so sad !
(440) Kip he very well may have died Saturday night. We just don’t know any speculation about the exact time of his death to me seem irrelevant as far as the search goes.
In my mind James should have returned to the car as he promised unless that just a way of settling Kati’s fears.
He didn’t have a chance in those conditions with the resources he took with him.
(441) Kip are you trying to make me laugh…because you did!
Det. Mike W.
After looking at the extensive amount of information concerning ICS, it seems that this form on event management is used in wild land fires and not so much in LE. However this evening Phil acknowledged that Search and Rescue used this as a management tool. If this is the case is JOCOSAR taking heat that he may not deserve and I guess in the same vain is Sarah R taking heat as well. What roll does JOCOSAR have in the IMT and is a LE person with command authority? If Sarah R is a searcher herself do all volunteer searchers leave themselves open to attach?
(438) Lisa I have more to tell you and I will some day. 🙂
Glenn, no but LOL when I read your [443]
anybody… please, what does abbreviation LE mean? I can’t find out from qik web search. thanks.
Wow, the narrative links to the pictures taken for this site. Interesting. At least we made “most valuable blog” mention.
Kip – Law Enforcement 😉
(446) and LEO is law enforcement officer
What if I don’t wear socks?
Laurie
450 – Safer that way 😉
(447) So what do you think now? Are you a potential sock eater or part of the circus?
(450) Are you a believe now? Welcome! No socks then you will have to shave your head!
452 – Glenn, it does walk like a Pac, and no doubt spouts like a Pac, and even has motive to be a Pac… I’m 98.6% convinced it’s a Pac.
452 – And I only ever said I’d eat my sock if Pac was not a boy/man. 😉
(454) I like your margin there…does that mean you only have to eat like 9.86 of the 10 toes?
456 – I waffled on that one, so I never bet the sock lunch. Paul might need some dancing shoes and banjo accompaniment.
(455) Those two…I am laughing it was like they were setting up a grand opening or something…
and now there store is empty – there is no one posting on the forums but Charles and DH are online waiting to welcome their new customers or pounce on them.
Stopped back by for a last minute – Maggie, had a feeling you’d be wondering – give it probably til Wed., since our mail has to go through our records division, get sorted, sent out, etc. and I’m pretty sure it was late Fri. afternoon it was probably put in the out box. My guess is it went to the post office mon.
(457) Think about this…if it really is Pac and he managed to maintain himself all night with minimal outbursts – that my friend is very twisted.
And yes I think Paul’s good nature was taken advantage of tonight and he was played hard. However it was very funny when he posted the kaboom…that was getting pretty intense at that point.
459 – Great, thanks Det Mike! For that and for everything here when you stop by.
[448] & [449] … thanks! seems so darn obvious,, now!!
an aside…… my exposure to and my limited particpation in this unfolding saga has been an amazing experience for me. I, like Lisa, find fascination with the truth my main driving interest. That and life and love in action. It’s all right here.
Virtual, real…. Is virtual real?
458 – That’s kind of a funny/sad visual.
460 – Yes, that was pretty good! I was, of course, not here live and trying desperately to catch up (only gone a few hours but there were a ton of posts), but I had to chuckle.
To Calm Guy – while checking out the narrative, I did find one of the photos that you mentioned not seeing with the “coast” spray painted. From just the small thumbnail it was hard to see, but if you open the link, it should be more clear:
(462) Hi Kip,
Virtual is something that exists in cyberspace (i.e. computer but most commonly related to the Internet)
So Joe Duck’s is virtual because it is exists in the ether of the net.
However, it is very much real and where the two worlds collide (virtual and real world (rw) or real life (rl, 3d)) is where things get interesting.
Kip if you want to directly email any questions regarding this stuff I will be more than happy to answer them as best as I can.
glennforum at yahoo.
465 – Glenn, is it late, or did that sound kind of deep?
(466) A well – now that is a deep thought!
[465] thanx Glenn
(468) Kip if you really want to see how far it goes you should research Project Entropia and Second Life. You can actually have a career in the virtual world and convert your virtual currency back to real hard cash!
Shave my head huh, maybe I will borrow a pair from my 9 yr old!
🙂
Boy, I bet someone like me would be a nightmare for LE… We did disneyland in Nov, then Christmas, then trip to little sis’s, I have 4 debt cards and 3 cc, all of which were used for my trip to N. Washington, since they were all so close to being maxed, I chuckled everytime I heard you all talking about most people only using 1 cc for travel……
Just a stay at home mom juggling…. And maybe tomorow a college student…. (taking my first college class in 20+ years and I am scared to death!)
Wow, I go out for the evening and we have all these excellent and new folks show up to shed light on the big picture!
Glenn if you are still up at 4am EST you are a certifiable …. computer guy.
😀 ATTENTION 😀
To navigate the pages use “Kim Story” at the top of every blog page. Then use Control F to search each page for comments. This format has worked very well and many have asked to keep it like this, so I have no plans to move to a forum style environment.
Welcome back Joe-Boy, just in time to say goodnight! 😉
Laurie
Just a very quick note – have been trying to keep up the last two days, quick short checks but not time for writing & am not compeltely caught up yet as tonight as been so active/amazing.
First I want to say, Madeleine, am very pleased to hear your husband is going to be OK. I’m getting that darn book!! (I need to read a book, I put it off as I get so consumed)
Mapper, I’m with you Wilson/Pac = same. Also, if any of my comments are used from here in any way, my permission must be asked first. I do NOT trust this site that is going up and I feel the efforts for posting here are simply to farm for their site, period. That’s why Pac a.k.a. Wilson is being civil. I post on this blog out of choice, as I do NOT post on other blogs by choice. Therefore, I choose where my words and thoughts are posted and don’t want them posted anywhere else by anyone whose intentions are very questionable to me. I mean this SERIOUSLY.
Eric, John, and the other noteworthies who have posted here tonight, thank you so much. I admire each and every one of you.
John, you should not feel bad. You should feel proud. No problem with your charging CNN, take the money and do what you wish. I have NO problem there.
Katie’s dad, nor do I have a problem with your letting CNN pay for night. Neither of you have milked the story, and THAT tells the take right there, as Katie has not. True class acts, each and every one. And your grandaughters are adorable. And full of themselves, as they should be, I’ll bet!
Det. Mike, thank you again.
Now, I’m going to say something I will probably get flamed for, but after an incident tonight, my initial feeling, which I have never spoken of, was reinforced. When RRR3 first posted on here, and then JoSar, I felt very strongly there were here to defend and do damage control for Sara R.
I think it was RRR3 who first stated she had to speak out to defend a friend and much later said she only came on the blog to learn? I may not have the exactly right, but I do remember my thoughts during certain postings. The attack against John was uncalled for here. But as I said I’ve not finished catching up. But that one really burnt me.
I have no problem with them defending their friend and the reason they first came to why they stay may have changed and that’s acceptable and fine. But I’ve read numerous article quoting John and I have never ONCE run into him changing his story EVER.
Mapper, I know having Eric here is just thrilling you and that makes me laugh, in a good way.
Bamadad-the friend who grew up in WV, right? Yes, I’m very familiar with the Charleston area, but if you’ve only been around this area of the state, you’ve not seen anything till you get to the southern part of the states in the coal fields, where I grew up. Mountain, a string of houses, a road, a railroad track, and river and the in your face another mountain. It made me feel smothered as a child, I felt I couldn’t breathe because I couldn’t see much sky. Anyway, I am able to breathe now.
And lastly and by far not leastly,
Thank you JOE DUCK.
I hate to say it, but their site looks like it may be trying to get credit for ideas from here. Attributions are lacking For a so-called newsman to report something without proper attribution speaks volumes. If I’ve overlooked them, it is likely others have also. Looks like they’re going to try to profit from this site.
The narrative is no better than anyone elses speculations, so I don’t see anything wrong with that. I stopped looking after that.
I’ve lost track …
can anyone tell me when the next official report is due to be released?
(476) I believe on Jan 5th they said it would be 1 more week which I guess is this Friday.
(474) Hi Frances. I think John James called Sara R. a liar directly in a post here and then during an exchange with JoCoSAR said he had heard secondhand that Sara R. was saying things behind John James’s back. To me that is a pretty strong response about someone especially on secondhand information.
It looks like Sara R. and John James will speak on the phone and clear the air.
I have no idea why RRR responded the way she did – I guess she is pretty close to Sara R..
I also think RRR and JoCoSAR just came here to speak their mind just like Brian Anderson and others. It must be frustrating for all of them to sit back and read some of things people are saying and not be able to respond and as their silence continues perceptions and accusations are weaved into one-sided facts.
I think when they are free to speak we are going to get a very different side of things. Phil I think eluded to that with his point about who makes the decisions to call off the search and that Sara R. was NOT in fact the IC here and if she did relay something to Brian Powers it was not her decision but she was passing along the decision of the IC.
As for my questions to John James I am following a list of questions I have for several for several of the figures in this story. What really piqued my interest is when John James made the statement that the media pretty much go it right but the GR report got it wrong. I think the majority of people here truly believe the media got it wrong especially the people on the ground and other LE. That speaks to finding motive for someone making a statement that so many others disagree with.
Understand my goal here is to understand and understanding through the truth will allow all of us to paint a complete picture of what and why.
I think it is absurd and ridiculous that a Charles Wilson can create a narrative and promote it from here that basically convicts Sara R. of being negligent. She hasn’t even had an opportunity to speak her mind. Charles and DH’s world you are guilty and be damned if you can prove yourself innocent.
Don’t even get me going about their comments about James and Kati Kim they are totally out-of-bounds.
Joe
Can you add any clarity to whether Charles Wilson is/is not actually PacNWer thru your registration records? Even if you say it cannot be confirmed one way or the other, that would be something. Maybe you answered this already, but I missed it. This is my first time on a blog, so not sure how the paper trail works.
Despite the unusual posting of Charles Wilson on page one at 399 followed by PacNWer at 400– maybe he registered twice and played an alter ego game. I hope not.
Glenn,
wow you are energy incarnate.
I have missed the thread linking Charles with the Mail Tribune site and with Djdee, can you clear it up or should I do homework? Comments at 431, 434,439. I guess I am asking where is Djdee’s site? Who is Djdee, is she the DH from this blog?
I too am getting a queasy feeling about all this.
Frances, thanks for the reply.
Lisa thanks for the comfort on my upcoming dental appt.
Good morning all.
379 – Phil, thank you for this information. I think most of us here respect Sara Rubrecht and are inclined to agree with you that a rush to judgement is not advisable. Shame on anyone who would send her “hate mail”. As if her job is not hard enough. Whatever future findings may be, I’m glad that she seems to have the support of her team and friends.
380 – Madeleine…..”Joe, Duck!”…..too, funny!
389 – Mapper, you’ve nailed it! I, too, have followed the diatribe of both parties in question, and have come to believe they have just changed their tactics to get their “judgements” viewed.
399 – Thank you Glenn. That gave me my morning laugh!
404 – Det. Mike, great post. As always you are very informative.
432 – “Anyway, folks, come see what we have to say. You’re not going to hear nearly as much from me from here on our.” Assuming you meant “out”, somehow I doubt that.
Have to get down to work now. Everyone have a good day.
Well this morning I called to volunteer for what seemed like a possible SAR mission in a park. The TV reported the lost person in a 20 second “breaking news” segment. I called the non-emergency police number, but the police said the area where the individual was lost was fairly small and it might be a criminal matter. So they didn’t need help. So there’s a tiny, baby-step start.
Frankly I am much closer to doing stuff like this, than spend time grinding up the “truth” here. That is some kind of water torture, when folks can’t respond.
John James:
Take John James, he comes here and tells his story. Good, he is welcomed. He feels bad for not doing more.
John, if you look at it, I could send $30 to some accredited outfit in Africa instead of spending it on myself or my grandkids and probably innoculate 30 kids and save one of their lives– so we do what we can and put these thoughts aside.
You and your family painted directions on the road surface, complained to officials about it and helped redirect stranded travelers. That sounds like good work to me, plus you left ample supplies (bedding, blankets, food, etc.) in your lodge if somebody got in a jam up there in winter. Thanks.
Barnadad – (480)
Good morning – looks like we need more of your awards today!! See post 33 on this page for the connections – I don’t think I can comment civilly about it right now.
Everyone else – good morning, looks like things entered the twilight zone around here last night!
I would like to make one more comment in light of last night’s very heated exchanges. Glenn, you talk about virtual vs. real life. I have to tell you all, that for the most part, your involvement with this story has been purely virtual. I think that what you are doing here is fantastic. However, for some of us, this is real life. There are real careers and reputations at stake. Some of us have worked tirelessly for years trying to make a difference. To have one single incident be the cause of career ending accusations is so very sad. I don’t think that I need to point out that up to this point, they are still only non-confirmed accusations.
This is a small town. I know for me, I have lived here my entire life (with only brief stays elsewhere). I went to elementary school through high school here. Everybody is related somehow. This is a great place to live. Small town has it’s benefits. When somebody is talked about, they find out. Period. There are no secrets in a small town like this. If there is a misunderstanding with myself and John James, that needs to be repaired. We will undoubtedly have to work together in the future and something like this cannot go undiscussed (sorry if that’s not a real word, more coffee, more sleep). I vow to call him personally and clear up any miscommunications between the two of us.
What I want for you to try to understand for just a moment while you are sitting at your computer far away from our real lives here, perhaps even in another state, is that we (those that were involved in this search), are stuck in the vortex of this search. It’s like time has been suspended, yet we still have our “normal” lives to try to live. I for one am having a very difficult time trying to find any sort of normalcy. Some of us have chosen to read along with this group even though we cannot speak. For me, it is my only guage on how others may be responding to information in reports, articles, etc.
I guess my point is, is that for some of you, this may be the only place that you are involved in search conversation. When you go to work, others aren’t talking about it anymore, you have some “Kim down time.” For some of us here, it just doesn’t stop (I know for me anyway). There is still paperwork to be completed, reports to be written and volunteers who still want to vent about it because that’s what the CISD counselor told them to do. We have all had to be each other’s support system, because we are family here in SAR. We lean on each other, we cry together. So, when we come home at night and read some critical statements or accusations from people who may only have limited information, I can guarantee that emotions are going to run high! It doesn’t surprise me that you have heard very emotional outbursts from some of us. Just please, I caution you when you judge us based on those outbursts…we are still very much living this horrific event (the search was bad enough, but the events with the media afterwards were even worse!).
Someone said to me yesterday that I was suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder….I am telling you what…this isn’t POST yet! I am still fresh in it! This is just Traumatic Stress Disorder, period!
I believe that I started into this event with somewhat of a personality disorder..I am a people pleaser. I take everything to heart. I suffer greatly when I think that somebody somewhere doesn’t like me. Perhaps those who know me well can speak to that once we are all able. I am honest to a fault. If someone asks me a question, I answer it. I do not typically stop to evaluate the political implications of an honest answer. For that, I have made a mistake here. Valuable lessons learned.
I have also learned the amazing affect of speculation. What a horrible thing that has turned out to be! I for one will make a very honest effort to limit my personal judgement based on what I read in the newspaper or see on tv.
When trying to explain my “addiction” to this site to others, it is hard to explain why I don’t just walk away from it. Lose the link forever. Well, I guess at this moment, I can’t really explain that to them. I am here, if only in the “read only” mode for now.
I hesitate to attempt to answer questions on this forum after our report is released. I am not sure that the questions will ever end. I have a feeling just by watching questioning here over the past month, that there will be so much hair splitting going on. I don’t think that there will ever be an end to questions. There may be questions that we will never be able to answer for you. No matter how hard we try. There are some of you who I have promised to talk to afterwards. I believe that questions by you will be asked for the right reasons…to make things better. To find or create better solutions. I will do my best in that regard. What I don’t want to do, is find myself wrapped up in detailed, personal questions only to defend someone. It would be too easy to give emotional, defensive responses, which don’t solve any problems at all. So, I haven’t decided yet how to handle the questioning yet, but I have several days to figure it out still.
Thank you to those of you who have managed to suffer through all of this and manage to keep an open mind. I know that it is extremely difficult with the limited information that you have. I think that it will be amazing when the OSSA report is finally released. One thing to point out is that in past searches, normal searches, when we have done an after action review, it has been noted that our documentation process needed to be improved. The details in this report will hopefully prove that we take recommendations from our AAR’s seriously and improve upon them. If we hadn’t improved that process before now, compiling the data about to be released would be near impossible! I just thought that was important to point out.
Ok, so now that I have (I hesitate to say vomitted) spilled more nonsense here this morning, I will sink back to my “read-only” mode. I must get to work and try to carry on.
484-the above post would be from jocosar…sorry
New Oregonian article refuting media air traffic allegations by Spencer Kim, link in a moment. Very interesting, was this issue brought up, as one poster speculated, to distract from another more relevant issue?
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/116831134559880.xml&coll=7
Here is the link!
On a side note, Spencer Kim’s Washington Post editorial ran in todays Opinion page in the Boregonian.
(480) Good morning Bamadad…I have been writing software and building companies for over 25 years both disciplines require a minimum of sleep! At this point I am just used to it. Occasionally I really do love to sleep in.
As for the Pac connection…either Charles Wilson is Pac or directly connected to him. My speculation on it is that Pac got himeself banned over at MT and he had to re-invent himself and instead of arguing to distract this time he had a mission and that mission was to take advantage of Joe’s hospitality and promote their new site. Since they keep getting banned at blogs they have changed their strategy.
The coincidences are just too many and timing is just too perfect.
Also IMO they are looking to profit from this.
In the spirit of the principles of SAR I do not think Charles Wilson, DH or Pac demonstrate any of the qualities that SAR represents and therefore cannot possibly deliver on any promises to improve SAR.
JoCoSAR,
Thank you for the note. I can’t begin to imagine the difficulties for everyone that was closely involved. This was traumatic event, and as you said – more trauma added on everyday.
While I have really learned a lot myself from this site, the atmosphere often goes beyond civil and I think can be counterproductive. I fully support what I believe is the primary agenda of many whom I consider the “Core” posters, and I’m very anxious to see what Glenn and Tara and team are working on. For me wading through all the other agendas is getting to be a little out there – or maybe I just need more coffee and patience today.
Glenn – I’ve hopped over to your site and if that’s a picture of you then you look WAY too young to have been working for 25 years (unless you started when you were 5!) 🙂
(484) Thanks for the thoughtful post JoCoSAR. Appreciate what you are going through and we are all looking forward to the OSSA report.
One more note…I am tired of talking about myself as a third person. Most of you have figured it out, and I am in no way doubting your intelligence…I am Sara R.
Since I know that this will be my last post until the report comes out, I thought it was only fair to be the one that “outed” myself! There, that feels better. Thank you.
(491) Thanks Angela! You should see my dad! 🙂 We are very fortunate to age gracefully but I assure you I have been at this for many many years!
PS – Literally up until a few agos I have always battled he must be too young to be doing all of this.
(493) WOW…to use Paul’s terminology…
Kaboom!
(491) and that photo was taken in 2003…FYI. 🙂
Glenn – not doubting you a bit – your experience shows in your posts. Just amazed when you said 25 years! I’ll bet in the circles it sounds like you’ve been running in that it has been a literal issue for you – I’ll bet you get called the ‘kid’ a lot 🙂
JoCoSar/Sara R. ,,,
Yes, We pretty much knew right from the start based on the tenor of your posts, however, your posts are very much appreciated by us and we do hope that you will continue to post whenever you feel moved to clarify the record.
I never addressed anything to you as ‘SaraR’ and I will continue to refer to you as JoCoSar. I’ve posted before about the differences between those who post from the comfort of their computer stations and those who are out there in the cold and damp taking far more effective action than anyone in their living room is. The mistakes some posters make are referred to as typos. Typos will no more hurt the missing person than perfect keyboarding skills will help the missing person.
Do not think that any of us are unappreciative of the difference between those who slosh through the cold and damp and those who merely post about the SAR missions.
Fools Gold – Well Said!
JoCoSAR (490) Speaking of typos! I did not mean the second paragraph to be aimed at you and in second reading realize the appearance. I was venting my frustration in reading last nights posts and the whole other site agenda etc.
Just wanted to set the record straight – now time for more coffee! (and patience 🙂 )
Jocosar,
I will be waiting for your call or if you like I can call you. We both know how to contact each other.
I feel we both need some healing and to explain things more thoroughly.
I look forward to the opportunity.
John
495 – Hadn’t you surmised her identity already, Glenn? I thought most of us had.
484 – Sara I don’t think any of us can comprehend the pressures and emotions of those involved in the Kim Family search, let alone the aftermath. I for one feel that no explanations are required to the general public, only the officials in charge. Having said that, I appreciate the efforts of so many who have come to Joe’s blog and try to facilitate an understanding of SAR in general, and as it relates to this specific case. Any and all improvements or lessons learned can only be for the best.
Take care of yourself, and please know that I mean that in the best sense. Hopefully there will come a time when all interested parties can heal from this tragedy.
(502) Who me…figure anything out? I just sit here in the dark just typing…LOL.
Yes I had my hunch. 🙂
503 – Well said, Adirondacker.
(501) John that is thoughtful post. I hope that they two of you can clear the air – very important I think.
JoCoSAR and John
I’m over 1000 miles away. I understand you both seem to be good people with similiar goals. Sara, I had thought it was you as well, and was happy to talk with you previously. Last night was the first we have seen of John and I just wanted to thank him for his part as well. From where I sit you both seem like great people. I said something last night, that I hope you didn’t take the wrong way Sara, I thank John for what he did and asked him to please not beat himself up over this, as I can clearly see his feelings are genuine, as I see your feelings are genuine. It sounds like a misunderstanding to me and….we all know that happens all the time. I didn’t mean to suggest you deliberatley ignored John when he mentioned the roads to you.
Now, from where I sit THAT is about as much as I want to say on that subject as i feel it really doesn’t concern me. Just that you should know most people on the outside are not worried about such details.
Now, I didn’t even read everything carefully, you all said to each other, so if I missed the whole point, sorry. But that should tell you something!
From today’s article in the Oregonian…
Separately Monday, state Rep. John Lim, R-Gresham, introduced legislation inspired by the Kim search and the search for three climbers lost on Mount Hood. The lawmaker wants to create a state fund to help pay liability insurance and workers’ compensation so more people can volunteer for rescues, stiffen penalties for tampering with signs marking a closed road, allow families access to credit card and phone records in emergencies and require climbers on Mount Hood to carry locator beacons.
source:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/116831134559880.xml&coll=7
hi, all. just checking in. Jocosar, thank you for taking the time and effort on that post. I think one of the great benefits from this site is the collaboration of opinions from outsiders, professionals, volunteers and family in an effort to promote critical thinking and positive change or perhaps a more supportive role from us, in the future, if needed. I believe this to be a very unique group that has the aim of being helpful and supportive. (for the most part) 🙂 I for one, am very thankful to all who helped save kati and her babies. thank you.
Jocossar- as you can see, we all appreciate you. It’s the gag order that is making this worse than it needs to be. Though a gag order is a typical government response, in this day and age (internet) it just doesn’t work like it used to. I really hope it will be lifted soon. Based on what I have learned so far, I think you can feel good about what you have done. Don’t let the people like PaC. Wilson get you down.
498/Fool’s Gold – well said.
484/JoCoSar: Thank you for your heartfelt, emotional post.
We truly cannot comprehend what you are going through and I hope you know you have the support of most who post on this forum. We all anxiously await the OSSA report. Speaking for myself, I suspect it will answer many questions and we will find that the truth – as it often does – lies somewhere in the middle of the many oppossing opinions expressed here.
Two things you said I want to comment on:
“So much hair splitting going on…” – hit home for me. I think we a have all – self included – at times analyzed this to a level of detail that some would classify as overkill. In my line of work, there is a term for those who never reach conclusions because they are so busy arguing fine points – analysis paralysis. I remain hopeful that we will refocus after the report on the larger, more actionable issues and dispense with some of the minutia.
“The amazing affect of speculation…what a horrible thing that has turned out to be.” It doesn’t require elaboration, the comment stands on its merits. People (again self included)- have judged, re-judged, made sweeping generalizations, resorted to name calling, reached unfounded or unsupported conclusions, the list goes on and on. I think we could all benefit from, as you say, limiting our personal judgements going forward (to the degree that we can).
Having now said all that, I still think this is the best, by far, forum around on this incident. While I have lurked other places, this is the only place I have posted. Our sock difference of opinion notwithstanding, I cannot post on a forum where editorial control is wielded by those have an obvious bias.
Yes, critical thinking and not personal allegiances/alliances is what is most important to me as well. Of course people who feel such allegiances/alliances may take offense. But no offense it intended. I don’t feel that justice will be done to James Kim, or that lessons that can be learned will really be learned, if they are glossed over.
478- Hi! glenn – Speaking of over, I know it seems mostly ‘over’ now, but I think it is very important to clear the record. John James called Sara R a liar not only because he had heard that she was saying a lot of things behind his back, but primarily and directly because he read her post(s) here where she said he had been changing his story. Very important!
I also find your questions about him and his relations with the media really surprising and out there for you. And I am beginning to think you really do need more sleep!
Because to me, critical thinking is what is most important, I am not one to agree that the media got it All oh so wrong. I really do not work for the Oregonian, and I don’t know anyone who does. But I am sure that they have almost if not all, of the direct quotes they used on tape. [It sure would be nice if we could get any of them here to verify that! Santa? Is that possible?]
I think they may have slanted some of the material slightly to point toward inefficiency and inadequacy in the search efforts. But they also do the highest level of investigative reporting, and they have really broken some very big important stories, even national stories. [I saw a program on investigative reporters in the US on a public television documentary program and they were included.)
It seems to me that what is really behind a lot of the complaints about the Oregonian articles is that people didn’t like the exposure and the way the articles made them look. I’m sure they wouldn’t be complaining if the article had heralded them as heroes, no matter what other minor inaccuracies or portrayals there might have been.
That is not to say I don’t think the media may have gotten some things wrong. I really just don’t think, they got it as wrong as some people here seem to believe at this time. It’s like they’ve become the safest place to place blame on in this story.
What if they come here, and explain their side, and have the proof they have of what they said. And you can tell that they’re good people, and then you say “Hey now that you’re here and you’ve explained yourself, and we’ve heard your side, we realize we were wrong to say all those things we said, and once again, we see the bigger picture now.”
Because they are media, I don’t know if there are legal reasons why they couldn’t come here, or how many questions they could answer. But it would be interesting! 🙂
Gayle at 508, I was just ready to post that.
That legislation is a good start. Wow, wouldn’t it be great to know if Rep Gresham or his staff ever visited this site.
I will say that the CascadeClimbers.com , whose site I followed during the Mt.Hood search has many, many members who oppose the personal locator beacons. It is an extra expense, extra weight, and rarely needed to find someone on the mountain. It will be interesting to hear the position of the Mountain SAR rescue folks on that portion. So maybe the legislation will be altered as to time, place and skill for the PLBs or eliminated.
These experienced climbers are like the explorers and astronauts of our age. I am talking about the real devoted ones who take on rock faces and aided climbs from Rainer to Denali.
off the the dentist ::groan:: later, all.
Comment by JoCoSAR | December 29, 2006:
”
I just a few days ago realized that the 34-8-36 road is actually the same as the Bear Camp Road off of Galice Creek.
”
I think this shows just how confusing the roads and naming conventions must be up there.
(512) Lisa, the comment John James referenced from JoCoSAR she had also previously corrected a little further down from her original post. She made it clear back then it was a mistake in her post – she was most definitely supporting him and she cleared it up again last night. For some reason nobody still wants to point that out.
problem with non-threaded posts is you can miss corrections buried within the thread.
So based on what I knew he said that only from second-hand information and John even said that.
I am sure both John and Sara will clear the air with each other.
Important to note that John James never directly talked to Sara R. while out on the road. John James talked to the Deputy that was with Sara R.. John could have easily cleared that up last night but chose not to.
Just to clear the record.
(511) Paul so now that you have a chance to see Charles Wilson’s manifesto…what do you think now?
My thought is that Brenda H., Pac, DH and few others are all together because they either got themselves banned from other blogs or grew tired of their arguments falling on deaf ears. Their collective activities have all but ceased anywhere else now.
(508) Good find Gayle that could be a step in the right direction.
One thought I keep having is that there will be some sort of swing back to far and they will really lock down those roads. I hope a balanced approach is applied so that people with know how and local experience can still enjoy those areas.
glenn (#516), please let *them* post the facts. JoCoSARa herself posted this: “The comment that I heard that Sara made to him that he thought was curt, was “Be careful, I would not want to have to come and look for you two up here as well.” ”
In other words, she herself posted here that she herself made a comment to him. Yet you say “John James never directly talked to Sara R.”. Please, seriously, stop posting your version of facts, and leave that to the people that have the facts.
I’ve you’ve read or been told a direct contradiction to this, then please note it as such, not as a fact.
I’m just sayin’.
“If you’ve read”, not “I’ve you’ve read” in #519. Sorry.
Just about ot the door, checking one more time, am I hooked or what?
518 – Did i read something wrong last tnight in regard to John James’s statement about who he talked with about the tracks?
112 – “Sara R. and the Deputy with her said “they had it handled” so we left.”
157 – “I will testify under oath as to my converstion with the deputy and Sara R.”
It seemed to me that he stated he spoke with both people, not just the deputy.
No judgements, just clarifying, to attempting to.
521 – “or” attempting to.
516- Glenn
Well, I’ll have to go back and look at all of that,
but just the other day in one of your posts, you said that JoCoSAR had said that John James had been changing his story, so you were using that information in that way, ‘uncorrected’.
As far as I can tell, John James was talking to both Sara R and the deputy at the same time. Maybe he was closer in position to the deputy, but she was there…
He said he would easily and readily take a lie detector test. He has nothing to hide. It will be interesting to see if Sara R would be willing to take a lie detector test after the investigation.
Paul re 511: “I cannot post on a forum where editorial control is wielded by those have an obvious bias.” – Paul
Do you not think that exists here? Actually, one of our main goals is to avoid exercising any of our biases (which everyone has)in the forum. It is not important to me if you go there or not. I would venture to say that if you do post over there, that you will not be attacked for your opinion by an arrogant core group. You will also not be the subject of endless malicious commentary when people think you are not reading. Our goal is not to do battle with this forum, but cooexist in a complementary and constructive atmosphere, all moving toward positive results in our own nitch, encouraging freedom of speech and community as fellow citizens.
Rodney – What Sara said a few thousand posts ago obviously wasn’t meant for people to dissect every word as if it was scripture or something.
(519) Please see post (260) from JoCoSAR…exactly what did I get wrong? Guess you missed the “facts” spoken directly from JoCoSAR.
(524) I can’t believe you can say that. Your analysis and conclusions section of your narrative is one of the most arrogant pieces I have ever read.
525- I think Rodney has had very good points all along.
Obviously, what people say is important.
re524: Yes, Glenn, I think I know by now what your opinion is on the subject.
Hmm…just want to throw this out there once more. Dh (dee) you were only censored when you gave JoCo’s identity away. And only ONE person has been asked to not comment here (at least that is my understanding and I believe Joe has posted this above).
And if anyone questions abusiveness all they have to do is look back at his posts or on the MT forum.
Joe has been extremely tolerant, especially to those who have had the nerve to bash kati and james right in front of their own family members. (if it were my forum you would have been banned).
[516] .. “John could have easily cleared that up last night but chose not to.”
Glenn, I wished you’d chosen “did not” rather than chose not..
Glenn: I am not sure who told you Pac had been banned at MT, but he is still there, post 1153 @ 10:53 last night….not that that proves anything either way.
(531) Thanks Kip…yes I need some sleep. 🙂
At least we will know the more complete set of offical search facts when the OSSA report is completed. And I’m sure that will be very interesting.
Okay, thanks glenn (#526), so JoCoSARa has posted “The comment that I heard that Sara made to him. . .” and she has also posted “it was not Sara R. that you had a conversation with . . . she was quiet.”. So she clearly has contradicted herself. NOTE: This is not really a big deal, as I’m sure those posts can be interpreted to make sense with each other.
You posted “Important to note that John James never directly talked to Sara R.”. Your statement only takes into account her latest quote. I’m pointing out her earlier one.
JoCoSAR,
Thank you for your post. I can appreciate the frustration being under a gag order creates. Nor did I have a problem with defending up for yourself, it was just the attack on John about the CNN money that I felt was out of line. But I also know that emotions can & do run high on here sometimes and from time to time have lashed out myself. Thank you for ‘outting’ yourself.
As I stated here many eons ago, I also grew up in a small town and fully appreciate and understand the dynamics there.
I do hope you and John do get together and work things out. I have seen a misunderstanding split a small town when instead the incident itself should bring a small town together. I have also seen people in a small town who have a problem with each other carry it on forever through others and never sit down face to face. Personally, for me the dynamics of a small town is what caused me to leave as soon as I could. Now that I am older and in my present circumstanes, there are many, many times I long for that small town. I know there would be a least a dozen people to help me with anything I needed on a moments notice and refuse any payment, I know there would be people there for me who care. I also understand that sometimes in a small town, when higher ups make mistakes, to protect themselves, often they will let the lower guy be the fall guy. I am NOT saying that is what’s happening. At this point, I’m trying hard to reserve judgement and there is just too much information still unanswered. And as you said, there are some quesions which are NEVER going to be able to answered. And you are in the thick of it and I am just sitting here at my computer screen.
You want to know honestly what my first thought was? Oh Geesh, you know where to find each other, don’t avoid each other, just face each other & settle. My father was a big fish in a little sea, no he was not involved in politics, is too complicated to explain, and unfortunately, I have seen him fan many a flame and insist many take sides in a dispute. I have seen him talk about people behind their back yet refuse to face them and sort an issue out. I hate to see anyone fall into the negative side of the small town dynamic, so you guys, if I were there, I’d call each one of you and invite you to my house, put on a large pot of Dutch Brothers, and go in my bedroom, turn my TV up loud and let you sort it out. Pull together, not apart, OK?
Also, glenn (#516), you said “the comment John James referenced from JoCoSAR she had also previously corrected a little further down from her original post. She made it clear back then it was a mistake in her post”.
Please provide a page and post number for where she “corrected” it and “made it clear back then”.
Below is the last half of post #887 on page 2. Perhaps you’re talking about the sentences that followed in the same post? I have read the rest of her posts on page 2, and I didn’t see any correction or clarification a “little further down”. But I might have missed it. I’m just looking for the facts. That’s all.
Page 2 #887, second half: “John James has changed his story many times. Not really relevant. The comment that I heard that Sara made to him that he thought was curt, was “Be careful, I would not want to have to come and look for you two up here as well.” Regardless of that particular conversation, whether he searched “his road” or not, we know now that the car was found 6.37 miles past where he would have driven anyway. Hence the reason that we cannot clear a road completely until it is driven to the end of the road by one of our own searchers and marked off on a map. We were in the process of doing just that. I would not put any blame on Mr. James regardless of what was said that day or even if he had told someone that he had searched to his lodge. I personally dont think that anyone deserves any blame of any kind. I think that we can learn from this lesson and move on as better people for the next time…there will be a next time, undoubtedly.”
Frances…how is that dutch brothers anyway!?
Finally, just in case, I’m not out to get *anybody*. Last night I directed John James to comments that had been posted on this thread, just to get his take. He responded.
Since then, some posts have questioned what the various posts were about, and what they contained. I’m just trying to make sure I didn’t miss something. At all times, I’m trying only to refer to actual posts and actual quotes from posts on this comment thread. Certainly with 7000 posts, I might have missed a lot.
Thanks and sorry.
538 mapper A+!
399 – Glenn, you found the video!! I had missed the post earlier. That is exactly the one I was thinking about when using the term to describe what Joe does. Only in my mind, the critters go off in all different directions, like we do.
Dee,
I just read your site. Why are you and Charles Wilson anonymous? When I hit “About Us” it is just some generalized, “We are Westerners. ….”
Your site would have much more credibility if you posted your bio’s and gave actual contact information. Charles said here he was a long time journalist but there is no mention of that on your site.
Frankly, I think without this information, your site will just wither among millions of blogs/ single event forums. You could actually accomplish something with more full disclosure.
Also can you confirm that Charles Wilson is not PacNWer? I think that is only fair to the readers on your forum.
If PacNWer had a conversion, then I would like to hear that.
Thanks.
524/Dee: Mapper said it better than I could.
Attacking different opinions to excess is counterproductive. I agree. I also agree this forum has been guilty of that at times….but it pales hugely in comparison to what Pac and others do over at M.T.
I don’t think people jumped on Brenda W for her opinion so much as she kept repeating it over and over and over. She was never, however, censored or banned to the best of my knowledge. I think her theory is very interesting. I look forward to the sheriff’s report shedding more light on it.
People took exception to your comments because they seemed inconsistent and very contradictory to posts you were making at the same time over on M.T., your apology to Kati’s dad being the most glaring example versus what you wrote over on M.T. a short time later.
I commend your goal to avoid exercising any of your biases on your new site, but I think it has bias nonetheless. You think JD has bias, you’re probably right, but Joe has censored only one poster, ever, that I am aware of, and he has made it his stated objective to do as little of that as possible. He has also, repeatedly, taken people to task for the equivalent of shouting people down. I commend his site and his efforts.
JoCoSAR
I want you to know that your honest and sincere post this morning was deeply touching to me. I had to get up and walk away from my computer and get myself together. I wish I could just come up there and give you a big hug.
I haven’t followed this closely enough to know who is who, but I did get a little “Aha!” feeling as I read your words. I have been mostly interested in getting the gist, and facts, as best we can, of the story. I am a baby blogger mostly motivated by wanting to know how it was for the people involved. Your courage in revealing your struggles, frustrations and real hurts meant a lot to me.
Please know that many of us who are following this story, both in the media and through various forums (this being the most addicting, thought-provoking and heart wrenching), are keeping an open mind and heart. I would venture to say this is true for all, even the more analytical of this blog bunch, and those who have had emotional outbursts, anger, tears—things that cause us to get up and walk away from our computers for a while. We are each getting something valuable out of this exchange and it is touching lives. Else, why would we all still be here?
I am glad that you have, and you have taken, the opportunity to be yourself here as much as you have. In this case, one of the benefits of this virtual world is that we can reach out (yes, positive and negative) and touch in this way in real time.
I look forward to future posts from you and John James and trust you will come to a better understanding after you talk.
RodneyG thanks for your posts.
I have tried to stay away from the “He said, she said”.
As I said much earlier, at the end of this whole process (Task Force, legislation), I hope if I ever get lost, it is in your neck of the woods. Sort of like NYC is now one of the safest cities in America.
536/Frances: I really enjoy and appreciate your insights into the dynamics of small town relationships…have been around a few small towns in my life and find them spot-on.
(535) Rodney…I will get back to you my businesses are requiring a lot of my attention today. If you also want to email me I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.
One of the issues of a non-threaded forum is that I have had to build an external database to track the information and all of the “facts” and I definitely have it cross-referenced and some of the information may have come from external sources – I do receive a fair amount of email on the topic sometimes as we all have seen it is near impossible to keep all of the events, time they happened, who said what-where straight. Information overload.
You and I have the same goal – get the facts and get them straightened out.
536 # They define the term ‘double edged sword”
D.H.’s name, address, phone, and e-mail can be obtained from a simple whois search on kimtragedy.info. Not that anyone cares. Unless she makes it private before you do your search.
Dee or “charles”
If you’ll clear up the charles/pac identity, we might get to see some sock eatin’ or a singing/dancing combo. wouldnt that be fun??? Although I fully want it to be proven that Charles is pac b/c I believe it so, a tiny part of me wants to see a picture or mapper eatin’ a sock 🙂 I know I know, Id have to eat one too, but I didnt promise pictures 🙂
Tara,
I’d make it look tres chic, it would become all the rage.
But I still dont think we have any trustworthy sources…but dare I say…Dee has a history of spilling the beans….
Must go for now, get the things done which must be done to sustain a life, especially so I can hopefully have the time to be on here in the evening when things tend to happen!!
550- Part of me wanted to say that last night! I’m really tempted to see a mapper sock eating picture! 🙂 It almost sounds irresistible!
Good Afternoon folks!
Okay I don’t mean to bring that other site over here but the people here seem to know the ins and outs better than most.
The Associated Press reported that, in interviews with authorities after her rescue, Mrs. Kim described pausing at the intersection, looking up Bear Camp Road and seeing a fourth sign warning that “Road May Be Blocked by Snowdrifts 6 Miles Ahead.” — KimTragedy.com
Cite please! Link please!
554/RRR – Wecome back !…we’ve missed you. Things are quite a bit calmer here this morning.
Well that is good
They liked my “Kaboom” when JoCo got on last night…it’s been referenced several times.
Yes, it is good.
Her long post this morning touched many of us.
I also wanted to say that another way of saying critical thinking is objective thinking. It’s just meant to thoroughly take all sides into consideration, and not be biased, but to understand all of the cause/effect relationships involved, for constructive purposes.
559- Yeah well she hit quiet a few nails on the head in that posting
It seems that Sara R may be taking this too personally, and making this too personal.
The big picture is that these are investigations and questions about an SAR case where she had a role. Her role is being looked into, but so is everyone elses.
We will see the results of the investigation when the OSSA Report comes out. And then she will be able to speak more freely about her experience.
She knows that her work, like all LE/SAR work, involves responsibilities that can potentially affect whether people
live or die, and such investigations can be commonplace when lives are lost.
I think that this has been hard and a lot of pressure, but she will come out of all of this fine. I think the less personally she takes this, the better she will be. She sounds very strong, and she has a lot of personal support.
562/RRR – Any new ETA on the report beyond what we already know, which is vague to say the least ?
563- How can you not take it personally…its her job…what she does day in and day out and puts her heart into her job…How can you not take it peronally.
I think when the report comes out many people will be surprised as to the info in it and pathways it was gatehered. Thats all I can say on that.
564- No info on the report
563/Lisa: I respectfully disagree with her taking this “too personally”. Her reputation and actions have been roundly & harshly criticized; she has been the subject of a media firestorm/circus of unprecedented & epic proportions; she has been totally unable – in conjunction with those criticisms – to speak up and defend herself due to a gag order.
Too personally?? How could you not take all of that VERY personally?
Lisa, I understand what you are saying but imho how can you not take this personally? I hope if ever I get lost or am in need of a SAR operation, that everyone involved takes it personally. as if I were a family member. just my opinion.
deleted
to ellaborate on 567, once you’re that involved, I think it would be *very* hard to just detatch, and allow critism and judgement from outsiders to just roll off you. too hard. imo
Mr. Fitzwater,
Now THAT is good writing.
(571) its real gud!
charles, can I borrow your dictionary? 🙂
568 – “Yawping philosophies”, “lickspittles”, LOL. I think Pac/CW has met his match!
568 Utterly and totally descends to the boorish & offensive level of Pac. What is this, 2 wrongs make a right ? Give me a break. You’re all on a witchhunt of epic proportions.
Quote – “Mr. Wilson respects nothing, honors nothing, and values nothing beyond himself, don’t you think?” – Lee Fitzwater.
My answer? yes, that is what I think.
567- Tara – that’s not what I meant. I feel the same way that people should always take it personally when doing an SAR operation – as if they are looking for a family member.
I just mean when a situation is investigated, that it’s best if people don’t take it so personally.
She’ll be able to clear up whatever she wants soon.
I’m just saying that there is a much bigger picture here,
and it hasn’t been all about her, and it shouldn’t be all about her. There are a lot of factors involved.
I’m just saying investigations are part of this line of work, and they’re not for the personal bad, they’re for the greater good.
566- And Paul I think you’re making it a bigger deal than it’s really been. Like Mapper said, she has a friend who is a journalist in California and hasn’t even heard of this case.
When the results of the OSSA come out, things will be able to be cleared up.
We can’t not have investigations just because people might not like their roles being looked into.
OK, where are the guys in the white suits?
Maybe Mr. Fitzwater knows a bit more than your giving him credit for.
574 – Perhaps he’s illustrating the absurd with absudity, as others have been known to do?
How about putting the question this way: How would you suggest the/such investigations and the results be handled by all involved?
579. I dont know Madeleine. There is something fishy about it indeed. Perhaps Mr. Fitzwater can expand on what he knows about Charles Wilson.
Some of the phrases sound “generated” by a computer. But….we shall see….
All I am saying is that everyone can make it worse for themselves when they focus on taking it really personally.
As part of our ongoing quest for accuracy, we would like to interview participants in the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6. We strongly prefer on-the-record discussions, but if you can make a case for confidentiality we will honor it.
Here’s how we’ll conduct interviews:
– By phone
– Recorded
– If requested by us or you within 24 hours, a followup interview to clear up ambiguities
– Complete recordings and transcripts to be published on our website as soon as possible after the interview
– You can expect a professional, respectful, candid and thorough discussion. We will expect the same.
Contact us through the website and we’ll set it up. Be prepared to verify your identity.
I am dying to know what Joe *really* thinks about all this!!!
583 – I’ll bet they’ll be lining up to do interviews.
583 😆 🙄
579/581: What is absurd is the obsession with Pac being CW; what is absurd is this obsession their website; what is the most absurd is the rambling, offensive nonsense of 568.
Joe banned Pac days ago.
Disagree with DH & CW if you want, but they have generally been civil and polite. They have their own sandbox now, let them go play in it. When I see a post like 568 it screams hypocrite to me, all your doing is descending to the same low level as those you criticize.
I like the title of Joes latest blog entry though….
I am postive its just a coeincedence….
584/Mapper: I have a pretty good idea what Joe will think about it, I will eat my sock if I am wrong ! 🙂
585 – Forgot to add: /end sarcasm.
583 – Did everyone hear that rush for the phone?
🙂 I need to get some work done today, you guys are too funny. I finally watched the herding cats video too! hahaha.
Paul, Spencer appears to be alive and well on the comments section of Joes latest blog entry! just thought I would let you know!!
(587) Are you that upset that you were wrong?
Kaboom!
Chill out my friend…life is too short.
Now I have to go back to work.
For the record I found Lee H. Fitzwater’s post to be most entertaining and very well written – could even rise to the level of masterpiece.
can’t we just ignore it all an it will go away….can you promote your web like that on a blog….is there a standard for that??
588 – That is funny, good catch.
593 – No one has presented one iota of concrete proof that is true. It is ALL circumstantial. If I am wrong I will be the 1st to admit it, but 568 hardly constitutes proof. I maintain it is going be impossible to definitively prove either way.
Glenn – I agree
But I do fear it could be from a “complain generator” I respectfully wait for more info (or not, just move on)
Our mystery remains (for those of you are not so certain, like me, who would promise to eat a sock over it).
(596) If Pac were not involved they would have already said it.
I can’t believe you don’t see it…Pac word for word is represented in that manifesto which I have labeled The Kim Jihad! Face it – the “outcasts” got together and created their own world that they can control.
It’s about control Paul, control.
How covenient that Brenda, DH, Pac all vanished and then all of sudden re-appeared? How do you feel about them completely plugging and promoting their agenda here off of Joe’s hard work?
If they had something so valuable to share don’t you think everybody would already be over there?
They have to keep coming back here to troll. They are not interested in the truth as so much to help but to generate traffic so they can profit from it. The want sheeple not people.
This is all starting to get my hackles up a bit. Back when the Oregonian article first came out many of you said some very damming things about various SAR people. I argued, repeatedly at the time, that it was unfair to judge them before their side of the story was told, and made comments about due process and a fair and equal hearing of the facts. That did not stop many folks from saying unfair & mean spirited things that all but presumed guilt…things they seem to have conveniently forgotten having said.
This issue seems to have very similar overtones. CW and DH are entitled to their opinions, however much we may disagree with them. The rhetoric here often has all the decorum of a lynch mob. It lends strong credence to the criticism that alternative viewpoints that are unsympathetic to the Kim’s are not tolerated on this site.
568 Huh?
I think I need that college writing course worse than I thought I did…… 😉
Glenn, Paul
I think your both right, if thats possible. Well I do.
I really believe what I think is the truth here, but Paul I really respect your point of view and completley understand what you are saying, and its very true.
Although, I don’t agree that CW and DH have been very civil, and I think we differ on that.
ps paul
remember,I didn’t want to talk about it and you kept asking me! I dont think its a witch hunt…
598/Glenn: I don’t like them plugging their site, but candidly I don’t know what accepted protocol is. I think it is Joe’s call to make.
They’ll get who they get, so what, who cares? Let the sheeple congregate, it’s a free country. Does that justify the kind of gibberish in 568 that just brings this forum down to a level no better than that of Pac ?
(603) Paul we are all guilty of stooping to the level of Pac on numerous occassions…nothing like the pot calling the kettle black.
601/Mapper: I e-mailed Joe privately asking him to weigh in when 568 1st posted. I think it is offensive and out of place. I have consistently found his moderating to be, well, moderate, and I defer to his judgement.
There are lots of other more germane things to discuss. The article in the Oregonian this a.m. was interesting. The dialogue with John James; the insights this a.m. of Sara R; all the great feedback from the detective….it just seems to me to detract from what is otherwise a solid place to be.
I’m really getting back to work now
3rd favorite term learned on this forum “sheeple”
It sounds like Pac and Lee must know each other well!
For Lee it sounds too well! 😦
I am happy to have had only limited experience.
I will not/have not gone to that site. Too evil.
604 – I’d like to hope we haven’t descended quite that low. 🙂 If we have, wouldn’t it improve things to try to stop? Doesn’t it make us all a bit hypocritical if we don’t try?
(608) You keep helping Pac with his mission to disrupt this forum – DROP IT.
Paul, your views, and those of anyone else who posts here or anywhere else — or who hasn’t posted anywhere as of this point — are welcome on our site, consistent with our posting rules.
I should also say that, with respect to the recording of interviews, I will provide all interview subjects with a copy of the recording via e-mail within minutes of the end of an interview.
Dee and I are interested in factual accounts of the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6. Our analysis and conclusions are rooted in fact and logic. We will incorporate additional information as it becomes available.
From our comment rules:
We wish to minimize:
– Emotionalism
– Nitpicking
– Sarcasm, sourness, sore feet …
– Jockeying for the last word, baiting and pointless babbling
610- Why are you doing this “interviewing” isn’t that the point of the OSSA reports and the GR…..What do you expect to dig up differently??
[607] “I will not/have not gone to that site. Too evil.” …. ditto.. (again)!
609 ME ???? Oh please !! I defer to Joe’s greater judgement, not yours (STOP IT). Last time I checked, it was his forum. I f I listed all the posts where you’ve stirred this pot it would run on forever.
611 / Great point!
a
deleted
RRR78 (post #611), this blog has attracted postings from people who claim — credibly, to me — to be participants. However, those postings are not the product of thorough, careful interviews.
I have conducted thousands of interviews. It’s something I know how to do. And to eliminate any suspicion that we are withholding material as a means of serving our preliminary analysis and conclusions, the recordings themselves and the transcripts will be published.
I highly doubt that the OSSA investigators will do that. They will publish a report, but almost certainly not their primary source material. The offer to conduct a followup interview is further effort to insure accuracy. I don’t want to catch someone in a misstatement. We seek accuracy, not just of quotes but of accounts.
Dee and I understand the suspicion that greets our efforts, especially on the part of those who disagree with our preliminary analysis and conclusions. The interviews, if we get any takers, will be as transparent as it gets.
We think it’s time to move beyond emotionalism and seek definition. Only by accurately understanding what happened can the appropriate lessons be learned and the right steps be taken to reduce the chances of a similar tragedy. Ultimately, that’s our goal.
Charles do you really think you will make a buck with your perchy endeavor? Try Monster.com.
LHF
LHF – that did not sound computer generated.
Charles – see WHOSE definition? yours? I already know the answer to that.
LHF – welcome, but be nice to paul 🙂
(616) All hail the great one! We are so humbled with your infinite wisdom and ability to see and know all.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Charles 583, 610 Personal Interviews.
1. Please, don’t take offense, interviews like you suggest are based on mutual trust. So I would need to know your name, address, experience and biography before I would consent to an interview. I need a few more credentials than an anonymous website, with some vague promise of fairness and not even a phone number in Seattle. I saw the movie “Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan (2006)
2. I would need to know if you would “own” my story and the tape you make of it. Would I ever be able to tell my story to someone else, or write about in my diary or journal? Do you want me to sign a “release”?
3. Would the release I sign permit you to sell my story and likeness (photo) to others?
4. I would like to see a contract that would protect me before I give you information whether or not any payment was involved. For example, if a legitimate news source like CBS or ABC wanted me to tell my story to them which I would do for free, would you prevent me or expect compensation from me or from CBS, ABC, etc.?
5. I think I would need legal advice before I became entangled in something without knowing what I was doing. You said you were a journalist for 20 years, so I would think these are standard questions. I saw some mighty sorry people on Borat.
6. On the other hand, if you just want to shoot the breeze in a civilized manner and try to solve something, I am all ears.
Respectfully,
😀 Attention 😀
Charles Wilson and Lee H. Fitzwater need to check in with me via email ASAP. Thank you.
Bamadad, if you are a participant in the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6 please contact us and we’ll discuss all of your questions. Briefly:
– I am not going to give anyone my home address
– I will own the transcript. Each of us will own the recording.
– I’m not in this for money. I have enough money.
(621) Charles Wilson put your money where your mouth is.
Will you and your crew match $ for $ the money that we donate to Oregon SAR?
😀 Attention 😀
I’ve moderated comment the Lee Fitzwater comment about Charles Wilson pending more information.
This has changed the numbering which I’m trying to fix…
*STANDING AND APPLAUDING*
glenn, my money is my own business. Neither you, nor anyone else, should ever presume to tell me what to do with my money. Mind you own business.
But I will say this much: I have plenty of money. I know how to make money, and I know how money is made. I am reasonably familiar with how money flows in the publishing business. I would be shocked, to put it mildly, if this website that Dee and I have started generated a nickel. It’s not even remotely in the picture for either of us.
We started that website for the reasons stated there. It is intended as a public service. I’m sorry you don’t see it that way, but I can’t do anything about that.
(625) ah ya, I will make note of that.
Thanks Charles, ah er Pac or whomever you are.
Interesting how you want to own all the material – if it were a PUBLIC SERVICE you would put it all in the PUBLIC DOMAIN – the only reason you want ownership is for making money later.
Anything we develop or discover during this process will ultimately be placed in the public domain with absolutely NO STRINGS attached.
It will be given to any organization that needs or wants it. It will be given in a manner that is appropriate to memorialize and to honor the sacrifice James Kim gave to his family.
Ultimately we hope that the tools, knowledge will lead to making a difference in future SAR operations regardless of where they are or whom they are for.
Anybody ever hear of the term “divide and conquer”? Seems to me that might be happening here. People who were congenial posters a few hours/days ago, are now scratching at each other. That’s sad. One thing I’ve liked so much about this blog is the working together for the common good.
Whether or not Charles Wilson and Pac are one in the same, or if you found Lee Fitzwater’s post agreeable or offensive, I tend to think that when we start arguing amongst ourselves, they’re sitting at their computers, clapping. It’s called control.
It’s very possible that some people will eventually show up to post on Pac & Dee’s site (although I would strongly advise thoroughly looking at the registration agreement and requesting more concrete information on their identities). Maybe some will even give an interview or two. But, it would be nice to get back to the mutually fulfilling exchange of POSITIVE ideas and suggestions here at the Joe Duck blog. I know that is what I’m going to try to do, and I hope others feel the same way.
Charles,
I am having serious doubts about anything you say to begin with.
But tell me this, why would anyone want to be interviewed by you, having already seen a sample here of your bias and selective use of the definition of words? Why would anyone subject themself to that?
I hope everyone involved is extremely careful who they talk to.
But atleast, here, on this forum, they will not be misquoted.
As for Kati, I sure hope she is being VERY careful about who she talks to, and is screening her calls very closely.
😀 ATTENTION 😀
* I’ve deleted the comments by L.H. Fitzwater – it appears these were maliciously posted by somebody else.
* Please stop discussing Charles Wilson’s identity. I do not believe he is PacNWer but that is not very relevant to the facts of the case or the big story, which is about the Kim Family and the SAR efforts.
* Dee and Charles I think we’ve heard enough and linked enough to your new website. I was hoping the discussion would continue here rather than move over there, but this is not my decision or yours. Discussions can happen at many places though that will make discussion of the OSSA report difficult.
Adirondacker – thanks, excellent comment above!
629/Adirondacker: Trumpets and fanfare, stomping feet, loud and persistent applause. 😀 I was actually trying to convey something like that, but you did it much better and nicer.
I need to answer glenn and then I’ll get out of here. Copyrighting something doesn’t mean that you intend to make money. In my case, the thought is absurd. If anyone winds up wanting to give me an interview, I will spend money for the recording gear and speech-to-text software to produce the transcripts. Last time I looked, those things would cost about $500, which for me is an utterly trivial expense that I wouldn’t bother trying to recoup.
Putting a copyright on something is the way for someone to say, “This is mine.” You can’t copyright an idea, but you can copyright the specific expression of it. If someone grants an interview, I think it’s only fair that the two parties to the interview each have ownership of it. If I make a transcript, then the transcript is mine.
Copyright law includes the fair use doctrine, which allows others to briefly quote copyrighted material with attribution. Therefore, someone can quote material from my narrative as long as they include an attribution. The same would go for transcripts and recordings of interviews.
In short, there’s no money in this for me and there never will be. Money plays absolutely no role in my efforts. I don’t know what else I can write that will convince you, so I will make it my last word on the issue.
631: What’s this ?!? The ref is running onto the field gesturing wildly & furiosly blowing on his whistle…flags are flying everywhere !! He’s throwing Fitzwater out of the game!!! Unsportmanlike conduct fouls for Paul and Glenn and he sends them to the showers to cool off!! He’s talking with the coaches on the field…it looks like they are awarding the most valuable player award Adirondacker even though the games not over ?!? Wow!!
😀 Attention 😀
In my opinion rather than referring to comments by number it’s better to refer to them by the name of the commenter and a short RE:note (or cut and paste their note using italics) to say what their post was about. This allows people to read without bouncing around so much.
Begin italics with the letter i inside the greater than > and less than
Addendum: Did anyone notice the shared ownership of the recording? Last night, someone who credibly identified himself as John James talked about being interviewed by CNN. I guarantee you that CNN has retained sole ownership of that interview.
So glenn, if you’re aiming to be the greed police, you’ve got the wrong suspect. O.K., now I’m out of here.
631 – Thank you, Joe. You’re the best. 🙂
JOE – Thank you, YOU deserve the most valuable player award, but you’re the referee so we had to give it to Adirondacker 🙂
******clapping***** for Joe!!! so did maggie get that report today? any word? I may have missed it, Ive been in and out today. mostly out.
Paul thanks for the earlier prod to action – it was getting out of hand again and I think as happened last night we will hear a lot more from those directly involved if we tone down the personal stuff.
When we review the Sheriff’s report it would be nice to find a good balance between questions and answers and the many friendly comments that help new people feel welcome to chime in.
I’m counting on all of us to see if we can reach that balance since I don’t want to edit out comments unless they are abusive or deceptive.
I would repeat to anybody, especially those actively involved in the Kim Story, that it’s great to hear from you here. Please feel free to correct any items you think are misreported or not reported in the news accounts or elsewhere.
Does that mean the WWF of blogging is over??
Tara – thanks for the applause, but I’m shy and can’t handle it 😳
I heard that the Portland PB report (about the early missing persons case actions) went out of the Police office yesterday so Maggie should have it today. We need to give her enough time to scan it so probably tomorrow?
RRR RE: WWF of blogging. That’s the problem – the arguments get everybody so excited so NOW what are we gonna do?
643- Very true very true but we use to have fun before without all the WWF stuff
This may have been posted above already, but it’s the Oregonian /OregonLive(Oregon’s most read newspaper by far and the newspaper’s website) writing that Carson Helicopters does not agree with Spencer Kim that media choppers interfered with search choppers. (you may need to scroll down as the Oregonian does not appear to archive articles until later if at all).
http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/116831134559880.xml?oregonian?lcg&coll=7
I read that Joe. But it didn’t do much for me. It seemed to then cancel out the argument that Carson helicopters interfered with the National Guard.
….so I am left speechless by it, and still wondering.
OK, back from my east coast dinnertime.
Joe, I meant to reply to your earlier explanation as to your childhood in Plattsburgh, and then totally forgot to. That base was sumptin, wasn’t it? If you ever want to share some of your experiences camping and hiking the ADKs, shoot me an email. Would love to hear about your good spots. Am I correct in assuming your area of southwest Oregon is similar to the Adirondacks?
I apologize for getting off topic. Back on….it will be interesting to read the report when Maggie does post it. Thanks Maggie for your efforts!
Wonder! Wonder! Wonder….. 🙂
642/RRR – Yo Seahawks fan, I thought you would like my 635 version better than WWF ? 🙂
646/Mapper – But it still leaves open the question if they were searching in the wrong place…an I am not sure if it nullifies BH’s speculation that they got in the way of official efforts.
Anyody haveing issues on here??? Or is it just me…I am reloading very VERY slowly….and even slower when I want to post……It could just be me…
649- Yes I like it alot!!!
No issues here R3 (with my computer anyway:)
Paul, yeah, I know it doesn’t nullify it. But from my presepective, it does because I know about as much as either claim. If that makes sense…I am not qualfied in the area of airspace – to make a good assesment there! Need more info.
Just know enough to be dangerous… 🙂
Re; 646
I agree Mapper, it makes that issue very confusing.
Re: 635
Aw….. gee whiz Paul, thank you. Wish I could make one of those red faced smiley guys here!
Actually, I’m still smarting over the Buckeyes – Florida Gator romp….errr, I mean game last night. Hubby went to Ohio State, and I wanted bragging rights over a nephew who went to Gainesville. Oh well!
Ok so I guess I just needed to tell people my computer was doing strange things because now it has stopped/……
Hey, jocosar told me to get on here and talk to mapper. I’ve never heard of this site until today…people like to say a lot of things, that’s for sure. 🙂
Hey mapper, what’s up?
654/A: I’m a lifelong Oregonian, but both my folks moved here from Ohio long before I was a gleam in their eyes, so I was disappointed too. Here I thought you were a guy with your handle, shows you how deceiving perceptions can be. Men are in the definite minority on this site, I wonder if that says anything from a sociological standpoint ?
The little blushing guy 😳 is colon, the word oops, then colon…
see: http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies fir more fun.
656- Hey rocket!!!!
hi rocket
let me guess….gis guy? 🙂
I dont know what she meant about talking to me, but nice to “meet” you.
I’ll be checking in and out tonight…working late…deadlines…. 🙂
Hey RRR78. Wow, you guys are fast. I take it this thing is slightly addictive, eh?
hahaha, slightly
I really dont know what I am doing here at this point.
660- Addicted is not even close to the right word…JoCo just called me and said you were here 🙂
I just want to stir stuff up a bit. That’s where all the fun is had 😉
Ok so I guess I just needed to tell people my computer was doing strange things because now it has stopped/……
Guys in the Crown Vic’s?????
USC was robbed!
We could use a change of topic.
Sorry! I think I hit the wrong button to turn the italics off…..
Laurie…I wasn’t aiming my comment at you! I knew what you meant, for what its worth, italics and all.
Actually, I really do need to break away for awhile! Glad your hear Rocket! Later all!
I actually had to earn my keep at work today, so I’m just now catching up…
538/540 – Frances, glad to hear you enjoy the Dutch Bros. If you ever get a chance to drive through one, the people are just as much of a treat as the coffee and very “small town”-ish since that’s where it all started.
555 – Welcome MidATLer, and thank you for complimenting Joe and us where you said “the people here seem to know the ins and outs better than most.” We sure do read a lot in this group 🙂 Perhaps this is the link you were trying to find?
http://www.katu.com/news/4851436.html
In that article, it says “Driving higher through the snow in their all-wheel-drive silver Saab station wagon, the Kims came to a fork. A fourth yellow sign warned of snowdrifts blocking the way if they took the left fork to Gold Beach. They took the right fork, not knowing where it went.”
Aside from differing opinion, I did find it irritating that the “narrative” site does not often make it easy to find articles being referenced.
Paul, you sure have taken quite a beating here today! Good thing you have a good sense of humor and take things in stride 🙂 I’m still at 98.6%, for the record.
563 – About JoCoSAR taking things too personally, if my name was one of two constantly mentioned in the media and trashed almost mercilessly early on even in this very forum (before we heard even a murmur from under the gag), I would have a very hard time not taking it personally. Interesting.
606 – “Sheeple” by Glenn being added to the list with Madeleine’s “herding cats” and “Joe, Duck!” and my own lack of sleep rambling vowing to “eat my sock” – top 4 phrases heard here in my opinion.
631 – Speaking of “herding cats,” thank you “Joe, Duck!” for keeping this place a respectable “establishment.”
Thank you, hopeful Maggie, for your kind words. Happy scanning, that is good news. I’m trying to stay positive, but I concede it’s been a bit challenging today. Adirondacker did at admirable job of putting it all back in its proper perspective.
One more comment before I scan. JoCoSAR, thank you very much for sharing your own personal experience in this whole thing. It cannot be easy to be in your shoes right now. I will be glad when all gags are off and anyone can be at liberty to say what they want – right, wrong, or otherwise, everyone needs a chance to speak. I can’t imagine being under both the pressure of a very negative light while also under a gag order. As others have said, I do hope that you and John James are able to talk and sort some things out because it’s quite obvious to me that both of you care very deeply about what happened and are much closer to it all than most of us. I wish you some peace.
And now I’m going to scan (and sneak a few peeks for new comments).
I couldn’t refresh the page for about two hours, and thought Joe had put us all on timeout. Glad we’re moving again.
Joe, as mapper posted earlier, the post from Lee about Charles probably came from here: http://www.pakin.org/complaint
And if not there, somewhere very similar.
If you still have the original text, pick an improbable phrase and google it. You will find people who have posted other randomly generated diatribes, and they will contain the same phrase.
671 – Maggie, as an aside: Trent Lott once published a book called “Herding Cats, A Life In Politics”. I’m sure he lived to regret the title. As the book was discussed on talk radio, many listeners thought it was called “Hurting Cats”, and were not amused.
Mapper, you have mail!
To person posting as “Lee H. Fitzwater” – as an Adelphia Cable subscriber you are violating their terms of service by posting abusive comments here. Stop or you will be reported to Adelphia.
Wow, this was quite a day. Just a thought: Maybe it would be a good idea to start a new page for the new report, just to start afresh and hopefully without some of the bagggage from today (since there are already quite a lot of posts anyway.)
Joy, a new page is a good idea. And it will put some distance between the report Maggie is scanning and the goings on from earlier. But it’s up to Joe, of course.:)
So what did I miss?
I heard my name, so I had to look up from scanning. Hi Madeleine and Joy 🙂 Not quite halfway through scanning, but I’m getting into my groove now.
To all of you on this site.
I want to let everyone know that Phil who posts here has facilitated a meeting between Sara R and me (or is it myself). I appreciate his doing this as he knows both of us, albeit Sara much better than he knows me.
I am looking forward to sitting over a cup of coffee with her and phil and maybe clearing some issues and beginning to move on.
I want to say that when the OSSA report comes out there will be a much clearer picture of my brothers and my interaction with both Sara R and the deputy “JASON” when we ran across them on BC23 on Dec.1.
I also want to stress to you that I was contacted by the Detectives from Jack CO. SO for the interview and that I didn’t contact them. They were acting on orders from OSSA and their investigation.
There are things in the interview that we chose to not speak about previously as we felt the story just needed to be “Put to bed”.
I just wanted to prepare you as there will be people on here that will claim that I have changed my story. The truth is I just chose not to share it until basically required to by LE.
There are comments here that I found after my visit last night that I take a different position on in reference to my interaction with the deputies on Dec.1.
I won’t address those now as I really want to talk to Sara in person and don’t want to cause her to cancel the meeting.
I think she and I both need to meet to heal.
I have not read every thread on here as honestly I work way too much to spend the time.
I will try to get back here after the report comes out to maybe address any questions then.
I do also want to provide more info to a couple of the bloggers that said they might want to help in providing some signage on Bear camp.
Best wishes to you all,
John
683 – John James, I do hope that you and Sara both find some peace. If you are able to sit down together and talk things over, that’s even better. Thank you again for what you did and what you tried to do.
KimTragedy.info
I read through the above site this evening. This James Kim story obviously dominates my thinking.
Yes,there is considerable criticism in the summaries ther while it triggers some some personal pain reaction, overall it seems to me to be a sincere effort with the authors taking care to be balanced and reasonable and careful when they did offer criticism.
On another note, I’m back at work where some of media has found they could page me though the hospital operator looking for contact numbers for Kati and Spencer Kim which I do not give out.
On a third note, I note that the dialog on this blog appears to undergone considerable degredation over the past 48 hours.
Kati and the girls are doing well as of my report today. She is just overwhelmed with issues, emails, and child care.
Kati’s Dad,
This may not be the time or place but I don’t have any other way to offer this to you.
If at a later date You or your family would like to go to the site where James was found I would offer my services to you.
It is really only accessible by boat trip or a moderate hike from my Lodge.
I of course don’t know the exact spot but have a very good perception of the approximate location (within a couple of hundred yards)
This offer is good for life so feel free to contact me if the girls feel the need to maybe place a marker or something even years from now.
I would be honored to help.
John
Oh and for the potential cynics that will probably offer rude comments such as they did last night, my offer to Kati’s Dad is free of charge and strictly no strings attached.
John
Maggie,
Thanks for the support, I beleive we will come to common ground. And both learn from the experience
Two brief comments:
Kati’s Dad (#685), thank you. We have taken great care to be even-handed. I realize that some of what I wrote was painful for you to read, but I assure you there is no malicious intent. I expect that your daughter will pick a different venue to be interviewed, most likely one of the big national media outlets.
But if she wants to tell her story to a fair, thorough, professional and respectful interviewer who won’t chop it up for commercials or make her into a caricature to be used as entertainment, she can’t do any better than us. I’m not going to give you my financial statement here, but I have less than zero interest in royalties or income from her story. I have plenty of money already.
Maggie (#671), the article you cited in that post is the same Associated Press article that I have referenced. It is linked in the “Media and Official Reports Archive” on our site.
686 John, thank you so much. I very much appreciate the offer. Even before I read it a moment ago, I wanted to tell you how much I have appreciated your input on this blog. You are obviously a man of very kind concern.
685/Kati’s Dad: Thank you for visiting, I feel badly about your 3rd point. We are all striving to be a positive force in regards to your families tragedy and I regret that we have strayed from that focus. We will do better.
686/687: John – You are generous and kind with your offer. I did not voice it last night, but I had no misgivings about your services for CNN nor that you charged a fee, regardless of its ultimate disposition. I am glad you will be getting together with Sara, it is time to heal.
Kati’s Dad,
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, Do take me up on this when you all have healed.
I would be honored to do it for your family and absolutely would feel fortunate to meet such an amazing woman as your daughter.
You did something right when you raised her. I am sure the girls will turn out to be just as stong and resourceful as Kati
John
Paul,
It wasn’t you. The individual knows who they were and that is enough. It was just a pre-emptive strike if you will.
John
685 – Kati’s Dad, I know I always say that I appreciate when you can stop in, and I always just do! I’m glad that the girls are doing well – from what you’ve said, it sounds like they all kind of pull each other through some of the tougher spots. I agree that there’s been plenty of diversion, and look forward to things reverting more back to “normal” here. Anyway, each of you remain in my thoughts.
686/687 – John, I ditto exactly what Paul just said, verbatim (he types the words out of my mind once in awhile on here).
More scanning for me…
I would love see this story written as a documentary book. I think that will ultimately be the case. If so, it sure seems to me that John James’ character portrayal and role will be an interesting part of the story.
I appreciate the fact that he even told us how much CNN paid him, and I think it would have been, well downright stupid, for him not have accepted compensation.
Thanks everyone,
I promised to leave right after my earlier post and I am sure you are sick of me and my typos and misspellings. I actually am somewhat literate (for a hick) but this computer posting barrage tends to make me lazy.
Hasta Luego.
John
696 – You are welcome back anytime, John.
Please don’t feed the trolls.
A troll is easy to spot; they’re the posters who don’t argue logic, or facts, or even emotions; they only argue to push your buttons. There is no way to advance these arguments, because trolls don’t want to argue. They want to eat signal-to-noise ratio.
This is an amazing collective achievement. It really is making a difference. A small one, so far, but managing information is going to be a bigger and bigger challenge in SAR as in all facets of our life. Please help.
Please don’t feed the trolls.
Whoops, forgot the payload — “how do you starve a troll?” “Ignore it.”
Thanks for the PSA tharwood! This place is obviously pretty special, as evidenced by the multiple critical faces that have shown up to post. It isn’t going to be replicated anywhere else, despite some efforts.
Kati’s Dad: I really hope your hint of a book turns out to be true. Kati seems to enjoy writing and is a great writer (I love her irony), and it can be so therapeutic. She also obviously has a strong sense of herself and could make sure that the end product does the story justice and isn’t something sensationalized.
When is Bear Camp (FS 23) passable in the spring? I glanced that its entry in the Oregon Byways guide book. That said something about river runners plowing it in May? That book also highlights FS 2308 alternative as the way from the summit down to Agness. Is that a bit more scenic (though gravel)?
What are the roads like on the north side of the Rogue? Apparently Stivers got stuck trying to cross the mountains there in March, having missed the turn off at Galice. It appears from the maps that there is at least one paved through road on that side, plus a popular one that runs down to a lodge and campground on the Rogue River.
Do other forest/blm roads in the area have similar snow warning signs? Or is Bear Camp unique with its 4 sign count down?
Speaking of the north side of the Rogue, does anyone know where the Glendale cell phone tower is located. I’m guessing it is on some hill top with a good view along I5. Via Google Earth I couldn’t find any hills in this area that had much of a straight line view into the Bear Camp area (whether the summit, the infamous 23/BLM junction, or something lower in the BLM maze).
paulj
701-Paulj // RRR would be your best source on re-opening on the road as she runs shuttles over it regularly…probably for all the rest of your queries as well…not sure if she is on tonight with us.
OK, Portland Police Bureau Missing Persons Report is scanned and posted. Many thanks to Joe Duck and Mike Weinstein for getting it into my hands. To see it, click on the link in my name below. I’ve moved it to the top of the page. It’s in .pdf format and should be fairly searchable, but I’ve only tested that function a little so that I could get it posted. I don’t do a lot of this stuff, so please let me know if I screwed up somehow 😉
703 – No disrespect intended, I meant to say Detective Mike Weinstein. Got a little excited.
😀 Attention 😀
Now that I’ve had a chance to review the Portland Police Bureau’s Missing Persons report I (and I’m sure Maggie) have some concerns about how personal some of the information is in that report.
However this is a public report and was released to news media some time ago. I encourage everybody to thoroughly respect the privacy of all the parties mentioned in this report.
This respect for privacy is fundamentally important as we all move along with an analysis of the Kim Story.
*** Joe and Maggie – please pull the link to the report – Joe, I’m emailing you asap – there’s something wrong with the scanning.
Sorry everyone – I’ll explain in a minute.
707 – I’ve unlinked it, I think…
I just signed on only minutes prior to your posting it, and happened to link to it – huge parts are missing which shouldn’t be (I’ve seen the redacted version). I’ve just emailed Joe so we can get in touch to figure this out and get it up again for all to access, if desired.
Again, sorry for confusion, but I know you all want complete and accurate facts to review.
And BTW, Maggie – didn’t mean for a second to suggest your scanning abilities were challenged – just a tech glitch I’m sure. Very kind of your to do as quickly as you did for all.
710 – Thank you, Det. Mike. All I could think was that I had done something wrong and would be arrested 🙂 Whew, had me there for a minute.
Maggie – You have the right to remain a very kind and thoughtful person…anything you say can and will be used against you to show others your thoughtfulness…
😉 I feel better now, thanks. (heart rate returning to normal)
Maggie – can I contact you? Is your email on your website a good way?
Yes, that’s fine, and yes it’s a good email.
Ok, just for everyone who already downloaded the PPB report – please be advised that the omissions in the body of the text (besides 2 phone #s which were redacted for privacy reasons) were unintentional (and yes, I usually write in complete sentences, thank you very much).
Maggie – emailing now.
Joe – I’m having issues with that email account. Can you please give Det Mike the one that I use to sign onto your site?
Maggie – Tried to email you at your website address (direct linked to it) and it kicked the email back to me…? Said something about the SMTP server rejected the address?
Yes, something going wrong there. Can you please check with Joe for my “normal” email address he has?
A day late and a dollar short I enter into the discussion. There are plenty of posts to read up on, way too many to even begin thinking about reading all of them. I’ve skimmed most, and done word searches for the topics and authors that interested me. During that time, a few thoughts have come to mind and I’d like to share them.
I’d like to pose this to the group: How many times have you had “inside knowledge” of a local news event? If you live in an area long enough, it happens sooner or later. The kids’ soccer league is having a fund raiser; paving is being slowed for this or that reason; local businesses are complaining about an issue. How many times did you detect an error, or at least a “ya know, that’s not entirely true” passage or statement? If you’re like me, it’s 100% every time! Yes, the media, try as they may, gets stuff wrong. A lot. So much that I’ve never, ever been really satisfied with the work they do.
Now, translate that to a national media event. Reporters are coming in from all over the country. This is not a big deal for them since they do it all the time, but it’s a big deal to us. They come here with their agendas, deadlines, editors breathing down their necks, etc. They’re just people doing a job, right? They gather information, turn a story or three out, linger for a few days and jet off to the next story. Other media outlets begin reporting on the previously reported items, so poor reporting gets magnified. Meanwhile we’re left with the ashes of what they’ve left us in their collective work as being 100% absolute fact. I fall for it (usually) when I read an article about something I know nothing about. I take it as gospel, and pretty much believe everything I read. Even though I know better than this, I still take the bait hook-line-sinker. Why? While I know all news must be taken in with a grain of salt, I don’t know what parts to believe and what parts to throw out, so I generally take in the entire story with a minor dose of skepticism, instead of picking out the big fat messes and throwing them to the side.
Next, consider the whole reason news outlets exist. It’s to make money. You can’t tell me that CNN and Fox are in it just because they feel a deep seeded moral responsibility to make sure we all know what’s going on. They are there to sell advertising and MAKE MONEY, and God forbid if they let the facts get in the way of generating revenue.
Catch me on an off day and I’ll let you know how I really feel about the media. 🙂
I said all of that to talk about my next point. So many people have played armchair quarterback with this incident it makes me sick. Things like, “1. Why wasn’t done sooner/better/for longer?; 2. Why didn’t this person talk to that person?; 3. Why does Party A not talk to Party B?; 4. Why is everyone in charge such a loser when I obviously have all the answers?” Well, I’ll tell you why. 1. was done with an excellence never before seen; 2. Everyone had an opportunity to talk to everyone; 3. Party A talked to Party B so much they’re now friends and take vacations to the Pocono’s in the summer; 4. You’re not in charge because you can’t do a better job.
Bottom line in this (unplanned) lengthy rant? A person can’t honestly expect to be able to reasonably and intelligently talk about a subject with little to no first hand knowledge of something. I don’t care if you “read it in the paper,” or “saw it on Fox,” those people are getting it second hand at best. At best. So, while it’s fine to talk about a subject and rehash what would have, could have, should have been done, think twice before you skewer a person or an organization. Why? Someone’s reading your stuff and taking it as gospel…
Out.
Thank you Rocket.
Nancy
Det Mike, I haven’t seen it come through. You could use this “disposable” email address if you’d like:
phoebe1dawn-duckblogfolks@yahoo.com
Sorry, I’d checked out right before the excitement! Maggie I sent your email to Det. Mike.
Maggie – Hopefully that worked, I used the 2nd email Joe sent – THanks Joe.
Yep, got it and replied.
Sorry for delays Maggie and Mike. Soon we’ll all be staying awake as late as Glenn 😉
Maggie of course wait until tomorrow if you need to to correct the items Mike was talking about.
I’m up 🙂
PPB report — looks ok to me
Mike W. Maggie,
I’ve read the report already.
Will you be letting us know what to look for that has been added, if there are additions? Just so we don’t have to read it all through again. Not that it doens’t read like a great novel!
Mike, I see now why you only come on late at night.
Whst a wild schedule. Were you able to concentrate only on the Kim case during that time or did you also have other responsibilities?
Maggie, thank you for all your work on this and the other info on your web site which I went through today finally.
Maggie – sorry i’m back now. u have mail.
Maggie…. still here? pls check your email
Not to harp the point:
Just clicked the link to Charles/Dee’s site. I have no intention on reading it as I understand the mind set of those who created it, but Idid want to get a look at the site.
“Definitive Account…”
They have not interviewed anyone, they have not traced the route in person, they have not interviewed Katie,
Even if they had done so, all the reports aren’t in.
Talk about unethical & mis-leading journalism….
Oh pllllleeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeee ….
Ok, for anyone still awake… we will be working on getting a *complete* version of the PPB report out, hopefully tomorrow. For now, just suffice it to say that the version that was apparently sent out was most likely in error and is missing key parts that should have been there.
Orygungirl – Always multiple responsibilities, but for this case, luckily, anything that was not an emergency was able to be put temporarily on hold or was handled by other detectives.
Thanks all for your understanding and patience. Have a good night.
Rocket,
I just woke up at 4am after falling asleep at 8:00!
Anyway, I just want to say, from my point of view, many of my posts from the start (as I never even dreamed this blog would get so big, with people involved, and even with the ability to hurt anyone, except maybe Kati and her family) a lot of my posts in regard to SAR have been hypothetical and refer to my experience with government. I have *really* tried to tiptoe around and many of my posts are riddled with disclaimers saying….I wasn’t there…I dont know that this happened…etc.
I have tried to be largely supportive of just about everyone involved (with the exception of people like Charles Wilson, who were not involved but seem to think they have a stake).
I simply am not the kind of person that cares to place blame on people or agencies that are obviously sincere and I dont have time to place blame on those that are not.
I have addressed, things, that at times I have dealt with working in government and communication in that government and have offered my opinion on how things could work better (from my presepective). If that came off as very specific to JoCo it wasn’t meant to. I have a much bigger picture persepective and at many times have not enjoyed the focus on that particular county. Of coure, I do have my own frustrations working in my particular field, for many different organizations both private and public.
I have said a few things in the heat of the moment here, that unfortunatley I cannot edit. But please do understand, much of that was either when emotions were running high, or when we (a core group of us) felt somewhat a lone and I had only a vauge feeling that kati or her family would be reading.
Certianly though, the timeline we have seen did raise more questions than answers and I am looking forward to reading more and hearing more from the people involved. Not because I want to point out deficiences, because I want to hear your voices. I’m about as sympathetic as they come (a bit of weakness at times) and am not here to play armchair quarterback.
Respectfully…
Mapper, you have mail.
Mapper, you do good!!!
>A day late and a dollar short I enter into the discussion.
Welcome aboard!
“…Yes, the media, try as they may, gets stuff wrong. A lot. So much that I’ve never, ever been really satisfied with the work they do. …” Good for you. It is never proper for a citizen to be entirely satisfied with his government or his local paper.
“…They come here with their agendas, deadlines, editors breathing down their necks, etc. …”
They also come in with skills, fresh energy and viewpoints and dedication.
“…so poor reporting gets magnified.”
Alas, its not just the good reporting that gets magnified.
“I take it as gospel, and pretty much believe everything I read.”
I have an idea you consume more grains of salt than you imply!
“Next, consider the whole reason news outlets exist. It’s to make money.”
Yes. And if you eat in a restaurant it probably is there to make money too!
“They are there to sell advertising and MAKE MONEY, and God forbid if they let the facts get in the way of generating revenue.”
Well tabloids carrying stories about space aliens might fall into that category, but not all media outlets! Some really do want the facts to get out.
“…Catch me on an off day and I’ll let you know how I really feel about the media.”
I would look forward to that!
“…So many people have played armchair quarterback with this incident it makes me sick.”
Well, that is the proper role. Such ‘armchair reviews’ are proper concerns or else the newspaper might as well only publish the comics page and nothing else.
“…Why is everyone in charge such a loser when I obviously have all the answers?”
No, its Fools Gold who has all the answers!!
“…A person can’t honestly expect to be able to reasonably and intelligently talk about a subject with little to no first hand knowledge of something.” Oh, I don’t know. People talk about horse races without ever having been a horse and I don’t know any reporter who feels he can’t write about suicide unless he has committed it first!
“…those people are getting it second hand at best.”
Yes the reporters get it second hand and we are lucky if we get it third hand. I sometimes don’t like that but then again I’d rather get a SAR story remotely than be out there sloshing through deep snow myself. I’d rather read a restaurant review than watch the chef in the kitchen myself.
“…So, while it’s fine to talk about a subject and rehash what would have, could have, should have been done, think twice before you skewer a person or an organization.”
I don’t think either the media or the posters here are trying to skewer a person or organization. We discuss, question, amplify certain points, decide to downgrade certain other points, learn and make conclusions that are supported by data rather than plucked out of thin air. That is a good process. Not a perfect one, but a good one.
Rocket
Well I think the media gets the story right about 99% of the time- I am talking legitimate media like LA Times, NY Times, Wash Post, Chicago Trib and the Oregonian and that they value public service highly. (BTW if one percent of each story is wrong that is way too much and I don’t think even that happens– I think one out of 100 stories has some fatal flaw) Some confuse editorials with news, because editorials by a fundamental law of nature get their positions right about 50% of the time in the readers’ mind. Especially if it is a political type opinion- immigration, health care, Iraq, tax reform.
As to the Kim story I have not read the LA Times or SF coverage, but I have heard only one item in the Oregonian that seems to be questionable and that is the role of Sara R., whether she was speaking or acting like she was in charge of the SAR, which we now believe is not the case. But the Oregonian got this info from a first hand source– so too bad, that is how it works. Do you have a solution? Her leadership role was even recorded in the Governor’s Report.
She can write the Oregonian for a correction, she can ask some papers ombudsmen to review it, she can sue (expensive), or we could wait months and months until more info from the TF is published and the story is absolutely perfect and no one cares about the Oregonian. She can tell your story to another competing media outlet. She can correct the story here as she has tried and she hopes for another report to clarify her role. Meanwhile, she is in an uncomfortable waiting position.
You make a good point on local knowledge– but only to a point. Frankly local knowledge is often based on gossip and probably wrong about 50% of the time.
As to armchair QBing, well there is only one QB on the field at a time, so that would be pretty boring if none of us could say… Gee, why the heck did that happen? So I will be looking at your comments over the next few weeks and seeing if you can live up to the standards you have set forth. (Just kidding.)
In your next to the last paragraph I disagree with every point, but one. You complain that this blog asks too many times, such as:
“1. Why wasn’t [X] done sooner/better/for longer?; 2. Why didn’t this person talk to that person?; 3. Why does Party A not talk to Party B?; 4. Why is everyone in charge such a loser when I obviously have all the answers?” Well, I’ll tell you why. 1. was done with an excellence never before seen; 2. Everyone had an opportunity to talk to everyone; 3. Party A talked to Party B so much they’re now friends and take vacations to the Pocono’s in the summer; 4. You’re not in charge because you can’t do a better job.” End Quote
Your points 1,2,3 with answers are wrong. You think this SAR on the Kims was done, ” with such an excellence never before seen.”? Really? Have you followed the Mt. Hood search at about the same time?
Point 4 would be a sensible criticism, but I doubt anyone here has said so, in those words. Tell me where. Can you be more specific?
As to your answer on point 4 (no one here can do a better job). Well it is a hypothetical and a broad generalization and I am not going to take the egotistical plunge. It is easy to answer “none of us could do a better job”, because we don’t know the names of streets, roads or highways- but many of us here can look at a leadership situation or technical area and recognize dysfunction from a thousand miles away. In fact that is what the Task Force will be asked to look into.
From the partial story I have heard to date, I think this SAR outfit did a below average job at the leadership level. I think it is a given that SARs work long hours, have empathy for victims and families, and feel personally involved with their cases. That is “average”, that is expected. and given a lost family with two lost children– any SAR would rise to the occasion in compassion and dedication. Unfortunately, technical competence does not rise to a similar level.
From what I have read to date, I think this effort was below average in many respects. (We have discussed many areas– utilization of search aircraft, communication, recognition of the usefulness of the cell phone map, application of local knowledge.)
and that’s OK, here is an example: A medical school graduates 100 doctors, someone finished last in the class, but is still a doctor and licensed and able to treat the public. No problem. But that doctor is not the average med school grad. But he or she is competent.
I believe JoCo was competent, but below “average”. and I compare average with the highly competent above average job done by SAR at Mt. Hood. Also, I believe JoCo SAR is average on their normal SAR cases– which last one day and have a simple resolution.
This was the big game and they were far below average and I predict the Governor will take steps to raise the bar for all, with better resources and training.
So thanks for your comments.
mapper, you have mail.
Rocket – The only solution to the media problem is to lift the gag order. We’re all waiting for that.
“…I believe JoCo was competent, but below “average”.
average on their normal SAR cases– which last one day and have a simple resolution. This was the big game and they were far below average …”
Probably this is a fair estimate. Unfortunately the people who have to deal with the ordinary run-of-the-mill cases are the ones who also have to deal with the extraordinary and highly demanding cases…and they have to do it with the training and resources available to them. Their budgets are often based on the ordinary although they are from time to time called upon to do the extraordinary. Staffing levels, training, equipment, procedures … it always varies. In Josephine County the various ‘supply and demand’ factors provide Josephine County with what is, on average, a fairly competent system. But as with anything else, the edge has to be kept well-honed and in this search it seems things were a bit “off” at times.
deleted at bamadad’s request
Fool’s Gold– I agree with you at 740 plus I base this on just our info to date.
The thing I don’t know is how compressed the search period was for JoCo. At first I thought JoCo had all day Friday to search and I really thought they were slow, but it appears kickoff wasn’t until sometime Saturday. So on Friday they just went out to the “usual places”, which was good.
On my 740 on the Hotel Lucia, the last two entries should be normal type not italics. Looks like my italics didn’t take.
737 – Bamadad sorry but the LA Times, NY Times do not get 99% of their stories right. Those two specific outlets are executing a specific agenda and it has nothing to do with the truth or getting the story right.
Just getting around to reading the Governor’s timeline.
GR p18 – Location the family car was found N42 38.202’ W123 47.514’
This location is neither the originally reported location of the car, nor the true location of the car. This location does appear to be on the road that James apparently walked, and is near where he was reported to enter the drainage (at least for some values of “near”).
In this day and age of GPS:
– I still don’t understand how the car location was misreported to the public. Okay, if they were just relaying by landmark (e.g. hey jimmy, the car was at the intersection of 34-8-36 and a side road on the north edge of the BLM area near the river) and not GPS coordinates, then maybe I suppose I could understand.
– I don’t understand how actual coordinates given by/to the Oregon Army National Guard Aviation could be incorrect.
Yeah, I know, mistakes are made. And I know this little detail wouldn’t change anything.
But what can we learn from these issues? I’m not sure. I think I’d have to know how these two locations got misreported/misrecorded to know what to fix. But I think in general it hints at possible improvements to use (and education?) of GPS and GIS/mapping. Man it seems silly for me (3000 miles away) to be suggesting the people in this process needed to be better educated in GPS and GIS.
Bamadad, re: cooperation from the hotel.
Spencer Kim touched on the privacy issues in his Washington Post letter, and called for legislation. Det. Mike has provided a lot of great information about what LE and other searchers can request and get with and without a court order.
I have e-mailed a fairly well-known (at least on the internet) privacy advocate to ask him to comment on how laws could be crafted to help in situations like this, while at the same time not outraging Americans who feel their privacy is being stripped enough already.
I’m not sure there is an easy answer.
Fool’s Gold
You know on their average searches, the day long ones that are routine…. JoCo may even be well above average in Oregon, heck, they may be the best in the State. That is unknown to me.
But a ramp up like this Kim search- with multi-jurisdictions, intense media coverage, the presence of an interested, influential parent (Mr. Spencer Kim) with his private Air Force, a lost person (James) who for some “good” reason started to self-rescue on the day JoCo kicked off, would challenge any County in Oregon.
So I can’t make this personal by pointing to a specific leader, because this appears to be a systemic breakdown (may be too strong a word)– but I think it is fixable.
Good morning all.
Well, it looks like there was a bit of hectic excitement here as the report went up and then quickly back down, last night. Hard to wait to view it, but, understandably the best call by Det. Mike, Maggie, and Joe, as it should be seen in its entirety. Thanks to all three of you, btw.
Re: 711 & 712 – You two are funny. Maggie I’m sure your heart was racing there for awhile.
Re: 720 – Rocket, welcome to the blog. I pretty much agree with your assessment on both the print and television media. While some venues have a superior reputation for accurate and balanced reporting, others do not.
It can be overwhelming to play “catchup” on this blog when faced with over 6000 posts to read. And in truth, some of those posts aren’t worth the effort that it took to write them. Many are just friendly banter between board participants. But, many of the posts here (including the ones you claim attempt “armchair quarterbacking”) are submitted with the utmost respect toward the participants involved in the SAR of the Kim family. Not all, but many. Most of the people here are good people. Yes, we haven’t visited your area or the wilderness in question. True, we don’t know the character of the people involved or the pressures or obstacles they faced trying to do their jobs. And, we are still unsure of the chain of command. That does not mean we shouldn’t try to understand or ask questions about it. I think the majority of the people here are seeking ways to improve SAR in a positive way. They’re not here to skewer any one person or organization. In the end there may be suggestions on how to make SAR’s job an easier one. As long as it is done in good taste and with the best intentions, I don’t think that is a problem.
Come back to post soon. I look forward to your ideas.
Just a few thoughts before I leave for the day.
New people, welcome, its really so interesting to hear from people involved, and the many different voices not involved, with interesting things to say (and I am keeping a running tally of the new and funny terms I am picking up here!).
Just a thought. Some of us have been posting here for over a month. It is now mid-Januray. This event happened around Thanksgiving.
Before being too judgemental, I know there are a ton of posts here, it would be beneficial to read the entire thing before jumping to conclusions about the attitudes here, especially of specific people.
Jumping to conclusions here, is just as wrong as us jumping to conclusions about reports or not critically reading what we find in the media.
On that note. It is equally unfair to say 99% of newspapers are not comitted to getting things right. I happen to know some reporters who care, quite a bit about doing things right, and would quit their jobs over ethical abuses in the workplace…I know one right now, who is in a bit of a war over the actions of another reporter and how it reflects on her, as she works at the same paper.
Reducing all reporters to slime is the same as reducing all government workers to the same….
try to keep an open mind and heart.
Thanks!
Adirondacker (I cant spell that, so I may eventually shorten it if you dont mind!)
I think we wrote that at the same time.
Maggie, we need to add “assitant” to the list of best terms, and best new terms.
Good Morning!
RodneyG-
You have got that right, maybe you asked your friend about the Hotel Lucia situation in particular. They were just so inflexible and strict. Now if this were a low class, rendezvous type hotel– then maybe they could be strict as hell as a service to their clients, but the upscale, high class Hotel Lucia is not that type of hotel at all.
Lurking
OK, I will never be able to convey what I mean about accuracy. I guess when I read these papers, I first look at the topic area, if it is local news or on a non-political topic then the story will be accurate almost always. They may have omitted a whole line of inquiry, but what is there is normally accurate.
If it is on a controversial topic, I have to separate out the context– I know the general bias of the various news sources- but I really don’t think it gets in the way as much as most think it does. Reporters have a background as well, which I think has been found to be generally Democratic and liberal. But I don’t think that gets into the who shot John fact reporting.
Except when the NY Times gets duped by its own reporter like Jason Blair.
So you are correct.
maggie, thanks for all you did last night, including the laughs… you are so funny!
someone needs to email me, Im feeling left out 🙂
Rocket, did I read/infer correctly that you are JoCoGIS? If so, do you have any comments or info about the misreported car location(s) referred to in my comment #744? Thanks.
Good Morning Tara…
RodneyG
744 Yours– In this day and age of GPS:
– I still don’t understand how the car location was misreported to the public. Okay, if they were just relaying by landmark (e.g. hey jimmy, the car was at the intersection of 34-8-36 and a side road on the north edge of the BLM area near the river) and not GPS coordinates, then maybe I suppose I could understand.
___________
I think JoCoSAR answered this somewhere in this mile long thread. The part I remember is that it didn’t make a difference to the search for James in the drainage and was kind of a “sloppy” relay of info later on.
755- You are right Bamada in the comment that it didn’t effect the search efforts for James…..
Rocket – While I understand your points regarding the media and concur with many of them, consider this: This story touched a huge number of people, who have discussed it among thenselves in restaurants, barber shops, soccer fields, work locations, etc. This group on JD is made up of people who work or have worked for gov’t agencies (including law enforcement, are mapping experts, knowledgeable of the cellular industry, have extensive local knowledge of the issues, and people with other backgrounds who are simply interested in correcting the problems.
In addition, we have the gracious participation of principals from the incident, who have put themselves through reading the misconceptions and critiques. The topic will not simply go away, as it touched too many people who want something good to come from it.
If anyone should be discussing the case to this degree, it is us. We are asking the same questions as everyone else, have had some of the same misconceptions, early on, and I think we’ve discussed the questions and findings to a deeper level than the average person.
While the agencies involved certainly know the issues of this case beter than anyone, it’s important that they hear the questions being raised, too. This not only keeps people accountable, but when agencies operate in a vaccuum, things tend not to change when they should.
I work for an agency that gets flak from all sides, at times, and while it’s frustrating, we still need to know what people are thinking as the media providing the “facts” isn’t going to change soon. We’ve improved some of the ways we operate and many of the ways we communicate as a result. Hopefully the end result here will be more focused than just the general “ain’t it awful” that permeated the beginning of these discussions.
Well, I’m glad that my comments made a bit of a stir. They were written at 1am, so you have to bear with me a bit. A couple of things were taken out of context, which is cool, but it proves my point exactly. As for mapper, none of my comments were directed at you, so no worries! 🙂
744 – I too looked up the GPS coordinates in GR, and found that they were closer to where James apparently left the road, than to either of the reported locations for the car.
My guess is that someone accurately reported his own location, either on the ground or air, but that the person on the other end of the transmission made a mistake in identifying that location. They could, for example, have thought they were speaking to someone who was at the car, where as it really was someone tracking James.
Mistakes like this are understandable.
paulj
Re: 749 – “Adirondacker (I cant spell that, so I may eventually shorten it if you don’t mind!)”
Mapper, you can shorten it to ADK (the local abbreviation for the Adirondacks), or call me Karen, but, gee I hope I don’t get called “assitant”! I’ll strive to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Re: 757 – Very good points, Madeleine.
Hope your husband is feeling better now that he’s home.
720/734/736/737 -etc. – Media Discussion: LOUD APPLAUSE!! – This is the kind of spirited, intelligent, respectful & thought provoking dialogue that brings me to Joe Duck!! You all make very good points, even where I personally disagree. When Kati’s dad said the blog had degraded over the last 2-3 days, I was saddened. This media discussion represents this venue in a far more positive light IMO.
748: Mapper – Agree 200% with all points / I grew up in a media family. I have seen the very worst of media, and the very best. My father was intensely dedicated to the notion that news reporting should be thorough & complete, unbiased & fair,and ethical. I know there are many in news today just like him. I also know there are those who are shameless shills and ruthless vultures. As in any profession, they run the gamut from excellent to horrid.
712-Det Mike/ My favorite light hearted post from yesterday, so good to know you keep a solid sense of humor in light of what must be a challenging profession. Thank you for all your help and participation here.
RRR/ There was a series of questions last night at 701 that I thought you might be able to answer from Paulj.
re: Hotel
“Police” and “Emergencies” are terms with varying meanings. Many cellular carriers have calls wherein people claim to be police officers but refuse to have their depart fax anything to the carrier. Also ’emergency’ is often an ill-defined term.
The hotel had the right to refuse to reveal the information and many guests would probably expect their information to be kept secret. Sure the information might be of some help to the authorities though its not certain to be of any use and its probably obtainable from other sources as well.
A Fax-ed request is not a subpoena and its the hotel’s choice. Emergency is not a term that makes the constitution evaporate! Rather the action was wise or not is not the issue.
I want to say that my passion and caring for this case and this story have everything to do with the loss of the precious life that was James Kim, and the plight that he and Kati, and the two girls went through that led up to that loss. It has nothing to do with “blaming” anyone.
The issues surrounding and the details within the efficiency and adequacy of the search itself do interest me intensely because I feel it will do the most justice to James, to Kati and the girls, and to the public at large, to see what may have been lacking, or could have been done even better, and what could potentially be improved.
It’s about learning, it’s about improving, and it’s not personal.
I am not going to discuss these things for a while until the OSSA Report comes out, because I feel like I have to tippy, tippy, tippy toe, and walk on eggshells, or else people take it the wrong way.
It would be really nice to have honest discussions. I have tried to be respectful, and state my position about not blaming people so many times.
I think an important question is how can we discuss these issues and questions without people taking it personally?
What if everyone were to try to be more objective, and just look at the information, and still be able to talk about cause and effect relationships without people taking it personally?
I would like to suggest that when we discuss the OSSA Report, we take the “blame” card off the table completely. Because blame is not the point, never has been, never should be. The point is learning, so that improvements can be made in the future that hopefully can help increase abilities and capacities to save lives.
(744)
[quote=RodneyG]
In this day and age of GPS:
– I still don’t understand how the car location was misreported to the public. Okay, if they were just relaying by landmark (e.g. hey jimmy, the car was at the intersection of 34-8-36 and a side road on the north edge of the BLM area near the river) and not GPS coordinates, then maybe I suppose I could understand.
[/quote]
While I am under no “gag order” specifically, I will defer out of respect to the system and wait until the appropriate time to address this.
[quote=RodneyG]
– I don’t understand how actual coordinates given by/to the Oregon Army National Guard Aviation could be incorrect.
[/quote]
In “this day and age of GPS,” it’s surprising how little even professionals know about the technology and coordinate systems/projections. For example, right off the top of my head I can think of nine (yes 9!) ways a Lat/Long coordinate could be expressed.
[quote=RodneyG]
…I think in general it hints at possible improvements to use (and education?) of GPS and GIS/mapping. Man it seems silly for me (3000 miles away) to be suggesting the people in this process needed to be better educated in GPS and GIS.
[/quote]
Education is the key! You are absolutely right! Education and people that are willing to get past the fact that just because they spent $300 on a GPS at the local outdoor store doesn’t make them an expert. I fully agree that it seems silly, but it’s not, it’s a real issue.
Lisa:
I would like to suggest that when we discuss the OSSA Report, we take the “blame” card off the table completely. Because blame is not the point, never has been, never should be. The point is learning, so that improvements can be made in the future
Very nicely put Lisa – let’s do it.
I’ve taken a close look at the available information about the Lucia hotel’s actions, and I don’t think they did anything wrong. People can look in our forum for a fuller explanation.
Rocket
Phew 🙂 I’m glad your not mad at me!
I have to agree, as you would probably guess I would…about the projection thing. I tried to say something about that back on page one.
About the GPS thing, I don’t know the skill level of others here, as I think I am the only one who has admitted to being a gis person ….but yeah, I dont know if its an issue necessarily, but I have been doing this for quite a few years and there is ALWAYS more to learn. And trying to explain what we do to non-gis people…is sometimes the most challening part of it even in our places of employment…which is why I have been so heavy on the communication thing. (regardless of what may have happend there).
I have to explain setting data sources and red x’s on an almost weekly basis…to the same 2 people (among other things). Overall though, great work!
correction-
IT’S great work
ADK – I can’t imagine you would ever be an assitant.
770/Mapper or Rocket: excuse my ignorance, GIS ?…I did do a Google and read up a bit, but could you give a bit more in laymans terms ? I am still somewhat confused as to how this could be controversial. It seems like location is location and that it should be something easy and precise, or perhaps I am utterly lost here.
771/ADK – or a sheeple either (my personal favorite).
So heartbreaking and eerie to read this stuff now:
GR p3 – Dec 1 10am – It’s believed that they took a road out of Grants Pass to Gold Beach.
JoeDuck – Dec 3 – it appears to me that the most likely area they were lost in is on logging roads in the mountainous areas west of [Merlin], where you turn off to go to Agness and Gold Beach.
JoeDuck – Dec 3 – Update: It appears the efforts are indeed focusing on 42 rather than Merlin/Agness area.
JoeDuck Commenter ChAos – Dec 3 – I am in complete agreement with you regarding the Merlin-Galice Rd. . . Missing the turn off on BLM 34-8-36 from the Merlin-Galice Rd would be an obvios first mistake. The split or junction for NF-23 seems an even greater possibility. Both mistakes would quickly put you far from your intended destination as well as more confused.
🙂 Paul
Its never that simple. And GIS is about much more than location.
GPS is about location….
I’m not sure I would know where to start. It’s like, the more you get into it, the more it sucks you in, and theres no turning back.
If you want to get an idea of what were talking about with coordinates….google “projections”
basically, there are a lot of different ways to scale the earth (which is 3 dimensional) to a 2d surface, which is what most maps are. But even in 3D there are still different coordinate systems/datums.
Then…not all gps units are created equally or are recording in the same system.
Now I must get back to modelling the earth, and eating lunch 🙂
When talking about the efficiency of the search, especially on Friday and Saturday, it may help to keep the relevant section of the ODOT map in view – see Joe’s rogue-river-map page.
The lodge they were headed to is near Agness. Assume that we know they were last seen at Roseburg (upper right). What routes might they have taken?
OR 42 for a start. But did they go all the way to the coast at Bandon, then down to Gold Beach, and 20 miles inland to Agness? How about the ‘short cut’ through Powers? OK, that has a gravel stretch near Illahe. That wouldn’t have stopped me from taking that route – in good weather during the day.
So they might have missed the turn off for 42 at mp 120. They could easily have back tracked to 42 from 112 or 112. Next option is to go through Riddle, and along Cow Ck. That’s actually the most direct route on the map. mp 80 through Glendale is an alternative route to the Cow Ck area. Stivers got lost in this area, though they probably came north from Galice and Almeda.
Even if we knew that they intended to take ‘Bear Camp’, did they exit I5 at 66 (Merlin), or earlier in the Wolf Creek area?
Also keep in mind that the car was eventually found close the Rogue River on the county line between Curry and Josephine. This is 5 miles NE of the summit on Bear Camp, and 20 miles from the nearest intersection. Could any educated guess have taken ground searchers this far down BLM 34-8-36?
Besides spurs, this area has some alternative routes. There a detours around slide areas on Galice Ck (Peavine, Chrome Ridge). On the Curry side, FS2308 is a gravel alternative to FS23.
paulj
😀 Attention 😀
The Portland Police Bureau missing person’s report (part of which was up briefly last night) WILL be up this evening. (I’d reported earlier it might take a few days but thanks to Portland PB and Maggie we’ll have it up today.
Det. Mike, who authored most of the report, and Maggie are clearing up some problems with the formatting.
772/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_information_system
That’s your best bet. As for location issues, location is location: wherever you go, there you are. The trouble all stems from trying to represent a round object (the earth) on a flat map. Think of trying to flatten an orange peel into a sheet. Something’s gotta give, it’s going to stretch or break or squish when you try to flatten it. That’s where people get into trouble. That’s why location isn’t location when using a GPS.
Good morning everyone,
Joe, just sent you email from my wk email to let you know the PPB report has been correctly formatted and is available for accurate re-posting. Please contact me at wk and we will make arrangements to have that immediately available.
If you are not available, I will contact Maggie later and take care of it. Sorry for delay and confusion.
Detective Mike W., is there a standard protocol that the Portland police must follow when requesting credit card and/or phone records from a hotel? Could you describe that protocol and tell us whether the Portland police followed it when they requested those records from the Hotel Lucia?
Surely the Portland police didn’t simply show up at the hotel’s door and say, This is important, so give us the records, right?
paulj, regarding the search area, I agree. Reading some comments here, I have been amused (bemused?) by some who have said similar to “Why didn’t they just check 34-8-36?”.
While the mistake at the fork appears to have been obvious to many people, and 34-8-36 seems like the first place you’d look after clearing 23 itself, the fact is, they were some 20 driving miles on 34-8-36 from the fork. And as someone noted earlier, that’s assuming they took the correct forks to stay on 34-8-36 while in that maze.
I don’t know how many total miles of logging road are accessible from the infamous obvious fork, but it is a large number. Unless there’s some obvious path they would take once inside the maze, searching all the roads from the infamous obvious fork alone (ignoring all other spurs off of Bear Camp) would either take a long time, a large army, or both.
And all of this assumes you’ve made the decision that they took the Bear Camp route in the first place. And also assumes that you’re ignoring any other tips you might have.
I think what this points out, more than anything, is that if the cell phone ping line-of-sight maps had been available and understood earlier, the search area would have been CONSIDERABLY smaller.
Which brings us back to the question: How could the information eventually received from EDGE have been sought out and received sooner? Is it even a reasonable and feasible thought that the records for all towers between Portland and Gold Beach be searched?
776/Paulj: Interesting discussion of all the different roads in the area and routes to the coast, but want to clear up one significant error: “The lodge they were headed to is near Agness.”
Actually, Tu Tu Tun lodge is a lot closer to Gold Beach than to Agness. TTT is approx. 6 miles up the Rogue River from Gold Beach. Agness is approx. 35 miles up the Rogue River from Gold Beach.
An element in this story IS the dearth of good routes to the coast in Southern Oregon. That dearth of routes is likely a contributer to their picking Bear Camp off the map and a compelling reason Oregon maps need stronger warnings as to the potential perils of that road in winter.
Paul wrote:
That dearth of routes is likely a contributor to their picking Bear Camp off the map and a compelling reason Oregon maps need stronger warnings
Good points Paul
783/Joe: That is not to imply they should cut more routes to the coast. Leave wilderness wilderness – part of what makes your part of our state so compellingly beautiful is fewer roads, not more.
I’ve read suggestions elsewhere that BC be widened and/or upgraded. My vote on that is a resounding no. They do need to reroute the sections prone to slides, but BC should remain a wilderness road, not become a freeway thoroughfare.
The PPB report has been provided to Maggie for posting as soon as she is available, since she was so kind to quickly post it originally. Many thanks to Maggie and Joe for being committed to getting accurate and objective information out regarding this case, and to all for their interest in keeping open minds until being availed of those facts.
I cannot post specifically during work hours but will try to check in later this evening. Have a good day.
What about the protocol for the records request to the hotel, Mike? Are there rules on that? What are the rules, and did the police follow them?
Re: 784 – Totally agree with you Paul. I’m sure the people of that scenic area wouldn’t want the beauty of it marred by more road systems. We should all know that’s not the answer.
A question for the locals – I might have missed this on here if it has already been answered. Are there any plans in discussion (either before this incident, or since) of adding more cell towers in the communities surrounding the wilderness area? I know it’s a big argument in the Adirondacks – the fight for public safety versus scenic beauty. In fact out here, the towers are referred to as “Frankinpines”.
ADK (phew, glad I’m not a sheeple, either, Paul.)
To be more specific, the Oregonian reported that “the Hotel Lucia in downtown Portland, where the Kims stayed Nov. 24, refused to turn over credit card or cell phone contact information that could help track them, even after Weinstein faxed them a request Nov. 30 on Portland Police Bureau letterhead.”
Is that the standard protocol for requesting credit card and hotel records from hotels in Portland? Does a faxed request carry legal force? Do the Portland police routinely make requests in this way, and do other hotels always honor such requests?
Paul re: Leave Bear Camp as a “wild” road and don’t cut more roads up there.
I agree. I don’t think it’s even remotely feasible to make that route year-round road as it would not solve many travel problems in the area and it would cost a fortune to build, patrol, and maintain. But I do think new signage is important and only is needed at a handful of the places with a history of travel confusion.
Thanks to Det. Mike and Maggie for the Portland PB report!
Charles you may want to see the earlier comments by “Det. Mike W” (using Control F to search this and previous page).
Also, the report coming up soon details how persistently Det. Weinstein tried to get the hotel to turn over the information.
Further:
– Do the Portland police have a history with Hotel Lucia, or was this the department’s first records request? If there is a history, did the department’s request to Hotel Lucia depart from prior procedures in any way?
– If the Portland police thought the data was urgently needed to save lives, what were the alternatives it faced?
– If a search warrant was the only alternative, is there an expedited procedure to obtain a warrant when police believe lives are at stake? If so, did the police use that procedure?
I ask these questions because the Hotel Lucia has been defamed. Truth is always a defense to defamation, and my questions are aimed at getting to the truth. Seeing as how you, Det. Weinstein, were quoted in the Oregonian about the hotel’s refusal to provide records, and have posted on this site, I decided to pose the questions to you.
I’m also interested in the delay that’s been alleged in the Portland police’s processing of the missing persons report from San Francisco.
– Was there a delay due to someone being out sick, as has been reported?
– If so, how long did the delay last?
– How fast are missing persons reports typically handled, and how many does your department receive in a typical day and a typical week? From my vantage point as someone who has covered the police beat in the past, it seems as if the Portland police handled that missing persons report fast, not slow.
I will look at the history of Det. Mike W’s comments again. I didn’t see information that would answer my questions when I looked the first time, but maybe I missed it. Thanks for the tip, joeduck.
Due to work constraints, I cannot post this immediately, but I am hoping to have this posted by around 7:30PM Pacific Time this evening. Thank you for your patience! 🙂
You are wonderful Maggie 🙂
THANK You so much for all your work on this.
“the dad seemed tired” was the only thing Roseburg Denny’s employee Gina Larsen specifically noted — in an interview with Detective Mike Weinstein on 120106 per the PPB report.
I wonder if fatigue was a contributing factor in James’ fateful driving decisions later that night?
781 – The technology behind the cell phone ping tracking has been discussed earlier. If I recall correctly, it involved several steps
– Cell phone employee searched their billing records for calls to or from one of the Kim phones. In this case 2 text messages to one of the phones were found.
– He determined from those records which tower routed the call. Apparently the records also show which antennas on the tower handled them as well. This gives a wide pie wedge, generally to the west of Glendale.
– narrowing it down to line-of-sight points requires knowledge of the engineering studies that were done when the towers were installed.
It was mentioned earlier that different cell companies organize their call data in different ways. With some it is easier to track down recent records for a specific phone, with others, it is harder.
I suspect the line-of-sight information, especially in mountains like this, is highly specialized, and not organized to facilitate this type of search. This search was cutting edge, not routine.
Note, though, that most cell phones have a builtin GPS receiver. 911 operators can, in theory, send a signal to the phone, querying it regarding the current GPS coordinates. But, the user has to call 911 to enable this transaction.
I also get the impression that text-messaging can work even when voice calls don’t go through. If James Kim had a GPS unit with him, he might have been able to send a text message to his father saying: ‘help, I am lost at …N, …W’. That might not have worked at the car, but might have gotten through at some point a few miles down the road. This, of course, is speculation.
paulj
776 – paulj “Could any educated guess have taken ground searchers this far down BLM 34-8-36?”
After reading the report briefly last night before it went down, it appeared to me that a format* was followed for reported missing persons–to gather information including starting point, credit card use (possible fraudulent use and foul play, which was eliminated), possible/probable and actual route taken, and so on as you will see in the report.
It makes sense to me that the process would first eliminate logical, more common occurrences like foul play or an accident on a common route to their destination. The Kim’s choice of NF23/Bear Camp route, complicated by the unlikely decision to travel some 24 miles** on a poorly maintained logging road to find shelter from the snow would not have occurred or been acted upon until likely possibilities had been eliminated.
After reading the exchange with the Sheriff in Curry Co., I wondered if his early hunch that they could be in the Bear Camp area had been choice #1, and all efforts to find the Kim family had centered there, they may been found prior to James going for help. But there was such a large area to search and it took time, not even considering all the complications in the search process that we have discussed here, to eliminate those likely possibilities. Even Mr. Kim searched the “main routes” first, probably looking for evidence of an accident.
*Of course, Det. Mike could tell us if there is a specific “MO” for missing persons cases.(sorry, I don’t know the jargon. Took me forever to figure out “LE”.)
**I’m still baffled by the distance they traveled on 34-8-36 as I can’t think of a logical reason to go this far on a deteriorating road. I haven’t seen any discussion that they may have thought they could find the Black Bar Lodge. Is it on the ODOT map? Isn’t it off a spur road of 34-8-36?
Is there a URL on JoeDuck for that map?
795-Kip
I thought about that, too. That James was already tired.
776 – You are right, the lodge is closer to Gold Beach. I had looked it up a while back, noting that it was at a bend in the river, and that it was a bit downstream from a bridge. When I wrote the recent post, I mistakenly assumed that this bend and bridge were close to Agness, rather than 20 miles further downstream.
That increases the likelihood that Kims would have stuck with 101, rather than go through Powers. It wouldn’t though rule out Powers or Eden Valley (from Cow Ck) in a thorough search.
paulj
I was walking around thinking of what I wrote in msg #791 that the Hotel Lucia had been “defamed.” I need to explain what I meant, because after looking at the Merriam-Webster’s On-Line Dictionary I see that I was using a definition that is not there, but which I learned in a class on the law of libel when I was in journalism school.
Libel is written defamation; slander is spoken defamation. To defame is to disseminate negative information. Thus, if I kill three people, am arrested, tried and convicted of the murders, the media that report on my crimes have libeled and slandered me by disseminating negative information.
If I file a lawsuit, truth is an absolute defense to libel and slander, i.e., the act of defamation. If it turned out that I was wrongly convicted, they could defend themselves on the grounds that they were actually disseminating the statements of others, i.e., the police, the courts and various witnesses.
If, when they transmitted those reports, they were negligent in investigating the facts alleged, I could win damages for their defamation. A famous case is that was Richard Jewell, a security guard falsely accused of planting bombs in Atlanta during the Olympics there. Even though various media reported the allgations of police, their failure to check the information resulted in a nice, big series of out-of-court settlements in which Jewell was paid lots and lots of money.
If everything above had happened but I happened to be a public figure — say, a senator or a prominent business leader — then to collect damages I’d have to show that the media hadn’t been merely negligent, but had displayed a reckless disregard for whether the allegations against me were true or not. That standard is known as “actual malice,” and it’s a lot tougher to prove than negligence.
In any case, the bottom line is that, because of my journalism background, when I wrote that the Hotel Lucia had been “defamed” I meant that negative information had been published about them. Not that the information isn’t true, only that it was negative. That’s how it goes in libel and slander law, but it’s not the definition you’d find in Merrian-Webster’s dictionary.
Sorry for the length and technicality of this, but I wanted to explain what I wrote to reduce the chance that my meaning would be misconstrued. I’ll re-check Det. Weinstein’s posting here and see if he already answered some or all of my questions.
Deteriorating road?
Well perhaps. Its a storm. The visibility is deteriorating. The ability to turn the vehicle around is deteriorating and perhaps has diminished so much that it is not an option. The inclination to turn around is certainly gone.
I don’t know if there is any way for them to have known whether continuing-on was unwise or not. They knew there was nothing behind them as far as gas stations or snack shops.
796- Recently I was trying to dial out on a new phone I bought and while I was tring to connect, a 911 operator came on asking if I had made a 911 call. I said no and apologized. Then I noticed there was a button with a red corss on it that I hadn’t noticed which I surmised to be a 911 button. I didn’t test it out as I didn’t want to bother the 911 operator again.
Less than 5 minutes later a policeman was ringing my doorbell asking if I was OK.
Amazing! But how embarrassing. I thanked him for responding so quickly to my apparent accidental call.
It was a nice secure feeling to know that they would respond that quickly had I had an emergency. I live in a town in S.Oregon with less than 20K people.
If the Kim’s had had called 911, which I’m sure they did, would they have been located based on the same ping, or whatever on that tower? Or not because they were an outgoing call and it didn’t reach a tower due to their location? Also, I have wondered why James didn’t hike to the top of a ridge for possible better reception. I have learned that I may have reception at higher altitudes when wandering around on logging roads like I do.
mapper and Rocket, of course you are right about the details and complexity of GIS, but the problems here don’t *appear* to be the result of confusion with datums, projections, differential corrections, or even coordinate formats. To me anyway, they look like much simpler issues, which I guess is the strange part. Yes, I know this information was non-critical once the car was found. And, yes, these mistakes happen in relaying information. Until told otherwise, I’ll just have to chalk it up to that I guess.
Re: Driving so far down 34-8-36. I continue to believe that they believed they were on the main route the whole time (or at least nearly the whole time), getting ever closer to their destination.
Also, I’ve obviously never been there, but (according to online maps and aerials) 34-8-36 intersects with so many side-spurs that it appears there are plenty of places to turn around.
Orygungirl – there is a tab at top of all blog pages for “Rogue River Map” page which is here:
https://joeduck.wordpress.com/rogue-river-map/
Scroll down for ODOT map snip that Ellen scanned in for us (Thanks Ellen!).
I glanced at a study of roads in this forest district. I believe it has the name ‘Powers’ in the title, and was on district’s web site. It gives a bit of history of road building the district. Bear Camp was put in over the course of a number of years in the 1930s.
I don’t know when it was paved. I suspect BLM 34-8-36 was paved first, judging from the layout of the crucial junction. The BLM road probably was graded and paved at the peak of logging in that area. Paving FS 23 may have been an afterthought.
Looking at the route on Google Earth it is evident that Bear Camp runs along a ridge for a long ways. From the junction, FS 23 climbs on to the ridge, with occasional side cuts on the south slope. It is not until it gets close to Agness that is zigzags down the slope to the valley.
Contrast this with most highways through mountains. Usually they wind their way up a valley, and side valleys until they reach a pass, and then quickly drop down a valley on the other side. By sticking with the valleys, OR42 stays below 1500′. US 199 doesn’t climb very high either.
The ridge top run is typical of road building in wagon days. It involves some steep climbs, but a minimum of earth moving. I have driven part of the historic Gasquet road in California that runs high above the Smith River, while the modern US 199 follows the river.
Complicating road building in this area are the designated Wilderness areas, and the two ‘Wild and Scenic’ rivers – the Rogue and Illinois. In addition, there is Biscuit Fire of 2002, and controversy over salvage logging of the burned area. FS23 was a north fire break.
Upgrading FS23 will not help in the winter – unless the Forest Service, or the counties commit to plowing it. With the loss of O&C funds, the counties aren’t going to be expanding services soon.
paulj
797/ Orygungirl: Black Bar Lodge is not on the ODOT map. It is off a spur road that is gated and locked if memory serves me correctly.
802
Actually, Joco or R3 (can’t remember which) commented on what actually happened with the car location. I think you could search for it but I didn’t want to comment on that myself.
800 – “deteriorating road” I was referring to the following quotes:
148. Quote by John James: “The thing that shocked me was how far they went. I don’t know of anyone who has driven that far.
I am not kidding you, this road steadily degrades to the point that the brush is slapping the middle of your windshield for a long way before the Kims decided to stop.
When I drove the CNN crew out to the location it blew me away that they continued on that road in that weather.”
“1.John James – would really love to hear answer to the 2nd part of 138. Also, could you comment on how quickly, in terms of miles, the BLM fork road degrades ?…in other words, in your opinion, would they have known fairly quickly they were on something a far cry from a route to the coast ?”
Comment by Paul | January 8, 2007
JUst questioning why they drove that far unless they really believed it was going somewhere. I’d like to hear from John James how quickly it deteriorates. One mile on a logging road, whether is is gravelled or not, is a long mile in the best of conditions. I don’t know if this road is still being improved for either logging or the lodge’s access purposed. I doubt it and I remember John saying they don’t use that road except to bring in supplies and access the lodge themselves–guests don’t arrive that way. It sounds like they went another 6 miles past the turn off from the lodge. So I have to believe they thought they were going somewhere, not just to find refuge from the snow. Kati had said they had backed down what many of us believe was NF23 and taken the spur road.
802 / Since I’m slow, tell me again what problems you are referring to. The ones that “don’t *appear* to be the result of confusion with datums, projections, differential corrections, or even coordinate formats.”
Are we talking location of the car, or what?
joeduck, thanks for pointing out that Detective Weinstein had already answered most of my questions. My understanding from what I read is this:
– The timing of SFPD’s transmittal of its missing persons report relative to Det. Weinstein’s sick leave was such that there was no delay in following up. (Side note: Det. Weinstein, if you haven’t already done so, you might want to designate a substitute to take new requests when you’re out sick. I might be wrong, but was that a big bullet I saw tumbling end over end about an inch from your ear? If you’d been sick another day and no one had handled the report, they’d be crucifying you right now.)
– Hotel Lucia invoked its privacy rules, and there was no departure from department protocol. (I still wonder whether there any history with them; was this the first time they’d ever been asked for such data?)
– Other holders of similar records routinely give them to the Portland police in emergencies. (Question: Including hotels?)
– The alternative is to get a subpeona. I’m still a little unclear on why, if you thought the information was critical, you didn’t pursue a subpoena the next day. That might seem like a criticism on my part, but it’s really more of a sense I have that maybe the information wasn’t all that important. I’ve taken a close look at this, and I don’t see the relevance. I understand that, in the heat of the moment, you’d want to scoop up all the data. I’ve been there and done that, in my own way. But in the final analysis I don’t think it mattered.
– Hotel Lucia was within its rights to refuse to give the information.
If any of what I’ve written is incorrect, please say so. I will look at the big file when it becomes available.
803/Rodney G/ That contradicts Kati’s account that they correctly discerned the correct route and took the left fork initially, despite the confusing signage. Heavy snow turned them back and they descended in reverse to the fork, where the went down BLM 34-8-36. Beyond speculation, (numerous ones have been posted here earlier) we simply don’t know why they took that fork instead of just continuing back down the way they came. It was the one route where they knew, for sure, civilization resided.
800 –
When I wrote about a deteriorating road, I had BLM 34-8-36 beyond the junction in mind. At the junction it is wide and paved. Paving, I think, stops after a couple of miles. In an earlier post, the Black Bar Lodge caretaker expressed surprise that Kims had driven beyond the lodge turnoff. When he guided a CNN crew down that road, the radio truck crew refused to go all the way to where the car was found. I think there was even mention of branches brushing against the car (Oregon ‘pinstriping’).
I have driven roads like this in Washington and British Columbia. When I do, I keep an eye out for wide spots where I could turn around, and when in doubt I stop, and walk down the road a ways. More than once I have turned back because of doubts as to whether I could continue through, or find a viable turn around further up. I have been extra careful when bad weather or snow are involved. When a road gets overgrown it is a sure sign that it gets very little traffic, and is not a through road.
paulj
809.
Yes, the location of the car. I dont think it had anything to do with gps. According to what I read here.
It is still worthwhile to point out what most dont understand about gps coordinates and 2d maps.
809.
Whoa, sorry Rocket got you confused with Rodney. Back to work…reading to fast.
Thanks, Joe for the map like. I had been to it several times, but didn’t scroll down to the section of the ODOT map. Very helpful.
805- paulj quote
“I glanced at a study of roads in this forest district. I believe it has the name ‘Powers’ in the title, and was on district’s web site. It gives a bit of history of road building the district. Bear Camp was put in over the course of a number of years in the 1930s.
I don’t know when it was paved. I suspect BLM 34-8-36 was paved first, judging from the layout of the crucial junction. The BLM road probably was graded and paved at the peak of logging in that area. Paving FS 23 may have been an afterthought.”
Very helpful information. Where did you find this? I have seen very few paved logging roads. Sometimes the main road in is paved. Once paved, they disintegrate fairly rapidly, I would guess, due to heavy vehicles and the differences in temp in summer/winter. I would say that logging was in its prime in the 50’s and 60’s. I have a friend whose father built hundreds of logging roads during that era and maybe into the 70’s, not sure about that–in our area of S. Oregon which is just over the CA border.
812/Paulj: I spoke with a local today who lives in the area who has been down the 34-8-36 road past the spur and he confirmed the pavement runs out after several miles (he thought 2 or 3 – he did not clock it). He confirmed that its condition after that goes from bad to worse, in line with what John James said, and what you can see on the CNN video.
I am going to add “Oregon pinstriping” to our list – had never heard that one before, but I lead a sheltered life. 🙂 When JoCoSar and RRR can speak, there insights would shed more light.
812 “When I wrote about a deteriorating road…
…I have driven roads like this in Washington and British Columbia. When I do, I keep an eye out for wide spots where I could turn around, and when in doubt I stop, and walk down the road a ways. More than once I have turned back because of doubts as to whether I could continue through, or find a viable turn around further up. I have been extra careful when bad weather or snow are involved. When a road gets overgrown it is a sure sign that it gets very little traffic, and is not a through road.”
Thanks, I feel better being in agreement with someone. I would be willing to take an off-road trip with you! At least I’d have a fair chance of making it. Me, too.
About turning around…I have gotten myself so jammed in trying to turn around that I had to inch the vehicle around, literally for 20 minutes or more, hoping I didn’t slide off or high center. Good reason not to go logging or other fecreation access roads in snow, but I still will. Just with much more caution in the future.
815/Orygungirl: Paving FS23 was not likely an afterthought, it receives heavy and consistent usage for rafting shuttles to Foster Bar, the take out for the Wild section of the Rogue near Galice. When I first started rafting the Rogue vast sections of Bear Camp, if not all of it, were gravel. It was atrocious, badly rutted with horrific washboards. I don’t know this for a fact (JoCoSar likely does), but am all but certain it was paved due to the raft/fishing related traffic, and because locals infrequently use it to get to Gold Beach in the summer.
Of course, paved roads tend to be slipperier (gee, no spell check to tell me that’s not a word) than unpaved roads. Many of our roads here, and I may presume up on Bear Camp are granite and they provide some traction, as does gravel. I’d rather drive an unpaved road in winter, especially if it has a chance of getting me somewhere I want to go.
If dropping below the snow level was their primary goal, going as far as the Black Bar Lodge turnoff would have been sufficient. I think BLM 34-8-36 climbs gradually beyond this.
The fact that James though he was only 4-6 miles from Galice suggests that they thought the road they were on lead back to the east. There is another maze of BLM roads just west of Galice. But they may only have come to this conclusion during the long week of waiting.
Ideally, speculation like this about their route and decisions could make other drivers better backcountry navigators. Whether it helps in improving road signage, or SAR planning is another matter.
paulj
Paul (#811), as I wrote my narrative on the website whose name cannot be mentioned, I struggled with the issue you and #803 have raised: Did the Kims choose the logging road after seeing the fourth warning sign sitting there on FS-23 (Bear Camp Road) just past the sign with the mileage to Agness and Gold Beach, or did they travel up the FS-23 a ways before hitting a snowbank and then backing down FS-23 to the intersection?
Only a followup interview with Mrs. Kim can settle that question once and for all. In the meantime, the Associated Press account of Dec. 7 convinces me that they stopped, saw the 4th warning sign and took the logging road.
Now here’s the kicker. In something like this, where there are lots of details to contend with, you have to pay attention to the details while remembering their relevance and priority.
What really matters here is whether they took the logging road by mistake, because of the poor signage that people have cited, or with the knowledge that they were turning off of their path and going a different way.
Whether they went up FS-23 for a while or not, under either scenario they had a decision to make at the intersection of Bear Camp Road and the logging road: Which way should we go? Should we turn around and go back to I-5, or should we take this other road?
We know what choice they made, and that it was the wrong choice. Even under the circumstances it was the wrong choice. They had room to turn around, and that’s what they should have done. We also know that it was a conscious choice, not a blunder induced by bad signs. One way or the other, when they took that road that made the choice to abandon their previous route.
Ergo: The overwhelming majority of news reports, and much of the commentary, that blamed their wrong turn on bad signs at the intersection was simply wrong. It wasn’t the signs, or lack of them, that made the Kims do what they did. When you combine facts and logic, that is the inescapable conclusion.
What Kati Kim can tell us about that issue is WHY they those the logging road instead of turning around and going back the way they came.
Oops.
What Kati Kim can tell us about that issue is WHY they chose the logging road instead of turning around and going back the way they came. It was ther crucial error on the night of Nov. 25th, and it’s a real mystery.
Like many, I have been lurking behind the scenes, analyzing and sifting through the information be it fact, fiction or just someone’s opinion.
First of all, I don’t believe any one person or event resulted in the death of James Kim. Sometimes bad things just happen. That’s life. I do however believe John James account of the conversation between, the Deputy, Sara R. and himself. What does he have to lose? Nothing. Sara R. on the other hand has everything to lose.
The media has portrayed her in a very unflattering light, especially when she tried to defend herself about being so curt to Mr. James (then she turns around and states she didn’t even talk to him). When I read her “I was trying not to throw-up” quote in the Oregonian my first thought was, “I hope I never get lost in Josephine County”. This brings me to my point, regardless of what really happened, her perceived ability to perform her duties as SAR Coordinator has been compromised.
I know it has been stated that she did not lead the search, but her name will forever be attached to this tragedy despite what the upcoming report finds. In due time this will all blow over but in print, the entire Jo Co SAR unit and their leadership has been labeled as sub-standard. I am not saying they are, I am just saying that is now the perception and that is really what is the most damaging.
Thanks and I enjoy reading all your posts!
818-Paul I’ve been on Bear Camp. And I’m sure it was not all paved and as you described. It’s been a while since I was up there. When I heard reports of a paved road I was surprised. It was probably paved because it showed continues use due to the rafting and continuing logging use(someone posted that there were loggers and Christmas tree hunters up there after the Kims were found). They would have paved it to preserve the road as well as for safety. Dust was probably not an issue.
We paid for paving a road on FS land by my cabin and it was requested for the dust problem, but the FS allowed it to be done to preserve the road. They didn’t care that we didn’t like the dust.
mapper – Yes, still worthwhile. Hope I didn’t sound like it wasn’t.
Rocket – I’m talking about the 3 locations reported for the car. It’s just strange, but understandable I guess.
Paul – Until I see a direct quote from Kati that they knowingly sat at that insersection and knowingly took the right fork, I will not believe they were on the BLM roads on purpose. The earlier quoted account is not a quote from Kati, and I read it more as a fluffy story by the writer.
All – This goes back to why I asked if there are any 34-8-36 signs in the BLM maze. If (IF!) they knew they were on 34-8-36 before the fork at 23, and they took the right fork by mistake, I can totally understand them just continuing to follow 34-8-36, thinking they were still headed to Agness. The state of the road as reported by John James and others certainly casts doubt as to why they didn’t turn around, regardless of whether they were there on purpose.
Sorry, I’m probably done for the night. Thanks for all the input and discussion.
821-822 Charles, I agree with you that the signs and map were not the problem. And that it was the decision to go SO FAR down that BLM road, and their error in thinking that they could get out of the snow, as Kati was quoted as saying–I believe–by going out that road. I they went substantially lower in altitude (which may explain the long drive out and down that road), the dropping temperature during the course of the night would not cause the snow to stop, as they found out the next morning.
I don’t know how or if they got any sleep that night, James certainly needed it (from a comment by the waitress at Denny’s that he looked tired), but I wouldn’t have been able to sleep in those conditons, knowing I was using gas to stay warm, if only occasionally throughout the night.
821/822-Charles: it is, in my mind, one of the central mysteries to the story. I, however, choose to withhold making this judgement just yet: “Even under the circumstances it was the wrong choice.” Kati’s narrative gets very skimpy at the point where this decision, a crucial one for sure, is made. With benefit of 20/20 hindsight, it was clearly a bad call, but I would like to hear her version of the “why” part of that decision first. So many times, as this narrative has unfolded, subsequent revelations have put previous conclusions or opinions in a new and different light….in some cases radically revising perceptions and opinions.
orygungirl (#826), if they took the logging road to get out of the snow, which from having read other accounts I tend to believe was their motive for doing so, this begs another question.
If you go to my narrative and the links to the warning sign pictures and do the math, you will see that the third warning sign was 4 miles from the fourth warning sign at the intersection. The second warning sign was 18 miles from the third one and 22 miles from the fourth one.
When they sat at the intersection wondering what to do, the logical thing to do was turn around and go back the way they came. But they didn’t do it. Why not? The answer that comes to mind is that they had driven through heavy snow to get to that intersection, then said to each other, We can’t go back that way. We’ll get stuck, or fall off the road!
If that’s what happened, then there was another crucial error: Coming up Bear Camp Road through the heavy snow. Yes, they should have turned back at the intersection. They also should have turned back before they ever got there.
Rodney
No..I just got confused and read Rockets response to you, as if you were responding to me again…got confused cause of the numbers and the similarity of your names!
nobody sue me please… 🙂 honest mistake, misread signage….
Paul, I’d love to hear her version. But we really don’t need to hear her version to know that they took the logging road on purpose. Nor do we need to hear her version to know that they understood all the signs.
We need to hear her version to know WHY they kept going through the snow, and WHY they turned down the logging road.
One other thing, Paul. The story itself has not changed. Enough facts have been out there since the AP ran its story on Dec. 7 for people to ascertain 99% of what happened. At this point, the questions are really peripheral ones like why it happened and what lessons should be drawn from it.
825/Rodney G: I completely agree that the theory that they went down 34-8-36 initially, at the fork, and that they thought they were on the road to Agness all along, makes way way more sense than the alternative version. It does, however, seem to contradict Kati’s account, and I’m not sure I on what grounds you would quantify the story as “fluffy” when the reporter is otherwise reasonably specific on specifics in many places.
I can’t speak for others, but I simply can’t reach any conclusions until Kati has had a chance to explain or clarify further (if she ever chooses to do so). We have one account, taken almost immediately after an extremely severe and debilitating trauma, and one account only from her. That account is as relayed by a 3rd party, which introduces yet another layer where misunderstandings or misinterpretations could occur. She may have, under those conditions, left out relevant and very germane facts. She may have been misunderstood. She may not have – herself – had an accurate memory of where they REALLY were at a given point in her narrative. We just won’t know, or at least I won’t, until we have more and better information from her.
No, Paul, go and read the AP story. They reported that authorities had interviewed Kati Kim over a period of several days. I once interviewed a woman who had been standing next to her husband when concrete fell on his and his brains squirted out all over the carpet. She told me exactly what happened.
Charles 830/831: See my post 832 and I’m going to leave it at that. Agree to disagree if you wish, but that’s where I stand.
Oops.
” … when concrete fell on him … ”
Trauma victims tend to either have complete amnesia or very good recall. Kati Kim was in reasonably good shape when she was found, and they had a few days to talk with her. I don’t mean in any way to denigrate her or the tragedy here, but people almost always have a pretty good idea of what went down. Not perfect, but usually pretty good. She had been in a car for nine days with all kinds of time to retrace her steps.
Maintaining Driving Ability?
Okay. Snow eventually melts or can be dug out somehow. Battery power does decline and particularly declines in cold weather but a car atleast has the potential to be re-started.
Once the heater was run to the point of fuel exhaustion and tires were burned for a combination of heat and signal-smoke, there was no way to drive out.
Just how cold was it and how desperate was there situation the first nights? Could they have simply put up with bone-chilling cold and then driven back the way they had come?
Paul, where I will agree with you is on this point: A thorough, careful, fair and dignified interview would lend clarity to several points.
Where we disagree is on the question of how much we can know from what we’ve already learned, and the logic proceeding from it. There are very, very few events that don’t have complicating factors. People can throw all kinds of details into the air to make this look more complicated than it really is.
There are small mysteries here, but I think we know what we really need to know already with respect to the Kims. That’s why Dee and I were able to reach firm agreement on their role in the events of Nov. 25-Dec. 6.
837/Charles – that’s why agreeing to disagree is often a more productive solution, I believe we reached an impasse. We do agree an interview would clarify many points.
I took a few lumps yesterday defending the rights of all voices to be heard. At the same time, I’m sensitive to Kati’s dads observation that the quality of the interaction at JD seems to have slipped quite a bit in the last 48 hours. I want to stick to my promise to do better and part of that is knowing when it is best for me to walk away from an unresolvable difference of opinion.
Fair enough, Paul.
835 Volleyball,
Your black and white perspective on things is really getting old. Have you ever had traumatic amnesia?
The affect of the amnesia varies from person to person. It also can arrive immediately or later, it can go away and come back. If you understood the condition you would know this. It is one of our natural built-in defense mechanisms to help us cope.
Sorry but I find you highly obnoxious.
Where did all the other people go?
839/ Thank you, appreciate we can agree to disagree. I do share the intense curiosity about that particular element of the narrative. Hopefully someday we’ll have better clarity.
lurking/840: apologies that went on for too long…back to work, which is probably where everyone else is.
#840, I understand. My mother once told me that all my other siblings said, “Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!” when the doctor spanked ’em, but that she distictly heard me say, “Whhhhhhhhhhhhhhy!” 🙂
Afternoon all..
837 – Charles:
-30-
from digg.com comments — 12/01, the day the Kims burned 4 tires signaling frantically, vainly for help…
by sezzme on 12/01/06 — “If you look at a map of Gold Beach, Oregon, there is what SEEMS to be a perfectly good road between Gold Beach and I-5. It isn’t. THAT is one BAD road. I was in Gold Beach once and the locals warned me about going on that road. It’s hardly more than a car-eating, snow-covered trap for unsuspecting travelers. It’s a linear hazard. I listened to the locals and avoided it. If he called from Salem, I bet he ended up trying to drive on that road and now that stretch has got him and his car like a python gets a rat. I REALLY hope he did NOT choose that road!”
by JoeDuck on 12/01/06 — “Sezzme I fear that’s exactly what happened. I’m from Southern Oregon and it’s common knowledge locally to avoid that road in bad weather and most of winter. It’s called the “Bear Camp Road” or the “Merlin Galice Road. I’ve been following up with Ranger districts and Oregon trooper dispatch but so far nobody seems to be working that angle very hard. There are many logging roads that spur off that route and people can get seriously lost, especially at night.”
SAR leadership,, do you read? ..over
Hi RRR, good to have you back.
845/Madeleine: help me, I’m lost….is that an emoticon?
847- Why thank you had to go take some agression out on Mt A today…Jumping class!!! 🙂
Since it is so hard to get the signs and maps right why doesn’t the Oregon issue one of these for every traveler that comes into the area.
It will definitely solve the problem.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/the-coolest-gadget-thats-not-at-ces-campa-usas-disaster-reconnaissance-system-227777.php
849/RRR – back when I still had knees I used to take some pretty major airtime, but on two boards, not one. I am supremely envious. I suspect conditions were excellent.
There has been some dialogue today and previous about just how fast, and how badly, the BKM road degrades after the fork. If memory serves me, you can’t address that yet, correct ? I had asked John James but he was already offline I thing when I asked it.
RRR/I think you want one of those gizmos lurker is selling! (850)
851- That is correct that crosses my duct tape line 🙂
I have perfected my 360 off the table top with a tale grab…condtions were not perfect but ok…….
852- I am always up for a new gizmo!!! Kudos to iPOD today, I ran over mine in the snow today and it still works no damage!!!! WOW that dang apple company!!
Why I think the Kims passed all those snow warning signs:
Please look at the signs in these photos and then read my theory below.
I am blonde, so maybe you have all already figured this out a month ago. If so, please don’t throw me off this blog for wasting your time.
Also, you will be tested on this information, so read up! Or rather down.
1. Shows BLM 34-8-36 (not NF23) attached to sign saying Narrow Winding Road Ahead:,…
2. Shows BLM 34-8-36 (not NF23) – Sign at Galice Ck Rd. saying Galice Access Road:
3. Shows NF23 (not BLM 34-8-36) – One of four snow warnings with NF23 on the sign:
Bear Camp Road NF23
May Be Blocked by Snowdrifts
____Miles Ahead
4. Shows NF23 on left/23/Bear Camp side of road at THE INTERSECTION (NF23/BLM34-8-36) where Kims started out the BLM road and were eventually found 24 miles in:. This is the sign I am focusing on in this post.
5. Shows NF23 (not BLM34-8-36) Sign just past THE INTERSECTION –Fourth snow warning sign:
Until I looked again at the ODOT map, I thought the Kims would have been following the signs that said NF23, which are displayed on all four of the show warning signs.
NF23 is not mentioned on the ODOT map like 42 is above it. And of course, 42 is a solid red line, but we have been all over that subject. There is no number or name on the entire stretch between Merlin and/Gold Beach, so this would have required considerable attention to the map in relation to road signs by the Kims. And reliance on the road signs that give the mileage to Agness and Gold Beach rather than reliance on road numbers which look like they are inconsistent.
The NF23 signs appear to be the most prominent of all the signs that were photographed and are on the photobucket site.
BLM signs are less prominent and harder to read. Not placed there for the everyday traveler, but rather for a BLM map reader.
I did not see, in the sign photos, any real cross-reference that Bear Camp Rd/NF23 (warnings!) is the name of the road one will be traveling on to Agness/Gold Beach.
So if the Kims were focusing on any signs at all, and I believe they were with so little guidance on the map, they were, IMO, following the mileage signs. Especially knowing they were possibly low on gas (had probably hoped to fill up at the Merlin exit, but the station was closed). How many miles to go would be the motivating factor. They may not have figured out, until they were nearing THE INTERSECTION of NF23/Bear Camp and BLM 34-8-36 that all the signs they had seen warning of snow blockage were referring to the road they had to take to their destination.
HERE they would know for sure that BC/NF23 and their route were one and the same. And now they know they need to go on the road that had the snow warnings they had seen. And here was another big yellow warning just ahead.
Here, finally, all the references, except BLM34-8-36, are on the same sign.
And NF23 is on a sign on the left of its own road, so there is no question now that they are heading in the direction of the warnings for snow blockage. Plus the road heads up hill here.
The sign:
BEAR CAMP ROAD NF23
AGNESS
FOSTER BAR
GOLD BEACH
And a small sign at the bottom: COAST
And then the fourth NF23/BC snow warning sign just beyond
Unless I have just really blown it here as a map reader and sign reader (of the available photos of signs), it looks to me that the Kims may not have heeded those warning signs about Bear Camp Rd. because they didn’t know they were actually going to be taking that road. They didn’t know that it was the generic term that locals use for the combination of roads, BLMd & NF and. There have been some posts here that even the locals don’t really know where BC really starts.
Perhaps, realizing that they may have chosen the wrong route to the coast, and deciding to cut their losses and press on, they practiced a little wishful thinking that they would not be traveling on BC, that dreaded road. That it was possibly just a side road and not the main road to Agness.
If anyone knows at what point it is obvious that BC and the coast route are the one and the same route, I’d like to know.
Orygungirl that is an *excellent* post in #854.
I wish I could share something I know about this that helps support the gist of what you wrote but I can’t yet.
I can say with some certainly that only a handful of river people could explain the many nuances surrounding the meaning of Bear Camp Road, NF23, NF33, BLM 38 XX XX, Galice Road, Agness, etc, etc.
Orygungirl –
In a couple of my posts about the ODOT map I have also made the point that there are no names on that road. The person who enters the maze is left to their own judgement to figure out what the “main road” is that is shown on the ODOT map.
I have written a lot about the ODOT map on these pages. What you put together above, is really good. And we had a poster here awhile back bring up a simliar point, but not with pictures referencing each sign the way you do. Thank you.
Joe says maybe they didn’t use that map? We will see I guess, what might have happened with that.
Regardless, this is one of the things about the ODOT map that the DOT needs to look into, there are no names on the stretch of road.
Thanks
Joe!!! come on!!
Mapper 856 – what I wrote before was wrong. It appears they did use that map (ie a state DOT road map. Ellen did not have the Kim’s map) and my current understanding is that it came from a Wilsonville Info Center.
848 – Hi, Paul, in journalism, -30- designates “end of story”. I decided not to expend the energy to refute some of the claims made, so basically just cut to the end of the chase, figuring that a journalist as experienced as cW purports to be would get the point.
You spoke so well about your father’s journalistic ethics, and my father shared those, as well. I suppose that’s why I have such a visceral reaction at times to those claiming to explain how things are.
orygungirl, I don’t think they were particularly low on gas when they passed Merlin that night. The vehicle’s range was 450 miles, and Hailey to Merlin is 150 miles. I-5 gets a little hilly as you head south of Roseburg but nothing major. So they probably had ’round about two-thirds of a tank when they passed Merlin with 80 or so miles to Gold Beach.
I agree with you to an extent about the warning signs, except for three important points. First, a mixture of rain and snow was falling when they reached the very first of them, and then they headed higher into snowfall. Second, at the intersection of FS-23 and the logging road, they went down the logging road because, as Kati Kim was quoted telling investigators, they were seeking lower elevation below the snowline. Third, at that intersection they didn’t turn back toward I-5.
Considering that information, it’s irrelevant whether the snow warnings were for FS-23. They started on a route in rain and snow. It turned snowy, and that happened they saw another snow warning sign. And at the intersection, they didn’t turn around but rather headed down and unknown road seeking a lower elevation. That suggests that they were reluctant to turn around because they’d driven through snow to get to the intersection and knew what was facing them if they did a U-turn.
I think it’s a stretch to argue that a prudent driver could have interpreted the snow warnings being for someone else, given that it was snowing when they saw them. You really need to put it in the context of them making that drive during a snowstorm.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
the info in this artical :
“By then they didn’t have enough gas to get back to Grants Pass.”
Even with all that driving I think 2/3rds is too much to guess they had 2/3rds would get you back to GP a SABB isn’t a gas gusler……Just speculating…
855-JOE-sorry to shout, but I think 855 constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. I, too, find her narrative most interesting, and then to have you add THAT to it. I think your trying to drive us all ’round the bend! 🙂 …in a nice way, of course.
Orygungirl-
Thank you so much for what is a most interesting and thorough deductive analysis of the sign and map relationships, I am truly so very impressed! 🙂
p.s. I loved hearing about you making cookies for your
mom’s birthday! I hope she had a good birthday!
Even with all that driving I think 2/3rds is too much to guess they had 2/3rds would get you back to GP a SABB isn’t a gas gusle
Can you rephrase this? I’m not sure what you meant by it.
865- Reading the artical….I believe they had LESS then 2/3rd of a tank of gas……I was saying I thought you were being generous with a guess of 2/3rds
Correction, Halsey to Merlin. And it’s 158 miles according to MapQuest. The range of their Saab was either 413 miles or 460 miles on a full tank, depending on which 9-2 wagon they had.
http://tinyurl.com/ykph5g
http://tinyurl.com/yhmd2t
Those are EPA highway numbers. Even if you back it off a bit, presuming they’d filled up in Halsey they’d have had no less than 5/8 tank when they passed the gas station in Merlin. It closes at 10 p.m.; I know because I called and checked.
Paul – sorry, I can’t explain in detail what I’m talking about above. It’s not some big smoking gun, rather some support for Orygungirl’s analysis above of why they may have thought there were several passable roads up there rather than … zero passable roads.
859/Madeleine – if there is one thing you learn growing up in media, is that truth is an elusive thing, hard to pin down, and wildly open to interpretation. I share your sentiments and reactions.
And Madeleine,
I don’t believe I said it officially myself, but I am in full agreement and warmth with everyone else in saying that I am truly happy your husband is doing so well. I meant to say it many times myself.
And, by the way, I have a 2004 Volkswagen and before you get to the Siskiyous it actually [i]exceeds[/i] EPA rated fuel economy, which I attribute to the road being flat. I’m sure they got terrible fuel economy after Merlin, probably similar to my other car, a ’95 Volvo, which gets 25-27 on a flat road (EPA rates it at 26 mpg) but more like 12 or 13 mph on the hills of Seattle. Plus, of course, they ran the heater, which means running the engine.
866/Joe: You need an emoticon for angst and frustration. 🙂 I will, of course, stay tuned.
Can you say if the Sheriffs report will also bring whatever this is out into the daylight?
Paul (#867), what I learned is that truth is hard to pin down, but that facts are all around you just waiting to be picked up. The unfortunate thing about the media is that they have slipped inexorably toward the values of entertainment, for which facts are something to invent.
It’s a lot easier to start with the story and invent the facts to back it up, or to stick with a story after the facts have contradicted it, than it is to throw out a story and start all over again when it’s been invalidated by the facts.
A lot of people get really mad at people who change stories to accommodate previously unknown or unappreciated facts. People get invested in their favorite stories.
860 – /CW I agree with you about the fact that the weather conditions, with or without warning signs, should have been enough warning. I have been going nuts trying to figure out the “why’s” and this helped me have a bit more understanding.
Also, I mentioned before that I drive logging roads a lot just for fun, and on snowy mountain roads to my cabin where I live part of the time, knowing that each trip could result in sliding off the road or into another car, getting stuck, or worse, having to turn back, and I don’t ever remember seeing snow warning signs except on I-5 for the infamous Siskiyou Pass going into California. So, I totally agree that you make your decisions first and foremost on your immediate personal situation whether it be fuel, fatigue, traffic (or in some cases lack of it), or weather conditions. I reiterate my wishful thinking theory.
873 Your not at L of W now are you with this storm moving in??
mapper and others-Thank you for your compliments on the sign photos and my theory. I would put a happy face here but don’t know how.
mapper-I have been defensive about the snow warning signs and how they should have been heeded since, to me, their existence at all is so unusual. I have thought they were adequate and new signs not necessary.
The ODOT map is another story. And the lack of consistency of the road signs. This is something we can all work towards in the future along with supporting SAR. How quickly can a state move to change a map? And Rand-McNally, etc. Seem like that would be like moving mountains.
The Oregon map I had in one of my cars looks like it’s from at least the 70’s. Not a bad idea to keep one’s maps updated, huh?
873 –
I said, “knowing that each trip could result in sliding off the road or into another car, getting stuck, or worse, having to turn back,”
I didn’t really mean that turning back would be worse than sliding off the road. It’s just that I’m really one of those people who hates to backtrack, whether it’s on a road or a trail. Even admitting I’m wrong is hard!
orygungirl, we agree on a whole lot. I can’t say I drive logging roads just for the hell of it, but Ive been on a few of them and gotten my ass hopelessly lost. Thankfully not in the middle of the night in a snowstorm with the kids in the backseat, but that’s another can o’worms right?
I agree with you about wishful thinking in general but not as to the snow warnings themselves. I mean, there you are, driving up the road in the snow. I don’t care how wishful you are or what sort of a mental tunnel you’re in, you’re going to know, to paraphrase the beer commercial, This snow’s for us.
If there was wishful thinking involved, I’d guess it was much more likely connected to them going off on the logging road and thinking that they’d still wind up in Gold Beach, but only at a lower altitude along the way.
Of course, we’re speculating in a major way, and while speculation (hypothesis) is at the heart of discovery, people really have to be very careful not to let their speculations congeal in the minds as “truth.” Can we agree on that?
Ultimately, facts and logic are what cuts any real ice. Thus far, we know a bunch. It’s the “why” that has people wrapped around the axle, and short of a thorough and candid interview with someone who wants to straighten it out rather than just use Kati Kim as entertainment on one of the morning shows, I’m not sure how much we’ll be able to know about the “why.”
869 – Lisa, I’ve been remiss in reminding those who have passed along good wishes how much they have meant to me and my family. Thank you all again, last Saturday and Sunday were nightmare days for us, and yesterday they did some surgery on his leg in an unrelated matter (after the anesthesiologist went ballistic and refused to attend the surgery until he’d spoken with the cardiologist who had already cleared him). A wild ride this week. And of course, it’s been so *quiet* and *peaceful* over here at JD’s, NOT!
* FYI President is speaking now about Iraq War *
Orygungirl
I’m not privy to the inner workings of ODOT, but I have suggested some simple changes that could be done quickly. (a couple of meetings to come to a decision, a day or two to do the changes, another couple of meetings and refinings then a printing).
Some bigger changes, though not really, maybe the next printing.
It could be done in phases, or all at once. Its not a lot to ask.
Its not like moving mountains, that is for sure.
874 – RRR No, not at the lake, but it’s been snowing off and on at my house this evening. They are predicting 2-3 inches on the valley floor and I am about 2000 ft.
Last winter I rented out my house to friends who were remodeling and got to live at my cabin for three months. No water, but a new woodstove and lots of wood to burn. It was wonderful and there was a lot of snow. It forced me to get used to driving in the snow on a regular basis, to be more prepared, and to become a pretty good snow driver. I have an old 4-runner with studs all around which gives me some confidence, though no airbags in case I crash.
Mapper, your work on this has been fantastic, thanks for all the good explanations and the positive contacts you’ve made.
879- What would we do without Joe’s updates from the real world…. Thanks Joe 🙂
Thanks Madeleine.
But I have to admit…no contact. It’s all here buried in the joe duck pages. I work, a lot, and have some research I am finishing….I have been meaning to get all my suggestions together and put it on the sugggestions page, but have avoided it like its another peice of homework.
I guess, part of it is my suspicion they will read this blog and get their act together on their own
Thanks 🙂
881- Yes it is a wonderful place I grew up on that lake and stll go there, we are going up this week to go skiing…
In response to Auntie M, I think that the OSSA Report will help to fill out a fuller overall picture of the JoCo search efforts, so that all their efforts will be made public. And the public will be able to see all the work they did do. (As with the Missing Persons Report).
Although I know it is still controversial, it is not surprising that in such a case, reporters might zero in on the controversy surrounding what turned out to be a very significant lead that was not followed up on, including direct quotes about that issue. I don’t think it was actually their intention to make anyone look bad.
It is exactly the type of controversy they would look into and report on in most cases, and especially in very important cases.
I think it was meant to be more of an investigative critique of some of the central issues the search, and that controversy was part of it. But it is true that – that is only a slice of the overall picture, and once it is more complete, a fuller view will be visible to all. And I think it will show the overall effort in a better light than the one article which was oriented around the confusion of the search.
877 – CW said, “If there was wishful thinking involved, I’d guess it was much more likely connected to them going off on the logging road and thinking that they’d still wind up in Gold Beach, but only at a lower altitude along the way.”
This is why I think they went the 24 miles on the BLM road. Wishful thinking that they wouldn’t be going on the snowy road in the first place (their thinking might be “why would a road called Bear Camp be a main road or even go to the coast? Sounds like a road to a camp to me and not a through road.”) Perhaps they assumed this camp road on all the signs was surely at a higher altitude and that their coast route would be at a lower altitude, or they could find an alternate way to go that would avoid the snow. Lots of hope here whilst pushing on through the snow.
The 1st snow sign, at 33 miles has FS23 and distance to Agness and Gold Beach. Same for the 2nd sign at 28 miles. These two signs may have been placed by the county.
The 10 mile sign just as FS 23, no distances. Same for the 6 mile sign (after The Junction). These may be Forest Service signs.
The Junction sign equates Bear Camp Rd and FS23. I wonder if this is the first sign that uses the Bear Camp name?
There are some small signs on the Peavine detour pointing to the coast. I don’t see any signs that could interpreted as saying that BLM 34-8-36 is a through road to the coast. For example, I don’t see Gold Beach distance signs next to BLM markers.
The idea that the snow signs might refer to something other than the through route to the coast strikes me as lawyer talk, the search for a loophole.
If Kims were working from just the ODOT map, I imagine they were navigating by the distance signs, an number of which also mention FS23.
It is unclear, though, whether any other road names, such as BLM 34-8-36, Peavine or Chrome Ridge would have registered with them. Those signs are all small.
I don’t know how BLM does their numbering. Forest Service uses two digit numbers like 23 to designate main or through roads. Sometimes a number like 2300 is used. A number like 2308 is a branch off of 23.
paulj
RRR – maybe we already know each other. We’ll have to catch up on that sometime.
I have a friend who has been patiently waiting to finish a Cribbage game, so I’d best stop being a rude hostess and go beat ’em. I just glanced at my ‘puter and saw you were all here. See you later at bedtime. Looking forward to the report from Maggie.
mapper, check your mail.
888 – paulj said, “The Junction sign equates Bear Camp Rd and FS23. I wonder if this is the first sign that uses the Bear Camp name?” I looked through all those sign pictures and it was the only one I saw. I was originally looking for BLM 34-8-36 signs as someone had asked if there were any/many of any consistency so that they thought that was the Main Road.
“The idea that the snow signs might refer to something other than the through route to the coast strikes me as lawyer talk, the search for a loophole.” No, I don’t think so. If there were a recreation area off of the “main road” that was popular, it would merit a special warning sign, especially if it were heading to a higher elevation (like a ski area, for example).
“If Kims were working from just the ODOT map, I imagine they were navigating by the distance signs, an number of which also mention FS23. ” I only saw the NF23 on THE INTERSECTION sign which also had mileages, not on any other mileage sign. Did you see another with both?
Geez, I’ve got to go play Cribbage.
Don’t forget that when all was said and done, James and Kati concluded — after studying the map they had, which we understand was the one from ODOT — that the place where they were stranded was only four (4) miles from Galice. That has led me to believe that perhaps they kept driving that night because they thought they were going back toward the east, not further in the direction of the coast.
Orygungirl, I too have long wondered if they thought that the “Bear Camp” warnings simply didn’t apply to them, for many of the same reasons you have outlined. When I drafted that long list of “questions that the JDBlog members wish they could ask Kati,” that was very much on my mind.
Orygungirl
Its my opinion the map communicates to the reader that the main route(s) in that area will be easy to follow. They may not have been calcualting distances at all.
853RRR: I use my iPod-like unit to DJ through my sound system. Very handy. Tried snowboarding, I suck. Will be going back to skiing.
879Joe- Woo hoo!
I wanted to give myself a little time margin in case this took longer than anticipated, but since it didn’t, I’m early and am happy to say that the Portland Police Bureau’s Missing Persons Report is now posted. It is a .pdf file, so you may open it in programs such as Adobe Acrobat Reader or FoxIt.
Again, thanks to Joe Duck and Detective Mike Weinstein for getting this to me to post.
http://www.maggieweb.com/kimfamilyfiles.html
896- Very well done Maggie!!! Gold star for your chart!! 🙂
😀 ATTENTION 😀
The Portland Police Bureau’s report is up at the link below and in Maggie’s post above. Thanks to Det. Mike and Maggie!
http://www.maggieweb.com/kimfamilyfiles.html
And now I’ll need to catch up on all those posts. I’m woefully behind on my reading here, but my employer’s been getting their money’s worth this week, so it’s fair.
[861] — RRR — By then they didn’t have enough gas to get back to Grants Pass
“They thought they could spend the night and somebody would find them in the morning,” Lee said. “But then, when they woke up, it was snowing quite heavily. They were stuck.” .. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
The Kims were imprisoned by the snow. They didn’t have an option of driving anywhere, for days. By the time the snow had melted sufficiently to allow travel they had burned all their tires and used up the car’s remaining gasoline for heating. The only faint sign of possible help all that week occurred when they may have heard a helicopter but not did not see it. Little wonder at the end of the week James felt compelled to set out on foot seeking help. With the car’s gas and tires gone he probably felt that was his only actionable option.
if – if – if … A poster here speculated earlier today that had the Kims 1) preserved all their gas after they parked early Sunday a.m. and 2) not burned their 4 tires, they perhaps could have driven out later in the week after the snow had melted sufficiently.
900- I don’t want to debate “how much gas they had” I was just stating I thought CW was being generous saying they had 2/3rds of a tank as they started out on the roads…And I was siting where I got info that made me draw the conclusion that I thought CW was bing generous
“They soon realized they weren’t going to make it over the mountain and decided to turn around and drive back to a lower elevation to get out of the snow. Around the Bear Camp Viewpoint high in the mountains, the Kims sidetracked onto a spur road in an attempt to turn around and traveled about 2 miles, Hastings said.” .. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/04/BAGR2MP9383.DTL
Is this statement by Hastings just plain wrong? it doesn’t make sense given where the car ultimately ended up stranded.
The ODOT map does have a symbol for winter sports areas, a snow flake. Examples are the Gov’t Camp area near Mt Hood, and Mt Bachelor near Bend. The closest in this area is Mt Ashland, near Ashland. The big attractions in this area are the Rogue River and the coast, not some mountain top. The only spur road on the ODOT map is on the other side of the river, leading to a popular river side camp area.
One thing that I try to keep in mind when driving back roads is that the further I get, the harder it is to turn back. If I have successfully traversed a number of obstacles (mud holes, snow drifts, rocky patches), it is easier to tackle the next one, even if it looks tougher. It’s a matter of confidence, a reluctance to go back through the earlier obstacles, and a hope that the next one will be the last. In a sense I have a lot invested in getting this far, so why quit now.
That mentality may have played a role in this case. The attempt to hike out suggests that James was a confident and determined man.
Several years ago I was trying to get to a trail head in the California Sierras north of I80. We kept encountering late season snow. I was able to follow tracks through some drifts. Coming upon a larger one I tried to barrel my way through, and ended up high centered with 3 wheels spinning in the air. The weather was nice, and I had a car full of camping gear, so we were in no danger. Within a half hour a raised pickup came along from the other direction. They pulled us on through and went their way. I then had the task of gingerly working my way back through the drift and back to the main highway.
I’ve continued to poke around on backroads, but with a greater sense of caution. I also carry more gear that might help me get unstuck. I also remind myself that my ultimate goal is to get back home, not to get somewhere else.
However, I haven’t figured out how to mesh my preferred unstructured style of travel with the need to inform a relative of my travel plans. Maybe I should use my cell phone more, just to leave some evidence of my passage.
paulj
883-RRR There’s a real world ? 🙂
903/Kip – I just think it is impossible they made the summit, it doesn’t make any sense in conjunction with where the fork is and with Katies account that they backed down. That would be a long, long way to back up. Also, if snow was an issue at the fork, it would have been impossible to make the summit, a considerable amount of additional elevation. Lastly, I apologize that I cannot find the post, but am all but sure a local said BC/FS23 was ALREADY blocked before the summit at the time the Kims made their attempt in one of the previous pages posts
Reading the PPB report I am struck by the unwavering dedication and service – not to mention eloquent writing of Detective Mike.
Early on it would have been easy to say the case no longer involved PPB as all indications were the Kims were out of the PPB jurisdiction. Instead it appears that Det Mike worked long hours confirming, reconfirming, communicating and even traveling to Salem for a meeting regarding the case.
Det. Mike – Thank you so much for helping all of us here, the great education you have given us. Thank you for making sure the report posted was complete and accurate (and not disclosing personal info such as phone numbers).
Detective Mike, while no one wants to be in a situation to need your services – if they are ever in such a situation I can’t imagine having a better person to deal with than you.
PPB Report — well… at first blush this detailed official document doesn’t inspire much confidence when I see day of the week not matching calendar date .. Check out page 10/35 ….[these errors, admittedly very minor, had been brought to the originator’s attention beforehand]
And…. why is this document locked from word searching and from copying?
905- Nah its a fake there is no such thing as real life 🙂
Thank you Det. Mike, Maggie, and Joe. The three of you make one hell of a team. I’m in awe at how much effort seemed to transpire in such short time.
I have to get up and get some exercise after being riveted to my computer screen. I think I’ll go take a look at my family and say a quick prayer of thanks that they’re here with me, safe and warm. Bless the Kim Family, and their loved ones.
Det. W. — wow, that’s almost a book you wrote right there!
I’m struck, as I was while the case was unfolding, with the amount of information processed and the winnowing down to the kernel of data that mattered.
JoCoSAR — your most recent post was very moving, as were those that preceeded it. It is easy enough for us to second guess from the comfort of our study, but I recall quite vividly the five seconds in which my life went from being a foredeck man on a racing sailboat to a man overboard, trying to short-cut the recovery process to keep the boat moving, to being alone in the bloody cold and choppy water with the boat out of control, hundreds of yards away… time to start to think about survival vs. winning the race. So I got my nose rubbed in the nature of “the book” as the collection of nitwit ideas that have been known to work.
I can only imagine how frustrated and discouraged you and your team must have been and continue to be, but I hope that your collective response to this situation will be, “we’re concerned and capable public servants, but our skills and our procedures didn’t save this life. How can we improve them? How can we rededicate ourselves?”
I hazard that this would be a response worthy of James Kim.
In fact, I’m relying on you, because I’m coming out to see Joe this summer and I want to raft the river 🙂
RRR (#902), Dee and I communicated extensively about the gasoline level in their car. If they filled the tank in Halsey and their car was in otherwise sound condition (remember, it was a 2005 Saab, i.e., late model), they’d have had had between 5/8 and 2/3 of a tank as they rolled through Merlin. If you spend time with my posting #866 you will see that this is almost certainly accurate.
There is such a thing as “false precision.” Did they have 58% of a tank left? Did they have 69% of a tank left? You weren’t there nor was I. But, as I’ve noted, if you do the math you will find that 5/8 to 2/3 of a tank is a good range for what they had in Merlin.
In their car, with a 15.9 gallon tank, that’s 9.9 gallons to 10.6 gallons of gasoline. They had between 70 and 80 miles between Merlin and Gold Beach. We can presume that they didn’t expect to get lost. Even though I have deemed the Kims “negligent” on the night of Nov. 25, I don’t think there was anything imprudent about attempting a drive of 70-80 miles with 10 or 10-1/2 gallons of gas in the tank.
My belief that they were negligent is rooted in other issues. Not how much gas they had in the tank. I saw a lot of commentary on this site about the gas in their tank, so it’s something I paid attention to. Now, are we done?
humble apologies detective mike — if you dont know what I am referring to, I am sure using your detectivley qualities you could find it here.
Thanks again Maggie
912- I am done with the whole gas thing…I understand you have done the “math” ….My statement was not to debate…it was just a statement of MY OPINION I was done when I posted to Kip’s post…..Your the one that brought it back up
Your opinion? Based on what facts?
907 – Appreciate your kinds words. It’s always my goal to be as thorough, objective and professional as possible.
908 – That being said, I was quite embarrassed when I realized the very obvious, albeit explicable error regarding the Wednesday reference to the 28th at the beginning of the narrative (which, in November, was obviously the 29th, the date the Missing Persons report was filed in San Fran). Errors, even such as this, are unacceptable to me. What can I say, it slipped by me (yes, I knew about it, but only after the report had been officially submitted, and we are not ever permitted to change an original report). Wish I had caught it.
Tharwood – Thanks for the earlier posts about Not Feeding the Trolls – another great piece of education from this Blog 🙂
And math isn’t “math.” Math is what the Greeks gave us. Math is math. Math is facts. Do you have a problem with facts?
915- I am done
RRR – I’m still laughing about your ipod run over by the snowboard (I think you could make a campfire song about that one).
Did you see Joe’s latest blog today and the stock he traded off??
Great diversion tactics Angela!
So, RRR, glad to hear you had a good day on the slopes. You know not too long ago I got some of the best advice I’ve ever had while on the slopes. I’d like to share it with you. A narly boarder guy flew past me and yelled this: “If you don’t engage, they go away.” Imagine that!
920- No I am sorry I didn’t see Joe’s blog……
921- Yes nice advice……
Everyone, I know I usually maintain a policy of commenting only on my personal involvement in this case, but I’d like to add a brief word about the upcoming OSSA report.
I just wanted to share that I have been extremely impressed with the tenacity, thoroughness, critical thought and professionalism of each and every investigator who has contacted me regarding the official investigation. I know everyone here has been waiting, mostly patiently, for this report. I do not know the content of the report (nor do I know the timeline, for anyone who is already typing madly), but I just wanted everyone to know these dedicated folks have been working long hours, day and night, and sound very committed to getting it right the first time around, as it was described to me this evening.
I urge your continued patience, and I believe you will appreciate what I expect will be the results of a very thorough, professional investigation, which will hopefully address as many of your questions and concerns as possible. Just my $.02.
920- It was actually my car that ran over my iPOD I tossed it in the front seat when I was putting my gear away and when I opened the door it fell out, I got just a little ways down and noticed it was missing, there is not a scratch on my iPOD from the whole thing the ear buds on the other hand are another story….
Mike W., as I look through the report, it seems reasonably clear that the Hotel Lucia credit card information was peripheral at most.
The report shows that the hotel had confirmed that they were guests on Nov. 24. A friend of the Kims, Grace Pugh, is said to have informed you that the Kims had asked for recommendations about where to stay in the way back. According to your file, she recalled that she might have mentioned Gold Beach, but couldn’t be certain.
Your report shows that you had received an e-mail at 3 p.m. on Nov. 30th from James Kim’s sister, telling you that they had made reservations at Tu Tu Tun Lodge. That e-mail gave the details of three phone calls the Kims had made to the lodge.
You followed up on that e-mail with a call to Tu Tu Tun. The employee who the Kims had spoken to was out, and you got the home phone number. In the meantime, Mrs. Kim’s sister e-mailed you again to say that she had spoken with that employee to clarify a point of detail.
After you had been given all of this information, you called Hotel Lucia and asked for credit card and phone information. For what purpose? You’d already been given the information about Tu Tu Tun Lodge. For what purpose did you need their credit card information and cellphone information?
Your report stated that you told the Hotel Lucia that you needed the information because lives were at risk. Tell us how the Hotel Lucia’s providing what you wanted would have reduced any risk, given that you already knew where the Kims were headed on Nov. 25.
From what I can see in the documents, the hotel acted appropriately. Please respond.
RRR – Go to Joe’s Home page and read his post on the iphone – the end is classic Joe. Then the first post I read on the page was your ipod experience. Talk about rubbing it in 🙂
I can understand that, in the heat of the moment, you wanted any information you could get. But in the cold light of day, I don’t understand why you went out of your way to single out the Hotel Lucia for not providing information that you never needed anyway. If it was so important, why didn’t you pull the levers on the following day that police can pull if they truly need a subpoena?
Det Mike – you call this patiently waiting?? I think we’ve all gone nuts (at least I’m pretty sure I have 🙂
Re: 923 That’s good to know, Det. Mike. Thank you.
Have to tell you everytime I call you that, I feel like I ‘m a second grader at a “Just Say No” assembly!
925 – As you know, I cannot comment on the specifics of this investigation at this time, which does not allow me to address your very specific questions. And with all due respect, I do not post here to be interviewed by the media (current or former).
ADK 😆
Reading further: At approximately 2100 hours, I received e-mail from EVA KIM, detailing information about JAMES and KATIE KIM’s financial accounts, including credit card and bank account information. … The specific information provided in the e-mail was determined to already have been provided to the SFPD, and was currently being used in the investigation
This is remarkable. A different police department already had their financial information. But you and the Portland Oregonian fingered the Hotel Lucia for — what, again? I’m really wondering why you made a point of blackening the hotel’s reputation for not providing information that you and others already had.
Please explain.
Mike W., you should realize that your own records potentially open up you and your department to a defamation action by the Hotel Lucia. I advise your department to issue an apology for having damaged their business by issuing misleading statements. If the president of the United States could go on television tonight and admit his mistakes, then you can admit yours.
Mike W., I’ll have plenty more to say about this in my own narrative. Your statement in #930 about not discussing the specifics of an investigation is disingenous in the extreme. You have been posting on this site for several days discussing the specifics of the investigation.
I can generally answer your question by say a police report is a factual account of investigative efforts. It does not show bias or explain why things were done, but it sometimes points out critical information to a particular investigation. It is not an argument, and it does not always “make sense” to someone not intimately involved in that particular investigation.
Again, I won’t comment specifically on the details of this case. Suffice it to say whatever transpired during the course of investigation was deemed to be necessary and timely, as reflected in that report.
Thus the reason why police reports are never allowed as evidence in a court trial – and the LE members who wrote them provide testimony, under oath, to explain things during direct or cross-examination, not unlike your line of questioning.
Another thing to consider, if you choose, people often have numerous credit cards or financial accounts.
Mr. Wilson – Thank you for your concerns. If you’d like to find a debate, you’ll need to look elsewhere, as it won’t be with me.
Charles you are out of line here and I don’t like the inquisitional tone you are taking with several people here.
Change the tone or leave. You’ve established an entire site to discuss this. That’s fine, use that forum to discuss this on your terms.
Detective Weinstein has been extremely careful to comment only as appropriate both here and in my phone conversations with him to try to obtain this information. The Portland Police Department has been extremely professional, courteous, and aboveboard.
Charles, as you stated yourself, truth is a defense in a defamation action. The hotel didn’t provide the credit card info. That’s a fact. And, a defamation action requires a showing of damages. The hotel will have to show that their business declined because of the defamation. Difficult to prove. You certainly don’t have that information, so stop threatening lawsuit when you don’t have enough information.
(Plus, there are plenty of people who see the protection of the credit card information as a GOOD thing, which would encourage people to stay at the hotel.)
Frankly I think you are just trying to stop conversations over here that aren’t happening on your website.
Thank you, Joe. Much appreciated.
937- *APPLAUSE*
Joe – You’r the greatest!
937 – I’m not caught up, but had to sneak a peek ahead, and add my “thank you” Joe for making this such a good place to be and saying what needs to be said. Joe has spoken 🙂
Hey Maggie,
THANKS so much for all the scanning, re-scanning and providing the website for the police report.
What Angela said. To both of you.
joeduck, I’ll go. The fact remains that Detective Weinstein asked for information he already had, and when the hotel exercised its legal right to keep that information confidential, he made a conscious effort to degrade that hotel’s business. It’s unethical, and you can be certain that his supervisors will be hearing about it.
I’ll throw this in real quick and then go back to getting caught up (been a busy 24 hours here…). I appreciate all the thanks, but it’s really been my pleasure. Where else but here at Joe’s blog would most of us get any opportunity to actually “speak” to so many different people related to a story that has tugged at our hearts and minds so powerfully? The idea that someone like Joe lets us hang out here, and folks like Detective Mike care to come here and shed their light – interaction and input that you just can’t get in even the best newspaper article – as we try to sort through all the many facets of this case and do what we can to help “next time,” I think this is just neat as heck, and I just happened to have a scanner and a website, so I nominated myself 🙂
Now I need to try to stop skipping ahead and go catch up…
Sooooooooooooooooo how is everyone’s weather…..we are expecting snow tonight……
Good one RRR! We’ve got a little snow here in Talent but the kids are hoping for a lot more by tomorrow.
948- Yes I would guess they are hoping for a snow day….
945/Charles: You and Dee built your own sandbox ostensibly because you don’t like the tone and other elements here, but you have been a consistent presence HERE from the 1st moment your site went up. Your extremely condescending & superior tone irritates at best, and angers at worst. I tried to be polite today, but tonight has just been to much. GO PLAY IN YOUR OWN SANDBOX ! I think that is why you built it, isn’t it?
Thank you Joe, for stepping in.
Hey, no fair you two. Send some out here to the east coast.
Three days ago it was 75 degrees here. And we haven’t had a bit of the white stuff.
75 degrees???…and you are fishing for sympathy ?? 🙂
pssst, Paul… their site’s forum isn’t getting much attention.
sorry personally I am a snow hog an I won’t share 🙂 More snow more playground for me!
946/Maggie: I’d like to piggybag on Maggies comments and offer what an incredible thing it has been, all the noteworthy people who have deemed it worthwhile to stop at Joe’s Cafe and put their two cents worth in. It’s a testament to Joe that Det. Mike, Sara R, RRR, John J, Kati dad, Brian…when this all started, I never dreamed all those folks would be stopping by.
955- I like the name “Joe’s Cafe”….however the bar ideal has its appeal too.. 🙂
Anyone had Tubaca?? (sp?) Tired it for the first time last night….WOW
953/Gayle: I was going to point that out, but I was trying not to be catty, and I can’t make that cool kitty that Maggie makes.
RRR, is that some kind of alchoholic beverage? You were talking about Joe’s Bar, so I’m assuming? Never heard of it, though.
Paul, this one? =^..^= I’m at about post 800 now…
Its a tequila….vanilla flavored…Its smoooooooooooth..I had never heard of it too until some friends mentioned it was their drink of choice.
The race is on….Who is in the lead … will it be Maggie to reach the end… Or Paul…… any bets…..
Was it Tuaca? Tuaca is from Italy with a wonderul vanilla flavor – great in coffee!
Yeah that would be it! that is what the bartender said too….
Yumm – haven’t had Tuaca in quite awhile! Joe, next rounds on me 🙂
Re: 961 Sorry Paul, but, I’m going with Maggie. She’s proven her perseverance what with the report and all.
Sounds good, RRR. I’ll have to try it. A good friend and my hubby like “Tres Generaciones”, or Three Generations Tequila. It’s expensive, but, it packs a whollop.
I need to get some sleep. You all have a good night.
G-Nite Adirondacker!
Well all I am not long for this world either…..gotta go warm up and relax some muscles in the hot tub….Catch you all tomorrow!
Hey, everyone is leaving and I don’t even know what race I am in. What is the race thing about? Goodnight ADK, Goodnight RRR.
I’m still checking in Paul – was hoping for 1000 posts to start a new page late tonight. That seems to work better than trying to set them up in the middle of the day when there are more comments.
968 – Paul, I think they thought we were racing, but I’m still reading comments you must have written much earlier in the day.
970 – And so I think that means you won the race!
Maggie / Where are you now?
Joe /Thanks for interceding earlier, I was beginning to feel like I was being lectured at by an all-knowing professor. I defend the right of all voices to be heard, but pummeling people is another matter altogether. You have good judgement about knowing when that line is crossed.
Maybe some lurkers will jump in and liven things up…or Maggie will get caught up and we’ll ruminate about the Orygun girls interesting theory and Joe’s even more interesting appendix to her theory….somehow we’ll get you those 1000 posts Joe.
Hey, I have one for Joe’s Bar for all you Tea drinkers! Earl Grey, Grand Monet, and Amareto!
YUM!
Well better go get my homework done incase there is school tomorow (murpheys law, if I do it…. SNOW if I don’t SCHOOL!)
Well,here in PDX the best we can hope for is a giant skating rink, our chance for meaningful snow came and went this morning. I swear snowfall is inversely correlated with the amount of hype you get from your local TV forecaster…the bigger the deal they make of it, the less likely it is to happen.
Wow! Orygun’s post 854 is quite the post. I’d been inclined to kind of think the same for some of the same reasons (like seeing BLM signs all along and that the BLM road continues to the right), but the way you put that all together and with the pictures is really well done and really does make me almost feel as if I’m on that road and how the decisions could have logically gone. Very, very cool, Orygun, how you laid that out!
New adopted words so far (I only just finished 859) include ADK’s Frankinpines and Madeleine’s -30-
You forgot Oregon pinstriping…or maybe that is still to come.
925 – Charles, you are way off base, and presumptuous to be trying to “interview” principals in this case on this site for your own benefit. Your style of picking out details you don’t understand and then accusing people of some nefarious motive or misdeed is not only obnoxious, but unprofessional, if you are a journalist. That is not investigating.
It is obvious that you do not understand the methods of cross checking used during an investigation. It would be important to know if there were any OTHER contact, credit card or cellular numbers given by the Kims at their last known location, and to learn what, if any activity, was charged to the cards the investigator may have known about. You don’t just take the list the family found by scurrying around looking in someone’s home during an emergency and say “Okay, we have all we need, no reason to look for more or cross check these”.
A case or conclusion is built by layer facts over facts, without jumping to conclusions. I’ve probably read several thousand police reports, and this one was exactly what I would have expected it to be, with the appropriate level of detail for this portion of the process. As Detective Weinstein explained, it is not intended to show the thinking process behind each detail, just what was done. Perhaps you think that this should have been 200 pages, with every nuance and thought outlined for your benefit. LE officers need time to actually investigate, not write explanations for people who don’t understand the process. The motivation and process will be explained in detail in court, should a trial ensue.
Detective Weinstein was not defaming a hotel by reporting that they preferred not to share their information without a subpoena due to liability concerns, he was reporting this stage of the investigation as it took place.
Your ducking in and out of this site yelling, in so many words, “Aha, gotcha!”, is not only distracting but nonproductive. If you want to assert what Kati and James Kim saw and felt based upon assumptions, and accuse Detective Weinstein of maliciously targeting the hotel, please keep it on your site and don’t contaminate this discussion with your unfounded assumptions. While Joe has certainly welcomed all viewpoints here and been most generous in allowing free discussion, you have crossed the line by continually touting your own site and by being unable to provide anything but intermittent civil discussion.
977 – Yes, let’s add it to the list like I added it to my Subaru wagon up in a different forest, while lost.
978 – Wow I stopped back in a the correct moment – well said, Madeleine… to each of your thoughts.
978 – Joe, my apologies for jumping in, I had skimmed what I had missed earlier on this page and had not seen your recent admonishment addressing this situation.
978/Madeleine: Applause ! – Joe sent him back to his sandbox in case you missed it, but he’s surely still lurking.
980-Hi Detective, nice of you to stop in. We feel badly about the cavalier treatment you received at the hands of the party in question earlier tonight. Apologies.
978 – Det. Mike, thanks. Very interesting report, to say the least, and I found it clear, concise and professional.
982 – Thanks, Paul. You of all people have had much patience with that participant all along, but I see it finally wore thin, as mine did awhile ago. Keeping quiet is not my forte, as you may have noted.
His tone with the detective tonight was totally unacceptable…badgering at best, abusive at worst. They have all these criticisms they lob at this site, and then they camp out here! How hypocritical is that!
Nothing wrong with not keeping quiet, nothing at all, at least everyone knows where you stand…more power to you.
Whew – all caught up.
Can you believe I’ve still only gotten to read snippets of the actual report itself? What I have read though, as others have said, is so well written and gives so much insight into what goes on behind the scenes. Definitely not as easy as they make it all look on TV.
I am not sure if our good Detective is still with us. I am sure he would want to thank you, Maggie, for such an outstanding job!!!
Thank you, Paul. Like I said, it really was a pleasure. And Det Mike did all the real hard work.
983 – Thanks, Paul. And I’m sure you can all figure that I’m fairly thick-skinned after having dealt with all sorts of people – and usually face to face. Most people who wish to criticize that harshly are not anonymous, either. (Not at all a comment regarding the appropriateness and safety of posting anonymously onine, just seems to be quite a lot of talk without anything constructive added, as this forum is intended, and for which, it has value.)
984 – Thanks, also, Madeleine – I try.
Excellent comment work folks! I’m planning to launch a new page after midnight – feel free to keep posting, or go to bed, or whatever!
Thank you, Joe 🙂
987 – Maggie, your kind words are always appreciated. Must tend to my little one who’s awake again – Have a good night all.
Maggie doesn’t usually go to bed before 3 I hear. 😛
Joe, I think I’m going to call it a night when you put your warning up at midnight….another sleep deprived day tomorrow regardless.
Well, it’s midnight now, and my goose is cooked, so Paul, it will be an “early” night 🙂 Night all. Thank you for a new page that I’ll see in the morning, Joe.
…but were not to 1000 yet 🙂
Goodnight to all! Ha – with 3 comments to go I can take this over the top by just talking to myself if needed!
Ha! Make that ONE comment to go….
😀 ATTENTION 😀
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Hey, that worked out swell!
Just wanted to update all of you. There was a somewhat tense exchange between Myself and JOCOSAR the other night. You may have seen that we both agreed that a face to face would be good for us emotionally. Phil who posts here facilitated that meeting this evening and it was very beneficial.
When the OSSA report comes out, (if) then you will certainly have a lot of additional insight to chew on.
I would like to say that if by the time it goes through the filtering process and is compiled into the report I hope it is written as I stated it. We all know that when a story is told it can be related differently than it was originally stated.
JOCOSAR and I made a point to allow each other to completely state our thoughts and then discussed and clarified.
Our recollection of all of our interactions were not exactly the same so I guesss we may have to agree to disagree.
I do know that I met with an intelligent and engaging woman who is so torn and devastated by all this that she is physically ill.
I do feel that this lady has been left swinging at the end of a rope and that sucks. I don’t beleive she was the one in charge of all the logistics of the search so maybe some people should ease up on her. There were a lot of other players in the game.
I still say that my early interaction with her was not very good but after visiting with her I maybe have a better understanding of where her state of mind was.
I will come back after the report is out and advise you if I feel that my statements were portrayed as given to the investigators.
Sorry for the long post but if you knew me you would think this is short.
John
Well , I won at Cribbage tonight, 4 of 7 games.
Then came back and caught up from this morning. Maggie, I don’t know how you get through the posts so fast.
Thank you for the compliment up there.
I’m going to exert a little self-control and not open that PPB file tonight. Time to get my beauty sleep. G’night!
Signage.
I think I would interpret those bright yellow signs about snow blockage to relate to “The Road” which in this case means: A series of roads of various official and unofficial designations leading to the coast.
However, I don’t think a sign of ‘may be blocked by snow 28 miles ahead’ would be particularly daunting. I would continue onward seeing that message. Now add to it something about ‘No motorist services’ or ‘No food, fuel or lodging’ and you might get some different reactions particularly if traveling with kids in the car.
What sign is appropriate for the ‘Fateful Intersection’?
Narrow, uninviting and climbing road on the left is proper roadway to the coast, while wider and more inviting and descending roadway to the right is a logging road spur leading nowhere? Should there be an addendum to the sign about ‘If trying to get to a lower elevation in hopes of being “below the snow line” you ain’t gonna make it on this road’?
Irrespective of fuel worries or eventual “snow blockage” concerns, what should have been done? Stop near that intersection and await daylight and passing traffic? Stop near that intersection and take coastal route in daylight if snow is not too deep?
Taking a descending route to get below the snow line seems like a good idea, but for two facts: the road lead to nowhere and it did not lead below the snow lline. It simply caused them to get stuck in the snow off in the middle of nowhere rather than to get stuck in the snow along a route on which there MIGHT have been some sort of traffic eventually.
They were already on a rather rough road in a remote area and there simply was not going to be a sign that said “this road off to the right leads to nowhere” since just about all the roads in the area lead off to nowhere.
Duplicate information.
In this search the request for credit card and phone information from the hotel appears to be a request for information that in fact had already been given to the “originating agency” (SFPD).
Yes. Ofcourse. How many times do you have to enter onto the form the same information over and over. No matter what form it is. How many times do you have to go through the identification routine when dealing with a credit card company over some billing error? There is duplication. Some of the information may not have been in fact known to Portland at the time, some might. It would still have been useful, but the hotel felt privacy laws were a consideration too. Properly so to some, improperly so to others.
Detours.
Has anyone added up the various categories and numbers of detours and spurs that are available on this ‘coastal route commonly known as Bear Camp Rd’.
Some suggested categories:
Turnoffs that appear inviting.
Turnoffs that appear to be the proper road.
Turnoffs that appear to be daunting and remote.
I certainly think that searching all the spurs may have been senseless but searching this particular spur road should have been a fairly high priority because of its known history as a common mistake in the area.
Duplicate information
The housekeeper who initiated the Missing Persons report may have had a list of all credit cards but the hotel might have been able to provide ‘credit card in use’. It might have been “better” information, it might not have been.
Also ofcourse the various agencies may not have had all the information. When people started talking about the last known cell phone use they didn’t repeat the cell phone number.
So even if the detective was asking for duplicate information, he may not have known it.
John James, with all due respect, from the comments on this board I’ve seen a great reluctance to acknowledge error. If this keeps up, no one will be responsible for much of anything. How can anyone seriously expect to learn anything from this if everyone agrees that no one was at fault?
People need to have the courage to admit their mistakes.
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